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And do you like the new header? Totally rocks! Created by the awesome Retro Zombie Jeremy - contact him if you'd like an interactive header as well. You the man, Jeremy! Mark Koopmans is hosting his annual Got Green? Blog O’ Hop on March 15. Scattergun Scribblings is hosting the Overcoming Adversity Blogfest February 4-5. Entries will be compiled into a book and the proceeds will go to funding college for his son, Andrew, who has cerebral palsy. SA Larson created this writer’s creed. See her site to sign up and get your badge. Hilde McQueen’s latest book is out, Where the Four Winds Collide. Congratulations, Hildie! “It's stupid to fall for your brother's ex. It's even worse to enlist another's help to win the ex over…” Find Becca Ann on Facebook Find her book on Goodreads and purchase the eBook or paperback at Amazon. And don’t forget to save the date for my next blogfest, March 18 – to be announced next month! Mel has worked so long and hard on this book, and it’s finally available! ML Chesley. website. You can also follow her blog or on Facebook. Purchase Adversarius Amazon or Smashwords. Congratulations, Mel!!! Movie Trivia Answers? This is Spinal Tap Hosted by the awesome LG Keltner, we are to post about our writing beginnings. Want to know how CassaStar began? There were many influences. I was always a Star Trek fan. Star Wars came along and redefined movies and space operas. I enjoyed the likes of Bradbury and Heinlein. And then, a single image for an upcoming TV series caught my attention: Frank Frazetta’s artwork for the series Battlestar Galactica. What ignited my imagination was the setting – a rocky planet and a downed ship. The characters, stranded and ready to defend themselves, also caught my attention. (And in the central character, you can probably see the beginnings of Byron.) I imagined two people, a pilot and a navigator, their fighter shot down on a rocky planet and forced to make a sacrifice. That scene, written when I was a teen, was the only part of the original story to survive. (And the scene changed some during the rewrite.) But that image ignited the story behind CassaStar, which eventually became my first published book. Now it’s an Amazon Best Seller and has spawned two sequels. A picture really is worth a thousand words! Excited about the new books and blogfests? Are you picking up Adversarius? Get any of the movie trivia right? And how did your writing begin? Don’t forget to visit M. Pax’s Spacedock 19! 149 comments: You had some great influences there. Thanks for participating in my blogfest! And your new header is awesome! I enjoyed learning about the motivation for CassaStar! Your new header looks great Alex! Jeremy did a terrific job. Congrats to the authors, and I'll have to check out some of these blogfests. Julie Wow, your new header caught my attention right away - it's awesome! Nice to find out where it all started. The new header is very eye catching - well done Jeremy! I missed the last Got Green? blog hop, so I'll be taking part this time. Should be a blast! Thanks for the shout out! Love the header! And yes, Frazetta is the man. Mmm... I started writing "poetry" (i.e. silly long rhymes) when I was seven or eight. First novel started when a character walked into my head while I was reading. I was thirteen. :-D It's amazing that one picture can inspire so much, and that in itself is inspiring. :) Cool new header! Lots of great blog fests and links today. Jeremy is so talented! I'll hit M. Pax soon. I'm not surprised to see Battlestar Galactica being a major influence for Casastar. :) Great to hear the beginnings of Cassastar! I think pictures can be really inspiring, too...I've frequently wished I could draw instead of write. :) I love the header! I can see how that picture would inspire you. Neat beginning! This is Spinal Tap is so awesome. Thanks for the heads up about the Overcoming Adversity blogfest. Star Trek was the thing that inspired me to create stories as well :) Love that echo of Battlestar G in your story - awesome! LG, thanks for hosting! Nick, you're welcome. Ciara, you can probably see that really easily! Hey there! I love your new header. When it's time for a new look I think I'll contact Jeremy too! I'll treat myself when I hit a certain number of page views! Your new header is AWESOME!!!!!!!! Really, really, really cool. It feels like a videogame in here now! Congratulations to Mel and all the authors with new books. And Alex, nice to hear about your inspiration. I love hearing how books began. Love the new header! And Frazetta has inspired a lot of folks, I think. You're in great company there. Love the awesome header! Beautiful work, Jeremy. Enjoyed your interview over at Spacedock 19 with Mary. Yes, please discuss cloning next. :) Congrats on the new releases, Hilde, Becca, and Mel. Frazetta is head and shoulders above everyone else when it comes to those sorts of paintings. Like the new look! I love that you've had the story all these years and finally acted on it to such success. Very inspiring for another late starter. Though only in my actual writing. My story premises are much more recent. I should've known A Fish Called Wanda. I love that movie! And I love Frank Frazetta. He's one of the few artists I used to try to emulate. I'm loving Frazetta's picture. It's mezmerizing. I think it's awesome, too, that you wrote a scene as a teen, with the picture as your inspiration for CS, Alex. Very cool. Thanks as always for all the tasty bites of info. I'll be checking out the blogfests. xoRobyn As always-- great information. The new header looks fantastic. I also liked Galactica. Never missed it. I think it was movies who inspired me to start writing too. Movies and way too much time alone. Jolie, he does a great job. Cathy, like a videogame - funny! Laura, cloning is on the list. Donna, it's never too late. Robyn, that scene was just so powerful. Great Battlestar Galactica picture! This series is one of my favourites. Interesting to know how Cassastar came about. Great post. Yvonne., I absolutely LOVE your new header. Wow. Cool. And the fact that that teaser picture for Battlestar Galactica was the impetus for CassaStar is fascinating. So amazing how inspiration strikes. And I am dying to read How I Fell for the Funny Fat Girl. So many books, so little time... Whoa! That header is totally awesome! Love to hear how CassaStar came into being. Oh, hey, did you know that Indie Life thing I did today was inspired by you? Not my thing in it, but the people that put that together were inspired by you. Love the new header, Alex! I'm heading over to Spacedock 19 now. :) Wow! lots of news! I enjoyed reading about the beginnings of your first book. Thanks for sharing. :) How cool that an image got you started! It's one of my favorites, too. Sadly, I missed the signup for this blogfest, but I have other surprises in store for today. :) Flashy new header! And interesting to find out your novels were inspired by that artwork. Definitely like the new banner for your blog and also some great info and links. Going to check them out! Now I REALLY want to read Adversarius. I shall have to keep my eyes out for this one. Thank you for sharing the story behind part of CassaStar, I love hearing back stories behind books! Zoltan, it was a favorite of mine. She'll, just one image started it all... Andrew, I did! David, sorry you missed it. Love the header! Inspiration is everywhere if we are just alert and open to it. That is a really cool image - I can see why it inspired your writing! Frank Frazetta is an amazing artist. I'm going to his Website now and spend some time just looking at his images. And good luck to all the writers and their new releases! 2013 is going to be a great year! Love the pic and the story behind CassaStar! Pictures are inspiring. I'm saving the date for your fest and Mark's. And my writing started with the story of a dancing hat . . .and then another about a pencil that escaped from school. (elementary school stories influenced by my love of tap dancing movies, and my strong dislike of school) Congrats to ML! Header is awesome :) And that picture is awesome; definitely inspirational... hehee, so punny. Congrats on all the books! A picture is worth a thousand words indeed. Will read your guest post and thanks for keeping us informed. I love the new header! Thanks for the news. I'm totally gonna check out Nick's blogfest, and I can't wait to read REASONS. Al, I do like your new header. Jeremy was done a very, very appropriate job. It evokes a very CassaNinja feel. I am curious about your blogfest, and Mary Pax, Nicki Elson and I will be announcing one for March 1 this Friday, too. As for the beginnings of CassaStar, I love that a picture was literally worth a thousand words. And I was also interested to know that the first scene was written in your adolescence! I like that detail very much, the idea of an entire world pulsing with promise since then. That BSG picture is fantastic. Love the new header. Signed up for Nick's blogfest. I can see Byron in that picture! I'm getting reallly frustrated. Choosing to read "CassaStar" to my kids was a wrong move. I read to them at bedtime, and at best get a chapter in before they zonk. Sometimes I sneak and read ahead...but don't tell them! As an old school BSG fan, I'm amazed that I've never seen that picture before....very cool! I always find it very interesting how just one spark can ignite something bigger. Better writing through chemistry :) Nice header, Jeremy! I'm keeping away from blogfests until April--at least that's my plan. My last couple of weeks with illness and holidays have already set me a year behind in blogging. Please don't come up with any blogfests I can't refuse! Lee Tossing It Out I do love your new header! It amazes me how much things happen every week. I feel so left behind. So awesome to hear the story behind that! I've always wondered. Can't wait for your blogfest announcement :) You new header rocks. Love the flash, Alex. Fits with your uniqueness! Great looking header. It's good to hear how it all began for you too. What a fun new header! Great new header! and thanks for all the updates. Best :) Lots of stuff going on. Always good to come over here to catch up, and find out yet another interesting fact. Although I'm an avid Bradbury reader (and a couple of Heinlein), and loved BG, I write totally different stuff. Thank goodness for authors like you who feed my addiction to that genre. Love the new header! Great job, Jeremy. That is cool that BSG inspired you, and that you wrote the first scene as a teen! Yes I like your new header! Jeremy is really good at creating headers that capture the tone of the blog. SO techi... so interesting, such fun! Both you and your header. The cool factor on that banner is very high! One of my buddies approach to painting mini's is inspired by Frazetta. Nice new banner! I love the golden-brown color scheme. I've been writing since I was 4 years old, literally as long as I could write. It's just what I've always done, no special inspiration to have started. I love the new header, Alex! I've been to Spacedock 19 - I'm on my way:) Cool new header and interesting how one picture can spark an entire series! Stephen, you could get lost at that site... Tyrean, a dancing hat! That is definitely original. Suze, excited to hear about your blogfest! Yes, there was a really crappy first draft of CassaStar written in my teen years, all stemming from that one scene. Mark, I think the black and white version was in the old TV Guide magazine. Lee, you might not be able to refuse mine... Clarissa, it amazes me as well. Joylene, thank you! ML, I'm trying. Carrie-Anne, that's a long time... Off to visit M-Pax! Liked to BG artwork :). Hadn't seen it before. Great seeing your inspiration for the start of the Cassa series. Cool backstory on your book, Alex! And congrats to all the writers in today's post - there's a lot of exciting news swirling about the blogosphere. Well, it was ST:TNG for me when I was in middle school, though I'd watched the original series and the original Battlestar Galactica in reruns with my dad. I also used to page through my dad's Frank Frazetta art book (though I think there was stuff in there young kids weren't supposed to see). Very cool that your scene survived all those years (and revisions), Alex. ML's cover looks awesome! It was fun and enlightening to talk to you Alex. Glad you visited the Spacedock. Your clones are welcome any time. Love the new header! And Congrats to ML! That picture is very inspiring. I loved BSG - the original and the remake. I thought something looked different over here ;) Thanks for the mention, too! You rock! And I think the only images that have inspired me are ones of hot guys without their shirts on. That counts, right? :) Congratulations! Your new header is an inspiring eye-catcher. A picture really is worth a thousand words! I work together with people from different countries and I can't count how often we use pictures. M Pepper, I bet there was a lot you shouldn't have seen! Oh well. Emily, the only one that did. Mary, thanks for having me. Becca, you are welcome! Thanks for the information; you are like the Blogger Times:D I got my Writer's Creed badge, and am off to visit the Beginnings Blogfest, M. Pax, and all the other goodies you have lined up for us. ooh! Fancy new header is fancy! Blinking lights and everything! Love the new header. I started writing back in the dark ages to amuse my friends. It was supposed to be a novel but everyone wanted to be a character, and everyone wanted their character to do this and that, so it ended up being a sprawling continuing story that was still going when my dad got transferred during my senior year (oh, the agony of it all) and we had to move. Yes, exquisite headboard, love the dynamic light shows. I love what Jeremy did for your blog header. Very cool--much like Jeremy himself. I like the sound of Adversarius and the hero's code of honor. I'll be checking that out for sure! Hope your week is going well, Alex! Blessings, my friend. The header is really neat! I loved the old Battlestar. And had such a crush on Richard Hatch. Alex, I did like how the header came out as I described it as... Space battle in the Matrix... thank you for letting me be creative. So many things going on today, I enjoyed the Battlestar... I as a kid had a cardboard Viper, that I sent in for from the back of cereal box... oh the memories. Great Day! Jeremy The new header is awesome! I'm already signed up for Nick's blogfest, but I'll have to pass on Mark's for a very good reason. I'll be here! :D Congratulations to Hildie, Becca Ann, and M.L.! I'm off to visit M. Pax now. :) So interesting hearing your inspiration! Finally some trivia I knew (well 2 questions anyway). Not a big sci/fi fan, but I loved Battlestar Galacticia (the original TV) I do like the new header! Thanks for all the news and notes. Appreciate you keeping us in the loop. I know I'd totally be out of that loop otherwise! :) I love the header! I see animated pirate ships in my future. :D Thanks for the shout out, Alex! And my writing started after I created Kayta for a D&D game. Geek to the core! XD My first writing experience was when I was 8, but my real writing experience was probably when I joined my current writing group 10 years ago. Everything I write comes out twisty and dark no matter how I try the opposite. Horror it is! LOL. Frank Frazetta’s artwork is amazing. I used to paw all over it when I was young. I get a lot of my writing inspiration from art as well. There is so much to do and see that I'm not sure what I'm doing next! Love the new header Alex. A million thanks for my book shout out. Have a beautiful day! Edi, hoping you'll enjoy those last thousand words. Sarah, I know - it rocks! LD, you should dig it up. Sia, he IS cool. Jeremy, that's funny. And the header rocks. Carrie, yes, you will be my guest that day! Mel, you're welcome. And you need to have him do that. Spruce up your header while keeping the ships and the feel. Lynda, I pawed over it as well, but I'm sure for a different reason. Hildie, you're welcome! Thanks for the secret origin of the Cassan universe! Dunno how you keep up Alex. Liked the sound of Adverstarius so bought it for my Kindle. Love your new header. Very flash. No good at movie trivia. Don't get to see too many movies. Interesting how Cassa Star began. Love that picture. I never missed an episode of the original Battlestar Galactica. I believe I have some of his artwork on collector's cards. Fascinating artwork that really drew my eye. I found them in a little shop in a tiny town near the coast of Oregon (while looking for X-Files cards, haha). I do love inspiration in all forms. Wonderful to hear where CassaStar came from. Shannon at The Warrior Muse Love the new header. Very cool. And I think it's amazing how your whole life was essentially changed by that picture. Think about it. The blog. All these people. How much would be the same if you'd never seen that and never decided to write Cassa Star? Maybe it all would've happened in some other way, but you never know. I think that's the best thing about life. How even the most innocuous-seeming things (like a picture) can impact you for years to come. :) Too much going on! AH! It's all good though. Nice getting a glimpse into 'the beginning'. Thanks for sharing. Heather Jo, I just do my best. Susan, I didn't either! Shannon, that is very cool! I have a game with his artwork on it. Tamara, none of it would've happened... Very cool beginning. A picture or a piece of music an inspire a whole series. I'm off to the Spacedock now! Alex, I think you are at the point now that you need this comment box at the top of the comment list instead of the bottom :) That is a very cool header and I like it a lot. I will throw some work Jeremy's way if I decide to go that route at some point. Hey I got three of the four movies I named, right!! Amazing. Lots going on this first week or so in 2013! Nothing like starting with a BANG!!!!!! I got one from the trivia! Yeah! Can't wait to stop by M.Pax's blog to check out the post. :) Cool banner! ~Stephanie Chuck, I'll see what I can do about the comment box, And I think one of Jeremy's headers would look awesome on your blog. Stephanie, glad you got one right. It was nice to read about your motivation for Cassa Star! I'll go check out your interview with Pax. Some really great blog hops coming up and I'm so stoked for Becca's book! :) I love your header!!! Jeremy rocks, flashes and glows ;D What the heck...a month? C'mon Captain...no fair-I need a hint! Off to check out MPax-I miss her~ I'm so behind, but playing catch up is fun! I love how fun and kind your blog is! Congrats to all! Mel you rock ;D Yeah, that image would catch my attention too. ......dhole Franzetta's Battlestar Galactica is epic. Great inspiration Alex. Love the new banner. I wondered if Retro Zombie was the creator. Hard to beat Frazetta, and yes, I can see Byron in that center figure. I love how the Cassa trilogy, and by extension this blog, came about because of that single image. It's a pretty awesome way to begin :) Jamie I'm not surprised that a powerful image you saw as kid helped to inspire your novel. The older I get, the more I'm amazed at how much the world we lived in when young still affect us. One of these days, I swear I'm gonna answer all your trivia questions. Hey, it's cool to know how you got started with CassaStar. I didn't realize you began writing it when you were a teen :) Oh I read and reviewed Adversarius! It's a great book. Congratulations to Mel Chesley :)) Great header! It was interesting reading about what inspired CassaStar. Dude. Your new banner looks awesome! Ella, thank you. And I will give you a hint - it involves a top ten list. DG, figured you would see Byron. Jamie, it is wild when you think about it. Helena, don't give up hope that you'll answer them. Rachel, I did! Many, many years ago... Michael, you're a speed reader. Man I love those moments where inspiration strikes is right on down! :) Nice story for the blogfest. I have yet to read any of your books but they are all high up on my TBR! and thousands of fans! awesome picture! art is so inspirational! fabulous new look! love it! cant wait to see what you do next! Great new banner! Loved Frazetta's artwork and all the newsy stuff! Love the new header, noticed it right away :). A new blogfest? Hmmm...I am most intrigued! Happy Wednesday! Jen Awesome banner!!! And so many blogfests to enter. Congratulations to all that have new books out. I love the story behind the inspiration for CassaStar. That image can really stir some creativity, and I'm glad it caught your eye. I have a funny story about my inspiration for Forged by Greed :-) I'm off to M Pax's blog to read the post. I love the new banner! It's spectacular! The new banner is AWESOME, Alex!!! Love it. =) Going to check out books. =) Your new header is great! So what should I do now, shut my blog down or change header? I totally identify with using artwork for inspiration! I'm working on a high fantasy project, and I've developed a habit of finding scifi and fantasy pictures on pinterest to help me envision locals and characters and even events for my story. :D Trisha, thank you!! Tara, I hope I have that many fans. Angela, you need to post that story. Jay, or contact Jeremy to do a new one! Liesel, smart idea. Oy! Totally forgot it was Wednesday yesterday. Better late than never. Good thing I dropped by. I'd miss all the news without your posts. So many blogfest! And so little time. I loved the BG from the late 70's early 80's. had big crushes in Apollo & Starbuck. Not surprised you'd find it inspiring. Funny where we find that nugget of inspiration. That's so cool to learn the inspiration behind Cassa Star! I remember when that picture came out! :) It's amazing what can come from a simple picture. I know I've had my fair share of image-based muses. Love the new header. Absolutely gorge!!! Alex, the new header is jazzy. I like it. It boggles my mind when I come here and see all these blog posts I want to visit and all these new books I want to read. I need more hours in my day. Yes, interesting CassaStar roots. I love the new header! Awesome lightning effects... very atmospheric! I enjoyed the Cassastar beginnings... It seems like the blogfests never end... there are so many new ones... Nancy, it was a cheesy show, but I dug it. DL, glad someone else remembered! Patricia, I am here to boggle... I love the new header!! Great job, Jeremy! Alex, lucky you, yes it's me, Penny the Jack Russell dog and modest internet superstar! You are having another blogfest? We will check that out. We do so hope you join our "Groundblog Day" blogfest. That's "Groundblog", not "Groundhog". Clever, eh? You are having another blogfest? We will check that out. We do so hope you join our "Groundblog Day" blogfest. That's "Groundblog", not "Groundhog". Clever, eh? Went by Nick's blog. I'm in. Working on a story tonight. You've got a hear of gold, Alex. And thanks for the spam info. Followed all. So far, so good. :))) I'm a very visually-oriented gal, so I can see how this image would've jump started your creativity! It's truly amazing what can spark a story idea! As always I can count on you to keep me busy...LOL, Not that I need it, But nice to know what needs checing out :) Gary, I won't have to listen to I Got You Babe, will I? Gary, I won't have to listen to I Got You Babe, will I? Thanks, Kittie! And glad that nixed the spam. Gotta learn outlining...heading over there now. And it turns out that by sheer luck that I DID know the first trivia answer (it just popped into my brain) even though it's been YEARS since I slept through the movie... Tina @ Life is Good Thanks for providing these links and all this info. Lots to go through. I especially love the rebel writer's creed. YES, I love the header! It's perfect for this blog! I also loved Sheri's writer's creed. It's full of great reminders. Thanks for sharing all the great news. It's so exiting. That's a cool story of how you came up with your novel concept! GOT GREEN!!!!! You know, I'm the reigning champion for that blogfest, I've got to really step it up this year if I'm to win again... And LOVING the new look... I'm commenting just ahead of a new post. LOL I'm so far behind, I can't even see what's behind be me anymore. LOVE the new banner. Jeremy is major-league talented. Frank Frazetta is one of my all time favorite artists. His Wolfman is on my wall here at home. What wonderful news all around the blogosphere. I love hearing all this great news. I love Star Trek too and Star Wars! Though some of my guy friends make fun of me for it since they are "guy movies/shows" but I'm a geek. :) I'm excited for all of the new blogfests! That header is FANTASTIC!! I love it! Thanks for the links and news. I love the new header. Tina, good for you! Morgan, the pressure is on. Melissa, Jeremy did an awesome job. Krista, no, you are an uber-cool chick in my book! Hi Alex - so pleased you highlighted Nick's blogfest for his son - raising funds via an anthology - it will be great. I have to catch up - so much happening - how does anyone keep up .. Cheers and I love the header - talented bloggers around .. let alone writers! Have a great year - Hilary I was wondering where you got that great new header! It's awesome! Jai Aloha, I'm about as late as late can be, but wanted to say Cheers for the O'shout out and may your eyes not glaze over if I add to the "Wow, dude, cool new header" gang :)

IN THE COMMENTS:1jpb said... Who cares about the iconic appeal?Don't get me started. My family's tragedy was the death of Pierce-Arrow! Losing Duesenberg and Packard (the early Packards, like mine) that was the loss of icons. Who cares about the iconic appeal?Don't get me started. My family's tragedy was the death of Pierce-Arrow! Losing Duesenberg and Packard (the early Packards, like mine) that was the loss of icons. 134 comments: December 6, 2008: A date which will live in infamy. They're not only going bankrupt, they're also going to go out and gather up every car they've ever made and destroy those too? Seems like they would save a lot of money for restructuring by going ahead and letting the Ford and Chevy pickups, the Jeeps and Suburbans and PT cruisers continue to drive around. Who cares about the iconic appeal? Loosing Duesenberg and Packard (the early Packards, like mine) that was the loss of icons. Beyond the, imho, silly iconic chit chat, there are legitimate financial and strategic problems with the decimation of domestic control and development of auto production. Imagine an America with no more Corvettes! No more Caddies, Trans Ams, Camaros or Mustangs. No Ford or Chevy pick up trucks; no Jeeps or Suburbans. Not one PT Cruiser. Is that supposed to be good or bad? I kid, I kid. Who could stand to go without seeing the beautiful PT Cruiser in action? Why does this blogger think that these cars would be gone? That's not what would happen if the companies were allowed to go bankrupt. These cars would still be made. Don't worry, our salvation is at hand. Obama will save us all with his plan for a new Civilian Conservation Corps and Work Projects Administration, and that will revive the economy so greatly that we will all be buying up American cars. Just imagine all the jobs he will create handing you unemployed people a shovel and telling you to go work a road gang, not to mention all the people working to change light bulbs! So what if the day laborers down at the 7-11 will get all these new jobs building roads and rebuilding school buildings? Your medical records will be on a computer! So that in itself is going to super-charge our economy! Yes, a new day is dawning! Who cares?! Honestly...the Mustang. Does anyone drive those? Anyone besides 16-year-olds in the South? And what's so damned special about the Jeep Cherokee? Chrysler has long since f-ed up the Jeep line. There's what? 15 models now. And they all look the same. Get over it. American cars are crap. And not only because they are ugly. But because the people who make them are ugly, too. All those damned union workers making god-knows-what for driving a couple screws are finally about to get what's coming to them. Let them compete in the marketplace. Let them justify $25 an hour plus healthcare plus pension in any other industry. General Motors is dead. Long live Toyota. Chrysler is dead. Long live Honda. Ford is dead. Long live Nissan. LOL "No Ford or Chevy pick up trucks; no Jeeps or Suburbans. Not one PT Cruiser. All gone..." Isn't that the "green" lefty's most orgasmic dream ever? I thought they hated all cars except for the Prius and those ugly little "Smart" cars? They should be happy about this! Better get in shape! That 40 mile bike commute is gonna be murder! I didn't click on the link because I'm afraid it might not be a joke. Better safe than sorry. "I didn't click on the link because I'm afraid it might not be a joke." Oh it's a joke alright. Not intentionally so, but a joke nonetheless. "What pathogens could possibly be responsible for KOS?" Whatever it is, it certainly isn't the contagious happiness from the other day. marks, the brands, the styles and what have you, are tangibles that will survive, thanks to intellectual property. Sure it may all belong to somebody else, but it will survive. Move along now. The typos are the clue that it's not a joke. Detroit faces many challenges. The biggest is: innovate or die. "Rice burning Nissons [sic]"? Sounds like someone's clinging to "antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment." "all looted by ultra-conservatives eager to punish generations of American workers for the sin of not voting for the GOP in acceptable numbers" I love the logical inversion demonstrated by the above. Yes, they are being "punished", how? By not getting the taxpayers to subsidize their excessive compensation packages. What is threatened is that they will have to depend on the health of corporations which their unions squeezed the lifeblood out of. Twin, There are a lot of odd things about your post, but I'll just address one of them for now: You wrote: "The simple fact is that cars can be made just as well in 3rd world countries that aren't bound by obscene 40 hour work weeks, consumer- and worker-safety laws, and retirement plans. The American worker is going to have to learn to compete with the cheap labor available in Mexico, Haiti, Bangladesh, and throughout the 3rd world." Third world countries like, what, Tennessee? We're getting a Volkswagen plant in my town next year and couldn't be more thrilled. And we've lost out on at least a half dozen others who went to neighboring states. The South is just full of non-union, good wages, good benefits "foreign" car manufacturers. These are the folks that Detroit can't compete with. In other words, imagine an America without a bunch of shitty, dangerous gas-guzzling cars and trucks, and without a huge bloated, whiny unionized blue-collar workforce. Yeah, what will we ever do. This is our chance to kill off one of the unions. Let's not pass it up, even if it causes further economic woes. We can ultimately lay the blame where it belongs: at the feet of the middle class. It's wake-up time for the overstuffed American comfort class. No more nanny state for the masses. The middle class has to snap out of it's hippy dippy delusions about "the American Dream," or face the consequences. The global economy simply cannot sustain middle class incomes for a large proportion of the population. The lasting sin of big government/New Deal liberalism was creating the unreasonable expectation that middle class can be sustained at post-New Deal levels. Thanks to the Democrat Party, hundreds of millions of middle class Americans now feel entitled to live in their own homes, have access to world-class health care, and even send their kids to college. That kind of fancy living has never been sustainable for "the masses," as we are learning now. Compare this to India, or China, where 80% of the population lives in poverty, forming a dynamic labor pool that propels their economies. The simple fact is that cars can be made just as well in 3rd world countries that aren't bound by high wages, 40 hour work weeks, heath care coverage, consumer- and worker-safety legislation, retirement plans, and other Democrat-largess. The American worker is going to have to learn, like it or not, to compete with cheap labor from, e.g., Mexico and Haiti. And the American middle class is going to have to shrink back down to sustainable levels. That was the whole point of NAFTA and GATT and the other free trade agreements, and we're finally seeing a long-needed reordering of global economic priorities as a result. Historically dynamic capitalist economies are able to sustain — a small class of wealthy (1% or so of the population). This is the productive engine that drives investment, innovation — a modest middle class, maybe 5%-10% of the population, to service corporations and the wealth. These are the professionals: doctors, lawyers, skilled tech jobs. The only viable role for the remaining 90%, give or take, is service as a flexible labor market. People have been doing fine under these conditions for centuries, but the American middle class is at a disadvantage, now, because they've come to expect (feel entitled to) a pampered yet unsustainable middle class existence. The transition to sustainability is going to be difficult for people who have come to expect middle class comfort. So: Let's reorder the economy on a sound basis and take this chance to finally kill off the UAW, and with it the old liberal notion of a broad middle class. This first step will lead to additional course corrections: Once the middle class shrinks down to sustainable levels, ignoring the internal contradictions of Social Security financing will become impossible. Within a few years, the entire system of federal entitlements will implode, liberating our economy once and for all from the restraints placed on it by 80 years of corrupt Dem leadership. Yup. The end of the line for the big three. Yet Kos misses the point. It won't be the end of the "American" auto industry. Just the end of three crappy, bloated companies that pay unionized workers too much money to make inferior vehicles that not enough consumers want to buy. Once the Big Three are bankrupt and gone, the marketplace will have a vacuum. There will be a "pro-American" market out there for American-designed, American-built, American-brand cars. Someone will fill the void with a new company. And they will have the opportunity to do so with the benefit of lessons learned from the missteps of Ford, Chrysler and GM. THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is Change You Can Believe In. Taxpayer bailouts, on the other hand, hardly represent Change. To people who still think unions are a good idea: this is the pot of chickens coming home to roost. The Mustang is still a great car! The Big 3 is doomed. It is a rotting corpse. Let it die and replace it with foreign manufacturers on American soil. Even if the stupid union contracts (including the ones paying people not to work) are torn up, the ultra-generous pension and healthcare plans cannot be supported. There is no way UAW or Congress agrees to cut those. Therefore, thee is no way those get cut. Therefore, they remain a millstone around the Big 3's neck. The Big 3 is a rotting corpse, and Congress just wants to prop it up, maybe inject it with a little juice so it can shamble around aimlessly like some kind of zombie for a few years until it needs another hit of zombie juice (taxpayer dollars). We can only hope that this infection does not spread to other industries. That's the left-wing goal--to turn us into a socialist country by destroying our economy and folding the broken pieces into our federal government. That's why lefties always oppose sound economic policy and always support hoaxes like "Global Warming." They know that to achieve their goals, they must bring America to its knees. Of course, in any good zombie movie, you know the ending in advance: we're all f#cked. This is the same way. Think about what a great country this is where one can go from potential heiress to the Pierce-Arrow dynasty to starving art school student to tenured law professor at a top tier law school to world-renowned Blog Goddess zipping around in a precision European sports car jobby all in the course of one short lifetime! My country tis of thee! I think Congress should bring back the Studebaker, too, just for good measure. "potential heiress to the Pierce-Arrow dynasty" More like potential heiress to a mechanic shop. And Meade has the bio and motion picture rights? You lucky bastard! Pretend it's Cuba. They have kept American cars from the 1950's and earlier going for half a century. After you are done pretending, start dealing with the 21st century, where America is no longer ascendant in the auto industry. It's called Change. Isn't that what the Kos crowd has been waiting for "And Meade has the bio and motion picture rights? You lucky bastard!" You may say I'm a dreamer... a lucky bastard dreamer. I like to think of myself as an average ordinary blue collar premier myth maker babe magnet. So we've come to the point where someone who thinks a business should stand or fall on its own merits, rather than being nationalized in part or whole, is an "ultra-conservative". Not just conservative, an ultra conservative. I guess now if you believe in private property and free markets at all, that alone makes you somewhat suspect. I guess in the Obama Nation, the free market is just so yesterday. It's been at least 5 years since the last Trans Am was made. Not sure what the connection is between the GOP and the collapsing American auto industry. Ford, GM, and Chrysler have been dying of the same self-imposed illness for 20 years, through both Republican and Democratic administrations. Blaming their plight on anyone but themselves misses the real issue at hand. Forgive us for being skittish about dumping billions more in tax dollars to keep their lights on for another six months when these companies haven't even proven they can run themselves properly. That Pierce-Arrow background seems familiar. My grandfather was a Packard mechanic, who went on to work for himself. But, then the legacies diverge; I bought myself a Packard because I was inspired by pictures of my grandfather next to these big, beautiful cars from the past. My grandfather only had joyful memories of his Packard days--contagious memories for me. P.S. Thanks for losing the typo, I noticed it, but didn't feel like deleting and correcting the comment. I love the wishful thinking in "let the Big 3 die, we'll all Buy Toyota". First, why would Toyota build more plants in the USA if the big 3 are gone? They build them now because of the explicit and implicit threat of tariffs and quotas. A threat which will go away, when the big 3 go. Second, once gone the Auto industry will never come back. Goodbye, millions of jobs. Who's going to hire them? Are to they all to be government employees? Third, we are now running $500 billion dollar trade deficits with the rest of the world. What are we going to give the Japanese in return for all these shiny new Toyota's? US assets? More worthless dollars? The same people who engineered the subprime fiasco, engineered the $700 wall street bailout fiasco, are now saying we need the big 3 to die. Hmmmm..... The big three should leave the US, find low tax countries with workers who want to work, build cars to sell to the world, be successful. Where to begin with RC's know-nothing comment. Treatises could be written. They build them now because of the explicit and implicit threat of tariffs and quotas. No. They don't. Foreign manufacturers build plants here now because they are profitable. That's why businesses are in business. To make money. Note where the plants are built. Are they built in Michigan, where unions have a stranglehold on the economy? Or are they built in the South, where labor is far cheaper? we are now running $500 billion dollar trade deficits with the rest of the world Why is that, RC? Why has the United States run trade deficits for decades? Is it some conspiracy? No. It's because our currency is strong and our labor is expensive. If your goal is truly to get rid of the trade deficit, the thing to do is to lower labor costs substantially and decrease the cost of our money. I don't understand what the problem is with bankruptcy. These are failed businesses. They can't pay their bills. They need to completely change the way they do business. Bankruptcy allows that. Finally, I read something the other day that was intriguing. The bailout, rightly, has involved banks. If you want money, go to a bank. That's where all the money from the government has gone. Republicans did not destroy the American automobile industry, and the implication that they did is fatuous. It was destroyed by the UAW and management both assuming that they could be as inefficient as they wished as long as all American manufacturers were more or less equally burdened. It didn't work out. Life's a bitch. It only gets worse for America if we force our economy to drag along a zombie automobile industry. Both UAW and management made the bed. They should now be forced to lie in it. I agree RcOcean. It is time to look out for our nation's self-interests. Why doesn't Congress ever discuss the financial incentives the Japaneses auto companies get from their govt? Oh sure Congress delves into the national healthcare in Japan because Dems want that here too. But I an sure the Japanese govt gives plenty of other yen! Plus the Janps and Asians buy very few of our cars? Why is that? Let's have an economy that looks like Japan's. So free and growing so much. While we're at it, let's get a criminal justice system like Japan's, too. Rights, shmights. I feel compelled to reiterate something: we will never, ever, ever erase the American trade deficit or even begin to start competing with foreign manufacturers in any industry where wages are high. It's basically a mathematical impossibility. How can people not understand this? You can't expect to sell more of your stuff when it is far more expensive than other stuff that is the same. If you want high wages, you cannot also have a trade surplus. To believe otherwise makes you a moron. I must assume that all the military's trucks/ airplanes/ and other assembly line produced stuff will always be available as imports from the friends we have e all over the world. But what if they cause Co2 and have been banned by the UN in the future? Traditional -- Certainly, because no American entrepreneur would fill that niche. Never. If these three companies go bankrupt, another American vehicle will never be made. Bankruptcy is death, and birth is not allowed. "My grandfather only had joyful memories of his Packard days--contagious memories for me." If you mean to imply that my grandfather was bitter and groused about his misfortune, you are wrong. I never heard him speak about it at all. I have had to imagine the disappointments he had. He never talked about anything like that. Precisely how does our Congress think we could handle another WWII without an auto industry to make the trucks, the tanks and the parts for repair? How does our Congress plan to handle the 1 MILLION pensioners from GM who suddenly don't have a pension? That's one in 300 Americans. How does our Congress plan on handling Michigan loosing another 800,000 jobs like we lost in the past 8 years.. but this time all at once? What the hell are they thinking? They've given buttloads of cash without hesitation to the financial firms who have used it for bonuses and to buy other foreign companies but STILL AREN'T LENDING money to people to buy cars! Seven: Is Japan's standard of living significantly lower than ours? If not, how do they produce cars at a lower cost? After we factor in the elimination of the US disadvantage for pensions / benefits. Regarding future pension promises that are not funded, Congress is to blame. Congress has sat idly by for years while some big businesses and many many state and local govts devised overly generous pensions but did not fund them. That was also a violation of the law of mathematics Seven Machos mentioned. Why is it always assumed that the only alternatives are to bail out Detroit as is, or watch GM, Ford and Chrysler disappear without a trace? When United Airines went bankrupt did all its airplanes immediately vanish? These companies have contractual obligations with their labor force and dealer networks that are unsustainable. If they are to regain profitability, they need to renegotiate these deals under Chapter 11 protection. Let the bankruptcy laws work as they were intended - there is no pain-free way for the government to "save" Detroit. Seven, Ignoring the fact that a lot of folks won't buy a car from a company in bankruptcy, and ignoring the fact that bankruptcies drag on for a long time; are you suggesting that Chapter 11 (w/o the gov financing anyway) will not lead to Chapter 7 in our current situation? Then, add in the problem of selling cars while a long (likely Chapter 7) bankruptcy works through the courts. If you don't care about the loss of the domestic design and development control in autos, what do you think will replace this work and innovation? Are you a promoter of the race to the bottom philosophy? Austerity didn't work for Hoover, and it didn't work for FDR. And, we are blessed that the US is the biggest of the too-big-to-fail, hence the big money of the world is still forced to dump their cash into Treasuries. Treasuries provide a return, even if it's almost zero on the shorter stuff--that's still better than losing money. Treasuries are the way the world's big money gets stuffed under the proverbial mattress. Let's quasi-arbitrage this cheap money to find a floor so that things can get moving in the right direction. Hopefully, the Fed will work to lock in the maximum amount of cheap money for the longest terms possible. P.S. Maybe the foriegn companies were worried about quotas, like we had while Reagan was president, so they started assembling here. P.P.S. We're like a developing country to the foriegn companies who assemble cars in the States. The home countries keep a lot of the high powered technology, innovation, and development: we do the grunt work. They are getting better than us at the making advancements. That seems like it could be a long term problem. At least we're still blessed with a lot of domestic material resources, but we should probably look at our human capital relative to other developed countries. Maybe our material resources have made us overconfident; how much of our growth is the result of our commodity wealth versus our brilliance. Would Japan be so advanced if they had the crutch of a lot of domestic commodity resources? P.P.P.S Folks may want to read recent Sully posts (including dissents) about health care and pensions. No PT Cruiser or Jeep Cherokee? Where do I sign up? Seriously, those are two utter piles of shit. Until recently so was the Mustang; now it's just a half pile of shit. It may look nice, but the suspension is outdated crap. That aside, Ford isn't going under. They are actually getting their house in order. The only reason they showed up in DC is they heard free money was being handed out. Truth is, though Ford will never admit it, they will benefit if GM or Chrysler go under. Not only will it reduce the [over] supply of cars, it will give them incredible control at the bargaining table--in fact, they may just tell the Union to go to hell and hire scabs, which will be easy as pie. Chrysler is the worse of the three and should have already gone under. The only thing decent they make is the Viper (which loses money) and the Dodge Ram Pickup (especially with the Cumins diesel, which Ford would love to get their hands on since their diesel engine isn't very good.) Somewhat recently I worked on a project that forced me to learn about GMs part distribution system. It's dreadfully "designed" and horribly inefficient. (By contrast, Ford's part distribution system is a dream.) People won't buy a car from a company that is in bankruptcy? Really? Did they not fly American while it was in bankruptcy? That seems a hell of a lot more perilous. It's one thing to buy a car, quite another to put your life in the hands of a pilot. This argument is absurd and spurious. Next, please. And, really. Try harder. Japan produces lower-cost cars because it has lower costs. traditionalguy at 2:41, a lot of the military's vehicles come from AM General, which is not one of the Big 3, and not, to my knowledge anyway, involved in the bailout negotiations. They build the H2 Hummers for GM and would be hurt if they lost that marketing channel, but would they be hurt enough to have to shut down production of military vehicles? I don't know enough to say, but I doubt it. Bradleys are built by BAE Land and Armaments, an international company with its US HQ in Minneapolis. It's not WW II any more, when the auto companies turned the assembly lines over to military production. Airplanes, now, that might be another matter. Though the contract for tankers has not yet been given to Airbus; Boeing may yet prevail. The auto companies are not going bankrupt - Congress will not allow it, except under some kind of hybrid bailout/bankruptcy that preserves union jobs and wages. Isn't it strange the auto companies have been bargaining as if they're in a position of strength? It's because they're as strong politically as they are weak financially. The biggest benefit to bankruptcy from the auto companies' perspective is it allows them to renegotiate union contracts. There's no way the Democrats are going to cross the UAW like that, even if it means a permanent IV of taxpayer money into the sector. The only real question is whether the Democrats bring enough Republicans along to make it a "bi-partisan" bailout. My daughter tells me that the new ones are worthless and ugly. I don't think she'd drive a new Mustang if it arrived at Christmas with a big bow on the hood. She wants an 80-something Camaro. Weird kid. The Corvette is an amazing car; it's highest performance models are in many ways superior to cars manufactured by Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati and others. I look forward to the day when I can buy a new Corvette at a price that reflects a restructured GM's labor cost. That being said, I miss and still yearn for the Nash Metropolitan. Gone, but never forgotten. The new Republican Slogans for 2010: "$700 billion for Wall Street but not one Dime for Detroit" Or: "American Workers Drop Dead - you make too much." Should be a winner. Seven, That you are someone who would make a major durable good purchase of a car from a company that is broke, with an uncertain resolution (Chap 11 or 7, and gov $ or no gov $, and unknown macroeconomic expectations), says a lot about you. If there were more folks like you it wouldn't matter what kinds of uncompetitive cars were produced domestically, some sucker would buy them anyway. "all looted by ultra-conservatives eager to punish generations of American workers for the sin of not voting for the GOP in acceptable numbers" Actually the problem was that Democrats forced the US auto companies auto companies to build small cars that no one wanted to buy at a price that would allow the companies to make a profit. (Foreign companies could make those cars profitable for reasons that had a lot to do with more amenable labor unions.) But, all of the great cars will not disappear. In fact they will be on the roads for decades to come as people refuse to buy the cars Congress is going to design for Detroit to produce in return for subsidizing them. Synova, Does she need a theme song ? "American Workers Drop Dead - you make too much." Should be a winner. Of course it's not a *winner*. It's just true. And truth isn't very popular. It's much more popular to tell people that corporations are evil and have unlimited funds and there are no down-sides to making them pay you more. Granted, no one is saying that the auto-makers are victims. They dug their own hole. The question is, should taxpayers bail out an industry that has been bailed out before? The rant Ann quotes is pretty typical, it seems, of an argument that simply does not admit the existence of economic reality. No, it's just mean and vindictive motivations... the only reason that "conservatives" do anything. Hate. rcocean said... The new Republican Slogans for 2010: "$700 billion for Wall Street but not one Dime for Detroit" You seem to have forgotten that most Republicans did not vote for the Wall Street bailout. You also should note that most of the money donated from Wall Street went to Democrats. Also consider how many from the Clinton Administration were on Wall Street making millions per year. Think of Raines, Gorelick, and most of all Robert Rubin. How much of the $700 billion will go to George Soros, not a friend of Republicans? But, I think you have nailed another Democratic Party big lie. I am pro-bailout. Lending is the basis of our free economy. Without banking, everything else falls apart quickly. See, for example, the Great Depression, when for years Roosevelt and Hoover kept money tight, further constricting a constricted economy. I am convinced that people on the fringe left and fringe right simply do not understand economics. How else could you possibly believe that the way to save a struggling business is to keep it exactly in a position where it is losing money? If the unions and management wanted to solve their problems, they could do so, easily. They don't, though, so to hell with them. Bankruptcy law is there for a reason. Finally, what's so special about the auto companies? Nothing. Not one thing. What about General Growth. They own malls. Mall are vital for shopping. What about Fred's Bakery and Big Schlong's Porno Emporium? Why not those businesses? "What about Fred's Bakery and Big Schlong's Porno Emporium? Why not those businesses? " Donuts and porn - there will always be demand. Talk about too big to fail-- Fred's and Big Schlong's going out of business would truly be Black Swan events. I'm finally reading Amity Shlaes' book on the Great Depression, "The Forgotten Man." Two of her complaints with FDR and the New Dealers were their insistence on making business the scapegoat, and the effect of his "bold, persistent experimentation," both of which frightened investors into keeping their money on the sidelines due to the persistent uncertainty. Seems like the opposite is taking place now. We have people like this Kos diarist, a leftist, who gets teary-eyed thinking about GM, Ford and Chrysler and can't imagine life without them. It's Feel-o-nomics. I suppose Feel-o-nomics creates another kind of uncertainty. Companies could make the tough choices to survive in this economy. Or they could create a wave of sentimental nostalgia and hope they can use that to get a bailout. Which other businesses would the left give a sentimental bailout? Here are some "deserving" candidates: Apple Starbucks The Simpsons The New Yorker Patagonia The Boston Red Sox Burt's Bees CBS Wham-O (makers of Frisbee and the Hula Hoop) American Spirit Cigarettes Nike I have always thought that John Stodder was one of the most sensible and intelligent posters on the Althouse blog. But to suggest that the Boston Red Sox deserve a bailout can only mean one thing. You sir are a communist. Whole Foods Google Ben and Jerry's MSNBC Harper Collins The New York Times Can't let any of these irreplaceable companies fail. But to suggest that the Boston Red Sox deserve a bailout can only mean one thing. You sir are a communist. John Cusack and Ben Affleck love them and would be very upset if anything ever happened to them. I realize they're profitable now, but you can never be too sure. They deserve at least $2 billion. Chip Ahoy said... basic analysis is correct, save the motive was not to screw the middle class, but enrich the wealthy further. The mechanism was the informal Bretton Woods II, where American Elites agreed to let cheap Asian labor wipe out manufacturing and depress wages in services and thus give themselves 10 digit GNP Growth. In return they would expect to honor the dollar's dominance and give America's Elites, particularly in the financial and real estate sectors, a cut of the action on the recycled Dollar. It was a brainchild of ultraconservatives in the Reagan Administration. America would then be the "knowledge economy" where we would have all the IT workers and the experts the Asians needed to make their new ex-American industries prosper. And they thought we would dominate new technology, like cell phones, fiber optics, plasma screen TVs. And all the Asian dollars ploughed back in could go into Gov't, which would allow supply side conservatives to massively grow the Government under Reagan AND cut taxes. It worked, just like someone quitting his job to be a poker player and using his inheritance and home equity to get a big line of credit. Meaning - it worked for a while. The middle class was told, despite their huge unease about factory after factory closing, that "Exciting" new jobs were coming. The losses had little to do with the manufacturing or services jobs being union or not. The only criteria was if Japan, then later China, Pakistan, Indonesia, and India could do it cheaper than the American. The trade deficit exploded. More unease. The masses were told "real estate!" was the answer - nothing need be made in America anymore but houses and "the small niche military market that needs domestic product." Now the crap has hit the fan. I don't care if John Cusack, Joan Cusack or your ball sack loves them, there is one thing that is perfectly clear: BOSTON SUCKS!!!!!!!!! And that dweeb Ben Afleck dumped a hot chica with a sweet ass for a skinny buck tooth sckank so what the hell does he know about the price of beans. What is Burt's Bees? The 140000 UAW members don't make all that much more than the non-unionized workers at the foreign transplant factories. The bulk of the almost $30/hr difference is benefits, which I believe includes retiree benefits. If all the UAW members work a 2000 hour year, the aggregate extra cost to Detroit is around $8 billion per year. GM should have gone Ch11 a few quarters ago when they became technically insolvent but still had the cash reserves to get through it. Ford will probably be OK and its interesting that of the Detroit 3, they are the ones with a product guy in the lead, even though his signature product is the Boeing 777. Chrysler is private and not too big to fail. Their IP of any value - mostly Jeep - will be sold and soldier on. And the US will still not get a clue that we need to make things and incent and respect who can and do. Ben and Jerry's? Maybe not. This place in Seattle had it's Ben and Jerry's replaced with Red Mango. At least they still have two standalone Starbucks, plus one in the QFC, and another one in the Barnes and Noble--I did mention this is in Seattle. What is Burt's Bees? "Earth friendly Natural Personal Care for the Greater Good." "At Burt’s Bees, our goal is to help create a world where people have the information and tools they need to make the highest ethical choices and do the best for themselves, their families and the environment." Their signature product seems to be some kind of organic lip balm, but they also make shampoo, skin creme, cologne, etc. The lip balm works pretty good. Interesting that liberals comprise most of Red Sox Nation, since the dirty secret is the Sox were the last team to be integrated -- fully 12 years after Jackie Robinson joined the Dodgers. Yet my Dodgers seem to have no cachet among the glitterati. Our most famous fan is Alyssa Milano. Boston teams have always been the most racist teams in every sport. It is just typical of the liberal hypocrisy that they pretend that it isn't so. This is of course not such a big issue anymore since black athletes won't play baseball anymore. Oh and Alyssa Milano sucks!!! But in a good way. A very very good way. If Cuba can have the same American cars forever, so should America. Quick, Congress, put yourself in charge and make this wish come true! I am feeling the fuzzy, cooling effects of Burt's Bees lip balm as we speak. It's a miracle product, really, particularly in a cold Chicago winter. U use it all the time. I have friends who are addicted to the stuff. I use it all the time. Typos can ruin a good joke. I always get more edumicated here. It pays to ask if you don't know something. I have a tube of Bert's Bees lip balm. The kids may steal my Chapstick but they never steal my Bert's Bees. My husband asked to use it once and was very sorry. I don't like it either. Bleh... smells like perfume. Chap Stick is a lot better than it used to be. Then there is good old Carmex. Just never put it through the washer and dryer. Trust me. Worse than crayons. Ford is anti-gay. I hope they go bankrupt. California, too, Downtown. And virtually every other state, and nation. The auto industry is 4% of US GDP. Over $500 billion a year. Sure you can let it go bust, but the cost will be a hell of a lot more than $35 billion. Yes, I hope California goes bankrupt too. I hope your whole fucking country goes bankrupt. I'm enjoying your Depression. Downtown -- What nation with stunning GDP growth do you call your own? I've said it before - but I really do think that the bankruptcy of the Big 3 would be a great capstone in George W. Bush's legacy. Please let it happen. The worse shape the economy is in on January 20th, the more breathing room Obama will get to enact his agenda. My country enjoyed double digit growth last year. I'll start calling myself an American again on January 20th. Sane people don't wish ill on their own country. If you actually do care about the US economy though, it is important not to let these companies go under. Nobody's buying cars because people are worried about the economy. They are worried about their jobs and their savings. So they make their existing cars go farther. That causes the economy to slow or shrink. But they can only make their cars go so far. Eventually they buy new ones and that helps the economy grow. Well if these companies aren't here, the US will never experience the rebound will. Japan and Korea will instead. That might be good for the world's economy, but I'm not sure its good for the US. Those jobs, 11% of the world's manufacturing industry, will be gone forever. I think they should do some sort of restructuring, maybe allowing one of them to go under and get absorbed by one of the remaining 2. Here is a tip for you if you lost your job and need to make some money. Bet big on Oklahoma in the BCS championship game vs. Florida. You can make some money too on Penn State in the Rose Bowl and I bet Texas Tech will win too though I am not sure who Texas Tech will be playing. AJ Lynch - It's not my country. I've already left. US voters have made it very clear that they don't want gay people living there. Hmm DTL I must have missed that ballot question....what did it ask something like "Are you in favor of gay people living in the USA?" Just what we need, to follow the economic prescriptions of a raving lunatic who believes that the world revolves him and his gayness. Yes Seven - Your economic policies, practiced by George W. Bush - have just done wonders for this economy. AJ Lynch - when you pass constitutional amendments that say "Gays are now second class citizens" that's exactly the message you are sending to gay people - that they are not welcome in your midst. Fine. I listened. Now I get to laugh at your Depression. I had a smile on my face when I read Friday's jobs report. Enjoy your "time abroad," Downtown. As someone who knows quite a bit about consular law, I can assure you that it's tremendously difficult to renounce American citizenship. So, when Obama becomes president, and everything automatically becomes rosy again, we'll welcome you "back" with open arms. "I'll start calling myself an American again on January 20th." That's nice. We, however, will continue to call you an insufferable, needy, sociopathic faggot. I'm not renouncing my citizenship. I still have to pay taxes, and even if I renounced my citizenship - I STILL have to pay taxes for 10 years. That's why I still vote. But I don't have to live there. And my earnings and income are now helping the economy of another country. "My country enjoyed double digit growth last year." What, in the sex tourism industry? They should offer you a medal for, uh, single-handedly causing that windfall. At least I have a job Palladian. And I'm not fat. And I have friends. "And my earnings and income are now helping the economy of another country." How many Thai boys can you buy on 45K a year? Palladian - Next to gaypatriot - the most self-loathing gay person in America. "At least I have a job Palladian. And I'm not fat. And I have friends." How much do you have to pay them? Is it by the hour? How racist can you be against Asians Palladian? We already know that you didn't vote for Obama, solely because he's black. Now we realize that you don't like Asians either. Shocker. I am betting that Downtown is hunkered down in his efficiency in Chelsea right now, masturbating with seething hatred. I feel sorry for gay people who are fat. Gay men care a lot about looks. If I was in Chelsea right now - I'd be out drinking with my friends. Now I'm heading off to the gym. Bye. Bye Seven. You might want to know that the mask you are showing in your profile is quite popular in gay S&M clubs. Good day. Yeah, I'm sure my mask is popular at gay S&M clubs. You'll see guys wearing it all over La Lucha in Mexico City, just for example. I thought you were leaving. What happened? You can't quit me, I guess. "Palladian - Next to gaypatriot - the most self-loathing gay person in America." Haha. I'm not self-loating. I loathe you. When did you finally come out of the closet? When you were 45? That's funny. See, I've been "out" since I was a teenager in conservative rural Pennsylvania, back when being "out" actually carried some risk. At the same time, you spent those years on your knees in restrooms and alleyways all the while pretending to be straight during the day because you were too much of a pussy to be honest with yourself and the world. And now that everyone responds to gayness with a shrug and a yawn, you're suddenly SUPERFAGGOT! Hurling SUPER POWERED insults with impunity and anonymity at those of us who dare "disagree" with you! Able to repulse and sicken people, straight and gay, with a single blog comment! You're pathetic, Mary. "We already know that you didn't vote for Obama, solely because he's black. Now we realize that you don't like Asians either." I know! I even wore my Klan hood and carried a burning cross to my polling station in a public school in south Brooklyn. And those fucking Asians! Man I hate them! I'm calling my Taiwanese and Japanese friends right now to tell them how much I don't like them! I don't care. Every American car I've bought, including the Saturn, has been a disappointment. The trucks were OK, but still not as good. The sad thing is my Toyota Corolla was made in Georgia. It's not American workers that are the problem. It's American car companies. If American workers are building Toyotas, they seem to do a better job. Jeeps have been built by: Bantam. Ford, GM, Willys, AMC, Chrysler, Mercedes (Daimler) and now a hedge fund. I expect that Jeep will end up somewhere, the more important issue for sports car and muscle car people is what will happen to the Connor Ave. Viper plant? I would also expect Corvette and Mustang to survive, with the high-end Corvettes as their American competition and Porsche as their primary European competition Viper does not have an easy road. Viper also doesn't seem a logical fit for any of the world's majors except for Toyota and their Toyota Racing Division, however Toyota has their own problems. I've been musing that maybe Viper could end up being owned by a group of (or individual) wealthy Viper Club members. Viper is no Pierce Arrow, but they are America's most outrageous modern cars. I wish I were in Chelsea right now. "I wish I were in Chelsea right now." London, New York or Clinton? Pretending she was my intern heh. So this gay guy walks into a bar full of nine-year-old boys in Thailand. Chelsea Clinton is there. Bartender says, "Hey pal,..." There's a punchline here. I'm just not able to think of it. Have to be something like "Hey Pal see anything you like?" then segue to the punchline where the gay guy sees Chelsea and says "what a coincidence Chelsea Clinton is here; it was women like her mother who turned me gay!". Chelsea stomps out of the bar, and he says, "There goes the neighborhood!" GM is becoming hysterical about bankruptcy. Yes, sales would decline, but Chapter 11 reorganization will give them flexibility they need to fix many of their problems. They know this and I could understand them being worried, but why do they keep acting like it's the end of the world? My theory; GM is not only in far worse condition than they are letting on to anyone outside a tight inner circle and has committed criminal fraud hiding that fact. Bankruptcy will expose all the dirty laundry and people will go to jail. My 88 Dodge Colt is suffering predictable breakdown. Piece of junk. Cars don't last 20 years anymore. Made by Mitsubishi, which I chose because of their aircraft experience. And try finding a Zero these days. AJ Lynch said: Plus the Janps and Asians buy very few of our cars? Why is that? Duh. The Japanese don't buy American cars because they drive on the left side of the road. During the post-war occupation and reconstruction it was decided by GHQ to retain Japan's left-driving to discourage the American Auto industry from flooding Japan with American cars. Ironic, eh? In the early postwar years, with passenger car production restricted by GHQ, motorcycles and three-wheelers played an enormous part in meeting the demand for motorized vehicles in Japan. In fact the Bank Of Japan didn't think an auto industry was necessary which gave rise to MITI and keiretsu. GHQ also decreed that Allied vehicles would be rebuilt and repaired by Japanese firms to bootstrap the industry, who carefully studied our work methods and repair techniques, adapting and refining them. Toyota developed JIT not from studying our auto industry but Piggly Wiggly, another irony. Every competitive advantage the Japanese learned; we taught them. You might want to Google W.F. Taylor, Frank Gilbreth, and especially W. Edwards Deming. Stupidly, we did not apply the knowledge to our own industry. The Big 3 crash & burn is way over due and as others have commented they did it to themselves. BTW-Denso Corp is GM's top supplier, don't fret, the Japanese will take a hit as well. American vehicles needed to have been built better. I think that is the core of the problem. In 1984 I bought a Chevy truck, no frills, three speed on the column, probably the last one made. No air conditioning. Within 2 years the paint started to fall off. I mean big pieces after a rain. I painted it last summer, and there was no paint on the cab and hood. Some paint left on the bottom parts. I've had to replace the generator, starter and brakes, which was no big deal, and did the work myself. It's been reliable for 148,000 miles. Except for the paint, which limited the resale value, almost immediately. Next up, I bought a 1998 Chev S-10, and had to replace the clutch after 80,000 miles, again, at 120,000 miles plus some transmission parts. Sometimes you could get it into 4 wheel drive, sometimes you couldn't get it out. Everything broke on the car, and by 1997, it was a piece of rust. Because I had a 55 mile drive to work, and was closing in on retirement, I spent $8500 on a GEO Metro. Made in Canada it has been a blessing, and is still going strong at 168,000 miles. I have to replace the exhaust system about every 4 years, but do the work myself, so it's relatively inexpensive. I remember when I got out of the Army in 1968, and my father bought a brand new Dodge truck. The worse piece of crap made. Needed a new engine after only 20,000 miles, and by 60,000 miles was a rusted piece of junk. That's why Detroit is having problems. Dang! Make that "I bought a 1989 Chev S-10" That's why Detroit is having problems. Quite a while back I heard Phil Condidt (of Boeing) tell a story about transmissions. Apparently the Ford Ranger and Mazda pickup used the same transmissions. Both companies had the exact same specs, but the Ford built transmissions had reliability problems. The engineers tore apart the two transmissions but their precise measuring tools couldn't detect any difference. After further study they found that the Japanese transmissions were more perfect than the measuring tools could distinguish. This extreme precession was necessary for that particular transmission design. P.S. He also said that China told Boeing they would not buy planes unless a lot of the construction took place in China. We would never want to put pressure on foriegn companies who want access to our markets, that's not free trade. 1jpb: Exactly. This Deming page will further illustrate the point. Ford did not seek Deming's advice until 1981, the Japanese had a thirty year head start at that point. Our auto industry is not competitive because we have not made it so, all of us are responsible, the customer who buys iconic marketing and accepts lesser quality as long as it is "cool". Management, shareholders, unions and politicans are mutually culpable. They began to see the auto industry as a means to produce wealth and votes; the Milo Minderbinder approach. When better quality, fuel efficient and/or hotter iconic alternatives were offered the public switched in staggering numbers. Still the Detroit dinosaur lumbered on, adding more overhead baggage and producing cars years behind the imports; unaware or incapable of accepting that the import asteroid was about to render them extinct. Detroit had a serious heads up in the 70's. Ford responded with the more fuel efficient Taurus-Sable cars of the mid and late 80's. GM and Chrysler plodded on through the morass of too many badges, low quality and Congress grandstanding with unrealistic federal regulation time frames; all larded with executive merit bonuses, dividends and labor benefit packages until they finally reached the edge of the insolvency tar pits. I have extended family members who will be negatively impacted if GM is forced into bankruptcy, but the cost per unit of management and labor must be reduced to make the industry competitive. They must then address the issue of quality control, CAFE goals and most importantly plant realignment and retooling, the mother of all of money-sucking tar pits on Detroit's horizon. Retooling alone will take 4-5 years. Our pockets are not that deep, soon the taxpayer, if not already, will be tapped out. Then what? Bankruptcy. Do it now, accept the short term pain, before it becomes a Sisyphean task. People won't buy a car from a company that is in bankruptcy? Really? Did they not fly American while it was in bankruptcy? That seems a hell of a lot more perilous. Not really. Once you've made your flight, you've received everything American owes you. If you buy a car from a company in bankruptcy, how can you guarantee a supply of spare parts and service? What about warranties? Ask Peugeot, Fiat, and Alfa Romeo owners what it was like when they abandoned the US market. To those saying US cars are crap, have you been to an auto show this year? The latest batch of new GM cars, like the Pontiac G8 and Cadillac CTS, are light years ahead of GM's past efforts. Interior quality and design is top notch, GM's powertrains are a good as ever (never slam GM's engineers), and ride & handling is as good as anything out there. I currently own a Lexus, but I'm seriously considering a CTS, it's that good. "Rice Burning"? Very intelligent journalism there. How ignorant! The American auto companies have had plenty of time to correct their ways, but instead thought it best to rest on their pathetic American laurels. "We're Americans. We practically invented the car so we don't need to be taking advice from any other country's business practices." Typical American mentality. And now look where its gotten you. It's an eat or be eaten world and the American automakers have just been served up with a side of steaming rice.

Download citation file: From Copenhagen University Hospital Gentofte, Hellerup, Denmark, and Copenhagen University Hospital Glostrup, National Institute of Public Health, University of Southern Denmark, and Copenhagen University Hospital Rigshospitalet, Copenhagen, Denmark. Grant Support: By the Danish Medical Research Council (grant 271-06-0572) and the Danish Heart Foundation (grant 10-04-R78-A2865-22586). Potential Conflicts of Interest: Disclosures can be viewed at. Reproducible Research Statement:Study protocol and statistical code: Available from Dr. Charlot (e-mail, mc@heart.dk). Data set: Not available. Requests for Single Reprints: Mette Charlot, MD, Department of Cardiology, Copenhagen University Hospital Gentofte, PA Research, Post 67, Niels Andersens Vej 65, 2900 Hellerup, Denmark; e-mail, mc@heart.dk. Current Author Addresses: Drs. Charlot, Ahlehoff, Norgaard, Jørgensen, Sørensen, Hansen, Madsen, Torp-Pedersen, and Gislason: Department of Cardiology, Copenhagen University Hospital Gentofte, PA Research, Post 67, Niels Andersens Vej 65, 2900 Hellerup, Denmark. Dr. Abildstrøm: Department of Cardiology, Copenhagen University Hospital Bispebjerg, Bispebjerg Bakke 23, 2400 København NV, Denmark. Dr. Køber: The Heart Centre, Copenhagen University Hospital Rigshospitalet, Blegdamsvej 9, 2100 Copenhagen, Denmark. Author Contributions: Conception and design: M. Charlot, C. Torp-Pedersen, G. Gislason. Analysis and interpretation of the data: M. Charlot, O. Ahlehoff, M.L. Norgaard, C.H. Jørgensen, P.R. Hansen, L. Køber, C. Torp-Pedersen, G. Gislason. Drafting of the article: M. Charlot, P.R. Hansen, C. Torp-Pedersen, G. Gislason. Critical revision of the article for important intellectual content: M. Charlot, O. Ahlehoff, M.L. Norgaard, C.H. Jørgensen, R. Sørensen, S.Z. Abildstrøm, P.R. Hansen, J.K. Madsen, L. Køber, C. Torp-Pedersen, G. Gislason. Final approval of the article: M. Charlot, O. Ahlehoff, M.L. Norgaard, R. Sørensen, S.Z. Abildstrøm, P.R. Hansen, J.K. Madsen, L. Køber, C. Torp-Pedersen, G. Gislason. Statistical expertise: M. Charlot, S.Z. Abildstrøm, L. Køber, C. Torp-Pedersen, G. Gislason. Obtaining of funding: M. Charlot, J.K. Madsen, C. Torp-Pedersen. Administrative, technical, or logistic support: M. Charlot, O. Ahlehoff, J.K. Madsen, C. Torp-Pedersen, G. Gislason. Collection and assembly of data: M. Charlot, S.Z. Abildstrøm, C. Torp-Pedersen, G. Gislason. This article has been corrected. For original version, click "Original Version (PDF)" in column 2.. Primary Funding Source:. —The Editors Clopidogrel is a platelet inhibitor that reduces the risk for new ischemic cardiovascular events, in combination with aspirin, in patients treated either medically or with percutaneous coronary intervention (PCI) after myocardial infarction (1 - 3). Proton-pump inhibitors (PPIs) are often given in combination with clopidogrel and aspirin to reduce the risk for upper gastrointestinal bleeding. Clopidogrel is a prodrug that is metabolized to an active metabolite primarily by the hepatic P-450 enzyme 2C19 (4). Because PPIs are metabolized by the same hepatic isoenzyme (5), concern has been raised that PPIs might inhibit the conversion of clopidogrel to its active metabolite and thereby diminish its clinical benefit. Recent studies show that PPIs reduce the ex vivo inhibition of platelet aggregation achieved during treatment with clopidogrel (6 - 8). Clinical studies involving selected populations (9 - 13) show conflicting results regarding risk for adverse cardiovascular events associated with the dual use of clopidogrel and PPIs. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (14 - 15) and the European Medicines Agency (16) have recently discouraged the combined use of these agents unless strongly indicated, while emphasizing the need for further studies. We sought to examine the risk for adverse cardiovascular outcomes related to concomitant use of PPIs and clopidogrel compared with that of PPIs alone in a large, unselected cohort of patients hospitalized with first-time myocardial infarction. In Denmark, every resident is provided with a permanent and unique civil registration number that enables individual-level linkage between different registries. Our nationwide cohort study linked Danish national registry data relevant to hospitalizations, pharmacy prescription claims, and deaths for 4.65 million people. For all hospital admissions in Denmark, the Danish National Patient Registry registers a primary diagnosis and, if appropriate, 1 or more secondary diagnoses, as defined by the International Classification of Diseases. The Danish Registry of Medicinal Product Statistics (a national prescription registry) records every prescription dispensed from pharmacies in Denmark, and each drug is classified according to the International Anatomical Therapeutical Chemical system. Information on vital status and causes of death were obtained, respectively, from the Danish Civil Registry and the National Causes of Death Registry. The Danish Data Protection Agency approved the study, and the data made available to us were such that individuals could not be identified. Retrospective registry studies do not require ethical approval in Denmark. The authors had full access to the data and take full responsibility for its integrity. From the National Patient Registry, we identified all consecutive patients older than 30 years who were hospitalized with acute myocardial infarction between 2000 and 2006 in Denmark. To ensure the homogeneity of our population, patients with previous myocardial infarction and patients with partially missing data were excluded. We depended on patients filling prescriptions to identify users. Our primary analysis included patients who survived at least 30 days because we reasoned that a 30-day period would facilitate correct classification of drug use; most patients who filled their prescriptions did so within 30 days (Appendix Figure 1). We also examined the sensitivity of the results to the 30-day cutoff by examining alternative cohorts that included patients who survived 7, 14, and 21 days after myocardial infarction. Patients who emigrated were censored at the time of emigration. Using the national prescription registry, we identified all prescriptions of drugs claimed up to 90 days after discharge (Table 1), as well as all prescriptions for PPIs and H2-antagonists claimed within 1 year after discharge. Information on medication exposure for each day of follow-up was also obtained, including dispensing date, type, quantity, dose of drug, and days of drug supply. No data on patient-reported adherence were available. We defined current use as the period from the prescription filling date to the calculated end of the period drug supply. Of note, the national prescription registry has demonstrated accuracy (17), and the use of clopidogrel is reasonably stable over time in this cohort, with a 1-year persistency of 89% after 2004 (18). The primary outcome was a composite of rehospitalization for myocardial infarction or stroke or cardiovascular death. Secondary outcomes included all-cause death, cardiovascular death, and rehospitalization for myocardial infarction, stroke, or gastrointestinal bleeding. Follow-up was up to 1 year after discharge. The diagnoses of acute myocardial infarction and stroke have been validated in the Danish National Patient Registry (19 - 20). Comorbid conditions were established on the basis of diagnoses noted at the time of discharge from the index myocardial infarction, as specified in the Ontario acute myocardial infarction mortality prediction rule (21). The comorbidity index was further enhanced by adding diagnoses from the year before the event, as was done by Rasmussen and colleagues (22). Concomitant use of loop diuretics or diabetes medication was a proxy for heart failure or diabetes, respectively, to define high-risk subgroups of patients, as was done by Gislason and colleagues (23). We used 2 statistical methods to estimate the risk associated with PPI treatment with or without concomitant treatment with clopidogrel. First, we used Cox proportional hazards models to derive hazard ratios (HRs) and 95% CIs. These models were adjusted for the variables shown in Table 1, including age, sex, PCI, income, concomitant medical treatment, and comorbid conditions. Exposure to PPIs was included as a time-dependent covariate. Second, we performed a propensity score–matched analysis, in which we quantified a propensity score for the likelihood of receiving a PPI in the first year after discharge by using multivariate logistic regression analysis, conditional on the baseline covariates specified in Table 1. Using the Greedy matching macro (; accessed on 27 July 2010), we matched each case patient to a control participant on the basis of propensity score. Use of PPIs was included as a time-dependent covariate, and propensity score–matched Kaplan–Meier estimates were generated to show event rates and time-to-event curves. To assess the robustness of our results, we performed a series of additional analyses, including an analysis that evaluated how large the effect of an unmeasured confounder would need to be to explain the results, subgroup analyses of different types of PPIs, and a dose-dependent analysis (24). We also assessed the variation of both PPI use and outcome between hospitals and performed a stratified analysis according to PCI and aspirin use. All statistical calculations were performed with SAS, version 9.2 (SAS Institute, Cary, North Carolina). Our study was funded by the Danish Medical Research Council and the Danish Heart Foundation. The study sponsors had no influence on the study design, data collection, analysis, data interpretation, or decision to submit the manuscript for publication. A total of 71 987 patients were admitted with myocardial infarction from 2000 to 2006 (Figure 1). Of these, we excluded 1889 patients with previous myocardial infarction, 13 324 patients who died during hospitalization or within 30 days of discharge, and 368 patients with partially missing data. Of the 56 406 patients included in the study, 24 704 (43.8%) claimed a prescription for clopidogrel within 30 days of discharge (Appendix Figure 1). Of these, 6753 patients (27.3%) claimed at least 1 prescription for PPIs within 1 year of discharge. The use of PPIs was equal in the 2 cohorts and independent of clopidogrel use (Appendix Table 1). MI = myocardial infarction; PPI = proton-pump inhibitor. Table 1 shows baseline characteristics of the study sample at the time of inclusion. Patients who received clopidogrel were younger, were more often male, received less concomitant medical treatment, had fewer comorbid conditions, and more often had PCI than patients who did not receive clopidogrel. Patients who received PPIs were older, were more often female, received more concomitant medical treatment, and had more comorbid conditions than those who did not receive PPIs. In the first year after inclusion, 9137 (16.2%) cardiovascular deaths and rehospitalizations for myocardial infarction or strokes were registered (Appendix Table 2). Clopidogrel was associated with lower event rates, and PPIs were associated with higher event rates. The event rates were highest among patients who received a PPI but not clopidogrel (26.3%). The time-dependent Cox proportional hazards regression analysis (Table 2), based on patients who filled prescriptions for clopidogrel within 30 days of discharge, demonstrated an increased risk for the primary end point (cardiovascular death or rehospitalization for myocardial infarction or stroke) among patients who received both clopidogrel and a PPI (HR, 1.29 [95% CI, 1.17 to 1.42]; P < 0.001) compared with those who did not receive a PPI. Among patients who did not receive clopidogrel, PPI therapy was associated with a similar increase in risk (HR, 1.29 [CI, 1.21 to 1.37]; P < 0.001). Results were consistent for the risk for all secondary outcomes (Table 2). The hazard rate ratio of the effect of the interaction between PPI and clopidogrel for the primary outcome analysis was 0.98 (CI, 0.88 to 1.10; P = 0.72). Using the propensity score generated from logistic regression models conditional on baseline covariates, we matched 6556 patients who received both clopidogrel and a PPI with the same number of patients who received clopidogrel but not a PPI. We also matched 8437 patients who did not receive clopidogrel but did receive a PPI with the same number of patients who received neither clopidogrel nor a PPI. Use of PPIs was included as a time-dependent covariate. The c-statistics were 0.65 and 0.65 for the clopidogrel and nonclopidogrel groups, respectively, which indicates an acceptable discriminative power for the models. Table 1 shows the baseline characteristics of the propensity score–matched populations and P values for the between-group differences (Appendix Tables 3 and 4 and Appendix Figure 2, provide further details). For use of a PPI in combination with clopidogrel, with no PPI therapy as the reference, the HR for cardiovascular death or rehospitalization for myocardial infarction or stroke was 1.35 (CI, 1.22 to 1.50; P < 0.001), whereas the HR for use of a PPI without clopidogrel was 1.43 (CI, 1.34 to 1.53; P < 0.001). Analysis of the risk for the secondary outcomes generated similar results (Table 2). The propensity score–matched Kaplan–Meier analysis (Figure 2) depicts the elevated risk for cardiovascular death or rehospitalization for myocardial infarction or stroke for patients who received PPIs with or without clopidogrel. PPI = proton-pump inhibitor. Of the 15 642 patients who claimed at least 1 prescription for PPIs, 4698 (30.0%) claimed prescriptions for pantoprazole, 2798 (17.9%) for lansoprazole, 2717 (17.4%) for omeprazole, 5316 (34.0%) for esomeprazole, and 113 (0.01%) for rabeprazole. Results from the time-dependent, Cox proportional hazards regression analysis and the Kaplan–Meier cumulative hazard estimates demonstrated no difference in risk associated with the type of PPI independent of clopidogrel treatment (Appendix Figures 3 and 4). We did not include rabeprazole data in this analysis because the cohort was too small to generate reliable results. Time-dependent, propensity score–matched Cox proportional hazards analysis. PPI = proton-pump inhibitor. * Used as reference. In the propensity score matching based on baseline covariates that predicted treatment with a PPI, the risk reduction for gastrointestinal bleeding in patients who received clopidogrel and a PPI was 0.82 (CI, 0.63 to 1.07; P = 0.140) compared with patients who did not receive a PPI. Therapy with a PPI had no effect in the group that did not receive clopidogrel (risk reduction, 0.99 [CI, 0.80 to 1.22]; P = 0.89). We estimated that an unmeasured confounder would have to elevate risk by 2.5 to 3 to fully explain the increased risk for cardiovascular events observed with either PPI or clopidogrel and PPI (Appendix Figure 5). To ensure the validity of using day 30 after discharge as the inclusion day, we examined differences in baseline characteristics at discharge and at day 30. We found that most patients (83.5%) who died in the first 30 days were from the cohort that had not filled prescriptions for clopidogrel or a PPI (Appendix Table 5). Examinations of the study cohort at various assembly time points, including 7 and 21 days after myocardial infarction, revealed no differences in the hazard rate ratios of the effect of the interaction between PPIs and clopidogrel (Table 3). Size needed to account for the elevation of risk from 1 to 1.29. OREC = association between drug use category and confounder; RRCD = association between confounder and disease outcome. An analysis subdivided by patients seen before and after 2004 provided no evidence of any differences in the effect of PPIs on outcome (P = 0.14). Interaction analyses between relevant subgroups of patients, PPI therapy, and outcome showed interactions (P = 0.035) for concomitant treatment with a PPI and clopidogrel and PCI, with a statistically significant higher risk for cardiovascular death or rehospitalization for myocardial infarction or stroke in a stratified analysis (HR, 1.40 [CI, 1.19 to 1.64]) than in the patient groups who did not have PCI (HR, 1.21 [CI, 1.07 to 1.38]) (Appendix Figure 6). Stratifying patients by concomitant aspirin treatment showed no effect. Additional sensitivity analyses demonstrated no evidence of any clustering between hospitals and no evidence of any difference between high and low PPI doses (Appendix Figure 7 and Appendix Table. We found no evidence that concomitant PPI therapy increases risk for adverse cardiovascular events in patients who receive clopidogrel. We conducted a MEDLINE search to find major studies between 2003 and 2010 that investigated possible interactions between clopidogrel and PPIs. Gilard and colleagues (6 - 7) first drew attention to a possible interaction in a double-blind study that showed a reduced ex vivo antiplatelet effect of clopidogrel when combined with a PPI. Other studies (8,14,20 - 21) have confirmed this finding. An intense debate is now occurring about whether the diminished ex vivo antiplatelet effect is of clinically significant importance. Several large observational studies (9 - 11,25) found concomitant use of clopidogrel and a PPI to be associated with increased risk for death or rehospitalization for myocardial infarction. However, these studies were not based on populations that represent the average patient who has had a myocardial infarction. For example, the studies from Juurlink and colleagues (9) and Rassen and associates (25) were based on retired patients older than 65 years, and Ho and colleagues (10) presented data from U.S. veterans (98% of whom were men). In contrast, a post hoc analysis of the randomized TRITON-TIMI 38 (Trial to assess Improvement in Therapeutic Outcomes by optimizing platelet Inhibition with prasugrel Thrombolysis In Myocardial Infarction 38) (12) found no increased risk for cardiovascular events with the combined use of PPIs and clopidogrel and no difference in risk between the various types of PPIs. A post hoc analysis of the randomized CREDO (Clopidogrel for the Reduction of Events During Observation) trial (11) also found baseline PPI use to be associated with increased cardiovascular events, regardless of whether clopidogrel was used. These studies were based on selected patients eligible for randomized trials, who were usually younger and less likely to have significant comorbid conditions than many patients who are prescribed both clopidogrel and a PPI. The prospective, randomized COGENT (Clopidogrel and the Optimization of Gastrointestinal Events) study (26), which was stopped before inclusion of patients was complete, evaluated the cardiovascular safety of concomitant treatment with omeprazole and clopidogrel and found no evidence of increased cardiovascular risk. Similar results were recently reported by Ray and colleagues (13). Of note, preliminary results from the COGENT study demonstrated an increased risk for gastrointestinal bleeding in patients who received dual antiplatelet treatment without PPI therapy. This increased bleeding risk was confirmed by Yasuda and colleagues (27), which emphasizes the importance of establishing the cardiovascular safety of concomitant PPI treatment. Ray and colleagues' study (13) also illustrated the efficacy of PPI therapy in combination with dual antiplatelet treatment by showing a remarkable reduction in risk for gastrointestinal bleeding in patients who received combination therapy. Our study furthers the research in this area by investigating the risk for cardiovascular events in a nationwide, unselected population that represents the average patient who has had a myocardial infarction. We demonstrated that PPI therapy did not modify the effect of clopidogrel on cardiovascular outcomes and that PPI use was associated with increased cardiovascular risk independent of concomitant use of clopidogrel. We suspect that the increased cardiovascular risk in all patients who received a PPI can be explained by differences in baseline comorbid conditions that were unmeasured or measured imperfectly. Such unmeasured confounders would have to elevate the risk 2.5- to 3-fold to explain the observed increased risk for cardiovascular events. This is a large but potentially plausible amount of risk elevation for a confounder or a mix of confounders, particularly because these registry data lacked detailed information on risk factors, such as smoking, lipid levels, body mass index, and left ventricle ejection fraction. We also demonstrated a reduction in risk for gastrointestinal bleeding related to PPI therapy for patients who received clopidogrel, although it did not reach statistical significance. In Denmark, PPIs are prescribed mainly for patients with a clear indication, such as peptic ulcer. Thus, we expected the cohort of patients treated with PPIs to be heavily confounded by the indication for PPIs and to have a higher bleeding risk than patients in countries where guidelines recommend routine use of PPIs in combination with dual antiplatelet therapy. This may explain why our study did not find a statistically significant protective effect of PPIs on risk for gastrointestinal bleeding. Previous studies (9 - 10) have reported that the risk for adverse cardiovascular outcomes was particularly increased by concomitant treatment with omeprazole and clopidogrel, on the basis of proposed differences in drug-specific metabolism and diminished antiplatelet effects ex vivo (6 - 7,23). Our data set provided no evidence of differences in risk between the subtypes of PPIs, with or without clopidogrel. Sensitivity analyses also provided no evidence of differences in risk related to heart failure, diabetes, age, hospitals, or PPI dosages. However, we did find a statistically significant interaction between PCI and PPIs in the group that received clopidogrel. Several considerations and limitations may affect the interpretation of our results. We had no self-reported patient data regarding adherence. We were also dependent on patients filling prescriptions after discharge, and we chose day 30 as the inclusion day for primary analyses to avoid a potential immortal time bias. The comparison of baseline characteristics between day 30 and discharge (Table 1 and Appendix Table 5) illustrates this potential bias, because 83.5% of the patients who died in the first 30 days were in the cohort who did not fill a prescription for either clopidogrel or a PPI. The high 30-day mortality rate in this cohort can be explained by the inclusion of high-risk patients who may not have received clopidogrel or a PPI by the choice of their physicians, whereas other high-risk patients who were actually given prescriptions at discharge could have been too sick to fill their prescriptions or could have been readmitted to the hospital before they filled them. Of note, we examined the cohort at various assembly time points, including 7 and 21 days after myocardial infarction, and found no differences in the hazard rate ratios of the effect of the interaction between PPIs and clopidogrel in relation to assembly time point. Our study's strengths include the large size of our cohort based on a nationwide, unselected population that represents average patients in a contemporary clinical setting who have had a myocardial infarction. The Danish National Patient Registry includes all hospital admissions in Denmark and is therefore not affected by selection bias stemming from selective inclusion of specific hospitals, health insurance systems, or age groups. The concordance between drug dispensing and drug consumption is probably high, because reimbursement of drug expenses is only partial, and most drugs, including PPIs, were not available over the counter in Denmark during the study period (exceptions include aspirin and H2-antagonists). Because of the partial reimbursement of drug expenses by Danish authorities, we reasonably assumed that a patient who claimed a prescription from the pharmacy intended to take the drug. Our study has additional limitations. Clopidogrel resistance has been linked to genotype polymorphisms. Although we have no knowledge of the precise distribution of these polymorphisms in our largely white study population, several studies (28 - 29) based in the countries that surround Denmark found variations in relevant genes that matched those reported earlier for white populations. However, generalizing these data to other racial and ethnic groups should be done with caution. Finally, we had no information on the indications for PPI therapy. In conclusion, PPIs seem to be associated with an increased risk for adverse cardiovascular outcomes regardless of clopidogrel use, but concomitant PPI and clopidogrel use was not associated with any additional increase in risk over that observed for patients who received a PPI alone. We believe that the increased cardiovascular risk associated with PPI use independent of clopidogrel is caused by unmeasured confounders. These results seem to refute concerns about increased risk for ischemic events during concomitant PPI and clopidogrel between the different PPIs would have been more helpful in making conclusions here as different PPIs have different levels of interactions with clopidogrel. The mechanisms of drug interaction is also of interest in this era of polypharmacy None declared.

I considered calling this post Falling Short, to soften the blow. But instead decided to go balls to the wall with what I really mean. Failure. How can I stop being afraid of it if I can’t even stop being afraid to say it? Dylan said, “There’s no success like failure, and failure’s no success at all.” Whatever that means. But I like the sound of it. I feel there is a potential there that I, with my paralytic fear of failure, can’t quite grasp. My dad says your successes can’t exceed 25% of your failures, so get out there and fuck up! (paraphrased) That’s a little more straight forward. failed to plant succession, harvested too much at once, washed when i shouldn't have, stored wet in the fridge=2 gallons of rotten salad greens Erica from NW Edibles recently outed the naked, cold fact that they are spending $2,000 to have a chicken coop built for them. Wow, brave girl. I would have hidden that one under my bed for sure. In a locked box. That’s what they invented lies for, Erica. I’m not mentioning Erica because I think their $2,000 chicken coop represents failure. Please don’t misunderstand! It’s dangerous ground we tread here. But she lays bare her feelings of falling short of that shiny Urban Homesteader Ideal, and I know just what she means. I know how life can lead you on a crazy circuitous path, which cannot be traveled backwards, and then deposit you *BAM* where you least expected to end up. Picking yourself up, dusting off and finding a way to keep on is the stuff of saints as far as I’m concerned. Or beetles. Myself, when fear of failure or the associated guilt of transgression hits, I can sometimes be completely incapacitated. I’ve abandoned many a project when the first failures start rolling in, or even just because failure lurked around the next bend. And that ain’t no good, no how. Maybe it’s just me. One of my little Issues. But I’ve been fascinated by my crippling fear of failure and it’s many reprecussions throughout my life. Long, loooong ago, when I worked as a “handler” for a dog musher back in Alaska, it was my job to run the dogs every day. Riding a dog sled, particularly on a low snow winter like that one was, is a skill that took me months to even get an edge on. I had a little epiphany on one of the many occasions that I was being dragged behind the tipped over sled (never, never let go of the sled), face down over the fast moving snow. I realized that when the sled went round a corner, I needed to lean in to the curve. But instead my fear of the speed made me lean outward, in a visceral desire to abandon the sled. Leaning out on a curve tips the sled over. Simple physics. I don’t believe, as some do, that your thoughts somehow energistically manifest into your life to create what you want or fear. But my sled epiphany made me see how fear drives me to act in a certain way, a fearful way, that sometimes causes the very thing I fear to happen. It’s not magic, it’s logic. With a heavy dose of irony. i loved this lemon tree. then i forgot to water it. for several months. now it's dying, covered with tiny lemons, and dying. damn me! In addition to the negative of sabotaging our efforts, there’s a big, important positive to failure. Nothing is more instructive. Imagine if you refused to let your kid play with pen and paper until they could write a perfect ‘A.’ Obviously kids have to practice a lot before they learn to write, and ‘practice’ means fucking around with a pen and paper. Each distinct failure teaches us so many, many things that simple success can never offer. The trick to abolishing our fear of failure and embracing it instead as our benificent teacher (a trick that I have failed to learn as of yet) is not to let our every action define us. Isn’t that what I strive to teach my kids? You may do a mean thing to a friend, that doesn’t make you a mean person. You may fail to consume all the cases of marmalade you so eagerly sliced, cooked and canned last year and instead have to dump them down the drain to free the jars for other purposes (ahem) but that does not mean you are a failure. Another point which must be sharpened is that a lot of what we perceive as “failure” is actually only failure to live up to an impossible fantasy of perfection. Take Erica and her coop. Some part of her might feel that she has failed to be the uber-cool urban homesteader who does everything herself on a shoestring budget. But in fact, all she has done is prioritize her time. There’s a limited quantity of it, don’t you know. Actually you might not know. I’m not sure whether I really do. The capitalist system and our unleashed advertising industry has worked very hard to make us believe that there are no such limits. This is really a whole post of it’s own that has lay dormant in my mind for months. I believe it affects every aspect of our lives and I have much too much to say about it. But, relevant to this subject, they saturate us with the unspoken premise that there are no limits, no need to choose priorities, you can have it all! (just sign here). There follows a seemingly reasonable equation: If ‘all’ is possible, and I can’t achieve ‘all,’ I failed. I assure you, it’s the equation that’s at fault! Even though I understand this well with my intellect, that deeper core of my brain that advertising plugs straight into still Believes. And suffers the all the guilt, shame, and fear. It’s really a lot of what this blog has ended up being about for me. Confronting the impossible expectations we are suffused with. Attempting to slowly erase the 33 years (and counting) of culture telling me I can and should have it all. Teasing out the important bits from the hectic hairball of modern life, making my priorities, and fighting back the scaly beasts of disillusionment, guilt and failure. Back to the cave with you, foul creatures! Beloved Boo (once again), If I could be there to give you a hug, I would. If I could be there to show you a photo of me hanging (literally) from the rafters after a night of full-bore indiscretion (not a good image I know) I would. And why? Cause A) I love outing myself so that no one, no one, no one, will ever take my life history as being neat and B) Cause messiness and failure is part of the journey. Holy crap girl. What you think? Even those who look like they got their shit together don’t. Or, if they do, it took a good measure of facing off with the folly of ego, self righteousness and plan old fashion head-up-the-ass-ism. We are all broken creatures trying to find truth in a system that suggests success as some consequence of good choices. That’s a lie. We have all had a cookie dangled in front of our faces — this life, safe life, good life if you make the right choices. Ha. Fact is, we are all round and soft spirits in a linear and harsh world and it can (and has) made life way confusing. We are all working to undo that capitalist narrative (and you are right to intuit a huge thorn there). We are all banging our heads against that system with some of us are more willing to admit it. The gig is up though. So when you tell us that you tossed the marmalade down the sink you open a hole in everyone else’s precious stories so they, too, can come out and say….What the hell is this life really about? How do we live up in here? And then we get to talk for real like. Yes, there is beauty. Lots of it. But I’m here to tell you there is lots and lots of failure. I’m pushing 60 and there is still a whole lot of failure out there, in here, and all around. But like Ram Dass says….”You never get rid of your demons you just invite them in for tea.” Good one that. Too bad you got rid of your marmalade cause I hear demons like it with a spot of toast. So breathe and accept the brokeness. You will never outrun it. And ignore Dylan. He is a wordsmith but can be full of shit like the rest of us. Besides, ever since he did that Victoria Secret ad I have had a few well chosen words for him. Like…..yeah you don’t want to be a cultural icon but do you have to be a sell out to prove it? But then we go way back. I’ve had a crush on him since I was 15 and used to think he was actually saying something important. Too bad for him I’m turning my gaze to Leonard Cohen – a wordsmith you can still trust. I should have known. My top three songwriters: Dylan, Leonard Cohen, and Ani DiFranco. I know Dylans full of shit, but my can he turn a phrase. Hang in there girl! “Just keep swimming….” Ah, sweet, sweet, nasty arsed failure. I bought a fucking hair straightener today. It came in the pack with a hair dryer. Cos I didn’t have a hair dryer. I don’t know what to do with either of them. Enuf said?…. (Harriet, if you want a sweet man to listen to, may I suggest Xavier Rudd? He’s a gentle, sweet man, with many musical talents. Google, youtube-ify, and enjoy.) Loved your failures! Not so that I could point and laugh, but because they’re so like mine. I have about a decade on you, but I remember my ephiphany moment – the day I realized that my failures were not something to run from, but well earned tuition. Sometimes I need a swift kick in the rear end to remind me to do something better. Othertimes I need that kick to tell me to back off and slow things down. Either way, it’s a cosmic wake-up call and I’m finally, finally listening. :) Thanks for letting me know others struggle with fear of failure. My blogging is haphazard b/c I often spend way to much time worry if a post sucks or what people will think. I end up frozen by the fear of failing at blogging of all things. :) Nice to remember to not let it paralyze me. Can’t learn without fucking up a few times. When we are kids we get that but when we are adults we just seem to think we should be perfect at all times. Now if I can just take that feeling of empowerment with me. Oh, the $2000 I can cop to. It’s the unending frustration bordering on resentment that’s growing for my sweet infant son who will not go the fuck to sleep. At all. Not for naps, not at night. 8 months of sleep deprivation and I am about to lose my mind. But that’s just between us. Can’t put that on *my* blog, it wouldn’t be relevant. ;) I did feel guilt over paying for the convenience of someone else building the coop. You have it exactly right: the *image* of DIY Urban Homesteady Girl isn’t: hey, here’s some money to fix my problem (lack of coop). It’s, “Hey, I can tackle anything! I’m capable, I’m competent! I can do it all by myself!” And that’s just not reality. I try to remind myself that a problem that can be fixed by throwing money at it, assuming you have the money to do so, isn’t a problem at all. It’s just an expense. Cancer is a problem, addiction is a problem, laying on the floor sobbing because you’re beyond exhausted and you’re so pigheaded that you keep trying to keep going, even though your brain hasn’t had quiet time for 8 months…well, that’s *my* problem. $2000 is just bartered time. If you figure out how to get through to yourself and stop trying to do it all, will you please, please tell me? Great post, per usual. Erica, We need to talk. About babies, and not so much babies anymore, and sleeping and not so much sleeping. I’d direct you to my archives, but I hear you’ve already read them all ;) I may have missed a few. I spent a good several afternoons on my ass on the couch with your blog but you’ve been at this for awhile; there’s material here. May have missed a month or two. Got a specific post (posts) I should check out? Once at a monastic retreat, I was very worried about screwing up the amazingly fussy and precise Zen rituals we were going to be doing the next day. I had only recently been lay ordained and though I had my robes, bowls, etc- all the trappings of spiritual materialism, I didn’t have my head very squared away yet. I diminished myself as only a sort of “home-school” Buddhist from small-town Alaska, and was in the midst of real deal big wigs in brown robes and was really afraid of messing up big time. I told the director. She said: “look, as a Buddhist, you know that all things are; impermanent, interconnected, and imperfect. Anytime you do anything for the first time, it’s going to be a little rough- even after doing something a zillion times you can still screw up.” “Whatever it is- just do the best you can with what you got at the time where you are. It’s all you can ever do. Embrace your awkwardness.” she said with a little exasperation. (I think that’s a kind zen paraphrase of “suck it up, cupcake!”) Anyhow “Embrace your awkwardness” has been a very helpful, as is the (obvious) knowledge that nothing is ever perfect. Though sometimes it takes some VERY big arms to embrace my awkwardness….. Besides, if we waited to be perfect before doing anything, nothing would ever get done. I went through some of our readings and found one that kind of speaks to this. I’ve attached it below. All the best, I love your blog posts. K Saying Yes to an Open Heart Diana Winston- Buddhadharma, Summer 2010 Zen, time after time, you learn to say yes. Yes to your jagged breathing, yes to your itchy scalp. Yes to the chainsaw dude across the street, yes to your grief and pain and shame and grandiosity and fear. Not because you want to act on these things, but because they’re true, and fleeting, and simply part of who you are at the moment (but not even the half of who you really are). Your nervous system begins to relax- at last you’re acknowledging the truth of things. Saying yes means attending to and surrendering to your experience, whatever it is. It means feeling your body when you’re in the midst of a strong reaction or emotion, and letting whatever you find simply be there. It means coming back to your breath, or this present moment, again and again. It means noticing that thoughts and feelings and sensations come and go. You say yes to your pride, your stupidity, your murderous rage. Naturally you don’t act on you murderous rage, but you allow it to be true within you. It is a very inclusive practice. Nothing is ever left out. You discover that if you are pushing away your experience, even ever so slightly, you mindfulness is not fully realized, no is say no. “Oh, Jeez,. Hey Kelly! Great to get a comment from you. Great essay too. This open heart stuff is where it’s at, but oh so hard to pull off regularly… Ken Robinson did a good speech in which he talked, amongst other things, about the value of failure. It’s called Do schools kill creativity, look it up on YouTube. He’s not a homeschooling guy or anything like that, just saying it like it. He’s talking about the British schooling system but making a very serious point about The importance of failure, as part of the learning curve. I really like what he has to say about education. Oh by the way, I used the quote, thank you! Have a looksey over at Feet on the Ground and Head in the Clouds. Erica- My boy did not sleep for 8 months either – at all, or only in two hour slots. Drove me nuts but it did change and he became utterly adorable and self sufficient. Just wasn’t a sleeper. It will get better. Kylie -Thanks, anyone with a sweet gentle nature is worth listening to. Stringz – Current issue of Oregon Humanities Magazine is on Failure. Might make for good reading. As so often is the case, so much good chewable brain food over here. Thanks! Great post, same stuff that’s been going through my head lately too… this Urban Homesteading Ideals business. As per the chickens thing, I wrote on Sharon Astyk’s recent blog post, chickens are the ultimate urban homesteading ‘accessory’, aren’t they, and they are integral & seemingly essential in many ways. Yet, we are waiting til get ours, til we have time & energy to look after them properly, but I tell you, we won’t be building our own house/ coop after all… same as Erica, we idealised it, we even have some resources, but we don’t have the time or the skills. Erica did a great thing though, in outsourcing to someone who needs the money & the job. In the mean time, I am going to buy local eggs, organic fertilisers and be amused by my children’s antics instead of chickens… and the world will be OK! I don’t think you need a hug, I think you need a high five! Good on you, for having the guts to throw out the marmalade and know that maybe you don’t need so much next time around. It’s something I deal with… I don’t want to waste anything, I *should* be making the most of an abundance BUT if in the end, I may have wasted energy, resources and my own time to preserve something that gets thrown out anyways. How to know, though, that’s the trick and the skills I am gaining now (hopefully) as a wannabe urban homesteader. And remind myself how lucky I am to be in a position to make mistakes… Fantastic post and great comments! Failure…yikes, the fear of failure. When I get down to it most of my “stuff” is connected to a fear of failure is some way, shape or form. Staying in a job that sucks my soul for one. Like Erica mentioned, I’m pigheaded- I will struggle and agonize and try to figure out anyway to do it ourselves- to the point of making myself bonkers. And with some things, it just makes me miserable. It loses the joy. If it causes so much angst is it even worth it? ….heres my great fear… that I’m not even trying to do amazing stuff and still I can’t keep up…just as I sort-of, kind-of get one basic thing in hand, say dinner, theres always some other disaster or three to trip me over (literally). All I want is to have an abundent backyard, clean home (full of beautiful, me made wonderful things), be trim, fit and healthy, have some time with the fella, time with the kidlets, time for books… But as soon as one thing has a tick, the others start smelling, yelling, dieing… Yep, my fear is that what I want is simple but that I just don’t have …. what ever it takes to have it. Thanks again for the eloquent philosophising. I keep wondering how this gift you have can A) reach as broad an audeiuence as possible and B) give back to you (in dare i say it, a monetary way). It would be great to have a class / group / forum for parents where you could facilitate these kinda discussions … compulsory for all would be parents of course (but they wouldn’t get it yet would they?). “HOw to love failure and your new child”. Catchy huh? This would of course happen in your free evennings…. Katj I’ve been told this in studying yoga, but I’ve seen it in many venues of life…a certain amount of tension that is necessary in order to sustain life. It is that very tension that maintains the balance. If there is no challenge, you lose muscle tone. You lose inspiration. Those challenges and potential failures are what keep us learning. I’ve been on both sides of it. I’m an ambitious person by nature, usually striving for something. But I’ve also had a period of life where I had many things organized just as I wanted them. Or at least, as I thought they should be…and there was a certain limpness to it. I had blocked out a lot of things that weren’t as I wanted them to be because I couldn’t change them. In the end, I had to open up to the stuff that I hadn’t dared to do, even if it meant giving up some of what I thought I was supposed to be/do/have. And it has turned out to be true. So rewarding. …I guess the point is to stay in that precious, precarious spot, right on the crest of the wave… and sometimes you pitch head over heels and get tumbled in the surf. You land on the beach with salt water in every orifice, coughing. But that’s ok. You’re really not much worse for the wear and besides, all waves end up back at the beach anyway, no matter how you get there. Hahaha, who knew it wasn’t a destination but an endless cycle. Advertising would have us think otherwise. Like getting in shape. As if you were going to “get there” and it was going to last. :) Apparently it’s not about achieving perfection but the humble, ongoing act of striving. Hmm, is it bad etiquette to leave comments on older posts? I look forward to the day that “limits” post finishes cooking and oozes out of your brain- or more realistically is carefully and skillfully sculpted- (unless I’ve missed it and am completely showing my sloppy reading skills just now). I spend a lot of my brain power mulling over a lot of those very same ideas. I second-guess my own eloquence into oblivion, so the thoughts don’t produce much more than “nnmeeeee…baaaaaaaad….” when I try to voice them. You’ve got your voice much more sorted out, it seems. (“Work for my entertainment!” said the stranger on the Internet.)

About | Projects | Docs | Forums | Lists | Bugs | Get Gentoo! | Support | Planet | Wiki Anand Buddhdev posted <42D3A936.8060306@...>, excerpted below, on Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:27:50 +0200: > I'm getting a new AMD64-based computer, and I'd like to run gentoo on it. > I have been doing a bit of reading about running linux on AMD64, and it > seems that in general, it's not a? Or was there a lot of frustration involved. I've used linux > and BSD systems for a long time, so I'm used to hacking, and I'm not > afraid to mess around with scripts and compilers. But I've reached a point > when I'd just like to be able to install a system, and have it work. >. > >? Wow! Where to start? ... Keep in mind that the following describes more the issues you might come across, than the good things, so it's going to seem FAR worse than it actually is. Going 32-bit is slightly easier, as you mention, altho 64-bit is getting more mainstream every day. 100% 32-bit mode uses the generally larger amd64 cache (normally 1M L3 cache, compared to perhaps half that on most 32-bit only processors), but doesn't make use of the other strengths of the amd64 architecture, the biggest one of which is probably the expanded number of hardware registers available in 64-bit mode. x86 has traditionally been a rather register-limited arch, and the amd64 CPUs in 32-bit mode remain so for compatibility reasons, so the additional registers only come into play in 64-bit mode. OTOH, for many things, unless you have more than 4G memory, 32-bit is quite enough and conserves resources a bit better. For that reason, on archs less register bound than x86(32), the switch to 64-bit mode often has more downside for many uses, than it does upside. x86_64, however, due to those extra registers only available in 64-bit mode and because x86(32) has always been register bound, with a fairly limited number of them, tends to swing the balance rather further in favor of 64-bit mode than with other archs -- 64-bit performance is often markedly better than 32-bit performance of the same source code on the exact same CPU and hardware, the only difference being whether it's compiled with -m32 or -m64, 32- or 64-bit. So... yes, I'd say that while possible, installing only 32-bit Linux on AMD64 is indeed wasting resources, to some extent. ... You've obviously been doing your research, and correctly found that the main issues tend to be in cases of binary-only releases of various plugins and codecs. If it's available in source-code form, it's generally available for use in 64-bit mode on amd64. The quote I have chosen for my sig pretty well gives my position on proprietary binary-only code in the first place, so the availability or lack thereof of 64-bit binary-only codecs and plugins is less of an issue for me than for many others, since I'd prefer not to have binary-only stuff on my computer in the first place. If it's not available in standardized form, playable with an open source product, there are other things I can be doing with my time anyway, and I'll just skip the proprietary stuff. Of course, I recognize that not everybody has the same strong opinions on the subject as I do. For these folks, it's useful to keep in mind that the x86_64 arch, amd64 and the Intel version, is the clear mainline successor to x86. Therefore, 32-bit-only binary-only codecs and plugins will be less and less of a problem, as eventually all popular software products, freedomware or proprietary, will have 64-bit versions as well. Now that 64-bit MSWormOS is out of beta (or soon to be, I no longer track MSWormOS close enough to be sure), 64-bit versions of the various codecs and plugins should be available fairly shortly, I'd guess. Before moving from the subject of 32-bit binary packages, I should also mention that OpenOffice.org has 64-bit issues, or at least the 1.x versions do. 2.x is supposed to work on amd64. However, note that due to its size and complexity, OOo is one of the few apps that even many hard-core Gentoo users prefer to merge the (32-bit) binary package of, rather than compiling their own copy themselves. Thus, as with firefox and mplayer (and their various codecs), the 32-bit OOo can be merged, only it's even MORE widely used and tested than the other bin-pkgs. Of course, you may or may not have reason to merge and use OOo anyway. I've found no need for the various Office suites, here, and if I did, since I use KDE on my desktop anyway, I'd probably try KOffice first. ... There's one other set of issues specific (in one sense, tho the general issue affects others) to /Gentoo/ amd64 (as opposed to Fedora or Mandriva or SuSE or whatever) that needs to be mentioned, the multilib thing, which Gentoo /currently/ treats a bit differently than most of the other distributions. On a dual-32/64-bitness arch, there are often two copies of various libraries needed, the 32-bit version and the 64-bit version. The method for how this is handled has come to be referred to as "multilib". The Linux Standard Base (LSB) / File Hierarchy Standard (FHS) standard solution uses two separate dirs, lib64/ (thus, /lib64/, /usr/lib64/, /usr/local/lib64/, etc) for the 64-bit libraries, reserving the traditional lib/ dirs (thus /lib/, /usr/lib/, etc) for 32-bit shared objects. (Note that shared objects, *.so.*, are the "libraries" of Linux, similar in function to the dynamic link libraries, *.dll, of MSWormOS, but being around Linux for awhile, you already knew that, I'm sure. This is just for others that may be following along. =8^) Gentoo similarly uses two separate dirs, but because Gentoo amd64 implemented them before the FHS standard defined the names for amd64, Gentoo took the opposite approach, reasoning that lib/ should contain the native bitness libraries, in this case the 64-bit libraries, with the 32-bit libraries in lib32/. The FHS version makes more sense for compatibility with existing 32-bit packages, particularly binary-only ones that may simply assume lib/ is 32-bit, while Gentoo's approach makes more sense (in the absolute, but see below) in an almost entirely 64-bit system, and moving forward to a time when 64-bit is mainlined. The problem for Gentoo is that when the LSB/FHS standard was defined, it /did/ become the standard. Packages now come from upstream with that assumption, and it's a lot of work, and becomes ever more work as 64-bit heads toward mainline, to continually patch everything to use the non-standard Gentoo locations. Individually, it's usually not much work at all, just supplying the proper configure option, but the work adds up over thousands of packages, and with the standard defined and amd64/x86_64 clearly going mainline, it's a lot of /unnecessary/ work, moving forward. Therefore, Gentoo amd64 is currently in the middle of a year or more process to safely reverse direction, moving 64-bit libs from lib to lib64 (almost done), and eventually, 32-bit libs from lib32 to lib. Currently, lib is usually a symlink to lib64, so 64-bit packages that haven't been fixed yet still work if they install to lib. (32-bit packages are handled a bit differently, as discussed below.) Another aspect of what amounts to the same issue -- how to treat what could be duplicate packages installed in both 32-bit and 64-bit mode -- is dependency tracking. Imagine what happens if the 32-bit and 64-bit dependency databases aren't kept separate. You go to emerge a 32-bit package, and it sees the 64-bit libs it needs are already merged, so it tries to merge, and fails because it's trying to link against 32-bit libraries that aren't there to link against! Even worse would be the possibility of merging 32-bit libraries when doing an update, then erasing the "old" 64-bit versions of the same libraries as unneeded! Obviously, this will NOT work, so 32-bit and 64-bit package dependency and current installation tracking must be kept separate. Unfortunately, current versions of portage, the Gentoo package management system, cannot directly handle this requirement. Portage-CVS is slated to get this ability (if it hasn't already been added) by the time it is released, but current versions are stuck having to work around the issue. There are a several different ways of managing things, depending on how many 32-bit packages you plan on installing. For certain core packages, currently gcc, glibc, and portage itself, the normal 2005.0 profile (which is multilib, not 64-bit only, tho that's a subprofile option) causes /both/ the 32-bit and 64-bit versions to be installed, so portage can continue to track just the single package. The rest of the 32-bit "system base" libraries are currently normally installed as 32-bit binary-only compatibility packages (emul-linux-x86-*). That's the base 32-bit compatibility installation. If you are only going to be installing binary-only 32-bit software such as games and the various codecs and plugins, this, and bin-packages such as mplayer32 if desired, are all one needs. If, with such an all-binary 32-bit installation you do decide to compile and install 32-bit stuff yourself, it's *HIGHLY* recommended that you do NOT use portage/emerge for doing so. Rather, procure the tarballs directly, and install "manually", resolving any 32-bit dependencies and installing them manually if necessary as well. Obviously, this will become a rather huge hassle rather quickly, however, if you have more than a couple 32-bit packages you want to compile from source. For those who have a large list of 32-bit packages they want to run, there's another option, the 32-bit chroot. The idea is to install a minimal 32-bit Gentoo installation, without system services such as syslog and cron and without a 32-bit kernel of course, but with all the usual libraries and the like, and pointedly, with its own 32-bit portage installation. Because it's in a chroot, this 32-bit portage installation will be entirely separate from the system-wide 64-bit portage, so the dependency tracking systems won't conflict with each other, and any arbitrary package in portage can be merged as 32-bit, without in any way affecting the system-wide 64-bit dependencies. Note that once this is setup, it's possible to add the chroot's library and bin dirs to the system-wide paths, and execute your 32-bit binaries system-wide, not just within the chroot. Obviously, for someone only merging one or two 32-bit packages, the chroot solution is a lot of unnecessary work, but not so much for someone doing many such packages, where the work of manually tracking dependencies would quickly become rather unmanageable. Thus, the different choices for different purposes. There's more documentation on the chroot option in the technotes and other locations, if you decide to go this route. Again, let me stress that this current less-than-ideal situation is temporary, and will be going away, once both the multilib and portage multi-bitness issues are resolved. In terms of timetable, that now looks to be targeted at the 2006.0 release. (It was hoped that it would be done for 2005.1 coming up shortly, but that appears unlikely, now, particularly for the portage multi-bitness dependency tracking stuff, as betas aren't out for the next version yet, meaning it couldn't go stable in time for the next release, 2005.1.) Again, as I said at the top, the reality isn't quite as bad as all the above surely makes it sound. In reality, most things "just work", with the caveat that you understand that 32-bit libraries won't work in 64-bit applications, and the reverse, which you've obviously already figured out from your own research, since you mentioned it. ... Now, some more general Gentoo newbie hints... Before you start your installation, READ THE GENTOO HANDBOOK!! The first section covers installation procedures and most folks read that as they are installing, but it pays to read it thru (for your chosen arch) first, getting an overview of what you will be doing, before you start. As you are doing so, figure out which stage install you plan to use. A stage-3 starts from a mostly bootstrapped system is initially faster to get up and running, but takes longer to get everything fully customized. A stage-1 install is initially slower and more complicated, but you end up knowing far more about how a Linux system works behind the scenes, when you are done. Here, computing is my hobby, not a job, and learning a primary purpose, so there was no question, I did a stage-1. In fact, I went even FURTHER than that, and took apart the bootstrap script and executed it step by step, manually. In doing so, I learned a LOT about the system I was building than I knew about Linux before, but it DID take me quite some time to do it.. For the portage tree and sources, you'll probably want 3G minimum, 5G or more if you use FEATURES=buildpkg (discussed below). As mentioned above, OOo is the largest package in terms of compilation space needed in portage, needing some 5G of scratch space to successfully compile. Again, you'll likely not be compiling it as even x86 folks often use the binary package for it, but that gives you an idea of the sort of scratch space normally required for /var/tmp/. (Here, I've changed both those settings from the default, keeping the portage tree in its own partition mounted in a different location, and telling portage to use /tmp/ for its work, rather than /var/tmp/, so it's possible to change both, but I'm giving you the default locations, above.) Another very useful hint for after the initial install, after you've started customizing your config files (/etc/* and the like). Do *NOT* just tell etc-update to go ahead and auto-merge all the new config files after an update (the negative options), without knowing EXACTLY what you are doing. FAR better to go thru each one individually, and see what it's going to change, then let it make the changes or not as desired, than to find out it killed your customizations on something critical like /etc/fstab! (With /etc/fstab itself, that's no longer a problem, as the package now updates fstab.example instead, but the problem caught MANY an unwary Gentoo newbie before they changed that behavior, and the issue still exists with other files.) Just exercise the usual caution you should exercise anyway when running as root, think about what a command will actually do before hitting that enter key, and you'll be fine. Fail to do so, and your failure will EVENTUALLY bite you! Of course, if you've been running BSDs and Linux for years, this idea won't be at all new to you, only the specifics as applied to etc-update. Before you do the install, however, as well as again afterward when you are actually ready to start working on your new system, I'd suggest reading the REST of the handbook as well. The working with Gentoo and working with Portage sections should be quite interesting to you coming from other distributions, as they are all about what makes Gentoo different from the others. Learning about how Gentoo's boot process and dependency ordering differs from the usual numbered init levels with numbered start and stop symlinks pointing to the appropriate scripts, the system most other distributions use, is both interesting and educational, or I certainly found it so, anyway. (Once you actually get a system up and start investigating, you'll find that in practice, the init levels are still there. Gentoo just lets you deal with them by name instead of number, if desired. However, the way Gentoo's boot scripts resolve boot-time dependencies is VERY fascinating!) Likewise with how portage works and the many ways to customize it. It was fascinating seeing how much more flexible it made things for the typical sysadmin, as compared to the typical rpm or deb package management system, yet how even with all that flexibility, it still managed to keep things simple and decently manageable, without confusion. By reading these things ahead of time, you'll understand far more about what makes Gentoo, Gentoo, and parts of the install that might otherwise seem entirely arbitrary will be instead entirely logical and natural. Reading it again as you actually start working with a running Gentoo, you'll find things just seem to naturally work the way you'd expect them to, where otherwise they'd seem just an arbitrary series of commands that didn't make a lot of sense. Of course, beyond the handbook, Gentoo has lots of additional documentation -- one of its strengths as compared to other distros. How to configure printing, how to configure your sound system, how to manage udev, all this and more the Gentoo documentation covers in Gentoo specific step-by-steps that other distributions lack. One other specific document I should mention: the Gentoo amd64 technotes. These explain most of the differences between x86 and amd64, both in what you can expect from the hardware, and in software. Last I looked, some of the technotes were a bit dated (they still referred to gcc-3.3 in the future, for instance), but it's still a very good overview, covering things like the 32-bit chroot option mentioned earlier, and the thing about OOo, as well as things like common hardware issues and what to do about them. I'll mention one important note specifically. BEFORE YOU INSTALL GENTOO AMD64, UPDATE YOUR BIOS from the manufacturer's web site. Even if the system is new, that doesn't mean it has the latest BIOS, and MANY have found that the troubles they initially had "magically" went away, when they installed the latest BIOS. Likewise, continue checking periodically for additional updates. I had the latest when I installed Gentoo, but additional BIOS updates since then have increased system stability and performance, rather more than I would have expected, in fact. The technotes can be a bit harder to find than the Gentoo Handbook and other documentation, so here's a direct link: (The technotes are also linked from the main project page at, which is easier to remember, and has some other information as well, but the link from there is harder to find, so I suggest bookmarking the direct link.) Another useful hint, about portage, this time. You'll understand the significance of this a bit more after reading the portage features chapter of the working with Gentoo section of the handbook, but setting FEATURES=buildpkg in make.conf causes portage to routinely build binary packages of everything it emerges. This can be very useful for several reasons. First, it's very helpful if you somehow break gcc, preventing emerging gcc again to fix the issue. =8^( If you have the binary package already built, it's a simple matter to remerge the binary package and have a working gcc again! =8^) If it was an upgrade that broke it, simply emerge the previous version's binary package rather than the newest! If portage itself breaks, that means you can't emerge stuff, but since the binary packages are simply tar.bz2 tarballs with a bit of additional metadata tacked onto the end, you can simply extract the portage binpkg tarball directly over your live filesystem, replacing the broken portage files with good versions, and be back in business! =8^) However, rescue functionality isn't the only thing binpkgs are good for. Additionally, it's easy to switch between versions to troubleshoot something or other, if necessary -- FAR easier than having to recompile an old version to see if that fixes whatever the problem is, then recompiling the new one again to get it back. Also, again, the binpkgs are simply tbz2 files with a bit of extra metadata at the end, so it's easy enough to go find a binpkg to see what a particular default config file looks like in it, as compared to your customized installed version, or whether a file that should exist but is missing, existed in the package as installed (and therefore as archived in the binpkg), so it got deleted later, or if it was missing in the installed version as well. Of course, I'm running ~amd64 (the ~ indicating unstable or testing), and in fact sometimes installing packages before they are even marked testing, testing them early, so all this troubleshooting ability is more useful here than it would be to an ordinary stable amd64 user, but it's always useful to have, none-the-less. So... hopefully that's all helpful and not too overwhelming... If you follow this list/group regularly (which I'd recommend, it's not so busy as to prevent it and ypu'll find useful information on what's ahead from time to time, even if the usual discussion isn't of interest to you), you'll find that yes, my replies are /often/ this long and detailed. .

It is rare that Big Raddy struggles to raise enthusiasm for a post but this week has been just so disappointing. Two hard defeats, a dull AGM and another plucky MU victory, all horribly depressing. Apart from our neighbours scraping a draw with a team of chicken farmers and the losses of MC and the Chavs, it has been unremitting pain. BR on Thursday morning Just look at his record. This fool has destroyed club after club, admittedly he doesn’t cause the economic ruin that *Arry does, No, what Hughes does is more insidious. He teaches players to perform as he did, with touches of panache which disguise a petty violence – he is the ankle tapper, the achilles tendon breaker as opposed to the leg breaking of Allardyce. At least Allardyce stands up for his crimes to football, Sparky just blames others. Unfortunately, Rangers have started to improve. The tens of millions spent on new players may not have been wasted as the team starts to gel. I watched their performance last weekend in the draw with Everton and QPR looked good – they could and should have won. Decent ball players, the creativity of Taraabt, some pace and stout defenders…. you know their assets as well as I do. But….. This game will revolve entirely around Arsenal’s performance. My prayer is that we score early and stop the ill-humour which will inevitably grow should the team struggle. Get the fans onboard, start playing the football we know we can and get back to winning ways. The signs are that Wilshere will get some pitch-time which is a huge fillip to the fans. So much expectation is resting upon his very young shoulders, but should he be the player we all think he is, then the future is rosy. My team: Much depends upon who is fit. What is clear is that somehow we have to create chances for the forwards. In the last two game we haven’t had a sniff at goal. We don’t have the type of strikers who can create their own chances, ours are finishers. The Gervinho in the middle ploy worked for a couple of games but (and I hesitate to say this) he is not intelligent enough to play the role being asked of him – he is no Thierry. We have an expensive CF, play him and let him show what he can do, let Giroud play 90 minutes. Podolski has been subbed in almost every game which makes me question his fitness, so why not give him a 2 week rest? As to Santos. I feel he has been vilified in the same way that Ramsey, Song, Eboue etc etc have been. Santos is a good player working his way back into the team after a long lay-off through injury, that said, his lack of match fitness is costing us goals, both Norwich and Schalke’s first were as a direct result of Santos not keeping the defensive line; if Gibbs is fit he must start. Today’s man is just a taster for one of Britain’s great heroes; David Livingstone was an extraordinary man who needs more time than I have today. Instead I will leave you with a picture of his father-in-law, a missionary who established a South African church in 1820. Three points is a must today. Not just to stop the rot but to condemn Mr Hughes to a P45 (if they exist anymore) Written by Big Raddy We must get more attacking impotus from our wide boys today, whoever they may be. The improvement in our defensive stats has inevitably come at a cost to our attacking play with full backs not quite so eager to bomb over half way at every opportunity, and our wingers having to work harder tracking back, which leaves our striker isolated all too often. We have shown against Liverpool that this more defensive approach can work brilliantly on the counter attack, but we seem to be struggling to alter our mind set when having to take the game to lesser teams. It’s time to take the shackles off the wide players and let them do what they do best. If we can’t do that against the bottom of the league then when can we? I agree with BR that an early goal would be the key to a big performance, but if we get 30 minutes in without a goal it could be a very long afternoon. The pre match king well done but i believe Gibbs is still out. Thanks for the preview Big Randy. I felt the same as you did on Thursday morning. Surely we can’t be that dire again 3 games in a row ? You are right, if we don’t get an early goal the mood in the crowd could get quite ugly. Morning all I’m ready, the sun is shining and The Emerates always looks so beautiful in the sunshine. If we play our football and score early that will be good. The team need to get back to enjoying playing together and today is the day ……. fingers crossed Rasp and I will be at The Tavern from 1.30, see all comers there later. Thank you Raddy for the large dose of optimism, very much appreciated these days. I have no views on Hughes, but respect your opinion and shall hate him from this day forward. Santos would not be half as tired if he stayed in his position, instead of charging forward. Please, please, pretty please Dennis, help!!!! MATCH FACTS (source: BBC website) Good post BR But I think you are mistaken when you say that “both Norwich and Schalke’s first were as a direct result of Santos not keeping the defensive line.” The way I remember it the Norwich goal was scored from a long range shot that Mannone spilled and was then tapped in by one Nowich player or another. How is Santos to blame for that? The Schalke goal again came down the middle in which Vermaelen had nodded off, yet again how do you blame Santos for this? I obviously do agree that Santos is working his way back to match fitness after a long lay off. Wow Raddy, that is a forest of facial growth. Even a light trim would have resulted in some serious global warming. Jack was on the bench at Norwich and Chas told me he played a full 90 for someone on monday, so for me he starts. Thank you, and I hope you are having a great time in Paris. Students eh! Good post Big Moody. Depending on Koscielny (see following analysis) Mannone Jenkinson – Mertesacker – Koscielny – Vermaelen Ramsey – Cazorla – Arteta Ox-Chamberlain – Giroud – Gervinho I noticed a comment from KELSEY at the end of yesterday’s excellent post, re Koscielny’s fitness… I had mentioned it also, earlier in the post. I personally think he wasn’t fully fit and would have been used only in an emergency (injury to Mertesacker or Vermaelen). If that’s still the case today, and if Santos is dropped, then maybe the back-four could include (surprisingly) Djourou. Jenkinson – Mertesacker – Djourou – Vermaelen. (with Koscielny again on the bench IF he’s not FULLY fit). @ Ritchie – great stories about Avanull Road and Gran etc, yesterday. Evonne, I love your thinking. Something along the lines of: “I know nothing about so and so, but if Raddy says bad things about him, then from this moment forwards, I shall detest every fibre in his spineless body” Have fun all that are going, and remember to drop a drink and some scratchings over the road to Chary. If Walcott is fit, I reckon he is nailed on to start. Just noticed Big Moody’s last comment under the pic of that ZZ Top bloke. “to condemn Mr Hughes to a P45″ Which reminds me that I wanted to ask you all (some time ago) for your thoughts as regards the first Premiership managerial casualty, should there be one this season. This seems a reasonable time seeing as Hughes is possibly in the running… Sorry to go off-topic (to a degree), and if this has been discussed on a previous post, then apologies, but my computer had to go into hospital for quite some time recently, and I may have missed it (?). I can’t get over the idea that Weedonald lives 2700 miles away, I still don’t know exactly where, this came to mind after looking out he window and thinking hmmm it’s a bit windy today the journey may take me 25 instead of 20 minutes to get to the ground. Hopefully Hughes and Rodgers won’t last the season at lLverpool, Big Al. Thanks Raddy, once again you’ve summed up my mood for today’s game Victory is vital … end of. On another note I must compliment everyone on a great day’s blogging yesterday. richie and GoonerB have certainly added something to our content. Which brings me to richie’s comment @12:30 on yesterdays post. We are blessed with so many friends who have unbelievable provenance in terms of The Arsenal. GunnerN5 and Brigam and several others basically grew up outside Highbury and have fantastic tales to tell … but richie may have eclipsed you I met a really nice guy at the AGM who also grew up in the area and his whole family are Arsenal supporters. Sadly his father actually died on the terraces at Highbury. Being the pushy sod I am, I asked him if he would like to write his story for the site. He said yes, but was probably just being polite Any way ***, if you’re reading, we’ll be at The Tavern at about 1:30 today if you fancy a beer before the game. Morning LB, looks like we’re both Theo fans now I have been sitting on a post about Theo for about a week now but haven’t had the opportunity to publish. ‘Lex Luther to Arsene’s Superman’ Love the rant, Raddy, and thanks for a fine pre-match. You have lifted our spirits. Rasp, I had already complimented people on the quality of blogging. Always know that while you sleep, the site is in safe hands Have a great day, and I wish I was there with you. Off out now, back to join Cinders and Chums for the game from the sofas. Since we have acquired so many bloggers who grew up within the sound of the refs whistle at Highbury (as opposed to Bow Bells) we really should have a collective name for them don’t you think? …. HighGunners? Thanks Micky, I’m sorry I often don’t get the chance to catch up on comments. The early morning club of which you and chas are founder members is always a joy to read back over and as a result I start my day with a smile even if I can’t join in Micky, sorry you won’t be joining us in the biting wind today – when am I next likely to enjoy your company (and some tasty Turkish cuisine) at a game? How about Goonbury’s! Hi all I’d love to know who would like to write the match report before I go to the game ……… any offers? Goonbury’s – love it, do I count even though I left the area when I was 6 We know it will be a 4-3-3 system but I like your line up BR. You know I feel that Giroud often doesn’t get the players in close enough to him to support at times, and he ends up looking isolated. As the game becomes fluid I would love to see us at times getting Theo or the ox in tighter to Giroud for support with the midfield 3 moving one place to the right so that Le Coq becomes almost a right winger, and Gervinho coming more to the left flank. It turns it more to a 4-4-2 and I am not suggesting we should stay rigid to that formation throughout the game, but adopt it at times during the game to give Giroud more of a strike partner if you like. Anyway just leaving work so must dash to get the train I want. Hi GoonerB, you leave me standing in terms of your tactical and positional knowledge. I certainly want to see Coquelin on the pitch today, even if it is at the expense of Ramsey. Some of his tackling was fantastic on Wednesday and he has greater skills/tricks than Theo. I can see Coquelin being a top player in the future. My line-up would be: GK: Mannone, CBs: Koscielny/Djourou & Vermaelen, CB(Sweeper): Mertesacker RWB/RM: Jenkinson, LWB/LM: Santos, CM(Holding): Coquelin, CM(Box-to-Box):Arteta, CM(Advanced): Ramsey, CF(Main): Giroud, SF(Side-forward): Cazorla Subs: Martinez, Djourou/Koscielny, Gervinho, Podolski(rested), Walcott/Arshavin, Sagna, Wilshere/Gnabry. Tactic: Attack from Right flank, Containment in the middle, Decoy along Left flank. Arsene’s line-up should be 4-3-3(Defensive) of course. Morning all, hope you’re all in good shape! Have been reading what’s been an excellent week in terms of quality of this blog and mourning what has been a woeful week in terms of quality of performance on the park…completely unable to be rational when I’ve tried to post so have avoided it! But let’s not dwell on that… Raddy – great to call out Hughes on what he is…a neanderthal who hides his vile ways under a veneer of civility…he’s a cretin and always has been… Today’s another day, folks – a good win today could set us up for (shock horror!) a good November. Wrap up warm ‘cos in spite of the sun it’s BITTER cold out there and bring your singing voices! Thanks Rhyle and JM, I have been toying with the idea of having a sort of league table of team selection predictions. Poor Raddy always has to put his head on the line in his PM …. the only trouble with the idea is it will involve me in more ‘behind the scenes time’ so I’ll only instigate it if there is enough support for the idea. Right off to the game … catchup later …… and happy I hope …….. I’m still holding out hope that Wengers words at the end of the last TW will ring true in January. I still don’t think he has finished moulding this new squad and we may see a few outs in January and hopefully 1 or 2 ins if he can find the right players. Fab match preview as always BR i’m looking forward already to your Livingstone tribute! Rasp, the line up prediction is a great idea. The fantasy league is interesting enough, maybe we could have a score prediction league too, soon you’ll be running out of space for the widgets. Anyway i am hoping Santos doesn’t get a game as QPR will target for sure when its bus comes out from parking. My team Vito, Jenks, BFG, TV, Bac, Mikel, Coq, Caz, Gerv, Giroud, Ox/Theo Shoot on sight please. TV & Santos probably – stay in defense please. Gerv/Ox/Theo get in the box with Giroud when the ball is on your opposite flank please. Arsenal win please. 4.1 @GIE from last post. They were such different times Charlie George was a local lad who played football in Highbury Fields with my uncle, Johnny Radford lodged with my gran Pat Rice’s brother was the barber and the team often trained in Clissold Park. They drove Ford angla’s I remember it was such a big thing when Sammy Nelson bought an Alfa Romeo. It was like how did he manage to save up for that? Who’s he think he is anyway with a bloody Alfa? Now the average players drive a car worth a house. Final plea for a match report before I leave ………. anyone? Micky – don’t know if you are just taking the piss, which I presume you are, but to be honest with you I didn’t hate Tony Pullis or Cambridgeshire referee Darren Deadman until I met GiE, or Martin O’Neill, or Orcs until you lot poisoned my little mind I was on a tube half hour ago, lots of fans getting off at Finsubury Park, all very somber faced I think we are bracing ourselves for the unspeakable No Evonne, not taking the piss at all. Au contraire, I like the cut of your jib Well, I have not heard a good reason why Jack cannot start. So Jack starts for me. There will be a bus in town, so a cute passer will be handy. His presense will also lift spirits on and off the pitch. I assume they’ve got two big oiks at the back, so I’d attempt to play along the ground and through and past the bloody apes. Therefore its: …………Vito Jenk Mert Verm Miqu …..Santi Art Jack Theo Pod Gerv Off again until KO @ LB10:26 I hate to have to remember this coz I’m trying to forget but Santos played Holt onside otherwise he would’ve been off-side for his tap in that Mannone spilled. Thats whats meant by him not keeping the defensive line. Big thumbs up on the match report B Raddy, always a delight.. An early goal would be just the tonic me thinks, and i would gladly sacrifice the sexy football for a guaranteed 3 points..Its backs to the walls time and we must stand up and fight, show those loftus fools whos house they are in and get our respect back even if its ugly on the eye.. No Retreat, No Surrender! Up the Arse Just for you Micky, jack starts. All you Gooners out there, where ever you may be, Enjoy the game, block out all the negatives and keep the faith !! Remember even ‘titi’ was a flop in his first 8 weeks….. Miracles do happen and the stars shall align again…MAGIC-its the Arsenal way Mannone, Sagna, Mertesacker, Vermaelen, Santos, Arteta, Wilshere, Ramsey, Cazorla, Podolski, Giroud. subs: Martinez, Koscielny, Jenkinson, Coquelin, Walcott, Arshavin, Gervinho Hi Jack, Hows your back? Havnt seen you for ears and ears but i still knows your cheeky Ive got my coat….. Thanks Kelsey well lets hope santos is going to get some help from TV & midfield Has anybody got the stats:- games we have won this season with Ramsey and games we have won without Ramsey? @LB further to the previous point if you wanna confirm how Santos didn’t keep the defensive line check out Off now KO close. I thought Santos was chosen to play on the left flank Didn’t expect Sagna or Wilshere to start.These are risks which i hope comes off. No real pace on the flanks but let’s hope we stuff toillett and co down the toilet. That’s good Kelsey. Theo on the bench (so fit) mmmm Oh well, show us what you do best Arsenal. Come on you Gunnnnnners Damned if you do, damned if you dont..Sometimes i dont envy Arsenes job.. COYRRG!! Reddawn you don’t really want to know, just enjoy the game If we keep Granero quiet we kill the supply to Hoilett..its elementary my dear Crakcing pre match and fantastic picture What do we do best,Micky Aren’t you there sharkey ? He’s back! He’s back! Jack is back!!!!!!!! mouth watering and ox on bench…unbelievabubble how are you Oz? Love the gravatar btw, smells like teen spirit= youth naivity? Oh yeah PPP everything is right in the world again. Jacks my favourite gunner, pod was my favourite none gunner but now plays for us. All thats missing is the trophies (not long of a wait though. Yourself? Raddy was right, they are already kicking Sagna. Gosh I hate Mark Hughes hi oz and ppp haha cheers, just showing everyone what BSR really thought of as a young boy oh no Oz, I just enlarged your gravator, yuk great…it’s Evonne, lets go PPP. haha hi, hope all is well Evonne! Confident on that front as well! Other than that heaps busy with work and holidays round the corner, although evryhings fine when your still breathing in the morning and our Gunners are on track. Im easily pleased Come on boys, stand up and be counted!! Hi Evonne, hows the sofa? hey that CD has sold millions. get your mind outa the gutter! agreed PPP, that’s all that matters Jack is the secret herbs and spices sofa safely away from the wall with ample space to hide it’s freezing cold in London, but the atmosphere seems hot hot hot Jack!! We lose an attacker as Podolski has to track back and cover Santos, therefore he won’t last 90 minutes. Evonne during the game: very good point kelsey,it’s very frustrating. Santos looks like he has no confidence at all! Oz tough times call for tough meassures 3 times their keeper has already spilled the ball and each time only one forward in the box to take advantage to no avail. foul??? what! jacks shot had santi and giroud both running in C’mon Arsenal.. lets sheke off this pre-season mode You don’t need to be a genius to figure out that Ramsey on the right DOES NOT work. sheke *shake tomAto tomato ppp = dumbass what the hell! this umpiring is an f’n joke. nelson gets one,ramsey gives one for touching a bloke then nothing for getting flattened!!! Bit worrying that we look more nervous than the bottom team. This is a bit disjointed but already better than Naaarch and Schaaaalke. We know our weak link, QPR have the same weakness in traore so take ramsey off (not needed ) and put on walcott Not a bad call Kelsey, but Ramsey is doing a lot to keep Taraabt quiet. you can hear a pin drop in the emirates …. not right agreed rocky, more attacking intent but still not the same Arsenal. Jack is a star though. I forgot just how good his close control was Bolleaux! Why couldn’t the keeper spill it that time, with OG a yard away! PPP Crowd are as nervous as the team, hence the atmosphere. I know Rocky, i understand but you know its not right.. We are at home and it seems as though our opponents no longer fear us.. Your right, we look disjointed but i believe we will wrap this one up, but alot needs to be done on the training track.. Put into perspective we have now played what where the bottom two teams consecutively and it ain’t great.. First half performance started brightly and then slowly lost our urgency.giroud may well turn out to be a goal scorer for us,but for the moment we are screaming for a striker. Sagna and wilshere both look fully composed and that’s a big plus. Kelsey 2.59…no I;m 95% armchair these days. 3 games a season is about my limit in recent years. The more children I have the less I go. Shame really cos theres a new train line from me in Sth London straight thru to H&I. It used to be real trek* to get there with buses tubes and trains * Said with apologies to those coming from Notts, Cornwall and Norfolk Oh and Kelsey… if I look at Bob Moffats pic upside down it really could be you !! Oh yeah the game…. Decent game, but we need to maintain the higher tempo for longer periods..not just short bursts. Don;t even wanna think about how flat we might have been without Lil Jack I sense tension? And me not watching the first half has not led to a change of fortunes, although we haven’t conceded so that’s a good thing right? Cracking prematch as ever Raddy, I despise Hughes, but not as much as Pulis. Hughes used to annoy me when he was City manager the way he peacocked around the touch line as of he was a mercurial managerial talent, rather than what he was a lowly track suit manager who had lucked out into a club that got bought by the worlds richest family. Sharkespeare I have it on good authority that this was Kelsey in his hey day! tension GiE? hmm, its simmering at the moment, along way to go to get to the boil. We are missing the spark plugs, and safe is not our style…it works against us.. all text book for now great pre-match big daddy. you never let us down they are targeting Wilshere OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOO JACK…doesnt look good, hope its just a knock Flash backs of swansea last season away.. Cmon Kick start my Heart Hurry up with the subs, please There are hints that Wilshere-Santos could turn into something really special. come on pod! you’ve got this Poldi territory top right pleeeeease! is it just me or did those youtube vids of santi scoring free kicks leave you thinking he will score everyone? I feel so let down when he misses! Granero should be off Traore you bloody rabbit stop jumping around like a twit! Now you get punished for a perfect tackle..Refs a bimbo Bring on Ox for Rambo and spread em, making space for Giroo Ref’s rubbish. that sounded awful PPP haha Sagna is class Jack off. Theo on. Ramsey into the middle, presumably. GLiC would be proud Jack off? Me no like Need to grind out a win here, one way or another. QPR have a lot of players with stupid hair. 16 min to go, at home against another bottom of table team.. i should not be worrying like this..cmon boys DIG DEEP Gobsmacked Oh Santi Should have at least been on target. OK – they’re down to 10 men, which the headline writers will enjoy if we fail to win. Gerv off on a stretcher. Oh dear. AT LAST!!!!!!!!!!!! ARTETA!!!!!!!!! pinball purrfect! actually Thank God…my palms are sweaty Well done Arsh. Bloody ell that was like pinball, quality cross by Arshavin, think Arteta was offside at some point though, but not on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th phase of play Think you’re right about the offside GiE – but no mention from the commentators. good boy Rambo We’ve ramped it up well these last 15 mins or so. Its opened up heaps Rocky since the sending off Wow, that was a lucky let-off. We need to focus and see this out Just for once do you think we could stick it in the corner flag and hold it? Great stop Mannone Rocky can’t understand my commentators Mannone just saved our bacons. Ref is very very poor. Phew… Thank Dennis for that. The result was all important today. 3pts ! what a relief….pheeeeew phew….. Not an overly convincing performance, but it would have looked a lot different if we had been coming off the back of two wins instead of two defeats. There’s lots to work on, but it was an improvement on Norwich and Schalke. lol its a hatrick of phews Haha evonne and GiE… a lot of “phewing” going on. The best thing the ref did this evening was ‘blow the full time whistle’ it was at times ugly, but im a happy chap.. Told you it was similar to Swansea last season when our challenge kicked off and snowballed to Christmas.. This is the same… And we will beat the Manure scum on their own cow paddock! Happy days again An offside goal is exactly what’s needed when things aren’t going too well! A ragged performance with Jack the massive highlight. Great to see him and Sagna back, and it wouldn’t be players returning without another injury to put us back to swuare one! Hope it’s just a knock for Gerv. Great result, very average performance, and a game that will only be remembered for Jacks return. My weekend will better than last week! Up to 4th Man of the match…I suppose their keeper Winning ugly is an understatement. very grateful for the three points but on the whole a very disjointed performance. A lot of improvement needed and not sure if this win will boost confidence. Not a match i would be eager to watch again. I said earlier they were bruisers and at what cost.we will find out later. Jack looked class in his first full game, it’s the striking department that worries me. Ha Ha, just said “I wonder if someone has posted a Phew” Can’t stay and chat as there are extra DidIt’s in the house. Absolutely essential three points. Phew ROLF Nite or bye all. Any win will bring confidence. Thought Giroud was unlucky with that towering header before Arteta got it in, good to see bodies in and around the box. Thought Rambo looked good from what i saw of him last 40 minutes. Does a lot of unnoticed and unrewarding work. Arshavin has that touch of class and nous which is worth having on the bench, and maybe if we find the right system even a starting place. If we assume it is best to have our best players on the pitch, could we somehow re shape our 4-3-3 to include the likes of Arsh who sit on the bench. I rather like the idea of 4-2-3-1, but i’m not sure the boss will. Just to illustrate: ………..Arteta…………Jack…………….. …..Podolsi….Cazorla…..Arshavin….. ……………….Giroud…………………… Or maybe with Pod up top, Jack in the three and Ramsey sitting next to Mikel? Obviously Diaby would be preferable when fit. Feel sorry for Jenks today, didn’t think he deserved to be dropped so quickly, but a bit of experience on the pitch was probably essential today. GiE Jenks didn’t deserve to be dropped, but Bac was outstanding. Put in some great crosses and defensively rock solid. OG had a really, really good game up front, holding the ball up against a very big, physical team. Santi and Arteta also very good. Their ‘keeper played well – we could have had three or four. Bit worrying that we gave them two very good chances after going one up. BR Belatedly – thanks for another superb prematch and another top beardsman. I love when we get our game out of the way early, and bag the 3 points.. Now we can sit back and watch the others drop points, well some of the contenders..Today is esentially a 6 pointer mad celebrations behind my sofa followed Arteta’s goal I was reminded that it was only QPR we were playing. But frankly, a bus is a bus regardless if it is from Sutherland, Norwich or south of the river I agree about Arsh, GIE but we don’t seem to have enough forwards to score, who can last 90 minutes. One of our previous strengths two seasons back was that we would really press with the attackers until the final whistle . 10 men or not, they looked more dangerous after we scoredwith 6 minutes + left. surely lessons can be learned from that.. Hopefully Kelsey hopefully they will take my instruction at 4:48 (ie stick it in the corner and hold it). Remember a few seasons back when we didn’t see a game out in that way and Wenger said he couldn’t stop the team trying to play football (almost put it down to the impetuousness of youth), today we had enough experienced heads who could go and keep it in the corner. Wow, this site is a breath of fresh air Good to see our team getting their belief in their abilities back, with a grinding 1-0 London derby win. Regarding Arsene’s 4-3-3 system, we are in the same company as Barcelona, Juventus, Lazio, PSG & Ajax. Next match, Reading (to build momentum) and then onwards to Man Utd. Have we got the players to make it work JM? Wenger: “Wilshere, overall was quite positive, still lacks rhythm but he’ll get that. Gervinho, ankle problem – doesn’t look good” “It was amazing to be back – words cannot describe it. I was just running around smiling. It’s great to be back. “Last time I played it was with Fabregas and Nasri – now it’s with Artata and Cazorla who are great players too. It’s like a new team and I’m like a new player.” Garth Crooks….talks a load of shite: “Any manager other than Arsene Wenger at Arsenal would have got the sack. He is rebuilding but the rebuild for me is too slow. But in Arsenal’s credit today they worked their way back into the game and got the points that, really, I’m not sure they deserved.” Right i’m offski for a Curry. See you all later. Ramsey for me just doesn’t work in that right wing position, he’s too slow with the ball and getting past players/crossing isn’t his strong point too. Walcott did a much better job in that position the minute he came on. He upped the tempo just that little bit too, honestly hope he will sign a new contract ASAP along with Sagna who had a really good game. Wilshere was class too considering that this was his first league game in 17 months. It is clear that we still need an out and finisher and this should be Wenger’s #1 priority in the upcoming transfer window. Nevertheless, a very scrappy win and honestly Wenger needs to work his magic and get this team to start clicking together again before that match at OT next weekend. Wouldn’t want Van persie rubbing it in our face would we? In fact, Wenger might even want to give the first team another go against Reading just to improve the cohesion factor and to get this team clicking again. By the way, Julio Cesar just showed us what a really good keeper could contribute to a team. Wenger might want to take a hint and start sniffing around for DECENT GKs either to back Sczesny up while hes out or act as a deputy as I feel that its a matter of time before Fabianski and Mannone leave. Adrian On the goalkeeping side, to be fair to Man One, he saved us at the end. It wasn’t a spectacular save but it was all about positioning and staying “big”, which he did very well. And a lot of the reports are a bit schizophrenic: apparently we were pants, but QPR’s ‘keeper had a great game. Bit of a contradiction there, surely? We were far from fluent, but a 3-0 win would not have been unjustified based on chances. As I said earlier, if this performance had come after a couple of wins in previous games, we would be talking about it as a professional job, grinding out a good result without being at our best and so on. Obviously the context of two p*ss-poor performances colours how many people view today’s outing. Adrian is a really good keeper one that makes good saves? Mannone’s one on ones saved the three points Sorry that should have been multiple choice: Is a really good keeper: A) one that makes a lot of saves B) one that makes great saves C) one that doesn’t have to make saves cause he deals with the cross For me it’s B and C. I think a really good/great keeper is like Schmeichel, Seaman, Kahn, or Southall. Maybe Buffon in the modern game is in that league. Well said Rocky, and on that thought i would like to rest my head and say goodnight.. About 2hrs ago i asked Dennis for a win/3 points.. i did not care how i got them, i just wanted a building block and we got it, every Gooner on this planet would have taken a 1-0 to the Arsenal pre match.. Smiling today, and RoLFing 2moro when the spudz produce a knee-jerk loss I might have phrased that wrongly, Julio Cesar not only made quite a few saves but made a couple of great saves as well, the most notable one being that rebound shot from just a yard out. Mannone’s performance today was decent as he didn’t have much to do, but he isn’t fully convincing yet as shown in his previous games. Night P Julio Cesar said after the game “QPR was not built in a day” Kelsey Have you come to bury him, or praise him? Very good Kelsey. I’m just home ………… anyone offered a match report???? I havent thought about it yet, but who do we want to win tomorrow, chelsea or united? I guess united? jnyc I guess a draw or (chokes on words) a ManUre win. i think you will do a very good job at a report peaches, you were there .I am 1761 kilometres away as weedonald would say. There is still a lot of negativity about today’s performance (not here, thankfully) so, for some context: Match Stats (Arsenal first) Possession: 70% – 30% Shots: 21 – 4 On Target: 11 – 3 Corners: 5 – 2 Yet Mark Hughes says QPR were in complete control and ‘the least they deserved’ was a draw. How much did QPR pay for Cesar.? I thought it was minimal or even free, but i maybe wrong RL, another 5 minutes and they might have got a draw Haha – true Kelsey But it might also have been 2-0 to us with an extra 5 mins as they were wide open. We’re second on MOTD kelsey – have you follwed me, I followed you Not a performance to boost the teams confidence. Against eleven it looked as if one point was the best we could hope for. In fact against ten, we conceded two great late chances to QPR, both through shocking defending. Evening all, A well earned victory. We started without wingers and lacked pace up front. Ramsey put in a very good shift but he’s not quick enough for a winger – but not his fault he was played out of position. On the other side the Pod was not happy with Santos and barked at him quite a lot. I’d imagine that was because he couldn’t go forward when he was constantly called upon to defend. We looked so much better with Gerv on the left, Theo on the right and Ramsey in the middle. Jack played really well and looked our most attack minded midfielder. Hope Gerv’s ankle injury is not too serious, but fantastic to have Sagna back (he was very good). Either Cazorla is still a bit off his game or perhaps opposition managers now set their stall up to stop him conducting our play. Arteta was imense throughout and is my MotM Great to see TMHT, GliC, VCC, chas and GoonerB at the rub-a-dub yes i have, peaches I see you changed a word rasp This is what i was debating with richie yesterday about playing players out of position (when you mentioned ramsey) Evening all, hope all our well? At least 3 got three points today and that was all that mattered today…… Equally pleasing today was getting a lovely text from Peaches, miss you all at the matches, hoping that I will be able to get myself to one very soon, so missing it, even if the football has been a tad awful at times……. One interesting side note today, there was 3 champions league winners out there today, none on our side….. And Jack is back… Hi Harry, great to hear from you. Hopefully we can hook up at a game real soon. I think Mannone should be heaped with praise, he made several important saves and generally dealt with crosses well. Come on …… someone must want to write about our first victory for three weeks ………… Yes that would be good rasp, it so hard at the moment, these are the first CL matches I have missed at home for about 6 or 7 seasons, i think……so miss it………. What was the atmosphere like today? martin wen you gonna grow some balls? I can see what Rocky means about split opinions on the game, I only watched the second half of the second half. What I saw looked ok going forward against a typically belligerent away defence at the Ems, we were a tad wasteful in fronts of goal, even when they had 11 men. We had 14 shots before the red card (5 on target), and according to 442 stats app another 8 after that (4 on target). Kelsey has already volunteered Peaches read 7.51. I look forward to reading it. A common gripe has been our inability to grind out results when playing below our best. Today we managed that and now people will comment that we didn’t win in style! Then when we win in style, people will moan that it style doesn’t win trophies! It’s a funny old game…! I’m going to enjoy these 3 points just as much as any. Have a great weekend Gooners. Oooooo, a kelsey match report, how exciting! An interesting game I thought, but how fickle are the footballing gods when they apportion there quotients of luck. Last week Mannone pushed one out and it went straight to an opposition player and cost us three points, this week Cesar pushes three out, not one goes to a red shirt and the ball is scrambled away. Fortunately a blatant offside is missed by the Ref who allows the goal and we still collect three points. Sparky is his normal charming self and accepts our good fortune with equanimity and grace as per the Sir Red nose school of footballing etiquette. Early days yet but a confused league this season seems certain to cause much anxiety and uncertainty among football fans across the country. But us top four? Well the boss man says so and he has been right a few times on the bounce now, has he not? Guess that will do for me. By the way enjoyed your rant yesterday Kelsey and BR’s usual pre match quality today. Thanks guys. Kelsey didn’t offer to write the match report, he was responding tom a question peaches asked him, we still need a volunteer Thanks Rasp, you’re right, kelsey was responding to my question about following me on twitter……………. ……..so a volunteer is still needed to write a match report please. I’ll put a match report in drafts Peaches. Wow that deadened the site a bit peaches. 4 hours without a comment haha. A lot of great comments made tonight. Particularly liked GiE’s formation. I’d definitely like to see a lot more of Arshavin. Hopefully gerv is okay, otherwise we will have no choice but too. Are our subs warming up enough/properly before entering the game because first Ox, and now Gerv. Or just coincidence? Oz Ox’s injury was nothing to do with warming up – he got twatted in the hip by some big Norwich lump. And Gerv got a kick on the ankle. And by the way Oz, I notice that you laid low until I volunteered to do the report I don’t want to cast a shadow over Rocky’s efforts as the poor chap is probably huddled around his paraffin lamp, nib in hand, as we speak, but…. Do we always have to have a match report. It causes Peaches match day worry, kills the site, and yet this is meant to be fun. Everyone saw the game afterall. If someone wants to, then brilliant, but feeling guilt is bad. What terrifies me the most is pissing off the sites’ most prolific and accomplished author (Rocky) and effectively relying on his good nature. Oh bugger, the clocks have changed haven’t they! Forwards or backwards? I’m confused, although I think I’m stuck on Islamabad time. i kind of agree with that micky and everyone will either have seen the game live or on TV or at least highlights and all we need if peaches and rasp want a new post every day is just a few thoughts about the game as invariably as the day goes on we drift into different aspects of the game or individuals. i have sent in two posts this week which for me is a lot and if I was doing a match report today it would have been quite blunt. In a sentence: we got 3 points,Wilshere and Sagna were a pleasing sight to see return but otherwise not a game that will stick in the memory. I have my own thoughts about the squad and it appears especially when looking for a result we have more cameo players than regular 90 minute players .The debate is, is that rotation or aren’t some players fit or good enough for a whole game , or otherwise is squad depth just not a standard of a club looking for trophies or at the least a top four position, even allowing for injuries. Haven’t seen the game yet so cannot comment but delighted we won. Bloody freezing in Gay Paris and Spring forward, Fall back Kelsey. It is too early to be so cheerful Morning Kelsey and Raddy. Interesting point about cameo players, Kelsey. Thing is, we are where we are, and right now this is our squad, so how to get the most out of it. Next up Reading then Utd. I’m always of the view that the League Cup should be for come-back players and fringe players, but this time I’d send out the first team for 45 mins only. We need more playing time, particularly for the attacking side of our game to try and find some rhythm and understanding ahead of Utd. Raddy, Which Arrondissement are you staying in? By the way Kelsey, you asked what I meant by The Arsenal “doing what they do best”…I can now answer that: 1-0 To The Arsenal Kelsey, I do think a posible answer to one small part of your multi-layered thinking lies in the contracts of certain players and how this cocks up possible transfer movements. Of course I’m thinking of Bendy, Chamakh, Theo and even Arshavin. Exactly Micky, so does that mean Wenger is being stubborn and some of those players aren’t being selected even though they could add strength to any given game. Can we afford those luxuries ? Multi layered thinking Look you know how I feel. I don’t think we will make top 4 this season for a multitude of reasons, but I may not enjoy many games at the moment but you know I support the club and as GLIC said maybe I am frustrated ,and personal issues are clouding my judgement. You have to be gentle with me, I am aging Didn’t see the whole match, watched the highlights last night and they picked out Jacks return for special coverage, he looked every bit as good as i remember. Some people will argue that we shouldn’t rely on a 21 year old, but for me of you have the best young player in the country theres no shame in relying on him. Just watching highlights of City v Swansea…..a lot of empty blue seats I did nothing of the sort Rocky! I’ll have you know I was about to offer then I saw your comment so I gracefully withdrew my proposal haha Micky due to the injury risks I’d be sticking out reserves in the League Cup. Still be reasonably good squad. Twitter rumour mill suggests Szczesny avail for United not Gibbs. Lots of talk of Verm going to left back. Think I’d probably stick with Santos. My hopes for today’s result: Chelsea – Utd DRAW (plus twenty man brawl) Saints – Spuds HOME WIN Toon – West Brom HOME WIN/DRAW Toffees – Dippers DRAW/AWAY WIN Then we will be 4th and I’ll wonder what all the fuss has been about Berbatov was immense for Fulham yesterday, how interesting. Schwarzer was shit. Slim – spot on. We have critisized ourselves for not being able to do a Manyoo and win while playing rubbish. Yesterday we proved that we can grind results. A win is a win is 3 points, end of. GiE – you are such a sweetie May I add a couple of broken legs for the Chelsea fixture? One on each side will do me yes, Sagna and Jack were great. The filthy bastards targeted Jack in the first half, but a yellow card stopped them from injuring him. I’d be interested to see what everyone’s strongest XI would be. I think there would be a fair amount of agreement over the back five and the middle three, but the front three….I don’t thinkArsene even knows the answer to that one. Theo right? I don’t think Theo thinks Theo is right sided player, and anyway, is Arsene freezing him out ahead of january? Ramsey? Not for me. Ox…mmm, maybe. What about the left? Pod or Gerv? I think we will need to be at our best next weekend (although we do up our performances against the Big Boys anyway), but the attack needs surgery. Micky – for Wednesday? I don’t care if we play 3rd team and lose. One competition less to worry about Micky I think we need a small change in formation of midfield and attack to get the best from our new players. I also think that we don’t need to name our best 11 in a 4-3-3 but actually our best 11 players and find a formation that gets them all on the pitch. So for me 3-4-3 probably does it. GIE, Although I agree about your thinking and the three at the back, I cannot see AW adopting it. For me, the left side only works with Gibbs as he enables either Pod or Gerv to get on with their jobs. The right side is a real problem, as I believe there is a major issue with Theo, both in terms of his contract, as well as where he/AW sees his ideal position, and I don’t see a potent alternative. Evonne, I do agree with you over wenesday, its just that I’m worried about going to The Toilet next weekend with so little cohesion and understanding amongst our attack. But Micky the brilliance of 3-4-3 is it allows Gibbs to stay on the pitch (and means that Santos isn’t such a liability of required to play ) ……………….Szczesny……………. …………………BFG………………… ……..Kozzer…………Vermy……. Sagna………Arteta………..Gibbs ………………..Jack………………… ……..Cazorla……….Podolski…. ……………….Theo………………… Damn GIE, I’ve just completed your homework ie name “best 11 players and find a formation that gets them all on the pitch”, and I have: No goalkeeper and No attack! Does my startling conclusion finally put to bed the Total Football idiotic theory? Bloody hell GiE…I DO like that You should Patent that. 1-2-3-1-2-1 Even that bright spark Herbert Chapman never thought of it Morning session closed I think. Have a god day all. Day of the Lord it may be for some, but I did mean have a GOOD day all Heard a great quote the other day that might be a good title for today’s match report. Went something like: ‘Turn a step back into a comeback’ Think that’s exactly what we did last season and hopefully we can do the same again. Turn a set-back into a comeback. That sounds more like it! Morning all We have a New Post………… and at the right time too

Abstract Introduction Chemokine receptors play an important role in mediating the recruitment of T cells to inflammatory sites. Previously, small proportions of circulating Th1-type CCR5+ and Th2-type CCR3+ cells have been shown in granulomatosis with polyangiitis (GPA). Wondering to what extent CCR4 and CCR6 expression could also be implicated in T cell recruitment. Introduction T cells display considerable heterogeneity in terms of phenotype, function, and anatomical distribution. Whereas naïve T cells represent a relatively homogenous population, primed T cells acquire effector functions and differentiate into distinct effector and memory subsets. Whereas naïve and central memory T cells home to secondary lymphoid organs to mount antigen-driven proliferative responses, effector memory T cells migrate into peripheral tissues to display immediate effector functions such as cytokine production or cytotoxicity or both [1,2]. The process of T cell recruitment from blood into tissue is controlled by adhesion molecules, in which chemokine receptors have an important role [2]. Previously, we showed that a small proportion of circulating memory T cells displays T-helper cell 1 (Th1)-type CC chemokine receptor (CCR) 5 and Th2-type CCR3 expression in granulomatosis with polyangiitis (GPA) [3]. GPA is a rare chronic inflammatory disorder of unknown etiology and is characterized by necrotizing granulomatosis of the upper or lower respiratory tract or both and a systemic autoimmune vasculitis preferentially affecting pulmonary and renal small vessels. The vasculitis is associated with highly specific anti-neutrophil cytoplasmic autoantibodies to proteinase 3 (PR3-ANCA) [4]. T cells are abundant in inflammatory lesions in GPA. CCR5, CCR3, and their chemokine ligand CCL5 (regulated upon activation in normal T cells, expressed and secreted, or RANTES) are expressed in granulomatous lesions of the respiratory tract. These studies suggested that CCR5 and CCR3 could be involved in the recruitment of interferon-gamma (IFNγ)-producing and tumor necrosis factor-alpha-producing Th1- and interleukin (IL)-4-producing Th2-type cells to inflammatory sites in GPA [5-7]. More recently, IL-17-producing PR3-specific Th17 cells have been implicated in the maintenance of chronic inflammation and autoimmunity in GPA [8-10]. CCR4+ T cells have been reported to secrete IL-4, whereas CCR6+ cells produce IL-17 [11,12]. To investigate the extent to which the chemokine receptors CCR4 and CCR6 could be implicated in T-cell recruitment in GPA, we analyzed CCR4 and CCR6 expression on circulating T cells, assigned CCR4- and CCR6-expressing cells to the respective memory cell subsets, and determined the cytokine production of CCR4+ and CCR6+ T cells. Materials and methods Study population Patients fulfilled the American College of Rheumatology criteria and the Chapel Hill Consensus Conference definition for GPA, respectively [13,14]. Disease activity was recorded in accordance with European League Against Rheumatism recommendations (Table 1) [15]. All patients and controls provided informed consent. The study was approved by the local ethics committee (#07-059). Antibodies used for flow cytometry The following antibodies were used in different combinations: Pacific blue (PB)-conjugated anti-CD3, PB- or phycoerythrin (PE)-conjugated anti-CD4, peridinin chlorophyll protein (PerCP)- or allophycocyanine-cyanine dye 7 (APC-Cy7)-conjugated anti-CD8, fluorescein isothiocyanate (FITC)-conjugated anti-CD45RA, Alexa Fluor 647-conjugated anti-CCR7, PE-Cy7- and PE-conjugated anti-CCR4, PE-conjugated anti-CCR6, APC-Cy7-conjugated anti-IFNγ, PE-Cy7-conjugated anti-IL-4, and Alexa Fluor 488-conjugated anti-IL-17a from eBioscience (Frankfurt, Germany) and APC-conjugated anti-IL-22 from R&D Systems (Wiesbaden, Germany). Appropriate isotype controls were included in the experimental setup. All antibodies (unless indicated otherwise) were purchased from BD Biosciences (Heidelberg, Germany). Surface marker and intracellular cytokine staining Flow cytometry was performed to characterize T cell populations at the single-cell level. Staining of cellular surface markers was performed by using freshly collected whole blood (Li-heparin) as described earlier [3]. Briefly, previously determined optimal concentrations of fluorochrome-conjugated monoclonal antibodies for cell surface antigens were added to 100 μL of whole blood and incubated 45 minutes in the dark at 4°C. Subsequently, erythrocytes were lysed by the addition of FACS (fluorescence-activated cell sorting) Lysing Solution (BD Pharmingen, Heidelberg, Germany). After incubation for another 10 minutes in the dark at room temperature, cells were washed twice with phosphate-buffered saline/0.01% bovine serum albumin and immediately analyzed by FACS. For intracellular cytokine staining, freshly collected whole blood was stimulated with phorbol myristate acetate (Sigma, Munich, Germany) (10 ng/mL) and ionomycin (Sigma) (1 μg/mL) for 4 hours at 37°C in a humidified atmosphere with 5% CO2. Brefeldin (Sigma) (10 μg/mL) was added at the beginning of the stimulation to inhibit cytokine secretion. After staining for surface antigens and lysing of erythrocytes with FACS Lysing Solution, cells were fixed and permeabilized with Cytofix/Cytoperm in accordance with the instructions of the manufacturer (BD Pharmingen). Staining of intracytoplasmatic cytokines was performed at 4°C for 45 minutes in the dark with previously determined optimal concentrations of fluorochrome-conjugated monoclonal antibodies for cytokines or appropriate negative (isotype) controls. Besides appropriate isotype controls, an unstimulated sample was included for each patient and control as a negative control. Flow cytometric analysis Multicolor flow cytometric analysis was performed on a FACS Canto II cytometer by using FACSDiva software (BD Biosciences). Lymphocytes were gated for analysis on the basis of light scattering properties and of CD3, CD4, and CD8 staining. Positively and negatively stained populations were calculated by quadrant dot plot analysis determined by isotype controls. Statistical analysis Statistics were performed by using Prism 4.0 (GraphPad Software, La Jolla, CA, USA). Comparisons between patients and control subjects were done by employing the non-parametric Mann-Whitney U test. P values equal to or less than 0.05 were considered to be statistically significant. Results Increased frequency of CCR4- and CCR6-expressing CD4+ T cells in granulomatosis with polyangiitis To assess CCRs relevant for migration to peripheral tissues, we determined the expression of the CCR4 and CCR6 on peripheral blood T cells in patients with GPA and healthy controls. We found a significant increase in the percentages of CCR4- and CCR6-expressing cells within the total CD4+ T cell population in patients with GPA compared with healthy individuals (Figure 1a, b). Apart from the CCR4+CCR6- and CCR4-CCR6+ 'single positive' subsets, a smaller fraction of CCR4+CCR6+ 'double positive' cells was detected within the CD4+ T cell population in patients with GPA and healthy controls (17.5% ± 4.8% versus 10.3% ± 0.6%, mean ± standard error of the mean, no significant difference, Mann-Whitney U test). Conversely, the remainder of cells within the CD4+ T-cell population were CCR4-CCR6- 'double negative' cells. In contrast, there was no difference in the percentages of CD8+CCR4+ and CD8+CCR6+ T cells between patients with GPA and healthy controls (data not shown). Figure 1. Increased frequencies of CD4+CCR4+ and CD4+CCR6+ T cells in patients with granulomatosis with polyangiitis (GPA). Percentages of CCR4+ (a) and CCR6+ (b) cells within the total CD4+ T cell population in patients with GPA and healthy controls (HCs). Percentages of positive cells were assessed by flow cytometry. Values are presented as mean ± standard error of the mean. ***P < 0.001, Mann-Whitney U test. CCR, CC chemokine receptor. CCR4 and CCR6 are expressed on distinct memory cell populations, including CCR7+CD45RAmed very early memory cells Having shown a significant increase in the frequencies of CCR4- and CCR6-expressing CD4+ T cells in patients with GPA, we were interested in phenotypic features of CCR4- and CCR6-expressing CD4+ T cells next. To assign CCR4+ and CCR6+ cells to the respective naïve and memory cell subsets, cells were additionally stained with fluorescent-conjugated antibodies for CD45RA and CCR7 to allow discrimination into diverse T cell subsets [2,16-18]. By the use of these markers, we found that CCR4 and CCR6 expression was confined largely to the circulating CCR7+CD45RA- central memory (TCM) and CCR7-CD45RA- (TEM) and CCR7-CD45RA+ (TEMRA) effector memory cell subsets within the total CD4+ T cell population. A significant increase in the frequency of CCR4+ and CCR6+ cells was remarkable in the CCR7-CD45RA+ effector memory (TEMRA) subset in patients with GPA. A significant increase in CCR6+ cells was also found in the CCR7+CD45RA- central memory T-cell subset (TCM). However, significantly increased percentages of CCR4+ and CCR6+ cells were also detected in the CCR7+CD45RA+ population, which contains naïve T cells (TN) by definition (Figure 2a, b). Dissecting the CCR7+CD45RA+ population with respect to CD45RA fluorescence intensity, we detected two subsets in the CCR7+CD45RA+ population. CCR7+CD45RAhigh T cells generally lacked CCR4 and CCR6 expression with the exception of three patients with GPA. In contrast, CCR7+CD45RAmed T cells displayed CCR4 and CCR6 expression. We found higher frequencies of CCR4+ and CCR6+ cells within the CCR7+CD45RAmed T cell subset in patients with GPA compared with healthy controls (Figure 2c, d). Thus, the CCR7+CD45RA+ population contained genuine CCR7+CD45RAhigh TN lacking CCR4 and CCR6 expression and another CCR7+CD45RAmed T cell subset comprising CCR4+ and CCR6+ cells. The latter was reminiscent of so-called very early memory T cells (TVEM) [19]. Figure 2. Increased percentages of CCR4+ and CCR6+ memory T cell subsets in patients with granulomatosis with polyangiitis (GPA). Percentages of CD4+CCR4+ (a) and CD4+CCR6+ (b) T cells in the CCR7+CD45RA- central memory (TCM), CCR7-CD45RA- effector memory (TEM), CCR7+CD45RA+ 'naïve by definition' (TN), and CCR7-CD45RA+ 'revertant' effector memory (TEMRA) populations. (c) Dissection of the CD4+CCR7+CD45RA+ population with regard to CD45RA fluorescence intensity into CCR7+CD45RAhigh cells representing genuine TN and CCR7+CD45RAmed cells reminiscent of very early memory T cells (TVEM). Percentages of CCR4+ and CCR6+ cells in the CCR7+CD45RAmed and CCR7+CD45RAhigh subsets are shown. (d) Representative quadrant dot-plot analysis showing segregation of the gated CD4+CCR7+CD45RA+ T cell population into two subsets. CCR7+CD45RAmed T cells displayed CCR4 and CCR6 expression (TVEM). CCR7+CD45RAhigh T cells lacked CCR4 and CCR6 expression (genuine TN). Numbers in quadrants and histograms represent percentages of cells. Percentages of positive cells were assessed by flow cytometry. Values are presented as mean ± standard error of the mean. *P < 0.05, ***P < 0.001, Mann-Whitney U test. CCR, CC chemokine receptor; HC, healthy control. Decreased frequency of CCR7+CD45RAhigh naïve T cells and unreduced frequency of CCR7+CD45RAmed very early memory T cells in granulomatosis with polyangiitis Earlier studies have reported significantly lower percentages of peripheral blood TN by using CCR7 and CD45RO or CD45RB expression for the phenotypic characterization of T cells in patients with GPA [20,21]. In this study, we showed a segregation of the CCR7+CD45RA+ T cell compartment into different two subsets based on CCR4 and CCR6 expression and CD45RA fluorescence intensity. This prompted us to investigate whether TN and TVEM frequencies were likewise decreased within the total CD4+ T-cell population. In line with the aforementioned earlier studies, we found a significantly lower percentage of CCR7+CD45RAhigh TN in patients with GPA compared with healthy controls [20,21]. In contrast, CCR7+CD45RAmed TVEM frequencies were similar in patients with GPA and healthy individuals (Figure 3). Figure 3. Decreased frequency of naïve T cells (TN) and unreduced frequency of very early memory T cells (TVEM) in patients with granulomatosis with polyangiitis (GPA). Percentages of CCR7+CD45RAmed TVEM and CCR7+CD45RAhigh TN in the CD4+ T cell population are shown. Percentages of positive cells were assessed by flow cytometry. Values are presented as mean ± standard error of the mean. **P < 0.01, Mann-Whitney U test. CCR, CC chemokine receptor; HC, healthy control. Distinct cytokine-producing subsets within CCR4+ and CCR6+ T-cell populations We showed increased frequencies of circulating CCR4- or CCR6-expressing (or both) CD4+ TCM, TEMRA, and TVEM in patients with GPA. To investigate functional features of CCR4+ and CCR6+ cells within the total CD4+ T cell population, peripheral blood cells were stained for intracellular cytokines. An IFNγ+ cell fraction was found in all CCR4+ or CCR6+ subsets or both. An increased percentage of IL-17+ and IL-22+ cells was detected in the CCR4-CCR6+ 'single positive' and CCR4+CCR6+ 'double positive' cell fractions when compared with the CCR4-CCR6- 'double negative' cell subset. Furthermore, an increased frequency of IL-4+ cells was shown in the CCR4+CCR6- 'single positive' cell fraction compared with the CCR4-CCR6- 'double negative' cell subset in both patients with GPA and healthy controls. CCR4-CCR6+ 'single positive' and CCR4+CCR6+ 'double positive' cells differed from each other with respect to the percentage of IFNγ-producing cells, which was significantly higher in the CCR4-CCR6+ 'single positive' fraction (P < 0.01, Mann-Whitney U test). The CCR4-CCR6- 'double negative' cell subset differed from the other subsets in that only an IFNγ+ cell fraction was remarkable in this subset (Table 2). Less than 1% of cells displayed intracellular co-expression of IL-17 and IL-22 in CCR6+ cells within the total CD4+ T-cell population (data not shown). Thus, circulating CD4+CCR4+ and CD4+CCR6+ T cell populations comprised distinct subsets of cytokine-producing cells. Discussion Chemokine receptors play an important role in mediating T cell recruitment to distinct anatomical sites and tissues [2]. Whereas the CC chemokine receptor CCR7 mediates homing of naïve (TN) and central memory (TCM) T cells to lymph nodes, other CC and CXC chemokine receptors (CCR/CXCR) trigger intravascular adhesion and direct migration of effector memory T cell subsets (CD45RA- TEM and CD45RA+ 'reverted' TEMRA) into peripheral tissues for patrol and recruitment to inflammatory sites [2,19]. Previously, cloned CCR6+ cells from peripheral blood and inflammatory sites in Crohn's disease have been shown to produce IL-17. In contrast, CCR4+ cells secrete IL-4 [11,12,22]. Recently, Th17-, Th22-, and Th2-type PR3-specific cells have been suggested to be involved in chronic inflammation and autoimmunity in GPA [8-10,23]. Moreover, an increased proportion of circulating CD45RClow Th2-type and Th17 cells has been reported in ANCA-associated vasculitides, including GPA. The increase is independent of disease duration and treatment [24]. Therefore, to investigate the extent to which CCR4 and CCR6 expression could be implicated in T-cell recruitment in GPA, we analyzed the expression of these chemokine receptors on T cells. In this study, we found increased frequencies of circulating CCR4+ and CCR6+ cells within the total CD4+ T cell population in GPA. In contrast, we found no significant increase in the frequencies of CCR4+ and CCR6+ cells in the total CD8+ T cell population. CCR4 and CCR6 expression suggests T cell activation [11,12]. Persistent T cell activation regardless of clinical disease activity has been reported in GPA [20,21,25]. Recently, stable CCR6 expression was reported to be controlled by epigenetic mechanisms [26]. In line with previous reports, CCR4 and CCR6 expression was confined largely to circulating CCR7+CD45RA- central memory (TCM), CCR7-CD45RA- (TEM), and CCR7-CD45RA+ (TEMRA) effector memory CD4+ T cells [11,12]. We found a significant increase in the frequency of CCR4+ and CCR6+ TEMRA and CCR6+ TCM in patients with GPA. Surprisingly, CCR4+ and CCR6+ cells were also detected within the CCR7+CD45RA+ population, which contains the naïve T cell subset (TN) by definition. TN are CD45RA+ and express CCR7 for peripheral lymph node homing but lack receptors such as CCR4 and CCR6 for the migration to peripheral tissues [2,16-18]. Further analysis dissecting the CCR7+CD45RA+ population with regard to CD45RA fluorescence intensity disclosed that the CCR7+CD45RA+ T-cell compartment contained two subsets. One subset of CCR7+CD45RAhigh T cells generally lacked CCR4 and CCR6 expression with the exception of three patients with GPA. Thus, CCR7+CD45RAhigh T cells represented genuine TN. CCR4 and CCR6 expression on CCR7+CD45RAhigh TN in individual patients with GPA could represent TN activation, which has been reported before by demonstrating an increased frequency of CD4+CD45RO-FoxP3- TN expressing the activation marker CD25 [20,25]. In line with earlier studies, we showed that the percentage of CCR7+CD45RAhigh TN within the total CD4+ T cell population was significantly lower in patients with GPA [20,21]. In contrast, the percentage of CCR7+CD45RAmed T cells was not decreased in patients with GPA. CCR7+CD45RAmed T cells displayed CCR4 and CCR6 expression reminiscent of so-called very early memory T cells (TVEM). Higher frequencies of CCR4+ and CCR6+ cells within the CCR7+CD45RAmed TVEM subset were found in patients with GPA compared with healthy controls. TVEM have been described earlier as 'apparently TN' oddly displaying chemokine receptors for both lymph node homing (CCR7) and peripheral tissue migration (CCR4 and CXCR3) in healthy individuals by Song and colleagues [19]. Analysis of the proliferation history, T-cell receptor repertoire, and cytokine response of CCR4- and CXCR3-expressing CCR7+CD45RO- T cells suggests that these cells represent TVEM, which have proceeded only a short way along the differentiation pathway from TN to TCM or TEM. TVEM are still multifunctional but finally differentiate into either TCM or TEM [19]. Earlier studies showed that chemokine receptor expression for lymph node homing (CCR7) and peripheral tissue migration (for example, CCR4) is not mutually exclusive on T cell subsets [27]. The migratory behavior of TEM displaying dual-chemokine receptor expression is determined by chemotactic gradients and cytokine- and T-cell receptor (TCR)-mediated signals [28]. CCR4-expressing CCR7+ TEM have been reported in inflamed peripheral tissues (for example, in psoriasis and juvenile idiopathic arthritis) [29,30]. Whereas CCR7- TEM remain in the peripheral tissue, CCR7+ TEM migrate to peripheral tissues and subsequently exit the tissue to enter draining lymph nodes in different animal models [31,32]. Although CCR7+ TEM retain a capability to enter lymph nodes, inflammatory cytokines can subvert migration of CCR7+ TEM, resulting in the retention of CCR7+ TEM in the inflamed synovial tissue [33]. Cytokines also drive the differentiation of CCR4-expressing CCR7+ TCM to CCR7- TEM [22]. Of note, CCR7+ TEM accumulate in areas of ectopic lymphoid tissue in the inflamed synovial tissue [30]. In contrast, CCR4-expressing CCR7+ TVEM reside or recirculate in secondary lymphoid tissues, where they continue to differentiate and acquire further chemokine receptors for peripheral tissue migration [19]. Having shown increased frequencies of circulating CCR4- and CCR6-expressing CD4+ memory T cell subsets, including TVEM in patients with GPA, we analyzed the cytokine production of CCR4+ and CCR6+ T cells. Previously, cloned and, as such, preselected CCR6+ cells were reported to secrete IL-17, whereas CCR4+ T cells produce IL-4 [11,12]. In our study, we found an increased percentage of IL-17- and IL-22-producing cells in the CCR4-CCR6+ 'single positive' and CCR4+CCR6+ 'double positive' cell subsets and an increased frequency of IL-4+ cells in the CRR4+CCR6- 'single positive' cell subset compared with the CCR4-CCR6- 'double negative' cell subset within the total circulating CD4+ T-cell population. Thus, in line with earlier studies, we found Th17 cells within circulating CCR6+ cells and Th2-type cells among CCR4+ cells [11,12]. Moreover, CCR4-CCR6+ 'single positive' and CCR4+CCR6+ 'double positive' cells differed from each other with respect to the percentage of IFNγ-producing cells, which was higher in the former cell population. Conclusions We found increased frequencies of circulating CCR4+ and CCR6+ T cells in patients with GPA. CCR4 and CCR6 expression was confined largely to central memory (TCM) and effector memory (TEM and TEMRA) subsets but could also be detected on very early memory T cells (TVEM) displaying chemokine receptors for both lymph node homing (CCR7) and peripheral tissue migration (CCR4 and CCR6). CD4+CCR4+ and CD4+CCR6+ T-cell populations contained distinct cytokine-producing subsets. Our data suggest that CCR4 and CCR6 could be involved in the recruitment of different T cell subsets, including cytokine-producing cells, to inflamed sites in patients with GPA. Further studies are needed to assess CCR4+ and CCR6+ T cell reactivity to the respective chemokine gradients and the expression of CCR4, CCR6, and their chemokine ligands in inflammatory lesions in patients with GPA in order to define new targets for therapeutic intervention. Abbreviations ANCA: anti-neutrophil cytoplasmic autoantibodies; APC: allophycocyanine; APC-Cy7: allophycocyanine-cyanine dye 7; CCR: CC chemokine receptor; CXCR: CXC chemokine receptor; Cy7: cyanine dye 7; FACS: fluorescence-activated cell sorting; GPA: granulomatosis with polyangiitis (Wegener's); IFNγ: interferon-gamma; IL: interleukin; PB: Pacific blue; PE: phycoerythrin; PR3: proteinase 3; TCM: central memory T cells; TEM: CD45RA- effector memory T cells; TEMRA: CD45RA+ effector memory T cells; Th: T-helper cell; TN: naïve T cells; TVEM: very early memory T cells. Competing interests The authors declare that they have no competing interests. Authors' contributions UF participated in the design of the study, acquisition of data, interpretation of the results, and drafting of the manuscript. SP participated in the acquisition of data, interpretation of results, and drafting of the manuscript. WLG participated in the coordination of the study and assisted in the interpretation of the results. PL conceived the study, participated in its design and coordination and the interpretation of the results, and drafted of the manuscript. All authors read and approved the final manuscript. Authors' information UF, Ph.D., is a biologist. SP is a medical technician. WLG, M.D., is the director of the Department of Rheumatology and spokesman of the Vasculitis Center UKSH and Clinical Research Unit 170. PL, M.D., is the coordinator of Clinical Research Unit 170. All authors are at the Department of Rheumatology, Vasculitis Center UKSH and Clinical Center Bad Bramstedt, University of Lübeck (Lübeck, Germany). Acknowledgements This work was supported by the German Research Foundation-funded Clinical Research Unit 170 'Early pathogenesis of Wegener's granulomatosis', Excellence Cluster 'Inflammation at Interfaces' (JRG-Ih), University-funded Priority Program Autoimmunity, and a grant from the Association for the Promotion of the Study and Control of Rheumatic Diseases (Bad Bramstedt, Germany). References Woodland DL, Dutton RW: Heterogeneity of CD4+ and CD8+ T cells. Curr Opin Immunol 2003, 15:336-342. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text Von Andrian U, Mackay CR: T-cell function and migration. Two sides of the same coin. N Engl J Med 2000, 343:1020-1034. PubMed Abstract | Publisher Full Text Lamprecht P, Erdmann A, Mueller A, Csernok E, Reinhold-Keller E, Holl-Ulrich K, Feller AC, Bruehl H, Gross WL: Heterogeneity of CD4+ and CD8+ memory T cells in localized and generalized Wegener's granulomatosis. Arthritis Res Ther 2003, 5:R25-31. 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Tbird Reunion in EuropeA Smashing Success a capacity crowd of more than 200 guests. Charles Mannel, Thunderbird's Vice President for Corporate Relations flew to Paris to enjoy the festivities and update overseas alumni on the Susan "Sunny" Duval (standing), one of the key organizers of the reunion, checks on a happy table ofTbirds. Dr. Midhatj. Gazale, CEO of Sperry -France and a Vice President of Sperry Corporation, was the keynote speaker at Saturday's banquet. Gazale, a major figure in the European computer industry, predicted that companies will increase their productivity and get rid of bottlenecks in program development only if they are able to decentralize computer know-how. ~ DOlmirliqileThisse '79, President ofthe Thunderbird Alumni Association of Europe and one of the reunion's k«:y organizers. "Welcome to Paris! Luckily, it's a growth of the School. He asked for long, long way from Glendale~' their assistance, not only in financial Bill Sigal '58 support, but also through recruiting On that note, T'birds gathered from students, hiring Tbirds, and promoting all over Europe for a historical three-day Thunderbird in the press as well as reunion, celebrating both their com- the European business community. mon Thunderbird bond and the glOriOUS Mannel called the reunion "of great City of lights, Paris. The six months value to the Schoot' of planning by the Thunderbird Alumni The denouement of the weekend Association of Europe, culminated was a Sunday brunch at the home of in a tremendously successful weekend Martine Ferino '83. More than 100 with more than 200 Tbirds and attended to clink champagne glasses guests attending. and plan for the next reunion in Bad With hotel reservations made for Ischl on May 25-26, 1985. Much of the them in advance, Tbirds from West credit for the weekend's success goes Germany, Luxembourg, Belgium, The to a team of five Paris-based alumni: Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Susan Duval '77, Janet Strube '81, Lona Spain, France, Great Britain, Norway, Thorn '83, Pierre Carras '81, and Finland and even a few from the United Dominique Thisse '80. Cheers to them States, came to enjoy fine dining and and the entire Thunderbird Alumni even finer company. It was the fifth inter- Association of Europe. national reunion in Europe. On Friday night, 150 Tbirds relaxed from their travels at a wine and cheese party held at the American Legion. literally litres of champagne and Touraine wine were offered by wine companies, and forty varieties of cheese from different regions of France were served. The next day, 50 savored lunch on the Bateau-Mouche. As they cruised the Seine, Tbirds had an opportunity to enjoy the sunshine and get to know each other better. Saturday night's buffet dinner and dancing at the Eiffel Tower, with its breathtaking view of the city, brought john Cook '79, the newly elected alumni representative for Europe on the Thunderbird Alumni Association board, welcomes Char1es Mannel, Thunderbird's Vice President for Corporate Relations. Mannel, overwhelmed by the weekend's events, termed the reunion, "Fantastic! Outstanding! The best organized alumni event I have ever attended-anywhere in the world!' Saturday's cruise along the Seine gave more than fifty T'birds a chance to get to know each other better. Others opted to shop and Sightsee on their own. At Saturday night's gala every woman was given a lovely leather portfolio case, while the gentlemen received two mini-bottles of Grand Mamier. In addition, each couple received two decks of playing cards with the Thunderbird logo on them, courtesy of Hansjany'75. Tell Us What You Think Starting with this issue, the Update Section of the Thunderbird Magazine has a new format, giving a geographical breakdown of our alumni. We hope the layout highlights the uniqueness of the Thunderbird alumni body and will facilitate your efforts to stay in touch with fellow Tbirds. As always, we'd like to hear your thoughts and ideas on this change and any other suggestions you may have for the magazine. Contact Nelda Crowell, Director of Communications. ON THE COVER John]. Madison '67 and his wife, Nola, own John]. Madison Co., Inc. in Laguna Hills, California. They import, promote and distribute a line of handmade ceramic figurines from Montevideo, Uruguay, know as the Artesania Rinconada Collection. Their account base presently exceeds 7500 retailers and annual gross sales are in excess of $2.5 million. John is a member of Thunderbird's President Council. THUNDERBIRD magazz•n e inside cover European Reunion ... a historic gathering of Tbirds in Paris. 2 Thunderbird Entrepreneurs ... a group of successful Tbird entrepreneurs tell how and why they blazed their own trails 10 Thunderbird Network 12 Thunderbird Contacts ... Moving to a new city? .. Know someone interested in attending Thunderbird? .. This list of alumni may be of help to you 15 Alumni Updates Thunderbird Magazine Winter '84/'85 Quarterly magazine of the Alumni Relations Office of the American Graduate School of International Management, Thunderbird Campus Glendale, AZ 85306 (602) 978-7135 TELEX 18-7123 Director of Communications and Editor: Nelda S. Crowell Managing Editor: Nancy Smith Nebeker Communications Secretary Irene M. Ringdahl Student Assistants, Communications Mary O'Kate Rafferty '84 Theresa M. Gruber '85 David Bearden '85 James E Johnson '85 Photographers: Marc Gallin '85 Patricia Grasso '85 Kent Sievers Photography Design: Pat Kenny GraphiC Design Director of Alumni Relations alld Publisher: Wtryne M. Pulver 70/78 Alumni Relations Staff: Cathy Benoit, Executive Secretary Donna Cleland, Records Coordinator Elisabeth Aim-Klemme Mari Carmen Alverez-Buschmann Lisa Stoneking-Simone Students Assistants, Alumni Relations Office: Amy Blanken '85 Kathryn Curley '84 Diane Diesing '85 Gregory Moore '85 Jodi Simpson '85 Suzanne Stott '85 T'bird Entrepreneurs Introduction Due to the recent economic growth and recovery in the United States, 1984 has been a record-breakingyear for the establishment of new businesses-more than 800,000. Not surprisingly, it has also been a record year for small business failures. Although it is impossible to document the exact number, we know that T'bird entrepreneurs are plentiful and diverse. Some people estimate that as many as one out of every four Thunderbird alumni are involved in entrepreneurial pursuits, according to Dr. Clifton B. Cox, Chairman of the World Business Department. With that in mind, Thunderbird Magazine sampled some successful Tbird entrepreneurs to hear their stories and discover how and why they chose to blaze their own trails. The account that follows may be of interest to alumni considering a transition into the risky but appealing world of the entrepreneur. Twenty men and two women responded to a series of questions on their background and professional pursuits posed to them lryThunderbird Magazine Seven of them operate businesses 2 abroad, while many more are based in the U.S. but do a great deal of their work in the international marketplace. All of them are die-hard entrepreneurs who can't imagine workingfor someone else again. Get the Training Of the twenty-two alumni sharing their experiences and inSights, nineteen said they had concentrated on marketing courses while at Thunderbird. The other three said their focus had been general management as well as accounting and finance, and at least one of them has felt a need for more marketing coursework. Christine Wilfer 76, President of Elite Services International, Inc., said "~ concentrated on finance and accounting, but my experience since graduation has been almost exclUSively in accounting and general management. I'm really sorry I didn't take more marketing at Thunderbird~' Armed with their Thunderbird degree and a heavy dose of marketing, these future entrepreneurs all joined other companies after graduation. Many went through extensive and valuable training programs with the likes of Colgate-Palmolive, Chrysler, J.I. Case, and Ford Motor. All of them maintain that their professional training with other companies was critical to the success of setting up their own businesses. "Learn on their time and money," said Jerome Firsty '57, President of Firbeck Inc., a firm of manufacturing representatives for school and office supplies. Firsty worked for Avon, Continental Can, and Hazel Bishop prior to setting out on his own. Take the Plunge But had they all planned someday to foresake the big corporate world to chart their own course? Interestingly, only half said they knew from the outset that one day they wanted to run their own show. Many felt like Dennis Oshiro 72 who says, "Originally, it was my intention to remain in a large organization to prOVide security for my wife and two children~' Oshiro, who runs a professional consulting firm, International Business Resources, Inc., decided in the end, that he could better proVide for the needs of his family on his own. Stephen Hall '69, President of Food Marketing International, Inc., decided to become an entrepreneur while attending Thunderbird. For many others, however, the transition to the entrepreneurial world was accompanied by a major transition in their personal lives: divorce, children growing "Lee Importers Ltd. gave me the opportunity to travel all over the world to do bUSiness-Japan, Formosa, Hong Kong, the Middle East, Africa, Europe, the Caribbean and China. This could never have been possible without establishing my own company" George Lee '58 President Lee Importers, Ltd. THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '84/'85 up, death in the family, loss of job. Others fOUli.d the frustration with corporate red tape and in-house politics, along with the allure of greener pastures, was enough to make them take the leap. Donald Schroeder '57, who in 1983 sold his tractor company to J,I. Case (Tenneco) remembers, "I had not planned on starting my own business, but I got tired of making millionaires in various countries and I thought I'd try it myself~' Many of the Tbirds we talked to like Charles Shields 71, President of Shields Corporations, were inspired by the success of others. "I always wanted to go out on my own, and after seeing the successes of German, French, English and Swedish entrepreneurs and working for them, I was convinced I could do it too~' This kind of conviction and confidence was a critical factor for each of the alumni interviewed. GeraldMirkin '47, President of Mirkin Motor Sales, remembers the choice of going out on his own related to two factors: lithe desire to provide well for my wife and children and the confidence I could do well on my own~' As all of these entrepreneurs will testify, if you don't believe in yourself and your project, you're doomed from the start. Enjoy the Rewards Once the transition is made, the advantages of being your own boss become very evident. Lianne Sorkin 72, President of Sorkin Associates, an independent business consulting firm in New York, sees the advantages very dearly after a number of years with Metropolitan Life Insurance. She sees it as lithe flexibility to choose your work and chart your own career path~' john G. Hoyt '56, takes a practical view of the advantages, which for him as President of Freedom Yachts in Newport, Rhode Island, means lithe ability to quickly translate ideas into products~' Many of his fellow Tbird entrepreneurs echoed the sentiment that personal creativity is no longer stifled by corporate red tape. When asked directly about the advantages of being their own boss, the THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '84/'85 James Kohl, President of ETEK Electronics Corporation, reviews a shipment for Brazil. Says Kohl, "The ability to create an organization to serve customers in the manner I believe in ... gives great satisfaction. word "freedom" was used most often to describe the positive factors of entrepreneurship. For Charles Muse '50, President of Intergraphic, Inc. in Panama, it's the "freedom to dream and experirnent:' For William Pennel '64, President of Intercontinental Motors in Houston, it's the "freedom of operations~' And for Donald Schroeder '57, retired President of Frontier Tractor, it's the "freedom to put your ideas into motion~' john]. Madison '67, President ofJohnJ. Madison Inc. in California, says it's the "freedom to explore other avenues of interest, Christine Wilfer '76, President of Elite Services International, Inc., didn't meet success the first time out. "My first venture ... was a consulting firm based in Fairbanks. Admittedly not having done my market research, the business was very short-lived; most of these people had gone to Alaska to do their own thing and were not about to listen to anybody else tell them how to run their show!" personally and professionally' And james Stanley '53, President of Fuertejidos, S.A. in San Jose, Costa Rica thrives on the "freedom of schedule and lifestyle~' Accept the Challenges Diego Veitia '66, President ofInternational Assets Advisory Corporation in Winter Park, Florida agrees with Stanley, but says the "advantage is sometimes paradoxical, for even though there is individual time available, those of us who run our own companies seldom exercise such options~' Veitia 3 "When my first big client delayed paying his bill almost two months because of his cash flow problems, I was left with less than 30 percent of my working capital, and feeling the spectre of impending doom:' Gregor]. Hargrett '68 President Overseas Duty Free Supply Corp. maintains that most successful entrepreneurs "are tougher on themselves than others would be on them had they remained in corporate structure:' The problem that Veitia alludes to was identified as the "buck stops here" syndrome, by Harriet Weaver, wife of the late Jesse 0. Weaver '58. The Weavers spent more than 30 years in Paraguay; most of the time operating their own businesses, and they have enjoyed the advantages as well as Peter R Cozzetto '52, President of CESCO Export, Inc., stands with diesel generating sets ready borne the burdens. for export to Venezuela. Says Cozzetto, "Most important, I believe, is the satisfaction of embarking As Stephen Hall puts it, lithe tyranny on a program for introduction of a new product and watch it bear fruit, all based on your own is that the job is always there:' More planning!' specifically; Gregor Hargrett '68, 4 Lianne Sorkin '72, President of Sorkin Associates, came to campus last December to speak about "International Entrepreneurship!' William O. Pennel,Jr. '64, President ofIntercontinental Motors, Inc., in Houston is a diehard entrepreneur who had always planned to go out on his own. Says Pennel, "Spending eleven years with large corporations proved I was right from the start!' President of Overseas Duty Free Supply Diego J. Veitia '66, President oflnternational Assets Advisory Corporation in Winter Park, Florida, looks at the sometimes rocky road of the entrepreneur with a philosophical and yet humorous edge. Says Veitia, "Some of our experiences have been difficult, but we have been able to learn from them. Like Nietzsche said, 'Any experience that doesn't kill you, makes you a better man!" in Miami, Florida, identifies it as lithe devotion, actually overdevotion, to serving clients well. In a small company; everything becomes very personal and so you work very hard to keep clients satisfied. It tires:' There are, of course, other disadvantages, not the least of them being financial. Paul Donnelly '67, is involved in several entrepreneurial pursuits in Caracas, Venezuela. He says he has experienced several failures as an independent businessman and has found that lithe biggest disadvantage THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '84/'85 is the lack of working capital to continue operations without too much internal turbulence:' Peter R. Cozzetto '52, President of C~sco Export, Inc., says simply "you have to prepare for the feast and famine cycle:' According to John Madison, "One of the biggest disadvantages is having to secure your company's business loans through your personal assets. Commerical banks make it a practice of requiring, from the owners of closely held corporations, continual guarantees:' For some, the right "timing" minimized some of the disadvantages. James Kohl 71, President ofETEK Electronics Corporation, was one who found the right time critical in his move. "Timing was very important both personally, because I was ready to return to the U.S., and economically, since the explosive growth of Latin American high-tech industries was demanding qualified electronics exporters in the US' According to Christy Peake '79, President of Robot Defense Systems, Inc., timing is also a crucial factor in his industry. "Most of the major defense contractors are only now developing plans ... By being small, focused, and pragmatic, we have hardware available where most companies have only ideas:' Deal with Disaster Although all are successful now, that doesn't mean these Tbirds didn't struggle and make mistakes along the way. Surviving the early years for most, was very, very difficult. After that, shifts in the economy, and sometimes changes in the political climate of the foreign countries in which they were based, had a serious impact on operations. In 1969, for example, George Lee '58, President of Lee Importers, Ltd., found "In January 1983, Fujitsu sent me to Japan to teach them how to automate their electronic interconnect operations!! An American teaching the Japanese about automation and electronics!!" Charles Shields '71 President Shields Corporation THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '84/'85 PRACTICAL ADVICE FROM THE EXPERTS On Making Your Move DO 1. Work for a company in your field of interest first. Learn, get experience, and then go out on your own. 2. Assess your own capabilities and choose a career where you have a comparative advantage. 3. Find a need and fill it. 4. Consider relocating geographically to an area which would be more advantageous. 5. Know your market intimately. 6. Make sure you are well-financed. 7. Cultivate good bank relations from the beginning. 8. Economize in everything you do. 9. Prepare a detailed business plan before starting out-yet remain flexible. 10. Develop long-range goals. 11. If possible, buy an on-gOing business. 12. If franchised, go with the winner, not the "second best" name in the industry. DON'T 1. Don't go into a business you know nothing about. 2. Don't approach your enterprise casually; it takes long hours of hard work to recognize and seize opportunities. 3. Don't start without a detailed business plan. 4. Don't take anyone's word for factinvestigate for yourself. 5. Don't undercapitalize. 6. Don't abandon or greatly vary your plan on impulse. 7. Don't underestimate the amount of work you have to do. 8. Don't be afraid to start small. 9. Don't go into partnership if you can do it alone. 10. Don't get a fancy office-work from home if possible. On Your Day To Day Operations DO 1. Be organized and disciplined. 2. Exercise daily controls. 3. Know your distribution channels. 4. Be aware of your own limitations and compensate for them by hiring people who are strong in areas you are not. 5. Hire top caliber people-take more time hiring than training. Surround yourself with people "smarter" than you are. 6. Remember that morale in a small company is critica1. 7. Get a top flight attorney and a CPA with a good background in tax accounting. DON'T 1. Don't remove yourself from day to day operations-keep your finger on the pulse of the operation. 2. Don't ignore diverse challenges and opportunities-be very flexible. 3. Don't ever compromise on the quali of product or service. 4. Don't neglect your market research or your publicity. 5. Don't try to please everyone. 6. Don't ever think you are too good to sweep out the store. 7. Don't be overconfident-control debt. On Surviving DON'T 1. Don't believe most doubters. 2. Don't expect instant success. 3. Don't buck a trend in the economy. 4. Don't get discouraged by setbacks. 5. Don't ever lose faith in yourself. 6. Don't burn yourself out-getting away for even a few hours can give you a new perspective. DO 1. Prepare yourself to work hard from day one. 2. Employ a tremendous sense of humor. 3. Take some reasonable risks. 4. Believe in yourself. Stephen Hall '69, President of Food Marketing International, Inc., at Boston Harbor toasting the arrival of a large shipment of tea from England. himself in dire straits. His company purchased a building to develop a much larger undertaking than had been anticipated. The bank called the loan and Lee Importers almost went bankrupt. According to Lee, the experience was a terrific learning opportunity. He took drastic steps. By reducing staff from thirty to four and closing three branch offices, the situation turned around within a year. Potential disaster struck Peter Cozzetto in the form of a trumped-up lawsuit filed against his company in Saudi "I've seen too many decisions awarded for fancy footwork in the ring of the large corporate executive suite. I prefer a flatfooted stance in the arena of individual entrepreneurship, where only the blows that connect count, wins inspire, and losses don't embitter.' Charles Muse '50 President Intergraphic, Inc. Arabia for "non-delivery' He was held in Saudi Arabia for thirty days before he was permitted to return home and prepare the company's defense. They proved their innocence with nothing more than signed delivery receipts, but the incident cost them thousands of dollars. Ronald PfafJlin 73, Partner in Phoenix Pacific Incorporated, remembers that the early days for his company were very tough. "We put up a certain amount of cash and started 6 Gerald Mirkin '47, President of Mirkin Volkswagen in Hawthorne, California recommends in-depth knowledge and experience in the industry before doing it alone. After fourteen years managing a Chevrolet dealership, Mirkin says when he went out on his own, "There were no surprises!' before having all our finances secured. It made times very hard ... ~' Five years ago, however, his company won a contract bid to do a traffic control system for Seoul, Korea, beating out several other large corporations. Pfafflin's company is still the only recognized supplier in that city and, with the 1988 OlympiC games in Seoul, they expect to be very busy. You're on Your Own Nevertheless, when asked if they would do it all again, the answer is a resounding "Yes~' If anything, they would have started earlier. However, that's not to say they wouldn't do things differently. Stephen Hall says he would have become tougher earlier. "In some ways, business is war~' Likewise, Charles Muse says he would "prune out dead wood in personnel and chop off marginal operations much more quicklY.' Perhaps realism has colored some of the idealism of the early days. Clearly, experience has seasoned but not deterred these entrepreneurs. To some degree, they all share Dennis Oshiro's philosophy of survival. "I like to sink or swim on my own merits;' says Oshiro. "I am not afraid to make mistakes .... A mistake hurts, but it is not the end of the world. I do not expect to win all the time, just most of the time~' These Tbird entrepreneurs are doing just that in big businesses and small shops, alone or in groups, all over the world. Nancy Smith Nebeker Faculty Member Publishes Getting Your Yen's Worlh: How to Negotiate with japan, Inc. is a new book by Dr. Robert Moran, Professor of International Studies, published by Gulf Publishing Company. The cover of the book carries a warning, "This is not just another book about 'inscrutable' Japanese management. It is a success formula for going head to head with America's most competitive trading partner~' A reviewer for the Asian wall Street Journal stated that the book, "while aimed at Americans, contains tips that can be helpful for any international businessman .. .Its practical advice on how to negotiate effectively in Japan is extremely valuable. Dr. Moran's most practical tips appear in sections concerning 'ground rules' for and 'secrets' of successful negotiation. These deal with the importance of personal relationships, the need to gauge the degree of commitment expressed by the Japanese to a particular provision, the extreme cultural dissimilarity in what each culture perceives as 'acceptable' behavior and an understanding of the vertically structured interpersonal relationships in Japan:' Copies of the book may be ordered through the Thunderbird Bookstore. The price is $8.95 plus 15 percent for postage and handling within the U.S. Foreign orders will differ in cost; please inquire. Looking Ahead The Thunderbird Magazine would like to do an article about second and third generation T'birds. We need your help identifying alumni with more than one T'bird in their family. If your mother or father, sister or brother, son or daughter has also attended Thunderbird, or if they are currently enrolled, please contact us. We'd like to tell your story. Write to Nelda Crowell, Director of Communications. TIlUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '84/'85 I Campus NEWS James Parkel Elected to Board of Trustees During the annual meeting of the Board of Trustees in October, Mr. James Parkel, Director of Personnel Services, ffiM, was elected to the Board. Mr. Parkel joined ffiM in 1962 as a junior engineer after graduating from the University of Denver with a B.S. in electrical engineering. After working in process control development, he was transferred to marketing as a sales engineer. He began his personnel career in 1966 and in December 1974, was promoted to corporate director of management development planning. The following year he joined the ffiM Americas/Far East Corporation in international personnel where he held the position of director of personnel, from July 1977 to April 1981. He was then named ffiM director of employment and recruiting until July 1982 when he was appOinted to his present position. Other actions taken by the Board included approval of the changes in degree requirements recommended by the faculty for the World Business and Modern Language departments effective Fall 1985, and approval of the Thunderbird Alumni Association, Inc., as the exclusive organization to represent Thunderbird alumni. Keeping in Touch Every day the Alumni Relations Office helps keep the Thunderbird Network alive and well by putting Tbirds in touch with one another. The office handles dozens of inquiries daily and needs your assistance in order to serve you more efficiently and effectively. We ask that you use your identification number when you write or call campus. Your identification number is found in the upper left-hand corner of the labels on all mail addressed to you from School. The Alumni Relations Office appreCiates your cooperation and looks forward to hearing from you! THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '84/'85 James G. Parke) John F. Burlingame Journal Invites Manuscripts The editorial staff of the Journal of Language for International Business invites Thunderbird alumni to submit manuscripts for consideration. Although most articles are in English, the journal also accepts articles in Arabic, Chinese, French, German, Japanese, Portuguese, and Spanish. Articles should relate some aspect of language, culture, or area studies to international business. The journal also seeks advertisers and subscribers. Subscriptions are $15 for indiViduals, $25 for libraries and institutions, and $35 for subscribers outside the United States. Manuscripts as well as subscription and advertisement inquiries should be addressed to: Jorge H. Valdivieso, Editor The Journal of Language for International Business Department of Modern Languages American Graduate School of International Management Glendale, Arizona 85306 IBW Thunderbird International Business Women (ffiW) announces publication of the 3rd edition of Connections in February 1985. Connections, a directory of the growing international professional network ofThunderbird women, is expanding. This latest edition includes almost 300 new additions and updates. For more information contact: ffiW; c/o Alumni Relations Office. International Executive of the Year John E Burlingame, Vice Chairman and Executive Officer of General Electric Company, was honored in October as the 1984 International Executive of the Year. The annual award recognizes an executive who has fostered international understanding through effective business management on a global scale. Burlingame is the ninth recipient of the School's award. Mr. Burlingame, who holds a degree in physics, began his General Electric career in the company's aerospace business after serving as an officer in the U.S. Navy during World War II. Selected a vice president in 1969, he became a senior vice preSident and executive in charge of the international sector in 1977. In 1979, he was elected a vice chairman and in 1983, Mr. Burlingame became vice preSident and group executive of the International and Canadian Group. In Memory John Steven Kelly, Professor Emeritus of the Department of International Studies, died on November 26, 1984. Dr. Kelly taught at Thunderbird from 1963 to 1980 when he retired and was chosen Professor Emeritus. Dr. Kelly introduced courses on Western Europe, and International Relations Theory and Policy Making into the Department of International Studies curriculum and is the father of the present U.S. Foreign Policy course. Dr. Kelly served as Chairman of the International Studies Department in 1968 and for seven years served as preSident of the Thunderbird Chapter of the American Association of Un iversity Professors (AAUP). A Memorial Fund has been established to assist veterans in purchasing materials for classes. Checks may be made payable to the John Kelly Memorial Fund. 7 Faculty and Administrators Associate Professor Clifford Call was appointed Director of the Executive Language Program, formerly known as the Keyman Program. He replaced Larry Finney who resigned from the position July 1,1984. Nelda Crowell, Director of Communications, chaired a seminar on public relations for the American Assembly of Collegiate Schools of Business in Chicago. Dr. John Frankenstein, Assistant Professor of International Studies, attended the annual meeting of the International Studies Association Section of Military Studies in October, held at the U.S. Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs. He participated in two panels, one discussing defense industrialization in developing countries, and the other discussing recent developments in the People's Republic of China. Dr. Marshall GeerVice President for Academic Affairs, was appointed to a four-year term as a commissioner-atlarge for the Commission on Institutions of Higher Education of the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools. Dr. Geer and Dr. Dennis Guthery, Professor of Marketing, attended the 1984 Business Association for Latin American Studies Annual Conference held at Seeley Lake, Montana. Both participated as members of a panel discussing business ethics in Latin America. Dr. Guthery also served as the marketing track chairperson. Assistant Professor Bahia Gulick chaired a panel on "Language and Linguistics" for the annual meeting of the Middle East Studies Association of North America and the Professors of Arabic Language. Dr. Duane Hall, Professor of World Business, was a featured speaker at the International Education Resource Conference held in Los Angeles. William King, Professor of Modern Languages, was elected to the Executive Committee of the National Council of Teachers of English. Dr. Issa Peters, Professor of Arabic and Middle Eastern Studies, attended the Middle East Institute Conference held in Washington, D.C. He also presented a paper entitled "Saudi 8 Allen Wallis, Undersecretary of State for Economic Affairs, spoke on campus in October. Arabian Women's Participation in the Banking Industry" to the International Studies Association, Western Region, at the University of Denver. Dr. Robert Ramsey, Professor of English as a Second Language, administered the University of Michigan Examination for Certificate of Proficiency in English on campus. Twenty-three candidates sat for the exam. Elza White, Professor of French, was the reCipient of the first sabbatical leave ever offered by Thunderbird. She spent one week at the Njenrode Institute in Amsterdam and then continued on to France to study French technical and business terminology at the College International at Castelnaurady: President William Voris delivered the keynote address at the regional meeting of the National Association of Foreign Student Advisors at the University of Arizona. His speech was entitled "The Age of Interdependence~' Representatives of some 100 southwestern universities and colleges attended. Homecoming The tenth annual Balloon Race was the focus of alumni Homecoming activities in November. Nearly 140 alumni and spouses gathered on the campus for the International Dinner and Auction and the annual Alumni Homecoming Barbecue. Next year's All-Alumni Homecoming will also be held during the Balloon Race Weekend, November 9-10. Plan now to attend. 25th Reunion for the Class of 1960 A special 25th Reunion for the Class of 1960 will be held on May 16 and 17, 1985. The reunion festivities will coincide with Spring Commencement and we hope you will contact your classmates now and plan to attend. Several members of the class are helping to organize the event. Please feel free to contact one of the follOWing alumni or the Alumni Relations Office for more information about the reunion: Stu Coit at his home in Scottsdale, AZ (602) 947-5890; Bill Johnson at his office in San Antonio, TX (512) 344-0692; or Chuck Gist at his home in Danville, CA (415) 838-8232. In addition to reunion plans, several members of the Class of '60 have organized to consider the possibility of a special fundraising project for the class, which would result in a gift oflasting value to the School. Bill Johnson,Jerry Holmes, Paul Reiss and Mike Santellanes are spearheading the project and would greatly appreciate your thoughts and assistance. Contact the Alumni Relations Office at (602) 978-7135 if you would like to get involved. We look forward to seeing you in May! Berger Erickson, Thunderbird's Executive Vice President, greets Arthur L Peterson and his wife, Connie. Peterson was President of Thunderbird from 1964 to 1968 and was recently made President of Lebanon Valley College in Annville, PA. THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '84/'85 Delta Phi Epsilon Delta Phi Epsilon, the National Foreign Service International Society, is seeking to reactivate the Lambda Chapter at Thunderbird. The society is a professional foreign service organization, composed of men and women dedicated to an overseas career in diplomacy; foreign trade, international banking, and similar professions. The Lambda Chapter was established on campus in 1949 and remained active until the late 1970s. Martha 1. Snyder, former Alumni Secretary at Thunderbird, is in charge of the reorganization effort. She can be reached at: 6050 North 21 st Ave. #B, Phoenix, AZ 95015; telephone: (602) 249-0229. William Voris, President of Thunderbird, and John Reed, CEO of Citibank, examine the World Clock presented to Citibank for having donated more than a quarter of a million dollars to Thunderbird. The presentation was made at Citibank headquarters in New York. The clock, which was specially made for the School by the Franklin Mint, tells the time in major cities around the world. European Business School Exchange Nineteen German students enrolled during the Fall Semester under the fIrst semester-long exchange program between Thunderbird and the European Business School in West Germany. An equal number ofT'birds will be attending the European Business School in the spring. During the 1984 Europea. n summer program, 43 students from Thunderbird attended a three week course at the European Business School and then went on to attend classes in F~ance and Belgium. THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '84/'85 The International Executive journal Negotiations have been completed for Thunderbird to assume publication of The International Executive, a bibliographical journal formerly published by Dr. John Fayerweather of Hastings-on-Hudson, New York. Dr. Dennis Guthery, Department of World Business, will serve as the journal's editor. Nelda Crowell, Director of Communications, will coordinate production and a committee headed by Dr. Marshall Geer, Vice President for Academic Affairs, will oversee the publication. The fIrst issue is expected to be published this spring. World Affairs Conference The sixth annual World Affairs Conference was held on November 1 at the Thunderbird Activity Center. The conference, organized entirely by students, covered a timely and complex topiC, "Transborder Data Flow: Revolutionizing World Trade~' More than 500 students and guests attended throughout the day. Alumni Association The steering committee of the Thunderbird Alumni Association met on October 11 and agreed on the Articles of Incorporation to establish the formal Alumni Association. Elected to serve as the association's executive offIcers were: Charles Stockholm '56, preSident; Daniel Witcher '50, fIrst vice preSident; Larry Mellinger '68, vice preSident; Thomas Peterson '77, vice preSident; William Johnson '60, vice president; Douglas Quelland '72, treasurer; and Wayne Pulver '70/'78, secretary and executive director. The members of the fIrst Alumni Association Board of Directors are: Jeri Towner '78, Susan Stevens '73, Roger Voegele '78, Eric Denniston '80,John Cook '79, Sherman Olson '50, Stephen Hall '69, Charles Muse '50,James Echle '72, Allen Brenteson '60, and Alfred Jankus '47. Reunion Rejoicing As this issue of the Thunderbird Magazine goes to press, the classes of 1959 and 1954 are completing the celebration of their 25-year and 30-year reunions. It has been two days of high emotion, gala activity, and lump-inyour- throat sentimentality with a whole lot of old-fashioned fun thrown in. Many alumni, of course, had family or business commitments that prevented them from partiCipating. Nevertheless, the Spring issue of the Thunderbird Magazine will feature the whereabouts of the alumni in those reunion classes and photos of the reunion activities. Joseph M. Klein '47, President ofPluessStaufer Industries, Inc. and Chairman of Thunderbird's Board of Trustees, met T'bird Tim McGuire '82, at the Great Wall of China during Klein's visit to Asia last October. Tim is teaching at the University of International Business and Economics in Beijing. Gayle Roessl Memorial Scholarship Awarded Richard Groves '85, was awarded the fIrst scholarship from the Gayle Roessl Memorial Scholarship fund. Recipients are selected by faculty members representing each department, in recognition of superior academic performance and fInancial need. The memorial scholarship fund honOring Gayle Roessl '82, a Thunderbird who died of cancer in 1982, was established by her husband Ian MCCluskey '82 and many of her friends. Inquiries about the fund should be directed to Bobbie Boyd, Coordinator of Development Services. 9 I ThunderbirdNEl'WORK Buenos Aires Tbirds have organized a monthly luncheon on the last working Friday of the month at 12 :30 p.m. at the Downtown Matias Pub, San Martin 979. No reservation is required and all visiting Tbirds are welcome. Frequently; prominent guest speakers join them to address the current situation in Argentina. Contact Patricio Seidel at 34-3862/4276 or 798-4017. Chicago Fifty-five Tbirds met for a Mexican dinner at the Dos Gringos Restaurant on September 27. Participants took the opportunity to view and discuss the Chicago Chapter's constitution and bylaws. The chapter plans to enhance their network through regular ethnic dinner meetings. First Tuesdays are held at the Midland Hotel Tickertape Lounge at 5:30 p.m. For more information, please contact Gary A. Northrup '80 at his office (312) 828-5329, or at home, (312) 663-0549. Dallas/Ft. Worth Melody Ball '79, Chapter President, organized a September dinner cruise on Lake Ray Hubbard. Participants enjoyed a barbeque buffet and live music aboard the Texas Queen, a paddlewheel steamboat. Questions about upcoming activities should be directed to Dave Trott '74, Chapter Secretary; at his home (214) 691-5857. Denver Area Tbirds met at the Gasthouse Ridgeview on September 27. Wayne Pulver '711'78, director of Alumni Relations, was in town to discuss school activities, including the formation of the official Thunderbird Alumni Association. Please contact Halina Bojarski '81 of Boulder at home (303) 442-3072 or at her office (303) 431-9400. Houston The Associated Thunderbirds of Houston continue to celebrate First Tuesdays at the Black Swan at Inn on the Park. Happy hour begins at 5:30 p.m. On October 23, they enjoyed oompah bands and beer at the Bavarian Gardens & Restaurant where they celebrated Oktoberfest. The Houston chapter has formalized the Thunderbird Network to enlarge and strengthen Tbird presence in the Houston business community. The Contacts Network facilitates the development of business relationships. The Job Referral Network assists Tbirds in locating contract work or in finding new employment. Michael Gable '81 is available for questions and comments at his home: (713) 861-7198. 10 Los Angeles Local Tbirds organized a happy hour atJirn Dale's ('73) Villanova Restaurant to honor Thunderbird faculty and administrators attending the International Education Resource Conference in September. The Southern California Chapter of the Thunderbird Alumni Association also organized a Pacific Rim Marketing Conference, held on September 26 at the New Otani Hotel. Dr. Robert Moran, Professor of International Studies, was the featured luncheon speaker and guest at a post conference reception catered by Greg Hansen '78. Those interested in learning more about chapter activities should contact President Ed Jusino '77, at his office (213) 614-5319, or home (213) 821-5440. Miami Miami Tbirds practiced using their chopsticks when they met for a Japanese dinner at the Sasaki Restaurant in Coral Gables on October 17. Paul Simon '70 and Gail Gogin '78, coordinated the event. December's First Tuesday was held atJP.s by the Bay; Coconut Grove Exhibition Center. Please contact Paul Simons '70 at his office (305) 443-4886, for information about upcoming events. New England Nearly 30 New England Tbirds and friends retired to Sugarloaf Mountain in Carrabasset, Maine, to take in the delights of fall foliage at the Five Year Anniversary party in October. Thanks to Chris Kroos '76 who arranged lodging at the mountainside resort. In December, Fred Cefalo '83 and wife, Jill, opened their home for the annual Christmas party and asked all would-be party goers to dress in green or red. Already on the docket for '85 is a Winter Weekend Getaway; tentatively scheduled for February or March. First Tuesdays are still held at Foreign Affairs, State Street, Boston, at 5:30 p.m. New York More than 150 New York alumni gathered at the Lowes Summit Hotel on September 25 to visit with President Voris; Berger Erickson, Executive Vice PreSident; Tom Bria, Director of External Affairs; Randy Schilling, Director of Corporate Relations; and Nelda Crowell, Director of Communications. New Yorkers welcomed the opportunity for a firsthand update on Thunderbird. On December 7, Tbirds and guests frolicked at the Intar Theatre. Billed as "Winter Follies Off Broadway", the affair featured an open bar, WouterVan Tiel '83 and Cathy Waterman '82 enjoy New York reception for visiting Thunderbird administrators. Said Masoud '82 (L) and Dirk deYoung '82 (R) ran into each other at the Churchill Hotel in Nicosia, Cyprus. Said was on vacation from his position as credit officer with the Commercial Bank of Dubai. Dirk, employed by the Wacker Corporation in Milwaukee, was on a business trip, visiting Cyprus Waterworks Co. dinner buffet, art gallery exhibit, and disco danCing. Manuel Bramao '79 and Rita Previtali '83 coordinated the event. Questions about future activities may be directed to Rita at her office (212) 826-0250, or at home (201) 646-0937. Oslo The Norwegian chapter of the Thunderbird Alumni Association of Europe sends their greetings to Tbird friends around the world. Jan Blichfeldt '82 wrote to tell us that they gather at "Stortorvets Gjestgiveri", the Oslo version of "The Pub~' To find out more about these gatherings, call Jan at home 121649, or office 337009. THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '84/'85 Carol Hazelett, Director of Career Services, meets T'birds at the 36th Virginia Conference on World Trade in Norfolk (left to right) Tom Wong '73, Carol Hazele~, Robert Amsler '82, Donald Cascini '83, Aubrey Walden '83, and George Hiller '72. T'birds gather in Riyadh (left to right) Cliff Foster '77, Julio de Quesada, Mette Foster (sitting), Steve Gross '80, Kadry Britain '80, Pierre Nys '71, Tony Hassiotas '77, Roger Voegele '78, guest, and Steve Linney '76. Thunderbird Rugby The Rugby Club is planning to write a newsletter every semester relaying club news. If you would like to receive the newsletter, please send your name and address to: Rugby Club Box c/oASLC Thunderbird Campus Glendale, AZ 85306 The club finished the 1983-84 season I 1-2-1. They began the current season with 4 wins. ------~--~--~~~~ Greetings from Oslo (left to right, front row) Sigurd Knutzon '81, guest, Anatha Meghanian, Velaug Bollingmo '82, Per Nicolaisen '83, Jan Blichfeldt '82, (back row) Petter Qvam '83, Helge Tryti '84, Ragnar Wollan '83, Pal Mitlid '82, Thor Harald Mj~en '69, and Knut Haukeb~ '80. Philadelphia First Tuesday meetings have moved to O'Brien's Pub, downstairs at the BellevueStratford Hotel in Philadelphia. The chapter held a reception on September 24 at the Engineers Club in honor of visiting Thunderbird administrators. On October 18, the chapter hosted Ambassador William Middendorf, U.S. Ambassador to the Organization of American States, who spoke on the current political and economic situation in Latin America. In December, Chapter President Phil Auerbach '81, hosted a Christmas party in his home serving specialties from local gourmet shops. THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '84/'85 Phoenix More than 40 Phoenix Tbirds gathered at La Fontanella for an Italian feast on September 7. joining the festivities was Eric Denniston '80, former president of the Chicago chapter, and present member of the board of directors of the newly formed Thunderbird Alumni Association. Frank Smith '78, is serving as the club's liaison between Phoenix alumni and students. First Tuesdays are held regularly at John Scott's Ore House, and visiting alumni are welcome. For more information, call the Alumni Relations office: (602) 978-7135. Portland By popular request, Portland Tbirds are meeting regularly for a First Tuesday happy hour at the Rusty Pelican Restaurant beginning at 5:30 p.m. Please contact Suelynn Weeks '83 at her office with your questions or suggestions, (503) 220-2225. San Francisco Bay Area Bay area Tbirds enjoyed Cuban cuisine at jose's in Palo Alto during their September "Roving Dinner~' October'S dinner featured Ethiopian fare at the Blue Nile in Berkeley. November saw the "Roving Dinner" crowd return to Los Altos for goulash, potato dumplings and stuffed cabbage at Eugene's. Attendance at the First Tuesday meetings has tripled in the past year, making Barnaby's downstairs low1ge Embarcadero # 1 a hot spot for bay area Tbirds. Those seeking directions should contact Maryann Soo '81 at home (415) 531-7177, or at work (408) 947-3444. Sao Paulo Sao Paulo Thunderbirds met on September 13 to reminisce about Thunderbird days and contribute to Thunderbird's International Auction. Susan Jones and Mark Abrams '76 organized the event which was attended by more than forty Tbirds and friends. Saudi Arabia Tbirds in Riyadh enjoyed a get-together at the home of Cliff Foster '77 in August. Newcomers to the area should contact Roger Voegele '78 at work for information about upcoming events: 465-5378 or 464-2068. Seattle Susan D. Arnold Guidry '77 and Gerry Esterbrook '77 organized a Thunderbird alumni reception held at the Top 0' the Pier in downtown Seattle on October 18. Questions about upcoming events should be directed to Susan at home (206) 333-6486, or at work (206) 453-4938, or to Gerry at home (206) 282-6395. Washington D.C. The Washington D.C. chapter sponsored a dinner featuring Mr. Roger Sullivan, Executive Vice President of the National Council for U.S.-China Trade, as guest speaker. The October 29 event took place at the Old Ebbitts Grill, where Mr. Sullivan spoke on "U.S.-China Commercial Relations Opportunities and Limitations~' On December 8, early Christmas cheer was abundant at the chapter's yuletide party hosted by jeremy Keller '79 and his wife Guiliann. First Tuesday gatherings continue each month at 6:30 p.m. at Old Ebbitts Grill. Information about future events can be obtained from Marcus Schaefer '82 at (703) 941-1846, or Brian Marshall (202) 293-5580 after 6:30 p.m. II I Thunderbird CONTACTS ALASKA Ernest l. Kangas DELAWARE Anita Marie Sur Ctaricoates NEW.JERSEY OHIO Donald R. Goodrich 7462 Hillsboro Ave. Dexter MacArthur Thompson 707 Circle Dr. Belmont Haydel Charles C. Horton c/o Executive Travel Services San Ramon. CA 94583 125 ElliotSI. Roselle. IL 60172 423 Lawrenceville Rd. #802 9428 Gina Dr. 1102 W. IntI. Airport Rd. (H)(415) 828-4188 Newark. DE 19713 (H) (3 12) 893-6459 Lawrenceville. NJ 08648 Pisgah. OH 45069 Anchorage. AK 99502 (0)(415) 463-0380 (H)(302)731-8356 (0)(312)732-0750 (H) (609) 695-3880 (H) (513) 777-8913 (H) (907) 344-2073 Alain J.P. Labat (0) (301) 398-3537 Jesse G. Wilson (0) (609) 896-5051 (0) (907) 562-2324 Guy D. Langvardt 2429 Lama Vista Ln. 4432 N. Richmond William O. Neumann 185 N. Main SI. #C Gary G. Miller Santa Clara. CA 95051 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA Chicago. 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NE 68601 5401 17th PI (0)(4 15) 362·7440 (H) (203) 874-4300 Michael Edward Biller (H) (402) 563-1020 NORTH CAROLINA Lubbock, TX 79417 19t 5 Old Briar Rd (0)( 402) 564-3131 Pamala Kay Hernandez (0) (203) 358-5435 Highland Park. IL 60035 Mark A. Sommer (H) (806) 793-0742 2330 SI. Joseph Ave. (0)(312) 346-5900 William S. Morris 2800 Eddystone Ln. (0) (806) 762-5221 Long Beach. CA 90815 Robert E. Johnson 4825 S. 91 st Ave. Winston-Salem. NC 27103 Elizabeth B. Burde"" (H)(213) 498-1037 PO. Box 813 Omaha. NE 68127 (0) (919) 773-5244 28 E. Whitewillow Circle (0)(2 13) 978-6616 Arlington Heights, IL 60006 The Woodlands, TX 77381 12 [(H0))((331122)) 933548-·56744694 THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '841'85 George A. Giagtzis BELGIUM Glenn E. Mallory INDIA Claude Shaneyfelt Gregory P Harrison 1123 Coachlight John C. Cook c/o Artfel Cia Ltda. Yadalam G. Dwarkanath Explanada # 1220-A c/o Camel Inc. Houston, TX 77077 6 Square Biarritz # 19 V.M. Rendon 120 Y. Panama c/o Sri Krishna Spg & Wvg Mills Lomas de Chapultepec PO. Box 7378 (H)(713) 493-9801 B-1 050 Brussels, Belgium 3Piso Subramanyapura Ciudad Mexico 11000. D.F., Mexico Jeddah, Saudi Arabia (0)(713) 462-7656 (H) (322) 640-2668 Guayaquil, Ecuador Bangalore 560 061 . India (H) 562-9668 (H) 026-719-826 Bernard J.w.H. Miedema (0) (322) 640-0005 (H) 0438-7552 (H) 4-1517 (0) 520-3394 (0) 026-729-575 PO. Box 60855 (0) 0430-4355 (0) 4-1595 R. Jon Kailey Houston, TX 77205 BERMUDA Behram R. Sethna MONACO c/o Owens-Corning Saudi (H) (713) 852-2437 Robert J. Rosser ENGLAND Karai Estate Giovanni Pollastri PO. Box 9544 (0) (713) 852-2437 Seldon Rose Gilles Paris Second Floor 17 Ave. de I' Annoncade Jeddah. Saudi Arabia David B. Tron Pitts Boy Rd. c/o Amalgamated Metal Corp. 248 Taredo Rd. Monte Carlo, Monaco (H) 685-2700 6811 Mimosa Ln. Pembroke. Bermuda Adelaide House Bombay 400 007. India (0)50-2121 (0) 653-0572 Dallas, TX 75230 (H) (809) 295-3050 London Bridge Shankar Sundaram C. 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Ogburn BRUNEI 0 -8013 Eichenau (0) 026-293307 PANAMA SWITZERLAND 6034 Osage Ave. Bruno J. Cornelio Fed. Rep_ of Germany Michael C. Pierce Bernhard G.F. Edgar Cheyenne, WY 82001 c/o Bank of America (H)(081) 417-2462 IVORY COAST PO. Box 605 Oberhasl13 (H) (307) 635-0696 Suri Building, Jalan Tutong (0) (089) 80-960 Kenneth A. Erickson Balboa, Panama Saint Niklausen (0)(307) 777-7285 PO. Box 12280 c/o African Development Bank (H) 522-557 CH-6005 Lucerne, SWitzerland Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei FRANCE 01 B.P V316 (0) 522-3299 (0) 041 -442-466 ARGENTINA (0) 26-780 Susan L. Duval Abidjan 0 I , Ivory Coast Craig W MacDonald Robert B. Ga rrison 36 Rue de la RepubliQue (H) 414-793 PARAGUAY t 2, Chemin de Muguets c/o Cigna Inti. CANADA F-92190 Meudon, France (0) 320-711 Ext. 3596 John P. Zavala CH-1234 Vessy, Switzerland Maipu 757 Ian C. McCluskey (H) 626-8638 Casilla de Correa 435 (H) 022-840-982 Buenos Aires 1006, Argentina 511 Cooper St .. #2 (0) 500-6717 JAPAN AsunCion, Paraguay (0) 022-206-222 (0) 393-7676 Onawa, ON, Canada K 1 R 5J 1 Peter J. Jucht Terence M. Esmay (H) 22 1-62 Carlos P Seidel (H)(613) 234-1604 11 Bis Rue Poniatowski Meitsu-Dailey 1-1 (0) 501-574 TAIWAN San Martin 140-Piso 18 (0)(613) 237-2570 F-78600 Maisons Lafiene, France Nishi-Shimbashi Minato-Ku John F. Brandenburg Buenos Aires 1004. Argentina Gilles J. Rancourt (H) 396-25915 Tokyo 105, Japan PHILIPPINES # 12 Lane Co. Hsin-An Rd. (H) 343-862 c/o Champion Road Machinery (0) 303-38512 (0) 034-4 18-980 Bruce/ Marcia Crumley Shih-Llin (0) 344-276 P.O. Box 340 David B. McCracken Takaaki Tanaka c/o FMC Corp. Taipei. Taiwan AUSTRALIA Goderich, ON, Canada N7 A 4C8 50 Ave. Bosquet 3-16-10-408 Shiroganedai Industrial Chemical Group (H) 028-612-072 Michael J. Schoettler (H)(519) 524-7870 F-75007 Paris, France Minato-Ku PO. Box 7080 ADC MIA (0) 025-813-314 10/145 Grand Parade (0)(519) 524-2601 (H) 556-1437 Tokyo 108. Japan Manila. Philippines Lillian L. Tung Monterey NSW 2217, Australia J. Wright Witcher (0) 334-3034 (0)8 17-5546 45H Floor 32 Robert L. Schroeder 40 Walkerton Dr. Jerome J. Petin JORDAN Alley 3 Lane 929 c/o ARMCO (Australia) Pty. Ltd. Markham, ON, Canada L3P 1 H8 63 Rue de Varenne Mohammad Anwar Abdelrahman SAUDI ARABIA Min Sheng East Road P.O. Box 2 (H)( 416) 471 -1314 F-75007 Paris, France c/o Jordan Kuwait Bank Gary E. Adams Taipei, Taiwan Sutherland NSW 2232, Australia (0)(416) 291-9101 (H) 705-4352 Head Office c/o Royal Commission for Jubail (H) 525-2517 (0) 505-1307 PO. Box 9776 UCA/A&A THAILAND (0) 521-2711 CHILE Amman, Jordan Bldg. 07-043 Thermchai Phinyawatana Max Krauss-Droguett GREECE KENYA Jubail, Saudi Arabia c/o Yipintsol Finance Ltd AUSTRIA c/o Triumph International Denis Gavanas Kiagu Kamiru (H)341 -7428 475 Sri Ayudhya Rd. Thomas J. Brennan Avenida Santa Maria 1926 c/o $anvag Assoc. GP PO. Box 67313 (0) 341 -6532 Phayathai c/o American Soybean Assoc. Santiago, Chile Int'! Mgmt Consultants Nairobi, Kenya Eugene H. Castle Bangkok 4, Thailand Gatterburggasse 18/2/3 (0)74-454 PO. Box 11022 (H) 33-7037 U.S. Army Project OHice (0) 245-340- t 2 A-1190 Wien Athens 10310, Greece Mustafa Mamujee Riyadh , Saudi Arabia James P. Rooney Austria COSTA RICA (H) 017-239-635 c/o Mamujee Bros. APO New York, NY 09038 c/o J.P Rooney & Associates (H) 31 -72 19 James Dahlstrom (0) 017-239-628 PO. Box 90600 (H) 464-6156 PO. Box 11 -1238 (0)37-4 118 c/o Super Servicico Mombasa, Kenya (0) 464-6 156 Ext. 129 Bangkok, Thailand Apartado Postal 992 GUATEMALA (0) 31-6754 Michael F. Chahine (H) 234-3031 BAHAMAS San Jose, Costa Rica Juan F. Forster Gertrude S. Muloli Kopiyo c/o Saudi American Bank (0) 251 -2323 (H)28-1417 PO. Box 180, Dhahran Airport Suzanne J. Black (0) 22-5544 c/o Guatemala Project Dev. Center PO. Box 70446 Dhahran. Saudi Arabia TUNISIA P.O. Box N 82 4 Ave. 2-45. Zone 9 Nairobi, Kenya Nassau, Bahamas James C. Stanley Guatemala City, Guatemala (H) 50-0459 Harry A. Cockrell Scott K. Johnson (H)(809) 326-4271 Apartado Postal 5181 (H) 64-616 (0) 33-6014 PO. Box 22216 Apt. 8-Zmmeuble Morjane II (0) (809) 322-8992 San Jose 1000, Costa Rica (0)64-616 Riyadh , Saudi Arabia Cite Mahrajane (H) 28-0645 LIBERIA (0) 478-4223 Tunis, Tunisia BAHRAIN (0) 29-0111 HONG KONG William P Merriam Stephen C. Gross John L. House Bill Tak-Ming Ling c/o Intrusco Corp. c/o Texaco Saudi Inc. TURKEY c/o Kuwait Asia Bank ECUADOR c/o CCAA Int'! Ltd. PO. Box 292 PO. Box 5572 Murat A. liter PO. Box 20501 Roberl C. Fraser 10th FI, OTB Bldg . Monrovia, Liberia Riyadh, Saudi Arabia Farabi Sokak No. 3/5 Manama. Bahrain c/o American Embassy-Quito 259-265 Des Voeux Rd .. C (0) 22-3477 (H) 465-8177 Cankaya (H) 23-0755 APO Miami, FL 34039 Hong Kong, Hong Kong (0) 966-1464-1992 Ankara , Turkey (0) 27-2595 (0) (202) 337-6620 (H) 524-2320 MEXICO (H) 135-737- 15 Joseph/Arlette Miller (0) 541 -2091 Craig J. Dudley Box 25029 C. Greg Wadas c/o Conery Interam .. SA de C. V. VENEZUELA Awali, Bahrain c/o Trade Media Ltd. Prado Sur 240 Suzy A. Sagy Kulcsar (H) 75-4960 PO_ Box K-1786 Col. Lomas de Chapultepec Apartado Postal 501228 Kowloon, Hong Kong Ciudad Mexico 11000, D.F., Mexico Caracas 1 050-A. Venezuela THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '841'85 (H) 531-9928 (0) 540-0642 13 Master ofIntemational Management degrees were granted to 386 students from 41 states and 43 countries during commencement ceremonies in December. Commencement DECEMBER 1984 Barry M. Goldwater, u.s. Senator from Arizona, addresses Thunderbird graduates after receiving an honorary Doctor ofIntemational Law degree from the School. Senator Goldwater has been a member of the Thunderbird Board of Trustees since 1949 and an active supporter of the School. J. Phillip Samper '61 addresses the graduating class after receiving the Distinguished Alumnus Award. As a student, he received the Barton Kyle Yount Award. He is Executive Vice President and General Manager, Photographic and Information Management Division, Eastman Kodak Company. Professors John Frankenstein, Bahia Gulick, Robert Tancer, and Dennis Guthery join the commencement procession. This was the first commencement in which members of the faculty wore academic regalia for the ceremony. Tamara Gooden received the Barton Kyle Yount Award as the student who most closely exemplifies the ideas of the School's founder. 14 THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '84/'85 I Alumni UPDATE Africa/Middle East Classes of '50 - '59 Elaine Rice '50, is in the Peace Corps in Togo working with Togolese teachers of English. She writes "tell alumni or students to feel free to visit and stay at my house~' She can be reached through Friends ofTogo, Durham, NC. Harry j. Petrequin,jr. '54, is deputy director for USAID in Rabat, Morocco. He has been with USAID since 1955. Classes of '60 - '69 Gerald H. Kangas '60, recently became assistant . general manager with National Bank of Bahrain in Manama, Bahrain. William L. Nystrom '60, is travel manager with Kassem Darwish Fakhroom & Sons in Doha, Qatar. jim Benson '62, i an agricu ltural attache with the American Embassy in Abidjan. David R. Ansell '68, is regional director, West Africa, with Citibank, N.A. in Abidjan, Ivory Coast. David M. Hunt, Ph.D. '68, is an associate professor of management at Miami University. He was recently awarded a Fulbright Professorship from the Council for International Exchange of Scholars and is teaching at the University of Nairobi in Kenya during the 1984-85 academic year. Classes of '70 - '79 Ochieng G. Mbeo '74, is the owner and director of Olago Pharmaceutical and Boutique in Nairobi. He is interested in negotiating with anyone dealing in Kenyan handicrafts. Robe rt G. Young '74, is a regional consultant with Otis Engineering Corporation in Dubai, UA.E. Arif Hafiz '75, is the general manager with Technical Trading Company, L.L.c. in Ruwi, Oman. George A. Abreu '78, is general manager of Namma Cargo Services Co. Ltd. in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. Ali Lazrak '78, is general manager with Mimar, a manufacturer of wood products in Morocco. DeanJ. Storm '78, is with the Department of State in Baghdad as second secretary of the US. interests section. Conrad Eilts '79, is vice president, Saudi Arabia/ Kuwait, with Chase Manhattan Bank, N.A., in Bahrain. Andrew Snow '79, is a deputy representative with Manufacturers Hanover in Abidjan. THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '84/'85 Classes of '80 - '84 Robert Niels Marquardt '80, is with the US. Embassy in Brazzaville, the capi tal of the Congo. Gertrude S. Muloli Kopiyo '80, is marketing manager with Computer Consultants Ltd, in Nairobi. She had a baby, Tamara Shiumila, on November 13, 1983. Ahui Amoikan '81, is a credit analyst with Chase Manhattan Bank in Abidjan. Rick Trammel '8 1, is with Lockheed Aircrati International in Taif, Saudi Arabia. Bob Lloyd Gramley '82, has been living in Saudia Arabia for 2 years. Most recently he has been with AI-Sanie Trading & Contracting Company in Riyadh. Leila E Massoud '82, is a data processor with Ford Aerospace & Communications International, Inc. in Cairo. David M. Olsen '82, is married to Diane Amir Rizk '82. He is an account executive with Baki Advertising and is heading up a new office inJeddah along with Stefan K. Hildt '81. Bosson Kassi '83, is living in Abidjan. Adel Labib '83, is sales manager with Almana Computer Services, an IBM agent in Qatar. Basil S. Holobetz '84, was transferred from Royal Forwarding Services in Long Beach, CA to Namma Cargo Services, an affiliate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. Sulaiman Mohebi '84, is living in Dubai, UA.E. ASia/Pacific Classes of '60-'69 Forrest A. Brinkerhoff'60, is manager and part owner ofRDM Scientific Equipment in New South Wales, Australia. He is also a marketing teacher at Sydney Tech. j ames D. Black '6 1, is president and general manager of Squibb Philippines in Manila. Stephen T. Myracle '62, is managing director with The American Malaysian Insurance Company in Kuala Lumpur. Robert Carlson '67, is living in Kathmandu, Nepal. Robert G. Smith '67, is resident vice president with AFIA Worldwide Insurance in Singapore. Robert "Bo" J. Keams, III '69, was recently appointed preSident-director with Manufacturers Hanover Leasing Indonesia in Jakarta. Robert W.J. Nimmo '69, is vice preSident with Citibank, N.A. in Melbourne, Australia. Classes of '70 - '79 Libby G. Ginnetti '70, is assistant vice president with American International Group in Hong Kong. John C. Howell 73 Michael j. O'Shea 73 john Muncy '70, has moved to Hong Kong from Old Greenwich, CT. Gert U. Range '71, is a director with Range Export Management in Singapore. Phillip J. Gibson '72, is vice preSident, area executive, with Alexander & Alexander International, Inc. in Singapore. Anthony McKeon '72, is vice preSident and regional representative with Marine Midland Bank, N.A. in Manila. james Rook '72, was transferred to Bangkok, Thailand with Caterpillar Australasia. jack Waggoner '72, is in product development with Otsuka Pharmaceutical Ltd. in Osaka, Japan. john C. Howell '73, is vice president of Rainier National Bank in Singapore. Ron MacDonald '73, is president and director of P.T. Gemini Greyhound LeaSing Indonesia in Jakarta. MichaelJ. O'Shea '73, is president and operator of two companies in Tokyo: MECO Languages Services Co., Ltd. and AMECO, a trading company dealing mainly in automotive and construction eqUipment. Michael E Fogarty '75, is business development manager for P.T. Richardson-Vicks Indonesia in Jakarta. David B. Terrar '75, is manager of human resources with Westinghouse International Projects Company in Manila. Todd N. Thurwachter '75, is with the U.s. Embassy in Tokyo. Itsuo jim Kawahara '76, has moved to Chiba,Japan from San Francisco. Shunkichi Kamiya '77, is the director of Kosei Aluminum Industry Company, Ltd. in Toyota,Japan. He recently opened an office in San Francisco and will be traveling to the US. a few times a year. Mary Kolehmainen '77, and Ken Lambert '77 are married and living in Australia. 15 Ken Lambert '77, and Mary Kolehmainen '77 were married in junc, 1983. They are living in North Sydney, Australia where Ken is senior account group director, and Mary is account manager with Young & Rubicam Coudrey Pty. Ltd. Williamj. Maid '77, is director, Asia, for Flying Tigers in Tokyo. Michael C. Mulcahy '77, is director, Far East, with Computerland International and has recently relocated to Sydney, Australia. Michael Brooks '78, recently moved from Tokyo back to Singapore to work as a security analyst for Fraser Vickers Research Ltd. Constance Chapman Dillon '78, had a second son, Geoffrey, on january 14, 1984 in Taipei, Taiwan. Bruce Lipe '78, has moved from Paris to Singapore where he is manager, special projects, with Behring International. Steven A. Bergkamp '79, recently sent an article from the "Times ofIndia" newspaper which reported the Tbird annual balloon race. Steven is with Manufacturers Hanover Trust Company in Bombay. Peter Ng '79, is operations manager with NCH Corporation in Taipei, Taiwan. Mark L Walker '79, is an administrative and materials supervisor with Amoco Australia Petroleum Company in Tasmania, Australia. Classes of '80 - '84 Marie Accunzo '80, was promoted to director of corporate card marketing witll American Express Company in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Gary Crist '80, is with AFIA Worldwide Insurance in Hong Kong. Laurel Haniman Finch '80, is witll American International Underwriters in Melbourne, Australia. Karen A. Henke '80, and her husband,John Hill '80, are living in Hong Kong where Karen is an assistant credit manager with Manufacturers Hanover Leasing Corp. and john is with Caterpillar Corp. Robert Kerwin '80, and Mary Satre '8\ are married and living in New Zealand. Robert is an account I director witll]. Walter Thompson and Mary is a surgical sales representative witll DDS, Ltd. Suchart Liptawat '80, is managing director of Liptawat Settakarn Co., Ltd. in Bangkok, Thailand. Mark E Noggle '80, is marketing assistant with Squibb japan Inc. in Tokyo. Thomas M. Wells '80, is manager, business development, witll First City National Bank of Houston in Singapore. He and his wife had a son, Thomasjr. last March. Hajime Noguchi '81, is an assistant manager for MallinckrodtJapan Co., Ltd. in Tokyo. Samuel Paul Noordhoff'81, is a corporate services manager with Amway Taiwan, Ltd. in Taipei. James Reinnoldt '81, is country manager for Taiwan with Northwest Orient Airlines in Taipei. Holly C. Siebert '8 1, recently started her own business, PaCific Basin Consultants, offering cross cultural consulting, training, and counseling in Osaka, japan. KurushJeffrey Homayouni '82, is a computer consu ltant trainee in the management information consulting division of Arthur Andersen & Company in Nagaoka,japan. David Snook '82, is with Bridgestone Tire Company in Tokyo. Yoichi Aida '83, is a commercial assistant, promoting U.s. exports to Asia at the American Embassy in Tokyo. Julie Ann Berard '83, is a student in Taipei, Taiwan. Sebastian Bonner '83, is general manager witll TranspaCific Mutual Ltd., a trading company in Hong Kong. He writes to a professsor, "The China course prepared me for these negotiations more tIlan any otller cour e at Thunderbird .. .! want to tIlank you:' 16 Stephen James Booth '83, has moved to jakarta, Indonesia where he is a sales executive with Eutectic Corporation. He writes tIlat his company was impressed with the Tbird connections tIlat helped him settle injakarta. Richard T. Lehman '83, is living in Hong Kong. Kenneth R. Mason '83, is manager, China trade division, for the Hong Kong Trade Fair in Hong Kong. Robert Okun '83, was transferred to Chiba, japan, where he is an assistant manager, Far East operations, of Nanometrics, Inc. Stuart Winchester '83, is with Wood Gundy Inc. in Tokyo. Elizabeth Jean Hart '84, is finance director with Xin Mei Fashion in Hong Kong. Lip Chee Lee '84, is in marketing witll Donn International Inc. in Singapore. Marvin Maddox,Jr. '84, is a research associate witll Business International Asia/PaCific Ltd. in Singapore. He writes,"a great deal of my success I attribute to tile alumni lists .. .! was overwhelmed by the generosity of the alums I met in Asia:' Europe Classes of '50-'59 James M. Davis '54, is vice president with AHA Worldwide Insurance in Brussels. Richard D. McCall '55, recently returned from Cyprus to Monterey, CA for a Russian refresher course at the Army Language School. In December, he moved to Sofia, Bulgaria as tile American defense and military attache. Mary Jean Wasson Southern '55, and Lt. Col. Kenneth R. Southern '58, are married and living in Stuttgart, West Germany where Kenneth is stationed Witll the U.S. Army. Classes of '60-'69 David E. Wilson '60, is director, Middle East, Africa & Iberia, witll American Soybean Associates in Madrid. Behrouz Pirouz '63, is the owner of Panorama, a one-hour photo laboratory in Palma de Mallorca, Spain. Robert A. Dienhart '65, is vice preSident witll Ashland Coal International, Ltd. in Saint-Cloud, France. Laurent Hallier '66, is director of marketing witll MacDona Ids France in Paris. Francesco Michelato '66, is manager, public relations, with Bastogi Finanziaria in Milano. John Girton '67, is general director of American International Underwriters with New Hampshire Insurance Company in Paris. j. Clark Hallmann '6 7, was transferred to the Zurich office of American Express International. Wayne A. Rohlfs '67, has moved from Belgium to Basingstoke, England. Pierre Boutigny '68, is general director with Euravie in Paris. John M. Cassin '69, is vice preSident of Marine Midland Bank, N.A. in London. Giovanni Croce '69, is witll AM Machine and Foundry and lives in Bordighera, Italy. Classes of '70 - '79 Levie de Leeuw '70, is with A en M de Leeuw in Amsterdam. Carlton B. Foust '70, is with]. Walter Thompson, S.A. in Barcelona. T. Marvin Hancock '70, is deputy general manager, international division, witll Bank of Credit and Commerce, International in London. W. Lynn Rowsell '70, is a manager witll Bank of America in Athens. Austin M. Seay '70, is area manager, North Sea, with Tidewater Marine Service, Inc. in Aberdeen, Scotland. He began this assignment after 6 months in Hong Kong and Canton, China. Anthony A. (Tony) Webb '70, was recently appOinted managing director of The Royal Bank of Canada (Suisse) and has moved to Geneva. Peter C. Anderson '72, is assistant manager, East and Mediterranean witll AHA Worldwide Insurance in AtIlens, Greece. Charles K. Hanson '73, has moved to Frickenhausen West Germany where he is an international sales ' representative with Pioneer American Insurance Company. Sandra Harrison '74, is an account director witll j. Walter Thompson in Rome. She is responsible for tile Ford Motor Company account in Italy. Richard L. HubbeU '74, is witll tile U.S. Embassy in Stockholm, Sweden. He writes, "For the record, there is paradise on earth and it is called Sweden:' Richard's sister Caroline Hubbell Walradt is an '83 graduate ofThunderbird. Lucien Geismar '75, is general manager with ETS Geismar in Neuilly, France. Hans Jany '75, and his wife, Ann, have a son, Alexander Michael Christopher Werner, born last September in Dallas. They are now living in Waldenbuch, West Germany. Paul Kessener '75, is regional manager, Europe/ Africa witll Bucyrus Erie in Paris. Alice Miller Dupas '75, is a management consultant with Assor in Paris. Thomas A. Pedersen '75, is a partner of AltenburgStralsunder AG in Stuttgart-Leinfelden, West Germany. Stephane Pelaprat '75, is with MCM and lives in Meudon, France. Jean Romain '75, is manager of correspondent banking, Europe, witll the Royal Bank of Canada in Paris. Paul Arvid "!Veit '75, is with tile U.S. Department of State in Berlin, West Germany. Staale Aurtande '76, is with First National Oil Products Consultants in London. Lorna M. Dailey '76, is a consultant witll InterSec Research Corporation in London. Peter J.Jucht '76, is director of marketing with AHS/Atlantic International Inc. in Cedex, France. Christopher Bergin '77, is in finance and control with International Metal Services in Paris. Robert S. Childs '77, and Lynn Kuchinski '77 were married last April in Fort worth, TX. They are living in Darmstadt, West Germany where Bob is assistant manager, central accounting with American Express International Banking Corp., and Lynn is part of the technical support team with Software, AG. Patrick Consorti '77, is financial director with Tandem Computers in Neuilly sur Seine, France. Kim Coston '77, is area director witll Prestige & Collections, a fragrance company and division of rOreal in Neuilly Sur Seine, France. Charles Del Porto '77, is vice president of Citifin in Milano. Adrian B. D'Silva '77, is a foreign currency trader with Harris Trust & Savings in London. Millar j.c. aoe) White, III '77, is director of marketing, North America, witll Tirnanog Ltd., a manufacturer of fine jewelry in Belfast, Northern Ireland. THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '84/'85 Shunkichi Kamiya 77 Karen Henke Hill 'SO Mary Satre Kerwin 'SI A.A. (Tony) Webb 70 Lorna Daily 76 Hans Destree 'SO James B. Allin 'SI Kim King 'SI THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '841'85 David L. Brothers 78, has a contract with the u.s. Army to provide workshops in training management. He is currently chief of instructors in Augsburg, West Germany. Annick Marie Cluzel Luke 78, is a financial analyst with Klybeckstrasse and lives in St. Louis, France. Chantal Duault 78, is a finan cial planning manager with Texas Instruments in Villeneuve Loubet, France. Michel EI-Daher 78, is the owner of Beirut Art Gallery and lives in Paris. Federico Laschet 78, is a sales and marketing manager with Fidia Spa in Torino, Italy .. Bert Maes 78, is a sales promotion manager with GTE ATEA N.Y, S.A. in Belgium. Charles Nunu 78, is an executive with Continental Grain Company in Rome. Mariya A. Toohey 78, is in advertising and sales promotion with Ford of Europe, Inc. in Cologne, West Germany. Kathryn Tucker 78, is branch manager of Manufacturers Hanover Bank in Rome. ArnaudJ. Wilson 78, is deputy marketing manager with Barber Blue Sea in Oslo, Norway. Robert Berte 79, is vice president of Continental Bank in Milano. Dennis D'Oria 79, was married last june and moved from California to Hofheim am Taunus, West Germany. He is area manager, Europe, with Cooper Vision Surgical. Maarten W. Fleurke 79, is living in Larnaca, Cyprus. Yves Gourmelen 79, is financial reporting manager with Gould Instruments in Chilly Mazarin, France. Francois Guerin 79, is chef de produit with SCAD, L.:Oreal in Paris. Arthur Humphrey 79, is a field representative with Pepsico International Ltd. in Athens. Mark Von Brockdorff 79, is general sales manager with KorfTrading Company, Ltd. in London. He was married in May to Amanda Vylyan. Classes of '80 - '84 Alain Cuissart de Grelle '80, is director of advertising and publiCity, Europe, for Twentieth Century Fox. He was recently transferred to London. Hans Eric N, Destree '80, was promoted to manager, market research and planning, for Monroe Europe, a division of Tenneco in Brussels, Belgium. Elisabeth Lorkens Schweiger '80, is with Air France and lives in Noisy Ie Grand, France. Eric M, Nielsen '80, is market manager, USA, for Altenburg-Stralsunder AG in Stuttgart-Leinfelden, West Germany. Giovanni Pollastri '80, is with Merrill Lynch in Monte Carlo. Gretchen Romig '80, is vice president of Continental Bank in Milano. jan Schuttert '80, is with Harnischfeger International Corporation and is on temporary assignment in Athens, Greece. Bill Stewart '80, is with the Institute National de Sciences in Lyon. Daniel Wachtel '80, is with Tennis Tro in Selestat, France. Kazuhiro Yamana '80, is an engineering representative with Mitsubishi Motors Corporation in Rotterdam. james B, Allin '81, is banking oftlcer at Continental Illinois National Bank in London. He is country manager for Oman, Qatar and the UAE. While in London, Marc Galligan '8 1 and Bruce Thomas '8 1 visited james. He writes, "It's always fun to see old friends:' Bettina Aschenberger '81, was married in August, 1983 to Christian Hirsch. She is a product manager with johnson & johnson in Salzburg. Christian Bertetto '81, is an international business analyst with Supae in Bievres, France. Gaultier Dupoizat '81, is product ma nager with johnson & johnson in Paris. Jeff Green '81, is a European sales support manager with Metra Proudfoot International, S.A. in Brussels, Belgium. Kim King '8 1, recently moved from Chicago to Paris. She is working for Leo Burnett-Position, Inc. on the Procter and Gamble account and writes, "the T'bird degree paid off!" Christian Maille '8 1, is with Ste Dupont and lives in Paris. Pierre Olmos '8 1, is abrasives product manager in the consumer division of the Norton Company in Paris. Pieraldo Pecchio '81, is in charge of marketing to Asia with Sodima (Yoplait) in Paris. Janet Strube '8 1, is an international finance consultant with FINEXCO and lives in Paris. Leo Y.J. van der Veen '81, is financial planning and analysis specialist with NCR Nederland N.V. in Amsterdam. Tom Curran '82, and Tracy Berglund '82 were married in October. They are living in Frankfurt, West Germany where Tom is with Polaroid Corporation. Marc De Garidel '82, is a cost accountant with Eli Lilly in St. Cloud, France. Andre Guinsbourg '82, is assistant product manager with Gervais-Danoue Belgium in Brussels. Pierre Eric Jallet '82, is with the civil personnel bureau with the French Army in Lyon Armee, France. Richard Kenepaske '82, is a brand manager with Procter & Gamble GmbH in Frankfurt, West Germany. Pascal Miege '82, is marketing manager with Flow Laborato ries in Paris. Robert A. Miller '82, is with the State of Illinois European Office in Brussels. Marie Modeste De Lattre '82, is resea rch fellow with International Service for National Agricultural Research in The Netherlands. Gilles Prodhomme '82, is field operations manager, Europe/ASia with Parfums & Beaute International in Paris Andrew M, Sadler '82, is a trainee with the American Express Bank in Frankfurt, West Germany. He writes, "Not knowing a soul here, I felt like a babe in the woods. Then the T'bird network slowly. began to work its way into my life .... the Mystique is well and thriving in Germany.' Antoon Santegoeds '82, has moved to The Netherlands. Gert E Soehnle '82, is living in Psorzheim, West Germany. Mary Southworth Curran '82, is a writer with Latin American Newsletters in London. janis Friedlander Svendsen '83, is marketing coordinator with Nevi Finace A.S. in Oslo. Patricia Gehrke '83, is project specia list with Altenburg-Stralsunder AG in West Germany. Roger Gehrke '83, is a market manager for Altenburg-Stralsunder AG in St uttgart-Leinfelden, West Germany. Christie Grieff'83, is a product manager for Altenburg-Stralsunder AG in Stuttgart-Lei nfelden, West Germany. Thor Henrik Hammer '83, is a marketing management trainee at L.:Oreal in Uithoorn, The Netherlands. Sveinjuliussen '83, is an account supervisor with Benton & Bowles in Oslo, Norway. Theresa Marcroft '83, is in marketing administration and research with Austria Mikrosysteme International, GmbH in Osterreich, Austria Nikos Milianitis '83, is serv ing in the military and is based in Athens. Jane Ellen Robinson '83, is living in Malabry, France where she is an auditor with Experaudit, S.A. She was married last june to jean-Philippe Mesure. 17 Josep Tarres '83, is marketing manager with Agrosoft, S.A. in Gerona, Spain. Kathryn D. Lindquist '84, is in international sales and marketing with Teenol in Paris. Curtis Orrben '84, is a flnancial administrative manager with Stoller Chemical Ltd. in Ormskirk, England. Marion Tepper '84, is assistant product manager with Altenburg-Stralsunder in West Germany. Dirk Wray '84, is a marketing representative with Vahnont Industries, Inc. in Madrid. Latin America Classes of '49 -'59 Addison M. Skaggs '49, recently retired from Pitney Bowes International and moved to Puerto Rico where he established Amsco International, a computer accessories business. Norman Maier '54, is with Cervex-Mexicana, S.A. in Mexico City. Juan Forster '55, is director of Guatemala Project Development Center in Guatemala. Richard C. Graham '58, is with the American Embassy in Guatemala. Ernst Schuckmann '59, is a purchasing manager with BASF Quimica Colombiana in Medellin, Colombia. Classes of '60 - '69 Alan H. Blank '6Z, is self-employed as a nature films producer and is living in a school bus in the Mexican wilderness at the tip of Baja California. Jose Maria Roggiano '6Z, is with Sotyl, S.A. in Buenos Aires. Philip A. Kiger '63, is managing director of B.F Goodrich Company, in Bogota. Philip was the winner of the Barton Kyle Yount Award in 1963. Thomas W. Kunkel '65, operates a I ,ZOO acre farm, Agro-Pecuaria Sao Tomas Ltda., in Sao Paulo, Brazil. He writes that "visitors are always welcome:' DennisJ. Goetz '66, is general manager of Sigma, Ltda. in Bogota, Colombia. Peter Moog '66, is managing partner of AIS, an insurance brokerage flrm in Bogota, Colombia. Donald L. Cary '67, is assistant controller for International Petroleum Colombia Ltd., a subsidiary of Exxon Corporation in Bogota, Colombia. Frederick B. Suarez '67, is with Sydney Ross Company of Colombia, a pharmaceutical company, in Bogota James E Corzine '68, is general manager of Interamerica Marketing ASSOCiates, Ltda. in Bogota, Colombia. leland W. Miles '68, is a manager of Willis F Bronkie S.A. in Cartagena, Colombia. ]. Roman Quiros '68/'69, is president of Fabrica Molinera Salvadorena, S.A. in San Salvador. Jan R. E.Jarne '69, is deputy general manager and senior representative for Libra Bank Limited in Sao Paulo, Brazil. He and his wife, Silvia, had their fust son, Marcos, last April. 18 Classes of '70 - '79 Max Jackson Dickman '70, and his wife, Neusa, now have a son, DanieUackson. Max and his family recently moved to Santiago where he is general manager with N.CH. Corporation. Alfredo Fernandez Bussy '70, is with Crocker National Bank in Buenos Aires. Oscar Emilio lopez Yusti '70, is in charge of import and export with Cerro Matoso, S.A. in Bogota. John Edwin Mein '70, is the superintendent of Cicatrade Comercio Exterior do Brasil S.A. Charles M. Weeks '70, is director of operations at Pizza Management Inc. in Caparra Heights, PRo Marcos L. Sanchez '71, is area manager for john Deere Intercontinental Ltd. in Bogota, Colombia. Richard A. Ambrose '7Z, is a manager with johnson & Higgins-Eluma in Rio de janeiro. Antonio Bowen '7Z, is an advisor with the Colombian Ministry of Defense in Bogota. Andrew B. Heimark '7Z, is financial group manager with Sperry, S.A. de C V in Mexico City. Dan P. Murphy '7Z, is with Comunicaciones Comerciales in Buenos Aires. Steven M. Workman '7Z, is general manager of johnson & Higgins-Colombia Ltda. Hugo Favareto 73, is with Estudio Favaretto in Buenos Aires. Robert L. Keating 74, has been living in Puerto Rico since graduation and is in the process of changing positions. Most recently, he has been with Qume Caribe, a subsidiary of lIT. He is interested in remaining in Latin America. Kate Mackie '74, is director of business development with Mocama, S.A., a subsidiary of Pillsbury in Venezuela. Bruce Northrup 74, is with Chemical Bank in Buenos Aires. Brian Devereaux O'Neill '74, is with Chase Manhattan Bank, N.A. in Buenos Aires. Drew L. Taylor '74, is with Esso S.A.P.A. in Buenos Aires. James Oed) Young '74, recently established South America International (SAIL), a trade management company in Brazil. Kenneth Arthur 75, has established Associated Marketing, Management & Ind., Ltd. in Trinidad, West Indies. Robert]. Burnquist 75, is married to Ellen M. Humphreys 75 and manager of international finance with ENGESA, S.A. in Sao Paulo, Brazil. Alfred C. Hamburg '75, was promoted to associate of the capital markets group of Citicorp in Sao Paulo, Brazil. Raymond O. Westbrook 75, has sold his company and plans to move to the Caribbean and write travel books for Menasha Ridge Press. Armando]. Nino Roca '77, is general manager with In-Bond Andino, duty free shops in Bogota, Colombia. Eloy A. Sardinas '77, is preSident of All iance International Group of Companies in Caracas. He recently established a new company, CI. VeA., a full service trading company. In addition, Eloy is very active in the Chamber of Commerce organizations in Venezuela. Gilberto Franquebalme '7S, is vice president with Banco Del Atlantico, S.N.C in Mexico City. Bernardo Araujo Giacometti '78, is general manager of sa les and marketing with Parker Pen do Brasil in Sao Paulo. Frederick R. Axelson '79, is with The Home Insurance Company in Nassau. John C. Corcoran 79, is manager of La Continental Cia de Seguros Generales in Cali, Colombia. Marcos R. Garay Velasco 79, is general manager with Grupo Editorial RIM, a magaZine publishing group in Mexico City. Alfonso Safi 79, is a manager with San y Cia., a textiles and architecture firm in Bogota, Colombia. Classes of '80 - '84 Jamshid Behzadi '80, has moved from Algeria to Curitiba-l'arana, Brazil. John Cameron '80, is marketing manager, Latin America, with Optical Industry & Trading Company in Willemstad, Curacao. David R. Frediani 'SO, was transferred to Mexico City as johnson and Higgins' representative with Brockman y Schuh. John Morrow '80, was transferred to Mexico City with RepublicBank. Daniel H. Cosentino '8 1, is assistant controller witl1 Dowell Schlumberger in Caracas. Enrique Rafael Zelaya '81, and Barbara Pleasance Zelaya '81 have moved to Honduras. Mary L. Adams '8Z, is corporate relationship manager with Citibank in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. Maria Ines Angel '8Z, is vice preSident of Confecciones Dakota in Medellin, Colombia. Jose Roberto Hernandez Mesa '8Z, is general sales and traffic manager with Merlano Asociados, Ltda. in Barranquilla, Colombia. leonor Vito ria Mendez 'SZ, is financial manager of Manufactura y Procesos Industriales in Bucaramanga, Colombia. Anita L. Schmitt '8Z, is senior cost analyst with Abbott Laboratories in Barceloneta, PRo Thomas W. Short '8Z, is an il5Si5tant-malug@r w ithCitibank, N.A. in Buenos Aires. Cassandra M. Appin 'S3, is living in Balboa-Ancon, Panama. Carol Becker '83, is an executive trainee with Citibank, N.A. in Sanjuan, PRo Jose l. Rodriguez-Macedo '83, is corporate legal counsel for Du Pont, S.A. de ev and a professor of law at Universidad Iberoamericana in Mexico City. Oscar D. Ruiz '83, is a branch manager for a savings and loan flrm in AsunCion, Paraguay. Oscar and his wife, Aida, had a son, Domingo Rafael Ruiz, last February. Jonahan Musgrave '84, is general manager/ Argentina with Stoller Chemical Company in Buenos Aires. North America Classes of '47 - '49 Irwin Marks '47, and his wife are actively involved in civic and cultural organizations in Boston, including the local arts council and the Whaling Museum. Spencer J. Adams '48, is general manager, international division, with Virginia Chemicals, Inc. in Portsmouth, VA. James S. Thomas '48, is assistant treasurer with lIT Corporation in New York. George W. Austin '49, is a division land consultant for Tenneco Oil Exploration and Production in Bakersfield, CA. He recently visited campus. Robert H. Cheroske '49, recently retired and is "enjoying the leisurely life" in Sunset Beach, CA. He invites any of his classmates passing through California to visit. THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '84/'85 Everard H. Lee '49, is assistant resident vice president with AFlA Worldwide Insurance in Coral Gables, FL. Richard Murison '49, attended December commencement exercises. He writes that Thunderbird "continues to perform a superior service to the international business community.' Edgar S. Prochnik '49, reports he is "building a retirement home on an arm of the Chesapeake Bay with ducks unlimited:' Classes of '50-'59 ShermanJ. Olson '50, is vice preSident, international, with Seguros La Comercial in New York. Patricia Birch Giddings '5 1, and her husband, Ed, own Ocho Cascadas resort in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico. They are developing similar projects In Australia, Fiji, and the South Pacific. They are currently living in Corona Del Mar, CA. Dick De Long '51, i the owner of Dick De Long & Associates, manufacturers representatives in Highland, CA. Dick is a retired colonel in the U.S. Air Force. . William M. Ferry '5 1, is owner/manager of Bill Ferry and Associates in Nashville, TN. He recently visited Thunderbird and commented on tlle "mushrooming campus:' Donald M. Johnson '51 , recently received the "Volunteer of the Month" award from ClGNA Corporation for his involvement with the Red Cross and was named Georgia's "Man of the Year" for his community affairs work in Macon, GA. He is currently director of processing with CIGNA. Roy L. Baughman '52, has retired from his position as executive vice president of Sterling Asia in Manila and has settled in Tahoe City, CA. Bob Tonne '52, is regional manager with Dean Foods and lives in Livermore, CA. Roy Barrett '54, is living in Salt Lake City, UT. Reuben R. Bibelheimer '54, is living in Sylmar, CA. Eugene H. Blood '54, is a salesman with Harry's Crown Tire Company in Auburn, NY. Roland D. Brice '54, is a teacher at Tlinget Indian Village High School in Valdez, AK William A. Erchick '54, is living in Middlesex, NJ. Geoffrey Goss '54, is living in Fallon, NY. Gerald L. Heck '54, is preSident of International Management Resources, a consulting firm in Yonkers, NY. Louis B. Marienthal '54, is president ofPacifk Data Systems, In c. in Culver City, CA. William E Quinn,Jr. '54, is assistant vice president, director of insurance, with Phibro-Salol11on, Inc. in New York. John Allan Rogers '54, is the owner of Hayward Travel Center in Hayward, CA. Gerald D. Winger '54, is preSident of Winger Enterprises, Inc., an investment and retailing firm in Sacramento, CA. Niek Slijk '55, is tlle executive director of the Chula Vista Chamber of Commerce in California. His son is currently a student at Thunderbird. Roy Wallace Young '55, was married tojane Kahn last june in Los Angeles. Barbara Yunker Bettison '55, is vice preSident and director of client relations with Smathers & Co., Inc. in Long Beach, CA. Don Krabbe '56, owns a franchise of Surplus Industrial Machinery in Euless, TX. Carl Meehan '56, retired last October after 27 years in Latin America, most recently in Chile. He and his wife, Caroline, have settled in Raleigh, NC. Mike Newton '56, is admissions and placement director at Bryant & Stratton Business Institute in Santa Barbara, CA. THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '84/'85 Keith K. Dixon '60 Michael Moklebust '60 John C. Hay '57, recently visited Thunderbird for tlle first time in 28 years. He writes that he is "surprised and pleased with the growth of the school" He and his wife, Barbara, are currently living in Goshen, IN. John C. Temple-Raston '57, is regional vice preSident of Newspaper Advertising, Inc. in Tiburon, CA. Myron E. Tomasi '57, is a management officer with USAID in Washington, DC. Philippe Cavanagh '58, is assistant to the president of Advanced Computer Communications in Santa Barbara, CA. J. Hans "Ham" Dethero '58, is senior vice president of BankAmerica World Trade Corporation in San Francisco. Barry Mason '58, is chairman of the board and CEO of RepublicBank in Las Colinas, TX. Harry Wait '58, is an independent consultalll to financial institutions in Lafayette, CA. Ugene Anderson '59, is international sales manager with Hayssen Manufacturing Company in Sheboygan, WI. He travels extensively in Latin America, Europe. the Far East and Australia. Paul B. Arnette '59, is sales representative with Advanced Cellular Systems in Soutllampton, PA. Robert L. Fife '59, is preSident of FOB International Inc., an import-export trading firm in Houston. Darrell S.Jones '59, visited Thunderbird recently for the first time since 1959. He is an industrial hygienist for the state of California. Samuel A. Keller '59, is a foreign service officer with the OtTice of Maritime Affairs in the Department of State in Washington DC. James H. Manley '59, is building manager with Mobil in Chicago. David A. Reider '59, is assistant secretary in the interamerican department of Guy Carpenter & Co., Inc. in Coral Gables, FL. William B. Schaub '59, is a property appraiser with Contra Costa County and lives in Walnut Creek, CA. Frederick D. Thorne '59, is personnel director with the U.S. Navy in Orlando. He has been witll the Navy for more than twenty-four years. Jack Van Bergen '59, recently became vice president of Bank of America NT. and S.A. in San Bernardino, CA after fourteen years of overseas aSSignments. Emil Zilai '59, is program coordinator with the state hospital in Big Springs, TX. Classes of '60 - '65 Charles H. Brassard '60, is preSident ofOriane/ Halston Fragrances in New York W. L.Lyons Brown,Jr. '60, is chairman and CEO of Brown-Forman, Inc., producers and importers of wines and distilled spirits, and he was featured in an article in the September issue of "Sky Magazine:' Robert L. Ciszewski '60, is with Population Services International in Washington, DC. Keith K. Dixon '60, is vice president and general manager of TRW Replacement Parts Division in Cleveland,OH. Robert D. Dutcher '60, is living in Portland, OR. Thad R. Hogan '60, is director of international manufacturing with Mary Kay Cosmetics in Dallas. Mike Moklebust '60, is associate vice president of Dean Witter Reynolds, Inc. in Omaha, NE. Burt C. Risser,Jr. '60, is vice president and manager of international trade services with Connecticut National Bank in Hartford, CT. Elwood H. Schneider,Jr. '60, is first vice president with Credit Lyonnais. He has returned to New York after several years in PariS and Chicago. Stanfield S. Taylor '60, is vice preSident, regional international office, with Sovran Bank, N.A. in Arlington, VA. George A. Benson '6 1, is living in Sun City, AZ. Steve De Latorre '61, is a senior project manager with CRS Sirrine, Inc. in Houston, TX. Karen M. Gustafson Bell '6 1, is living in jacksonville, FL. Kenneth]. Murray '61, is preSident of Realty Service Group in Van Nuys, CA. Charles A. Neustadt '61, is executive director of the Baltimore CiviC Center in Maryland. Dustin]. Allred '62, is a vice preSident in charge of business in Canada and Latin America with Tambrands, Inc. in Lake Success, NY. Barbara Eyre Gillen '62, works at Manhattan Party Package, Inc. in Greenwich Village, NY. She writes, "I've been up and down and around the world a dozen times ... but it a ll started at Thunderbird:' Hugh H. Foley '62, is with Ralston Purina Company in SI. Louis, MO. Miles D. Freitag '62, was promoted to president with Salsbury Laboratories, Inc. in Charles City, IA. Leonard]. Babineau '64, is self~employed as an accounting consultant in York, PA. Peter ].M. de Vries '64, is a partner with Ward Howell International, Inc .. an executive search firm in New York. Pierre Debbaudt '64, is vice preSident Witll Philadelphia National Bank in Philadelphia, PA. Robert B. Drynan '64, is vice preSident and executive director of California Wheat CommiSSion and is living in Woodland, CA. Patrick E. Hillary '64, is president of Hillary Corporation in Plano, TX. 19 James B. Kelly '64, is deputy assistant secretary for Africa, Near East and South Asia, with the U.S. Department of Commerce, International Trade Administration, in Washington, DC. ]. Mitch Summers '64, was named counselor of international affairs for Armco Corporation in Washington, DC. He will advise and represent top management on international developments. Mary A. Fox Plaut '65, is head librarian at a Methodist high school in El Paso, TX. E.Jeanette George '65, has been designated a certified employee benefit specialist by the International Foundation of Employee Benefit Plans and the Wharton School of the Univ. of Pennsylvania. Currently, she is manager of personnel administration for Travelers Insurance Companies in Cleveland. Darrell M. Harden '65, is vice president and manager, Latin America, with Union Bank in Los Angeles. Wayne I. Morley '65, is a negotiator with Alberta Union of Provincial Employees in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. David H. Rytand '65, is president ofTropac, Ltd ., an international marine construction and consulting firm in Bellingham, W A. On a recent trip to Australia, he ran into John Avard '65. LeifSalvesen '65, has moved to Dallas where he is a sales representative with Blue Bell International. I. Conrad Schwab '65, is with Piper Aircraft Corporation in Vero Beach, FL. George L. Simpson '65, is president of Speed ex U.S.A., Inc. in I'ort Worth, TX. Thomas]. Skoglund '65, has moved to Galloway, OH. Classes of '66 - '69 (Charles) Garry Clark '66, is inventory control manager with Aehr Test Systems in Menlo Park, CA. Vaino Hoffren '66, is owner of Scandia Realty in Big Bear Lake, CA. lie recently visited campus for the first time since 1966. ].W. (Bill) Lee '66, is senior account executive with Cargill Investor Services Inc. in Coral Gables, FL. George R. Mueller '66, is a self-employed consultant for financial institutions in Miami. Steven E. Otto '661'77, is owner of Let's Travel and Tours in Grover City, CA. Clifford Rudisill '66, is the resident host of The Village Inn in Lenox, MA. Joseph E. Thompson '66, has returned from London with Southeast Banking Corporation and settled in Miami, FL. Morton Tinkelman '66, is senior vice president with Oppenheimer & Co .. Inc. in New York. Diego Veitia '66, is chairman of International Assets Advisory Corporation in Winter Park, FL. D. Lee Cary '67, is with International Petroleum (Colombia) Ltd. and lives in Coral Gables, FL. Stephen DeOrlow '67, is a CPA in Carlsbad CA He and his wife had a son,jensen, last january. Stephen writes that "any Tbirds viSiting or living in San Diego should feel free to contact me:' Gene M. Dumas '67. is with Fred S.james & Company, Inc. in New York. Victor C. Fontaine '6 7, has returned from Geneva to Caterpillar headquarters in Peoria. Gordon A. McLean '67, is currently pursuing a teacher's certificate in bilingual education and a master's degree in Spanish at San Diego State University. John R. Svalander '67, was promoted to president of BP Chemical Americas, Inc. and has moved from Geneva to New York. Richard L. Bernhard '68, is an architect with Architect's Alliance in Camden, ME. He writes, "I keep running into Tbirds all over ... here in Maine and in England:' 20 Myron H. Carlson '68, sold his business in Brazil and is now in Shelby, NE seeking opportunities in international agriculture. James A. Graham '68, is a consultant with Arthur D. Little and lives in Belmont. CA. Thomas V. Lester '68, is vice president, marketing. with Cannon Mills Company in New York. David L Long '68, has moved to Naples, FL. Brian M. O'Connor '68, is a travel agent witl, Park Central Travel in Denver. Richard G. Olson '68, is district sales manager with Southland Corporation in Eugene, OR. Richard Quaglino, Ph.D. '68, is a psychologist for ABC Unified School District in Cerritos, CA. G. Ronald Renchard '68. is manager, exports and licensing with the Governor's Office of the State of Virginia in Richmond. William S. Simpson '68/'75, is in lease collection with Thermasol Ltd. in Sylmar, CA. Donald R. Spongberg '68, is account vice president with Paine, Webber,jackson & Curtis Inc. in Atlanta. Alain Vannetzel '68, is international manager, marketing and sales, with Autotrol Corporation in Milwaukee, WI. William A. Wagner '68, has returned to the U.S. after 18 years overseas. He is a product manager with Northrop Corporation in Hawthorne, CA. David P. Weber '68, is vice president and director of research with The Milwaukee Company, an investment firm in Milwuakee, WI. Stephen c. Amesbury '69, is living in Reno, NV where he is the owner of several businesses including a travel agency, a real estate agency, and an art gallery. Michael S. Arena '69. is corporate treasurer of Alcon Corporation and lives in Arlington, TX. John P. Barelli '69, is a business entrepreneur and consultant and lives in Shawnee Mission, KS. He is also a member of the Missouri Bar and the Kansas Bar Association. Michael M. Considine '69, is living in Sacramento, CA. Donald Ray Hedgpeth '69, is witl, the aircraft division of Northrop Corporation in Hawtl,orne, CA. William E. Lashinski '69, is the owner of Lash in ski & Phelan, a cash commodity brokerage firm in Chicago. Marshall R. Malden '69, is an export marketing manager with Penn AthletiC Products Company. He will be moving to Phoenix and writes he's "looking forward to visiting Thunderbird after more than 15 years:' Steven C. Mendell '69, is chairman of the board and chief operating officer of Xoma Corporation in San Francisco. A. Scott Parker '69, is a documentation specialist with Brosterhous Coleman, & Company in Portland, OR. Paul Peters '69, is international operations manager with Tandem Computers, Inc. in Cupertino, CA. Edward E. Sanders '69, is chief financial officer of North's Restaurants, Inc. in Medford, OR. Carlos Alberto Scheer '69, is an associate director with American Can Company and lives in Danbury, CT. Richard]. Shenk '69, is supervisor of customer services with United Airlines in San Diego, CA. Paul R. Stabler,Jr. '69, is preSident of MorganNeville International Corporation, an import/export firm in Atlanta. He recently announced the formation of a new direct marketing diviSion. Raynor E Sturgis, III '69, is vice president of Rubloff Corporate Services, a real estate consulting firm in Chicago. Carlos Valenzuela '69, is tile beauty editor of "Trends", Arizona's only fashion publication. Gary Walcott '69, is senior vice preSident of marketing for Bell Savings Association of Texas in Dallas. Class of '70 Ned P. Armentor '70, is assistant vice president with AFlA Worldwide Insurance in Dallas. James D. Cole '70, is with Chart House, Inc. in Jefferson, LA. Jim Crawford '70, is working with CTI, Corporation in Greenwich. CT. Donald Odermann '70, is a stockbroker in San jose, CA. Three years ago he formed the Latin Athletes Educational Development Fund, which supports young Latins in school as they prepare for professional baseball careers. E. Randall Olson '70, is living in Camino, CA. Kenneth E. Shetterly '70, is senior export sales coordinator with National Oats Company, Inc. in Cedar Ra pids, IA. Dwan L Shipley '70, was married last March to Nita Walrafen in Lander, WY. Dwan is a pastor of the United Methodist Church in Buffalo, WY. Peter Stilley '70, is with Union Texas Petroleum in Houston. Michael C. Sunderland '70, is sales manager with Atlas Powder International Ltd. in Miami. Jurgen Umbhau '70, is director of product and market development with the Ridge Tool Company in Elyria,OH. Luk E. Van Berckelaer '70, is a vice preSident, international department, with Johnson & Higgins in Pittsburgh, PA. George Vergara '70, is a teacher and lives in La Grange,lL. Martin S. Vogt '70, is manager of international human resources at Kentucky Fried Chicken in Louisville, KY Gary C. Walter '70. is division sales manager with john Deere Industrial Equipment Company in Moline,lL. James M. Will '70, was promoted to first vice preSident in Security Pacific National Bank's World Corporate Energy division in Los Angeles. Class of '71 John Bellavia '71, is senior consultant with Albert Frost & Associates in Coral Gables, FL. Warren B. Brainard-Smith '71, is regional director of Latin America with Allergan Pharmaceuticals in Irvine, CA. He writes, "My special thanks to tile alumni placement office for assisting me in my employment search during my transition back to the US' Terry W. Cady '71, is vice president of First National Bank of Chicago in Chicago. W.Jack Christensen '71, is president of Christensen Irrigation Co., Inc. in Irvine, CA. Thomas E. Cleveland '71, has moved to Meras Island, WA. Thomas A. Gronau '71, is an operations manager with Henwood Feed Additives and lives in Lewisberg, OH. Timothy H. Harwood '71, is senior vice president with Fleet Real Estate in Providence, RJ. Victor G. Haupt '71, is living in San Antonio, TX. Robert A. Johnson '71, is general manager, Western division, ofMG Industries in Valley Forge, PA. Bruce S. Mowery '71, is advertising and sales promotion manager with Apple Computer in Cupertino, CA. Karl Reiner '71, was promoted to director of Arab states for the U.S. Department of Commerce in Washington, DC. DonaldJames Sobery '71, is vice president of Cooper Energy Services in Pasadena, TX. William Spitler '71, is an international trade specialist with the u.s. Department of Commerce in New York. THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '84/'85 Class of '72 Clarke W. Allard '72, is an administrative officer with the State Department in Washington, DC. GeraldJ. Gerry) Arthur '72, is export manager with Gerson International Corp. in Fort Wayne, IN. Steve Badenhop '72, is with jordan Case & McGrath in New York. Madelynne L Brown '72, is an attorney with Gregory P. Turza & Associates in Chicago. Susan]. Corcoran '72, is vice president, corporate relationship manager, with Citicorp in Seattle, WA. Michael C. CuIJen '72, is sales manager with National Chemsearch in Brampton, Ontario, Canada. John S. Cullison '72, has recently transferred to San Francisco from London with Bank of America. Gregory W. Duffin '72, is vice president, marketing, WIth Servem USA Corporation and is living in San Francisco. Ted Finkel '72, has begun his own business, Ted Victor Service, a financial and business consulting firm for non-residents of the U.S. He lives in New York. Jonathan B. Holcomb '72, has recently returned to Detroit after eight years in Colombia and Venezuela. He is operations manager, South America, with American Motors Corporation. Donald W. Hurst '72, is a self-employed real estate investor living in Albuquerque, NM. George Philip Kincaid '72, is controller with Firestone Tire & Rubber in Irvine, CA. David M. Leech '72, is director of marketing with DavIs & Geck, a division of American Cyanamid and lives in Wayne, N]. Richard A. Leff'72, is district sales manager, East Asia, with FMC Corporation in Bannockburn IL David E. Logie '72, and his wife, Brenda, hav~ a' daughter, Kara Ann, born lastJuly. David is an assistant vice president and director, international operations, for Life Insurance Marketing Resea rch Association in Farmington, CT. John Luscher '72, is president of Photo Max, Inc. in Fort Worth, TX. Timothy J. Morrissey '72, is with Zurich-American Insurance Companies in New York. Joseph Petryshyn '72, is manager of fa cilities engineering with General Mills Toy Operations Group in San Diego, CA. Karen M. Roberts '72, is self-employed in in vestments in New York. Lianne Sorkin '72, is a self-employed consultant in Manhattan. Her major client is the Great Northwestern Greeting Seed Company in Portland, OR. Jonathan D. Steele '72, recently joined Syte Information Technology, Inc., a computer manufacturer, as manager of marketing communica tions. He lives in San Diego, CA. Everett B. Stevens '72, is president of Embassy Industrial Corporation in Alhambra, CA. Thomas M. Thlly '72, is manager, national account marketing, with NBI, Inc. in Boulder, CO. Robert W. Wed wick '72, is a consulting analyst, international information systems, with NCR Corporation in Dayton, OH. John Williamson '72, is president of Williamson Properties and a partner of North American Hotels a hotel development and management flrm in Phoe~ix. Class of '73 Mary Ann Brasted '73, is an advertising account supervisor with Dancer Fitzgerald Sample in San Francisco. She lives in Novato CA Stephen M. Butler '73, wor~ for 'Ca terpillarTractor in Peoria, I L. THUNDERBIRD MAGAZINE WINTER '841'85 Elizabeth A. Case '73, is vice president of First Interstate Bank of California in Los Angeles. She was recently recruiting on campus and writes that she was "impressed by both students and curriculum:' Mike Fenollosa '73, is an international banking officer with Shawmut Bank in Boston. David L Foster '73, has moved from Tokyo to Boston. Norman W. Gottlieb,Jr. '73, has moved to Durango, CO from Mexico City. Glenn Hamilton '73, is general manager with NIchols Homeshield, Inc. in Hollywood, FL. Ernest L Kangas '73, is vice president of CIA Insurance Associates in Pleasanton, CA and is on the board of directors with CIA, Inc. of NY along with John D. Willyard '73. Allyn W. Keiser '73, was appointed vice presidentwholesale division, USA, with the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce and president of the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce Trust Company in New York. James Kisela '73, is a consultant in Wynnewood, PA. David Levy '73, is media relations manager with Medtronic, Inc. in Minneapolis, MN. Gary Lumsden '73, is director of product development with Es lett Letraset in New York. Matthew McNerney '73. is vice president and management supervisor with jordan, Case & McGratll in New York. Mark M. Mischnick '73, is vice president of Societe Generale Bank in Houston. David S. Movsky '73, is regional traffic manager WIth Eastman Kodak Company in Whittier, CA. Jagdish Patel 73, is international sale manager for the Globe International Division of johnson Controls in Milwaukee. He and his wife, Pravina, had their third daughter, Nundini, last September. James M. Quigley 73, recently transferred to Oklahoma City where he is a branch business manager Witll Hewlett-Packard Company. John Rentenbach 73, is an advertising representative with Crain Communications in Detroit. Stephen Shephard 73, is with Transwestern Resources Corporation in Dallas. Wendell Sparks 73, is director of juvenile justice department with the Mesa YMCA. Richard E. Stutheit 73, is senior claims adjuster with ProgreSSive Casualty Insurance in Ta rzana, CA. John D. Willyard 73, is vice president of The Credit International Associates, Inc. of New York and on the board of directors with Ernest L Kangas 73. Steve Youmans 73, is president of Youmans International Inc. He was recently married to Frances Lynell Harris and is living in Cartersville, GA. Class of '74 Carroll Beck 74, is living in New York. Roger E Bildsten 74, is vice preSid ent of Levant Industrial Development, Inc. in St. Paul, MN. Eric Bjerke 74, and his wife, Susie, recently had a son, Nathan Alan, injamaica Plain MA Barbara (Bobbi) Brown 74, is vic~ pr~sident Witll Amherst Associates in Walnut Creek CA Richard W. Buck 74, is president a~d o~ner of Ranco, a real estate in vestment firm in Plano TX Terry I. Burton 74, is a systems analyst with th~ u.s. Coast Guard Telecommunications Office in New York. A. William Charlton '74, is vice preS ident, international banking, with Norwest Banks in Minneapolis. Anthony W. Charlton '74, has moved to Edina, MN from Miami. Steven De Lateur '74, was recently admined to the Virginia State Bar. He graduated from George Mason University School of Law in November, 1983 and was married injune, 1983 to Elena Garcia. Gary Walcott '69 james Will '70 RobertA. johnson '71 jonathan D. Steele '72 A1!yn Keiser '73 T.J Sinha '74 Barry L. Heimbigner 74, is vice president and manager of international correspondent banking at Rainier Bank in Seattle. Donald W. Kamela '74, is a partner of KC Gutenberg Fllle LIthography in Phoenix. Robert A. Lodi '74, is director of markeling with Cavazos International Company in Houston. Bruce C. Marks 74, is director of Marks Institute of Linguistics in Miami. Robert H. Marquardt '74, was promoted to commodity marketing director with Cargill, In c. in Minneapoli s. Andrew M. Merkel '74, is marketing manager with NItto USA, a division ofTos hi-Frontier USA In c in Santa Ana, CA. He writes he's "proud to be ~ Tbirci:' Bruce G. Petersen '74, is international sales manager with General Electric Company in Daytona Beach, FL. Nersi Sahba '74, is the owner of Majolie, Inc., a beauty salon in Beverly Hills, CA. Anton E. Schweitzer 74, is flnancial controller, Latin America/Caribbean, for Alcon Laboratories, Ltd. in Mineral Wells TX Maribeth E. Semb~ch Rahe '74, is a representative and adviser with Sparebanken Oslo Akershus in New York. Tapan Sinha '74, is international marketing manager for Worldwide Oilfield Machine, Inc. in Houston. He recently returned from setting up a distributorship in Europe. 21 joseph R. Terrazas,jr. '74, is vice president of real e Click tabs to swap between content that is broken into logical sections.

tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-155666572013-05-18T00:37:37.658-05:00Baseball ThinkingBaseball Thinking is a blog site dedicated to the spastic thinking of a longtime baseball fan. Thanks for stopping in and sharing your thoughts while reading his.Tommy Dee is the Red Sox catcher of the future?During the 2010 Red Sox spring training, there were open discussions regarding a contract extension for Victor Martinez. Many speculated that the catcher slash first baseman might sign an extension. When asked in February, Victor told the Boston Herald that he wants to remain in Boston. And his agent, Alan Nero of Octagon, told Gordon Edes of ESPN that even though he wants to stay, the Red Sox must pay him to stay. Martinez wants to be paid as a catcher. But do the Sox want him as a catcher? <br /><br />As a catcher, Martinez has thrown out approximately 23% of base runners, below the average of 30%. In 2008, he did catch 37% of potential base stealers, but only 22 stolen bases were attempted against him, by far the lowest. In 2010, he is beginning the year in a 1 for 12 slump. <br /><br />Defensively speaking, Martinez is not a very good catcher. The Sox feeling is that he might have one or two years left as a starting catcher and they are looking for him to become their 1B/DH. Very few teams will give a 32 year old catcher a large, multi-year contract. But Martinez wants to be paid as a catcher. Negotiations will become tense, for sure. <br /><br />The Red Sox have no potential starting catchers in their minor league system. Dusty Brown is not the answer. They gave up the rights to George Kottaras and Milwaukee quickly (in minutes) plucked him off the waiver wire. Former farmhand Kelly Shoppach was recently traded to the Tampa Bay Rays and the Sox certainly could have used his services. Shoppach for Crisp – what a trade! <br /><br />Moving forward, Martinez wants to catch and the Sox want him at first base. While negotiations will be honest, they will not be fruitful. Victor Martinez should sign with another team once his $7.7M contract expires at years’ end. Then who will the Sox sign to catch?Tommy Dee Tanguy Fired from Sports Hub!There is a God!<br /><br />A lot of times it seems like the inevitable is, well, inevitable. Sometimes the inevitable takes a lot longer than anticipated. On Friday, April 2nd, 2010, the inevitable arrived for Gary “Muffay” Tanguay. The beleaguered mid-day radio host of Tanguay and Zolak was fired from his cushy gig at the Sports Hub, Boston’s number one sports radio station (opinion, not fact). Tang Gay is now free to beat the meat with Pete “the meat” Shephard, who is also unemployed after being tanked by WEEI recently. <br /><br />Tanguay will be replaced by Andy Gresh, which is the equivalent of going from a 1972 Ford Pinto to a 2002 pickup. Sports Hub program director Mike Thomas was irked that the story was leaked by brain dead intern Courtney Fallon, whose career in the Boston sports scene is over before it started. What a tool! She was ordered to remove the Tweets within the hour. She was also told to head directly to Mass General for a complete brain scan. <br /><br />Although this can’t be verified, it is being reported that Scott Zolak, his former partner, is ecstatic that Tanguy has been replaced by his old friend Gresh. It isn’t that Zolak has refused comment; he just can’t stop laughing long enough to speak coherently. A going away party is being planned by the staff of the Sports Hub but it isn’t known if Tanguay has been invited. <br /><br />Chad Finn, a paid blogger for the Boston Globe, (who closely resembles a middle-aged lesbian I once knew), wrote that Tanguay was devastated by the fact he was fired. Really? He received this information from a second brilliant Tweet from Fallon. ( ) <br /><br />Apparently, Tanguay didn’t see this coming, but no one is surprised. Listeners tuned out months ago. His constant yells of “Jesus” and “Christ” on the air ruffled the feathers of many, including his superiors. His ignorance was clear. His character was weak. <br /><br />His lack of vision became evident during his infamous broadcasts of college football games for Comcast SportsNet. During one college football game in 2009, Tanguay reported to viewers that it was third and short. Andy Gresh, who was his analyst, corrected him and told him it was third and eight. Unbelievable! During the same game, he reported the first two point interception in football history! Historic! After a UMaine football game, he reported that the head coach of the Black Bears bled green, even though the school colors are blue and white. Moronic! And when he reported that a team was going for it on fourth down, Gresh once again corrected him and told Tanguay that the team was actually punting the football. Brilliant! My question is what took so long in getting rid of this clown? Even though he is close to fifty years old and grew up in New England, he knows absolutely nothing about New England sports. <br /><br />Best of luck, Gary, as you will need it beginning of the end of the New England PatriotsWhat happened to the legendary New England Patriots? They are a just a shell of their former selves. During their Super Bowl win of 2001, they chose to be introduced as a team. Their roster consisted of relative unknowns, players with some athletic ability but mostly intelligence. Their defense was tough and they won the close games. What has happened?<br /><br />During their dream run, they never lost two games in a row. That has changed. BB never made mistakes. Wow, has that really changed or what? Their defensive schemes were smart and difficult for the opposition to figure out. Not any more. They can’t get to the quarterback and their secondary gives up a ton of points to the worst offensive teams in the NFL. The offense had some surprises and made big plays. There is no guessing about the pats offense these days. They have become very one dimensional and there is no question who will receive the ball on offense. They were a team which got better as each month passed. Now they are the opposite, losing more games in November and December than they have for some time. They can’t win on the road, except London. They are as predictable as the tides. During the prime years, they didn’t beat themselves. They played sixty minutes of football and each player knew their job. Their secondary was outstanding. <br /><br />This is now Patriots Lite. Gone is the mystique, the swagger and the results. BB is being second guessed by everyone, as well he should be. Guys with the name Banta-Cain and Guyton are the best players on defense. That alone is scary. These guys were barely bench players recently. This is the beginning of the end.Tommy Dee ratings continue to slideTony Massarotti of the Boston Globe and The Sports Hub recently wrote an <a href="">article</a> stating that New Englander's, as well as Red Sox management, have become complacent. He also asked New England to root for the Yankees in the World Series. LOL. Why would any true New Englander root for the Yankees? In any situation? When you are done reading this, check out the comments section to his article. Anyway, I wanted to express my views as to why NESN ratings are down and if there is real complacency as far as the Red Sox go. <br /><br />NESN ratings are down for a few reasons. One, their format is very stale. Their pre-scripted pregame/postgame shows can be recited, word by word, by any Red Sox fan. They also have no real, live shows, like CNNSE. Every single word is scripted and stale. There is no off-the-cuff commentary and I find that boring. Every fan knows what will be discussed at 6:38 of any pre-game show. If Tom Caron has any skill and real historic baseball knowledge, I am not aware of it. I do know he is an excellent reader, though. <br /><br />Two, we have become complacent as a Nation. The Sox are on the wrong side of the bell curve at this point. Real fans are shut out from games due to prices, wine and cheese, pink and corporate. Just try nailing down a Sox Pax when tickets go on sale. I used to have a fair chance of getting opening day tickets 7 or 8 years ago. I had a solid chance ten years ago and longer. Now, there are fewer tickets for me due to corporate big wigs and I can never, ever get them the first day they go on sale. Our ticket chances become reduced to lotteries and eBay. A real turn-off. <br /><br />The initial attraction for the newer fans (corporate, pink, cheese, wine, and most girls) was the personality of the team. The Sox have lacked any type of specific personality over the past 2-3 years, which has reduced the initial attraction for the newbie’s, thereby reducing interest and the NESN audience. The Sox have become a team of well-behaved professionals with no visible character. NESN, a reflection and part of the Red Sox, has grown very stale. Add to the fact that the Celtics and Bruins are back playing winning sports dictates that the consumer dollar is spread out over 4 sports instead of 2. No longer is this just a Red Sox and Patriots town. If ratings are down for the Sox, then they are up for someone else.Tommy Dee night football fan kicked out of stadiumThis country is based on a solid foundation of principles. One of these principles is known as freedom of speech, where every American is allowed to express their opinion. This includes holding up signs at sporting events around the country. <br /><br />During the recent Redskins against the Eagles, a man held up a sign which simply read “<a href="">Bingo Night Football</a>”. This was in reference to new offensive coordinator Sherman Lewis, who came out of retirement to lead the Skins offense. In retirement, he was performing volunteer work, which included calling bingo numbers to senior citizens and working with Meals on Wheels. During the ESPN telecast, announcer Mike Tirico mentioned this fact. The fan remains anonymous, but he was escorted from the stadium, asked to leave for such a harmless act. <br /><br />What is wrong with this country? In no way did this fan violate any laws or violate any rules of the stadium. His sign was not offensive to anyone, except those who might have lost at bingo when Lewis was yelling out numbers. I think Skin fans should rally around this fan and support him. If every columnist and announcer in the country can make light fun of this, why can’t a fan voice his opinion if it isn’t offensive to anyone? I hope this fan comes forward and provides details of exactly what happened. The Washington Redskins also have a lot of ‘splaining to do. I smell a lawsuit in the making. Don’t you?Tommy Dee Brady is on the wrong side of thirty ...What is the big deal about turning thirty years old? I am asking because I don’t know. I have heard lots of stuff, but haven’t lived it yet. Tom Brady is over 30. Is it a big deal to him? I think so, and here is why. <br /><br />“Tom Brady sucks!”. I have actually heard that from some panicked fans. It must be true. Five games into the 2009 NFL season, he’s got 6 TD passes to go along with 2 INT’s. During 2007, he had 50 TD passes to go along with only 8 pics. His completion percentage is just below 62%, well below the 69% from 2007 but right along with his career average. He was below 60% two of the past three weeks. His QB rating is about an 86, right around his career average. So what is the big deal? <br /><br />Tom Brady is 32, in his 10th season, a very long time for any football player. He is uncharacteristically missing wide open receivers, unlike the past. He has exploded at teammates on the sidelines, unlike the past. And he is married with children, unlike the past. Tom Brady is becoming normal. <br /><br />But he is on the wrong side of thirty. This might be the best Tom Brady will ever be. Think about that. This could be the best he has to offer. And nothing more. Tom Brady is on the wrong side of thirty.Tommy Dee "Tang Gay" Tanguay is not a truck guyDear Gary “Tang Gay” Tanguay,<br /><br />I hope your having a great day. It’s almost the weekend and its football season! I do want to express my frustration, however, at your “truck guy” commercial. Gary, I am a truck guy. I live in the butt-crack, rifle-rack six-pack state of New Hampshire. Originally from Massachusetts, I was forced to purchase a truck due to the local terrain, But Gary, I am a tall, big and strong man, traits you do not possess. The truck really suits me. Based on the daily spankings you receive on-air, I am just not buying you as a truck guy. When I hear your truck commercial on the radio, credibility is that last thought that crosses my mind. You are at the bottom of the sports talk food chain here in New England. You are the little kid everybody picks on. Among the horses in the <a href="">Sports Hub</a> stable, you are the Shetland pony. <br /><br />So when I hear the radio spot announcing Tang Gay is a truck guy, I don’t buy it. Neither does <a href="">the rest of</a> New England. Perhaps you should do a commercial for Mini Cooper, Dodge Neon, VW Beetle or for the Toyota Rav4, a real chick’s ride. Ever think of doing an MG or Miata commercial? Perhaps you could do a voice-over for the Smart Car. It’s light, small, weak and picked on as well. The credibility just isn’t there for me. You sound very foolish explaining to the global community how cool you have become because you drive a truck. It’s like comparing you to John Madden. Gary, you are not a cool truck guy, regardless of what lies your family tells you. <br /><br />In light of this, have yourself a great day and best of luck with your future endeavors. <br /><br />Love,<br /><br />The sports fans of New EnglandTommy Dee Felger says "tits" on-airDuring the live broadcast Wednesday, October 21st, Mike Felger said “tits” during the Felger and Massarotti show on the <a href="">Sports Hub</a>. At first he was surprised when B Real, his producer, told him he couldn’t say that on air. When you work in the media, you must be 100% sure of all fine-able cuss words. That is part of the job. But he was genuinely surprised. So was I. <br /><br />What is wrong with "tits"? I think it goes along with ass, which is acceptable on air. Ass can be used freely (as in Tang Gays case). Tits and ass. Ebony and ivory. Peaches and cream. They go together. So why is “tits” so offensive? Do you know what I find offensive? <br /><br />Gary Tang Gay and is constant negative connotation of Christ and Jesus. He uses the Lords name in such derogatory terms, yet it is accepted (well, not fine-able). I find it much more offensive when someone casually uses the Lords name in vain than when someone says “tits” or “ass”, or both! I haven’t been to church in years, besides the occasional wedding and funeral, so it is a stretch to call me religious. I have actually written to Gary Tang Gay and asked him not to use the Lords name in vain. He’s still a meat head when it comes to the derogatory use of words. But I have to side with Felger on this one. Why is “tits” a bad word these days?Tommy Dee, a breathe of fresh sports talk air ..New England is famous for many things, but is often associated with sports and their fans. Markets have grown from our love of sports. One of those markets is talk radio. Well, we can now call it a market since there is more than one competitor.<br /><br />In mid-August, the <a href="">Sports Hub</a> was launched, taking over the old Mix 98.5 signal. Finally, in New England, there is a station without static. The Sports Hub provides listeners the opportunity to voice and reflect without interruption or annoying .wav files. The Sports Hub is an intelligent alternative to “static station”. With a full lineup of familiar talent, the Sports Hub is gaining weekly in the ratings and providing intelligent listeners with the long-desired alternative to “static station”. Many stopped listening to “static station” long ago, for many reasons (stale?) Others tried to duplicate it but quickly fell by the wayside because it was an identical product. Finally, New England, global and local fans, has the alternative to “static station”. Finally, a format that cares. Best of luck, Sports Hub.Tommy Dee wish list for Red Sox 2010 lineup ...Here is my wish list for the 2010 lineup of the Boston Red Sox. Leading off will be Tacoby Bellsbury, followed by Pedey, then VMart, Adrian Gonzales, Matt Holliday, Youkilis, Lowell, Drew and Alex Gonzalez. Lowell will be strictly the DH, with an occasional turn by Ortiz. Youkilis moves to third with Holliday in left. The Seattle Mariners land Jason Bay, forcing them to deal Felix Hernandez before he reaches free agency. They can’t afford both. The Red Sox send prospects including Buchholz, Casey Kelly and Michael Bowden. Thankfully, they send Papelbon as well. Papelbon still has market value, but his mouth (redneck bad teeth and all), along with a historically bad shoulder, paves the way for his departure from Boston. The guy is almost 30 but acts 19 years old. And he will go to the highest bidder when he is a free agent. The Sox then have some prospects left over to land Adrian Gonzalez. <br /><br />Starting pitching on Opening Day consists of Lester, Beckett, Hernandez, Wake and Matsuzaka, that is if Dice-K doesn’t show up as the same bloated pig he was this year. (Oh, oh, is 2010 the year of the pig in Japan?) Lowell splits DH 60/40 with Ortiz, but Ortiz spends most of his last year in Boston on pine. Papi is only here to honor the final year of his contract before being nudged out of the picture by Theo at seasons’ end. Bard and/or Billy Wagner fill closing void. Wagner gets his 400th save while showing Bard the ropes. <br /><br />Changes need to be made and this is a step in the right direction. This is my wish list for the 2010 season. And it is very doable!! Of course, if neither Gonzo or Holliday comes to Beantown, that might mean a late push for Chone Figgins, which would totally screw up the lineup!Tommy Dee Boston sports becoming mediocre?Is Boston becoming a mediocre sports town? I would like to hear what you have to say about this. <br /><br />The Boston Bruins could easily be 1-4. They were picked by many to be the top team in the NHL. It looks like they believe their own hype because they aren’t playing like the top team. The Patriots could easily be 2-3 or they could be 4-1. Are they just an average NFL team now? Is Tom Brady showing signs of aging? It certainly appears that way. The Sox were the second worse team in the playoffs, behind the Twins. Sure, they had 95 wins and all, but most of those wins were due to the home crowd, due to fans like me. Atlanta, Milwaukee, Florida and more had better road records and that is not a recipe for championship baseball. The Celtics are yet to be seen, but they could be the best team in Boston over the past 18 months, by far. <br /><br />Is mediocrity taking over Boston? Or are we just spoiled?Tommy Dee Warriors They Were">To the surprise of many, the Red Sox are out of the 2009 playoffs.<span style=""> </span>To others, this was expected.<span style=""> </span>I am the other. <br /> <br /></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">For the umpteenth year in a row, the Sox were the toughest to beat at home.<span style=""> </span>Whenever you win more than 50 games on your home turf, you should make the playoffs.<span style=""> </span>But remember, half the games are on the road during the regular season, and more than half are played on the road during the playoff’s, unless you’re the Yankees.<span style=""> </span>The Red Sox weren’t road warriors, they were road failures. <br /> <br /><span style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">The Sox wish they could have played as well on the road as the Marlins (44 wins).<span style=""> </span>They want to be the Brewers when it comes to road wins (40).<span style=""> </span>They would die to have the success of the road warrior Braves (46 wins).<span style=""> </span>They dreamed of Indian success (.272) when it comes to the road. <br /> <br /><span style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">How much does the Green Monster play into the numbers?<span style=""> </span>On the road, the Sox hit .257, were on base at a .340 clip and slugged just .414.<span style=""> </span>At Fenway, they went .286, .365 and slugged .498 at home.<span style=""> </span>Balls hit off the wall at Fenway became routine outs on the road. <br /> <br /><span style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">It was no surprise, to some, that the Red Sox didn’t make it out of the first round.<span style=""> </span>They were the second worse team in the playoffs, right behind the Twins.<span style=""> </span>Every team playing in October has good pitching, but only a couple have the hitting of a championship team.<span style=""> </span>The Red Sox were not one of those teams.<span style=""> </span></p> Tommy Dee week in Red Sox HistoryIn 1919, Babe Ruth intentionally missed the boat, the <em>Arapahoe</em>, <a href="">Bill Nowlin</a>)Tommy Dee week in Red Sox History – March 11th – 17th<div align="left" <em>Arapahoe.</em> He was in a contract dispute and had no plans on sailing down to Tampa for spring training. He settled a few days later and took the train down to meet his teammates. (Day by Day with the Boston Red Sox, by <a href="">Bill Nowling</a>) </div>Tommy Dee.Tommy Dee in Red Sox History – March 8th <a href="">Bill Nowlin</a>)Tommy Dee in Red Sox History – March 7thIn.Tommy Dee Day in Red Sox History – March 3rd <a href="">Bill Nowlin</a>)Tommy Dee Day in Red Sox History – March 2nd<div align="justify", <a href="">by Bill Nowlin</a>).</div>Tommy Dee in Red Sox History - March 1stWithin <a href="">Bill Nowlin</a>)Tommy Dee in Red Sox History – February 28thOn this day in 2002, Dan Duquette was removed as GM, one day after John Henry officially became owner. Former manager and GM, Mike “Pinky” Higgins, was released from jail on this day in 1968 after killing one man and injuring three others with his car. The Sox sign Joe Wood, the son of Smokey Joe Wood, in 1944. He pitched only nine innings and left baseball with a 6.52 ERA. (Day by Day with the Boston Red Sox, by <a href="">Bill Nowlin</a>`)Tommy Dee Day in Red Sox History – February 27thThis Day in Red Sox History – February 27thOn this day in 2002, wire transfers were completed at 5:02AM, making John Henry principal owner of the Red Sox. In 1966, pitcher Earl Wilson stated he was refused entrance to two Winter Haven night clubs, inciting claims of discrimination. Matt Stairs was born on this day in 1968. Man, he’s old. (Day by Day with the Red Sox, by <a href="">Bill Nowlin</a>)Tommy Dee Sox History - February 26thThis day in Red Sox history featured Jeanne Yawkey, who along with her husband Tom bought the Red Sox in 1933, passing away in 1992 at the age of 83. The Fourth District Court of Appeals threw out a lawsuit filed by Margo Adams against Wade Boggs. In 1935, the Yankees released Babe Ruth so he could sign with the Boston Braves. In 1911, it was reported that the Boston Red Sox would build a new ballpark. In 1912, Fenway Park opened. (Day by Day with the Red Sox, by Bill Nowlin)Tommy Dee

Q3 15:00: Matt Prater is about to kick off, and Jordan Shipley is deep to receive for the Bengals. Shipley returns it to the 20-yard line. Q3 14:45: Bernard Scott is chased out of bounds by Baraka Atkins, but there are two flags on the play. First, personal foul on the offense for a late hit. Second was a holding penalty on the offense, which was accepted by the Broncos for a 10-yard penalty. On first-and-20, J.T. O’Sullivan finds Shipley for a 5-yard gain before the receiver is brought down by Joe Mays. On second down, O’Sullivan sets up a screen pass to Scott, and the running back gets all the way to the Denver 39-yard line. Darcel McBath and Mays are down after the play. Q3 13:38: Both players walk off the field under their own power, flanked by trainers. On the ensuing first down, the Bengals pick up another first down on an O’Sullivan-to-Jerome Simpson connection for a 21-yard gain. Scott picks up 2 yards on first down, followed by an incomplete pass intended for Andre Caldwell. On third-and-8 at the Denver 16-yard line, O’Sullivan finds Shipley, but Johnny Williams is there for the tackle short of the first-down marker. After the 6-yard gain, Dave Rayner kicks a 27-yard field goal to give Cincinnati the league. CINCINNATI 20, DENVER 17 Q3 11:26: Matthew Willis returns the kickoff to the 22-yard line, and Brady Quinn jogs back to the huddle at quarterback. Of the starters, only Zane Beadles and J.D. Walton remain in the game. The rest of the first-teamers appear to be done for the day. *INJURY UPDATE* McBath has an arm injury and is questionable to return to the game. Mays has a groin injury and is probable to return. Q3 9:45: After a Bruce Hall run for no gain, Quinn connects with Willis for a 30-yard pickup down the middle of the field to the Cincinnati 48-yard line. After a Hall run for a loss of 3, Quinn looks deep once again, this time to Patrick Carter, but the receiver can’t quite haul it in and it falls off his fingertips. On third down, Quinn is sacked to bring out Colquitt for a punt. The Broncos are called for delay of game, giving Colquitt a little more room to work with. He gets the punt off on fourth-and-23, where Shipley fields it inside the 20. The rookie gets out to about the 37-yard line. It was a 44-yard punt and a 21-yard return. Q3 8:41: The defense is on the field, and Tim Tebow is warming up on the sideline. On first down, James Johnson picks up a yard. On second down, O’Sullivan is sacked by Jammie Kirlew to bring up third-and-13. On the next play, O’Sullivan finds Johnson again, but Alphonso Smith takes down the back after a gain of 6. Kevin Huber is back to punt, with Perrish Cox deep to receive. The rookie muffs the punt and there’s a scrum to see who recovered it — it’s Cincinnati’s ball. Q3 6:40: The Bengals will take over at the Denver 12-yard line, but Cox is down after the play. Q3 6:39: After Cox walked off the field flanked by two trainers, O’Sullivan and the Bengals get their drive going again. With no one open downfield, the quarterback takes off before being taken down by Baraka Atkins. It was a gain of 3 yards. On second down, James Johnson is swallowed up after a gain of 2, bringing up third-and-5. On the ensuing play, O’Sullivan is sacked by a diving Atkins for a loss of 6. Dave Rayner is in for a field goal attempt, which is nearly blocked by Tony Carter. The kicker gets it off, however, and drives home the 31-yarder to extend the Cincinnati lead to six. CINCINNATI 23, DENVER 17 **INJURY UPDATE** Cox’s injury is just cramping, and is probable to return. Q3 4:39: After a 28-yard kickoff return by Cassius Vaughn, boos rain down from the crowd as Tim Tebow marches onto the field for his first play as a Bronco. He fakes a handoff before rolling to his right and finding Marquez Branson for a pickup of 5 yards. On second down, he hands off to Bruce Hall for no gain, bringing a large reaction from Bengals defender Michael Johnson. On third down, Tebow lines up in the shotgun. He drops back and fires deep to Willis, who has beaten his man. The receiver has the pass in his hands and drops it, bringing up fourth down. Q3 2:59: Colquitt booms a 52-yard punt, which is downed at the 8-yard line, where the Cincinnati offense takes over. On first down, O’Sullivan fakes a handoff before finding Jerome Simpson for an 18-yard gain. The next play brings a run by Johnson for a gain of 4. Johnson takes another handoff on the next play, picking up 15 yards. Q3 1:15: After an incompletion, it’s second-and-10, and O’Sullivan hands off to Johnson yet again. The back picks up a first down before being tackled by David Bruton. It’s now first-and-10 for Cincinnati at the Denver 43-yard line. After an incompletion on the following play, O’Sullivan appears to fumble the ball on a sack — but the ruling on the field is that it was an incomplete pass, bringing up third-and-10. The third-down play has O’Sullivan in the shotgun. The quarterback drops back and fires toward Daniel Coats, and the tight end hauls it in for a 16-yard gain, bringing the third quarter to a close. Q4 15:00: A new Bengals quarterback has entered the game — Jordan Palmer, Carson’s younger brother. He hands off to Johnson for no gain, and on second down lofts a pass deep toward Simpson that flies out of bounds incomplete — but Tony Carter is called for pass interference, giving Cincinnati a first down at the 4-yard line. Q4 13:32: A 3-yard run by Johnson to the 1-yard line is followed by a run for no gain — the back was tackled by Ben Garland — bringing up third-and-1 at the 1. On the next play, Johnson is drilled in the air short of the goal line, but one ref runs in late with a touchdown call. Rayner’s extra point is good, and the Bengals now lead 30-17. CINCINNATI 30, DENVER 17 Q4 12:47: Cassius Vaughn is back to receive the kickoff for the Broncos. The rookie steps out of bounds at the 26-yard line after fielding it 2-yards deep in his end zone. Tebow is back in at quarterback. On first down, he hands off to Hall, who is brought down for a loss of a yard. Second down brings a pass from Tebow under pressure — a quick dump off to Britt Davis for a gain of 7. The attendance has been announced as 51,278 fans, by the way. On third down, Tebow is in the shotgun. The rookie drops back and fires toward Willis, who can’t haul it in. Colquitt is back in to punt, and he kicks it to about the 18-yard line. The Bengals have another productive punt return, as Quan Cosby gets out to the Denver 39-yard line after the 50-yard punt — it was a 43-yard return. Q4 10:32: After a 5-yard completion, Jordan Palmer drops back and hands off to Johnson. The running back picks up 2 yards, bringing up third-and-3. On third down, Palmer drops back into the shotgun. He takes the snap and takes off when no one is open downfield, running for the first down himself. Q4 8:57: Perrish Cox is in on the tackle on first down — a run for no gain. On second down, Palmer’s pass is tipped and falls incomplete. Third-and-10 brings a bootleg from Palmer after no one is open downfield. He sprints toward the sideline and leaps to dive up and over Alphonso Smith for a first down before giving the cornerback a tap on the helmet. Q4 7:05: Chris Baker was shaken up on a run by Cedric Peerman for no gain, but he is walking off the field under his own power. Second down brings another run by Peerman for a gain of 6 to the Denver 11-yard line, setting up third-and-4. The following play is another run, but Jeff Stehle and Ben Garland are there for the stop short of the first down marker. On fourth down, Rayner is in for another field goal attempt. The 26-yarder is good, extending the Cincinnati lead. CINCINNATI 33, DENVER 17 Q4 5:35: Vaughn is back deep to field the kickoff. He gets it out to the 16-yard line, where Tebow and the offense take over. On first down, Tebow is nearly sacked but he gets the pass off — it falls incomplete. On second down, Tebow drops back and gets a pass off to Hall for a gain of 6. That makes it third-and-4 at the 22-yard line. On the next play, Tebow lines up in the shotgun. The rookie fires to Alric Arnett’s back shoulder, and the fellow first-year player adjusts to make the catch for a 21-yard gain. Q4 4:28: Hall picks up a yard on first down, and Tebow drops back on second down before rolling to his right and being taken down for a loss of two. On third-and-11, Tebow lines up in the shotgun and doesn’t see a blitzer, who hits him and forces a fumble. The Bengals pick it up and run it in for a touchdown — but Head Coach Josh McDaniels and the Broncos are challenging the call on the field of a fumble. Q4 3:37: The refs rule that his arms was going forward, reversing the call and deeming it an incomplete pass. On fourth down, the offense remains on the field, but J.D. Walton seemed to think Tebow was under center when he was in the shotgun. The snap never gets to Tebow, who is forced to dive forward to pick it up and run for a handful of yards before being tackled for a turnover on downs. Q4 2:00: The clock runs down to the two-minute warning after three Bengals running plays that has moved Cincinnati to the Denver 24-yard line — second-and-1. Q4 1:59: The Bengals are called for a false start, making it second-and-6. Jammie Kirlew is there for the stop on the next play, bringing up third-and-3 after a run by Johnson. As the clock continues to wind down, Johnnie Williams sprints into the backfield to put an end to a fullback carry for a loss of 2 on third down, making it fourth-and-5. The Broncos call a timeout. The Bengals elect to go for it on fourth down, firing a pass toward tight end Chase Coffman inside the 10-yard line, but it falls incomplete, and Denver will take over on downs. Q4 1:09: Tebow is back in under center at his own 27-yard line. On first down, he lofts a screen pass to Hall, who is taken down hard at the 44-yard line. On the following play, he dumps off a pass to Hall who picks up 9 yards before the Broncos call their second timeout of the half. Q4 0:40: Tebow finds Branson for a first down as the clock continues to run. On the next play, he rolls to his right and fires deep to Britt Davis, who hauls in the pass and runs out of bounds at the Cincinnati 7-yard line. It’s a 33-yard connection. On the next play — with 12 seconds remaining — Tebow is in the shotgun. He buys time, rolls to his right and fires to Branson in the end zone — but refs rule that the tight end trapped the ball and the pass was incomplete. The booth decides to review the play, however. Q4 0:03: The ruling on the field is confirmed, and the Broncos are left with one last play — second-and-goal — from the 7-yard line. Tebow is in the shotgun with Ball to his left. The rookie drops back before taking off and powering his way past two defenders into the end zone — one of which stays down after the play. Cincinnati is charged a timeout for the injury. Matt Prater kicks the extra point as time expires to give the Broncos 24 points in the game — a 33-24 loss to Cincinnati in Denver’s first preseason game of 2010. It was Cincinnati’s second preseason game. The Broncos will be back in action this Saturday at INVESCO Field at Mile High against the Detroit Lions. Look for more coverage from tonight’s game on DenverBroncos.com in the coming hours. CINCINNATI 33, DENVER 24 -Gray Caldwell, DenverBroncos.com Tags: 2010, Cincinnati Bengals, First Half Live Blog In order for anyone to play Saturday, I would think that they would have to be participating in this week practices, tomorrow through Thursday, if not I don’t see why McD would play them. So my guess is at least we’ll know by Thursday if those guys will play or not. For all the Westbrook fans out here, he just signed with the 49ers. And the Saints signed the one who just turned us down last week, Ladell Betts. We don’t those guys. We have all pro running back lance ball. :/ *need Bruce Hall is my favorite, last night, 5 runs, minus 3 yards, long 1 yard, but the guy caught a bunch, LOL. I think the passes to Bruce Hall are the only ones Quinn could complete, haha. bay – that was my response to the guys re: Hillis but you know how they can be… don’t want to hear any b.s. excuses. (In their minds anyway). At any rate, we now know it’s just a matter of time for Tebow to climb the depth chart to #2. He’s only going to get better. Won’t go there about Quinn, but maybe he’ll have a better outing next game. Orton sure looked great though…no doubt! It was clear on the 2nd TD that he audibled at the line of scrimmage on a called running play! Way to go KO! So I am guessing we practice tomorrow?? I really hope Deck and Thomas are out there or at least them play in our next game vs Detroit!! I love me some Broncos Country!! Here is your answer: Today,. I hear you rbf1, enjoy your first game of the season at Invesco, with at least 9 to follow, football life must be rough for you, LOL. No need to put any stock in the pre-season games. Only thing to pay attention to is how our first team plays against the opponnets first team, and even that doesn’t carry much weight. The coaches aren’t going to show anyone to much out of the play book. Really it is just a chance for the staff to weed out the weeklings, grt the rookies into some game type atmospheres and experience, and get out all the jitters. Now go kick some first team Detriot but. Javis Best should be a good test for our first team D line and LB’s Go Broncos keep in mind folks that McD did state in a press conference before the cincy game that the team was going to work on the things they needed to work on and not worry about the score. evaluating talent and getting to practice against another team is the main focus of preseason. so i dont see anything to worry about! ask me again after 4 weeks of regular season play! Go Broncos “THE BATTLE IS WON IN THE TRENCHES” What’s up my Broncos family? This is a non football question. Does anyone know where I can find the Denver Broncos silicone wristband bracelet? They are like the Lance Armstrong “Live Strong” bracelet excpet says Denver Broncos and are Orange, Blue, and Orange/Blue. I’ve been trying to find these things for the longest of time. I saw a Dolphin fan with some on a few days ago and the chump wouldn’t tell me where he got his from. posting to read I got a question…. How come in all the articles I read about Tim Tebow they are refering to the over turned call of him fumbling and losing the ball as a fumble still? Is it they are trying to highlight something bad that he had done? I relize the guys throwing motion looks exactly the same as it did in college, but if it works…… Don’t fix it. Right? His release could be a little sharper and quicker…. But it hasn’t hurt him yet. I don’t think he is ready to start and yes I am a believer in Titanium Tim, but realisticly we are talking at least next season b4 he starts. Orton looks great and I will stand behind him this year! I believe his numbers can rival Romo…. I hate that guy!!! Well hate is a strong word and I am sure it has more to do with the fact that he is a Cowboy than anything. Romo is a choke artist, hopefully Orton can be better than him, he has a more professional approach to the game and I’ll take that over Hollywood Romo. As for Tebow’s throwing motion I go back to Elway who said the coaching staff is making too big a deal of it, that with the strength and speed that he throws at, that delivery of his is fine. I mention Elway because if I say it it might sound like crap to many, but when Elway talks people should listen, Tebow should throw however he is comfortable is my opinion, but McD so far hasn’t listened. Young man, a lot stubborn and hasn’t learned quite yet that his way is not the only way, he should take advice from Elway on this one. Still can’t believe people are saying that Orton looked great….i saw again the same QB that cannot get the ball down the field, who is inaccurate, and relies on his receivers to make him look good. I saw a first team offense that underwhelmed against non gameplanned defense. I saw us get lucky to end up with 14 because the call on Hall was borderline at best. I saw Tebow, playing against guys that will be playing in the UFL. Also saw a defense, give up yardage like crazy and not even come close to pressuring Palmer. Maybe my tv is messed up…LOL, someone prove me wrong Many experts such as Shanahan have said that the problem with changing someone’s delivery is that when in a tough position the QB will most likely reverse to his old motion, going by instint using his natural motion, so why in the heck would you mess his throwing motion to start with, just confusion is all it can bring to Tebow is the way I see it. Let the man worry about the field as he says himself, not his throwing motion. thanks bay.. we’ll do our best to enjoy and support our Denver Broncos!! And to the question why would articles keep bringing up the point of the Tebow fumble that wasn’t, most of the experts have said Tebow couldn’t make it in the NFL as a QB, they obviously are going to hold on to whatever they can get, just pushing back the inevitable fact that they will all be fools in the end. I think from a football perspective, one of the things youteach is that you don’t put the ball on the ground. That is why they are calling it a “fumble” because that is what he did. The timing of the fumble is what got it overturned, but the fact that he did fumble is not to be diminished. It is just like when someone runs for a touchdown, but it is brought back, no the touchdown does not stand, but he did run for it. I don’t think it is an attack by the media. Ok… Was just strang when it is ruled incomplete that it is called a fumble by everyone… On another note… Tebow had the best QB rating out of all the rookies…. Don’t know if Bradford started or was a back up in his first outing, but either way, it sounds as if Tebow had a fine first outing and showed his determination to win a football game with his last effort in the redzone! granted just a preseason game, but could not help but notice a lack of receiver talent, but then again KO has no long ball so maybe it will not be an issue. I liked what I saw in Tebow, his first NFL (even though it was preseason) game, certainly looked better than Quinn, and I liked the way he just muscled the ball down field looking much like big ben, the lefty thing was weird to watch but I can see how that can develop into a real asset, specially with someone his size, it’s going to be fun to watch. With the Lions coming up this week I don’t expect much but I do hope to see the team solidify as we get closer to the regular season. GO BRONCOS Haha, a lack of receiver talent tends to happen when you trade away one of the best guys in the NFL and then lose your top two WR picks in the draft to injury. Did Royal ever play? I missed the first half. As far as Tebow’s throwing motion goes, I can see the “if it isn’t broke don’t fix it” argument, but it really does need to be a bit quicker. There were two plays that could have been made had Tebow managed to get the ball out just half a second faster. Royal, 1 catch, 1 TD.

Many pastors and other concerned Baptists have contacted me to express their displeasure over this action. Several have suggested that, in the interest of unity and fairness, the Executive Director should mail out material that presents the other side of the issues that Dr. Vines addresses. As the pastor of a cooperating Florida Baptist Convention church, I certainly agree with that suggestion. But as one who has witnessed this kind of misrepresentation from denominational leaders over the last 25 years, I am under no delusions that this will happen. While no cooperative program money was spent to send out Dr. Vines' sermons, Dr. Sullivan reportedly was able to finance the mailing with the help of Eddie McClelland, President of Florida Baptist Financial Services. According to the article linked above, Mr. McClelland said that he was asked to raise money for this project. Dr. Sullivan, he said, asked him for a gift. He was unaware of the exact nature of the project. According to the article, he said, "I did not know it was political. Our agency doesn't get involved in politics. We serve all Florida Baptists." I have been in contact with several Florida Baptist pastors (as well as many Southern Baptist pastors outside the state of Florida) who are very disappointed that those CDs were mailed from our state offices. A similar gaffe was made last year by the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention. Their Executive Director apologized once he realized how inappropriate that action was. At the suggestion of my brother, Bill, I have made a special arrangement with the producers of the Amazing Grace DVD to secure and distribute copies of this tool to the very pastors who received the "Baptist Battles" CDs. Subtitled, "The History and Theology of Calvinism," this two-disk DVD presentation contains more than 4 hours of professionally produced interviews, quotes and explanations of the issues surrounding the doctrines of grace. Among those interviewed are Dr. Tom Nettles, the most prominent historical theologian among Southern Baptists today. Also, Pastors Walt Chantry, Walter Bowie and yours truly contribute to the DVD. For a sample clip, go here. It will only cost $20,000 to get a copy of this powerful presentation into the hands of every Southern Baptist pastor in Florida. A special fund has been established by Founders Ministries for this very purpose. Let me encourage you to contribute to this project, as you are able and are led by the Lord, to help give Florida Baptist pastors the other side of the story--the side that was seriously caricatured by Dr. Vines' sermon. You can send your tax exempt contributions to: Founders Ministries PO Box 150931 Cape Coral, Florida 33915 ATTN: Florida Baptist Truth Project PO Box 150931 Cape Coral, Florida 33915 ATTN: Florida Baptist Truth Project You may also contribute online by using the button below. Riverbend Church of Ormond Beach, Florida, under the leadership of Dr. Roy Hargrave, has offered to match up to $5000 that is given by July 8. That means that your gift can be doubled if you give in the next two weeks. In addition to supporting this effort by giving, I am asking that over the next several weeks you commit to fast and pray that the Lord will use this project to renew and rekindle a deep love for His Word and the Gospel of Jesus Christ not only in the churches of Florida but beyond them throughout the whole Southern Baptist Convention. Specifically, from June 24 through July 31, pray that those who receive this DVD would honestly watch it and open their hearts and minds to the truths from God's Word that it presents. Please encourage or lead your church to join in this prayer effort, as well. Let me reiterate the purpose of this effort. The historic Southern Baptist understanding of salvation was blatantly misrepresented in the sermon sent out to Florida Baptist churches by our state Execuive Director. A growing number of pastors and churches in Florida believe the Bible teaches exactly that historic perspective. Thus, we and our churches were severely and widely misrepresented and the truth that we proclaim was caricatured to our fellow pastors and sister churches by our own state convention leadership. In an attempt to right this wrong, we are asking for all who love the doctrines of God's sovereign grace and are weary of seeing them distorted beyond recognition by Southern Baptist leaders to join with us in making the Amazing Grace DVD available to Florida Baptist pastors and churches. We have no interest in division or in being contentious. We do have an interest in truth. We believe what we believe because we think the Bible teaches it. We understand that not everyone shares our convictions. But we desire of ourselves and ask of others, not to misrepresent the views of their brothers and sisters with whom they disagree on these vitally important issues. For the cause of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, please pray that His truth will prevail and that we will all be humbled before it. 89 comments: Excellent idea! I'm glad someone is thinking. Tom, it was good to see you in San Antonio. Tom, I have recently written a check for a couple thousand dollars to pay for a new motor in my car, so, unfortunately, I cannot contribute financially right now, but I will pray fervently for this. I have also passed it on to the elders of my church. Also, I wanted to let you know that I have not forgotten that project-response from earlier this year. Some protracted health issues have gotten in the way, and it took me a long while to complete my additional reading, which only confirmed the original thesis anyway, but I wanted to do some "text criticism" too, but I believe these issues are close to being resolved. I've completed it and will get it to you after the Founders Conference so you can review it closely. I want you to concentrate on your obligations for the month and not worry about this. Also, since I live in NC, if you and Dr. Akin's folks would like to put together some collated material for an info packet on regenerate church membership/integrity in ch. membership, I'd be willing to man a table and distribute the material @ Ridgecrest. I can even go to SEBTS to help get it together if you want. My email has also changed. Just click on my profile here and you can reach me @ my new email. Blessings, Gene So, if we happen to live in Louisiana, how may we obtain a copy? Dr. Tom: I think this is an excellent idea. Indeed, I do pray that God would move in the hearts of Florida pastors to watch the DVDs and see how biblical the Doctrines truly are. The added part about evangelism is excellent too and I think would go far (God willing) to recover a more God-centered approach to soul winning. May God be glorified in His truth! SDG, dbh Tom, I'm glad to support this effort to proclaim & reclaim the the historical & scriptural foundation on which Southern Baptists stand. Perhaps God will grant us the reformation & revival we so desparately need in our day. Brother Tom, You said, "A similar gaffe was made last year by the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention. Their Executive Director apologized once he realized how inappropriate that action was." Why would anybody in the position of 'Executive Director' of the SBTC...NOT understand how innapropriate that action was. I do not buy that. The damage was done. He would not give equal time to the truly representative portrayal of the D.O.G.(Calvinism). Thus, his 'apology' has a hollow ring to it, and to some degree...one must question the integrity of the man. Don Cass never apologized. That would have meant more to me than Jim Richards stock response (damage control) after the damage was done. I will be praying for you guys in Florida concerning this situation, as I know what it felt like here in Texas last year. Similar to Brother Gene, the money is tight, but I feel like I must supply at least a few of those DVDs to the cause. Please accept my "widows mite", and know that I appreciate men like you, Bill, Roy, etc. who will stand in the face of this. This is an awsome idea!!! For those outside of FL., the makers of the Amazing Grace DVD have the video on sale for 1/2 price ($14.99 until the end of the month: Soli Deo Gloria! Tom, have you requested any financial assistance from your state convention to assist in offsetting the cost? it seems like a fair request to me given the circumstances. can you request an equal amount of funds used to ship the Vines message from wherever that funding came from? being denied such equal funding would be a note worth making, on this blog and others. but let's assume the best of them first...why not request assistance from them to make this happen? Dear Dr. Ascol, I find this post most interesting. Especially your statement struck me: "...no cooperative program money was spent to send out Dr. Vines' sermons..." Are you sure? Did you verify it? Like for example, the verification Timmy Brister assured us in his post "Connellism Versus Calvinism: You Be the Judge." He writes as recommended by you: “Well, Tom Ascol has just verified that Dr. John Sullivan, Executive Director of the Florida Baptist Convention, has indeed mailed Dr. Vines’ messages to every pastor in the state convention - paid for with what? Yes, God’s money! Talk about cooperation!" Further though, Dr. Ascol, you wrote on that same post "Little did I know. Not only has the denominational leadership of my own state convention given Dr. Vines a pass on this sermon, *they have used God's money* to send it to every Southern Baptist in the state!" And, I fear there's more. In the comment thread, you morally indicted Dr. Sullivan: “As I told a reporter today, it is immoral to ask churches to support with their finances activities that blatantly attack what those churches believe and teach.” Now, however, you simply state "...no cooperative program money was spent to send out Dr. Vines' sermons..." I am wondering, given the severity of the indictment offered here and elsewhere pertaining to the misuse of CP monies by Dr. John Sullivan if an official apology will be offered. Is it not appropriate? Would it not be expected if Founders were wrongly accused of misusing funds? Grace today, Dr. Ascol. With that, I am... Peter Your PayPal donation link isn't properly constructed. It doesn't get me to the right place to send a donation by this means. Can you perhaps fix this or simply disclose the email address that is accepting the donations via PayPal? It's good to see that there are still guardians in the church. I would assist in this financially, but PayPal is incapable of taking my money. Thanks for all the encouraging comments. Please pray for this effort. Irreverend: I did actually think about asking the Florida Foundation for assistance, but decided against it. It's not a bad idea, though. Dr. Lumpkins: I am surprised to learn that you think that the only money that qualifies as "God's money" is that which is given through the cooperative program! This must be your position or else you would not have reasoned the way that you do. Dr. Lumpkins, you and I must simply agree to disagree on this point. Let me quickly add that, if I believed as you do--that the only money that belongs to God is CP money--then I would accept your call for an apology as the appropriate thing to do. But, since I do *not* believe that the CP constitutes the sum and substance of all the money that God owns, no apology will be forthcoming for my statement that the state office used "God's money" to send out Dr. Vines' sermons. May you have a grace filled day, Dr. Lumpkins! When a set of CD's is sent out with letterhead from the Florida Baptist Convention with an official letter from the primary executive of the State Convention on that letterhead, promoting, I might add, what has been proposed in said CD's, that involves resources from the Florida Baptist Convention. If on the other hand, the official letterheads can be bought and paid for by an external entity and sent out to Florida Baptist pastors as an official correspondence from the primary executive in the state, then we have a serious problem which is much more severe in nature than was previously thought. And who is Eddie McClelland, President of Florida Baptist Financial Service? Isn't he to be held accountable to Florida Baptist to some extent, seeing that he is the primary CEO of a "trust" agency of the convention? And if, in fact, Dr. Sullivan was not forthright with him about the content of what he was supporting, doesn't Dr. Sullivan owe him an apology? I'm certain that Lumpkin has already made that demand of Dr. Sullivan. And I wonder if Dr. Sullivan asked his secretary (paid for by FBC) to write the official letter encouraging pastors to listen to Vine's sermons. Or did Dr. Sullivan, who's salary is paid for by the FBC, carry all of this out during his time off. What a convoluted argument to suggest that Founders in the FBC owe these men an apology. Sounds like the Democratic parties tactics. That would be akin to my church sending your church a letter opposing your views with Riverbend's official letterhead and asking you to apologiize for blasting us due to the fact that we got a guy off the street to pay for the contents. The point is, if you don't want entities to be accused of the obvious, STOP using our letterhead to promote division! And STOP allowing money given by other entities to utilize our letterhead in promoting division. Oh, I forgot to add, were the copiers used for the mailout paid for by Dr. McClelland's money? Were those in charge of the packaging for the mailout paid for by external money? Was the time of all FBC employees who were utilized for this mailout paid for by external money? Dr. Ascol, Gee, Dr. Ascol, I did not so much as pen one syllable as to my own view of stewardship. Rather I simply quoted your own words back to you. You wrote: "...no cooperative program money was spent to send out Dr. Vines' sermons..." If this is so, then I am unsure what you mean in your little rejoinder to me: "if I believed as you do--that the only money that belongs to God is CP money--then I would accept your call for an apology." Of course, I do not believe that the only money God owns is CP money. I think with you He owns it all. But that isn't what we're talking about here. You wrote: "...no cooperative program money was spent to send out Dr. Vines' sermons..." O.K., if that's so, I am afraid the moral challenge is still before you. Grace, Dr. Ascol. With that, I am... Peter Dr. Lumpkins: Wow. I hold you accountable for your words and logic and you confuse the issue by bringing up the topic of stewardship. I am certainly glad to know that don't believe that God's money is limited to the CP. Given that, why do you still think I should apologize. Perhaps you are operating on the basis of some canons of logic to which I am not privy. It seems rather simple to me: Tom: God's money was used. Tom: No CP money was used. Dr. Lumpkins: Tom is morally obligated to apologize for saying the first because he acknowledges the second. Once again, Dr. Lumpkins, you and I must simply agree to disagree on the congency of your protest. Have a blessed day! Sending the CDs is an excellent idea. Though in Louisiana, I am going to present this matter to our combined Elders & Deacons meeting tomorrow night. I hope we can send over some money to help our sister churches in Florida. BTW, we are planning on sending Dr. Tom Nettles book "Ready for Reformation" to every church in the LBC (1,600+ churches). The total cost will be $14,400. We have $3,500. As you think of this matter, we would apprciate your prayers. No surrender! Earl Dear Dr. Ascol, Bravo! Very clever. I like to be clever (when I can). I like it when others are clever (like you). The problem is, the tone of being clever is a little off-base here. Indeed, I think I know why. Founders possesses a pretty clear record in calling for public apologies, indicting those who "slander" the DoG, publicly taking to task those who "speak evil" against the brethern, etc. Thus, I can appreciate why you wish to sidetrack the point I make by "being clever." For me, I say that's simply peachy. I do not know how Dr. Sullivan feels though since he probably was deeply offended by being accused of something by you but now, according to you, he did not do: "no cooperative program money was spent to send out Dr. Vines' sermons." Oh well. Chalk up one for the old clever, Dr. Ascol, aey? Grace for this afternoon. With that, I am... Peter Dr. Lumpkins: Clever? Me? Hardly. I am simply trying to be honest and encouraging you to be, as well. How have I sidetracked the point? I have tried, as simply as I know how to point out that you have falsely accused me. You accuse me of accusing Dr. Sullivan of misappropriating CP funds. I have never done that and you, despite your many efforts, have not been able to demonstrate that I have. All you have been able to do is repeat my words that "God's money" was used. When I expose the fallacy of your reasoning and encourage you to own your duplicity, you charge me with trying to be "clever" and sidetracking the argument. Dr. Sullivan knows that I have not done what you have accused me of doing. He and I have discussed it. Anyone who reads what I have written knows that I have not done what you have accused me of doing, because my words are not hard to understand. Nevertheless, if you are determined to persist in your false accusation--which you seem bent on doing--I cannot stop you. Having done my best to point out your error and encourage you to correct your false accusation, all I can do now is to stand by and watch your credibility further evaporate with each attempt you make to confuse the issue further while refusing to own your actions. Still, I wish you a grace filled day. Tom, I think you really ought to approach your state convention and let them help you. I think the cooperating churches in that state convention deserve to hear a reason why such a request would be denied...if in fact it would be. And if the request is granted how wonderful would that be? I do strongly encourage you to make the request...the churches in that state would be served well by you making it and knowing about the response. Dr. Ascol, "all I can do now is to stand by and watch your credibility further evaporate with each attempt you make to confuse the issue further while refusing to own your actions." Dr. Ascol, with all due respect, I do not think you are concerned about my "credibility further evaporat[ing]" You're not only clever, but an hilarious hoot as well:^) You wrote three statements of interest about this:..." Contrarily, the issue is not how Dr. Sullivan views it. After all, Dr. Sullivan is an alleged anti-Calvinist sending out anti-Calvinist propaganda. I would not rely too heavily on him as an authority were I you. Rather the issue is whether or not Dr. Sullivan used "[churches] money" (b)--what you call "God's money" (a)--to "blatantly attack what those churches believe and teach." Unless I'm missing something in your posts, Dr. Ascol, God's money" and "[churches] money = CP money. Now, at least the way I read it, Dr. Ascol, (c) seems to be a direct correction to the record of (a) and (b). And, Dr. Ascol, for the record: there is no "many efforts to demonstrate you have [accused Dr. Sullivan]." I simply read your post today and noticed a glaring inconsistency: "no cooperative program money was spent to send out Dr. Vines' sermons", which is directly against you've repeated numerous times and others like Brister, Lollar and Puryear followed your lead. Come to find out--CP monies were not used: "no cooperative program money was spent to send out Dr. Vines' sermons." Peace today, Dr. Ascol. With that, I am... Peter It doesn't take being a Southern Baptist to see how wonderful an opportunity this is to spread the gospel! I look forward to giving what I can. I'm not privy to the polity of the Florida Baptist Convention so I don't exactly understand all the politics involved... yet I have been a calvinistic Christian long enough to have experienced being misrepresented and marginalized! Dear Dr. Lumpkins: We must have used different textbooks in our logic classes! I suspect we probably used different ethics books, as well. :-) You write:..." Then you write: Now, at least the way I read it, Dr. Ascol, (c) seems to be a direct correction to the record of (a) and (b). I will certainly grant that you have the right to read it that way. But I must sadly point out that your reasoning would not convince even a freshman student of logic--unless, perhaps, he or she used whatever textbook you studied. Though I am growing weary of pointing out the obvious, let me try to do so one more time: The only way c would contradict a is if "God's money" is limited to "CP money." You have stated that you do not believe that (which relieves me) and yet you continue to defend a position which requires that untenable view. The only way that c would contradict b is 1) if the only money that ever flows from churches to the state offices is via the CP or 2) if you disallow that which Dr. Hargrave pointed out, that CP monies are used to support the general operating expenses of the state offices. I must assume you must hold both views in order to make your claim. Dr. Lumpkins, it is clear that you and I will never agree on this matter. So, this is my last response to you about it. Thanks for dropping by. Have a grace filled day! Tom, PayPal wants to charge sales tax on this donation (I never got my extra slice of bacon in San Antonio by the way). If we Florida pastors donate in this way, will the 6% have to be sent to the state? Would a mailed check be better for the project? Klay: Sorry about that! We are working on fixing that problem. The additional 6% for "sales tax" in Florida is automatically added, but we hope to take it off asap. I assure you, that 6% of any donations will not be sent to the state government. Thanks for pointing this out. Look for your extra slice of bacon in the mail! :-) ta Mr. Ascol, I'm sure you are familiar with Phil Johnson's blog "Pyromaniacs." Mr. Johnson has just a few rules for his blog, one of which is "Don't feed the trolls." I did not fully appreciate this rule until I made the ill fated attempt to engage in a rational exchange with a certain defender of the SBC party line. That exchange drove home the importance of not feeding trolls. Your points have been made in a clear, rational, evidence supported manner. You have presented the truth for anyone who cares to see it. My unsolicited advice is that you do not need to spend time belaboring the obvious. Keep up the good work! Dr. Ascol, For you to continue to insist on your point in the face of your own words--"no cooperative program money was spent to send out Dr. Vines' sermons" is beginning to embarrass even me, my good Dr. Ascol. I'd hoped you would, for all the times you've called on others to publicly retract, have better evidence than "I don't see it like you do." Oh well, if nothing else, perhaps others will now run the resources they get on the net, doing their own research, before they climb on board the hay wagon. To your defense your usual hit men have gone silent. I recall the last encounter here when I was only wishing well the possible coming of Dr. Nettles to your church and even attempted to offer my compliments to him. Consequently, I fell among theives, was wounded and left for dead. The only one to your rescue now is Farmboy--whom, of course I dare not address since I remain a troll. Of course, I recall the brief exchange I had with him differently than he. From my memory, I was attempting to offer evidence as he piled on the emotive insults. If that is being a troll, then being a troll I shall be. I hope your evening is a peaceful one. With that, I am... Peter I think Bro. Hargrave's comments made it quite clear that CP money did, in fact, pay for this mail-out. CP money paid for the resources - letterhead, ink, envelopes, labels, time spent. Plus, where does Florida Baptist Financial Services get money from? If the money was drawn from their resources (gifts from SBC churches and members), does it not in fact act as a de facto CP. I have to question no only the ethics of Dr.Sullivan from drawing money from FBFS (while also hiding the reason for the request from McClelland)...but also his attempt to disguise this as not taking any CP and FBC resources, when it clearly did. I also view it as unethical to stamp the FBC logo on the CDs to give it credibility, but then when called on using CP funds says the FBC didn't pay for it. If it didn't, then don't pretend it did. (Again, he did use FBC and CP resources, even if it is not line-itemed in the budget.) Highly unethical...if not purposefully misleading. I think Dr.Sullivan needs to be reminded that he works for us...not the other way around. IMO, he's gotten "too big for his britches" the way he has made declarations and pronouncements (and decisions like this) the past few years. This whole thing stinks...I for one am glad that there is a response. I just wish Sullivan would "man up" and address his reasons as well as answer the criticisms. That is what any honest man of God, with nothing to hide or apologize for, would do. At the risk of feeding "trolls" it would seem that the two of you genetlemen (Drs. Lumpkins and Ascol) are using different definitions for the same terms. Originally I has *thought* that CP funds were used for this distribution myself, but I had wrongly equated two things that were not necessarily the same. (logical fallacy of equivocation on my part) Since Dr. Ascol has clarified his meanings, I have been corrected as to my understanding. :) Dr. Lumpkins, I cannot help but think that you are simply not grasping the difference in definitions the two of you are employing. From what I've seen of you on this blog, you have been amiable and have enjoyed the dialogues I've read [usually :D], though here the misunderstanding is growing and appears less than helpful. I'll stop with what I was saying regarding it, especially since Dr. Tom has stopped and I fear I may be out of order continuing to address it. So, I'll end with this last comment: May God move in the hearts of His people to get the funds together for this project and may His truth be known far and wide in the Florida Baptist Convention! SDG, dbh BTW, Pete...maybe no one is rushing to Tom's defense because...he doesn't need defense against your statements. Your logic is flawed. Your perspective is backwards. Your statements are condescending and underhanded. What I don't get is how someone can be shown their error several times but still talk down to someone as if they were right all along. For the most part you are being ignored...now I will join the throngs in overlooking your ramblings. With that I am....back to ignoring you. :) Dear J. Gray, "Your logic is flawed. Your perspective is backwards. Your statements are condescending and underhanded." Why, thank you, J. Gray. How wonderful of you to say so. David, I may be missing the "definition" but my question is, why would we need a technical definition in a question of this type? One recalls the classic Clintonian response: "It depends on what you mean by 'is'." Please. Dr. Ascol himself conceded: "no cooperative program money was spent to send out Dr. Vines' sermons." Splitting hairs over this is simply, well, ur, uh splitting hairs, for heaven's sake. My simple point is, if no CP money was spent, the outrage is misguided. Grace. With that, i am... Peter J. Gray: I understand your frustration. Indeed, in many ways I share it. Let me caution you, however, about getting personal in your critique. Dr. Sullivan is our Christian brother. In many ways and situations I have found him to be a wonderful, respectable Christian leader. Obviously, I disagree with what he did in sending out these CDs. I think it was a mistake and an unwise use of *God's money" (note to anyone who may miss the obvious: God's money is not limited to that which flows through the CP). I have spoken with Dr. Sullivan about this. We had a very cordial, even warm conversation about it. We disagree. Let's keep our comments here focused on the great good that can come out of these events if our Lord is pleased to overrule them in that way. Join me in praying that the Lord will enable us to do what we are planning in this project; and pray that many will be challenged and encouraged in their understanding of and commitment to the truth of God's Word. Maybe no one's coming to Dr. Tom's defense because like Peter and those bloggers he referenced they too read Dr. Tom's words as meaning CP funds not just "God's money." A less prideful person might be able to recognize that since more than just Peter saw Ascol's posts as referring to CP money he should make some attempt at apologizing for having not been clear enough in his rant (if indeed he actually never intended to imply CP money was used since there seems to be a question of ethics). Pray for humility indeed! Praying fervently for you all in this God-honoring endeavor. For the sake of His Truth for HIS glory. Lisa Nunley Gentlemen, I agree whole heartedly with Dr. Hargrave. There's no way that FBC funds were not used in this ordeal. Maybe there's no budgeted line item for this transaction. However, the expense of letterhead, secretarial time, John Sullivan's time, postage, copier usage, and everything else that Dr. Hargrave points out - we paid for. So again, there's no reason to apologize to John Sullivan. And I have a question, why are we so apologetic all the time. As if we have to defend everything we say with an apology for being forthright. Is there no room for zeal in the life of a Christian? Does zeal have to be smothered in the gravy of "please don't take this wrong my Christian brother?" Man, why can't we just say it because the Bible says it? Do we not believe like Spurgeon that calvinism is the gospel? If so, (I certainly do) then why do we have to qualify every little thing we do so that they won't say we're mean calvinists? Frankly, I think it's time we call it like it is and stop wanting to hold hands and sing Cum ba ya. We're not talking about the color of the carpet; we're talking about the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. I wish that our Calvinist leaders would start making that the issue because that's the issue worth fighting for. Bro. Tom, Thank you for your careful warning. I want to make sure that my critique doesn't become washed out by a harsh tone. Your warning is well taken. But I think there is a need for Dr. Sullivan to step up and answer the questions that have been brought out by his actions in this regard. (My frustration stems from several years of actions and statements by him.) It is a fine line between making critiques personal and critiquing the actions and attitudes of a person. I truly believe that his actions in this issue (and his vague statements since) are unethical. I think this was a calculated move and it was set up so that he could answer "no CP monies were used". That is purposefully misleading. So, while I (as a lifelong Florida Baptist) am thankful for the work Dr. Sullivan has done over the years, it does not mean that I am willing to overlook unethical actions now. I do however want to make sure that I do not attack him, as I know him to be a faithful brother in Christ. But his actions MUST be critiqued...especially since he is serving us as Florida Baptists. The line between actions and the person are a very thin one. There are certain biblical admonitions that appear to be most applicable in the context of the blogosphere these days. Proverbs 26:4 comes to mind. What kpcalvinist said..... Dr. Hargrave: Indeed, Proverbs 26:4 seems appropriate with many things going on in the blogosphere nowadays. Thank you for bringing it to our attention. SDG, dbh That's funny Cornelius! kpcalvinist, Amen and amen! If we truly believe that the doctrines we hold are truth, then it's time to stand up and say so. If indeed the doctrines of grace ARE the gospel, then why compromise with another one? Nobody likes division...but the truth will divide, there's no getting around it. That is unless one takes the position that truth is all relative. I'm not saying that one should set out with the sole purpose of being divisive, I'm just saying it's time to take a stand and let the chips fall where they may.2 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the Word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48) With this and other countless accounts of God's Grace in Salvation--why does man cling so tightly to "decision theology?" Are we impugned so fervently because we dare to say that God saves sinners and actually mean it? (Actually these questions are rhetorical in nature.) I agree with the brothers who are enouraging us in love to stand...and after that, to stand. Whether in His justice, or in His mercy...He will be Glorified. NativeVermonter says: "--why does man cling so tightly to "decision theology?" Are we impugned so fervently because we dare to say that God saves sinners and actually mean it?" ...and let the misrepresentations begin. Hey Dr. Tom, what happened to your sense of humor? Maybe you could bring up that post about NetFinney cause it sure is funny to mock the other side isn't it? Tom, I absolutely love this idea and will pray with my family about how to be involved financially. Then, when this is done we can figure out how to do the same in Georgia. This is where the battle is and really where it should be. I mean at the local church level, not just in the great state of Georgia. :-) When it comes to government, we have the kind of politicians we have because of the kind of people we are. When it comes to the SBC, in many cases (not all) we have the kind of leadership we have because of the kind of churches we have. When our churches are transformed our convention will be as well. In fact, I believe we need to go farther than this. I think we should have a set of relatively concise but powerful documents in PDF format that can be easily e-mailed. Imagine if our people began e-mailing documents like Tom's "Integrity Resolution" or Roy Hargrave's "An Idol Called Evangelism" to everyone on their e-mail list with a request to pass it on to anyone they think would benefit. We could come up with other very attention getting titles. Let's take this to the streets. What do you think Tom and Roy? Tom, I am not in FL so I had to go to the Woodstock website and find Dr. Vines' sermons on Baptist Battles. I finished the sermon and let the music continue until the end of the sermon. What Dr. Hunt said at the end was even worse than what Dr. Vines said even though he only spoke a few sentences. In essence he said -- You Calvinists need to tell your friends what you really believe . . . tell them that you believe that babies go to hell! The emotional attacks that are w/o basis are what I find most disturbing. Paypal taxes are removed, but now there are S&H charges. BUT, I still managed to give exactly what I intended - though I did try several combinations first! :) I think this is the most I've ever commented on a post before. :) In any case, I wanted to chime in about how people are mentioning the importance of standing up for the truth of the Doctrines of Grace, and it is surely important. However, someone (I think) seemed to express frustration at all of the constant attacks said Doctrines suffer and also seemed to be growing tired of being gentle in communicating our apologetic for the truth. I would caution us to remain ever gentle as we remain ever firm. Failure to do so runs great risk of violating the Scripture's commands regarding gentleness. I wrote this article nearly a year ago that deals with this very thing. It's a bit lengthy, but I think worth the read. There are a couple of quotes from Dr. Tom in there too that I think pertain wonderfully to the matter at hand. May God's people be encouraged, and may our Great God and Savior be glorified. dbh mpaqTom I am a frequent reader to your blog and have never left a comment. I must say that the entire debate seems to hinge on the implied meaning of… “As I told a reporter today, it is immoral to ask churches to support with their finances activities that blatantly attack what those churches believe and teach.” Although you have made it clear that this is not CP money, in the context of a state director and Florida Baptist Churches, one could very easily assume that you are referring to CP money. I believe that Dr. Lumpkins is reading the quote this way and thus ask for an apology only if to clarify the issue. However, the reason I am commenting is concerning the language in which you corrected Mr. Lumpkins. Using phrases such as “freshman logic” and “evaporating credibility” I believe is beneath you. Having said that, I know nothing of your previous discussions with Dr. Lumpkins. Maybe he deserved it, but you still should not go there. In the end, think you for your insight. I enjoy all that you write. David G Dr. Ascol, with all due respect, I do not think you are concerned about my "credibility further evaporat[ing]" You're not only clever, but an hilarious hoot as well:^) One cannot tarnish a rusted blade. Tom is castigated for allegedly saying that CP money was used for the mailing. Peter is the one who equated "God's money" with CP money. And now Peter is allegedly embarrassed for Tom, because Tom says that CP money was not used, and nowhere has Peter found a statement by Tom stating that CP money was used. By Peter's own admission above, Tom has made 3 statements:..." He sees c as a correction of a and b, but what Peter has done is make an assertion minus the argument. How, exactly, is that a correction, except on his own assumptions about a and b? One has to assume the consequent in order to arrive at that conclusion, e..g that "God's money" refers to CP dollars, particularly CP dollars spent on the mailing itself. I would point out that Dr. Sullivan used his *position*, which does involve CP monies, via the general operating expenses of the FBC (a fact that Peter has yet to acknowledge here), to do this. If Peter has a problem with that, then perhaps he should write Dr. Hargrave or just get the FBC to stop using CP dollars to pay the ED of their convention. What we *do* have if Eddie McClelland's admission that FL Baptist Financial Services was asked to raise money for the project, and is dismay that Dr. Sullivan used the monies in the gift for something that Brother Eddie himself says was political. Basically, that's their credit union. They do church funds mgmt, estate planning, charitable gift planning, trust mgmt, personal investing, church lending, and scholarships. That sounds a lot like God's money at work. What we have here, then, is a classic example of turning material into an argument before attempting to refute , ineffectually, an argument of his own making, then castigating Tom for not measuring up. That's called mirror-reading. Peter is castigating Tom for something that is dependent not on what Tom wrote, but what Peter assumed and inferred, and, as we shall see, it was Peter who made the connection. To your defense your usual hit men have gone silent. “Hit men.” Ah, yes, the irenic world of ad homineum invective. So much for Peter's forked tongue rhetoric about irenicism. The reason those "hit men" have "gone silent" has nothing to do with the lack of merit to Tom's response, but the obvious illogic of your own. There is some damage that can only be done by an interlocutor who continues to make the same flawed presentation. So far, they have let you do all the work. Being the agreeable guy you are, you were drawn here like fly to paper, despite your repeated and often self-refuted claims to have no grudge against Founders ministries, Calvinists, or those who post here, and now you've gotten your wings trapped in it. You drew your own negative conclusions and then you proceeded to argue with...yourself. The whole time you called for Tom to make a correction, it was, as we shall see below, nothing more than a correction of your own making, for you drew negative conclusions on your own then proceeded to castigate Tom for negative conclusions that you drew. My simple point is, if no CP money was spent, the outrage is misguided. Since Eddie McClelland himself has made the comment that had he known about the purpose for which the money he was asked to raise was to be used, he would not have done so, since his institution serves "all FL Baptists." However, even if your frame the issue without reference to “CP dollars” Brother Sullivan still used his position as Executive Director of the FBC to do this. Further, the letter does not indicate that he was acting as a “private citizen.” No, he was acting as ED of the FBC and using his access to the churches to do this. Ergo, even if we frame the issue in the terms Peter provides, there is plenty of “outrage” here. I would further point out that, as we shall see, from Peter’s own comments elsewhere, if CP dollars were used there is, in his view, still no outrage. Peter can't seem to keep track of his own thinking, or he's since changed his mind, or he's speaking with a forked tongue. I may be missing the "definition" but my question is, why would we need a technical definition in a question of this type. David did not call for a "technical" definition. This is now your tendentious characterization of the term "God's money" as defined for you by Tom, a definition given to correct an argument of your own making, Please do not chastise others for answering you on your own level. Peter can't keep track of his own argument. Tom merely answered Peter on his own level, since Peter is the one that framed the argument in those terms. Then, when answered on those terms, he complained about the answer. I simply read your post today and noticed a glaring inconsistency: "no cooperative program money was spent to send out Dr. Vines' sermons", which is directly against you've repeated numerous times and others like Brister, Lollar and Puryear followed your lead. Peter is confusing words and concepts. “God’s money” is a set of words. It can mean many things. Rather than actually, you know, ask Tom nicely to clarify, Peter came out with guns blazing. What’s more Brother Peter can't keep track of his own argumentation over time, so it seems somebody will have to do it for him by actually looking at the pertinent material. Peter mentioned Timmy Brister's comments, but where was Peter when Timmy Brister posted that? An entry from Peter is remarkably absent from that thread. If then that was an issue, then he should have said something then. Timmy did make a statement about *cooperation* not "CP dollars." These are not convertible concepts. The first mention of CP dollars in connection with this incident came from one “Davethepastor” in the form of a question in the combox, and it was not answered one way or the other. So, yet again, we have *Peter* making that connection as fact, not the writer, and what did Peter actually say about CP dollars? Peter mentioned Bill Lollar. If this alleged inaccuracy was a concern then, then Peter should have said something then. But here is what he *did* state then on Bill's blog: But know nonCalvinists such as myself could slice that pie too by whinning about Dr. Nettles who teaches at SBTS, offering a point of view that not only does not represent my views, but is far from the overwhelming majority of Southern Baptists. Do I think it is wrong to pay Dr. Nettles with my CP dollars? I do not. (emphasis mine) a. One cannot help but notice that in that thread, Bill Lollar had said nothing about CP dollars. I contacted him personally to verify this after looking for it myself, and for information about any other comments he may have made in unguarded fashion. He replied: "I did not make any reference to CP dollars funding Sullivan's CD project." b. So, Peter made that connection. And, guess, what, brothers, in my original commentary @ Triablogue, I too made that connection (a correction has since been made), but I’ve also been too hopped up on Soma and Vicodin over the past few weeks to fail to notice. At least I have an excuse. Peter’s objections are remarkably absent from that thread too. c. Speaking of which Peter apparently had no problem with the idea that if *CP dollars* were used, they should be used for such a mailing, since his own illustration involved Dr. Nettles @ SBTS, a position paid for by CP dollars with which Peter disagrees, yet he does not find it disagreeable that he teaches at SBTS on CP dollars. d. So, where is the outrage? He says he believes Tom falsely accused Brother Sullivan, but apparently it isn't *by his own words* an accusation with which he has a problem anyway if true, and it is, in reality a conclusion that Peter himself drew, so Peter is castigating Tom for falsely accusing Brother John Sullivan, but why? Peter is the one that actually did that himself in his own mind and in other comments, while believing and publicly stating that, even if true, it isn't objectionable at all. I see this on a regular basis from atheists like John Loftus, who throw up objections to Christianity which they really don’t believe anyway; I expect better from the Brethren. An atheist can’t very well attack the Bible on the grounds it is immoral if s/he doesn’t believe anything is intrinsically good or evil. In the same way, it is irrational to attack Tom, Bill, Timmy, and Les, or anybody else for connecting “CP dollars” to John Sullivan and this incident if one doesn’t believe that using CP dollars for such a project is problematic. That’s schizophrenic. So, what he does is attack Tom on the grounds that he’s called on others to retract misleading and misrepresentational statements in the past, but that’s still irrational since (a) Tom made no such statements; (b) the person making the statements was Peter from negative conclusions he himself made and then proceeded to treat as fact; and (c) John Sullivan is the ED of the FBC, a powerful position that depends on CP dollars. e. Peter stated this not because of something *Bill Lollar* stated, but because of something one *Ubergoober* stated, about "all of us" paying for it (eg. FL Baptists), and he's right, for the FL Baptist Foundation receives money from "all of us,” and John Sullivan represents “all of us” with money paid for by FL Baptist dollars. Peter was the one that made the connection to CP dollars directly, not Tom, not Bill, not even Ubergoober, you Peter, and you appeared to have made the connection not simply to his position and power, which is clearly funded by CP dollars anyway, but, as you state in this combox at this time now, regarding the mailing itself. So, framed in the terms of your own argumentation, “You are the man.” f. Greg Alford made the connection to CP dollars reflecting on the conversation between Ubergoober and Peter. So, it seems that the term "CP dollars" there is one that was invented by Peter. g. The only other reference I can find to CP dollars on this at Founders came from Aaron Turner in the combox of Tom’s first thread. There was no protracted discussion, just a comment. h. Peter mentioned Les Puryear, but Les never said anything about CP dollars being used, and Peter posted one time in that thread and said not a word about CP dollars. I personally checked with Brother Les. He wrote, “I don't have to check my blog archives because I have NEVER said anything about CP dollars other than reporting CP giving percentage from the churches on nominees to various boards and agencies. When I heard about the witch hunt in Florida I did provide a link from my blog to Tom Ascol's. However, I have never personally said anything about anyone's use of CP money, much less the FBC." Peter waited until now to raise this issue it seems, and that strikes me as eminently disingenuous, for you see, he castigates Tom for falsely accusing Brother John Sullivan for an action that, if true, he wouldn't find problematic anyway, so he doesn’t seem to really believe there’s a problem with using CP dollars for such a mailing. Apparently he’s either changed his mind secretly or he can’t keep track of his own argumentation. Ergo, he’s upset about a misrepresentation in which, if true, he does not, following his own comments at his own named sources, really believe is a problem. No, he’s concerned that Tom misrepresented John Sullivan’s actions, but that is patently false, and in fact, is a negative conclusion that Peter drew long ago on his own without any help from anybody he names and, it seems, without emailing Brother Tom, Bill, Timmy, or Les or at least voicing his concern or belief the term needs to be clarified in the combox. Further, in the midst of crying foul and holding Brother Tom accountable for allegedly bearing false witness, he bears false witness against not one, but THREE brothers in the course of a single sentence, and if you add Tom, FOUR. The only persons who have been falsely accused here are those four persons. David G: Thanks for your comment. I think you are correct about the interpretation of that phrase. I was very careful in how I worded things, both to the reporter and on the blog. I did not know if CP money was spent when I originally posted. Given the fact that the head of the Florida Financial Services co-signed the letter, I suspected it wasn't. However, resources that came from Florida Baptists most certainly were used. When Dr. Sullivan criticized the debate on resolution #5 last year at the SBC he wrote that he could not believe that 30 minutes of God's precious time was wasted on that issue. His words were in my mind when I wrote what I did. Regarding your rebuke of how I responded to Peter. I accept it and thank you for it. As you guessed, there is a long history behind our exchange. Take a peek at his blog to get the most recent rounds. I don't want to be personally defensive, for many reasons, not the least of which is that it clouds the issues at hand. So do personal attacks. Where I am guilty of making such, I am without excuse. My intent was to point out the irrationality of Dr. Lumpkins' argument. He and I have often disagreed but usually because of difference of opinion, not because of an inability to draw valid conclusions from known facts. He made assumptions and then charged me with what he assumed. I reject his assumptions and stand by my very carefully selected words--words that are in print and beyond dispute. Someone referenced Proverbs 26:4 earlier in this string. Verse 5 follows immediately after it, thus setting us on the horns of a dilemma at points. By this I do not mean to call anyone a fool, but to recognize the biblical wisdom that comes at times by refusing to engage a disputant on his own terms and at other times doing exactly that. I confess that I do not always see clearly when to do which. Thanks again for caring enough to comment and for your willingness to address me on this. God Bless you Tom. I look forward to attending the meeting in November. David G Tom, I'm not in the SBC but felt led to support the project. There are times when I wish I were part of the SBC, I love to listen to Dr. Mohler, Dr. Dever, Pastor Paul Washer, and to read your daily blog. I will look for a link to listen to your preaching in the near future. I've lived out the fruit that comes from the Anti-Calvinism camp, I come from a Calvary Chapel background, where I was ordained to the ministry and then later told I wouldn't be able to teach because of my beliefs regarding the Doctrines of Grace, specifically my classical reformed view of the Atonement, they had big issues when we got to the fine print of the doctrine and all it entailed. So the issues you are facing are not limited to the SBC. 1 Corinthians 9:24 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. For His Glory, Mark This has turned pitiful. Tom explains himself. Tells us he has talked to Mr. Sullivan who does not see a false statement. FBC money was used though no CP. Tom never said it had been from a specific fund. Who would have thought that our former graceful visitor would lay in wait to make a poor effort at an ambush. And another visitor who has been treated warmly and for the most part gently is also posting negatively. Peter, you have yet to engage Tom, only your reading, not the actual words and intent. You have been told the supposedly offended party has no problem. Brother you have lost me. Greg Dr. Tom: Your humility is an example to us all, especially how you responded to the rebuke in this post. Again, I have reason to thank God for you, sir! SDG, dbh Dave Hewitt, Brother, please point to me where the Scripture tells us to be gentle when dealing with heresy. We are speaking about heresy, right? The DVD that we are mailing out advertises a statement from Spurgeon that says "calvinism is the gospel." If we agree with what we are mailing out, then those who say the Doctrines of Grace are heresy and a false gospel are actually teaching and believing a false gospel themselves, are they not? When Paul addressed the Galatian church he didn't say Oh foolish Galatians who has bewitched you – Oh I'm sorry I need to be more gentle. Paul didn't say let those who preach this other gospel be accursed – Oh I'm sorry that just slipped out in a moment of fleshliness. Jesus didn't say in Matthew 23 You Pharisees are fools, Oh man - didn't mean to say that. Or in John 8 when Jesus called the Pharisees sons of the devil - He didn't take it back and say that His zeal got carried away. Please show me where gentleness is commanded when dealing with heresy. Jude doesn't say it! Peter doesn't say it! I can't find it. Are we to be gentle in some situations, yes! But we are talking about the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ! I feel that gentle has left the building. I don't mean that we use physical force but I do mean that we draw a line in the sand and say here we stand and we are held captive by the Word of God and we will not move or give in. If God be for us who can be against us? No one can take anything away from us that God does not decree. Dear Gene, Thank you for your wonderful dissertation. And, quite honestly, I am flattered my little post drew such from you, Gene. I only wish the critique I humbly offered toward your flawed research on Sandy Creek could have garnered a quarter of the words, old fellow, you chose to direct toward this lost cause. I'm sure you disagree. But, we both know that's expected. As for others here, I appreciate the criticism directed toward my post. Always, in my view, ideas need--no deserve--questions. Strength builds as a result. More appreciated indeed, and oddly so, I suppose, the criticism toward me personally. I accept it--gladly. If one cannot accept without anger nor malice personal criticism, he need not crawl into the open as did I. Some of you have implied my alleged "irenic" aura is now safely vanished away. That's also acceptable to me. I do not, gentlemen, depend upon your assessments of me to influence one way or another what I will or will not say or believe. I trust similarly the same for you. If my interpretive powers are flawed in the particulars surrounding this entire fiasco, it will not be the only time this has been so. Nor will it be the last, I remain sure. And, contrary to some who believe my noetic view of sin smacks pelagianism, I remain a fallen creature presently even while I stand restored in Jesus Christ. I am a sinner; of course I can be wrong about this. Nonetheless, you are sinners too, and I conclude from that, that, at bare minimum, the possiblity equally exists that you can be wrong as well. That said, Dr. Ascol affirms he's done no wrong, along, of course, with his community here. My view is that innocence lacks--if we take the words as they are given, minus the rationalization process to make them work. I am perfectly comfortable in admitting such divide in our "takes" on the matter. And, I am perfectly at peace with the public statments I've made about it as I am sure Dr. Ascol stands no less at peace with his. Grace, brothers. And mercy for us all. With that, I am... Peter kpcalvinist my brother, You raise some good points. The issue is this, I suppose: Are the people we are seeking to win over with biblical doctrine our brothers, or aren't they? The Doctrines of Grace are important matters of the Gospel, and they are worth defending and fighting for. However, I am quite wary of drawing my sword against a brother in Christ. In Galatians, Paul spoke out critically against the Judaizers because of a critical flaw in what they were saying. Instead justification by faith alone in Christ alone, they had added a human work into the midst. They were insisting that in order to be saved, someone had to be circumcised in addition to the work of Christ in order to be saved. Paul rightly condemned this as a different Gospel, which is no Gospel at all. In fact, I have recently preached on this very thing; let me know if you are interested in it. The important difference is that we do truly believe that (the majority of) those who are currently opposing us in the SBC with regard to the DOG's are in fact our brothers. Jesus identified the Pharisees as hypocrites, which brought His strong rebuke and woes. Paul didn't think that of the Judaizers and those who bought into their lies it would seem: Galatians 5:2. These indeed are strong words. Even our semi-pelagian synergistic brothers to my knowledge accept that justification is by faith alone in Christ alone. Of course, they are completely inconsistent as to how they think this takes place, but that is part of what we seek to do -- educate them and by the grace of God they would embrace a much more biblical soteriology and that Christ would be glorified all the more. I do not doubt for a moment that TULIP is critically important for the Gospel; I believe it wholeheartedly, and will defend it to anyone who denies it, but when I do so I will seek to correct them with gentleness if at all possible. If someone persists in error and does not handle the Scripture properly and with reverence, a strong rebuke is in order. When the error is public, a public response is also in order. My point is that, especially when we are dealing with brothers and sisters in Christ, we should seek to be gentle wherever possible. I do not dispute that the time for a passionate, strong rebuke comes at times (and one can be passionate and gentle simultaneously), but unbridled zeal is rarely productive. SDG, dbh Tom, Gregg Bahnsen gave this sense to Prov 24:5,6. Don't use your opponent's presuppositions in argument or you will wind up with his conclusions. Then use his presuppositions to show he can not live consistently and rationally with his own presuppositions. I don't know how this might apply here, but that has helped me in understanding those verses. Sort of in line with your comments. As a word of encouragement, I worked with the Berean Tape Ministry in sending tapes on the doctrines of grace to the students at the seminaries and Baptist College of Florida. Some of the tapes were thrown in the trash can. Dr Lewis Lamnpley picked a set out and listened to them . He came by the Berean House and from those cast off tapes I was able to teach the doctrines of grace to a class of 7-10 black pastors for over 4 years. So let's do what we can do and trust God to do what He alone can do. By His grace alone, Cap Bro. Dave, I don't want this to turn in to a "you and me" show, so this will be my last. I understand that we want them to come to the truth and we can reach out to them in love, but love doesn't always mean soft voices and apologies. Love can be shaking the dust off your feet. You mentioned that we are dealing with brothers in Christ. Okay, let's say we are, wasn't it Jesus who rebuked Peter and said, 'get behind me Satan.' That's a conversation to an apostle. That was pretty harsch wasn't it? Peter was probably pretty broken after that, which was likely the point. Brokenness needs to come when you oppose the things of God. Luther. Thanks for the exchange Dave. kp: Your point is well taken. I, with Luther, have no desire to shrink back from the exposition of the truth of God, especially since it is under attack in the SBC right now. I will, as God allows, continue to proceed forward with gentleness. If it continually falls on unreceptive ears, a more stern message may indeed be required. My plea is simply that we exhaust gentleness before jumping to forcefulness. :) I've failed to do this on occasion, and it hasn't been a good thing. SDG, dbh Hello: I've been "lurking" for some time but never commented here. In light of several comments in this thread I'm left wondering what it is in general that people think is necessary for the Gospel and so determines who are considered to be brothers & sisters. david b. hewitt said: "My point is that, especially when we are dealing with brothers and sisters in Christ, we should seek to be gentle wherever possible." Without meaning to pass judgment on someone(s) I've never met, should those who hold to Arminian and, as is more often the case today, even Pelagian-like teachings automatically be considered brothers & sisters in Christ? And if so, on what basis? I don't deny it is possible to be trapped in this system and yet be born again (even before the reformation during the dark ages there were glimmers of light). But if a person holds to man's ability to choose God at any time, then they are really practically denying all 5 points of Calvinism in some way even if they don't admit to it (someone else stated above that Spurgeon equated Calvinism with the Gospel). How can a person have been brought to the point of utter helplessness, see that there is nothing they can do to be saved, and so rest completely on the grace of God but yet then say that it was in their ability to come to this point or that others can decide to come to this point as well? The theology would seem to contradict experience if there really is experience. Unless I am mis-reading him, Luther is pretty clear in Bondage of the Will that if one is really holding to free-will in the way that Erasmus seemed to be, then they are denying the very foundation of the Gospel and by implication the Gospel itself. Is Luther right? I'm not denying that believers can unwittingly hold to teachings that they really deny in practice, but is that really the case most of the time today? Perhaps this thread is wearing out for so many questions, but I would still be very interested to see some more dialog about this. a.shroeder, I'll let the academia fill in the details but as I see this whole issue it's like this: every person's whole theology swings on the hinges of how they answer these two questions: 1) Something happened in the garden. What happened and what was it's consequence? 2)Something happened at the cross. What happened and what was it's result? Everything else hinges on those answers. hisbygrace: If I believe that (1) Adam & Even fell in the garden & by consequence all mankind is trapped in sin and then also agree that (2) Jesus died on the cross to save sinners such as me and has propitiated the wrath of God against my sin, should I then conclude that I am a Christian and have been born again? a.shroeder, My point is this: the real issue for me isn't whether I can call someone a brother if their understanding of the gospel is not mine...someone could know the doctrines of grace and be able to argue theological points front to back...but I can't look into that person's heart and know with 100% certainty if he is converted or not. The question for me is, can I truly cooperate with someone who holds to doctrines which are contrary to my understanding of the gospel? ie: going on a mission trip to take the gospel to a people group where one believes in a decisionistic gospel and whose goal in evangelism is to evoke a "decision for Christ" from an individual, and the other is willing to tell that same individual that he is a sinner, dead in trespasses and sin, and helpless to do anything about it? Can two walk together unless they be agreed? The answers to the two questions, for me at least, is a determiner as to whether I can truly cooperate with someone in the gospel. hisbygrace, I just read your comment from earlier agreeing with kpcalvinist and would agree as well. My only point in bringing up the calling of someone a brother was just to ask why we would generally assume someone is a brother who holds to doctrines that are contrary to the very foundation of the gospel? That's not to say that just because someone understands the gospel intellectually that they are converted, though ("you must be born again"). You raise good questions. I would add also: Should we even be calling "Christian" a system of theology that is contrary to the foundations of gospel? I am convinced (rightly or wrongly) as a layperon that the biggest stumbling block we have to the Doctrines of Grace is one word: Calvin. He was just a man and none of us want to go back to a state church with magistrates and Baptising infants. Why even mention his name when discussing or teaching election? If he is credited with 'systemizing' theology, then why not just teach it out of scripture. I hear more about 'Calvin' in reformed circles than I do about Jesus Christ. I believe this is a great failing of a most beautiful truth of scripture. Someone once said that the SBC is many but not much. The Texas and Florida mailouts are too coincidental to not have been carefully discussed and planned. What you are doing Tom in helping make the Amazing Grace DVD available is honorable. Wish Texan pastors had the same oppty to receive. genembridges is correct in that the main objective is the reform within the churches. At a local SBC church, the new pastor upon taking office last year immediately changed the way we received new members. Gone was the three-month waiting period of evaluation. Instead, he reinstated the usual "Walk Forward/Join the Church" process. He did this arbitrarily, without consulting the deacons, without consulting staff. There were not many protests. The mindset of "walk/join" is the macrocosm within the convenetion. The mindset needs changing first and foremost before any serious discussion can take place about church membership. The pessimist would ask whether any serious discussion (theological, ecclesiological) can even take place at large within the SBC, where many leading evanglicals wonder about its theological astuteness. Dr. Ascol, I hope you will reflect on the comments on this thread. Many times you have said that non-Calvinists are too afraid of Calvinists. Maybe you can see here that some of it is not imaginary. There are many Calvinists out there who can scarcely imagine that a non-Calvinist could be saved. Non sometimes meaning 3 or 3.5 points. You have said that you can count non-Calvinists as brothers. There are plenty of Calvinists out there who only see non-Calvinists as embracing a false gospel. Karen: Thanks for your comment. You raise a very important point about how I operate this blog. I have tried to be clear about my views on the issues you raise. And I have acknowledged that some with whom I agree theologically are just as a great a hindrance to reformation and true fellowship through arrogance and lack of love as are some with whom I disagree. In the "guidelines" that are available through the hotlink on the right of the page, I explain why I grant great leeway in what is put in the comments here. It is not because I agree with everything or approve of everything. Rather, this approach allows at least one measure of the kinds of thinking and attitudes that are "out there." Here is part of the rationale: ." Perhaps it is time for me to rethink this policy and tighten the ground rules for commenting. I am open to that. In one sense it would make it easier on me. Thanks again for your comment. Please don't allow those on the radical fringe (which is how I would describe those guilty of the views you mention) define how the majority of those committed to reformed theology think or relate. I sometimes describe myself as a 5-point Calvinist who is not mad about it. I think that is true of most of us. Lin Said, "I am convinced (rightly or wrongly) as a layperon that the biggest stumbling block we have to the Doctrines of Grace is one word: Calvin." Lin, though I understand your thinking, I must respectfully disagree. I think you are oversimplifying the matter. As another layman who has been a member of 3 different Atlanta area SBC mega churches, I can assure you that the vast majority of "Christians" in these churches know nothing of either Calvin or Spurgeon. They are just names that they hear from time to time from the pulpit when certain quotes suit the pastors message. On the other hand you have the gatekeepers of the convention that should be well aware of the difference between Calvin and Spurgeon, the doctrines of grace and Presbyterianism. If they don't, who is responsible for their ignorance?. Lin, we can try to use terms that may be less offensive, but unless the Spirit works on their hearts they won't accept the truth either way. Our only option is to speak the truth in love and let the chips fall where HE wills. ." I know and understand. That is the whole point. Our allegiance should be to the Word ONLY. Election: It is in there, plain as day. "Lin, we can try to use terms that may be less offensive, but unless the Spirit works on their hearts they won't accept the truth either way. Our only option is to speak the truth in love and let the chips fall where HE wills." Friend, I must have not communicated well. It is NOT about being less offensive or politically correct. It is about glorifying God and His Word..not 'mans' words. My goodness, we have enough following of 'man' out there. I have often wondered why the other 'side' does not refer to altar calls as "Finney's" or decisions for Christ, "Grahams". :o) Grace and Peace of our Savior to you, friend. Karen in OK said: "You have said that you can count non-Calvinists as brothers. There are plenty of Calvinists out there who only see non-Calvinists as embracing a false gospel." I'm not sure who in this thread that is directed at, but I'll attempt to bite since my comments might seem to imply something along these lines. First, I would not consider myself a Calvinist. In recent times everyone has their own definition of that term and so using it can be very misleading and generally I've found it's not very helpful. Yes, I believe that (1) man is utterly dead in sin by nature and those who assert that man has some natural ability to do good are really denying the concept of original sin and by extension the very foundation of the gospel. But if I believe this, it follows that (2) salvation is utterly 100% grace and is not caused by anything in man because there is nothing in man to cause it. To believe otherwise is to deny the first point, not to mention a great deal of Scripture. It then follows (logically & Biblically) that if some are saved and others not, that (3) this decision is entirely of God. To deny this is to deny the second point, which is then to also deny the first. From this it follows Biblically that (4) God has not decided to save every single human. To contradict this is to be a universalist. To deny it is to deny one of the previous points and by extension the rest of them. Then, if the cause of salvation totally rests in God and His will, then it follows that (5) those who He wills to save WILL be saved. Again, to deny this is to deny the rest of the points as well. If this is true (and I am open to discussion), then so far we can see that these 5 points (which some call 4 of the 5 points of Calvinism) all stand or fall together. If someone denies God's choice or election, we must attempt to see the motivation for why they are denying it. If it is simply that they have heard bad things about mean Calvinists, then that is understandable. But if the motivation in denying it is clinging to the free-will of man (and so the bound will of God to man) then their view of God and man is contrary to the foundation of the gospel itself. I am not saying that such a person absolutely cannot be a born-again believer, but I am saying that what they believe is contrary to the Gospel. It's not just some minor points or secondary issues. It's the Gospel itself. Now, is the assumption that what I am saying is motivated by a hatred for people and a love of Calvin? Or could it perhaps be motivated by a love for God and a burden for many who are decieved to see the truth of His character? i'm not a five point calvinist. i believe in salvation by grace. i believe that only thru the death of Jesus on the cross is what's gonna get me into heaven. do yall think that i'm saved? i'm not a five pointer...i believe that man is a free moral agent who makes real choices and has responsibility for his choices. do yall think that i'm saved? david Hey VolFan, are you shaking your head with me and thinking these people haven't got a single clue what it is we actually believe and why? volfan007 said: i believe that man is a free moral agent who makes real choices and has responsibility for his choices. All so-called "Calvinists" I know of also believe that man makes real choices and has responsibility for those choices. That is not the issue. The question is, what do you mean by "free moral agent" or what is meant by free-will? Do you mean: 1. Man is free to choose God without God first giving grace. Or, 2. Simply that man always acts according to his will because his will is really his greatest desire and man always acts according to his greatest desire. Apart from God first working grace, man's desire will always be sinful and never for God. If #1, then how can one really claim to hold to a salvation of grace when the "cause" or motivator of the salvation is one's own decision apart from grace? In that scenario, man himself is the root cause of salvation, not the grace of God. #1 leads to a gospel of human ability not grace. #2 is basically what Jonathan Edwards, the reformers and most other "Calvinists" actually believe (perhaps except for a very very small number of historical hyper-calvinists, but I've never actually met one that I know of). a.schroeder, here's the problem - you're taking one part of what you think you know about our "system" and putting it through the filter of your "system" and stating that it's illogical. And the question isn't is it logical but is it scriptural. volfan007: Just another quick point -- just because you believe those things does not mean that you are saved. In fact, just because somebody believes the 5-points of Calvinism does not mean they are saved. True faith does not reside solely in the intellect. The love of God must be in the soul and there must be some spiritual sight of the glory of God (faith). I'm not making any judgment about you -- based on what you just said I would neither assume you are a believer or an un-believer. On the one hand, assurance of salvation is the work of the Spirit. On the other, we can at times say with a good deal of confidence that somebody is NOT a believer, especially if it is clear that they deny the gospel (not just in mis-undertandings of words). David, I am thoroughly reformed. I believe you are truly saved if you are relying on the death of Jesus alone for your redemption. However, as one convinced of the doctrines of grace, I believe your understanding of grace falls short of the Biblical revelation. Sort of like Apollos needing to be explained the way of God more adequately. I mean all of that as humbly as I can. I have simply never found adequate exegesis by a non-reformed theologian on passages such as John 6, Ephesians 1 and 2, and Romans 9; not to mention the way election is portrayed in the Old Testament in persons like Abraham. Mary, "these people" probably isn't the best way to converse with anyone, much less Christians, as it at least flirts with condescension. I, for one, would assume I have quite a clue about non-reformed beliefs. After all, I grew up in them (Arminian/general Baptist principles) for 18 years, fought against the doctrines of grace for a number of years after that, until about 5 years ago it finally clicked for me. I am not alone. I assume many of the brothers here were non-reformed before they were reformed. This does not prove the reformed faith, but it does disprove your notion that we are just plain ignorant of what a non-reformed Christian believes. If you want to speak to the superiority of your views contra the doctrines of grace, I am all ears to see what I could learn. Seriously. I am not beyond convincing there could be better understandings than what I currently have. I will need some convincing after your comment above that you are really interested in things of such substance. Well Brian, by all means sense you know exatly what it is I believe then please make corrections to the multiple errors in this thread. Thank you for the welcome to this blog. Oh and Brian, you didn't just flirt with the condescension you married it. Don't hurt yourself patting yourself on the back for having evolved into a higher form of Christianity than us mere mortals. Thanks Dr. Ascol, I see nothing ever changes here at your blog. Condescension oozes off the computer screen as always along with caricutures and misrepresentations. Mary: What exactly is "your system" that I don't understand? I agree that we must be Biblical, but I also believe that the Bible is logical & if there are contradictions, then the problem is with our interpretation of the scriptures not that the Bible contradicts itself. What the question comes down to is this: What is the final & ultimate motivator of salvation? Is it the grace of God or something in man? Does God choose who He will give grace to or does He simply forsee what man will choose and act accordingly? do you all think that i preach a true Gospel message whenever i'm not a five point calvinist? david Brian, I have a question for you. You have written that you are "throughly" Reformed. Are you sure ? Do you mean that you are Padeobaptist? Are you Amill in your Eschatology ? Let me go on record that I am . Do you let the unbaptized join the visible church ? Do you let them take the Lord's Supper while being unconverted and unbaptized ? I trust that you mean when you say that you are " throughly Reformed " that you mean that Salvation is of the Lord, High view of God and low view of man, You believe in Church Discipline, Regenerate Church membership and so on.... ? It is so important to be clear these days in Baptist circles. The reason why I ask you these things is because I am teaching seven new potential church members that are visting our church on Thursday nights a class on Baptist History, theology . One of the couples who are Baptist said " We are looking for a Reformed Church and my wife and I are " Reformed to the Core". My response was really" Are you Reformed to the Core or are you a Calvinistic Baptist as I am and our church" . As we discussed what the differences were they said " We are Calvinistic Baptist". I mean no harm or aggravation toward you but we need to be clear on this blog that we are Calvinistic Baptist rather than " Throughly Reformed". Volfan007, First, you ought to be ashamed that you are not an Auburn fan. I already forgive you. You could be worse and be like Timmy Brister in being an Alabama fan. Please tell me as UT man that you and I share a major dislike toward Nick Saban and the Crimson Tide of Alabama ? It would help when asking your question if you will tell us what you believe the gospel to be then people could answer your question better. BTW, I got some inside info that it has already been Predestined that Auburn wins the SEC championship this year however you guys are still responsible in showing up and letting Auburn and Georgia " Tear you Boys Up" ! Ha Ha ! volfan, I believe someone who is not a "calvinist" can absolutely preach the true gospel. I think most of us were saved under the ministries of men who were not "calvinists" or in churches that were not. My question is a flip of that: do you believe "calvinists" preach the true gospel? I'm pretty sure YOU would say yes. But if you think it is the position of most non-calvinists that calvinists actually DO preach the true gospel...then why is there such rancor and hatred in the tone that "calvinists" are talked about and talked to? mary, Why such condescension and vitriol in your tone? If you want to discuss these things, I think a much wiser plan of attack would be to ask questions or discuss Scripture passages...rather than coming and 'talking down' to people on here. You mentioned the arrogance of people here, but something tells me you didn't think about how arrogant that accusation was. I think you'll find that if you openly discuss things here, the tone will stay friendly. JG BTW, volfan, I don't think your non-calvinist views distort the gospel...but being a Vol fan certainly does. :) Go Gators! J.Gray, In the introduction to The Bondage of the Will (Packer/Johnston translation) it says the following: "The man who has not practically and experimentally learned the bondage of his will in sin has not yet comprehended any part of the gospel; for this is the hinge on which all turns, the ground on which the gospel rests." (page 45) It's also been said that Luther thought this was his most important theological work. The question becomes, is Luther right? Is a denial of free-will in the way Erasmus presented it that important? If so, I can think of quite a few major implications. If not, then shouldn't we at least admit that we are more in line with Erasmus' side of the argument than Luther's? We have drifted considerably beyond the original purpose of this post. For that reason, and because teh ground being covered now has been sufficiently covered elsewhere (on this blog and other blogs), I am closing out the comments. Thanks for participating. Pray for this project. Press on!

“Feet don’t fail me now”… thus begins the debut disc from New York native, Lana Del Rey. The title track from Born To Die starts the disc off on the right foot, but clearly she’s walking with two different feet. By the end of 2011, I had heard the name Lana Del Rey as much as I heard the name Adele. Without hearing a single note of music from the girl, she was exploding through the critical stratosphere, propelled by the song “Video Games”. Fast forward some weeks later and my first exposure to Del Rey’s music, much like many others, she appeared on Saturday Night Live. Like watching a deer in the headlights, I thought her appearance was one of the show’s skits. Del Rey injected “Video Games” with the passion of a corpse and appeared more awkward than the freshest of freshmen at their first day of high school. It was uncomfortable at first, and then I decided to stop the pain and go to bed. Clearly she wasn’t prepared for such a national/international stage and it turned me right off the girl. With the backlash that followed, I began to feel sorry for her, starting to chastise her management for throwing her to the wolves like that. Since then, Born To Die came out and while resistant at first (the album sat on my desk for a couple of weeks) Del Rey’s face stared at me, almost daring me to give it a listen. The verdict? Surprisingly good actually, but songs can be split into two teams: one where she applies a more hushed, smokey tone that will appeal to an older demographic; the other. definitely to aim for her own age demographic. Del Rey’s deep voice on “Born To Die” recalls the somber tones of Mazzy Star’s "Hope Sandoval," and was enough to make me instantly rethink my initial dismissal of her. The song’s sweeping strings and muted beats compliment the range of Del Rey’s voice nicely and while it would be easy to tread into adult contemporary territory, the lyrics and production lend it a current and vital vibe. The album is hit and miss from there. The hits “Blue Jeans”, “Video Games,” and “Born To Die” are definitely worth the price of admission alone. These are the songs that wear well with the evening gown. I can almost picture her singing these in place of Isabella Rossellini in Blue Velvet. The misses for me are the tracks where Del Rey sounds like she’s channeling Britney Spears. While this poppier stuff might find a home on the Top 40, ultimately they are forgettable and it will be the slower, almost Florence and the Machine style, that will continue carrying of Del Rey’s torch. The girl is new and I should cut her some slack. She’s new to her feet, but given the dual personalities, she will need to decide which foot fits her best. The following guest blog is written by Indigo's Regional Assortment Analyst, Andrew Rodwell. **** When I was a teenager I learned to play several musical instruments. Of all of them, the guitar was my nemesis. Give me anything brass or with a reed I could play passably well, or at least not terribly, but the guitar required practice and dedication. I just wasn’t that dedicated and my interest waned over the years. A few years ago I finally admitted defeat and sold my acoustic guitar after a decade of disuse. But it would have been great to play the guitar as an adult. I love music and I truly admire musicians in their skill and artistry. Evidently Gary Marcus, as he writes in Guitar Zero, admires their skill and artistry, too. Guitar Zero is a little bit A.J. Jacobs and a little bit Steven Pinker. Gary Marcus wants to learn how to play the guitar before he turns 40, though he has no previous musical training…or obvious talent. Marcus describes his musical adventure in adult learning with establishing the challenges of learning the guitar over, for example, the piano. Marcus explains how learning the guitar is much more difficult than learning the piano due to the many different ways a guitarist can play the same note. Each note on a piano is assigned a unique key, quite unlike the guitar. Examining this difference leads Marcus to explore how the human brain understands music, both as a listener and as a player. Marcus is interested in what makes great musicians great. Physical dexterity is one of the characteristics needed for virtuosity. Great guitar players, he points out, have very fast and dextrous fingers. To me, the most interesting observation Marcus makes, is that virtuoso performances often manipulate timing and tempo to highlight the lead performance. If the lead performer plays just a few milliseconds ahead of their accompaniment, their performance will be noticeably more prominent to the listener. And how the listener hears is as fascinating as the how the musician plays, especially the trained listener, such as a musician or a producer—who can hear things in the music most people do not notice. Musical structures create musical narratives or even jokes - if you know what you are listening for. By the end of the book, Marcus can listen to Miles Davis and understand what he’s doing with his musical choices. This deeper understanding leads to a deeper appreciation of music. Throughout Guitar Zero Marcus asks and attempts to answer many questions: Can a person learn to play a musical instrument later in life? And learn to play it well? Is there a critical period where a person is most apt to pick a new skill? Professional thinkologist Malcolm Gladwell postulates that to be good at something you need to have done that thing for 10,000 hours. That may apply to many activities. Is this true of music as well? Can a person be born with musical talent? Does it give you a leg up if you come from a family of musicians? I found Guitar Zero to be an engaging exploration of the cognitive geography of music and the human mind, and the social aspect of music making. As noted above, Marcus’s most compelling and reverent theme is that of virtuosity; how some musicians can understand music so well—with its mathematical and often bizarre rules—that they can break those rules, improvise, and perform compositions that are greater than the notes from which they are composed. Marcus does not answer the question of where virtuosity comes from, but that is alright, as long as there is beautiful music to listen to and gifted musicians to play it. Steve Martin is a man of multiple talents. Known to many of us as an actor in films like The Three Amigos! and Father of the Bride, Martin has also written the bestselling novels Shopgirl (which he adapted for a film) and An Object of Beauty. He also plays banjo with his bluegrass band, The Steep Canyon Rangers. His newest book, The Ten, Make That Nine, Habits of Very Organized People. Make that Ten. The Tweets of Steve Martin, is a collection of his witty tweets that have gained him 2.3 million followers on Twitter. You can read an except of this very funny book thanks to HBG Canada. Read below, as Steve Martin answers questions on his Grammy wins, the perils of the banjo world "beefs," and his inspiration for The Tweets of Steven Martin: Q: One more Grammy and you’ll catch up Taylor Swift. Is the prospect of winning another still exciting? Steve Martin (SM): I want to win not only for the glory and the pleasure of defeating the other nominees, but also for the glory and the pleasure of defeating the other nominees. Q: Do you have an acceptance speech planned? SM: I don’t, but I do have a copy of Alison Krauss’ acceptance speech for her last 37 wins. Q: Are you friendly with the other nominees in the bluegrass category? SM: I have met all of them and liked all of them until now. Q: Are there banjo “beefs” similar to those in the rap world? SM: Similar, except we use poison. Q: Most indelible banjo moment in pop culture? SM: They are too not-numerable to name. Q: What sort of expectations/hopes/fears do you have about playing [the Stagecoach Festival]? SM: We have played Bonnaroo, the New Orleans Jazz Festival and the Newport Jazz Festival. That said, I didn’t know I should be worried about playing Stagecoach until just now. Q: And then there's the book [out on Feb. 21]. What was your inspiration, in 140 characters or less? SM: I am very excited about my Twitter book, which is released on February 21, because it ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This interview conducted by Lorraine Ali, originally appeard on the Los Angeles Times blog. We'd like to think HBG Canada for allowing us to repost it here. The Tweets of Steve Martin is now available. ISBN - 10:1455512478 9781455512478 An Oral History of Grunge The Nonfiction Blog is pleased to share this piece from Indigo Bookseller (& all around music nerd) Jordan Ferguson. I'm sure everyone thinks the music of their adolescence is superior to everyone else's, so I can admit to a slight level of bias here. I was 14 years-old in an autoworker commuter town when Nirvana's Nevermind dropped 20 years ago. I was primed and ready for a musical revolution. And yes, it's easy to sneer at the dingy flannel shirts and the Doc Martens, and the unspoken competitions to determine whose hair could get the grimiest. There's no legacy to be found in the current musical landscape, but it doesn't change the fact that grunge was a real moment, arguable the last one in the history of rock music. The success of Seattle inspired similar movements in cities across North America, like Halifax and Hamilton. Even in Amherstburg, Ontario where I grew up, it seemed like everyone had started a band. Why wouldn't we? The underdogs were breaking through, and if it could happen in Seattle, it could happen anywhere. But how did it happen? How did this handful of bands, connected only by a shared locale, capture the imaginations of a generation? This is what Mark Yarm's Everyone Loves Our Town: An Oral History of Grunge. What makes the book successful is right there in the title: inspired by the Legs McNeil and Gillian McCain's punk classic Please Kill Me, it's an oral history, the story told by the people who were there. And it's a story that goes back farther than most people might realize. Many of the musicians who would go on to form Nirvana, Pearl Jam and Soundgarden were jamming around Seattle with each other in the early-to-mid 1980's. The Deep Six compilation album, considered to be the “big bang,” of grunge, came out in in 1986. This is fertile material to wade through, and Yarm, a former editor at Britain's Blender magazine, talks to everybody, not just the members of the most famous bands, but lesser known acts like The Melvins and Tad, as well as bands forgotten by all but the most hardcore of completists like The U-Men and Malfunkshun. It's a fascinating story of egos and drugs, starring a bunch of charming and charismatic musicians, most of whom were woefully unprepared for what the success machine would do to them. For someone who grew up with this music, consuming every magazine article and taping every performance and interview I could find, Yarm's book is a fantastic read. Less concerned with analyzing what it all meant, what the music's success said about the world, Yarm steps into the background and lets these characters, over 200 throughout the book, praise and snipe at each other (Courtney Love is, not surprisingly, heavily demonized throughout). It's sometimes hard to get a bead on where the truth lies, as different people contradict each other multiple times throughout a chapter. But as the saying goes, when the legend becomes fact, print the legend. The benefits of getting older can seem few and far between, friends. But you can always count on the passage of time to bring a nostalgic re-examination of that short moment when the music that mattered to you mattered to everyone, when you wrote bad poetry in spiral-bound notebooks, when it actually felt like you ruled the world. Everybody Loves Our Town comes highly recommended not only for fans who remember the time, but for all fans of musical history. Learn more about the book, and celebrate the music it chronicles, at grungebook.tumblr.com. Those looking to continue their studies can turn to Kurt Cobain's Journals [frequently quoted in Yarm's book], Seattle journalist Charles Cross's Cobain Bio Heavier Than Heaven, the earlier oral history Grunge is Dead, Pearl Jam's recent retrospective Twenty, and the classic documentary The Year Punk Broke, chronicling Nirvana and Sonic Youth's 1991 European tour. Title inspiration, courtesy of Mudhoney: *** Special thanks to Jordan for contributing – and interested readers can see a (long) interview with the author here. This review generously provided by Jordan Ferguson. On August 11, 1973, DJ Clive Campbell played his first gig, a back-to-school party organized by his sister Cindy in the rec room of their building at 1520 Sedgwick Avenue in the Bronx, New York. Campbell, a native Jamaican, incorporated elements of what he saw in the dancehalls of Kingston, including the tradition of “toasting,” where a DJ would talk to the crowd over the music. Campbell had also noticed that the dancers seemed to get more excited by the short instrumental ‘breaks’ found in the bridges of popular funk and soul songs, so he began isolating them and stringing them together in longer sequences. The kids loved the breaks, and the man who became DJ Kool Herc [a riff on his schoolyard nickname of Hercules] christened the dancers break-boys, or b-boys. On August 11, 1973 DJing, MCing and breakdancing combined in one place for the first time, and the culture that became hip-hop was born. So while I might be a little late to the party, I wanted to share with you what I consider a few of the best books on the culture and the music. Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop, edited by Jeff Chang Chang’s other book, the essential Can't Stop Won't Stop has already been deservedly praised in this space (here) as probably the best book on the history of hip-hop, so I wanted to give this lesser known work some exposure. A collection of essays that acknowledges rap is a music, hip-hop is a culture, and looks to educate and inform on the other arts that fall under that umbrella, including graffiti, literature, photography. Most fascinating to me were the essays on hip-hop dance, which are compelling reading for someone who doesn’t know their top-rocking from their footwork, like me. Lots to love here. Check the Technique: Liner Notes for Hip-Hop Junkies, by Brian Coleman Being a fan of rap in the 1980s and 1990s was a somewhat mysterious practice. The artists still weren’t getting any mainstream press, so it was impossible to learn anything about your favourite acts. The most you could do was squint at the production credits on your cassettes, which usually gave you nothing. Coleman’s book succeeds in filling this gap, collecting oral histories on the creation of both classic and, well, not so classic albums from rap’s golden age. The Big Payback: The History of the Business of Hip-Hop, by Dan Charnas How did hip-hop and rap go from the regional and isolated hobby of a passionate few, to a global and more importantly lucrative cultural movement? On one side you have the artists and musicians, Charnas’s book gives the other side, the story of the radio DJs, club promoters, record labels, artist managers and ad men that recognized ignoring hip-hop was leaving money on the table. From how Sprite used hip-hop to snag an NBA sponsorship away from its own parent company Coca Cola, to why 50 Cent is a more visionary businessman than anyone gave him credit for, every story in this book was new to me, and I can think of no higher compliment to give it. Part memoir, part lyrics book, part director’s commentary, Decoded is many things at once, and succeeds at all of them. For a nerd like me, the highlights are the footnotes sprinkled throughout his rhymes. Many might be obvious to fans, but some provided genuine insight to the inside references and wordplay Jay-Z makes in his rhymes. That alone would probably make the book worth a read, but add in the unusual candidness with which he discusses his hustler’s life in Brooklyn and you have not just a memoir but a love letter to the art by one of the best to practice it. The paperback version of Decoded releases in November 2011. Book of Rhymes, by Alan Bradley The more you read books on hip-hop, the more you come to see how political a lot of the scholarship is. That’s all well and good, since hip-hop has historically been the reaction of an oppressed people to the systems that hold them down. But it’s still poetry, and Bradley’s book actually remembers that language and its manipulation is a key component to hip-hop and rap. Breaking down styles of rhythm, wordplay, style and signifying, Bradley lays out what makes the greats so great, and what makes the art so compelling if you really pay attention to the complexity that goes into its creation. … and finally, a book I don’t have my hands on yet, but will quickly get added to my library. Def Jam Recordings: The First 25 Years of the Last Great Record Label In 1984 a party promoter named Russell Simmons was growing tired of the disco-tinged rap that was starting to cross over onto radio and into the clubs; he didn’t think it accurately reflected what was going on in the streets. He liked more aggressive, beat-driven music. Music like ‘It’s Yours,’ a minimalist, pounding track by rapper T La Rock and co-produced by a 21-year-old NYU student named Rick Rubin. When Rubin met Simmons, Def Jam Records went from a vanity label Rubin ran from his dorm room, to the most influential rap label in music history. From LL Cool J to Public Enemy to Kanye West, Def Jam has been integral to the creation of some of the best music the culture’s ever produced, and this slick hardcover from Rizzoli promises to be as beautiful as it is informative. There are others, of course: the dated but still hysterical and super informative Big Book of Rap Lists from the merry pranksters of Ego Trip magazine; public intellectual Michael Eric Dyson has a few books under his belt, including a celebrated biography on the life of Tupac Shakur, Holler If You Hear Me, and the The Anthology of Rap is an admirable resource for those who want to further investigate the work of the great lyricists. Happily, hip-hop didn’t turn out to be a fad after all. If you’re a 26 year old rocker, pushing 27, you may want to consider slowing down on the partying a little bit—that is, if there’s any truth to this myth—the Forever 27 Club—which seems to indicate a need to chill out on the substance ingestion (outside of Cobain, perhaps) before it goes a little too far. The usual suspects on this list are Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, and Kurt Cobain, and sadly, there’s a new member, Amy Winehouse. My colleague Michael Gallagher posted a great blog about Amy’s passing a couple of days ago, which can be found here—I agree with him; of the ‘club members,’ I’ll probably miss Amy’s artistic output most of all. There’s no shortage of books on these compelling personalities – here is a look at some of the best of them. For a look at the idea of the 27s, short stories about all of them, shared in the context of the concept (idea, urban myth, whatever you want to call it), Eric Segalstad has put together a work that highlights this legend in his book The 27s: The Greatest Myth of Rock and Roll. If you care to read about some of these icons individually, here are some of the best biographies out there: While not a book specifically on Brian Jones, True Adventures of the Rolling Stones by Stanley Booth is, I think, the best book on the Rolling Stones—(I know, it’s a bad cover, but it’s a great book). The book’s structure alternates chapter by chapter; one chapter will describe the genesis of the band, and the next will focus on their 1971 US tour. Brian’s life and contributions are covered in great detail; some of the most memorable sections include Booth interviewing Jones’ grieving parents, who are still wondering where it all went wrong. A reliable work where Jones himself is the focus is Brian Jones: the Untold Life and Mysterious Death of a Rock Legend. For the Hendrix fan, the title to check out is Room Full of Mirrors, a meticulously researched biography that tracks Jimi from birth all the way to the end. Another great Hendrix bio is Becoming Jimi Hendrix: From Southern Crossroads to Psychedelic London, the Untold Story of a Musical Genius. There are two schools of thought on biographies: those by the detached outsider (and often these can go the sordid route of the unauthorized and gossipy type), and those by the insider. One of the best Janis Joplin biographies out there is by her sister, Love, Janis. Jim Morrison was the next unfortunate musician to join the club: Stephen Davis’ Jim Morrison: Life, Death, Legend is a definitive biography. This is by the guy who wrote Hammer of the Gods, so you know he knows how to write a rock and roll book. No One Here Gets Out Alive is the other definitive work on Jim Morrison and the Doors. Charles R. Cross’s Heavier than Heaven has become a go-to work for the fan curious about Nirvana. Somewhat controversial, the book does include fictional aspects that does speculate on events where no research was available. Of course, going directly to the source is always a good idea, and Kurt Cobain’s own Journals are no doubt the best look directly into this subject. Cobain Unseen is another informative work, more visual than text based. And now we come sadly, to the newest member of the club. Currently unavailable, but certain to come back in print soon (as well as new works, no doubt), are two books on Amy Winehouse: Amy Winehouse: The Biography and Amy Amy Amy: The Amy Winehouse Story. A biographical documentary is available on DVD: Amy Winehouse: The Girl Done Good: A Documentary Review. Another DVD is available, Amy Winehouse: I Told You I Was Trouble two live performances and a documentary, released shortly after the release of 2006’s fantastic Back to Black album. The fifth day at the 2011 Cisco Ottawa Bluesfest was sadly my last day. Aside from Day 4’s surprise storm and exodus before The Black Keys came on, the week was filled with great music and the most fun I’ve had in a field packed with other people. My body missed the routine meals and not walking in the heat so much, but overall it was well worth it. Day 5 was clearly the busiest day of the festival to that point, all the beer gardens swollen with the thirsty and lineups testing the patience of a saint. This was little a small obstacle to me in my quest for a couple of beers and a decent viewing area for the enchanting Erykah Badu. Families, boys, girls, you name it, packed the second stage area in time for Ms Badu’s 8 PM set time. However, she did not show up in a timely fashion following the announcer’s introduction. By 8:30, the crowd finally grew restless, as her set had to be finished by 9:30 to make sound room for the headliners on the main stage. All was forgiven as Ms Badu and her very capable band quickly locked in a groove with bass so heavy I’m sure the Parliament buildings shook. Over the course of an hour, Badu touched upon most of her catalogue for her first visit to the nation’s capital. Always a classy performer and in possession of great wit and an uncanny ability to engage a crowd, Badu left after an hour with her band still playing and a crowd that quickly realized they would have to wait until her next visit to get more. The Tragically Hip closed Saturday on the main stage with the biggest crowd I’d seen all week. As the final notes from Erykah’s set rang out beside the main stage, Kingston’s favourite sons were firing up “Blow at High Dough” followed by “Grace, Too”. Possibly too eager to begin the festivities, front man Gord Downie shouted out words almost to the point of strain. We decided to venture around the festival grounds to give Downie some time to settle down. The other stages failed to offer anything worth parking ourselves for, so it was back to the Hip who were tearing through “New Orleans Is Sinking” (featuring “Nautical Disaster” in the middle of it). Downie was still doing his Downie thing, but the shouting had subsided. Mark came out as a closet Hip fan so we stayed until the end, making him happy, joining legions of other happy people. A refreshing cool breeze accompanied the summer evening warmth, making it a great night to enjoy the company of beautiful people enjoying live music on day 3 of the 2011 Cisco Ottawa Bluesfest. You may not have heard of Gregg Gillis, a.k.a. Girl Talk, the Pittsburgh mash-up maestro. Mixing hip hop raps over rock, alternative and pop hits, an hour of the man is pop overload. I’d never seen the man but heard his performances were legendary. I was surprised to run into an old friend, one I would have never have expected to be there, who said “It’s not my thing at all, but Girl Talk was the best time last year”. My friend turned out to be right. I’ve been on the fence about the artistic merit of Girl Talk. Many argue he just pushes buttons, but I don’t think it’s quite that easy. The man obviously has quite the ear for mixing songs you’d never think to put together. The songs Girl Talk combines and his manic energy for what he’s creating make for a euphoric atmosphere. Flanked by an elaborate lighting rig and about 50 fans dancing on stage, Gillis dropped 90 minutes of the most fun to be had at this year’s Bluesfest. We heard snippets of Black Sabbath, Kylie Minogue, Ludacris, Beyonce, Michael Jackson, Pixies, Phoenix ... and I could go on and on. It was impossible to stand still, although my friend, unimpressed, did just that. But when the chorus of Nirvana’s “Lithium” came on, the entire place erupted into complete blessed abandon. Shivers went up my spine as thousands of people threw their arms in the air and exclaimed “Amen” or “Yeeeaaaahhh”. The experience was religious. I guarantee anybody at that show will never forget it. Some may want to, but they won’t. After that, things were a similar anticlimactic experience as Day 2. Steve Miller got underway on the main stage and his sound was pretty muffled from our vantage point. Venturing over to the Subway stage, Stephen Marley was paying homage to his father. The field was packed and we stayed for a few songs until growing restless. David Clayton-Thomas of Blood, Sweat & Tears fame was definitely not our thing at that point in the evening, so it was back over to Steve Miller for a few more songs. The sound had greatly improved and “Take The Money and Run” surprisingly inspired clouds of cigar smoke. But the euphoria from earlier in the day waas not to be matched, so it was time to soldier home. So the recent postal strike had more of an impact on my life than originally thought. On the first day of Bluesfest, those who ordered tickets online were forced to suffer through punishingly long lines to pick them up. Thankfully I picked up my tickets before the park even opened, but my buddy Mark begins what will turn out to be a two-hour wait to get in. If you’re in Ottawa to attend any of the Bluesfest, I highly recommend picking up your tickets at one of the offsite outlets, unless you are built with some strong patience and even stronger shoes. We arrived as Edward Sharpe & The Magnetic Zeros were playing. We got to hear them from outside the park and I must say I was impressed with I heard and I’m now inspired to do further research on them. One of the main reasons I’m here is for Oklahoma City’s The Flaming Lips. The Fearless Freaks return this year, relegated to one hour on the second stage. They still bring their full psychedelic carnival presentation, complete with frontman Wayne Coyne, wading through the crowd in a large bubble to start the proceedings. The setlist draws mainly from their most recent albums, other than a detour to the old days via “She Don’t Use Jelly,” the closest the Lips have come to a hit. After a beautiful sunset, loads of balloons, graffiti and a crowd sing-a-long to “Do You Realize?” they’re gone, but have inspired a celebratory start to the 2011 festival. Not exactly continuing this vibe are Seattle boys Soundgarden, who have reformed after 14 years apart. Their tour started last week in Toronto and tonight they close the first day on the main stage, with a solid two hours of heavy hits. I did see them a few times back in the early 90s and tonight I catch the first half of their set (whilst still waiting for Mark to get in). The sound fills the packed field nicely. They seem genuinely enthused about being there, but some spark is missing. I need my celebratory vibe to continue… The party that began with the Flaming Lips concludes in an almost religious form with a funky, frothy and fantastically flashy set courtesy of funk freak Bootsy Collins. Collins slings a mean bass and practically shook the trees from their roots with his frantic funky jams, including revisiting his old days with George Clinton in their Parliament/Funkadelic days. It’s a fantastic way to end Day 1 and even my hips continue to sway long after I’ve departed the park. Spring was like one long episode of Punk’d this year—replaced with a lingering fall. At times I did lose hope summer was coming and we would end up plunged back into the depths of autumn and winter. Fortunately, summer has finally smothered the nation and people are now safe to abandon their extended hibernation. My favourite thing about summer is not the weather. In fact, I’m a pasty Irish guy that wilts in the heat. What I love about summer is the ability to gather outside with a number of like-minded individuals and enjoy some live music. Festivals seem to be popping up out of nowhere, trying to establish their niches and capitalize on the success of Glastonbury, Bonnaroo, Coachella and the like. There are many festivals across Canada over the summer, catering to almost any whim. They’re an inexpensive and fun way to discover new sounds and meet new friends. I’ve made my way to Ottawa for Canada’s biggest music festival, the Cisco Ottawa Bluesfest. For 13 days, Lebreton Flats Park plays amazing host to hundreds of bands spread over several stages. Check out the lineup and performance grid here. If there’s an act you’d like to recommend me seeing, please do! I lived in Ottawa for seven years and watched this event grow slowly and surely into what has become, for me, one of the most anticipated music events of the year. So for the next 5 days, I bring to you the hot and sweat-soaked sounds from the 2011 Cisco Ottawa Bluesfest. Enjoy!

.]]> Hey everyone! By now everyone has at least been through one round of finals this year. So I don't have to mention how stressful they are, but I can give you some tips about what you can do to avoid all that stress you are experiencing. So when you are stress there are a few different routes you can go on, stress eating or stress relieving. If you choose to only read one option, I wont judge, weve all been there before. Stress eating: So for all of you who have walked out of that exam feeling terrible and just thought to yourself, cake would make this all better. I would consider you a stress eater. Now if you choose to solve your stress problems that way, be my guest because it's just another way to deal with your emotions and the frustrations you encounter. So I am going to share my favorite foods to stock up on for finals week. 1. Goldfish Now these don't just have to be cheese flavored, I opt for the chocolate chip and smores flavors most times. But I also like the pretzel ones too! They are just so handy and easy to munch on when you are studying. 2. Chez Mix I love chex mix! It is so easy and it also has so many different flavors and pretzels, wonderful right? 3. Cookies Any cookies will do, but chocolate is my go to. I like to know that after I feel like I cant study any more, there is that little burst of energy waiting for me which tastes good too. 4. Pasta This is one of my favorite dinner type foods to make during finals week. Mainly because it gives you a little time to take a break when you are cooking it. Also those carbs are great for energy and keeping you going during those long nights! 5. Pizza I would choose to have some spare pizzas around mainly because they are so easy to make, and you can just put them in the oven, set a timer, and keep studying! Stress Relieving: So if you are less interested in eating your feelings and more interested in getting rid of that stress the healthy way, here are some tips for you to improve your study habits! 1. Eat breakfast The most important meal of the day, weve all heard that right? Well its true! You need that energy in the morning, especially if you are going to be studying all day! So eat something high in protein to get your body jumpstarted for the day! 2. Exercise I think that it is very important to stay active throughout this stressful week. At times it just gets to be a lot to take on for your body and working out can really help you loosen up and take your mind off of the studying for a little while. 3. Sleep It is so important to make sure that you are sleeping each night. I know that you might be tempted to stay up until midnight to finish that module, but make a realistic cut off time for each night. Trust me, you will be so much more able to study effectively if you give yourself breaks. 4. Go Outside Now that the nice weather is finally back, go outside! It is important to get a little bit of sun, it will make you feel happier too! Also think about all that vitamin D, I'm sure your skin and small intestines will appreciate it! 5. Relax Take a much needed break! Spreading out your study times is really key to remembering information. There is no way that you can retain all that material if you don't take a second to slow down and realize what you are doing. Well, hopefully these tips really help you with finals week! Don't forget about all the food that will be at Usquare! That will help save you some time! Happy Finals! ]]> Courtnee So many of you have seen my journey through my undergraduate education throughout these blogs for the last year and as you have read, its been a fun and long path that I have chosen to take. As many of you pre-med undergraduates know, first comes the MCAT then comes the AMCAS/AACOMAS applications. For those of you just deciding on medical school there are two types of doctors, MD and DO. MD doctors attend allopathic schools and DO doctors attend osteopathic schools. The main differences between these two professions is the focus on the patient. While both professions are focused on curing the patient and accommodating them along the way, there is a significant difference about the views of a DO doctor. A Doctor of Osteopathy (DO) is able to perform many tasks that a MD physician is able to do such as prescribing medications, specializing, performing surgery. However they are specially trained in the musculoskeletal system which is considered manipulative medicine. This is hands on training that teaches students how to examine both the mental and physical body in order to diagnose the patient. If you want to read more I have found this information here:, I have a personal connection with DO programs through the diagnosis of my cousins autism disorder. I have noticed what a difference it makes for people to sit down and listen to the whole story rather than just prescribing medication from one 30 minute appointment. I think that it is important to have a holistic approach to medicine because the patients stories are often a crucial detail that I think can be very easily overlooked. While working in the admissions office at school and volunteering as the receptionist that the Gift of Life Transplant House, I have learned that listening to histories is important. At times there are moments where the people I talk to are nervous and apprehensive about decisions that they will be making, I think that this is an important aspect to consider when determining which path is right for you to go down. Enough about me, and more about the application... So it was supposed to open on May 1st, but then I went to the website and they moved it a week to May 8th. For someone like me who is a strategic planner, this is not a good thing to do at the last minute! Although I am happy that it was moved back because now I can focus more on the essays that I am going to have to complete for the application and I can take my time in receiving my transcripts to use throughout the process. Although I have not seen the application yet, I have been doing my research and there are some significant differences between the MD and DO application services so make sure that you are aware of these when you are getting ready for your year! These applications are open for about a month before you can begin submitting, so I would suggest to do your research and writing before hand in order to get those applications in on time. Most admissions are on a rolling basis so the sooner the better. Also you will have to list each class that you have taken, so you should get some unofficial transcripts for yourself so that you are prepared for when that time comes. I also know that I broke up the application into parts and decided about how many days of the month I would allow myself on a particular section. This is not an application that you want to take lightly people! As for now, this is all the information that I have. Next fall I should have some great insight on the whole application and also maybe some comments about an interview or two (Ill keep my fingers crossed for those). I just have to keep telling myself that I can do it, and you can to! Happy almost last week of classes! Courtnee Ah, it is that time of year again! The sun is high in the sky, shooting photons into the Earth's atmosphere at an alarmingly high rate, the male birds are a hootin' and a hollerin' at the lady birds, and many of the male humans are doing about the same (although it is directed at lady humans, not birds). We are closing out the final weeks of school here at the University of Minnesota Rochester, and things sure are heating up. You would think all of the students are concerned about finals, and you are right. However, there is a good deal of concern about the presentation of our research projects in this upcoming week, especially in my case as I currently have three presentations to work on. However, these are coming along nicely and are great fun to work with. Finals will soon come and go as they always do, but the next event is the great summer. Some people are heading back to their hometowns for this summer, some are heading out to new places (one of my friends is going to Washington D.C. to work in the White House), and some are staying here with me in Rochester. I cannot advise those going to their hometowns and I cannot even hope to imagine what the White House has in store for my friend, but I can advise on summer activities in Rochester. The summer is a lively time here, and is becoming more lively every year. This year there will be the popular and recurring Thursdays on First and Third where vendors come from all over to set up shop in the downtown area every Thursday throughout the summer. This is a wonderful opportunity to see what the community has to offer since the vendors are from every background and come from all over the state while the people attending the event are always great fun to meet and talk to. I, personally, will be spending as much time there as possible. But wait, there's more to Thursdays on First and Third than just vendors! There are also live bands and shows playing in the evening. These can range from an amateur rock band, to a well-known acoustic band, to a performance featuring break-dancing, juggling, and drums. I only got to see a little bit of the last one, but I wish I could have seen the entire performance. Long story short, if you're looking for something to do on a summer Thursday in downtown Rochester, you're not looking anymore.]]> So as you might have seen in previous blogs I was talking about my capstone ideas. For those of you just tuning in, a capstone is like your junior year or senior year at UMR. It is when you take steps to do a program or take courses of interest that will help you prepare for the career you are trying to achieve. For me, my capstone is to take courses at UMR in the fall to finish up my liberal education requirements as well as an internship in a lab and a research project with a faculty member. In the spring I will be doing an internship program in London as well as volunteering at the Ronald McDonald House. Although I did complete all of the required paperwork and additional forms, sadly my capstone was rejected. This was pretty devastating, but once I realized the mistakes that I made, which were minor, it made sense. As a matter of fact, I would like to think of myself as a trailblazer. Through my capstone rejection, I made up a new category that will be used during the review process "conditionally approved" which basically means that I had a small error (I apparently cannot add correctly). This will be used in the future, so it just goes to show that sometimes mistakes are a good thing. It was some easy corrections to make, but it is a very serious issue. So I would suggest taking as much time as possible to review your capstone with everyone before you submit it the first time. I also started my capstone proposal early. I began writing responses to the questions in a word documents in the fall semester of my junior year so that I was ready to complete the proposal. As far as the spring semester goes, it comes up really fast. I would suggest getting your ideas and beginning to answer those questions in the fall so that you don't have to spend so much time cramming in all of the writing and researching at the end. If you have any questions or need any help with making a timeline, let me know! Courtnee Hey everyone! The end of the year is approaching quickly. So I thought it would be good to share with you some of my favorite educational apps that I have on my iPhone. These are also apps that you could probably get on android devices, iPads, or iPods. They come in handy when you are waiting in line for coffee, trying to cram in a few extra study minutes before that exam, or in a situation where you wish you would have brought your notes with you but forgot them. My most used and helpful app is for OneNote. It automatically syncs with my OneNote program on my computer so it is really helpful for me because I use OneNote for basically all my classes since freshman year. I can access all of my notebooks too so it is a great app! Here is the link to get it from the iTunes store, its completely free! I also have an app that is called Evernote. This is a desktop application that you can sync with your device also. You can pull screenshots or sections of webpages into your Evernote on your computer and have access to them at your fingertips. This would be beneficial if you were at the grocery store and wanted to try out a new recipe that you clipped from the web. Here is a link from the iTunes store: Being a UMR student, you all know how much we use the Google applications. So you can get an app for Google Drive. This helps you find your Google Documents easily, I actually used mine the other day when I was buying supplies for the talent show skit that the Rochester Student Association is performing in. (By the way, that event is Tonight 7:30 pm at the Civic Center in the Auditorium, if you don't know the way there follow the balloons in the skyway!) Here is the link to Google Drive: Another app that I use for my personal use and also for my research group that I am involved in is Dropbox. This is an application that you can download from your computer, access on the web, and also access on your personal devices. I keep persona files separate from my research files of course, but for me it functions like an additional portable hard drive. I only keep my current semester files on there, but it automatically syncs when I make changes and goes right on the web. So you don't have to worry if your computer crashes again because that paper will be saved right on the Dropbox and your phone! I also like to use Dropbox to upload the photos that I take with my phone to my computer. Personally I think it is faster than the Photo Stream that my iCloud suggests. The link to that app is: An important app that I use for my classes is Quizlet. This is an online website that allows you to make notecards. You can then access those on your devices and you can sync when you make new notecards. Here is the link to the app: For those of you who follow my blogs, you should remember that I went to Panama last summer. For that trip I found a few medical Spanish and emergency Spanish apps that were really helpful for me. They could also be beneficial in Spanish III here at UMR because it is a course based on healthcare terminology. One was called MediBabble: The other was Emergency Medical Spanish Guide by Mavro: I also used a few apps for my MCAT prep. They were BenchPrep, MCAT Question of the Day, and MCAT Smart Vocab. The last two are self-explanatory, but they are great practice and helpful to keep you on task with studying. I tried to do a few vocab a day and at least one question of the day. They do keep a record of all the previous questions, so you will never run out of practice. As for the BenchPrep, I signed up for a course through the BenchPrep website and then was able to access it from my phone and online. It was really helpful when I wanted to get through a specific topic in a day. Here are the links : BenchPrep- MCAT Question of the Day- MCAT Smart Vocab- One of the most recent apps that I added is called Frommer's. This is the brand of a book that I borrowed from the study abroad coordinator about London. Some great features that I have noticed are the currency converter, a tip calculator, time translator, guide to the city, suggested apps for travelling... and the list goes on! Here is the link to the app (make sure to check to see that the city you are travelling to is included!): Hope these help you as much as they help me! Courtnee ]]> The do-se-do begins here in Rochester. The semester begins to end and everyone realizes they need to figure out where they are living next year. Some students are deciding not to live in this or that house/apartment next year which puts the other roommates in a bind--Do we move, can we afford staying without them and can we find someone else, who should we ask? A series of questions run through our heads as the scrabble to live in the best place for you begins. This will be my third year at UMR. My first year, I lived at 318. I would suggest any new incoming student to consider living here first. One really gets to develop a relationship with those in their class. During your first year at UMR, everyone has the same classes. So, just down the door is another student studying for the same organic chemistry test or if there is a paper due everyone has the paper due at the same time. It's a great environment with helpful RA's for any roommate conflicts. The amenities are wonderful and you don't have to worry about monthly bills and getting them paid on time. This is one thing I really miss. Early in the morning at 318 one can just walk downstairs in pajamas to attend class. Posters and RA's at 318 always keep you updated into what events are happening at UMR. The people that live at 318 are always first to know. The downside is that on campus housing is expensive and at least in my case I was looking to become more independent. I found an apartment called Civic Square that has two bedrooms that worked perfect this year for my roommate and I. It has to be furnished which wasn't a problem for me with my family moving and downsizing. I looked forward to carpet, my own furniture, and a homey feel. The part one doesn't realize is how quiet it can be. My roommate and I have different schedules and work at different times. We stayed here in the summer to take CNA classes at RCTC. It was a great experience as well. The place was very often quiet though. We didn't have random visitors or students knocking on or door for help with homework or just to talk like we had often at 318. The quiet was a blessing, but also kind of lonely at times. It was really nice to get away and work on the hard projects that sophomore year provided. The quiet apartment, gave us a break from campus life. Coming into March though, we decided to pursue other options. With tons of furniture in my name, pots and pans galore, and a closets full of everything I own, I set out to find a different option for my housing for next year. To begin looking is a little bit scary. At first I panicked thinking no one would take me. Then I realized that there were tons of people doing the same thing and trying to fill spots in their own housing situation. Everyone started asking everyone what their plans were. It is amazing to me how much is changing from 2nd to 3rd year in terms of who is living where. I began first by looking people to potentially live in the 2nd bedroom in my apartment. I was really fearful about the move with all the stuff I have. My family is really busy and will not be able to come down to help. But then I had offers to live at other apartments and other homes. A group of four of my friends have a roommate moving out of there five bedroom house. It looks like at this point I am going to go there. Possible negative changes that I will have to face by moving into a new house include sharing a bathroom with two other girls. I also will have a lot longer walk to school and work. Over the summer I will have to help mow the lawn. In the winter, I will have to help clear the snow. There is storage space to myself, but tons that we can share. I may not be able to add my furniture into the house the way I want. There are a lot of opinions in the house that may override my own. Bonuses include the house will not be as quiet and lonely. I will get to live with my friends and build closer friendships. It's cheaper about half the price that I pay to live in the apartment I have now! It's across the street and a block down from more of my friends. I will now have access to cable television. It will feel more homey then an apartment. It has a larger kitchen then I have now. There is a lot of communication between house members. This house in particular makes a point to hear everyone's opinion and talk through any conflicts. There is also one person that will collect and handle the bills which it won't be me anymore. I also will get an experience that I have always wanted. And besides college, when else can I live in one house with four friends? So the adventure continues as people finalize their plans for next year. It is amazing to me how even through this process how much of a family UMR has really become for me. I have had many offers from many people to help me move. They don't care about how long or how much work it will take, they are willing to take a day off to help me get where I need to be. It isn't just a few friend, it includes a list of about 8-10 people that I know that I could possible contact to help me. Some of these people include past roommates, future roommates and good friends. Everyone has been very understanding and trying to help everyone find the best fit for them for next year. Whether it's 318, an apartment or a house, it will all work out and come fall we will be ready to learn. This weekend I went to the Mall of America for the third time in my life. Coming from 3hours the other direction, the Mall is nearly 5 hours away from my home town, making it very difficult for me to go there as a kid. To start this weekend, my aunt and her twin daughters came up to visit me for the whole weekend. Friday night they got up pretty late so we just ate dinner that I made, settled in and got caught up on each other's lives. The next morning we got up early and headed to the mall. It was my third time and the first time for all of them. My twin cousins are 12 so it wasn't abnormal for them not to have been there as they live 5+ hours away, but my aunt is 40, so it was cool to take her to MOA for the first time. They really had no idea how big the mall was, however they did know about Nickelodeon Universe. My aunt bought all day passes to ride rides, but we did go shopping first. When we started, we were overwhelmed and didn't know where to begin. We eventually started walking and found some neat stores. Some of our favorite stores were Garage, Flips, Pac Sun, Harley, and the Peeps Candy Store. After a lot of shopping, we headed to the rides, which were surprisingly quiet and unique. I live fairly close to Great America, so finding unique rides is hard to do. These definitely surprised me. We stayed in Nickelodeon Universe riding rides, shopping and eating until it closed when we went on the adventure to find my car which took significantly longer than expected. Who knew it would be so difficult to locate a car at a mall with parking ramps. We eventually got to my car, then home by 12:30 am, about an hour after expected. The next day we all slept in really late (about time...) then ate breakfast. I gave my family a tour around the skyways and streets of Rochester. It is honestly a pretty unique place and has some pretty cool places, even though Rochester is basically closed on Sundays. After they left, I had to resume the typical college weekend life and clean the apartment, eat some food and avoid homework until the last possible second when I wish I hadn't. Although the weekend flew by, I had so much fun! I have now had my dog Parker for about 3 months. After getting him I kind of had some anxiety about having a dog in college. It turns out, he has not been too much of a nuisance. He only peed and pooped in the house a couple of times! One of the times though, he pooped in his kennel. I got a text from my roommate, Evan, that said, "He s#!+ in his kennel, should I clean it up?" I'm thinking "Yes, yes you should clean it up, how nice of you to even consider doing it." Then he texts me again and says "I only have time to clean one thing, it's either him or the crate." At this point I'm in a full panic. Who cleans one, but not the other? No matter which route he goes, there is still going to be poop in my bedroom. So I took off for home, hoping I could get there before he put the clean dog back in his own feces. When I got there he had given Parker a bath and said that I should watch out when I go into my room because the stink was so awful he was gagging. He also told me that he let Parker out and he wouldn't go to the bathroom so he just took him inside to give him his bath. As he was prepping the tub, Parker proceeded to poop on the floor creating even more of a mess for him to clean up. In the meantime, I went to my room preparing for the worst. I opened the door and a waft of dog crap hit my nostrils. Now it was my turn to keep from puking. Somehow I ended up cleaning it up without any throwing up! Beyond that little episode, Parker has been a really easy dog to care for. He listens well, for the most part, and he doesn't poop inside anymore.]]> If you are one of the students here at UMR that has a passion to help others and give back to the community, then Circle K is the club just for you! I recently found out about Circle K from a friend who told me all of the things that Circle K does. Circle K involves plenty of volunteering opportunities. Circle K meets every other week over at 318 Commons from 7 to 8 PM. Our leader for the club is the one and only Michelle Burgraff. She is an incredible leader and very motivated at getingt the club running. She is dedicated to helping students in the club get as much volunteering experience as possible. Circle K club is also joined by the Kiwanis. They are a bunch of enthusiastic people that have the same outlook as Circle K. This outlook involves giving back to the community and lending a helping hand. The club motto is "Live to Serve, Love to Serve." This is Circle K's first year at UMR and the turnout has been amazing for a club so new to campus! There are about 70 students in the club and a good majority of them are freshman. Anyone can join the club and I guarantee it will be the best choice you ever make! I am so happy that I decided to join the club because it is a life changing, great experience of what it is like to work with others, and a lot of fun. March 14, 2013 was a big day for Circle K because we were inducted into the Rochester Kiwanis Club. Every student in the club got a certificate and made a promise to the Kiwanis's that we will be responsible and great future leaders in the community! Not to be biased, but Circle K is the best club ever and I couldn't be any happier being in a club filled with great people sharing the same passion to help the community. If you have Facebook, head on over, take a look, and don't forget to "Like" it! Coming to college, I expected a lot of things. I had high expectations from the movies or TV shows, making it seem like college would be living the life and having the "college experience." I would make friends and have them for life. Be best friends with my roommate and live happily ever after, be partners in crime and have a maid of honor. We could have Taco Tuesdays and study for tests until all odd hours of the night together. I would finally get away from my annoying little brother and having to walk the dog at the demands of my mom. I can stay up as late as I want and go shopping at my pleasure. However, college isn't a static place where you find one person to be best friends with, or making your schedule completely independent of others. Not everything will work out as planned, but rolling with the punches is what makes the college experience all it's put up to be. I've made a list of six things that have changed this year and how it affected me. Looking back, a lot of this could have brought me down, but finding the positive things has made me enjoy college so much more and appreciate everything that happens. After all, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. 1. Moving to Rochester, MN from Waunakee, WI. This is a pretty obvious change. I gained so much education, many friends, the experience of living in a city. I learned to be independent, saw places of MN I probably would have never seen otherwise and lived in a town that had already changed my life. Although I miss my family, I really do love living here and having such a different experience every single day. The skyways are amazing, the food is different and so readily available, and everything you could possibly need (except my family) is right here. This is nothing like living back home and it's so nice to live something different. I'm not saying it is or isn't something I'll do for the rest of my life, but I'm so glad I got the chance to try it and say I did, and maybe I'll live in the city for part or the rest of my life. 2. Varying my friends. I'm the kind of person who likes to have many friends who like to do a variety of things. Sticking with one group of people may be the best for certain people, but that's just not my thing. I also like to be around positive, active people who treat others respectfully. Surrounding yourself with people like you is the best way to stay happy and motivated in my opinion, so that's what I try to do. When friendships aren't working out, don't force it. Maybe that's just me, but forcing something isn't worth the time, effort or strain. There are plenty of similar people in the world, find them and be yourself. 3. Getting a car. I've always been a fairly do as I please person, especially being as involved as I am. Having as car has allowed me to attend more volunteer events, get groceries easier/on my own and go home when I need to. I wrote a blog about all the benefits of having a car called "Having a Car at School," so check that out for more details. 4. Eating habits. Being able to choose my own food has been super nice for me, as well as made my life generally healthier. I tend to eat things like fruits and vegetables as snacks, rather than pop tarts and rice krispie bars that my mom would buy for my brother. Not that there is anything wrong with occasional junk food, but overall, people really should be eating healthier. And let's be honest, when you go to the doctor, who are you going to trust with your health: the fat doctor who clearly cannot follow their own advice/gives bad advice to begin with, or the fit doctor who knows how to properly maintain themselves? The fit one, obviously. So with that, I want to start being fit and maintaining a healthy life sooner rather than after it is too late and becomes a chore to be healthy. 5. My study habits. In high school, I was the student who showed up to class, paid attention most of the time, did my homework, but that was about the end of school and studying. There was no "studying." When it came to exams, I could work my way through enough of it to pull good grades, especially balanced out with the high homework averages. College completely changed that. Some of the things I do to study at college are completing all of the homework, going to nearly all of the help sessions, going to the necessary JustAsk hours, doing all optional review guides and practice exams, working through problems with friends for complete understanding and re-reading chapters from text books. And when I say I re-read the chapters, that means I read the chapters to begin with, which is more than I did for most classes in high school. Learning how to study in college was rough and a quick learning curve, but definitely is starting to pay off. 6. Careers. I came here determined to be a pediatric neurologist. I was going to go to med school then do 11 years of residency and spend the rest of my life helping kids with neurological disorders. Then I wondered when I could have a family in there, so I changed my path to physician's assistant in neurology. Since then, I've thought about being a surgical first assistant, clinical neurophysiology tech, nurse anesthetist and back to med school. As for now, I'm pretty settled on PA, but I know that can change, and I'm open to the opportunities I'm presented. College isn't easy, and change is always happening, but it is so worth it in the end. I have gained so much here from friends to knowledge to self-understanding. I now know who I am so much better and I think I know more what my priorities are in life. Hope you all had a wonderful and memorable spring break 2013! I was looking forward to this break for quite some time. I bet all of us needed a break from school. Most of us travelled out of the state or stayed in the state but still went places. For me, I had one fun and exciting spring break ever! On early Saturday morning, my family and I headed to the Twin Cities to help my uncle move into his new house. It had just renovated. Now that might not seem fun.... moving boxes and furniture, but for me, if someone needs the help I am more than happy to lend a helping hand. When my family and I got to my uncle's house, there were plenty of people there going in and out of the house already moving things into the truck! We just stepped in and made the process go a bit faster and to take a load off of the movers there. It was such a fun day especially because I had my brother, sister, and cousin there to share a laugh with. We did a lot of moving and we were so happy that the day was warm and sunny! Sunday was the day I was looking forward to the most! We visited the 2013 Auto Show in Minneapolis! I am a huge fan of cars, especially Mercedes Benz, BMW's, Audi's, and the one and only Volkswagen. After a long previous day of moving boxes and furniture, it was a day to relax and not move heavy things. I went to this event with my family and my two baby cousins. We saw many amazing cars like the ones pictured below. When we got tired of looking at cars, we all headed over to Mall of America to do some retail therapy. My spring break was all about catching up on sleep. Best spring break ever! ]]> In yet another example of how the University of Minnesota Rochester is different from any other campus (and there are many examples around), the most competitive sport on campus is Ballroom Dancing. Allow me to re-iterate, the college that I go to has only one sport where students compete against others outside of our University; Ballroom Dancing. While students at other universities are shelling out too much money to go cheer on their division level football, soccer, hockey, or other team, the University of Minnesota Rochester students are sauntering into a cozy ballroom with plush seats to cheer on their friends with countless other friends and fans. I am fortunate enough to be one of the competitors on our team, I have been this fortunate for two years now. I must admit that I enjoy competitive ballroom dancing far more than the football, soccer, hockey, and track that I used to play and watch in high school. In this past month we competed in the annual competition, and we dressed to impress. We donned our flowing gowns, slinky dresses, and gentlemanly tuxedos and paraded onto the dance floor, devoted to the idea of showing our best effort. Let me tell you, we exceeded that effort in almost every dance (I had to learn one of my dances 5 minutes prior to competing). We had couples placing in almost every criteria and even those who did not place did very well. On top of it all, we looked magnificent and had a wonderful time. I had more fun those two days of competition than I had at any of my other sports competitions throughout my entire life. I am a very firm supporter of the UMR Ballroom Team and look forward to the incoming freshmen next year!]]> "You've never truly lived until you have done something for someone who can never repay you." This is a quote that describes my spring break perfectly. Instead of going to lie on a beach or sit at home, I choose to do something with my break; I choose to go on the Students Today Leaders Forever trip. STLF is an organization that was thought up by some UMTC students a few years ago. It is a bus trip that travels through cities volunteering and meets other STLF tours in the destination city. This year the UMR bus traveled through Chicago, IL, Detroit, MI, Canton, OH, Beckley, WV, Knoxville, TN, making our way to Atlanta, GA. We left Friday afternoon making our way to Chicago. There were 38 of us on the bus, not knowing each other very well, but ready to go on the adventure together. In Chicago we slept in a YMCA gym that had lights that didn't shut off. That morning we got up and went to a nature reserve and cleared invasive species. After a few hours of cutting and chopping we got back on the bus to make our way to Detroit. As we traveled through the city you could see that it was a ghost town. Detroit was the most eye opening city we traveled to. We stayed in a church that served us Corn Beef for dinner and breakfast the next morning. We volunteered at a veteran's homeless shelter. That was an amazing experience. Some of us served breakfast and lunch while the rest of us made bags of toiletries and organized some storage areas. One of the men there came up to us and thanked us for going to school and going into the medical field. He told us to keep the nation healthy and keep up our good work. They sent us on our way to Canton, OH with snack bags that had hand written thank you notes. In Canton we got to explore down town which had a really cool art district and an adorable coffee shop that we went to. That night we stayed at another YMCA that had lights that turn off! There, we prepared for our service activity, which was teaching 2nd and 5th graders Junior Achievement. Junior Achievement is about businesses and how they work so being health sciences majors this was a little challenging. When we got there all of the kids were happy to see us and learn about the things we were teaching. I taught a 2nd grade class and it was so fun. I'm glad it was only two hours though! Gained a lot of respect for elementary school teachers! After that we got back on the bus to travel to Beckley, WV! Beckley was the first city we went through that had weather above 40 degrees. It was like summer! We stayed in another church that night. The next morning we did service at a hospice care center doing various tasks. Some worked around the grounds and I worked on a mapping project, mapping the placement of memorial stones. They fed us lunch of Chick-fil-A, macaroni and cheese, and salad. I had never had Chick-fil-A before and it was so good! Then we set off for Knoxville! In Knoxville we got to explore the city and eat dinner. A big group of us ate at Jig and Reel which was a Scottish Pub. It was pretty good! Then went to our housing cite which was a huge church. There was a band practicing there when we got there and they played for us. Then we played Sardines, like reverse hide and seek, in the giant, 4 story church. That morning we were volunteering with Keep America Beautiful cleaning up garbage around the city. In one little area we cleared out 15 bags of garbage! Then we filled on the bus to make our way to Atlanta, GA! In Atlanta we got to stay in hotel which was really nice after sleeping on the ground for a week. The first night we all went to a Waffle House; one of my favorite places ever. The next morning, all 160 of us from the 4 buses went to a park to help there. We all did different jobs, planting trees, building a fence, clearing a pathway, or cutting out invasive species. My friend Erica and I worked on clearing a path to an area that would be used by the local boy scouts. When we were finished we all ate lunch together. That night we had our celebration with the other 3 buses we met in Atlanta. We took the next two days to travel back to Rochester, staying in St. Louis on the way back. Overall, STLF was the greatest experience I have ever had. I have done a lot of volunteering in my day but this has been the best opportunity, by far! This trip helped to open my eyes to many new things and I made 37 new friends out of it! I would totally recommend this trip to anyone that loves to volunteer and wants a little bit of adventure in their spring break! Yeahhhhh buddy!!! ]]> Hi! So as you already know from my previous blog I spent a day over spring break making cookies with my grandma to use for a blog. But what blog is that? Well I can finally reveal the big secret, one of the cookie choices was healthy and the other was a recipe taken from the bag of chocolate chips, a well known Hershey's brand recipe. I set up these two types of cookies in the Admissions Office on Monday March 25th and had everyone that walked through sample one of each cookie and then rank their favorite based on taste. But before I announce the results of the test, lets back up.. So I first found some healthy chocolate chip cookie recipes on Pinterest while browsing one day and thought to myself, that I love cookies and it would be great if I would eat a healthier version so that I wouldn't feel so guilty. So I then proposed the question, do they taste different? In order to answer this question I knew that I would need more than just my opinion, so I decided to make it a test. The healthy recipe was referred to as choice A throughout the testing and the recipe is located here:. Rather than oats I used oat flour, so that it had a smooth texture, and as you can see they didn't look very different after they were baked (which was good because I didn't want people judging based on the ingredients). The Hershey's brand of cookies is located on the back of the bag but also here:. Here is a comparison of the two types of dough, you can definitely tell why one is more yellow (it's a whole extra stick of butter than the first recipe). Then once the cookies were made we froze them to keep them fresh until I would come back to school to have the testing. Then I set them up in the admissions office with some simple instructions: When it was all said and done, the two choices came out dead even. So in conclusion, the healthy cookies do not taste any different than the normally prepared ones, but they are less calories and less content of ingredients. Here is a comparison: Personally I liked the healthier cookies, but that was based on consistency and texture of the cookie as well as the taste. I also like the fact that I would be able to eat about two and not feel terrible about myself! Have any other questions that you would be dying to have tested? Let me know! I'm always up for baking ideas! Courtnee

Crooks Cured by Surgeons Knife (Jul, 1930) This is pretty terrifying, though I suppose it is just a much cruder form of how we use psychiatric drugs today. A few things I noticed: 1. obviously being gay is a disorder. 2. they didn’t say if the prisoners were actually given any choice about their operations. 3. what did they do to the kids? 4. This quote “It points also to the more illuminating truth that if the grandparents, or even the parents, of these men had been given proper medical and surgical treatment for their own glandular abnormalities, their children and their grandchildren would not have offended society…” sounds like Lamarckism. Though according to Wikipedia that theory seems to be making a comeback. 5. Apparently you can tell a criminal by their face. From the pictures in the article that seems to mean “Foreign Looking”. Crooks Cured by Surgeons Knife Here for the first time is the amazing story of how criminals in San Quentin prison, California, are made honest by giving them healthy glands. By H. H. DUNN THE surgeon’s knife and the laboratory test tube have entered the campaign against crime. Experimental researches, carried on over a number of years and beginning to show results in control and reform institutions this summer, indicate that criminal tendencies may be eradicated, development of the criminal averted, and the established criminal restored to normal by medical and surgical treatment. Most of the work which has resulted in this astounding discovery has been done in schools for “backward,” or “wayward, children in San Francisco, and among the inmates of San Quentin prison in California. Looking into the causes of criminal behavior, Dr. Ralph A. Reynolds, of San Francisco, has opened a door which apparently leads not only to the prevention of crime, but to the reformation of the adult criminal. Confirmation of the value of the method of treatment of criminal tendency by surgery and medicine awaits the test of time, but in the five years so far devoted to this work results have been achieved which indicate that the surgeon may take the place of the policeman, the physician that of the judge, and that civilization will prevent rather than punish crime. In the course of these experiments, it was found that a very high percentage of the inmates of the prison were suffering from some abnormal condition of the endocrine or “internally secreting” glands, which empty directly into the blood stream. It was learned that perpetrators of crimes of violence showed disturbance of the thyroid, the twin gland in the front of the neck which regulates growth, while forgers and similar criminals against property were found to have abnormal conditions in the pituitary. This is a pear-shaped body about the size of a bean, lying at the base of the brain. Perverts and degenerates hid certain derangements of the sexual glands under apparently normal exteriors. Working with Dr. L. L. Stanley, San Quentin prison physician, Doctor Reynolds found that beneficial results were obtained, both in physical condition and mental outlook, when the glandular derangements of these prisoners were corrected. Approximately sixty were so treated by operation and by administration of gland extracts. Not one failed to respond to the treatment. THESE results with adults in the penitentiary led to two conclusions, the most important that have been made in the scientific study of crime: First, that the so-called “criminal instinct” may be removed from the minds of men, and women, by the study and treatment of the endocrine-gland systems, in childhood or later. Second, that potential criminality may be eliminated by the treatment of these glands in youth, whenever and wherever children are found to be suffering from such abnormal conditions. In other words, it now seems not only possible, but highly probable, that malsecretion (that is, a secretion which is too large or too small, or chemically unbalanced) of some gland is responsible for the greater part of the crime in the world. “We are beginning to accept the fact that the criminal is not essentially ‘bad’,” said Dr. Reynolds, “but that he merely is a person who shows a departure from what society has established as the ‘normal.’ There is a growing belief among scientists that, in dealing with criminals, too much attention is paid to the mind and the emotions, and too little to the sources from, which the mind and the emotions arise, and by which they are controlled. “On the reasonable assumption that these sources exist in the functions of the body itself, and more specifically in the chemical functions of the body, the next logical step is to find the mechanism which controls the body’s chemical activities. “Evidence is that this mechanism exists in the endocrine glands—the glands of internal secretion, also known as the ‘ductless’ glands, because their cells secrete directly into little blood vessels in the glands, without the aid of ducts. In connection with this reasoning, it appears quite obvious than any unbalanced condition of the chemistry of the body will lead to various and varying forms of unbalance in the mental and emotional outlook, and in the conduct (i. e., behavior) of the person involved. THE work at San Quentin, of which more later, leads logically to a study of the field from which all criminals are drawn—our children. It would be tremendously more advantageous to society to prevent the development of the criminal, than to reform him after he is developed. Aside from the saving to humanity, the economic value to civilization of the salvaging of young lives, and the conversion of young minds to useful occupations, cannot be estimated. “My work has taken me into the medical direction if two institutions, involving about 200 children. In virtually every ‘backward’ or ‘wayward’ child, boy or girl, I have been able to see a physical departure from normal. In many that as yet are neither backward nor wayward, I see evidence of the future development of abnormal conditions in the gland system. There is the child of low, often moronic, mind, who can do good work with his hands, but not with his brain. He is mistrained, and, because his mind does not respond to the training given him, he is called a ‘dumb-bell’ or worse. He goes out into the world unprepared to earn what the world calls an ‘honest living.’ He is drawn into a ‘gang.’ He is involved in a hold-up, or a gang-fight. The law gets him, and he— with an antisocial inclination in his subnormal mind—becomes a criminal. “Such a child should be discovered; his ancestry traced; his physical and mental history recorded; the cause of his mental condition found. He may not be—in fact, he often is not—an obvious ‘gland case,’ but in many, many instances he will be found possessed of an abnormal thyroid or pituitary gland, and back of him will lie a history of ancestors similarly affected. “Now, many children who show visible endocrine disturbances have pleasant types of minds, never brilliant, often below normal; but usually best described as ‘fat and good-natured.’ Their obesity or extreme fatness can be reduced by the correction of their glandular disturbances, and with such reduction comes an increase in industry and ambition. The moronic mind cannot be improved, but it can be given a sound body, and it can be given the training for work with the hands which will enable its possessor to win and maintain an honest place in society. “What we must learn about children is why one becomes a criminal and another does not. Then we must treat the subnormal child—by medicine or by surgery—to restore the chemical balance of the body. This done, we must prepare him, or her, to earn an adequate living, so that the economic incentive to crime—as well as the mental receptivity to criminal ideas— may be removed. By so doing, we shall prevent crime. Indeed, we are so preventing it, in the schools mentioned. “It seems to me essential, as the first step in this program, that orphanages and other schools containing numbers of children whose heredity and early environment may have been unsatisfactory should segregate the problem-children for study and treatment. Certainly, children so cared for could not be harmed, while the opportunity for their improvement is tremendous. “THERE can be no question that in the majority of instances, malsecretion of some one or more of the endocrine glands is responsible for the commission of crime. To return to the experimental work at San Quentin prison, we have traced certain criminal activities directly to certain glands. “The treatment of these glands has resulted, in many instances, in marked mental and physical improvement of the criminal, and, moreover, in what bears every evidence of being the elimination of the tendency to commit crime. “THE principle involved is the restoration of normal mentality through establishment of chemical stability in the body by the treatment of the gland, or glands, involved. “Some time ago, with the cooperation of Doctor Stanley, I undertook to carry through to conclusion a series of studies and treatments of prisoners showing gland disorders. Among these were men with enlargement of the thyroid gland, the very fat, the very thin, the very tall, the very short, those having abnormal hair distribution and growth, and some with subnormal sex glands. “The thyroid group was divided into three classes: “First, those having an excessive growth of the normal cells of the thyroid gland, resulting in a highly active, ‘nervous,’ and emotionally unstable mentality. This condition is known as ‘hyper plasia,’ or overgrowth. “The second class consisted of those having tumorous or lumpy growths of foreign tissue within the thyroid gland. This growth secretes a poisonous substance into the blood stream, resulting in great excitability, emotional instability, increased bodily activity, and, frequently, periods of depression. This condition is known as ‘adenoma.’ ” In the third group were gathered those with ‘colloid goiter;’ that is, an abnormal growth of the thyroid gland, caused by a deposit of supposedly inert material in the gland tissue. As a rule, this condition does not present obvious external symptoms, but it does produce a tendency to obesity. “When we referred to the records of the crimes committed by these men, we found that in approximately seventy percent of the cases those in classifications one and two had committed Crimes of violence; that is, murder, assault with intent to kill, manslaughter, or manslaughter from reckless driving. “EVEN more important than this, we learned that many of these men had records of similar, though lesser, crimes running back to boyhood years. One man showed tendencies to this sort of crime at the age of eight. Had he been given the proper medical and surgical care when a child, his life could have been turned to usefulness, and society would have been saved the labor and expense of protecting itself from his criminal tendency. Records of these three groups of prisoners in general showed that each suffers from an abnormal stimulation of some sort. It appears to be certain that this instability of their mental processes is due solely to maloperation of the thyroid gland. “Five of these men, intractable and guilty of frequent attacks on other prisoners, were given treatment by operation. That is, the hyper-plastic or overdeveloped tissue and the adenomas (gland enlargement) were removed. All have shown marked improvement in behavior, their mental stability has increased, their tendency to impulsive action has been reduced, and it is strongly probable that they will leave the prison with minds more in accord with the processes of civilization, and more amenable to its limitations, than they ever have been. “Another group of prisoners—not thyroid abnormals—was made up of men having a disorder of the pituitary gland, commonly diagnosed as being due to undersecretion of the anterior or forward lobe of this gland. It was learned from the records that more than eighty percent of these cases were ‘sent up’ for crimes of irresponsibility, such as forgery, embezzlement, bad-check passing, and petty theft. “IT IS interesting to note that not one in this ‘pituitary group’ had committed any crime of violence. “In daily life, these are the fat, good-natured men; irresponsible, usually living far beyond their means, always in need of money, and so abnormal in endocrinal condition that they follow the paths of least resistance. Yet they are extremely difficult to arouse to a fighting mood, and in their efforts to fulfill their desires, stop far short of violence of any kind. “We found that, generally speaking, it was possible to modify in a marked degree the personalities of these men, giving them greater seriousness, making them more responsible, and fixing in their minds a stronger sense of their proper attitude toward their fellow men. “We did this by administering what we found to be the proper combination of pituitary and other glandular extracts, which seem to act as catalyzers, or reagents in the distribution of the introduced pituitary substance.” Doctor Reynolds and Doctor Stanley also worked with a third group of prisoners, known as the “dys-gonads” (those having badly developed sex glands), involving two divisions, the homosexuals and the undersexed. Most of these are furtive, secretive, unaggressive, harmless men, but here and there arises one who suddenly becomes vicious, without apparent reason. The majority of them are in prison for crimes of perversion, yet there are thousands of persons of similar type in society, hiding their perversions to such an extent that they never have fallen foul of the law. Treatment of this type by glandular extract produced demonstrable, highly beneficial results, and there is little doubt in the mind of Doctor Reynolds that the pervert and degenerate types may be returned a long way toward normalcy by this artificial restoration of the balance of the sex glands. Thus, the three departments of crime—acts of violence, attacks on property, and perversion—have been given tests of five years and proved to have their source in unbalanced mentality, produced by abnormalities in the glands of internal secretion. Yet both Doctor Reynolds and Doctor Stanley, pioneers and leaders in this study of glandular criminology, insist that the results obtained be regarded only as “experimental.” “OF THE prisoners examined, numbering hundreds, eighty-five percent had a definite history of disorder of the endocrine glands in one or both parents,” continued Doctor Reynolds. “Similar abnormal conditions of these glands were found in grandparents, uncles, aunts, sisters, and brothers of these men. “This points clearly to a powerful hereditary factor at work in disorders of the glands of internal secretion. “It points also to the more illuminating truth that if the grandparents, or even the parents, of these men had been given proper medical and surgical treatment for their own glandular abnormalities, their children and their grandchildren would not have offended society, and would not now be in prison, burdens on that civilization whose rules they have broken because of the upsetting of their endocrinal gland balance. “Beyond this somewhat scientific deduction, we are met squarely with the tremendous economic and sociological fact that if we remove the endocrine abnormalities from the children of today, we shall reduce greatly the crimes against the society of tomorrow. If we restore the balance of the thyroid gland in the throat of little Johnny Jones, thereby calming permanently his childish outbursts of temper, we are in a fair way to prevent a murder. If we train wee Billy Smith’s pituitary glands so that he refrains from stealing his neighbor’s apples, we have curbed the malsecretion of the gland which has put other and older men into prison for embezzlement and forgery. “WE ARE becoming more and more certain that behind every ‘ backward’ and wayward’ child there is a physical reason. Something is wrong with the internal mechanism, the glandular chemistry, of that child’s body. If, through a study of the child’s endocrinal history, and a complete examination of its present condition, we can restore the balance of the gland influence on the child’s mentality, then we can remove what we call, for want of a better term, the ‘tendency to crime.’” So much for the prevention of crime, for the averting, in youth, of a predisposition toward wrongdoing in later years. We have seen what Doctor Reynolds and Doctor Stanley have accomplished with the adult criminal in San Quentin prison. The logical path along which this work must go is the one of restoring to these men such mental balance that they will realize their responsibilities to themselves, to society, and to civilization. Doctor Reynolds believes that this can be done in many instances, but his demand is for time to observe the result of experimental surgical and medical work done on these prisoners. Let Doctor Reynolds speak again: “We have with us another and larger group which has been only touched in this study of glandular balance and control. These are the persons who, we say casually, ‘have criminal faces’; scientifically, they are classified as having the stigmata of degeneration. Their facial abnormalities—from the sight of which the layman judges them to be at least potential criminals—are due to disturbances in growth and development. Endocrinologists, specialists in the study and treatment of endocrine glands, have come to look upon them as glandular subjects, inasmuch as virtually always their ancestry reveals a long and involved history of disarrangement of the glands of internal secretion. “IN THE ancestry of such persons also appear insanity, epilepsy, feeble-mindedness, cataracts early in life, harelip, strabismus (commonly known as cross-eye’), and other defections from the normal, scientifically classified as ‘stigmata.’ Their histories often begin with a parent who, for example, had a pituitary abnormality, from which only other pituitary disarrangements will appear in the children for several generations. Then, quite suddenly, in one of these generations, the offspring will begin to show other defects in development, abnormalities of mind as well as of body. “Often these ‘degenerations’ are not accompanied by any of the recognizable symptoms of gland disorders, and it is only from their histories that the true causes of their conditions, their physical, mental, and moral aberrations, may be obtained. For this reason medical science has been slow to accept the close relationship which undoubtedly exists between the ‘ man with the criminal face’ and glandular disarrangements. “If the earlier stages of gland disorder are diagnosed and treated, much can be accomplished, but when the hereditary process has reached the point— several generations later— of pronounced stigmata of degeneration, segregation of these individuals seems to be the only method of eliminating their spread. Low fecundity and early death combine to wipe out this type, if so isolated that new blood cannot be brought in by marriage. “ALL the types in our penal and corrective institutions, these seem to be the ones whose segregation and confinement is necessary until they die out, in spite of all that has been or can be done for them in the way of effort to restore their mental and physical stability by gland treatment. “In the near future, large groups of prisoners at San Quentin and other penal institutions are to be classified as to the type of crime committed, and then studied as to the glandular disturbance which preponderates in each group. On the determination of the extent to which criminal tendencies can be reduced by restoration of the endocrine gland balance rests the greatest hope of modern society for the prevention of crime in future generations, and the reformation—or, better, the ‘remaking’— of the criminal in this generation.” They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and this doctor obviously had a little knowledge of the endocrine system and the arrogance to run with it. Jesus, this is just as bad as the theory of the four humors. Instead, there are the three glands, which by over- or underactivity define the character of the person. I’m so glad science has found the reason for all of society’s ills. This great research has led to the eradication of our nation’s prisons and led to the total lockstep of today’s peaceful and contented citizens. Look at all the learned doctors that came aboard on this radical research. Thank god I had my Thyroid removed! Who knows how many lives this has saved! One of the most chilling parts of this chilling article: ““We are beginning to accept the fact that the criminal is not essentially ‘bad’,” said Dr. Reynolds, “but that he merely is a person who shows a departure from what society has established as the ‘normal.’ ” If you depart from what’s “normal,” you’ll be medicated and operated on till you conform. If you look at the picture on page 21, second row middle…you can see Adolph Hitler. Check it yourself. Of cousre it figures. I saw the part about male gonads. Just what is the normal size? Are TSA agents at the airports going to be measuring these as a way to spot terrorists? I wouldn’t doubt it. And this sort of baloney is why Alan Turing didn’t live to see “Pac-Man”. (He killed himself after being forced to get estrogen injections to “cure” his homosexuality.) Devak, nah, That mustache was popular mustache at the time. My Grandfather had one until the war. This ranks alongside the Tuskagee experiments, MK Ultra,early radiation experiments for professional arrogance.Sadly it even goes on today look at the over medication of children for a catch all behaviour problem Attention deficit disorder. I wonder if they sterilised a few of these feeble minded inmates in addition. Its like that movie judgement at Nuremberg? They knew the nazi experiments were over the top but they didnt place the same viewpoint to these experiments.

After exhausting all other possibilities, Braves outfielder Matt Diaz is headed for surgery on his right thumb, which is expected to end his 2012 season. Diaz said he had the decision confirmed Monday afternoon by Braves hand specialist Dr. Gary Lourie, who will perform the operation on Wednesday morning. Diaz would need two months to recover before he could swing a bat at full speed, so this effectively ends his season. operation Diaz has had on the same area in a little more than two years, both times to remove splinters he and his doctors believe he got after being stabbed by a palm frond clearing his yard in Lakeland, Fla. back in 2006. Diaz has been on the disabled list since July 21st, after trying to play through pain for the better part of six weeks. An MRI revealed he still had two small foreign bodies in his thumb. The hope was that with rest and antibiotics, the inflammation would subside. Infection hasn’t been a problem, but it never stopped hurting. “I can’t grip a bat,” Diaz said. Diaz said he first found out he was likely headed for surgery last Wednesday. He and his wife Leslee got a babysitter for their three children in case he needed some time to work through the news. “I felt it was going that way because it just wasn’t feeling good,” Diaz said. “Surprisingly a sense of peace overcame me and just kind of ‘At least we’re taking care of it.’” Diaz said he’s confident that the surgery will take care of the problem this time, especially considering he’s not under the gun to get back before the season is out, like he was when he had his first operation in May of 2010. He also takes confidence, he said, because he came back and played 58 games that year and didn’t have a problem with it until it cropped up against this June. was hitting .222 with two home runs and 13 RBIs in 51 games this season for the Braves. He said he takes consolation in knowing his thumb worsened before the July 31 trade deadline, so the Braves could acquire right-handed hitting outfielder Reed Johnson from the Cubs. “I’m glad I hurt it as bad as it did two or three weeks before the trade deadline,” Diaz said. “If I were going through this now and we didn’t get Reed Johnson and Tyler (Pastornicky) wasn’t doing so awesome off the bench, I’d feel more of a sense of almost guilt from not playing. But we’re set with the right-handed hitting outfielder in Reed Johnson who’s done it, been there, and Tyler has proven himself off the bench as an unbelievable young guy to be able to do that.” 119 comments Add your comment billy shears August 14th, 2012 12:08 am hopefully his last game with the braves. JC Boscan III August 14th, 2012 12:14 am Yet another classy comment by a Braves “fan”……….. jimmyt August 14th, 2012 12:39 am Billy, you’re and idiot. Obviously, you can’t fix stupid. Probably voted for Obama too. Kyle August 14th, 2012 12:49 am Irony: Billy, you’re and idiot. Smitty August 14th, 2012 12:53 am I really like what he has done for braves…hope he get well soon Smitty August 14th, 2012 12:55 am Anybody know why blogs bring out all the negative comments in some people Smitty August 14th, 2012 12:56 am Who is obama anyway….just kidding.. I know he is the guy costing me money J-MAN August 14th, 2012 1:05 am Well he is making 2.5 million this season. If Diaz does come back it will have to be at a reduced price. Id give him a Minor League contract and give him a chance t mke the team in ST nex year. But my complaint is why isnt Reed Johnson and David Ross batting against left handed starters. The final game of the Mets and tonights game could have been changed with them in the line up. Also Uggla hasnt hit leftys all season. Kyle August 14th, 2012 1:11 am I think Matty’s career w/ the Bravos is over. Great club house guy, good off the bench but I think he’s done. Diaz headed for surgery, likely out for season – Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) August 14th, 2012 1:27 am [...] Diaz headed for surgery, likely out for seasonAtlanta Journal Constitution (blog)After exhausting all other possibilities, Braves outfielder Matt Diaz is headed for surgery on his right thumb, which is expected to end his 2012 season. Diaz said he had the decision confirmed Monday afternoon by Braves hand specialist Dr. Gary Lourie …and more » [...] Matt Diaz (Braves) — BaseballMoves.com August 14th, 2012 2:00 am [...] Source: ajc.com [...] TexasRose August 14th, 2012 3:14 am is Diaz’s upcoming surgery a reflection of poor surgical technique/care in the first surgery…or just ‘one of those things?’ COOPER August 14th, 2012 3:32 am Why wasn’t the problem taken care of in 2010 when he was disabled the first time. It is time to cut Diaz loose. He certainly isn’t and hasn’t earned his keep. Time to retire Diaz. He may be okay in our minor league system as a coach but as a player let someone else waste their money on him. Retired 6 years too late August 14th, 2012 4:20 am Is this the start of another August like last year? When this team faces left handed piching, Johnson, Ross needs to be in the lineup. Sit Uggla and move Prado to second. Come on Bobby Lite, Left Handed Pitching is shutting this team down. Poor Minor is getting no runs from this predominate lefty hitting line-up. birdpoop August 14th, 2012 4:46 am Does Jim Powell own Liberty Media? Thats the only way he and Don Sutton have jobs;they are the WORST baseball announcers in the country. Diaz headed for surgery, likely out for season FEATURED LINK | Atlanta Braves Dugout Online | Atlanta Braves Blog August 14th, 2012 6:18 am [...] The rest of the article can be found here: Atlanta Braves [...] BRAVES FAN August 14th, 2012 6:28 am best news all day…….no more dplay diaz,good riddance been with braves for 2 years,and done nothing the pics have been revealed………so long sucker BRAVES FAN August 14th, 2012 6:29 am diaz lowe norton kiwanimi wilson hampton worse signings of all time BRAVES FAN August 14th, 2012 6:30 am and of course lowe goes scoreless innings against the rangers last night Gail August 14th, 2012 6:30 am Now a blog contributor criticizes the announcers…seriously? Don Sutton and Jim Powell are fantastic. Not sure which is more annoying…the contributors that criticize the Braves or the blogger that offers a very negative comment about Don Sutton and Jim Powell. If you don’t like it, watch the Braves on TV or better yet, find another team to follow. MikeY August 14th, 2012 6:48 am J-MAN, I absolutely agree w/ you on the match-ups. We will face 4 lefty pitchers in a row, Ross and Pastornicky and Johnson need some starts in there. Has Pastornicky progressed to where he can play LF? Could we start an OF w/ Pastornicky, Johnson, Prado, with Ross at C? I think so. Could help us win. MikeY August 14th, 2012 6:49 am BRAVES FAN: You left out Livan Hernandez. Tampa Gator August 14th, 2012 7:02 am The Nats beat SF 14-2 last night. The Braves are playing for a wildcard spot. Larry August 14th, 2012 7:09 am Dismiss the dimwit and make Diaz the manager. He’s infinitely more intelligent and extremely popular and well respected by the team. Look for Diaz to go into coaching when his career ends….which may be now! alex August 14th, 2012 7:31 am @Larry: spot on, as for “surgical technique ” wizard above, perhaps your lobotomy was botched John w August 14th, 2012 7:57 am I saw the lineup last night and couldn’t believe Reed nor Ross was in it! I’ve tried to give Freddi the benefit of the doubt but I’ve concluded this guy is not a very good manager!!! BravesfaninWis August 14th, 2012 8:05 am The Braves better just focus on the wild card spot now and do everything in their power to not choke that away again. It’s clearly obvious the Braves don’t have what it takes to win this division. They can’t possibly choke away the wild card with the addition of another spot, or could they? At this point I won’t be surprised either way. longtimefan August 14th, 2012 8:20 am That “not very good manager” has guided this Braves team to the fifth best record in MLB with the 16th highest payroll. Only two teams with higher payrolls have better records. If this were a business(which it is), management would be looking to promote him. Let’s not let facts get in the way of opinions. longtimefan August 14th, 2012 8:22 am To Wis Braves “fan”-they make pills for the chronically depressive. KD August 14th, 2012 8:22 am Diaz, a little advice, next time you are doing yard work….WEAR GLOVES todd h August 14th, 2012 8:31 am always loved matt diaz. a real class act and a solid right handed bat against lefties who always give us fits. Let's Go August 14th, 2012 8:31 am Matt’s season was over when the Braves picked up Reed Johnson. Yeah, he could have came back in Sept but I doubt he would have seen much playing time. When he was in the zone he could swing a hot bat but when he wasn’t he looked bad and struck out too much to be an effective pinch hitter. He may get on with someone else next year as a bench player but his days of seeing 2.5 mil a season are over. ijudgenot August 14th, 2012 8:34 am Tonight Hudson pitches. If Fredi follows his pattern of letting Ross catch Hudson then Ross will be in the lineup. However if all that was just BS to give cover for McCann being sat for not hitting then BMac will start again tonight then be rested on Thursday day game. Fredi like Cox takes into consideration the players egos too much at the teams expen Whackado August 14th, 2012 8:37 am Why not bring back Dale Murphy and Bob Horner for the playoff run. Also, look to see if Rico Carty and maybe Sid Bream (Sid for speed on the bases) are available. Giddy up... August 14th, 2012 8:38 am Love bloogers who can’t spell players’ names (Kawakami) and don’t know the facts… We didn’t sign Diaz….the Pirates did… We got him a trade for a low class prospect… Also didn’t sign Wilson- trade with Seattle. I see the Braves Jerk in Wisc doesn’t have anything else better to do. rodney August 14th, 2012 8:39 am jimmy.t is everything Obama fault you must be a redneck. metfan Lou August 14th, 2012 8:39 am I have always been a big fan of Matt and hope he’ll have a big recovery and if the Braves cut him loose I would love to see him in a Met uniform. The mets need an outfielder like him. AAA August 14th, 2012 8:40 am Don’t know why people try to drop political commentary here. It’s a sports blog. Go to Fox News if you want to whine and cry. DeepDiver August 14th, 2012 8:45 am You know that Matt Diaz RAKES RHP. DeepDiver August 14th, 2012 8:45 am You know that Matt Diaz RAKES LHP. #corrections Tucker August 14th, 2012 8:53 am What is the latest count of Braves who are either out for the season or just decided to quit giving it much effort? Speedy Gone zalez August 14th, 2012 8:57 am Have to agree, Jim Powell is SO boring……………….zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz & Sutton needs to retire. Diaz may be a good guy but he’s wasting a roster spot just like Hinske & Wilson, they are all done. Ross & Johnson are great off the bench but then what? Simmons comes back & who do you keep at backup SS, Janish or Tyler? Still need to add a bat, heard they may be looking at Youkilis, which may be a good move that continues into next year, Go Bravos!!!!!!!!!!! JoeBravesFan August 14th, 2012 9:01 am Get well soon, Matty D! I have a feeling this was your last year with the Braves, so thanks for hitting lefties…most of the time! JoeBravesFan August 14th, 2012 9:02 am I think Paul Janish has made Jack Wilson expendable. After his performance, I’d have a hard time letting him go. Get Tyler trained at 2nd, so when Uggla’s contract is up, or he’s traded, we can put Tyler there. Ed August 14th, 2012 9:07 am See all above, and people wonder why free agents won’t consider Atlanta. If I could play there’s no way I would come play for a fan base as stupid as Atlanta has. Plus you have idiots like Mark Bradley, Jeff Shultz writiing their dribble every day. BravesFan August 14th, 2012 9:07 am i am so tired of all these negative “braves fans” who have nothing better to do then air out their lonely lives on the AJC comments. Get well Matty. urban redneck August 14th, 2012 9:11 am who the hell is kiwinimi? and the worse signings “of all time” is a stretch. what about tom glavine, phil neikro and dale murphy? those guys didn’t help us a bit………hope you have your irony boots on. and someone else above is knocking rednecks?? we are not all hardcore conservatives. but that is for another blog. we’re talking baseball. sorry to hear about matty d. it’s not really much of a loss i guess, but he’s a heckuva nice guy. our bench is in trouble. is there anyone to promote from gwinnett to pinch hit? go bravos. PMC August 14th, 2012 9:11 am Good luck Matt D. Hope all goes perfectly with the surgury and you’re back playing ball soon. Thanks for playing as hard as you could for the Braves. PMC August 14th, 2012 9:12 am surgery. Heisenberg August 14th, 2012 9:15 am This is the Braves blog. Take the political comments to the Bookman or Wingfield blogs. Whichever suits your style. Columbus August 14th, 2012 9:18 am Billy, you ARE an idiot. Even if his time is up, thats not how you show respect for a Brave or anyon fr that matter. I bet you voted for Obama too. No Im sorry, I bet you didnt even vote. But thats OK, the rest of us in Georgia did not vote for Obama and he did not win GA and nor will he in 2012. But we will still have you Billy…maybe you will come around. Columbus August 14th, 2012 9:21 am You like that political comment Heisenberg? Politics IS a game brother! Vote for anyone except Obama and America will be much better off…ANYONE! anonymous August 14th, 2012 9:25 am Jim Powell is ok. It’s Don Sutton who is the worst announcer/analyst EVER! ALWAYS brings subject back to himself. ALWAYS brining up old stories that relate to himself, someone he knew or played with, that has nothing to do with Braves baseball. NONSTOP yakking – tv execs. probably tell him to not let their be any silence at all. Sutton is the one turning Powell into a boring turnip. CALL THE DAYUM GAMES! BravesFan August 14th, 2012 9:27 am Columbus, I am sure you are mesmerized daily by Faux News, too. You are a fool, brother!!!! GRAPHITE August 14th, 2012 9:29 am Now children,settle down.It’s going to be alright. Tralfaz August 14th, 2012 9:29 am columbus: see the rules at the top of the page “We talk baseball, other sports, music, movies, BBQ and whatever (except politics or religion)” steve August 14th, 2012 9:31 am 4 lefty’s everynight against lhp is insane no other mlb manager would even consider this Fastball August 14th, 2012 9:33 am I like Diaz and Obama. If you don’t, you better WAKE UP. GRAPHITE August 14th, 2012 9:34 am And to Anonymous…The word is”DADGUM’ as in Coach Bowden dadgum bad call. phil August 14th, 2012 9:34 am Sutton is indeed awful. Hope Diaz recovers well and is ready to go next year, wherever that may be. Have always liked the guy. ragnar danneskjold August 14th, 2012 9:34 am Hope Diaz comes back next year as his old self. Good guy. Yogi Berra August 14th, 2012 9:34 am Love Sutton and Jim… great details to game and storys (past history)are great. Many times I mute TV and turn on Don. ragnar danneskjold August 14th, 2012 9:36 am I disagree with a couple of fellow bloggers – Sutton and Powell are terribly funny. I turn off the television sound to listen to the radio during games. Sonny Jackson August 14th, 2012 9:37 am Get well Matt! He always reminded me of a Jerry Royster type of player who can play almost anywhere on the field… on of my favorites. I for one, hope to see him with the Braves next year. Matt Diaz Lawn Maintenance August 14th, 2012 9:39 am Great. Now I can get some work! Kidding. Diaz is a class act who can rake lefties when healthy. He is a solid defensive outfielder and excellent baserunner, which the Braves obviously are not too concerned about. I hope he makes a full recovery and is given a shot in 2013 with ATL. MD, Reed Johnson make the OF/bench much deeper. We already know Braves struggle against just about any LH pitcher, (except Johan Santana) and need that RH stick for PH and platoon work. I See Clearly Now August 14th, 2012 9:43 am Matt will need a solid 2013 Spring training to make the club and I hope he does it. I like him. I also dislike Sutton’s non-stop gabbing. Just too much, and so glad he doesn’t do the TV telecasts anymore.Chip and Joe are enjoyable on most nights. Let's Go August 14th, 2012 9:46 am Giddy up… @ 8:38am Not that I’m disagreeing with you about fan is Wis but the Braves did resign Jack Wilson during the off season, 1mil for 1 year. He was granted free agency in Oct and the Braves resigned him in Jan. Jack is another player like Diaz who won’t be around anymore after this season and could possibly be given his out right release once healthy. I see Paul Janish being the Braves back-up infielder for the next couple of years. jc August 14th, 2012 9:47 am Fastball you must have got hit in the head with a fastball. you the one that needs to Wake Up! Get better soon Diaz but I believe your days in Atlanta are over. Good luck. Nevada Roy August 14th, 2012 9:59 am Thank you Matt but you are non-tendered for 2013. Pippa's hiney August 14th, 2012 10:03 am Never understood why baseball has the dumbest fans. Billy Shears August 14th, 2012 10:07 am Hey guys! Just wanted to drop a line and let you all know that I am dumb as a rock. Thanks Billy Shears August 14th, 2012 10:08 am Just letting ya’ll know that I am in fact dumb Matt Diaz to undergo season-ending thumb surgery | HardballTalk August 14th, 2012 10:16 am [...] told Carroll Rogers of the Atlanta Journal Constitution that “we’ve given it pretty much every way to rest [...] Get well, Matt! August 14th, 2012 10:18 am Real Braves fans appreciate everything Matt Diaz has done. He’s been one of my favorites for the last few years, and I wish him a speedy recovery that’s as painless as possible! HE, unlike many of these mean-spirited commenters, is a positive, unselfish and high-quality person, and he’s about 1,000 times more talented than all of you blasting him. We miss you, Matty D! JM August 14th, 2012 10:23 am His Braves’ career is over. His contract is up and they will sign Johnson. Marc Schneider August 14th, 2012 10:24 am “Obviously, you can’t fix stupid. Probably voted for Obama too.” Thanks, douchebag, we needed your insightful political comment. I’m sure you get all your news from the geniuses at Fox-it’s great, you don’t even need to think or, for that matter, even have a brain. JM August 14th, 2012 10:25 am And, after this year, Hinske is likely gone too. Terry Forster August 14th, 2012 10:25 am I’ve been saying how lame Don Sutton and Jim Powell are for two years. They way they make chessy jokes and always yuck it up over them… annoying. Ben Ingram should be the primary play by play guy. MMMmmmmm.. chesseburgers. Ken Stallings August 14th, 2012 10:29 am Had absolutely no idea that palm fronds could be so dangerous! Note to Matt: next time when clearing palm fronds, where industrial strength leather work gloves! Ken Stallings August 14th, 2012 10:30 am … “wear industrial strength leather work gloves!” ERRR! jc August 14th, 2012 10:43 am Marc keep believe the lies from liberal media, proves u don’t have a brain. Go Braves. Wendell miller August 14th, 2012 10:44 am Folks, I believe that Matt signed a 2 year 2.5 million contract with the Pirates and was not making that amount in this the second year of the contract. One thing I can say about the man is that he has always given his all, built others up and has been a great addition to the clubhouse. I bet Santana would like him to be a Met next year. In any event I hope the best for our Braves and Matt Diaz. Yogi Berra August 14th, 2012 10:53 am Diaz contract this year is 2 million, Pirates paid some of his salary last year. He will be free agent at season end. Yogi Berra August 14th, 2012 10:56 am Wendell it was 2 year 4.5 million with Pirates. All contracts can be found at “cots contracts.com” with all teams. Gary August 14th, 2012 10:57 am How many teams has stultz been released or traded from……..and why cant the hitters take some pitches…. make the pitcher work………. Fragile Bob Horner August 14th, 2012 11:02 am I am available for pinch hitting duty…..and buffet duty as well. Brave New World August 14th, 2012 11:11 am Hope Matt’s surgery goes well. Wendell miller August 14th, 2012 11:19 am I stand corrected, folks. about the money. Overall, I think Matt has been a good addition and hope all works out surgery wise and otherwise for him. He even seems to have a great attitude and his head on his shoulders right and will land on his feet somewhere good, if not with us. Well, let’s go catch the Nationals and win this thing! crackbaby August 14th, 2012 11:20 am Matty Diaz – many of us hope a full and speedy recovery is on the way. MD is a streaky hitter but when he’s on, it’s fun to watch. His outfield play always made me uncomfortable (although it has improved). Not sure when it will happen, but sooner or later Costanza is going to be a contributor on the Braves. Brings energy and speed and the club just wins when he’s in the game. Heisenberg August 14th, 2012 12:04 pm I have always respected the way Diaz carries himself but the business part of MLB makes me think this could be it for his Braves tenure. He is most likely looking at a minor league deal for wherever he goes next year. As far as the yard work goes, all pro athletes take note and hire someone. Even the lowest paid pro baseball player can afford that. Werth August 14th, 2012 12:54 pm Obama may not win dumb redneck Ga but most of the country is smarter than that. Obama 2012!!! Romney is a fraudulent disaster. Rotunda Shaquonda Obama August 14th, 2012 1:18 pm Matt Diaz=Joe Shlabotnik. iliketacosson2 August 14th, 2012 1:18 pm Great player of the bench…. hopefully he can recover fast Boo Hoo August 14th, 2012 1:26 pm That’s why Wren traded for Johnson………sooooooooo what is the big deal???Johnson is a better hitter than Diaz anyway! Jack off Team August 14th, 2012 1:30 pm It looks as though Jack Wilson will be designated for assignment when Simmons is ready…….Good Bye Jack! Matty Ice August 14th, 2012 1:32 pm Maybe the Falcons can get Diaz……..he throws the ball better anyway! Fastball August 14th, 2012 1:43 pm jc…really thought I’d get beat up over my comment, but so far only you. Thank you though. snowman August 14th, 2012 2:05 pm For those of you who don’t like Jim Powell and Don Sutton, try listening to some of the other team’s announcers on XM radio. Then see what you think. Ken Stallings August 14th, 2012 2:06 pm Yes, because adding over $7 trillion to the national debt in less than four years is such an economic success that I can easily see how turning to a different philosophy would constitute a “disaster.” Oh yes, the refrain is sure to come in reply, “It’s Bush’s fault!” P Rose August 14th, 2012 2:07 pm :=I Morris Code August 14th, 2012 2:16 pm Wow, I didn’t know we were allowed to talk politics now. O-B-A-M-A 2012. Beat Mittens and Paul. Braves look to Hudson for another “W” after an “L” | Atlanta Braves August 14th, 2012 2:26 pm [...] other late night news in case you missed it, about Matt Diaz being out for the rest of the season in all likelihood, now that he’s facing surgery on his thumb. And wasn’t that Derek Lowe I saw [...] Mark (another one) August 14th, 2012 2:50 pm There’s a lot of crap posted in all the blogs. Diaz played the game with respect for it and the fans. He has always given everything he had, and I respect his efforts. He has been fun to watch, especially against the Marlins. My hope is the surgery works and the Braves give Diaz a chance to earn a roster spot next year. Someone who can fill in and pinch hit is always valuable. He knows there are no guarantees but that’s the way he has lived most of his career. Best of luck with the surgery and get well soon. Lobosolo August 14th, 2012 2:53 pm Larry, hook up with your brethren alexis and take a big old pull on one of his sugar binkies… You are hands down the bitterest crybaby to ever come down the pike… I’ve come to believe that you weren’t really as great a player as you claim… anyone who says they played at as high a level as you do, and still show such pathetic ignorance of the game, is nothing but a professional delusionist… Why don’t you just take your incessant whining and go root for your own fantasy team…. God, what a total crybaby… Ralph August 14th, 2012 3:43 pm When they traded for Reed Johnson that was the end of the season for Diaz, with or without surgery. Atlanta Braves Links of the Day For August 14, 2012 | Atlanta Braves Dugout Online | Atlanta Braves Blog August 14th, 2012 3:47 pm [...] Diaz headed for surgery, likely out for season [...] Bro August 14th, 2012 4:07 pm Diaz’s problem with his thumb should have been taken care of last year or at least the first of this year. If you have a bad thumb, you can not grip the bat-thus you can not hit. Why do players continue to play hurt and why do stupid managers keep trying to play injured players. It never works out for the good–except for Kirk Gibson. Braves brought B-Mac back early last year and lost a chance for the playoffs because he could not swing the bat–doing the same thing with this year with his shoulder problem. A healthy Ross is much better than an injured B-Mac. kbb August 14th, 2012 4:15 pm Braves and thUGA fans will find a way to interject Obama into every blog. tim August 14th, 2012 4:29 pm best of luck matty, this braves fan hopes he can come back next year and be part of the team. guys like he and hinske are important parts of the ball club as pinch hitters and able to give starters a day off. from what I have read they are good guys in the locker room as well. Pro sports could use more Matt Diaz’s Heywood Jablomie August 14th, 2012 5:47 pm To all the Sutton haters….it could be worse. We could be listening to Tim “Never Shuts Up” McCarver call games…. Good luck Diaz. Thanks for everything… bostonbravo August 14th, 2012 6:19 pm Jablomie …absolutely correct…the horror of McCarver should shut Chip, Joe, Don haters everywhere. J.C.L. August 14th, 2012 8:29 pm Marc Scheinder, have you always been an idiot or did you have to practice at it ? You could surely give lessons now. Go back to sleep until after election day and quit wasting our time with your idiotic comments. Hammond August 14th, 2012 8:55 pm Who gives a rat’s rear about the election neither can throw a curve ball much less hit a curve ball I love baseball I hate politics Go Braves Mr. Dawg August 14th, 2012 10:12 pm Ya gottta respect those pond fronds, man, They fight back. Kat August 14th, 2012 10:34 pm You are criticizing others and you use the term “bloogers?” JASon August 14th, 2012 11:43 pm I have a serious f-ing question. Why the f is matt diaz on this team? seriously. Its ridiculous acquisitions such as these that make me hate the braves. Dick Cheney August 14th, 2012 11:48 pm The last time my party was in the White House the real estate market totally collapsed and it brought the nation to almost a complete economic/financial failure. But that was Clinton’s fault. icons design November 2nd, 2012 10:06 pm I apologise, but, in my opinion, you are not right. I am assured. I can defend the position. Write to me in PM, we will communicate. HANDICAPPING RIGHT HAND HITTING OUTFIELDERS | SD Yankee Report January 30th, 2013 12:23 am [...] in 2012 were partly related to a thumb injury that plagued him for a good chunk of the season. He eventually had surgery in August, with the prognosis being that he would need two months to recover. He should be fine [...]

Morgan face-to-face: 58-42 to Coalition; Seat of the week: Eden-Monaro The. Categories: Federal Election 2013, Federal Politics 2010- It was not only less affluent -parts of the North Shore still had septic tanks in the early 70s. Until about 15 – 20 years ago, the Pyrmont area of inner Sydney was not connected either – it just flowed untreated into Sydney Harbour. A massive sewerage infrastructure had to be put in to support the recent massive development. by blackburnpseph on May 26, 2012 at 9:57 am premature encapsulation then by The Finnigans on May 26, 2012 at 9:58 am Zoomster @ 2495 Probably quite true. Best to go equipped with plenty of water and fuel, a satellite phone, and good car repair skills. by blackburnpseph on May 26, 2012 at 9:59 am Caaaaaaaaaaa-ney…. Labor is guilty of “Politics With Intent To Govern”. It’s apparently a very serious offence, a clear violation of the Carney “Labor Is Always Bad and Grubby” Act, 2006 (as amended 2007, 2010 and just about every weekend thereafter). He dismisses over three hundred pieces of legislation that Labor wanted, balancing them against one or two they they to agree with the Independents to pass so they could get all the other stuff through. He tells us that Slipper is her problem. He omits to tell us that if Abbott had won the election, Slipper would have remained the Coalition’s problem. It’s all “problems” to Carney. The achievements of government under a hung parliament are faffed-off by the patrician rose-water sniffer as merely some kinds of incidental, illusory saving graces, that are opposed, weakly, to the enormity and infamy of passing watered down poker machine legislation. In case Shaun didn’t notice: Wilkie is better disposed to the government nowadays. The Clubs are quieter. The Labor back bench is more settled. The poker machine legislation passed the house last week (where the old version would not have passed the house in any week). Gilliard is still PM. The government is still in government. The Carbon Tax is about to start showing the punters that the world isn’t going to go up in a puff of soot…. one is reminded of a herd of BISONS. The downside? The polls are bad. Carney, in his elegant, mannered way, is the same as the Coalition, their urgers at News and the bogan shock jocks with their rednecked caller mates. He just can’t get over the fact that as a government, this government has governed, and governed pretty effectively. The cock-ups that usually remain behind closed doors have admittedly been made more public (aided by a media that regards paying prostitutes and trawling through Otto bins as a noble enterprise). Cock-ups, there have been, of course, but it is wrong for Carney to dismiss the vast body of solid legislation and governance as mere asides to an imagined main game of dysfunction and …. oh, the horror! …. political deal making. Politicians do politics. They do deals. They govern in the best way they can, with the cards they are dealt, not the cards that previous governments were dealt. Carney’s main gripe (although he’d never admit it) is the same as that of the most rednecked caller to the Hadley show: he’s a sore loser. And he’s worried that things are going to get better. As Megalogenis puts it: why would he be wailing so loud now, if he was so sure of victory in just a few short monhs? by Bushfire Bill on May 26, 2012 at 10:01 am Jackol @ 1.22am And at 9.55am, funnily enough the spelling is corrected but nor the error about “minister” is still there. Is the SMH making a challenge for the “Alan Kohler never-let-the-facts-stand-in-the-way-of-a-good-yarn Memorial Award”? Either quality control is very poor or the SMH is peddling a lie with a political agenda. With a poor quality product like this, little wonder the FXJ stock price is wallowing at all time lows by Laocoon on May 26, 2012 at 10:02 am My family (incl me and sister) migrated here from Holland in ’57. If there is work grab it, don’t sit and whyne that it is far away! by political animal on May 26, 2012 at 10:02 am Musiekemp: Sorry for your loss. I recently watched an uncle die in exactly the same way. I was comforted by the fact that he died peacefully and pain free. by confessions on May 26, 2012 at 10:02 am Muskiemp, Condolences to you and your family. by fiona on May 26, 2012 at 10:04 am Victoria North Korea ..or so we are told. But your point is valid, there is a pervading cynicism toward our political leaders – it could be the pervasiveness of media, it could be the blurring of ideological lines (I would exempt the US fromtaht category), it could be the ‘professionalisation’ of a political caste. Possibly, as we are allmore educated, we are all more sceptical – the role of political parties in defining identity and their bases have also shrunk. by blackburnpseph on May 26, 2012 at 10:05 am Listening to SEN sports radio. Dr Turf who is a commentator and identity in Melbourne said that News Ltd will be shedding 400 jobs Australia wide. He said this is huge, but does not believe it will be reported extensiely. by victoria on May 26, 2012 at 10:06 am Muskiemp My condolences. It was good your Mother had her family with her. by Puff, the Magic Dragon. on May 26, 2012 at 10:06 am I’ve been through that with my own Mum, Muskiemp. It’s a shattering experience for those who sit and wait, but like yours, my mother’s passing was peaceful. She was 90. Many condolences. by Bushfire Bill on May 26, 2012 at 10:08 am Good Morning Thay GetUp! Pokie Advert by guytaur on May 26, 2012 at 10:08 am Did it? I completely missed that. by confessions on May 26, 2012 at 10:09 am Muskiemp, my condolences to you and fam. by political animal on May 26, 2012 at 10:09 am BB @ 2450 A brilliant little slice of the utterly transformative potential of the NBN. There simply is no excuse for not being on board with it. The cost is peanuts compared to some of the things we spend billions on. We can’t know what the new industries that will be developed thanks to a universal high speed communications system will be any more than someone in the mid 1800s could have predicted what would come of universal electricity networks, but we can be certain that it will be at the centre of our lives and economy in the decades to come. by ratsak on May 26, 2012 at 10:09 am Political Animal, Congratulations to the parents, and to all interested parties! And thank you for reminding me about “The Outcasts of Foolgarah” – I must hunt up a copy and reread. BB @ 2450, Your “guru” customer sounds as though 150 years ago he would have been an ardent supporter of the Locomotive Acts: After all, those demned new-fangled contraptions don’t have any real future, hrrrumph. by fiona on May 26, 2012 at 10:11 am Muskiemp Condolences to you and yours by victoria on May 26, 2012 at 10:11 am Yes it was good that Mother did have her Daughter, Son grand children and great grand children at various times during the weekend. One of her grand sons was at her bedside, keeping vigilance in the early hours of Tuesday morning, when she dyed. by Muskiemp on May 26, 2012 at 10:12 am Last week I mentioned bus services that had been cut by Ballieu in my locality. 10.00 news reported that my local state Member together with residents are walking the route of one of the bus services cut this morning in protest. They want fallieu to reinstate these services. As an aside, the services have been cut in Labor stronghold areas. by victoria on May 26, 2012 at 10:14 am Muskiekemp We all die eventually. The best we can hope for is to go peacefully. So your mother managed the best possible. May we all be so lucky. My Condolences to you and yours. by guytaur on May 26, 2012 at 10:15 am Muskiemp My best wishes to you at a difficult time – take care! by MTBW on May 26, 2012 at 10:16 am Talking about dunnies. I grew up in the remote outback where the norm was an iron structure over a deep pit. At the rail siding at Abminga (SA) there was a hotel which sported a six-seater dunny (unisex at that) and I remember as a child imagining all six seats being occupied and what the conversation might be! In Alice Springs there was the night cart system and it could be quite amusing to see someone come scurrying out of the dunny when the nightcart pulled up to change the pan, or to hear the tales of those visitors who didn’t know the routine and were caught by a blast of air on the bare bum as the pan was whipped out from under them. In Darwin, there were the ‘flaming furies’ that were set alight every sunday evening. Lines and lines of huffing and puffing as the plumes of black smoke filled the air, and the long wait for the dunny seat to cool down enough afterwards. by janice2 on May 26, 2012 at 10:17 am Further to my earlier comment that 400 jobs would go in News ltd, Dr Turf said that newspaper circulation is taken a huge nose dive and will continue to do so. Said that 400 staff is a significant amount of people. If News ltd is going down this path, what hope does fairfax have. by victoria on May 26, 2012 at 10:18 am Grrrrrr…….son has decided to play football today, against medico advice!!!! by victoria on May 26, 2012 at 10:19 am I recall what we used to call, as kids, ‘The shit can man.’ by Boerwar on May 26, 2012 at 10:21 am victoria Fairfax has more hope than NewsLtd. Fairfax has always been for quality. It is quality that will survive. Just look at Crikey. Quality people are willing to pay for. So it will be for Fairfax. So it will not be for News Corp papers tabloid papers world wide. by guytaur on May 26, 2012 at 10:22 am guytaur Fairfax is losing more money than News. The herald Sun is this best selling paper here in Vic, purely because of its sports reportage. The Age comes nowhere close to the Herald sun by victoria on May 26, 2012 at 10:24 am Muskiemp My condolences. It can be hard to do but, if my similar experience of sitting by Mum for the same time is anything to go by, it is a good thing to do – for your Mum and also for yourself and family. Best wishes over the next little while. by Boerwar on May 26, 2012 at 10:24 am Perhaps the news ltd staff can seek what with Ms Gina. Would save her the trouble of needing to use all the visas by victoria on May 26, 2012 at 10:26 am A recent article – which I linked to here – outlined that the NBN would more than cover its costs threefold. Once, by the improvement to health services. (One of the issues which comes up every year when local health users are surveyed is the need for transport and the cost of it. Interestingly, the conversation is shifting towards how the NBN can replace transport. And that’s only one area in which there’ll be savings to health). Twice, by its ability to monitor, in real time, energy usage. At present, energy generation (as I understand it) is largely predictive – they THINK there’ll be an increase in demand, so they fire up the generators. They THINK demand is slowing, so they close them down. Real time monitoring of energy usage will smooth out the problems this creates. Thirdly, by replacing the copper network, which is getting increasingly more expensive to maintain as it ages. And that’s without considering: Telecommuting – if even 5% of our present workforce telecommuted (even part time) that would create huge savings on road maitenance, fuel emissions etc etc. Education – again, if students can access classes remotely, this would see fewer buses on the roads (as students wouldn’t have to change schools to access their curriculum needs), fewer teachers (sorry. But it would save money), wider curriculum offerings to students (and thus a higher likelihood of them taking up courses at a higher level) etc etc. And other savings: for example, we’re currently setting up a small business, based on my husband designing and building motorhomes from scratch. To do this, he uses engines and gearboxes retrieved from wrecked cars bought at auction. To attend an auction, he has to drive to Melbourne (7 hour round trip) and there’s no guarantee that he will be able to purchase the required car if he does so. With the NBN, he doesn’t have to go anywhere – and he can access auctions not just in Melbourne but throughout Australia. by zoomster on May 26, 2012 at 10:26 am Victoria,these bus services were reorgansied because of the opening of the South Morang train extension – promised if you recall by the previous government in 1999 – and only brought on by them close to the 2010 election. However, that is not to say that lots have been inconvenienced by the withdrawal of the bus services. Both sides are guilty for losing the plot on service extension. Except that the ALP built a tram extension to Vermont South that very few people seem to use. by blackburnpseph on May 26, 2012 at 10:27 am ‘The Australian’ continues its war against the AGW today. It is on the attack against the ABC (and the BBC – as you would) for getting AGW wRONg. This is done with a complete lack of any sense of irony. The Deltoid blog side now has over 80 detailed examples of ‘The Australian’s’ war on science. by Boerwar on May 26, 2012 at 10:28 am Phillip Hudson outlines some key dates: A leadership change between May and August would be lunacy and he’s included that speculation to fit the Herald Sun’s agenda. End of October to November would be the ideal time by spur212 on May 26, 2012 at 10:28 am oops what – work by victoria on May 26, 2012 at 10:28 am Death should be a happy occasion. i told my family i want plenty of singing at my funerals. Happy, joyful, soulful or sad songs, i dont care. he he he, i am dead so why should i care. The sufferings or pain to death, if any, that’s the sad part. by The Finnigans on May 26, 2012 at 10:28 am After reading the editorial yesterday I regret signing up again. I wont be fooled twice. by Ian on May 26, 2012 at 10:29 am victoria The Age needs to remember it is a quality Newspaper and it does not have the rivers of gold anymore. The Herald Sun sell as you say as a sports paper that has some news. The Age needs to shed old generation journos and go with new vibrant ones willing to change with the new world. That means no Grattan and others writing opinion pieces that are basically a load of BS and most know it. Instead they need to return to quality journalism. This way they will survive. Their circulation will be greatly reduced but they have a bad business model trying for a mass market. Those days for the Age are gone. Those readers are on the internet getting their news. They have to do similar to Crikey and have good quality journalism people are willing to pay for. by guytaur on May 26, 2012 at 10:29 am janice2 Apparently the unisex multi seat dunny was a feature of the French court at Versailles. Parties of men and women would decamp together after meals. Interesting to imagine all those expensively dressed exquisites in all their finery spending quality time together!!! by zoomster on May 26, 2012 at 10:30 am Bbp It is not just services in the South Morang area. Services in Greensborough have been cut. I have spoken to people directly involved with the new South Morang station. One word bedlam by victoria on May 26, 2012 at 10:31 am The snowy and tehyfro scheme was built by the italians and tne polish, even then some born aust. Refused togo there by my say on May 26, 2012 at 10:31 am Ian I got a subscription to Crikey this time around, and I regret it too by victoria on May 26, 2012 at 10:31 am Highs and lows for PBers today. Congratulations PA for your new addition. Commiserations Mukiemp for your sad loss – although a tremendous innings and a life and lifetime of memories to be celebrated. Another topic. HELP!! Any PBer electricians? Power has been out from yesterday arvo (lucky you lot not having to put with me) and finally been restored. But no power points on one side of the house functioning. Power company says bad luck, we don’t fix those. Your expense, although demarcatingly?? if said outage caused an appliance to be fried that was connected to one of those power points then a claim could be made to replace the appliances at the power company’s expense. Questions: Would it be a blown fuse? if so, is it possible to fix it without the expense of an electrician? or is that illegal? by kezza2 on May 26, 2012 at 10:32 am Kezza2 My son is an apprentice electrician, but he has gone out now to play footy. So I cant ask him for advice. I am so mad with him. Doctor said he was not to play following accident yesterday where he got whiplash. by victoria on May 26, 2012 at 10:35 am Finn—I attended funeral of someone who had been an employee, She didn’t quite make 60 but decreed that after the funeral there would be a birthday party so we ate birthday cake and sang Happy Birthday in the funeral parlor by political animal on May 26, 2012 at 10:36 am Ian Crikey remains quality. I want it to survive. I have many problems with it. However it is still up there at the top of the Pyramid in terms of quality. Much more informative and accurate than most publications available. I hope you have told Crikey your concerns. Given the resource Crikey has I think it does a good job. by guytaur on May 26, 2012 at 10:36 am The Mining Industry is an export industry, almost 100%. So why it hasnt complained & jumping up & down about the high AUD. #justasking by The Finnigans on May 26, 2012 at 10:37 am Dunny man Shit can man Night soil man … and there’s my great-grandmother’s euphemism: the honey cart man. by fiona on May 26, 2012 at 10:37 am spur212 post @ 533 by the dates newstld is giving , its all over for Abbott/newsltd after july 1 by Meguire Bob on May 26, 2012 at 10:38 am Abbott’s gone once the price on carbon is in place and it’s entrenched for a couple of months regardless of whether he becomes PM or not. Don’t confuse that with the ALP will win the election if they get past July 1st. The public’s view of Gillard is very firm now and I fail to see how the PM’s going to turn it round from here. For a long time, I thought the PM would be able to do it, but now I know it’s too late. Needed clean air between April and July. Not her fault, but it’s the way it goes. by spur212 on May 26, 2012 at 10:38 am

Sponsor Victoria County History Publication A History of the County of Buckingham: Volume 2 Author William Page (editor) Year published 1908 Pages 260-267 Annotate Comment on this articleDouble click anywhere on the text to add an annotation in-line Citation Show another format: BHO MLA Turabian Chicago MARC21 Wikipedia 'Parishes: Princes Risborough', A History of the County of Buckingham: Volume 2 (1908), pp. 260-267. URL: Date accessed: 18 May 2013. Add to my bookshelf Highlight (Min 3 characters) Contents PRINCES RISBOROUGH Manors The Park Church Advowson Charities Footnotes Riseberge (xi cent.); Magna Risberge (xiii cent.); Earls Rysebergh (xiv cent.); Princes Risburgh (xv cent.). The parish of Princes Risborough lies on the western side of the county of Buckingham. It contains 3,936¼ acres, the greater part, viz. 2,620 acres, being arable land. (fn. 1) There are 1,276¼ acres laid down in permanent grass, and 40 acres of wood. The subsoil is chalk, (fn. 2) but the surface soil is variable; on the hills it is generally light and chalky, and in the lowlands either loam or strong clay. The parish lies on the north-western slope of the Chiltern Hills, rising to over 770 ft. above the Ordnance datum. The occupation of the people is almost entirely agricultural. There is an iron-foundry at the hamlet of Looseley Row, and sequin and bead-work is done by women at Lacey Green. Water-cress beds exist near the town of Princes Risborough, where there are several springs. Princes Risborough is a small market town, lying 8¾ miles south of Aylesbury on the high road from Aylesbury to Wycombe. The road from Wycombe to Thame branches off to the north-west at the northern end of the town, and the Upper Icknield Way also crosses the parish. The Wycombe branch of the Great Western Railway runs to the west of the town, the station being about three-quarters of a mile away. In 1906 the Great Central Railway opened a branch line to Aylesbury in conjunction with the Great Western Railway, and this line passes through Princes Risborough Station. The centre of the town is at the junction of the three main streets, where the square, red-brick market-house stands, with open arcades and a covered walk on its lower story, and a wooden cupola containing a bell rising from its low slate roof. There are a good many 18th-century red-brick fronts, and near the market-house a gabled half-timber house with herringbone brick filling and a fine central chimney stack. The church is at the north-west corner of the town, standing in a large churchyard, and to the east of it is the manor-house, with remains of two sides of a deep moat in its grounds. The manor-house is a handsome red-brick building with pilasters and mouldings in cut and rubbed brick. It appears to date from the beginning of the 18th century, but its staircase and the panelling of the drawing-room are some fifty years earlier, and may have been removed from an older building on the same site. They fit so well into their present position that it seems as if the house must have been built with a view to receiving them. The staircase is of oak with a heavy moulded hand-rail and a balustrade of scrollwork, and large square newels with ball finials and moulded pendants. The drawing-room panelling is in two ranges with tall arched upper panels, with small moulded key blocks. Above is a frieze and an elaborate cornice of many moulded members. The mantel is part of the general design, and is enriched with a small Tuscan order, a central oval panel, and flat baluster pilasters below the mantel-shelf. At the window recesses are pilasters reaching from floor to ceiling, the proportions, workmanship, and design being extremely good, and though comparatively plain, the room is a charming example of its date. The entrance hall is also panelled, but not so elaborately, and is probably of the same date as the house. The windows throughout are sashed, and have heavy glazing bars. Henry VIII made a grant to the inhabitants of Princes Risborough in 1523 of a weekly market and two yearly fairs. (fn. 3) The market was held on Wednesdays, and the fairs for three days at the Feast of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin, and on St. George's Day. The market day in 1792 had been changed to Saturday, and again in 1888 to Thursday. In 1792 there was only one fair held, on 6 May. (fn. 4) A second fair has since been revived and is now held on 21 October. The town obtained a charter from Queen Elizabeth in 1598, granting to the inhabitants immunity from serving on juries and paying tolls. (fn. 5) The ancient earthwork called Grim's Dyke enters the parish on the north-eastern border by Lilly-bottom Farm, and reaches to Lacey Green. To the west of the churchyard of Princes Risborough there is a site of about an acre surrounded by a moat that popular tradition asserts to be the site of the Black Prince's palace. The civil parish of Princes Risborough contains the hamlets of Longwick, Lacey Green, Looseley Row, and Speen. Before the Norman Conquest PRINCES RISBOROUGH belonged to King Harold. (fn. 6) There was attached to the manor in his time a burgess of Oxford, who remained there after the Norman Conquest, and a salt-worker of Droitwich paid an unspecified number of loads of salt to the lord of the manor in 1086. (fn. 7) William the Conqueror kept the greater part of Harold's lands, and so Princes Risborough became part of the ancient demesne of the Crown. Half of this part of Risborough seems, however, to have been granted to Ansculf de Pinchengi very shortly after the settlement of the Normans, (fn. 8) but was exchanged for part of Ellesborough with Ralph Talgebosch or Taillebois, by the king's command. Soon afterwards Risborough again changed hands, and was held by the second Earl Walter Giffard, who made various grants from these lands to the abbey of Notley. (fn. 9) From 1162 to 1180 Princes Risborough is said to belong to the honour of Giffard, (fn. 10) but on the death of the earl in 1164 it reverted to the Crown, (fn. 11) and does not appear to have been included in the grant of his honour made by Richard I to William Marshal and Gilbert de Clare, the heirs of the Giffards. Before 1165 the manor was granted to Richard die Humeto, (fn. 12) the Constable of Normandy, and from this time was reckoned among the 'lands of the Normans.' The original grant was probably made by Walter Giffard, but in 1173–4, after his death, Henry II gave a new charter (fn. 13) to the constable. This grant was renewed on Richard's death to his son and successor, William de Humeto. (fn. 14) The latter does not appear, however, to have held the manor, which went to his younger brother Engelard, (fn. 15) but by what charter or right he held it is doubtful. Engelard's son, named William de Similly, (fn. 16) succeeded him, and held the manor till his death, circa 1205, when it escheated to the king. (fn. 17) While in the royal hands, various grants of land (fn. 18) in Risborough were made, but only of a temporary nature, and by 1224 (fn. 19) William de Similly's son, another William, was in seisin of the manor. The heirs of Earl Giffard (fn. 20) now made a determined attempt to recover Princes Risborough, claiming that it was part of the honour to which they had succeeded. Moreover, they denied that William de Similly could claim from the grant to the Constable of Normandy, as that grant had been made to Richard de Humeto and his heirs, and William was not his heir. No result came of their suit, since it was decided that the question must stand over till the king was of age. A second suit (fn. 21) was subsequently brought by Gilbert, Earl of Gloucester, against William de Similly, but the result is not recorded. The latter, (fn. 22) however, remained in peaceful seisin of the manor (fn. 23) till his death before 1242. (fn. 24) The land then escheated to the king, the heir being a minor, and the rights of wardship were granted to Drogo de Trubleville. (fn. 25) The heir of William de Similly is never mentioned again, and presumably died before coming of age, for in 1243 Henry III granted the manor of Princes Risborough to Richard, Earl of Cornwall and King of the Romans. (fn. 26) Richard was succeeded by his son Edmund, Earl of Cornwall, (fn. 27) who held the manor till his death in 1300, (fn. 28) when it again came into the king's hands, Edward I being the next heir. The king held it in demesne in 1302–3, (fn. 29) but immediately afterwards he granted it to Queen Margaret for life, in exchange for certain castles and lands with which he had dowered her. (fn. 30) Margaret, the Countess of Cornwall, however, held a third as part of her widow's dower during her life. (fn. 31) The reversion was granted in 1309 to Piers Gaveston and his wife Margaret, (fn. 32) one of the heiresses of the Clares, and also one of the descendants of the Giffards, but this grant was surrendered in the same year. (fn. 33) Queen Margaret lived till 1316, (fn. 34) and from the time of her death till 1327 the manor of Princes Risborough was held by the king. (fn. 35) At the latter date Edward III granted it to Queen Isabella in reward for her services with regard to the treaty with France and the suppression of the Despensers' Rebellion. (fn. 36) In 1330 John de Eltham, Earl of Cornwall and brother of the king, obtained a grant of the manor of Risborough, (fn. 37) but after his death in 1337 (fn. 38) Queen Isabella again held the manor. The reversion was granted to Henry de Ferrers, (fn. 39) who obtained possession after the death of Isabella, and died seised in 1344. (fn. 40) His son was a minor, and the custody of the manor was granted to the Black Prince, (fn. 41) from whom it took its present name of Princes Risborough. (fn. 42) The prince (fn. 43) held the manor till his death, when it passed to Richard his son and heir. (fn. 44) The latter, while still prince, granted the manor for life to Lewis de Clifford. (fn. 45) He confirmed the grant on his accession to the throne, and Lewis held it for his life. Under Henry IV the manor came into the hands of the Crown, and was again granted to the Prince of Wales. (fn. 46) Henry VI succeeded to the manor, (fn. 47) which formed part of the dower of his queen, Margaret of Anjou. (fn. 48) Afterwards, however, it seems to have been held by his son Edward, Prince of Wales. (fn. 49) It remained in the hands of the Crown apparently till Edward VI granted the manor to Princess Elizabeth for life. (fn. 50) James I granted it to Anne of Denmark as part of her dower, (fn. 51) and on her death to Sir Henry Hobart to the use of Prince Charles. (fn. 52) In 1628 Charles I conveyed the manor to the City of London in part payment of the large debts of the king. (fn. 53) The fee-farm rent from the manor (fn. 54) was granted in 1671 to Lord Hawley in trust for the king's heirs and successors, (fn. 55) until it was sold. This sale took place in the same year to Sir Peter Lely, (fn. 56) the painter. Under the Commonwealth the manor of Princes Risborough, distinguished at this time as the King's Manor, (fn. 57) came into the hands of Ralph Adeane. (fn. 58) He held it in 1653 (fn. 59) and 1655, (fn. 60) and after the Restoration Thomas Adeane, a minor, was lord of the manor as heir of Ralph. (fn. 61) In 1684, however, Edward Bigland and George Pelham appear to have been in seisin. (fn. 62) In 1702 and in 1729 Henry Penton held this manor (fn. 63) In 1766 it was sold by the Penton family to John Grubbe of Horsenden. (fn. 64) In the same year he, together with his next brother Samuel, sold it to Edward, the third brother. (fn. 65) Edward's grandson John held the manor in 1813, (fn. 66) but in 1841 it was advertised for sale by auction. (fn. 67) It was, however, purchased privately by the Duke of Buckingham and Chandos on the day previous to the sale. (fn. 68) The duke's lands were sold very shortly after the purchase of this manor, which, in 1862, was in the hands of Mr. James Cuddon (fn. 69) At the present day Mr. Humphrey Brill, of Aston Clinton, claims to be lord of the manor of Princes Risborough. Princes Risborough: Church Street Cornwall. Argent a lion gules crowned or in a border sable bezanty. England. Gules three leopards or. Old France. Azure powdered with fleurs-delis or. The Black Prince. Old France quartered with England, a label argent for difference. England. France quartered with England. Anjou. Old France in a border gules. Denmark. Or powdered with hearts gules three leopards azure with golden crowns. Charles, Prince of Wales. The royal arms of the Stuarts, France and England quartered with Scotland and Ireland, with the difference of a label argent. This manor in Princes Risborough was held by William de Similly by the service due from one knight's fee, (fn. 70) and the same service was performed by the Earls of Cornwall. (fn. 71) In later grants the service is not defined. The lords of the manor under the Commonwealth paid a fee-farm rent, which in 1671 was given as £82 4s. 7½d. (fn. 72) It is interesting to note that this rent had hardly varied from the yearly value of the manor 300 years before. In 1303 it was £82 9s. 3d., (fn. 73) and in 1337 £84, (fn. 74) and 1381 £90. (fn. 75) Earl Walter Giffard and Countess Ermengarde granted a wood called Lullested in Princes Risborough to the abbey of Notley, on its foundation. (fn. 76) This grant was confirmed by Henry II and John and by Edward III. (fn. 77) In 1291 the temporalities of the abbey in Princes Risborough were lands and meadows worth 12s. 9d. a year. (fn. 78) The abbey probably obtained further grants of land in the parish, since at the Dissolution it held the manor and rectory of Princes Risborough, valued at £40 a year. (fn. 79) Henry VIII granted this manor, known as the ABBOT'S MANOR, to the dean and chapter of Oxford, (fn. 80) but they forfeited it not long afterwards. Edward VI on his accession to the throne gave it to Robert King, Bishop of Oxford, (fn. 81) but Elizabeth recovered the manor from the bishop in 1589. (fn. 82) In the same year she had already granted it to Thomas Crompton, Robert Wrighte, and Gilley Merick. (fn. 83) Crompton sold it to John Jackman, (fn. 84) who held it at his death in 1622, (fn. 85) when it passed to his son. The latter sold it in 1624 to Joan Chibnall and Vincent Barry, (fn. 86) who was the steward of the King's Manor. (fn. 87) During the Civil War this manor presumably came into the hands of Ralph Adeane, who certainly had the rectory. (fn. 88) In a suit as to the customs of the manor in 1675, (fn. 89) the King's Manor and the Abbot's Manor are both mentioned; the former is said to belong to the ancient demense of the Crown, and not the latter, but both seem to be held by Thomas Adeane, and from this time continued to be held together. In Elizabeth's grant to Thomas Crompton, (fn. 90) a mansion-house called 'Broke House' is specially mentioned, and appears in the majority of the deeds relating to the manor. The latter indeed is sometimes called Brooke, the description in 1813 (fn. 91) being the 'manor of Risborough or Princes Risborough or Brooke or Abbot's Risborough commonly called the Abbots' hold.' By Walter Giffard's grant the wood was held by the abbey in frankalmoign, (fn. 92) and the Bishop of Oxford held the manor in the reign of Edward VI on the same tenure, but also paid rent for it. (fn. 93) CULVERTON is first mentioned in 1247. (fn. 94) Stephen son of Hugh of Culverton then held 1 hide of land of Philip son of Oliver. He had formerly paid the yearly rent of 1 mark, but it was changed by agreement to the payment of a clove gilly-flower yearly. In 1317 Hugh of Culverton made an exchange of land in Princes Risborough with John de Foxle and his wife Constance. Hugh by this settlement was to hold his land and tenements for life, with remainder to John and Constance and the heirs of John. (fn. 95) The other piece of land which changed hands was to be held by John and Constance and the heirs of John. (fn. 96) These arrangements suggest that Constance was possibly the heiress of Hugh de Culverton. John de Foxle died, in 1324–5, seised jointly with his wife of land at Culverton. (fn. 97) Constance then held them alone and presumably was succeeded by Thomas de Foxle. (fn. 98) In the next century Richard de la Hay held the manor of Culverton, which in 1443 was settled intact on Matthew de la Hay and his wife Anne. (fn. 99) It was sold in 1516–17 by Thomas a Botre and his wife Joan to Robert Bonner. (fn. 100) It had apparently been the inheritance of Joan. (fn. 101) In 1633–4 the manor of Culverton alias Frogmore House passed from Charles Alden and his wife Alice to Ralph Baldwin; (fn. 102) five years later the latter conveyed it to Francis Steevens. (fn. 103) John de Foxle held his land in Culverton of the king in chief, of the manor of Princes Risborough. (fn. 104) He did suit of court at Risborough every three weeks, and paid a yearly rent of 33s. 9d. (fn. 105) In 1316–17 the king granted him and his heirs the right of free warren in all his demesne lands in Princes Risborough and Saunderton. (fn. 106) The manor of Princes Risborough in 1086 was assessed at 30 hides, and of these 20 were then contained in the demesne of the king. (fn. 107) This suggests that even in the 11th century the nucleus of a park already existed, and a few years later the wood of Earl Walter Giffard is mentioned in the foundation charter of Notley Abbey. (fn. 108) The park is mentioned in the inquisition taken at the death of Richard Earl of Cornwall, (fn. 109) and the Abbot of Notley had various rights in it, (fn. 110) to maintain which he was continually making complaints to the king. (fn. 111) Edward II and probably his predecessors used the park of Risborough as a stud-farm. The buildings in the manor were repaired in 1318, (fn. 112) so that the horses of the king's stud could be properly kept there, and a special inclosure was made in which the horses might be exercised. Orders were given that the keeper of the stud should have whatever was required for the horses. (fn. 113) The colts are particularly specified in some of the orders, and in the appointment of William de Framesworth as keeper of the stud it is specially mentioned that he was to have the custody of the colts as well as of the horses already broken in. (fn. 114) The deer in the park are also mentioned in 1337, (fn. 115) when orders were given that thirty-two should be taken from the parks of Risborough and Cippenham, and sent to Westminster for the funeral expenses of John Earl of Cornwall, the king's brother. The park was however, always granted with the manor until Henry VIII granted an inclosure, called Risborough Park, to Sir Edward Don. (fn. 116) The Dons had already held the parkership of Risborough; Edward IV had granted it to Sir John Don, who retained his office after the accession of Henry VII. (fn. 117) In 1520 the office of parker was granted to Sir Edward himself, and to Sir John Daunce in survivorship. (fn. 118) Sir Edward's daughter and heiress Anne married George Cotton of Whittington, (fn. 119) Gloucestershire, and she held the park for her life. (fn. 120) The reversion, to fall in after her death, was sold in 1562 by Edward Daunce to Sir William Dormer. (fn. 121) Robert Lord Dormer, the son of Sir William, died seised of the Risborough Park (fn. 122) in 1617, his heir being his grandson Robert, whose estates were sequestered during the Civil War. (fn. 123) In 1561 George Gosnald, of Colston Basset, Notts., obtained the estate of Lord Dormer in Princes Risborough on a lease, paying £230 a year. (fn. 124) Lord Dormer was said to have held it at a yearly rental of £100. (fn. 125) This estate was not definitely called the Park of Princes Risborough, but it seems probable that it may be identified with it. No mention of the park is made after the Restoration, and it seems to have been recovered by the lords of the manor. When Ralph Adeane held the property in 1653 (fn. 126) there were 800 acres of wood and 60 of furze and heath attached to the manor, the total acreage of land of all kinds being 1,360 acres, and rents being paid further to the value of £15 a year. The Abbot's manor was not included in this. Dormer. Azure ten billets or and a chif or with a demi lion sable. In the Domesday Book there were two mills at Princes Risborough, worth 14s. 8d. a year. (fn. 127) They may probably be identified with the two water-mills mentioned in the reign of Henry III. Geoffrey Neyrnut held one of these of the King of Almain, then Richard Earl of Cornwall, the lord of the manor, and the second of Richard de la Forde. (fn. 128) One water-mill was held in the 17th century by William Hampden. (fn. 129) It was left under his will to his cousin Richard Hampden. (fn. 130) It was then called Longwick Mill, a name which is still used for the water-mill in the hamlet of Longwick at the present day. A watermill was also held by Robert Lord Dormer, early in the 17th century, (fn. 131) and a water-mill and a windmill are mentioned in 1712, being then in the possession of Charles Dormer. (fn. 132) In the 14th century there was a water-mill at Culverton. (fn. 133) A mill was first mentioned in the settlement made between Hugh of Culverton and John de Foxle in 1317, (fn. 134) and the latter died seised of a water-mill. (fn. 135) In the conveyances of the manor of Culverton in the 17th century the water-mill passed with the manor. (fn. 136) The church of OUR LADY consists of a chancel 32 ft. 9 in. by 17 ft. 10 in., with a modern organ chamber on the north; a nave 60 ft. 9 in. by 26 ft. 3 in.; north and south aisles 11 ft. 3 in. and 8 ft. wide respectively; a south porch and a western tower. Up to the first quarter of the 13th century the church consisted of a chancel and an aisleless nave of the same width as at present, but some 10 ft. shorter. About 1220 north and south aisles were added, and about 1300 the nave and aisles were lengthened by one bay, a tower being probably begun at the same time. A little later, in the 14th century, the chancel was rebuilt, and the clearstory was a 15th-century addition. In modern times the church has been drastically restored, few of the windows remaining untouched. The clearstory and north aisle were rebuilt, and the east responds of the nave arcades, which were of some depth, pierced with small arches in continuation of the arcades. In 1907 a new tower and a tall stone spire were begun from the designs of Mr. Oldrid Scott. The east window of the chancel is modern and of geometrical detail. In the north wall is a muchrestored early 14th-century window of two uncusped lights, with an uncusped circle over and shafts to the internal splay. West of this is the opening to the modern organ chamber. At the south-west of the chancel is a trefoiled piscina, circa 1330, with a shelf and a double drain. The two windows in the south wall, of 14th-century style, and the door between them, are all much restored but in part ancient Below the western window is a blocked low side window, with a square head and plain chamfered jambs and with its iron bars still in position. The chancel arch is modern and of late 13th-century style. The nave is of seven bays, and the two arcades are practically identical, the arches throughout being of two chamfered orders. The first arch on either side is modern, and also the first column, circular in plan and with moulded capital and base. The second, third, fourth, and fifth columns and arches, and the sixth arch are of 13th-century date, the columns being octagonal and the arches having plain chamfered labels, with moulded capitals and plain bases. The seventh pair of arches, circa 1300, have a filleted roll label, and the sixth columns and the western responds are of the same time and are of quatrefoil plan, with moulded capitals and bases of the same form and date, but varying from each other in the details of moulding. The tower arch is modern and of early 14th-century design. The clearstory has five modern sixfoil circles on either side, and is shown by Lipscomb to have originally had two-light windows in this position. (fn. 137) The north aisle opens to the organ chamber by a modern arch, and the north wall of the aisle has been completely rebuilt; but in the main with old materials. The windows are four in number, the first two of three trefoiled lights with tracery over, the others of two lights, and all with segmental heads and of 14th-century detail. Some old stones are set in their jambs and splays, but the tracery in all cases is quite modern. The blocked north door in the middle of this aisle is of 14th-century date but very much restored, with continuously moulded jambs and two-centred head of two orders. There is no west window to either aisle. The south aisle has a much-restored east window of 14th-century date, with two uncusped lights. The shafted jambs, mullion, and splays are old, and have circular moulded capitals and bases. In the south wall, at the east end, are a much-defaced piscina and sedile of 14th-century date, with the remains of elaborate projecting canopies with shafted jambs; in the piscina is a stone shelf. Immediately west of this is a very remarkable three-light window, which looks like 13th-century work reused and altered circa 1320. The lights are uncusped, and have a square inner reveal and stilted moulded rear arches resting on freestanding shafts with octagonal moulded capitals; there are engaged shafts to the tracery orders also. Partly under this window is a 14th-century tomb recess with a sub-cusped cinquefoiled ogee head, and another like it to the west; both are now empty. Close to the south door is a small plain much restored holy water recess, and from this point to the sedile runs a stringcourse on the level of the sill to the window last described. The south door is of late 13th-century date, with a deeply-moulded two-centred head and shafted jambs with circular bases and capitals. West of the south door is a window of three cinquefoiled lights, repaired, but of 14th-century date, and there is a contemporary moulded string-course forming its sill and extending some distance on each side of it. Below are two tomb recesses similar to those already described, but having shafted jambs. The south porch is modern and has a small lancet on either side. The new western tower is of three stages, with a tall stone spire, and incorporates the old tower, which has been refaced. The font is modern, with a plain octagonal bowl. There are no monuments of interest in the church, and the roofs and seating are modern. There is, however, a 17th-century oak pulpit. There is only one bell, dated 1838, and a small 'ting-tang,' dated 1805. The church plate consists of a communion cup of 1752, given by Thomas Penn, rector; a plated paten; and a flagon of 1629, given by Miss Mary Chibnall. The first book of the registers contains baptisms and marriages from 1561 to 1695 and burials from 1561 to 1678. Burials are continued in a second book from 1678 to 1727, and baptisms and marriages in a third from 1695 to 1721. A fourth book contains baptisms and marriages from 1721 to 1754; a fifth and sixth burials from 1721 to 1786 and from 1786 to 1812. Baptisms, after a gap, are continued from 1788 to 1812, and three books containing marriages with banns run from 1754 to 1776, from 1776 to 1803, and from 1803 to 1812. The church of Princes Risborough was granted by Walter Giffard to Notley Abbey (fn. 138) at its foundation, with the tithes of his demesne lands there. A vicarage, however, was not ordained. In 1258 the abbot obtained leave from the pope that the churches and chapels belonging to his abbey should be served by the canons or other priests, who should be answerable to the abbot and convent. (fn. 139) This method of serving the churches caused various complaints in the 14th and 15th centuries, (fn. 140) but the privilege was confirmed by Boniface IX in 1402. (fn. 141) The rectory belonged to the abbey of Notley at the dissolution of the monasteries. (fn. 142) It was afterwards granted by Henry VIII to the Dean and Chapter of Oxford, (fn. 143) and was held with the Abbot's Manor till the 19th century. A vicarage is mentioned in the grants of Henry VIII (fn. 144) and Edward VI, (fn. 145) but this was probably a mistake. The advowson of the church was granted with the rectory to Thomas Crampton, (fn. 146) and the church was served by a perpetual curate appointed by the impropriator of the rectory. The patronage was transferred to the Bishop of Oxford in 1860, (fn. 147) and finally the benefice was declared a rectory in 1868. (fn. 148) A chapel of St. John the Evangelist was built at Lacey Green early in the 19th century, (fn. 149) the plan being mainly carried through by the exertions of the Rev. Richard Meade, rector of Horsenden and perpetual curate of Princes Risborough. It was consecrated by the Bishop of Lincoln in 1825. The hamlet, with Looseley Row and Speen, was, however, formed into an ecclesiastical parish in 1851; (fn. 150) the living is a vicarage in the gift of the rector of Princes Risborough. The Abbot of Notley, at the time of the Dissolution, was bound to distribute certain charities to various poor persons at the church of Princes Risborough, to the value of 20s. a year, for the benefit of the souls of the Earl Walter Giffard and the Countess Ermengarde. (fn. 151) An acre of land was also granted to provide a light at Princes Risborough, presumably within the church. (fn. 152) A Baptist chapel was built in 1707 in Bell Street, and a second chapel was opened at Looseley Row in 1862. There is a branch of the Bell Street chapel at Longwick, where there is also a Wesleyan chapel. The Wesleyan Methodists have a chapel in Princes Risborough, built in 1869. At Speen there is a Baptist chapel opened in 1813, and the Primitive Methodists have a chapel at Lacey Green. For many years there was an ancient custom at Princes Risborough by which the impropriator gave a bull and a boar on Christmas Day for the use of his parishioners. They were distributed 'in large pieces, smoking hot from the copper at five o'clock in the morning for breakfast on Christmas Day.' (fn. 153) Four bushels of wheat and four bushels of malt were also made into bread and beer and given away. The custom however was given up before 1847. (fn. 154) In 1615–16 William Smith by his will left £40 for the use of the poor. The legacy was laid out in land, in respect of which 3 a. 2 r. 36 p. in Near Side Field were allotted on the inclosure in 1820. The land is let in allotments, producing about £7 a year, which is applied in the distribution of money, 2s. 6d. to each recipient. An annual payment of £32 a year is made by Lord Rothschild out of the Manor Farm, Tring, in respect of Joan Chibnall's Charity, by will, 1646, for providing gowns, &c., for poor widows or ancient ladies of Princes Risborough, and other parishes in this county and Oxford. In 1905 thirteen women of this parish were provided with gowns at a cost of £8; 2s. were given to fifty-one recipients and 10s. paid to the rector for a sermon. In 1684 Thomas Meade left £100 to be laid out in land, the rents and profits to be applied in apprenticing to trades (except husbandry). The legacy was laid out in the purchase of land, in respect of which at the inclosure in 1820, 3 a. or. 10 p. in Near Side Field were allotted for the poor. The land is let at £3 10s. a year. In 1713 Mrs. Katherine Pye by deed settled lands in Towersey for educational and eleemosynary purposes in the parishes of Bradenham, Towersey, Princes Risborough, Hughenden, and West Wycombe. The land, known as Quash Farm, contains about fiftythree acres awarded under the Towersey Inclosure Act, 1822, producing a net income of about £60 a year. By an order of the Charity Commissioners, dated 15 March 1904, made under the Board of Education Act, 1899, the part of the endowment applicable for educational purposes was determined to be an annual sum of £36 for schooling certain children of the said parishes, and an annual sum of £1 1s. 8d. for books for such children leaving school. The yearly sum of £12 is payable under the deed of foundation to six poor widows, or widows and maids of Bradenham, Towersey, and West Wycombe, 40s. to each; £5 to the treasurer, and 40s. for the expenses of the trustees, and the surplusage, if any, in apprenticing. The sum of £8 10s. is received as the share of Princes Risborough, and applied to general school expenses. In 1772 Richard Stratton by will bequeathed £500 to the governors of Christ's Hospital, to secure the nomination of one poor boy belonging to Princes Risborough. Elizabeth Eustace, by deed 5 July 1784, gave certain lands for providing 'lots of linen' for the poor. On the inclosure 1 a. o r. 27 p. were allotted in respect thereof, which is let at £4 10s. a year, of which the sum of £1 3s. is paid to the parish of Bledlow. In 1905 linen to the value of 5s. was given to each of twelve recipients, and 1s. was retained by each of the five trustees in pursuance of the provisions of the deed. The Poor's Land allotted on the inclosure contains 39 a. 3 r. 11 p., let to fifteen tenants at £30 a year. The net proceeds are distributed in coal among the cottagers. The Church Land consists of 32 p. at Longwick, let at £1 1s. a year, which is applied towards the church expenses. The Baptist Chapel in Bell Street, erected in 1707, in addition to the Minister's House, is possessed of a house at Parkfield, let at £12 a year. By an order of the Charity Commissioners, dated 11 March 1898, new trustees of the trust property, including the old and new burial-ground, were appointed. 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NetBSD 6.0 Has Shipped 124)." Re: (Score:3, Insightful) Re: (Score:3, Informative) If you need a hand, ask on the netbsd-users mailing list ( [netbsd.org]). Especially with the new release just being out there should be plenty of people willing to help with whatever issue you have. (Since you've been running betas for a while you probably know about the mailing lists, so this is more of a PSA for anyone else) Zombie Apolcalypse? (Score:3, Funny) Did Netcraft confirm it? Everyone celebrates! (Score:1, Funny) Re:Everyone celebrates! (Score:5, Interesting) you might well be a NetBSD user and not know it. might be in your printer, network router or switch, internet security or web cam, cell phone.....it's an extremely stable, well engineered and high quality operating system Re:Everyone celebrates! (Score:5, Funny) Re: (Score:2) oh, a MacOSX user. that really doesn't count as netbsd even though there is some in the userland Contradiction (Score:1) Why does a STABLE release version highlight as a feature an EXPERIMENTAL filesystem? Re: (Score:2) Re:Contradiction (Score:5, Informative) STABLE is just the branch release. It means if you track the STABLE tree, you'll only get bugfixes. If you track CURRENT, you get stuff that'll go into the next version of NetBSD, but stuff will change on you (requiring you to update scripts and such). See the release map [netbsd.org] for a better explaination. It has nothing to do with the stability of the OS itself. I can't comment on that, since I haven't used it much, but from what I hear it's pretty good. Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) This is a common way of getting advanced features out in 'beta' without slowing down a whole release - it allows users to experiment with the feature without expecting full support or without having to manually install the new feature itself - if you don't want to risk stability, don't use it. Similary - there are at least 2x similar 'experimental' technologies in RHEL6, which is used by many thousands of companies on mission critical systems: - Linux Containers are a Technology Preview. - Btrfs is not a producti Re:Contradiction (Score:5, Insightful) Don't bother explaining it yourself, just be a prat when people ask reasonable questions - I'm sure that will bring in more users. of the BSDs (Score:2) The one I know most about is FreeBSD. I have this vague notion that NetBSD has historically been used for routers/traffic shaping? Re: (Score:3, Informative) Darwin (the Unix heart of OSX) is a NetBSD derivative. Parts of QNX (a popular commercial embedded OS) are also based on NetBSD. Re: (Score:3) Darwin is based on the *FreeBSD* userland stack, but it has a Mach-based kernel. I don't believe there is really ,inch NetBSD stuff in there at all... Re: (Score:3) Check it out, from the horses mouth [netbsd.org]. NetBSD is used by Apple for a large portion of the user-space commands and tools in their Darwin project, and Darwin is the UNIX-based core used by Mac OS X. NetBSD source tends to pay attention to issues of portability and correctness, and is virtually all BSD licenced, which avoids commercial problems with the GNU General Public Licence. At least one of the Apple developers has access to the NetBSD source tree and has fed back some useful changes Re: (Score:1) Apple has utilities from both NetBSD and OpenBSD. But remember that Apple hired the primary developer from FreeBSD, and there's lots of FreeBSD code in OS X. One obvious example is the property lists API, which is a really odd feature from FreeBSD. (Sort of like importing some random dude's init parsing code as-if it were somehow unique or even useful as an operating system interface.) Also, there's a BSD kernel in OS X, which is a process managed by Mach. Not sure if it was ripped from FreeBSD or NetBSD. Re:of the BSDs (Score:5, Informative) Actually... Apple has utilities from both NetBSD and OpenBSD. Darwin has code from FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD, as well as code from Apple both in kernel space and userland (including the system library - the memory allocator [apple.com], for example, isn't from any *BSD). ...and there's lots of FreeBSD code in OS X. One obvious example is the property lists API, which is a really odd feature from FreeBSD No, it's from NeXTStEP, not FreeBSD. Also, there's a BSD kernel in OS X, which is a process managed by Mach. Mach manages tasks and threads; UN*X processes are built atop Mach tasks, and pthreads are built atop Mach threads. The "BSD kernel" part of XNU (under the bsd subdirectory) is what implements the "UN*X processes" stuff (among other things, such as the file system and networking mechanisms), and that code runs in both the "kernel task" (the UN*X process for which is pid 0) and in other tasks; it doesn't run in "a" process/task in the sense of "it runs in a single process/task". Not sure if it was ripped from FreeBSD or NetBSD. The from-BSD parts of the "BSD kernel" are mostly taken from FreeBSD, but have changed significantly, and the "BSD kernel" has a fair bit of Apple code in it, as well as, for example, Sun (Open Solaris) code (as in "DTrace"). Great response (Score:2) Re: (Score:1) Re: (Score:2) I think Android uses NetBSD-derived userland stuff also? I've had the impression that they wanted BSD stuff for licensing reasons but I wonder if there's something specific to NetBSD that makes everybody particularly like their userland utilities! Re: (Score:3, Informative) * * from: @(#)ls.h 8.1 (Berkeley) 5/31/93 * $FreeBSD: src/bin/ls/ls.h,v 1.18 2002/05/19 02:51:36 tjr Exp $ */ Re: (Score:1) Cool story. Re: (Score:1) Check it out, from the horses mouth [netbsd.org]. You are looking at the wrong horse. [apple.com] The BSD portion of the OS X kernel is derived primarily from FreeBSD, a version of 4.4BSD that offers advanced networking, performance, security, and compatibility features. Re:of the BSDs (Score:5, Interesting) The Darwin kernel (which is called XNU) is a bit weird - I spent some time looking into it when it was still a relatively new thing (2003-4 kind of era). XNU is Mach + FreeBSD + DeviceKit/Apple-y bits, all sharing the same protection domain.! The Apple-y bits in the kernel that I mentioned definitely includes DeviceKit, their driver interface. Maybe some other stuff as well. The drivers are not normal FreeBSD-like device drivers - I think they're even C++, unlike FreeBSD itself. I found it all a bit unexpected really, things didn't fit together as I'd imagined. There's probably more in here; I'm not sure if it's the original one I read through! [apple.com] Re: (Score:2)! I.e., it's as much a "microkernel" as Windows NT is. :-) The Apple-y bits in the kernel that I mentioned definitely includes DeviceKit, their driver interface. Maybe some other stuff as well. The drivers are not normal FreeBSD-like device drivers - I think they're even C++, unlike FreeBSD itself. Yes, DeviceKit drivers are written in (a subset of) C++. Drivers that just plug into the standard UN*Xy cdevsw are likely to be just Boring Old C. The VFS (file system) and network protocol layers should look somewhat familiar to people used to the *BSDs. Other than sitting atop Mach tasks, the process layer should also look familiar to them. Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) This makes the whole kernel basically monolithic (i.e. like the modern Windows and Linux kernels), which is kind of unexpected! Well, we knew that was the case before OSX even shipped, but OK. It's not a microkernel-based operating system because the microkernel isn't doing process management, or much of anything at all. It's just playing HAL. Re: (Score:3) This makes the whole kernel basically monolithic (i.e. like the modern Windows and Linux kernels), which is kind of unexpected! It's not unexpected for anyone who has been paying even remotely attention to operating system development. Let me quote Linus from a G+ post on Greg Kroah-Hartmans feed: yes, it's based on Mach, but it's based on the older Mach 2 architecture which really wasn't a microkernel. It's parts of FreeBSD bolted on top of a research kernel that was meant to become a microkernel, but never really did. And the result really is nasty. Page fault and VM latencies are horrible (why do I know? We hit huge performance problems while doing the MacOS port of git), the filesystem choices they've done show a level of incompetence that is stunning, yadda yadda. But hey, it's pretty on top. If the Apple engineers actually knew what they were doing, they could use a known superior open-source kernel and put their pretty on top of that instead. Then they wouldn't have to do kernel programming, and could leave it to the people who actually like doing it and know what they are doing. Re: (Score:3) Re: (Score:2) Of course, at least Apple can come up with a stable ABI and driver model. Linus is too interested in playing around with little fiddly bits to worry about important stuff, like making sure software written a few months ago still works. Re: (Score:2) LMWTFY en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBSD#Examples_of_use Re:of the BSDs (Score:5, Interesting) NetBSD is the "runs on any/everything" variant. It's absurdly portable. If you've heard stories / jokes about "BSD on a toaster", it was probably NetBSD. It's not necessarily a great desktop system; "runs on everything" doesn't mean all internal or peripheral software support is going to be great (desktop-oriented BSD distros are usually FreeBSD based). However, it's a great choice if you have a very old or obscure computer that you want to run it on. I know a guy who runs NetBSD on one of the later-model VAXes. Re: (Score:1) Re: (Score:1) Sweet! (Score:3, Funny) Is the 68K port up to date? I've got to dig up my SE/30 and see if I can get it going again. Nothing like an old BW compact mac with a bash prompt to make a geek do a double take. Re: (Score:2) Actually, does it officially support Itanium, as yet? For something that claims to be the most ported, one would imagine it would. But honestly, I don't see the point to this - OpenBSD I can understand, and FreeBSD too. But NetBSD? I think they'd be better off just merging w/ Minix, which already uses NetBSD userland since 3.2 Re: (Score:1) Itaniums (Score:2) Oh, I know that OpenBSD forked from NetBSD, but it has far outgrown it. NetBSD's only selling point was being most ported - at least amongst the BSDs, but even there, FreeBSD has a version for ia64, but NetBSD doesn't. Which is why I was wondering. Currently, amongst the OSs still active for Itanium, aside from HP/UX, on the Linux side, only Debian remains, and on the BSD side, only FreeBSD. Any inputs on which of these is a better choice for this platform? Re: (Score:2) Great! (Score:2, Interesting) I even run this on an old Amgia, 20 years old. Amazing stuff, netbsd that is. I wonder how they manage to support all these different hardware. Cool. Re:Great! (Score:5, Interesting) I wonder how they manage to support all these different hardware. One way is automated cross-compiling to ensure that the source at least builds for as many architectures as possible. Think of it as a large scale continuous integration environment. why is this release announcement buried? (Score:5, Insightful). Re: (Score:2, Interesting) Indeed. NetBSD is exceedingly stable and more people need to take advantage of it. I'm very surprised Google didn't choose to use *BSD instead of Linux, because as servers go, nothing beats BSD. I once administered several BSD server and never once had a failure. Ever. Once they are up and running and configured correctly, they are there to stay short of hardware failure. NetBSD makes a great embedded OS and I'm surprised there are not smartphones running BSD. Maybe soon... Re: (Score:3, Informative) I'm surprised there are not smartphones running BSD. Maybe soon... There are. [apple.com] Re: (Score:2, Interesting) It's far easier to get random drivers and niche optimizations into Linux mainline. That's why BSDs tend to be more stable---less code churn. (Other times, it means persistent problems that go unaddressed for years.) Code churn means more bugs. It's inevitable. And it's why it's so easy to root a Linux machine, even though on-the-whole the code quality is really good. Also, Google started using Linux 15 years ago, before NetBSD was actually tolerable. In real world terms I guess the difference is small, but w Re: (Score:2, Interesting) > Evidence? This is Slashdot. OTOH, code churn is quantifiable, and I'd put money down to show that Linux changes faster, especially wrt to drivers, but I'm not about to waste my time doing that. People can take my assertion for what it's worth. One man's "code churn" is another man's development. If you improve code, it churns. BSDs certainly don't have any claim to be perfect and not requiring any improvement. They are behind Linux in almost any objective metric you can come up with, which is why they r Re: (Score:3) Linux used to be like the BSDs. I forgot his name, but in the 1990s there was like one dude who wrote most of the ethernet NIC drivers. If you bought a card you made sure to buy one compatible with his drivers, because all the others were crap. Could it be Donald Becker? Re: (Score:1) Re: (Score:2) I got 6 years of uptime once off of NetBSD on sparc. Congrats but you should never do it in something connected to internet. You would be using a 6-year old kernel that's ridicously vulnerable to 6-year old exploits. Re: (Score:2) how exactly do you access a kernel from the network without going via an application? Hrm, I'd guess you're probably twenty-five or younger, given that question. You missed some good times. Back in the day the TCP/IP stacks had quite a few bugs in them. Just about everyone lifted code from BSD 4.x (yeah, the original BSD). Once exploits for those started coming out, it was a race to see who could fix them the fastest. Linux (and I assume the BSDs, although I didn't follow them then) usually had a fix out within hours - Microsoft usually didn't have a fix for months, which did a lot for th Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, Apple and Oracle all have a whole lot more users than NetBSD. To most people, NetBSD brings absolutely nothing that Linux doesn't bring. NetBSD may run in some routers, but Linux probably runs in a *lot* more routers. Even FreeBSD may run in more routers than NetBSD (JunOS is FreeBSD based..). So, to most of us, NetBSD is "meh, don't care". Sorry. Multi-core packet filtering (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) I second that. Anyone who's got experience with npf, please speak up. Oblig. quote from Escape from LA (Score:2, Funny) I thought you were dead! Re: (Score:2) I get that a lot. Of little relevance (Score:2) the features list are things most kernels have had for a decade or two, but NetBSD acts like they are brand new features? Talking about these features that have been around forever as being the latest and greatest is absurd. The BSDs long ago lost relevance. Pretty much there is not a thing that they do better than Linux and there is a lot that they do not do that Linux can do. It is painfuil to install and the hardware support is worse than Windows. I cant see a a strength to it. Re: (Score:2) I cant see a a strength to it. Support for VAX & toaster ovens. Also, lack of new code. Protip: New code = opportunity for instability / exploits. Linux is great for bleeding edge, but I run BSD on my NAS & Routers because stability is more important there. Linux license is SO much worse, huh? (Score:1) Re: (Score:1) I don't see how this disputes the simple fact that BSD Unix ran into major legal hurdles in the early days of its migration to the x86-based commodity software sphere, thus helping Linux gain an early lead. You seem to be trying to say that somehow BSD Unix systems such a Re: (Score:1) What I quoted implies everything you just restated, and it still doesn't dispute the fact that "BSD Unix ran into major legal hurdles in the early days of its migration to the x86-based commodity software sphere, thus helping Linux gain an early lead." You seem to have no (willingness to acknowledge, or conception of) the importance of timing. I suppose you've never heard the phrase "fist to market", either. Re:Of little relevance (Score:1) The BSDs long ago lost relevance. Precisely. And netcraft comfirms it. Re:Worth trying out? (Score:5, Informative) I've never really used NetBSD (I've installed it a couple times, but never used it much), but I've used OpenBSD and FreeBSD quite a bit. It's probably not what you'd want for a desktop system. It will run all the server stuff you listed just fine. The system compiler is gcc, although it likely comes with BSD make, so you'll want to install GNU make for compiling some software (usually it doesn't make a difference, but some projects rely on GNU make). Packaging is similar to Slackware's package system (or at least how it used to be - I haven't use Slack in years) - it's tarball based. There is the pkgsrc system where you can automatically download and compile software for the system (based off FreeBSD's port system, which I rather like). You can also download and recompile the entire OS if you want (the infamous "make world" on FreeBSD, although glancing at the docs it seems NetBSD doesn't use that exact term). Binary updates are generally available for security or bugfixes. The system doesn't do this for you (unless you recompile the system from source regularly - see below), so you have to check the errata page often to see if you need to update something. If you do, it's generally as simple as downloading the new binary and installing it using the system install tool. Source updates are done on CVS trees - you track one of the trees (STABLE or CURRENT) and you get updates. The BSDs differ a bit where this is concerned, so I can't really give any specifics, but on FreeBSD and OpenBSD it's relatively painless once you get it set up. There's a utility to help you update your configuration files in FreeBSD and OpenBSD, so I assume NetBSD has something similar. It supports CARP if you want to do clustering. I'm not sure if that will cover your needs, but if not, OpenBSD or FreeBSD might. I can attest that netbooting OpenBSD is cake - my firewall runs diskless. As far as my experiences, well, there's a bit of a learning curve. It's easier if you've worked with Slackware or some other source-heavy Linux distro. The BSDs have a very unified feel to them, probably because there's no separation of userland and kernel development - the base system is developed as one unit, not a bunch of different projects. Like with anything, you have to use it a while to get a feel for it. I like it. It's not as stuffy as Solaris, but it has a more consistant feel than Linux. Documentation is usually excellent, and the man pages are the definitive resource and usually include examples and explainations. I use OpenBSD for my firewall and nameserver, and FreeBSD for my file/webserver (due to ZFS and better Java support). I would use FreeBSD as a professional workstation (as long as it didn't require heavy 3D work), but not for my home machine. If you've got the time to put into learning it (which if you know your stuff from Linux, it won't take long), it's well worth it. Throw it on a server and use it for a bit, and see what you think. Re: (Score:2) Slackware might not be source-heavy now (I haven't used it in years), but it used to be, if you actually wanted to do anything with the system. If you wanted to install something that's not in the package sets (most everything, since Pat wasn't superman), you had to download and compile the source code. I never touched a line of C before I started on Slackware, and it was a trip learning to coax code into working. This was back before GNU autoconf was popular. Also, this was back when compiling your own k Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) I have an Asus EEE PC (900A) with NetBSD 5 that runs the stock X.org and uses the kernel Intel DRI driver (i915drm) for accelerated 3D performance -- pretty good given the hardware. There are DRI drivers for Radeon that I've also used, haven't looked into Nouveau. So the 3D support foundation is there, but the hardware pickings are still kinda slim. Besides basic 3D acceleration, the continual 'catchup game' with desktop BSD is the explicit coding for Linux on the part of the big open source desktop envi

MAY 14-15th, 2013 schedule May 2013 - FILM SCREENING SPONSOR - The arts, specifically the music and film industries, have perhaps been the most profoundly impacted of all industry by the digital revolution. Canadian superstar Keanu Reeves felt passionately about exploring the impact that digital had on the movie business and so he engaged several of his fellow filmmaker to create the impressive documentary SIDE BY SIDE, which has graced film festival screens around the world. From the film’s website: .” Justin Szlasa co-produced the critically-acclaimed feature documentary with Keanu Reeves. SIDE BY SIDE chronicles the way digital technology has revolutionized how movies are made through interviews with industry leaders like George Lucas, James Cameron, Lars Von Trier, Walter Murch and David Lynch. On the evening of Monday, May 13, Mr. Szlasa will be on hand to kick off CDMN Canada 3.0 2013 with a screening of the film, followed by a Q&A with sponsor TVO’s commissioning editor, Jane Jankovic. Advanced registration for this event is required. Please register here. Justin Szlasa Producer Justin Szlasa is a filmmaker and entrepreneur. He produced the critically acclaimed feature documentary SIDE BY SIDE with Keanu Reeves which premiered in 2012 at the Berlin International Film festival. SIDE BY SIDE has screened at over 70 festivals around the world and is distributed in the US and Canada by Tribeca Film. In 2010 Justin released the documentary 759: BOY SCOUTS OF HARLEM which he directed, produced and edited. It aired nationally on public television. Justin started his career as a management consultant but quit in 1997 to start Hubbard One, a software and services company that served about half the largest law firms in the United States. Under Justin’s management, Hubbard became an industry leader and was named by Deloitte as one of the fastest growing businesses in the country for three years in a row. In 2004, Thomson (now, German language and culture at LMU in Munich and improv at UCB. Justin grew up in Big Flats, New York. He resides in Paris with his family and will relocate to Los Angeles in August 2013. Welcome to Canada 3.0 2013 Amber Mac – emcee - Bestselling social media author, speaker, TV host, and entrepreneur Introductions by Dr. Kevin Tuer - Managing Director, Canadian Digital Media Network Tom Jenkins - Executive Chairman and Chief Strategy Officer, OpenText Corporation’ Chris Anderson - Former editor-in-chief of WIRED (2001-2012). Author, Makers, Free and The Long Tail. Founder, 3D Robotics Mentorworks has secured over $45M worth of government funding for its clients. In this breakout session, learn about the top provincial and federal government funds that digital media companies should be applying for, get tips on how to complete successful applications, and hear about success stories from funded companies. - Bernadeen McLeod - President & Founder, Mentor Works Ltd. Immediately following his keynote address, Chris Anderson takes to the stage on the tradeshow floor to answer audience questions and sign copies of his latest book, Makers. MaRS President Euan Robertson will pose and facilitate audience questions for 20 minutes, followed by a 25 minute book signing. Beat the rush and purchase your book online in advance for the discounted conference rate of $25.99! You order the book online, pick it up at the signing and have Chris autograph it for you. Chris Anderson - Former editor-in-chief of WIRED (2001-2012). Author, Makers, Free and The Long Tail. Founder, 3D Robotics Introduction: John Jung, CEO at Canada’s Technology Triangle The DataWind story is an amazing success, about a Canadian company identifying huge market opportunity in an international market, creating the disruptive technology capable of harvesting that potential and continuing to lever the diverse and talented labour market in Canada to make education in the third world a reality. Suneet Singh Tuli - Chief Executive Officer, Datawind Ltd.. Jason Townsend will be speaking at the event via video conference. Jason Townsend - NASA's Deputy Social Media Manager The way we transact intellectual property rights and manage contracts that has developed over many decades doesn’t meet the emerging needs of the digital content community. On the one hand we have state of the art digital technologies in multimillion-dollar production and broadcast management suites creating a huge volume and variety of content. On the other, we have a slow, methodical, labour intensive and document-oriented process. Rights management could interface more effectively with a rapidly evolving and complex technology ecosystem to automate many of the downstream processes. How do we make the rights licensing process faster and more efficient and drive down transaction costs and complexity? The industry panel will be moderated by: - Jane Harrison - VP and Associate General Counsel, Corus Entertainment Inc. with - George Burger - Director, VMedia Inc. - Tim Mizrahi - Vice President, Business and Legal Affairs, Netflix - Tom Powers - President, Executive Producer, Open Door Co. Moderator – Shane Schick, Editor at Large, IT World Canada (CanadianCIO.com). Confirmed participants - Jeppe Dorff - Transaction Services| Emerging Business, Rogers Communications - Derek Colfer - business leader, global mobile product innovation at Visa Canada - Lisa Campbell - Deputy Commissioner, Fair Business Practices Branch, Competition Bureau Description: Examining the opportunities and challenges presented by the emerging mobile payments paradigm in Canada, with perspective from many of the players involved in the adoption of and successful deployment of same. Using Games to Drive Productivity Game designer, futurist and bestselling author of Reality is Broken, is harnessing the power of Internet games in new ways to help solve some of the biggest challenges facing our world today and tomorrow. Jane McGonigal - Game designer, futurist and bestselling author of Reality is Broken Food and beverage buffet on the 300 level. CDMN Canada 3.0 2013 welcomes international delegations from Brazil, the Netherlands, Germany, Japan, the US and more. Check out these presentations from a few of our international delegates: Grow Global presentations International presentation – Ricardo Sodre (Brazil) 12:15pm International presentation – Albert Jan Pomper (Netherlands) 12:30pm of over 20 hubs from coast-to-coast provides access to the knowledge, connections, services and support that digital media companies need to successfully innovate and market themselves at home and abroad. CDMN Canada 3.0 is the chance for our Network members to share with a national audience their available products and services, as well as showcase their best and brightest companies. Awards 2013 is the inaugural year for the CDMN Moonshot Awards, established to recognize Canadian companies that create jobs and wealth for Canada through innovation in digital media (ICT and mobile). This is the inaugural year for the awards, designed to acknowledge leading companies that contribute to the CDMN Moonshot goal, that anyone can do anything online by 2017. An expert panel of judges, including Host: CTV Question Period, Correspondent: W5 & Digital News Evangelist, Founder of New Man Media, Kevin Newman; Director at OMERS Ventures, Sid Paquette; Deloitte Canada’s Chief Innovation Officer, Terry Stuart; RocketScope Managing Director and Founder, April Dunford; and, CDMN Managing Director, Dr. Kevin Tuer, will be evaluating the nominees and determining the winners. The ceremony for the first ever CDMN Moonshot Awards will take place on Tuesday, May 14 at CDMN Canada 3.0 at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre in Toronto, Ontario, where awards will be presented in four categories: Finalists: CDMN Digital Media Dynamic Company of the Year Recognizing the Canadian company demonstrating the greatest increase in productivity through the adoption of digital media; three finalists will be recognized. - Magnet Forensics Inc. –. CDMN Digital Media Globalizer of the Year Recognizing the Canadian company demonstrating the greatest increase in international sales, investments or other contributions to the growth of the Canadian digital media industry internationally; three finalists will be recognized. -. CDMN Digital Media Innovator of the Year Recognizing the Canadian company demonstrating the greatest degree of innovation through the adoption of digital media; three finalists will be recognized. - Miovision Technologies Inc. – Inc. – a state-of-the-art medical technology company that provides advanced healthcare solutions for patients with restricted physical development. CDMN Digital Media Company of the Year Recognizing the Canadian company that made the greatest contributions to the growth of the Canadian digital media industry in 2012/2013, selected from entrants to the CDMN Digital Media Innovator, Globalizer and Dynamic award categories. Finalists are Desire2Learn,Vidyard, Magnet Forensics Inc., Axonify and Miovision. All Canadian companies were welcome to apply; self-nominations welcomed. Finalists will gain entry to CDMN Canada 3.0 2013 to attend the awards ceremony at an unpublished discounted rate. By submitting a nomination, the nominee agrees to let CDMN use the nominee’s company name in marketing and promotional material for the CDMN Moonshot Awards and CDMN Canada 3.0. of up to $4,000 in each of the companies participating has already yielded more than $20M return in closed business and investments. Program alumni are on hand at CDMN Canada 3.0 to talk about the impact the program has had on their business. Don’t miss these presentations where they share their experiences, and tips for other companies undertaking international business for the first time. Soft-Landing Program Alumni – Authintic 2:00pm Soft-Landing Program Alumni – Magnet Forensics 2:15pm Soft-Landing Program Alumni – DLI.Tools 2:30pm Building Effective Digital Infrastructure Towards Excellence in Research and Training Organized by the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council Featuring: - Patrick Horgan - Vice President, Manufacturing, Development and Operations, IBM Canada - Tom Jenkins - Executive Chairman and Chief Strategy Officer, Open Text Corporation; SSHRC Council Member - Ted Hewitt - Executive Vice-President, Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council (SSHRC) - Vincent Larivière - Assistant Professor of Information Science at the Université de Montréal - Dr. Wendy Cukier - Vice-President of Research and Innovation at Ryerson University and Founder/Director of Diversity Institute Description: Effective digital infrastructure and scholarship comprises the information and communications technology assets, facilities and services which support research within institutions and across national innovation systems. A coordinated effort among multiple stakeholders must be sustained in order to address the challenges and complexity of processes needed to collect, manage, analyze and share big data. Leaders in government, academia and private sector will address key challenges and opportunities related to digital infrastructure and scholarship, including issues of networks, data, computational infrastructure and research tools. Outcomes will contribute to a better understanding towards the needs for preservation and accessibility of existing and ongoing research data for analysis by users across sectors, and the development of data analysis skills for students to benefit all sectors of the economy. Moderator: - Gavin McGarry - President, Jumpwire Media Confirmed participants: - Mike McCauley - Product Manager, Google - Michael Litt - Co-founder and CEO, Vidyard - Stephen Lake - Co-founder and CEO, Thalmic Labs You’ve read about their stories on Mashable, TechCrunch, BusinessWeek… these young entrepreneurs have enjoyed tremendous success with their disruptive technologies – garnering up to millions of dollars in funding using traditional and non-traditional methods, and, in one case, getting acquired by Google. These dynamic innovators have more than their success in common – they are all graduates of the Y Combinator accelerator program, one of the most competitive programs in North America, if not the world. The other tie that binds them together is that they returned to Canada to grow their businesses, when many other Canucks did not venture back North after their stint in the Valley. Why did they return? What is it about the Canadian marketplace and the true north worker ethic that keeps these companies here? In this sure-to-be lively discussion, we’ll discuss the realities – warts and all – of successfully applying for and subsequently completing a Y Combinator stint, as well as what competitive advantages Canada has for starting and growing successful long-term technology ventures like these ones. What exactly are the problems with rights management? Who is impacted? What are the costs to the organization? In our second session on rights management, we’ll walk through scenarios in the life of digital content. In each, we’ll outline the stages, the players, the systems and the artifacts along with challenges in framing, transferring and managing associated rights. We will highlight the ambiguous terminology and concepts that bog the process down in phone calls, negotiations, conversations and clarifications. We will explore the opportunities for clarity, standardization and disambiguation in agreements As we identify and describe these challenges, solutions will begin to emerge. You will understand the issues in rights management for both the industry and your organization and see how standardization drives out costs. We’ll explore these topics with an industry panel moderated by - Peter Miller - Lawyer & consultant with - Michael Beller - Associate General Counsel at PBS - Mark Le Blanc - Director, Legal Services & Business Affairs, TVO - Michael Turner - Vice President, Business & Legal Affairs, Discovery Communications - Christopher Pang - Senior Corporate Counsel, Shaw Media Lights, Camera, Economic Action: Building Human Capital to Fuel Screen-based Industry Growth If innovation is the driving force of the digital economy, talent is its currency. In its 25th year, the Canadian Film Centre (CFC) continues to play a critical role in the development of Canada’s top screen-based industry talent. What’s more, as found in a 2012 Nordicity report, the CFC’s alumni are creating new companies, products and content which generate measurable growth and economic activity in the sector. But how can Canada maintain and grow its ability to nurture and retain top screen-based industry talent and how can we anticipate future skills, talent and performance needs of the sector? Join CFC representatives, alumni and Nordicity for a discussion on the role of the CFC in the ecology of the screen based sector in Canada, highlights of its economic impacts and key performance indicators as well as a dynamic discussion on the role of the CFC and what the screen-industry needs in order to keep producing (and retaining) top talent. Discussion threads may include: - What is the vision of Canada’s screen-based sector? What is the strategy? How well are we doing? - What kind of talent is propelling screen-based industry today in Canada to meet that vision? - What is the impact on the economy that flows from the CFC graduates? - What broadcasters, entertainment companies, and governments now see in the CFC? - What kind of model for the future is the CFC story? Featuring: - Ana Serrano - Chief Digital Officer, CFC - Peter Lyman - Senior Partner, Nordicity - Julie Whelan - Senior Consultant, Nordicity - Jonas Diamond - CEO, iThentic and Executive Producer, Smiley Guy Studios - Christina Jennings - CEO, Shaftesbury - Mitchell Moffit - From a young age, Mitchell was fascinated by the chance to understand and experience life through its many facets. Whether it was music, art, sport, travel or academics, he wanted to do it all. But it wasn’t until high school that his love for science really began. The opportunity to qualitatively understand the things that [...] From the Arab Spring to the evolution of democracy in Tunisia and Moldova, digital media has birthed radical new ways of communication. International leaders from around the world have gathered in “The Community of Democracies” help address this challenge, utilizing an online platform described by US President Obama as “ strengthening the next generation of democratic leaders, empowering women, and standing up for civil society”. Hugh Ritchie, Director, Government Relations Program, Office of the President at OpenText will share the journey that lead to the creation of the truly Canadian Community of Democracies where past leaders of Democratic countries including Canada, Romania, Hungary, United States and others gather online to connect and share critical information and advice with leaders of emerging democracies. - Hugh Ritchie - Director, Government Relations Program, Office of the President - Open Text Moderator: - Scott Fraser - Director General, Global Business Opportunities, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade Confirmed participants: - Simon Smits - Vice Minister for Foreign Trade, Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Netherlands - Lars Hansen - Head of International Business Cooperation, Innovations-Zentrum Berlin Management GmbH, Internationale Incubator - Masaaki Tanaka - Deputy Director-General, Science & Technology Policy Bureau, Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology from Japan - Marcos Vinícius de Souza - Secretariat for Innovation, Ministry of Development, Industry and Foreign Trade - MDIC, Brazil Canada 3.0 is a place for not only the top digital media minds from Canada to gather. It attracts delegations from around the world, anxious to unearth opportunities for their companies in our marketplace, but also to share opportunities and discover common solutions to common challenges for Canadian companies looking to grow global. This panel will feature Robert Simon, Sr. Managing Partner of the BDC Venture Capital IT Fund along with Paul Rochester, CEO of recently acquired Layer7 Technologies of Vancouver, discussing the evolution of the company; from the initial challenges, successful growth and ultimate exit through an acquisition by CA Computer Associates. A fascinating case study of a venture capital backed company funded from inception by BDC Venture Capital. - Robert Simon - Senior Managing Partner, IT Fund, BDC Venture Capital - Paul Rochester - CEO, Layer7 Technologies Internet TV: The Television of the Future Reed Hastings - Founder and CEO, Netflix Michael Serbinis - Chief Executive Officer, Kobo NASA workshop that shares with government communicators and government agencies best practices and proved success tactics to implementing and effectively using social media to rally public support, impact public perception of the relevance of your organization, and gather grassroots input to influence policy development. Jason Townsend - NASA's Deputy Social Media Manager As a follow up to Sheryl Sandberg’s recent Lean In movement, this panel will feature successful women in the technology industry who are all navigating through their careers and figuring out the most effective way in which to step up, lean in, balance it all and give back! Instead of reiterating the facts about the lack of women in leadership roles and in the tech industry, this session will focus on ‘what can be done’ as opposed to ‘what’s wrong’. Themes addressed will include: - Working Life; Facing workplace stereotypes faced, the ‘self-doubt’ syndrome, success & likability correlation, practical tips on negotiating, and balancing work / family - Academia: Motivating young women to pursue STEM careers, and preparing young women in the classroom for their careers - Mentorship / Sponsorship: Identifying and working with the right mentor, whether men or women - Call to action: What is absolutely necessary for both men and women to do today to start tackling the issues at hand. Moderated by - Amber Mac – emcee - Bestselling social media author, speaker, TV host, and entrepreneur Confirmed participants - Kate Brodock - President, Girls in Tech & Executive Director of Digital & Social Media at Syracuse University - Karen Schulman Dupuis - Manager, Digital Communications, MaRS Discovery District - Dr. Gerri Sinclair - President, The Gerri Sinclair Group - Sarah Shortreed - Digital and Mobile Technology Executive In our third session on rights management, we’ll explore the technology ecosystem and how the components of the production and broadcast management systems address rights requirements. From simple text boxes to highly configurable rights administration systems, each environment has mechanisms for capturing and acting on rights. The key to all of this is metadata – the information about assets and the embodiment of that information in ways that technology can interpret and act on. In definitions and examples that everyone can understand, you’ll learn the crucial central role that metadata plays in the rights world. Explore these topics with an industry panel moderated by - Seth Earley - Earley & Associates with - Janet Gardner - President of Perspective Media Group - John Larrabee - VP Americas, Pilat Media - Robin Macrae - Information Architect, Earley & Associates Club Penguin: A Canadian Success Story Lane Merrifield - Co-founder of Club Penguin The Canada Media Fund presents a showcase of innovative Canadian productions that combine content and technology to redefine viewer interactivity. This selection of projects confirms how television is an ideal medium to lead the way toward heightened levels of engagement and foster new relationships with the audience. - Stéphane Cardin - Vice-President, Industry and Public Affairs, Canada Media Fund Confirmed participants - Andre Boysen - EVP Marketing, Digital Identity Evangelist, SecureKey - Cedric Jeannot - I Think Security – CEO and Security Expert - Rita Whittle - Senior Director, Treasury Board of Canada - Cyber Authentication Renewal and Federating Identity, CIOB, TBS, - Kevana Bamford - Provincial IDIM Program | Office of the CIO – BC - John Tarnowski - Associate Vice President, North American Money Movement (Online/Mobile) at TD Bank Group Description: There is an identity ecosystem emerging in Canada that is unique in the world. It is a multi-enterprise service that is focused on making more meaningful services available online while at the same time making it easier for users to enroll, access and control information shared by these services. Things like easy access to online government services, opening a bank account on the internet, proving your identity for new services online, registering your child at school or participating in an education portal are becoming possible. The service model for the Internet is moving from app-centric to user-centric. The current password model of authentication needs to evolve. Every web service needs to make a choice between making their credentials stronger by adding multifactor authentication (BYOD) or partnering to get authentication from a trusted provider (BYOC). What are the motivators for change? What does this mean for users and web services? What is the economic model? How to improve the security and privacy model for users? What is happening now and what is on the horizon? In this final session, we’ll apply best practices for deriving, defining and agreeing upon terms that could constitute standard rights management constructs. Attendees will be grouped and given assignments and instructions to create a rights management framework to meet the requirements of a typical transaction. We’ll put the exercises into a larger framework for attendees to see how rights management metadata, controlled vocabularies and ontologies are systematically derived and validated. The output of this working session will assist attendees in understanding and refining approaches to real world problems in their organizations. In a hands-on interactive workshop, you’ll learn about the following topics: - Real world scenario and use case review - Steps to the taxonomy development process - Interactive exercises developing terms - Validation approaches - Next steps in the industry initiative and formation of the rights working group The workshop will be facilitated by - Seth Earley - Earley & Associates - Stephanie Lemieux - Senior Consultant, Earley and Associates - Robin Macrae - Information Architect, Earley & Associates Building Around People Steve Irvine - Group Director, Global Marketing Solutions - Facebook Canada “Every two days now, we create as much information as we did from the dawn of civilization up until 2003.” – Eric Schmidt Join Steve Irvine as he examines the more personal side of social engagement. In this session, we’ll explore the evolution of media, the concept of identity, and how social influence can create unique experiences in an increasingly complex, data-filled world. Lane Merrifield - Co-founder of Club Penguin Following his keynote address, Club Penguin co-founder Lane Merrifield answers attendee questions on the breakout stage on the tradeshow floor. Jian Ghomeshi - Broadcaster, CBC Radio; Producer, Jian Ghomeshi Productions Jeremy Butteriss - Director, Strategic Partnerships, Google Canada - Dr. Kevin Tuer - Managing Director, Canadian Digital Media Network See the sights of Toronto, network with fellow attendees, and learn about some of the digital media happenings in Canada’s largest city. From business incubators to broadcast facilities and production houses, these tours will give attendees a backstage pass to some of the coolest and most sought after digital media hotspots in Canada! Tours take place on Wednesday May 15th, from 4:15 – 5:00 pm. *Pre-registration is required. Follow the links to our Community page to log-in and sign up. Huffington Post / AOL Canada - The Huffington Post Canada news room - Brainstorm hubs - Games areas - Our boardroom/yoga studio - Creative, open space layout - 2 floors with departments ranging from Sales, Executive, Marketing and Content - Exposed brick and modern design - NapQuest resting room - AOL Branded interiors Screen Industries Research and Training Centre (SIRT) / Pinewood Studios The Screen Industries Research and Training Centre (SIRT) is dedicated to fostering collaborative innovation in Ontario’s film, gaming and television industries. SIRT works with industry, academic, and government partners to conduct collaborative research and provide Ontario’s screen-based professionals the training needed to build the province’s competitive advantage. SIRT was established by Sheridan College at Pinewood Toronto Studios in early 2010. Startup Drinks is holding a special Canada 3.0 version of their event on May 15 at Hotel Ocho.

One thing that I notice every year in other sewing bloggers' resolutions (ha! I say "every year" as if I've been doing this for years, but no, this is only the second time I've been participating in the online sewing community) is the desire to get rid of stash fabrics. Somehow, despite our best intentions, we all manage to collect more fabric than we can sew, and that takes up valuable room in both our sewing spaces and our minds! So when Emily aka EmSewCrazy contacted me and suggested that we host a stashbusting sewalong challenge for 2013, I was super excited. I've participated in other sewalongs and challenges before (like Me Made May and the Sew Weekly) and had tons of fun, but I've never started one before, but 2013 is the year of trying new things, so here goes! Wait, what's this all about? The 2013 Stashbusting Sewalong is a casual sewalong whose goal is to encourage us to reduce the size of our stashes. If you've got more fabric than you know what to do with, join Emily and me as we systematically purge our stashes by sewing items to fit a series of themes. We've got a whole schedule that you can follow if you need that kind of structure, or you can just join us. If it takes a village to raise a child, well, it takes an online community to bust a stash! Here's how you can join us! - Leave a comment here or on Emily's blog with your pledge: "I, _______,commit to using ____ pieces of stash fabric in 2013. Additional option: I also commit to not buying any new fabric/patterns/ notions except for _______ until ______." -, and -! Emily and I have a very helpful Pinterest board going with all sorts of ideas for using up scraps, so you can check it out if you need inspiration. It's up to you if you want to post every month about your project on your blog, but we encourage you to interact with your fellow stashbusters, whether it's through Flickr or blog comments. Besides documenting our own projects, Emily and I will also post round-ups each month of your makes so that you can see all of your fellow stashbusters' projects gathered into one place. Lastly, if you want to proudly proclaim to the world (or just to the people who have to share a living space with!) that you are Finally Doing Something about that stash, you can grab this nifty button for your blog's sidebar: The button features a Sewasaurus Rex tackling a piece of stash fabric in a rather, uhh...extreme manner. It was done by one of my former chemistry students; you can check out more of Jen's amazing artwork here, or you can contact her here. Yeah, yeah, that's great, but what about you? Are you just going to laugh at our stashes and not show your own? I've got a whole lot of stash fabric that I need to sew up before we move in June, so I am definitely going for serious stashbusting this year. Bonus points to me if I manage to make things that also work for the Historical Sew Fortnightly! Look for a post tomorrow featuring my own guilt-inducing piles and what I plan to make from them. What about Walnut? Is he stashbusting too? Nope. Walnut's all about saving all the stash fabric for sleeping on. Isn't that just like a cat, to be diametrically opposed to everything you want to accomplish? "I, Gaenor, commit to using at least 6 pieces of stash fabric in 2013, especially the ones I bought to make summer dresses for my small (female) human beings. (Also been meaning to delurk and say thanks for giving me plenty to read this last week since I stumbled across your blog, and for motivating me to actually start making clothes rather than just thinking about it). I, Cari Homemaker, commit to using at least 25 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. This should make my husband very happy (or at least moderately relieved) This sewalong is such a great idea to make those stash pieces of fabric just as exciting (or even more so) than buying new stuff. I, Morgan of Crab&Bee, pledge to use up at least 6 pieces of stashed fabric in 2013. I don't have a huge stash but it's outgrown my even-less-huge closet shelf! And I definitely keep tiny pieces, so you had me at "scraps". Thanks for setting up this fun challenge! I, Jane, commit to using at least eight pieces of stash fabric for dressmaking and as many smaller pieces as I can to make bags, cushions and purses. Great idea Cindy! x ...should have added "in 2013" ! I, Melissa, commit to using at least 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. This is such a great idea and it looks like it will be fun! My stash is getting a little on the scary side...I've been pretty good about not adding too much to it last year, but I need to get some of it used up. What a great idea, Cindy – I’m in! I, Andrea of Stitch Parade, commit to using at least 15 pieces of stashed fabric in 2013. I, Heather, commit to using at least 12 pieces from my remnant stash in 2013, including at least 1 knit. This is my first sew-a-long, and my first real foray into the sewasaurus community. Your blog has been inspiration and motivation to me. Thanks! Ooh, fun! Somehow stash-busting seems way more fun in a group! I, Sonja of Ginger Makes,commit to using six pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I, Elisha,commit to using an undetermined amount pieces of stash fabric (and other things I've thrifted for sewing purposes, including bandannas and tablecloths) in 2013. I also commit to not buying any new fabric/patterns/ notions except for lining fabric, maybe some fabric for cargoes for my husband, zippers and buttons if I really need them, a couple of .99 cent big four patterns (including my husbands aforementioned cargo shorts pattern), and really hard to pass up thrift store items, until 2014! I'd been planning on stash busting anyway, so this sew along is one I can actually get behind! I, Elizabeth (aka Sully Liz or The Cataloguer), commit to using up at least half of my stash fabric in 2013 (approx 8 fabrics). I also commit to not buying any new fabric except to fill out a garment which is using up a stash fabric, until June 2013." I, Sara Mayo (blogless), commit to using at least 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I also commit to only buying new fabric/lining/thread/zippers/etc as necessary to do one project at a time. Patterns I'm still allowed to buy. I, Trisha from Made By Trisha, commit to using 10 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. Stashbusting as a group sounds like a good motivator! Radness. I have just rebuilt my stash so I'm more than happy to jump ofn this train to awesome town. I, Amanda, will rock out to stash busting by using 5 pieces of truly epic stash fabric in 2013. I am so IN!! I'll have to take a good look around the sewing room and decide how many pieces I'll commit to this year. Maybe I should commit by yardage?? Or weight?? That said, I, Katie from Kadiddlehopper, will commit to stashbusting an as yet to be determined amount from my stash in 2013, and also to not purchasing new fabric if equivalent yardage has not already been used. OK, it's official. As in, I posted it, so I am officially committed.). Oooh--I like this! I, Jenny of Bobbins and Whimsy, commit to using up 75% of my stashed fabric in 2013. I also commit to buying no new fabric except for linings and such to use up my stashed fabric--and also I really want something emerald green to wear to a wedding in April :) But that's it. 75% !!! You are an inspiration... Great idea! Since I've added at least ten new fabrics to my stash since we moved and haven't been able to sew a single stitch, I'd say a bit of commitment is in order (once my machines are up and running again, of course). I, Jennifer of The Musings of a Dedicated Housefiancee, do hereby pledge to sew no less than eight fabrics from my current stash, including at least one reserved for my fiance (you know, that guy that buys it all!). This is such a good idea - I love your plan! I don't know if I can commit but this is a great challenge! Shame induced stash busting. I love the idea, and I'm already on it - count me in! At the end of the year I actually fondled and measured every single piece of fabric in my stash (not including muslin and scraps) - 82.6m. It's my goal to get down to 50m by 2013 end. I might even join in a few of your themed months. I, Melanie, commit to using 30m of stash fabric in 2013. Lock Me In. I love this plan and I'm in! I, Barbara, commit to using at least 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I'll try not to buy any new patterns for myself, but I may buy other sizes for other people I sew for. Thank you for hosting! This is a great idea. It ties in nicely with my New Year plans as well. So, I, Giggles in the Sun, commit to using 26 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I also commit to not buy any new fabric until September except for if I find the perfect 'cape' fabric (and lining) to make for this coming winter. I feel like I need to give myself an additional incentive though, maybe a nice meal in September or a daytrip somewhere, hmmm I, Michelle, commit to using as much stash fabric as possible in 2013. I will considerably slow down the pace of additions to my stash. Since I'm having a baby in 3 months, I don't know how aggressive I can be in my de-stashing, but I really have some great fabrics and ideas that need to be made into realities. Hopefully I can make a meaningful dent in the stash even with the new baby! I love the idea and am glad to know I'm not the only stasher! I, SeamstressErin, pledge to use 18 pieces of stash fabric this year. I have to say that it's not going to be that hard since my stash takes an entire bookshelf (and then some). But I'm committed! I'm also doing the Historical Sew Fortnightly so this ties in well. I, Rachelle, commit to using fifteen pieces of stash fabric in 2013. Additional option: I also commit to not buying any new fabric/patterns/ notions except for items needed to complete projects until 2014. I'm also working on the same concept with my yarn stash. I really need to finish the spreadsheet with my fabric stash so I know exactly what I have. I've already used 12 so I think I can update this to using at least 20 pieces of fabric. Brilliant brilliant idea! Even as a relatively new sewer, my stash is starting to get out of my control :) so here it is: I, Sophie of Monbouton's Needles, pledge to use at least one piece of stash fabric for every month of 2013. I will be perusing your Pinterest boards for inspiration! This is great! I could never commit to not buying new fabric, but I feel confident to succeed in a challange like this. So count me in! I, Johanna of projects by me,commit to using at least 6 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I'm in! My fabric stash is completely out of control, it's literally flowing over. I can't even remember what's in there... I, Cherise from VintageFollies,commit to using at least 2 pieces of stash fabric in 2013! I, Janelle of Sew Hopeful, commit to using at least 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I also commit to no new pattern purchases except anything released by Sewingcake.com and no new fabric purchases except for my couture dress class until I have used up said 12 pieces of stash fabric. Great idea ladies. I'm looking forward to the fun. Both my pattern and my fabric stash is somewhat out of hand. "I, Niamh,commit to using at least 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013." I'm afraid I can't commit to the second, i'm going to china and I kinda need to buy fabric there. Let the stashbusting begin! "I, Dottie Doodle, commit to using 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013." Thank you for this - I'd already made a stash busting resolution, but having structure and a group to sew with will make it much more fun! I'm in! I have a serious problem with stashing, so this should help! Thanks for hosting :) I, Shivani (of pins & needles), commit to using at least 10 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. (I'd like to commit to not adding to the stash, but I know myself too well.) So now I need to list it all, and rediscover what I actually have! "I, Jessiekay ,commit to using 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013 and will post about it on my blog. This will force me to sew! I've added your button and will post about it soon. Great idea thanks! I'll join as well. I have a lot of fabric and really should use more of it. I, Lynn of You sew girl!, commit to using at least 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I also commit to using at least 10 patterns from the stash. Stash includes any fabric or patterns on hand prior to the date of this pledge, 15 Jan 2013. I, Amanda of The Adventures of Lady Smijubug, commit to using at least 25 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I also commit to not buying any new sewing supplies beyond those necessary for stash-busting projects until January of 2014. Projects to be posted here: This Is a fantastic idea. I won't be taking the pledge though, since I've only been sewing for 2 years and my stash is still quite small. I'm also trying to do the historical sew fortnightly, and there's no way I can do that without buying new fabric. The sewasaurus drawing is awesome! P.S, I'm considerably taller than most mice so I'm not afraid of Walnut. I think cats are adorable. I, Jennifer of FernKnits, commit to using at least 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I also commit to not buying anymore fabric until I have used up these 12 pieces of stash fabric. This is awesome! I want to take the pledge even though my stash is small. I think I really just love the cool button, though! This is my first time on your blog, and I like it! I, Chelsea of Scrapyard Butterfly, commit to making at least one project a month from stashed fabric in 2013. This is my first sew along, and hopefully the kick in the pants I need to get sewing again. Awesome! I, lyndle, commit to making at least 8 garments from stash fabrics and patterns in 2013. I also commit to pruning and organising my pattern collection. I also commit to not buying a fabric unless I already know I require for a particular garment and there is no suitable fabric in stash. (I know this sounds lame but its the best I can make myself do, right now! I also commit to recording honestly all my spending on sewing supplies during 2013. OK, I give in! I Angela Denny commit to making at least 5 items from stash fabrics in 2013. I also commit to self drafting or using patterns that I already own! This sounds like a silly thing to ask, but I'm not sure I can commit to a whole year of stashbusting, I don't think my stash is big enough for that! Can I, and others still participate in the activities from time to time? Of course you can! We are happy to have any and all sewists join us, regardless of stash size. The goal here is to sew with fabric, and not just store it, so feel free to join in whichever challenge or theme you see fit! I love my stash, but there are definitely opportunities for busting lurking in there. I pledge to sew 3/4 of all projects in 2013 from Stash. Fabric acquistion will not outweigh or include more yardage than the stash sewing in 2013. THIS is going to hurt... "I,Tiffany McGuire aka the Sewing Amazon,commit to using 10 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I also commit to not buying any new and non-essential fabric/patterns/ notions until all 10 pieces are used up (unless it's relevant to one of the 10 projects)." I think we may need to start shipping out tea and support t-shirts to keep us relaxed and on the right path when our hands start itching to buy just that one, BEAUTIFUL, MUST-HAVE piece of fabric... Just a thought!! Great idea!! This is definitely something that's shared by most of us. amazonsews.blogspot.com This sounds like fun! I Carolyn, of Handmade by Carolyn, commit to using at least two, hopefully more! pieces of fabric from the stash, each month for this year. I, Towanda, commit to using as many as possible pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I am committing to spend at least 15 minutes in my sewing room 4-5 days a week. I also committing to not buying any new fabric except for fabric that I need to finish a collection or special one time pieces that I can't easily find again. Oooh, that commitment to be in the sewing room for at least 15 minutes is such a good idea! You know what, I don't do "sewalongs" much because for some reason I dislike the constraining idea of it. And I'm super neurotic about jumping my project queue, just can't do it. But this is a challenge I can get behind, mostly because I've already gone a whole month without new fabric. So here it is: I, Molly,commit to using LOTS (specific numbers are also too constricting!) pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I also commit to not buying any new fabric except for linings and notions until June (I can't guarantee I won't laps around my birthday...). Also, I just really want that blog button... haha! I, Suzy, commit to using as many pieces as possible of stash fabric in 2013. I am commiting to not buying any fabric just because its cheap and only getting fabric I have a clear idea for and is a natural fabric (no more polyester knits!) I, Carol,commit to using as many pieces of stash fabric as I possibly can in 2013. I also commit to not buying any new fabric/patterns/ notions except for SWAP until June 30, 2013. I started destashing late last year, so this suits me perfectly. I, Sarah, commit to using stash fabric for at least 50% of my sewing projects in 2013. I was planning to try to make a dent in the monster fabric closet of doom anyway, but now it's set down in righting, so I have to, haha. I likely won't follow along with the monthly challenges, but the sewasaurus button was too cute not to join up! I, Gretchen, commit to using at least 16 pieces of stash fabric for my sewing projects in 2013. I also commit to using 4 pieces of stash fabric for every 1 new piece I may not be able to resist buying. This is my first time posting here, but have been enjoying your blog for a long time. Stash busting (fabric and patterns) is one of my two main goals for the year (the other is fit), so I'm excited to join your sewalong! Oh heck yes! Gotta love a challenge when there are themes involved! ;-) I, Kat,commit to using as many pieces of stash fabric as possible in 2013. I also commit to not buying any new fabric/patterns/ notions except for things that I don't have and need to finish projects (e.g. interfacing) during 2013. I am SO in! I shall have to have a think about how much I want to use and come back with my pledge. But after a tidy and measure of my stash over the holidays I'm a little shocked by how much I've accumulated! I don't have a blog, so cannot nab the wondermous button. *sigh* But, I DO have a stash that far exceeds my life expectancy, as do many of us, so I will publicly commit to join the cause. To wit: I, Caroleleah, commit to using at least 6 stash fabrics in 2013, from whatever stash I own prior to this date. I also commit to not buying a single yard new unless I've sewn up two yards in exchange. One in, two out. (A purchasing loophole!! lol!) I shall record ALL purchases and makes, to keep me honest. Notions or lining fabrics will be allowed if they really honestly cannot be located in my stash. I will TRY to stop buying patterns, once the current auctions off of eBay have ended. *grins* There, I've publicly committed. (EEEK!) Oh boy am I in! I may need to make an adjustment to the vow though. I, tigergirl,commit to using a lot of pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I also commit to not buying any new fabric/patterns/notions except for those that I need immediately to finish current projects until August. Perfect timing - I have just restarted my blog with the hope that it will motivate me to tackle my stash. Well here goes: I, Taracat,commit to using at least 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I also commit to not buying any new fabric or patterns until I have used at least six pieces of fabric and four new patterns from my stash. I, Alice of heteronormative lovefest,commit to using 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. This is great! I needed some structure to my sewing. And my sewing room is destined to become a kid's room soonish, so de-stashing a bit is getting to be a higher and higher priority. Internet camaraderie for the win! I, Jen, of madeonthecouch,commit to using twelve pieces of stash fabric (and at least five balls of yarn)in 2013! As a person from parents who hoard, I'm terrified one day I'll wake up and discover a mountain of fabric in my house that's destroyed because it has been there for too long! Bah. Since I bought like seven different fabrics when I was on holiday in Borneo recently, I have an uphill battle ahead of me I think haha! Most excellent as sewing up the stash is also my goal for 2013. I Heather of handmadebyheather commit to using at least 12 pieces of fabric from the stash. Bonus points if more pieces are sewn up. I also pledge to actually sew up a few of those precious pieces that have been marinating in the stash too long. I, Arellis, of SewOpenSundays, commit to sewing at least half of my stash on 2013. I also will not buy any new fabric unless I really need it for a specific project I am working on. Oh, and if I buy fabric 2 existing pieces need to be used first (to keep the stash down). First sewalong and I'm very excited, especially since I really need to stop accumulating and start sewing! I, Silvia of Sil's Fab Knitblog, commit to sewing at least 10 projects with stashed fabric in 2013. Bonus points for knitting up some stashed yarn. I will try with all my might not to purchase fabric until I've used up some of the garage stash. I, Christina of Dolcideleria, hesitate to actually make a commitment due to my tendency to sign up for everything! But it's already my intention to do lots of sewing in 2013 from fabric I already have (especially since 2012 seemed to be the year of buying fabric). 2013 is going to be the year I finish things, whether it's items for my Wardrobe Improvement Project or any of the 8 quilts currently in progress. I have plans for several small projects (laptop covers) that will also draw from my stash. I don't know that I'll be able to participate in many of the awesome sounding challenges and contests, but I'll be lurking and watching and cheering you on! Hahaha it seems we have a lot of commitment phobics here! But like I said, putting it out there publicly for some accountability can do wonders. 2012 was also my fabric-buying year, so I am with you on 2013 being the year of actually finishing stuff! And wow, 8 quilts in progress! Feel free to lurk...the challenges aren't a requirement, just a helpful structure for those of us who need it! I, Jessica, commit to using 8 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I also commit to getting rid of fabrics I'm never going to sew by donating them, giving them away, selling them on ebay, stuffing them in other projects as fill, or by employing the good ol' garbage can. I also commit to adding no more than 5 fabrics to the stash. Fabric purchased with a plan not included. :) Jessica I like all you idea...except the garbage can! The thrift stores do not do so well with donated fabrics, but check out your local church. They always have one grand all-church yard sale/bazaar and would love your donation. I am sure that whatever denomination it is they would welcome your cast-offs and give a picker like me a chance at them! :) I, Debi, commit to using 10 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. Yay! I, Holly,commit to using 6 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. Additional option: I also commit to not buying any new fabric/patterns until I'm down to only 4 pieces of unused fabric. I also might begin with the vibrant color because I have some red jersey I want to use to test out combining a pencil skirt pattern and a top pattern into a dress. I'm not sure I have small pieces of fabric. I usually get rid of them. I also vow to finish up the recovering of a chair project that I began two weeks ago. I meant I vow to finish the chair before the end of January. In place of the small pieces project. I, Sharon of Petite and Sewing, commit to sew ¾ of all projects in 2013 from Stash. Fabric purchases will be less than the yardage used during the stash sewing in 2013. I haven't got much of a stash (okay, maybe I'm kidding myself just a bit) but this sounds like fun! "I, Meraj of Threaded Dances, commit to using 8 pieces of stash fabric in 2013." I LOVE THIS BLOG BUTTON!!! also, I love this challenge, so count me in! I, Sally (thequirkypeach), commit to using at least twelve pieces of stash fabric in 2013. For every completed stash piece OVER twelve, I will buy myself something delicious at Starbucks! (now that's motivation right there :) Thanks for hosting this! Also, thank you former chemistry student Jen for being an awesome artist! For better or for worse I, Kat of All the whimsical things, commit to using as many pieces as possible of stash fabric in 2013. I commit to not buying any new fabric or patterns (with exceptions) until June 2013. I, Alison of Acorn Cottage, commit to using only pieces of stash fabric for my garment sewing in 2013. I will only purchase whatever notions, thread, interfacing and suchlike are needed to complete said garments. I also commit to finally getting the stash organised, and out of the bins boxes and bags that are scattered all over the house! I'm in! My pledge is to use at least 3 metres of fabric from my stash for every metre I buy throughout 2013. I Hanny Bobbins commit to using ten items from my stash in 2013! I, Laura (of a currently post-less blog), commit to using at minimum six pieces of stash fabric in 2013. And hopefully I will! I don't think that I finished more than four projects in 2012! (And some of those were... possibly alterations, depending on how that is defined). I, Meris (aka the Fabric Alchemist), commit to using at least one piece of stash fabric in every sewing project in 2013. I also commit to not buying new fabric in 2013 for stand alone projects. New fabrics must be used alongside stash fabric to complete the larger project (e.g. a costume). This comment has been removed by the author. This comment has been removed by the author. I Shawn (creativeinspiraciones), commit to using a lot of pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I will make my best attempt to use stash fabric before purchasing any additional fabric. I do not have many pieces larger than fat quarters, so if the project requires a bigger chunk I can add to it by way of purchase. However, I am not aloud to start any new projects that require all new fabic. If I do not have any of the material for the project in my stash, I can not add it to the to do list. I also commit to not buying any new fabric/patterns/notions except for must haves to complete a project until all of my current projects are completed. I Alethia commit to using more of my stash fabric in 2013. I will try my best not buy any new fabric unless I really need it for a specific project I am working on. If I buy fabrics for every yard of fabric I buy 2 yards from my stash will be used or give away (to keep the stash down). I, Nikki of Nikki's Stitches, commit to using at least 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I'd love to say I'll not buy any more, can I qualify that I'll not buy any full price - only if they're in a sale? :-) I'll even use at least one piece for un-selfish sewing, ie for someone else! I, The Urban Pheasant, pledge to stash bust at least 1 well aged stash piece each month this year. I will start by making yo-yo's with tiny cotton bits while watching hockey games (they're BAAAACK!) this year. I need at least 1339 yo-yos for a quilt, so let the stash busting begin! I'm late to the party but... I'm in! I, Nic of The Reckless Needle, pledge to make 12 projects using stash fabric in 2013. I haven't been sewing long enough (and don't have enough of a monster stash) to commit to not buying any more fabric but I'm moving in two months and there won't be as much space in the new house for fabric! Thanks for the great idea! me, Riet, (blog memadeland@wordpress.com)pledge to use stash for 12 projects in 2013. Although it's gonna be dificult finding time after my baby will be born in april. Knitting up stash doesn't count I guess... :-) It will be my very first sewalong, I'm looking forward to it! Can I join in?! Just found your fantastic blog and am now following. Can't wait to join in the stash busting! "I, Alison of Heavenly Handmades, commit to using at least 50% of my very considerable abount of stash fabric in 2013. I also commit to not buying any new fabric/patterns/ notions except for interfacing until at least 25% has been used up." What a great idea! This was already one of my goals for this year and a sewalong is going to make it so much more fun - and motivational. :) I, Diana, (@ writeforward.wordpress.com)commit to using at least 12 pieces of my fabric stash in 2013 (with hopes to completely deplete it, and I will not buy any fabric unless it is absolutely necessary. I've been meaning to get off my blogging backside and get my sewing blog going. Killing off some of my stash in the process can only be a Good Thing. Considering I got fabric for every single gifting holiday last year, if I don't do something soon, the storage bins are going to explode. I, V of SometimesSheSews.blogspot.com,commit to using a very unambitious 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. Additional option: I also commit to not buying any new fabric not counting interfacing, fabrics already purchased this year or accent fabric needed to complete a project. Patterns, notions and sewing tools are not counted or considered stash items, and will be bought as the need/sale arises. Sounds fun! I, Megan, commit to using 6 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. “I, Sølvi of delfinelise, commit to using mostly pieces of fabric from my stash in 2013. I aim to use 11 pieces for myself and 5 for others the first 6 months, and I will revise how I´ve done every month. Depending on how I do, I will commit to more, or less, for the last 6 months of 2013.” Wohoo! Thank you ever so much for hosting this! :-) I love this idea, but have way too much going on (and one super all-consuming sewing project) to start this off now--would I be able to jump in mid-year? You can jump in at any time you want! It's very open-ended so as to accommodate all levels of sewist and stash! Ok, I'm in then! Although it'll be awhile before I can fully participate with the monthly challenges. "I, Becky, commit to using 6 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I also commit to not buying any new fabric, other than interfacing/notions, things for the wedding, or absolutely necessary home dec fabric. In addition, I commit to evaluating my current stash and getting rid of the things that I honestly can't find a use for."! I, Chloe of Buttonandneedle, commit to making one stash busting project each month in 2013! And to think very carefully before buying new patterns - my biggest temptation! Can't wait to see those bins start to empty - thanks for the challenge! I, Leah, commit to using 15 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. Additional option: I also commit to not buying any new fabric/patterns/ notions except for needles and thread and zippers until July (my birthday month!). Holy hell do I need this. I will do this. I WILL. I CAN DO IT. Thank you for this, Cindy and Emily, it's so on! strugglesewsastraightseam.wordpress.com A bit late, but better late than never, right? ;) I, Alessa of, commit to using as many pieces of stash fabric as I manage in 2013, making at least three in four makes from fabrics already in my stash. I also commit to only buy one new length of fabric for every three finished stash-busting projects until my birthday in July. I sooo need to do this. But since I like to pick up fabric during my travels I can't commit to not ever buying new fabric this year. So hopefully I can participate only in the stash-busting part of the challenge. SO here it is: I, Javie,commit to using at least 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I know I could exceed this but want to make this at least doable for me. I, Lara,commit to using 10 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I also commit to not buying any new fabric/patterns/ notions except for fabric for a swimsuit (needed for Hawaii – see previous post) and zips until I have at least halved my current pile! Sometimes it just takes that little reminder/ push to remind me of what I should have been doing all along. I am going to save so much time and money with this, thanks! Lara x Oh man I should join this challenge. I really should but I know my limits lol. I am sewing more out of stash than before so at least I'm there partly in spirit hey? I, sarah commit to using at least 24 pieces of fabric out of my stash in 2013. I have to. I'm running out of space for it all :/ I make no promises not to replace them however....... Whoa, I am so late for this, but I really, really need it! Wonderful idea! I, aleah of notimetosew.wordpress.com, commit to sewing from the stash by default this whole year. I furthermore commit to not buying any fabric I haven't touched in person first (I'm saying no to online fabric buying), or that I don't have a concrete plan for. Let's bust! I, Bailey of knitsnbobs.blogspot.com ,commit to using at LEAST 10 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. Yep, I'm in on this one, I'm just getting back into my sewing room and I need to sew from the huge stash I have. I'll commit to not purchase new fabric in 2013 except what is necessary to finish a project I'm working on. This is just what I need to get my juices flowing!! I, Kelley, of simplesewist.blogspot.com.au, commit to using 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. Oh this is just what I was looking for! I Penny, of Hands Sew Full (handssewfull.blogspot.ca) commit to using up as much of my "hoarders look innocent compared to me" stash as possible in 2013. I also commit to restricting my fabric and notion etc purchases to solely what is needed to finish a stash project and possibly a few particularly incredible "extras" that may never come my way again. Thanks for hosting! I just found your challenge; I'm in! "I, Sharon, commit to reducing my stash fabric by 30 yards in 2013. I also commit to not buying any new fabrics or notions --except those explicitly needed to finish a current project -- until the end of the year." Just stumbled across your lovely blog. What a great idea - count me in (goodness knows, I need the help!) I, Jude (aka Verdant), commit to using up at least two crates worth of fabric (about 20 pieces) and all the loose bits on the floor. I also commit to finish each project and not leaving any languishing a year waiting for sleeves or buttonholes. Thanks for the inspiration and incentive :-) "I, Edris,commit to using 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I also commit to buying fabric/patterns/ notions on a as needed basis and not for the sheer purpose of hoarding:) Ladies... I re-sew-lutely commit to this great idea :) "I, Claire of the blog sew-incidentally.com, commit to using 9 pieces of stash fabric in 2013." These stash pieces will be used in sewing match-up alongside my commitment to making 7 garments and 2 accessories for Karen's of "Did You Make That?" 2013 Sewlutions - In the Jar... this year I mean to "put my money where my mouth is!" I, Rachel,commit to using 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. For this year, I will only buy necessary fabric for any historical costuming, but it will be used right away and only bought on an as needed basis after the project has been completely planned out and I check my stash first to make sure that I don't already have something that would work. I think that's reasonable enough and I can keep to it. I'm not including notions in that, just fabric. Notions are a little trickier. I, Becca, commit to using at least 10 pieces of stash fabric in 2013, plus clean out at least 8 remnant pieces. I also want to use at least 7 of my current pattern stash. I'm not going to say that I won't buy more fabric, because I'm not overloaded stash wise, but I do want to rotate out some of my older pieces to make room for new pretties and also expand my sad wardrobe. I, Anneloes, (aka Oes), commit to using up at least 10 pieces of stash. I also commit to finish each project and not buying any new fabric till june, except for lining, batting and sutch. Since i'm due to give birth to our first in 2 weeks i hope to join the mothly themes and challanges, but i will be reasonable and kind to my self for the months march, april and may. I have no idea if i will be ableto produce anything in those first months. (I'm making something now for febuary, so unless the baby arrives in 3 days I'll manage the febuary challange) A bit late to the party here but I really wanted to think about what I wanted to do. I didn't want to set myself up for using a particular number of pieces of stash as I'm not al that productive and that seemed like a way to fail! And I've set myself a goal involving numbers already. But I DO want to use up stash pieces. So, after ponderification and mullingness, I, Joy of Charm of Magpies, commit to starting ALL of my crafting projects in 2013 (sewing, knitting, jewellery making, etc) from materials I own RIGHT NOW and turning to stash before external sources for all notions where possible. The one exception is my annual ball dress and any other event-specific garments that may have requirements my stash can't fulfill. I also commit to trying-really-hard to not buying new stash! It might be a bit lacklustre but I think it is achievable and that is what counts :) I, Shannon, commit to using 4 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I'm really just getting back into sewing and my stash is small-just one box. But I do want to use it all up. And I love the challenge ideas. The Finished Garment I only have a small stash - just one box, but I do want to use it up, so here's my pledge: "I, Shannon, commit to using 4 pieces of stash fabric in 2013." I love the challenge ideas. I can't want to get started. The Finished Garment I don't have much of a stash but its slowly adding up, so. I,Annei,commit to using at lest 6 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I will strive to use the fabric I have bought for certain patterns and make the item or use it for something that I will ware. I will try to only buy fabric for clothing I will make not just because I like the fabric. I, Vanessa, commit to using at least 6 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I also commit to finishing garments that have gotten stuck halfway through. I'm a bit late jumping on board, but I think this is a great way to keep me sewing all year long. I've only got 1 tub of fabric, but it has reached critical mass and my apartment can't afford to have it overflow. I, Lise, commit to using at least 20 pieces of fabric from my enourmous stash by the end of 2013. I will not buy any new fabric this year, except what is needned to finish a project. I also commit to finish each project completely before starting a new one. I, Holly,commit to using 12 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. Additional: I also commit to using at least two thirds of all new fabrics that I buy myself this year. I know I'm late to join, but I have been thinking about it, trying to come up with a goal that is challenging yet achievable. I, Pickled Weasel commit to using 10 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I'm a bit late joining, but I really ummed and ahhed when the stashbust was announced originally as I worried I wouldn't be able to honour any pledges I made. Only I just realised I've sewn three things with fabric from my stash already this year so maybe I can do it after all! And by a happy coincidence the last thing I made was for my daughter, so it qualifies for the Feb. challenge :) Is it too late to join? I just heard about this from Four Square Walls. My pledge is to use up ten pieces of stash fabric for the rest of the year. I also pledge that the number of fabric pieces I buy must be less than or equal to the number of fabric pieces I use up every month. I, Amanda, pledge to sew the next six garments I make from my stash (excepting notions, muslin, and interfacing!). I, Helen, commit to using 19 pieces of my stash this year. 2 per month, 1 for March, since it's part gone. I am aiming to use this as an opportunity for adventure, to try some ideas, if only to use up fabric. Getting my "acres" in, ala Kenneth King:. Kenneth King I earnestly commit to making ten things in 2013 from yardage I already have. Easy Peasy. I will avoid fabric purchases, unless it is lining fabric..I don't have any of that. I also don't think yard sale fabrics and gifts of yardage count. There is never that much of it and I refuse to return gifts that I really want! I ,in addition, will commit to mixing and matching lining colors in order to use it all up. Should be interesting. "I, Nancy,commit to using 9 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. Additional option: I also commit to not buying any new fabric/patterns/notions except for back yard finds, church bazaar goodies, vintage patterns and lining fabrics until Jan 2014! Oh, and if somebody gives me fabric, I am keeping it! "I, Ebi of Mostly Raaw Edges, commit to sewing only from stash fabric in April 2013, by creating projects for what I have. I commit to using at least six pieces of stash fabric this month, and buying fewer pieces of fabric than I use from my stash." Ooh, hopefully this will keep me motivated and honest! "I, Lyn of Poofytail, commit to using 25 pieces of stash fabric in 2013. I also commit to not buying any new fabric except for supplies needed to finish a project or fabric to make things for other people until the end of the year, with the exception that I can buy one new piece of fabric for my birthday."

Return to Transcripts main page OPEN COURT Women of Istanbul Tournament; French Open Winner Li Na; Lobbing Volleys With Andrea Petkovic; WTA Chairman and CEO Stacey Allaster; Turkish Star Ipek Senoglu Determined to Put Turkey on Tennis Map; Andrea Petkovic Behind the Scenes Aired November 10, 2011 - 05:30 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. PAT CASH, HOST: Hello, and welcome to OPEN COURT. Just beyond these ships is the Asian continent. I'm in Istanbul where East meets West and the top women tennis players have all traveled here for a year-ending championship. So, why Istanbul? Well, it's one of several markets that women's tennis is hoping to conquer. Coming up on OPEN COURT, Li Na, Asia's first ever Grand Slam champion talks about life after her big win. Hear why her husband is back in her coaching corner. Plus, what does it take to run the WTA? The woman at the center of the organization gives us rare access. And still to come, Andrea Petkovic dusts off her dancing shoes. The tournament only sends out eight invitations, and I was lucky enough to catch up with some of the top players and ask them what their highlights of the year were. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) (CROWD CHEERS) CASH: And how have the last few months been since Wimbledon? Has it been a bit -- a bit crazy? PETRA KVITOVA, WIMBLEDON CHAMPION: When I'm playing some tournament, yes, other people came to me and know my name finally, because before it was like, thank God, or something like that. CASH: Twenty-four years ago, I won Wimbledon, and I had dinner with Martina Navratilova. It's been -- there's not that many Czech players have been winning since. Welcome to the club. You're now a member of the All England Lawn Tennis Club. KVITOVA: It's very nice to be with Martina and Jana and Jan Kodes and everybody who won this great game. (CROWD CHEERS) CASH: So, tell me, how's it been since the US Open? SAMANTHA STOSUR, US OPEN CHAMPION: I went back to the Gold Coast, and the Gold Coast actually put on a big parade for me and also the 100 meters champ, Sally Pearson. So we did a bit of a parade, and lots of people came out, we got the keys to the city. CASH: Yes, I got the keys to Melbourne, and I realized -- the key to Melbourne -- and I realized it didn't open anything. STOSUR: That's exactly right. There's nothing. CASH: Huh? What's the deal? I couldn't go into any jewelry stores - - STOSUR: I heard lots of rumors of what it does, and then once I got there, they said, no, it does nothing. So -- but I guess it's just a great honor. CASH: Is there anything in particular you think that might have stood out for this year? STOSUR: Oh, I think there's been some really huge milestones this year. Really interesting that you can have those major events and throughout the year have four different winners, four winners in really quite different stages of their careers. (CROWD CHEERS) STOSUR: Kim and Li Na, what she's been through, having a child, and now winning another Slam. (CROWD CHEERS) VICTORIA AZARENKA, WORLD NUMBER THREE: I think quite a lot happened this year, but the one that really stands out is Li Na winning the French Open. It was an historical moment for China and for women's tennis as well, it was really huge. And I was the unfortunate one to lose to her in the quarterfinals, but I think it was amazing. CAROLINE WOZNIACKI, WORLD NUMBER ONE: I think it's great that Li Na won in the French Open and China, it's a huge market, and she's become very big in China and tennis has become very popular there. (END VIDEOTAPE) CASH: Li Na's win at the French Open is something that I won't soon forget. I mean, 116 million people cheering her on, watching her lift the Roland Garros trophy. We were fortunate enough to catch up with her at a Chinese Premier event in Beijing. Here's Eunice Yoon. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ANNOUNCER: Li Na! 2011 French Open Champion, Li Na! (CROWD CHEERS) EUNICE YOON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is a rare trip home for China's first ever Grand Slam champion. I wanted to find out how she's adapted to her newly-found fame. (CROWD CHEERS) YOON (on camera): That means we're starting. LI NA, FRENCH OPEN CHAMPION: OK. OK. YOON: So, how has life changed for you since the French Open? LI: I think it changed a lot. Really. I mean -- biggest I know after the French Open is I come back to China. The fans were crazy. (CROWD CHEERS) LI: I was back home and the lady was like, "Oh, Li Na, I know who you are, I need your autograph." I was like -- because she spoke so loud so everyone can hear that. And same time, more people just came around for me, so my friend said, "Run into the car! Run into the car!" So, I was full power running to the car, and then we shoot. So, I was like, "What happened?" It was just like no more life. (CROWD CHEERS) YOON: Why did you decide to go into tennis? LI: My father was a badminton player and had some problems so he couldn't continue. So that's why, I was playing badminton before. But after two years, the tennis coach came to the badminton court, take me to the tennis court to show me how was the tennis court, how was the racket, how was the ball. And I was -- because I was so young. I couldn't decide anything, so I asked my family. So, they came to the court, they say, "Oh, interesting. OK. We change." I was like, "This is what you decide, one second after you see the court?" And I think it's not bad that I changed. (LAUGHTER) YOON (voice-over): As a young schoolgirl, Li Na trained under the state-funded national team, which covers all of the players costs. BENDOU ZHANG, TENNIS JOURNALIST: The state assists and you don't have lots of options. You train with other girls, you have the same coach, they use the same ways to coach everybody. YOON: Following the 2008 Beijing Olympics, the Chinese Tennis Association gave more freedom to its players. ZHANG: Now everybody has to personalize their coaching way. You can choose which tournaments you play in and which coach you work with. I think it's very good for her. YOON: Li Na picked the former Swedish pro Thomas Hogstedt to help move her career forward. THOMAS HOGSTEDT, FORMER COACH, 2005-2010: She had very, very big potential. She was strong, she had great technique and strokes. She needed to have a mind how to play. I think that's what I tried to help the whole China players was the mentality, to believe that you can beat. Also the top ten players have weaknesses, so everything is possible. LI: Thomas, he was magnificent China coach. He always gave me the confidence. First time, he would say, "Oh, for sure you can be top 20. I was like, "Are you joking?" Because I didn't believe -- never had the coach say I can be top 20. ZHANG: I think Chinese people like her because she's different. She's not very Chinese. She's very international. She talks and communicates with people in some kind of other ways. YOON (on camera): You're viewed here as a rebel or a maverick. LI: No, I'm not. YOON: Yes you are! LI: No. YOON: Are you comfortable with that image? LI: Definitely not. YOON: Why not? LI: I mean, I never thought I was special. I'm just a tennis player. I just do my job. So, I don't know why someone would say that. YOON (voice-over): Li Na began the year with her husband as her coach. She fired him in the spring and rehired him in the fall. LI: Really, it's tough. Husband is the coach, so sometimes he was shouting against me, I was like, "Hey, you are my husband, why are you shouting against me?" But I forgot he was my coach. ZHANG: Jiang Shan is like her rubbish can. She needs a channel to make all the negative emotion go out, and Jiang Shan does a very good job, I think. YOON (on camera): Who proposed to whom when you guys decided to get married? LI: This is tough. I mean, we don't know who said it first, because we'd been together 13 years already. Just feeling like, "Should we marry?" "Yes. OK." And the next day we just go, OK. YOON: Because there was a report about how you had proposed on Valentine's Day. LI: No, of course not. We students have parties. So we have to wait after he retire if student husband. (LAUGHTER) (END VIDEOTAPE) CASH: Well, I've got a very special guest here. ANDREA PETKOVIC, WORLD NUMBER 10: Hello. CASH: Andrea Petkovic. PETKOVIC: How are you? CASH: Hello, very nice to meet you. PETKOVIC: Nice to meet you, Pat. CASH: What do you think about Li Na? That was a pretty impressive year, wasn't it? PETKOVIC: That was so impressive. CASH: Something -- PETOVIC: It was really -- CASH: -- something special. PETOVIC: It was really special because I also -- I played in China now this year, and I felt that the spirit changed there. It was just, people got so much more into tennis and they really knew what was going on, and I think Li Na changed that. CASH: She's not the only one who's done well, is she? You've done amazingly well. Where was your ranking before this year? Because you -- PETKOVIC: Yes, I was -- CASH: -- we didn't know you before last year. And now, here you are. PETKOVIC: I played well, yes. I had a great season. I played quite consistent. I played three quarters and three Grand Slams. So, now I'm here, I'm top 10. CASH: So, you've gone from 13 to 10. Where do you think you can improve to get up to maybe top 5? PETKOVIC: I would like to have more variety in my game. I would like to come more to the net, you know? Like you did in earlier times I heard. And I would like to improve my serve, so there are still tons of things that I need to improve. CASH: Well, if you want to practice some volleys. You want to practice some volleys? PETKOVIC: Yes, let's do it. CASH: Yes? PETKOVIC: Yes. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CASH: And you seem to have a lot of fun on the tour. PETKOVIC: Yes. I'll try to enjoy myself as much as I can. CASH: Sorry. Sorry about that. PETKOVIC: Want to kill me? CASH: I didn't mean that to happen. Everybody's talking about your dancing skills. PETKOVIC: Oh yes? CASH: Yes. PETKOVIC: Do you have some dancing skill? CASH: I have no dancing skills. PETKOVIC: I don't believe that. CASH: I actually woke up in the middle of the night, I want, "Oh! Heidi's going to make me dance!" (LAUGHTER) CASH: And I'm horrified by dancing. PETROVIC: If I play semis in Australia, you have to dance with me. CASH: Where? Not -- on center court? PETROVIC: On center court, yes. CASH: Or in a night club? Different -- PETROVIC: Right after my match. CASH: Well, Andrea, thank you very much. PETROVIC: Thank you so much, Pat. It was a lot of fun. CASH: Yes, and I've got a little -- a little favor to ask. PETROVIC: Oh, OK. CASH: You mind doing some behind the scenes footage for us? PETROVIC: No, I don't mind at all. CASH: Yes? There you go. (END VIDEOTAPE) CASH: Still to come, an inside look at what it takes to run the WTA. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) STOSUR: Funny, I've actually never been to this city or country before, so it's not too many places that are new each year. VERA ZVONAREVA, WORLD NUMBER SEVEN: Turkey is a great country, and I think they're paying a lot of attention to the sport. WOZNIACKI: We really didn't know what to expect, and now I feel like there's so much buzz about this city. (END VIDEO CLIP) CASH: Welcome back to Istanbul, the site of the WTA season-ending championships. The lady behind this elite event, none other than WTA chairman and CEO, Stacey Allaster. In 2010, "Forbes" magazine named her one of the most powerful women in sports. OPEN COURT was granted rare access to follow Allaster over a 48- hour period at the Rogers Cup. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CANDY REID, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Stacey. I've come to -- CASH (voice-over): CNN's Candy Reid caught up with her in her native Toronto. STACEY ALLASTER, CHAIRMAN AND CEO, WTA: When you think about it, my first job in tennis was cleaning the red clay courts at my club. REID: Is that right? ALLASTER: For 24 cents, or to get a pop. And then to think that I am the head of the organization that Billie Jean King founded. You know, I can sit her today and tell you that our sponsorship revenues are 60 percent up, six new sponsors, we've added three or four new events. I sat with the top players three days ago and said, all right, we're in a worldwide recession, and your prize money in the last three years has gone from $85 million to $90 million and $96 million next year. So, from this, this is really today's meeting. Almost 40 percent comes from our year-end championship. KIM CLIJSTERS , WORLD NUMBER 13: She is a competitor in her business, and that's, I think, what has been very -- why she's been so successful is that, OK, we have a good product, but you also need a good leader, and she's been that leader that we've been looking for for many years. ALLASTER: This is their business. I work for them. And they're the stars of the show. The last one will be on Saturday -- DANIELA HANTUCHOVA, WORLD NUMBER 24: She's the strength to represent the players, that we are not only on the court to look good and to be part of the tournament, but every one of us wants to win it. REID (voice-over): Of course, the big factor in the WTA's recent success is the emergence of a genuine superstar from China, French Open champion Li Na. ALLASTER: Li Na has really kicked it and taken us to a whole other level, 116 million fans watched Li Na win her first Grand Slam. Just the scale and size of that market is immense for women's tennis. China and Asia-Pacific is our number one priority. We want to make sure that we get that -- those markets right. REID (on camera): Do you see good life after the likes of Venus, Serena, Kim, Maria Sharapova, once they retire? ALLASTER: Everyone says, who's next? Everyone says, is it going to be as good as Monica and Steffi? And Chrissy and Martina. And what do we know? It always is. How are you? PETKOVIC: I'm good. You? ALLASTER: I think you missed. And that's where we went to. PETKOVIC: I know. ALLASTER: What are we going to do? REID: How important is it to develop the personalities of the players? Because there's a lot of Eastern European players that people just don't know. ALLASTER: How do we make Andrea Petkovic a star in North America? The great news is, she's got a wonderful personality. You know this is my home tournament, right? PETKOVIC: I know, I know that you're Canadian. (LAUGHTER) PETKOVIC (imitating Canadian accent): I figured it out. ALLASTER: Oh! (LAUGHTER) ALLASTER: You met me! When we go to Europe, Andrea Petkovic is a superstar. So, that's where we have this strength of being global, but it also can be a challenge as we move the tour around. REID: What about the grunting issue? Because that came up at Wimbledon a bit. ALLASTER: It does. REID: People were worrying a bit about -- ALLASTER: I don't know, you Brits. It always comes up when we're at Wimbledon. REID: It's a problem with Sharapova and Azarenka, if they were to play together under the roof at Wimbledon. ALLASTER: Yes. I do believe that changing this generation is very hard. They have trained this way. It's how they learned to play the sport. REID: I only have $10. $20. Am I going to go and see a movie, am I going to go and see a tennis match? ALLASTER: You can go to a movie any day of the year, but for seven days in your city, you can only see world class tennis. So, take a chance, come and see a Monday afternoon first round match of women's tennis, and you will be blown away. You cannot believe how talented they are, how hard they hit the ball, and it's a great entertainment outing. (END VIDEOTAPE) CASH: Still to come, the woman who's determined to put tennis on the map in Turkey. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) CASH: Welcome back to OPEN COURT from Istanbul. One of Turkey's most successful tennis players, and she's leading the charge for tennis in her country. I joined her for a cup of tea, Ipek Senoglu. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CASH: Oh, look at this. Well done, Ipek. Tea, the traditional stuff. IPEK SENOGLU, FORMER TURKISH NUMBER ONE: Did you like what I ordered? CASH: Fantastic. The cafe. Here we are. Thanks for tea. Now, you've got the distinction of being the first Turkish player to ever play in a Grand Slam. Wimbledon, right? SENOGLU: Yes. CASH: I've known you for a years, so I knew you when you were trying to get into -- SENOGLU: Yes. CASH: -- the tournament. Must've been a big step up. SENOGLU: It was always a dream for me, but obviously, being the first Turkish and having to dream about it a few years back before I did it, people were actually laughing because no one had done it before. But obviously, reaching that goal for me to ever play in a Grand Slam meant a lot. CASH: Well, when I first came here a few years ago, probably about the same time as you were trying to come through -- SENOGLU: Yes. Yes. CASH: I could -- I saw the potential. I saw so many kids that were playing tennis, and I thought, wow, people really do like playing tennis here. SENOGLU: Yes. CASH: It's come a long way. SENOGLU: A player doesn't have to right now go outside of Turkey to play professional tennis. CASH: Now, you also were -- what we famously saw a beautiful picture of, you and Venus Williams playing on a bridge in between -- SENOGLU: Yes, Bosporus Bridge, yes. CASH: -- Europe and Asia. SENOGLU: Yes. CASH: And you stopped -- you managed to stop all the traffic, obviously. SENOGLU: Yes, we did. (CROSSTALK) CASH: That in itself is almost impossible. SENOGLU: On one side of the bridge -- on one side of the bridge, they actually stopped the traffic. They asked me, look, you guys are going to be the first two people that ever had -- can play tennis from Asia to Europe. Would you like to do that? I was like, "Yes, please!" I liked to do that. It was an amazing experience to be on that bridge and to toss the ball literally with Venus Williams, one of the best players in the world. And to actually write history, because I don't think anybody will ever do that again. CASH: You're doing a tennis show this week. You're still on the circuit. SENOGLU: Yes. CASH: You're doing a lot of stuff. You're doing a tennis academy. SENOGLU: Yes. CASH: Who are some of the players that you think -- that you enjoy interviewing and -- SENOGLU: One of the girls that I enjoyed interviewing with was Andrea because she's very outgoing and -- CASH: Petkovic? SENOGLU: Yes. Do you like her? CASH: She's a lot of fun. She actually did a video blog for us, so, a behind-the-scenes video blog. So, maybe we'll have a little look at that. Let's have a look. (END VIDEOTAPE) (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) PETKOVIC: It's crazy. It's crazy, it's crazy. Once it's like water, it goes crazy. I feel like I'm the Backstreet Boys. Look at this guy. JOHN ISNER: Look at my chest! PETKOVIC: He just played the match. How did it go, four sets? ISNER: I won in four. Look at my big chest. PETKOVIC: Yes, look at his chest. ISNER: Am I turning you on. PETKOVIC: A little bit. (LAUGHTER) PETKOVIC: I hope you like this, and make sure you stay tuned. Caio. (END VIDEOTAPE) CASH: Well, you see Andrea is a lot of fun. But -- SENOGLU: Yes. I told you. CASH: Yes. Thanks very much for looking after us and getting this feast. I think it's -- SENOGLU: Can I eat some now? CASH: I think it's time to leave. But first of all, we're just going to say good-bye to everybody from Istanbul and thanks very much for watching this month. Food time. END Weather forecast

Day 1 Keynote - Bjarne Stroustrup: C++11 Style - Date: February 2, 2012 from 9:30AM to 11:00AM - Day 1 - Speakers: Bjarne Stroustrup - 205,916 Views - 72 Comments Something went wrong getting user information from Channel 9 Something went wrong getting user information from MSDN Something went wrong getting the Visual Studio Achievements Right click “Save as…”Slides. Follow the Discussion Good!! Always eager to learn from the best. I'm definitely looking forward to watching Bjarne's interesting talk and the other GoingNative 2012 sessions! Looking forward to this exciting session, Rocks!! Looking forward to all the sessions. I am based in Manchester UK, must have checked the time in Redmond USA at least 20 times today :) cant wait. We are gonna party like it is C++98 :P Where are the live feed links? Awesome talk! Where can I access the recorded keynote? You'll be able to access the recorded keynote and indeed all the sessions right here. Charles said it would take about +1 day to do the encoding and then the downloadable video files will be available. Where can I download yesterday videos? It was a great lecture! But I haven't had the time to watch other speakers. I'll download the 1080p version of talks, since 1080p makes reading the code much a nicer experience. EDIT: Charles, would it be possible to also publish the PowerPoint or PDF slides? @undefined:Yes, where are the recorded sessions? Had to work during almost all talks, so I'm looking forward to here all these presentations - saw a bit of the first day live but will enjoy the recordings of all presentations soon . BTW: great selection of speakers: Bjarne, Sutter, Alexandrescu,… @STL: great to here that range-base-for-loops will be in VC11.. though I'm a std::for_each-guy so that's not that big of a deal for me. PS: looking forward to std::thread-support in VC… The range-based for-loop is significantly less verbose than std::for_each() (my least favorite STL algorithm). But using more specific STL algorithms is always a good idea. The first qsort Example seems to be broken. I guess it goes to show how bad the API really is. void f(char *arr, int m, ...) { qsort(arr, m, sizeof(char*), cmpstringp); } He probably wanted a char *arr[]. Great talk so far. btw. this website should support Unicode in names! Thanks. Fixed for future uses. A great talk! I believe the 38 slide should read shared_ptr<Gadget> p( new Gadget{n} ); instead of shared_ptr<Gadget> p = new Gadget{n}; The same thing with the 39 slide. I thought the talk on C++11 was great. helpful Can someone enlighten me about the syntax on page 62 (and 63) of slides: double* f(const vector<double>& v); // read from v return result double* g(const vector<double>& v); // read from v return result void user(const vector<double>& some_vec) // note: const { double res1, res2; thread t1 {[&]{ res1 = f(some_vec); }}; thread t2 {[&]{ res2 = g(some_vec); }}; // ... t1.join(); t2.join(); cout << res1 << ' ' << res2 << '\n'; } Isn't there a type mismatch between f() return and res1? I took some sentence from the description of Bjarne description, because I am trying to find ressources, materials tutorials that show how to acheive this. For the previous standart or c++11. Anybody know good reference where i can find this now? thanks @undefined: Slides will be released with each session video! Like this one C Oh heck I give up. Cool. Now we can see the invisible graph. Yes, having to explain an invisible graph was a bit of a challenge :-) Thanks for the comments; corrections will be applied to future versions of the talk. It is interesting to ask if the software which supposed to show the graphs and the graph itself (i.e. invisible one) was written in C++. I noticed also some problems with fonts on one or two slides. According to my experience these are typical problems in all kind of scientific presentations. It is hard to believe that it is so difficult to avoid those problems with current technology. The same presentation on one computer looks very different on a different computer only because some other fonts are installed on that computer. In theory it is possible to embed the fonts with the presentation unfortunately this method do not work well in many cases (my own experience). The only real solution is to transform the presentation into pdf or use some other software (or use your own computer but in many cases is not possible). I saw these problems hundreds times in all kind of conferences and it looks like nobody in the MS Office Team cares about that (since the existence of MS Office). The question about an easier way to declare getters and setters, anyone else think than Bjarne was just short of saying "I don't want that crap in my language"? =) Nice. C++ may get bashed a lot, but its creator can certainly deliver a coherent presentation.() ); Shouldn't there at least be a performance difference between sum=0; for(vector<int>::sizetype i=0;i<v.size();++i){ sum+=v[i]}; sum=0; for_each(v.begin(),v.end(),[&sum](int x){sum +=x;}); Since the first is calling size() during each loop, while the second (I believe) wouldn't constantly be rechecking the size, similarly to defining a vector<int>::sizetype end=v.size; and checking i<end? I am also curious why there aren't at least some run times or something to back up the claim that there is no discernible difference between "several systems and several compilers"? On my question about getters and setters in the video, I guess that these should be avoided; public data and object members should simply be declared public, despite what I've seen to be a common practice on many projects, and which seems to be promoted in many object oriented languages. Ideally, there would be some way to overload the setting of an object or data "property" if the logic needs to be changed or limits imposed. I have created a Property template class in the past as Bjarne suggested, however, there is no elegant way for the parent class to overload the setter in the aggregated Property<T> member, and the syntax of accessing members of the property too often become property.get().member(), rather than property.member(), which is what you want to write. From a language viewpoint, perhaps something like an overloaded "member access operator" would allow library writers to implement a setter or getter later if needed without changing user code. But without this, we suggest that if we need to change logic around setting or getting a member value, make the property private and recompile - we can easily find and update all the usages of the data member to use the new getter or setter. So awesome to have Bjarne posting on C9! Thank you, sir. C @undefined:Darren, here are my thoughts on your question. If you created a wrapper class for each public data member you could overload the assignment operator to perform bounds checking (as well as assignment) and perhaps throw an exception if necessary. That would solve the problem of assigning to a property without a setter. Of course, you would also have to overload all other meaningful operators for that property such as the boolean operators. You would have to repeat all this for each property, which in the end may be more trouble than it's worth. I can't really think of another way to do it, but I also haven't touched C++ in awhile so I could be wrong. Anyway, good luck. I would really love to hear a talk, or read a paper, from Bjarne that discusses when to use OOP, and when to choose Functional or Type programming. For me, finding a balance has always been the most difficult part in software development. There just isn't one right way, but I'd love to hear his thoughts. If anyone has any links to anything related that would be wonderful. Nice For those who are also members of the C++ Software Developers group on LinkedIn, I have started a discussion about what I believe are the most important features of C++ 11, and would love to see feedback and examples of good style that people would like to contribute. See I watched the video few times. I feel like we need some "fresh-minds" in defining what programming should look like, replacing Bjarne. They had their era, time to move on. My biggest problem with C++ (in big project) are the #includes that square the amount of source to compile (headers are compiled separately for each compilation unit). Look how long it takes to compile firefox or KDE :-( I think this is were we pay the cost for [over]using templates and/or inline functions. Maybe there is something that could be fixed here? Maybe if we break backward compatibility (drop the preprocessor)? It's a pity that those problems were not mentioned here. @pafinde: That's one of the things that modules seek to solve. You can see the "invisible" graph in my posted slides. I wrote a paper for IEEE Computer Magazine with very similar examples. See the January 2012 issue of Computer or my publications page:. From C++ application development point of view, is there any place for compiler generated iterators in C++ (c# IEnumerable)? Seems like they may be implemented with zero overhead, like lambdas do. I dont see any difference between the example and the 'better' example Both are understandable only if you use declarative parameter names as it is done with which is equally understandable for me if you write ? @bog: Thanks for this detailed answer to my comment. I dont want to start nit-picking here. For sure 99.9999% of all programmers (me included) would use both corner points to define a rectangle. But you could also define it by its center point and any other point. Or using the second constructor with Point top_left and Box_hw. Even if i would be 99% sure that i know what's meant, if i would readI would take a look at the implementation or read the docs to be sure. So for me, using declarative parameter names highly improves the readability of interfaces. After a night thinking about this issue I have to correct my first comment. Within the meaning of this excellent talk, the examples using Point are the better ones. I was just misled by the different notations for good examples written with parameters and bad examples written without. The Point example is better, because it implicates the possibility to use units like it is done by the Speed example. The general point (sic) about the Point example is that sequences of arguments of the same type is prone to transposition of argument values. I consider it a well established fact that this is a significant source of errors. The implication is that we need to look for remedies. Using a more expressive and specific set of types is one approach. A very good source of infomation.. Bjarne sir, I truly enjoyed, appreciated, and was influenced by your presentation. One thing that comes to mind is the ability for C++ to write performant, yet secure code. I'm confused at one thing. I can understand where he says, shared_ptr and unique_ptr, but where he says why use a pointer, and then shows this code: I'm pretty sure C++ wouldn't except that? I've just run a test, and you can scope a variable like in Java now ^_^ it would be like this Its amazing to see how C++ is catching up with .NET. I've always been a C++ guy. Thanks again. Now? That last f() has worked for about two decades! It's pure C++98. The "Gadget g {n};" in the original example, simply used the C++11 uniform initializer syntax, but is otherwise identical. Wow, i must be honoured to get a reply from the man himself. Thanks for the heads up Bjarne, C++ is really moving up. So I can just pass a object by value by using rvalue references. That is soo cool. Tom So, why can’t I read an unsigned char from an input stream? When I try to read from "0", I get 060 and not 0 as expected. And when I push (unsigned char) 0, I get "\0", not "0" in the output. (1) Huh? unsigned char c; while(cin>>c) cout<<c<<'\n'; gives exactly what I expect (2) The value of (unsigned char)0 *is* 0; not the value of the character '0' Great presentation Bjarne. Honestly I have checked it a few times already on the expense of not having watched the other videocasts yet... Too bad the Vector vs Linked-List comparison kind of fell short. In spite of the graph-mishap I got inspired and tested it on a few different machines. For small amounts it was virtually the same but as the sets got larger there was a huge difference.It was fun to see - especially since I remember discussing this a couple of years ago (then I failed to see the larger picture). Thanks again for the presentation! To the guy asking about getters and setters using different get and set functions per class and while still keeping function inlining, this should work. template<class OutType, class StoreType, class Controller> class Property { private: StoreType data; public: operator OutType() { return Controller::get(data); } OutType operator=(OutType a) { Controller::set(data, a); return Controller::get(data); } }; class HPController { public: static int get(int &a) { return a; } static void set(int &a, int &b) { a = b; } }; class Man { public: Property<int, int, HPController> HP; }; void PropertyTest() { Man man; man.HP = 7; cout << man.HP << "\n"; } Thanks Bjarne!!! I knew I wasn't stupid for wanting readable interfaces!! Hehe @Ray: The problem with that approach becomes when your 'controller' needs to do something a bit more complex and needs the target object's state to decide what to do or needs to notify the target object to do something else upon a change. In my experience I've found those cases the primary cases where I actually needed getters and setters. So then in that case the Property class template needs to change to be able to contain a controller object which then holds a reference to the target object ( 'Man', in this case ), and the Controller then can not use static methods. But then here is the bloat added. So I like Darren's new proposal best - if they are logically publically available properties just leave them as public member variables. In the future, when you realize that you need something more complex, either make them private and add getters and setters and modify the client code, or make a decorator that allows the assignment operator to work with them which calls the real getters and setter behind the scenes. The truth is IOStream treats signed/unsigned chars as characters and not as numbers. Whether this is something to be expected I don't know. Didn't know I could watch this on the internet. I will definitely watch this as soon as I get off. My suggestion is that when you write a char (short for "character") to an character I/O stream, you should expect to see that character on the output device. It takes quite some alternative learning to expect otherwise. PS The "c" in cout, stands for "character" PPS "If everything else fails read the manual" I was trying to use his units code that was on the slide around 24:00, but the syntax he uses for the following doesn't seem to work with gcc 4.6.2 and -std=c++0x using Speed = Value<Unit<1,0,-1>>; I've never seen this use of the using directive before. Anybody know what is up with this? @Luke: gcc 4.7 introduces support for template aliases. I have only 4.6.1 installed... I'll need to upgrade I guess With gcc 4.7, the following works: Speed sp1 = Value<Unit<1,0,-1>>(100); // 100 meters / second But this does not (operator/ is not defined): Speed sp1 = Value<Unit<1,0,0>>(100) / Value<Unit<0,0,1>>(1); I guess he left out the part which would define all the arithmetic operators. Yes, about two pages of things like this template<class U1, class U2> Value<typename Unit_plus<U1,U2>::type> operator*(Value<U1> x, Value<U2> y) { return Value<typename Unit_plus<U1,U2>::type>(x.val*y.val); } and this template<class U1, class U2> struct Unit_plus { typedef Unit<U1::m+U2::m, U1::kg+U2::kg, U1::s+U2::s > type; }; You can make that prettier in C++11, but I was using an old compiler (then), so I used old-fashioned, but effective, metaprogramming. I like this one. !bind comes from boost. "Using !bind(pred, _1) in the first call to stable_partition() in the definition of the gather() function template (around minute 56 of the video) won't compile, will it? (Unless the wrapper object returned from bind() overloads operator!, which I don't think it does.)" - from decades, code was been easy to learn first, because you were just need a few terms for programming. And you were done all things with that. - Now, you need , you must use Interfaces , typedef specifics, classes globally existing in a namespace (like .NET) and you must know how you name it. Yes, a box it's ok . This is a simple box. But, Box_hw ? how do you spell it ? You need now what you want to do but name it ! Is it more difficult for programmers ? No . Is it more difficult to remember the names ? No It it always difficult to remember for beginners. But, if you are a beginner, engineer, you just need to remember all classes. For example, even google couldn't help you if you want a bicycle and you don't know how you spell a bicycle. Now, differences between engineers : a few people know all classes ? well, but it's not very realistic. Second, i love when i can be a C++ programmer since i know how to program in Java. That is in a good spirit. Third, i love when he said "who does the delete ?" . Many bugs come from the bad documentation or a left program. And else about Copy ? Not copy ? well, you can choice. You need to choice and need to say in the documentation that you can copy or not (thread safe ?). After, it explains you should have use a Vector and not a List to insert incrementally your data because true OO type is a chained list. That is the difference and a time consuming with .NET List insertion. But, it's implementation dependent. You should know the implementation now. Low level is should be not use : use standard templates instead. That's very C++ ! Remove this comment Remove this threadclose

Chris A -- first impressions Article posted September 12, 2012 at 05:36 PM GMT • comment (1) • Reads 1262 Cleo B -- Article posted September 13, 2012 at 05:46 PM GMT • comment (1) • Reads 284 It has been a while since I've attended school and it is refreshing to be back in the solace of pen, paper and homework. I have to admit that everything is vastly different from the kind of school I am accustomed to, not just beacause it is an adult school but things work differently from the Philippines. Back in my home country school starts at 7 in the morning and ends half past 4 in the afternoon, which is clearly not the same case here in Winnipeg, Manitoba. The structures and buildings are different too, it is more modern and well built, which is a nice environment for learning. Truthfully I was nervous during the first day of class. I was anxious to meet my classmates but they are a nice lot and now I found myself comfortable around them. I imagined my teacher to be strict and and someone who plays by the book but upon meeting Jody I honestly thinking that she is cool and very helpful. So far the lessons that we have covered got the gears in my head turning again. The topics are considered to be refreshers since those were already taught in high school. I am looking forward for more writing assignments, especially the the lyrical one stated in the course outline. One must be determined in order to pass. I will set my priorities straight and focus. I must attend every class so that I won't miss anything and by not missing anything I won't have a hard time in catching up. I will pay attention to the lessons and actively participate in class, that way the piece of information will be retained in my mind. Taking down notes is helpful and will save me the trouble when studying alone. It will also keep things organized. I shall change my ways and never procrastinate. If a task is given I should carefully go through it and don't waste my time in idle thinking. Completing homework and making sure it is done before it is due is a good practice as well. Hopefully I'll follow through the things I have listed and acquire enough credits and be a successful student. It is better late than never. Becca C -- Blog #1 Article posted September 13, 2012 at 05:52 PM GMT • comment • Reads 301 My first immpressions of this class was how diverse it was. It's a big change than from what I am used to from highschool but I knew what to expect. The school is very small but I like it in a way. Its easier to get to know people and easier to learn. So far I find the work we are doing in class rather easy. Probably becuase english is one of my stonger subjects and I have already completed a grade 12 english course. So far the course outline seems to be intersting. I am looking forward to the research project mostly. This semester I plan to come to every class to ensure that I succeed. My biggest problem in the past was attendence. Also, handing in all of my homework and assignments to ensure I receive the highest marks possible. The higher my marks the better chances I have for being accepted into the University Of Winnipeg. Jennifer C -- Blog #1 Article posted September 13, 2012 at 03:17 PM GMT • comment • Reads 278 Adam G -- Article posted September 13, 2012 at 05:58 PM GMT • comment (1) • Reads 255 Derek M -- Blog #1: A breath of fresh air. Article posted September 12, 2012 at 04:30 PM GMT • comment • Reads 272 John M -- Blog #1 Article posted September 13, 2012 at 05:45 PM GMT • comment • Reads 303 James N -- Blog 1 Article posted September 13, 2012 at 05:47 PM GMT • comment (1) • Reads 271 Christina P -- First Impressions Article posted September 18, 2012 at 08:54 PM GMT • comment • Reads 307 Having been in and out of school for 10 years I would have to say my best experience so far has been with RETSD. I didn't know what to expect on my first day of school. I like that it's small so you don't have to compete too much for help. I especially like the fact that the teachers actually help you. At JobWorks the English teacher didn't help me much. English certainly isn't my strong point. I enjoy writing but I have a hard time puttung pen to paper. Attending class four mornings a week instead of two I've noticed the class moves at a faster pace. Hopefully I can get most of my assignments completed before the end of the course. There are always bumps along the road to success. In the past I have given up my studies because of work or illness due to my pregnancy. This year I plan to strive to achieve my diploma in June. With finances being tough and having a little one to care for at home that hasn't detered me from completing my assignments. Yes, they may be late but they will be handed in. Tim R -- blog 1 Article posted September 13, 2012 at 05:39 PM GMT • comment • Reads 265 i like this class you are an awsome teacher.i like mcleode a lot more as a school.This one seems a little more ghetto but a lot smaller the class seems younger than last year i feel old but whatever.the work is the same some is fun some not so much.but all in all this will be a good semester.I hope to pass with a better mark than last year.I can do it just have to work harder.Up for the challenge.It will be good and i will enjoy myself thanks Soryda S -- Blog #1 Article posted September 17, 2012 at 05:31 PM GMT • comment • Reads 275 My first impression of this, I thought "yay!! the computer room!!" I say that because we can have our own space in a way instead of awkardly starring at each other, plus we can go on the computer...of course. I was surprised there was actually alot of students despite there was barely any last year when I attended here at the Center. My classmates ALL seem to be nice and smart! I know this because Jody had us in group discussions so that gave a me a better chance to get to know them. And as for Jody, she`s a great teacher just how most of her old students told me she was. I like the way she teaches. So far we learned about editing and revising our work, writing variables and reading strategies. Though this course is very fast paced I feel like at the same time I've learned alot. For me to succeed in this class, I think attendance is important and most importantly is to understand what is being taught to us so it makes are assignments and homework easier to do. Aaron S -- First Day Article posted September 25, 2012 at 03:06 PM GMT • comment • Reads 222 My first impreshion was that this was not your average school, classroom and bathroom location. The first day went really well though, all the other students seem really nise and all have a common goal to better their lifes. In order for me to be a succesful student I will have to apply myself and complete all assingments. Also I will have to do a better job of completing my blogs! Stephanie C -- First Impressions Article posted September 13, 2012 at 05:57 PM GMT • comment • Reads 296 Colin A -- Blog #1 Article posted October 15, 2012 at 04:17 AM GMT • comment (1) • Reads 225 My first impression of of the class is being very quiet. I was worried of being judged, because I was worried that I was not smart enough. My concern was that the classmates might make fun of me. My other impressions were how many students were and what ages groups there were . I wondered if the other students were nervous and excited like myself. I noticed a few other students sitting at the front with me on the first day. Francis B -- Blog #1 Article posted September 19, 2012 at 09:36 PM GMT • comment • Reads 277 Kayla B -- Blog 1 Article posted September 19, 2012 at 09:25 PM GMT • comment • Reads 273 I like this class. I find it's a very easy going envoriment,we go at a good pace. I like my classmates luckily they're all easy going and a funny group. I like that class kind of down sized because it's eaiser for us to get one on one. Our teachers cool and easy going. I am not worried when i have to ask her for en extention on my work. she also makes sure that everyones in the same spot or close to,which makes it easier not to fall behind. I am trying my hardest to keep up with the work and handing things in on time. I think if i just show up and do my best I'll be successful in this class. I've learned to ask for help or ask questions if I am not understanding something. My C -- first impression Article posted September 24, 2012 at 08:50 PM GMT • comment • Reads 246 Brandy D -- blog #1 Article posted September 24, 2012 at 08:39 PM GMT • comment • Reads 228 Part one - My first impression was that I thought that it would be easier then math. I guess I was wrong! The way I see it now being back in school these passed few weeks is that there is much more thinking involved. The room and building is easier to settle into due to the small classes. My classmates are very entertaining for the most part,They also can be alittle distracting when I am quietly working and deep in though. I like that the teachers they are more hands on help. While i was in high school i didn't get the kind of support and help that I do get here.I am very grateful for that.Helps me understand more of what I am learning. Part 2 - I will try my best to attend my classes and do all the work that is being asked to do. I will ask for help when and if I need to. I will be more of a class participant. I hope to work on my social skills and not shy away from involving myself in class discussions. Shirley M -- Blog #1 Article posted September 19, 2012 at 09:35 PM GMT • comment • Reads 248 This being my first time here, I was pleasantly surprised. The building is smaller and very comfortable with up to date equipment. The smaller classes makes for more one on one help with the teachers. Since I have been out of school for so long, I'm finding it a complete change of pace. With having only two subjects at this time, I'm not being over whelmed. The other students are so much younger but nice and understanding of someone so much older than them trying to learn the same stuff they are. I enjoy the comments and joking around they do to lighten the mood when needed. The teachers are very understanding and helpful with all the questions being asked.. Since I want my Gr.12 diploma I am going to try to do everything required of me and learn. I will try to show up for every class, on time and be prepared with assignments completed to the best of my ability. Matt M -- Blog #1 :) Article posted September 19, 2012 at 09:26 PM GMT • comment • Reads 305 Tyrah B -- First Impressions Article posted September 19, 2012 at 09:27 PM GMT • comment • Reads 289 When I walked in I knew it was gonna be different than highschool. The other school I went to was like this but it was indepandent. I like how you have more class time to do an assignment and the smaller classes. This is the most fun and worry free for school that i have been. I like that the location of the building is close and is in Transcona. I enjoy the work that we do its very easy. The teachers are awsome my favorite to be honest would be english its more relaxed. This semester I'm going to attend school everyday unless there is an emergancy. I will do my work and hand it in. I have a tendacy of forgetting to hand in my work so I'll have to be reminded. I will do my assignments to the best of abilty that I can. Kris C -- blog #1 Article posted September 19, 2012 at 09:25 PM GMT • comment • Reads 305 James A -- Article posted October 23, 2012 at 06:33 PM GMT • comment • Reads 146 Kayla A -- kayla arbeau Article posted September 25, 2012 at 07:55 PM GMT • comment • Reads 254 Margaret B -- Blog #1 Article posted October 1, 2012 at 02:24 AM GMT • comment • Reads 227 Adam B -- First Impressions Article posted November 3, 2012 at 08:40 AM GMT • comment (2) • Reads 191 Ryan M -- assignment 1 Article posted September 25, 2012 at 08:15 PM GMT • comment • Reads 275 I like the way adult classes are conducted as oppose to how high school was. This is my second time here except I didn't go past a week the first time. The work seems pretty straight forward so far and I can only expect the work to be building on the skills. I like that the teachers aren't too anal about the assignments and are understanding towards outside variables & the fact that not everyone goes at the same pace. The smaller building makes it much easier to find your way around which is always nice, KE was very confusing and Miles Mac was untill I went there for a while. My class seems good so far, everyone is nice and friendly which makes going back to school easier. I just have to force myself to stick to it, try not to miss any classes and not get behind in work and I think I'll be able to succeed. Supria C -- Article posted September 25, 2012 at 08:17 PM GMT • comment • Reads 213 Daniel E -- First Impressions Article posted September 25, 2012 at 07:30 PM GMT • comment • Reads 231 Brittany F -- First Impressions . . . Article posted September 25, 2012 at 08:07 PM GMT • comment • Reads 240 This is the first time I have taken classes at this school, and the first time I have been an adult student. I was really surprised when I showed up to our English class for the first time a few weeks ago; I couldn’t believe how big our classroom was. I remember years ago when this school was an elementary school and did not except the building to be the way it is. A few days ago I was actually talking with mom about the building because I was wondering if there was a gym here and where would it be? At first I’ll admit that I was not looking forward to doing blogs one bit, none of my other teachers that I’ve had throughout my life have ever done anything like this. After the test blog we did I’m a lot more open to the concept. This semester I will try my best to not fall behind in the assignments given. In high school it was too easy to fall behind and not care enough to get caught back up. I chose to be an adult student, so I know because it’s my choice I will put much more effort into the course. So far I really like the teacher style that Jody has and the twists she has on here assignments. For example our last assignment we were able to choose the article we wanted to work with rather than given one that might not interest us. I continue to look forward to the rest of the course and the work included. Shakila G -- blog #1 Article posted January 6, 2013 at 06:53 PM GMT • comment • Reads 76 Loammy G -- Blog #1 Article posted October 4, 2012 at 02:11 AM GMT • comment (1) • Reads 264 Alright, well my honest first impression of this class (and I’m going to be brutally honest here) was that I hate it. I, with a burning passion hate English because of the amount of writing. Worst of all opinion writing, I’ve always thought “why should I write about my opinion when my opinion doesn’t matter?” Lucky for Jody, who my first impression was that she looks incredibly cool for an English teacher, my first opinion of the English class was wrong. Everyone in the class seems like decent people who are there with honest intentions which I greatly appreciate and the work isn’t immensely difficult. Writing is by far not a skill I possess and I truly miss novel studies but my gut tells me I can accomplish this. I can succeed in the subject that I’ve failed a number of times. It’s quite baffling to me that only two years of being out of school has made such a difference in moral when it comes to education. I’m not sitting in this class because I have to, I want to be here. This time will be different from the other three times I’ve attempted to get my diploma; yes three times I have dropped out. No more of that however, I’m going to complete this class if it kills me. Even if I have to cut my hours at work, I will prioritize my education and respect what it can do for my future. My ass will be in that chair every class, and assignments will be completed. They may not be on time but that something I have to work on. This is a goal I am determined to accomplish, and ill do anything to achieve it. Joseph H -- Question! Tell Me What You Think About Me? Article posted October 4, 2012 at 09:31 AM GMT • comment • Reads 303 ^ That isn’t a question, it’s an imperative statement. Sometimes, first impressions lead to misconceptions. Anyway. 1) ‘Tis been nearly half a decade since I last set foot in a classroom, and I’m genuinely happy to be back. I suppose that speaks volumes of my altered state of mind. If you study the principles of learning, which interest me (along with the psychological concept of “flow”), you’ll find that one must be inclined to learn in order to do so. Now, you’re probably thinking, “nah, ya think?” It’s like saying, “you have to want to make a purchase before you fist over the cash.” Granted, this is all rather eye-rollingly obvious, but my point is, it explains the innumerable droves of tykes in schools today who are blatantly uninterested in anything but recess, how fast a clock’s hands move, and the looming weekend’s sleepover. Like them, I once saw little to no value in being all but forced into congregating like sheep in a room with bad chairs and appalling decor to be educated in things I knew I’d never remember anyway, things I didn’t give a hoot about. Thus, any attempts anyone made at teaching me in this frame of mind were utterly fruitless, and so I was simply wasting everyone’s time and money, including my own, which, to be honest, I think is pretty funny, although I’m aware that I shouldn’t, but I don’t care. You can easily guess what ended up happening. There is a time for departure, even when there is no certain place to go, but I basically vanished from the scholastic milieu on a whim. Um, well, it was more like the expedient path to spare my sanity… Okay, now, that’s cryptic, but it’s a sleep-inducing tale I’m sure you’ve no interest in whatsoever. Since then, I’ve come to realise that the pursuit of knowledge is an unabashed declaration of ignorance, which the spirit of inquiry haunts. In other words, because I venture a guess that you have no idea what the hell I’m talking about at this point, I’m much more interested in learning these days because of my seemingly insatiable, mostly selfish, desire for knowledge. This school’s environment seems far more hospitable than... uh, other...ones. Haha, don’t wanna go naming names now. In particular, the people, lack of stairs and eyeball-explodingly aggravating dissonance are things I really like. The small yet efficient space and horseshoe construction in which everything is just a walk around the corner away is great. I used to loathe how getting from one class to another in-between periods in high school was like a flippin’ hiker’s commute. Also, those touch screen Smart Board thingies in, like, every room are pretty damn swish. More money to spend due to the smaller space? I dunno. I think my peers are actually pretty cool people, and given my general dislike of humanity, you can take that as a compliment. :3 I’ve always felt that the best teachers would be people who didn’t like school in their youth, because they’d know what I couldn’t care less about, and be able to teach us, y’know, right; Jody is a living example of this, and I’m happy to know teachers like her even exist. In my experience, you’d either get some snooty cur who took themselves too seriously, or a cloudcuckoolander who was completely out of touch with reality. Here we have a teacher who likes Coca-Cola and omggoodmusic (:’D) who apparently didn’t blacklist me after I wrote her an entire paragraph about how I feel like one of the Angry Birds when dealing with people I deem stupid. So she’s obviously got a good sense of humour. Which I think more teachers need. Desperately. Speaking of the autobiography, it was slightly challenging for me to write, because, well, I’m not a narcissist. I obviously enjoy writing, just... not about myself. EVER. There’s great irony in the fact that we’ve all decided to be here ourselves, and thus are more focused, determined, and motivated than we ever were in our teens, and yet, the most laid-back, easy going mellow vibe permeates our days. That’s probably one of the best things about being here, really. 2) You need something in order to gain something. I require nothing to succeed except my strong desire to do so. I don’t have time to be defeated. Nazefa I -- My First Impression Article posted October 1, 2012 at 10:05 PM GMT • comment (1) • Reads 241 Nick S -- Test Blog #1 Article posted September 25, 2012 at 07:46 PM GMT • comment • Reads 248 Shaun L -- First Impressions Article posted September 25, 2012 at 07:57 PM GMT • comment • Reads 253 This is my first time here at Mcleod education center. I went to Transcona for about a month when I was 19. This school is a pretty good size, the classrooms are kind of small for the amount of students they have in them. Mostly everybody is friendly. Jody is a good teacher she explains things very well so that I think everybody understands. I’m not to fond of the work we have done or are going to do but English is not my favourite subject. My first impressions of this class was man I don’t like English but its not as bad as I remember. To ensure I succeed as an adult student I’m going to try and make it to every class so I know whats going on. I’m going to apply myself to my work especially English as that is my weakest subject. I will ask questions when I need help instead of being quiet. Most importantly though im just going to succeed because its something I want to do for myself. Alicia M -- blog #2 Article posted November 21, 2012 at 02:58 AM GMT • comment • Reads 168 Crystal M -- My First Impression Article posted September 25, 2012 at 07:46 PM GMT • comment • Reads 274 Theresa P -- blog 1 Article posted September 25, 2012 at 08:17 PM GMT • comment • Reads 254 Matthias S -- First Impression Article posted September 25, 2012 at 07:46 PM GMT • comment • Reads 228 Stephanie S -- blog one Andrew S -- First impressions aren't everything. Article posted October 23, 2012 at 10:28 PM GMT • comment • Reads 174 Paula S -- Blog# 1 Article posted December 6, 2012 at 05:20 AM GMT • comment • Reads 112 Angelika S -- First Blog... Article posted September 25, 2012 at 08:16 PM GMT • comment • Reads 264 Conditions of Use

Friday, July 15, 2011. 333 comments:1 – 200 of 333 Newer› Newest» Hey! You just changed up your blog design!! I was just on your cilantro lime corn post, now I popped on this Oh-my-gosh-so yummy cinnamon roll cake post, and your blog is different- LOL! The blog looks good, but this cake looks AMAZING! Must try very soon! Thanks for posting, Laurie! :) ~Jen Thanks! Your recipe is now flying around Pinterest! :) found you on Pinterest and looks amazing!! Gonna try it! First visit from Pinterest! Cinnamon rolls are in my top 3 desserts, so this cake looks like something I should try! Just found blog on pininterest. Now you are in my Google Reader.--- going to read archives now Yup, pinterest here too ;) Thanks for the recipe. Going to make it tonight for my hubs for breakfast, great recipe! Just found this through Pinterest - MUST try now!!! Love it!! :) Hi! Do you think I could mix this up the night before and bake it in the morning? Looks delish! Coming from Pinterest and this looks scrumptious! Totally have to try this. Looks soooo yummy! Oh, and I, too, found you on Pinterest. I'm one of your newest followers because of this delicous(!)looking recipe that I happened upon at Pinterest. I'm more from "the South" so I'm hoping to find some more new recipe ideas here! Blessings, Leslie This is breakfast food... right? Please say yes. Just popped over from Pinterest! Going to make this recipe tomorrow! Thanks! In the oven now! DELICIOUS! Made it Friday and ate it Saturday morning. It was definitely the best right out of the oven, but still SO good in the morning! AND it really was SO easy! I had everything in my cupboards already! If you haven't made this, try it! I saw the picture of these mouthwatering cinnamon buns on Pinterest and HAD to find the recipe. So glad I found your blog :) Found you via Pinterest and cannot wait to try this recipe out. Looks delish. got this off of pinterest...made the cake and it is so moist and flavorfull...i cheated on the icing and i opened a can of cream cheese whipped icing and melted it in microwave so i could drizzle it on top of cake...yummo I, too, found this on pinterest! Looks amazing and I cannot wait to try it! So amazing. We demolish a pan in a night at my house LOL. I am tempted to try cream cheese icing myself! Making it now. Is that right- 3 sticks of butter? yikes!! Smells great!! Oh my goodness, this was delicious! I just made it and it was fabulous! Guess 3 sticks of butter did the trick! Found you on Pinterest as well. Just made the cake and it is DIVINE!!! Love how the house smells. I put a link on my fb page! Pinterest guilty as well! This looks delicious! I'm thinking about making this as my husband's birthday "cake". Should I use regular (all-purpose) flour, cake flour, or self-rising flour? i'd like to know too if we can mix & refrig the night before & bake in the morning. I'd like to take to a teacher's meeting on monday. Hi! To answer a few questions....I used all purpose flour in the cake. I have never tried making it ahead of time and baking it the next day, so I'm just not sure if that could be done or not! Thanks! Oy to the vey. DELICOUS!!! Found on Pinterest, and I am in LOVE! This was VERY YUMMY! Thanks for sharing! I posted a link to it in my blog :) (Oh, and I found it on Pinterest) OMGosh!!! AMAZING is all I can say. If the cake tastes anything like the batter, then I can kiss this diet goodbye! ;) It is in the oven right now...I can't wait to try it. My husband and our daughter (3 years old) fought over who got to lick what.....the beater, the spatula, or the knife. Thank you for the wonderful recipe, I too found it on Pintrest. I made this last night and it was AMAZING...so so good!!!! THANK YOU! I love pinterest! :) It took me like 40 minutes to cook, now I'm just waiting for it to cool, it smells so good! I wasn't looking for a recipe for our Labor Day picnic, but I found one anyway. I clicked over from Pinterest, btw. Thanks! I just made this today and it was absolutely AMAZING!!!!! Melts in your mouth, buttery goodness!!! Thank you so much for sharing this!! :) saw the pic on pinterest and had to try it! it's in the oven now! thanks! This looks so good and I will give it a try VERY soon! That was the best cake EVER!!! Loved it! Will be making again soon, to share this time. :) Mine is in the oven! Also came from Pinterest! Just pinned this from Pinterest. Judging from the comments, I MUST go into my kitchen this moment and put to together!!!! Thanks for sharing it. Saw it on Pinterest and I am sitting here with a warm piece of the cake as I type! Mmmmmmmmm! If you've just read the recipe, I advise you to go straight into your kitchen and make it. I've pinned over a hundred things on Pinterest now, but this is the first time I've hit the kitchen immediately after pinning it. Just waiting for it to cool off a bit before we dig in. In the oven now! It smells sooooo good...I can't wait to taste it! I had everything in my pantry - it was perfect! Via Pinterest :) Just found this on pinterest :) Gonna make it and blog soon! Thanks... So yummy and easy to make from basic ingredients :) I'm another one from Pinterest...just took them out of the oven, and they smell AMAZING!! Taking them to work tomorrow for a birthday! It's in the oven now....smells so good. Can't wait to eat it. Found you on Pinterest. :) This Southern girl thinks your "up north" cooking, especially this recipe, sounds good! Jamie in GA OOOh crazy Pinterest fire! Baking this right now. I am going to try a caramel sauce instead of a glaze. I know....I am naughty! I too, got the recipe off Pinterest. It looked too good not to make. It's in the oven now. I thought the cake batter was quite thick for cake. I wonder if I did something wrong. I'm an experienced baker, and I followed the directions to a T. I will just have to see how it turned out when it comes out of the oven. I added 1/2 tsp. of baking soda and used buttermilk instead of the milk. I always substitute buttermilk for milk and haven't had a failure yet. Maybe that's what made the batter so thick? I found it hard to swirl the topping in. Any advice from those who have made it? Just made this! Super excited to see how it tastes! Hi. Another "Pinterest" visitor. Sounds YUM!! Hooray for Pinterest! I can't wait to try this!! Hi, I too am a Pinterest visitor. This recipe looks amazing... Going to try it soon. Thanks!! This cake looks wonderful! I've made this same recipe before a few times, but last time I used a third of the amount of butter called for in the cinnamon topping, and liked it better. Way too much, for me at least, the way it is written. I do not even know what Pinterest is. But the recipe looked delicious so it is in the oven, and the batter is yummy. My topping wasn't swirlable either so maybe won't be as pretty but it should still taste great, eh? Thank you for the recipe. Thank you!! This sounds wonderful!! Found this recipe on Pinterest too! It looks delicious! I can't wait to try it. just tried your recipe but with wholemeal flour and it tastes great. although I would put a little less of butter and suger in the topping. its a bit too much :)but of course its very tasty ;) Just made this and yum! I decreased the butter in the topping per the reviews and it turned out well! Another "found you on Pinterest" Wow! Just pulled this out of the oven and ate our first piece. SOOOO good!! Made it exactly as written and my husband is over the moon. So easy too! This looks delicious! Thanks for the recipe! Just made this, it turned out great!! As others did, I only used 1/2 stick of butter and 1 cup brown sugar for the topping. Thanks so much!! Found on Pinterest! Hi! Love the recipe. But i made it and it was real think batter. And it was hard to swril the knife threw. Is that how it is supposed to be? I cooked it and it took alog time and it was real dark on top . I dont know what i did maybe the Altitude? I live in Idaho.? thanks it is still good :) I made this and I added 1/2 block of cream cheese to the glaze... and it made the glaze a treat on it's on... soooo good. Is this best the day of or just as good a day later? Plan to make it tonight or tomorrow for a friend's birthday - she loves cinnamon rolls. I have just taken this out of the oven. Waiting for it to cool a little. Smells heavenly. I was just introduced to Pinterest. I will certainly keep coming back. Found this on pinterest and I'm so excited! I have been looking for a cinnamon roll cake recipe b/c last Christmas a doctor friend of ours had a patient that made him one and he shared it with us! Holy cow, my husband and I couldn't get enough, we were hooked! So I have been trying to find one and as soon as I came across the picture I was totally freakin out! ;) I'm going to make it tomorrow!! Thanks for sharing!! Found you on pinterest too. My dad has been a pinterest hater until today. He tried this recipe(which he found on pinterest) and we all LOVE it, including him!!! Thanks for bringing him over into the "dark side" of pinterest! It is dangerous that I have everything in the house to make this RIGHT NOW!! :) This is baking in the oven sa I type! I also saw the pic on Pinterest and knew I had to bake it as a pre-church surprise one Sunday morning! Gotta love Pinterest! Hello! This looks awesome! I am typing this with one hand because my other hand is busy shoveling forkfuls of this into my mouth. Now, to find a smaller pan to transfer it into before my husband comes home... :) Also - I added a quarter cup of chopped pecans to the topping. I thought I could count out some of the carbs by adding some protein. ;) I tried this tonight and added a cup of packed pumpkin to the mix and it adds a great spin on this delectable cake!! Mine is in the oven now!! I have already tested the batter and 'cinnamon swirl' it is AMAZING!! So the cake together should be astounding!! Thanks so much for sharing this recipe! I made this for a carry in for bosses day and everyone loved it so much that I almost didn't get a piece myself! So yummy, my family is now begging for me to make it again for them to eat! this was so D-LISH, i'm so glad i got to taste it. I have a family of 3... my husband and daughter couldnt even wait for the glaze. They drizzeled the glaze after they served themselve. thank you for sharing =) This was so d-lish!!! i cant wait to make it again =) thank you for sharing. This is soooo good. Found you through pinterest and made it for my husband instead of a regular birthday cake. It is quite the hit! Thank you for sharing this yummy recipe. This looks delicious! Keep up the good work! This looks amazing! I'm sure my boys will love these! yum! This is awesome...I used a white cake mix then proceeded with the other two steps. Thank you. I tried this today and it was delicious! The only thing is...when I put the topping on the cake mixture, I did it in dollops and then swirled it with the knife. Is this the way you recommend to do it? can't wait to make this recipe. I am really loving pinterest. Glad to have found you! Just saw you on Pinterest, gonna switch it to gluten free and enjoy!! Just saw this on Pinterest too, and am now going to make this for my mother in law's bday dinner for tonight! Thanks for the wonderful recipe, I'm sure it will be a hit! :) tried it and LOVED it!!! Pure Yumminess. I followed it to a T. thanks! I just made these! They were amazing. Thanks for the recipe!! :) Sounds great! And way quicker than making cinnamon rolls. Heaven in a 9x13 pan! This is SO yummy! And since it is a "cinnamon roll" cake...can I eat it for breakfast? This looks like one amazing cake! I'm off to try it now! Made it gluten free and it was amazing! Oh, and no one noticed it was gluten free! In the oven now. It is taking a little longer to bake than it called for but the only problem with that is a house full of hungry boys waiting to dig in! It was very easy to make and sells delicious! I found this pan on sinful deliciousness on pinterest! I just made this and it left me and my family speechless! I am amazed that something as quick and easy to make is SO amazing! Thank you so much for sharing! This is so totally going to blow my diet! Heck, I am new to pinterest and everything that I have made is wonderful! My new addiction! Made this cake yesterday and it's gone, gone, gone! It was delicious and fills the cinnamon roll craving without all the fuss! Thank you for putting this on Pinterest. Just pulled this out of the oven...o...m...g...that is unreal. :) took about a half hour here and i only had margarine and that was fine too!!! Delicious and will be made again!!! Found you as well on Pinterest...Had to make it the very next day and Oh my goodness it was so moist, rich and tasted just like a cinnamon bun. Even my son who doesn't usually like cake loved it!!! Thank you! MMM this looks amazing. Will try it soon for sure. Got this off of pinterest as well....mine didn't turn out at all :( Yep...another pinterest stalker! My attempt is baking away right this minute! My husband used the last of our milk for cereal before I could make the glaze! TYPICAL MAN! So I'm having to use sour cream, fingers crossed! made this today...so decadent! made this today...so decadent!! I will be making this! Thank you! Terrific recipe. My friend shared this with me, and I got a call we were having unexpected company dropping in. Whipped this up and served it warm out of the oven. Believe me, it was a hit. Will definitely be making this often in the future. Nice quick, easy-to-follow recipe. My husband likes it warmed up with apple sauce drizzled over it!! I'm making this today for company...I also found you on Pinterest, and I've wanted to try it for a while. Thanks! I just made it. I baked it for the 30 mins it called for but the inside was still undercooked. Is it supposed to be gooey? I gave my boys a piece and put it back in the oven for a few more minutes. It does taste yummy. I am thinking of letting the boys have a piece for breakfast with milk and some fruit. Amazing cake. I used less butter and icing sugar, but turned out divine! Thank you very much for my new favourite cake! I am planning on making this cake next week, and I was wondering if anyone tried the "mix the ingredients the night before" method and bake the next day, and what the end result was?! I made this cake for a women's Bible study this week, and it is fabulous! I know it's going to be a family favorite for years to come. I made this a few days ago, and it is fabulous, a new family favorite for sure! Pinned this on Pinterest a few weeks ago and just had time to make it, A-M-A-Z-I-N-G!! (added bonus the house smells amazing too!!) In the oven right now. I should be doing homework. Should be ready in 5 minutes, I'm super duper excited. Found it on pinterest, btw. It's in the oven right now. I came over here to see if anyone else still had a completely gooey middle after the recommended baking time? I wish I had thought to read the comments before I started - - I definitely would have cut back on the butter! Another pinner here! Going to make this today for the family, looks delicious! This looks SO amazing! Cinnamon rolls are my favorite, I can't wait to try! i have made this recipe twice over the weekend. AWESOME! For the glaze i added a couple tablespoons of cream cheese and loved it. i tried this recipe in a electric oven for the 28 minutes and turned out perfect. i then made it again a couple days later and baked it in my sisters oven (which is gas) and it was gooey in thr middle so i'm not sure if the gas stove has anything to do with the peoples that turned out gooey or not. I had a really gooey center as well, but the edges were really brown. Did anyone else use a non-stick pan? I can't figure out what I did wrong Have you ever mixed it up the night before (except the glaze) and refrigerated over-night? Then baked the next day? I love doing things like this for family holidays - if I can do most of the "work" the day/night before! Thanks! Pintrist rules! I made this tonight for the whole family; everyone's visiting for Thanksgiving. What a hit! I had to cook it a bit longer though, about 45 minutes. But it was well worth the wait... plus the house smelled delicious! Thanks Hi! I'll try to answer a few questions. I have never tried making this ahead of time and baking it the next day...sorry! I'm not sure what would happen. And I have no idea why some people are getting a gooey center. Sorry! I think if you use the toothpick test it should work to tell if it is done or not. Everyones ovens and pans are different. Your oven may take longer than 30 minutes. It is also important to stir in the melted butter SLOWLY, mixing well. Maybe cooling the butter slightly before mixing it in may help also. Another thing to try would be to bake it in 2 smaller pans...maybe it would bake more evenly. As for the amount of butter....hey I'm a Paula Deen fan...I can't get enough butter...and always look for rich recipes to make!!!!! Thanks! I'm a Pinaholic and just found this! I am going to try these on Thanksgiving morning. I usually make my own cinnamon rolls, but these look much easier! If they are as good as everyone says, I may be featuring them on my own blog for Christmas morning! (With your permission, of course!) Thanks for sharing! Monica@tiztheseason.wordpress.com Looks so good! Can't wait to make it! :D Found on pinterest, gonna make tomorrow for Thanksgiving! Mine are in the oven as we speak. My 10 y/o helped to make it and is so excited to try it!! Love Pinterest!!! Thanks for sharing!! This looks amazing! Will try it soon and will make it again for Christmas morning. Got this from Pinterest. thanks! This was delicious !!!! Making it for the second time today! DELICIOUS!!!! I pinned your cinnamon roll cake recipe...I made it! We LOVE -LOVE -LOVED it! 1-5 stars we give it a 6! Thank you for a delicious breakfast that will be added to the family favorites! Made this last night and it is deliscious :) I halved the recipe and used gluten free AP flour and powdered egg replacer. Turned out wonderful! I was scared because at the end of cooking time it still looked like liquid, but after cooling it firmed up. Delicious! The BEST GF, DF, EF recipe for a "cinnamon roll" EVER!!! Thank you, thank you, thank you...and my 9 yr old son with multiple allergies thanks you. Found this today on Pinterest! It was as fantastic as it sounded :) Thank you!! This looks AMAZING! Such a great idea :D This is actually in my oven as I type this...Thank you!! Ok...dumb question....plain or self rising flour? This looks A.M.A.Z.I.N.G....oh, and mine just came out of the oven!!! ( Its even better tasting then it looks!! (possible??) ) Making it as we speak!! :) This looked so good had to run out to the kitchen and make it. It is in teh oven right now....wanted something sweet and this certainly fits teh bill. Found on Pinterest! My husband is a man of very little comment and even he said "Oh, that really looks good. You better make that."!! I'm making it this week for a family Christmas gathering this Saturday! Can't wait to try it. I might have to make two...one to eat here at home and one for the gathering! :o) Thank you for the recipe!! I made this yesterday morning!!!I added chocolate chips... It was delicious!!! I brought this to work this morning and it was a HUGE hit! I have an insulated carrier with hot packs in it, so still warm even after my 45 min commute! I'm my co-workers new best friend! I did everything last night except mix it up with the butters & liquid. Had all my dry ingredients ready in a mixing bowl, the topping mix ready, pan greased, etc. Made it easier for someone who is not a "morning person" by nature. Love it! This will be our Christmas morning meal. Along with candy from the Stockings! Calories don't count on Christmas morning! Made this last night. Wife took it to work this morning for a focus group - they couldn't focus. So good. My dream of hosting my own cooking show is becoming a reality today!! I'm a librarian at a high school in Oklahoma and the Foods Teacher has asked me to prepare something for her class. In searching for yummy recipes, I came across yours! Thank you for posting pictures. The kids are going to LOOOOVE this!!! Angel from Oklahoma I was so exited to see this! My son loves cinnamon rolls, but usually isn't too crazy about cake. We haven't had too much luck with candles in the rolls. Glad I found this as his birthday is in 2 weeks! Cinnamon Rolls are something we eat nearly every weekend for breakfast or snack. This recipe sounds so delicious I'm making it for us tonight for dessert. Maybe some will survive until breakfast....lol. I can hardly wait to taste it because the picture looks divine. Thanks for sharing your recipe. Hi! Found via Pinterest, too. One question....when I put the topping it goes down in the batter....is it correct? The cake is in teh oven right now but I'm afraid it wasn't done properly...maybe I will try again tomorrow...any suggestion greately appreciated ;-) Um, hello? Where have you been all my life? This was AmAzInG! Thank you, Laurie, and thank you Pinterest. found you on Pinterest and looks amazing!! Gonna try it! Made this tonight for a Christmas party and it was such a huge hit!! I do believe next time I will reduce the butter in the topping. It seemed to make the bottom of the cake very greasy. But otherwise it came out perfect. I cooked it for 35 mins which was spot on. Thanks for the recipe! Based on these comments, I must get up and go to the kitchen to make this cake!! Also from Pinterest! So excited to try this, it looks AH-MAZE-ING! :) loved this cake! THANK YOU! also found via pinterest. i halved the butter in the cake and in the streusel, and it turned out just fine. next time, i'd add chopped nuts to the streusel, and more cinnamon. YUM! it was so very delicious - thank you! Just made it- and it is all its cracked up to be- great recipe! Thank you! Made these this morning but turned them into muffins instead of 9x13 pan. They cooked in about 25 min. and I put approx. 1 heaping TBL of struesel in each muffin. I then topped them with the glaze and they're incredible! 24 muffins. This sounds like perfect Christmas breakfast along with our traditional egg nog. these look insanely wonderful! now following you and can't wait to continue reading your recipe posts! Happy Holidays! Incredible! Changed it around a bit but was still delicious Also found this one on Pinterest (but didn't we all?) and decided to make it today. It's in the oven right now, and after reading the comments, I am wayy too excited. I loved this recipe but felt like there was way too much baking powder. Anyone else? How much could I cut out without ruining the cake? I saw this on Pinterest, but I'm bookmarking it...so I can make it someday.Hope you still have it by the time I make it! Just found this via Pinterest! SO excited to try this! :) Making this for breakfast on Christmas morning - found you on Pinterest and added your blog to my Google Reader. I can't wait to make this for Christmas morning! It looks heavenly!!! Just made this for Christmas morning and can't wait to dive into it! Wow....no one had dessert planned for Christmas dinner. I have everything in the pantry for this delicious looking cake and I know everyone will LOVE it! last night my kids pointed out to me that I didn't buy our traditional cinn rolls to have for Christmas breakfast. I printed out this recipe (had wanted to try it). I mixed everything for the cake, except for the butter, put it in the fridge. I then mixed up the cinn. mixture, except for the butter, covered and left it on the counter. I then measured out the powdered sugar and sat it aside. This a.m. when I got up I stirred the batter, added the butter and poured into pan. I then added the butter to the cinn. mix. and added it to the batter. It did take about 40 min. for it to get done. I then added the rest to the glaze. It came out so good and I was glad I did most of the work last night. We just spooned on the glaze as we ate it (my dad prefers it w/o glaze). I will make this for sure to take to school one day. Like most everyone else, I found the recipe on Pinterest. We made it to go along with our xmas morning stuff, and it was a HUGE hit. My mother in law requested the recipe, hahaha. Thanks for posting it! It's made the list for next year's xmas morning feast. I just made this recipe, it is in the oven right now. It was super easy to make literally mixed it up in less than 10 minutes. I am interested to see how it tastes :) Smells delish! I made this cake for a Christmas party with ladies from my church. I'm known for making good stuff and I ran out of time and ingredients for some of my usual recipes. I decided to check out Pinterest and saw the cake and decided I just had to do it. I wasn't disappointed and neither were any of the ladies! They all loved it and I shared the recipe. Thank you for some new yumminess! Found this on Pinterest and wanted to try it but I have one small question first. I assume with adding the baking powder the flour would be all-purpose? I know this can be a big deal and just wanted to double check. Thanks :) Yes...the flour is all purpose. Hope you enjoy! I made this on Christmas Eve for us to enjoy on Christmas morning while we unwrapped our presents. It was so easy I thought I missed a step. It was also very very delicious. I will be making it again tonight to bring in to the office tomorrow for my co workers to enjoy. Thanks for the recipe! Made this last night and it was soooo good!!! thank god for pinterest!! Well, of course I found this on Pinterest and made it for 2 different Christmas gatherings. It was a hit at both.... I baked both at the same time; one in a metal pan and one in glass dish (both 9x13). The one in the metal pan was done in less time than required; the glass dish took approximately 40 minutes. Honestly, the glass dish cake was 'prettier' on top and more moist but both were excellent. In fact, I finished off the last piece from the metal pan this morning and it was STILL moist :) Two thumbs up. Amazingly good. I actually didn't really want a 9x13 pan of this so I halved the recipe and baked it in an 8x8 pan for about 25 minutes. Came out perfectly! Thanks for the wonderful recipe! I made this for Christmas morning. It was wonderful! However, I found that my topping ended up at the bottom of the pan. Was I supposed to turn it out onto a platter before icing it? It was gooey and stuck to the bottom of the pan. I think that I will try turning it out next time. DELICIOUS though. I have made this twice this week it is so good!!! I've never found a recipe that I had to try right away until now. This is in the oven as I type. It's my reward for surviving oral surgery this week. Looks soft enough to eat without too much trouble. I love cinnamon rolls and have since I was a kid, but they are too time consuming to make. This recipe looked delicious and simple enough to try. I just made it and OH MY GOODNESS! It's more delicious than any cinnamon roll I've ever had. Me and three kids ate half of it. Thank you for sharing! Happy New Year to ME! LOVE this. My 10 year old son made it for treats tonight...even my food snob husband LOVED it...Thanks. (oh yeah, found it on Pinterest...now my hubby can't complain about the time I spend searching on it.) I made these for a brunch on New Years day and everyone loved them. I took the rest to my daughter and she called after I left and said she ate one piece and before she knew it had eaten half of another. lol...Needless to say I will be making these again and again! Looks AMAZING...trying to get the ingredients together (away from home) because I MUST try! Cut the recipe in half and baked in a 9x9" pan. Can't wait to try it!! Looks wonerful and easy for Sunday morning Another new finder from Pinterest! I just made this tonight after I saw it on Pinterest. It. Is. AMAZING! My boyfriend almost flipped. We ate some for dessert tonight--heated in the microwave with a scoop of Butter Pecan ice cream on top! Out of this world! Saw on Pinterest and cannot wait to try! Re-pinned this recipe to my pinterest site and I am now waiting for this scrumptious dessert to get out of the oven! Can't wait! Thanks so much! I repinned this to my Pinterest page and am now waiting for this scrumptious dessert to get out of the oven. Can't wait to try it! Thanks so much! My 1.5 yr old daughter & I had a messy good time making this wonderful treat!!! Found on Pintrest! Baking it now! I will be posting this on our family recipe blog if thats ok (credits to you :) Mmmm! Cant wait to eat it!! Found this on Pinterest and made it this morning! It was AHmazing!!! I do thing I will try it with some buttercream or cream cheese icing next time!!! Thanks I found this on Pinterest and am hoping to try this tomorrow. Another pinterest find...I made this tonight and it is SO good! Thanks for sharing. :) Lots of people asked...Can this recipe be made overnight and baked in the AM? I made the recipe yesterday afternoon, stuck it in the 'frige, and woke up this AM and baked it. I had to bake for 45 minutes. I even had the glaze made beforehand as well and had it chillin' in a separate bowl with the cake. It makes your whole house smell WONDERFUL as it bakes!! My hubby requested more glaze on it, so I'm gonna do a double batch of glaze next time I make this recipe. Hope that helps ya'll. made this today, yummy. also from pintrest. I do wish I had read the reviews b/c I agree 100% cut the topping either in half or less butter in it, it was too 'runny' once cooking/melting and left big spots in the cake once all that butter was melted. Also, not swirlable. Still very Yummy, not pretty though. Just found this today on Pinterest and making it now! Can't wait to eat it. I love all things cinnamon and I know this will be one of my new favorites! I found this on pinterest and decided to make it for dessert, I must say this is fabulous! And so easy to make! Thank you!

- dbarz Jan 31, 2013 at 12:14 pm wow.... I wish I was in that line!!! jinxednuance Jan 31, 2013 at 12:31 pm me too :( bbfanboi Jan 31, 2013 at 4:30 pm Kudos to Thorsten and the gang for making BlackBerry cool again! This is exciting!!!! imcurved Feb 1, 2013 at 2:43 am me three :( TMO_9000_32GB_PB AlKuqo Jan 31, 2013 at 12:41 pm Does anyone know if we can buy the phone directly from RIMM....ooopps I mean BlackBerry? Like maybe from their website? Apple allows you too... I am wondering if we can instead of waiting until March if we are willing to pay full price for it. jcpallitto Jan 31, 2013 at 1:58 pm Why dont you go to and see instead of commenting on every single post on crackberry asking the same thing? Bobert_123 Jan 31, 2013 at 6:20 pm U MAD BRO? Jimcmf Jan 31, 2013 at 8:43 pm If you need one now, go to EBay. People are paying thousands for these phones. iwasspartacus Jan 31, 2013 at 10:42 pm Well, you've heard of cross border shopping right? Just get it delivered to your American address or ask who is visiting Canada soon (I work on a project where half the consultants fly home to the U.S. every Thursday afternoon ... I'm in Calgary - going to play with a Z10 next week at BestBuy... Yay!!!!). FTW Bb10 Bob G Jan 31, 2013 at 1:00 pm I wonder how many of those in line are imposters (from the USA) ;) edyb Jan 31, 2013 at 3:22. edyb Feb 2, 2013 at 7:33. Jake Storm Jan 31, 2013 at 2:30 pm Nice to see. I'm glad it's launching in the UK first. It's a nice reward to the loyal fan base there (much more loyal than the U.S.) iwasspartacus Jan 31, 2013 at 10:47 pm B.I.N.G.O. It's why the U.S. is one of last to receive phones, it's going to be an uphill battle - nothing like a month of traction GLOBALLY to generate some buzz and build anticipation for our Yankee friends. framos242 Jan 31, 2013 at 12:17 pm I'm so jealous of the UK addicts... koolrosh Jan 31, 2013 at 12:17 pm Do they have enough phones for all those people? DCMMID Jan 31, 2013 at 12:17 pm The momentum from this early availability would have been a good going into a US release ... if ... the US release was in 2 weeks. DCMMID Jan 31, 2013 at 12:18 pm Whats up with all the fur ... ? 312 Jan 31, 2013 at 12:24 pm It's winter... sjwright Jan 31, 2013 at 12:31 pm Touche! MC_A_DOT Feb 1, 2013 at 3:56 am +10 it's freezing over here Playbook007 Jan 31, 2013 at 2:31 pm Yes...they like their fur. Nice! bb624 Jan 31, 2013 at 12:20 pm wish we had lines here in the US now....who knows what 2 months will bring. jelp2 Jan 31, 2013 at 1:06 pm It will bring tumble weeds and cob webs. :( stevejb Jan 31, 2013 at 1:11 pm I'd say due the reported lack of interest in BB anymore in the US, there wouldn't be lines. Which is probably why UK get the release first and NA have to wait. W Hoa Jan 31, 2013 at 2:15 pm Not all of NA has to wait. Just the US part. And to be technically correct the Mexico part too. Playbook007 Jan 31, 2013 at 2:34 pm When your media had a ball over trashing RIM all these years, and then not first on the list we have sour grapes? neteng1000 Jan 31, 2013 at 12:21 pm I would love to hear the reports of the phone being sold out on day 1 :) Playbook007 Jan 31, 2013 at 2:35 pm more than the numbers, I want to get real consumer feed back...not biased crap like on engadget. Jimcmf Jan 31, 2013 at 8:45 pm I wonder if every store had a line up like that? You can get it from ebay for about $1,500.00 LeeChung94 Jan 31, 2013 at 12:22 pm wow I want to be here now ..... Innerchild Jan 31, 2013 at 12:23 pm Love seeing that enthusiasm. Hopefully by March there will be lots of interest and demand for the Z10 here in the U.S. W Hoa Jan 31, 2013 at 2:16 pm And less fur. Playbook007 Jan 31, 2013 at 2:36 pm Really....whats wrong with fur? bitek Jan 31, 2013 at 12:24 pm Apple should be worried now. grnrprl Jan 31, 2013 at 12:25 pm Where was it and what for? I went today to one of Carphones to have a look at Z10. First of all there was no queue. They had two dummy Z10: black and white. They looked like a plastic toys! Is it true the back of original Z10 is plastic and looks almost like the one of LG L3 for £49.00? MikeGS Jan 31, 2013 at 12:28 pm The Dummy units are not a patch on the actual units. Handled a couple today for 10 minutes and they feel great in the hand. Although they use plastic in the build they feel sturdy. Compared to the GS3, one in each hand, there is no comparison. The soft touch back is sublime, I wanted to rub my face on it! grnrprl Jan 31, 2013 at 1:20 pm I'm sad because I was expecting something like PlayBook's rubber. I like it very much. Abrante Jan 31, 2013 at 12:29 pm "They looked like a plastic toys", what were you expecting the screen to turn on and off? You know there's a reason why they are called dummy phones right? Playbook007 Jan 31, 2013 at 2:38 pm No he doesn't because he is a dummy! Abrante Jan 31, 2013 at 12:30 pm -Double entry- grnrprl Jan 31, 2013 at 12:44 pm Please, read my question - it relates to the battery cover of the Z10. I love the one from 9780 or even 9860. Abrante Jan 31, 2013 at 12:48 pm I see. I did like the 9780 door too. But, lets face it, most people put "phone condoms" most of the time. so the feel might not mean much to the average user. Playbook007 Jan 31, 2013 at 2:39 pm yes if you have an iphone.....i want a phone that is tough and no dummy cover....they are completely stupid. MikeGS Jan 31, 2013 at 12:25 pm Picked up three Z10's today from Phones4U. Not for me though :-( Vodafone wouldn't sell them without a NEW contract. Ridiculous. Jimcmf Jan 31, 2013 at 8:46 pm Mike - How much did you pay? Did you wait in line at all? cgk Jan 31, 2013 at 12:35 pm What this article 'forgets' to mention is that the store in question had an appearance from Pixi Lotte (Popular singer in the UK) and they were giving playbooks out to the first 250 purchases - even Phone4u where the picture comes from titled it "Queuing to see Pixie at the launch of the @UK_BlackBerry in white on Oxford St London" So anyone got any pictures of queues where there are no celebrity appearances? Anyone got one of those and we have something to talk about.... EDIT: The article has been edited to include the Pixi Lotte appearance - so no I didn't miss it when I read it. revtech Jan 31, 2013 at 12:43 pm Thanks for the wet blanket . . Because we know that certainly no one else would stoop so low as to try marketing a product using local celebrities QC_Al Jan 31, 2013 at 2:15 pm Hi, huge BB fan and supporter here. However I do somewhat agree. I want to see what's going on at the stores without celebrity appearances and freebies being handed out. Just sayin'. I WILL be getting mine next week in Canada though eh! randall2580 Jan 31, 2013 at 2:40 pm The implication of this picture, without a mention of the give away or the celebrity, is that this is representative of all the UK stores selling BB10 today. The question is, is that a fair representation? There are enough CrackBerrians who are in the UK to tell us their anecdotal evidence at the local stores around the Country. I have bought most every major BB release on launch day here in the States (I got the 9810 instead of the 9900) and I have never had to wait on a line except the normal cue at the local AT&T Corp store so if I had to wait on a line like this - you bet I would report it here. Just Me Feb 1, 2013 at 2:02 pm I'm a big BB fan but there is not a chance I would ever wait in line to pay for a new phone. I would just come back the next day. I'll leave the lining up for the people who enjoy that kind of thing. In the meantime I'll be Skiing. HasKam Jan 31, 2013 at 12:30 pm Got mine yesterday at the launch, and i really love it. took me a while to get used to navigating around, but its almost second nature now. you guys wont be disappointed when you get your hands on it. Only complaint is the apps, which are not that great. but as we have heard, some big names are coming very soon. Oh and the micro sim is a pain. took forever to get my numbers on it. Playbook007 Jan 31, 2013 at 2:41 pm Don't care about Apps.....how is the browser performing? How is the stability? uzmarvel Jan 31, 2013 at 6:24 pm Browser is the best in its class. See youtube comparisons, they're not even final hardware Jimcmf Jan 31, 2013 at 8:49 pm Is it easy to swipe ....or do you have to do it twice? Jimcmf Jan 31, 2013 at 8:50 pm Is it easy to swipe ....or do you have to do it twice? Rob Robertson Jan 31, 2013 at 12:31 pm Never thought I'd see the day.... BlackBerries are typically available at too many locations for this to happen. justcurious#WN Jan 31, 2013 at 12:35 pm So do BlackBerry fans get to be called "sheep" now? luc aubuchon Jan 31, 2013 at 12:40 pm I guess so haha On a serious note, it is a shame that a Canadian Company distribute their phone in a different country on the opening day. bbfanboi Jan 31, 2013 at 4:31 pm Unfortunately, the carriers rule. They own the networks. revtech Jan 31, 2013 at 12:45 pm Guess that would be Black Sheep then ;) aloofkid Jan 31, 2013 at 1:47 pm Nah I prefer to be called as a black horse. koool1 Jan 31, 2013 at 12:39 pm I so wish I had one today. The wait continues... luc aubuchon Jan 31, 2013 at 12:41 pm Anyone knows when the update will come for the Playbook ? This is what I'm waiting for right now. Playbook007 Jan 31, 2013 at 2:43 pm Agree....If we had BB10 on our playbook and bridged our old Bold 9000 as I am doing now, wouldn't need a BB10 phone....seriously that is why I think they will delay the BB10 software for the playbook. Fucking Asshole Jan 31, 2013 at 12:49 pm Why do people buy products when they first come out? If I was going to buy this phone I would wait at least 6 months or at least until the first update. No way would I buy this the day after launch. Besides, anyone who stands in long lines like in the photo to buy a phone clearly has nothing else to do. Playbook007 Jan 31, 2013 at 2:44 pm If you live in the States you will get your way.....just kidding....lol redk Jan 31, 2013 at 12:50 pm Let me see the samsung folks come by and do one of their little samsung beam connections ;) Jonesy1966 Jan 31, 2013 at 12:59 pm Um, who's Pixi Lotte? AtomicFrost Jan 31, 2013 at 1:13 pm Sounds like she is some pop singer in the UK. However, it looks like her last name is spelled without the e? I hope that the Z10 sells well in Europe. A third solid competing OS in the smartphone market will help push more innovation in the marketplace. :) cbdwolff7 Jan 31, 2013 at 1:16 pm Big Mistake not having it available in US!! Stock down, 2 of my friends heading to other devices. Can"t seem to WAIT any longer. They are starting to use it as RIMM's (Blackberry) middle name. WAIT WAIT WAIT!! It is very frustrating. Playbook007 Jan 31, 2013 at 2:54 pm Stock is down due to profit taking.....i will watch for the bottom, buy back in and make more easy money.....as for your 2 friends, their short sightedness will come back to haunt them......they will have to wait even longer for their new contracts to expire so they can get the phone everyone is going to want....PS....don't let them drool all over yours.....lol. jimmychen17 Jan 31, 2013 at 1:19 pm Can anyone confirm if the Z10 supports ActiveSync? i.e., I can get Outlook emails just like my old iPhone but without the enterprise plan - I don't seem to find any 'official' info on BlackBerry's web site - and have to dig through forums ..... br14 Jan 31, 2013 at 1:56 pm Believe I read a review saying ActiveSync is supported (might even be the default for non-corporate). pmccartney Jan 31, 2013 at 4:09 pm Yes absolutely 100%. Activesync and or BES10 tw_ Jan 31, 2013 at 7:08 pm Yes, the Z10 supports ActiveSync. No enterprise plan needed. I can confirm that. AdamCockley Jan 31, 2013 at 1:22 pm I'm located in the UK and I have excited that Z10s was realising today but looked online and they are only selling the black ones, the white is coming out on the 18th Feb!! So gutted. Feel sorrow to the folks in The US. Like to note that there's a good deal with o2 unlimited Mins&Texts 1GB data for £26pm £99 upfront cost! beemaabeemababy Jan 31, 2013 at 1:33 pm Phones4u have exclusivity on the white Z10 for now. That's why you can't get it anywhere else. And that's why I called them at 9am this morning (when their upgrades lines opened) to have my new white BlackBerry delivered. I would have done the trek to London for the chance to get another 64gb PlayBook, but I have work! jocu Jan 31, 2013 at 3:33 pm Just checked the O2.co.uk website as this deal seemed too good to be true! The upfront cost is listed as £199, not £99 - perhaps it was a mis-print that was later corrected! beemaabeemababy Jan 31, 2013 at 5:12 pm I managed to get the phone for free on an upgrade. Unlimited minutes and texts, 1GB data, 2gb wifi hotspot access on a 24 month contract. All for £37/month. Not much data, I know. But I'm always in a wifi area these days. djrupey Jan 31, 2013 at 1:36 pm My BlackBerry experience is just over four years, Storm only, and two Playbooks. The PlayBooks are fantastic and gave me confidence that BB10 would be a great OS, although I had no illusions about it being perfect from day one. So here in the UK I ordered from Vodafone at 9.30am this morning online. There was some confusion about my details even though I have been a Vodafone customer for 25 years! Anyway, my order had to be cancelled and then re-entered at about 3pm, by which time they had apparently sold out. I began to despair. But at last I was put through to someone who I assume was a manager and he could not have been more helpful. He said that they would hopefully be showing stock again in 30 mins, and assured me that if that was the case I'd have my Z10 tomorrow (Friday 1st Feb). If not, it would be Monday. Needless to say I am beside myself with excitement. It has been a long two-year wait since my Storm 1 contract expired, so I went on a SIM-only contract while I waited patiently for BB10. I did not want to get tied into an OS 7 phone as it would have delayed my experience of what I came to see as a major, quantum leap forward for PlackBerry phones. Besides, my Storm had finally come good and was giving reliable service. I decided that I did not want to start all over again with a different ecosystem even though iPhone and Samsung seemed all the rage. So, all being well, tomorrow I will be a BB Z10 person at last. It's been a long, long wait. Whether it is tomorrow or Monday, I will start a diary thread about my Z10 experience so that those yet to receive theirs will have some idea of what to expect, from the perspective of an ordinary non-techie user. beemaabeemababy Jan 31, 2013 at 1:37 pm During my 9am call to phones4u this morning, the lady told me that she had 30 callers in the queue by about 9:15. By 9:30 when my upgrade was finalised, she told me that there were now 50 people in the queue! Seems like a strong demand first thing in the morning! drummer_god Jan 31, 2013 at 1:41 pm nice. Playbook007 Jan 31, 2013 at 2:56 pm God's speed my friend! ksean007 Jan 31, 2013 at 4:06 pm Just like me i should be receiving my Z10 tomorrow I received a text saying it was dispatched today, and like yourself I'll keep a working diary of how things are..I've had both storms and the 9800 so this is a major step up for all of us good luck by the way. TommiTommi Jan 31, 2013 at 2:08 pm Went in to a Phones4U in London this morning at about 11:30. I asked about BB10 and the chap gave me a demo unit to try. I think it is great - genuinely different interface, brilliant keypad (the best virtual one I have ever used) and competitive pricing. My contract is up in June for my 9105, I will be getting either the Z10 or Q10 in its place! (BTW there was no queue or crowd there- but that might have been earlier!) TommiTommi Jan 31, 2013 at 2:14 pm Pixie Lott is a pretty decent singer and well known here in the UK. One of her best songs 'All About Tonight' is great - in the video she uses a phone - but not a Blackberry! Playbook007 Jan 31, 2013 at 2:59 pm I am glad that the UK received their phones today.....nice to see some chaps who can actually type the english language......way to go mates! ksean007 Jan 31, 2013 at 4:00 pm Hi everyone I'm really sorry to hear of the USA delays, I used to live in NY for around 24 years and became a fan of blackberry quite a few years ago and now that I'm back in the UK and have been. With O2. For ages I was quite surprised at how they kept the release date hush hush..today I received a text to say the BB Z10 was available so I logged on to my account and within 5 minutes they sent a message saying it was dispatched and i should be receiving it tomorrow...my plan is on contract for 24 months and the phone is free @ £36 a month I will keep everyone in the loop. With my verdict but it looks damn good so far..here's hoping they speed things up so you can experience the new BlackBerry. twidget2iwo Jan 31, 2013 at 4:18 pm Luckily I didn't have to wait in line at all in Harrogate. Both Phones4U and Vodafone had a few in stock, and no one was queuing to get one. I LOVE MY 10!!! DuexNoir Jan 31, 2013 at 4:41 pm Awesome fansmanship BB UK!! I can't wait to be able to join you guys next week on the 5th with my own Z10! ~I am BlackBerry by choice~ BernFlo Jan 31, 2013 at 5:56 pm I am very happy for all of you who are now proud owners of BB10's and for all of you in Canada who will have one soon. For all of us in the US, stay strong, our day will come. world traveler and former ceo Jan 31, 2013 at 7:05 pm awsome! ... Canadians will be getting theirs Monday or Tuesday!!! .... bb10! Jackson15 Jan 31, 2013 at 7:13 pm Hi everyone. Bought mine on EE today. £28.50/month over 24 months for 1000 texts and minutes and 1 gb of data. Then 50 for the phone. It is being delivered tomorrow! When I called in I was told a lot of people were ordering it. I then played around with the phone at the EE shop. The sales rep was very excited and I have to say that the phone felt and looked great.. Compared it in the hand with iPhone and Samsung. Looking forward to it! slagman5 Jan 31, 2013 at 8:11 pm Gives me some hope. I always wonder why people would line up for a stupid phone like the iPhone, but seeing that people are excited for a phone that's actually innovative makes more sense to me... Jimcmf Jan 31, 2013 at 8:55 pm We need more line ups !!!! Everyone .... PLEASE go get one. We can BBM together. bovcrx Jan 31, 2013 at 11:10 pm Any Brits wanna trade for a note 2? ofutur Feb 1, 2013 at 5:37 am OMG, look at all the chavs and hipsters leaving iOS :D oufc_gav Feb 1, 2013 at 8:59 am OK, so that one shop had people outside because Pixie Lott was inside. Didn't happen in my city,in the morning I walk past 7 mobile phone shops on the way to work (at about 9am when they open). No-one was paying the slightest interest. i went into Phones4U on the way home, and had a look at a unit, spoke to a sales guy and asked about interest, and he said I was the first that had gone to the display all day (this was at 5.15pm). gordonthebull Feb 1, 2013 at 11:36 am what city are you in and are the stores in the quieter side of town? GoustiFruit Feb 1, 2013 at 9:53 am But why are they all wearing white ??? White is the fashion in UK ? Rootbrian Feb 4, 2013 at 5:58 am I can't wait to get the q10 from windmobile, I'll be in line for that thing!!!!!

? 237 comments:«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 237 Newer› Newest» Hey Kris. Thanks for the inviting welcome. I too, do not have cancer and I admit, I do feel weird posting sometimes. I'll definitely post more often. Thanks for the last post about death. I've had some weird moments lately regarding death, and you guys have put me at ease. What awesome ideas! I love them all! How do you do it? Kris, you keep me coming back (nearly everyday) to read the blog because I know you are writing from a pure, sincere, beautiful place. I have so much respect for someone who can do it all as you do everyday with so much beauty, grace, giggles, and compassion. Bravo for finding that place to live where your heart can sing and we can can all benefit from your sweet, sweet music! Thank you! Lots of lovin, -Miss Kate This town sounds awesome and such a lovely welcome! This book has been on my wishlist and it seems like the perfect time, and reason, to pick it up! I am so glad you posted this... I only comment occasionally because I feel like an outsider sometimes and I did have canSer. I think we can all feel isolated even in a room full of people just like ourselves. Building a community is a way to breakdown those barriers that keep us apart. I am actually sitting on pins and needles right now waiting for follow-up test results and I am trying to distract myself. I am here and waving hello to everyone. I love the way this community is shaping up. Kris, you have the best ideas... I love the whats on your list of inclusive discussions. Even those of us who have and cancer need to do other things and to have other interests to be whole. I am so on board... especially yes to the book club... and double yes to Micheal Pollen's new book. Mostly because it is in my purse right now and I have only read a page or two. Hi. I admit I have been visiting this site for a couple of months and have never posted before. I do not have cancer but my husband does, he has pancreatic cancer and had surgery in June and is now undergoing chemo. A couple of weeks ago he was hospitalized and needed another surgery, so the road has been extremely rough for him, but he is brave and strong and is doing well. Kris, we watched your movie on TLC in October, and my husband even bought your book at Whole Foods. We have been incorporating many changes into our lives due to your inspiration. I come to this blog every morning, I feel like I know all of you and you give us such hope and inspiration. And Callie, I am so happy for you & Duncan, I've been thinking of you all week. Hi everyone...as always, I love Kris's ideas -- especially the pix she chooses for her posts. Where DOES she get those? Inspires me to take my camera everywhere I go (since I live in Santa Fe, you know I can get some pretty weird stuff!). Great idea re In Defense of Food. And since there seems to be a thumbs up on the Ipod discussion, here's my list. You can get everything on Itunes if you want, except, I think, Jana Stanfield. She's a fantastic indie and specializes in uplifting songs. Her website is. Her song Next Right Step is a rip-snorter. Okay, here's my list (it's a long one, I just couldn't help myself!: In My Heaven, Mary Chapin Carpenter Roam, b-52s Shining Star, Earth Wind and Fire Shield of Faith, Alison Krauss/Union Station Every December Sky, Beth Nielsen Chapman Godspeed, Beth Nielsen Chapman Sand and Water, Beth Nielsen Chapman Hymns, Beth Nielsen Chapman Deeper Still, Beth Nielsen Chapman I Know You By Heart, Eva Cassidy Good to Go, Denver and the Mile-High Orchestra Sweet Will of God, Amy Grant Curious Thing, Amy Grant Take it to Jesus, Cheryl “Pepsi” Riley Right as Rain, The Band One by One, Doobie Bros Next Right Step, Jana Stanfield Late for Your Life, Mary Chapin Carpenter We Shall Be Happy, Ry Cooder The Mary Ellen Carter, Stan Rogers I Wanna Do It All, Terri Clark Acadian Two Step, Beausoleil Sin Wagon, Dixie Chicks Breakout, Swing Out Sister Take it as it Comes, Steve Winwood Power of Love, Huey Lewis Come Go With Me, The Beach Boys Overjoyed, Stevie Wonder Whenever You’re Ready, James Taylor Mas Alla, Gloria Estefan There’s a Rugged Road, Shawn Colvin GoodMorning Kris! Mmmmm!Such a warm and yummy invite that only you can extend.My lack of posting has been to busy with the usual appts and trying to finish up treatment.In addition to chemo & radiation,I recieve Herceptin for a year.I'm on the homestretch.NINE count them,NINE more treatments!I'm starting to soar I feel the wind in my face! It's time for me to start taking care of me.The doc's did their job,it's now my turn. Soooo,what can I do for my poor lil body after surgeries,chemo&rads?How do I begin to repair that damage?I look forward to making changes in life,but humbly ask for guidance in my transition.I will wobble and stagger down the path..but down the path I will go. I look forward toyour next book,and the book club and all of it!I'm so excited.Life is good,isn't it? Muahh!Kisses to everyone! Love,Peace and good vibes to all, Linda Kris, what the heck are we going to do with our Flavnoids person? There are what, 20 repeats here? oh well, trying to stay calm. love all the ideas. i'll read whatever. re the flavenoids guy...looks like our town got its first billboard. Or exhibitionist. Was wondering what would happened to me if my surgery=test was negative next week. Would I have to give this sweat community of bloggers? Hope for the worst so I could stay? Wow, God bless Kris. Now I can rest...that I too am welcome. It is a universe filled with people searching. Now I can stop and just groove with Freddie Fender...When the next tear drop falls and join in knowing you guys will be there before the next one falls. Kris, my dear young girl you must have your head on the heart of the most powerful universal being. Keep listening. As for the book I am open to anything new, and healthy. I love learning. It helps an aging brain stay young. Love the picture...always wanted to be a hippee. But Mom and Dad said no. Bummer. I still have a chance to be a hippee in my spirit. I never heard of this author. Is he good? Mary a.k.a. mhc I know gang, I am so sorry, flavanoids is like a hemmoroid. I don't think I can block him/it till I move the blog to my site. I've been digging around Blogger and the only option I can come up with so far is to make it so I have to approve every comment. Too much for me or to make members. Maybe we should do that. Flavs is a maniac with issues in the tissues. Glad you all love the new ideas!!!! xo Ok. I will come out of hiding and post. :) I do feel like an outsider sometimes because I do not have canSer as well...but canser is all around me. I admire all of you and you all have taught me so much. been juicing and been trying to get on the right track. nothing is keeping focused though. The thing is...I don't want the only way to keep my butt in gear or to have motivation is to actually GET canser! i want to do this for myself. my heatlh. to be gone with my yo-yoing once and for all, to stay healthy. anyway, thanks for your post today kris! can't wait for the many more! Hey Kris, Fantasic!!! All of the ideas.. Wow.. Love the book selection. And thanks for all the new townies and town sites to come. Your city of pearls my love. I love these Ipod selections. I know less I mean less than nothing about music but love it. I have books on my ipod.. from the week of hell... Eat Love Pray. I cannot wait to put on songs.. Thanks for all your loving kindness. Everything hit last night and Duncan and I spent the night laughing and crying and unwinding.. He does owe me some dancing.. but we were to tired to even move a toe. hahah.. I am now turning my prayers to Becky for tomorrow. Things will go over well!!! Know we love you and are there with you inside every breath. OH and for the flavinoid folks because Kris is going to get crazy on them. Lets all just ignore them and let them be deleted.. they are rude and could go broke at this rate. I am running off the saga of the week for a big blog oh the power of all of your thoughts and prayers on basicmissions.com it will be posted around 6 tonight. Not using anyones comments but mine just pulling my words.. come by and visit. Sandra J. that tribute to your dad is so lovely. Beautiful he is smiling and proud of you. I bet you can feel that already .. And that Monica we need her to be a regular. You cannot keep those blogs a secret but leave it to a sister to out you right. Alright. I am off. Work is calling and I am fiddling around wanting to take Saatchi to the beach for a break but I have a family in Cinncianti who has lost thier heat and they have a son with Acute lymphatic Leukemia and the bills are overwhelming them. It is criminal to be able to turn someones heat off when it is -10 degrees outside ... no matter what. Well say a prayer for them. Love you all. Check in later.. Gooney honey you dont have to make me anything .. just send me a smile and know I love you. I am not turning away you gift just feel so humbled by the sheer thought of it I have no way to repsond. My favorite color is green it is my God color... but I love all colors..specailly the bright ones orange, pink, yellow, red, the ones that vibrate with joy. I love you by the way. You teach me something each day. mch- you are on my heart today. Special prayers for you. And Kristy I am wanting to fly a banner with we're having a baby on it!!!!!!!!!!!!! first ever csc baby... but it will be one enlightened and well fed, happy healthy little buddha. Hugs everyone. Callie Going primitive I did a quick read on the excerpt of Pollan's book. Excellent. I want to go there... I have become very primitive lately in my art. Using fingers and palms instead of brushes seems to fit the deep moods I am in. I have even taken to twigs and leaves. My food going primitive is just one step further. It just seems to fit my style of life right now. The most primitive food I can think of...raw...before fire. Nuts, seeds, etc. Hi Kris! I agree w/ you 100%...I have been loving this community for months, but haven't posted in a long time. Here's some love... I think reading Michael Pollan's In Defense of Food together is a great idea! I just bought the book last week & have only read the introduction so far. It is awesome! I also had to run out & buy Eckhart Tolle's A New Earth: Awakening Your Life's Purpose after seeing it is Oprah's new book club selection! I have to stop buying books lately & do more reading of them. I am also very interested in healthcare in our country (and around the world.) I have been living w/ canser for 3 1/2 yrs & although I have excellent health insurance I do fear losin git or being denied care. And it hurts & makes me so angry to think of the millions of Americans who have no coverage! If you could inform us and possibly lead us in propelling our country toward free healthcare for all that would be amazing! This blog is so incredible...I thank you for it, and I promise to add my voice more often. love & miracles to all! Kris...what a perfect post, once again. How exactly do you know exactly what is needed? Such a talent. Bravo ;) Thanks all for your well wishes, congratulations and hip hip hoorays! It has been SUCH a long road to get here, and I am cautiously excited. I have another beta test tomorrow, so please pray that my numbers double. We need AT LEAST a level of 438... come on... big money... no whammies ! :) I am SO happy to see all of the new members of the community speak out and introduce themselves. I know of the nervousness of which you speak. I too was there... why would I post about infertility or wanting to become pregnant on THIS blog?? I have found (and I am sure you have too) that this blog isn't for people with canSer or without, with an illness or without, with great knowledge or without... it is for all of us who want to live a better, healthier and more fulfilling life. Those kind of people have no boundaries... and thank goodness for that... cause look at this community... ROCK! Namaste... Kristy xo Hey team, guess what I was looking forward to something to do after surgery. Turns out Pollan will be speaking in my state. Usually everything is on the other side of the country. Finally. UC Sanford, looks like a good one. Through his eat well site I found 4 farms in my area beside the health food store. Yippee!!!! Hey there cowgirls :) I am also one of those silent readers that never posts. A day or two after I found out a close family member of mine had cancer, I stumbled upon your documentary Kris. What an emotional journey you've made... I felt very emotional watching it. It has been such a help to read your thoughts and those of some other posters to try to better understand how my aunt must feel... since she so rarely says anything about how she is feeling about it all. Aside from that, I love seeing courage in the face of adversity. You are all such inspirations! Thanks for the welcome :) Geez i missed 2 posts! lol! I got some reading to do...Kris, I love all these ideas! books, pimp your ipod music lol! all the ideas-fun! Great mission statement! Also your picture for this post makes me wanna break out my birks! lol but I gave them away years ago after high school, my flipflops took over lol. ahhh I kinda wanna go out and buy a new pair of birks now! you bring out the hippie in me LOL So are all these new ideas gonna be on the new forum then? about when is it gonna be up? Looking forward to it :) Your book pick looks like a cool book-cheap on amazon too :) ...(i <3 amazon lol) rs-Manifesto/dp/1594201455/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product Wow cool! Hi all you new people who are posting already! sweet! :) Hi Kris! I have posted here once or twice and now I feel better about it!! I don't have cancer, but I have Crohn's disease and I eat a vegan diet to help with it. In fact I haven't had a flare up in over a year!!! 2 years ago I was in a hospital getting blood transfusions!! I feel great now (although I do take a lot of meds).. and I hope to post more on your blog now that I feel more welcomed!! Lauren N. AP Monkey! Girrrrl. I was justing thinking about you. Where is she? Glad you are back. Yup. These ideas will be on the forum, but for now we'll start on the blog. My hope is that the forum will be up by my cancerversary (valentines day). If not, then by the end of Feb. Fingers crossed. We had to find someone else to do it and now we're very excited about the web team we are putting together. xo! K I have to admit, uber excited about the forum, and the book club/iPod (I'm a total musicobsesser, which I guess comes in handy given my profession) discussions/and pretty much everything listed. And yes, the flavnoids poster can be quite a hassle but let's face it, most people posting on here are well aware of good ways and positive ways to just breeze through and past the ugly stuff and focus on the beautiful ones right? RIGHT! The picture makes me want to tug my Fryes up a little higher and dance around outside, but I have a feeling some professors would disapprove. Welcome to everybody new and old! I missed the last few posts but I'm catching up now, I missed all you gorgeous peoples! Following Kris’ lead about being a community, I would like to introduce myself and invite you all over for chats on the patio. I wrote a brief comment here a few days ago, but want to .. I have been smacking late stage lung canSer around for over 3 years now. It just did not know who it was messing with! I just finished my 45th chemo treatment. (Chemo treatment, # 39 on Alimta.) I work full time and live alone. That is the problem for me-I am a nervous nibbler and a bit tuckered when I get home, so have not made some of the changes I would like to make—like juicing and getting out for walks. I have so hated how it has changed my looks…until I began reading this blog. I was heartened to read that I was not alone. I was heartened to realize that it is not who I am… Thank you all for that. I also thank you, my new community, for making me feel less alone in this. I have not felt comfortable participating in support groups and there is not center in my town that offers complimentary care, support… So, here is what I would like to do. I would like to create a day of healing. Bring together folks to offer yoga, journaling, nutrition, and the like. I would like to ask you all for suggestions on creating this day for kick ass cowgirls and cowboys (so appropriate, since I live in Wyoming!). Thank you all. Callie and Duncan-Wahoo! You don't know how many days your words have guided me. Hugs, Chris in Wyoming Count me in! I'm quiet at times but still reading...I also write on my blog (daily) and was inspired by this post for my post today, so thanks! Rach Kris, Thanks for the invite. You and your blog community hae been a great source of inspiration. I was diagnosed with lung CA in 2005 Thanks to a fabulous holistic nutritionist, I have been eating raw, vegan diet for two years. It has been an awesome journey and it only keeps getting better and better. I have made two trips to The Tree of Life Rejuvenation Center, once for Whole Person Healing, and once for Zero Point. Both amazing visits. Kris, I loved your book and documentary. One phrase from your book that really hits home with me, is..."but it also takes a colossal leap of faith and a williness to break from the herd..." So true! Thanks for all you do. love, denise Okay, okay, I feel officially welcomed. Thank you for that, Kris. I just finished In Defense of Food. I definitely think we should all read it and discuss it. For me, a lot of it was preaching to the choir, but the research he cites, and the history of the nutrient-based diet, was fascinating to me. All this diet stuff gets so confusing, and he helped me to see why. (Marketing and money, duhhh.) As for flavs, I agree with Callie. Just quietly delete them. I had no idea flavs had even posted this morning til I read something about it in someone else's post. HI Kris!! Thanks for thinking of me!!!! :) big huge smiles on my face right now! Well I'm all caught up on the posts and comments- i commented too..I've missed the blog! glad to be back! I've just been cleaning my house, and getting all that stuff done that seems to haunt me around the house "you need to get that done, this done.." etc. all that weird, annoying stuff I keep putting off- that just keeps nagging & irriating me...I'm the queen of procrastination- so slowly and surely all is getting either finished,cleaned,fixed,or thrown out. lol! I'm so excited to see what your new web team is putting together! Anyway-Love you girl!!! Hi, I hope you don't receive a note from me twice. I wanted to say Hello to all and Thank you to Kris. This is a great place to visit. I appreciate all your hard work and your generous sharing. Do we need to do anything to join the back porch chat? I love your idea and think it will be great. Can I ask a question for those of you who have finished treatment? I finished 12/07 and now I am struggling with a severe depression. Almost daily all I do is hide with my head under the covers, I am not coping and find no inspiration to motivate to DO for myself and try to get out of my funk. Any suggestions or comments? thanks alot, violet! Hi Kris! Thanks for the kind and open invite to this great community! I figured today should be the day I finally post after such a warm welcome! I also don't have cancer but have been there done that 6 years ago. At 31 I was dx'd with breast cancer, had a mastectomy, reconstruction, and 6 months of chemo. Never really gave a thought to what I was eating, or how I was thinking! After treatment was over I really began to look at all those things so I could get my health back and maintain it. I started juicing, and really looking at what I was putting into my body on a daily basis realizing that my diet and lifestyle (as well as the peeps in it) was toxic! I read your book, and you are an incredible inspiration to me on a daily basis! I met you back in the fall at the open center in nyc for a book signing and it was a day I will not soon forget! I am learning so much here to add to my daily lifestyle to make it better and keep the big "C" stay far far away. I recently had a scare with something that showed up on an MRI scan of my good boob and 2 weeks ago I had a followup to see what the little benign bugger was doing and it was GONE!! Which of course I attribute to all the juicing, meditation, and better food I am putting into my body. It is really the first time I had concrete proof that is is all working! Which of course my docs have no interest in and don't believe. You have such a wonderful community here and you all inspire me every time I stop by. Thanks Kris for todays blog, it gave me the little nudge I needed to step forward into this beautiful circle of the CSC community! Lots of love and hugs, Cathy Thank you Kris!!! Michelle I'll be another one to come out of the closet, as it were, and admit to reading the blog almost daily but never posting myself. Thanks, Kris, for the welcome. I realized last night when I got home and was talking excitedly at dinner about Callie's news and my partner finally went, "Wait, who are these people you're talking about?" that I'd better sidle up to the table and introduce myself. So, hello to all, and thanks for the warm welcome to the back porch. I've been following along, juicing since October, and finally transitioning to vegetarian and probably vegan slowly but surely. Have to share that I feel even more committed after having a flex sig scope done this week to check out my colon. I was having some gastro distress and even though I'm 31, I don't have access to family history so the doctor erred on the side of caution and did the scope. Since it's done without sedation, I had the chance to watch the whole thing on screen and have to say that it was sort of magical and made me fall completely in love with my colon. It was so intricate and beautiful and vibrant and I was completely amazed at what goes on in there, how much work it does and how much it deserves my ongoing TLC. Seriously, the experience made me only want to put things into my body that my colon will love and adore, and so I feel ever committed to a deeper learning about this lifestyle. I also love me a book club, so count me in! I'll look forward to reading the first book. Callie, congrats congrats! I've never been more nervous or excited for a complete stranger and I'm in awe of the idea of Basic Missions. Look forward to following along to see how it all grows and develops. Be well, everyone! *heather* Oh My! I can not believe how many of you have been hiding out. Not that I don't understand. I was worried about posting too, but true to my nature (speaking before thinking....I hate that about me!) I just jumped in. I did finally confess to my worry of posting and Callie set my mind at ease. This blog is a godsend and I'm so happy we have so many new peeps today! WELCOME!!!!! Callie - I do not want anything in return, you have already given me something that is not material, and means more to me than a million dollars. I just want to do something for you in return. Kris too. But just so you don't think I'm full of it, it will be a few months, because what I want to give you is going to take me some time to make. So please just let me do this. I love green too! Jennifer I adore the idea of a community altar. So much comfort (and power) can be found in having a village praying for you/ a loved one. So glad to see our little village has some many friendly faces and hearts moving in! This is the place to live if you want to ooze sunshine. Welcome everyone! Kris, i didn't mean to moan about our flavnoid person. I liked your post a while ago when you let them have it and told them to have a nice life. I suppose that is what we should do. Who knows what lurks behind the post? Maybe they're acutally reading this and getting inspired! Nice to think so. I am glad we have so many new voices. Thanks, Callie for your prayers. I think you have a direct line, girl, and I already feel God cheering me on. No matter the outcome, it's about living. Love! Kris You must tell Oprah & Dr.Oz the news!You know they'd love to hear this!Especially Dr. Oz and what better voice to be heard in the medical community than his. Love,Peace & Great Vibes to all! Linda Muahh! I'm always a lurker and never a poster! But you inspired me to post something - LOVE THIS SITE! I don't have cancer but I do live an eco-vegan lifestyle and love coming here for inspiration! Hi all vintage and newbie posters! What a wonderful thing to read about all the different curve balls life has thrown us all and how we are fielding them.. what a team we all are! I am always telling people to come hear to join our community.. canser is certainly not a prerequisite for this course in miracles and love. Cherish this moment as it is truely all you have..the past is gone and the future has not happened.. yet what you do this instant can make that future glow.. love to you all deb Thanks to all of you townfolk for the warm welcome! I think many of us "watchers" were inspired to write in for the first time to chime in our congrats to Callie and Kristy on their wonderful news. Your post, as usual Kris, comes at just the right time. It's so kind of all of you to welcome us with open hearts - I've even invited some friends to the back porch as well : ) Who couldn't use the wisdom, grace and love found on these pages in their lives??? I may not have the canser part (see- I even learned how to spell it right!) - but I've got the crazy and sexy DOWN !!!! Love and peace to all- Monica I've been following you for quite some time, but have never posted. I never considered myself a lurker because I am surrounded by family canSer (breast, lung, colon, brain leukemia, prostate), but I did feel guilty nevertheless. Your post of today remininded me that although my body doesn't have canSer, my LIFE is filled with it. And being human and all, I've got lots of challenges and can use all the inspiration your blog is so sweetly dripping with. So I would like to join the ranks of supporters you've created here to share and contribute to the collective love and peace fest!! I have been so overcome with amazement at the strength by some of you that I couldn't be prouder or happier for your recent updates if you were my own sister/mother/best friend. So maybe some of my "behind the scenes" health and peace vibes found you all despite no actual posts? To Kris and the Community at large, Be Well, Gabrielle Kris, Amazing truly...have been reading the blog always and have your Oprah on Tivo...watch it every now and then and today was one of them! Hugs to you all... Sadie Hello Kris and new neighbors. Have been peeking over the fence for a couple of months now, but I decided this was the day to join in. I do not have cancer but had to make lifestyle changes a few years back.(autoimmune disorders were lurking) Vegeterian now and juicing daily. Making the transition to raw and getting lots of inspiration from everyone here. Looking forward to picking up Michael Pollen's new book and sharing. Joy Kris - I was just chopping some veggies for a soup I'm making, and I thought maybe it would be a good idea to add a recipe swap to the forum? I'm having a hard time coming up with different ways to fix veggies and I would love to hear some good recipes. Just a thought. Jennifer Going for genetic counseling on Monday the third, checking for BACA1 and BACA2. If this test is positive then prophylactic bilateral mastectomies. Save the Tata wearers. I am doing this to help my kids since they may need early detection. About insurance...a possitive BRCA1 or 2 may eventually affect thier coverage and mine. Isn't that awful. I was hoping to get done the way people do aids testing...in secret with #'s not names. I need to think about this one alittle. I was just looking over "In the defense of food"...I'm so excited! I feel like it will nourish my understanding of real food and help me continue to internalize why its vital to eat it and live off of it. "In Defense of Food" is an excellent choice. He has another book he wrote that also would be a good choice "Omnivore's Dilemma." In my little town I dream of solar panels on every house and electric cars or bikes (in my ideal town, no vehicle needed--walk/bike everywhere), organic living with locally grown food, composting, ecofriendly/vegan products products only. We need to care for the planet and its beautiful creatures the way we care for ourselves. I can't wait for plastic bags to be a thing of th past. And water bottles are about the worst thing--so so many in landfills like the planet is a giant garbage can. I hope all here are inspired to use reuseable bags for the grocery store & dump the bottled water--buy a reusable bottle and a water filter for your sink. That's just one more part of healthy living. Peace, love, veggies, and a green planet for all... Live simply so others can simply live........ Just came across your blog recently and still reading back posts and I've already fallen in love with the community you have here. This post inspired me to come out of "lurkville" as I like to call it and send you a big HUG and a jolly CHEERS! Glad to be here and ships ahoy! I'm definitely along for the ride and looking forward to all the things you've got coming up. I've been hearing so much about that book and as others have mentioned, seems to be a perfect time to pick it up! I forgot to mention a pet in every household---may we treat them as beloved family members as they so deserve & bask in the unconditional love they provide. If you are interested, the local animal shelters have too many that need a good home :) Are you sick of me yet? Thanks, Kris for the open invite. I have been reading for a while and thought I would finally post. I have never blogged/posted before. Love this site. Just bought your book. I think what I love the most is it makes me laugh. While going though chemo I tried to have a sense of humor about everything, and it really helped even on rough days. I have a PET scan next week and if all goes well (and I think it will, I feel great) I will be 5 years cancer free, dare I say "cured"? Going though treatment I was never comfortable about support groups, but after chemo, I moved out of state, away from my family and the only life I had ever known. So I never really connected with people my age who have had similar experiences, fears etc., It is nice to have this site and all you wonderful people. needless to say my nothing in my BC life is the same as my AC life. And I could not be more happy. I got maried 3 months ago, Trying to start a family. And living as happy as I know how. Thanks for all the insipation and I'm sure you will all be hearing more from me more often. ===================================== Miss Flavonoids: Treat Kris with More R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (she's earned it !) ===================================== Miss Flavonoids: Treat Kris with More R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (she's earned it !) ===================================== Sorry Kris, I couldn't resist ! Just adding some levity :-) Clint If your looking for a cancer killing cowboy kris... I maybe for hire! : ) I posted once or twice. I have no canSer - just autoimmune stuff! I originally posted under "Becky" without realizing that there was already one here!! OOPs - I'll use Becky B - Colorado from now on to distinguish myself! Thanks everyone for the positive feedback to my "lack of support from family" dilema. And guess what??? I bought my first juicer and I'm ready to rock! AND....I'm going in for Colon hydrotherapy Friday am!!! Can't wait to start cleaning out this polluted vessel and filling 'er up with the good stuff!! I love you all and will pray for our little community!! Kris, one minute I'm compelled to come out of the shadows as a "reader, not a poster" due to your insightful commentary on your vision of what death might be like....now I feel compelled to thank you for giving me the phrase "Flavs is a maniac with issues in the tissues"......why do I consistently read a canSer blog when I’m in generally good health?.....whether you realize it or not.....this blog is already about more then CanSer. I would welcome any of the activities/contributions you mentioned. I've mentioned before that while I'm not ill, my life has been touched by CanSer...I lost my boss to lung cancer last January. He was close to retirement, and I'm 36....but we still had a lot of fun going to lunch together and talking about work, life, women....my lack of women....you get the point. When he became ill....well, this was a man who had “been there, done that”....and he was a tough old guy. An old news director from NYC….you can picture him a little I’m sure. Discussions about his lung cancer were generally off limits....but his wisdom, combined with his current perspective made for some very interesting conversation.....needless to say, I miss those lunches. So for a long drawn out response...I would love to hear this groups views on politics, family, current state of affairs....anything....you all have a unique perspective that is a wonderful gift to share. Michael Great blog! I drop in now and again. My incredible wife & I are holistically healing my body of rectal cancer. An enormous process and an extraordinary journey. I regularly blog my experience as well as my passion for life and the gifts this cancer provides at: Stop by when you get a chance. Thanks for your contribution to us all! Bert Scholl How beautiful to see so many new people throwing open their "closet" doors to step into the room!!! It has become an amazing place to come to each day, meet new friends and learn so much. I so look forward to jumping on and jumping in to listen, chat, love, support and share life. Kris, tomorrow is my one-year canserversary (I love the phrase, hope you don't mind if I borrow it!). My kids are dancing with me now (its the only time I'll let my 9 year old son say, Mom - shake your ass!) So, I'm totally up for the ipod sharing, love the book club idea, and the electric altar...so awesome...Dr. Bav is up there now, she must feel the love! Clint, so ready for more of your wisdom and wit and hot guest blog spot - bring it all on! xo Sherry Kris -- you're wonderful! I bet you never hear that ;) I will have to admit that sometimes I delete my posts cuz I'm afraid I said something silly. I love this town sooo much! So glad to be a part of it. I will keep posting even if I'm sometimes silly. Well, I'm another long time reader who has never posted. Like some of the others, I don't have canser, although my mom did. I just had open heart surgery myself, at age 23, and I've found all of the posts and comments very inspiring as I've been going through recovery. The book club, forum, song lists, recipes, etc. all sound great to me! Thank you for sharing your stories and for setting up such a welcoming community! Oops, can I add a P.S.?? I have medical forum question, a poll I need to take to get some serious knowledgable answers to because I'm on the heebie-jeebie, superstition fence here. So Kris, if you'd rather I wait til your forum is up I will, but need some info before mid-March. Please give me a thumbs up or down....thanks Hey Sherry: Congratulations on your 1 year anniversary. Am glad you can "shake your ass" with your kiddies !! :-) nice to hear from you, Clint hey I just found a adult class in town in March for 25.00 to learn raw food . I hope you all could find one, as a newbie to raw this sounds good. What a wonderful welcome! I have been reading for a long time but never posted as I felt I didn't fit the Cancer criteria. I love all the ideas you have and would love to be part of your community. I just started taking Mildfullness classes and striving to live for the moment and really live for NOW and not worry about tomorrow. I dig you mission and consider myself moved into your town as the newest residence. Hi Everybody, I admit it too....Guilty as charged. I have been visiting this blog since I saw your show on TLC then I got the book (by the way, how do you do it all Kris, Show was awesome and book really touched my heart with fine humor and even the blogs are super cool) well, I really admire your attitude, talent, courage, Positive energy, humor and best of all the magnet personality. your positivity is really contagious and spreading the world Fortunately, I am not aware of having canSer. My older child has very severe multiple food allergies which has changed my life. I really appreciate you all and the knowledge that all of you have and must admit that I learn so much from you all. Thank you again very much Kris for sharing your knowledge and positivity with us every day. Good Luck to all of you. Iffat No, Granola...not sick of you. I think many of us have this dream. We all just need to move to the same place and DO all this stuff. Granola - I started recycling about a month ago. It was my new years resollution. My recycling bins are busting at the seems right now, I need to take them to the recycling station. I can't believe how much stuff I have that can be recycled, and feel really really good that I didn't send it to the land fill. Oprah did a Going Green show and that is what got me started. Thank god for Oprah! I love the animal shelters too. My last kitty "Jack" who I just lost, came from our local shelter and he was such a great cat. I will probably get another when I'm ready, from the shelter. I just hate going there and leaving without taking them all with me. Especially the dogs. They just seem so scarred and sad. Jennifer Pre-surgery week insomnia. Kris, I was wondering if you have ever thought of a healing package? I don't want to give you more work but a thought. I don't read much when I am really ill and I can't even go on the computer. I shot my TV, except for DVDs'. So I thought it would be nice for a book on CD read by your loving posse, they could read their own parts or a pro could depending on schudules and stuff. It would have healing music, and deep relaxation section all done by the best. Just a thought at 4:30am. mary aka mhc It is so hard to get your mind to turn off when you are worried about something. Especially something like surgery. I'm sure everything will go well and I'm sending you peacefull healing vibes. I've been struggling with insomnea myself. Not sleeping has a chain reaction on your health and mental state, and you need to be really strong for your surgery, so do whatever you need to do. Baths, Chamomile tea, soothing music. I think taking a supplement called melatonin helps you sleep too, but you should research that. We are here for you. Jennifer Hi Kris, thank you from one of your new Philips fans. I am no hippie (but could be). You helped me connect with some feelings that will help me deal with an adult daughter in distress. With love, some would call me "big daddy". You can too. Jennifer and mary aka mhc - Prior to a major surgery, my sweet baby sister sent me a wonderful CD - "Preparing for Surgery: Guided Imagery Exercises for Relaxation and Accelerated Healing". It's available on amazon.com. I had never done any kind of meditation and I found it extremely helpful. I even used it some nights post-surgery, when I was in pain and couldn't sleep. Just a suggestion for you : ) Hope it helps - as well as so many lifting you in prayer at our electronic altar. xoxo Mo Hello Loves, Kris Don't worry about the flavoids folks if we love the enough they will get guilty and go away. Wow so much is going on today. We have two Becky's so.... Becky with scans today... You are on my every fifteen minute major prayer list and my breath prayer list. Peace be in you with you and around you. Duncan explains God as being enveloped in a warm bath of love and just floating there. That is this blog and we are holding you tight so you will not fall. Becky B. and all the newbies.. welcome and please stay.. this is great. It is such a powerful thing to form a community and make positive changes in your lives well before you stump a toe much less get canser or any disease. I am becoming more convinced than ever that these foods and this method is the cure for all disease stored in the sanskrit writings we have been looking for forever.. the Askian tablets from Alexander the greats hiding places. All religious scholars have heard of them but not all beleive. I do.. Duncan has ALS- Lou Gehrigs disease from a virus he caught as a special ops in the military. Well he had his check up this month and that little auto-immune bugger is failing. He dropped 500 points in his trygl., has a chol. of 130 and for a man who was completely wheelchair bound, and had HAD diabetes.. He can now walk almost a mile. Has no diabetes and had very few seizures as a matter of fact he hasn't had one this month. That is down from 6 a day.. Dr. Bav clued me in to lots of nutrition books and we flew with this program. Precious heart that she is. By the way Bav if your reading the cancer dead paperwork has converted my brother in law.. hahaha We did it God did it... just a little time.. the proof is in the vegan pudding. haha.. Gooney.. you honor me.. I accept and cannot wait to see your face at the retreat in april 2009. Save up everyone.. I have paid for the building. Beds for forty bathroooms handicap accessible and the beach.. private bayhouse.. all you have to do is drive into Mobile and we will pool grocery money. I cannot wait.. this is for everyone.. bring the kids dont.. whatever.. just come. Cathy we are having miracles by the day doll you are the third. WHOWOOOOOHOOO! Clint- we are all in love with you secretly you know that. Congrads and celebrate.. Duncan and I are dancing the happy dance for you. Hurrah! Capi's wife You are doing great and an inspiration. Keep on posting woman. Mary I have Eat, Love Pray on my ipod it is so calming. I know surgery is scary, you will feel so much better after it is done. You are on my 15 minute list bigtime...too. I think the healing pack is a beautiful idea. We should make one up and have a rotation on sending it around. So if I have a book, cd and relaxing items... I send them to say Mary for her surgery, next person on surgery list gets sent it then the next.. then all the love and notes and energy gets there along with the book, cd, and whatever you wanted to add. Then again if Kris wants to sell one.. that would be great too. Well guys.. I have a prayer request I have a family with a child that has acute lymphatic leukemia and is sick,,,, the Mom is frantic because she is about to loss everything we have gotten the heat turned back on but for only 25 days and they need to go home.. and wont.. so pray for them.. They cannot foot this huge bill and keep their son and daughter in heat or food and they are insured. It is just a mess.. We will work it out but adding a dash of prayers and a pinch of love wont hurt. Kris.. I love the book.. and cannot wait for the discussion. Off to work. I needed a break.. Sorry this is so long. Love you all... prayers are also with Tae always.. and poopslinger stay around more.. your name makes me smile and your words touch my heart. Peace, Love and Veggies.. Duncan is joining our little group... that will be so nice.. he feels like he knows everyone and has kept up everyday.. and guess what.. He can spell.. Becky check in asap and let us know how you are from the scans and martha... how are you today? I am praying for you.. don't all will be fine. Hugs. Callie I haven't posted in ages. 2008 has been a rough year for me. That being said - I'm certain not as awful as it has been for others or could be. But I've come to realize that it's ok to admit that you're going through hard stuff, even though someone else may be going through something you see as "harder". It's still happening to you and it's still something you have to deal with. Anyway - My partner and I broke up JUST before New Years, I hurt my back on New Years day - which meant I couldn't work out and I'm still slowly working back into being active. I love running so that's been hard. And of course dealing with the break up. We lived together all January until he found a place he could move into (today). Other little things that just seem to add up when you're aleady dealing with something hard. Let's just say I lived off ice cream and cookies for a bit there. Hopefully I'll get back on track with the healthy here. I know it'll make me feel better but I really just didn't care. So with all this I just haven't been around online. I'm not certain how I'll handle Feb as I think that's when things will really hit home as I'll be living by myself. Anyway, thanks for the reminder that we're all just a great community here no matter what our health or state in life. PS: I got the PH Miracle book for xmas (ironically from my now ex-bf.) and am starting to read that and am hoping to follow up with some detoxing once I get back to a routine and am a bit more 'myself'. Aw welcome to everyone! Especially you newbies who don't have canser and for one reason or another, felt they didn't fit in. EVERYONE fits in here, that's what makes this group so awesome. Goony- I totally agree with the recycling sentiment. Once people educate themselves and really realize just HOW MUCH of every single thing you buy, purchase, use, touch, whatever, can be recycled, you'll find your recycling bin basically overflowing every week (mine does, it's almost got a life of it's own, honest, I named him George). I highly recommend every one take the time to educate themselves and learn about what can be recycled, why it can be recycled, and where you can take it in your area. Oh! And bring your own grocery bags! Lots of grocery stores, most actually, now offer you a discount if you bring your own bags and not to mention it helps eliminate TONS of waste. It's a win win. Hello to Kris and all the other folks in this wonderful GOD sent community. I tell you I had to stop crying before I try typing and posting again. I am just getting the hang of get’n around using things on this blog, seems I erase everything at least once during trying to post. I’m getting it tho……..just slow. Kris I am so proud of you, you have seen your path clearly and you are following your journey of love. I feel that love all of us feel that love. LOVE is something that makes the world go round, it is love from the heart in sharing and caring like you and all of us here, sharing and caring what a little thing to have such a BIG effect. I love all of your ideas! I will check Michael Pollan's latest book out. I am really aware of our food problems, and that it is a MAJOR problem and needs to be dealt with. It is so very important to get involved in buying local grown food, support local and you will be supporting your good health. BUY ORGANIC! I would like to share a little of what I have been dealing with as far as having insurance or the lack of. I live in the state of Oregon and for the first time in several years the state is opening up a lottery for 10,000 people in the state to get a basic health care plan. For one month they will except applications, then pick the lucky ones from a drawing……… I hope I’m one of the lucky ones, my nurse practitioner then tells me he could do more to help me if I can get it. BOY I can not tell you how that made me feel, knowing if I had money or insurance I could get help, this health care only available to folks with lots of money or good insurance something has to be done. A lot of folks in this country are suffering because of this. Your book and documentary have made me feel like ok I can do this or give it a dang good run for what energy I have left, I still have fight, I’ve been spunky, I got gumshion, I can do this ! Now I have this WONDERFUL COMMUNITY! I hope I will have something to share. I’m good at sharing my heart. Having all of you to share with is helping immensely. Plus I’m having to use the dictionary and reading more than I ever have, and I’m typing with 91/2 fingers…………..not so bad. My LOVE and thanks to ALL. Laura Kris, Thanks for the welcome. I have read your book, seen your movie and I try to read your blog almost everyday. I personally do not have cancer, but am surrounded by it. My husband had kidney cancer 2 years ago, my mother had breast cancer a year ago, best friend had skin cancer, co-works, other family members. I so enjoy how upbeat and uplifting you are. I have learned so much from reading your book and watching your movie. You are inspiring, as well as all the other women (and men) who are apart of the Canser community. Thank you, each and everyone of you are a blessing. Hello Kris & Others- Great blog! This is only the second one I've read, so I'm not even a lurker yet, but I did LOVE the TLC movie and saw you on Oprah too. So inspiring. I have bookmarked this back porch. I'll need to go back and figure out why you spell it CanSer. I've battled 3 different types of CSC myself. First dx was 13 years ago at age 22. It is a part of me but does not define me. I am always looking for ways to prevent #4 and continuously improve my lifestyle through nutrition, exercise, meditation. Sounds like this town just may help with all that and more! Sorry about all the deleted comments. Too sleepy. thanks everyone for the borrowed courage. My firewall can go down now and be call....Mary flavonoid dude go advertise some where else, you have made a pest of your self and you dont even talk you just take space with your adds, please stop or at least come out with some words so you fit in. advertising is not sharing and that is what this is all about. your like a high pressure salesman, in other words fast eddy and his suitcase company, speak up or leave gracefully. Thanks very much for the info on flavonoids! Hello Again! I want to go raw but I don't know where to start!! I am a vegan right now and I want to make my diet 60-70 percent raw. Any ideas on where I should start? I have a juicer and a blender.. I make a smoothie for breakfast every morning of frozen fruit, ginger, a banana and hemp or almond milk. I am not sure if those milks are considered raw? And I don't know what I should eat the rest of the day. Can someone help me!! :) Thanks so much!! I love this community! P.S. Today is my 24th birthday (hence the urge for change!) Thanks again! Lauren N. Are you guys getting spam mail now? Lauren N- I highly recommend the following books for newbies (besides Kris' gorgeousnesss!) The Raw Food Detox Diet (this book has specific stages and levels, and is one of the best books I've come across) The Raw Gourmet (fantastic, fantastic, fantastic) Welcome to the world! If you have any questions or need any help don't hesitate to ask! Thank You Dee, I have a book by David Klein.. I have crohns disease and his book says a vegan raw diet is best for that, so I am going to re-read that as well. I will check those other books out too. Thank you so much!! Lauren N Hi all: Re Mary's question about spam. I haven't gotten any yet. And you can probably put flavonoids on your list of blocked words on your spam filter. It won't help our town, but it will at least keep your personal mailbox litter free. I wonder if this person is using some kind of web crawler that just automatically finds blog communities talking about cancer. So he/she may not even know about this community and the effect he/she is having. (Except, now that I think of it, "this blog does not allow anonymous comments." So somewhere along the line, a human being in the Netherlands has to be paying attention to this. If only to type in the gobbledy-gook in the word verification box below.) Anyway, on to bigger/better subjects! Looking forward to reading Michael Pollan! Jamie: We have missed you...I know you will get back on the csc bus as soon as you are feeling in the groove. Falling off the horse is ok... just got to get back on! Bav: Thinking of you, keeping you in my prayers. Post and let us know what we can do to help. Deb debbiedoesraw.blogspot.com Love your ideas, where do you find all of them??? Goony, Thanks for chiming in about recycling and animal shelters. I am so sorry for the loss of your beloved Jack! I understand how greatly devasting that is. My pets are family. In continuation of our discussion, I think a healthy planet leads to healthy inhabitants. We need a healthy planet to grow healthy food, so we can eat organic/raw and not worry that our "raw organic" food is grown in soil polluted by runoff from a landfill or junkyard. I love this community. I think everyone here is open to making this planet healthier in our own pursuits of personal health. Compassion for others also is key. We are blessed to be living in this country. As I type, the atrocities in Darfur continue. This is purely unacceptable. It is overwhelming to think of the troubles in this world caused by humans. We can help. Even if every person does just one thing to make this world a better place, it will add up. Recycling, green living, donate time, money, or items to a chosen charity. Reach out to someone. Educate people. Kris & fellow bloggers--Thank you all for a creating a forum for such discussions! Just read today's news--2 mentally retarded women used to strap remote control bombs to, detonated in Baghdad pet bazaars--73 people killed. Unimaginable. It has to stop. Ilike the idea of passing a healing package around. Sounds like positive vibes. On a quick note: My daugther explained to me about hacking. White hat: Police or FBI theyprevent hackers from hacking into personal information. Grey Hat: someone who hacks for fun and pranks. Practical jokers. Black Hat: are people who try to shut down web site or blogs through hacking. I will put that word in my spam folder now. This will be the last time I mention it, because of the high the guy is getting over this site. Poooor sad person. Callie: You are too cute.... I love that with Life's big load that you carry, you are SO strong still to reach out to other people. It gives me a warm fuzzy on Steroids that your dancing again ! Clint I need a major immunity boost! I think I'm sick cuz I slacked off a bit on my raw diet, but I'm not sure. I've started working with kids again, which always end up getting me sick. It's pretty frustrating because my future plans will have me working with children in hospitals. I am always going to be working with kids, so I don't want to keep getting sick. Back when I was 19 I worked full-time at a daycare for a year and was sick every other week. seriously. I know that's supposed to happen, but I thought I would've built up an immunity toward the end of the year. Nope! And I'm always washing my hands. What do I do? Today I drank lots of juice, and ate salad to give my body a break. I'm hoping that along with affirmations of "I will be over this tomorrow" will help. But does anybody have any other suggestions? Now on a side note, this is an example of the kind of post I would delete because it's a little whiny :) Kris-- Thank you for all that you do for our sweet community. Me, I'm living la vida loca with all my canc and non-canc friends...one breath, one moment at a time. om, om, om Lauren, Ester-C. That works for me. I think you will like it. Some people like "airborne"--it is like an alka seltzer tablet. But it is herbs and can interfere if you are taking a prescription med. Let us know if you try it. Lauren~ this works amazingly for me- hope it will do the same for you- (if you are on a blood thinner-or have a condition that warrants risks of thinner blood then don't do this because oregano oil and garlic oil are natural blood thinners..(and actually most herbs are blood thinners, some can be taken, some cannot, alot of which can be taken with caution even if you got thin blood issues-talk to your doctor etc.)also disclaimer lol I'm not a doctor, this is just what I do for me and it works great. I take Ester C 1pill 3x a day(its a form of vitamin c that's way easier for your body to digest), the huge thing is- Oil of Oregano! its a natural antibiotic that kicks major butt! with out the gross side effects of an 'prescribed antiboitics' lol. I get mine from gnc- in a tincture and I take 10 drops in morning and 2-10 drops at night depending on how I feel. (you can try just a few drops of oil at first of the oregano just to make sure your body is ok with it, because 10 drops is a lot at first-my body is used to it etc.)then I take 4 garlic oil pills (another kick butt natural antibiotic) 2 in the morning, 2 at night...take the garlic with the oregano oil..the oregano oil helps combat the the garlic odor breath lol! oregano works like a parsley in that it gets rid of odor -it really works-but don't take the garlic 'powder'pills or the garlic odorless pill, they are useless- it needs to be the actually oil of garlic for full effect..anyway, then i don't drink any coffee, but drink alot of antioxidant tea,lemon tea,echineacha tea,and i don't exercise while I'm fighting a cold/sick...conserve your energy and let your body heal...anyway i kill off a cold almost immediately doing this routine. Also as a side note oregano oil as an awesome natural anit-inflammatory and works great for pain. even arthritis etc. (my cousin has a bad knee and she takes 5 drops of oregano oil a day and it keeps all the pain away lol ...before the oregano oil she used to take IB brophen everyday, then switch to naproxen , and just go back and for for years..now she takes nothing except for the oregano oil.) Lauren~ oh! and don't forget to be taking your whole food multi vitamins everyday. Lauren~ oh yeah maybe you can also take some Flavonoids! NOT! lol granola~ my friend did you get my comment on the other (final party)post yesterday? thanks for thinking of me! :) I cant believe that crazy sad story about those women! that's just horrific! I love how you are all about animal rescue! :) all my crazy lovely pets are rescues over the years :) 6 starving stray rescue cats, a rescue Labrador from a kill shelter, and an unwanted sweet lovebird lol...I got me a zoo here- but I love and adore them all! Hey gang...I think we should probably stop using the "F" word, just in case this is on some automated system that's looking for likely forums. The more the word is used, the more likely the automated system might feel (if systems can feel)that CSC Town is a good place to set up shop. lol your right! I think I egged it on that time oops LOL, sorry kris! I am very calm, sitting by my community...then a phone call. Come in Monday for one more invasive test before surgery. I said "No" it is my body, and I am tired of the invasiveness of testing. All day I have had an vision on my mind. All of us sitting on a huge wrap around, white porch, cream yellow house. Chatting over lemonade and granola bars. Mixing and making sure everyone feel welcomed. Fresh fruit slice laying on platters. A fresh veggie bar taking customized orders according to illness or health needs. Canser free children flying balloons. Waiting to hear about Becky's scan . . . Feeling lousy myself today. Have had stomach issues all week (related to Aunt Flo--for some reason, sometimes I bloat all up and my belly hurts for several days, like it's full of gas) and although yesterday was pretty good, I didn't eat a lot and last night had a glass of wine. Woke up with a headache and a hungover stomach. Going to go high raw the rest of the weekend, lots of juicing, no sugar or alcohol, and see if I can get back on track. Been into the sugar a bit this week, too, and that doesn't help. In fact, I'm ready to rethink this "fruit til noon" thing I've been doing a la Natalia Rose. Because I don't have canSer, I didn't see a big reason not to do it, but I dunno that it makes me feel that good. But a green juice at 7:30 isn't enough to get me through the morning without getting lightheaded and woozy by 9:30. Anyone got any great ideas for raw breakfast that's not fruit and not another juice? Mary, we crossed in cyberspace. Of course you said no to the new invasive test! Isn't surgery enough?! I love your image of the house with the porch. I also see tall green limeades, straight from the juicer . . . Thank you SO much apmonkey!! You're too funny. Maybe I will try the "f" word. Ya know, we now have a new obscene "f" word. Cool right? I'm gonna use it instead of the other obscene "f" word whenever I'm frustrated. Hey there, I was sitting in a MRI scanner on a couple of occasions in the past couple weeks and it gave me lots of time to think of all the wonderful people on this blog. I love the energy. I don't have cancer myself though my neuro brought it up 3 times during my last meeting (and that I should still consylt with a GP because it all isn't his specialty)...insane I think....but he just wants me to take care of myself and be aware of what's going on in this wild and wonderful body of mine ("as there are so many so many slow growing things out there we have to be vigilant") so with that I join the group. Lauren....The oregano oil is great. I also use it to stop colds in their tracks. A couple of drops under the tongue every few hours. I usually do this for two days. Pump up the probiotics and drink plenty of yummy green tea. Be well, Joy Hello everyone. Basic Me, thank you, you put a smile on my face today. I finally found a community I want to be a part of. I look forward to posting, reading and getting to know all of you. found out today my bosses wife has canser, so the first thing I did after work was buy her a copy of Crazy Sexy Cancer Tips. I hope she enjoys it as much as I have. I wil be thinking of all of you, stay positive!!! Holla to Poopslinger! Love reading your posts! Way cool re: rescued animals. You are awesome! Also, never heard of the oil of oregano--I am definately going to try it! And yes, I did read your post on the last blog :) Lauren--love your pic-cat sleeping on coat hangers. Laura--No health ins? BIG problem in this country! Can't imagine you have to win the lottery--even then, no guarantee of coverage! That reminds me, did anyone find this buried story (check cbs.com, business) Exxon Mobil Corp. on Friday posted the largest annual profit by a U.S. company - $40.6 billion HMMMM....... Kris, thanks for including everyone on your blog. I was so moved by your documentary and all the research you have done. I do not have cancer and I don't want to wait until I have it to get myself in optimal health. Thanks for giving us the tools to do that. I've been passionate about nutrition for years because of some health problems, but you're my kick in the butt to take it to the next level! I never thought to do wheatgrass shots or green shakes, now I love them...thanks! I'm even going to go to the Institute for Integrative Nutrition to spread the love and help others. I hope we can join forces to make a difference in the lives of many (of course, you've already done that!). Thanks so much for your inspiration! See you in Charleston! Good luck to everyone out there recovering...you are amazing! Anne, I love Natalia Rose's book too and have been trying to keep up with the level three menu but, like you, I get lightheaded in the morning if I only green juice, then fruit, so I've ventured out to this Ani's Raw food kitchen which I've found some good recipes in. You can actually watch the video on youtube and she guides you through the process. It was quite tasty. Here's the link: Good luck! Thanks, hard to stand up to people in white when you feel vulnerable. Good I am wearing my "she is trouble" pjs to the hospital. I know about the fruit in the morning. I have been cheating and using brown rice to help me. I have to keep my strength up for surgery. don't want to do to much to soon. As for pet rescue: Save a 10# dog. Anne, Oops!, I forgot to mention what the breakfast was on the youtube video link that I posted: it's a nut based "scramble" (almonds, sunflower seeds and more) that looks kind of like eggs in the end, served over baby spinach. I ate it for breakfast and it kept me very full. Sarah. Forgot: I too felt the cyperspace connection. It was spiritual. On the white coats part, I must say that...Hey since we are in the neighborhood....and we could take that ??? growth out too. Just Tooooo Much!!! I have something to keep me busy. Two of my friends: one her dad needing prayer alhymerzes. The other, after one year marriage on the rocks. I guess I don't have time to go quietly insane. One of my babies sisters who battle a aggressive form of breast canser set up a spa day for me before surgery. God bless the girl. Hi All, I truly appreciate each and every one of you and I would like you to know that. I admire this community and definitely want to be part of it- i may not believe colonics have enough evidence to back it's benefit up but I am trying to keep an open mind and would not discourage someone in my practice from doing it,if there is no potential harm. your words and your support on this blog give me great comfort. your desire for a strong healthy happy life can be contagious-esp when one is exhausted and forgets all about that.Your genuine support for each other reminds me of the good in this world and your honesty is refreshing. I have lost a friend to cancer because of someone like the flavaperson, who sells false hopes.often i wonder if i listened then to her hopes of what macrobiotic can do and suggest ot her it is a great idea if she would combine it with chemo.instead i told her i did not believe there is any evidence this alone would work .I deeply regret not having an open mind then and tuning in to her holistic quest.Maybe if i have listened to her she would have listened to me in return and have gave her self a chance of recovery with another round of chemo after recurrence of her ovarian tumor.Instead she risked her life with a herbalist that claimed he had the cure! I am bitter ,sad and angry when i think of her. your community helps my healing process.I admire and respect your intelligent approach in the combination of modern and alternative med and not choosing one over the other.I am now a strong believer in the importance of promoting the integrative approach in my region,esp when silly voices similar to the flavo person are unopposed.The logical combination of two schools is the answer and you do not underestimate the person own power in the recovery process.(vs beleiveing it is all the meds/procedure.etc) To me sexy crazy cancer the documentary , the book and the community.Is about all what Kris mentioned in this post . in all honesty I thank Kris for giving us a wake up call! to remind us through her story to push the pause button and re-evaluate what truly matters.It is also a chance to heal open wounds and not ignore them. have a great weekend everyone Reem sorry about grammer/spelling errors in my post macrobiotic =macrobiotic diet YAY!!! I'd love for that to be the first book ... it just so happens I bought that at B&N just the other week. Sounds very interesting. My life has taken some remarkable turns since becoming a part of this community. I have learned a great deal about life, health, strength and the power of love. This community is such a beautiful and bountiful source of energy that is available for anyone and everyone to tap into --- hop on the bandwagon! YEEHAW! ;) Because so many people think I am ridiculous to eat a vegan and/or raw diet it would be great if Crazy Sexy Cancer helped us find each other by location...so if we choose to we could meet away from the computer. We could also form Crazy Sexy Cancer Lifestyle Groups. I live in New York's Hudson Valley. Thank you so much for the invitation, Kris. I've always visited your blog for inspiration, and your special brand of humour. Now I'll feel free to post. It's always fun to be new in town and to meet a community of diverse people. Yours is so very welcoming and enriching. light, love, peace + joy, Di Good morning family, Since is is a favorite topic on this blog and I need to be "moved", I'm going to ask for your experiences and ideas. Poo. I haven't in days and I have been stuffing as much fiber into me that I'm starting to feel like a cornucopia. Still, nothing. Combining foods properly (most of the time...dinner in my down fall), juicing every day, drinking tons of water. What gives? Hey Kris, I am a subscriber to Natural Health magazine and every month they send me an email asking me to vote on which cover I like better. Today they sent me the one you are on!! I had to choose between the one you are on and another cover with a model on it.. of course, I chose your cover!! Yay! Can't wait to get this issue!!! Tae...go buy a fleet enema, fill it with pure water or add some wheat grass...after a few tries at it you will feel lighter and not so stopped up. Sorry, it works! deb Tae - Do you take a probiotic? I take one everynight before bed and it keeps things moving along. Jennifer Reem - You can't take responsibility for your friends passing. That is just not fair to you or her. You were being a good friend to her and giving her the best advice that you had. Maybe another approach would have worked, maybe it wouldn't. She would not want you to be feeling guilty. I am watching my father-in-law pass from cancer right now, and I hope I can follow my own advice. Not because I'm trying to talk him out of this way of fighting cancer, but because I can't talk him into it. He just won't eat vegetables. I'm trying to make peace with the fact that it is his life and he needs to do what he feels is right for him. The best we can do is be supportive and wrap them in a blanket of love. Jennifer Good Morning all! So good to be back and no longer a lurker! It is nice to have a warm community to come to share, learn from, and inspire. Callie, thanks for shout out! And I must say that I have never been so excited for someone I didn't know! Although I feel like I have come to know you through reading this blog. I am so very happy for your good news!! You must feel amazing girl! You rock! And what an inspiration you are! My dad was diagnosed in April with pancreatic cancer. He had a successful surgery, although he opted not to do the chemo they recommended for him. The doc said 8-12 months without doing the chemo. But who knows. Unfortunately he is not into this kind of stuff. Our relationship is not a close one but I still try to tell him about all the great things that I am doing for my health. It is so frustrating and sad for me to know that he doesn't seem to want to do anything to get well. I know all of this would help....I so believe it. But I guess you can't make someone else see it. I guess it is that part of me that just wants to save him. I know that I can't but the little girl inside me still wants to try.... Thanks Kris for such a wonderful inspiring place you have created! Hugs to all, Cathy :) Reem..I am so sorry. What an awful feeling when we think we have let someone down. Then they are gone...how can we do our the patch up work with the dead? I too have had a close mind. I am being tested for ovarian cancer. Ovarian cancer has a small survival rate. 20% even after all the chemo and surgery. No guarantees. So diet, exercise ect will give me an extra edge. Do you know I can't find one ovarian support group in town. Their just mostly breast. Most ovarians don't survive even with the best tx. Because it goes to you colon next and so on.It was a blessing to see in CSC to ovarian canser beaters. I saw what chemo has done to other family members. Not pretty. Canser tx can leave you with PTSD. A second and third round would be hard to do. Emotionally, physically or spiritually. Also, sometimes white coats give no hope, So what is a person with canser to do to feel a little power: diet exercise, vitamins, boosting the immune system is all we may have. It gives us hope, control and sense of powerful;over a somewhat powerless foe. I truly hurt for you. Hope you can find a way to make peace with yourself. Your friend I know is in a better place. Like my cousin Stevie who died of non-Hodgkin's lymphoma after he refused a second dose of chemo. I tried to save him. Puny me. try to save him. He had made his decision and had peace with it. I supported him, I supported him in something I knew was wrong.. Good Morning Everyone. Can you believe it is Saturday. What a week. M.h.c.- if you need to call someone at 3 am and need a voice call... honey.. I hate the hospital as you all know. Anyone here is a line. I am here and will certainly listen..251-648-6510. You may have to leave one message and I will call back asap. I truely believe that you did the right thing. Here is the way I think about it. If we do not say no to the medical establishment sometimes we feel so powerless. My oncologist knows I need time to think over what will be done to me. He threw a lung and lymph node biopsy in on me and we went 9 rounds. You can always go back for that or have it later if needed. Take your time it is your body. How are you? I hope all is better today and you can hear the birds singing and the sunshining. Almost over darlin' I am holding your hand thru cyberspace. Becky-I am holding my breath waiting on your to check it. I know all went well. But I am still praying and sending you all the ggod vibes I cam thing of. OH Anyone who needs an ear just call. Sherry... shake it baby shake it!!! Congrads my gorgeous friend. WHOOO hoooo.. what a land mark. Jamie february is going to be your month darling. You home will be your own private canyon ranch spa. Perfect foods prepared for you on your on fav. dishes crack out the china and crytal. Long baths with new books and spa pedis and mani on demand. You get control of the click and can sleep in the middle of the bed. Dont worry about the cookies and the choc. all of us need a holiday and you had one.. just get on the good food horse and your feelings will sore. Make them die over the bod... summer is coming and feeling good and being in the sunshine will make life seem like it is perfect. I am sorry you have gone thru all of this. Sometimes God just clears our paths becaue he has something sooo much better in mind for us.. eve though we cant see it.. Just wait miracles are coming. And be ready and lovely from loving your self for a while. Laura... I am going to give you a beatin' no... call me asap.. this is what I do honey.. get meds and treatment for folks who dont have insurance and help them get on some insurance. And we might be able to lobby a bit and get you on that plan. GO TO basicmissions.com and write me and call that number. Now dont worry if you dont want to.. that is cool too. But seriously I may be able to help. It is worth a try. If nothing else we can get the meds paid for for a year and that can give you some relief and some good care. lauren you are ahead of the game. Look in the back of Kris' book and there is a list of healing food books . Go to Debbie does raw who posts here web page.. she is amazing..on the foodie stuff Anne- eat.. honey..you will die on wone green smoothie in the a.m. find something on the diet. Saute greens and warm tofu or miso soup is so good in the morning although watch the soy. Reem- I know the fear that goes with the colonics.. But honey if I may be a nut. But Kris said I will would feel better so I did it and am doing it. Enemas and all and by gingo it works.. Gets those toxic particles out of your body. Take it slow. Start with the enemas. Oh and on the subject of getting things out of us.. aloe is amazing.. Duncan takes a lot of meds for pain and that causes things to pile up.. so this has helped him so much. One Tablespoon of aloevera each morning and voila.. working like clockwork.. we both are. Now that the diet is in full swing the problem goes away unless under stress.. Tae honey you are under stress.. add some aloe and relax .. walking helps to.mobility = motility. shake is baby. I hope all is well with you. OK.. ladies.. spread the word about basicmissions.com being able to help on the health care end.. and medicaid and disablity and extra food stamps if you need them to help with the high cost of eating green and 80/20 it can be expensive while sick. I am not saying I can help everyone but I do this all day so if you guys need me you go to the front of the list your my family. Clint.. hugs.. I am dancing today on my new leg and singing all day at the top of my lungs I kissed the dragon!!! I cannot wait to read your post. Duncan sends his love. It will be a hard day for him today. The mail didn't bring his prescriptions and his morphine should have arrived. Life.. so we may be biting the bullet today. But with all the blessings we have had.. he is happy.. and he is superman.. he would never ask for prayers but hey.. you know me.. OH and Kris' you can add askimet to your site. I think it is a download.. you can open it to approve all bloggers except some with the parameters your put up.. just words or phrases.. It works great. Duncan wanted you to know that and you don't have to approve each message. Ask your web people about that.. if you want. OK.. Love you all. Sorry this is long. I have been missing you guys ... Jennifer my love.. you are inspirational... gooney is one of my favorite wordss... it means precious. Peace love and veggies. Callie Welcome all new lurkers! WOW, WOW, WOW. Come out come out where ever you are. This is great! Couple O' things before the next post (which by the way will be by my Crazy Sexy hubby - yup, he too is a lurker who really wants to chat now. Granola - you bring up very import issues so I must officially elect you to the town counsil. True empowerment is a result of fierce activism. Couch potatos don't make leaders. So funny you mentioned the exxon earnings. I have been physically ill this week especially when I read an article in my local paper about people being forced to give up, abandon, or euthanize their pets because they can no longer pay for the feed due to the high price of oil and gasoline. But hey, Go Exxon! When we start to take better care of ourselves we shift our consciousness, we push away the fog and notice our precious green earth turning brown. If we mess that up then where will we get the nutritious veggies so needed for our alkalinity? The distorted and vicious power we have over the weakest members of our global community (especially our animal pals) creates a devasting pollution that is both spirit and physical. "Give it to me now, use it once and throw it out, I'm rich and I'm all about me so screw you." Hmmm, very immature don't ya think? This is such an important time in our countries history. Who will we elect? 100 more years of occupation and suffering in Iraq or a new regime with hopefully some new ideas and a few apologies? And how about some frickin' healthcare! I'm sick of lining the pockets of the drug companies, how about you? How did we come to live in a country where doctors are forced to ask the permission of corporations? Hmmm. PS. Republicans and Democrats are BOTH welcome in our town. This isn't about further isolation, it's about an honest conversation so that we can all make choices from an informed place. Cancer is an inner global warming, our flowing rivers turn stagnant and our terrain wilts - depleted and barren. As we clean up so must we clean up the world around us. Recycle, reuse and conserve. It feels so good to make a difference. go granola! Keep the chat going love. On another note, we all walk our own paths, we can preach and praise all we want but we can't pull the flower to force it to grow. we can't absorb the burden of changing a man/woman. Bottom line: The only time we can truly change a person is when they are in diapers! Change is a personal revelation/revolution. The light bulb switch is located on the inside of the individual challenged to wake up. Let go of the guilt and the frustration. When I was a macrobiotic nobody could tell me that I wouldn't be cured from rice. NOBODY! I had to find out on my own, to carve my own path. Some folks will never believe in the power the body has to heal itself. Bless them. Some folks truly believe that western medicine is the devil. Bless them. Our truth in this town is that we must remain open to both as we educate ourselves and take responibilty for what we can. To answer a few other questions: Yes, we will have a location on either the forum or the new site where you can list your location and create an actual meet up support group! Recipes too. Tae: In a pinch you can also try Solaray's Cal/Mag Citrate 1:1 ratio. I take 6 before bed when needed and yes, a probiotic too. I think you are just stressed and holding for obvious reasons. To everyone waiting for test results this week: Breathe.....right now, breathe......The town will rally around you. No matter what you hear, you have a home and a place here. Ok, off to the dump to recycle, then Brian and I are going to the bookstore to get started on the book club selection. Maybe the gym too. yuck. More soon.... I was feeling lousy since the two day detox. So because it is before next weeks events. I am going slower. I was having the worst headaches and sugar cravings. Lot of fruit here to help that. Pre-diabetic...so I do you balance sugar and the lightness in the brain. Udo Oil? Melons for not pooing. Dearest Mary ,thank you for you words and as a white coat I would like to share something with you,SCIENCE IS NOT COMPLETE AND STUDIES ARE NOT PERFECT. What you were told about if you take 100 women with ovarian ca and follow them post chemo for 5 years, around 25 will be disease free after 5 yrs is true.However remember this is a mixed bag it is the 80 yr old woman with 20 yr old assumed to be the same.the aggressive tumor with the less aggressive.The main problem is not the aggressiveness of the tumor but th late diagnosis.PLEASE DO Not LET any number affect your spirits.when the test results are back you will know where you stand and will deal with it then-we are here for you .. to share the joy of knowing the results are negative and to support you if they are not. you are not alone. Regarding chemo I think the perception of some people of it is worse than actually going through it.when I worked in the oncology floor and rotations some people had the biggest optimism and greatest strength-one of my friend's reasons to turn away from chemo is her fear from hair loss as it happened the first time around. I see women defy CanSer by refusing to be affected by that .. not only they wear the nicest scarves and hats one even went on to designing her own lounge collection ( where PJ and matching head pieces - oh and did i tell you she lived way beyond the months we white coats expected- she is one hell of a woman ,still alive after 6 yrs :) from meeting her, she meeds maintanance chemo every 3 weeks..)In other words you are thinking of the dark side of chemo, but even my friend was canSer free after chemo for some time and she would have gone to remission again if she gave herself that chance.Chemo can silence a cancer and all the tools you mention diet,healthy lifestyle ..etc can help someone through the process and better prepare them for the journey. MARY ,I HAVE ONE REQUEST please listen to a number quoted as a percentage of cure or whatever and remember no one person is a number the number is just a POSSIBILITY.the more i work the more i believe it. Regarding support groups , there are a few online and one on facebook.I reached out to them when my friend made her mind and one of the ladies was nice enough to e-mail my friend and share her story which was similar.She also mentioned her mother who also had the tumor failed natural remedies alone and was combining the two treatments. I googled ovarian cancer and had many groups. all i joined at that time but cannot remember which exact one Holy was from. Thank you gain for your support and you know i mean it when I say we are really here for you if you ever need us. Jennifer..thank you for your words ..the blanket of love is where is hurts . bcs we had a huge fight when she made her choice .. i told her she had no right to be suicidal and the argument went own .. we did not talk for a yr before her death after 20 yrs of friendship.this is one of the things i am trying to come to peace with. all the best veryone Love Reem Forgetful me. On the subject of poo. This is quite inate...when a person is losing a lot...they hold onto a lot. It happened to me and hubby when we were with abuela. reem, thank you for the reassurance. I feel better now. Cathy, My husband also has pancreatic cancer & had succesful surgery, but he is doing the chemo. None of his doctors ever talked about time with us, thank God. I feel that with his treatments and by following a healthy lifestyle & diet he will be fine. All we can do is give it our all. I'm sorry your father doesn't want to do anything right now, but pancreatic cancer doesn't have a good outcome, maybe he just wants to enjoy the rest of his life without the side effects of the chemo. Maybe he will change his mind, but that is something only he can decide. Hi All, Wow, what a group! I, too, have been disgusted by Exxon. Until we all do our part, these huge oil companies are going to suck up way too much money. When I walk here, I usually go through a park that has lots of games going on on the weekends. I counted in one row, 15 out of the 16 cars are huge SUV's. Also, lots of Hummers down here. I'm not saying if you own an SUV you're an awful person, but in Scottsdale AZ you really don't need one! I've driven a Prius for 5 years & people always ask me, does it have enough "pick up". If I was racing in the Indy 500, I'd have to say no. The car is great. The newer ones get better mileage, mine gets about 46 miles per gallon, I guess the new ones can get up to 60! Before this car I had a VW Beetle, so I guess I am a hippie! (LOts of people will comment on my striped pants I wear, I can't help it, I'm addicted to stripes!) Not exactly professional wear for a pharmacist, but I wear the toned down ones when I'm working. Callie, can you have Duncan's Dr. or an Urgent Care clinic write him a couple day Rx to get him through? Kris, going to check out Pollan's book today on my long walk can cut past the book store. Good ideas you have for future topics. My best to all. Sue To Mary and all others who need a ray of hope and a liter of support STAT! For support go to Daily Strength.. it is an online community... you will also get tons of support from give it to me raw.com another online community.. I have a group I lead called cancer survivors..come join us! Lots of hope there.. On the subject of HOPE.. the best four letter word next to LOVE:) I am listening to a book on tape that is AMAZING and it is written by a hemo/onc dr...read it, listen to it.. just get it... It should be on your hit list right after Kris' CSC.. you need it in your arsenal people. It is called 'THE ANATOMY OF HOPE'.. and it is freakin amazing to hear all the case histories, including oncs that came down with the very same diseases they treat...their responses will suprise and enlighten you. The author is Jerome Groopman.. I am sure the library has it. Hope is so important, it is all we have, it is what Kris gives us, Callie, Tae, Goony, Bav, Jennifer, Lauren, Cllint, Micheal, they all give it to us.. we need it like we need oxygen. Hold onto the hope, never let it go.. it will be your miracle drug. love you all debbie debbiedoesraw.blogspot.com Come Vist Me! Tae- There's been SO many good suggestions for you, and while you say you've been drinking loads of water, anytime I'm 'backed up' I try to drink more than 1 gallon a day. Yes, it sounds like a lot, but it does your body good!! Besides that, I agree with everything everyone else said, Aloe Vera Juice and Probiotics are a God send but so are yoga, walking, Tai Chi and swimming. The more you stress about the 'no flow' zone, the more likely it is the 'no flow' zone will be out of business for quite awhile. As difficult as it may be, flood yourself with liquids, and give yourself a break! It's like anything else, the more you focus and harp/worry about it, the more likely it won't happen just because of the stress etc. A watched pot never boils you know? A watched colon never poops! It just has stage fright! Reem, Guilt is never a rational thing; it distorts all the faculties of the human mind, it perverts them, it leaves a person no longer in the full use of his reason, it puts him into confusion. by: Edmond Burke You were in a very emotional state of mind and made some decisions that you would never have done so otherwise. You were terrified of losing your friend. Now you punnish yourself because you think you need to suffer. The truth is that you made those decisions out of love and your friend knows this. She wouldn't want you to carry around so much pain and guilt because it will make you sick. Guilt is toxic. I don't want to make this about me, but trust that I know exactly what you are gonig through. I punished myself for a long time, and did end up getting sick. Your friend loves you and wants you to live a long, happy, healthy life. I'm sending you healing vibes today. Jennifer MHC - First I'd like to remind you that the studies done on the women with ovarian cancer were probably not done on CSC women who are healing their boddies with nutrition! So forget any numbers they have given you. You are not a part of that. Keep fighting with greens girl! Secondly, I have to tell you I love your big wrap around porch and pale yellow house. It happens to be on my bucket list. I daydream of a house like that all the time. I can taste the lemonade.......mmmm! Calming, healing vibes coming your way! Jennifer Hey Kris, I see what you are saying and agree with it.however from that experience and the sense of failure.. comes the drive to build the Arabic health information network.to help people make educated choices.like her herbalists , the voices that sell dreams need to have a loud counter voice to say"this what we know ,and you have that option of using the best of BOTH worlds" The web site i showed you is just one of the tools we will use,current URL is a demo ( talked some colleagues into it) .I am now trying securing the funds for it as it will be a sponsored project.when it comes to medical and health conditions it is very important ,i believe, for people to have resources in their own language.I will definitely keep you posted and everyone else here. you because I want your voice to be heard in another part of the world .it can make a difference. why share this with everyone else here, this is the happier ending I want to my story/smile .and It will happen,Godwilling.my intended launch date is late 08. for the health educators here,I found out from the pharmacists what they use when we consult them regarding drug/herbal interaction i find the monographs complete . other people here may find it beneficial, however it is only safe to use something after you talked to someone who understands your overall condition. hell i am beginning to sound like i am at work! .. sorry guys going for some green tea and veggie shopping Jennifer I appreciate every word you said and will keep it in mind, i agree with you ..i am trying t change the negative feelings to a positive energy..trying and will succeed but it is not easy as u know.Thank you ! have a great day everyone Callie - SHUT UP!!! Are you serious?! I had no idea that is what gooney meant. I just love the movie (goonies). My license plate even says goony (someone already took goonie). My favorite line is Goonies never say die! I love the whole message of that movie. Now I can smile more knowing it means precious!!! Jennifer Jennifer! That movie is MADE.OF.AWESOME. While I agree with what you said, I love that it means something sweeter (goony) I have to admit I too was thinking 'BUT DOWN HERE IS OUR TIME! OUR TIME!' and then going off on that big speech in my head. I know all of it by heart, I must have seen that movie at least 45 times. I was obsessed when I was little. Dee ! Yes, Yes, our time! LOL!! I was 12 when I first saw it. It was during the summer and I was spending a month with my grandparents. I watched that movie probably every day that month! Then about a year ago I bought it on DVD and now my children are hooked too. Jennifer Kris - Amen sister! I watched Oprah's show on recycling and going green and it made me a believer. There was a woman on the show that reminded me that just because the garbage men take our garbage way, doesn't mean it really goes away, it just goes someplace else. I went out the next day and bought 4 bins to put paper/plastic/metal/glass into. Please to go to find a recycling center in your area. It is right at the top of the page, just enter your zip code. It is simple! I found bins at sears.com for $9.00 a piece that stack, and have a flap that opens up on the top. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. Jennifer Hi all: Did you notice the post from our friend in the Netherlands asking who is removing his/her posts? The gall amazes me so much I have to grin at it. If this person was so eager to be a member of the town, he/she would have picked up on the string that maybe a billboard might not be the best way to say, "Howdy neighbor." Now that we're on to movies, I see from Mary's own blog that she's a big fan of You Can't Take It With You. I LOVE that movie! The first time I ever went into a theater in a bad mood and came out in a great mood was when I saw that movie at an art house showing classic Jimmy Stewart films. I'd also like to recommend Joe Versus the Volcano (don't run me out of town! the popular opinion is that it's a terrible movie but it's brilliant! And it's all about fear and embracing life) and Defending Your Life Re Pets: There's a fantastic story in today's NY Times about a no-kill sanctuary in Kanab, UT, which is taking care of Michael Vick's pit bulls. (Talk about "immature," heh Kris? Imagine someone explaining his brutality as immaturity, which is what Vick did) Anyway, the reason why I bring this story up right now is that the dedication of the people who work at that sanctuary is profound. And, what I do for a living is write about people who love their work. Work, like exercise and nutrition, feeds the soul. And people who are in the wrong jobs are putting themselves at risk for soul cancer. But people who are in the jobs who are right for them can really change the world!! This is my special cause in life: Restoring hope and bringing work wisdom to people so that their health in this aspect of their lives is robust. If you know of anyone who deeply loves their work, will you let me know about them? And if you want a pdf of my first book, Find Your Calling, Love Your Life, let me know and I'll send it to you. Hoping this didn't sound like a commercial, it's just my passion and I wanted to share it. Especially since we're talking animal rights and politics. The joy of work is also an essential topic to health living! I just love you guys and am totally hooked on Our Town. Speaking of pets, my oldest friend sent me this link. Evidently it's one of those sites where the more you click, the more money is donated to animal welfare organizations. This one seems to be legit (I tend to be pretty cynical about those "click to give" type sites) WOW this is getting better and better. Hello to ALL and thank you!! Jenny, I am in So. Oregon a bit far from you but maybe there are others out this way that want to hook up. Tae good luck! And it sounds like things should get moving soon with all the great info you are getting. After my surgery the drugs put me in the same place your in. After a month I had to do colonics. I was great…..and the relief. The thing I have to remember is to chew chew and then chew some more. Before cancer I would put the food in my mouth pop a few holes in it and swallow, chewing my food well helps me. Boy isn’t it funny how the smallest things in life can have such a BIG impact, chewing, deep breathing, and laughing. I love it! MHC I am right there with you, I have been looking for lung cancer survivors, seems there are not many around. I did not want the chemo either. My hospital experience was a nightmare, GOD was with me this one day when I asked what the nurse was giving me in my drugged stupor, she said its something the Dr ordered I asked what and then told her I never heard of the stuff and I didn’t want the shots, she insisted and I told my son don’t let her give that to me, thank GOD my son stood up and told her to leave and get the Dr right now. It was the wrong meds and would have been lethal. I have PTSD also. I know how you feel when you say having some power over this, eating the right food, exercising, going within and being still doing these things is giving me some power in choices I can make. Callie thanks so much for reaching out, and everybody else too. I put your number in my phone and would love to call and chat, I am afraid I wouldn’t be able to stop crying right now but there will be a time, I will try basicmissions.com and send you a letter also. Thanks again to all and my very best to all. Laura treat cancer~ Seriously, you are hilarious and annoying all at the same time. Who are you?? Why do you think you can treat cancer with your product? I have been to your site several times and all you are selling is nothing more than what a few fruits and vegetables can do...whats so special about your vitamin c? whats so special about your flavonoids? and I'm honestly asking you theses questions, not to be sarcastic... if I can get the same amount of flavonoids by eating some oranges and blueberries right now- why bother buying your product? who have you cured from cancer? Martha- I COMPLETELY agree. That's why I not only work (and am horribly in love with what I do) but I also volunteer. My volunteer work, is what makes me feel like...me. That's the only way to describe it. The work I've done in South Africa, Haiti, Egypt, Pakistan, Korea and especially here in the States, is the most meaningful thing in the world. Of course the world travels are on hold thanks to the wonderful c but it's still very much in the plan to get back ASAP! For now however, volunteering includes lots of ASPCA, RAINN and mentoring, as well as helping in food kitchens as much as grad school (WOO HARVARD YAY) and work allows. Sure I may be 'overdoing' it or 'pushing' myself, but I love what I do and I'd never give it up for ANYTHING in the world, let alone something like canSer. Mmm mm, no way honey. And LOL @ Joe Vs. The Volcano!! Listen well... I'm not selling any product. Flavonoids (quercetin) are very cheap and they are sold in vitamin stores. This mix is in theory a 100% cure for cancer. I can't make any guarantees ofcourse. Yes you can eat flavonoids by eating fruits, but you would need to eat about 500 apples to obtain the amount of flavonoids that is from supplements. This is like a new treatment protocol. Hopefully it will wipe out all cancer cells. No You Listen "treat cancer".. If you are a real person with a real cure WHY do you spam this site like an a**hole???? We are an open minded holistic type community but your tactics have made your site a sure failure with us. Wish you would "come out of the fl. closet" and be a real person who we might learn from. There.. I feel better. Well done Debbie!!! I've been tempted to write this guy an email off-blog but then I thought, "who am I to speak for the whole group?" even though I'm pretty sure I'd be spot on, as they say. So snaps to the Debster! The only person not invited here is back? I'm telling Clint,lol Peace, Linda Hey martha Thanks for the snaps! fyi to you all: you cannot contact 'treat".. the email address does not work. Hence the frustration level of us all at not being able to directly tell him what is what.. and yes, it is a him. Come out come out wherever you are "treat".. we welcome a real person, if you can stand to be real. deb Kris: Here's a topic I'd love to see you explore...Debbie's reaction to TC brings it to mind -- The Fighting Spirit. First of all TC's advice to "listen well" made me want to hurl (can we say "arrogant?" I knew you could) and Debbie's response, "no you listen" made me want to hurrah! A moment in your film that really struck me was when you expressed your rage, and I'm wondering what the impact is on us all when we feel like we have to endure beautifully (like Darryl Hannah repeatedly said in Steel Magnolias: "Freeze beautifully") like doing anything *beautifully* shows that we're in command of the situation -- sailing through any situation like Queen Elizabeth -- what *is* in her purse anyway? Reading "listen well" pushes the same button that gets pushed when I hear "what you need to understand is"...that just sends me into orbit . And it brings out the warrior princess in me. None of us can endure beautifully like Ali MacGraw did in Love Story. Especially when we're being talked down to. Or told to be good children and just take our meds because Drs orders only to discover a close-call mix-up, like what happened to Laura. While nothing makes me feel less attractive than a full-fledged "mad-on," I then think who says we have to be attractive all the time? I say, let your rage flag fly. Hi Kris, Thanks for the warm welcome and encouragement to share. I would like to pursue an educational program in alternative healing/nutrition/detox methods discussed here, in your documentary, and in your book. I find myself struggling to explain the new choices I have made, to become a healthier and happy person, while talking to friends and family. I would also like to pursue these topics in my writing with a deeper understanding of their inner workings. Any suggestions? Thank you:) I heard my name leenda, and I came..... DO NOT Make me open up a Can of SPROUTS on you !! . . . or it'll be Wheatgrass Shots at 20 paces ;-) Hello everyone! Miss you guys. I've been busy so I haven't been able to keep up with the conversations going on. Just wanted to let you all know I'm thinking of you. Hope everyone has fun on superbowl sunday and super tuesday!! Speaking of lurkers, I've been wondering what happened to Librarymom?? Are you lurking? Hope you're well! Martha and Debbie: You go girls! let those rage flags fly. Rage to my = passion and it is better to let it out then to stuff and force it to marinate into disease. You think the moments I showed in the film were real? OH NO! The moments on the cutting room floor were the ones that include flying plates and tear tornados! And let me tell you, I did not look very "pretty" - i looked HOT to trott! LOL! Real women, with real feelings and real emotions and reactions rule! Now Steven Chang AKA Flavs. Dear, we really appreciate your efforts to help us with all your research. How about you be respectful and kind and let this community simmer down a bit. Hon, you have a good heart and you mean well but your tactics are backfiring. Post as yourself, hang out, cut the flavs push and then we'll all welcome you. Gang, lets get back on track and move forward with grace, think Jackie O. I check the blog 2-4 times daily (if I'm not on the road) I'll just keep deleting if this problem continues. So ignore and just scroll down for now. Soon we'll have a secure place with membership. I wish I could move faster! Sundari - love, the kind of education found in this blog comes from self education. I got my holistic health educator certification at the Hippocrates Health Institute in West Palm Beach. I have also studied at The Tree of Life. I think they have a masters program. Most if not all of what you need you can and will find on your own. Traditional schools often push traditional out dated information on nutrition and wellness. hang with us, you'll learn aan awful lot. xox K Oh good Kris and Clint to the rescue!!! Poor guy,he'll never win,plus so much to learn here.Hope he takes advantage of that. Peace, Linda He said 20 shots of wheatgrass,that cracks me up. Hi all, I've never blogged before but this site is so wonderful. I'm a two year survivor of breast cancer and am so glad to find you. Thanks for all the great support and information Kris. I loved your book. Kris, sounds like you are very busy. On the road alot. Take good care of your immune system. Take your techno breaks also. As for the rest...just let it go. I raged the other night. I was just tired. A lot of stress. I keep asking myself what can I learn from this experience. What can I teach from this experience. Sorry Clint I slaughtered your funny,was laughing too hard.My bad. Peace, Linda Thank you for the invitation to the porch! I stumbled across your site just a couple of weeks ago and have been sharing it with my many loved ones who have been affected by cancer. I don't have cancer but in the past year it seems that my whole life has been altered by it. Both my husband's parents have been diagnosed with cancer in the past year. They are both in their late 50s. And my dear friend and business partner was diagnosed with lung cancer in April and just passed away on December 11th at age 39. Kris, your comment about the power of the mind and why one person makes it and another doesn't really hit home for us. Of all three of my loved ones diagnosed last year, my mother-in-law's prognosis was the gravest. She has pancreatic cancer. We just celebrated her one year cancerversary (thanks for the term Kris!). Her cancer has not grown or spread. Out of the three, she has been the only one doing a lot of integrative healing - naturopathic treatments, she's completely overhauled her diet and has been doing intense spiritual and emotional work, primarily N.E.T. - neuro emotional technique. She held off on chemo because her oncologist said it would give her a mere few extra weeks as her cancer was inoperable. Her response was "whoopdeefuckingdo!". She set out on her own journey of healing and has an incredible, invincible attitude. After many months of intense naturopathic treatment, it became clear the cancer wasn't spreading as predicted so she started chemo in the summer. We are so grateful that the cancer seems to be in check and hope that it continues. I just wanted to share that hope with anyone out there with a seemingly hopeless prognosis. I know my family and I thrive on stories of hope and encouragement. I send you all love and prayers. xxxxxrebeccaxxxxxx Hey Gang, No notes this evening. Just wanted to chime in on a few things. I think as humans we all have a call. I also beleive that Through our experiences all of us dicern our calls in life. I love my life. I love my job. I have had so many. But this is my passion. Now what really pisses me off is that daily... many many times daily I am contacted by men and women who are dog sick and cannt find medical care, food or meds. There are children out there going to bed without heat because their parents had to buy medicene. And milk.. Although we all know that milk is bad.. and causes all kinds of mucus and yuk.. most american families with children buy milk daily. Now just think if milk here is 5.69 a gallon then men and women are working one hour minus taxes for less than a gallon of milk. We are in a war that sends our vets home with inadequate care and they show up on my mission steps just needing a hand up.. tools to work with or a way to get thier meds.. because the va is so backlogged. Unless you were special ops or an officer .. tangent.. the mail ran late and why the universe is blessing us so much I have no idea but Duncans meds came and voila the worries are over. He is feeling much better and having his granola snack before we have our salad.. He has done some shopping therapy today and has enjoyed himself immensly. I confess my husband is a shop aholic. haha Anyway.. I am so grateful and so please. Yes his dr. would have written a short term med.. he just didn't want to bother them.. Thanks for the prayers Anyway..I am lost now. I got my limited brain off the subject. Like all of you I am so into recycling. I am so tired of plastic bottles.. come on.. those are my pet peeve.. how many can you use in day.. It is redundant. And exxon dont even go their. haha Clint.. I would love to see the kickass sprouts. Well I have to head off just wanted to chime in. I am programing a computer for a gift from the mission to a young client. I am looking forward to the new book. I bought it today but haven't started it yet. We need to begin to build a few homegrown co-ops.. find organic produce and purchase in bulk.. if you have friends on this think about it. My friend and I are saving tons by purchasing thru the farmers market or the growers. It took me awhile to find the right people but if you have a group in your area. Think about it most farmers markets have organics and will let anyone buy they just have to get the case ... so save the packaging and split the cases up between several friends.. Much cheaper and saves on gas and the hunting and fetching fresh things al week. Just a thought. Well. I am off to spend some quality time with dear old duncan and he sends his love and blessings. Callie ps sue got your notes thanks for visitng the site. it is getting a major over haul this week. Neat stuff coming. You touched my heart so much and thanks for the congrads.. love you all. I am glad Duncan recieved his meds. I get migraines and have to keep norco in the house. When I am out, I am out. Checking out you profiles= alot of nice people in this small world. More milatant shopping today...chocolate robe to go with my leopard slippers and lime green pjs. I am really going outside my color spectrum. And it feels great. MY hubby bought me a AMD notebook to take to hospital. Now just to sneak it in. As for bulk Pollans site has local coops and farms. Well hello my crazy sexy friends! It is nice to be back. I recently made a trip back to the Farber in Boston and officially graduated from having to back there every 3 months to every SIX! I don't have to go back until July! Woo-Hoo! Tomorrow morning I am off on a litte get-away with my husband to San Fran.....should be a blast. I am really looking forward to it! One of my biggest pet-peeves is the ones who seem to know-it-all and have the end all cure. If there was an end-all cure-all none-of-us, with or without cancer, would be here, trusting and embracing this so special community. I had people tell me if I did certain things that I would be cured of cancer and spared chemo etc. I was not going to gamble on my life that way. I have way to much to live for. Sure, I will listen to research and listen to claims with evidence, and be very open to innovative nutrition and alternative healing, but to claim that one product can cure cancer is just plain and simply ignorant and disrespectful to ALL of us here. I really love this blog and it does keep me focused and grounded in so many ways. Hang tough group! Thanks for your continued open and loving thoughts. Kris has started something extremely powerful and I am very proud to be part of it. Lets not let ignorance ruin that for us. Kris, one of my best friends, Jill, makes jewelry, specifically spirit-locks. She told me that someone met your parents at a wedding and gave them one to give to you. Did you receive it? Jill really wants you to have one. She made me one when I was diagnosed and I really don't take it off. It may sound silly but it was made with such love and I know it keeps my healthy spirits in and wipes out the bad. The spirit locks are from Thailand and the story behind it is that when one gets sick there spirit has gone a-stray. The spirit lock keeps the good spirits in and rids the bad. Before cancer I wouldn't have believed it, but now I feel naked without it and can really feel the power behind it. My sisters wear the same one as me and it keeps us all bonded. Holding on to something like that is so powerful. I hope you received it and I hope it can bring you as much strength and good spirits as it does me. XOXO Laura Hello amazing people! I haven't posted in a while... Hope you're all doing good. I am still cancer-free (YAY!!!!!) I am living like I mean it, as Kris says, moving a lot, rediscovering the amazing machine that is the human body. Give it love and veggies and it'll be happy! Sending you lots of love from snowy Montreal. Sophie Oh, I forgot, I registered to the Weekend to End Breast Cancer, walking 60K in 2 days this summer. I have to raise $2000, I'm aiming for way more! I am bribing friends into walking with me, promising them a pink FUCK CANCER tank top if they join...! Anyone else walking for the cause? Sophie... again! Here is a company out of eastern oregon, they deliver way out in to iowa, minnesota, n&s dakota, nebraska,montana, wyoming and all of the west n&s. I have bey doing business with these good folks for decades, they have a great choice of organics and tons of it. check out there web site and policies. they deliver once a month and they are very honorable folks.this place is great for neighborhood coops, they deliver right to your door if you are on there route, 400.00 min. order. i have a group of folks that buy as a group, pick up at a drop off point. take a look! my best to you all Laura2 Hi, We just came back from an appointment from a Microbiotic Counseller and read your post Kris. Guys please tell me can Brown rice really be the cure of all inflammation (in our case Allergies). it would be great to hear, what you think about Microbiotic especailly Kris if you could please tell me. Thank you guys Tomorrow I am going for shopping for the microbiotic way of life. would be waiting for your responses. Thanks you all Iffat Not to worry leenda ! (I knew what you meant ;-) Our Crazy Sexy Cowgirl handled the situation with pure class. Clint Callie: Love your posts, your a blessing sweetie.... you have a heart as BIG as Texas ! . . . and you don't wanna see the 20 paces thing, it can get messy. Hope 'Flavor Flavs' got the message. :-) Clint Good night all. My md gave me ativan and some ambien cr...sleep, sweet sleep to all. Drinking lots of fluids to flush them out (the meds). With CHF I have to stick to a 1 liter of fresh, agua purificada.Much love to everyones hearts. Mary. Igrade - Hi honey and welcome. First of all, are you cutting all the gluten out of your diet? How about dairy? Are you juicing green drinks? Are you cleansing your colon? Perhaps a good probiotic and some aloe will help you. Like anything new, it takes time to adjust to the GF diet. It is natural to mourn old food habits for a short time. Stay focused on all the foods you can eat. Yes, attitude is everything. Remember food is fuel, we need to change our attachment to it, find new joy in activities, spirituality, movies, walks, fun, joy, friends, books etc. Sometimes I feel like I need AA for chow! It's hard but it can be done, all you need to do is to change your mind. Stop yourself in your negative thought tracks and reprogram a smile. Remember, your mind is a radio station. What is your DJ playing love? Go grab a spiritual book and dive into it when you feel weak. Iffat - Healing is never one size fits all. Every person has a special path. That said, for me, macrobiotics did not work. It was a great place to start because it got me off the standard american diet. But long term (and I did it strictly for 2 solid years) it left me depleted. Raw foods is far superior for all the reasons we talk about on this blog. When you cook food above 118 degrees you kill the enzymes and deplete the vitamins and minerals. Macrobiotics doesn't advise anything raw, no supplements, no water, it is a grain based diet that can be very acidic. I can't agree with this approach. But that is my personal opinion. Others find it very helpful. You must decide on your own. Alraight, I won't write that much about flavonoids anymore. Only sometimes but you won't notice it that much. Reem I read your profile. Are you really going back war? I am so proud of you. Willing to go as a physcian. Though I do feel sorry for you too. But I know you will help out a lot of people. I will be praying for you. A best friend always lays down his life for another friend. You are laying down your life for strangers...I respect that. Callie=tried to leave you a email through your profile. I failed. I am to shy to call. A question for the community. I am taking a big risk here. I having a hard time being romantic with hubby. I am to into myself I think. Did anyone else feel this way when they were waiting for DX. Iffat, As Kris stated everyone has to find out what's best for them. I've heard macrobiotic for Celiac, however I think most important is anti-inflammatory, so decrease or eliminate all animal products is most important. How about combining macrobiotic with raw if you're not comfortable going all out with one or the other. It's hard to go 100% raw. If you'd like, you could try raw until dinner & then macrobiotic in the evening. Just a thought. Keep reading, experimenting & listen to your body. Kris knows her stuff. As she said, it may be different for you as you have a different condition you're dealing with. This is a great place to start! Sue Thanks Kris for your encouragement. Yes, I have eliminated all gluten and dairy and am juicing. My doc's say this is a long, slow process. Right now I will focus on being more positive. Be well. Iffat I wanted to suggest taking 'Turmeric' (yes, the spice) for the anti-inflammatory issue. This root is an amazing fighter against anything that's inflamed. I am surprised it's not spoken about more. I take 2 capsules of it 2x's a day, it's harmless, and doesn't bother digestion. Also, MSM (the sulphur mineral) would help you condition tons. I am in agreement with Kris . . . . Macrobiotics, is a good place to start...but... I did notice early on that there were a lot of pale, anemic people walking around the community, and they were assuming that they were all fine and well, when in fact, they needed vitamin and mineral supplementation. I was told by a counselor early on, to take supplements (and I did) and decided not to become one of the "macro-neurotic" crowd, and eat plates of brown rice everyday. Listen to you body, it is ALWAYS right....and is speaking to you....one just needs to listen. hope this helps, Clint Clint, you kill me. Flavor Flave?! You are even down with the pop culture references! And your RespectKris messages are still making me laugh. Callie is right, we all have a secret crush. Our boy is smart, funny, health-conscious...and ladies wait 'til you see a picture of him all growed up...handsome as George Clooney, our Clint! Dude, are you single? 'Cause my best friend is awfully cool...I'm kidding. Mostly. You are in Texas and she is in NYC. Otherwise, I might be trying to play Yenta. I'm SO happy to meet all of the new posters! Special shout out to DUNCAN!! How wonderful to hear from you! (You're welcome about the coconut oil.) ;) And welcome to my sweet sister Monica, who is hilariously shy about posting (not shy at all in real life). She was so worried about me when our dad died and wanted so badly to help. We were at her home in Michigan and she had friends and church peeps constantly stopping by, bringing food and comfort. Since I haven't lived there for years, it appeared that I was alone in my grief. But I told her how much support I was receving from this amazing blog community. So, she eventually checked it out and got hooked herself! Monica was on Oprah, too, by the way, the same show that I was on. I am so grateful for this group of cyber friends. It really is amazing how much you can come to care about people you've never met in person. When I read Callie's news, I spontaneously said to my husband "my friend Callie is cancer free!" He said "have I met her?" "No," I said, "but neither have I!" lgrade, try using the words "I am in the process of___" as you are learning to change your thoughts to more positive ones. "I am in the process of healing my body, mind, and spirit." "I am in the process of turning my negative thoughts into positive ones." Praying for you, Beth/Bav. Check in, please. Holisticgal Jen, are you ever coming back? And Lori the librarymom, where'd ya go? Love to all y'all, esp my sistress! Sandra Hey Mary I found that after dx my love life was hard for me...there is a part of us I think that goes inside and hides a bit..I tried "fake it till you make it"...my hubby has been paitent. Try not to shut yourself off from him..maybe talk about it and change the way you function in that area ie: maybe you need a foot massage first or just a cuddle some nights or an open ear to listen to your struggles. He needs you too...maybe listen to how he feels about all this stuff..sometimes I think men deal with hard feelings through sex-trying to feel better. Clint? is that true? Love is magic...but it takes a bit of negotiation sometimes. hope that helps a tiny bit and remember Mary you are a warrior queen and you need your soldiers with you in this fight! deb PS clint I started on MSM crystals.. tumeric is next..I am supplement shy I think:) Deb Yes, there definitely was a suspension in the love life area for me, as there was a lot of healing going on in different levels of myself (Mind, Body, Spirit) For me, my body basically went thru an emotional 'Colonic on Steroids' (if you will) and the bigger picture was that it wasn't a time for pleasuring ones self, but rather a time for healing, and letting out the old (emotions, toxins, etc...) much like when you see those little strip malls getting renovated, and you see the brown paper on all the windows, not being able to see inside. Basically saying, "Closed for Business... be back soon" I was on Predisone for 3 years, and my kidney's and Adrenals were kaput . . . and the thought of kissing a girl on the lips at that time turned me off so much, I thought I was losing my mind. I won't go into too much detail here, but let's just say that it was a few years of Celibacy for I started noticing the curves on a woman There is MUCH change going on inside me. I think a lot of communication has to come from you to your partner . . . focusing on "feelings" for a while, as opposed to physical pleasure. It's a time that the relationship has a chance jump to the next level, taking a break from sex, and looking at what's in the Heart of each of you. Then, when the time comes that you are Well, and ready to be present, and make Love again... LOOK OUT !!! Rest up ! ;-) Clint CLINT! Prednisone is a miracle drug and the devil incarnate at the exact same time, I swear it. And I completely agree with what you said. Communication is key, it really is. And not just talking at one another but talking WITH one another. You both need to be respectful of one anothers wishes, wants, whatever. You need to have an 'open forum' so you two can really hash stuff out but be sure to have some kind of 'safe word' (yes, this is in Kris' amazing book) to which you are just getting to too hurtful of a place. It works, I swear it! Everybody has their own battles, survivors battles aren't the only ones that matter. And I'm not saying any of you walk around thinking it, but it's a very humbling experience to remember that your pain is your own, and the person next to you on the train has something just as trying as you, and the next five people down the way as well. Wow I don't think that made sense! Hi Everybody! I had an appt with my oncologist this week and he is such a cool guy, was asking about my wheatgrass and raw food stuff so I brought my juice bar friend with samples. I don't know where it'll go from here, but I was amazed at his open attitude. My juice bar friend also is making some calls to see if she can get fresh juice offered at the snack bar. That would be SOOOOOO nice for patients and family stuck at the hospital. We also took wheat grass juice samples to the chemo room (my very last treatment!!!) and the nurses were VERY interested. I was extremely happy with the outcome of sharing...made me a little braver to share some more. I back off when I get that "are you crazy?" look, but some of them want to know more, so it's worth the risk. I have x-rays and bone scans next Friday, the 8th, but I'm 99.9% sure they'll be clear. Still, if anybody wants to have a good thought for me that day...thanks. Glenda iffat - I just want to back-up Clint's suggestion of MSM. The disease that I have causes major inflamation, and I started taking MSM back in September. It literally changed my life. Please do try it. There are no side effects or drug interactions. Jennifer Clint thanks, others thanks and keep sharing on this one it is helping me. I guess I just want to hug. I just finished my second dose of pred. I feel dead inside. Now I know why. I never thought it may have been drugs. Also...my body is changing alot because of the tumor. I am going through losing "my female parts", it is affecting me more than I thought. Plus all the other drugs to keep things in kilter. SJ! Where is this pic of Clint all "growed up"?? Gotta see! Luv me some George Clooney. Sorry Clint, not trying to embarass you. Speaking of having friends here, anybody on Myspace? Add me if U want :) I'm also on facebook. Cheers! I'm about to go to a superbowl party! What will I eat?? I'm eating an avocado salad before I go. Yum! Hi Mary, I can't offer you any advice, but you came to the right community. I'm so glad you have people here to help you out with this. Good luck with everything! I'll be rooting for you. Clint: Now I see why everyone has such a crush on you. Your open-heartedness is so endearing. Plus that bow tie, well, who can resist that? This is apropos of nothing really, but Clint's repeated references to a multi-dimensional healing is prompting me to wonder: how many of us are adults who grew up in emotionally or physically abusive families of origin? I, for one, was -- mother an alcoholic, father a covert case officer for the CIA (ever see The Good Shepherd? totally accurate as an emotional story) -- and even though I don't have canSer, I think there's a shared journey here of finding a new place in the world after an emergence from (or during the process of emerging from) fear and there's a shared sense of a rebirth of a new identity that comes from putting a stake in the ground and saying, "No, I'm going to do it this way. Thanks for the suggestion though." So. Anyone have a rocky start in life? And if so, do you think it relates in some way to what you're going through now? Hi Kris, I am a hippy lurker. I saw you on Oprah, bought several copies of your book and gave them to friends who are fighting cancer. Your humor has saved me from the blues so many times. I brought a copy to my infusion center to show the nurses and some of the patients. I am a two time cancer survivor. I had brain surgery in 2001 to remove an oligodendroglioma tumor and just celebrated my 7th year anniversary. I asked my neuro-oncologist at the time if there was a cure. He replied, "Only if I die from something else." However, I am now fighting rectal cancer. I had surgery with a permanent colostomy in Sept. 2007, and have just finished my 5th chemo treatment of Folfox. I want to change the enviornment in my body so that cancer can no longer survive. It's my temple and I'm going to embrace it and decorate it (one of my goals is to get a tatoo when chemo is over in May.) Your book has helped me greatly to start on a kick ass natural healing path. I'm a microbiologist by trade, so all of this ought to come naturally to me; however, with the chemo, I don't want to drink or eat anything. I have to override this thought and work at making healing shakes with whey protein, etc. My biggest problem is my motivation and TASTE right now. I don't own a juicer yet. Any suggestions on one to get that is easy to clean? I have next to no energy right now. What I really want is someone to come into my home and prepare meals for me, lead me in meditation, yoga, take me out for walks, etc. I know that that someone needs to be me. Just not there yet. I feel like a little girl. Another book that I have found extremely helpful is, "How to Prevent and Treat Cancer with Natural Medicine", Dr. Michael Murray, et.al. He is with the "Seattle Cancer Treatment and Wellness Center". Blessings to you for your search and perseverance. You have been an inspiration to me and to so many others. Love enough to conquer fear, Susan Hi, Kris-thanks for the vote! I just am very concerned about this planet, and I know that the people of this forum are just the ones to help in this plight. As I walked out of the public library this morning, there on the sidewalk, a styrofoam container with leftover food just tossed aside. It is sad. I toss it up to ignorance and a self-centered view of life. So my advice to all is to educate all who will listen re: your healthy lifestyle and the importance of a healthy planet & treating others with respect & compassion. I get the same odd looks from coworkers when I spout off, but I just make a joke at the end and say "stay tuned for the next installment of the world according to me." But actually, you'd be surprised, as you are being outwardly dismissed, you will touch a chord in some people. I recently took a collection for a local charity at my work & the response was wonderful. As far as Exxon Mobil--the way to beat them is to support alternative energy sources. Solar and wind power. Biodiesel. Change your lightbulbs, unplug your microwave, and carpool/take public transportation. Reduce, reuse, recycle. Yes--it matters. It might be "inconvenient" but it is worth it! BTW, soon an electric/plug in car should be available--imagine--if powered by solar energy no more gas pump! No more reason to fight over oil! OR drill in Alaska! Martha--Yes, go to the animalrescuesite.com and there are six very worthy charities--breast cancer, healthcare, literacy, rainforest, hunger, and animal rescue--just click once per day and these charities receive money from their sponsors. A very easy way to help make a difference! Thanks for this forum! Peace, love, and veggies, & a green planet for all! Just wanted to say that I am a huge supporter of the book club! It would be wonderful to share the reading of Michael Pollen's book with this community. I'm sure it would spark some great conversations. I am struggling to understand which produce is best to consume and which organic companies to trust. I used to think that Whole Foods only supplied organic produce, but I am wiser now. There is so much to learn and this blog is a huge help. xoxo-Sundari A quick note, then I will take the time and read what I have been missing this weekend! Scan results: liver tumors are stable and there is no spread anywhere else. There are two possible new spots on my liver, but my doc is feeling that they are not tumors and could have always been there. The scans may never have really showed them before. We are going to hang on to that for now. staying on avastin and switching to Cytoxan. then scan in 3 months. Anyway, I was too tired and drained to visit my cancer cohorts, but here I am. Can't wait to hear the new stuff! Take care everyone. Speaking of Ophrah..this has been my vision all day. A followup show where we allget to meet on one her back porches. Wouldn't that be killer. I am seeing the vision now come to life. I, too, am a turmeric & MSM user. Clint, Have you always used the capsule form? I've been buying it in bulk & adding it to food. I'm not certain what the best dose is, but I'd get more if I went to capsule form, wouldn't I? I know Dr. Andrew Weil has touted turmeric for a number of years, as well as ginger, feverfew & black currant oil. There definitely are more choices out there besides Prednisone & NSAIDS, however, I realize sometimes those are necessary for certain conditions but have can have some horrible side effects. Grendle, your doc sounds cool. Good luck with the scan/xray results. Going to watch the Superbowl. It's crazy down here with the FDR golf & Superbowl going on. The brown cloud that hangs over Phoenix is really bad this week. Yuck! Sue Hello Kris and cyber family, please excuse me for jumping right in like long lost family, but right now that is right I need a family in the worst way and you are it. I would like to share this web site, it is this is a place that can tell you the ups and down of organic. Hope it can help in the confusion about organics of who to trust and who not to trust. my best to all, laura2

." Helmuth von Moltke the Elder said it first (Score:3, Insightful) nuff said Brother-in-law to Pignose, Scott said it second (Score:5, Funny) I don't know why they call it Hoth, they should call it "Coldth" Re:Helmuth von Moltke the Elder said it first (Score:4, Interesting) very true. people can armchair quarterback real historical battles, let alone fictional ones in a setting where magic exists. this is why i find the endor holocaust [theforce.net] a little more interesting. Re:Helmuth von Moltke the Elder said it first (Score:5, Funny). Every read that about a hundred times and every time I read it just makes me so happy. The only other thing better than this is this wonderful piece of liberal baiting from the WS [weeklystandard.com] Re: (Score:2) Re:Helmuth von Moltke the Elder said it first (Score:4, Insightful) The arguments are pretty weak. Evil is as evil does. Summary execution, collective punishment and decimation, these are evil acts, and hallmarks of tyrannies. Just because supposed good guys like the United States and Israel engage in them now does not make them any less evil, it only makes the people that engage in them evil. History is written by the victors (Score:2) Re:Helmuth von Moltke the Elder said it first (Score:4, Informative) "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy." nuff said It was a kids movie. Lucas even said so. This is like dissecting a Gumby show. Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) Yup. In the VHS edition of episodes 4-6 George Lucas said the first was yellow, the second white and the third green. I think that explains a lot. (Incidentally, also the reason I ff'd past his introductions the first five years I watched those VHSs.) Re: (Score:2) "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy." nuff said But hindsight is 20/20, and Helmuth von Moltke lived a long time after the battle of Hoth. Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) An (apparently serious) complex battle analyses of a hastily written mythical battle !! All the while not blinking an eye in disbelief at either FTL or the existence of Darth Vader. Re: (Score:2, Funny) or the existence of Darth Vader. I hope he does not find you lack of faith disturbing, for your sake. Lord Vader is not as forgiving as I am. Re: (Score:1) Re: (Score:2) Just because magic exists in a story’s universe doesn’t excuse plot holes and behaviors that make no sense. Internal consistency matters in works of fantasy, not the hard-science plausibility of the setting. Re: (Score:2) One can not expect internal consistency in any situation where they accept the presence of magic. Re: (Score:2) Nonsense. You establish rules for your universe and then the story has to follow them, whether the rules make any scientific sense or not. Superman can't suddenly be invulnerable to kryptonite because the writer is lazy; he has to at least take a serum or be granted that power somehow. Characters’ ability to breathe on a planet with no source of oxygen doesn’t mean their motivations and actions can be untethered from each other. Shield (Score:2) The shield it's job quite well enough - the base wasn't glassed from orbit. Re: (Score:2) Indeed. The orbital defenses were just that - defenses against things in orbit. The guns and troops on the ground, the bunker itself - that's all there to protect against a planetside assault. It accomplished that task - the shields and ion cannon prevented the Imperials from slagging the area, and the ground force stalled the invasion long enough to evacuate. Vader was on the ground, presumably, to capture Luke. Keep in mind that Luke was his son, and he knew about it - as we see in Cloud City. He wanted a c Re: (Score:2) hence keep the reliegous nut with his own ego, and personal agenda away from command Re: (Score:2) I believe his motivation would be more of thinking he was the only one capable of catching a budding jedi. He'd much rather capture him than risk him escaping, or worse yet, be killed by an orbital bombardment. Though one wonders why when he spots the Flacon taking off, why he doesn't radio the fleet above him, to capture the escaping Re: (Score:2, Interesting) Exactly this. The shield prevented orbital bombardment, which is an automatic loss condition given the rebels cannot repel the empire fleet at Hoth. (I'd guess not enough time to recall their entire fleet from other locations) Their strategy at Hoth looked to be simply to buy enough time against a ground invasion so their ships could leave the atmosphere and jump to hyperspace. (Presumably this is easy enough to do while being covered by the ion canon) The Rebels seemed to know all this in advance, had planned Re: (Score:2) > They didn't even seems surprised when the empire eventually did find them. Until the destruction of the first Death Star, there was not a single instance of the rebellion repelling an Imperial Assault. They were always found out eventually. Paratroopers could have made the difference (Score:2) and commando units, had Ozzel come out of light speed undetected. But seriously, paratroopers ahead of the main assault force. A Serious Fan Could Apologize This All Away (Score:5, Insightful) Also, the article asks why Vader didn't bomb out the base. One explanation is that he senses Luke is inside and it's his duty to turn Luke over to the Emperor. Another explanation is that they're dug in too far and they don't have the bunker busting utilities on the ATATs and ATSTs. He flies into an asteroid belt — which somehow the Imperial Fleet had failed to account for when planning its hasty “blockade” — and the Falcon has defied the odds. I would have guessed that since the odds of successfully navigating an asteroid belt are so low (as threepio notes) that the blockade used that as a natural barrier like you would a mountain or sea in an earthly battle. When they flew into it, nobody was expecting them to opt to be blown up in an asteroid belt and they reluctantly gave chase. Yeah, I know, I'm the life at parties and this is all done tongue in cheek but I could probably come up with apologetic responses. I'm actually really glad that Lucas didn't decide to have meaningless strategic dialogue of Tom Clancy proportions so that we could all follow why every little thing was happening. I've read fantasy books by authors with military backgrounds and the battles get tedious -- though very informative. Re: (Score:1) I love detailed discussions of hypothetical scenarios, but Star Wars is really way too soft of SciFi for it to do anything other than maintain suspension of disbelief. Trying to apply reality to it quickly results in an obvious mess. Re: (Score:2). Re:A Serious Fan Could Apologize This All Away (Score:4, Informative) Re: (Score:2) Honest question (from a not so die hard, but still a Star Wars fan) - what's the shield that blocks the path between first Darth Maul and Qui Gon Jinn and then later Obi Wan prior to the last part of the duel which kills both Qui Gon and Maul in Episode I? I guess it's a particle shield, given that it stops the Jedi themselves for a while, but if I recall correctly it also blocks the light saber when someone (can't remember who) briefly strikes at it to test it. I would have assumed a light saber was "energ Re: (Score:3) Re: (Score:3) what's the shield that blocks the path between first Darth Maul and Qui Gon Jinn and then later Obi Wan It's called a "Plot Device". The Star Wars films and other films are full of them. It gets quite amusing watching people try to rationalise stuff when the only real logic is to allow the writer to manipulate the narrative the way he wants. Allegedly J. Michael Straczynski was once asked by an obsessive fan how fast a certain spaceship (in Babylon 5?) could travel and the answer he gave was "at the speed of plot". You may also have noticed that things like transporters and communicators in Star Trek are exac Re: (Score:2) Here's the real explanation. (Score:2, Interesting) Vader didn't want to eliminate this particular Rebel Base, he wanted to deal with the whole alliance, and the Emperor had a plan for that, his fully operational Death Star which was a honeypot meant to suck in the Rebels yet again, but this time with surprise on their side. And most of those authors with military backgrounds just sound like pompous asses in my experience. Armchair generals declaring their own vacuous superiority instead. Re: (Score:2) Doesn't work. Relativistic death bombs run into one small problem - atoms. If it was moving at a more than 10% fraction of the speed of light it would be vapourised long before it hit the rebel base. And that's assuming the Imperials had the ability to accelerate that quickly, one of the bonuses of a "warp" drive is that you can just use that to cross long distances and stick to sub-5000km/h speeds otherwise, also an excellent reason for the dogfights. Re: (Score:2) This always drives me crazy. Velocity is relative. Isn't there a high probability at any given time that you're moving at more than 10% of the speed of light relative to those atoms? Or is it the case that basically everything in the local part of the universe is going at "relatively" the same speed with respect to the fixed stars? Re: (Score:2) There is, in fact, some precedent for that in the first movie's Death Star's exhaust port being "ray shielded." The countermeasure to ray shielding was to use a physical torpedo. Small flaw (Score:2) If the Rebel shields couldn't stop matter entering (and the Imperials didn't even have a crowbar [wikipedia.org]) - then how does it prevent the Rebel ships from leaving? A shield that won't stop a kinetic bombardment or even an invasion, but still blocks your own retreat, is worse than useless. Re: (Score:2) then how does it prevent the Rebel ships from leaving It's an energy dampening field - it would kill the anti-gravity field the ships use for atmospheric navigation, and they have no aerodynamic glide capability so they'd fall like stones. I just made that up to show that there's always going to be an excuse to move the plot along in a fantasy. Re: (Score:2) That explains the wings on those invading AT-ATs... Re: (Score:3) the Empire ground forces landed beyond the energy shield - that's from dialogue, not speculation. Re: (Score:2) TFA indicated the energy shield covered the whole planet, but perhaps that was wrong. Re: (Score:2) If you have virtually unlimited energy, and the capability to fire that energy in a highly concentrated 'blast' then targeting computers take care of the rest. De-orbiting large objects doesn't allow for much maneuvering. You didn't see the cannons designed to defend against physical bombardment because physical bombardment wasn't used and therefore wasn't shown in the film. "Sir, what about physical bombardment?" "Idiot, didn't you read the situation report? The probe identified that the base is equipped wi Re: (Score:2) Seems to me, if they had systems capable of shooting down crowbars falling from space, they could probably shoot down landing ships too, which would be a lot larger and slower. Dropping a kinetic weapon from orbit is a lot faster than landing a ship. It would take only 2.5 minutes to fall 100km at 1G (regardless of mass and assuming an efficient aerodynamic profile of course). That's probably too fast to evacuate, and a tonne travelling at 1.4km/s contains significant energy. From 1000km, it'd still only tak Re: (Score:2) I realize this reply is a bit late, but here goes. Anything firing LOS from a fixed position (echo base) is going to have a range limited by the curvature of the planet. You could land anything you wanted beyond LOS and approach by land (ie, that's what it looks like they did.) With regard to time, I'm not talking about the time it takes to get something from 200km to 0, I'm talking about the time it takes to get something from wherever the hell they are sourcing the mass from. While objects small enough to Re: (Score:2) LoS only applies to energy weapons, but we know the Rebels have proton torpedos. I'm sure they've invented homing technology too. OK, you could fly an invasion down outside LoS range, but you'd have to enter atmosphere from hundreds of kilometers away (given an earth-like radius), and fly no closer than 30km or so. Those AT-ATs were not exactly fast-moving - 10km/hr tops, so it'd take a few hours to advance. Self-guided kinetic weapons are easy too, and crowbars/poles with steerable fins don't destabilise ea Re: (Score:2) Well done! Now do the Enterprise E against an Imperial Star destroyer. Re: (Score:3) Well done! Now do the Enterprise E against an Imperial Star destroyer. No contest - the Old Republic had way more energy than the Federation. They had a fully galactic Republic/Empire, whereas warp engines take decades to travel across a galaxy. The Rebels rendezvoused at a point far outside their own galaxy to stay hidden at the end of ESB. Which makes sense - the Federation is about 250 years more advanced than we are, while the Old Republic was stable for over a thousand generations. Add to that the Emp Re: (Score:2) If you believe in the future that energy is cheap and mass is expensive Past. Star Wars happened a Long, Long Time Ago. That's what Kim Jong-il said (Score:1) US=Empire North Koreans=Rebels South Korea=Echo Base Harry S. Truman=Darth Vader Re: (Score:2) US=Empire North Koreans=Rebels South Korea=Echo Base Harry S. Truman=Darth Vader Except that a popular but absolutely mediocre general like Douglas MacArthur pulled the trick of a lifetime with the Inchon landing, neatly regaining control of the capital city/ transport node, cutting away supplies to the north Korean thrust, and giving the enemy the unpalatable choice between an hasty but long retreat or trying to basically fight a three front war against an enemy which could make good use of a reasonable ability to deny ground movement. they could have tried to leave a screen south, Re: (Score:3) Except that a popular but absolutely mediocre general like Douglas MacArthur pulled the trick of a lifetime with the Inchon landing... That wasn't exactly a mediocre move, was it? Some people point out that he relied on some previous staff work, but staffs exist to plan for every possible contingency, and MacArthur found this solution and implemented it. I must grant, however, that even a mediocre general may display an occasional flash of brilliance. In addition, his success also contained the seed of eventual failure. Once the Inchon Landing succeeded and MacArthur kept on rolling, the Chinese saw a general coming toward their borders at Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) Landings like that had been conducted in WW2 in the Mediterranean during Sicily by Patton when he made his drive from Palermo to Messina. So there's definite preexisting work that had been done regarding using amphibious landings to cut off enemy forces. In Patton's case, the landings were done with smaller detachments that couldn't hold long and required the main body to punch through and join up rather than drop a corps behind enemy lines to relieve a defense. Re: (Score:2) I am familiar with the Sicily campaign, and it was not the high note of Patton's career: a si Re: (Score:2) I'm not sure I would compare bypassing islands in the pacific that were cut off from Japanese reinforcements on the same degree as using a maneuver to cut off or otherwise place pressure on the enemy's force. In the Pacific, if I remember correctly, skipping those islands was a trivial matter since we had naval and air dominance by that time. So there was no point wasting troops on islands that had little to no strategic values, like the Philippines. Maybe they had advance intelligence? (Score:1) traceroute -m 100 216.81.59.173 Re: (Score:2) Really, the author of TFA had nothing better to write about than a science fiction battle happening in a movies from 30 years ago???? Ever read "Falkenberg's Legion" or other Scifi of mixed "sci fi / military" theme? they are actually quite good. and anyway, I am quite sure that the powers that be have wargamed scenario that would seem farfetched even to a preteen on a high from "battlestar galactica". It's cheap, it's outside the box, and it's effective. on a sidenote, I had a classical education at school, and please do remember that the basic ingredients of the classical epic story are the same. I always joke with my son about how his Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) Many years ago, before the world wide web existed, I went to some online system, maybe Compuserve, I don't remember, and I noticed that they had a bunch of forums for Star Trek, Star Wars, etc. Being a big sci-fi fan fan I thought "this sounds pretty cool." Wrong. It took me all of about 5 minutes to discover that having serious discussions about fictional characters and events is boring, pointless and just plain stupid. Why did [some character] do [something] instead of doing [something else]? Why? Bec Re: (Score:2) I didn't need sex for Star Wars to lose its cool.... George Lucas did that with his wretched prequels and constant fiddling with the originals. Re: (Score:2) Dude, get laid... Then you won't care about what one very rich man does to a bunch of kids movies. Wait a second, I forgot this was Slashdot... Nevermind. Re: (Score:2) Too much valuable intel (Score:5, Interesting). Re: (Score:2) Not to mention that scattering the Rebels complicates their operations, logistics, communications, etc... (In a real war, that's a non trivial win.) If the goal is to deny the Rebels the use of the base as the author claims - it doesn't matter if the base is turned into a smoking crater or the Empero Re: (Score:2). Re: (Score:3) Basically this: The ion cannon prevented the ability for the blockade to be in a position to directly target the weak spot in the shield, and just far enough away to give a fast transport enough time to zip through. People who get upset at that have never watched a football game where an offensive lineman opens a hole just long enough for a runner to slip past the defenders. It's not much of a hole, but it's enough if you are quick. It was Ozzel (Score:4, Funny) It's well known that Admiral Ozzel came out of hyperpsace too close to the system and cost them the element of surprise. He's as clumsy as he is stupid.... Re:It was Ozzel (Score:5, Funny) Also, as a good manager, Vader gave Ozzel immediate and clear feedback on his poor performance, promptly demoted him, and simultaneously strongly motivated the replacement to perform better in their new job. Re: (Score:3) It's well known that the late Admiral Ozzel came out of hyperpsace too close to the system and cost them the element of surprise. He's as clumsy as he was stupid.... FTFY Re: (Score:1) Re: (Score:1) News for Nerds, (Score:5, Funny) Only attack from in front... (Score:2) Haven't most of these points been argued to death before, like why everyone attacks the AT-ATs from in front? Why not flank them and attack from behind or from the sides? The trip cables don't care which part of the body they start from, and you're less likely to be shot with cannons that only shoot in the front quadrant... The real point (Score:3). Re: (Score:3) I don't always (Score:1) Re: (Score:1) Ignorant Journalist (Score:5, Informative) Motives (Score:3) I think the author is missing the point about Vader's motives. The article said: The author assumes that Vader actually cared about winning whatever military objectives the Empire had. I don't think he did. In Episode V, Vader wanted only one thing: to get Luke Skywalker. I imagine that after the Death Star was destroyed and there was a big ceremony highlighting to everyone in the Rebel Alliance that Luke was the hero, word got to the Empire (and Vader) that someone named Skywalker was involved. Vader may have claimed that the name had no meaning for him, but it certainly did. So that's why he went down to the base. He didn't trust the stormtroopers to be able to capture Luke; he was going to do it himself. In Episode IV, Vader seemed to be nominally to be a team player (at least he stopped choking that guy in the conference room) and willing to take orders. By the time Episode V rolled around, Vader was off the leash. All he wanted was to get Luke to turn him into his Sith Apprentice and everything else (stormtroopers, admirals, star destroyers, what have you) was just fodder. So although I enjoyed the article, I don't think Vader's tactics weren't because of poor planning or insight. If every Rebel escaped and every Imperial died, it wouldn't matter to him if he captured Luke. It other words: it's not that I'm a bad driver. It's that I needed to get to the airport to make my flight and that now-dented car was a rental. Rebel Strategy Fail (Score:3) Let's not forget... Hiding the base on Hoth was Luke Skywalker's one major leadership decision. The base was discovered and attacked before even becoming fully operational. Although the rebels themselves escaped, there would have been a massive loss of costly and difficult to replace military hardware. Skywalker did at least have the sense not to show his face again except for personal rescue attempts in The Empire Strikes Back and then not to even attempt to participate in the actual rebellion until after the strategic decisions had already been finalized in The Return of the Jedi. No planetary shield (Score:3) The Rebels had a poorly-laid-out ground defense, and a planetary shield that can't keep an invader out while complicating their own escape. But they didn't really have a planetary shield. It was merely a shield over Echo Base. With highly limited resources and a shoestring budget, it was better than nothing. Don't forget, this was not a well funded, professional army, it was a ragtag group of rebels on the run. TL;DR (Score:3) It was damn cold. The good guys got away, as expected.

There are some things that I find it impossible to do if I think about the fact that I’m doing them. Usually they’re things that involve some kind of muscle memory. When I was skiing all the time there were days where I felt transformed, like I was flying and I was completely present and in the moment, in that zone – unless I started to think about what I was physically doing. Getting to the point where skiing was fun meant that I had to endure a few seasons where I was awkward, frequently frustrated and often terrified. I had to get past that learning curve so I could finally enjoy the sensation of that controlled fall through space. Writing feels that way: reason #8,752 for writing often, even when the writing sucks. A couple of things that flitted into my consciousness over the last couple of days scared me a little. I read some blog posts that focused on specific craft ideas. It wasn’t new information. It was the kind stuff I’ve read about many times and yet when I thought about how or if I was using these techniques, I came up blank. I don’t know. Yet? The reason I was scared was because I realized that the snippets of work I might feel bold enough to think have the potential to be good are the snippets that come to me when I’m in the zone. As soon as I become conscious of using words to a certain effect, it becomes obvious and the work feels contrived.When I revise, I become more aware of sharpening certain images or ideas to reinforce what I’m trying to convey. I know that when others critique my work, they sometimes point out the effectiveness (or not) of something I’ve done and I’ll realize they’re right even though I didn’t consciously include that word or that image or that description. Oh yeah, I meant to do that. I have a theory that the reason that Scott’s new abstract work feels so powerful is because a good abstract painting requires that the painter have a mastery of all the skills needed to do a traditional, representational painting, only he has to intuit his way through the abstract. He knows if the color harmonies are correct and if the composition is balanced because he has an innate understanding of those concepts. If we have an underlying appreciation of the visual arts, we know the painting works when we look at it, but we don’t know why. Books on writing craft don’t talk much about the importance of years of experience in writing, but perhaps there’s a reason for that. We want things that give us results now and there’s no shortcut to practice and experience. Perhaps it would help us to set more realistic expectations and motivate us to write more and work harder to get good at what we do if we thought of writing as a long apprenticeship. Actually, that's helpful to me, but I know it's not the path for everyone. There are plenty of people who can write well enough to get a book published, and if that’s the writer’s goal, there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m talking about writing well. I’m talking about my vain wish to have a reader touched by my words or to have a reader thinking about my characters even when he’s not reading the book. I’m talking about a reader losing himself in the work and entering John Gardner’s fictive dream. I keep remembering a scene from the movie, Amadeus and a monologue that the Salieri character delivers: .” My aspirations aren’t quite so grand, but I can confess to a fantasy where someone, somewhere writes a review of something I’ve written and confers some kind of literary approval on it. When I attended Carleen Brice’s book launch party for her debut novel, Orange Mint and Honey she talked about writing the book over a period of six years and she talked about completely rewriting it multiple times. I was truly comforted to learn this. I had a secret fear that good books might come pouring out of other writers at a speed and a rate that I know myself quite incapable of. While blogging has far more advantages than disadvantages in the form of creating community, the public nature of our efforts creates a small disadvantage. When will you finish it? When will it be published? I sense from well meaning friends a certain impatience and maybe even disappointment that I don’t move more quickly. I think about The Foundling Wheel, my Dickens Challenge work in progress and I know that my goal is to finish it. For now, that’s my only goal. I don’t know if I’ll want to rewrite and revise and edit it once I come to the end. I don’t know if that’s its purpose. I know the project is teaching me a lot about writing, but I don’t know if it’s my first book.When I say that my eventual goal is to publish a novel, I mean it. Eventually. I don't know when. I don’t know which novel that might be. I don’t know if it’s the one I’m working on, one of the two I’ve set aside or one I don’t know about yet. I just know I’ll know it when it comes to me. Maybe I’m too idealistic. Maybe this means I’m not a real writer, whatever that is. Sometimes the lack of validation feeds the self-doubt that I and all of us have from time to time – but I also suspect that self-doubt never goes away no matter how much external validation we get about our writing. The blogging community gives me enormous validation about my emotions and about the process. For that reason, I keep coming back. I think that eventually, the only true validation about the worth of our own writing has to come from ourselves. I once read an interview with Frank Conroy about the Iowa Writers’ Workshop. The interviewer asked him if he could tell which of the writers would go on to be published and which would be successful. He said he couldn’t. Talent and potential have very little bearing on whether or not a writer can go on to finish and publish a successful book. As time goes on, I am learning to trust myself. I feel a huge learning curve still ahead of me and I’m at peace with that. It’s my path and no one else’s. It doesn’t frustrate me. I’m in no hurry. I’ll write what I’m meant to write and learn as I’m meant to learn. Does my lack of a sense of urgency reflect a lack of drive or of passion? I don’t think so. In the seventies, Paul Masson’s famous advertisement coined the phrase, “We’ll sell no wine before its time”. I feel that way about my writing. It’s not time. I’ve often heard writers talk about how much bad fiction is published and how often they’ve read books and known they could write better. All true, but that’s not what drives me. I confess, I want to write something good and only time and more and still more writing will tell me if I can. But that’s just me. Maybe I’m crazy. Maybe my expectations are too high. For those of you both published and unpublished, how important is it to you that your work be perceived as good? Is it enough to provide your readers with escape and entertainment? Can you recognize your own shortcomings due to inexperience, or trace a path from inexperience to a gradual or sudden improvement? Why are you writing that book? 31 comments: This post confirmed what I've always known about you, Lisa. You're a true artist who seeks to present whatever you do in the best possible light. And though your canvases are paper and/or a monitor screen, your words are the colors that offer us lingering visual imagery of truthful beauty along with food for thought. In other words, the masterpiece will appear someday...I know that too. Your comment on painting reminded me of a visit some years ago to a garage sale. An older man was in charge and the song "Laura" was playing on a boom box. I mentioned that I always thought of the Spike Jones parody version of the song. He said he had actually seen Spike play, and he was amazed at the fact that Spike and his City Slickers were all topnotch musicians. Even a good parody requires a good understanding of the music he's making fun of. I'm also reminded of Jack Kerouac's "On the Road." Though he famously wrote it on a roll of paper so he didn't have to stop to insert pages in his typewriter, he actually did a lot of revising after that initial burst of energy. And Kerouac had written a more conventional novel, "The Town and the City," before "On the Road," so like Scott, he had mastered the basic form. Your Dickens Challenge novel, like mine, is really a first draft, but it has more than a spark of brilliance. As to why I'm writing that book, I'm not really sure. I wanted to write something that tied in the idealism of my generation to the spiritual world and also celebrates nonviolence. I'd like to sell it, and I fantasize about being interviewed by Terry Gross, Diane Rehm, Melissa Block, and Scott Simon (yeah, I'm an NPR junkie). But I'm also somehow driven to write it, and I'm thankful for Tim Hallinan for giving me the structure to write it and for people like you, Julie, Szelsofa, Charles, Cindy, and Usman for encouraging me. What a great post! First of all, when I read your Dickens Challenge Chapters, I am back in the 80s, in the barracks, or out at the club surrounded by my friends. Note that I didn't say I'm "reminded of when I was there." I said, "I'm there." In addition, I've been worried about this baby since before she was born and pacing the floor waiting for her arrival. I was so relieved when Tracy nabbed her, I shouted with joy! What do I think about writing? I read constantly. The commercial fiction gives me hope that one day I'll be published, too. The literary fiction I read gives me a reason to keep working, keep practicing, keep revising, keep trying to improve. The encouragement I get from readers is exhilarating, intoxicating, and addicting. But it's effect dissipates. Then all I'm left with is what I wrote. In the end, I have to be happy with my writing, because "fans" will eventually close the book and go home. The encouragement I receive from readers who write (yourself, Tim, the other Challengers) I tend to take to heart more than positive comments from people who love me (and feel obligated to say nice things to me.) I think my doubts are similar to your doubts and my hopes are similar to your hopes. Don't give up! I can't wait to see what's coming next (but of course, I'll wait til you're ready to post!) Lisa... you ask such damned good questions. What's considered "good" is subjective, yes? Besides, as a genre writer, I've already got many in the literary world looking down their noses at me without ever having read a word. Understanding all of this, I'm more concerned with writing salable books with which I can sustain a living. I'll let someone else write the Great American Novel. Me? I'd rather write what the teeming millions are reading on airplanes and commuter trains. (Who am I kidding? I'd be happy with teeming hundreds... as long as they're reading!) Then again, my day job's a different world of writing... one where I deal with tight schedules that can't wait for me to find my muse, or labor over whether a color is azure or cobalt or just simply blue. I routinely turn out two or three 20k- to 55k-word books every three or four months. That means I've gotta get to the nut of "the story" in a hurry. If I don't, I'm holding up business. That was a raw post you wrote there. I was amazed and reassured to read about your insecurities as well as your ambition, and quiet confidence, all mixed in together. It amazes me how I can feel driven, yet anxiuos, at the same time. I don't want to be accepted by the masses, that's not my aim. I'm not totally happy with what I'm creating at the moment, but I know I have to continue creating. And I can 'feel' when what I've done is good. It's so hard not to over-think what you're doing when you're creating, and second guess each move. Why do we put ourselves through this? Then again, I can't living without the need to create something. What a fantastic post. I think there is a place for all kinds of writers and writing. It's just a matter of finding "your" path -- which it sounds like you're doing. I have an enormous respect for genre writers who can crank it out (Rob!) and I've tried that myself (my NaNo novel was chick-lit). But at the end of the day I actually don't think I have much of a choice in what kind of writer I am or what I feel drawn to write. So I feel like you do, I'm on the path for as long as it takes. Wonderful questions, Lisa--thoughtful, honest, and real. I can say that I think we see writing through a similar lens. My best writing comes when I'm not thinking about it--when I am in that zone and it flows through me and onto the paper. The characters take over. And I don't want to just write a book. I want to write something readers connect with. I don't kid myself and think it's great literature, but I have been so gratified to hear from readers who tell me, yes, that's it, that's how I'd feel, or, perhaps the best comment, "I feel understood" from a mom who had lost a child. I like to think I'm writing more than what I call "vacation books"--the kind of books you just leave by the pool when you're done--it was an escape but nothing more. Now that I'm starting my 3rd book, I'm going to try something new with my blog--I'm going to post about my process at least once a week--how I'm writing it start to finish. We'll see what I uncover about how I write. For those of you both published and unpublished, how important is it to you that your work be perceived as good? The only validation I seek is from a magazine editor or publisher's acceptance for publication. Good reviews? Fan letters? Pats on the back? Respect from my peers? Nice, but don't need 'em or seek 'em. Is it enough to provide your readers with escape and entertainment? Yup. I have no illusion that I'm creating art or changing the world. My job is to entertain, that's it. Can you recognize your own shortcomings due to inexperience, or trace a path from inexperience to a gradual or sudden improvement? Totally. After 20 years I've developed what I think is the most important trait of all: the ability to self-edit, to look at the work with a cold, cruel eye and eliminate what's not working. Doesn't mean I don't want or need outside editorial comment, just that I recognize that I'm creating a product, and for that product to sell it has to be at a certain level of craft and professionalism. Did I have that ability when I started out, or even five years ago? Nope. Why are you writing that book? Money. Pure and simple. Lisa: Whether your at the start or height of the learning curve as a writer, no matter what, you've got to finish every novel. I think one reason people don't is that they start writing as soon as they get a half-baked idea and then fizzle out because they just haven't thought it through. I liked your "we will sell no wine" quote (I'm old enough to remember Orson Welles in those ads) - whether it's having the story fully formed in your head before you write, or submitting a polished and edited MS to an agent, I think patience is the ritual a writer can practice. Larramie, You are the most supportive blog pal a writer could have. Thank you. Steve, I didn't know that about Jack Kerouac, and your anecdote serves to reinforce my thought that even (and maybe especially) people who are doing things out there on the fringes of experimental fiction had to learn the basics of craft/the rules, before going on to break the rules. Aristotle was on to something. You're on to something with Things Done and Left Undone and I am confident you'll succeed with it. You're doing something I've personally never seen before and it's wonderful. I love the idea of the NPR interviews and like you, I will be eternally grateful to Tim and our DC readers and writers. I think the DC has broken something loose for me too. Thank you for always reading and for your thoughtful and very kind comments. Cindy, You have a great approach and a great attitude and your writing is incredibly clean and polished, even in first draft form. I feel exactly the same way that you do about outside encouragement. I take it all in stride, but in the end, it's me that I have to please. Thanks for always reading and commenting. It helps a lot and don't worry. I'm never giving up. :) Rob, I don't think genre gets far more respect than many genre writers perceive. There are masters writing in all areas and my theory is that since academics and literary scholars tend to make up the critical community, we only see serious reviews of the work they gravitate toward. It would not surprise me to see literary criticism branch out at some point so that individual genres get more critical attention and the good, the bad and the ugly in each are more clearly distinguished. Writing for income is a perfectly honorable purpose. In fact, I think that it's important that all writers can be honest with themselves about goals since the reason we write must dictate how we approach our craft. It's all about business for the publishers and none of us can ever forget that. Yellow, I feel pretty comfortable in revealing myself here. The pursuit of any kind of art is an incredibly difficult thing and I think it's important to constantly revisit and analyze our motivations and our goals, as well as our insecurities (so that we can figure out how to lessen them) and finally, our expectations. The path to all pursuits in life is much more difficult and heartbreaking is we don't have realistic expectations. My insecurities lessen every day as I accept my limitations and work toward understanding and overcoming them and as I learn to trust my own ability to judge my work. I think you answered your own question. "Why do we put ourselves through this?", because we can't not. Keep painting. Scott and I enjoy checking in on you and watching you grow. Yogamum, I believe you're right. I think the thing that has alleviated much of my anxiety is recognizing that each of us has her own path and with the help of, or in spite of outside input, we simply need to stay on that path. I also admire any writer who can consistently write salable work and in particular, those who are able to make a living doing it. I'm pretty sure that's not in the cards for me, but I'm content with where I'm going. Judy, Yes, I do think we have very similar goals. It's that desire to connect through words that's most important to me. I'm excited about your plans to post about process. You and Carleen both seem to have taken a similar length of time to write your first novels and have subsequently followed up with second novels in a much more compressed time line. Of course, I think you were both able to also segue to writing full time after novel number one, which certainly had to help, but I think your posts on the process of writing novel number three will been fascinating. Josephine, I have no doubt that you are on the cusp of becoming a very successful writer. You know exactly what you want and you've worked to figure out exactly what your path must be to get there. Great insight on the reasons people leave so many novels unfinished and I think you're exactly right. I put my first two attempts aside because I really didn't have a clear idea of where I was going with them. I started with a premise for the one I'm working on now, so even though it's unclear to me right now exactly how it will end, I had much more concrete ideas about where I was going with it than I did with the others and I think it's because those other experiences taught me a lot about what the bones of the story had to have. I'm also glad to have summoned the ghost of Orson Welles for you! As I observe the world and read the agent blogs, I can't help but believe that far too many writers are sending out half-baked work. This journey will be extremely unpleasant and unsatisfying for those without the patience to revise, edit and polish and without the proper expectations about the industry. For Rob -- I meant to say that I think I think genre gets MORE respect than people perceive. And I meant to also tell you that all these months later, your MC and the female character (I forget her name) have very much stayed with me. I've always loved that she smells like nail polish and cookie dough and has a penchant for retro in her fashion sense and decorating sense, and there were expressions you used about the bad guys and the MC's mom not knowing her like he did that have really stuck. I read a LOT and that so much of what I read in your manuscript stayed with me speaks volumes. I don't believe the self doubt ever leaves you. I'm still attacked by it at times, sometimes even to the point of near paralysis. But at times when I've stopped for a while writing I can't stay away. It is most important that people read my stuff and are entertained. I believe if they are entertained they may began to be sympathetic to my messages about life, but the most important point it to touch someone. Your post: powerful and moving. Your doubts and fears: normal and human. My goals: tell as many stories to as many people as possible before I die. Critics, etc: I guess I have my hands full trying to tell the story. I'm happy to let those who hear it decide how they feel. Thanks again for that post - wonderful! Charles, I'm coming to believe that if we weren't plagued by doubt about writing, something else would take its place. I think it must just be part of who we are -- people driven toward creative pursuits. Making that connection -- I think no matter what we believe our purpose is, that's at the core of it somewhere. Steve M, What a fabulous goal. I'd never considered the aspect of telling many stories, but your comment has made me think about how many stories we all have within us. Perhaps it's a good thing for me to keep in mind -- that despite the enormity (at least in my mind) of the novel -- that it's only one story. There are so many more. Lisa, let me add to the chorus. Great Post. It has me thinking and about so many things, the zone, isecurities, wishes and so much more. I'll have to end up reading it again. For me writing is art. I haven't mastered it, but hope to one day. I want to be published, at the same time I want to be remembered for writing something good. Amadeus is absolutely my favorite movie. The part where Salieri says the words you wrote; that was a great part of the movie. Fascinating post. Love the analogy with the skiing, and also with art. Guess its a truism that a writer is a person who writes. A writer is also primarily a person who thinks - and thinks through what they are saying (in a subconscious zone sense if need be.)So there's a Primary need for 'awareness' in good writing....? "Talent and potential have very little bearing on whether or not a writer can go on to finish and publish a successful book." Man, this could be tweaked and used for every goal one has in life. I have often told Boy that while talent plays a part, determination plays the larger role in getting what you want. you have articulated all that has been running through my brain lately. TO do the good work. To be happy with the end result regardless of the time. to answer the question of why, for me it is simple: i am compelled to get the stories down. they demand a page and their voice. but, to get it right is the tortuous act... it's like running. just start and even though towards the end you think you have no more to give, somehow you make it home. or maybe it's not anything like running... I really enjoyed this post and think you have a really sensible attitude toward writing. I guess it's nice to get a big paycheck, but I have always been content to take my time and get published by small presses. At least someone is reading the novels and poems. I also like what you said about books on writing. I am not a big believer in such books to begin with since, as you point out, the only real way to learn how to write, imho, is to read a lot and write a lot. (It's what Stephen King said in ON WRITING.) I take all the other advice with a grain of salt. The one exception is Ray Bradbury's Zen in the Art of Writing. It's a marvelous book, filled with a more practical "sit down and don't overthink what you're doing to the point where it becomes agony." His premise is that when you relax, the words begin to flow. You have a lovely site. I'd like to link your site to my Chapter and Verse blog if that's okay. Another one for the TBR pile from Billy. Gotta love Mr. Bradbury. SO MUCH to read and think and write about on this topic, Lisa. All I know: I read your first ten chapters Friday morning while en route to Boston and almost called you to cheer you on! Can't wait to read more. I'll be happy to offer more details along the way but for now just keep plugging for the love of it; I guarantee your readers will love it too. K. Usman, I think we're on the same page (pun intended). I love Amadeus too! I think there are a million lines in that movie that are brilliant and sometimes I quote them and people have no idea what I'm talking about so they think I'm nuts. I suppose I am. :) Julie, More excellent food for thought. Thank you. Patti, I think just about anything is achievable with enough hard work and persistence. And actually I think your running analogy works very well, especially when thinking about novel writing, which many have compared to a marathon that requires a lot of endurance. Bill, I am so glad you stopped in! I have been enjoying your insights at Charles G's site and keep meaning to check your blog -- which I now have and it is wonderful. I would be honored if you linked to me and I'd like to add Chapter and Verse to my sidebar too. Thank you for the Ray Bradbury recommendation. It sounds like just what I need to read at this stage. K, I'm so happy you read past chapter 1! Thank you so much for the encouragement. I was thinking after hearing Carleen's talk that I'll bet the final story has only passing resemblance to what I have so far, but that's probably a very good thing. Maybe when I get back in town later this week we can shoot for having "not coffee" :) Thank you from the bottom of my heart. What an excellent post! So very thoughtful and well done! I can tell you I have been working on my two different books from the year 2000. While I consider myself a professional writer in the sense that my professional life was all about writing for business and legal reasons, I still feel a rookie when it comes to creative writing. I've been working on it for so many years now, I think I can actually see improvement. My first attempts were pitiful. Now, I can see how much better I've become, and yet I am still not there yet. Ello, I know what you mean about professional writing and fiction writing. Of course I'm in sales so some might say that my professional writing might occasionally border on fiction :) But it doesn't! I feel very much like a rookie, but if I go back and look at things I've written even three months ago, I feel like I'm getting better. Lately I have it in my head that if I learned a bit about poetry, perhaps my prose might become a bit more...lyrical? I'd like that. A seed has been planted. At the beginning of this century, I started writing a small, funny novel. Twelve thousand words in, life happened to me, and hasn't stopped since. I've never written another word of it, but the story resides - fully-formed - in my frontal lobes. The characters follow me like mute shadows. I think about them all the time, as if they were real people. The question for me is not 'why are you writing that book?', it's 'why did you stop?'. Orchid Hunter, Why did you stop? Going on eight years -- that's a long time to be followed by these characters. I truly envy you that the story is all there, just waiting to be written. What you've said reminds me of something I read in a book about Woody Allen. He writes very quickly, but before he begins the physical writing he thinks and he takes walks and he thinks some more. By the time he actually begins to write, he's worked the whole thing out. It's all there -- why not start again? Your posts are brilliant and I imagine that any story you've been carrying around with you for that long is one I and many others would love to read. I hope you pick it up again. Maybe this is a sign to YOU. I loved your post, Lisa, and there's great discussion here in the comments. I'll try and chime in with my two cents. I thought of this question - why am I writing this book, or rather, why am I writing? - the other night when I sat in bed with a hard copy of my manuscript, taking notes and writing down character changes, etc. I asked myself, "Why am I doing this? What if no one ever reads this? What if it's never published? Do I care?" And there's a complicated answer. Yes, I care if it doesn't get published because that's my ultimate goal. But if nothing I write ever gets published, well, I don't care - because I'll still write. I like how you've slowed down in your process - I've done that, too. I HAD to do it - yet I didn't realize it at the time. I was so focused on getting published that I had a hopeless sense of urgency that completely exhausted me. So I stepped back and realized that I needed to refocus on the writing itself. And boy, was it ever the right decision to let go of that monkey on my back, the "you need to get published now, NOW, NOW!" I can't tell you how much better I feel - and I'm definitely enjoying the writing process now. LOVING it, in fact! So much to think about here, Lisa! I think your theory is spot on: You can't know how to skillfully bend or break a rule until you understand what happens when you obey it. You can't write a good metafiction until you understand how to write good fiction to begin with. I think writers often write the kinds of stories they like to read, and the kinds of stories they like to read often determines what the writing and publishing process will be like for them. While I love to read many different genres (and hope to be able to genre-hop once I understand how to tell a good story to begin with), I am drawn primarily to literary fiction, both as reader and writer. I love stories that come packed with ideas and philosophies, so it seems like the logical thing to want to create in this vein. Sometimes I think it's a crazy thing to aspire to, and I feel like a bit of a snob in a way. I think I may have blogged about this, but one of the things I've always found strange and upsetting is that practically the first question out of someone's mouth when they find out that I write is, "What have you published?" It sort of lets the air out of the conversation. It's difficult for them to understand that publication may be the yardstick of success for some writers, but it's not the yardstick for everyone. Publication is my goal, but I honestly don't see it happening for a long time (except, perhaps, for short stories or essays). Not too long ago, a friend of mine told me that reading Rilke's Letters to a Young Poet made him realize that he'll probably never be a published literary artist, and I wanted to argue him into having more faith in himself. He says that he doesn't have it in him to devote himself solely to learning the craft of fiction writing; his interests are wide and varied, and he makes his living through business. And he doesn't, I don't think, want to publish for the sake of being published. I think I understand him better for reading your post tonight. I earn my living through other work, so I don't need to publish for money; that frees me up, I think, to publish when, where, and how I want to. If I ever put my name to a manuscript and sell it, I want it to be the best it can possibly be at that point in time. This isn't because I'm craving critical or commercial acclaim, although I doubt there's a writer alive who would honestly dismiss these things (or the advantages they provide). A long time ago, I made a vow to myself that I would try to limit competition to myself alone. That's helped me a LOT as I've read manuscripts by other apprentice writers who I know are more skilled than I am, especially when those writers are also friends. Rejection letters and negative reviews will still sting, I know, but I want to make sure that, when everything's said and done, I can sit back and say that I've improved, I've outwritten myself. I consider myself an apprentice writer, and I don't see myself dropping that appellation in the next decade or so. I have loads to learn. Sometimes it seems an insurmountable task, but as you say, that's all the more reason to break it down into daily chunks and keep on plugging away, every chance you get. None of us know for sure how far we'll get, because none of us can be certain that we won't get hit by a bus tomorrow (sorry to be completely morbid, but you know what I'm saying). And so the only thing to do is write, and then keep writing. Melissa, It is a complicated answer for me too. I do want to be published but only when I've written what I think is the best book that I possibly can and I know I'm not there yet. And you're right, once I had more clarity on what I truly wanted to accomplish, my anxiety level went down and the writing became much more fun -- er, maybe fun isn't exactly the right word, but it feels more natural and comfortable. Maybe that means I'm starting to find my voice. Jennifer, Okay -- you need to get out of my head immediately :) I'm drawn primarily to literary fiction too and I find myself admitting it as if it's a bit shameful for some reason. Maybe I feel like people perceive my taste as snobby -- but I guess I can't worry about that. I love those books too and I've just finished one by J.M. Coetzee and one by Martin Amis and the skill they have makes me both incredibly awed that human beings are capable of such things and rather than make me frustrated, it steels my resolve. I know I'll never write like they do, but I also know there is a groove for me and eventually I'll discover it. I've called what I'm doing alternately my DIY MFA program and my apprenticeship, but I'm actually pretty happy with where I am right now and I'm content with my journey. In my business life, (sales) I found a book a year or two that encapsulated some of the frustration of working in a start-up environment. It's called HOPE IS NOT A STRATEGY. I was so taken by its message (mostly because it confirmed all of my ideas -- does that make me a narcissist? If not, something arrogant I'm sure), but it applies to every goal in life. Hope, for me is something to cling to in desperate times. It can't be an integral component for reaching a goal. Plugging away is part of the plan. Reading and reading and writing and learning from others are all part of that. I find incredible peace with knowing I'm doing the best I can. So glad to hear from you on this! Excellent post. The first draft is when I lose myself in the story. The second and subsequent drafts are about applying the craft. I believe writing is like a muscle. If you don't use it regularly, you lose strength. Unfortunately, in this day and age being published and being a good writer are not always the same thing. We strive to do the best we can with each book and then apply the business knowledge we accumulate along the way. More and more, authors are now expected to churn out 2, 3 books a year instead of one, to fill the publisher's coffers. AND handle all the other promotional tasks publishers can no longer be bothered to handle, dumping it all on the author's shoulders. Regarding painting -- I use gazing at paintings as fuel for my writing. It refreshes me when I'm tired. Also, the book LIFE, PAINT, AND PASSION was more relevant to my writing than most books on the craft of writing. Regarding those who doubt you, are disappointed that you don't publish "fast" enough for them -- I've instituted a zero tolerance policy. I ask, "How much have you published?" Answer: "Nothing". Me: "How much do you know about how the publishing business works?" Answer: "Nothing". ME: "Then shut up until you do." They can throw crap at you, but you can always step back and let it land on the ground instead of on you. Devon, Thank you so much for visiting and commenting. You've offered some very wise advice and insight that will stay with me. I'll have to check out LIFE, PAINT, AND PASSION (ZEN IN THE ART OF WRITING -- Billy's recommendation -- just arrived today). You've got a great blog -- hope you don't mind if I add you to my sidebar. And I'll definitely let the crap land on the ground :) I read Zen in the Art of Writing about six years ago, and I remember it being one of the most unique books on the subject I'd read thus far. (Time for a re-read, because I can't remember much except one exercise that I use quite a lot.) "DIY MFA"--I like that! It's definitely a process, isn't it? And one that I really think is best when it's tailored for the individual writer. I'm fairly certain that an MFA program would have made me want to give up on writing had I enrolled in one when I first started this apprenticeship thing. I will have to check out Hope Is Not a Strategy. Thanks! I never set out to write award-winning fiction; my original goal was to be a professional novelist, i.e. writing full-time for a living wage. That goal was altered, a little, by my time in grad school--and by reading John Gardner especially. The more fiction I wrote, the more I recognized what I was capable of. I couldn't write purely commercial fiction because it didn't satisfy me personally. The challenge, then, was to find my niche. I want readers to rate my work highly--so I aspire to write at the top of the genre of my reading roots (women's fiction). I think I could write literary fiction, but not as well as the best of 'em, and certainly not quickly enough to make a living from it (IF I could publish it at all). So yeah, for you I say "just keep writing." I have no doubt you will uncover all the answers you're looking for in the process. Simple, right? :)

I can only describe my feeling by the metaphor, that,if a man could write a book on Ethics which really was a book on Ethics, this book would, with an explosion, destroy all the other books in the world. -Wittgenstein, “A Lecture on Ethics” Wittgenstein’s work and thought on ethics remains a largely enigmatic area of his overall body of work. Yet throughout his career, Wittgenstein held ethics to be a crucial part of his philosophy. The Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus is, according to him, fundamentally a book about ethics1 ; however, Wittgenstein’s ethics are of quite a different sort than we might find being developed by Kantian deontologists or utilitarians. Quite contrary to any conventional ethics, Wittgenstein’s is one of restraint, of withholding, rather than theorizing or promulgating. In the Tractatus, he writes, “it is clear that ethics cannot be put into words. Ethics is transcendental” {TLP 6.421}. But what does he mean by this kind of talk? The Vienna Circle interpreted Wittgenstein as taking up a positivist stance– ethical propositions, as nonsense {TLP 3-4}, are to be excluded. For Wittgenstein, anything that cannot be represented by propositions in language is nonsense. To quote A.J. Ayer on the Tractatus, “metaphysical pronouncements fail to represent anything. They are nonsensical. At their best they are attempts to say what cannot be said but only shown. This applies to ethics and aesthetics” {PTC 112}. I would like to argue that Wittgenstein’s assertions about ethics embody a critical attitude toward philosophical language. This attitude is one that sees the preservation of ethics as lying in an anti-philosophical (or perhaps extra-philosophical) approach. Of course, this statement requires some qualification. I do not mean to say that Wittgenstein is not doing philosophy; it is obvious that the contrary is true. I would like to suggest, however, that his philosophy functions by showing limitations: not only the limitations of language, but also the limitations of philosophical activity itself. Furthermore, I would like to suggest that it is the most important things that fall outside of representation. This is why it is important to invoke the distinction between saying and showing. By saying, we can express certain ideas; by showing, we can express others2. Not everything that can be shown can be said. For instance, we can show that a mathematical equation works and we can also say that it works, but we cannot say anything about the nature of numbers themselves. We can show the idea of infinity, but we cannot express it properly in language. Similarly, we can “get at” or show ethical ideas, but no set of propositions can capture ethics. Poetry and literature may perhaps be able to better give us a sense of ethical thought than philosophy. This is related to Wittgenstein’s “religious” point of view. In his work, Wittgenstein seeks to move away from explanation and justification, and move toward something more concrete and immediate. As Norman Malcolm puts it, A possible clue my lie in the reiterated theme of his writings, that explanations, reasons, justifications, come to an end. This theme itself needs to be clarified. Does it mean that there are no justifications for anything? Or does it mean that there are – but only up to a certain point? If so, what is that point? Can it be described? {WR 2} These questions, as I see them, are central to proposing the kind of ethics that we can draw out of Wittgenstein’s work. They point first and foremost to a rejection of a mistaken commitment to a certain kind of metaphysics. I would call this metaphysics the metaphysics of science, but that is too crude a moniker to attach, and I will clarify it through the paper. Fundamentally, Wittgenstein’s view tries to show the ways in which philosophical language can and cannot be used appropriately. The use of “nonsense” and “silence” do not necessarily carry negative connotations, and Wittgenstein’s picture of the ladder up and out of philosophy {TLP 6.54} is immensely valuable. In this paper, I will expand upon these ideas3 and try to bring out some ideas about ethical living outside of philosophical theory. Wittgenstein’s critique of philosophy Wittgenstein’s main objection toward philosophy is its pretension of being able to “catch” everything. Along with the advent of the scientific method, philosophy has been used to analyze the world and contain it within a framework that supposedly tells us the truth about things. In a sense, philosophy and science have purported to reflect the contents of the world in a meaningful way. Because of this, a certain vocabulary has taken a primary place in our talk about the world and about ourselves; “thus,” Wittgenstein writes, ” {Ibid. 6.372}. By now, this is not an uncommon comment to make. In Mind and World, John McDowell writes, “if we conceive the natural as the realm of law, demarcating it by the way its proper mode of intelligibility contrasts with the intelligibility of the space of reasons, we put at risk the very idea that spontaneity might characterize the works of our sensibility as such” {MW 71}. Of course, this refers to problems in the philosophy of mind, but it is an example of how one way of thinking and speaking has taken hold in philosophical activity in general. The notion of explaining everything has become violent; at the very least, the traditional philosophical commitment to this view of the world has caused serious problems for ideas about the self as well as religion and the supernatural. The causal efficacy of the mind, for instance, has been marginalized and excluded because it cannot properly figure into scientific or physicalist accounts of causation4 . Why are we in this position, though? Why do we feel the need to stick with it? As Wittgenstein says, again in the Tractatus, “the whole modern conception of the world is founded on the illusion that the so-called laws of nature are the explanations of natural phenomena” {Ibid. 6.371}. It is important to notice that he uses the word “explanation” here. “Explanation” implies that a truthful story is being told about something; however, can everything actually be explained? Moreover, is explanation meant to have such an all-encompassing function in the first place? Is it necessary to use this type of talk to represent the world? Wittgenstein thinks that it is not. By putting thought in its proper place, Wittgenstein’s transcendental critique wants both to preserve the legitimate role of thinking in natural science and to prevent its encroachment into territory reserved to other human interests, much as Kant wanted his critique to limit knowledge in order to make room for faith. For Kant and Wittgenstein some things must be passed over with that pregnant silence which indicates that representation is out of its depth. {EWP 12} Here James Edwards makes an appropriate connection between Kant and Wittgenstein: in the Critiques, Kant tried to highlight the limitations of representation and thus show that there are things about which we can make no final judgment or analysis5 . Wittgenstein tries to do the same in his work. When he says something like “the law of causality is not a law but the form of a law” {TLP 6.32}, he means that the way in which we describe it takes on a law-like character. Description is often mistaken for explanation: what may suffice as a good practical framework for moving around in the world is often misinterpreted as a foundational picture of it. Another way of putting it is that explanation is a form of justification; description, on the other hand, does not necessarily require justification. If we hold our propositions only to a standard of pragmatic use, we may not run into the kind of philosophical confusion that troubles Wittgenstein. Logic, for instance, can play the role of demarcating the world’s structural/formal traits: At 4.4511 Wittgenstein says that a tautology, while it says nothing, is not nonsensical, because it is a “part of the symbolism”, like the ‘0’ (zero) in mathematics. A tautology is part of the symbolism because by considering it one learns something of how to operate with its constituent symbols. And, since these symbols represent propositions, one at the same time learns something of how to operate in the world. That’s what is meant at 6.12 when he says that logic mirrors the formal properties of the world, as well as those of language. A tautology does not depict the world of contingent states of affairs; yet it conveys knowledge of the formal structure of language and the world. {EWP 55} Logical propositions are useful for purposes such as predicting consequences of actions (making causal claims, in other words), understanding that certain events occur regularly, and so on; logical propositions cannot, however, get any grasp on what makes those things happen, or even (with total certainty, at any rate) how they happen. They can show, not say – but then again, the showing occurs in the saying, to some degree6 – ideas about the world. Edwards argues that ethical propositions are of the same order. “The remarks of ethics, which literally cannot be said … are attempts to convey a sort of practical knowledge; it is a knowledge of how to live so as to give a sense to the world” {Ibid. 57}. Both logic and ethics can provide us with useful knowledge, but that knowledge does not necessarily point to any metaphysical truths. Moreover, Wittgenstein says, we do not need metaphysical truths for propositions to be useful; in fact, it is the desire to obtain metaphysical truths that causes us to speak nonsense. Metaphysics is a manner of explanation and justification: it constructs foundations that anchor our view of the world. The problem is that we cannot be certain of those foundations, however much we wish it. When we incorporate metaphysical mistakes into our talk about the world, we begin to make nonsensical propositions. By saying nonsensical things, we are essentially trying to articulate what cannot be articulated; in other words, we are trying to get at something but only coming up with senseless statements. as the beautiful.) And it is not surprising that the deepest problems are in fact not problems at all. {TLP 4.003} Nonsense consists in the production of meaningless ideas through the misuse of language. If we take this to be true, then philosophy really is plagued with nonsense, since throughout history, philosophers have been asking questions about God, the nature of time, the soul, and myriad other problems. Is “nonsense” necessarily a pejorative term, though? I would suggest that it is not. Ayer says that I wholeheartedly endorsed Wittgenstein’s conclusion that metaphysical utterances were nonsensical but did not count the utterances of the Tractatus itself among them. I did not see, and still do not see, how a sentence could at one and the same time express a pseudo-proposition and an unassailable truth. I agreed rather with Ramsey that ‘if the chief proposition of philosophy is that philosophy is nonsense … we must then take it seriously that it is nonsense, and not pretend, as Wittgenstein does, that it is important nonsense’. {PTC 112-3} If we consider this problem in relation to §435 of the Investigations, we may see how Wittgenstein believed the propositions of the Tractatus to be at once nonsensical and truthful. In articulating what ultimately turns out to be nonsensical because it ends up running into its own limits, we are able to convey, to show that limitation as well as the function of language, properly conceived. Thus the truth of the Tractatus’ propositions lies not in the expressed content of the propositions themselves, but rather the truth that they reveal. Furthermore, Wittgenstein says in the introduction to the Tractatus that “the truth of the thoughts that are here communicated seems to me unassailable and definitive” {TLP p. 4}; this is a subtlety that may also answer Ayer’s question. The thoughts communicated in the Tractatus are not solely to be found in the propositions on the page. “My work consists of two parts: the one presented here plus all I have not written. And it is precisely the second part that is the important one” {PT 16}. On this view, we can see that there is no conflict between the assertion that the Tractatus is at once full of nonsense and truth. The point of this is that nonsense does not have to be seen as pernicious or even always useless. Edwards notes that since, according to the doctrines of the Tractatus, ethics, logic, and Tractarian philosophy all lie outside the boundaries of sense, ‘nonsense’ is not always a derogatory characterization in Wittgenstein’s early vocabulary. Sometimes there is something that cannot be conveyed except by uttering something that is, strictly speaking, nonsense. This is the case for the propositions of logic: they show the formal structure of language and world; but they are themselves literally senseless. They do not represent the existence of contingent states of affairs. It is also the case for Wittgenstein’s philosophy itself. Witness the Tractatus: it says nothing, but intends to show everything important. {EWP 106} So what distinguishes useful nonsense from dangerous or misused nonsense? I would suggest that the difference lies in justification. When nonsensical propositions are set up as–or made part of–metaphysical foundations7 , they become dangerous: they lead us into confusion and misunderstanding. Plato’s myth of the immortality of the soul may become dangerous if it is transformed into philosophical doctrine; however, when it is employed merely to convey some idea without trying to ground it in “truth” or justify it, it can be useful in what it points to or shows. As Wittgenstein says in Culture and Value, “don’t for heaven’s sake, be afraid of talking nonsense! But you must pay attention to your nonsense” {CV 56e}. This distinction is of the utmost importance. It is the difference between the Tractatus and a work such as Jaegwon Kim’s Mind In A Physical World, which refuses to see the inherent meaninglessness of trying to talk about the mind and the body as somehow separate or bound in a hierarchical relationship8 . Philosophical inquiry can congeal and harden into doctrine from which it is difficult to escape: we become the fly in a bottle {PI §309} of our own construction. We become forgetful, we are convinced that this is the way things are. In Wittgenstein’s words: the frame through which we look at it. {PI §114} Here we see another theme emerging: certainty. Mistaking propositions for a priori or unconditional truths both spurs on and satisfies the desire for absolute certainty – epistemological or metaphysical safety, as it were. Yet is certainty possible? Or is it, on the other hand, a false hope? “’But this is how it is––––‘ I say to myself over and over again. I feel as though, if only I could fix my gaze absolutely sharply on this face, get it in focus, I must grasp the essence of the matter” {Ibid. §113}. Our fixation on the frame, as Wittgenstein puts it, gives us the illusion that we have certain knowledge of the thing being framed; however, as the seemingly endless stream of philosophical problems implies, the illusion is an illusion and not much –if anything– else. The religious point of view So far we have been examining Wittgenstein’s critique of philosophy. The most prominent problem appears to be the unwarranted and untenable development of metaphysical roots– a development that may have come about accidentally, or may simply be a normal, unavoidable byproduct of the way in which we use language. Of course, because it is unavoidable does not mean it is not troublesome9 . It is also, in a sense, dishonest. Despite the warnings of Hume and Kant, we still fall into the trap of assuming that everything can be explained. We assume that propositions about the world accurately and fully represent it, even though we would see after some examination that this is not always the case. Thus, we are certain of propositions’ validity– but what do we know? How can we say that we have a firm purchase on reality, if there is no way to get outside and make sure? Yet certainty is not in itself a bad thing; just as the propositions of logic provide us with practical knowledge, certainty is also practical. When we are certain, we have a coherent view of our own world. “I act with complete certainty. But this certainty is my own” {OC §174}. There is a catch: the ground (and this is a troublesome word, to be sure!) upon which we stand is always ours; it does not come from external and “objective” point of view. The ground, then, is not a ground insofar as it is not rooting us in anything permanent or absolute. Rather, it is the way our world is constituted, the way in which it comes together for us. It is not above or below us. It is there, in the most immediate way. For instance: goes unnoticed. {Ibid. §167} Our world-picture is bound up in our everyday lives; it has been given to us by virtue of the fact that we are born into a community of language-users. The important thing about all of this is that it brings out the way in which explanation does come to an end at some point. For all of us, there is a limit to what we can sensibly doubt; outside of that limit, it does not make sense to doubt. We do not doubt that the sun will rise tomorrow, and the day after that, and so on. None of us can say, though, that we know that it will rise {TLP 6.36311}; as Wittgenstein says, “There is no compulsion in making one thing happen because another has happened. The only necessity that exists is logical necessity” {Ibid. 6.37}. We all essentially take on a religious point of view at some point or another. When we arrive at the point at which doubt no longer makes sense if we are to make sense of the world, we have reached the end of justification and the end of explanation. Consider logical propositions: we have no way of knowing if they do not merely approximate some kind of correlation to reality by way of a fortuitous accident, or if there is some meaningful way in which they can help us gain practical knowledge about the formal structure of the world. Despite this, we do not focus on doubting logic’s efficacy; we just accept it. In this way, we all take up a religious point of view at some point. To think of it another way, “we are satisfied that the earth is round” {OC §299}. In this way, the world-picture given to us by science is just as religious as the “properly” religious one. We cannot in the end escape from it. “The difficulty is to realize the groundlessness of our beliefs” {Ibid. §166}. If the difficulty is to realize the groundlessness of our beliefs, then our task should be to make that realization. This consists in paying attention to our nonsense, and not making the mistake of constantly searching for justification and explanation. We have to forsake the safety of false certainty and adopt a more critical stance in relation to our propositions about the world. Wittgenstein holds that we will then recognize the non-existence of many philosophical problems and be able to work our way out of them instead of bouncing back and forth inside of them without solving anything. He writes, “my propositions serve as elucidations in the following way: anyone who understands me eventually recognizes them as nonsensical, when he has used them–as steps–to climb up beyond them” {TLP 6.54}. Of course, the Tractarian notion that we can just escape is not really present in the later Wittgenstein; instead, we have the notion of philosophical therapy. It is not our aim to refine or complete the system of rules for the use of our words in unheard-of ways.. There is not a philosophical method, though there are indeed different methods, like different therapies. {PI §133} The idea is that we start to unravel and extricate ourselves from philosophical confusion and anxiety. In essence, we are taking philosophy apart instead of trying to iron out its wrinkles; we are dismantling instead of tinkering10 . When we start backing out of (or perhaps fighting through) the false problems and booby traps of philosophy, where do we end up? Since we are refusing the need for justification, we move into a religious point of view. No longer do we cleave to endless explanation and the desire for absolute knowledge; instead, we adopt a more honest way of relating to the propositions that we use and the language-games that we play. “An honest religious thinker is like a tightrope walker. He almost looks as though he were walking on nothing but air. His support is the slenderest imaginable. And yet it is really possible to walk on it” {CV 73e}. Instead of endless nonsensical babble, we start to choose silence. This silence is not truly the refrain of someone not saying something; it is the silence that occurs when there is nothing to say. This, I would suggest, is what Wittgenstein means by saying “I am not a religious man, but I cannot help seeing any problem from a religious point of view” {LW 94}. It is that tightrope walk, the other road we can take instead of winding ourselves up into the false promises of metaphysics. Ethics If we take up the kind of activity proposed by Wittgenstein, the notion of ethics also takes on a very different cast. Rather than the construction of theories or doctrines, ethics on this view takes the form of a resistance. It is resistant to philosophy, and most importantly, it is resistant to codification. In “A Lecture on Ethics”, Wittgenstein says, value, can be no science. What it says does not add to our knowledge in any sense. {LE 44} As we saw earlier in the essay, nonsense is not necessarily to be condemned; indeed, if the Tractatus is any indication, it can be quite useful. Its use, however, is found in showing. Accordingly, I would suggest that we can engage in nonsensical talk about ethics, but not as a means of directly articulating ethical “truths”. Instead, we can convey ideas about ethics by showing them through our various activities within language-games. As I said in the introduction, literature and poetry can play this kind of role. In Ethics Without Philosophy, Edwards writes that there is no way directly to say what cannot be said. But there are things that can be said which will ‘contain’ the unsayable: to say these things is somehow to communicate what is in itself unsayable. A poem is an example of this phenomenon: it can communicate some ineffable truth about life while talking about the growth of a sprig into a hawthorn bush. A poem may alter one’s whole view of the world, making happy what was unhappy; and it is no accident that the poem makes the change possible. Perhaps without the poem the alteration would never have occurred. {EWP 51-2} Ethical ideas cannot be said, but they indeed can be communicated or shown, thus preventing us from being sealed off into so many solipsistic units. We can indeed affirm ethical stances and beliefs; in The Writing of the Disaster, Maurice Blanchot writes, “affirmation does without proof, provided it claims to prove nothing” {WD 62}; here we see how ethics can thrive (as can ideas about many other meaningful things in life) without the justification of philosophy. But what of lost “objectivity”– how do we prevent the slide into chaotic subjectivity and relativism? The fact that language-games are shared forms of life {PI §23} into which we are all born and initiated shows that we do have a milieu in which the communication of ideas can and does take place. In fact, it would not make sense to deny this! Language is deeply11 and fully a part of our lives and what constitutes us as human beings. Before philosophizing (as well as scientific inquiry) became a cardinal language-game and form of life, ethical living existed: we are not dependent upon it to continue to sustain ethical living. Conclusion An ethics proposed on the strength of Wittgenstein’s religious point of view could not properly be called an ethics. It could not really be theorized or codified: we cannot say the unsayable. Wittgenstein “connects theory, naturally enough, with the concept of explanation; and philosophical explanation he understands to be the attempt to provide foundations” {EWP 99}; since foundations present nothing more than an illusion that leads to misinterpretation and confusion, they should be discarded. If anything, ethical behaviour and thought should be rooted in our forms of life, not in an appeal to a set of regulations or some philosophical doctrine. We can perhaps articulate ideas about ethics, but it is not in the utterances themselves that we see the most meaningful notions. Rather, I would say that the utterances simply point to something that cannot be captured –not necessarily because they are transcendental, as Wittgenstein said in the Tractatus, but perhaps because they are too broad and too complex–by them; the general impulse or direction of ethical propositions can help convey what we really mean, or point us toward what really merits attention and contemplation. In terms of practical matters, ethics on this view would not be treated the same way as philosophical theories. We would not, for instance, try to reconfigure some utilitarian calculus of the “good” over and over again until we got it right. Nor would we ask questions such as whether the good is identical to the beautiful. Instead, I would suggest that issues of the treatment of others would come to the fore, since all ethical thought would occur within forms of life not touched upon by theory. A blanket solution would not be imposed on myriad problems, just creating a disjunction between propositions and the everyday situations to which they supposedly pertain. Propositions (that is, logical propositions or globalizing statements), as we have said, cannot capture contingent states of affairs: this is why propositions about ethics are nothing more than chatter in the end. Realizing this, we can adopt a more critical attitude toward ethical problems, one that does not ignore particular situations in favour of more general ideas. We may be running up against the walls of a cage, but at least we may be doing it in new and different ways every time. Ethical discourse might not, on this view, be restricted to what counts as “rational”; thus, our possibilities for discourse with one another may become fruitful and multiply. This, I suggest, is the type of ethical practice and living that Wittgenstein has in mind when he calls for a refusal of philosophy. Footnotes Works Cited

**Edit: Names! Hello, William (Will) Matthew & Peyton James Jolly :)** Kimberly sent us these photos from her phone -- they look so much like infant Emma! The twins... Emma at about 5 months We're so happy to announce that, at 1:21 PM today,2 Jolly boys joined the family. They weigh 7 lb 15 oz and 5 lb 11 oz, and both Mom Kimberly and babies are doing great. Dad was on hand to give them each the right names (he insisted they couldn't be named just on the order they arrived alone, and he's probably right), and now Emma is one proud big sister! We can't tell you their names yet, but we will as soon as we know them! Now we gotta have a giveaway for an occasion this momentous and life-changing! Comment on this post and tell us one of your life-changing moments, or a piece of advice for a family that suddenly has 3 little ones! The prize? Well, two Fat Quarter Bundles, of course (get it, bundles of joy? Ha-ha?) We'll randomly pick 2 winners who get to choose a Fat Quarter Bundle of their choice. We'll be posting photos soon! In the meantime, I'll use this as a placeholder :) 381 comments:«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 381 Newer› Newest» Congratulations...wow, two bundles of joy! My biggest life-changing events were the births of my two little ones. Life-changing for the better. And my advice, don't nap when the babies are sleeping: SEW! no experience with twins so good luck but we do have three kids under 5. You go from being able tag team to needing to be in midst of triange type upkeep 24/7. So my only advice is to take your vitamins (especially with two boys, I have two as well) and get as much rest as they'll give you. Congrats. I'm old, so I'm had many life changing moments. One that's funny is when we were empty nesters, not retired yet, and our 21 year old called and said she was moving home!, and wasn't going to pay rent!, because she was going to save every penny to by a house. Oh, was that a shocker. Well she did, and she did. Congratulations. Twins would certainly be life changing. Getting married was pretty life changing for me, with many more changes to come. Good luck. Congratulations to all! So glad to hear everyone is healthy, safe and sound. Can't wait to see the pictures of the whole family! Congratulations! I would have to say that having children is the one event that is the most life changing. Wait - you mean, eat somewhere other than BK or McDonalds? My "little ones" are now 19 and 21, and rarely do I STILL every go anywere but there! :) Congrats to the whole family! I don't have kids (yet), so thus far, the biggest life changing even has been getting married, which has been great! Congratulations! Glad to hear everyone is doing well. Emma certainly looks happy. The birth of my daughter was life-changing for me - suddenly, complete responsibility for another person. And it has been wonderful, rewarding, enjoyable - all good things! Congratulations to all, but esp the big sister! Her world will never quite be the same... I don't think anything has changed my life as much as my 2 children- and they're not even twins! Wow--three young kids! My biggest life changing event so far has been getting married--I'm sure I will change that when I start having kids though. Congratulations!!! My life changing life event would have to be my wedding last year. I'm sure that will be trumped once we have kids, but not yet. Multiples run in my DHs family, and our neighbors had twin boys too, and everyone always says take lots of photos and videos because it's going to be so crazy hectic that you won't remember the first year at all. You'll cherish those memories later on. Congratulations! I can't believe I happened to pop into the blog at this moment! Truly a life changing event for me was beginning to teach my quilting class. I had no idea how it would transform me, and how it would build my confidence. The resulting self-assured me has been able to weather difficult situations and a job change more easily. Have fun with the little ones and thanks for having this giveaway! Oh my....double the joy!!! So many things come to my mind about how life alters, but meeting my husband and the joy of our life together is the first thing that comes to mind. Congrats to the BIG sister. XXX Annelies Find a good calendar system, whether it's an online one both parents can log into/download to phones/outlook or a wall or desk calendar... One of those that has a separate line per family member as you will have to many appts to coordinate and now some even have lines to add your menu that you can coordinate how much/what you want to cook based on your days activities and then you take that weeks calendar/menu to have to only go to the store once for the week... Hopefully this is clearer than mud! Congrats! Congratulations to you all! I definitely agree that having my two children have been the most life-changing events for me. :) Congratulations! My life changing event happened just less than 3 months ago upon the arrival of our first daughter, Lily. Advice? Let big sis help; she'll love it, and the help will be nice, too!!! Again, congrats to the whole family! Enjoy every second! Congratulations! My life changing moment was having my twins, my first childrem and my world dramatically changed. My advice is take one day at a time and every day it will get easier. 3 children will bring so much love and joy! My absolutely most life changing event was becoming the mother of a teenager...my new husband's lovely daughter! It is now six years later and I cannot even imagine life without her! Oh wow, two babies , I only had one, and that was live changing, so with two it'll be an even bigger change?? ;-))It'll be busier for sure. Congatulations!!! Congratulations! Advice? I'd just say, don't sweat the small stuff. Let it roll off you. Less stress that way! Oh, a get lots of sleep. (Hmmm, wishful thinking probably!) emma is quite an adorable placeholder!! but i do look forward to seeing the boys! life changing.. probably when i bought my house... and my tip is take one thing at a time.. people try and make it everything they thought they ever wanted all at once and it is much less stressful to do one room at a time... as for kids... i think the same could work... try and take one thing at a time... or two in this case!! A HUGE congrats to the new parents and big sister. I just recently had twins (3.5 months old, our numbers 3&4) and the biggest advice I could give is to take one day at a time! Don't worry about everything else that is going on. Do what you can at the same time (feeding/changing diapers), that way it is more like taking care of one baby. It took me a little bit to figure out the tandem feeding, but it works GREAT! I don't spend near as much time feeding. If one wakes up at night I make sure the other one gets up also to eat, that way I can sleep a little more. Let big sisters feel needed and helpful. Sleep when your little ones sleep. LET PEOPLE HELP. That is always a hard one for me. I hate having other clean my house, but LET THEM! Enjoy!!! This is such a wonderful time and although it may seem a little overwhelming right now, it gets better. I would totally have twins again. Congrats again, I am so happy for you all! Wow-twins would be great! I guess my life-changing moments were when my kids were born & when they each got married! The empty nest was a little different, but I have grown to love it! Congrats on the TWINS. Since I'm not a mom myself - the life changing moments for me are the births of my 7 nieces and nephews. Most of them have quilts made with Fat Quarter Shop Fabric. My advise is get as much sleep as you can. :-) So glad everyone is happy and healthy. So amazing to add to your family and even more blessed with twins. I would have to say life changing for me was 3 1/2 years ago, leaving my job to start my own photography business, so scary and exciting at the same time, but so worth it. Good luck in the coming days and try to enjoy. Take Care! Heartiest Congratulations!!! My life changing event was recently retiring... a far cry from what is on your doorstep, but trust me, equally as joy filled!! LindaSonia (baddabinda@yahoo.com) Probably so many people's life changing moments will center around just a few life events... mine isn't very unusual. It was meeting my husband. At nearly-28 I was reading books with titles like "Singled Out" and "The Godmother" and finding ways to reconcile the prospect of lifelong singlehood with my lifelong dream of being married and having a family. Maybe accepting that possibility was what Fate was waiting for, because right around that time I had a first date with a tall, handsome, talkative man who quizzed me hard about commitment, children, and sharing breakfast cereal. Though we now tell ourselves that we didn't "think it was so" till the fourth date, I surely did think that he was the first real possibility from the very first... Congratulations!! That is wonderful. For me most of my life changing events seem to be centered around my 5 children. I didn't have any twins but I have some friends who have. My advice would be to take things a day a time and try not to get too stressed about keeping the house clean or having the dishes done all the time. Those things can wait. Just hug & love on those babies! Congrats! As a mother of little ones very close together get used to hearing..."Wow, you've got your hands full!" or "You are very busy". Anyway, it is great. Take it one day at a time and take any help you can get. That was my mistake, trying to do everything myself. Congrats again! Congratulations!!! I don't have any kids but here's my shot at some advice: never underestimate the restorative power of a good nap, a good cry, or a good laugh (sometimes you need all three). Congrats to the entire Jolly family. =) Those are really nice sized babies for twins! My advice is to make sure Kimberly remembers to take care of mommy. ;-) Congratulations! One of my life changing moments was twelve years ago today when I married my husband. Who knew then all the things we would go through and how hard we would always have to work to be a team. It has been a great twelve years though and I can't wait to see what the next twelve hold in store. Congrats! As the mommy to two under two, my only advice is to seek the joy in each day. When you are covered in poo, babies and are so tired you can't see straight - remember the joy you have right in front of you. Congratulations times two on the birth of two little precious ones! So wonderful! As far as the caring for two new babies plus little Emma, I would say remember to take care of yourself so you can take care of them. This might look like accepting the help and support of friends and family. Also, prioritize what is the most important for each day! Have fun! Congratulations!! I'm guessing that with 2 this advice would go double ... Sleep when they sleep! Can't wait to see pictures! Wow!!! Congratulations!!!! It was most amazing when my first little girl was born! After having 2 boys, plus 2 stepsons, I wanted a little girls SOOO badly. The ultrasound tech had said she couldn't tell for sure but that little thing there looked like it might be a boy. We were ecstatic when she was born and we were told she was a girl. Words can't describe the joy I felt! Now another girl and another boy later, my life is so full, and so complete! My advice is to remember that everything that needs to get done today will likely still be there tomorrow, so enjoy the time with those little guys!!! Congratulations, congratulations!! What wonderful news! Can't wait to hear the names and see pictures. As a mom of twins, my advice is to have Kimberly join your local Moms of Multiples group ASAP. Meeting other moms who've been there, done that (or were going through it at the same time!) saved my life. It is HARD work initially, but so worth it. My twins are now 4.5 and are the best of friends. Congratulations, twins boys, wow, very exiting. Like the other mums my biggest life changing events were the birth of my 2 chilred (23 &21 next week). I am going to echo the advise that you take any help offered. My niece is the mother of 8 month old twins and a 2 & 4 year old. She wanted to prove she can do it all herself and fell in a big heap and still struggles big time everyday despite the offer of help. I also think take one day at a time and rest as much as you can when the boys are sleeping. Have a specific play box for your daughter that she only plays with at the twins feed time including possibly her own baby. All the best. I am very much looking forward to seeing pics. Gail gcom31@optusnet.com.au My life never changed, so here's my advice for the Jolly family with THREE little ones: take-out, nannies, housekeepers, Mommy's Day Out, Daddy's Day Out, earplugs ... wait, just kidding on that last one - I think! Congratulations to Kimberly and Kevin on this blessed event! Miss Emma is going to be a dynamite big sister! xo Oh! How exciting. Congratulations to all the Jollys. My advice would be to enjoy every minute of everyday. Their childhoods will pass in the blink of a eye and you will wonder how it could be over so quickly. CONGRATULATIONS to you ALL!!!!1 Congratulations! My biggest life changing events were definitely the births of my two daughters! Can't top that in my book :-) Everyone's had great advice so far - sleep when you can, take all the help you can get. But also know when to say No. The babies don't belong to anyone else, and ultimately it's the parents who make the decisions. Don't let anyone else completely take over! Congratulations to Kimberly and the whole family! I can imagine what you´re all going trough. My life-chaging experience was also when my 2 twin-boys were born. They are already turning 13 this month, nut I still vividly remember when they were born :) Adbie, from a twin´s mum: nurse them at the same time when they are newborns, and and feed them at the same time still when they are older. That will save you precious time to spen with your babies! on the new additions. My life-changing event was marrying into a family of 6 children. Flexibility and love without limits will take you to wonderful places. Kathie L from Allentown Congratulations! I had a friend with twin boys and they brought her so much joy! Being a newlywed I don't have that much advice, but I certainly have lots of well wishes! Well, I have no children, so I can't give you any advice on that! :) Life changing moment..Hmm...I guess it would have to be when my nephew was born. He was so tiny and fragile. Made me realize just how fragile life is. He's a strapping 16 (almost 17) year old now! Sandy A in St. Louis How wonderful. Congratulations! My advice is don't worry about the little things. Slow down. If you don't accomplish everything you want to do today, it is okay. Take time to enjoy what you did accomplish. Tomorrow will be a brand new start. Congrats on the boys!! My biggest life changing moment happened 17 years ago when my son was born. I was 40... I thought I had surgery to prevent pregnancy, but alas it didn't work!! LOL I guess the laugh was on me... Congratulations on the birth of your twin boys. I know you will have your hands full. Congratulations! Hold them close and love them lots. Enjoy them they grow up so fast. Congratulations! Can't wait to find out their names. I don't have any children but I'm thinking the best advice is to make sure to give Emma attention as well. Sometimes the new babies get all the attention. I'm sure Emma is going to be a good little helper. Oh yeah, do the boys have red hair too or is it too early to tell? Congratulations!!! I can't wait to see pictures of them. Biggest life changing moment would have to be sons birth. It's when I became a MOM! What great news!! My advice is to love and appreciate every moment with them. It may not seem like it now, but they really do grow up so fast. Congratulations to you all! I could hardly go to bed before seeing the next twitt from"Almost time". My life changed when I was born,went abroad the first time,got married, and everyday! Please enjoy every minute with your new family. I can't wait to see the pictures! Well that's wonderful news! Congradulations everyone, especially big sister. What a wonderful picture that is. Can't wait to see pictures of all 3 siblings. Good going! Congratulations-how wonderful! Congratulations! Having twin boys was definitely my most life changing event. They will turn 29 next month and are still amazing me all the time. My best advice is sleep whenever you can, don't worry about housework and don't turn down any offer of help no matter how small. Oh, and have fun! Such exciting news, glad to hear things went smoothly! Only advice I can possibly offer is to keep a sense of humor as best as possible for those first few months and try to remember it will get easier for everyone before you know it! I hear the second time around it is a little easier to appreciate how tiny they are knowing how fast it all goes. Best of luck!! Congratulations! Two wonderful bundles of joy must be so much fun! My biggest life-changing experience would have to be the emergency c-section of my youngest child. Thankfully, I had a wonderful doctor and was truly blessed---everything turned out fine! Wow!!! That's fantastic news for me today. You have made my day.... Congrats to Kim, Kevin and Emma on having two little treasures to add to their family. My greatest live changing moment or moments - giving birth to our beautiful four children!! They are now 18, 17, 15 and 9 and are fabulous. Too add a fat quarter bundle to my stash would be heaven.....Best wishes, Cheryl, Brisbane, Australia Congratulations! Of course my 2 kids were life changing, but another significant event was giving in to the kids and getting a dog. Who knew I would become a dog person?! It was a wonderful expanding event in our family. Wishing you all the best! Please enter me in the drawing. OMG look at that gorgeous redhead...I could eat her up!!! I hope the 2 boys are as cute as her!!! Having children is in my experience enough of a life altering experience as any....but the most rewarding! Peggy in NJ I can't imagine twins! I wish the Jolly family lots of love and sleep! I have always wanted hair that beautiful coppery orange color. What a gorgeous big sister! Many congratulation to Kimberly and her family, the birth of twins is both amazing and daunting at the same time (twin girls aged 5 here so I know where you are coming from). Big sister looks so happy...and somewhat overwhelmed (not one but TWO brothers???) but she will be an amazing helper. My biggest hint has already been said, take it one day at a time. And of course, take some extra time with Emma, I know our oldest had a hard time with us dealing with the twins and I finally had to step back and realize that she was feeling lonely. We started having our Mommy and Me dates, we would go out for lunch and she would get to pick what we did, just her and I or just her and dad. We still continue it to this day and its brought our family together in such a great way. Families are such a blessing, congrats again :) Michelle Congratulations! I admit the jump from 1 to 2 was harder than adjusting to 1 so I can only imagine a jump to 3---you're outnumbered! My advice? Mix it up! While routine and structure is necessary to a child so is a little non-routine. Eat dessert first. Picnic on the living room. Stay in your pajamas all day and watch movies together. My boys accept the routine of every day knowing that on occasion we throw it all away! Now you'll realize that we need more fabric lines for boys! Congratulations!!! no multiples for me but I do have 4 daughters, and my advice is to cherish each and every day, find humor and enjoy the gift you've been given. Also housework always waits, children grow up so quickly, this weekend my oldest married her sweetie it seems like yesterday she was playing barbies. Oh YEA! Two sweet baby boys...and from their weights it sounds like are nice and healthy! That truly is wonderful news. There is nothing like a new baby, and lucky you gets TWO!! I can imagine it will take time to adjust to your new big family, but treasure each and every moment. It goes by too quickly. One of my biggest life-changing moments was this past December when I quit my job in order to pursue a more creative career! Thanks for the giveaway! Congrats!!!! Wow, three little ones. I haven't had one of those great life changing events yet, but my best life changing even was when my niece was born. Even though she's 3000 miles away, she's still MY niece. Congrats again, keeps lots of diapers on hand. Congrats on the birth of the twins! I saw this quote on a blog today and it said, "Keep calm and carry on". I think this is appropriate! And enjoy them, the'll be grown before you know it! libertythreads@charter.net Congrats to the happy family! Since I have no little ones of my own, I would say that some of my biggest life-changing moments were when my nephews were born. Who knew a heart could grow so big so quickly? Congratulations!!!! I remember when my twins were born; 24 minutes apart; one was 7'15" the other 7'9". My life changing moment? I would say the stillbirth of our son 15 months before the twins (both girls) were born. Losing him made me realize what was really important.... and I cherished them and their older sister (who was 8 when they were born) that much more. My advice? Let the dustballs lay where they are and except any and all help you are offered. Hugs!!! Congratulations to the new family. Having children was life changing as was becoming a foster parent. Best advice?? Try to find humor in chaos or unplanned moments. CONGRATULATIONS!!! Congratulations on your double blessings. The most life-changing was the birth of my first child. #7 was just a little more in the fold. My advice, accept help when offered. Don't be afraid to ask for help when you need it. congrats to Kimberly and family on the safe arrival of the boys........ CONGRATULATIONS! WELCOME LITTLE BABIES! I've never had kids, but I've been around a lot of them. My best advice is have a good Auntie that will watch Emma once in a while to give her attention since twins are busy little people. It helps Mom & Dad (ask my brother--he has two twin boys and an older daughter). Not sure if Auntie can handle the boys--they are four & full of themselves! Congrats!!!! I havent popped them out yet but if I had three little ones I would try not to get behind on laundry. :) Well, I guess you could always sew more. Congratulations on the little ones! Congratulations on the new babies, I'm so happy for you! I don't know if this giveaway is world-wide (I'm from Brazil), but here I am. A life-changing moment for me was, definitely, the birth of my beautiful daghter. She is now 7 years old, and all I can say is that she is a blessing! Love Helena Sorry... I meant 'daughter'! Congratulations, Kimberly, Kevin and big sister Emma!! I can't wait to see what the names are. Don't know about my biggest (there's been lotsa big ones) but one of them was moving from my comfy, suburban, close to everything house out to the country where the closest convenience is a feed store. Oh how I love babies! Congrats on the twins! Can't wait to see pictures! I think one of my biggest life changing moments was when my daughter was born. All of a sudden my parent filters kicked in and I became Mama Bear. I liked it. :) Congratulations on the boys! Boys are wonderful! Life changing event-my 3 children and now my 4 red headed grandchildren. I love being a Mimi! Congratulations! The birth of my own sons was my biggest life changing moment. As for advice, keep grandma and your best girlfriend on speed dial. Best wishes : ) Wow! I only had one at a time, and I feel overwhelmed! My only advice is to do what YOU feel is right and forget the rest (comments, suggestions, etc). Parents are the experts on their children! Congrats! Wow they were nice weights for twins! The best advice I can give you is alcohol and earplugs. Congratulations! Enjoy every moment for they grow up far too soon. Congratulations! Try to get as much sleep as you can and don't try to be perfect is my advice. My life changing events was the birth of my two kids. Happiest moments of my life! Congratulations on your new sons The births of my three sons were life changing. My one piece of advice? Love them, hug them and always smile. Remember, they grow up fast. Congratulations! What wonderful and exciting news. Can't wait to see pictures. Everyone loves babies because they remind us of everything good and precious in the world. What a blessing! No kids yet, so my biggest changes were getting married and buying a house! Congrats on the healthy baby boys!!! My life changing moment was when I met my husband and I always swore I'd never get married after seeing my parents in action. Congrats on the bouncing baby boys! Though I only have one daughter, I'd say enjoy every day with them, they grow up soooooo fast! Before you know it they will be ornery teens LOL Congrats!!! How wonderful! My most life changing moment was definitely the moment(s) that my sons were born, nothing compares to that first moment you meet the little creature that you've nutured for the past nine months. WoW! Huge Congratulations to the very blessed family! Best wishes for lots of sleep in the coming months! My biggest life changers was the birth of my first little girl. My husband and I went from being two individuals, to two very humbled teammates! Every day being a mom can feel like a life changer, though!!! Anyway, congrats and enjoy those babies! Congratulations!!! What a wonderful gift, two healthy babies. God bless all of you. My advice, although I have 2 girls (age 4 years and 4 months), is to sew whenever possible. Even if it is for just a few minutes, sewing is soothing. Enjoy your new bundles and your beautiful daughter! Congrats! I am very happy for you. Having my 2 daughters was the biggest changing moment in my life by far. Congratulations times Two!!! I don't have advice for twins, but I know that you will be having tons of fun!! And burning lots of energy too. Can't wait to hear their names. Breathe. Keep breathing. Don't stop breathing. Nice deep breaths. Congratulations! Thrilling times ahead for all. Being a twin and being a big sister and at some point, you're counting to three everytime you leave the house or walk in the mall. LOL Congratulations to the ENTIRE family! Hmmm, advice, just love them with all your might, even when they become teenagers. My life changing moment, besides having my boys was one month after having #3, having to move 5 hours away from my parents and other family members and losing my support system. I had to be a "real grownup". Connie My advice is that petroleum jelly is the best diaper rash preventative that there is. Congratulations on the double bundles of joy and the Magic number three children in the house! Enjoy! realizing it's already been said, birth of my son was easily the most life-changing thing to ever happen to me. whoa! but congratulations, and here's to a quick recovery, mom! Congrats! As a mom of 4, my advice is..........your house will never be perfectly clean for a long time. You have more important things to concern yourself w/. Let the housework slide. Oh my goodness. My advice is if someone offers to help you--say YES!!!! oh yayyy!!! congrats on the jolly boys!!! and trust me, we have 3, and it's not as hard as people make it out to be. promise. {i'm ready for 2 more.} my heart is happy that god blessed yall's family. Congratulations on the birth of your twin baby boys! Glad to hear you are all doing well. A friend of mine had twins and she said that she napped in the afternoons when her twins napped. She said it helped make up for some of the lost sleep at night. You are blessed. Wishing you all the best as your family grows. :0) Congratulations! so far, my biggest life change was going off to college. It was my first time on my own, and the place I would meet my husband and so many forever friends. My wedding was a life change, and I'm sure kids will be one day too, but that first taste of freedom and responsibility was a big stepping stone. Here's to happy and healthy babies! Congratulations on the new family members! Congratulations! What a blessed family! 5 years ago yesterday, I found out that I was expecting my first child. It was a life changing moment even though it was impossible to really understand all that encompassed. So happy for you! Wonderful news! congratulations! I've had 6 of my own and really loved motherhood. Every stage was life changing! And now, a new stage; a life changing stage is about to happen...our youngest is heading off to college in a few short weeks and hubby and I will be alone after...count them....30 YEARS!!!! I can hardly wait, and yet I think we'll be so bored without anyone at the dinner table with us....it'll be weird, yet I amso looking forward to only having to pick up after hubs and myself....ahhhh! Congratulations on these new additions! Take a few minutes every day to reflect on the joys of your family and the blessings! Congratulations on being blessed with twins! We only have one child and are desperately hoping that god will someday bless us with more. So my advice would be...don't listen to all the people that say children get spoiled when you hold them too much. Hold them, and hug them for as long as you can because they grow up way too fast. And whether you like it or not, one day they will want you to stop holding them! Children are definitely life changing! We have two boys and each have changed our family for the better. Also my husband and I are going to celebrate our 10th anniversary this weekend, so we consider ourselves very blessed. Yay! Congratulations to the Jolly family! Advice: remember to take time for Mom and Dad. It's good for your children to see you go on dates and spend time together. Babysitters are good things! Congratulations to All! Your Grandaughter is absolutely adorable and I am sure will be a big help for Mom. I am a Mom of 5 and Nana of 10. The only advice I would give is what my Dear Mom gave to me-- God gives all parents instincts to help in the raising of our Children. If you listen to your instincts 99% of the time you will be right. You have gotten a Huge Blessing, Enjoy Life changer?? Is there anything more life changing than having children?? I can't imagine anything rocking my world than when my 2nd daughter arrived. It was a good shake up, but boy howdy was there a learning curve! Congratulations times Two! Having just spent a week with a newborn granddaughter, I am all about that sweet, sweet smell. Enjoy. So very happy for your little family! How fun to be a big sister in your house. A life-changing moment in our house has been our first heading off to college. There's always another corner to turn. Enjoy every moment! My advice is to give up any cleaning ambitions your family may have. Relax and enjoy your kids. Congrats!! My Dear Daughter just gave us her good news of baby due in March. Dad and Big Sister (age of 7) and her Sister Dog, are really really excited! Nothing beats that new baby smell!! Enjoy the double whiffs of joy! Congratulations! What a wonderful journey in life. One of my life changing experiences was the day I stopped smoking. I realized I had brought my kids into this world not to be poisons but to flourish life a flower in the wild open field of life. God's creation, a healthy child is a miracle to be nourished with love. Kimberly you have lots of love and warmth..Lots of Blessings to your new family. Carolyn Terrier Just coming to say YEAH for the 2 newest members! As a twin myself, enjoy them! My twin sister and I are best friends. It's an awesome relationship. Advice? Remember they are 2 separate individuals, and stress that. My sister and I used to get presents to share a lot, growing up, for well-meaning friends/relatives. They thought of us as one unit, not thinking. It was not fun... LOL! Life-changing moment for me? Living through Katrina, and then finding out that God had something so much better for us than what we had. God is good, all the time! Nancy Congratulations! Advice: Rock, rock, rock... they grow too large for rocking and cuddling WAY too fast! Kat Congrats! Just play, enjoy every single moment! It goes by so fast and you will look back and wish you could have those days back again. Can't wait to see pictures and how much big sister loves the twins! Congrats to the Jolly House! Life changing - definitely having kids. I had 3 kids, 4 and under, and I loved it. It's a bit hectic, but really, I'd go back to those days in a heartbeat. Congrats on the two little ones. My life changing moment was when my first Grandchild was born, the same year I turned 50. I made a couple of promises to myself that I haven't gone back on yet in ten years. Enjoy all three grandchildren. They are so precious. Karen Congratulaitons!! My life changing moment is the birth of my son because when you become a mother for the first time comes a huge responsibility. A great one! Congrats! Glad all are well. My biggest moment was birth of number 4, who was a premie! As for advice, remember there is no normal. :) Just roll with the punches... Wonderful news!! Enjoy each & every moment you have with your new bundles of joy!! SO many big congrats! Twins! Goodness...I can barely keep up with one. My only advice is take all of the help that's offered and ASK for help when you need it. I'm sure there's a lot of people around the JOllys that would love to help out with meals or bathroom scrubbing or babysitting. Can't wait to hear the names! Marrying my husband Ed was a life changing moment for me! The end of the single life and the start of a new one with him. Combine that with going to seminary at the same time..... God bless you Kimberly and your whole family, including these brand new baby boys! Congratulations on the babies! My baby is grown now but I often remember the joy of his life. God Bless You All! One of my life changing moments was definitely the birth of my first grandchild. What a delirious feeling. Second only to the birth of my first child. And he will be 14 this year. Wow, how the time flies! Congratulations! My only advice is to enjoy each tiny moment as it comes! Wow, congratulations to Kimberly and all!! And still thirty-one years late, I have to say my life changing moment was my first born son. It was the most awesome day of my life and I will never forget it! Congratulations! I have 3, and you should take lots of pictures and video since they grow up so quickly! I can't believe my baby is 3 already! Congratulations!!! My most life changing event so far would probably be getting married. congratulations to all, the most momentous occasion would have been baby nos 6 after a eight year gapand moving to a bigger house when she was 7 days old. Congratulations on 2 lovely little boys !! Advice - enjoy every moment, they grow up so fast. Congrats on the wonderful additions to the family! My most recent life changing moment was becoming an empty nester when my son joined the Army. He is now in Germany and it's hard to believe that he's all grown up! Treasure those little ones while they are young cause they will grow up way too quickly! Congrats on the twins! How wonderful and what fun it will be! I'm sure Miss Emma will be a sweet big sis! I don't think anything in my life changed as much as becoming a mother. Hold them close - they grow up too fast! Oh - and take LOTS of pictures!! I never thought becoming a grandmother would change my life like becoming a mother did. Well it did, loving a little someone that you watch your child being parent to is life changing! My advise is to worry about all the other stuff later in life, and keep your babies(all 3 of them)close while they need and want to be close to you. It goes by SO fast! Beth from Ca. What a wonderful day! Congratulations! Like everyone else, becoming a mother was the most life changing event for me. I have loved every minute (almost) since Hudson was born. Here's a teething tip: Put some water in a baby bottle and freeze upside down. Then let the baby naw on the frozen nipple. =) I have 3 sons, now 17, 20, 21. I kept a mason jar by the washer/dryer. I always put the little stuff I'd get out of their pockets into this jar. It was so fun to see the kinds of things a little boy considers "treasures" to save in his pocket. It has lego people, plastic animals, sticks, rocks...I could just keep going! Oh yeah, keep that thing covered when you change their diapers or you'll get a shower! Congrats! The birth of my daughters (5 and 3) were the biggest life changing moments for me. In an instant, seeing those tiny babies laid on my chest, I knew the deepest love imaginable. My life changed the second I caught my first glimpse of them! And now, my oldest is headed off to Kindergarten this year! wah! My advice... let it go and just live. The dust will be back tomorrow even if you clean it up today. There will be dirty laundry and dirty dishes. That's okay. Just be with those babies (all 3a) as much as humanly possible. I think, I KNOW, we need them as much as they need us. Now I'm off to peek at my sleeping babies! :) Congratulations!! My most life changing moment was the birth of my 5th and last daughter, I felt so utterly complete. My advice is simply to do the best you can with the information and support you have available, and learn to say YES to help! Congratulations! Enjoy them while you can...time passes very quickly. My 'bundle of joy' will turn 30 this year! Please enter me in the drawing. How exciting! Emma is so so cute! Advice: don't let every little thing upset you. Life changing for me was the day, 18 years ago, when my girls were young... I stood by the refrigerator and made a promise to myself that from now on I would not let every little thing upset me. ...sure need a fat quarter pack Thanks for the chance to win! Hi Congrats to all ..how wonderful. My advice to the mother of three is "don't sweat the small stuff"! In later years they (and you) won't care that their shirt wasn't ironed or that you had spaghetti three nights in a row. They will however care that you took the time to read to them, cuddle them and took the time to teach them wrong from right. Baby boys are wonderful things (I have had three) but it's a good idea to invest in some ear plugs! :-) Congratulations! Emma will be a great big sister!! I didn't have twins, but I have 3 girls, each 15 months apart, so I had 3 kids 2 1/2 and under. It was a fun, crazy zoo! My best piece of advice is to always make each one feel special in some way. And enjoy the craziness... they grow so quickly and you will find you miss it when they are older :o) That's a big adjustment! I'm not a mom, but I'm the oldest of 7 kids, and did a lot of "mom-ing" over the years. My best advice is--never be afraid to ask for help. Family, friends, neighbors, guildies--they likely want to help but don't want to overstep bounds or don't know what you need. Tell them! People want to feel useful, and even if it's just running an errand, it will help you out in the long run, too. Good luck and congrats! Oh, congratulations! So exciting. (And I do love that photo of Emma so just keep it up there as long as you like!) My biggest life changing moment was when we found out that our son's birth mother picked us to adopt him and he came home with us a mere 6 days later. Talk about a lot of trips to Target! :-) He's still amazing even though he's headed into two with a vengeance--laughing hysterically over everything then screaming and kicking for 30 seconds followed by a swift return to everything is so, so funny. Ah, two. He is still the most life changing thing that happens to me every day. In a good way! Congratulations! ENJOY every moment...you've been given very special gifts. Savor this time...they grow up so fast! (And, as I mother of a little boy...my advice is to stock up on Spray-n-Wash!) Congratulations! So glad all went well! Adorable pic of Emma! :) Advice for family with three children, from one of three siblings... take turns getting to choose (ice cream flavor, toys, places to go, what to do) and keep rotating it, so as not to go by age or birth order. And don't get all three the same of anything - treat each one as the individual they are! Life changing moment? Moving from the city to a farm, without seeing the house my husband purchased first. Never, ever, ever again... I think your life-changing moment is MUCH more positive!!! CONGRATULATIONS and thanks for keeping us in the loop! So exciting! My advice is to never be shy about accepting or asking for help. People who love you are more than happy to jump in when you need a hand. Congratulatoins and blessings to you all, beautiful family! Our family jumped from 3 to 5 the exact same way; my identical girls followed my boy! My advice to sweet mom Kim is put them on a schedule. A matronly old nurse told me that the day my girls were born; she gave me a clipboard and a pen and told me to record EVERY feeding and diaper change and look for patterns, pushing one to wait a smidge longer to feed and one to wake up a bit earler until they were one right after the other. It made ALL the difference in the world! Those baby girls are 18 and their big brother JUST got married this weekend. Enjoy them! That same nurse also told me the first 6 weeks are the hardest so I kept a calendar and crossed off each day...it may have been in my mind only, but it worked! Congratulations! This is fantastic. We have two boys as well as I have to say our first child was the biggest shock we experienced. We went from being able to go somewhere on a moments notice -- to being lucky to arrive anywhere before noon. Congratulations on the little ones. I miss those days. rsgrandinetti@yahoo(dot)com Congratulations! wow, twins! I only have one 5 year old (it's enough for me!) so I can't give advice on three although I did think it would be nice to have twins so you could get it all over and done with at once. Anyway, a life changing moment for me was after I divorced my husband two years ago and finally stepped out on my own. I was so fragile and didn't think I could do it but just look at me now, I rock! Congratulations to all! It is soooo exciting. Advice....hmmmmm....hard to come up with advice because they have already done this once. I guess I would say to let others lend a hand whenever they offer....oh and I do suggest washing baby socks in a mesh lingerie bag so they do not get lost. I also had twin boys in my classroom this year and one has "always" sported bangs while the other never has and kept it cropped...which is nice for the teacher. Congrats!!! Life changing events...I married a man who had 2 teenagers, got pregnant withing 9 months of marriage and when that little guy was 11 months old I was 9 months pregnant with baby #2 and moving from WA to TN by myself to wait for the rest of my clan to arrive. It was go then with the 11 month old and the other one still in womb or travel with 2 little ones, 1 dog, 1 cat, 1 teenage boy and a husband along with whatever belongings we could maybe fit into a dodge intrepid. What is the best advice I could offer? Roll with it. There will be so many sleepless nights and so many moments of wondering what your doing BUT those moments fly by (as Mom and Dad already know with Emma). My little ones are 3 and 4 and I'd take back the year 2006 in a heart beat...just to hold the little ones so close to me again. Just to be the only one up in the middle of the night getting to know my little ones in a way no one else has. AWESOME! Congratulations! My life changed drastically when my twins were born a couple of years ago, and it was equally difficult for our daughter who was barely 5 when they were born. She loves them now but it was a tough road for her. We've learned to have date nights just for her. We get a sitter for the twins and take her to dinner, then bring her back home to play with the sitter while we go out on our date! My advice would be to take all the help you can get and don't try to be supermom. I have a hard time accepting help, much less asking for it, so that first 6 months was horrible for me until I learned to let people help. Congratulations again and God bless you! What wonderful news! Hope everyone is healthy and happy. Every day is a life-changing experience...it's just that we don't usually see how small decisions alter our paths. Best advice is to do whatever works for you! When someone tells you how it "should" be done, smile and do what you need to do. :) Congratulation to that great news. The birth of my daugther was truly the biggest change and challange of my life.. ;-)) also, when i met my husband. From the moment i saw him i knew, i wll marry him. Now we are married for 15 years and happy together. have a great day and please put me in.. MAike Congratulations! and welcome little babies. Congrats! Children are the angels! My life changed when my girls were born and graced me with 10fingers and 10little toes each 30yrs ago, watching my daughter with 3 children 6mos, 2 Today!!, and 6yrs old. Life is very busy with the oldest into to sports and my daughters trys to do it all! As someone else stated here let the dust stay and dishes in the sink. Time will pass so fast and dust will still be there however those babies will be big boys and emma will be dancing, or playing a sport of some sort, dont miss anything they do for dust,dishes etc. Little boys are just sweet and loving. Have a wonderful time Emma with your Bothers. Sheri Congrats to your family! Hope you are doing well as well as two new babies... My life changing moment was to come to this country, to the US and learned quilting :))) congratulations! take the time each day to enjoy each one of your children and remember Emma will need a bit more attention since everyone will be in awe of the boys. Take lots and lots of pictures something I regret as my girls got older not doing enough of. Kathie Congratulations! I don't have children yet but my mom always says that you need to sleep while the babies are sleeping otherwise you'd never be able to rest ^^ And enjoy your beautiful family! Thanks a lot. Congrats on both baby's. My Life changing moment was that I met my husband, started quilting and when I broke my leg. Just take everything one day at a time! My oldest was 3 1/2 when number three came along... things will be crazy, but a good kind of crazy! Congratulations! Hope you'll all be very happy. I'm young yet so I can't honestly say I've had too many life-changing moments... I'd have to say graduating high school and getting accepted into the uni course I'm doing now. Thanks for the competition :) Wonderful news! Twin boys - sounds like double the fun, how exciting! My life changing moment - marrying for the second time, going from an only son to a mother of three! We were later joined by a second son & life has never been the same since! Chris x Congratulations!! Having kids is definitely a life changing moment. My best advice is to take things one day, one event at a time. Congratulations to the Jolly family and to beautiful big sister, Emma! Life changing moment? Moving across the country and a month later giving birth to my son who joined his barely 2-year-old sister in our new home. My only advice would be to take it one day at a time, don't let the little things (like piles of laundry and a sinkful of dirty cups) get you down and enjoy. congratulations! while i do not have children, from my outside looking in perspective, it seems like one of the best things you can do with your kids if give each of them one on one time. Wow, congratulations! I only have two, so I can't give any tips on having 3 - I can only imagine what it must be like to have 2 newborns at once :) I guess that in my life I've had many moments that have sent me down a new path, but finding out that I was pregnant and then meeting my 2 children would have to be the greatest :) Congratulations! Twins?! Oh my. :) Emma will be one happy big sister! My life-changing event was when I decided to move out on my own. I hadn't lived on my own before and was afraid to do so without a roommate. I had been a very dependent person before moving out and now I'm extremely independent. Complete personality change! I found myself and found several hobbies that I love. Good luck with the new babies! I'd give advice on that, but I have no clue since I'm not a parent. All I have to say is goooood luck! Congratulations on the birth of your twins! One of my biggest life-changing events is when my sister and three of her teen-aged children came to live with me. I went from living alone to living with four other people. It was an adjustment, but I am richer for the experience. what a cutie. The only advice I can offer is lots of sleep!! Wow! How exciting!!! No particular advice for living with three little ones... but try to enjoy them. They grow so fast. Life changing moments... lots of 'em! My oldest daughter told her grandparents on the way to meet her new baby brother at the hospital that she really wanted a sister!!! Oh well. She got one three years later! Hello Jolly twins!! So delighted that everything went OK and that the babies are both healthy :) My life-changing moment was the day that I left all of my family in Canada and moved to England to share my life with someone whom I originally met online! 10 years later and I'm as happy as a bunny (still!) :) Nikki Congratulations! My biggest life changing event was the birth of our twins in 2003....my advise: set a schedule, and STICK TO IT...it's what kept me sort of sane! Melanie (rphmel30@yahoo.com) Congrats!! I had 4 kids in 5 years, none twins but they were all certainly life changing events! My advise, now that you're officially outnumbered, always remember to take things one at a time. You're not an octopus and can't handle more than one thing at a time - it's overwhelming when it can't get done and too many "projects" just leads to lots of unfinished to-do's. Same with the kids, you're going to feel stretched in so many directions, so give them each a turn and remind them that you love them all the same. Oh that picture of Emma is so sweet. Congratulations on the new baby boys. So glad to hear that all is well. A life changing event for me was when my husband, children, and I moved to North Carolina from Florida. So many great things have happened in our lives. Congratulations! My advice is enjoy every second, and take LOTS of pictures - it goes by way too quick! How absolutely FABULOUS!!! Congratulations. Kidlets are definitely life changing - for the better - always. The joy and wonder they have brough to my life. The love that they give and make me feel - Life Changig!! Accept the help that people offer and take each day slowly - new routines take time to establish - that would be my very best advice. Wow, and congrats! My only advice is to enjoy every moment that you get. I had only one but now that she is 25 I have so many wonderful memories.... Congratulations! I can't imagine any advice since I've not been there done that with twins! As for my own life-changing event, it would have to be becoming a stay-at-home-mom. Flipped our world around, but it sure has been fun! Congrats! Wow, such a blessed day for your family. Attending the birth of my grandchildren was my most recent life altering event. LIFE IS GOOD!!! How wonderful! What a great day! A life changing moment for me was when I adopted my foster daughter and she became my very own. It was a great day that we celebrate every year. God Bless, Cathy Congratulations! I guess my life is pretty devoid of life-altering experiences to this point. My biggest life-changing experience was going from being a student to getting a real full-time job! (sounds silly, I know) No more homework or studying, but I do have to get up every. morning.

If you are inclined to agree with Rush Limbaugh, it is possible you agree with his contention that The Dark Knight Rises is liberal propaganda smearing Mitt Romney. “Do you think it is accidental that the name of the really vicious, fire-breathing, four-eyed, whatever-it-is villain in this movie is named Bane?" Limbaugh asked on his radio show. He added, “So this evil villain in the new Batman movie is named Bane. And there's discussion out there as to whether or not this was purposeful and whether or not it will influence voters. It.” Never mind that Bane was created and introduced in 1993. Or that the third entry in director Christopher Nolan’s Batman trilogy basically went into production the second after The Dark Knight hit theaters in 2008 and selected Bane as its villain long before Romney was the last GOP presidential candidate standing. Limbaugh’s reaction was predictable. He and many other conservatives never pass on an opportunity to bash Hollywood and lament what they see as rampant liberalism in mainstream movies. It happens at least a few times a year. Back in February The Lorax was accused of brainwashing kids with pro-environment propaganda. The problem with these claims is that Hollywood only cares about one color, and it’s not blue. Yes, there is no shortage of liberals in the entertainment industry. But that is a matter of personal politics. Movie studios need their products to appeal to as wide an audience as possible. They are aggressively seeking the best possible return on their investments. The fact is movie studios now are part of huge corporations. Universal is controlled by Comcast. Columbia is part of the Sony family. Paramount is part of Viacom. And what are the primary objectives of corporations? Maximize shareholder value and turn a profit. Make as much money as humanly possible. Everything else is secondary. Hollywood will jump on any trend if it thinks there is money in it. Right now cheaply made “found footage” horror movies are popular. They are low risk, high reward. Another example of this is faith-based films. After the runaway success of The Passion of the Christ, numerous studios got involved in producing and distributing movies aimed at viewers of faith. Sony Pictures Entertainment has Affirm Films. Their titles include Courageous and Fireproof. Samuel Goldwyn Films occasionally releases faith-based films including this year’s October Baby. New Line, part of Warner Bros. Entertainment, released The Nativity Story. Often studios hold advanced screenings for churches to generate positive word of mouth with “spiritual” audiences even if the movie isn’t overtly faith-based. Prior to releasing Secretariat in 2010, Disney held screenings at large churches across the country. The studios saw new revenue streams with these viewers. There was demand so they made sure to meet it. The same is true for the low-budget horror movies. After Paranormal Activity, everyone jumped on the bandwagon. The studios and the people running them just see dollar signs. Warner Bros. spent $400 million to make and market The Dark Knight Rises. It needs to make far more than that to become profitable. The studio is not going to risk alienating millions of potential ticket buyers by making an overtly political film. As The Hollywood Reporter points out today, there was a lot of debate about the politics of The Dark Knight. Both conservatives and liberals found ideological messages in it and the same will probably be true of The Dark Knight Rises. Many viewers will read into it what they want to and seek to find messages that are aligned with their beliefs. However one feels about the movie and its content, the only thing the studio cares about is whether or not you buy a ticket. Bob McBride 9:56 am on Thursday, July 19, 2012 I guess the barrel of burning issues has about bottomed out. James R Hoffa 10:30 am on Thursday, July 19, 2012 @Mr. Doro - "The studio is not going to risk alienating millions of potential ticket buyers by making an overtly political film." So then, exactly how did Oliver Stone's so-called biopic films about JFK, Nixon, and George W Bush ever get greed lighted? And why do the studios now agree to front Michael Moore millions of dollars to produce his line of so-called documentaries? The mere existence of the Fox News and MSNBC pundits show that there is a demand for both right and left leaning political fare. And while the ratings of those two networks would suggest a far larger audience for right-wing political fare, Hollywood has consistently turned out more left-wing political fare. Need I even mention HBO Films as being a notoriously liberal production house? So, how exactly do you reconcile the discrepancy between apparent demand vs the product actually turned out by Hollywood? Paul Doro 10:33 am on Thursday, July 19, 2012 Oliver Stone's films are biopics that did not cost $400 million to make and market. Michael Moore's documentaries make money. Like I said, they are in the business of making money. James R Hoffa 11:18 am on Thursday, July 19, 2012 And documentaries made from the right-wing perspective on issues wouldn't make money? Wouldn't the ratings of Fox News definitely prove otherwise? So, just because Stone's biopics didn't cost hundreds of millions to produce and market, the studio was in fact willing to "risk alienating millions of potential ticket buyers by making an overtly political film?" While I agree that a company's primary purpose is to make money, it often appears that Hollywood does take on the risk of alienating audience members by making controversial and/or biased product. And in taking such risks when it comes to overtly political film making, Hollywood tends to lean to the left more often than the right. Paul Doro 11:21 am on Thursday, July 19, 2012 You can't really avoid politics in a biopic about Kennedy, Nixon, or Bush can you? An exception every once in a while does not change the fact that it's still all about the money. Biopics are often chasing awards and prestige and that can lead to more money. And right-wing documentaries are made and released all the time. Just last weekend one played in Houston and did very well. James R Hoffa 11:27 am on Thursday, July 19, 2012 "And right-wing documentaries are made and released all the time." Without going to the IMDb or other online resources, how many right-wing documentaries can you name that Hollywood funded a wide release of vs left-wing documentaries? Yeah, I rest my case! Paul Doro 11:28 am on Thursday, July 19, 2012 The studios really don't fund documentaries James. They are often picked up for distribution after they are made. James R Hoffa 11:35 am on Thursday, July 19, 2012 You're right, that's why I qualified my statement with "funded a wide release of," as documentarians typically don't fund their own wide releases - usually the studios do this. And the studios tend to take on the risk of wide distribution of left-wing perspective documentaries much more than they do right-wing perspective documentaries. Paul Doro 11:37 am on Thursday, July 19, 2012 Also very few documentaries receive anything close to a wide release. And the major studios are rarely involved with documentaries. James R Hoffa 11:44 am on Thursday, July 19, 2012 For theatrical releases, I agree. Moore is a very big exception though. However, every major studio has an art-house division for direct-to-video release and distribution of such fare. And one again, more left-wing product is consistently picked up than right-wing product for even the direct-to-video distribution. HBO Films is a perfect example of engaging in both the production and distribution of consistently left-wing biased product - even you must admit to this reality! Paul Doro 11:51 am on Thursday, July 19, 2012 And Moore's last three films were released by Overture and Lionsgate, not one of the major studios. And only Fahrenheit 9/11 received a wide release. The art house divisions are not really for direct-to-DVD movies. They are for Oscar bait and serious stuff more than anything. I think people probably see the bias they want to see in the films HBO makes. James R Hoffa 12:08 pm on Thursday, July 19, 2012 "And Moore's last three films were released by Overture and Lionsgate, not one of the major studios." You don't consider Lionsgate to be a major Hollywood player? They're publicly traded on the NYSE for heaven's sake! They have more quarterly output and revenue than is generated by MGM/UA! "The art house divisions are not really for direct-to-DVD movies." Really? And how many Fox Searchlight pictures received a theatrical release? The art-house divisions are where the studios tend to put the documentary product that they pick-up, isn't it? And how is a majority of the product that is released and distributed through the art-house divisions done exactly? I'll help you out here - direct-to-video. "They are for Oscar bait and serious stuff more than anything." You mean they're not all about making money? Many of those films are funded with government tax credits and art endowment grants. "I think people probably see the bias they want to see in the films HBO makes." Yeah, because it's totally not apparent. Game Change (2012) was 100% historically accurate and provided an accurate depiction of the people portrayed in the film, right? But isn't there a problem when the actual people who are portrayed in the film come out and say that the film is little more than a politically biased hit job that totally distorts the truth of what really happened? Come on! Paul Doro 12:13 pm on Thursday, July 19, 2012 Almost all Fox Searchlight movies receive a theatrical release, just not a wide one. Again, the art house divisions are for awards fare and prestige films far more than they are for direct-to-DVD movies. Lionsgate is a major Hollywood player, sure, now more than they were back when they released Moore movies. They're not Paramount or Universal though. James R Hoffa 12:47 pm on Thursday, July 19, 2012 So Hollywood makes bank on limited non-wide theatrical engagements? If it wasn't for the tax credits and art endowment grants to make many of those films, wouldn't many of them have produced actual losses for the producers and studios distributing them? When Lionsgate merged with Trimark Pictures, their combined rental and home video distribution system became far better than anything that either Viacom (Paramount) or MCA Universal has in such regard. Keith Schmitz 6:25 am on Friday, July 20, 2012 That's because Jimmy the FOX audience aged 65+ cannot get out of their Lazy Boys, hop on their rascals and motor down to the multiplex, where they may have to tolerate being in the presence of a multicultural audience. Greg 11:42 am on Thursday, July 19, 2012 Paul, If I could give you an award for this blog, I would call it The Hoover Award, because you are the biggest sucker. (I don't say that in a mean way) Rush Limbaugh, just like the movie studios, is in it for the money. He is an entertainer, he presents his opinion. If your head was not nodding so hard to Ed Schultz's babble, you would see he is just an entertainer. Bill Mahr, entertainer. Keith Olbermann, entertainer. Mark Behling, entertainer. They are all in it for the "green". Limbaugh and Belling would tell you that Obama is great for their ratings and bottom line. Schultz and Maddow may say the same thing about Walker or Romney, it's for the money. Ed does not take home an average UAW wage, these people are part of the 1%. Every one of them will use the same tax loopholes that the big corporations and CEOs use. Much of the stuff that Olbermann and Schultz spew is based less on fact than entertainment value. Get some pop corn, sit back and enjoy the show. Paul Doro 11:46 am on Thursday, July 19, 2012 Don't watch Schultz or MSNBC, or Olbermann. So is the sucker actually the one making assumptions without really knowing what they speak of? I used Limbaugh to make broader points about Hollywood and accusations of liberal propaganda in film. Of course Rush is an entertainer in it for the money. That is stating the obvious. Greg 12:07 pm on Thursday, July 19, 2012 "Don't watch Schultz or MSNBC, or Olbermann." Maybe you should, so you would have a more rounded view for your next blog. Otherwise "So is the sucker actually the one making assumptions without really knowing what they speak of?", is nothing more than a commentary on yourself. Paul Doro 12:14 pm on Thursday, July 19, 2012 How would watching more MSNBC have influenced a blog about liberal propaganda in Hollywood movies? CowDung 12:22 pm on Thursday, July 19, 2012 To add more fuel for the conspiracy, the film's producer, Thomas Tull is a minority owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers. We all know that Steeler chairman emeritus (Dan Rooney) was appointed by Obama as ambassador to Ireland. Obvious left wing connection if you ask me... J. B. Schmidt 12:23 pm on Thursday, July 19, 2012 @Paul I believe Rush would call this a media tweak and fell face first into it. Keith Schmitz 6:27 am on Friday, July 20, 2012 One would think Rush is an expert at falling face first into things, since the drug addled gas bag probably does that very thing hours after his shift on the Obesity in Broadcasting Network. Chris Larsen 1:12 pm on Thursday, July 19, 2012 As a conservative, I feel that Rush Limbaugh is an idiot. To me the only RUSH is the band! Bren 1:28 pm on Thursday, July 19, 2012 @Greg's right. Rush Limbaugh is an entertainer, one of the first of the "shock jocks." My father, a Goldwater-era Republican, doesn't listen to Rush Limbaugh. While some of these polititainment shows are interesting, they are no substitute for independent research and should serve as a starting point for that research rather than oracles. There are many Batman movies and I have seen very few of them. I'll confess I enjoy movies for entertainment value, but real life is far more exciting! James R Hoffa 2:17 pm on Thursday, July 19, 2012 Personally, Hoffa prefers the Tim Burton Batman films staring Michael Keaton in the headline role to the Christopher Nolan Dark Knight series of films. As far as radio pundits go, there is no comparison to the great Michael Savage! Heather Asiyanbi 4:59 pm on Thursday, July 19, 2012 @Hoffa. UGH - really? The Burton films? Oy. No way. The Nolan trilogy (I assume since TDKR isn't officially released yet) far surpass the Keaton franchise when it comes to writing, set design, directing, villains (Ledger's Joker is legend for good reason), and acting. Burton's set reminds me of cheesy B-movies in comparison. James R Hoffa 5:36 pm on Thursday, July 19, 2012 @Heather A - I think I told you my fondness for the Burton/Keaton Batman films once before, on FB, and you had the same reaction :-) How can Batman get any better than Burton directing, Keaton as Batman, Nicholson as the Joker, Michael Gough as Alfred, the best Batmobile ever to grace the screen, and a soundtrack from Prince?!?! That film inspired a ride at Six Flags for heaven's sakes, and the sequel a live stage show at the theme park! OK, I admit I love B-movies and am biased to the '80's/'90's nostalgia factor! Not to mention that I find it hard to embrace most of the new / young blood acting talent, although Bale's not bad. I also prefer Roger Corman's unreleased 1994 version of the 'Fantastic Four' to the Hollywood films! James R Hoffa 5:40 pm on Thursday, July 19, 2012 BTW - The Schumacher films were absolutely HORRID stinkers not worthy of the franchise!!! Heather Asiyanbi 6:20 pm on Thursday, July 19, 2012 @Hoffa - *smacks my forehead* I should have remembered your fondness for B-movies & just handed you the popcorn! BTW - we haven't had a blog in quite some time from you! Keith Schmitz 6:30 am on Friday, July 20, 2012 Hard to weight them Jimmy. Though the Nicholson/Burton pairing seemed good on paper, they were essentially cartons. The latest pack is grim and excessive. How many times can Bruce Wayne get wiped out? James R Hoffa 11:01 am on Friday, July 20, 2012 @Schmitzy - That's funny - I would have figured you for a George Clooney as Batman fan! Come on - Burton also benefited from Danny Elfman's score and original music from Prince which is far more iconic and 'Batman like' than Hans Zimmers work and any of the songs used in the Dark Knight series. Just compare these two scenes and you'll see there's no comparison: Now, let's compare the stats on Batman: The Ride vs The Dark Knight Coaster: Batman: The Ride Height 105 ft Length 2,694 ft Speed 50 mph Inversions 5 Duration 2:00 The Dark Knight Coaster: Height 45 ft Length 1,213 ft Speed 30 mph Inversions 0 Duration 2:00 See, even Six Flags recognizes that Burton and Keaton own Nolan and Bale! Case closed ;-) James R Hoffa 11:14 am on Friday, July 20, 2012 I hope that we can all agree that the worse thing to happen in the Batman universe was the Halle Berry stinker Catwoman (2004) - now there's a pos that should be erased from history by the film gods! Yes, it was even worse than the George Clooney / Schumacher film Batman & Robin (1997). Dirk Gutzmiller 9:55 am on Friday, July 20, 2012 Gee, where are all the right-wing commenters this morning? Has something happened? CowDung 10:22 am on Friday, July 20, 2012 Where are the 'right-wing commenters' all supposed to be this morning? Phil 10:32 am on Friday, July 20, 2012 The 'right-wing commentators' are all at work making money and paying taxes for all those 'liberal-takers'. Dirk Gutzmiller 11:08 am on Friday, July 20, 2012 Harry - Playing on the internet at work again? DICK STEINBERG 5:42 pm on Friday, July 20, 2012 Movies are part of the American culture but there is no federal mandate to go or not to go to the movies. that was tried once by the Harris Commission. former WI Senator Joe McCarthy was out to destroy the reputations of every person he thought was a real communist. both the censorship commissions and McCarthy failed. This is not my kind of entertainment so go see it and pay the piper. Paul Ruble 7:00 pm on Monday, July 23, 2012 I see that this author does not get sarcasm.

! "Paul Morphy and the Evolution of Chess Theory"- discussion « Back to club forum From coopershawk 15-May-09, 12:36 "Paul Morphy and the Evolution of Chess Theory"- discussion I am starting this thread for a discussion of this book by Macon Shibut. Several people have indicated an interest and have the book. My copy arrived today, and I will begin reading tonight. -zoe- 15-May-09, 14:23 enjoy! I don't have this book, but looking forward to read discussion.. and add a post or two johnclark 15-May-09, 20:35 It's on the way. I ordered a copy from Amazon.com a couple of days ago. Will let you know when arrives. coopershawk 15-May-09, 23:31 Zoe Since you don't have the book, I will try to identify the game that we are discussing as we go along, so you and others without the book can follow any discussion about the games and participate. The first game is: Morphy v de Riviere Paris 1863 Game #361 in this collection that can be played on line. and the first of at least two Morphy v de Riviere 1863 games in the downloadable png collection at the bottom of the page in this link. Unfortunately there is no easy way to go to the correct game in either collection. This is identifiable by the last move -- 64.c8 ironbutterfly 16-May-09, 09:32 Reading and studying "PM and the Evolution of CT" My strong preference is to work through the book systematically from the beginning. That would mean focusing our first discussion on the "Introduction" (pp.3-4) and the first chapter of "Part I: Analysis," which is "Paul Morphy and the Play of Our Time." (7-33). As James states above, the first game considered - and extensively analyzed - (9-15) is "Morphy-de Riviere." The second is "M-Lowenthal" [London, 1859], (16-25), and the third is "Lichtenhein-M" [New York 1857] (27-29). There follows a 5-pp supplement with commentaries and games of other players. So I'm suggesting we all read pp. 3-15, and discuss the ideas/concepts there and then the game analysis of M-dR. What do you all think of this general plan? Are there other suggestions for how to proceed? coopershawk 16-May-09, 15:57 A Plan Clark, That plan works for me. I think we should go slow for another day or two until some people who have ordered the book receive it. But I don't see any reason not be begin now. I will post something late tomorrow. johnclark 16-May-09, 20:24 PM and the Evolution of Chess Theory- Shibut Ironbutterfly's plan works for me. We may need to change some things as we go, but it seems very doable. I received my copy for Amazon.com today. I think I placed the order 3-4 days ago, no sales tax and no shipping costs. My copy is new and the total charge was $12.12. And I thought McDonalds was the one with deals. Listed price on the book is $16.95. I think someone cut a deal. I'm not sure how we are going to approach the actual discussion of pp 3-15, but I guess our style will evolve through the chapters. First of all, I am not a fan of Shibut's writing. Of course, I'm not a fan of Fenimore Coopers ("Last of the Mohicans"), either. Fo me, I have difficulty grasping what he's saying on first read and inevitably I comment, "what in the hell is saying." And I end up having to re-reading his paragraphs. The other criticism I have, and maybe you folks do too, is his use of abreviated notations. That drives me crazy. I like to see the little "x" for captures and the "+" for check. Anyway, I'll have to work through those issues. I wouldn't say that Shibut's intent is to bash Paul Morphy, but it is quite evident he wants to "clear up" some Morphy myths and correct the reader's perspective. Anyway that's my take on the intro. I played through Morphy v de Riviere, Paris 1863. Here's a link to the game It makes it a lot easier than manually making the moves, especially with his abbreviated notations ( I don't think anyone would have a problem with the statement that this game is clearly not a "best" for either player. I assume that it was not a blitz type game and the clock was not a factor. The game occurred during the Civil War, and to what extent that Paul's interest in the game was wanning, I don't know. But I don't think we can expect a masterpiece each time the master goes to his canvas or picks up his pen. I'm looking to see further arguements by Shibut on this. On the game, itself, I was distracted by the Morphy "reknown" and was doing exactly what Shibut warned not to do. It will take a while for me to separate the "man form the position". But I did find something interesting- On 55. Qf7+ , would not 55.Qh7+ have netted de Riviere's bishop h1 for Morphy?? Anyway, these are my initial reactions. There is no way I'm going to talk this lengthy on next posts. Looking forward to see what others have to say. jc coopershawk 17-May-09, 23:03 9. h3 This move interested me so I spent a fair amount of time with it and Shibut's variations on 9. I usually think of this as a wasted move and don't do it because it weakens the pawns in front of the location where I am likely to castle. But as Shibut says, it seems to work in this game, and it demonstrates that we can't play chess successfully by blindly following a set of theoretical tips. One of the great things about the game is the constantly shifting blend between tactical and strategic considerations. I played through the whole game once quickly, and now I am studying it more carefully. JohnClark, I think the move you are referring to is 56. Qf7+ not 55. 56.Qh7+ would win the Bishop, but it loses the pawn on g3 with check. Morphy might have considered that pawn and the tempo more important than the bishop in this circumstance. My guess is that Morphy liked his chances to win better by not giving up the initiative. I will look at it more closely when I get that far in the game. And yes, the highly abbreviated notation is more difficult than it needs to be. OFF TOPIC: John, have you read Mark Twain's essay criticizing Cooper? It is incredibly funny. johnclark 18-May-09, 14:38 56.Qf7+ It's probably true about keeping the initiative that PM opted for, but he takes a check with 58...Qe1+ *. I more inclined to think PM want to push his g pawn. Here's a probable position had PM opted for de Riviere's bishop: 56.Qh7+ Ka6 57.Qxh1 Qxb3+ 58.Kg4 I would have been very tempted to snatch balck's bishop. coopershawk 18-May-09, 20:57 Through 26. Ng1 Worked through Through 26. Ng1 tonight. A few comments. There were a couple of moves by Morphy that left me puzzled until later when a purpose became apparent. For example: 10. Nde2 I was thinking 10.Nf3. But then after seeing his move, I understood that Morphy did not want to block the advance of the f pawn on his next move. 11.f4. 21.Nge2 This move was very counterintuitive for me. I wanted to bring more pieces closer to the King for his defense, instead of moving pieces away, and exposing him to an attack that appeared to be imminent. Then later I saw that because of 21. Nge2, white was able to play 24. g3 and drive the black Queen all the way back to her first rank, taking much of the steam out of Black's attack. Be sure to go over Shibut's analysis of move 26 and the tactical manuever available if White moves 26.Nd5 and Black tries to take the pawn with Rxe6. As I read the notes, it occurs to me that Shibut is primarily critical of the prior analysis of Soltis and the venerable Reinfeld. So far, more often than not, Shibut is defending Murphy against critical comments made in their prior analysis. ironbutterfly 19-May-09, 11:54 Macon Shibut (whoever he is) and PM Well, I just finished working through the first 16 pages of Shibut's book, inc. the M-dR game. Here are some of my thoughts: 1. I never heard of Shibut before getting this book. Normally a chess writer's ranking and exploits are trumpeted in his book, but not here. So I googled him, and here's some of what I found - a NM (National Master), which means that he acheived the USCF rating of 2200, even if he later fell below it. Good for a chess player, only ok for a chess writer. He is also 2-time VA state champion and since '91 the editor of the VA Chess Newsletter. (A friend of mine who is a GM told me once - for whatever it's worth -never to bother reading the analyses of anyone below GM.) 2. Like jc, I have trouble with his style. I'm not bothered by his leaving out the x for capture, it's the fact his language and style seems antiquated. I would have guessed the book was written 75 years ago, not 15+. Definitely not smooth and easy to read, at least for me. [As an aside, Cooper's style is heavy and ponderous too, but he wrote almost 200 years ago. Twain's essay on Cooper's Literary Offences [thanks for bringing that up, cj!!] is the funniest and one of the most brilliant literary criticisms I've ever read - it's one I still read occasionally and chuckle over - but he basically misses the point: Twain is a realist analyzing a romanticist; Cooper isn't at all interested in the factual kind of truth Twain is, but what he sees as a much deeper spiritual truth. But that's probably more fit for another thread... ] 3. Interesting discussion between jc and cj about taking/not taking the B. I would probably take it myself, but am not at all sure it's the best move, since it gives the opposing Q so much room, and possiblities for perpetual, etc. I also agree with you, james, about PM's h3 causing me to think a long time about how that strengthens or weakens the position. I probably do it too often, according to master play. 4. As usual, Alekhine's comments are spot on. I particularly like "he clearly pictured to himself in each separate instance just what the given position required..." That's a concept I've been trying to understand for years, and don't really yet. coopershawk 19-May-09, 20:21 Finished game. Read to p.16 comments I enjoyed the game and annotation. I don't have a complaint about Shibut's use of language- just a difference of perspective I guess. Couple of comments as a result of Chess Master 9000's analysis. a. CM has black leading by small fractions of a pawn until 46.Bh1. At that point it gives white an advantage and that advantage is steadily increased through the rest of the game. b. CM likes Black's moves at 40 and 41. Shibut gives both moves question marks. c. CM agrees with Shibut's criticism of PM's move 26.Ng1. To my mind, this was a good complex game in which PM took advantage of small positional errors by black. Those errors cummulatively led to a win in the end game. Ironbutterfly, Your GM friend is speaking from the perspective of a player much better than us. IMO Woodpushers like all of us here can learn a lot from an NM commenting on a Morphy game. Fred Reinfeld, who taught a generation of club players was not a GM, and neither is Silman, who I think of as Reinfeld's contemporary counterpart, but both are good teachers. I would not say Mr. Shibut is comparable to either Reinfeld or Silman as a teacher, but that is not really the avowed purpose of his book, so I am not critical of him on that basis. On the subject of move 56-- after playing through the game more carefully, I think it likely that Morphy did not overlook the opportunity to capture the Bishop. I suspect that he decided on the spot that he was going to be able to queen the g pawn and didn't need to waste time taking the Bishop on h1. It's interesting that in this game black's light square bishop had control of the long diagonal, a theoretically excellent strategic position; but the bishop was ultimately irrelevant to the outcome. In my experience there is a big difference between a bishop on h1 or a8 and a bishop on g2 or b7. The reduced mobility of the bishop on h1 or a8 looks like a small thing, but in practice it seems to make a big difference. The same is true for dark squared bishop on the other diagonal of course. Comments? coopershawk 22-May-09, 20:24 pp. 16-19 Played through the Lowenthal game to the end, and then spent additional times with moves 1 through 16. I like to play the Evans Gambit occasionally, and I need work on my end game. So this is a good game for me to study. Shibut questions Morphy's moves 10 and 13. Chessmaster likes Shibut's choices better, but only by a very small margin, so small that the margin might go away or be reversed if I let the computer think about it longer. In any event this is another complex game that I am enjoying. johnclark 23-May-09, 19:53 Been tied up I haven't forgotten the thread. Will play through the second game and get a comment in. coopershawk 23-May-09, 21:08 pp 19-23 Moves 16 to 32. To me the tactical sophistication of these players is awesome. I get a different insight into the depth of their understanding when playing through the game on the computer program such as Chessmaster. Sometimes after CM thinks about a move for 60 seconds and it evaluates a move not played by Morphy or Lowenthal as then best by some small factor: BUT if you let the computer program continue to run for another 15 minutes, or maybe even an hour, CM may switch its evaluation and prefer the move actually played by Morphy or Lowenthal. Some of the middle game moves either make or defend threats that I would never see, so the motive for the move is hard to understand. That makes it a difficult game to analyze, even with help from CM and Shibut's variations. coopershawk 23-May-09, 21:10 John and others Take your time. There is no point in speeding through this material, and I am planning to go through it slowly. johnclark 03-Aug-09, 22:22 cascadejames is back! It's time to pick up game #2. I just noticed that Shibut does not include the famous "Queen Sacrifice game (Paulsen v Morphy, November 3, 1857, game 6, First American Chess Congress, New York City). coopershawk 04-Aug-09, 21:29 pp 23-33 Enjoyed this material. Especially the annotation by Reti and the author's comments. I don't have much to add to it. Went lightly through 31-33, since they are non-Morphy games. I will take the author's point that there were other good chess players with similar ideas. Ready to begin Anderssen-Morphy Paris 1858 p.34 next. johnclark 04-Aug-09, 23:02 Can we go back to Lichtenhein-Morphy, NYC 1857? Asking your indulgence, I would like to take a look at pp. 26-30. On a side note, I think this game was played at the First American Chess Congress, NYC 1857. Personally, I think the Congress was pivotal for Morphy's ascending onto the international stage. Granted, he was the favorite coming into the tournament. But his winning the tourney cast aside any doubts that he was other than a world class player. Secondly, and much more to our initial interest, pp. 26-30 sumarize Richard Reti's views on Morphy's reknowned development of his pieces with some critical comments by the author. So I was wondering if we could take a look at the game, Shibut's summary of Reti's insights and Shibut's commentary? We might want to tackle "Reti's Logic Applied to Another Game", pp. 30-33. I'll post my reation in a day or so. Thanks, jc coopershawk 05-Aug-09, 08:58 John Sure I am in no hurry. johnclark 07-Aug-09, 00:43 pp 26-30 I found pages 26-30 intriguing for both the content and his thesis. As you know, these pages, and the ones that follow deal with tempo. Shibut calls to the readers attention via Richard Reti's words Morphy's superiority over his contemporaries in his undertanding of "open positions" and the need for developing pieces without delay. Shibut uses Reti's example of The Evan's Gambit to illustrate the differences in "pre-Morphy" development and Morphy's development, which we now see as natural (p26). I thought the illustration was very clear and pertinent. Shibut then examines Lichtenhein v Morphy, New York 1857 (I think this was an actual tournament game at the First American Chess Congress as Morphy did meet Lichtenhein in the third section of the tournament) and discusses it in the perspective of development and tempo. I thought the discussion was well done. It includes a superior line to the Two Knights Defense/Max Lange Attack now found in the Scotch Gambit variation of the opening (p.27; white's 5th move). In the analysis, Shibult points out several times how Morphy never lost tempo in the development of his pieces where Lichtenhein did several times. Now all this is good and well. And then Shibult drops his thesis gavel pronouncing that development was very well known prior to Morphy and Morphy's acclaim to development and the use of tempo is a "sort of blind idealism" that the next two chapters will attempt to set aside AND will reexamin Morphy's chess vis-a-vis that of Adolph Anderssen and Wilhelm Steinitz! That's when I practically fell out of my chair. Our author is attempting to correct the Morphy idealism on the backs of Anderssen who lost 8-3 in 1858 to Morphy and Steinitz who never played Morphy, but barely beat Anderssen in 1866. So you can see my skepticism and what I will be watchful for. On content -"Rapid development in the open game". I never quite undestood open v closed games. is an excellent article on the two. Rule of thumb, open games/positions are usually 1.e4 e5 openings whose lines do not obstruct bishops. Queens pawns openings that obstruct bishop movement fall into the closed category. Now I get it. -Just because a line of play has an established name, does not mean it's the better play. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.e5 loses to 5.0-0! Excellent little paragraph. -The analysis on tempo through the first 14 moves of the game is very good. Well, these are my thoughts on these pages. What do you guys think? Am I totally off? Will go forward with Reti's Logic Applied to Another Game and the Anderssen and Pre-Morphy Chess. ironbutterfly 08-Aug-09, 12:29 Shibut's book: pp. 23-33 First, I'd like to elaborate on what jc suggests in his comments above. On p. 26 Shibut says: "our modern understanding of Morphy's style derives from what Reti wrote in Modern Ideas in Chess and Masters of the Chessboard." I haven't found my copy of MIC, but Reti spends 20 pp. in MotC arguing the point about M being "the first great player to understand the nature and characteristics of the open positions and to elaborate adequate principles for their treatment." (27) Reti analyzes six of M's game in some detail to illustrate these points. Shibut's conclusion is that: "Reti decided that Morphy's 'secret' lay in a breakthrough appreciation for rapid development in the open game." Second, don't miss the fact (I did the first time around) that the material on the Lichenhein-Morphy game [NY, 1857] on pp. 27-29 is RETI's analysis, not Shibut's! Though Shibut does, inexplicably add "in pace" to the next to last paragraph on p. 27, and omits a couple of capture signs. Third, it seems to me that Shibut is guilty of just what he accuses Reti of - generalizing. Like jc, I am skeptical of some of Shibut's judgmental conclusions: he doesn't convince me that Reti and Saidy and Heisman are mistaken in their "blind idealism" in suggesting that PM advanced and focused principles of developing open positions, for example. What more are you guys thinking about this section? coopershawk 08-Aug-09, 22:59 ?? I am not so interested in focusing on the book's author, but in any event, I have to drop off again here because of issues at work. johnclark 11-Aug-09, 08:40 Bummer! Sorry to see you go, cascadejames. You bring a lot of energy to the club. I'll plug on through the Supplement to Chapt 1 and the Anderssen chapter. Hope you return soon. Ironbutterfly: Good point on the Reti analysis! I missed it! Had it been set aside in quotation marks, I might have picked it up. And then again, I may have still needed a slap or two to see it ) coopershawk 28-Nov-09, 23:05 Anderssen-Morphy Paris 1858 10th Match Game pp 41-52 A marathon win for Anderssen, 77 moves. Part of a match. Material was nominally even at the end of the game, but Morphy resigns after a pawn promotion for Anderssen becomes inevitable. Fascinating game, Anderssen opens with 1. a3 and plays the game as a reverse Sicilian. Anderssen controls the center and the game is initially very clogged up. Morphy never seems to have enough space to operate, even into the end game. coopershawk 29-Nov-09, 20:27 Morphy-Anderssen Paris 1858 informal game pp 61-63 Kings Gambit in which black (Anderssen) attempts to defend his extra pawn on f4, and gets beatrn badly by Morphy in 19 moves. Interesting notes from Shibut, and a reference to a 1961 Bobby Fisher article titled "A bust of the King's Gambit." Both are very different games than our consultation game with the same opening, but they both shed some light. « Back to club forum GameKnot: play chess online, chess clubs, Internet chess league, monthly chess tournaments, chess teams, online chess puzzles, free online chess games database and more. • • Rules and Policies © 2000-2013 GameKnot online chess

Michael Vick Threw Four Picks, But There Could Have Been MoreBREAKING NEWS, Eagles, News, Quarterbacks Monday, September 10th, 2012 This was a frightening performance by Eagles quarterback Michael Vick and it makes you question his development as a quarterback. Vick was making rookie mistakes like throwing the ball across the field, staring down receivers and making foolish and careless throws with the game on the line. #1 – The first of the interceptions occurred when he was rolling to his left and under pressure from the pass rush. He tried to complete a pass to tight end Brent Celek, who was sitting in the middle of the field. When a quarterback is rolling to one side of the field, it draws the coverage to that side. This was another case of Vick trying to play Superman, when a moment or two as Clark Kent would have been better. Browns defensive end Emmanuel Stephens beat left tackle King Dunlap inside and forced Vick to abandon the pocket. I will talk about the pathetic play of the offensive line later on. Once he was forced out of the pocket, the quarterback should have started thinking about playing Clark Kent and abandoning the play by running out of bounds or throwing the ball away. He could have looked down that sideline to see if somebody was open, but no he still insists on playing Superman all the time, so he put on his cape. I know Vick has a strong arm, but he broke a quarterback fundamental that is taught to ten-year old Pop Warner quarterbacks. Don’t throw the football across your body and across the field. Vick was attempting to throw the football back to his right by throwing it across his body without setting his feet. He got nothing on the throw. Celek could have helped him by coming back to the football, but he waited for it, “patting his glove”, which is a mistake by any receiver. You always go get the football when it’s in the air because it lessens the opportunity for the defense to cut in front of you and pick it off. Browns linebacker Craig Robertson took advantage of the situation came in from the other side to pick off the pass. It was an easy pick because Vick couldn’t get anything on the throw, so it was hanging up there and saying catch me. The quarterback is only supposed to throw the football to that side or if his arm is strong enough, he can throw the ball over the coverage deep to the other side, if he can set his feet and follow through. That kind of throw is rare. He should never throw the football across his body and across the field because he can’t get very much steam on it and it is sure to be picked off. For the most part, the quarterback needs to look downfield to the side of the field in which he is rolling and throw the ball in that direction, short or deep. A quarterback is never supposed to throw the football to the short area in the middle of the field. It’s just like the rule in basketball where you never throw a cross court pass because it gives every defensive player a chance to intercept it. #2 – On the second interception, the offensive line did a great job of protecting for their quarterback. Vick dropped deep into the pocket after faking a hand off to LeSean McCoy. He had plenty of time to see the entire field. Usually on these deep drops, Vick is looking downfield to DeSean Jackson or Jeremy Maclin. He spotted tight end Clay Harbor and decided he was going to go to him. The throw was intended for Harbor who was open for an instant, but Vick was staring at him and taking his time getting him the football. The Browns were in a zone coverage and middle linebacker D’Quell Jackson was in the middle of the field, but started moving to his right as he followed Vick’s eyes. Jackson should have picked the ball off, but it went through his hands and was picked off by Cleveland outside linebacker L.J. Fort. Cleveland safety T.J. Ward was standing right behind Harbor and draped over him when the ball arrived. The throw had no chance of making it to Harbor. #3 – On the next interception, Vick tried to hit Maclin on a crossing from the right side of the formation to the left. This was the one interception which wasn’t Vick’s fault. He put the throw on Maclin’s hands as he got to the left side of the formation. Maclin had a tough time yesterday. He was hit a number of times after making some tough catches. The young wide receiver was in and out of the lineup because of physical problems during the game. I think an earlier hit on a crossing route, influenced Maclin to peak downfield just before Vick put the ball in the air. The wideout put his hands out as the ball came his way, but his focus was totally on the football and that’s what caused him to let the ball hit off his hands and into the hands of Browns cornerback Joe Haden. I have to give Vick credit for not giving up on the play because he hustled downfield and stopped Haden from taking the ball into the end zone. #4 – On his final interception of the day, Vick dropped into the pocket and followed Jeremy Maclin from his outside alignment on the Birds right side. Number 18 was running an inside curl route versus a simple strong-zone defense. His eyes were straight down the field during the entire play. The signal caller didn’t try to look any of the defenders off by looking to his left or his right. He was tunnel vision, looking straight down the middle of the field and attempting to connect with Maclin on the curl route. Maybe he thought he was invisible because Browns middle linebacker D’Qwell Jackson broke on the football when Vick let it go and cut in front of Maclin. The lefthanded quarterback lifted his arm and left go of the throw as if there was nobody in the area. Jackson simply reached up to pick off the pass and continued down the sideline. He showed off his speed while taking the ball in for a touchdown, while doing a forward full-body flip. #5 – Or course on the last drive of the game, Fort let a Vick pass go right through his hands on a throw Vick made which was intended for Maclin. If the young linebacker had caught the football, it would have cost the Eagles the game. Short URL: To me it seemed like Vick’s head was everywhere else but in this game yesterday. Towards the end he woke up a little but he is gonna get himself hurt out there if he plays like that against the Ravens Defense. btw I give all credit to the Eagles Defense who carried this team on its back yesterday. Wonder what the feeling would be if the Browns Defender held onto that bad Pass by Vick in the End-Zone the play before he threw the winning TD Pass to Harbor.. Game and Season would have been over.. Can you imagine that Paulman. It would have been a 16-10 5 interception loss. ANd that’s what it really should have been. I was on the phone to a guy in Cleveland after they took the lead, and he was all, “ah, we’ll still find a way to lose”. If we hadn’t been playing Cleveland, we wouldn’t have won. There were several other incidences when Vick threw the ball into heavy coverage. There were at least 2 balls batted down at the line. There were 2 fumbles. I mean seriously….4 ints, 2 fumbles, 2 batted…..what does this guy have to do before he gets benched? Vinnie – you are exactly what I thought you were…a catcher! bend over and just take it type of cat….you’re a grown ass man, on the phone with a man in Cleveland? and you are known for calling Rex Grossman “sexy Rexy”…Vinnie you are a limp wrist fraud…live your life by day as husband, family man…by night, on the phone with strange men from Cleveland… The announcers kept talking about how confused vick looked! it is a constant with him. i remember when jim johnson was the dc and vick was in atlanta that i was never worried about him because JJ would confuse him with blitz schemes. nothing has changed! in his last like 10 games he has thrown 22 td’s and 20 ints- he also put the ball on the ground yesterday- I’m also ready a lot of…”oh well he was rusty….” BS. In Atlanta “He’ll be a good QB when they get real Wrs” “He’ll be a good QB when they get a real coach” “He’ll be a good QB when they improve the oline” In Philly “He’ll be a good QB when they get a real Oline” “He’ll be a good QB when Reid changes the play-calling” “He’ll be a good QB when he has a full offseason to practice” And now….its because he missed the preseason games (interesting – same anti-Foles crowd who went on and on about how Foles only played in “meaningless” pre-season games are now bemoning the fact that Vick needed those same meaningless games) “He’ll be a good QB when he gets more reps under his belt” What will be next week’s excuse? And the week after that. I originally predicted that Foles would become the starter week 12. I’m moving that up to week 6 now. He couldn’t do worse. I disagree the 3rd INT was not on Vick – yes Maclin tipped it – but watch the play again if you can 1) good protection 2) Vick had happy feet and was dancing around 3) he was sliding forward and sidearmed it it out to Maclin and it sailed 4) instead of being delivered belt high in front – the pass was high and in front.. Not at all impressed with Vick yestruday - on the OLine – nice run blocking – should have run the ball more – good pass protection in the 2nd half – sometimes the other team sends more people then you can block – QB needs to exploit that.. on the good side – Vick did throw a couple into the sidelines! no excuses, Vick made some very poor decisions and got lucky to come away with the win…Vick did rise to the occasion and lead one of those 4th qtr drives to win the game…you know the kind, that many of you say he isn’t capable of doing…well he did! I’m disappointed with the decisions but happy with the win… We def need better play from MV7 week 2… Real cmon wake up Vick blows dude. Vinnie you must of love watching yesterday’s game…all but the end when Vick helped get the Birds in the end zone for a win… Everyone is overlooking the elephant in the room….and that is the play calling…I was watching the game with my sons….my 9 year old says, why we keep getting in the shot gun? when are we going to run the ball? came to the point where my 9 year old new that the Eagles were going to pass, pass, pass….there was nothing being done to keep Cleveland off balance…but what about the penalties? how many plays were brought back because of penalties…and i’m talking about plays 15+ yards…it was awful across the board…only thing that looked good was the defense! Agreed Navy. That throw was high and wide. Realtalk….You’re being pretty favourable saying that last drive was “rising to the occasion”. Vick went 6 of 12 on the final drive. At least 3 of his throws hit Cleveland defenders (the 2nd last throw being the diciest) and could have been picked, and he fumbled once. There were at least 4 occasions on that drive (the fumble and 3 into Browns defenders) when Vick tried his best to give the ball to the Browns, but they, being the Browns, didn’t want it. I can only imagine what you’d be saying on here if it was Kolb, or any other QB who had vomited up the 4 (5) INT, 2 fumble disaster that Vick orchestrated yesterday. Would you be saying he, “made some poor decisions”? Doubtful. You’d be calling for his assasination. umm did I say Vick played great? no…what in my comments make you think I’m giving Vick accolades for his performance…Since when does “what if’s” matter? what if Vick threw and INT on the final drive? did he? what if he loss the fumble? what if, what if, what if… Did anyone question Brady when he threw 4 picks in a loss to the Bills last season? nope… Brady also has won multiple SB’s, is arguably the best in the NFL & is a walk in HOF! Not even a comparison for discussion. Put the wet down. Real out of curiosity am I a hater or racist still because I can see this guy is awful and always has been? Real I could be wrong and tell me if I am but I thought I remember you telling me you were making 100k a year and had a great job? If that is correct I want to point out that you are very fortunate to have got that job when you don’t know that shotgun is one word not two, also you dont know the difference between new and knew. If you are someone different my apologies in advance @Mhenski @Vinnie I knew your stance on Vick before the game was even played yesterday…i’m sure you both enjoyed watching Vick struggle… you guys seem to have some insight on Vick and his performance…how did you like the play calling? was it good? how about the O Line? penalties? Eagles 1-0 last time I checked….that is what’s important @Mhenski – actually I make 90K and I’m 31, you’re 45, right? make less money right? and part of my money goes to you and your family for Wick assistance right? dumb ass! you still jealous I see… …and honestly we aren’t in grammar school, so get off my nuts Who calls 56 passes in the first game of the year and our tailback just had a Allpro year…oh wait..he was actually the best back in the league according to some?Walrus.Come on bro. I saw that coming in the second after they scored.Hes tossing it too much and the Browns are gonna get a few. End of the game he engineered a 4th quarter comeback.He didnt turn the ball over. He almost threw a pick.Harbor almost didnt catch the td pass.Guess what…he did. 1-0….stop wasting your time talking about Mike like hes some inept moron incapable of not improving. Big bad oldmen Balty coming to town without a DMVP….i like our defense against that offense and my guess is Mike is more effective. There o-line is old and worn out.Get after Ray Rice.DRC on Smith…advantage Birds…Boldin on Nmandi…Birds.Ray Rice could be tough. Negadelph Thankfully I missed the game for a Christening. I had thought that Fowles would take over on injury, but I wonder if another dreadful performance by Vick will accellerate things. Vick never seems to overcome his superman tendencies. Playing Baltimore should be very difficult unless we get a great QB play. enjoyed? thats idiotic, i had no joy watching this bum struggle it pained me because he is worse than i thought and remembered. i root for the eagles and vick im just real that the guy is a total loser. regarding the coaching absolutely dreadful, whoever was calling the plays and drew up the game-plan shouldnt be coaching in the nfl. after yesterday i am 10000% convinced that reid is just as awful as vick. going into the 4th quarter shady had 11 carries and vick had 40+passing attempts and we were winning basically the whole time, that is just totally idiotic. we have one of the best rbs in the god damn game… reid, vick and marty gotta go cant win with them. i watched vick a lot yesterday and all i saw him do is lock onto one wr and force the throw on almost everyplay. i did not see him go through his reads once, all i saw was lock onto the #1 option and if he didnt throw to the #1 option he just checked down and never looked at his true #2 option on the play. this tells me is awful and will continue to be. he is fortunate the eagles have playmakers that CAN make him look decent SOME GAMES. “Did anyone question Brady when he threw 4 picks in a loss to the Bills last season? nope…” Ummm…because Brady is a multiple Superbowl MVP winning Qb and gets the benefit of the doubt. Wheras Vick is a deteriorating never-was, sub .500 in the playoffs turnover machine. and therefor does not have the luxury of the benefit of the doubt. That’s why. I did not enjoy watching Vick struggle. I found it very infuriating (though predictable). I also found it extremely annoying that Reid kept trotting out there disasterous drive after disadterous drive. The Browns scored 16 pts yesterday, and Vick was directly responsible for every one of them. (oh, and to took my own worn, I wrote this on this site 2 days before the game: “Vick is a master at keeping both teams in the game. One big run followed by one big sack. I can easily see an early sack-fumble leaging to a Cleveland 3, then a VickPick for another 3 and Birds get out of the half 10-6…… Into the second…..and its some close 17-13 into the late 3rd. Vick will pull off some escapee Savardian spin-o-rama for 30yrds…..Leads to a TD. All the Vickpologists will say, “see – he’s amazing!! He won the game!!” Forgetting that Cleveland was only competitive due to his early foibles… Remember that this Cleveland team has a new owner. Everyone and his dog (pardon the pun) knows there will be wholesale changes next year at GM and every coaching position….along with players….this is dead team walking.” Am I happy that Vick is this predictable? No. Am I gloating that I predicted exactly what would happen – you’re going to interpret it as that – but I’m not. I hate that this team will go nowhere untill we have a competent QB behind centre. Vick was once a bad QB who could compensate with his legs…now that those are fading (and fast) he’s just a bad QB. Again Vinnie/Mhenski – we know you dont like Vick and we agree that Vick played very poor for a majority of the game yesterday… any thoughts, on the play calling? could that have helped out the QB? O Line? penalties? any thoughts, or are you only concerned with Vick play… in my opinion, there are more concerns on this offense than Vick, and it all starts with the play calling ! vin well said and very articulate! This site sucks. I see comments over in the recent comment area but when I try and go to the article to read them it is limited to a few comments and not the most recent. I have stopped coming on here because it has become so frustrating. Fix this thing G!!! 52% 4ints (could have been a lot more) 2 fumbles Against Cleveland. Keep defending. yea Vinnie thats right, I forgot we (Eagles) won 10 SB’s already because we had so many competent QB’s in the past…I totally forgot…. Vick’s legs are fading? where the hell do you get that from? He still looked fast as hell to me… Congrats Vinnie on your special day. Recognizing that Vick s a terrible QB isn’t a very sepecial feat Stevo. Ignoring reality and desperately remaining lached onto his nut sack with a litany of, “Hewasjustrustymissingrepsinthepreseasonwaittillnextweekitstheplaycallingthatmakeshimterrible” excuses. Well, that’s pretty special. As for your other points Real 1 – The playcalling needs work, Shady was having success and Vick was struggling and I don’t know why they kept throwing…but on the flip side…he’s the QB. He’s supposed to be able to throw the ball. I’ll echo what Navy said earlier. If you want the Eagles’ to run the ball 40x and have Vick only throw 20x because you don’t trust him. Then why is he the QB. 2 – You will suddenly see a dramatic improvement in the oline the moment Vick is replaced. You can count on that. Pockets collapse all the time. Its the nature of 300lb men charging forward. Vick doesn’t know how to deal with this…slide to the side or forward. Its not in his nature. 3 – You will also see a reduction in holding penalties when the Oline no longer has to block for the QB who is (and we’ve already shown thiis over and over) one of the slowest making decisions in the league. There are several problems with this O that need to be worked out, that’s for sure, but QB is absolutely the most important. ERock, I am pretty excited to see the D play next week against Balt. I am really concerned with him catching screens and dump-offs. Vick is still fast. OOOOOOOH!!!! That’s going to win us a SB now, isn’t it?!?!? My Take Clearly Vick played like crap. If this happens next week he needs to be benched. However, the first half was not his fault. In fact, the jelled together there at the end of the first half with a few really nice plays. The first half issues were 1…. Penalties. Every great play was called back because of holding. Hard to get pissed at Vick when he starts every drive with 1st and 20. 2. The Oline sucked. Flat out sucked. On top of the first half woes i really dont understand why the fat man wont run. I just dont get it. Thats the fun part Vinnie….. id love to see you show me ANYTIME ive ever said anything about how amazing he is. You are arguing with an Atlanta fan from 2001 im guessing because I never ever said anything like that. @DCAR hahaha – you are a funny cat… guess what…you never know, Vick may have to use his legs which will help us win a SB…and guess what….we’ve had QB’s that stand in the pocket and we haven’t won a SB yet, so shut the hell up! Glad, you get my sarcasm. ROFL!!!! This is something we need to get straight…my only wish for this season is that the Eagles win the SB…my wish doesn’t revolve on Vick completing 30 plus TD passes, Vick rushing for over 1000 yards…my wish is for the EAGLES to win a SB…I don’t care how they do it, or how they get it done! A SB is what I want it is that simple! Exactly Real. I dont own a Vick jersey, I never will. Why? because of who he has shown himself to be as a person. But i darn well will be rooting for him every week to do what he can do. Im not going to apologize for being a fan for my team. @DCAR and in response to your Brady/Vick comment… Brady hasn’t won a SB since 2004 and he needed a little help winning possibly all 3…we all know the Patriots and the cheating, plus he had some teammates that had a little to say in regards to winning a championship….Almost 10 years ago, so get off his nuts and again shut the hell up! Real, he’s won 3, 1 as a rookie, after being drafted in the 6th round, & has been to 5 SB’s. 5!!! Last year, he led his team to the SB, with one of the worst defenses, in the NFL. WTF, are you talking about. It’s sour grapes, with the cheating excuse. Cut it out man, you make yourself look clueless. I ain’t on anybodies nuts. I love the Eagles & hate the Patriots, but I can respect a REAL, great, leader at QB, & not the dumb @$$ fraud, we currently have, making a futile attempt to do the same. here’s a fascinating thing: The only two times Sunday that Vick looked comfortable, the only two times he got into a rhythm, were at the end of the two halves. Drove the Eagles 74 yards in just 32 seconds for a touchdown in the closing seconds of the second quarter, then put together that game-winning 16-play, 91-yard drive in the closing moments of the game. Think about what happens at the end of a half. Things speed up. Everything moves faster. The plays come in quicker, the ball is spotted quicker, the huddle breaks quicker. There’s little time to think. Just call the play, drop back and fire. And that’s when Vick excelled Sunday. That’s what Vick needs to get back to all the time. Call the play, break the huddle, take the snap, drop back and fire for 60 minutes instead of four or five minutes. Find that two-minute drill rhythm early and keep it. Stop over-thinking everything Real not knowing the difference between new and knew isn’t grammar bud it’s spelling and it demonstrates your a fucking idiot just 1 of the many examples. Not knowing the difference between grammar and spelling is another definition of how much of a fucking mental midget you are too. Damn you got my nuts all in your mouth and all on your chin, bitch! so maybe you got better spelling grades than I did, maybe did better in English class…but I love how my 90K salary is pissing you off! you jealous bastard! Like I said, if we were face to face, I’d whoop your ass all through the city of brotherly, while making you say Vick is the best QB in the league! Alot of you clowns talk big shit over the internet! That being said…. Im fine if Foles comes in sooner than later. I want a ring, dont care who gives it to us. Great blog I thought id share So Rizzo had his shot to try to talk us all down off a ledge and make us appreciate getting the W over anything else, but that’s all horseshit. The Eagles’ offense didn’t simply play poorly yesterday, they straight-up made a fool out of all of us. Andy Reid and Marty Mornhinweg told us all off-season (and every year for the past 5 years) that they wouldn’t do this again…then went right ahead and did it! We’re like battered wives who keep getting talked into coming back home. “It’ll be different from now on baby I swear.” Then what did we do? We just put the frozen steak on our black eye and walked back into the house without calling the cops. Well win or loss I’m fucking sick of it. FIFTY-SIX CALLED PASSES my dude? FOUR (should have been FIVE) interceptions? Motherfuck you both. The simple fact that Fat Andy had the stones to call 56 passes when his All-Pro best-player-on-the-team was ripping off 10 yard chunks every time he touched the rock should be a fire-able offense. Just consider the very BASIC and COMMON-SENSE reasons why the Eagles should have run more: LeSean McCoy was averaging 5.5 yards per carry. Michael Vick is a fragile figurine made of glass and Super Bowl predictions. Michael Vick had thrown multiple interceptions already. We had the lead. Our offensive line was getting called for holding every other play. The Browns D was 30th against the run and 2nd against the pass. Joe Haden. Maclin already got injured twice in the game. LESEAN MCCOY WAS AVERAGING 5.5 YARDS PER CARRY. I can’t think of another coach in the league who would even dream of having the boulders to keep daring his quarterback to throw another pick/get assassinated by a much improved Cleveland D. It literally makes zero sense. And what did that fat fuck say was his reason for passing the ball 56 times with an injury-prone quarterback, the lead, AND a Pro-Bowl RB at his disposal: .” This dude must’ve gotten higher than any of his children ever have to say some audacious nonsense like that. Shady had one fumble, dog. One. Vick was picked off four times. What fat idiot backwards-reasoning Mormon God planet are you living on, Andy? And Mike — keep freaking out in the pocket, scrambling like a decapitated chicken, then throwing it across your body into double coverage. We all can’t get enough of that shit. I mean, who wants to see their quarterback actually READ the coverage, step up in the pocket, and make a confident throw downfield? Not us. We just love seeing you play shitty jazz when everybody else is playing classical they’re reading from sheet music. No matter what any glass-half-full jokers want to feed you this week, stay true to yourself and remember how you felt watching the game. Doesn’t matter if we’re the #1 defense and #2 offense in the league. A win isn’t always just a win. Sometimes it’s proof that your local Philly Barstool blogger knows more about what’s better for the Eagles than the own coaching staff does. I predicted the offense would be the worry for this season more than the D, but never did I think our own head coach would call plays like he threw down $100 Large on the Browns. agreed all around mhenski. exactly. The Browns may have lost yesterday, but there is no doubt that Dick Jauron is still laughing about the errors that he was able to force the Birds to make. For all of the talk about Andy & Marty game planning for months, Jauron certainly had a plan for this offense, but the stubborness of the head coach and OC to stick with the pass and leave their All-Pro running back without the ball is something they cannot continue to do if they plan on winning many more games. If Vick & Reid are back next year I wonder what will be there reasoning for optimism and or their excuse for Vicks poor play this season. Oh wait I already know it will be – Vick didnt have a preseason to prepare for the season . TEAM WORK!!!!! Makes the dream work. Rich Hoffman Philly.com has a great article and perspective of the game. WOW did i just type that. umm hmm. But dang isn’t this a team sport? Everyone wants to focus on Vick so much, and yes he had a poor day, yes, he is the QB, but what stood out to me was the way this team BATTLED through a very tough opponent seated as the underdogs. Remember the phrase ANY GIVEN SUNDAY? that means that any given sunday you can get absolutely spanked in the NFL by any team, because this is the NFL. Yeah Vick had a horribly disgusting game, but Shaddy Mcoy, DRC, and Demeco Ryans, and Ashimogua had exceptional plays that carried this team and Vick to victory. Everybody wants to see Vick fail to prove thier points, and themselves right about this QB. EVEN YOU “G” say it aint so. But next Sunday when he bangs another 400 yards on that A#$ what will the headlines be? VICK SHINES BUT!!!!!!!!! anyway take ya head out of it. This eagles TEAM showed some toughness and RESOLVE yesterday. E.A.G.L.E.S @TheONe1 – good post! the one…. make no mistake this is a team game with the qb being the absolute most important position. 2. did i read a while ago that brady threw 4 ints and vick should be given the same consideration? yeah right. 3. the o line gets too much blame. 7 holds the ball with happy feet instead of getting rid of the ball… why? because he can’t read defenses! “Michael Vick is a fragile figurine made of glass and Super Bowl predictions.” Laughed my ass off on that one “scrambling like a decapitated chicken” Fantastic. “ Watched Peyton Manning last night and wept for the beauty of seeing a true pro play the game with his Mind and Body to throw off a good defense. If we don’t get a QB that knows the position (i think foles does…he is not manning dont twist this) we are screwed and wasting guys like 10,18,25,87…. Still laughing at real talk calling out vinnies manhood, on the phone with some other man from Cleveland, reminds me of the godfather telling that sap to man up and take care of your family ,hey vinnie, great analysis of Vick but seriously man up, get off the damn phone with some queer from Cleveland, take care if business at home

NAZI "BUDDHISTS" IN SRI LANKA FUCK OFF! and CHRISTIANS IN THE ZENDO! Here are some "Buddhists" who don't have a fucking clue what Buddhism is all about. This story just disgusts me to no end. I have no idea what the fuck is up with these so-called "Buddhists" in Sri Lanka. But I do not represent them and I want nothing at all to do with jack-offs like this. I hope they ban my books over there too. This kind of nonsense makes me embarrassed to call myself a "Buddhist." The Jathika Hela Urumaya (the hardline "Buddhist" ruling party in Sri Lanka) can bite me! More power to you Sarah Malini Perera. This shit makes me want to convert to Islam too! How's that for a typical Brad Warner style reasoned argument? ANYWAY, the 2010 Southern Dharma Retreat Center Zen retreat with Brad is now done. So let me tell you about it. I counted 18 or 19 brave souls up there in the mountains of North Carolina. As always this was a very interesting group. People come to Zen retreats for all kinds of reasons. One woman was a born-again Christian and missionary to Africa who wanted to check out this Zen stuff. One other woman was drafted in by her friend when her friend's daughter who'd originally signed up came down with strep throat. One guy went to Woodstock. One guy was a Rinzai priest (the enemy!). Someone asked about doing zazen retreats for the "wrong reasons" or something like that. But I don't think there are wrong reasons. If you just come along to experience three days of peace and quiet away from the job and the kids, that's just as valid as someone who's all gung-ho about The Great Way of the Buddha. Maybe more so. It was a bit of a hard retreat for me because I caught a cold on the first day. It was all I could do to just get through all the talks and stuff without keeling over. I felt a little bad about that. To make up for my lack of energy I read the group the intro to my new book, which takes place at the Southern Dharma Retreat Center. See, last year, just before that retreat I'd been dumped by a woman I was truly crazy about (perhaps literally so). And I was feeling pretty broke up the entire time. I figured that story would be a good intro to a book about sex and zen. The rest of the book is less personal than that. I guess that's kinda sad for all the anonymous commenters who got all worked up that the book was gonna be a big catalog of my sex life. Maybe next time. Did I mention I got recognized by random people while I was in Austin -- twice? No? It's true. The first one was a college student on Spring Break who turned around as we waited for a light to change and asked my name. I thought he was gonna try to sell me something! Turns out he's an avid reader of this blog! I'm sorry I've forgotten your name if you're reading this. But I forget names as fast as I learn them. The next was a guy at a CVS. This is getting spooky! (Hence the photo above)(It's a joke)(The star is for H.B. Warner, a popular star of the 30s now sadly forgotten) This weekend I'll be in Brooklyn at the Zen Center there running a retreat. There's still space available. All info is on this link here. Then I'll be at Sheppard College in West Virginia. The date is April 8th, but I don't have the other specifics yet. Then it's on to Baltimore and following that, Richmond, Virginia. So be there or be a Sri Lankan hardline "Buddhist!" (And this: Oh my God(zilla)!) 77 comments: Hello Suckahs! Wow No. 2 That's right.. The book is all about MY sex life :) Re: Daigan's comment -- Folks, it actually IS! As I previously commented about control. One meter. The rest doesn't matter. If Islam is so desperate as to accept s Perera as a convert, then all Buddhists throughout the world should be praying for their survival on an hourly schedule. From the story you linked to, Brad, her arrest appears to be due to some violation of Sri Lanka's export laws and/or postal regulations. Many countries, including many west European countries, have very strict laws governing the import and export of items for sale. It looks like she was trying to illegally ship books out of the country without paying some kind of tax or duty or some other fee, or otherwise trying to get around some regulation she thought she could get away with getting around. Nazism is serious business. Accusing people of Nazism should only be done for some good reason. For starters you should have some idea of what the fuck you are talking about. You can find more news about her if you use another spelling of her name: Sarah Malani Perera. Also, Sri Lanka is still emerging from a little thing called a Civil War -- which lasted for more than 25 years and which cost more than 80,000 lives. The people that the Sri Lankan government were fighting against were literally the inventors if suicide bombing as we know it. None of the news reports, including the one Brad linked to, give an official reason for her arrest. Therefore all claims that she was arrested "for offending Buddhism" are purely speculative. And screaming about NAZIS on the basis of such speculation is bullshit. Brad is using Nazi in the metaphorical sense of the word meaning "overly authoritarian." It is thus commonly used on the Left Coast. Of course the German National Socialists were talking socialism while being lap dogs to the corporatists. We have the anti-socialist party in America being the lap dogs of corporatists (e.g. the republican fascists). "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini In the UK. Blatant self-promotion corner: Hey kids (sorry about the suckahs thing, I couldn't bring myself to shout out #1 like a f-in loosah), I just updated my google profile with a new pic that should amaze even Mysterion (one meter, schmeter). Just click on my blue name and all will be revealed! Now, Alan, that's entertainment (if not attainment, schmattainment..:). I'm more interested in the Christian who attended the retreat...especially a "born again" Christian who was a missionary in Africa. That's pretty hardcore. Wonder what she was looking for? By the way, Brad...I always seem to miss you when you visit the Austin Zen Center!!! Maybe I'll run into you next year... john e mumbles, As a true lover of color, your new picture is glorious. When your organ of generation causes and effects weather patterns, this is news. (Man there are so many puns in that sentence I am proud). Cheers. To prove that I like color, type my non-anonymous name into google and follow the first link. Self promotion to no point whatsoever. Wow! Bee-uti-Full photos, Alan! I only perused the front page but will take more time and look. Thanks so much. Very Cool! Wow! Never thought I'd hear about Buddhist fundamentalist. That is really fucked up! Hmm. The idea that a country could elevate Buddhism to a national religion is one thing. The fact that buddhists who arguably should know better could go along with that dicta is entirely another thing... On the other hand--delusion is delusion, and no one is exempt. The Sri Lankans are not alone. Ever go to Thailand and make bawdy jokes about their royalty in a public forum? About the Rinzais being the enemy.. An old zen monk one day told me: "The Christian idea about loving your enemy is a joke. The real challenge is to love your brother" :) We here sometimes get in touch with the rinzais. Just some weeks ago they invited us (the Soto guys) for together watching the Dogen movie at their place. Apuleius, An interesting point. I did take the news story at face value, and maybe I should question it. It would be interesting if this turned out to be a big PR stunt by the author. But the very existence of something that can be called a "hardline Buddhist government" is ... I just have no words for how absurd that sounds. Also, the article title is a reference to the old Dead Kennedys song "Nazi Punks Fuck Off". The DKs were not accusing the punks of actually being Nazis, but of acting like fascists. Honest, the last 13 years has been Soto all the way! (Was facing the inside of the room while being time keeper that is "Rinziaesque"?) It was a very intimate Sesshin. I mailed my application to Great Sky Sesshin. I will get an extra can of "spray on Soto" from Target. I'm floored that such a thing as "hardline Buddhist nationalists" actually exist. I never would have guessed. BTW, I'm friends with your pal Sean Saley - I told him you were coming to town (Wash DC area), and he said drop him a line... Allison Concerning Sarah Malini Perera: It's true that the article looks very bad on the face of it. But I am by nature paranoid, and when I see a news item that tries to make Buddhists look bad I automatically assume Opus Dei is behind it. So far there is still very little information, at least in English, available about what is really going on. And as far as I can tell, no one had ever heard of this "author" until a couple days ago. Sarah Malini Perera has lived in Bahrain, where she converted to Islam, since 1985. In Bahrain Islam is the official state religion. Shia Muslims are the majority, but the country is dominated politically and economically by Sunni Muslims. All religious groups in Bahrain must obtain a license from the Ministry of Islamic Affairs. All anti-Islamic writings are prohibited by law in Bahrain. Women only received the right to vote and to stand in elections in 2002 in Bahrain (in Sri Lanka women got the right to vote in 1931, just 11 years after the US). If Sri Lanka is home to "Buddhist Fundamentalism" then we need to develop a whole new vocabulary for talking about Al Qaeda, the Taliban, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. Isn't it nice of the Sri Lankans to show how any religion, even Buddhism, can be used as an excuse to oppress and judge others. i don't think this a new occurence though, right? didn't buddhists support hirohito during world war 2? also, taoism had a huge military cult in china called the yellow turban sect, and if taoists can go fundamentalist, any religion can. I had a Dead Kennedy's T-shirt back in the day that said "Too Drunk To Fuck". The DK's never intended that people take the message literally, just a public service announcement pointing out a potential occupational hazard. well that takes care of birth control and no need for the morning after pill either We here sometimes get in touch with the rinzais. Just some weeks ago they invited us (the Soto guys) for together watching the Dogen movie at their place OMG! Dont you know? Once you go Rinzai You never go back! All organized religions seem like a scam to me, even the Buddhist ones. Some of the most beautiful places on earth are ruined by religious nonsense. Ever think about putting out another D-13 album Brad? hey john e... I've had an interest in historical alchemy. Cool that you've written a book. Do you know where the phrase "As Above So Below" originates? I thought I had read that it came out of an alchemical tradition. yes, from experience coming down with a cold at the beginning of a sesshin sucks the good part: sesshin (aside from samu and being tenzo helper is sitting quietly and at the end of a 7 day sesshin your cold is gone! (bust be buddhist healing bajic!) (said while blowing nose) a "too drunk to fuck" t-shirt? now THAT is awesome. "holiday in cambodia ... everybody dressed in BLACK!" In general, crowds throwing rocks at someone, regardless of their religion scares me. theres a whole lot of folks calling themselves buddhists in the world who may or may not actually know what the fuck they are talking about. Including me. It was my understanding that while certain buddhists in japan supported the military regime in the 1930's that the regime itself made Shinto the official and sole state religion out of a fear that Buddhism would make it harder to whip up the kind of fanatical nationalism needed to conduct a 10+ year war. Yeah, I cut the sleeves off, and the neck out, back then you had to make your own modifications, rips and tears and safety pin chic hadn't been co-opted by Wal-Mart (and Green Day -snap!) yet. re; Anonymous said..."as above so below" -a whole appendix in my book is dedicated to the completely apocryphal info on that one. It IS the most famous alchemical phrase and basically sums up the whole thing nicely... Just a note of thanks to Brad... What a great retreat. It was nice to talk the "nuts and bolts" of Just Sitting with someone in the know. I actually woke up Monday morning and was sad that I wouldn't be spending 5 hours staring at the wall of a zendo. If we're talking about the same person, I think the Christian at the retreat wound up there by accident, due to someone pulling out at the last minute due to sickness. I don't think that she participated much in the sitting. It looks like she was trying to illegally ship books out of the country without paying some kind of tax or duty or some other fee. Usually there's a duty or tax when importing, not when exporting. Most countries want to export as much as possible. So this explanation doesn't make sense to me. was sad that I wouldn't be spending 5 hours staring at the wall of a zendo. Five hours a day of zazen isn't much for a seshin. Did Brad fill up the rest of the time with talks, or did you take long walks in the woods? Ray -- wrong Christian! One of them sat the whole darn thing! 5 or 6 hours zazen, with talks, meals, and time for walks in the woods is a pretty typical Dogen Sangha retreat, Jinz. (They're not silent either). It was a retreat that was open to novices, and as such, the amount of time spent in the meditation hall was about right..in my opinion, at least. :-) Thanks for the clarification, Brad..I was only aware of the lady that spoke up during introductions. Someone who thinks Buddhism is tolerant and has never persecuted other religions isn't very familiar with their history. In California (a different world) Jesuits who had 'lost their faith' would join Zen Retreats throughout the 70s. It's a kind of 'don't ask, don't tell' thing but, out here on the left coast, a lot of former Xtians use Buddhism as a one-step recovery program. It's no secret that perhaps 1/3 of the cardinals have lost their faith. *****************************". source ****************************** Near the end of her life, Mother Teressa was an atheist. Mother Teresa - Lived as a Saint, died as an Atheist Bless her sacred heart, she woke up! In the meantime, are you guys getting door-to-door Xtian promotion-bots 3 times a week like we are out here? DESPERATION. I'm not anti-rattlesnake... Mrs. Beulah Bucklen, 59, of Charleston, W. Va., died last night, eight days after being bitten twice by a rattlesnake in a snake-handling ritual at Jesus Pentecostal Church at Frazier's Bottom in Putman County, near Charleston. Roscoe Bucklen, her husband, said he persuaded her to seek medical attention when she became violently iii the day after being bitten. Bucklen, who was sitting in his car outside the church when his wife was bitten, said: "I've seen that snake before. It's as big around as your arm. It hit her twice between the thumb and forefinger on the left hand. They had to pull the fangs from her." (Ft. Worth Star Telegram Sept. 25, 1972) 20-C. Darwinism at work, and play. This looks like fun. Absolutely LOADSA stuff about mean, vicious Buddhists. 1972 ??!! What the hell, have all the snake handlers gone to the rattler rapture? SALVATION ON SAND MOUNTAIN is an incredible read, for anyone curious about this very extreme form of Xtian worship. Also, HOLY GHOST PEOPLE, a film about snake fondlers and poison drinkers that I think parts of are on Youtube...SSSSssssssssssssssss...... Jinzang, are you arguing that Toyotomi Hideyoshi's ban on Christianity was because he was a Buddhist? From my reading, he was concerned by the Europeans who insisted upon combining business with Christian missionary activity, and he increasingly came to view such activity as dangerous and subversive both to his own rule and to Japanese society in general. Originally, Nobunaga had actually encouraged the foreign missionaries, owing probably to his desire to check the militant Buddhist sects that opposed him. Anonymous Allison said... I'm floored that such a thing as "hardline Buddhist nationalists" actually exist. I never would have guessed. Don't be floored. This is a reaction to the invasion of Islam. Fundie Xtianity and Fundie Islam share dualism. They are right and any and all others are wrong. 1972 - Ceylon changes its name to Sri Lanka and Buddhism given primary place as country's religion, further antagonising Tamil (Hindu) minority. the Tamils of Ceylon Strictly speaking, the Tamil (Vel) people invaded Ceylon from the North. Ceylon was originally a land of the Dravidians. Archeology has confirmed this a number of times over during the last 50 years. wikipedia So there is a conflict between those who were long ago invaded and those who invaded 2,300 years ago. Same everywhere. Everywhere, the same. Ist das nicht richtig? Or they're not "in the spirit" or whatever. Regardless, it takes balls of steel to pick up and hold a huge pissed off timber rattler and dance around with a bunch of other people shouting and clapping and stomping their feet "in the spirit." It strikes me that 100 reported cases is not all that many...besides, this is something the Hopi people have done for millennia to ensure rain for their corn harvest. My old alchemy teacher Jean Dubuis used to say "Big trouble equals big reward." And John Lennon sang "whatever gets you through the night." It's alright, it's alright. To whom it may concern, For a bunch of people who sit around staring at a blank wall for a significant portion of their lives, casting aspersions on people who dance around with snakes seems kind of strange. The snake stuff at least sounds kind of interesting. It might even be more dangerous:-) Jeeeez. Cheers. all right, I deleted snake bites. Dakhinathupa in Anuradhapura is currently identified by archeologists as a Buddhist temple and NOT the mythical tomb of 2nd century BCE Tamil king Elara. When a new culture arrives, they claim that the preexisting stuff was theirs. The Aztecs claimed Olmec structures, the Xtians claimed Mithraic and Ptolemic stuff, Islam claimed the Hindu (Qube - Kaaba). Chinese Buddhism - and its Japanese offspring - are somewhat distant from the Pali Tripitaka. After all, China had to integrate Taoism and the remnants of Confucianism into their Buddhist Traditions. And both Jodo Shu(Pure Land) and Jodo Shinshu (New Pure Land) introduce a Christianized 'heaven' concept where none exists upstream. One day, I plan to introduce "New, Improved Pure Land Buddhism." But first I must decide on the art work and logo. How about: "Marked improvement in liturgy does not disturb famous Buddhist simplicity." Islam is like the borg. Once the followers reach a certain size they wipe out all other religions. Could Brad do what he is doing in any country with Muslim majority? It was the growth of Islam that led to destruction of several buddhist centers in different parts of Asia. No other religion is allowed to operate freely in Islamic countries. Even Zazen will be banned. Then what will you do? Buddhism's like the Borg too. So many times in dharma talks I've heard the sentiment "resistance is futile". On behalf of my previous link to vicious Buddhists, I apologise for the many dead links therein - but if you're keen and persistent you'll find many that do work, and seem to confirm this to be true. In islamic countries, you sit ZAZEN on the toilet. Alan, I could look at your photos all day.. Really interesting! And for the ladies... Actually, the Xtian fundies have the same concept for America - forced conversion to the Xtian religion (which is borrowed from Buddhism). There is plenty of ignorance to go around. "A careful comparison, word by word, sentence by sentence shows that the Christian Gospels are Pirate-copies of the Buddhist Gospels. God's word, therefore, is originally Buddha's word." oxeye, Thanks, but don't waste your day:-) It's only entertainment. I know for an absolute fact that the only reason they have any appeal at all is their novelty. If more people were doing this kind of stuff, it would be a huge yawn. I read someone who was quoting Susan Sontag on photography to the effect that the first person who took a picture of Half Dome had it easy. Any photograph would hold great excitement. The following photographers have the harder job, to re-imagine a scene that becomes more and more known with each new photograph. Saw your work. You are doing exciting things with color. I'll have to show it to my wife, she is the Rothko fangirl in the family. Cheers. I've done zazen in Jordan, which is a predominantly Muslim country. I had a conversation about Buddhism in the hotel restaurant late at night (one of the other musicians in the orchestra asked me.) Also, I saw THIS internet cafe. There are Christians and Jews in Jordan, so I imagine there could be some Buddhists, but there might not be any. Challenge everything A snake? A hundred foot pole? Belief's a killer! jinzang said Someone who thinks Buddhism is tolerant and has never persecuted other religions isn't very familiar with their history.. You know the old Buddhist saying: ""Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity." The moment fighting starts, peace is lost. A generation after the fighting stops, peace may be restored - unless the parents teach their children bigotry.. This looks like fun. The Trimondis are not a valid source of information about Tibetan Buddhism. For example, they write this:. This is caricature, if not outright slander, not sober analysis. There is at least one Buddhist in Jordan right now. Her name is Katy. The Trimondis are not a valid source of information about Tibetan Buddhism. Oooh! My link! Let me defend it! From the brief tour I made of their site, Jinz, it is clear that the Trimondis have an agenda: "Buddhism - if it will become congruent with western values like democracy, human rights, equality of gender etc. must be “reinvented” The condition therefore is an open, critical and honest debate", they write.? The site links to very many articles - must be over 50, by no means all written by the Trimondis - which I think are useful in challenging our wishful thinking about "Buddhism" as a world religion...many of which back up your original point: Someone who thinks Buddhism is tolerant and has never persecuted other religions isn't very familiar with their history. Jinzang. I haven't read much of the comments but I came upon M's quote: "Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity". I think virginity is usually produced by only one means. Else than this I think we’ve been there before. Somewhat before Jundo. I’m sure a few can still recall. Hasn’t been that long. Or it has been quite long, in a way.. As above, so below. Then Thich Nhat Hanh is an idiot, as peace does not equate to the end of suffering. Extremist Islam is a cancer that should be scalded with boiling water, and that women is a proponent of it. Oh Brad, sick 'em! You are quite dashing in that pic by the Hwood star!! :) Any more details on the event at Sheppard College in West Virginia? April 8th is tomorrow and I would definitely be interested in attending. AHEM!! As Above, So Below! Respect!! Well said I was reading the Dhammapada when I heard about the trouble in Sri Lanka. I hope the JHU finds time to reflect on scripture in the midst of their troubles. I don't know much about the Zen school, but your use of language seems to suggest klesha. I have heard that the Tibeatn can speak and act with a foul manner without klesha. I can't. :D Righteous indignation is hypocrisy, are you the same as the JHU? Be Well! fuck u bitches

FLAT EARTH SOCIETY and MOTH Over the last couple months while I've been traveling two more Dimentia 13 downloads have become available. I've been scurrying around too much to promote them like I should have been. So here goes: FLAT EARTH SOCIETY Flat Earth Society is Dimentia 13’s pop album. It was 1989 and I had been making Dimentia 13 records for five years. Two years before the first Dimentia 13 release I’d been a member of the hardcore punk band Zero Defex who had also been on a few compilation albums. After seven years in the music business at age 25 I had yet to be able to earn anything close to a living wage and I was getting desperate. It’s amazing how old you can feel at 25. In spite of being known as a hardcore punk guy in Zero Defex and a psychedelic dude in Dimentia 13, I had always been interested in pure pop music for its own sake. In those days I wrote songs constantly. When preparing the Dimentia 13 records I tended to pick the most psychedelic pieces from among the dozens of demos I made each year. Or else I’d dress up the pop songs I wrote in psychedelic clothing, adding vintage Farfisa organs or Mellotrons or fuzztone guitars to disguise the goofball pop songs underneath. Which is what most of the original psychedelic bands of the Sixties did anyway. By the late 80s a lot of vaguely psychedelic and overtly Sixties inspired bands were selling records and getting noticed by the emerging “alternative” scene — bands like REM, Robyn Hitchcock and the Egyptians, The Stone Roses, and a boatload of others now long since forgotten. I wanted a piece of that action. So I decided to tone down those elements I felt were tying Dimentia 13 to the narrow confines of garage/psych revival scene. There would be no Mellotrons or Farfisa organs, no sitars or backwards tapes, the fuzztone guitars would take on a more contemporary sound, and I would admit musical influences and lyrical references from after 1967. I also worked out a new guitar sound I was particularly proud of. I bought a giant red hollow bodied Eko guitar, made in Italy in the late Sixties and plugged it into both a bass and a guitar amp at the same time, added some vintage spring reverb and turned it up to seventeen. In the studio it sounded amazing. Unfortunately that sound didn’t transfer well to tape. You get a hint of how awesome it was on the James Bond theme-inspired riffing of album’s first song Can This Be True Love but elsewhere it gets lost. The band on this album was me on lead vocals and lead guitar, Jeff Lisk on drums, Joe Nofziger on bass, and Louanne Varholick on vocals and keyboards. Jeff was a hot shit drummer in Chicago at the time. He was very good and he knew it. His playing on the record is really sharp and precise, but it's a little too clean for my tastes these days. Joe had been my best friend since seventh grade and kindly drove all the way up to Milwaukee from Columbus, Ohio to play on the album. Louanne had been the bassist on the previous album, Disturb The Air. But she was a better keyboard player and singer so I had her do what she did best instead of being hampered with the bass, which she was never all that enthusiastic about. The musicianship on this album is far tighter and more professional than on the previous Dimentia 13 records. I hoped the resulting album would help me break out of the tight bound confines of the pysch genre and maybe even make some money. In the end, though, it didn’t sell any better than the previous Dimentia 13 records. In fact, it did a little worse than the albums that came before. In the end, it was the final album I put out on Midnight Records. It took me a long time to start liking this album again. At the time of its release I thought it was great. But when it met with poor sales and critical indifference I started looking at it as a failure, a reminder of a bad time in my life and a misguided attempt to sell out and be commercial. Nowadays I can listen to it and enjoy it, but for years I couldn’t. These days I sometimes play a couple songs from this album when I give talks about my books. Buddha Was A Good Ol' Boy always gets a laugh and God Pt. III, which I also play at speaking gigs sometimes, is a prototype for some of the topics I write about these days. In fact the lyrics on most of the album are really philosophical and very much inspired by the Zen training I’d been going through for close to a decade by then. Here to tempt you into buying the album are two tracks that I had intended to include as bonus tracks on the download. I’m not sure why I didn’t. I think I just spaced out and forgot to send them to the people at Smog Veil Records who arranged the download. The good news is that you now can have them absolutely free of charge. Hopefully they will act like the first taste of crack a dealer gives you and make you need to buy the rest. SKULL SHINING This instrumental was meant to be a bonus track on the original CD release. But it never made it on there and I don’t remember why. It’s based on a riff I once heard the Meat Puppets play. It’s also the most overtly psychedelic song recorded during the album sessions. So maybe that’s why it was left off. I like it a lot now and if I could I would make this the first song on the album. TELL ME WHERE SHE’S GONE This is probably the most overtly pop song recorded for the album. Again, I don’t recall why it was dropped. In fact, I didn’t even remember recording it for the album until I found it on a cassette about a year ago. I remember thinking at the time I wrote the song that it had the potential to become a college radio hit. So why would I have left it off the record? Who knows? Anyway, I was especially proud of ripping off one of the riffs from the 70s prog rock masterpiece Hocus Pocus by the Dutch band Focus in the middle section. MOTH This was the final album I recorded as Dimentia 13 for Midnight Records. It was never released by them, though, because I had a huge argument with the record label. I felt like I deserved to be treated better. In retrospect they treated me pretty fairly. It’s just that they were never very open with me about what they were doing. Whatever. I remember trying to correct some of the mistakes I’d made on Flat Earth Society with this record. I was no longer so obsessed with making a contemporary sounding album. So some of the overtly psychedelic sounds I’d eliminated on Flat Earth Society are allowed to return. The result is a much more balanced album. It’s still more of a pop album than the early Dimentia 13 records. But it’s truer to what I really wanted to hear. Because of the disputes with Midnight Records, this album was never really finished. I made a mix that I submitted to Midnight. But it was awful. I was trying to recapture the sound that Glen Rehse had created when he produced the Disturb The Air album. But I didn’t really know how he accomplished it. So I just overloaded every track with reverb and echo until the whole thing sounded like it had been recorded in a cave. It was a murky depressing sound and for years I thought of this as a murky depressing album. Then late in 2009 when I was cleaning out some old boxes I came across a cassette of rough mixes for the album. These were created as reference mixes to guide in making the final mixes later. I told the engineer to simply make all of the tracks we recorded audible and not add any effects. When I listened to these again I discovered that the album itself was not murky and depressing at all. It was just all that reverb and shit I added on later. For the currently available download version, I used these rough mixes and ran them through a digital mixing system to bring out some of the nuances. The only song on which I used the mix I had considered “final” back in 1991 was Anjalina. The rest are rough mixes. The band on this album was the live version of Dimentia 13 as it existed in 1991. I sang lead vocals and tortured the guitars. Joe Nofziger, my best friend since seventh grade plays bass and sings backing vocals, and Steve McKee, once the drummer of my favorite Akron-based punk band The F-Models plays drums. The lyrics are a kind of autobiographical rock opera about my return to Akron after three years in Chicago. But that would have been such an incredibly mundane subject for a rock opera that I never let anyone know that’s what it was. The Pamela Song is about a girl I dated in Akron. The Calico Girl in the song of that name is someone I left behind in Chicago. That same girl is also the subject of Panther. Anjalina isn’t about a girl at all, but is about my friend Jim Bradler who had died a few years before very suddenly when he was only 25 years old. The song lists off a whole string of phrases he used to say, like “give me her number.” Precious One is my attempt at writing a Badfinger song. But I was too embarrassed to use the original heart-on-my-sleeve romantic lyrics I’d written and instead wrote a bunch of psychedelic sounding nonsense. Love Song '73 was my attempt to write the kind of song The Partridge Family might have played in 1973. Again it’s about someone I knew. Walk Like An Insect contains my poor attempt to do a rap about the then-current state of the country. Another Song About Heaven is a parody of the band Warrant, who were huge at the time. The reason I wrote a Warrant parody is because Joe had been in a band called Blu whose drummer Steve Chamberlin had moved to California and joined Warrant. We’d both been friends with Steve and were kind of amazed by this. Honey I'm Your Ghost was an attempt to write a Cramps song. Lux Interior was from Akron. Smash Your Head was about the frustrations of trying to make it in the music business. Somehow all of this stuff related to Akron and what was happening in my life there at the time. I still really like this album. I know it sounds egotistical to give your own record a glowing review. But I was trying to write and record songs that I personally liked. So, of course I’m gonna like them! But I feel like this is a happy, upbeat album even though some of the specific subject matter is not. It’s an album about fighting the good fight even when you feel like you’re probably going to lose in the end. Here is my favorite song from the MOTH LP, available for free on this here blog to hopefully make you feel guilty enough to buy the rest: Anjalina 71 comments: STRIKE ! Regards, Gerald G, touché! Good stuff. Both tracks were fun distractions from Genjokoan while waiting at Narita Airport. Thanks for sharing! Well, as the "outside independent member", I would like to offer a seat to my brother Brad, if he would have it. Blogger gniz said... If Jundo starts an objective, autonomous board of directors/oversight committee then something good has come of this. I'm not really holding my breath though. Filling such positions with a bunch of Treeleafers who want to please Jundo or have shown themselves to be good little soldiers is not gonna cut it, imo. then jundo cohen said... Well, as the "outside independent member", I would like to offer a seat to my brother Brad, if he would have it. Seriously, I cannot think of anyone who would be a better candidate for that, and it would be a great bridge so that people can see that the things between him and me were a tempest in a teapot. So, consider it hereby officially offered, and I ask you to talk with him about it and see if you can get him to accept. He would not have to be involved in monitoring every post, but any member could write to him with a complaint and he would investigate and write about it as he wishes. I think it a nice idea. Please talk with him about it, as it is a serious offer. If not, I will try to find an unrelated, respected Zen teacher (not related to Genpo! :-) )who might step in in that role. I will keep you informed of how the rest of the board is set up, and I expect you will post about it. Gassho, J Since you gave up your Apartment March 1, 2010 which coincides with Katagiri Roshi's 20th anniversary of his death you are welcome to crash at my Phoenix pad and check out the scene. And the bowling is great! The tunes aren't bad. Thanks for sharing them! A courtyard common to all will be swept by none. Dude, Anjalina is awesome. It's cool how the balance between retro-psychedelic and dance pop ended up with some good old new wave punk like Anjalina. I love that kind of stuff. "A courtyard common to all will be swept by none." True enough Seagal.. The Godless Commies never sweep their courtyards except when threatened by force. Taigu posted this on the treeleaf site. - [Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokudo Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2003. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.] This seems odd.. at least to me, that Mike Cross, who was basically told by Jundo Cohen that he needed psychiatric care after he was booted out of Dogen Sangha, decides that Pierre Turler has what it takes to be a teacher in his former teacher's tradition. Then Pierre partners up with the same Jundo Cohen at Treeleaf after Jundo is booted from DS. Does this make any sense at all? Why did Taigu go to Mike Cross for his transmission and Jundo Cohen for students? If this was a job resume I wouldn't hire him. Because they are the sane, wise and gifted ones in the disfunctional crazy family? That also explain a lot of the jealousy directed toward them around here and in DS, Now I know already 3 people of Dogen-Sangha (or at least former DS participants, regarding Jundo)who would need psychiatric care!!! Every organization has different ways to handle people ! As far as I know Nishijima, he is not the one who recommends psychiatric care for his students. And I can't get this impression from Brad either. re: the music. Good stuff. I liked it. Jundo! Have you lost your mind? Why are you always posting your personal things in this blog? Collecting soldiers? Lost Brads email-adress? You got dharma-transmission? For what? Holding Nishijimas hand, when he signed the documents? Man, even Seagal Rinpoche is a little more joyful than you. Try to be diplomatic or diplomatic, but not diplomatic. As Mysterion postulated once: I know an AUTHORITY when I see one... Kónnichi wá ! Gerald At least Chet has the courage to place a picture of himself beside his words. Some people have it, some people don't. Peace back at ya. The it I was referring to was courage, not Chet's picture. :) by Jundo on Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:51 am Hi Guys, I just had a nice chat with Chet. He said I could discuss this subject here, because he does all the time ... including on this thread.. Source Awwww, I'd propose a group (grope?) hug if I though that Rinz wouldn't go for my nuts with that scary looking set of choppers. Regards, H. "Buddhism ia based in the psychological grammar that says we cannot eliminate the so-called negative forces of afflictive emotions. The only way to work with them is to encounter them directly, enter their world, and transform them. Thus, according to Buddhist psychology, anger can be transformed into mirrorlike wisdom or clarity; pride can be transformed into equalizing or equanimity and generosity; desire can be transformed into discriminating wisdom or discernment; jealousy can be transformed into unhindered wisdom or enlightened activity; and ignorance can be transformed into the wisdom of our True Nature, or clear and energetic intelligence." Exerpt from: The fruitful darkness by Joan Halifax So there's hope for everybody. "So there's hope for everybody." Hi, There sure is; too much in some cases we need hardly mention. However, the "psychological grammar" of hope might not be all it's cracked up to be... sincere effort, on the other hand... Regards, Harry. Sincere effort is sooo hard.. Hope on the other hand is so easy a child can do it. Hi Anon, I find that kids, up to a certain age (sometimes 9, sometimes 90), are much more direct and honest than 'hope'. I find that they just want things straight away and if they can't get 'em straight away, rather than hang around pissing everybody off with their wonderful, elaborate 'hopes' (that are just extended, complicated 'wants'?) they bawl their eyes out, stamp their feet, scream and shout, call us adults evil, hurtful bastards... and then just get over it. Regards, Harry. Back in the cassette culture days I used to write reviews of all kinds of independent musical releases for SOUND CHOICE and OPTION mags. If I couldn't find a way to say something nice about the tunes, I would always find something to compliment the musicians on, knowing myself how much blood sweat and tears goes into recording. In that vein, I have to say that the album cover artwork on both Flat Earth Society and Moth is excellent! Harry: Hope is dope. John E: You ain't that good yourself old son. But you got a hell of a haircut. Dope indeed. ...BTW, I'm having a funny exchange over on the About.com Buddhist blog with Zen Master Barbera there arising from her post about one of Brad's posts here: It involves koans and the role of the language/expression of realisation and non-realisation. Rinz, you might get a kick out of it, seeing two Sotoist ley bums floundering around like hapless self appointed Zen authorities. Regards, Harry. Dear Jundo, You wrote: ." That describes my condition too. I have post-trauma stress-condition which is essentially a disregulation of the part of my nervous system I can't control. It resulted from experiencing some significant physical injuries from accidents in childhood. Although I'm now receiving therapy, when my system is 'activated' by a stressful event I charge up with energy and become disconnected from how my body feels. I also interpret things suspiciously, act more aggressively, and say and do things I wish I didn't, etc. Later I will 'collapse' with exhaustion and feel unmotivated for extended periods. I don't know if your friend has the same condition, but from your description that person might be interested to read about the kind of therapy I am receiving: Best Wishes, Anonymous Hayzus Christi, Harry. You've got alot of time on your hands. Put them to better use and you and Barbara get a F'in room... Rinz, Anything you read is read subjectively, you can't help but read it "your way." How you read it is simply how YOU read it. One person's "words divorced from practice don't mean anything" is another's poetry. I find Babs assertion that you shouldn't read sutras without an advanced zen person to guide you a little odd. This is exactly what many fundamentalist christians say about the bible. Reading it on your own may even lead you to unbelief, so you should have a theologian or preacher standing by to interpret everything for you so that you don't misunderstand. Presumably we need a mullah handy before we can read the quran too. Perhaps we need a genuine advanced communist available before we read the works of Marx and Engels. So you need an orthodox soto zennist standing over your shoulder telling you exactly what Dogen meant by xy or z. I don't buy it. I do think a strong zen practice is important to understand either the sutras or writings of any old master, including Dogen. But to suggest it requires someone to interpret it so that there's no misunderstanding seems to enforce orthodoxy to the nth degree. Perhaps the 'adnvanced zen person' herself has misunderstood the whole point of a text. Who gets to determine who is advanced or who has misunderstood? I keep expecting Babs to say; "Ahhh Grasshopper..." Barbera said wanted: "a teacher who has good understanding of dharma." So who is it? Brad, Jundo or anonymous?." Delusion mixed with realization. Defilement with purity. Throwing them both out and overturning the bowl sounds like a good zen answer but it points to an attachment to emptiness, a one-sided view. Such a throwing away leaves no way for buddha to actually function and save all beings. What will the community eat? The adept must be able to drink the milk and leave the poison though they are mixed in one bowl. I'm thinking of renting "Baraka", anyone seen it? High-def beautiful footage from around the world? Anyone got any super-chillout movie recommends? Thanx ... John E Mumbles, In your three posts in this blog you are critical of three different people. Telling Brad his music isn't that great, telling Harry he has too much time on his hands, and telling Rinz the one true way to read.... That's impressive man....R u that critical of everyone in real life? This blog has become so boring. Fuck it, I was having a really bad day. Thanks for pointing that out Anonymous. My apologies to all. ... Rinz, I hear ya, but on the very basic level before "you" let go, where I saw Harry and Barbara's discussion, its only your world: Welcome to it. Anonymous said... This blog has become so boring. That's because all the trolls came over to my site the last day or two, they'll be back when things die out... I remember "Tell Me Where She's Gone" from back in the day, maybe from a demo. It's quite the good song and nice to hear it again. Thanks Dale! I'm nothing more than an ANONYMOUS CUMSHOT, so take this for what it's worth: Jundo's behavior over on "Reblogging Brad Warner" shows that, if anything, he's regressing and becoming even more childish (in a not-good way) and passive-aggressive. And to think he and the other one are about to start cranking out Zen cybermonks. "Baraka", anyone seen it? Yeah, I liked in and you probably will too, as long as you like the music of Philip Glass. "Unmistaken Child" was also pretty cool. The high point of the movie is actually the shots of the beautiful Himalayan scenery. Baraka? Isn't he some character from Mortal Combat? Trolls Come Home! Please, for God's sake... Come HOME! Leave Reblogging alone and come back to your first love. Without you this blog comment section is dying... dying, I tell you. We need you so much. We are so sorry we were mean and disrespectful to you. ." R. A. Lafferty Nice quote. I love R.A. Lafferty. ...Subjectively speaking, of course. R we ther yt? Word Verification = chills Oh oh oh... I've got one! "What others criticize you for, cultivate, for that is you." -Jean Cocteau Statement from Zen Studies Society Posted by Philip Ryan in : Zen , 4 comments. UPDATE: In response to further questions (see comments below), the Board writes: “While Eido Roshi has resigned from the Board, he remains abbot of NYZ and DBZ. Internal discussions continuing.”. February 21, 2010 10:23 PM If any of you fine folk at Treeleaf, and I believe there are many, want to take a peek into what someone very close to you has been up to recently, take a VERY CLOSE look at comments to Gniz's post, "Genpo and Jundo are not one the same." I think you might recognize one of the trolls over there. He is posting from Japan. SOMEONE IS POSTING ANONYMOUSLY FROM JAPAN? WHO IS IN JAPAN AND KNOWN TO POST ON THAT SITE? Regarding the "best buddhist blogs" award this blog has gotten.. I looked over the list, and it seems that Brad is the only one who isn't completely nuts. Good job, Brad. Some of you may think all of this dharma soap opera is a modern or american thing. These are from a discussion about Shen Hui over on ZFI: About Shen Hui: "For him to say he cared nothing for his own life is a laugh! He wanted that robe and lineage for his own. He wanted to be the seventh patriarch. Later in his life he was involved in selling ordinations. Wanna be a monk? Pay enough and we'll ordain you on this platform, right here in this square!." Then there's this from another site by Vladimir K on the Northern vs Southern Chan split: "Although history has, in a sense, vindicated Shen-hui’s position, in many respects he was, at best, a questionable (though highly effective) evangelist for Ch’an. He was not above making up stories to promote Hui-neng and his “school”. He claimed that Bodhidharma and all subsequent masters in the lineage taught the Diamond Sutra rather than the Lankavatara Sutra, a claim Yampolsky (1967:34) dismisses as “pure fabrication.” Dumoulin (1994:113- 114) called him “unscrupulous” in his attacks on the Northern School. Shen-hui accused Northern School practitioners of attempting to steal Bodhidharma’s robe, trying to cut off the head of Hui-neng’s mummified body, effacing Hui-neng’s tomb inscription and altering the inscription on Shen-hsiu’s stele to call him the Sixth Patriarch (Yampolsky, 1967:28-29; Dumoulin, 1994:113-114) He also claimed that he was a tenth stage bodhisattva, a claim Poceski judges as “outrageous”." Wow. Selling ordination certificates. Is this any different than charging for Big Mind seminars? To support the military too. What if Genpo gave his money from Big Mind seminars to George Bush to finance his invasion of Iraq? Does Jundo claim that he's a 10th stage bodhisattva? As the dharma turns. You have testicles? Huh. Sure sounds like you're hatin' on Me, brutha. I ain't fat, except with love for you Rinz. It's ok John E.. Rinz gets confused.. We all love him here. Some of us even love his Mama. CAPTCHA : lessof : I kid you not You guys wouldn't know Ken Show if he bit you in the ass! I definitely love his Mama long time. Shoot, he may be my son for all I know. Rinz! Son! Come home to your unenlightened everlovin' Papa!! Sorry I neutered you, boy, it was for the sake of the barnyard animals... Mama sez sorry, too. We proud, Son, keep up the Kensho! Look to your heart, son. Your Mama and I know you have abandonment issues. Come home. We did a bad, bad thing (OK we do that often, ...blush!). Enlighten us with your wisdom, son, we are sad old fornicators. What? Koan got your tongue? What happened to Anon108? Did you nice folks run him off? o/ Hi Captcha = miashe :-)

. 140 comments: I kid you not. But what about people who get killed in violent attacks such as you faced. Did they also actually need to be killed or was it their true will to be dead? If one believes in rebirth literally this theory could be logical, but I know you don't so please explain further. Janne- Dont miss the point where Brad says "I only apply this to myself" You cant think for another and you certainly cant think for the universe. you can look at your OWN life and try to make sense of that, but what I think brad is saying and I agree with myself is that this way of looking at the world can only be applied by YOU to YOURSELF, not ohers. Even if you take a vow of silence, that too can and will be misinterpreted. Such is life. Well said. I wish I could take a vow of silence, but everyone around me would just say "aww, he's being aloof", or "he must be mad at me". Finally finished the new book. Love it. (X-cept fo' the goofy footnotes, he-he, ha-ha....but I realize that's just Brad's humor). .”. It doesn’t sound very sincere. And it doesn’t make sense, too. I don’t believe you can’t apply it to others, and I have a good example of someone who did, successfully. “I don't even care if this idea is objectively true or not. I believe it is or I wouldn't use it.” - What does this mean? (!) I don’t know but this may be just the reason brad got this comment. KWIM. (- and Janne, - how do you “know” - I’m kind of curious, - did Mysterion tell you?) Once again... Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. Janne - I'm joking about Mysterion (btw, - talking about a vow of silence, - I mean, - just consider ...) but I am serious about the question. Not that important though. Well Brad said himself: "In fact in my case it didnt really fix much of anything. OK. A few nagging fears that had dogged me for ages were gone.. Yet you're not going to live forever either. Youre gonna be dead as a doornail someday and ain't nothin' gonna bring you back. You won't get reincarnated either." Janne - .” - I could say this for myself too. And even if I could disappear this wouldn’t necessarily be frightening. I just wouldn't exist. Second - I'm gonna be dead - but not as a doornail, doornails don't die in the first place. - And - “You won't get reincarnated either”, - B is misleading you. - He is not going to. - Most people will. - He’s intentionally getting misunderstood. - Some do that too. (I haven’t read the whole thing. I might want to but I easily get a headache.) Years ago, at the time of the infected blood scandal, in France, a minister declared that she felt responsible yet not guilty. Immediately she was shot down in full flight by the media, who pretended that she was playing upon words. But the distinction was, I feel, important. We have a share of responsibility in what happens to us. But we have to be careful into not transforming that into guilt. We are NOT guilty that thugs assult us. But we have to examine our responsibility in it. I have stated this countless times, but I have had a very bad master in my trade, who was more interrested in humiliating me than in teaching me violin making. But I had been warned by my father not to trust him. And I had had quite a few warnings from the man's behaviour as well. So if I stuck with him, wasn't it that, through my desperation to learn violin making, I was providing the thug with the club with which to club me? The real solution would have been to go somewhere else, but I chickened out because that would have meant going abroad, in a foreign land, having to starve and work hard outside the school to pay for my tuition fees and so on. So the "buyers beware", in the end remains the only solution. What's more, Anonymous' attempts to drag Brad into the feud with Graham are counterproductive, since they just annoy those who are too far away to be able to do anything about it, and won't change anything to those who are still enthralled by the man. I have here, in my city, a Dharma "uncle" who might deserve a lot of criticism, but that won't deter his disciples, who think that his Dharma talks are "truly inspired" and would probably think mine are a tad too plain and down to earth. wtf Brad... I am surprised. Disappointed and a little sickened too... You seemed to find all the time in the world to go after Genpo and his scam, arguing over topics like what is enlightenment, and how you know that what Genpo is selling ain't it... Stuff, that is arguably hard to pin down. But when it comes to things that are EASILY verified such as ordination papers - it just isn't worth your time??? Oh yeah? Where is YOUR proof that you are ordained? (and with that question, *BAM*, you can instantly substantiate your ordination right? Pictures of your papers? Pictures of your ordination ceremony? OF COURSE YOU CAN!) Barry Dogo Graham has NEVER done this, even after being repeatedly asked! Just by looking at the Raksu's he has done for people you can tell he is a sham! You know Japan...? he claims (on Sitting Frog Zen website) that he trained "...at Butsudo Zen Center in Kyoto, Japan, where he received Dharma Transmission from Ando Yamashiro Roshi." Is that hard for somebody that speaks Japanese to verify this?? I will NEVER for the life of me understand why teachers don't think that exposing fakers is important... It's hard enough for a new student to figure what's what when first starting out on the Zen path, and having the proof, pictures, paper and pedigree is no guarantee that the teacher is a good one. But THIS... There has got to be a standard, a base line at least, to be able to tell if people are even what they say they are. And most importantly, there has to be teachers who take it as their responsibility. (And PS - Hawking your T shirts in a blog posting where the poster you quote is ripping on you for being more interested in hawking your t shirts than caring weather or not Barry Graham is legit.... a tad low brow IMO.) Sorry - this whole thing makes me a little hot under th' rakusu... What is the difference between enlightenment and schizoid personality disorder? Zach, someone asked me once a long while ago about whether a certain Zen teacher (you guess who, I'm not telling) was legit or not. I told him that I honestly didn't know but that if he wondered about this he could simply ask that Zen teacher to produce his certificates or have his ordaining teacher write a letter vouching for it. I told him that's what I did once when such questions came up about me. When I saw a lot of stuff about that Zen teacher on the Internet I started wondering if I was the one who touched off the storm.. In fact, Genpo's paperwork is all very much in order. Which also says something about the issue of paperwork. It doesn't mean you're not a charlatan just because you have a certificate of authenticity. ." Sigh... Sadly, you are all too right about this. I am in the same lineage Genpo is, and to me personally, Genpo is doing EVERYTHING that my teacher warned to look out for... and is a charlatan. Even my teacher never came out publicly against Big Mind, but to his students he said the whole thing looked like a scam to make money... Sorry if I came out strong. I guess the authorities can only do so much - it's just frustrating. As an aside, Barry Graham has booted folks who asked him about papers/proof... I guess this is proof enough that he is a fraud. Check this link from Zach. Check the bottom two lines. Tells you what Tricycle is good for. What Dogen calls “stupid secular people” may not always be apparent. Apparently. It may be more important than the what's-his-name story in itself. (- Not that I understand why Brad won’t mention his name) If a person fakes his credentials once it means he's a fake. No true master would do that. I can't really see why anyone would see such an essential need to go further. If I buy into the notion of anatman (that there is no "self") - and I do - then "blaming the victim" makes no sense. I am the universe; the victim is the universe too; so I am to blame for others' suffering. Even if I don't buy into it, it makes no sense. I mean, which is more likely: African kids starve because of negative consequences of karma from a previous life, or subsidies to US and European farmers made by people I elected make indigenous African farming prohibitively expensive causing repeated famines, all so that I can spend $4 on Cheerios and buy my third plasma-screen TV with the money I save? But even if you don't accept that, the starving Africans cause you suffering as well because if they weren't suffering, they would be economically, socially, culturally, academically, intellectually and politically more active, contributing more to humanity generally. We all miss out because little Mbutu isn't eating today. "I don't even care if this idea is objectively true or not. I believe it is or I wouldn't use it. But even if it turns out I'm wrong, this way of thinking has been so incredibly useful I still wouldn't give it up." Fascinating.. It seems to me that you are saying that belief is more useful than the truth. CAPTCHA : reagun : I kid you not Anonymous Bob, ever heard of a term "prajna"? :) R at 9:56 AM: That last sentence in parentheses, you should've stopped at "-Not that I understand..." Captcha: wimmon When we attach to a problem, we make the problem worse. When we attach to a solution, we make the problem worse. - Dogo Barry Graham My chicks are cuter than Brad's Finnish lasses...check 'em out: ." What a complete and utter load of bollocks. You could have "gotten to the bottom of it" in half the time it took it took me to read this post, much less the time you took to write it. You refuse to use a name that you simply point to elsewhere on your blog - why? For what reason? Why the gamesmanship, obfuscation? Just say what you mean. Is it related to the picture of you embracing each other? You are already involved - own it. Brad, you seem happy to accept your role as Zen authority when it suits you. You keep saying how you don't like to accept money for teaching Zen, and complain about others who do so, but you make your living essentially teaching Zen, in the guise of writing books - If you weren't a "Zen Master" no one would care, and you apparently wouldn't have any subject matter to write about. Graham is symptomatic of exactly the shadow you and your work is casting. He's clearly modeled himself on you, as others are. You seem to have plenty of time to form opinions about all kinds of other pointless things. Own your impact in the milieu - I wish you weren't so prevalent, but unfortunately for us all, you are. Kevin Souza seems to have made your work easy - go to his blog, spend the 15 minutes it takes to read all of its contents, and if you aren't convinced that BARRY GRAHAM is a complete fraud and pathological user then you shouldn't be teaching anyone anything, much less asserting yourself as an authority about Zen - which you unequivocally do, all your disclaimers notwithstanding. What a cop out. zach @ 9:22: precisely! precisely because the fakery of the faker is already out there for others to see and read, precisely because dude can't/won't produce credentials or letters of authentication... precisely because of these things and all your links to documentation of these shenanigans from other sources precisely no need for anyone else to denouce the guy, it's been done done already anon. @6:20 ditto for you you seem to be saying with regard to Mr. Graham: he is a pile of shit! See, he smells like shit and it's been documented! See, he feels like shit and the labs have tested it! Now Brad, come over here and taste it and tell me that doesn't taste exactly like shit! How much verification of his sleaziness do you need? Why do you need Brad to denouce the pathetic dude's ass to be satisfied that the dude has been sufficiently denounced? snessfir: I kid you not There are always sociopaths and psychopaths who seek to use others, steal from them, abuse. The methods just change with the scenery, as new opportunities present themselves. Warner has largely crafted the parameters for this con job. Do we leave victims to just figure out in what way they 'secretly desired' to be abused? Or do we speak out when we smell rat? When the smoke around Graham grows so thick that potential victims have to virtually choke on it to get near him, then the American Zen community will have done its job. He is asserting himself as an authority in that community. He isn't. He's a two-bit con man and abuser. This is not "he said/she said", or anything close to it. anon @ 6.20 etc, You sound exasperated that Brad isn't doing what you'd do if you were Brad...Or that Brad isn't responding how Brad would respond if he were you. Well... The trouble with SBZA is that it gains most of it's authenticity from members who truly are working dharma or whatever... but like all organizations it will be infiltrated and corrupted by some and membership withheld as blackmail or used as a shield for evils. Such things are inevitable. So one must be very careful whom they lend their trust and identity to because you will be judged by the company you keep - just like Aesop's farmer catching the stork in his field. @ Captcha = luenta not at all. He chose to address the issue - only in the laziest, most irresponsible way imaginable. If he's going to address it, ADDRESS IT. C-O-P O-U-T. Anon @ 7.09pm etc You sound exasperated that Brad didn't address the issue the way you have addressed the issue. Well... anon @6:46 who now DOESN'T know that the emperor isn't wearing clothes? seems plain to see Brad or anyone else saying 'now looka he'ah, all these people have documented seeing the emperor claiming to wear clothes, but...as evidenced he'ah, he ain't got a stich on! Do you, sir(or madam as the case may be) not have your own eyes? Perhaps you expect Brad to oversee a zen equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition well, well, well.... No one expects the Spanish Inquisition! (thanks M.P.) anon@7:09 you aren't lazy if you aren't doing something that doesn't need to be done Brad has no problem slamming Genpo as a fake. But when it comes to someone like Barry Graham, he is not willing to even name him. One wonders why... Master Svaha, Perhaps Brad hasn't named whoever, this time, because he doesn't want to provide quotes that will very likely be used by this person's friends or enemies as fuel for yet another online spat - - for all the reasons stated in his post and in his subsequent comments. But Brad seems to have no problem providing quotes that can be and has been used by Genpo's friends or enemies as fuel for online spats... Yes indeed, Master S, but Brad feels rather differently about Genpo and...whoever. Have you read the post and comments? What post/comments? Brad and Barry are lovers. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I'm just saying. Not Lovers, butt buddies. Funny, Graham claims to not believe in anything and Mysterion claims not to believe in anything. Butt buddies. Karma=one of the 5 Niyamas or processes that move in the world. There is no karma without intention. Unless Brad intended to get the shit kicked out of him, by taunting those guys or whatever, karma attached to him is irrelevant. It was not his "karma" to take an ass-whooping. Similarly with other "victims". The whole point, it seems, when Brad writes about the application of karma to himself is this. His intention. Tsunamis, rape, abuse, fraud and so forth are not karma driven by those who are victim to these things. There is no big scorekeeper in the sky keeping a list of who's naughty and nice. Here's a big explanation about it. There are many if you google Buddhist Niyamas. The Theory of Karma Basically Karma is not fatalism. And if you don't like the Theravada explanation here's one from the Mahayana, specifically from a Zen guy. Komment on Karma Here's a list of the Niyamas for those too lazy to look it up. Utu-niyama are the laws of physics, such as the weather and the changes brought about by heat and cold. Bija-niyama are laws of heredity, which is best described in the adage, "as the seed, so the fruit." Citta-niyama laws of psychology and cognition. Kamma-niyama is law of cause and effect. [and it's not "personal" =anatta, nor is it the "law of attraction" or some other kind of bullshit like that] Dhamma-niyama is the laws of the interdependence of all things, the way all things arise, exist and then cease. Basic fucking Buddhism. Sheesh. On the Barry Graham situation. I've been writing about this for a couple of years as have a few others. There's no reason Brad has to get on his high horse and go after the guy. He's got his own issues. So what if Brad takes a stand and denounces him. Anyone actually think Graham cares about that? Brad, Joko Beck, John Tarrant, Kobutsu Malone, guys on death row and hundreds of others are only extras in the melodrama Graham's created and wallows in. He plays all these parts-big time international writer, Zen master, death row reporter and so on. Then invokes Ikkyu and/or some PTSD victim role when he gets called on it. He's got the angles sussed out. Other than warning people, which Brad is rather tepidly doing, there is not much more that can be done unless someone files some charges. And I know that there are a few people who do have a viable legal case. This would likely include anyone who he performed a marriage ceremony for since he is not a recognized clergy person by any authorizing body. [that's called fraud Here is more on that specifically in reference to the Graham situation.] I agree Nella, he doesn't have to go after the guy, but I don't agree with the comment of "having the bullshit detector on" or the "buyer beware". Yes, we do have to be aware, and do our best to weed through the bullshit. But. Brad's met Graham, and even believed that he was a Rinzai teacher. He mentions it. I believe they were even in communication for a bit. So, where was Brad's "bullshit detector"? If he was a new student off the street, like myself, he could've just as easily been duped like the rest of us. Yes, this is speculation, but Graham is VERY convincing off the bat. He talks a great game. He hasn't made it this far by not. Sometimes that detector just isn't sharp enough. The guys that are good at this, know what they're doing. It's dangerous. Seriously said... What is the difference between enlightenment and schizoid personality disorder? 9:29 AM The enlightened one sees the disorder in himself, the unenlightened one doesn't. Brad, thanks for your teaching. I think I know why I wanted that shitty thing to happen -) and I'm already acting with a new understanding. Rich, If it was a simple as that, most all of us here would already see ourselves as enlightened. Oh.. Most all of us here do see ourselves as enlightened. First mumbles now ashiq chris this blog is taken over by black magic sufis! Hey Kevin @11:32 I do recall when Graham was making remarks about being Brad's good buddy, dharma cousin or whatever. It was around the same time he was trying to get the dharma book published by Brad's old publisher. We don't hear anything about that book these days though. So who knows, maybe Brad, the publisher and other affiliated people got scammed by him too. It's helpful to step back from these teachers and check out who actually publically supports them and who doesn't. I don't see many (other than Bernie Glassman) openly supporting Genpo for example. He just isn't mentioned by anyone or quoted, nor does his writing appear very often outside the Wilber/Cohen circle. But then again there is a whole underground set of connections in the Zen hierarchy. For example Big Mind is used at Jan Chosen Bay Roshi's very mainstream Great Vow Zen Monastery but you *never* see that advertised, mentioned on the website or in any ads. [it is mentioned in this video as a workshop topic at timecode 9:22] So yeah the buyer not only has to beware but do some digging as well to find out what's really going on. Jello Biafra once said that if you don't like a certain television show, turn the channel and if you don't like the Dead Kennedys then put on a different record. You dont need to eradicate the things you are uncomfortable with in the world. If this Barry whoever is bothering you then dont go to him as a teacher. Simple as that. When you begin to round up a posse and demand that everyone be just as outraged as you are then you are the problem. Sooner or later those sort of witch hunts turn on themselves and everyone get a taste of burning at the stake. Do the best YOU can in your life, spread the word if you must, but demanding that others to join in your crusade is where it gets scary. Please note that Brad never asked anyone to hate Genpopo, he put forth his view and facts and figured you would either be outraged or not, at the end of the day he didn't denounce anyone who decided not to agree with him. I don't know who Barry is or anything about him, but if what he did is criminal then you should call the cops, if its merely morally reprehensible then don't patronize his services and spread the word in a reasonable way, more than that and you are causing harm, in my opinion. Fake R @ 5:42 up here - I must've missed ashiq chris. Didn't read much. R @ 7:49 am says: “I don’t believe you can’t apply it to others, and I have a good example of someone who did, successfully”. There you are. First real R then fake R then real R then fake R, these R's R taking over this blog! Anon Bob @ 1:12 pm & Uku @ 1:27 pm: - What Brad is saying is not about Prajna. Brad kind of contradicts Sangai-yuishin and I’ve referred to this before but this is not the point. Brad’s idea is that even though his thesis may be wrong he found out the subsequent line of thought proves practical. - So even if his initial assumptions are wrong this somehow works. Perhaps (theoretically*) due to other reasons he does not know. So he’d follow the line of action that proved useful even if he doesn’t really know why or how it works. Even in case he’s wrong, - he might find the real reasons later. This is the rationale behind what he’s saying. [* Cause Brad does not seem to always tell us the truth. See mine @ 8:36 am.] And 6:36 is a fake. What is a pirate's favorite letter? R Funny name, - Siegel. Says who? Brad says: "to me the Genpo Roshi stuff is far easier to pin down. I can see simply by watching one of his Big Mind® videos that he is a charlatan." This is exactly how I feel about Graham. I've read his blog and watch the vid clips strewn about online, and all I can figure is that his accent is too seductive for Americans to handle. Scots are charming, no doubt. But the crap he says is almost invariably total bullshit. And your opinion about Merzel is simply that - your opinion. It doesn't "pin down" anything. Graham on the other hand has a half-dozen women testifying that he suckered and abused them, a dozen former students saying he deceived and stole from then, the only Zen teachers he's had any proven contact with disavowing him and worse, and a long trail of proven deceptions, thievery, and lies IN PRINT. How you extrapolate that this is somehow less convincing than your exalted assessment of Merzel is beyond me. So yeah, Brad, get your bullshit detector recalibrated, dude. Kevin said: "So, where was Brad's "bullshit detector"? and, Sometimes that detector just isn't sharp enough. The guys that are good at this, know what they're doing. It's dangerous." Despite his early nom de plume of Doubtboy, Brad has great faith and to his credit stands in polar opposition to dirtbags like Barry Graham even if he doesn't want to say so. Brad said earlier, "I don't even care if this idea is objectively true or not. I believe it is or I wouldn't use it. But even if it turns out I'm wrong, this way of thinking has been so incredibly useful I still wouldn't give it up." I think this is basic in Brad's philosophy and it doesn't seem much different from what the Baptists down the road believe. Put yourself in God's hands and get out of the way. What he wrote above seems to be a nice mental trick. But is it Buddhism? One of the best reasons for going after people like Barry Graham was stated eloquently by Carl Sagan. . People seek out a teacher at first... well... because they can acknowledge that there is something they don't know... and are willing to disconnect the bullshit detector to give the benefit of the doubt to the person representing the "tradition"... That is how people get hooked. That is how "zen Master Rama's" start. And most importantly, that is why teachers need to lead the charge against frauds and hucksters like Barry Graham. I havn't read so much of the C so I am not sure how the following would come off, however... What is a "zen" thing to do? I mean is "zen" about "zen" or is it about the universe everybody lives in? Is it aimed at itself or is it aimed at everything? Are you seeking to master some weird unclear thing called "zen" or are seeking to master living in reality? R. R I didn't even post the last one. I posted another one and it was there, and I don't even think I clicked PYC and it posted the new one, and the old one is gone. It's worse than trolls. Must be black magic, like you, or me or who? said earlier. Fucking sufis. 108 - you must not miss the 3rd link up on Brad’s post; I think mumbles will like the book I linked @ 6:30 am; (not joking) I linked the wrong song @ 7:00 am. Why are you being so mean, Brad? We want you to agree with us and save us from ourselves. Is that so wrong? Isn't that what a zen saviour is supposed to do? We need your validation because we are not sure enough of ourselves to believe our own opinions. Please help! Quit "copping out"! And there's another me up there too. [9:10 am] Real diligent T. Next is Zen. Wow Old Bamboozles... What a load of trolling crap. Do you actually think folks are waiting with baited breath for Brad's holy words to "save us from ourselves"...?? The issue is that Barry Graham is a obvious fake. Folks are just trying to understand why authentic teachers remain silent in regards to it... Jesus, it is even obvious from the blog's responses that even IF Brad came out endorsing Barry Graham, that people would still not buy "Dogo's" bullshit. If teachers can get together (as in the Aitken - Shimano letters) to call out another teacher on their bullshit, then why cant they come together to publicly decry outrageous frauds. And my post is gone again. It was there before “and”. I’ll try again. Zach, yours and others righteous indignation is pretty funny. Getting all worked into a lather like a bunch of tea partiers. Who gives a shit about "authentic teachers" whatever that may or may not be? Like Brad says there are legit ones who will bamboozle you, and fake ones who will enlighten. WTF? Grow ... You know why I mention this chapter. "Who gives a shit about "authentic teachers" whatever that may or may not be? Like Brad says there are legit ones who will bamboozle you, and fake ones who will enlighten. WTF? Name a fake teacher who has enlightened anyone? All you are saying is that there is no difference between real or fake, so who cares anyway... and THAT sir/ma'am, is a load of nonsense. According to Red Pine (the amazing Bill Porter, if you haven't already, go now and read everything he's writ) Bodhidharma was indeed a real person, born in 440 in Kanchi, the capital of Pallava, a kingdom in southern India. In his book The Zen Teaching Of Bodhidharma, Red Pine has found by accident in Huang-Po's Essentials on the Transmission of the Mind a collection of sermons attributed to Bodhidharma. Here is an excerpt from the Bloodstream Sermon: ...And this real body is your mind. And this mind, through endless kalpas without beginning, has never varied. It has never lived or died, appeared or disappeared, increased or decreased. It is not pure or impure, good or evil, past or future. It. Its like space. You can't possess it and you can't lose it. Its movements can't be blocked by mountains, rivers, or rock walls. Its unstoppable powers penetrate the Mountain of Five Skandas and cross the River of Samsara. No karma can restrain this real body. But this mind is subtle and hard to see. Its not the same as the sensual mind. Everyone wants to see this mind, and those who move their hands and feet by its light are as many as the grains of sand along the Ganges but when you ask them, they can't explain it. They're like puppets. Its theirs to use. Why don't they see ... - And if he’s a charlatan what about all the people he’s supposed to have transmitted. - Are they all charlatans as well? - Or has he fooled them into thinking they’ve been enlightened? - Or are they liars? It doesn’t seem to make sense. I don’t think you’ve ever referred to any of those questions. And - … on the other hand - … I can’t really understand how could this person whom I understand even his name isn’t true have fooled you into thinking he’s a master, assuming you met him personally, and as I got it you spent a couple of days together. Got it. FWIW. Zach: Running after one teacher because he has "transmission" and rejecting another because he doesn't is hardly discrimination. "Running after one teacher because he has "transmission" and rejecting another because he doesn't is hardly discrimination. It IS discrimination. HEALTHY discrimination. I want to KNOW if my teacher at least is who he says he is! If he is NOT, then it is healthy to discriminate. A person who just sees this guy's picture together with Brad might see this as an affirmation that the guy is at least honest. I'm not saying Brad should haunt him, (see pm’s @ 9:09 pm, perhaps others too) but I am saying he should make things clear for the record, especially since he's been engaged with him, it seems. I can not really see why otherwise, though Brad might have his reasons. Zach: Do you think Brad Warner is his "real name?" Thats his punk rock name like Jello Biafra. FWIW I think Tattoozen at 5:58 AM said it best. Change the channel if you don't like it. Exercise your free will that you claim this guy has control over. Brad has already chickened out of fighting Genpo Roshi (Remember when Genpo used to post his challenges here on the blog?), and now this? I'm losing respect for Warner. *burns Hardcore Zen t-shirts* I don't agree with changing the channel or turning our backs on what we see is wrong. It's not the same as not liking a band or a tv show. It's pretty much saying "hmm, that guy is pretending to be a zen teacher, and taking advantage of people? I'd rather not pay attention to that." That's plain ignorance to me. But, yeah, you have the right to look away of you want. I'm just putting the facts out there. Something I, and alot of others wish there was a long time ago. But you don't have to look. Sour grapes. You got too close and got your fingers burnt, now you can't move on. Quit giving this guy your energy, he's still using you. "After one of Genpo's students, Dan Hoen, started hanging out with Graham --- Graham denounced Brad in public several times -- I was present when he changed his whole position from "me and Brad are like that" to "Brad is a huckster". Barry went on to tell me Genpo was the finest Zen teacher he knew of and that he wanted to incorporate Big Mind at the Sitting Frog" no, actually... I have moved on.... I've been practicing under another teacher for 2 years now, and haven't thought much about the guy until I started receiving emails from girls with their stories of abuse. To me, it's worth the energy spend what I have been. When it was just me and a few others, I didn't give a fuck. But when I heard the stories of what was actually going on, that's when I decided to speak up. I got my fingers burnt a long time ago. I've moved passed that. I was actually already gone and moved on before any of this started to surface in 2008. When I left Phoenix, I was still under the impression he was an ordained monk. I left for other personal reasons. I'm just doing what I feel needs to be done. Take it for what it it's worth or change the website. "Buddhism teaches that what we get in life is somehow something we wanted"." This is want I think. Thanks for saving me the time to post it. make that what not want Brad: "Buddhism teaches that what we get in life is somehow something we wanted" (my bold) NellaLou's post at 10:58pm above might help - - "There is no karma without intention...The whole point, it seems, when Brad writes about the application of karma to himself is this. His intention." I think that's what Brad's getting at too. Happy Halloween! That was a nice little documentry in the last post. This current post reminds me of a book I read my freshmen year of college called On Course: Strategies for Creating Success in College and in Life by Skip Downing. I actually kept the book, because I found it inspiring and useful. There is a chapter that talks about how people that meet with difficult circumstances can either play the "victim role" or the "creator" role. Here's a quote "When people keep doing what they've been doing even when it doesn't work, they are acting as Victims. When people change their beliefs and behavoiros to create the best results they can, they are acting as Creators...When you accept personal responsibility, you believe that you create everthing in your life...Would it improve your life to believe that you create all of the joys and sorrows in your life? Answer 'Yes!' and see that belief imporve your life." Then the chapter goes on about the different attitudes of the Victim and Creator, but I'm not about to go through them all here. It's late and I need to go to bed. So, Brad, your wanting to die or be dead caused some guys to beat you up with the intention to kill you? Are they then not at fault? "Buddhism teaches that what we get in life is somehow something we wanted" Brad, may I inform you that your statement is misinformed. The Buddha taught that life in this world is characterized by eight kind of suffering: 1)Suffering of Birth 2)Suffering of Old Age 3)Suffering of Sickness 4)Suffering of Death 5)Suffering of being apart from the loved ones 6)Suffering of being together with people that one dislikes 7) Suffering of not getting what one wants 8)Suffering of the flouishing of the Five Skandhas. Life is full of shit. We don't always get what we want. So, Brad, your wanting to die or be dead caused some guys to beat you up with the intention to kill you? Part 1 - I'll take the liberty of editing some of what Brad wrote: "I have often said that I believe whatever we get in this life is, at some level, something we wanted or needed. When I say this I am only applying it inwardly to myself...I often look at myself when I'm in a shitty situation and ask, "In what way did I want or need this shitty thing to happen?" ...when I apply this view to myself, my own suffering becomes much easier to bear. I remember... ...after the attack I thought to myself, "Buddhism teaches that what we get in life is somehow something we wanted, how does that apply here?" When I began framing it this way to myself I felt like less of a helpless victim and more like a person who could do something active to improve his own life. And I did...For the first time in my life I stopped feeling like a victim of circumstance and really took control of my fate. I don't even care if this idea is objectively true or not. I believe it is or I wouldn't use it. But even if it turns out I'm wrong, this way of thinking has been so incredibly useful I still wouldn't give it up." Part 2 - Seems to me Brad's saying that seeing yourself as a victim of random events can leave you confused, helpless and miserable. But understanding the Buddhist idea of the inter-connection of all things, including our own intentions, desires and actions, provides a model of how and why things happen "to us" that, by including our own 'wilful' behaviour, can give us a perspective in which the events of our lives are as much the result of what we intentionally did - as the result of what we've previously 'wanted' or 'needed' - as of what what others intentionally did - as the result of what they wanted or needed. Why are we where we are in the first place? Solely as a result of 'circumstances beyond our control', or have our volitional/intentional actions (what we have 'wanted') play a part too? I think Brad's saying that, looking at random, particularly unpleasant, events as being "somehow"/"at some level something we wanted or needed" has proved, for Brad, to be a useful and constructive approach - even if it's not an accurate/'true' model of how and why things happen (and what model is?). Brad's not giving a lecture on the doctrine of Karma, but providing one example of how his understanding of the Buddhist idea of the role of (co-dependently-arising) volition/intention/desire/need/wants in what we usually see as 'things that happen to us' has enabled him to be happier. That's how it reads to me, anyway. Hey 108 - I thought you didn't believe in free will? Don't start. Interesting. Here is a "LoL"... Seems like Barry "Dogo" Graham bout his Kesa from Ebay. He even gave the seller a review - and signed his name to it... *facepalm* *bought* rather... I have fat fingers this morning.:) Of course, I’m sure Genpo and his butt-buddy Ken Wilber will end up on Oprah before then. I can't speak for Brad, but: My intentions aren't always readily apparent. I have a penchant for crappy emotionally abusive relationships. If I'm not mindful (there's that dirty word again) of my actions, I'll choose to be around people who also like crappy emotionally-abusive relationships. Why? Because I dig the rush of adrenaline from fighting and the rush of dopamine/endorphins/oxytocin that comes with make-up sex. Righteous anger followed by dirty/guilty/pissed-off poontang is... well, it's just tops. It's the bee's knees. I also get something out of overbooking myself. Living my life in a never-ending crisis mode makes me feel... busy. And busy is important, so I must be important. It also means I'm a victim of being busy, so I always have a ready-made excuse if I fuck something up: not my fault, I have to rush. Posting know-it-all comments on a stranger's blog, such as I'm doing right now, also provides cheap thrills. I can argue self-righteously because the bit of my brain that tones shit down for social cohesion gets turned off when the exchange is through an impersonal medium, such as the Internet. My frontal lobe was designed by evolution to run permutations of future outcomes based on my previous experiences to figure out what I should do in the present moment. It's the miracle that has made humanity what it is, and it's about as good at predicting the future as a Magic Eight-Ball. It wildly overestimates benefits and underestimates costs, or vice versa: good for ensuring procreation and survival, not so good the rest of the time. Especially because it runs on my previous experience. So if I've only ever been in emotionally-abusive relationships, I simply don't know there's another way to be in relationship with people. That happens with everything. I always assume the way I do things is the best way to do things because I don't know it can be done another way. I'm not a zen-genius, but isn't this that whole "Zen mind, beginner's mind" thing? A beginner actively recognizes he doesn't know and actively seeks to learn. The guy who's been doing it for years is stuck where he is because he doesn't realize there's more he could learn if he dropped his old ideas, assumptions, theories, hypotheses, paradigms and assorted mental crap? So yeah: I dunno about you, but I certainly end up with crap I want, whether it's a conscious wanting or whether it's an unconscious one. Maybe y'all know better, but... because I'm a skeptic and a cynic and a bitter asshole ranting on the internet, I sincerely doubt you do. Hi 108: Of course our actions play the big part in where and who we are. But what I find so interesting about Brad's scenario is his being able to adopt a fantasy and accept it as real in order to move through life a little more expediently. He doesn't care if it's true or not. I sort of admire this because it is very practical and is based on Buddhist ideas and that makes it a little more palatable for me. But after everything is said and done, it is only a mental trick, just as crazy as believing that jesus has died on the cross to save us. Well.. maybe not that crazy but still.. CAPTCHA : ohrici : I kid you not Hi AB, "(Interesting that Brad is)...able to adopt a fantasy and accept it as real in order to move through life a little more expediently. He doesn't care if it's true or not." Brad did say, "I don't even care if this idea is objectively true or not. I believe it is or I wouldn't use it." But you're right that he also said, "But even if it turns out I'm wrong, this way of thinking has been so incredibly useful I still wouldn't give it up." - which does seem to contradict the first part. But he's just trying to be honest, I think, and when you do that, you often contradict yourself. I find. I hear this part of Brad's post as confessional rather than didactic. None of us have to think how Brad does, or adopt the inconsistencies Brad confesses. Didn't the Buddha say that his teachings are just a vehicle to get to the other side, and that once you get there it's about as useful to carry them around as it is to carry around a boat on dry land? Karma, rebirth, the Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, the Precepts... they're just ideas to get us somewhere. If they work, great, use 'em. If they don't, find other, better ones. Yes.. and like I said it is a rather graceful idea which I admire mostly. But it does take some mental adjustment to get there. At least for me it does. If Genpo Roshi is really claiming ability to endow “Satori” within one hour, or even one day, or generally to whomever wishes, (which I do find hard to believe) see Mathew 20:20-23. “Ye know not what ye ask”. The joke is heavy, but few will get. And AC, - part of it becomes part of you, inherent, - no question of carrying it around or not carrying it around is left; - and as for - “If they don't, find other, better ones”, - the question is whether you can, and whether you can tell which ones are better. - About the worst thing about humanity is that it can't see its own blindness. In my view. And the second is it won't admit wrongness even when it does see it. - Because tought otherwise. And: - R @ 8:44, – [am] “Matthew”, - not “Mathew”. Else is right. ROFLMAO [M-F] If you were able to experience the totality of an entire lifetime as if it were one breath, then most of the details would seem quite minor. They all contribute to the big picture, but only in a supporting role. ! Man has willed Man!." - A. Spare i know what you mean about the philosophy of the victim and all of the stuff you just can not say because too many people won't understand all of the stuff that can't be said about it correctly. it's like there are no words. i was abused as a child and while i know i never asked for it or did anything to deserve it, something inside me feels some comfort knowing that there's a purpose or meaning or ripening of some karma there somewhere that helped me do something i wouldn't have been able to otherwise...or helped me help someone else. Great Post by James Ford over at Monkey Mind It's All in Your Head: A Meditation on Blaming the Victim as a Spiritual Practice Here is another way to look at it.. if you are walking along the street and trip over a rock, fall down and bust your ass - do you blame the rock? Do you need to forgive the rock? In reality, "forgiveness" is nothing more than the pacification of spurned entitlement. Forgiving someone for killing your mother doesn't bring your mother back to life. All it does is pacify your sense of being entitled to respect and consideration from other people. If you had no expectations of people acting in a civilized manner, then you would not need to forgive them when they act like murderous animals. Yet people feel entitled to civilization. They feel they deserve it, that it is their right, as if it is a cosmic law of some sort. But if a shark bites a chunk out of your leg while you are swimming in the ocean, do you need to forgive the shark? The shark is just being a shark. In this sense, everyone is like that rock in the road. You cant blame them for anything that happens to you, in the same way you cannot blame yourself for anything that happens to you. It is the process of life itself happening, and all the various ideas of "people" and "me" and "you" and "world" and so on just get in the way and make things infinitely more confused. And when your entire life flows from the level of self image, there will be no end to the suffering it causes. It is ignorance begetting more ignorance, and pain magnetizing with itself. The entire idea of blame and forgiveness is a mirage caused by the self image. So essentially, it DOES begin and end within you - regardless of how righteously indignant that perspective causes people to react. If you are too fragmented to remember the possible results of your chosen vector, you will never understand why the process exists in the first place. The attitude and content of this post is exactly why I don't bother reading this blog much any more. Even when I was more appreciative and a fan of Brad's, his take on what happened to him in Akron was something that bothered me. I find it rather along the lines of The Secret style magical thinking. I do believe karma and intention play a role in much of what we experience. But not all, at least not in the sense implied by this. Even Buddha attested to this, as NellaLou points out. Some "karma" -- such as natural forces -- has nothing to do with our thoughts or intentions. I don't think that expedient magical thinking has anything to do with Buddhism. I embrace Buddhism, Zen in particular, precisely because of its focus on truth. I prefer an uncomfortable truth to a comfortable lie. It's scary to think that bad things can happen to us for no moral reason. It's disempowering, definitely. It ruins our overwhelming desire to believe in a "just world." But that doesn't mean it's not the way things are. More and more, I find the study of evolution, science, and natural history to go hand in hand with my Buddhist practice and inquiry. And the more I learn about science, the more I appreciate that a mystical or spiritual perspective can grow out of it. And if you "believe" in evolution, as opposed to some form of creationism, you accept that chance and probability play major roles in the development of life. That is not to say life itself is random--the way I think of it spiritually is that what we are was "programmed" or "coded" into the universe from the beginning--but that what particular events lead to it are. The way I get around the dilemma that Brad poses--of not letting an experience of victimization become demoralizing--is not to resort to magical thinking. It's to look at what I can do to improve my situation and reduce the odds of experiencing whatever it was. Much of the time, I find I played a major role in the series of events leading up to the problematic event. But not always. Sometimes you have an auto accident because you were driving while sleep deprived; sometimes you have an auto accident because a deer happens to randomly jump out in front of your car. I think the problem is looking at an event like the latter and trying to tie it to something one was responsible for. The Secret and the "Law of Attraction" encourage this kind of confused thinking, and Brad seems to do so too. But all the positive thoughts in the world aren't going to affect whether it's your car the deer jumps in front of. Brad calling upon this attitude to justify his lack of interest in the Barry Graham situation is something I find hypocritical, but this is in keeping with what I've come to expect from Brad. I find it a symptom of cowardice. In many ways, Genpo is an easier target. There's no real backlash for attacking him. Brad opening up a line of criticism against Barry Graham would open him up to a lot more things than Brad's criticizing of Genpo. To me, that is the only reason. If Brad is so blase about people needing to be responsible for their own choices and research when assessing Zen teachers, he wouldn't continually return to his quixotic crusade against Genpo, which he repeatedly attributes to his felt duty to protect people from spiritual abuse like he experienced in the past. There's something very nearly silly about the whole Genpo issue. When I saw Genpo's audition video for Oprah, I laughed. Yes, Genpo offers up some blatant spiritual materialism, but at worst he's going to waste some folks' time and money. The Graham issue opens up a lot of darker and more unsettling things to examine, and the consequences are potentially uglier. Genpo is just a Daruma doll Brad can knock down again and again to "energize his base." I find it all self-serving, part of the industry of "self promotion above all" that Brad has developed around himself. Stephanie: You're playing a zero-sum game which I don't think Brad or anyone else is advocating. It's not like "Either you're 100% to blame or you're not." But I do think that everybody plays some part in the stuff that happens to 'em. A deer can't jump out in front of my car if I don't drive down that road, I don't drive in the countryside, I don't drive... ... the point is to take ownership for your part of what happens to you. A deer jumps out in front of my car - I can't control the deer, but I can drive slower and I can recognize that driving a car entails some degree of risk. If I don't want to run the risk of hitting a deer, I shouldn't drive a car down that road. The problem is that people want all the benefit and none of the drawback. I believe this is known in Buddhism as the "Second Noble Truth." And people being people are absolutely brilliant at deluding themselves into thinking they can have it. And: it takes 2 to tango. You can't have a psychotic ex-girlfriend or -boyfriend unless you (at some point) attracted to you, were attracted to, and chose to date, a crazy person. I could be way off the mark, but I think Brad's saying that the same is true of spiritual teachers. If he isn't, I'm saying it. You don't drink the Kool-Aid unless you abdicated responsibility a long time ago. There's plenty of literature on this subject: "The Guru Papers" by Kramer and Alstad, "Do I Need a Guru?" by Mariana Caplan... what's funny is that us "spiritual" types think we're somehow evolved while ordinary folks seem to avoid these poisonous relationships without even trying. Ashiq, Yes, you could avoid ever hitting a deer by never driving a car through a rural area. I don't think that makes a person "responsible" for the random event of a deer jumping in front of his or her car. By your logic, the way to avoid ever tripping and falling is to never walk, the way to avoid ever getting sick is to live in a plastic bubble. There is no practical application of your point of view, because the only way to completely avoid the chance of negative outcomes of random or probabilistic events is to never do anything. And I find it a morally repulsive view when it comes to victims of random, or even non-random, violence. To me, the much more sane way of addressing these issues is to treat them as social issues and proceed accordingly, not shrug off with a "thugs will be thugs, it is our responsibility to find a way to avoid them" philosophy. I think it is our general human duty to make our communities safer, and much moreso for those of us who have made the bodhisattva vow. I do not believe a bodhisattva with a clear view would take a neutral stance against a victimizer, while imploring the victim to consider his or her role in the attack. Yes, part of the response is to help the victim make choices so as to not find him or herself in harm's way again, but the brunt of the responsibility lies in the attacker's actions. In my view, a sane, moral person focuses on the attacker as the focal point of necessary action, not the victim. Otherwise, we encourage and promote a culture in which thugs have the control and the power, while potential victims must stay in their foxholes. An intolerable situation, and one that seems insane to most normal people, thankfully. As far as the Barry and Genpo issue goes, I'm far from advocating for Brad to start a PR campaign against Barry. I don't think Brad has anything useful to contribute to that collective action. I'm pointing out the total hypocrisy and inconsistency, however, in his defense of his crusade against Genpo in order to protect all the potential victims of Genpo's "scam," while shrugging off a teacher accused of far worse as a "buyer beware" situation and inviting victims of violence to look at their victimization as, at least in part, their responsibility. Brad's stance is completely logically and morally inconsistent. If Brad were to be consistent, he would carry his apathetic attitude toward social and political issues, and most spiritual Zen issues, through into his approach to Genpo. But if Brad didn't have Genpo to rail against, a convenient, easy, and non-threatening target, he would lose a big part of what makes up the "Brad Warner" brand, which I increasingly see as a shiny, empty package filled only with air. Hi Stephanie, I don't hear Brad advocating a method for apportioning moral responsibility. I hear Brad posing a question in response to a comment on this blog: Once an unpleasant event has occurred, how then do we deal with it? As victims, or as contributing participants? Which approach is more likely to result in a view which can be employed to constructively modify our behaviour? Brad answered the question by describing an approach that works for him. From his post: ." (my bold). Could Brad have made it any clearer that he's writing about a way of thinking that he's found useful, NOT providing an analysis of the way the world works that should be applied to others, or that others should adopt? Re Genpo - Brad don't like what Genpo gets up to one bit. Re the other fella - Brad, it seems, isn't that bothered whether the guy has a transmission certificate or not (he may still be a good teacher), or whether he's lied about it (the cat's out of the bag). Brad knows no details about any abuse of students that may have taken place, so reserves judgement. He also says there's not much he could do about it that isn't already being done. So Brad doesn't care that much. And you're saying he should; lately you're thinking Brad is an inconsistent, self-promoting hypocrite... You may see Brad's objections to what Genpo gets up to as evidence of a general 'commitment to social and political issues' which should extend to the issues surrounding the other fella, but, clearly, Brad doesn't. Why should Brad's objections to selling/advocating enlightenment glimpses/experiences commit him to adopting positions on sundry issues? Merely because in both cases a teacher of Zen is involved? We care about what we care about, we do what we do, and we deal with things the way we deal with them. We don’t have to like what other people say, do or write, or the way they deal with things, but while you're perfectly entitled to object to what you see as contradictions, much of what you’ve criticised about this post wasn’t written or meant. Not as I read it. Malcolm it's the only completely uncensored Zen Buddhist forum I know of and because I like writing; I like the sound of my own voice. At least, I'm trying to find my own voice. This blog is crazy and infuriating. It's also an education and an entertainment. Mainly an entertainment...on a good day. Some of the other people who post here make comments I can engage with and relate to. Some of them are pretty funny too. I'm sympathetic and supportive of where Brad's coming from and what he's trying to do, and so I sometimes rush to defend him when I think he's been misunderstood or misrepresented. Still, I sometimes muse that Brad's celebrity may not be an entirely positive factor in his life - but Brad's life is not my business. Brad owes me nothing and I don't owe him. I do think he tries to be honest though, and for me, that's more important than always being consistent or right. Moral outrage comes in many forms, and like any other human expression it has countless subtle shades. At the core of moral outrage is the sense of entitlement accorded by the idea of a superior self, as in: a self that is better than others, more important, more valuable, etc. This reality might be hard to accept, when one realizes their entire life is based on a lie. Or it might be liberating. But as long as one is unable or unwilling to examine the root causes of their own mind and its workings, they will do nothing but wander amongst the details, poking and prodding and isolating and magnifying. The insidious nature of the divisive illusion is all-encompassing. It is the idea that "me" is separate from "you" or the "world" and so on. The objectification of such abstraction is usually the most "real" aspect of a persons life. Without it, they are reduced to little more than a vegetative state. The vastness of universal connectivity actually stupefies them. This blank space can come alive, or it can remain ignored - but in the great majority of the population it remains ignored, willfully. So its quite understandable why confusion happens and why it continues to happen. People are lost among the endless objects, as just another one of them. You do not own your body. Its just a temporary loan. Wake up to the reality behind "me", "my", "mine" if you can. If not, then go ahead and enjoy the war. Stephanie: I am a victim: I have a brain disease. I didn't want it, didn't do anything to get it, wish I didn't have, have suffered (greatly) because of it. I am also a victimizer: because my brain controls my behavior, and my disease affects my brain, my disease affects my behavior. And in this case, I hurt other people with my actions - my parents have been hurt by my actions, my ex-fiancee was hurt by my actions, my dog is now dead because of my actions. Or: criminals. In this country, they're overwhelmingly poor, black or Hispanic, under- or uneducated, jobless, ghettoized: victims of our failures as a society. And yet - they commit crimes. Often against each other. Often violent crimes. Often violent sexual crimes for that matter. Which are they: victim or victimizer? I'm not Brad, so I'll speak for myself: I think that a bodhisattva counsels both victim and victimizer on their respective responsibility for the suffering they cause and the suffering they suffer so that each can do something about it. The reason a bodhisattva talks to a victim is that a victim can often lessen their suffering by (at least) seeing if they play a part in it. In my case, I'm responsible for treating my brain disease - to lessen my own suffering, as well as that of others. As for Brad talking smack about Genpo but not about Barry, well... since I've never been inconsistent or hypocritical in my life, I think I'm morally pure enough to cast the first stone, so hand it here... PS and for the record - I wrote "...Which approach is more likely to result in a view which can be employed to constructively modify our behaviour?" ? What a crock. I doubt whether anyone can employ a view to constructively modify behaviour. Whadya think, Steph? "The reason a bodhisattva talks to a victim is that a victim can often lessen their suffering by (at least) seeing if they play a part in it." There is some truth to this. Where it often goes off the rails is when there is some kind of presupposition of omniscience or fortune telling, meaning "They should have seen it coming" kind of thinking. That just doesn't happen. Not everyone has the same life experiences from which to draw conclusions nor to be able to predict another's or random behavior from the environment. Human beings just aren't that powerful though we like to think we are often. So taking responsibility from a victims point of view is rather constrained by whatever available information is at hand. To hold someone responsible for something they could not have possibly known is quite ridiculous. I may be beating a dead horse here, but that mindset "in what way did I want or need this" is very existentialist in nature. In my own mind, existentialism and Buddhism are practically synonymous. I guess this is my chance to ask if I am that far off. Am I? To understand that Karma exists and that we each reap the fruits of our past actions has nothing to do with Blame. Blame as an act of attributing fault; censure; reproof: Saying there should be no compassion because you have judged that a victim “deserved” what has happened to them is simply another set of delusions that need to be overcome. Leave such value judgments to the theists who see ones fate as punishment or reward by some all powerful judging God. You may be experiencing the fruits of prior actions, it may be your Karma, But Buddhism dose not attach value judgments to this, it is not the Buddhist concept that those who are experiencing karma “deserve” this or that, Karma is not punishment or reward. It is simply cause and effect. To have the clarity of mind to diagnose your own thoughts and behavior to avoid mistakes of the past is another subject completely. If in doing this you begin to lose sight of your goal and start “blaming and judging” you will have missed the mark completely. The first Zen Buddhism lectures in the US, as far as I know were given by Soyen Shaku in 1905 and published in 1906, the translation being done by D.T. Suzuki. Shaku was and still is often attacked for his support of Japanese military expansion during the Russo–Japanese War of 1905. It seems that making subjective evaluations of teachers who don’t fit into our mental expectations traveled with Shaku when he came here and it seems to never stop. I had never heard of Dogo Barry Graham until I inadvertently ran across a blog dedicated to his utter destruction the other day. The blog started out by accusing him of wearing a terrible colored Rakusu, then accused him of putting his chop on several Rakusu’s crooked, and leaving a line off of a Kanji. But my Favorite was the 3 paragraph forensic analysis of some letters from a couple of his teachers that the author concluded must be fake because they were done on a laser printer, and laser printers were not commonly available in 1994. I had to laugh my ass off here because I purchased my first HP 4L laser printer in 1991, and by 1994 they were the professional standard and you could pick up at least 5 different models at office depot. This Guy Dogo might be a total ass, but these attacks I read are just malicious BS. Like Brad I have to say the Genpo Roshi stuff is so glaring it almost blinded me when I first saw it. PT Barnum said there was a sucker born every minute and I suppose he was right. The world is full of victims and it is certain many are both willing and enthusiastic in their search to be victims. People like Sogyal Rinpoche and Genpo should be exposed but what anyone person can do, even the mighty Brad Warner is very limited. I agree with Brad that The Soto Zen Buddhist Association’s (SZBA) effort to weed out the fakes is doomed to failure. Already this effort has turned into an exercise in wall building. They who never had to do half of the things they want to require of others sit smugly sealing up the door so they are the new dictators of Zen. Many crooks and charlatans love complex credentialing, the more paper they can hang on their walls the better. The simple fact is I could make a wonderful case against almost any teacher now teaching and question their linage, their teacher’s qualities of character and their spiritual fitness to teach. This Brad Warner guy lets rip him apart, hell how many Ango had he lead when he was ordained, etc. etc. Organized Zen is about 50 years old in the US; all this stupidity may kill it before it has had a chance to really grow. When up is up and down is down and down is up and up is down - I cannot be found. WAKE THE HELL UP!!!! "Truly beginning the practice anew, we learn that somehow we have been the victims of our own thinking." Aitken Roshi

LES KAYE’S LETTER IS UNBELIEVABLY IRRESPONSIBLE No one commits suicide for a single reason. No one. Never. In my book Zen Wrapped in Karma Dipped in Chocolate I wrote about my friend Robert “Iggy” Morningstar committing suicide. Iggy’s girlfriend had just broken up with him. She did it as much for Iggy’s good as for her own. I was sharing a place with them at the time and she was absolutely justified in what she did. Iggy was making a mess of his life and hers as well. When Iggy killed himself he did the deed in such a way as to ensure that his girlfriend would be the one who found him and that it would appear as though he killed himself because she broke up with him. In the weeks that followed those of us who were around Iggy’s girlfriend had to constantly assure her that she bore no guilt in the matter. Perhaps the break up was a factor in Iggy’s suicide. But it was not the only factor or even the decisive one. On February 14th, 2011, Dosho Port put a letter written by Les Kaye of the American Zen Teachers Association (AZTA) to the board of directors at Kanzeon, Genpo Roshi’s temple, on his blog. You can find that post here. This same letter from Les Kaye also appears here on the Sweeping Zen website. Les Kaye’s letter was written in response to accusations by some people at Kanzeon that AZTA had failed to respond when they knew that Genpo Roshi was having sex with his students and misappropriating funds. Les Kaye points out in the letter that AZTA had been trying to get Genpo’s authorization to teach Zen revoked at least since 1992. I understand Les Kaye’s desire to clear AZTA’s good name. But one section of his letter strikes me as perhaps the most irresponsible thing I’ve seen come out of this whole mess. It makes me very angry to see this. In his letter, Les Kaye reveals the story of a woman who was allegedly seduced by Genpo Roshi. Kaye says that she “had been abused by her father as a child, which left her extremely vulnerable and confused.”.” Although he uses the proper somber, sepia colored tones of heartrending melodrama approved by contemporary American Buddhists, Mr. Kaye appears to me to be accusing Genpo Roshi of causing this poor woman to kill herself. Please see the opening two paragraphs of this article for my opinion on that. I know that the effect of what Mr. Kaye wrote is to make people think that Genpo’s sexual behavior caused a suicide because that is precisely how it was defined to me by two people who emailed me about these articles. I don’t like Genpo Roshi. I’ve made no attempt to hide that fact. But accusing him of causing someone to commit suicide is taking things much too far. We do not know what really transpired between Genpo and that unfortunate woman. I’m going to say that again and I’m going to be a little firmer this time. You -- and I mean you dear reader, whoever you are -- do not know what happened between Genpo and that unfortunate woman. If Genpo is reading this (which I doubt) maybe he has some clue. But even he doesn’t know all of it. The rest of us only know what we’ve read about it. And that is not very much.* Am I trying to say that it’s fine that Genpo seduced some poor woman who’d been abused by her father? No. No, I am not saying that. No. OK? Not at all. No. I’m saying that we do not even know that’s what really happened. Maybe it did. Maybe it didn’t. We don’t even know what that woman actually said at the meeting. All we have is someone’s paraphrase of what he thought he heard her say 18 years ago. Which is also not to say it did not happen or that I don’t believe what she said. I don’t know what she said. So I cannot either believe or disbelieve it. But I do know what Les Kaye said because it’s there on the Internets for all to see. There is no reason to add this to the piles of accusations that have already been hurled at Genpo. Believe me, I am not someone who would easily stand up in Genpo Roshi’s defense. But this is too much to ignore. Why is it all about sex? Why do we have to wait until Genpo is caught with his pants down and his dick where it shouldn’t be before we can say anything about the much more serious and far-reaching abuses he was involved in?. The hidden details of Genpo’s sex life had nothing at all to do with any of that. The things that Genpo was doing that made me so pissed off were not concealed in any way. They were right out in the open. He explicitly advertised that he was selling enlightenment experiences for $50,000**. He clearly said in his promotion material for Big Mind® that it could give you a glimpse of Buddha’s realization in a couple of hours with no prior experience. This was no shocking revelation discovered by someone finding secret messages on Genpo’s Blackberry. This was stuff you could see for yourself by looking at Genpo’s own website. Where was everyone’s righteous indignation three years ago? The AZTA has written a letter to Kanzeon, Genpo's group, recommending what they think Genpo ought to do to cure his sex problem. You can see that here just under Les Kaye’s letter, at the bottom of the page. My friend Zuiko, one of the signees, told me the letter.” OK. I accept that Zuiko contributed to the letter in this spirit. To me it all sounds a bit sanctimonious. Hey Genpo, here are my recommendations, which stand just as much chance of being read and followed by you as AZTA’s. I have a lot of trouble with phrases like “sex addiction.” Though there may be a few cases that could qualify as true addiction, I believe that for the most part it’s just that some people are simply hornier than others. When an individual has a different sexual orientation from mainstream society, there are two main ways to deal with it. The individual can adjust to mainstream society, usually with unhappy results for the individual. Or the individual can seek out others who share their orientation and they can play together. (There is, of course, also the traditional religious response of learning to deny your sexual desires entirely. But few people are able to accomplish this. And sometimes when they fail at denying their desires the outcome is even worse than if they had not tried at all.) Luckily for you, you live in the Western world in the early 21st century where the option of seeking like-minded play friends is available to you. It is far easier than it ever has been for so-called “sex addicts” to find each other. You don’t need to do your students.. Fortunately for you that particular kink is very widespread and common. (You learn a few things when researching a book about sex!) *It was subsequently revealed by a friend of the woman in question that her suicide occurred quite a long time after the meeting and was probably completely unrelated to what transpired with Genpo. **The fee for Genpo's Big Heart Circle retreats subsequently dropped to $25,000 and these days it’s hard to find any of the material he originally posted about these high priced retreats. Here is a blog which quotes most of Genpo’s now-vanished sales pitch for the Big Heart Circle retreats. The standard price for Big Mind® appears to range between $150 and $1000. .) P.S. The broken links are now fixed. Thanks for the email, Spice! 98 comments: Somebody call/mail Brad and tell him the links in his blog post don't work. You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger. You will not be punished for being a sanctimonious plagiarizing douche. Being a sanctimonious plagiarizing douche is its own punishment. - “No one commits suicide for a single reason. No one. Never.” - What kind of bullshit is that? - See SS, B. 1, no. 90. - And with a slight Googlin: "I have a lot of trouble with phrases like “sex addiction.” Though there may be a few cases that could qualify as true addiction, I believe that for the most part it’s just that some people are simply hornier than others." Jesus Brad. Do you really know what you're talking about? I suppose the numbers of people with gambling problems are overstated too. Mostly just people with losing problems right? Alcoholics? People with no will power or self control. And we all know about the type of women who get raped.. Kaye wrote: .”" I don't have as big a problem with Kaye stating the facts in the chain of events. People can draw conclusions or do as you did and not. You are not the only critical adult reading this stuff. Is the suicide supposed to be hushed up in Zen circles? It facts sound bad because they were bad. Hi, I understand that White Plum, which is a loose confederation of teachers associated with Maezumi Roshi, is taking actions on its own. I am not sure who is involved or the details however. Gassho, Jundo “No one commits suicide for a single reason. No one. Never.” Yes and no. There are multiple events/reasons in a person's life that take them to the point of suicide. However, there is only one successful suicide per person, so there is usually only one trigger event. Hi, Here's a website where you can learn about ASIST suicide intervention trianing. The widepsread training days/workshops are usually free or come at low cost (over in these parts at least) and are very useful and insightful for anyone effected by suicide, or for anyone who works with people or who is just interested. In the US: In the UK: In Ireland: ASIST trains participants to reduce the immediate risk of a suicide and increase the support for a person at risk.. Regards, H. Drunkenness is temporary suicide.. - “No one commits suicide for a single reason. No one. Never.”. - What kind of bullshit is that? See SS, B. 1, no. 1. merciless, there is some interesting literature available regarding addiction which pits forward the idea that what is commonly called addiction is actually poor choices. Individuals are not powerless to change such behaviour, and labelling such choices as addictions in fact perpetuates this behaviour. This is rather controversial amongst the majority of clinicians working in the field. - SS, B. 1, no. 90, - not no. 1. "[Bertrand] Russell's adolescence was very lonely, and he often contemplated suicide. He remarked in his autobiography that his keenest interests were in sex, religion and mathematics, and that only the wish to know more mathematics kept him from suicide. ...From the wiki article on him. H. Sorry: Brad's being metaphysical. It's a Zen teaching on causation. With a bit of Googling I was able to find this, too. It gets deleted down here so I put it up at the “name”. (That’s why I got mistreated by Google in the first place) - “All of these AZTA people are getting upset about absolutely the wrong things. They should have been publicly stating that Big Mind® was not Zen Buddhism years ago.”. Than why? This is one point I’ve been wondering about Brad gives no explanation to. - “He explicitly advertised that he was selling enlightenment experiences for $50,000. He clearly said in his promotion material for Big Mind® that it could give you a glimpse of Buddha’s realization in a couple of hours with no prior experience.”. This seems like a bit of a withdrawal. See bolding. - “Why do we have to wait until Genpo is caught with his pants down and his dick where it shouldn’t be before we can say anything about the much more serious and far-reaching abuses he was involved in?”. - Again - my point from 10:27 - [am] if Brad is right about this - why is he the only one shouting about.”. Read the letter and see if this is what is sounds like. Just in case anyone imagines M @ 10:46 is relevant to mine @ 10:41: - The question was how much sense does Brad's quote I quoted @ 10:03 make. Taking a break from the comments eh? Sure you are... mine @ 10:21 - “I believe that for the most part it’s just that some people are simply hornier than others”. I loved that. But hated what follows. - B’s idea, - is that whatever your inclinations or tendencies are, - you can never change or improve them, no matter where you get, - in any field whatsoever. Not only zazen is good for nothing, - but any other practice you might think of. - And to (108 the) merciless @ 9:34: - [am] Remember we’ve heard of alcoholism since before either one of us was born, - I suppose. - Same might go for hopeless gamblers I guess. - But “sex addiction” seems to be a new phrase we only seem to encounter in the last decade or two. Sounds to me like a new idea of the typical conceited intellectuals. - I don’t know much about the subject but I’m quite with Brad on this point. + - [back to Brad] Brad seems to assume that since humanity has not been able to hold stable and continuous standards as for appropriate or inappropriate sexual behavior, - such may not be found in existence. [Or to pretend to assume that.] (- I’m a real trouble maker, - am I not?) - It is quite like assuming since many do not know the Buddha Dharma it does not exist. Not just the same but I guess you can grasp the similarity. - It is true some things may change due to development in humanity, - but mainly this is claiming the subtle to be nonexistent for the sake of popularity. May be fine for anyone who can truly enjoy 0DFx. OK. So this is what I'm reading 1. Implication of responsibility in suicide is wrong 2. The emphasis on sexual misconduct is missing the point 3. The point is that packaging instant-enlightenment as Zen commodity is wrong a) Because instant-enlightenment is not a Zen perspective b) Because misleading people to believe this is true can be harmful to them What might help would be to speak more to point 3a) Why is instant-enlightenment wrong view? What is right view? and 3b) How is holding wrong view harmful? That might help your readers to make a more informed decision that avoids confusion about correct principles due to confusion about personality. Suggestion for increased effectiveness in message: Separate the principles from the personality to make your point more clearly understood to more people.. The society of traditional Japan was long held to be a good example of one in which shame is the primary agent of social control. I can see why Brad thinks that the idea of sex-addiction is just new-speak for mega-horniness but I'm not so sure he's right.. If you believe that a person can become psychologically dependent on certain behaviors and I think there is evidence for that, then I think that it is possible for someone to become addicted to certain experiences that release certain neurohormones. The only question would be; are you addicted to the experience or the rush of the neurohormones? Or is it the same thing? two aspects of the same process? For decades, endorphins have hogged the credit for producing “runner’s high,” that fleeting sense of euphoria and calm that many people report experiencing after prolonged exercise. Who among usI, after an especially satisfying workout, hasn’t thought, “ah, my endorphins are kicking in.” Endorphins are the world’s sole celebrity peptide.... Go read the article *I haven't. (humor) Brad, Can one be addicted to celibacy? ...about 'sex addiction' : "Though there may be a few cases that could qualify as true addiction, I believe that for the most part it’s just that some people are simply hornier than others." Whoa whoa whoa, hold on. I think everyone is focusing on the wrong thing here. ." Which websites are you talking about here? If sex were simply sexual Brad's post reads ok But sex is a many nuanced and complicated behavior between persons Depending on what kind of circumstances were present during one's first sexual arousal and release states you can get some strange imprinting which factors in to your behaviors I am glad for 12 step programs sex and love addicts anonymous--of tremendous benefit-- I do not think it is possible to judge others sexual dispositions Sometimes it is not possible to clearly know who the victim or who the perpetrator is Humans have quite the ability to see the same things with exact opposite interpretations I can't judge other people's sexual involvements. Only my own I might not fully know my patner's intentions...I might find out later. I am in a position to know my own intentions. If I had a more active libido I'd be living a different life I think it would make me more popular, but who knows I do think it is important to take responsibility for one's actions particularly when cobbling together different life styles where sexual intimacy is concerned. Couples decide for themselves what works for them Sometimes finding out what that is includes collateral damage, namely other people and other people's relationships The mental image of a zen teacher (or catholic priest, or CEO of a company for that matter) sitting in a zendo, officiating mass in church, sitting in a board room with multiple persons with whom they have had sexual relations with present strikes me as strikingly odd and icky A bit too akin to familiar incest if you ask me ------- There is help out there "A bit too akin to familiar incest if you ask me" do you mean "child molestation" or did you really mean incest? The difference is that Incest, while icky and weird, is between consenting parties while child molestation is between a party that has not or can not give consent. Its an important difference. If both people are grown ups then they bear the right to take whatever decisions they choose, and to deal with the consequences. its a little scary to me that people make the argument that just because one person wears a funny robe and has a title that the other person in a relationship should be treated like a child. Is what you are doing "Zen Buddhism" Brad? Me thinks Brad doth protest too much... It seems obvious that Brad simply wants to propagate the Genpo scandal IN FULL by repeating what Les wrote, and his denial of agreement with it is simply subterfuge. I for one would not have seen it (Les's statement), or sought it out otherwise. We need that guy who kept obsessing on Brad's penis length to come back here and offer us some perspective on this mess. Brad, Can one be addicted to zazen? I'm serious. It doesn't do anything, but people have these subconscious hopes. Forgive them for they know not what they do. Brad- Beautiful post. I mean the part about Merzel's not being responsible for the woman's suicide. Dead on there. The other stuff I largely agree to the point of I guess it don't need sayin'. But I guess to you it does. To me, "Big Mind®" was a scam from the get-go. I think I get it for maybe different ways then you get it, but we both get it. But, as I wrote on my blog, the sex thing reveals something. And at the same time, neither you nor I can barely imagine the crap Genpo is going through these days - unless he's a friggin' psychopathic narcissist, which is not out of the question. But imagining this guy is one of us - I can't imagine the hurt I would be going through at this moment. Also - make no mistake: folks in Genpo's sangha read your blog; they read my blog. So it's more than likely Genpo reads your blog. I appreciate your passion on this; maybe I'll even send this comment in an e-mail to you. Anonymous Tonto said... "Brad, Can one be addicted to zazen? I'm serious. It doesn't do anything, but people have these subconscious hopes." Brad is distancing himself from the comments section. I would say it is possible to become addicted to ANYTHING - providing you have a compulsive-addictive personality disorder. Now a few things - nicotine being one - are so addicting that even people with moderate to light CAPD can become enslaved to nicotine. It's not quite like genetic OCD. As for Genpo and Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD)??? Who knows? Certainly not I. When viewed through the Right Mindful Filter Floss®, only a tiny minority are free from disorders, orders, or boarders. Brad Warner said.... LOL. What is "Zen Buddhism"? Ask 10 Zen teachers and you'll get 17 answers. Big Mind is no more or less "Zen Buddhism" than anything else anyone claims it to be. Despite the entire lineage nonsense, Zen teachers are really just making all this up as they go along, and have been ever since Hui-neng came along (assuming he ever existed). Steven Heine wrote a book about it: "Zen Skin, Zen Marrow: Will the Real Zen Buddhism Please Stand Up?" And now this: "Response to an Open Letter from 44 Zen Teachers." ^ I think they're showing that they have had enough of the outside do-gooder types offering, unsolicited, their opinions. Hi British Fool, I'm British...kinda. And I think so, too. From the response: "....." (my bold) Mysterion wrote: Perhaps where Genpo was remiss was in his apparent boundary violations - perhaps taking that which was the sangha's as his own. Those boundary violations included, but were not limited to allegedly exploiting his students emotionally, financially, and sexually. My take is that this is probably where Brad wanted to, albeit not clear enough. it is not the sex in itself which is "sinful", it is the being oblivious of the harm done unto others. If you are a buddhist teacher, your responsibility is greater just because you are a teacher. No one on earth is free to do harm onto others, buddhist or not. And who does will bear the consequences of it, with fortune if they can get them in a way clearly related to their deeds,. It sure sounds like the Kanzeon folks are doing there best. It is also true that they are probably best qualified to deal with there own problem. There must be a bit of embarassment as well because this sounds like a problem that they were ok with not dealing with it when it was benefiting them financially. It is a free country and people obviously get into talking about all this controversy because it is scanadoulous and sexy and an easy topic to feel help people feel better about themselves, or more moral, "I would never do such a thing", that kind of stuff. I just wonder if that's the best theme for the Hardcorezen Blog. I know these are all very recent developements and people are gonna talk about whats going on, but I hope it this blog doesn't become the TMZ of the Zen community. I know i have been criticcal of people who are on Brads case for not writting the right things or not being enlightened enough of what not, but yeah i have never been a fan of soap opera drama, weather fictional or real, and i just kinda hope this all starts to fade away soon. Sounds like things have been aired out and people are informed. Everybody kinda said there piece. peace ...a sanctimonious plagiarizing douche. LOL But it remains a fine teaching: “You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.” - Siddhartha Gautama Shakyamuni Swami Osama Van Halen said... I didn't even realize that Mr. Merzel was selling more than one "product" so let me make sure that I understand how this process works. First you buy a "Big Mind" and then you buy a "Big Heart"? Is there something "big" that comes after that? Maybe "The Big Lebowski"? That would be pretty cool, but only if Jeff Bridges was the instructor. Yeah, that's what Genpo got in trouble for: using his Big Lebowski. "When Iggy killed himself he did the deed in such a way as to ensure that his girlfriend would be the one who found him and that it would appear as though he killed himself because she broke up with him." Suicides are as much about causing suffering as they are about ending suffering. FORE! First of all only the person afflicted decides whether or not he/she is an addict. No one else. Hence only the person afflicted decides if their behaviour can be classified as addiction. Man oh man, the buddhist community is seriously dysfunctional! Gossip, back stabbing, name calling, sheesh... who knew? Cori Anonymous Anonymous said... "First of all only the person afflicted decides whether or not he/she is an addict." If only that were the case... "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt." I just love 12-step programs that replace one broken crutch with another broken crutch - it avoids the whole concept of responsibility. Let us prey... in the name of Tony Alamo (Lazar Hoffman), amen. cori - Not ALL of "the Buddhist community" are gossipers, back-stabbers or name-callers. You won't find so many of the quiet contented non-opinionated Buddhist types here...they don't usually post on blogs like this one. But point taken: even "Buddhists" are human. . " My reply to Moonface: Fuck 'experience'. Experiences can be misleading. The despire to repeat certain kinds of experiences is called addiction. Experiences can be manipulated Experience can be highly misleading. I once had fevers that went to 104 as measured by a thermometer, and though my body was blazing hot, I *experienced* my body as chilled to the bone, because my immune system was pumping cytokine compounds into my blood and these in turn were messing with the tempreture regulation center in my brain. I was misled by experience to feel chilly cold, when I was actually roasting. Instead of doing what I had to do to cool down, I rolled in blankets lay next to a heater and had temporary brain damage that left my tripping and falling over sidewalk cracks. Luckily this was temporary. So experience can be misleading as living hell. And, FYI, I was in a room with a guy who was an expert at trance induction, and I could barely keep my pen in hand to take notes. By contrast, I was far more alert and able to write after being doped with tranquilizers for a medical procedure. Genpo, by advertising his method as insta enlightement, and charging the kind of money he does and calling it Zen has violated many of the Bohdisattava Precepts and failed to preserve the Treasures. Here as a memory aid are the precepts. I take refuge in Buddha, The Dharma and the Sangha. I vow to Avoid All Evil and Cultivate All Good In the Live for the benefit of all beings (not just the wealthy) To uphold forms and ceremonies and this includes not allowing ones own career or personality to become a distraction from the Dharma I vow to beware of Killing Lying (and this includes misleading gestures and misleading silences) Taking what has not been freely offered Beware of abusing sexuality Beware of darkening mind and body of self and other with intoxicants (which today include manipulated experiences of ecstacy, group thrills, trance, charisma, rhetoric and the pursuit of intoxicating fame/celebrity and mass marketing) Beware of speech that brings injustice and disharmony where before there had been justice and harmony Beware of praising self (or ones trademarked method) at expense of others Beware of harboring ill will (by insinuating that people lower on the pecking order suffer from green memeitis Beware of greed in relation to resources (and this includes greed for fame, media exposure, wealth, glamour and greed to rise higher on some abitrary 'evolutionary' scale or greed to get higher on Ken Wilbers rank scheme And..to defend the Treasures of Buddha Dharma and Sangha such that One does not distort Buddhadharma by suggesting additions that are any different from the guidelines left by Buddha in the Mahaparinbibbana Sutra Whatever rank exists is not to give comfort to the powerholder but to support the practice of all, regardless of age, health, whether rich or poor. Finally, Dogen advised to avoid fame. If Genpo wants fame, its best that he leave Soto Zen. However, he gained his early fame while in Soto Zen and his later adverts showed him in his Zen Dharma Transmission robes. Gaining fame while standing on the shoulders of Soto Zen is not cricket. That was the real problem. Hey 4.43pm, Your version of the precepts makes a few suggestions and additions that are different from the guidelines left by Buddha in the Mahaparinbibbana Sutra. You really shouldn't do that, you know. which version? Versions Right now I am reading Flaubert's book, "The Temptation of Saint Anthony." I've wanted to read this book ever since it was mentioned in an episode of Dragnet, In the episode a mopey high school kid engages in a thrill kill after reading the book. In the episode a librarian reads the page in the book that inspired him. It's always fun when a bird flies around the house, lands on your shoulder and says "Hi! What are you doing? tattoozen @ 4:08 "its a little scary to me that people make the argument that just because one person wears a funny robe and has a title that the other person in a relationship should be treated like a child" Not so much that one is being treated like a child as much as the acknowledgement that this is not necessarily a relationship between equals on a relatively equal playing field Same for the subordinates and the CEO example As expressed above, sometimes it is hard to distinguish who is the victim Persons in a position of power can also be victimized--by those who seek access to power through intimacy I am just saying that it is hard to tell sometimes who the victim is. The kneejerk reaction is to hold the person holding the more powerful position responsible. Understandable. I am pointing out that this is not always the case. There are exceptions. Sexual behavior between equals is one thing things become distorted the wider the power /privilege differential. Granted the distortion may be experienced by one or both participants as adding to the excitement. watcha gonna do? if your zen practice is based on heightened experiences, I guess you are going to look for heightened experiences the zazen I am familiar with is boring it isn't exciting to experience, it doesn't lead to particularly interesting states Not that the state of boredom is without interest to me... Proulx Michel ... I agree. I am glad Brad has addressed the issue of Big Mind. That he has done something to keep the finger pointed towards it, amidst the distractions and confusions of a single human being's very private, very public problems. The practices and discourses that help us shine a light on our own 'misfortune', our tendencies to blind ourselves to what 'relation' are gardens that need tending - lest too many of us stroll by, oblivious, into another 'too late'. Western liberalism and capitalism (to dust off a few more weather-worn words) to my mind go hand in hand: reshaping, renewing, reifying (ouch) the 'buddhisms' we may be fortunate or unfortunate to encounter, or that the worst or the best of ourselves (mis?)target on our way. The western 'individual' (which, yes, is a fiction here, factional) has seen the potential of Zen, hones a sophisticated stupidity, a new stagnancy, fresh hysterical responses to the plates left unwashed; nurtures the intellect under the guise of emptiness, re-translates grief into the play-pen of no-fault, and so on and so on. The flames may be at rest, at ease, but they do burn. "It's like I'm realising my worst fears about myself coming true" someone, an intimate, said to me yesterday. "It's a good job you're not yourself then." I replied, off-the-cuff, and we shared a smile (thank god!) That happened and it happened quite naturally. This morning, it was just something we said last night. I know that if I tried to repeat that situation, that mote of something in a similar situation, I'd deserve to feel like a prick. Sooner, hopefully, rather than later. More so, if I'd tried to justify it, one way or another (what with me being such a nice guy, a clever guy, quite often misunderstood.) I hated what Brad has written about Iggy but when DS has joined in that [9:32 pm] it seems it might be worth a response. Referring to the same quote DS quotes, - “When Iggy killed himself he did the deed in such a way as to ensure that his girlfriend … and that it would appear as though he killed himself because she broke up with him”. People don’t kill themselves for nothing. If a person goes as far as killing himself it would normally mean he was concerned with nothing else but what drove him into this, that it outshadowed his life, - that in his view there was no escape. Though this is not always true this is quite clearly iggy’s case. The idea that he “did the deed in such a way as to ensure that … it would appear as though he killed himself because she broke up with him” seems to suck as severely as possible. It seems much more probable that Brad & Co. were insincerely comforting the miserable girl. Relate to the story as to a koan - which version would make more sense? I haven’t read the book but Brad’s case doesn’t easily stand. Carefully phrased. One of my best friends killed himself at 34. I'm not sure it was bad for him. "Though this is not always true this is quite clearly iggy’s case." How in the hell would you know? What a pompous ass. You make Mysterion look like a Christian Saint. "It seems much more probable that Brad & Co. were insincerely comforting the miserable girl." This also goes too far. How can you possibly draw this conclusion? You are being insensitive to all people involved. Which do NOT include you. Talking about a situation you know nothing about is the epitome of foolishness. You, R, are a goddamn fool. Your opinions are worthless. SHUT THE FUCK UP. when it comes to Narcissistic Personality Disorders, these each take the cupcake. (e.g. close, but non of them take the cake). Narcissistic personality disorder )." source From Psychology Today (a.k.a Popular Psychology - as in Popular Mechanics, etc.) Now, without further ado, here are the top ten 'Popular Psychology' posts from 2010, as judged by page views: LINK Bitch ass. No such thing as sex addiction. Nobody commits suicide for a single reason. Shouldn't talk shit you dun't understand. Cocksucking celestial-wannabe. ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz 777777777777777777 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Reading all the snide comments from these cool cyber-Buddhists makes my head ache... Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurp! Khru, take a buddaspirin, and Seagal sounds like he needs a buddalka seltzer. What happened to this blog? Looks like it committed suicide. For several reasons. All the regulars are taking a break. The trolls are rampant. - “Though this is not always true this is quite clearly iggy’s case”. I thought this might be misunderstood. What is meant by “this is not always true” is that this would not necessarily apply in the case of a samurai performing Seppuku, in the case of Master Sensu jumping into the river I mentioned @ 10:05 am, [- “Sorry”] or in other cases very different from the ordinary [and I know some stupid is going to jump and say - “how can you say ‘ordinary’?” - but I won’t refer to that: - there’s a limit to the amount of explanations we can supply] way or form of miserable westerners killing themselves, sometimes for the silliest reasons, - generally not being able to attain this or that. So the sentence my unworthy debater is first concerned about could be seen as unnecessary. Take the sentence before the sentence both me and him have quoted: - Could you think of any case in which it would not be true? Other than a case of a truly great man which would clearly not apply to Iggy? So far as for the first quote. I hope you SWIM. - “How can you possibly draw this conclusion?”, - I said - “it seems much more probable”. - And if you still hold your question: - It is because I am not the miserable asshole you very definitely seem to be. - How about that? You - like many - seem to imagine the minds of others follow the patterns and standards of your own, - which is not necessarily the case. As the principle Dogen somewhere seems to mention, - weeds are abundant. - And now days are very confident too, - blindness assures and holds firm. Still - just for the record, - [but not for ykw @ ykw] I may be wrong. I think it tells from the original post. Notice the “name” I used there. [11:36] ♥ It looks a karmic heritage from Maezumi's way of life Hi moon face buddha, Lately I've noticed your posts here as well on ZFI, so I'm assuming you check in here now and again. I find ZFI's TOS and house style a tad restrictive (I'm not sure if I'd have to start another BW thread - I don't want to - where this comment 'belongs', and so forth*). So, as this place is a free-for-all I'm taking the liberty of quoting over here a snippet of something you wrote over there a short while ago: "...Genpo is still selling Big Mind (tm) and Brad is still selling Punk-Zen. I'm not buying either." What is "Punk-Zen"? I don't think Brad is selling "Punk-Zen". He IS selling books about Zen/Buddhism which include frequent references to his experience as a punk bass player in a punk band, and he does have an informal style of writing which might fairly be described as 'punk' (to me it just sounds informal, personal and a tad 'hip' - not exactly 'punk'. Whatever...). But the Zen/Buddhism that Brad writes about and tries to explain (teach?) in his books and his talks I would describe as Dogen's Zen as taught to Brad by his teacher. The style may be 'punk' to you and some others, but the content is 'Buddhist'. No? ...I know - you still ain't buying it. * If you fancy, suggest where I might post this on ZFI and...I may do. 108: Brad's problem is that Zen isn't for sale and Zen masters aren't supposed to covet fame. He said he needs to be famous to sell his books and he needs to sell books to make money. His unique skill set is such that he can make money writing about punk, Buddhism and lately sex. This isn't isn't an uninteresting formula but the formula could accurately be labeled "Punk-Zen" could it not? Hi merciless, I guess if the label "Punk-Zen" accurately sums up for you what Brad writes about and does, then...it's accurate. But to me the phrase sounds dismissive, and I don't like what Brad has to say - the substance of it - being quite so easily dismissed. Brad's life choices don't bother me. There are the books and this blog. I own and have read HCZ and I've read bits of the others. There are some good bits in the books...I mean bits I liked. I met and heard Brad talk three times when he came to London a year or so ago. Nice guy. Nice talks. But having read what he's written, having seen him in RL --> next thing. My own teacher has had much more influence on what Zen/Buddhism means to me, so I don't look upon Brad as my teacher, or any kind of authority or exemplar. But - whether I agree with his take on individual issues or not - I do value what he's saying and that he's saying it. I have no problem with punk, or sex, or anything at all being written about from a 'Buddhist' point of view. Neither - for me - does writing about those things amount to a "Punk-Zen formula". I don't see writing, publishing, promoting and selling books on Buddhism as a 'problem', although I can see how the concomitant fame/reputation might create difficulties. They're not my difficulties, though. And those things, in themselves, don't invalidate what Brad has to say. Not for me. Hi 108.. I rather like Brad when I'm not disliking him. :) I'm just getting tired of his shtick. Maybe the things that make him a good Buddhist hurt him as a writer. Always derivative, he has become calculated, formulaic, repetitive.. I think he might be played out artistically. Maybe he's only going through a rough patch before he FINALLY matures. I hear ya and understand whereof you speak, merciless. We'll see innit :) but I hope it this blog doesn't become the TMZ of the Zen community. This blog is more criticism of other teachers than anything else. It is kinda weird.

"I'm in what I think is an unusual situation. My first book was published by a small-but-respected publisher who subsequently ceased trading. [Gah.] My second book was - via an agent (which I didn't have for the first) - published in a foreign country, translated into their language. Said country are not into making a big fuss of "first time" authors (apparently my first book doesn't count), so it has been rather non-eventish for me. [Not sure if this is a line you've been spun - on the other hand, actually, most books are non-eventish and it's all somewhat in the eye of the writer]. No author publicity, no big marketing bucks, and sadly the book hasn't made much of an impact. No reviews apart from two critical Amazon reviews: a one-star and a three-star. Personally I think it was a bad translation (I happen to speak the language concerned) and was pitched at entirely the wrong market. But then I would say that. [You could be right, though. And bad luck with the Amazon reviewers, who may or may not have been drunk at 3am when they wrote those reviews.]This all raises several points, as well as a few tears, and I asked BS if I could use her story to highlight a few things. She agreed. "Unfortunately, at around the time the foreign book was published, I lost my agent. You'll just have to believe me when I say it wasn't my fault, [I do - though I'd give the anonymous agent the benefit of the doubt by saying that there are often one and a half sides to the story] as it wouldn't be professional to go into details. Whether they would ever have managed to sell the book into other territories is questionable, but we'll never know now. "So here I am, my baby is out there but unreadable in its native tongue, and no agent will touch it with a barge pole cos it has already been flogged to death by the original agent. I - egotistic author that I am - am in a massive sulk about the fact that nobody I care about can read the damn thing, and the holy grail of publication hasn't involved a single piece of ego-stroking or validation, and it feels as though it may as well not have happened. [Ugh, this is painful.] "Indeed, I'm so depressed that I've given up writing altogether. Abandoned the third novel in first draft stage and embarked on a new career. "Don't worry - I'm not expecting you to tell me I did the right thing by giving up. It clearly shows a lack of backbone and an excessive degree of childish sulk, the kind which would preclude a successful publishing career. [I disagree most strongly.] "Actually I don't know what my question is. I think it was going to be something along the lines of, "Do you think sometimes a writer just has to admit they are a bit crap, and give up?" [I will answer this.] which is only the aforementioned sulkiness in a very thin disguise... or maybe, "Don't you agree that I've had a particularly raw deal? [possibly but not certainly].You feel sorry for me, right?" - which would be more of the same... "Obviously what I need to do is either (a) keep going and make each book better than the last, or (b) stop worrying about publication - just write for the sake of it, or (c) acknowledge that I've been writing for the wrong reasons, and have a break until I can think of some better reasons to keep doing it. But stop with all the whingeing.[can you do b) ??? If you can, then you should, anyone should, but if you can't.... a) is what we should all do if we believe in ourselves. Hmmm re c) - HAVE you been writing for the wrong reasons? What ARE the wrong reasons? But I'm not interested in your reasons and nor are your readers - we only want to know if you're good enough.] "Hmmm. Thank you. That helped. [Er, really?!] "Oh! I thought of a question! Here it is: "Have you come across this phenomenon before? Writers who have a book which is only ever published in one other country, translated, and with no fanfare or success? [Frankly, I haven't come across this. But it may happen. I don't think it's the central issue. The central issue is that you came close - more than that, you were published, but it didn't deliver success. We think that success is being published - it's not.] Do they get sulky about it too, or am I just outrageously ungrateful? [Oh, trust me: we are all ungrateful because we are not megastars!] So far I'm the only writer I know who has experienced this thing." I asked BS a few more questions but I specifically did not want to know her real name or the name of her books. Because, just for now, I don't want to read her writing - despite the fact that it's whether her writing is any good that's the most important question. I asked what genre she wrote in, because whether it's lit fic or not makes a difference, or whether it's a genre that's easy to sell. "Genre: That's part of my problem. I've tried to write to a genre, but it just doesn't seem to be something I can do without losing my own identity in what I write. "Contemporary fiction" is the laziest description. [No, it's a good description if it's the right one.] My second was described as a comic thriller, which is vaguely accurate. My first had large dollops of suspense. The second was published in an imprint devoted to "urban fiction". Both can definitely be described as quirky. My third is definitely a comic thriller. They're all for adults."BS lives in the UK but her second novel was published by a large publisher in Germany. Also, if you'd like more details - and it's a moving story - she's written about it here. OK, here's what I think, apart from my italicised comments above. - BS is serious about her writing, as she should be. The fact that she crosses genres tells me so - she just loves to write and is doing it from the heart; plus the fact that she's angsting so much about whether she's good enough. She's not a whinger; she doesn't sound deluded. She got published. From then on she was unlucky, on many counts. Now, her book(s) also may not have been fabulous - we don't know. But she got published and what happened then does not sound like her fault. (Unless she's spinning a complex tale and is in fact deluded...) - Stuff happens: books are published badly; some agents and publishers are rubbish (hers may not have been but some are and you won't care when you sign the contract - you'll only care when "stuff happens". - The Amazon reviews hurt. They may be right or they may be wrong. Personally, I think most Amazon reviews, even the positive ones, are suspect and I generally wouldn't trust them. But, when you get publshed you have to take them; you also have to take the fact that they can destroy you. - listen to this: "the holy grail of publication hasn't involved a single piece of ego-stroking or validation, and it feels as though it may as well not have happened." Publication is often not the way to eternal happiness. You are all embarking on a journey which will contain many hours of heartache. Most of which no one else will ever see. Thank God. Beleaguered Squirrel has been movingly open about it. If you knew what screws me up at night you'd be surprised - I am often a mess of angst and failure. - BS is so depressed that she gave up writing altogether. OK, that's awful but I hope it's not true. And in fact we know it's not, don't we? We know that BS will pull herself together and get back on the horse. I twice gave up writing during my 21 years of failure - or I said I was giving up. I was giving up outwardly. But I never really gave up. You can't. Not if you're a real writer. I don't know if she's good enough to get further than she already has - but gosh, I hope she is. In fact, suddenly I really want to read it. Why have I posted this? Why have I revealed the terrible heartache of the long-distance writer? Because you need to know. You need to know how good you have to be, how much you have to want it, and how even when you get it it may not be enough. In fact, if you're any good and if you want it so much, it probably won't be enough. Wanting more, being hungry, being greedy for success, being grasping and dementedly desperate are the things that will screw you up and carry you through. They will bring you heartsong and success and they will hurt you in the process. That's the horrible paradox of writing. 34 comments: Okay, here's my story. Shorter than the unfortunately-tagged 'BS', but misery loves company. I'd published a bunch of nonfiction books, but wanted to write fiction. So I started writing novels, and nothing sold. Then nothing sold and nothing sold and I got an agent and nothing sold. Insert the passage of many years. Then I got an offer on a novel. A big offer. A six-figure offer. The novel was published in the US, Germany, France, the UK, and Holland. The publisher pushed the book. They spent money on marketing. They did everything you dream of a publisher doing. The novel tanked. I got this wonderful ego-stroking validation--for a while. But at the end of the day, I was given that one amazing shot that every writer dreams of ... and readers simply didn't like my book. BS: You've had two books published, but you haven't had the chance to break out. You seem inclined to conclude that you're crap, but if you're really crap, then the small-but-reputable house wouldn't have published you and the agent (if also reputable) wouldn't have repped you, and the Germans wouldn't have translated you. Writers control almost nothing in the publishing process except the words on the page. Everything else is bullshit. Foreign sales are bullshit and reviews are bullshit and self-promotion is bullshit and Bookscan is bullshit and advances are bullshit. Hell, even readers are bullshit. We're writers. We write. Sometimes we get a break. Sometimes we don't. Sometimes we get a big break and still go down in flames. Nothing we can do about that. Just keep writing. Proe Nicola, if I say how much I love you and your blog and your commenters and everyone's wisdom, will I appear as a gushing fool? Okay, I won't then, just in case. I read about Beleaguered Squirrel's tale awhile back on another blog and FELT something about what it all meant but then moved on. You have outlined so thoroughly what it all means. Also, Prue's story shows the truth of the matter-- that the writer unpublished sees publication and that first contract as the happiest event imaginable. And then reality sets it. Much like marriage. But we just have to move on don't we? And keep working at it. To coin a trite phrase--nothing worth having comes easy. Sometimes we have to eat dirt. Dear Beleagured Squirrel, "Writing is a life sentence" (Richard Hughes). You have to keep writing, keep writing, keep writing. It is not a nice occupation. It is lonely. It is difficult. You are stuck with it. I sometimes think it would be nice to just read books and never try to write one. It is unfair that it takes an author much longer to write one than it does for me to read one. I will not chase you up a tree Beleagured Squirrel (Ms Morgan would ban me from her blog if I did that - and who could blame her) but I will say that the only answer is to keep hoarding your nuts and then share them out with the right squirrels when the time comes. There will be squirrels who appreciate this! Many thanks for this story, Nicola. I have followed 'BS' in her various blogs for several years and have a copy of the foreign language book (which I can't read because of the language). I'll have to come back this evening and read the post properly, since I need to go to work. Proe - that's a tough story. Yet here you still are, still writing and proving the truth of your last paragraph. (I'd rather ignore the penultimate one - even though on the darker days it feels true. I did meet some very uncrap readers yesterday.) Karen - all gushing fools most welcome! Catdownunder - indeed! Pierre - thanks for calling by - have a good day at work! You have my sympathy, BS, and my strongest encouragement. Well, as strong as it can be over the internet. I hope you find the drive to write a fourth novel, informed by all that's happened to you (or at least to give your third a chance). I can't tell you how much BS's story chimes with me. I, like most bright-eyed and bushy-tailed 'new' writers, initially set myself the goal. Mine was that I would have a novel published and piled high in bookshops by the time I was 45--amended to 50, 55--it's now 60. I'm oh so near that moment--and yet so far away. And when it happens--if it happens--I now know that that the 'big splash' I'd once imagined will be as insignificant as a grain of sugar slipped into a coffee cup. Who'll notice? And even more importantly, who will care? Is my writing good enough to be published? Dunno. But I know it's better than some and a lot worse than others. That's writing. Sometimes it sucks. Sometimes it sings. We keep writing. Well said Sally Zigmond! I feel enormous sympathy for BS and know half a dozen true variations on her theme. But I also know people in IT and distribution - to my mind dull-as-ditchwater jobs that deserve recompense who are working unpaid and have for a couple of years to try and keep the companies that 'employ' them afloat. I think it can help to see writing in two apparently disparate but actually harmonious lights. 1) It's a job - keep doing it, like waitresses still serve at table on quiet nights or teachers still teach when they have mean munchkins in their class one year - i.e. just ride with the bad times they happen in all professions, and 2) simultaneously treat it as a hobby - something we do for love. Beats watching Come Dine With Me on a wintry night; cheaper than flyfishing or jujitsu classes. Do it for the love of it, keep on doing it after a certain project has tanked, but only if we want to. If that attitude can satisfy us, then we can keep going. If not, no shame in doing something else. Haven't written a book yet, but as Nicola says, stuff happens. And stuff that is out of one's hands. The only thing that writers can control is the writing. BS shouldn't think of this as failures, per se, it is just the journey. So two or three or however many other books don't "make" it. I can't recall the name, but a U.S. writer finally got his first book noticed, which had received a very modest & uneventful printing years after three other books became bestsellers. So, BS, take option A. Keep going. You're a writer. And writers write. Good luck! Hell, even readers are bullshit. Aiyeeee! I hope you don't mind if I take great exception to that. Without our wonderful readers, I'd probably be standing on a corner wearing a sandwich board that says, "Will edit your book for food." As for BS's story, it tears at the heart, doesn't it? At the end of the day, each of us has to decide what defines us. Do the stories burn in our souls and scream to get out? Some of us fight that urge by getting fit for a straight-jacket. The rest write. I have read the post on squirrel's blog along with this and what worries me is that I get the feeling that she has taken on a job which leaves her with no time at all to write on the rebound so to speak. I am concerned that she may regret not having time to write in the future. I'm sure that writing is in her bones if she has taken it as far as she has and I hope she finds some time to get back to it in the future. Best of luck for the future Squirrel. Sorry I've had to post anonymously as my google account is playing up. Gwen Thanks so much for posting this. My first book came out through a small but award-winning publisher too, and although the initial 'buzz' and reviews were great, it basically sank without a trace. I too lost my agent (she left the business) and tried to sell a stand-alone sequel elsewhere myself before deciding reluctantly to shelve it and write something new. I now have a new agent who is shopping the book. I write because I love it and I'm not really happy unless I'm doing it, and I refuse to stop because of anything that might happen out there in the publishing world, which is probably outside my control anyway. It's a leap of faith to some extent to put your work out there, let it go, and start again at the beginning, but that's what you must do. Perseverance is key. And a mulish stubbornness doesn't hurt either. Behlerblog: Well, you're a publisher, right? It's your job to think about readers. If you didn't, we'd all be screwed. That's why your cut of every book sold is larger than mine, even though I wrote the thing. As a writer I face different hurdles. I need to summon the courage to splash myself all over the page, even though I know some people are gonna hate every word (witness the one-star Amazon review), and others won't understand a single paragraph. I need to summon the courage to keep writing even after my book tanks, or is published only in German--after my agent is hit by a bus and my publisher goes bankrupt and my spouse starts leaving the Help Wanted pages open on the kitchen table. What's that AA prayer? 'Give me the strength to accept the things I can't change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.' Writers can't make readers like our stuff. We try, of course, but that's ultimately not something we control. All we control is the ability to get our ass in the chair and write. I love basketball players who work for children's charities and sign endless autographs, but those things are not the measure of the athlete: the measure of the athlete is stepping onto the field and leaving nothing behind. One of the things I say too often is that publishing is high-stakes gambling. It may not be very comforting, but the best thing I can offer, after 18 years in this business, is that you NEVER know when the next book will be the one that hits the jackpot. And from my own experience, I can tell you that no one, not even the editors who are famous for picking winners, or the publicists who are known to have the Midas touch, NO ONE can put out winning books every time, nor can anyone break out the deserving books every time. That's just one more of the things that make this business addictive. BS, and the other commenters, you need to hold fast to the truth that you're writing the best books you can, and that you're doing as much to help your publishers sell them as you can. Thank you all for being so sympathetic. In many ways I don't deserve it, because I've always known that this industry was hard. I've always known that most writers remain in obscurity, never make a living out of it. I've always known the drawbacks (bad reviews, no publicity, poorly pitched books, long wait times, lack of control and all the rest). And I've had more luck than many. It's true that I've made it difficult for myself to write for the next two or three years. But I'll be busy, so it'll pass quickly. And I'm only 40. My grandparents are in their 90s. There's plenty of time. I'll write again. And maybe one day I'll produce something really, unarguably, compellingly... good. Because that is the holy grail, and it's one which is hard to stop pursuing. My work so far has been immature, flawed, good in parts but not good overall. The flaws are fixable, in time and with experience. Give me another twenty years, another ten books, another x-thousand temper tantrums and handfuls of lost hair... and maybe I'll... Succeed? Finish? Arrive? Of course not. It's one of those damned journeys with no end. I'll just have to admire the view. P.S. I guess the "wrong" reasons would be money and fame. The biggest wrong reasons, I think, is money. The irony is that I was never one of those people who saw publication as route to wealth. I've never wanted to be rich anyway. But I did try and make a living out of it, and I think that killed it. For me, at any rate. Just remember, guys: God does not play dice. Sure, there is luck in publishing and timing, but eventually your determination and inner strength is what makes it happen. You just can't give up if it's something you love. It may not happen in our timing, but it will happen if we're stubborn enough and constantly strive to improve. On a side note, this post made me realize why a lot of the great writers were alcoholics ;). Best of luck to you, BS! Following various blogs & forums re writing, agents, publishing, query letters, etc., it struck me how many folks seem to make publication the be-all/end-all, expecting, if not wealth/fame, at least a living from their writing. I suspect that if you went to Borders or B&N (or the UK equivalent) and wrote down the names of 100 fiction authors found only on the shelves (as opposed to the hard-sell tables in front), then researched them, you would find a lot of them don't make a living at it (or live damn frugally). I write because I enjoy it, including a lot of poetry - and who was the last poet you knew making a living from his/her published poetry? I just want to make each book as good as I can make it. If I make a buck, fine. If not, that's okay, too. Great post and I really wish BS all the best. The whole story sounds like it would be crushing and I can fully understand why sometone would need to take some time out. Anyway sending general cyber good luck to you all Kate xxx steeleweed, the poet comparison is a good one. The silly thing is I never thought a living from writing was very likely, and if I hadn't been made redundant would never have been contemplating it as this stage in my writing career. But the redundancy payment provided a cushion, and there was nothing else I felt like doing with my life. I fell into it, really, but if nothing else I hope my tale shows that people should think very hard indeed before trying to make a living out of writing. If you attempt it when you're not ready, it can really batter your confidence. Breaks can be good, I think. Sometimes I just can't settle to writing, for no real reason - or so I think at the time. While I'm taking a break from it, doing other stuff, it often hits me suddenly that the scene I've been working on is all wrong, or there's some big problem with the plot. It's as if my subconscious has spotted the problem and found ways to stop me writing until my conscious catches up and sorts it out. Maybe you're experiencing a similar thing, Squirrel. Regardless of your struggles with publishers etc., it sounds as if YOU are not happy with your work to date (although I think many writers can say the same!) - maybe a break is just what you need to reassess the direction you want to take with your writing. You have my full sympathies, Squirrel, and my full hopes that you will write again when you feel ready for it. Sometimes a break is a good thing, and the time will come around again to a point where you have another story to tell. Lots of luck. The main reason I started writing was that I had a story I wanted to tell. Over the years this mutated into a story to save me, get me out of the mire and into the sort of life I always wanted - a place of my own, a garden, somewhere safe and nice. This was far too much pressure and my writing crumbled. I took a break, work took over. And then I started writing for the fun of it again. Magazines here, online there. And suddenly I had a story to tell once again - yet my situation hasn't changed - I still want a place of my own, a garden, somewhere safe and nice. But that is no longer the reason I write. Maybe it is the rite of passage - like teenager to adult - it takes a while to settle down and realise what is important. I like creating stories. That's all. That's why your cut of every book sold is larger than mine, even though I wrote the thing. Anon, you always have the choice of self publishing your book and keeping all the earnings for yourself. But what you'll find is that your personal fortune will rapidly disappear as you work to get your book into the libraries and on store shelves. You'll have to foot the bill for print runs, editing, distribution, sending ARCs to reviewers, media kits, page layout, interior and cover design, advertising, promotion, the list goes on and on. After all that, at the end of the day, your book will more than likely create little notice, and that's because you would be a very small voice in a very competitive industry that thrives on name recognition. Believe me, we don't sit on our posteriors eating chocolate and margaritas. It takes a lot of money to propel an author's book, and after all that expense, our take is also quite small. I think the real issue for many writers, and not just for the person who situation is dealt with in this post, is keeping on top of the businss side of the publishing process. If you have an agent, he or she is working for you. (Agent: one who acts for another in business.) If you are working with a publisher, you are entering into a business relationship with an organisation. Maybe this writer needs some (more) support with the business side of the process. For example, I always have my contracts checked by a third party. The Society of Authors does this very well. I also think about what could go wrong, and do I really want to work with these people, before I sign a contract. Getting published is part of what we all want, but making money, building a personal brand and the right sort of reputation are all important aspects of the process, too. It's hard, but sometimes it's better to turn down a publishing deal than to go into something that doesn't feel right. I know I've walked away from a few offers and haven't regretted it. For what it's worth, you know you're a writer if, whether having sworn to give it up or not, in the wee small hours of the morning a plot idea or a narrative description comes to you and prevents you from dropping off to sleep. If you get up to start noting these intrusive thoughts down, then you are still a writer 24-7. If you roll over and sink your head beneath the pillow, then maybe, just maybe, you will be able to give it up. I have been an insomniac for 20 years now on the above model. The only forces working against this are 1) Banging your head agaainst a brick wall (to wit, the publishing industry)does yield concussion and at some point you may reel away for a lie down 2) There is alway an existential crisis provoked everytime one gazes up from one's writing desk to see unrequited MS after unrequited MS gathering dust on the shelf above your head. These two counter-forces periodically interdict the writing drive, but never enough to hole it beneath the plimsoll line. I'm self-pubbing for the first time. If it leads to no rungs further up the publishing ladder, I will probably just publish my other 3 novels in full for free, on Smashwords and Bookbuzzr. And then get back to my WIP with the same intention for that when it's finished. In the end, I just want my words to be read. (The Bookbuzzr sample of self-pub'd one has had 650 hits, which is more than I've had from posting to various online writing communities). How many sales will emerge from that? Who knows. Getting paid a token for them is irrelevant. It's about getting my words to the reader, by any means necessary. Good lord, behlerblog, I never said that publishers didn't sit around eating bonbons. I didn't say publishers don't deserve the larger cut of the gross; they do. But they reason they do is because they 'foot the bill for print runs, editing, distribution, sending ARCs to reviewers, media kits, page layout, interior and cover design, advertising, promotion, the list goes on and on.' That's their job. That's why they get a bigger slice. They care about reviews and readers and everything else. That's great. Someone needs to. Good lord, behlerblog, I never said that publishers didn't sit around eating bonbons. I didn't say publishers don't deserve the larger cut of the gross; they do. Sorry, Anon. I must have misunderstood your original remark of "publishers get more, event though I wrote it." It sounded as though you found the publisher/author arrangement unfair, and I wanted to clarify. Sorry, Nicola, didn't mean to veer this important thread off course. I sympathise with Beleaguered Squirrel. But it's true, writing is tough. And who knows what success really is? Think of John Keats, dying at 25, not knowing if, as he hoped, he would be counted 'among the English poets' after his death, and who asked to have written on his grave merely: 'Here lies one whose name was writ in water.' Never fear, behlerblog, Nicola knows exactly who's responsible for thread-veering! (And sorry if I got a little prickly. I've repeatedly insisted on this blog that I'm by nature a bit of a jerk, but I -do- try not to prove it too often.) Proe V sorry, everyone - have been horribly tied up with stuff, none of which was proper writing. To Proe: awww, you know yourself so well, you curmudgeonly old so-and-so! And I should have warned Lynn of the bblog about your grumpy habits... Lynn - if proe can find something to stir us up about, he will. But I think he's mellowing - gosh there was a time when he rivalled me for crabbititude. Others - lots of wisdom there for the beleaguered squirrel. Thank you all so much. I love the Squirrel dearly and know that this stage too is part of her journey. We all have our tales to tell and she has articulated a personal story that resonates with many other writers (inc me!). Meanwhile, something very good has come for me personally from this post. I was feeling swamped with Real Life and getting bogged down and stressed. Reading this, the obvious solution hit me. So obvious but ... So now I'm off to give my WIP some well-deserved space. I always feel better when I'm immersed in fiction world, which is one of the better reasons for writing. Maybe the only one that counts ... Thanks for reminding me! Hello Beleaguered Squirrel, it's nice to see you here despite the sad tale. I hope you'll decide to continue writing and have more inner strength unlike the quitters such as myself. The fact that you're published indicates to me that you have the ability. I think you've just been very unlucky and I hope that changes. Nicola, thank you for posting this. I already know Squirrel and this story from another forum but it was useful, though saddening, to read it again. Readers and writers need to be aware that the art/craft/science/industry of writing can be unforgiving. Success stories such as JKR's are the exception rather than the norm. All too often we hear from the authors who have made it, albeit usually with a struggle. We hardly ever hear about the ones who gave up or who were forced to give up. Why would we? They're useful stories though, as the give us a balance and often a much-needed reality check. Good blog posting thanks for given this information. Priya | True Love Story

A Writer Reads Playlist Navigation Bar Hands of the King: 29. Foundation Denethor sat on the bench at the end of the battlement while the sun set, but for once he did not stare east across the plain. He sat and watched the Tower, and wondered how he could get past the locked door to the upper chambers. The Steward held the key to the lower door just as he himself held the key to the topmost chamber, now strung on the mariner's lanyard around his neck. One day, while walking with Ecthelion and discussing water rights on the upper Cirith, Hathol, the Warden of the Keys, approached and requested something from one of the storerooms in the Tower. The Steward very grandly led them to the arch and unlocked the new door. Denethor offered to assist Hathol with his burden, and was able to ask about the new door, once out the Steward's earshot. The key warden grumbled greatly at new locks and no key for himself and how was he to do the Tower's business if he had always to go bothering the Lord Steward? After he rejoined Ecthelion, Denethor was careful to make no mention of the new door, which only amused the Steward more. A half-dozen plans for obtaining the key had been considered and abandoned, and now there was no time. He would soon need to leave to travel to Edoras for the marriage of Prince Théoden, and before that he had to go to Osgiliath for an inspection. Anórien, Cair Andros, and Henneth Annûn would receive their inspections after he returned from Rohan. It would be mid-July at the soonest before he would be back in the City. With a sigh, Denethor stood and returned to the Stewards House. It was in disarray, with Aiavalë's work crew busily poking into every corner and mussing every room. To take advantage of his absence, they were to work first on his apartments. Denethor had taken Aiavalë's old rooms on the ground floor, refusing her invitation to stay with her at the widow's house. Only his desk, bed, and chest of drawers had been moved – all else he locked away in a small warehouse at the back of the Citadel. Imrahil and Beregar greeted him cheerfully when he came into the sitting room. Supper was laid out for the three of them on his desk. As long as there were no guests, Denethor insisted that Beregar would eat with himself and Imrahil, though Beregar insisted just as stubbornly that he would serve them and clean up afterwards. It seemed a small enough bit of dignity to leave the young man, so Denethor assented. As they ate, Denethor decided it would be best to go to Osgiliath at once and also to depart for Rohan as soon as could be arranged. 'Hound?' 'Yes, my lord?' 'I will go to Osgiliath tomorrow, and will remain at least one night. On the second day after I return, we will set out for Rohan. I will have letters to give to Lord Brandir so he will know to be ready.' As soon as Denethor had learned that Maiaberiel was not going to make the trip, he had decided that he would take both Imrahil and Beregar along. 'Yes, sir.' The youths exchanged pleased looks. They were almost inseparable now. Aside from the afternoons when Denethor made Imrahil attend councils or be his clerk, the two did everything together – arms training, running errands, getting into small mischief. Denethor dismissed them for the evening, and retreated to his bed chamber to read Finduilas's latest letter. There were so many letters from Alquallë that he could no longer keep them all tucked into her book. He sat tailor-style on his bed, looking at the stack. The older ones were beginning to fall apart from being opened and refolded. The recent letters were longer and less formal, which said to Denethor that Adrahil probably was not reading them anymore, though it seemed likely that Luinil would. He picked up the one that had been delivered that morning. Dearest Friend, It gladdens my heart to know that you and all those whom I love in Minas Tirith are well. I have little news to tell. A storm came through two days past and the kitchen gardens took some harm. It is early enough that more may be planted. But what a storm it was! Grandfather and I stood out on a balcony when it first approached and delighted in its ferocity. We ran inside fast enough when the rain hit. Thunder rolled like drums and the wind churned the harbor water into froth. A few ships will need repairs, as will some roofs in the town. Please thank my little brother for his letters; they are making it easier to bear his absence. Mother was relieved to hear that you will not permit him near any of the eastern garrisons. I think she wishes to see Imrahil as soon as she can, though she does not say so. I send my love to all there, but most of all to you, Friend. Your beloved, Finduilas He reread this letter twice before sighing and tucking it into the book. The very oldest, those beginning to disintegrate, he took to the desk in the outer room. There he wrapped them inside a sheet of paper and carefully sealed the packet shut. They went into the compartment below the false bottom in one of the drawers. A persistent thief could find them, but a casual snoop would not. *** Denethor set out not long after the second bell and took his time riding across the Pelennor. It was the first time he had come to the garrison since turning it over to Thorongil. As he neared the causeway to the fortress gate, he felt a tightness in his chest. He wondered what he would find and how he would be received. The sentries called out that the Warden approached, swiftly followed by the creak of the gates as they were opened for him. For the first time since he set foot in Osgiliath as a youth, Denethor felt a stranger. Thorongil came out of the barracks followed by another man, and for one moment, Denethor thought it was Adrahil before he recognized Halmir. The Lost's shoulder-length hair had been cropped short and was almost all grey, and his face was clean-shaven. 'Warden,' Thorongil greeted him, bowing. Halmir gave the younger man a disapproving glance, then bowed more deeply. 'Captain.' 'Gentlemen,' Denethor replied, walking past them towards the barracks. They followed him in. He was up the stairs and almost to his room when Denethor wondered if it was still his, or if another had been put into it. After a split-second pause, he bumped the door open, and tossed his saddlebags to the cot as he always did. He continued down the hall to the officer's meeting room. If someone else had been put in his old quarters, it would be corrected by the time the meeting was done. Denethor took the black chair, accepted a cup of wine from Halmir, and waited for the other two to speak. 'When do you want to inspect the garrison and when do you want to go out?' Halmir asked without preamble. The absence of hair to soften the sharp lines of his face was disconcerting. 'The garrison this afternoon. I meet with Galdor first. Tomorrow for a patrol.' 'Yes, sir, but no patrols.' 'You have none going out tomorrow?' The Lost hesitated for one second. 'None you will be part of.' 'Indeed?' Denethor allowed himself to sound amused at Halmir's stubbornness. 'Then you shall not go on one, either.' Halmir nodded. Denethor let his eyes move to Thorongil, waiting for the other to begin. 'How fares the south?' the captain asked. 'Well. The winter was mild compared to last year, and all signs point to a peaceful summer, at least as far as Harad and Umbar are concerned.' Placing Lark as the Archivist of Pelargir had been a good decision. Marach sent regular reports from his trade network and they arrived safely tucked in with ordinary correspondence between the Archivists. Denethor made certain that Morwen continued to receive payments for the information – he preferred to stay in her good graces. Evidently she had sent Lark's mother south to be the Matron of a new whorehouse in Pelargir. 'What of here?' 'Many fewer patrols and incursions. Birds are nesting, not just flying through,' Thorongil replied, Halmir nodding in agreement. 'Good.' Denethor drained his cup and stood. 'I will be with Galdor.' He found the surgeon in his miniscule apothecary concocting something that turned out to be passably good brandy. He ended up having dinner with the healer and spoke of the strange plants he had seen while traveling in the south. Galdor complained in equal measure about the stupidity of young men and the absence of whores. The surgeon noted that there had been almost no fumes from the Vale since just after the battles of mid-winter. Denethor thanked him for his company and assured Galdor that he would be invited to the wedding. He then set out to inspect the fortress. Nothing had changed. That was the greatest surprise. The garrison was just as he had left it. It looked the same, smelled the same, sounded the same. It was only when they climbed the walls and looked out at the ruins that Denethor found difference. Even across the river, he could make out scorch marks on the stone, could see gaps where previously something had been. As soon as he could, he left the wall. When the three were back in the courtyard, Denethor asked Thorongil, 'How far out do we command?' 'To the Crossroads. We patrol beyond it, but I wouldn't say we command it.' 'We'll go that far tomorrow, then, and a ways north.' Halmir looked displeased, but said nothing. 'You will stay two nights, sir?' Thorongil asked. 'Yes. If you will excuse me.' With a nod, Denethor dismissed the officers and headed back towards the barracks. He wanted to look again on the ruins, but did not want to be accompanied while he did. Passing through the barracks, he slipped in between the outer wall and a row of storehouses. There was a little-used stair that led to a barred window overlooking the ruins – the dank corridor continued a dozen yards to another narrow stair that let out behind the privies. Denethor rested his arms on the window ledge and looked at Osgiliath. He ran his eyes slowly over the edges on the river, noting exactly where Anduin had carried away parts of the past. A breeze came from the east. In it, Denethor thought he smelled burned flesh. He made himself stay there and look until he had examined all that could be seen from the small window. Dinner had caught up with him, so he carefully picked his way along the cramped and slick passage towards the privies. The sound of two familiar voices made him stop part-way down the stair. 'No.' 'It is…' 'No.' From the sounds of the voices, Halmir and Thorongil were near the entrance to the stair, their voices amplified and echoing slightly against the stone. After a pause, Halmir continued, 'There is no reason for you to go. I can answer any questions.' 'And I am the one to answer to the Warden.' Thorongil's voice was patient. Halmir made a rude sound. 'He will expect it.' 'Not both of you over the river at once. Why can't you understand this?' There was another long pause, accompanied by the rustle of cloth. Denethor surmised they were using their sign code. Afterwards, Thorongil said 'Very well,' though he sounded reluctant. There was more sound of cloth. 'He has business being here!' Halmir's voice was low but sharp. 'As do I.' 'You don't belong here. You…' The words ended and there was more noise of cloth, ending with the sound of a hand slapping stone. After another long pause, Halmir said, 'I do my duty. You have yet to understand yours.' The next sound was footsteps, but Denethor could not determine if both men had left. He stealthily withdrew and came out by the other stairway. Later, at supper, Denethor sat with Galdor and Thorongil and spoke about the condition of south Gondor. Halmir sat with the other four of the Lost stationed in Osgiliath. The King's Men also sat together, though they were subdued. The cot in Denethor's room was comfortingly familiar, and he got his first good night's sleep since he had been moved out of the alcove in his study. The ride with Halmir the next day was uneventful. They and a dozen other horsemen rode over the bridge just past sunrise. They were to the Crossroads by midmorning, then rode a few leagues north on the main road before turning west and returning slowly through the small paths and overgrown lanes that crisscrossed the western slopes of Ithilien. Thorongil was right; there were more birds in the land than Denethor had heard for several springs. The blooms were gone from abandoned orchards, and green fruit hung thick on their branches. Half-demolished walls bore witness to where fields once lay, a faint memory of how Ithilien had mirrored the Pelennor and the eastern reach of Anórien, each protected by a proud tower. Every so often they would pass the remains of an old house, sometimes with a wall or chimney jutting up through brambles and wildflowers, sometimes just the burned foundations. Twice they stopped to allow a rider to dismount and give reverence to a family home. Each left a handful of waybread on the hearth and knelt in honor of what had been lost. Denethor knew each was to promise to retake their lands, but wondered if any still believed that would happen. They were nearly back to Osgiliath when Halmir said, 'The defense of Ithilien is poorly done.' 'In what way?' 'It needs better coordination. We here know nothing of what the northern rangers do.' 'I could say the same.' Denethor looked at Halmir until the other dropped his gaze. 'Yet, somehow, it appears we are safe enough, though we are told little and are asked to take all on faith.' The Lost did not reply. 'I command Cair Andros and Osgiliath through my seconds. I know what is being done. Unless there is something here of which I am ignorant?' 'No, sir.' They rode for several minutes before Halmir asked, 'Why do you trust us?' 'Should I not?' Halmir did not answer and they rode in silence back to the garrison. Denethor wrote a note for the evening messenger to take to Beregar, telling him to be ready three days hence to set out for Rohan, then spent the rest of the day going over the ledgers and reports of the garrison. Once again, he slept well. At breakfast Denethor told Thorongil, 'You come with me today. I inspect the ruins.' Halmir looked sourly at them both before leaving the mess. Soon, Denethor heard the gates to the bridge creak open and shut and knew extra guards had been sent out. They began by walking the length of the bridge, Denethor inspecting it carefully. It was in acceptable condition. They left the bridge near the eastern end and entered the ruins. It was further than he remembered to the edge of the Fire's reach. At first, all he could see were scorch marks, then there were places with shattered stone. In all of the protected crevices, soot clung and stank. Denethor did not want to touch the stone, afraid of what it would say to him. Finally, when they stood amidst the center of the Fire-fall, where spidery cracks veined the stone and there was an odor of rotting things, he laid a hand upon the crumbling skeleton of an arch. It refused to weep despite its burns and breaks, grinding stone upon stone like an injured man clenching his teeth, while Anduin tried to wash away the memory of the desecration. Denethor walked on, looking for another wound. A fragment of stone came away in his hand when he touched an old window sill. One edge was sharp and he gripped the stone tightly, letting it bruise his palm. In another spot, he brushed his fingers over a scorched carving and they came away coated with an oily soot. He rubbed them on his clothes but could not remove all of the filth. The smell increased as the sun warmed the stone. While not as strong as on the day of the battle, the stench was of the same kind. Under his feet, Denethor could feel the stone yearning to stoop down into the river's cool embrace and be cleansed. A wave of nausea came over him, forcing him to stop and lean against a wall until he overcame the impulse to retch. Thorongil touched his shoulder, tentatively at first, but more firmly when Denethor did not resist. It was like Finduilas's touch, or the mariner's, removing the turmoil in his heart and leaving a kind of peace behind. Gently, the hand pulled on him. 'We should leave this place, Denethor.' 'Yes.' The two men picked their way out of the center of the ruins and back to the bridge. As he had in the winter, Denethor led them to the pier of stone in the midst of water. They sat in the same manner, he to the west, Thorongil to the east. Denethor could feel something different to the pier, a greater trembling before Anduin's current, and knew the stone would give way in the next few years, perhaps even in the floods of the coming spring. One of the tiles, decorated with a sun, had an exposed edge. Denethor pulled his belt knife and began chipping at the mortar under the tile. 'You're going to ruin your knife.' Denethor shrugged and kept trying to work the tile loose. 'Why did you send me that note?' It took Denethor a moment to remember the message he had sent to the captain concerning the pyres in Umbar. 'Did you understand?' There was no one else to tell. 'I think so.' Chip, chip. 'Do you know any more?' 'No.' The pyres, they would smell like Osgiliath. When Eldacar fled, the stones also burned, and those faithful to him were burned. The city escaped into the river, casting itself into her murky depths. The corpses were drawn south by the current, even as far as Pelargir, where the rebels mocked them. 'Does the Steward know?' 'I said nothing to him of this.' The point of the knife was ruined. Ecthelion would welcome the Fire as long as it destroyed the bridge and the past. 'What is Umbar like?' Denethor looked up. Thorongil sat, knees drawn up and arms wrapped around them. 'Tell me of this place. What would I find there?' The question was asked so honestly there was nothing Denethor could do save answer. 'It is beautiful. It sits on the hills and cliffs overlooking the firth. Below is the greatest harbor you will ever see, with many docks of stone and ships of every kind. There are no large trees anymore, though once there were cedars. Every square has a fountain. The streets are silent, for no one dares to speak. The women and even some of the men wear veils to shield their faces from the sun. The slaves are not permitted veils or much clothing, so their skin is dark. Worse than the black ships are the black hearts. Umbar is like a peach with a pit consumed by mold and rot. All that is left is the skin that holds in the putrescence.' Denethor returned to chipping the tile loose. It was almost done. 'Crime binds them together and to worse excesses, and the powerful vie to see who shall be the most wicked.' 'You believe the report?' 'Completely.' I fired an arrow into its black heart. The captain sighed and looked into the swirling waters. 'I should see Umbar.' 'It is here, if you know where to look. Everything is here.' With a final chip, the tile was free. Denethor looked at it closely, then spat on it and rubbed it with his sleeve to clean off the grime. He slipped the tile into a pouch at his waist. 'Now, it is my turn for a question.' It was difficult not to laugh at Thorongil's wary look. 'What is the north like? Tell me of this place. What would I find there?' 'It would depend on where you went.' The captain looked down at the tiles. 'Some settlements. Not much.' 'Is there nothing left?' Thorongil's eyes caught his own, fierce and bright. 'Hearts. Hope.' The man half-smiled, but it had no humor in it. 'Mercenaries. Little that would interest you, Warden.' Denethor stood. 'No, Captain, I would find it all interesting. But I think most of it is already here.' He led the way back to the garrison. When they arrived, Denethor asked for Gaerhûl to be readied and went to his room to collect his pack. Thorongil waited for him in the courtyard. 'Is all to your satisfaction, Warden?' 'Yes.' 'I will see you next week when I come for council.' 'No, you won't.' 'Why not?' 'I will be in Rohan for the next month. I go to attend Prince Théoden's wedding.' 'When is that?' Thorongil asked eagerly. 'Mid-summer, I believe.' 'Would you…' The captain paused and began again in a more formal tone. 'Warden, if I write a note of congratulation to the Prince, might I entrust it to your care?' 'Of course. Send it by the evening messenger.' A stablehand brought Gaerhûl up. 'Good day, Captain.' 'Good day, sir.' The return to the City gave Denethor a chance to think. The wilds of the north, the depravities of the south, and Gondor caught between them like the bridge that ran through the ruins of Osgiliath. Both north and south were lost and each grasped at what lay between them. Umbar was a hollowed out thing, a shell or garment wrapped around rot. It survived only as long as Gondor did, its soul the hatred it bore towards what gave it life. In this it spoke the truth of the Enemy and the greater foe who had been that one's master. The Lost, however, what to make of them? Why do I trust you? Denethor tried to name the reasons to himself; they are Dúnedain, they have always served well, we know them… No, I do not. But I trust them. They are like the northern ruins, nearly gone, but still strong. Slowly their foundations erode, and they wander more. He looked north as he rode, wishing once more for the palantír. The tiny bit Thorongil said had captured Denethor's imagination, and he wanted to ride north and see this place for himself. Hearts and hope you say, Captain. But you must live somewhere. What of these settlements? For the first time, he found himself ruing the bargain he had struck with Adrahil to move the wedding up. If he had until the summer after next, surely that would be enough time to go to the Lost realm and return? Then he would understand why these men wandered and suffered the indignity of selling themselves. That was it. Now he knew his true question. Why do you wish to wander rather than return here, to Gondor? Do you not want a home in the world? The Tower gleamed ahead of him, shining and proud in the summer day. There were foundations reaching deep into the bedrock of Gondor itself. Denethor enjoyed seeing the details of the City emerge as he rode closer. Neither the putrid hate nor the rootless hearts for you, fair Queen. You bear the burden of preserving what has been for those who are yet to be. And soon there would be a queen for Minas Tirith, a woman as beautiful and brave, as caring and kind as the City herself. Denethor urged Gaerhûl into a canter, eager to return. *** 'Denethor.' Imrahil had a conspiratorial look on his face as he sidled up. They were one day past the Anórien garrison on their way to Edoras. They should arrive at the Golden Hall on the fourth day from today. 'What is it?' 'Do you know what today is?' 'The fourteenth of June.' Imrahil grinned, then glanced around quickly. 'It is Beregar's birthday!' That explained both the mirth and the caution. 'We must give him what celebration we can this evening.' 'Tell Brandir. He will help.' Imrahil nodded and scurried off. Denethor glanced around until he saw the Hound and whistled to get his attention. 'My lord?' 'You will ride with me today. We have a few things to discuss that are not for the young prince's ears.' Beregar nodded soberly. 'Yes, sir.' 'I will tell Lord Brandir that he is Imrahil's companion today. He can instruct the other on Anórien.' Beregar bowed shallowly and trotted off to help ready the horses. During the ride, Denethor and Beregar spoke of the young man's arms training, any rumors or odd things Beregar had come across, and how the ordering of the Stewards House was coming along. As Beregar astutely presented the condition of the King's Men – floundering, unfocused, falling out of favor – Denethor had to take a new measure of the man. The Hound might not be a master of lore, nor clever with figures and calculations, but he understood power, much more so than Denethor had credited to him before. When they rested during midday, he watched the two young men practice their archery. Beregar's skill was impressive. I'll need to keep him away from Marlong, or the captain will demand him for Henneth Annûn. An idea came to Denethor's mind, which he liked. He settled in for a nap, looking forward to the end of the day. They camped in a place much used by travelers along the road, with a pen for the horses and some sturdy windbreaks for the men. The soldiers set up camp in a cheerful manner, exchanging sly looks and winks. When it came time for supper, Denethor called Beregar over, face stern. 'Beregar, I am displeased.' He said this in a strong voice so all would hear. The young man looked worried. 'At what, my lord?' 'You. You have not been truthful today.' 'Who says so?' was Beregar's indignant reply. 'I have spoken no falsehood!' 'I asked you for all that you knew and you failed to tell me one very important thing.' Denethor paused for effect. 'Is it true that today is your birthday?' Beregar stood there with an astounded look on his face while the soldiers whooped and hooted. Imrahil and one of the younger soldiers ran up and dragged Beregar to a hastily improvised throne made with a saddle and crowned him with a daisy garland. Beregar was made to sit and accept Imrahil waiting on him for supper. He was given a pouch with a few small coins from the soldiers and a piece of silver each from Brandir and Denethor as a gift, amidst much joking that he had to start saving for a wife. The evening was merry with stories and songs performed in Beregar's honor. Denethor refused to let the young man serve him at all that evening, not even to lay out his bedroll. 'Not today, Huan. The Lady would shake a finger at us both.' 'Thank you, master.' 'You are becoming a good archer.' Beregar smiled. 'You think so?' 'Yes. When we return to Minas Tirith, I will see that you are given a longbow and a quiver of arrows for your own.' He brushed off the other's thanks and went to bed. *** In the afternoon of the fourth day after the celebration, the party drew near Edoras. Meduseld's golden roof shimmered in the afternoon heat. A group of horsemen, their hair shining as brightly as the hall's crown, raced out to meet them, circling like swallows and singing a welcome to the guests. Théoden led them. Quickly, the golden warriors formed an escort for the Gondorians and guided the travelers up the road to the gate that pierced the stone and wood wall, singing all the while. When they reached the gate, Théoden dismounted and bowed grandly. Denethor slipped off Gaerhûl and bowed somewhat less grandly in return. 'Welcome, Denethor, son of Ecthelion, High Warden of Gondor, and friend of the Mark! Welcome Lord Brandir, counselor and friend! Lord of the Mark, King Thengel, has sent me to greet you and to bring you as quickly as may be before him. Will you come now and enjoy the hospitality of our halls?' 'Thank you Théoden, son of Thengel, Prince of Rohan, friend of Gondor. We are honored by your greeting and ask to be presented to your lord, Thengel, King of Rohan,' Denethor replied with another shallow bow. Théoden smiled and gestured for them to follow him. As they passed through the gate, the riders sang once more, enjoining them to rest in peace and safety under the golden eaves. Denethor looked around with great curiosity as they climbed the hill to the hall. People came out from the houses to see the guests, and many waved and called to Brandir when they recognized him. The houses clustered thickly upon the stone way and alleys built of hewn planks led to more houses built behind. None of the houses was more than a ground floor and a loft above in height. Many had carved doorways and eaves, and a few had simple images of flowers or horses stenciled on their walls. There was not a sense of disappointment seeing Edoras as there had been when he looked upon Dol Amroth, though there were a few times that Denethor wished to laugh. This is the capitol of a kingdom? He could count a dozen towns of Gondor more grand than this, and several dozen villages fully its equal. Only Meduseld itself gave nobility to this rustic outpost. He looked at the stone street they trod, and had to shake his head. It was Gondorian work, as was the watercourse that ran alongside. The hall itself sat upon a foundation of Gondorian stone. Before the hall, six tall guards stood, silent and fair, waiting for them. Théoden hastened up the steps before the rest, then turned to stand with the guard. As one, the seven offered their swords hilt first. 'Hail, noble guests!' The man to Théoden's left sheathed his sword and stepped forward. 'I am Hárald, Doorward of Thengel. Leave here your arms, for our lord will allow no harm to come to you within his halls.' Denethor had to admire the graceful phrasing of this law, and gave over his sword and knife. Brandir had left his sword on his horse and had only a knife to surrender. Imrahil and Beregar had no swords of their own, so presented their knives. Hárald laid the weapons carefully upon the stone before the seats and signaled for the doors to be opened. Théoden preceded them into the hall. They passed though the dim and beautifully decorated hall too quickly for Denethor's liking, for he wished to examine the carvings and tapestries. Skirting an open hearth, they approached the king. Denethor was shocked at Thengel's appearance. The last time he had seen the man was at Steward Turgon's funeral, twenty-two years before. Then Thengel had been like to his son, tall, proud, and golden, with a ready laugh and a strong back. The man before him bent forward in his throne the same way his gnarled fingers curved over the arms of the chair. Thengel looked older than Angelimir. 'Hail, Thengel, son of Fengel, Lord of the Rohirrim!' Théoden called out. 'I present to you noble guests from Mundburg.' Thengel stood more smoothly than Denethor expected and stood almost upright. He laughed and that was the same as it had always been. 'Welcome, indeed! Two friends I see, and two new faces I must come to know so that they, too, may be counted friends.' The king descended the dais and embraced Denethor. Thengel was lean, but not frail, and there was strength still in his arms. 'Denethor, son of Ecthelion, too long has it been since we have spoken. Once I was shown the generosity of your city, and now shall I return that kindness!' Brandir stepped forward for an embrace. 'Good friend, Brandir! The Queen has said you must pay a call upon her ere the sun sets!' 'I shall do as she commands, friend Thengel,' Brandir replied. Chairs were brought and set near the foot of the dais. The king waved them to seats, taking one for himself. 'Denethor, who are these young men that you bring?' Thengel asked. 'A kinsman of your Queen, Imrahil, son of Adrahil of Dol Amroth.' 'Brother to your betrothed, yes?' Thengel said with a quick smile. 'Yes. Brother to Lady Finduilas.' The king nodded pleasantly to Imrahil, who stood and bowed. 'The second is my squire, Beregar the Hound.' Beregar mimicked Imrahil, bowing to both Thengel and Théoden. A serving woman brought forward a tray with mugs of ale for each of them. Denethor raised his mug in a toast. 'To the friendship, honor, and courage of Rohan.' They drank to this toast and several others, then settled in to talk. Nothing of great importance could be discussed in this setting, but the converse was pleasant. Thengel's wits were sharp and his speech engaging. In no time it all, the afternoon turned to a gentle summer evening, and supper was laid in the hall. Queen Morwen arrived with her daughters, two of whom Denethor faintly remembered from the previous fall, and more greetings were exchanged. The hall filled with people who came to see the guests and honor their arrival. The dishes were plain, but the food plentiful and served with great courtesy. As the meal progressed, the guests were no longer so interesting and chatter turned to the wedding in two days. Théoden was the object of teasing and ribaldry which he cheerfully accepted. The day's ride was beginning to take its toll upon Denethor. From their barely stifled yawns, Imrahil and Beregar were in much the same condition. Denethor glanced around the room, wondering how much longer the meal would last. Everywhere he looked, he saw happy faces, golden hair, many children. Except over there. In one of the darker corners, an older man sat and stared at him. This man's hair was dark, as were his heavy-lidded eyes. Next to him was a tired woman with pale brown hair, shot through with grey, and she had a child in her lap. To the other side were three more children, two girls as mousy as their mother, and a lad somewhat younger than Imrahil, though Denethor realized that he probably could not determine the ages of Rohirrim by looking. They would all look older to him than they really were. He nodded politely to the dour man, who did not respond but kept staring. To Denethor's relief, the meal ended not long afterwards, and the Gondorians were guided to a small house near the hall so they could sleep. Their weapons were already there. Denethor gratefully crawled into a sleeping booth at the side of the central room. A soft rap on the door of the booth woke him the next morning, letting him know that breakfast was there. Théoden came to the guesthouse within the hour, asking for Imrahil and Beregar. When the young men left, Denethor decided to look at Edoras. There was not much to see. The entire village could be known in less than an hour. There was no market place within it, nor any great building save Meduseld, nor even a common tavern. Behind the hall there were some low stone storehouses, made of river-rock and broken stone bound with coarse mortar. Tow-headed children followed him and women watched from their doorways. If he bowed, they would giggle and bow or curtsy in return. He walked back up the stone way, noting where the dressed stone had come loose near turns and along the edges, and how it had been repaired with simple cobbles. Denethor climbed the steps to Meduseld. One of the guards stood to give the guest a stone seat. From there, Denethor looked at the paved street snaking its way down the hill. It is not enough to build a durable foundation. That is but the start. Then it must be tended, and with knowledge, else the repairs but cobble things together. Denethor did not understand why the Rohirrim did not ask for a stonemason to be sent to reset and bind the stones of the street. When walking around, he saw that many of the wooden planks used for the alleys were new, replacements for others that had rotted or split. There was not a way in Minas Tirith, no matter how mean, that was not paved. Where is the pride in foundation, to build something to outlast you? Already, after but one morning, Denethor found himself impatient with this place. There was contentment here and honor, even glory, but no thought to greater things. And why should they strive, if all that is made will be unmade, and all that lives shall fail? Denethor had a fleeting memory of the vision of the towers and once more the world seemed dim. He struggled against it like a diver seeking the surface. To make is to be unmade… No. He would not succumb to the Steward's despair and wish destroyed what could not be made eternal. Even so, he felt weighed down, dragged away from the surface by a burden of thought. Denethor rose from his stone seat and returned to the cobbled road, squatting down and studying the juxtaposition of stone cut by hand and that smoothed by a river. It was easier to gather a basket of rocks and pound them into the dirt. It was something an older child could be entrusted to do. Do the Lost have even cobbled streets? Perhaps this is why they wander. There must at least be farms. It was a peculiar idea, that one might not have a home, but also an enticing one. To be able to just go… 'I knew Gondorians loved stone, but did not realize the romance was so complete.' Denethor jumped at the voice and almost fell over. Thengel stood next to him, face crinkled in amusement. 'What fascinates you so much?' 'The disrepair of the street.' Denethor stood, feeling foolish. 'There are stonemasons…' 'I know.' Thengel's humor disappeared. 'I know all there is in Minas Tirith that is not here.' The king motioned with his chin. 'Come with me. I am off to watch the young men at their practice.' Thengel did not wait for an answer but briskly set off down the road. Denethor followed him out of Edoras to a low hill overlooking some lowlands between the road and the Snowbourn. There a number of horsemen were gathered, practicing with spear and bow, shouting insults and encouragement to each other in equal measure. Denethor could see Imrahil and Beregar in the midst of the Rohirrim, very much a part of the drills. Thengel motioned towards a large flat stone, indicating they should sit. As the king did not seem inclined to talk, Denethor watched the horsemen. Soon, he could pick out a pattern from the hurly-burly; there was an order to who followed whom, which weapons were used, even what insults were offered. Théoden kept the squad moving constantly, shifting speed and direction at a shouted command, a whistle, or an arm motion. The golden riders changed between spear and bow with grace, the two ravens among them less so. Théoden kept a close eye on his guests, skillfully guiding them in the intricate weave of attack, retreat, reform. 'Your son orders his men well. Even the new recruits.' 'He has earned it.' Thengel watched his son with pride. 'King's heir or no, he had to prove himself worthy to be First Marshal. That is his own éored, gathered from across the Riddermark and trained to his approval. It was this company that held off the orc incursion through the Wold last summer. Even with what we send to you, Rohan is not left unguarded.' 'Théoden has not commanded the Riders in Gondor.' 'Nor will he.' 'Not after the marriage, of course.' 'I do not want him to serve Gondor.' Denethor left off watching the horsemen and turned to face Thengel. The king's face was stony. 'His place is here.' Thengel's gaze returned to Théoden. 'He must not be divided. It must never occur to him that there are things to be found elsewhere.' 'You lived a long time in Gondor.' 'Twenty-four years. I would fain have stayed the rest of my life.' The old man once more looked at Denethor, his blue eyes sharp. 'Once, when I was foolish, but not so young, I dreamed of remaking this simple place into a great city, of bringing my people finally out of twilight.' He laughed, a mere bark of derision. 'I have lived another four and twenty years, and age will soon end my foolishness. I have learned to be silent on it, but it stalks my dreams and stands as a rebuke.' The king rose and waved to the éored below. The company wheeled smoothly, even the ravens, and charged up the hillside. King and Warden found themselves surrounded. Thengel praised the horsemen and exchanged loving words with Théoden, then bade them continue. The horsemen would not leave before they sang of their king's valor and wisdom, then saluted and left in a thunder. Thengel walked back to Meduseld. Denethor followed as he had not been dismissed. 'No,' Thengel began as though their conversation had not been interrupted, 'he will lift them no higher, but there will be contentment. I also begin to wonder where our enemies will come from. The Great Enemy rises, it is true, but I am concerned about our western borders as well.' 'Curunír?' 'You mean Saruman, the wizard? Perhaps. Dunlendings most certainly. Orcs return to the mountains near the Gap.' 'Is there trouble from the wizard? Queen Morwen said she thought him unfriendly.' 'Unfriendly? Oh, yes. But I do not know if he is a threat. He does not allow Eorlingas to draw near Orthanc. He will protect Dunlendings who flee to his lands. Even so, he has offered us no harm directly.' 'Wizards perform their works out of sight.' 'Hmm.' The two passed through the gate and walked up the hill. 'Théoden will think of Rohan, but he will not forget Gondor.' 'Is that why you allowed him to come last fall?' 'Yes. He will regard Gondor with honor, but his heart will live always here and he will be a beloved king.' Softly, as though speaking to himself, Thengel said, 'Had I known such a king, I would not have known Gondor.' 'Will you not see her once more? This winter.' 'Yes, I would like that.' They continued up to Meduseld and took seats upon the terrace. Far off, they could see the éored finish its drill. 'Thank you for bringing Imrahil. It pleases Morwen to have a kinsman here. He was not doing too badly in the drills.' 'I saw.' 'Your squire is quite good as well. Better than the other boy.' Denethor waited, curious at Thengel's words. 'Would you be interested in having him remain?' 'I do not understand.' Thengel shrugged. 'Not all wives are pleased by kinsmen.' It was several moments before Denethor understood what Thengel was suggesting. As he could give no answer to the question, he stood and bowed to Thengel, then returned to the guesthouse. The house was empty. Denethor took a seat and pulled out the book with its letters tucked inside, laying his treasures on the table before him. It was difficult to think; now said, Denethor was amazed at his own blindness, and wondered who else had arrived at the same conclusion as Thengel. Surely, you have not, Alquallë. You know the truth. This is what Morwen meant, that I would but cause more harm with rumors. Denethor deliberately read over each letter, then read from the book. Food arrived at noontide, then again in the evening, accompanied by the others of his party and apologies from Morwen for laying no table. The wedding feast was tomorrow and the hall was being readied. That night, Denethor dreamed of Gondolin falling. Edoras was in merry chaos the next morning and promised to remain that way until early-evening when the feast would begin. Morwen appropriated Brandir first thing to assist. Denethor sized up the situation and went to the stables to ask for Gaerhûl to be readied. Within an hour of the sun's rising, he was riding south towards Harrowdale. Beregar and Imrahil caught up with him not long afterwards and the three journeyed into the steep, narrow vale. By midmorning they had reached the wall below the mountains, with a narrow switchback road leading upwards to a high meadow, and climbed the steep way. Denethor felt a sense of wonder at the weathered carvings marking each turn in the path. They stopped at the meadow and ate some dinner, Beregar having slipped bread, cheese, and sausage from the kitchens. Far away north, Denethor could just make out the glimmer of Meduseld's roof. While the horses grazed, the men walked along the track that led between a double row of black stones. The closer they drew to a forest of dark pines, the stronger Denethor felt a sense of dread. It was akin to the sensation he experienced in the Osgiliath battles, of hatred and evil so cold it froze the soul, but this was less piercing, more like a numbing fog leaching life from a traveler's limbs. They stopped at the forest's eaves and peered into the gloom under the boughs, but even Denethor did not care to venture into the darkness, nor did he try to touch the standing stones. He contented himself with pocketing a fragment of stone that had fallen from one of the watcher statues. They collected the horses and were back to Edoras in good time to wash and dress for the feast. Near sunset, Théoden and his bride spoke their wedding vows upon the terrace before the hall. They spoke Rohirric, not the speech of Gondor as the court usually spoke. Denethor understood most of it, though he had to concentrate. The open ground before Meduseld was packed with Rohirrim, and more filled the main street and the lanes just off the hilltop. When Théoden kissed the girl to seal their pledge, the wooden walls of Edoras reverberated with the onlookers' joyous shouts. The doors of Meduseld were thrown open and people crowded inside for the feast. More tables and benches were set up before the hall. Denethor found himself seated next to Thengel at the high table. There were many toasts, and boasts, before the food was passed and a low rumble of talk filled the room. 'I must apologize, Lord Denethor,' Thengel said cheerfully. 'I did not mean to drive my most noble guest away with the hubbub this morning.' 'I wished to view Harrowdale, which I have heard described many times, and the day seemed good for riding.' 'Good! Good!' the king replied. His voice dropped as he added, 'I beg leave for my presumption of yesterday. I fear I have insulted you.' Denethor studied Thengel's face. The words were sincerely meant, but there was also a challenge in the other's blue gaze. 'There is no reason to leave my hound anywhere.' 'Truly?' Thengel's expression was amused and unconvinced. 'Truly.' When all had eaten their fill, people came and went in the hall. Denethor took advantage of this to leave the high table, following the new couple outside where there was dancing. He found a dark corner where he could watch everything without being seen. Théoden and the girl held court while other young people toasted them and tossed slightly ribald compliments at them. The couple took it all in good cheer, drinking, kissing, and dancing as the crowd demanded. Now and again he spotted Beregar and Imrahil among the revelers. He had not been able to give the man much attention during the ride, but now Denethor examined Beregar's face and gestures intently. There was no denying the Hound's resemblance to the Steward's offspring, but Denethor did not know his own face well enough to say that the two of them looked enough alike to be sire and get. 'And none too soon!' Some men were standing just past Denethor, backs to him, watching Théoden and Elfhild try to drink out of a horn at the same time. One of the men was the dark-haired fellow who had stared at him the evening before. The son stood nearby and there were two others. 'Finally, we'll have a proper queen,' the dark-haired man said in a gloating tone. Denethor had to strain to understand the Rohirric speech. 'Yes, Gálmód, you have that right,' the taller of the other two men replied. 'No more arrogant women who cannot speak their lord's tongue!' 'I am not sure the lord knows his own tongue,' was Gálmód's sneering reply. 'He has too long been under the sway of foreign things.' 'Shh!' the second man entreated. Denethor drew a little further into the shadows. 'There's no call to speak so!' 'You're half ensorcelled yourself, Gram,' snapped Gálmód. 'What have we to do with such deceitful ways? We are hedged about by wizards and dwimmer-crafty women and men who think naught of spilling our blood as their own fails. We need a true king, who spends not his time always wishing he were bounded by stone.' The tall man sharply signaled for Gálmód to be quiet, which made the other snort and stride off, his son at his heels. Gram and the tall man whispered fiercely to each other before slinking away in the other direction. Denethor wondered if Thengel knew that rebellious words were spoken openly among the townsfolk. Given his words of yesterday, he does and knows what has caused this discontent. He prepares for what is best for Rohan even as he would fain lead his people another way. Denethor was not particularly dismayed by Gálmód's words against Gondor – there were those in Gondor who resented the use of the Rohirrim – but wondered what status this man held in Edoras. Was he a tradesman, a farmer, a rider? There was not much formality as to who of the town could dine in the king's hall. Denethor also was intrigued by the man's words about wizards. Not simply Curunír, I deem. What trouble have you been stirring up among the horsemen, Mithrandir? He had not considered that perhaps these two wizards were working in concert. It would appear that I have not given enough attention to our northern borders. A quick glance said that the carousing was not going to end soon. He trusted Beregar would keep the young prince out of any serious trouble, and returned to the hall. Thengel and Morwen sat with some others at the high table, speaking cheerfully, while a minstrel led a group of children in a clapping song about farm animals near the central hearth. Brandir, sitting next to the queen, saw Denethor and waved him over. 'There you are, Denethor,' Brandir said. 'I wondered where you had wandered to. You have been missing for most of two days.' 'I did not wish to interfere with wedding preparations.' 'An excellent decision, Warden,' Morwen interjected , 'and good practice for you. Simply say "yes" to whatever the women plan if you wish to enjoy your own wedding.' Denethor bowed in acknowledgement of her wisdom. 'I shall hold your advice dear, Queen Morwen.' Thengel motioned for Denethor to sit next to him and poured him a mug of ale. 'Denethor, I know that your duties are many, but will you agree to bide a while with us here in Edoras? I promise things will be quieter by tomorrow.' 'Alas, my duties demand that I depart tomorrow, or at the latest the day afterwards.' 'Nonsense, Denethor!' Brandir objected, 'There is naught so pressing in Minas Tirith that you must return at once.' 'I did not say I was returning to Gondor.' 'Where then do you go?' asked Thengel, blue eyes alight with curiosity. 'I am off to see a wizard.' *** As it turned out, Denethor did not set out until the morning of the third day after the wedding, and he did not go alone. Thengel decided that he, too, wished to speak to Curunír, and Morwen announced she was going with them. The extra day's delay was caused by the king and queen trying to convince each other to remain in Edoras. Neither succeeded. Denethor had greater success making Beregar remain behind with Brandir and Imrahil. A half-dozen of the Gondorian soldiers attended Denethor and two dozen riders followed their king and queen. Also in attendance were four of Thengel's counselors, including Gálmód. Each counselor had several horsemen, and Gálmód had his son, no doubt so the young man could learn statecraft. The company was rounded out by a string of pack horses and a hostler. Thengel stood, wearing no armor but with a sword on his hip, and surveyed the gathered men with a wry chuckle. 'All this to pay a call on a neighbor.' His blue eyes twinkled as he glanced at Denethor. 'We did not get a chance to ride together, Warden, when I was in Gondor. Now we shall correct that.' 'I hope there is no occasion for battle on this ride, Thengel,' Denethor replied. Ahead of them, they watched Morwen mount her horse and ride towards them. She carried a short bow and a quiver of arrows. 'Indeed not,' Thengel softly answered. Morwen reined up before them. 'Good morrow, my queen. You are determined in this foolishness?' 'As long as you are, my heart,' she answered firmly, 'I will not be parted from thee, not even if there is danger.' Thengel sighed but smiled. 'Then let us be off.' Gaerhûl and the king's horse were brought over, and soon they were fording the Snowbourn and heading west. It would be fourteen days to reach Isengard and return. Word of the king's travel ran ahead of them, and there were often groups of people afoot or on horseback at the side of the road, waiting for Thengel to pass and asking for his blessing. Denethor wondered where they all came from. Once in a while he would see a few houses together, spy a herdsman out upon the rolling plain to the north, or see wood smoke rising from behind a fold in the foothills to the south. The land was beautiful, a great green sea of grass that reached from the road to the edge of sight north and east, but it was barren. Far away, he saw the first spires of Hithaeglir, with a low, dark smudge he knew must be the ancient Fangorn forest just to its east. He was glad for the reassuring bulk of the Ered Nimrais beside them, providing an anchor against the vast nothing of the plains. Denethor wanted mountains and high places, trees and hills. Ithilien, for all of its danger, was more inviting than the plains of Rohan. For the first day, Denethor did little but observe the king and his counselors. Gálmód surprised him. From the man's surly behavior in Edoras, Denethor had expected he would be either disdainful or flattering towards his king. Instead, the man was stern and direct. The man's darkness set him apart from the other men, as did his short-stature, but he held himself as proudly as any of the golden riders. His words were as proud as his carriage, chosen carefully and pronounced with dignity. Denethor listened closely so his own Rohirric would improve. It was clear that he was chief among Thengel's advisors, which made the man's words at the wedding more mysterious. Thengel asked for Gálmód's wisdom about planting, the weather, weanling foals, the making of ale, and many other things. In all of his answers, the counselor referred to the acts of past kings, or the wisdom in songs and tales, or the practices of their forefathers. He often corrected the faulty memories of the other counselors and always knew the customary way for doing this or that. The son, Gríma, said nothing if not spoken to, but listened attentively to everything. The only thing in which Gálmód did not appear the master was conversing with the queen. He insisted in speaking Sindarin when addressing her directly, and mangled the speech enough to make Denethor wince. From the overly-patient look on Morwen's face, he assumed this was a long standing state between them. Thengel and the other counselors pretended not to hear it. Denethor did not understand how Thengel could allow Morwen to be insulted in this way, particularly as the other counselors spoke both Westron and Sindarin to her, and none spoke the latter as atrociously as Gálmód. When they halted for dinner at noon on the second day, the eldest counselor, a man named Walda, asked in Sindarin if he could sit next to Denethor and speak to him. 'Please do,' Denethor answered in Westron. 'We should speak in the Common Tongue, though, as I know not your noble speech and I would not have you speak my own when I cannot return the courtesy.' Walda bowed. 'Thank you, Lord Denethor, that is kind of you.' The man had questions about the battles of last winter. He had been a rider in Gondor at the same time as Thengel, though not for as long, and his grandson was now in Anórien near Cair Andros. It turned out this was the man who actually selected which riders would be sent. He was very curious about how the riders were being used now and what Denethor believed would come in the next year. 'Orcs in Ithilien, mostly, and raiding along the coasts. The victories of last summer did great harm to the Easterlings and to Harad. What do you see here?' Walda shrugged. 'There are orcs out of the Misty Mountains more than before, and sometimes from the Emyn Muil. What concerns me most are the Dunlendings.' As the man spoke, his eyes moved to Gálmód. 'They are sly and devious folk, skulking in shadows. They ever swear fealty and friendship, we treat them with honor, and then they betray us. They will wait many years for their plans to unfold.' Walda's voice softened and he spoke in his own tongue, 'Even when they say they are of us, they plot our destruction.' 'Excuse me?' Denethor asked politely, allowing his brow to furrow in confusion. 'I did not understand your last words, Walda.' 'Forgive me, Warden, I said I hope they have not found favor with the wizard.' *** They arrived at Aglarond midday on the third day. Denethor was glad to leave behind the empty plain and enter a green valley that rose into the mountains. For the first time, the land was thickly settled, reminding him of the southern vales. The cots were modest, but in good repair, and the land well tended. The heat of the plain retreated in the face of cool breezes flowing down from the mountains. Thengel said they should lodge in the garrison since their company would be too large for any farmstead to manage. Alebrand, the young lord of the vale, had joined them on their journey to Aglarond and insisted on staying with the king and queen in the fortress; even his substantial house would not suffice to hold them all. Denethor agreed, wishing to see the ancient fortress at the top of the vale. When he saw the spire of the tower and the stout curtain wall, however, he could not help but feel some disappointment. It was a squat thing, built from local stone, and there was little grace to it. It had been raised by Tarannon Falastur after the division of Arnor to augment the defense of the Fords of Isen provided by Angrenost, for the king had wisely seen that the north would soon lose sway over Enedwaith. That king cared only for the sea and gave little thought to anything that did not touch water. Even so, the stonework was strong and the whole well wrought. Once inside, it was another matter. The open space behind the wall had encouraged the Rohirrim to scatter their garrison. Too used to horses as their legs, their outbuildings straggled up the gorge behind the wall. While the horses themselves were on pickets inside the fortress, fowl and goats wandered freely. The inhabited part of the tower was neatly kept, with sturdy furniture, well-scrubbed floors, and bright hangings to soften the echoes. Most of the tower chambers were locked. Twenty times the number of soldiers that were there would have been sufficient for the garrison. Thengel insisted that Denethor should go with Alebrand and see the caves further up the gorge. The king himself declined the jaunt, saying he had seen them before. In truth, he looked weary, and Denethor did not miss Morwen's worried glances. His concern for Thengel disappeared when he saw the caverns. Perhaps they were wise, the builders, to make the defense so plain. It could not compare with this glory. He spent several hours following Alebrand about, awed by the subterranean splendor. Menegroth could not have been more beautiful. It was near dark by the time they emerged and supper awaited them. To Denethor's relief, the short rest had left Thengel looking much restored. After the hearty meal, Denethor excused himself to stroll upon the curtain wall and look down the vale. He could just see over the parapet. When he leaned against the wall, Finduilas's book pressed into his chest and Denethor wished for a glimpse of her, or even a new letter – none had come with the messengers from Minas Tirith. Under his fingers, the stone murmured of summer heat and winter ice and siege. Like himself, it was lonely. Footsteps warned him that another approached. It did not surprise him that the visitor was Gálmód. 'Why are you following me?' Denethor asked in Westron. 'I only came to see if you…' Gálmód began in his twisted Sindarin. 'Your horse speaks better than you do,' Denethor crisply replied, still speaking Westron, 'though I doubt you are as clumsy with your words as you pretend. Speak like a civilized man or go talk to the animals.' 'Arrogant pig,' Gálmód grumbled in Rohirric. 'I have been around enough Riders to have picked up that much of your tongue,' Denethor said, 'however, as I said, I only care for civil speech, whatever the language.' Gálmód glared, but said nothing. The top of the man's head did not reach the height of the parapet. 'You are deep in the king's counsels, Gálmód. Why do you so dislike Rohan's greatest and most faithful ally?' 'Because you are arrogant pigs,' Gálmód said in Westron. 'Uncouth in any language, I see' Denethor dryly noted, 'Perhaps we should return to Sindarin. Then I would not understand you.' 'You men of the West are too proud and too clever,' Gálmód growled. 'You are jealous.' 'No! I do not want what you would offer, for it is given deceitfully. For all your greatness, you have naught to give but only take,' was the hot reply. 'You look down from your high places and think all others to be less than you.' And if they are lesser? If they live rudely and wish for nothing beyond a full belly and some songs to sing? 'You would fault me for liking the mountains? I fault you not for liking the plains. It sounds to me as if you doubt your own worth.' 'Never would I doubt Rohan. This is a clean place, a simple place, far from your dark whispers. You steal our kings and leave them dead, or send them back ensorcelled.' 'And never have your kings fallen in battle save at Gondor's behest?' 'The Eorlingas are greater than you entombed specters!' Gálmód spat, 'We are not in misery and filth like the Wild Men to the west, nor will we partake of your decadence and decline. We could tame the West were we not always drawn into your battles. Did we not come from the east and tame this?' Gálmód gestured north towards the plains. 'You came in and settled on the foundations laid twenty-five hundred years or more before, like this,' Denethor tapped the wall, 'and have yet to raise anything to compare. Before you dream of taming the west, perhaps you would care to learn a few simple crafts, such as stone masonry?' With a nod, Denethor walked back to the tower. Playlist Navigation Bar

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Dealing with Worries and Stress English Translation Book by Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid. It is the nature of this life that people will suffer from worries and stress, because this world is the place of disease, hardship and suffering. Hence among the things that distinguish Paradise from this world is the fact that there is no worry or stress]. It is also the nature of this life that people have to put up with suffering and hardship for various reasons, as is indicated in the Qur’aan (interpretation of the meaning): “Verily, We have created man in toil.” [al-Balad 90:4]. So people feel regret for what has happened in the past, anxious about what may happen in the future, and worried about what is going on in the present. The things that cross our minds. People’s worries and concerns will also differ, according to the differences in their motivations, circumstances and individual responsibilities. One type of worry or concern is that which may be described as worthwhile worries that are a good sign, such as a scholar’s anxiety to resolve difficult issues concerning which the Muslims need an answer – especially when the matter is very serious and there appears to be no solution. Another example is the concern of the Muslim leader about the problems of the people under his care. This is what made the two ‘Umars (i.e. ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab and ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Azeez) and other leaders worried and anxious. ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab used to think about how to prepare the army whilst he was praying, and he was excused for that; he also used to worry about the animals stumbling in the land of ‘Iraaq. ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Azeez used to express his suffering thus: “I am dealing with something with which no one could help me except Allaah. The elderly have reached the ends of their lives with it (in this situation), the youth have grown up with it; the foreigners have learnt Arabic and the Bedouin have migrated to the cities in these circumstances. [It is so well-entrenched] that they think this is religion, and they can see the truth nowhere else but in this.” When the khilaafah passed to him and the people gave their bay’ah (oath of allegiance) to him, he came home, feeling anxious and stressed. His freed slave said to him: “Why do I see you so anxious and stressed? This is not how you should be on such an occasion as this.” He said, “Woe to you! How could I not be anxious when there is no one in the East nor the West of this ummah who is not demanding his rights of me or asking me to help settle some matter with another person, whether he writes down his request or not, whether he asks me directly or not?” The more any decision had to do with the fate of the Muslims, the greater the anxiety and stress involved. Hence when ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf was entrusted with the task of selecting the next khaleefah for the Muslims, after the death of ‘Umar, he did not sleep during that period, because he was so busy consulting the Muslims, even the old women. Other types of commendable concern include: the concern of the dai’yah who is striving to spread Islam and convey the message, guiding others to the path of Guidance; the concern of the worshipper to ensure that his worship is correct both in intention and practice; and the concern of the Muslim for the suffering of his brothers in faith throughout the world… Kinds of anxieties that may result from committing sin include: the distress suffered after shedding blood wrongfully; or the anxiety of a woman who is pregnant as a result of fornication or adultery. Kinds of distress that result from wrongful treatment at the hands of others include that suffered because of mistreatment by one's own relatives, as the poet said: “The wrong suffered at the hands of those who are closely-related is more painful to bear than a blow from a powerful sword.” Distress suffered because of the calamities that happen in this world include: chronic or serious diseases, disobedience of children towards their parents, hostility on the part of one’s wife or mistreatment on the part of one’s husband. Some kinds of anxiety result from fears about what may lie ahead in the future, for example a father may be worried about what will happen to his children after he dies, especially if they are weak and he has nothing to leave behind for them. These are a few examples of different kinds of stress and worry. We will discuss the matter in further detail below: [ Table of Contents ] 2. Kinds of Stress and Worry: The distress suffered by the dai’yah when he calls his people to Islam. The Prophets had more than their fair share of this kind of stress. ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) told her nephew (the son of her sister) ‘Urwah that she asked the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Did you ever suffer any day worse than the day of Uhud?” He said: “I suffered what I suffered at the hands of your people, and the worst that I suffered from them was on the day of ‘Aqabah, when I had made an appeal to Ibn ‘Abd Yaalayl ibn ‘Abd Kalaal and he did not respond in the way I had hoped for. I left him, hardly knowing where I was going, and I did not realize where I was until I had reached Qarn al-Tha’aalib. I raised my head, and saw a cloud which was shading me. I looked in it, and saw Jibraa’eel, who called to me and said: ‘Allaah has heard what your people have said to you, and their response to you. He has sent to you the Angel of the Mountains, to do whatever you tell him to do to them.’ Then the Angel of the Mountains called to me, greeted me, and said, ‘O Muhammad, if you wish, I will crush them between two mountains.’” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Rather, I hope that Allaah will bring forth from their descendents people who will worship Allaah alone and not associate anything with Him.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) suffered similar distress when his people disbelieved his account of his Night Journey (Israa’). Muslim (may Allaah have mercy on him) narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I found myself in the Hijr (an area in the Haram in Makkah, near the Ka’bah), and Quryash were asking me about my Night Journey, questions about Bayt al-Maqdis that I was not sure of. I felt more distressed and anxious than I had ever felt, then Allaah raised it for me so that I could see what they were asking me about and answer all their questions…” Concern about acts of worship. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was very concerned about telling people about salaat (prayer). Abu ‘Umayr ibn Anas reported from his (paternal) uncles among the Ansaar that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was worried about how to gather the people together for prayers. Someone suggested that he set up a flag, so that people would see it and tell one another, but he did not like this idea. Another suggestion was a ram’s horn (the shofar of the Jews), but he did not like this idea, and said, “This belongs to the Jews.” Someone else suggested a bell, but he said, “This belongs to the Christians.” ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Zayd ibn ‘Abd Rabbihi went away, worrying about the concern of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and he was shown the adhaan (call to prayer) in a dream. The next morning he came to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and told him about it: “O Messenger of Allaah, whilst I was half asleep and half awake, someone came to me and showed me the adhaan…” The anxiety faced by the truthful person when he is disbelieved. This happened to the great Sahaabi Zayd ibn al-Arqam (may Allaah be pleased with him), when he heard the chief of the munaafiqeen (hypocrites) saying to his colleagues: “When we return to Madeenah, the one who has pride and power will expel the one who is humiliated” (meaning that the “one who has pride and power” was himself, and the “one who is humilated” was the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and the people with him). Zayd said: “I told my (paternal) uncle, and he went and informed the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sent for (the chief of the munaafiqeen, ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ubayy), who swore that he had said no such thing. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) believed him and not me. My uncle came to me and scolded me: “All you wanted was for the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and the Muslims to hate you and disbelieve you!” I felt extreme anxiety and stress, such as no one has ever suffered. When I was on a journey with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), I hung my head with worry. Then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came up to me, tweaked my ear, and smiled at me. I felt happy in a way that I would not exchange immortal life in this world for that feeling. Then Abu Bakr caught up with me and asked me what the Messenger of Allaah had said to me. I said, ‘He did not say anything, but he tweaked my ear and smiled at me.’ He told me, ‘ Be of good cheer!’ Then ‘Umar caught up with me and I told him what I had told Abu Bakr. The next morning, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) recited Soorat al-Munaafiqoon to us.’” According to a report narrated by Muslim, which tells the same story, Zayd said: “I came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and told him about it. He sent for ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ubayy and asked him about it, but he insisted and swore that he had done no such thing, saying, ‘Zayd is telling lies to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).’ I felt very hurt because of what they said, until Allaah revealed words confirming that I had spoken the truth (interpretation of the meaning): ‘When the hypocrites come to you…’ [al-Munaafiqoon 63:1]” The anxiety suffered by an innocent person when false accusations are made. An example of this is what happened to ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) when the munaafiqoon accused her of sin during the campaign of Muraysi’. She was ill, and when she heard the news of the rumours from one of the women of her household, she became even sicker, and felt very distressed. She said: “I said, ‘Subhaan-Allaah! Are people talking about that?’ I wept all night, until morning, and never slept; my tears never stopped falling. Then I wept all day, and never slept; my tears never stopped falling. My parents came to me the next morning, after I had cried for two nights and a day, without ceasing and without sleeping. They thought that this weeping would kill me. Whilst they were sitting with me, and I was crying, a woman of the Ansaar asked permission to see me. I gave her permission, and she sat down, weeping with me. Whilst we were sitting thus, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came in, greeted us, and sat down. He had not come to visit me since the rumours had started, and for a month there had been no Revelation concerning my situation. Whilst he was sitting there, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) recited the Shahaadah, then he said: ‘O ‘Aa’ishah, I have heard such-and-such about you. If you are innocent, Allaah will prove your innocence, and if you did commit a sin, then ask for Allaah’s forgiveness and repent to Him, for when the slave admits his sin and repents to Allaah, Allaah will accept his repentance. When the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had finished what he had to say, my tears stopped completely, and I said to my father: ‘Respond to what the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has said.’ He said, ‘By Allaah, I do not know what I should say to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).’ I said to my mother: ‘Respond to what the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has said.’ She said, ‘By Allaah, I do not know what I should say to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).’ I said: ‘I am only a young girl and I do not know much of the Qur’aan. By Allaah, I have nothing to say to you except the words of the father of Yoosuf: “… So (for me) patience is most fitting. And it is Allaah (Alone) Whose help can be sought against that which you assert.” [Yoosuf 12:18].’ Then I turned away and lay down on my bed. Then Allaah revealed (interpretation of the meaning): ‘Verily! Those who brought forth the slander (against ‘Aa’ishah) are a group among you. Consider it not a bad thing for you…’” [al-Noor 24:11 – see complete passage, aayat 11 to 20]. Before ‘Aa’ishah’s time, Maryam bint ‘Imraan had suffered a great deal of stress and anxiety because she became pregnant without being married. Her distress reached such an extent that: “…She said: ‘Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!’” [Maryam 19:23 – interpretation of the meaning]. She spoke thus because she knew that people would accuse her and not believe her when she came to them with a child in her arms, because she had been one of the devoted female worshippers who lived in seclusion close to the mosque, and she came from a very religious household and was descended from Prophets. Because of all this, she bore such a great burden of anxiety that she wished that she had died before this happened to her, or that she “had been forgotten and out of sight,” in other words, that she had never been created at all. Another example is the story of the women who was accused unjustly. ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) told her story: “A black woman who belonged to some of the Arabs became Muslim. She had a cubicle in the mosque. She used to come to us and talk with us, and when she had finished conversing with us, she told us: ‘The day of the wishaah (an ornamented girdle worn by women) was one of the wonders of our Lord. Indeed, it is He Who saved me from the land of kufr (disbelief).’” When she repeated this several times, ‘Aa’ishah asked her, “What was the day of the girdle?” She said: “A young girl who belonged to some of my people went out wearing a girdle made of leather. She dropped it, and a kite (a kind of hawk) came and swooped it up, thinking that it was a piece of meat. They accused me of taking it, and they began to punish me, to the extent that they even searched my private parts. Whilst they were surrounding me and I was in that state of distress, the kite flew back over our heads and dropped the belt. They picked it up, and I said to them: ‘This is what you accused me of, and I was innocent!’” A man’s worry about what may happen to his wife and children after his death. ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) reported that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to say: “One of the things that concerns me is what will happen to you [his wives] after my death, for none will be able to take care of you properly except those who are truly patient.” Anxiety because of a loan. An example of this is what happened to al-Zubayr (may Allaah be pleased with him), whose story was told by his son ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Zubayr: “When al-Zubayr stood up to fight at the Battle of the Camel, he called me, so I went and stood by his side. He said: ‘O my son, no-one will be killed today except one who is a wrongdoer or one to whom wrong is done. I can see that I will die today as one to whom wrong is done. My greatest concern is my debts – do you think that any of our wealth will be left after paying off our debts? O my son, sell our property and pay off our debts.’” ‘Abd-Allaah said: “He started to advise me what to do about his debt, and told me: ‘O my son, if you are unable to pay off anything, seek the help of my mawlaa.’ By Allaah, I did not know what he meant until I asked, ‘O my father, who is your mawlaa?’ He said: ‘Allaah.’ By Allaah, every time I felt distress because of difficulty in paying off his debt, I prayed, ‘O Mawlaa of al-Zubayr, pay off his debt,’ and Allaah paid it off…’” ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Zubayr said: “I calculated how much he owed, and found it to be two million and two hundred thousand… (some of al-Zubayr’s friends did not think it possible to pay off such a great debt, but Allaah greatly blessed some land belonging to al-Zubayr, and surprisingly enough, when it was divided up and sold off, there was enough to pay off the debt and have something left over)…Al-Zubayr had four wives: one-third of his wealth was put aside for them, and each wife got one million and two hundred thousand. The total sum of his wealth was fifty million and two hundred thousand.” Anxiety caused by dreams. This happened to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as he said: “Whilst I was sleeping, the treasures of the earth were brought to me, and two armlets of gold were placed on my arms. That distressed me, but Allaah revealed to me that I should blow them away, so I did so, and they disappeared. I interpreted them as being the two liars whom I am facing, the one in Sana’aa’ and the one in al-Yamaamah.” Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him and his father) also felt distress because of a dream which he saw. He told us about it: “Some men among the Companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to see dreams at the time of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). They used to tell him about them, and he would say ‘Ma sha’ Allaah.’ I was a young boy, and I used to live in the mosque before I got married. I said to myself, ‘If you were any good, you would have seen something like these people have seen.’ When I lay down that night, I said, ‘O Allaah, if You see any good in me, then let me see a dream.’ Then two angels came to me, each of whom was holding an iron bridle in his hand. They dragged me to Hell, and I was praying, ‘O Allaah, I seek refuge with you from Hell.’ Then I dreamt that I was met by another angel, who was also holding an iron bridle in his hand. He said, ‘Do not worry, you are a good man, if only you prayed more.’ They took me to the edge of Hell, and it was shaped like a well with horns; between every two horns was an angel holding an iron bridle. I saw in it men suspended upside down from chains, and I recognized some men of Quraysh. Then they led me off towards the right. I told Hafsah about it, and Hafsah told the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). (According to a report narrated by Muslim: “When I woke up, I felt worried and scared about what I had seen, so I asked Hafsah about it, and she said, ‘It is good, what you have seen.’ I said to her, ‘Ask the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) about it,’ so she asked him.”) The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘ ‘Abd-Allaah is a righteous man, if only he prayed at night.’” Naafi’ said: “After that, he always prayed a great deal.” Islam prescribes a number of ways to deal with the distress that results from seeing nightmares and frightening dreams. Having described a number of kinds of distress and anxiety experienced in this world, we will now discuss ways of dealing with them. Undoubtedly the first thing we should mention when discussing worries and anxiety is: ‘aqeedah (belief) and eeman (faith), and the effects they have on dealing with stress. One can see many of the kuffaar and Muslims who are weak in faith suffering breakdowns and committing suicide in an effort to rid themselves of depression, frustration and despair when they get into trouble or when disaster strikes. Hospitals are full of patients who are suicidal or have suffered nervous breakdowns, or other kinds of psychological trauma. These problems affect many of those who are strong, let alone those who are weak. How often they lead to complete incapacity and loss of sanity! The person who has been guided to Islam, if his ‘aqeedah is sound and his eemaan is strong, will find the cure in that which has come from Allaah, the All-Knowing and All-Aware, Who created all things and Who knows best what befits His creation. “Should not He Who has created know? And He is the Most Kind and Courteous (to His slaves) All-Aware (of everything).” [al-Mulk 67:14 – interpretation of the meaning]. 3. Islam's Treatment for Anxiety and Worry Let us now discuss some of the different kinds of remedies and treatments taught by Islam: 1. Equipping oneself with eemaan (faith), accompanied by righteous deeds. Allaah says (interpretation of the] The reason for this is clear: the believers in Allaah whose faith is correct and motivates them to do righteous deeds that reform their hearts and characters, and change their status in this world and the next, have the basic principles according to which they deal with every kind of joy and grief that they may face. They receive blessings and joys with acceptance and thanksgiving, and put them to use in beneficial ways. When they do this, they feel happy and hope that it will last and will bring them reward for their gratitude, as well as other things that will supercede the original goodness and blessings. When faced with distress, harm, worries and anxieties, they try to resist them and reduce them as much as they can, and they react with befitting patience to the things in which they have no choice. They gain a lot of benefits as a result, such as: resilience and toughness as is appropriate; useful experience, strong willpower, patience, the hope of reward, and many other benefits which reduce the distress felt. Thus their anxiety is replaced with joy and the hope of blessings and reward from Allaah, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stated in the saheeh hadeeth: .” This is the way in which we may view calamities in a positive light. Another example is: 2. Thinking of how the Muslim may earn expiation for his sins, purify his heart and raise his status, when he is stricken with distress and worry in this life. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Nothing of fatigue, illness, distress, worry, grief or harm befalls the Muslim, not even a prick from a thorn, but Allaah will accept it as expiation for some of is not wasted, but serves a purpose in increasing his hasanaat (good deeds) and expiating for him expiate for his sins, he will rejoice and be of good cheer, especially if that happens to him straight after he has committed a sin, as happened to some of the Sahaabah, may Allaah be pleased with them. ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mughaffal (may Allaah be pleased with him) reported that a man met a woman who had been a prostitute during the time of Jaahiliyyah. He started to joke with her, then he touched her. She told him, “Watch it! Allaah has destroyed shirk (once ‘Affaan said: has destroyed Jaahiliyyah) and has brought us Islam.” The man went away, and walked into a wall, cutting his face. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came along, so the man told him what had happened, and he said: “You are a slave for whom Allah his punishment in this world, and if He does not wish good for him, He withholds the punishment until he is dealt with for his sin on the Day of Resurrection.” 3. Understanding the reality of this world The believer knows that this world is only temporary, that its luxuries are few, and that whatever pleasures exist here are always imperfect. If it causes a little laughter, it gives many reasons to weep; if it gives a little, it withholds far more. The believer is only detained here, as the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “This world is the prison of the believer and the paradise of the kaafir.” This world is also fatigue, pain, misery and suffering, so the believer feels relief when he departs from it. Abu Qutaadah ibn Rib’i al-Ansaari used to say that a funeral passed the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he said: “He is now relieved, and people feel relieved of him.” The people asked, “O Messenger of Allaah, how can he be relieved and people feel relieved of him?” He said, “The believing slave (who dies) is relieved of the fatigue and pain of this world and has gone to the mercy of Allaah; when the rebellious slave dies, people, land, trees and animals are relieved of him.” For the believer, death brings a respite from the distress, worries and pain of this life, as is stated in the hadeeth: “When the believer is about to die, the angels of mercy bring white silk and say, ‘Come out content, with the pleasure of Allaah upon you, to the mercy of Allaah and sweet fragrance and a Lord who is not angry.’ So (the soul) comes out like the best fragrance of musk and the angels hand it to one another until they bring it to the gate of heaven. They say, foul is this stench,’ until they bring it to the souls of the kuffaar.” This understanding of the reality of this world makes it easier for the believer to bear afflictions, pains, distress and anxiety, because he knows that they are an inevitable part of the nature of this life. 4. Following the examples of the Prophets and the righteous The Prophets and the righteous suffered more distress in this world than other people. Each person is tested according to the strength of his faith. If Allaah loves a person, He tests him. Sa’d (may Allaah be pleased with him) asked the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “O Messenger of Allaah, which of the people suffers the most distress?” He said: “The Prophets, then those who come after them (in terms of status), then those who come after them. A man will be tested according to the strength of his faith. If his faith is strong, then the distress with which he is tried will be greater; if his faith is weak, he will be tested in accordance with the level of his faith. Distress will keep on befalling the slave until he walks on the face of the earth free from sin.” 5. Making the Hereafter one’s main concern The concerns of this world overwhelm and confuse people, but if the slave makes the Hereafter his main concern, Allaah will help him to focus and be determined, as was narrated by Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him): “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever has the Hereafter as his main concern, Allaah will fill his heart with a feeling of richness and independence; he will be focused and feel content, and this world will come to him in spite of it. Whoever has this world as his main concern, Allaah will cause him to feel constant fear of poverty; he will be distracted and unfocused, and he will have nothing of this world except what was already predestined for him.’”].” 6. A surprisingly effective remedy: remembering death The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).” 7. Praying to Allaah, may He be exalted Du’aa’ (prayer or supplication) is very beneficial, and includes both protection and treatment. As far as protection in concerned, the Muslim is obliged to turn to Allaah and pray to Him for refuge from distress and to keep him away from it, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to do. His servant Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) tells us: “I used to serve the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when he stayed in Madeenah (i.e. was not travelling). I often used to hear him saying: ‘Allaahaah, I seek refuge with You from distress, grief, incapacity, laziness, miserliness, cowardice, the burden of debt and from being overpowered by men).’”: ).” When distress and pain befall a person, the door of du’aa’ is always open to him; it is never closed. When one calls upon the Most Generous, He will respond and give. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): ] One of the greatest du’aa’s which take away distress and anxiety and bring joy is the famous du’aa’ which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) encouraged everyone who hears it to learn it by heart: important hadeeth indicates the following: the slave should admit that he belongs to Allaah and that he cannot do without Him and has no other master than Allaah; that he should be a slave to Allaah, announce his submission to Him, obey His commandments and heed His prohibitions; that Allaah is directing and controlling him as He wills; that he should demonstrate his submission to Allaah and his acceptance of His decree; that he should pray to Allaah, using all His Names, then ask for what he needs. A number of other al-kareem (There is no god but Allaah, the All-Powerful, the Forbearing; there is no god but Allaah, Lord of the mighty Throne; there is no god but Allaah, Lord of heaven, Lord of earth, and Lord of the noble Throne).” Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) reported that when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was distressed by something, he would say: “Yaa Hayyu yaa Qayyoom bi rahmatika astagheeth (O Ever-Living, O Eternal, by Your mercy I seek help).” Asmaa’ bint)’” If a person thinks about the meaning of these du’aa’s and prays with concentration and a sincere intention, doing all those things that can help to bring about a response, Allaah will fulfil his hopes and do the things asked for; He will turn his distress into joy. If the du’aa’ comes from a heart which is filled with faith, it will dispel worry and bring comfort. The scholars have mentioned many stories of people who prayed to Allaah in times of calamity and distress, and Allaah responded to their prayer and saved them from an enemy, or from drowning, or from starvation or disaster. One example is the story of what happened to the great Sahaabi al-‘Alaa al-Hadrami, who was one of the most prominent scholars and devoted worshippers, one of the close friends (awliyaa’) of Allaah whose du’aa’s are answered. During the campaign against the apostates of Bahrain, he pitched camp, but before the people could settle down, the camels bolted, carrying away all the provisions of the army, including their tents and water, leaving them with nothing but the clothes they were wearing. It was night-time, and they could not restrain even one camel. The people were filled with indescribable distress and alarm, and some of them began making wills to one another (because they felt that death was inevitable). Al-‘Alaa’ called the people together and said: “O people, are you not Muslims? Are you not striving for the sake of Allaah? Are you not the ansaar (supporters) of Allaah?” They said, “Of course.” He said, “Then be of good cheer, for Allaah will not forsake anyone who is in your situation.” When the time for Fajr prayer came, he called the people to pray and led them in prayer, then he knelt up, and the people did likewise. He started to pray (make du’aa’), raising his hands, and the people did likewise. They prayed until the sun rose, and the people began to look at the mirages caused by the sun, shimmering one after another, all the while fervently praying. When he reached the third [??], Allaah created a great stream of fresh water beside them. [‘Alaa’] walked towards it, and the people followed him, then they drank and washed themselves. Before the sun had reached its zenith, the camels started to come back from all directions, bringing the supplies loaded on them, so the people did not lose anything at all, and they were able to give water to the camels. This is one of the signs of Allaah witnessed by the people during that campaign. (Al-Bidaayah your worries will be taken care of and your sin will be forgiven.’” 9. Relying upon Allaah and entrusting matters to Him “When a person knows that Allaah is Able to do all things, that He alone makes choices for His slaves and runs their affairs, that the way He runs His slave’s affairs is better than the way the slave would do it for himself, that He knows better about the slave’s interests than the slave does, that He is more able to achieve them, that He is more sincere and more merciful towards His slave than the slave is to himself; and also knows that he cannot progress or regress any further than the limits that Allaah has decreed for him, for nobody can change the will and decree of Allaah – when a person knows all this, he will submit himself to his Lord and hand over his affairs to Him, throwing himself before his Lord like a weak slave throwing himself before a mighty and powerful king. Allaah deals with His slave as He wishes, and the slave has nothing to do with it. Only after he has submitted thus will the slave feel relief from his distress, worries and regrets. He gives the burden of his needs and interests to One Who is not concerned about how heavy or great the burden is. Allaah will take care of it, instead of him, and will show him His kindness and mercy, without the slave getting tired or worried, because all his concern is now focused on Allaah alone. His worry about his needs and interests in this world has been lifted from him and his heart is now free of this concern. How good his life is now, how blessed his heart and how great his happiness and joy! But as for the person who insists on running his own affairs and making his own choices, whose concern is only for his own share and not for his duties towards his Lord, Allaah will leave him alone with the choices he has made, so he will be surrounded by concerns, worries, distress, grief, fear, exhaustion and depression. His thoughts will be confused, none of his deeds will be pure and none of his hopes will be fulfilled. He will gain no respite, and will enjoy no pleasure. He will never feel joy or contentment. He will be labouring like a working-animal, with no hope of gaining anything that could help him in the Hereafter.” “When a person relies upon Allaah and puts his trust in Him, he is not controlled by bad illusions. He trusts in Allaah and hopes for bounty from Him, which protects him from distress and worry, as well as many psychological and physical diseases. Thus his heart gains indescribable strength, relaxation and joy. The one who is truly free from problems is the one whom Allaah has freed and helped to strive against his own-self (jihaad al-nafs) by seeking beneficial means of strengthening his heart and dispelling anxiety. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “… And whosoever puts his trust in Allaah, then He will suffice him…” [al-Talaaq 65:3] – i.e., He will take care of everything that is of concern to him, whether it has to do with his religion or his worldly affairs. The person who relies on Allaah is strong in heart and is not adversely affected by illusions or things that happen, because he knows that this is a sign of weakness and fear that is unfounded. He also knows that Allaah has guaranteed to take complete care of the one who puts his trust in Him, so he trusts Allaah and has confidence in His promise. Thus his worries and anxiety disappear, hardship is replaced with ease, sadness turns to joy and fear turns to a feeling of security. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and to bless us with strength of heart and steadfastness through complete reliance on Him, for He has guaranteed all goodness and protection from all evil and harm to those who put their trust in Him.” 10. Other ways of dispelling distress and anxiety include paying attention to what is beneficial, focusing on what matters today and no longer worrying about what may happen tomorrow or regretting what happened yesterday Hence the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sought refuge with Allaah from worry and regret: regret for things that have happened in the past which one cannot go back and change, and worries about what may happen in the future. The slave should think only about the present, focusing his energy on doing his best today, because this is what results in perfect work, and helps him to forget his worries and regrets. When the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) prayed a du’aa’, or taught it to his ummah, he encouraged them not only to seek the help of Allaah and hope for His blessings, but also to work hard and strive to achieve the protection they prayed for, for du’aa’ goes hand-in-hand with effort. Thus the slave will strive for whatever benefits him in his religion or his worldly affairs, and will ask his Lord to grant him the result for which he is aiming. He asks Allaah for help, just as Abu Hurayrah reported: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘The strong believer is better and more beloved to Allaah than the weak believer, and both are good. Pay attention to that which could benefit you, seek the help of Allaah and do not feel incapacitated. If anything befalls you, do not say, “If only I had done such-and-such, such a thing would have happened.” Say instead, “It is the decree of Allaah, and what He wills, He does,” for saying “if only…” opens the way for Shaytaan.’” Thus the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) established a link between, on the one hand, his command to strive for beneficial things in every situation, seeking the help of Allaah, and not giving in to feelings of inadequacy which the harmful kind of laziness, and, on the other, giving in to regret for things in the past which are over and done with, and thinking about the will and decree of Allaah. He described things as being of two types: things which the slave can strive to achieve either in totality or as much as he can, or can protect himself from them, or lessen their impact, by making an effort and seeking the help of Allaah; and others about which he cannot do anything, so he should accept them and be content. Undoubtedly, paying attention to this principle will bring about happiness and dispel worry and distress. The hadeeth quoted above indicates that one should strive to eliminate the causes of distress and bring about causes of happiness, by forgetting about bad things in the past that cannot be changed, and by realizing that to spend too much time thinking about such an impossible task is a foolish and crazy waste of time. So one should try not to think about it, and try not to feel anxious about the future or imagine fear and poverty that may or may not lie ahead. We should realize that the future, whether good or bad, is something unknown; it is in the hands of the Almighty, All-Wise, not in the hands of His slaves, and all they have to do is to strive for the good things and protect themselves from bad things. The slave should know that if he distracts his mind from worries about the future and puts his trust in his Lord, then Allaah will take care of it and his worry and anxiety will disappear. 11. One of the most effective ways of finding comfort and contentment is to remember Allaah frequently!” 12. Seeking refuge in prayer Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And seek help in patience and al-salaat (the prayer)…” [al-Baqarah 2:45]. Hudhayfah said: “Whenever the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was grieved by something, he used to pray.” When Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) heard about the death of his brother, he stopped at the side of the road – as he was on a journey – and prayed, following the command of Allaah. 13. Another thing that may dispel worry is jihaad for the sake of Allaah. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “You must strive in jihaad for the sake of Allaah, may He be blessed and exalted, for it is one of the gates to Paradise, and Allaah dispels worry and distress through it.” 14. Speaking about the blessings of Allaah, both those which are obvious and those which are hidden Acknowledging them and speaking about them dispels worry and distress. The slave is encouraged to have the attitude of thankfulness, which is the highest level he can reach, even if he is in a state of poverty, sickness or other kinds of misery. If he were to compare the innumerable blessings that Allaah has bestowed upon him with the bad thing that has befallen him, he will see that the distress is as nothing in comparison to the blessings. When Allaah tests His slave by means of these disasters and miseries, and the slave does his duty of being patient and accepting, then the difficulties become easy for him to bear, and he has the hope of earning reward from Allaah for submitting to Him, and being patient and content. This makes bitter things sweet; the sweetness of the reward helps him to forget the bitterness of patience. One of the most beneficial things in this regard is to follow the advice of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) given in the saheeh hadeeth reported by Abu Hurayrah: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Look at those who are below you, not at those who are above you, so that you will not think little of the blessings that Allaah has bestowed upon you.” If a person keeps this important concept (of looking only at those below him) in mind, he will definitely feel that he is better-off than many others when it comes to good health, physical strength, and provision (rizq) such as food, clothing, shelter, etc., no matter what his situation. So his anxiety and distress will disappear, and he will feel increased happiness and joy in the blessings of Allaah which have raised him above others. The more he thinks about the blessings of Allaah, both obvious and hidden, spiritual and worldly, he will see that his Lord has given him many good things, and has lifted from him many bad things. No doubt this too will dispel worries and anxieties, and bring joy and happiness. 15. Keeping oneself busy with useful work or the pursuit of beneficial knowledge This will distract a person’s mind from the matter that has been causing anxiety. Maybe then he will forget the causes of his distress, and begin to feel happier and more energetic. This is something which both believers and non-believers may try to do, but the believer is distinguished by the fact of his eemaan (faith), his sincerity and his hope for reward when he occupies himself with learning or teaching something useful or doing something beneficial. If he is keeping himself busy with worship, then this is worship, and if he is keeping himself busy with some worldly work or custom, then he tries to accompany it with the right intention, and seeks the help of Allaah to do this thing as an act of obedience or worship to Him. Thus his action will be effective in dispelling his anxiety, stress and grief. How many people are suffering from anxiety and constant feelings of depression, which result in various kinds of disease and illness. The right treatment for them was: to forget the thing that caused the depression and worry, and to keep themselves busy with some important work. It was important that the work with which they kept themselves busy was something that they liked to do and looked forward to; this was more effective in bringing about the desired good results. And Allaah knows best. 16. Looking for the positive aspects of the events in which he tends to see only things that he dislikes Abu Hurayrah said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:: ‘Why do you not ask Allaah to help us (grant us victory)? Why do you not pray to Allaah for us?’ He said, ‘A: 5. Du'aa' (supplication): We ask Allaah, may He be exalted, to keep us safe from distress, to grant us relief from depression and to alleviate our worries, for He is the All-Hearing Who answers prayers, He is the Ever-Living, Eternal.

Security App For the New German Personal ID Hacked 93)." heh (Score:1) I think it was that Shakespeare dude who said, "The best laid schemes of mice and men. Go oft awry" Or, as the philosopher Simpson said, "D'oh!" Not quite (Score:2, Informative) "The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men, gang aft agley," And for one, Shakespeare wasn't Scottish... Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) I don't think the men have got much do to with it. Re: (Score:1) I don't think the men have got much do to with it. Yes. It's obviously a mouse driver problem anyway. Re: (Score:2) I doubt it - he knew better than to split the verb and the subject into two separate sentences. What is the appropriate system, then? (Score:2, Interesting) If you have need for such an identification card and trackable number within the government database to allow you access to government services such as healthcare, what is the best identification system in that case? Re:What is the appropriate system, then? (Score:5, Informative) You probably didn't/couldn't read the article (it's in German after all, not everyone can read that). I did, hereby summary/translation of what's going on. Hoping I understand all correctly, so other posters please correct me when I'm wrong! It's got nothing to do with the ID card itself, or identification to the government with it. Basically the vulnerability is in the update function of the AusweisApp software. It starts with hijacking the DNS query for the update server, and redirect the app to a (malicious) server, which pretends to be the real deal. Then when the fake update server presents the software with a valid SSL certificate, AusweissApp accepts this without checking whether the certificate has been issued in the correct name (I hope I translate this well - anyway the SSL certificate is not checked properly, the core of the vulnerability), and will happily download a .zip file which is supposed to be the update for itself. Updates are distributed as .zip files. So this is vulnerability part 1: you can have it download the wrong file. But now it's part 2: the software will unpack the zip file before asking authorisation, and using relative path names for files in the zip archive malicious software can be placed on the user's hard disk. This of course is also an issue, it should unpack the zip in one location and disregard path names if any. So there you have it: a glaring vulnerability that allows for remote installation of software. The article notes they contacted the issuer of the software, who at first answered "we will look into this issue and if there really is a vulnerability issue an update", later they pulled the current version of the app from their download site without giving further explanation on why it's not available anymore. Re: (Score:1) Would this be a satisfactory system if this hole were plugged? The problem is whether there is any satisfactory system given the likelihood of whiny Slashbots complaining about either loss of privacy, insecure maintenance of critical information, and threat to identity security. If the default posture is "it will be hacked" to any proposal for a necessary identification system such as this, how could such a system be designed so that these objections are unwarranted? As we Americans move towards a national he Re: (Score:3, Informative) The ID cards for the health system are a completely different thing in Germany. Since it's run on the basis of insurance companies* (Krankenkassen) you get a normal chip-and-PIN card from your insurance company that you then give to the doctor or hospital staff when it comes time do sort out the paperwork. These ID cards on the other hand are only for German citizens and are issued by the federal government and have a much more general usage. Foreigners like me who live here can't get a German ID card and ev Re: (Score:2) Foreigners like me who live here can't get a German ID card and everybody will still have to have a health insurance card. I'd replace can't with are not required to. I'm happy that I don't have a German ID card; I don't like carrying around government issued cards with chips.!" I don't have a health insurance card either, since I an insured through a priv Re: (Score:1, Informative) This is wrong. [wikipedia.org] Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:1) Correct, you are required to own one, but there is no law that requires you to keep it on you at all times. Although most Germans do not know this either. Law or not, the question is: if an officer asks you for it and you don't have it, what, if any, are the consequences? The legality of the matter is often less important than how you are treated by law enforcement. In the U.S., there are laws about what a cop can and cannot demand from you in specific circumstances: but even when they don't have the right, they may still expect you to obey and give you a hard time if you don't. Depends upon where you are, in many cases: I know there are some towns that I sim Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2)!" [wikipedia.org] Funnily enough this law applies to foreigners in Germany as well, meaning you have to carry around your passport or some other identification, eg. drivers licence. Private insurance is a lo Re: (Score:2) Funnily enough this law applies to foreigners in Germany as well, meaning you have to carry around your passport or some other identification, eg. drivers licence. In 20+ years of living in Germany, only once have the police requested an ID from me. I was walking near an area with bars and nightclubs, where there is often trouble. My drivers license and my accent were enough to convince them that I was not the person they were looking for. The police in Germany are always quite polite . . . and like any Re: (Score:2) In 20+ years of living in Germany, only once have the police requested an ID from me. Same with me - in over 2 years I've never been asked for ID, doesn't change the fact that the law applies to foreigners like us as well. It's not ideological, rather empirical. My girlfriend (state insured) had an allergy problem, and had to first go to her General Praticioner (Hausartz) to get a referral to an allergy specialist, who did a set of allergy tests. Since they all came up negative, the doctor needed to do anothe Re: (Score:2) Plus with private insurance you have no choice what you can send or not - you have to send exactly what the insurance company requires of you. Be careful there! An insurance company may request information, implying that it is required, that they are not, by law, entitled to. This happened to me. I showed the written request for information to my doctor, and he was angry at the insurance company, and said, "They have no right to that information, and they know it. Just ignore the letter!" So if your i Re: (Score:2) Be careful there! An insurance company may request information, implying that it is required, that they are not, by law, entitled to. This happened to me. Ok but at a minimum they're going to be able to demand the same information as is on the Krankenkasse cards aren't they? I mean demand as in say if you dont give us the info we don't pay you. If I had a doctor visit that I don't want the insurance company to know about, I just don't submit it, and sit on the costs myself. You could do the exact same thing a Re: (Score:2) The law actually only has an Ausweispflicht (requirement to own an ID) but not a Mitführpflicht (requirement to carry ID at all times). Of course how that plays out in practice is another matter... Re: (Score:2) From other posts it seems that most people are quite positive about the card as such, that it even allows for anonymous transactions (how that matches an ID card I don't know - maybe that's explained elsewhere in this discussion; going to read myself again later on). And European countries in general are way more protective of their citizen's privacy than the US is. This security hole is a problem of the supporting software, how to get such software 100% secure I don't know. But not doing something as simpl Re: (Score:2) It is abundantly clear to anyone willing to look that it can't. Centralization doesn't scale. Creating a single point of failure for an entire nation is stupid. It won't be. It will be ignored. Re: (Score:2) Your summary seems correct. But he defeated another security measure through the zip file. Normally, only updates with a specific signature are installed. But as the updates are .msi-files packed in a zip, and the zip is unpacked without verification, one can use the zip with relative paths to install other software in the AusweisApp's context. Re: (Score:2) I'd think the best identification system would simply be based entirely on biometrics and querying a central server which matches the biometric data to an identity. So whatever security that is required is to ensure that the service is connected to the legitimate central server. Having a portable ID card does make things a lot more convenient though, not requiring a central server, but security gets a rather more complicated. 1. You need a way to determine if the bearer of the ID card is the legitimate owner Re: (Score:2) You say unforgeable is impossible but suggest it is still worth trying. The harder something is to forge, the more faith will be placed in it making it more valuable to forge it, ergo more resources will be placed on trying to forge it. Re: (Score:2) No reason why an ID card can not be mighty hard to forge - I'm thinking encrypt data on the card with some digital signature, the secret key stored in a central database, and one unique key per card. Easy to create, easy to revoke. Optionally add part of the information in unencrypted format too for those situations where security is less strict. Re: (Score:2) I'd think the best identification system would simply be based entirely on biometrics ... OK, now what if someone is able to clone your biometrics to impersonate you (see German magazine that got a fingerprint of some German Gov official and distributed it on some suitable sticky film with their mag so anyone could leave that official's fingerprints all over the place). So now what if someone can hack the central server to change your biometric info to their biometric info? They are now, to all intents and purposes, you. If someone discovers your password or pin you can change it, if someone c Well now. (Score:3, Funny) (article in German) Most of us will have an excuse not to read TFA this time. (As if lack of an excuse ever made much difference.) Re: (Score:3, Insightful) We no longer live in the days of Babelfish being the only game in town. Google Translate does a passable (but far from perfect) job: [google.com] Re: (Score:1) (article in German) Most of us will have an excuse not to read TFA this time. (As if lack of an excuse ever made much difference.) Really. Although, I've been mod-bombed a few times for failing to read the article, so it does bother some people no end if you don't read it. I can guess the word most Germans said... (Score:2, Funny) Re: (Score:2) Actually, most Germans probably don't give a damn. BTW, is it scheisse or scheiße? Re: (Score:3, Informative) Depends on if you are Swiss :-) In Germany it's Scheiße, in Switzerland it's Scheisse. Re: (Score:2) Can someone explain, bitte? (Score:2) How does it matter? Does it let you get the secret key from a card, or somehow pretend to have a different ID? I though the point of using a smartcard is that PCs cannot be trusted. Is this about a MiTM attack without physical access to the PC? Re: (Score:2, Interesting) The new ID sounds good - really! (Score:5, Interesting) First, to TFA: there is no problem with the ID itself, just with the security of the special PC software than can work with them. As most /.ers know, there is quite a hacker community in Germany, and these problems are really not too bad. In order to compromise the software you first have to do a DNS hack, then fake a certificate, then... In a nutshel, yes, there are problems, but they aren't too bad and will be relatively easy to fix. The ID itself is really cool. Among other things, it supports secured anonymous transactions. How many governments are there that willingly support anonymity for their citizens? Re:The new ID sounds good - really! (Score:4, Informative) Any valid SSL certificate will do; it's not checked. That's the main problem. Re: (Score:2) So you are saying there are lots of hackers in Germany, but there is little to worry about, since people who don't know how to hack won't be able to hack it, and only the large number of people who do Re: (Score:2) Wow! It's a damn good thing Germany isn't connected the Internet then! Re: (Score:2) How can an ID card specifically facilitate anonymous transactions? Isn't that an exact contradiction? Re: (Score:2) Blind signatures [wikipedia.org] allow anonymous transactions: [wikipedia.org] You don't know the best things about the ID, yet (Score:4, Informative) You have to know that our (German) current ID card is being photocopied for many kinds of quick transactions/deals. Someone can give you something without paying in advance and you give him a copy of your ID card, so he can find you, when you forgot to pay or give something back. You can optionally give the ID card directly as security. Now... the new ID... it is explicitly forbidden to photocopy it and even leave it unattended somewhere. Why? Because there are some critical numbers printed on the new German ID cards that no one should know. Isn't it great? Imagine that someone printed your social security number on your new "great and modern ID card"! And here comes the first loop hole: banks always have needed and still will need your ID card photocopied to open an account. Guess what happens? They will get a special permit to do this (it has been already decided to keep the current account registration system working). Re: (Score:2) I like this rule that forbids to give the card out of your hands. Hopefully it will put some common sense in some heads and I can stop shaking my head over all those idiots who willingly give their credit cards out of their hands and let people do stuff they can't see with it, but then wonder about their crazy bills. And banks don't "need" an ID card or copies of an ID card to open an account. Any method which can prove that you are the guy who opened the account would do it. Re: (Score:1) Do you ever eat at nice restaurants? Re: (Score:2) Yes. But that doesn't mean that I'd ever let anyone except closest friends take my credit card out of my sight. I'm from Germany, and the usage of credit cards is not so widespread here as in the USA. If it's not a business related dinner, or some kind of bigger event, most people here usually pay cash in restaurants. And as I know how much the CC companies charge those poor shop owners, I tend to use a credit card only when paying in cash or with the bank card (don't know if there's something similar in the Re: (Score:2) True, credit cards aren't used that often outside online/mail-order transactions and what's referred to as "EC cards" is a different kind of animal ( [wikipedia.org] ). Re: (Score:2, Informative) Do you ever eat at nice restaurants? That was ten years ago, when the waiter had to take your card backstage to get the imprimt. Nowadays, they do have those small portable readers which they bring right to your table. The card no longer leaves your sight... Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) Banks generally do need to go above and beyond 'have a photo ID' to protect your money - they store the copy of your official ID to compare against the ID you (or "you") show next time, and to compare signatures, and to have a photo of the bad guy and solid evidence that it wasn't you if a forgery was presented the first time. If you don't do this, then some shmuck with a forged ID can do stuff in your name. Oh - and that's the choice that most USA banks have made, so you suffer from id Re: (Score:1) If the banks were suffering from their lax fraud controls, they would probably do something about it. As it stands, the bank (the victim of the fraud that the bank failed to prevent) just pushes the problem off on some individual. So the laws are terrible there (it should be straightforward for someone to repudiate an account and hear nothing more from the institution that mistakenly opened said account). Re: (Score:2) The scan of your ID card also serves second purpose. In case your wallet is stolen you simply provide your name, address, date of birth and together with a visual confirmation they'll let you withdraw money at the counter until your replacement bank card is mailed to you. passport (Score:1) Just give them your passport. They will happily accept it. That's what I and most foreigners living in Germany use to authenticate, because we don't have an ID card. Re: (Score:2) Suspect they will still require an ID card if you happen to be German citizen... the passport bypass will work fine for non-nationals... Re: (Score:2) You mean like on my driver's license here in the US up until a few years ago? That's why my new driver's licenses always had an unfortunate encounter with a belt sander soon after issue. Sweden has chips on the national id cards... (Score:2) Quick Summary (Score:1, Redundant) For those who can't read German here's a basic summary of the article: There is a vulnerability not in the ID cards but in the desktop software that makes use of them for authentication on the Net. This software's update mechanism is apparently vulnerable to a DNS spoofing attack that would allow a skilled attacker to download and unpack a ZIP file on the user's machine (but not directly execute any code). The article was updated to say that the government agency responsible for this software has stopped dow Re: (Score:2) And since the ID card and desktop software know nothing about the operating system they run on there is no way to be sure they will behave as expected. Re: (Score:1) The really safe solution would have been to have a reader with PIN entry required, and have that reader directly communicate with the server (using a secure, encrypted protocol, of course), so for identification purposes, the computer acts only as a router for the secure communication. Of course that still doesn't protect against compromised readers, but I guess those are much more easy to protect than computers (after all, they are single-purpose appliances). Re: (Score:2) Yeah I think this point was brought up in the dw-world article (in English) linked to this story. It's like Internet Banking, if you use it from a computer which isn't secure or which you can't reasonably trust (eg. a computer in an internet cafe) you can't expect your session to be secure. Same with this system. I think the idea is to create a system where verified emails and documents can be securely sent, eg. if I want to cancel the contract with my phone company I use my ID+PIN reader gadget to send them Re: (Score:2) I think the attacker is a different person here. If you want your data to be secure you will use a secure system. If you want to defraud the Government then you may create a deliberately insecure system. another potential hole (Score:1) another potential hole here is the social aspect of the deployment: it is only for Germans. And you have a large percent of foreigners living there, who use the same services as Germans. And I don't people from far away countries. I mean even other europeans who happen to live in Germany in accordance to all European rules. These people use credit cards, do bank transactions, on-line shopping, etc. For these people, of which I belong to, our only means of authenticating is the passport. So in the end every s Bundestrojaner (Score:2) Now they can upload their spying tool to everybody without a warrant. All they need to do is accidentally mixup the new release of the passportapp with the trojan. Re: (Score:2, Insightful) But for that, they would not need to add that security hole. They could just install it from the regular update server of the app. Or redirect DNS, but use the original certificate. Re: (Score:1) But for that, they would not need to add that security hole. They could just install it from the regular update server of the app. Plausible deniability! Why this tool is crap anyway (Score:2) Which basically means, when ever somebody does something bad with your id, the damage is yours. They even read, that you should only keep it on the card reader for the few seconds of usage. As if those few seconds are not enough for an attack. One thing that already works easily with an exploited Re: (Score:1) The current terms of service (which you accept when you get this thing) are that the program is safe by definition. The user has to keep the pc free of viruses. Zerodays are the users fault as well, what so ever. Lemme guess... and the app is only available for windows. So basically they tell you "you have to expose your computer to attacks, but you (not we) are responsible when it does get attacked and your id stolen". Re: (Score:2) Very bad PR, but nothing extraordinary (Score:3, Interesting) This is very bad PR for the new ID, but neither the ID card nor the software has been hacked yet. This is just another way to install some malware on a computer. I have no doubt though that worse things will happen. The mistakes made here are so glaringly obvious that it's hard to believe that there aren't other holes to be found.

"Cyber War" Is Just the Latest Grab for Defense Money 161 Posted by Unknown Lamer from the monocle-polishing-terrorists-are-stealing-our-yachts dept. from the monocle-polishing-terrorists-are-stealing-our-yachts dept. New submitter.'" Is this a US thing? (Score:4, Interesting) Cause I've not heard the phrase "cyber war" being bandied about like the wars on terror/drugs/etc have been. Everything in the USA is a "war". (Score:5, Insightful) Americans are a very curious species. There are two things you should know about them: 1) Most Americans have never experienced real war of any sort. This includes those in the military, even those who have served in various conflicts, and even those who have killed during said conflicts. (Much of this killing has been done at great distances using missiles or munitions released by planes or drones, and was thus quite impersonal.) 2) Most Americans have a so-called "boner for war". This is especially true of those who self-identify as "Republicans", but many who identify as "Democrats" are equally afflicted. Unfortunately, there are a lot of these people, and they have thus acquired much power within the American political system. To them, anything and everything they don't like needs to be crushed in a "war". It doesn't matter whether their target is alcohol or drugs or Islam or homosexuality or affordable health care or free speech on the Internet. To them, "war" is the only solution possible, and they'll refer to "war" incessantly when discussing such topics. Re: (Score:2, Funny) Re: (Score:2) Sounds like you want to start a war on wars. Re: (Score:2) Now they want a war on drugs. A war on DRUGS! They ought to start a war on war! --Mojo Nixon, Burn Down The Mall Re:Everything in the USA is a "war". (Score:4, Insightful) Re: (Score:3) Mod parent funny! "Liberal pinko!" Of course, Gingrich probably would call someone like him a liberal. He and Perry and Paul would probably be against the interstate highway, too. Wonderful sarcasm. We have a war on poverty too (Score:2) Only we can't figure out a good excuse to shoot, bomb or jail poor people. Re: (Score:2) What do you think the "War on Drugs" is for? Re:Is this a US thing? (Score:4, Interesting) They're doing it in the UK too : Web War II: What a future cyberwar will look like [bbc.co.uk] ; and on the BBC. I wonder if it's just a few select plants in their newsroom, whether they are just being fed this stuff unwittingly, or whether their legendary neutrality is being eroded at an institutional level. Re: (Score:2) Yes, it's mostly a US thing (Score:2) It's really about getting new funding for the US Military establishment and their friends in private-sector contracting businesses. It lets companies who don't make heavy iron or high-tech weaponry sell consulting and overpriced computer system designs, and lets military departments who don't have overpriced cool airplanes (or can't get their next generation of cool airplanes) get more money to hire people and buy shiny equipment from politically well-connected vendors. That doesn't mean there aren't civil Hobgoblins! (Score:3, Funny) has anyone considered this latest Hobgoblin threat to the United States' civil security? We need to begin deploying elven rangers at our borders. It's the only way to be sure. I propose an Elven Archer High Command, taking pieces from DoHS, DOD, NSA, FBI, and other agencies which are clearly not as focused on the Hobgoblin threat as they need to be. We cannot allow American lives to be thrown away by caving into the Hobgoblin agenda. Re: (Score:2) Re:Hobgoblins! (Score:5, Funny) No. No no. No no no. We must begin deploying DWARF (Designated Warfare Advance Recon Forces) to defend against the hobgoblin menace. The best part is that all we need to send seven of them out with just a pickaxe and an axe and they are quite adept at constructing fortresses to defend against the hobgoblin menace. With a little bit of oversight we can make sure to avoid the lava cataclysm events that DWARF is prone to causing. Re: (Score:2) A pickaxe and an axe? Just a piece of bismuthinite, a piece of cassiterite, a couple of pieces of tetrahedrite, a random rock. They can rip apart their wagon and build an axe from the wood in it. Re: (Score:3) Well, people used to bad-mouth the Bear Patrol back when it started too. But I submit to you that we haven't had a single person killed in a U.S. city by a bear since it began. You can't argue with success. Seriously? (Score:4, Interesting) While I do agree that it is in the military's best interests to keep things rolling financially, make no mistake in the fact that cyber criminals and foreign nations are actively penetrating and stealing sensitive information from the United States as well as other countries. Re: (Score:3) Of course that's true. But the cost of making defense networks secure is trivial compared to the cost of developing a new weapon system or surveiling the world. Re: (Score:2) Foreign nations are actively penetrating and stealing sensitive information from the United States That fact that the sensitive info is on a public network, or networks connected to the internet, is reason enough to believe there is incompetence involved. Incompetence is the largest factor in a compromised network. If you don't want your fruit picked, don't leave it so close to the ground. Re: (Score:3) It doesn't work that way. Outside of the DoD, just about everything is connected to the Internet these days; workers expect to have access to the Internet for research while they work, or so that they can take breaks during the day and read their personal email. The fact that you can't make an inbound connection to those computers (because of firewalls, Re: (Score:2) Yes, they are. And leaving aside the fact that most of the world does care about this type of crime (but does not particularly care about the US, which still falsely thinks of it as the pinnacle of human existence), this is just a very conventional IT security problem. There are far too many organizations out there that will fall even to a moderately competent individual doing a targeted attack. Calling crime "war" either just exceedingly stupid, or exactly what the original story said. That said, one thing Re: (Score:2) In the USA we always hear the main aggressor is China. Re: (Score:2) For this aspect of things, that would be an accurate statement. They're responsible for a lot of state sponsored attacks on our digital infrastructure. It is (Score:3) continu Re: (Score:2) Thank you for saving some time. I'm bookmarking this thread. Re: (Score:2) In the USA we always hear the main aggressor is China. It clearly is not. The Chinese can be happy if they match higher-competence individual hackers. But there are a lot of economic and political reasons to paint the Chinese as a threat. Because, in fact, they are to the US. Not so much to Europe, though. All of the above (Score:3) Can you imagine a world where it's possible for there to actually be ideals that are opposed to principles of freedom and democracy, and where the US isn't to blame for everything bad that happens? I know this would be a stretch from your comfortable worldview which probably holds that the only reason the US and/or West has any "enemies" is because we make them ourselves. I'm sure if the US didn't exist after WWII, Western European nations would all be in a happy place and the world would be a peaceful utop Re: (Score:2) Well, I do agree there are actual threats out there, sure. Yes, China potentially is a threat, as is Iran and N. Korea. Of those 3, I'd say China is potentially the largest threat just based on economic power and supply controls. However, it is also very accurate to state that most of (the USA's) our "enemies" are primarily a result of foreign interventions. I use "enemies" loosely here, because we're not engaged in a traditional "war" with anyone (as defined by clear objectives competing against other Na Yawn. (Score:5, Insightful) You are preaching to the choir, sir. Is the Information Superhighway in danger? (Score:1) Maybe you're not worried about the safety of the Information Superhighway, but I sure am. When I go surfing in cyberspace, I want to know that I'm protected. The World Wide Web can be a dangerous place, but if you take some precautions it'll be safe sailing all the way. Re: (Score:2, Funny) You just to create some synergy by leveraging the Best Practices of both Open Source and Proprietary Technologies. And wear a condom. How about we taxpayers... (Score:3, Insightful) ...tell the government where to spend our taxes. Me regarding the taxes I pay, your regarding the taxes you pay. Extrapolate that out to realize what all else gets fixed. If you don't trust the people, then you probably support rigged elections. Does a politician who does not follow through with their campaign promises that people voted for them for, represent the people? No Taxation without representation. I'd rather realize results as being representative rather than some a person claiming to represent me. The value of defense is more often to protect yourself from those you suspect of retaliation of the wrongs you've done against them. go figure what the cyper war crap is really about. Re:How about we taxpayers... (Score:5, Insightful) ...tell the government where to spend our taxes. Me regarding the taxes I pay, your regarding the taxes you pay. Only problem is what to do about things that nobody wants to think about paying for despite the fact that they have to be funded. Often these are things that don't require a lot of money (can you think of anyone who wants to fund the retirement plans of federal auditors?) but without them all sorts of things just fall apart over time. Re: (Score:2) Are you high? What smart ass remark? He made a valid point. One you don't want to hear, so you are getting all pissy because if goes against your gut \feeling of how things should be. " its not all or nothing as he clearly insinuates" he did no such thing. You are creating a strawman, the second to last vestige of an argument without merit. "Try asking people randomly off the street if they would like to tell government where to spend their money if you want a real answer." and most would say yes, and they woul Re: (Score:3) The only reason we don't have direct democracy is because it's never been tried because it's never been possible in the history of the world until now. The thundering herd would wise up after a few misteps at first. I'd way rather try direct democracy over the illusionist representative democracy we have now. Re: (Score:2) As a reminder, a lot of things were said about Free Open Source Software, that this or that would happen, that it needed this other or that other and of course "it'll never work" and plenty more. But against all these speculations... it works. And it provides a working model of how participatory democracy can work within this Republic of the United States. Also there is local, state and federal government where taxes are levied and collected, so things can be sorted out on the local levels in getting this Re: (Score:2) Yes, open software can work. This is not open software, it's a form of government. Have you ever even been in a large open source project? All of them have a person who makes the decisions, regardless of popular support. Now, with software you can spin off you own fork. I can't decide to go build roads because I don't like how it's being done. Re: (Score:2) google "crowd source iceland" Re: (Score:2) False, it's been tried many times. Lasts about 2 years then someone has to make rules regardless of popular support. You are mistaking not seeing one right now with never been tried. You don't see one, because anything too large and it fails. Too large being more then 100. Hell, get a group of 20 people together who want the same goal, and it gets hard to manage the how. Re: (Score:2) [Citation Needed] Have you seen the Internet lately? (Score:3) Have you seen the crap people vote for as cool? Do you really want the latest hot YouTube video, cheezburger meme or Twitter trend be the example for our nation's policy? Over and over, "man on the street" interviews show a huge number of people have no real idea what's going on, yet they'll be able to vote to directly to influence policy concerning it. If we really want to kill ourselves, we can make voting mandatory, so the huge number of people who are uninformed or just plain old don't give a damn push Re: (Score:3) Your second paragraph is the most compelling for me, though. I grew up in northern Michigan, and the last thing the planet needs is for those ignorant, inbred rednecks to actually get off the couch and vote. (Yes, I'm including some relatives, though fortunately not many.) Re:How about we taxpayers... (Score:5, Insightful) That means that you should be calling your Congress person. Are you? The elected representative is the guy/gal who determines how the money is spent. Re: (Score:2) We can instruct government at the time of filing tax returns and the tax return processors can then allocate it. We can remove congresses budgeting problem of, by us doing it instead. This really is a very simple solution but some just don't know how to realistically extrapolate it all out to realize all the benefits and corrections. These are the one who might also think the way to do math is to memorize the times table and all other answers rather than understand the mathematical tool set from which extrap Re: (Score:2) Playing "can't see the forest for the trees" ? Every goal starts out with a general idea that gets broken down into doable easy to do parts. The complexity we have today didn't just appear and complexity reduction is certainly a worthwhile goal. Complexity increase also increases error and abuses and can and has been done with intention of profiting off errors and ability to hide cheating in the complexity.. As I said else where, this core change can and should start out with local government, then state and ev Re: (Score:3) Re: (Score:2) No Taxation without Representation.... look it up. Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) haha. Another person who flips out some phrase they actually no nothing about. Taxation with representation was a cute phrase whipped out by a group of men becasue ENgland was going to sell a large portion of the US to france. Thos emen had a vested interest in the land. A) Colonist were barely taxed. Most didn't pay any taxes at all. B) It was used to whip the ignorant masses into a frenzy. Finally, that vast majority of people don't know what the fuck they are talking about. Listening to them is stupid. Instea Re: (Score:2) Citation needed. ;-) Re: (Score:2) Boston Tea Party Re: (Score:2) Say what? We elect politicians because we WANT them to represent us. THAT is their DUTY. Yes, we want them to do a better job than their predecessor. And, we want them to vote their conscience - provided that it is truly best for the people they are supposed to represent. Problem is, for far too many, it becomes about money and power. They abuse the system and people they represent. They spend more time trying to get reflected and not enough time solving our real problems. They become corrupt. Others try Re: (Score:2) The Declaration of Independence has instructions for the people, written by the experienced and wise founders of this country (Republic of the United States of America). They foresaw the probability of corrupt government and recognized the Peoples right and duty to put off such government and replace it with whet a system that adheres to the intents of the founders in protecting the interest of the people. This thread.is really rather exposing of the corruption that has become of slashdot posters. I wonder h Re: (Score:3) Politician don't represent the people and they shouldn't So tell me again why many of them have the job title of "Representative"? They're job is to give the people what they want - that's not "pandering" or "appeasement", that's democratic representation serving their constituents. They may have to balance several demands at once, and argue over how to make their demands a reality, but they are definitely supposed to be focused on doing what the voters want them to do. Re: (Score:2) You pointed to a source of our problems (Score:2) You are correct, representatives are supposed to represent their constituents. However, to counter the fickle population, we had another house with officials selected by the states. This was supposed to be the body that, not depending on popular support, could take a more level-headed view of things. It was a great balance that the 17th Amendment killed by allowing direct election of senators. Re: (Score:2) How about I when I tell the government that I'd like 100% of my taxes to be spent on a tax credit for me? Of course, I still expect everybody else around me to pay for roads and other government services I use every day, but that's not my problem, right? The basic problem of government is that everybody wants services, but nobody wants to pay for them. You can see that in California's state government, where Prop 13 prevents the government from raising taxes for any reason, but other ballot issues require th Re: (Score:3) People, if given the chance, seem to vote for insolvent government. It is better to have poor government and rich citizens than vice versa. Poor government is a self-solving problem. No money? They have whole blocks of cities that are full of bureaucrats. Get rid of them. If the entire government of California disappears overnight nobody will even notice. People don't need the government to live; it's an add-on layer that provides fewer and fewer services every year for more and more money. Now they are Re: (Score:2) There's obviously a need to strike a balance to achieve high levels of growth. Too high or too low causes problems. These are based off of the size of government by %GDP: Governments too poor to be effective: Afghanistan (9%), Turkmenistan (9%), Bangladesh (12%), Cambodia (13%) Private sectors too poor to be dynamic: Iraq (87%), Cuba (81%), Slovakia (66%), Timor (65%) G8 and permanent members of the UN Security Council: France (61%), Italy (55%), UK (50%), Germany (48%), Canada (48%), Japan (30%), China (22%), Re: (Score:2) As far as your example of losing your family home, you benefit from local and state services, so you should contribute in some way to the upkeep of your government. It is lost on me how the square footage of my house, or the number of electrical lights, determine how much I should pay in property taxes. There is only one street, and only one driveway, and only one resident. I'd understand if property taxes were related to number of people who live there. But they are not. Well, making the people who are Re: (Score:2) If you do not work you do not eat. If people with more expensive property are expected to sell their homes then perhaps people with less expensive property should sell some of their organs? So am I correct in boiling your argument down to the idea that my right to keep my property is more important than somebody else's right to remain alive? That seems more than a bit callous. If the government is Shylock (who is actually a pretty sympathetic character, upset because Antonio's pal stole his daughter and all his cash), you seem to be Ebenezer Scrooge ("Are there no workhouses?"). Losing one's home sucks. A lot. But it's a very different level of suffering from starving or living on the streets. Re: (Score:2) Because people are selfish and have no clue how to plan for decades? because most people can't even manage their own money? Because nothing would get done. I don't support rigged elections because they usually deal with issues on a larger scale. A voter may not like the economy, but they should be telling expert what we should specifically do. And how so you determine what amount? is the person paying the higher percentage get a higher say? is it real dollars? "Does a politician who does not follow through with Arguably even worse than that... (Score:5, Interesting) This is not a merely theoretical problem [forbes.com]. VUPEN [vupen.com] is the crass, attention-whoring, bad-boy of the industry; but practically the entire who's-who of staid, tight-lipped, defense contractors has a division peddling bugs somewhere in the business. Even if we were 100% warm and fuzzy about the use these exploits are being put to by these firms customers(Only the good guys, pinkie swear!), this situation is insane from the perspective of actual 'security'. Whose economies, financial systems, and infrastructure depend most heavily on complex IT systems? Ummm, mostly wealthy developed countries. Whose citizens are most vulnerable to electronic compromise of financial information and such? Countries with high rates of internet penetration and lots of computers. Who has the capability to deploy electronic attacks against unpatched vulnerabilities? Virtually everyone. In addition to the usual grab for rights and money, this 'cybersecurity' industry begets insecurity, because of the demand for 'offensive capabilities', despite the fact that we are the ones with the most to lose in an insecure environment. At least classic corporate welfare military R&D is merely expensive, and once you hand over the money, Raytheon or whoever goes off to build some impractical toy that is largely useless; but at least largely harmless.... Re: (Score:2) And they are overlooking a number of problems. One is that you can turn any type of malware around and use it against the attacker, unless the attacker is more secure than the attacked. Guess what, the whole world gets the same security patches. Until that changes, any offensive capability is highly problematic. Then there is the issue of how specific such a weapon is. The more specific, the easier any defense. The less specific, the larger the risk of unacceptable collateral damage. Those that want an offen Move along citizen (Score:4, Insightful) Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) Arrr, yes! Eastasia and their terror-muslin-children-eating terrorists. Let's bomb them all! We cannot allow (Score:3) We cannot allow a cyber-war gap. Corporatocracy (Score:3) The truth is there *is* a cyber war issue, just as there is a terror issue and yes, even a drug issue that needs to be addressed (meth). What get's confused is the border between appropriate action and sponsored action. What's appropriate today is spend billions on contractors hoping the problem will go away, and less smart allocation. Bloat's always been a part of government, but today we're seeing an extremely stark privatization of public money, and externalization of corporate cost in public debt... Re: (Score:2) The truth is there *is* a cyber war issue, You have data to support that hypothesis? just as there is a terror issue In the US? I've seen no indication of such for over ten years. and yes, even a drug issue that needs to be addressed (meth). Yes, they should just legalize the shit so I can get cold medicine without looking like a criminal. If an adult wants to thoroughly fuck his life up with meth, why should I or my government stop him? I know quite a few hopeless alcoholics, and you know how that prohibition People do not want to hear that (Score:5, Interesting) I recently gave a talk on Cyberwar, with the main conclusion that there is nothing new here or nothing more scary than the targeted attacks we have increasingly seen in the last few years. Defense against "Cyberwar" is the same as against any other targeted IT attack. Even Stuxnet is not impressive at all and the authors made several unnecessary mistakes that jeopardized its mission. (And in addition, it is in no way certain that the damage to the Iranian centrifuges was even caused by Stuxnet. The Iranis had started using their own parts in the centrifuges and "the devil USA did it" may just be politically more opportune than "we do not have the skills to make our own centrifuges" or "we are incompetent to operate centrifuges reliably".) But guess what? Some people in the audience were offended! Seems to me some people are so in love with their own misconceptions, that they rather be afraid than admit that they were wrong (and that they are not experts on the subject in the first place...). As long as this stupidity continues, the immoral manipulators using these memes will continue to be successful. Re: (Score:2) As someone who has watched, monitored, and designed specialized security systems for SCADA, and Financial institutions, you are wrong. There are global coordinated attacks against many SCADA system, financial system. Other government agencies as well, but those are often much less professional. "Cyberwar" is defense against large scale coordinated attacks. So, yes the technical merits are 'the same' but in practicability, it is not. We now over large groups buying systems, then using them to test attacks agai Re: (Score:2) I am pretty sure I am right. I _know_ I am not ignorant. But as you chose to insult me, I am too lazy to find my sources again. The hints that Stuxnet is not great are very, very obvious. The only thing that allowed the attack is gross incompetence on the Irani side. Just one hint: I guess they never heard of independent monitoring systems for mission critical hardware. There is quite a bit more. Requires some searching though, and some engineering knowledge. As for coordinated attacks, you _can_ use cyberatt Re: (Score:2) Maybe it's not the "R" that makes them intransigent, but the "diehard" as you say. Re: (Score:2) I's an "R" all right, and that R is Religion. Believing that there is an infallible entity that controls the universe in all minutiae, and has laid down simple black and white laws to be followed, has a tendency to cause people to believe that, since they are on the side of unquestionable truth and goodness, any thought that passes through their mind obviously must have been placed there by the divine creator, and therefore who opposes it has certainly either made a mistake, or been led astray by the forces Re: (Score:2) You should ditch the "Republican"/"Democrat" line of thought. Flip sides of the coin, really. As for a "diehard 'R'" holding onto their mainstream-sensationalized beliefs, I think you'll find the other party's participants are quite more guilty of that than the 'R''s... Re: (Score:2) Historically(last 40 years) you would be wrong. OTOH, I actually read up on the facts in these issue and not just crap out whatever my gut tells me. You should try it. I will warn you, slaughter sacred cows requires a certain level of opening yourself up. Re: (Score:2) Not all experts on IT-security (the "cyber" is still the mark of incompetence) have the will to resist the call of big money. You mean the History Channel lied? (Score:3) The whole WWII think was made up? Damn! I knew Granddad told some whoppers, but I swallowed that one hook, line, and sinker. Pearl Harbor, Bataan (my great-uncle must have faked his death), Nazi's, and Holocaust were all imaginary. Go figure. Next you're going to tell me the Great Depression was fake too. You are mistaken (Score:2) This [slashdot.org] is the latest grab for defence money. Cyberwarfare is getting old enough that some people will start to believe in it for the sole reason that they heard it so many times. Re: (Score:2) I think you are exactly right. And "what I tell you three times is the truth" may exactly have been the strategy all along. Too bad it works nonetheless. so just pay for it (Score:2) The big difference that makes this silly is how cheap it is to fix these problems. We've got technical solutions for all security issues, but nobody uses them. Fire the programmers who get caught writing buffer overflow vulnerabilities. This is like firing building contractors who use substandard nails. After the roof blows off it's too late. Don't let your inspectors get away with being bribed. Don't tolerate substandard work. All these problems have been solved, we just have to fire the idiots who don't u Re: (Score:2) Before doing that, we should make it a requirement to get a professional Engineering certificate and sign off on projects. That means people will have to sign off on projects, so if management pushes something, and the engineer doesn't sign off and t ships? it's the managers ass. The engineering culture needs to be embraced, and the classic geek cowboy culture needs to be let go. With out this, you will be next to impossible to even find the specific coder responsible for a bug, and it will be impossible Big problems with that (Score:2) 1 it is likely that any certification legislation will be bought and paid for by Microsoft (or simlar companies) and will also legislate that that MS Visual Studio 2014* Enterprise will be required to be used and forbid the use of FLOSS tools. 2 this will make it impossible to use FLOSS tools on any business computer (can't have "uncertified" software running on a Business System) 3 it will not solve the problem since the Managers will force the Designated Engineer to "sign off" on whatever is needed when The Cheaper than welfare (Score:2) If it gives all the WoW kiddies a job, I'm all for it. Re: (Score:2) The largest demographics of WoW players is women ion their 40s. The more you know. Also, welfare isn't as expensive as you think. Re: (Score:2) You got a source for that demographic data? That doesn't match with sources I've seen (like the often referenced Daedalus Project). Welfare is INCREDIBLY expensive when you consider the impact it has on society and the creation of a class of of people raised on a culture of entitlement. Government assistance should be either a short-term bridge or part of a long-term solution for the disabled. You are not entitled to a standard of living paid for by other people, and there should be NO type of work you wi From one end of the spectrum of hype to the other (Score:2) Dumb summary (Score:2) First of all this doesn't belong in a summary since it's purely opinion. But second, it's a silly opinion. People don't wake up in the morning and think, "I'm going to menace the population with hobgoblins!" What people do think is things like, "we need to write a good ad for this anti-virus s Re: (Score:2) Keep telling yourself that. What Mencken stated is an _observation_ and right on the mark. And while governments do not "wake up in the morning" to think about this, they have think-tanks, committees, meetings, experts, etc. concerned with this, as it is an on-going effort. It happens to also be one of the strategies used by quite a few of the proponents of religion. Hellfire, damnation, eternal pain, etc. same thing, just with a more long-term agenda. An no. The threats are not more real than other things a Re: (Score:2) Summary (Score:2) Imaginary? Seriously? I guess there are two extreme wings for every opinion. You could probably argue reasonably well that the threats are "overblown" or "exaggerated". You'd have a hard time arguing that it's not important to secure our computer infrastructure. And you'd have an even worse time arguing that co except that (Score:4, Insightful) 1) million of attempts are made every month on US Government, and industrial systems. 2)And we have had system compromised by foreign attempts frequently. 3) It';s the military's role to protect against those threats None of that is speculation, none of the is fear mongering. Those are are facts. So, not it isn't the same as anarchist, of the red scare. And the war on drugs is a completely separate issue, stop bringing it up. Now, we can discuss where the line is, and discuss people using those facts to do things we don't want them to do, but don't pretend like they are made up threats. Re: (Score:2) Crime is a fact. These attacks are crime, just in a new area, but not even more intensive than other forms of crime. Repeating nonsense does not make it more true. Eisenhower (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) This is news? (Score:3) Bernard Shaw wrote "Of government, ‘that foolish gaggle shop’, he says:" Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) Google "Sakka and Aang"

:1 – 200 of 741 Newer› Newest» Looking forward to lighting up Sabathia tonight! Lets make it 2/3 instead of 2 2/3! Oh, and... Fuck the Yankees! Iam personally glad we don't see the Sox again until August....as a Yankees fan, I don't know why we can't beat them, but I hope that by the time Aug rolls around, A.J. learns how to pitch under pressure, and Wang is long gone. Nevertheless....we'll see what happens tonight.... man i have a good feeling about tonight!!!! but seriously. imagine the sox with teixera. OUCH! That's certainly something the Yankees have going for them, B.R. - a long vacation from the Red Sox. There are a lot of games between now and then. They'll walk in cocky say oh we're a new team now, we're a well-oiled machine and we're clicking on all cylinders. But then Josh Beckett or Jon Lester will be standing out on the mound. Strike one. One-two-three first inning. 30 pitches from A.J. Burnett in the bottom of the 1st, and the Yankees will be thinking, "Here we go again." What would the Yankee fans rather see after 60 games? Assuming the Red Sox beat them again tonight. Being 0-8 against Boston, 2 GB in the East? Or being 2-3 against Boston, 6.5 GB in the East? Your second choice was reality after 60 games in 2008. Say we're able to sweep the Yankees (not likely given the pitching matchup tonight). If I were a Yankee fan like B.R., I would try not to read too much into it. The Yanks have had a lot of good things going on in a lot of different categories (I just read Heyman saying the whole starting infield lineup has only 8 errors). Two games out of first place, with the kind of hitting and defense they've been doing? Jeter and Damon doing well when they could have fallen off so badly? Not a bad situation. It's fun as a Sox fan to be beating the Yankees regularly this season, but there's no psychological factor going on on the field that's making it so. We just have happened to be able to win 'em all. The NY tabloids have been fun, though. Zen, you are so sensible. If the Yankees had been beating us rather than the other way around, I'd hate it, but I wouldn't read much into it, either. However, I sure as hell wouldn't hang around a Yankees blog subjecting myself to schadenfreude! "Your second choice was reality after 60 games in 2008." :>) Damn that was fun! Thanks, Laura. Come to think of it, Ish made the point a lot better than I did. (I just read Heyman saying the whole starting infield lineup has only 8 errors) You can't make an error on a ball you can't get to. (Note: No idea how NY is doing according to better fielding metrics.) (not likely given the pitching matchup tonight). That's bullshit, man! It's fuckin' CC. His ability to spit the bit against us is Garzian. Zen, you are so sensible. If the Yankees had been beating us rather than the other way around, I'd hate it, but I wouldn't read much into it, either. That five game sweep in 2006 was soul crushing. The standings in June don't mean as much as the standings in August, but.... I'm trying not to gloat, here, man! If it was September I'd probably be rubbing the front of my jeans while reading the Schadenfreude posts. Fuck the Yankees! Pedroia, 2B Drew, RF Youkilis, 1B Bay, LF Lowell, 3B Ortiz, DH Varitek, C Baldelli, CF Green, SS Jeter, SS Damon, LF Teixeira, 1B Rodriguez, 3B Cano, 2B Swisher, RF Matsui, DH Cabrera, CF Cervelli, C That five game sweep in 2006 was soul crushing. The standings in June don't mean as much as the standings in August, but.... When you begin at 2 games out and end up at 6.5, that's what's crushing. It sucked that it was the Yankees that did it, but that was just the icing on the cake. Also, that was five games in four days. This year, Yanks started slow (what's new), lost two to us. Started doing better, lost three to us. Now kicking ass, lost two more to us. Now let's make it one more, CC or no! So if Penny has a good outing tonight... will he be on the trade block tomorrow? Both Smoltz and Bucholz are knockin at the door. At least when the Red Sox are winning it makes the dreary weather tolerable. I don't think we've seen the sun in Beantown all week. FUCK - looks like YES Evening all... L is getting sox radio on her laptop. evening, lord. john flaherty looks like a fucking idiot. Smoltz's start postponed, will he make one tomorrow? Don't know, but this is possibly the last game that Penny starts for the Sox this year, let us hope it is a good start that amps his trade value to the stratosphere. MFY's need to go down. 1) dinner check 2) It is Rum and Cokes tonight as this teetotaler goes for three in a row!!! Frag the Yankees Morning Lord - sit back and enjoy!!! Hey look it's Lord and Mouse again... Again,on for one innings or so tonight. At least all the other MFY series this season are at weekends. Hi everyone. Wmtc4 minus 1 and counting. Trees are trimmed, house is cleaned. Red Sox are kicking Yankee butt. And an upcoming L-day. So much for the no hitter... About fragging time a MFY got hit this year. hbp - yay I know it is stating the bleeding obvious, but the first four in this line-up are truly hateful specimens. Carry on. Umps conferring. Oooooooooh warnings. Shakin' in me boots! 'Bout time the Sox hit a Yankee after all the plunking they've done against us this year! weren't the hbp numbers just the opposite back in 2004? all the sox were getting hit? A dot on the cards. Pity JTC doesn't bat... Maybe Penny is trying to endear himself to his teammates before he goes on the auction block? "And an upcoming L-day." Thank you! Don: "Bluff to third, bluff to first. Doesn't throw to either venue." Drink! I'd complain Penny isn't wasting a pitch, but it isn't his fault Cano's swinging at pitches at his eyebrows. Since 2004 to Tonight - Red Sox batters hit 54 Times, MFY's - 61 thanks penny 25 pitches. 11 pitches....and then you waste my time. Sit Crusoe. Whew 25 pitch first inning and 17 minutes to get 3 out... typical Sox Yankees game. I'll need to shave before this game ends. FY - crap, I truped myself there on that, I thought for sure it would at least scrape the wall. Damn... Castiglione pulled a Trupiano on us--There's a drive high and deep to left!!!... Damon has the room and hauls it in for the out. ON FIRE! dj werd Drewble! Fire! yoooooooook I forgot about "drewble". Fusionmouse knows more JOSisms than me. Somebody give CC a donut any news on cc's ultrasound? Puppies were spotted night all. Time to refill the glasss Meh, disappointing inning. Night Lord... sleep well across the pond; the game will probably still be on when you wake up. 1/2 hour per inning at this rate! CC's ultrasound? They found a dong. K or popup please. probably shouldn't rag on cc -- i hear penny is due right around jos1 Bleh. Okay, that was neither a K nor a pop-up. Double play? Triple play? K? Pop-up? Lineout? Any of these would be great right about now. Ok, Penny is not making me very happy rihgt now Sit. Sin Milk dud, oh, yeah, start arguing you toad. That K was huge. Now just get a DP to escape this. Copper-K; still, I'll go out on a limb and say we're gonna see "Moose" tonight. Not enamoured of the call! (DRINK!) the dud abides -- K! DP!! HAHA Eck, on Penny's size: The ball looks so small in his hand. BAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Don: Swisher falls asleep at the switch! DP BABY!!! Oh yeah, Swishaliciuos you are now my favorite yankee!!! mog -- swisher is such an idiot. penny yelling "second base second base" Swisher demonstrating awesome baseball skills all over this series... I may have to send him flowers! NICE Another good Swisher move. PAPI!!!!! PAPI! Papi!!! Yeah Baby!!! Curtain call time! Methinks we are starting to see the REAL Papi! LARGE FATHER DONG!!!!!!!!!! fuck you fatty PAPI induces labor on CC and steals the baby! PAPI!!!!! TAKE THAT CC YOU'VE BEEN LARGE FATHERED!!!! Puppies, ish, they are puppies. Once again we take an early lead. Love it. Ish, great call :) Did you see Francona grinning in the dugout? Nice. That dong looked like the 2004 ALDS winner off of... Washburn was it? But we love puppies! Was the Ortiz homer first pitch? I'm on GameChannel... yes, first pitch but we love puppies That is why they must be stolen from a MFY. Heidi looks dressed for winter. WHEN WILL SUMMER COME? Any of you with Time Warner Cable would know that satellite hates puppies. cc distracted by the dunkin' ad behind the plate? Ah, now I get it. Papi has arrived at the Mendoza line... please continue upward!! CC and Penny together use a lot of uniform material. Not for sure when summer will come but will be hoping that we get good weather for lake fun the next two weeks. True, Penny is also a large man. You going up to---is it called the cottages or something? I remember you went there one summer. Somewhere north of Toronto? We have a houseguest here, but she's been awake since 3 a.m. and has gone up to bed. I'm glad b/c she's not a big fan and was distracting me. Oops, wrong person. What lake, S1C? Cottages north of Toronto is a Cdn thing. You probably heard Tim talking about it. I think s1c stays in Mass. No? Don't let her read the game thread, Laura! Yeah, I somehow read the comment as coming from Redsock, not S1C. Read too fast. Lake Bungee - in Woodstock Valley CT. Late start this year in opening it up (both families having major job changes), so this weekend its put out the docks, clean out the cobwebs and assorted other things. Then next week we start the fathers day bbq's, the end of school bbq's and then the graduation celebration blow outs. "Don't let her read the game thread, Laura!" I know, I thought of that! Hm, any chance she'll find this?? :) "Yeah, I somehow read the comment as coming from Redsock, not S1C. Read too fast." I wish we were off to a cottage, why not. But I think that will never be part of our future. I'll always want to use the money for travel. I don't look forward to Penny taking swings. Hopefully he will be traded before that. s1c, I am still hoping you change your mind on JoS. Not just me, we're all hoping. Sit I don't look forward to Penny taking swings. Hopefully he will be traded before that. We'll catch up with him in Philadelphia. Do you think pitchers wake themselves up making pitches in their sleep? K! Love watching Damon K. S1C, sounds good. Is it a place you get to each weekend? We leave for the Cape tomorrow and will be living in our cottage until mid-August while our new place is under construction. I can't wait! Two cats, a dog, two adults, two computers, a printer, scanner, and other stuff---all in 500 square feet. "I don't look forward to Penny taking swings. Hopefully he will be traded before that." Would he be so much worse than any of other pitchers? I second Laura's comment about JOS1, S1C! L-girl its a matter of 2 furlough days taking a bite out of the pay check plus having to come up with additional money to get the Mom mobile back on the road, plus going from a short commute to a large commute, in other words the financial picture went from safe to fragging kidding me in a matter of days. Evening, all. Watching the game here on a tiny streaming window- but still, watching! SIT! Even better than a Damon K is an ARod K. Best three-inning 65-pitch performance. Sit! Where in the world are you, Ofer? (Sort of like Carmen Sandiego) Would he be so much worse than any of other pitchers? Shades of Colon. That sounds tough, S1C. I am sorry to hear that. This economy is awful. Every day we hear about someone else who has either lost a job or suffered some way financially. s1c, I do understand. I don't mean to pressure you. I just wonder if in the long run you would notice the difference in $$, but you and B'fly would have so much fun that it would be worth it. But hey, I'm the Queen of Rationalization. There's nothing I can't rationalize when I want to. San Francisco, now. Here for a couple more days, then NY for a week, then back to Israel. "Would he be so much worse than any of other pitchers?" There's no possible way he'd be worse than Colon last year. "Where in the world are you, Ofer? (Sort of like Carmen Sandiego)" I thought of that. Or Find Waldo. I live by that financial advice, Laura. Not the best savings plan, but a lot more fun. Allan just said: there's no telling when JOS2 will be. It's true. Amy - the lake house is part of BH's family and gets used by everybody (10 MFY fans, 10 Sox fans) and this year do to major job changes in 3 of the 5 families is basically where everyone will be escaping from the rat races (good thing we all like each other). Plus this year the Virginia family is coming after the 4th and not leaving until mid august so, now is the time to really enjoy only the 7 of us who do most of the work around there. Yeah, Waldo came to mind also, though I don't see Ofer dressing like Waldo. This is my first time actually hearing Eck. How many FYs would it take to fill a CC? Wow, 10 Sox fans and 10 Yankee fans. I hope you are all as civilized as Harvey and I are while watching games. That is, no talking, no cheering, just watching. :) 4.8 "San Francisco, now. Here for a couple more days, then NY for a week," My two favourite places in the US. Enjoy. If you need or want tips on fun cheap NYC things to do, email me. Why isn't Allan in thread? Good places to be, Ofer, all of them. Yeah, Waldo came to mind also, though I don't see Ofer dressing like Waldo. Hey, at least the red and white would be supporting my team... First time hearing Eck---lucky you. Just don't go back to Israel speaking English like he does. I suppose he was before, but my attention span's short tonight. i'm here! I hope you are all as civilized as Harvey and I are while watching games. That is, no talking, no cheering, just watching. :) Not a chance, we are always ragging on each other (but we never get angry). The funny thing is it is split down the line generationally with each generation having the same number!!! damn - foul did not crack kay's skull open Amy, same here, I try to live for today, although I know it's not always wise. I wish someone would just tell me right now if I'm going to live long enough to use what little savings we have. 'Cause if not, I want to spend it all on travel. Well, as long as no one gets nasty. You all must be more mature than Harvey and I are. Only the vow of silence seems to work. My favorite expression regarding money is: You can't take it with you. Isn't it a little early to talk about CC's 300th win? "The funny thing is it is split down the line generationally with each generation having the same number!!!" Too funny. So it's a definite no??? Jos1 I mean. Where does your heart yearn to be, l-girl? Travel-wise.... At least you have savings. We spend it before we can save it. And then we borrow. But we always call it "responsible borrowing." When we sold our house recently and had so little equity in it, we rationalized that we had used that equity to send two kids to college and to pay for a wedding, etc. My favorite expression regarding money is: You can't take it with you. Mine: money, so they say, is the root of all evil today. Patrick, you're right, but it's probably a little harder to take that view if you have kids and a mortgage. Eck: uh oh. Never mind, not Eck. Amy, you're telling me you have no savings, no pension? That's hard to believe. You owned a home that you sold, so you had equity from that. We will never own a home, and we have no pension except our own savings. Jim Nantz in the booth with Don and Eck. Hello, Friend. Maybe they can show the action on the field. That would be nice. Mine: money, so they say, is the root of all evil today. I have related-demos, but thought they might be too old farty. Yeah, its a definite no, (BH and I) have been spending days going over everything but with the college fund losing a good portion of money, the 500 here and 500 there for this n that for Marist along with all the crap that came down in the last two weeks it is literally hold everything until September for extra money. Why do you think I have been emptying the liquor cabinet? Sit JohnGF, I am a travel nut. The list of places I want to go is very long. I've traveled as much as I can, but as I get older and I feel time moving so quickly, it feels urgent. I don't have enough time and money to do the travel I want... but I'm working on that. Changing my life to get more of both. Why do you think I have been emptying the liquor cabinet? ~$18/5gal. We have a 401K or whatever, but no pension. We only have that because our employer contributes partially to it and the rest comes directly from our paychecks. It's a good thing. So yeah, I guess those are savings, but since I never have to take the money and put it away, I can't be tempted to spend it. If it were in my hands, it would somehow not get put it into savings. As for the house, see above. We had only a small amount of equity when we sold it. OK s1c, I will let it go. Good luck with everything. I keep wondering if there are other threaders who we neglected to invite. I have related-demos, but thought they might be too old farty. Well, my perception is that Pink Floyd are still doing quite well with 20+ people. There's plenty of 90's music I'd consider more "old farty" than them. But then again, about half my music is from the 70s, so maybe I'm not objective... Ah, S1C, that answers my question from last night (not sure you saw it). I was concerned about why two games in a row you said you were emptying the liquor cabinet. Hang in there. I do believe things will eventually get better. Have you called Marist about the change in your job circumstances? Colleges can be pretty good about those things, though these days even they are pinched. Hey Mikey! DO doesn't want to interrupt Nantz to say the inning ended. The borrowing issue is one of the reasons I took so long to go to school. My parents told us when we were in high school that um, yeah. We don't have any money saved for you to go to college. I never really entertained the thought of taking out massive student loans but it's taken until now to realize how I just have to grin and bear it. I still want to continue to live a life that is low on borrowing. "We have a 401K" That's all I meant. That's all we have, the Cdn equivalent of IRA. We do the automatic savings thing too. We don't have a lot, but we don't make a lot, either. Thanks for the good wishes, but it will work out, just pisses me off that after all this time I get treated like crap and have to make major changes to how I approach my job on such short notice. now you need $ to restock the cabinet ... All the travel I want to do optimally needs me to be younger than I am: hiking and riding horses take it out of me more and more. Still keeping in the game, but not sure how long I can. Ish, student loans are not a bad deal when it comes to borrowing. And you have lots of time to pay them off very slowly. Damn... how did we let a MFY pitcher last more than 2 2/3 innings! Red Sock - trust me, I won't have to buy liquor if I get drunk every night for a month. #1 gift recieved for years in this family has been liquor, I empty one cabinet and just go to the basement and bring up another case or bottle. Ish, almost everyone takes out loans for school. It's pretty much impossible to do otherwise. You're investing in your future. I have a young lawyer friend who says "I took out a mortgage on my brain". She does nonprofit public interest law, so she says it's the only mortgage she'll ever have. John, is that you and your dog in your avatar? Amy, it's just wrapping my head around it. But I'm diving into it... That's also a big reason I'm going two years at community college and then transfering elsewhere. I love this time of year. Outside, the gloam is still crepuscular. "just pisses me off that after all this time I get treated like crap and have to make major changes to how I approach my job on such short notice." Yup. I hear ya. Careful, you'll turn into a socialist. JUST KIDDING S1C One of my five (5!) dogs, Amy, yes. When he was a puppy. And I was younger too. YES stat tiz vs nyy .308 tiz vs others .184 I don't know what Benjamin just said. It's quite dark here with the overcast. Barely seeing some daylight through the leaves. BAHAHAHAHAH DROPPED IT~!!!!! HAHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA Ish--gotta love the Maine Community College System! Take it from me up at EMCC. More and more people are doing that, Ish. Community colleges are a great deal, and you can finish up almost anywhere. Our undergraduate school has a fair number of students who start at community colleges for that reason---they save money and still get a degree from a four year school. Plus you can skip those damn standardized tests! "All the travel I want to do optimally needs me to be younger" We have one wish-list trip like that, dog-sledding. Now we even have a friend in the Yukon we can visit and learn with. I fear if we don't go soon we never will. THANKS JOHNNY!!!! YOU SURE SUCK!!!! This is great! DAMON!! HHAHAH! Yup. I hear ya. Careful, you'll turn into a socialist. LOL - of course what really pisses me off, if my boss was six weeks older, I probably wouldn't have to make any changes plus would be getting a raise, but no he's six weeks shy of taking the early retirement. Five dogs?! Yay!

Angels - 000 301 004 - 8 12 1 Red Sox - 032 207 30x - 17 20 1 Joe Saunders / Clay Buchholz With: Peter Abraham, Globe:Peter Abraham, Globe:Scutaro, SS Pedroia, 2B Martinez, C Youkilis, 1B Drew, RF Lowell, DH Beltre, 3B Hall, LF McDonald, CF Starting tonight, the Red Sox will play 20 of their next 23 games (in 24 days) against teams that figure to be playoff contenders this season. ...There is probably some middle ground between those two choices, but there's little arguing with the fact that this is a very important month. May 3- 6 Angels May 7- 9 Yankees May 10-12 Blue Jays May 14-16 at Tigers May 17-18 at Yankees May 19-20 Twins May 21-23 at Philadelphia May 24-26 at Tampa BayCome May 27, the season will be 30 percent over and the Sox will know whether they are contenders or frauds. Is it too early to give up on the 2010 Red Sox? NO!, say 54.1% voters in this Globe poll. ! 199 comments: it is such a different team without Ellsbury, maybe it is easy to read into that , but he just seems to create a buzz , that hasn't been there since he has been out... Annual Town Meeting for me tonight. The auditorium is a cell dead spot... no MLB on my phone for me. Enjoy tonight's slamming win! I'm discouraged. But I'll be watching tonight. Apparently Dave Roberts has Hodgkin's lymphoma, but the prognosis is good. Aybar, SS Abreu, DH Hunter, CF Morales, 1B Matsui, LF Rivera, RF Izturis, 3B Kendrick, 2B Napoli, C! We said this every other day in 2007. Hi! Been lurking here for about a year but I've always had problems logging in to comment. Anyway, I just got tickets to Wednesday's game. It'll be my first Red Sox game to attend. Decided to splurge a little bit in celebration of end-of-exams. Any tips for the first-timer? I picked Wednesday because the weather looks to be good, and I think the match-up will be Lackey vs his old team. Should be interesting. My only tip is savour every moment. Your first time at Fenway is very special. Enjoy! And welcome to the thread. Why am I just not excited about watching this game? OK, our "ace" is pitching, so I should feel better. But alas.... Meanwhile, we are going to the game on Saturday against the NYY. Our annual game with my brother and his Yankee fanatic friend Adine. I may need xanax for that game. FY! Hi, Matt....there is almost nothing you need to do to enjoy Fenway. It's just the best place on earth to watch baseball. Even my Yankee fan friends say it's true. Enjoy the game! FY flinched a bit at that flying bat. FY X 2! this new thing on espn where they have little lights for balls, strikes and outs really sucks. can't tell how many are lit. ... OH FUCKING FY PCIK!!!!! Fenway has always been my favourite park. Even... you know when. The first time I was there I just could not get over how beautiful it was. I had seen it on TV so many times but it was like I had never seen it before. DEFENSE!!! now for some offense. So I just was using the Google translate tool and translated this page into French (and back to English). It's pretty funny to read our comments translated into French. Unfortunately, my French is sort of junior high level vocabulary, but still amusing. Our comments seem so much more erudite in French! Everything sounds better in French. Please be ok Double-H Matt, Enjoy your trip to Fenway. It is amazing. I was awestruck when we first walked in. I felt a lot like Rudy's dad..."This is the most beautiful sight these eyes have ever seen." Beyond that, the atmosphere is unbelievable. There is a sea of fans and it is impressive. Take the tour. did joe just say "clog the bases"? beltrE Turnout will be light here tonight, I think, between the sucking Sox and the charging Bruins. E-drian Phew. RSVP. OK, now I cannot turn off the damn translater. Every time I switch a web page or refresh, I get a toolbar at the top asking if I want to translate. Arrggh. That's what I get for playing around with things. weiters dong BAL: 01 MFY: 0 Oh yes, speaking of French, RSVP. Amy, did you try right-clicking on the toolbar? SWEATY!!! SWEAT POWERED YOUK!! We score first!! I think I fixed it. Don't ask how, but it went away. For now. Maybe it was when I cursed at it in French. I love French cursing. Dr Singles! Nothing like our old guys coming through for us. FORE MONTY HALL LET'S MAKE A DONG!!!!!!! Hall-lelujah! My eyes are burning! We have two home runs and are ahead by three runs! And we are playing the ANGELS! Whoa, we got a three-run lead here now. Loooong inning for Saunders. Youk is NOT happy about that. yeah, yook very chatty on the way to first! Doctor Doubles does it once more! the doctor is in -- and on second base. Whoo-hoo! Dr Doubles this time! Do my eyes deceive me? 5-0?? Not quite dead yet. Were you referring to Lowell or the team, Benjamin? Both work, really. YEAH! Nice. CS! Always easier when you cut Martinez out of the play. Not Dead Yet? More like. Drew thinks he'll go for a walk. I knew someone would post that. :) Ozzie never ceases to amuse: Swisher hit a go-ahead two-run home run in the sixth -- leaving his arm up longer than the State of Liberty -- Chicago rallied to win. And as far as Swisher's celebration, Guillen said that's just the kind of person Swisher is. "That's the way he is. Good for him, enjoy it," Guillen said. "I wish he could do that for me, because he wasn't a very good player for me. He was very bad for me." 9C where are you quoting from? L-girl said... 9C where are you quoting from? the post I believe Why did I miss something? I don't know if you missed anything, just wanted to know the source. No link or quotes or anything, but it didn't sound like you. L-girl said... I don't know if you missed anything, just wanted to know the source. No link or quotes or anything, but it didn't sound like you. sorry if I confused you , but I stick to what I am good at....:) I stick to what I am good at....:) Always a good decision Thanks for the replies. Glad to see some offense tonight. Hopefully Buch can recover that bad inning. angels playing with (on) fire .... !!! ON FIRE Bottled water companies telling us how their bottles are recyclable and you can make shirts out of them = very fucked up. Evening folks...good to see some runs on the board. Get him out! Out of the inning... Alright! Still rolling. mdc up Wow! Caught stealing. Wow, another runner thrown out at second! Not ANOTHER CS?? Nice work, HH. Let's see if the bullpen can avoid imploding for a change. victor got his shit figured out! even with the one hop throw, fy was waiting with the tag. Back after a 3-2 Bruins win. We've had several good bullpen appearances lately. ...although it seems like whenever our bullpen does well, Amy is not around. Convenient. ;) yoooooooooook mr. rbi! I am here, just checking in and out. I would love to see our bullpen do well! Go Drew GO! lowell into 3rd?? wearing a jet pack??? nice. Wow Sciocia really left this pitcher out to dry. drew runs thru stop sign (thinking, fuck that coach, he's a blind fool...) I just threaded on the wrong blog! :) BELTRE BELTS ONE! Whoo-hoo! Now we don't even need the bullpen to be good, just decent. YES --- 14-4!!!!!!!!! FUCK YEAH TIMES 3!!! Save a few runs for tomorrow, boys. MOAR PLZ Nice to see some offense! Maybe being swept by Baltimore will be the turning point for the season, when everyone on the team said: It's ON. I thought sweeping Toronto was a turning point. But this will do! Wow. What a score. &, to think, when I wore my Papelbon jersey to the university library today, a couple students wearing Yankee caps laughed at me. The Angels are getting KNOCKED THE FUCK OUT, we're up by 10! EN FUEGO. He is El Hombre tonight! ob's harsh words have clearly lit a fire under drew. good ol' shemp!!!!!!!! Dr Doubles strikes again! Save some runs for tomorrow night! Wouldn't that triple by Lowell have been an ITPHR for a lot of other people on the team? i think it was a double and he took third on the throw home to try and get drew Obie thinks the RS should slack off! Too many hits and runs! GODDAMN IT: MAKE TITO APOLOGIZE!!!!!!!!!! I know! "You almost want to tell them to call off the dogs and save some for tomorrow night" As if you can do that! I never call off my dogs! ;) Time to empty the bench. Holy crap! Just got back from a nearly 4-hr town meeting to find it 17-4!?!! Off to check out box scores, comments, and foooood. Keep scheduling those meetings, nick--seemed to do the trick. HOLY SHIT! I had to leave for a bit---17 runs! OMG! We don't need any bullpen tonight. Do you think this lead is safe? just saw bot wandering around - tito may be worried ... Nick, I hope your town hall was as good as this game. Democracy to spare. Even I think this lead is safe. Even if Papelbon and RamRam are pitching. Even if Timlin came back to pitch. Is the lead more, or less, safe if Bot comes in? TIMLIN!!! What about Eric Gagne? No, Timlin would blow it. Gagne would definitely blow it. I still have nightmares about him. At least I have some positive memories of Timlin. Maybe Van Every for an inning on the mound? Timlin blew more games than Gagne ever saw as a Sock. Good old Toast. How I don't miss him. What the hell did these guys ingest since they left Baltimore?? Heidi's first game back in some time..........I'm just sayin' Good point, Amy. We better make sure they all pee in a cup before they leave the park tonight. I bet Gagne had a worse overall record with the Sox than Timlin did. 9C--you devil, you! I love annual town meeting, though this one was frustrating at times. It easily could have been an hour shorter. One of the big items was a petition to close one of our two public libraries and there was lots of organizing around opposing that. A guy got up (big proponent of keeping the library open) and made a motion to pass over the question. If passed it would be tabled dead. People who came to oppose the closing were audibly upset at that and refused to pass over the question, so we had to hear half an hour of people going on about it while clearly a massive majority would clap after each one. Move the question! (/rant) Yeah, where was Heidi? I heard her say she was glad to be back earlier, but missed why she had been away. nick--Robert's Rules of Order take time to wind themselves out but patience winds out sooner sometimes Heidi's back? That's totally it. Testosteroooooone! Amy said... Yeah, where was Heidi? I heard her say she was glad to be back earlier, but missed why she had been away Something about a concussion he got in spring raining. I'm sure Gagne's record was worse, but it's a much smaller sample size. Timlin sucked more often, was my point. Amy: she got a concussion during spring break and has been on medical leave. Yes, I think this win is because of Heidi. Mm-hm. Thats where they practice only in the rain.... What was the final vote on the library, Nick? Town meetings can be great, but also demonstrate often why democracy doesn't really work too well. But it is one of the things I love about living in a small New England town. So are they gonna close the library? NESN has also feel in love with HH's wife, showed her a few times in Toronto and also tonight alot.... 9C LOL How the hell did she get a concussion? Was she trying to catch a ball? just hold 'em to 12, scott. something about tek's headboard ... Amy said... How the hell did she get a concussion? Was she trying to catch a ball? Is this one open to anything? ..:) This could be a turning point. When I went away earlier it looked like the A's were getting ready to make a come back. 17 runs! Turning point. Looks like up from here. LOL, 9C! You must be feeling very happy tonight---making us all laugh. I am now feeling better about going to Fenway with Yankee fans on Saturday. Are she and Tek still an item? That was mean, Allan. I laughed loudly! Michael Holloway said... This could be a turning point. Maybe. Also not a reality, just closer to what it should be, especially at Fenway.. We are a cheery group tonight. What a nice change! I think Heidi is several Sox away from Tek by now. I just want to say I called it in my first post upthread. 2 CS from V-Mart. nice! Amy said... LOL, 9C! You must be feeling very happy tonight- The magic of good sox baseball... I think Heidi is several Sox away from Tek by now. But Tek could still be one of the three stooges. Come on, Schoenweiss. Don't make me eat my words about the lead being bullpen proof. Heidi indulges in serial socksing? we must be up by a lot -- no one mentioning bases loaded in the 9th But Tek could still be one of the three stooges. Then she's really got something going on. Good for her. I did, Allan. You can always count on me to worry. Though I am not really worried. Heidi indulges in serial socksing? So they say. I only get my gossip in gamethreads, so I really don't know. ZOMG they scored a run we are doomed etc etc L-girl said... But Tek could still be one of the three stooges. Then she's really got something going on. Good for her. Only in a 17-4 game to you hear L's true feelings on group sex...I like it...:} Loaded bases have to insert a slight feeling of dis-ease whatever the fucking score.... Uh oh, we only have an eleven run lead now, and we still need one more out. The library will stay open. The guy who started the petition to close it had some interesting points. He's lived here his whole life (61yo). We're a town of 7500 w/ 2 full public libraries. We also have a (small) college in town with a library open to townies. We just spent 3-4 million renovating the one in town. This one in the village of Housatonic (which periodically wants to secede from Great Barrington) will need 1-2 million for renovations/ADA issues in the next few years. We voted down replacing a 22yo fire truck, so we clearly have some budget concerns. When we were up by 10 runs in the 7th, Obie said something about extra innings. I said, if we go into extra innings tonight, you can bet I won't be watching the game tomorrow night. OK, we are down to single digit lead. WTF? WTF? runs. that was foul. That's a decent case for closing a library. But I'm still glad it will stay open. Not that I'm biased or anything. Was that ball actually foul? It sounds like all the towns around here (and probably almost anywhere these days). Not enough money, and difficult choices about where to cut: schools, library, public safety, infrastructure? It's terrible. Only in a 17-4 game to you hear L's true feelings on group sex...I like it...:} Holy shit, I just saw this! OMG I am cracking up. That is all I will say! the ump has $ on the run diff? our public library here in Waterbury, lends out more DVD's than books....hence my spelling issues. Nick--That's a lot of libraries for a town of 7500. Are they just geographically distant or specializing somehow? Belfast Maine had three weekly newspapers for years. I thought the ball was foul, but apparently no one on the Sox did. Or they didn't care to protest the call. bring in van every for the last fucking out, pls. CHRIST. The vote was 90-odd % in favor of keeping it open, but he made a compelling argument, though it came far too late in the discourse. His letter to the editor on the subject last week was not very good. Last out please! Could we get this TF over with already?? TF, Laura? sox radio said the batter was shaking his head, like damn, a foul, then was surprised when he ended up be able to go on to second. TF as in WTF Thank goodness! DIRTY FILTHY! There really is DIRTY Water in Boston. And it's about fucking time! exhale... schoeneweis just needed the extra work, i guess muddy muddy muddy The water is Muddy!!!. Dirty! Good night all! Hasta tomorrow. Aha, I thought it was a noun. More power to Housatonic if it's willing to put money up to maintain its character. Good night, everyone. Let's hope we have really turned a corner. g'night Nothing good comes easily... G'night all! last library thing: Good for Housatonic for sure, but it requires money from all of GB, but in general the town is good with it. 5 HR more than the MFY. Beltre w/ 6 errors. World turned upside down. Wow. This was fun. Got to watch it on the big screen at the bar while my buddies played almost right under it. Fun! Nice game, fun night with the Bruins and Celtics also winning!

When people ask me why I became an atheist, the answer is always the same - I was born that way. The truth is I've never believed in a god, and it's only through television, my peers and the oddly cultural-relativistic public school system in Australia that I even came to know god. When I was 9 I changed schools where I was asked what religion I was, I said Christian because I went to scripture at my old school. At further pressing they asked me if I was catholic or Anglican, I didn't know the difference and said catholic. Needless to say my Mother got me out of that nutty cult room pretty quickly. When I was 12 and finally old enough to understand the question, I rejected the concept of God and have since been an outspoken atheist. So why am I mentioning this? Because my background matters when reviewing John W. Loftus' book Why I Became An Atheist: A Former Preacher Rejects Christianity. It matters for me to make the case for my atheism because unlike a lot of people in western society, I was not brought up Christian. In scripture at school, we weren't taught from the bible, but were taught of the nature of God and the power of faith through parables. It wasn't a literal reading, it was very liberal, very much about selling a personal relationship with Jesus. So to read a book criticising fundamentalism is not even attacking the Christianity I know, to me it's attacking the extreme right who have no basis in reality to begin with. To me, a criticism of biblical literacy should begin and end with science. We know the world is more than 6000 years old, we know that life evolved - both these facts have been known for more than 100 years now. Yet there are still those who take mythic storytelling and think of it as history? No wonder my scripture teachers focused on the power of belief instead of trying to warn me of the dangers of talking snakes. That to want a personal relationship with Christ is better than selling children on the dangers of Hell. I have been an avid reader of Loftus' blog, Debunking Christianity, for some time now and find him to be a reasonable and level-headed man. Which is why the first thing that shocked me about the book was the way he would talk about what he used to believe, that it is so obviously absurd. And as I went on through the book, what stood out was how poor the intellectual reconciliation between the modern understanding of the world and the bible actually is. The reconciliations take an absurdity and make it sound even more absurd. To preserve the notion that the bible is the word (in some sense) of an omniscient deity, the most asinine explanations are presented. The book didn't even need Loftus' debunking those claims - they could not stand up on their own. This is not to say I hated the book, Loftus is an excellent writer and wrote a mostly engaging argument. I say mostly engaging because I found the excessive quoting of scripture to be tedious. But then again, I keep getting scripture quoted at me so it must mean something to somebody - I'm really not the target audience for this. There were some parts that made the book worth getting - the outsider test for faith is possibly the best argument against religion, and that goes for all religion. The philosophy and explanation of the control beliefs was also really thorough and well presented. And finally at the end, the way he tackled the idea of ultimate meaning was done very well. I was asked if I were to recommend an atheist book to theists, would it be this or Dawkins' book The God Delusion. I answered this book, and I do thoroughly recommend it. But at the same time I found Dawkins' book to be a lot more intellectually satisfying. It gave reasons to do away with superstition, this book attacked what is in my mind a straw-man of Christianity. But what I've fast come to realise over the last 5 years or so, what I perceive as a straw-man is the intellectual and moral foundations for hundreds of millions of people. Apparently some people still believe we are magic dirt who ate some bad fruit on the advice of a talking snake. Thankfully it's now the 21st century and J.K. Rowling has written a much better tale warning of the dangers of listening to talking snakes, and we don't even have to believe that there's a platform 9 3/4 at Kings Cross station to heed this advice. Wednesday, 20 May 2009 38 comments: I always chuckle at positive reviews for gibberish. I'm sorry to have to say that but, Dawkins was intellectually satisfying? Even Atheists who know a thing or two about the topic know his book to be rather poor. despite its reputation, it snot a Scientific condemnation of Religion, its just Dawkins making a fool of himself with ridiculous arguments that make no sense. As to Loftus, his arguments are not really any better. Am I saying that all Christians make good and decent cases for heir beliefs? No. But neither do most Atheists I know. However, this doesn't mean Loftus's work really is that grand, and as you said its often an attack on Strawmen. Lets look at the argument you found to be the most powerful, and inf act a good case against all Religion. The Outsiders test of Faith. The trouble with the Outsiders Test is that it can be applied to Johns current religion as well as his past one. I realsie he's now an Atheist and the old clam that Ahtiests aren't' religious will come up, but I'll address that momentarily. The Outsiders Test of Faith assumes that Atheists, like you and Loftus, do not have a Religion. Christians, like me, do. Our religion is silly and absurd but we stupid Christan don't relaise it. Meanwhile, we stupid Christians think Islam, and Hinduism, and Buddhism are silly. We hear what they believe, apply critical thinking and logic, and dismiss their claims of miracles and gods and demons. We simply refuse to look at our own Religion with the same critical eye. Thus, Loftus's argument is that if we looked at our Religion as we do other peoples, n my case if I looked at Christianity form an outsiders perspective, I'd see it as just as silly as I see Buddhism or Hinduism or Islam. then I'd be forced to conclude that all Religions are ultimately silly, and then I'd give up Religion and become an Atheist. The main problems with this are in the fact that not all people form one religion see all other religions as utterly absurd. I know that, as a Christian, I don't find Islam completely absurd. I disagree with some of its tenets, but find it overall Reasonable in many of its theological aspects. (this is not to get into the strict adherence to certain forms of Islam, as that'd take too long.) I also don't find Buddhism absolutely absurd, and find no real difficulty in seeing it as rational. Again, I disagree with pats of Buddhism, but I don't think Buddhism is in and of itself something silly. I have no difficulties in understanding why people believe in it. And there is the first problem I have with his "Outsiders Test of Faith". It rests entirely upon the idea that I should find everyone else's Religion as silly and absurd and should laugh that people believe that nonsense. As I don't find every Religion on earth except mine as nonsense, though, I have to wonder why John would assume I'd find my own absurd and silly and unbelievable should I look at it form the outside. In fact, I have looked are it from the outside and still find it reasonable. To John, this means I didn't really set aside my Christianity and look at it because, as with Dawkins, he assumes that if one doesn't arrive at the "Correct" conclusion, the one he has set out for us to arrive at, then we must not have properly examined our Religion critically. Which brings me to the next spot of trouble i see in Loftus's idea. What about his Religion? Despite claiming to be Non-Religious, Loftus does have a system of beliefs that one can say are analogous to Religion. He isn't JUST an Atheist, he has beliefs about the origin and nature of our world, and how that world operates. he has a systematic belief about how we exist and why, and where moral codes come from. He has a basic system of beliefs that enable him to relate to his world, and to interpret it in a way he can understand it. And this is all Religion actually is. Religion isn't about belief in gods, if it where then Atheistic Religions like Zen Buddhism wouldn't be Religions. Religion isn't always about a higher power, or involve Supernatural events. All Religion is, in the end, is a Philosophical outlook on life. A Religion is just a worldview. Everyone has a Religion, and this includes John Loftus, and you. I realise those who are Atheistic these days do not like me saying this and will disagree vehemently, as The word has been given a lot of Negative Baggage by those who have dedicated their lives to criticism of Christianity, and belief in God generally, but its still true. One shoudln't confuse "Religion" with "Theism", nor shoudl we assume Religion is a seperate thing that operates fundamentlaly differently than other forms of thought. Dawkins Mind Virus idiocy is just that, idiocy. All a Religion is is the way peopel see the world. And this brigns me to my point. Wy can't we apply the Outsiders Test of Faith to John Loftus's claims? Are we really to beleive that if we apply te Outsiders Test of Faith, we will all be atheists becaus we relaise all Relgiiosn are silly andhtus be exactly like John? Why can't we see Johns Ideas form the outside and fidn them absurd and ridiculous? The claim that they can't be seen that way because he's not advocating anything, as he has no Religion to offer, is just foolish. Its clear he wants us to take on certain positive beliefs about things, and from an outsiders perspective those things should look just as silly and absurd as anything else in any other Religion. Of course you can also fall back on the idea that Johns beliefs are rooted in Logic and Reason, whereas Religion is rooted in Faith, which by definition is believing something even though you have no evidence. Which is precisely why the New Atheism increases intellectual malaise. Faith isn't actually belief without evidence. The word Faith actually means that one has confidence in a proposition, or loyalty to it. It is a synonym for trust. Faith can actually emerge from knoweldge, and knowledge can increase Faith. Even though Jesse "The Body" Ventura said that if you knew you'd not need faith, and despite the "Brilliant" ,men like Harris and Dawkins et all saying Faith is beleif without evidence and hrus irrarional, its simply not true to see Faith as beleif without evidence. Certainly none of he Christian Thinkers odf old who are welle steemed did. Nor did the Jewish Rabbinical Tradition hold this position. I can find nothign in Ha-Islam that does. Its eally just a Caracature. Its also silly to beleive Reason leads automaticlaly to Atheism, and that Atheism is always linked ot a certian view on the owrd thats in line with modern Humanism. One can be reaosnable and arrive at THeism. One can be an outsder and ocnvert to Christianity, as many have. One can apply the Outsiders Test of Faith and still end up beleivign what oen did before. And One canbe an Athiest and belifve radiclaly differenlty than John Loftus. I can't fathom why peopel think this is a grand arugment. It sliek the Ultimate 747 of Dawkns, or the endless misquotation of the US Fnding Fathers, its a sueless argument. It doenst even ask if these beleifs are true, it just asks us to ebelvie all Relgiiosu epoepl see all other relogiosn as silly but their ownand asusmes they'd see their own as silly if they saw it omr the outside, and asusmes Johns Ateism is not a Religion in and of itself and is the natural conclusion to rejectign the silliness of Religion. COme now, thats not trelaly intellectually developed thinking. And sorry fo the multiple posts, but I didnt realsie the world limit until after Id written this, and didnt wantot just erare the whoel thing. I'm also Dysleic, and dint spell check the full of this. Thanks for the multitude of comments, I'll try over time to respond to them all. Dawkins book is a good polemic against superstitious thought, against a liberal point of view that religion is something that deserves protection. In that he achieved success, it was similar to what Sam Harris wrote in The End OF Faith. If anyone was looking for a sophisticated argument against religion, then reading the likes of Dawkins, Harris or Hitchens is not the way to go. Like I said, I wouldn't recommend Dawkins' book to theists. Whether atheists can make a decent case for their beliefs (well lack of belief which is all atheism is - just like someone who doesn't believe that the stars carry celestial messages for our species) is irrelevant. Atheism is the position that there isn't enough evidence to believe in a higher power, the burden is on any religious person to demonstrate their beliefs. If there's no credible evidence for believing in a higher power, then why believe at all? As for the Outsider Test For Faith, just look at Christianity. The core of the Christian doctrine for over 1600 years has involved the trinity. That God is simultaenously one form and three forms. It is logically impossible. 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 is absurd. The whole concept of Jesus being God-incarnate is absurd. And this is just one example. If you think that Christianity passes the outsider test for faith, please demonstrate so. [more tonight] Kel, your makign the same errors I noted before. You make this a debate between Religious people and Atheists. Actually, though, one can be religious and an Atheist. And I've said before, I've never met a Non-Religious person. Religion isn't beleif int he SUpernatural (As John now wants us to beelive, and has posted on over at DC) its simply a Phiilosophy one beelives in. That said, Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens et all don't make a good case agaisnt Superstition beignprotected. For one thing,the very fact that you employ the word Superstition to apply to Religion, and seem to limit Religion to Theism, indicates that it actulaly does the oposite. Dawkins basically advvocates that we unthinkignly reject Religion, which he also narrowly defines, and attack it mercilessly. Rather than simply arguing that we should allow critisism of Religion, he aruges that it ought ot be mocked until it becoems socially unacceptable and everyone becoems sensable and logical, which in Dawkisn mind means that everyone shoudl think just like him. You se, one cannot be intelegent and rational and disagree with Dawkins... Its that sort of arrogance that prevents me from taking his words seriosuly and that are rather obviously employed by his Drones, and htis seems to include you, sadly. Considering that Religious beleifs, particulalry Christianity, have already been subject to endless critisism over the last 200 years, Dawkins isn't even saying anythign new or bold. He just oretnds that soemhow he's breakign a Taboo, and that he's challenign society to finally look at Religion criticlaly. He's hwoever writtign in a time when Athiests have high level jobs in Parliment (We'll see hw many remain after the current scandal ends) have no toruble findign work in Universities and seem to not be bothere din life. He live sin a time when the BBC mocks Christianty in telvision comedies and in which Documentaries are released about "The real origins of CHristianity" in even America. Yet you want to sit here with a straight face tellign me his messaege is that we shoudln't make religion soemthign hat can't be critisised? Thats nonsense, its already critiissed. Dawkisn is a moral and intllectual coward who simply sees it as a weakenign force and wants to pounce while its down. As to the Outsiders Test of Faith, I fear you havent rea dmy words on it, but as I've said, I don't actually find all Religious beelifs form every other Religion in th world ridiculous, so I dont think Johns logic is solid. I also don't think I shoudl accept his Religion just because he says it snot a Relgiion. Why shoudl I asusme that Atheism is true because all the worlds religiosn are silly? WHy shoudkl we asusme that Johns beleifs are osmehow soimplety a "Lack of beelifs" and tht I'd be just liek him if I follow htis test? Are you really goign to tell me that his views aren't really vieews and cant be critisised? Also, do learn soething about the Trinity. When you say its been in Christendom for 1600 years, you seem to beleive the runnish that it was cfreated at Nicea. Dan Brown history is not real History. And the Trinity actulaly does make sense. Its not 1+1+1=1, and no matte rhow cute the sterotype, usign a catchprhase wont do. The Trinity actulaly teaches they are three persons withone essence, not three distinct and compeltley seperate beigns who if you add them up equel one being. Its rathe rlike a Science Ficiton show in which three bodies ar eoperated by a single mind. Thats an analogy and not perfect, btu it gives you a better idea. Rather than the Trinity beign undertsood as three seperat ebeigns but oen God, its understood as one beign divided into three parts. And I have given it thought, which is another sterotype we can do without. What a broad definition of religion, so broad that the term becomes absolutely useless. From wikipedia: A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural or transcendent quality, that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power or truth.From the dictionary: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.If you are going to define religion is such nebulous terms, then there is no point in using the word. It means nothing and distracts from actually having a point. So please, use a definition of religion that is at least allows for one to make a point. Oh, and atheism is not a religion. It's simply the lack of belief in God. It's like calling not collecting stamps a hobby. Like calling starvation a meal. Like calling bald a hair colour. Again, please work in terms that actually are useful and relevant, otherwise you can't properly communicate. Also, if you have some problem with John W Loftus' philosophical position, please take it up with him. I'm not here to defend anyone's philosophical position but my own. This blog is called Kelosophy for a reason - it's about how I see the world. If you have problems with my arguments, bring them up. But I'm not here to defend Loftus, Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris or anyone else for that matter. So if you have a problem with arguments I've presented, go ahead and argue against them. I ask that you do so in a constructive manner, that is communicate in such a way that will allow for the facilitation of information exchange. i.e. use terms as close as possible to definitions that are part of the lexicon, it's important for communication. As for your outsider test for faith, remember what the challenge is calling for - an outsider perspective. What does your religion look like to an outsider? It's not whether you can justify the beliefs as an insider, but what they would look like if you were explaining them to an alien who had never come across religion before. How would you explain your beliefs to someone who is well educated on how the universe works? How would you explain your beliefs to someone who doesn't know how the universe works, but has at his disposal a baloney detection kit? Does Christianity pass this test? I would say not anymore than any other world religion. Kel, your not really reaidng what I said, so Ill put it in Bullet format. 1: If you dont want me to make commentary on Dawkins, then downt mention him yourself. If your goign to prais ehim and his views, then you invite critiissm of the same. The same holds for Loftus and anyoen else you think had ideas that are good and want to present. 2: I get a lot of the itme that peoel say my deifnition is so broad it includes anythign and the deifnition is worhtless. However, my deifnition of Religion isnt that broad, it just doens't preclude Athwistic Philosophies. My deifnition is also what Socilogists see Religion as. Even Wikipedia, which is a bad soruce, mentions Religion as notoriosuly difficult to define. Religion is just how youy see the world, a Philosophicla framework, and you certianly have htis. 3: Theism isn't a Religion. I didnt say Ahtiesm was a Relgiion, but neither is THeism. Beleiving a god exists is not a Relgiion, but beleif in a gods existance can be a part of, even central to, a Religion. Atheism, in the same ay, cna be a part of, even central to, a Relgion. As much as Athiesm is not a Religion in and of itself, it is still a part of a religious suystem when incoeproated into a Philosophy about how life works, which is all Religion is. 4: You also misse dmy point. The POutsiders Test of Faith doens't work because I have looked at it form the outsiders point of view and dotn find Christaintiy that unreasonable. Just like I dont find all other Religiosn to be unreasonable either. The "Baloney Detection Kit" may be a relalyneat thign picke dup from Sagan, but it doens't really work in this instance since you cna't relaly sow why I woudl think Christainity is Baloney if I was an outsider. Many peopel dont think its all that irrational to be a Christian, even if they themselves aren't. 1. Have you even asked me what I liked about Dawkins book? No, I just mentioned the name so you went off on a tangent. 2. Pray-tell, what are atheist philosophies? Atheism is the not-theism. It is nothing more than the lack of belief in god. What that includes, it could be anything but using a supernatural explantion. See my most recent post non-astrologer if you disagree. Wikipedia is a fine source for most things, I wouldn't use it as a source when doing a university paper but for general knowledge it represents a good starting point. I used it out of convenience.. 4. If you think many religions pass the outsider test for faith, then so be it. Again, I do not think it passes the outsider test for faith, that there are too many things in the religion that make no sense at all. Start with the concept of God and then stem to pretty much everything that makes Christianity Christianity. You've made 8 posts on here now, but have you even once asked what my philosophy is? You said earlier: "Everyone has a Religion, and this includes John Loftus, and you." So what is my religion? Come on, please tell me what religion I am. I'd be curious to know. But please pull a definition of religon that makes it distinguishable from worldview and from individual beliefs. Otherwise if religion is going to be synonymous with worldview, why use the word at all? Also, is it too much to ask for a spell checker? Firefox has one built in. Kel, I never said I coudl tell you what your Religion was, only htat you have one. Thats because Religion isn't beleif in gods, or supernaturlaism. Religion is just a worldview one holds to, that tells one how the world works and oens role in it. Everyone has that. Now to the rest. 1. Have you even asked me what I liked about Dawkins book? No, I just mentioned the name so you went off on a tangent.My Tanent ties into the reat of the asusptions, such as Faith beign beleif without evidence or Atheists lacjing Religion, and yoyur praise of Dawkisn book was more than enough to tell me that you tacetly agreed with most of his premise. Are you to tell me Im fully wrong here? 2. Pray-tell, what are atheist philosophies? Philosophies that are inheranlty Athistic, and that describe the state of the universe in terms of Ateism. Exampels include all forms of Secular Humanism, which itsel fincludes SOviet OCmmunism. Neitche was also foudner of an Athiestic Philosophy, so was Sartre. So don't pretend this is impossible. Atheism is the not-theism. It is nothing more than the lack of belief in god.But just saying thats what Atheism is doens't preclude the existance of Philosophies that incrproate Ateism, or ar ebased aroudn it, does it? You ac as if Atheistic Philosophies ar eipossible simply because Atiesm is a rejection fo theism. If thats so, then Theistic Philosophies are equelly imposisble, and CHristainiy isnt theistic. Its just daft. What that includes, it could be anything but using a supernatural explantion. See my most recent post non-astrologer if you disagree.Your post abotu "Non-Astrolegers" doens't relaly addres shwat Im dsaying. Im not saygn Athiem is in and of itself a Philosophy any mro ehtan Im sayign its in and of itself a Religion. Im sayign that Relgiion is philosophy and there are Philosophies rooted in Ahtism. There is a signifigant difference. I dont knwo why you find this IMPOSISBLE to fathom,. but there are Philosophies whose core assumptiosn include Atheism. They are Athisgic Philosophies. As much as Ahtiesm alone isnt a Philosophy, it still serves as a componant of,and often the core componnat of, many Philosophies ont he market. Wikipedia is a fine source for most things, I wouldn't use it as a source when doing a university paper but for general knowledge it represents a good starting point. I used it out of convenience.no, Wikipedia oftnegets its facts wrong. But Im not here ot discuss it. It doesnt matter as Wikipedia agreed wiht me that Relgion is not limited to Theistic beelifs or SUpernaturlaism. It just proved my point. I just dotn use it out of principle..Which is the same for Athisstic Philosophies. Spare me the tommyrot that Ahtiesm is just non-theism and the bit abotu non-astrologiers, you know full well by now I mean Philosophies groudned in Atheism as a foundatiinal assumption. Those Philosopheius are themselves Relgiions, which in turn demonstrate why I say Atheistss have a Religion even if atheism itslef is not a Religion. Its not that complicaed. 4. If you think many religions pass the outsider test for faith, then so be it. Again, I do not think it passes the outsider test for faith, that there are too many things in the religion that make no sense at all.But this may be because of where you are strgin from.? Hiding behidn the dodge that yours is rellay nonbeleif wont work. Start with the concept of God and then stem to pretty much everything that makes Christianity Christianity.I have, but non of its irraitonal nonsense. Thats the point. Have you never read Des Carte?)? Anyone relying on this book is going to have a superficial view of the arguments no matter which side you are on. I am suprised at all the praise and recommendations heaped on it by people like Geisler...it may be that he is actually setting Loftus up. Thats because Religion isn't beleif in gods, or supernaturlaism. Religion is just a worldview one holds to, that tells one how the world works and oens role in it.And I still contend that if religion and worldview are synonymous then there is no point in having two words. That religion is distinguished from worldview by many factors and this can be seen in the way the media, the general population and in academic circles the world is used. Everyone has a worldview, not everyone has a religion. Are you to tell me Im fully wrong here? I'm telling you that your criticisms of Dawkins were completely misguided. As you probably have established by now, I don't care about religion. I know, there's the r word again that you are so desperately trying to say "is just a worldview." When there is debate within academic circles about whether Buddhism is a religion, why aren't you there to solve the problem? After all, being a Democrat or an Environmentalist is a religion by your definition. You don't know what I got out of that book and why I liked it, and the criticisms you made of the book suggest that you don't have psychic powers or access to an omniscient deity because you got it completely wrong. So don't pretend this is impossible.Are there philosophies that have non-belief in them? Of course. But again, I feel you are defining terms here. Communism and humanism are inherently atheistic, but I would argue that there are not atheist philosophies. If you are going to call communism an atheist philosophy, why not capitalism? After all, the only god in capitalism is money. It says nothing of the supernatural - it only dictates behaviour between natural agents. Spare me the tommyrot that Ahtiesm is just non-theism and the bit abotu non-astrologiers, you know full well by now I mean Philosophies groudned in Atheism as a foundatiinal assumption.I disagree. Atheism is non-theism, that's all atheism is. This is why Sam Harris argues that the word shouldn't exist.?Again, please stop using the word religion that way. I don't come from a preconception that there is no higher power. I just haven't seen anything that actually demonstrates that there is a higher power. Again, I refer to the non-astrologer post. How I came to be an atheist was I was born. I didn't have any beliefs then (as beliefs are acquired) and I now have beliefs that say that God is a silly concept, all supernatural is. So why do I say this?. So would I call my belief in science a faith? I would not for two reasons. Science works in uncertainty, seeks to improve and change where it is lacking in explanation. Secondly, we can see that science works every second of every hour of every day. This computer I'm sitting on can do more calculations per second than the entire human population combined. Recently I flew halfway around the world on a small piece of flying metal. I have meat sitting in a deep freezer that I bought months ago. I don't have to pray to the god of electromagnetism in order for my computer to turn on. When there is a source of electricity coming into my house, then the computer will turn on at the touch of a button. When I turn on a tap and have running water, I know that if it comes out at water then it will stay as water, no matter how much I wish it would turn to wine. My worldview is that the universe is governed by a series of forces, blind forces that have all permutations of mankind in the universe. Radioactive substances will decay at a constant rate, non-radioactive substances will hold their form unless subject to nucleosysthesis like that in a star. The mind is a product of the body, that one needs a body in order to have a mind. Of course, all these points can be falsified. If my water were to miraculously turn into vodka, or that the lead in the house were miraculously able to turn into gold, or even if we could show that the mind and body are separate, I would say that my worldview is falsified. And given that every religion (in the classical use of the word) has these kinds of miracles in them - it is only in our knowledge of how the world actually works that such challenges may seem unfair. But hey, if God can cook a sacrificial bull through the power of prayer...)?Yeah, it's superficial. It has to be, you aren't going to get a book like that which tries to tackle everything and not have it be somewhat abbreviated. Where I found it lacking was when he was trying to describe the age of the universe. To me fundamental christianity is falsified the minute they talk about creationism or a young earth / universe. Why? because the plethora of evidence suggests that live evolved, the earth is around 4.55 billion years old and the universe is somewhere between 13 and 15 billion years old. It doesn't matter what the bible says because the bible is so obviously wrong when it comes to describing our "creation." Though when he was covering the different points of view, what stood out for me was how absurd the arguments were. The arguments trying to reconcile genesis with modern scientific findings were especially absurd. It may be superficial, but just look at the arguments that are being presented as reconciliation. So many have a very superficial understanding of science or the natural world at their core - if it had any grounding in reality at all. It was absurdity after absurdity, which to me suggested that Christianity should just cut it's losses and focus on the J-man instead of arguing by genesis.. Yo u think that through Sicnece we have ganed an undertsndign of Reality and made God obsolete, so thus Sicnece has killed Religion. But as I noted elsewhere, Religion is not the same hting as theism, nor does one have to be THeistic to be Religious. This is the toruble iwht Athiest sliek you. You soemhow conflate terms, and htink you are intellegent for doing so. In fact, you now want to claim that there is a debate in Academia over rather or not Buddhism is a Religion. There isn't. Everyoen agrees that it is. Buddhists even admit Buddhism is a Religion. If you study Buddhism in Univesity they will tell you its a Religion. The only lace I've seen Buddhism described as not a Reliigion is on the Internet, where the previalign attitude is that Buddhism is this cool philosohy abotu us gettign alogn and stuff, and thus is way better thsn CHristianity, and becauase we odnt have a problem with it it must not really be a Religion. But most of the peopel who think that way also have littel to no undertsnaing of Buddhism. Those wo do undertsand it know it is a Religion. Rather or not you wan tto admit this painful reality is irrelevant. Buddhism is a Religion and there really is no debat eon it. Just liek Religion isnt theism, despite your unnessisary and erroneous claims. By the way, many Sicnetists are Theistic, so if THeism has been discredite dby Sicnece, how do you explain them? If you borrow the Dawkisn or Harris modle and saythe are ocmpartmentalising, then I'd ask you the samehtign I ask all Dawkisn CDrones, how do you know? You seem to be parrotign another Religiosu tenet, that beleif in God existed onky to epxplain the unknowable and we dont need God ow because of Sicnece. But, since many peopel beliv in Both Sicnece and Gods existance, your enture premise is false. Especially since God sint used in most gheologies to elain rianstorms or grass growing. By the way, thats only one of the irraitonal things you've said. Heres another. "And I still contend that if religion and worldview are synonymous then there is no point in having two words." Is this even an argument? There are pelnty of word sin English that are identical in meanign to other words. Take a look at the English word "Sea", for example. Di you knwo that the word "Sea" and the word "Ocean" mean the same thing? Well, what if I told you they didnt mean the same thing, and contended the Ocean andthe Sea where different? Woudl you beleiv me? Woudl you beleive me if I used the same logic you used on why a Religion and a worldview aren the same? Woudl you beleive me if I said that we'd not need two words for the same hting, so thus the Ocean and the Sea cant be the same? Of coruse you lciam that Religion and Worldview are sperate dby "Many factors" , but so far, you havent listed any. THeoly thing you seem to have done is to conflate Religion wth THeism when you said Sicnece had kileld Religion ebcause God is obsolete nwo that we have explanatiosn fofor Natural Phoenomenon, which prive snly that you have a poor grasp of what Religion is, and try to force it to mean Theism. You also use the tired old bro,mide that my deifnition of Relgiion (WHich someone peopel think actulaly is mien as if I invented it) means that beign a Democrat or an Environe,mntalist is a Religion. Actually, no they arne't. The reaosn is because they dont invovle any real metaphysical assessemnt about how the world works. BEign a Democrat is beign afifliated with a Political party, which thus has a platofrm for social order, unelss by Democrat you mean "One who advocates Democracy', and even then you are confornted wiht the fac thtat this is soley political. Its not a worldview ina nd of itself, as it foesnt tell you hwo the world works and yor relationship to it. Beign an NEnvironemtnalist is also not a Religion becuase it snot a worldview inand of itself for the sme reaosns. Beign an environemtnalist means only that you htink we shoudl protect the Environmnt, it doesnt supply meanign and value to the Environemnt, or determien your rolwe in it, or relationship to it. \ Both Environmentalism and Democratic leanings are contengent on worldivew, but are nto themselves worldviews. So, no, they arne't Religiosn acpcrdign to what Ive said Religiosn are. But Humanism is, becaue unlike Environemtnalism or beign a Democrat, Humanism includes a dicussion about the role of Humanity in their environemnt and provides a way to unerstand hwo the world came abotu and works,a nd as a basis for unerstandign our relationship to the rest of the world arudn us. Im sorry that you dont see the difference, btu then you htink sagn things like "Non-Astorlogiers " makes sense. Also, COmmunism, as understood by the Marxist varitety, acutlaly shoudln't be distinguished form Hmansim liek you did, when you said "Communism and Humanism". THe COmmunists actulaly viewed hemselves as Hmanists,a nd if you read SOviet Literature, its cler they acutlly where Humanists. But to go furhter and clai Capitolism an Ahtisstic Philosophy you make yourself sound even more out of touch with what Im saying. Communism is an Ahttsoc Philosohy because it makes a positive assertion that no god exists. Read Marx. Read Lennin. Read Stalin. They go out of their ay to make this painfully obvious. The way the Soviet is to udnertand the word is by following Hmanist and naturlaistic principles. The SOviet Union, in fact, had soemthign called Ideological correctness, in which all idea had to conform to the Ideology of IDialetic Mateiralism. Communism wa sinherantly Ahtistic, and htis cant be reaosnabley argued. But to argue that capitalism is an Ahtistic philosophy, even though no Capitolist writer links Capitolism with Ahtiesm, which includes an Atheist like Ayn Rand who was herslef a Capitolist, then you have no basis for the claim. Unless Capitolism explicirly denies the eixstance of a god, or unless you have to be Athistic in order to follwo Capitolism, it snot an Ahtitsic Philsophy. TO be a Soviet you had to be an Athiest. To be a Captilosy you simply have to say that the aquisition of profit form a free maket economy is the best way to run an economy. As to your claim of beign Born an Ahtisst and how all supernaturalclaism are islly, you seem to havenot rlaly studied the topic. Not everyoeneven sees God as Supernatural. And no oen is Born an Athist, this much is priven, btu veen if you whre, it means nothing ot what Im sayignhre Given that your Non-Astorlager post misses what we've been sayign who disagree, Ill repeat it. I nevr said Atheism ina nd of itself was a Relgiion, but no Ahtist is just an Ahtiest, and their Atheism is simply a componant of the overall worldivew they hodl to. The worldivewin totlal is a Religion. Its not that difficult. And this is why I cant stop usign the word Relgiion the way I do. Yoru Religious beelfis tell you no god exists, which is a positive assertion, even if you dney it. Your Religion also informs your views on everyhtign else,beign a naturlaist, for example. This sint limied ot just the proposition of a gods existance, btu everythgin else thta connects to that. Butthen, how edicsted can you be when you write htis... ."I know it spopular to think of God as a Placeholder like you did, as an explanaiton for those unknowns that SIcnece nwo tels us ar enatural phoenomenon, but consierign that an awful lot of THeology agrees that htose are Nstural Phoenomenon, and thta thelogy gos back much farthet than Sicnece tellign us this, your case is base don an ignorant preusmptin that God was created to epxlzin the unknown. You have no acutal proof that God was cfeate dby primitive tribes to explain earthwuakes and thunderstorms, do you? COnsiderign that Modern Sicnece emrged from Christianity, because CHristaisn thoguth that the Natual world ioperate don natural laws established by Gid, your case is moot. THe Early Christaisn didnt think God direclty caused thunderstorms until they discovered the truth. THeydidnt htink Gay se xin Egypt caused Earhtwuakes. They always beleived those thign shad natural epxlanations.. But the Irony is, by claimign Gid was just a palceholder invented by tribes to explain pheoneomenon, you move beyidn "Non-Theism" in that you siply se no evidence to makign a positive assertion thatGod doesnt actually exist, and was just invente dby Primitive man to epxlain the unknown. How is htis reconcilable to your ealrier claims of it jus being "I see no evidence"? You lcelary have a positive view htat God doest exist, and a positive viw to accoutn for why peepl beeliv ein GOd, which invaidates your other cliams that you dont have such. Incidentllay yournot bign very Sicnetific sicne youbeleive God was just a palceholder for htos htings, and say this as if its a proven fact. You dotn beeliv ein Sicnece, you be,eive in the Religion of Humanism, which you beleiv ein withotu any evidence at all. You just hide behidn Sicnece.. Its not a worldview ina nd of itself, as it foesnt tell you hwo the world works and yor relationship to? In fact, you now want to claim that there is a debate in Academia over rather or not Buddhism is a Religion. There isn't. Everyoen agrees that it is.Everyone? That's being a bit presumptuous. I've had a student studying religion chastise me for me calling Buddhism a religion. While I appreciate your input, it's really hard to read your posts when there are so many spelling errors. I'm having to put more effort into decoding you than what you write. Please get a spell checker, I understand that you are dyslexic but surely you can appreciate the value of proper communication and having a little red line highlighting mistakes surely could aid you towards that..Sure I do. Read Genesis, tell me that the creation story was anything more than a tribe who didn't understand trying to make sense of the world. It's not comforting for me to say that, it's what I've derived from reading holy books and talking to believers. God is a god of the gaps, if you think this is incorrect then demonstrate that God exists through experiment rather than as an explanation for the unknown. Come on, show that God is anything more than a placeholder for the absence of information. Surely you can demonstrate this. It's got to the stage now where I think this is as far as we can go. I'm not going to accept your definition for religion - it seems that you are calling religion a worldview and I don't even know why. Why do you need to say I have a religion? What does it do? Does it make any of my arguments any more or less valid? I think not, it's a label and nothing more. What interests me is whether you can demonstrate God's existence. If you can't then I have no reason for believing and will remain an atheist. If you can, then great. But please don't try to play a game of trip up the atheist, I'm not interesting in playing wordgames - especially when you are defining words for your own convenience. If you want to argue against any point I made, I have over 100 posts on here on various topics. If you can show me where my logic is wrong, then go ahead. But trying to play wordgames is not going to get you anywhere, especially when I have to decode your dyslexic output. The fact is, while you give definitions that are contrary to how I see the words used, then you aren't going to change my mind. Argue the core of the argument, don't get hung up on whether God can be supernatural or not. Don't get hung up on whether I have a religion or not. Argue the points, not the semantics. kEL-.except I didnt equicvocate Science with religion, you did. THink about it for a minuet. You have claimed here that Religion came into existance because we needed an explanation for natural phoenomenon. Humanity seeks ot have an undertanding of why things work, and Religion was created t fill the gap. If this is true, and if you are correct, then Science must be a Religion as it too exosts to fill in our understanding of hwo the world works. If all Religion existed for was to tell us how natural phoenomenon arose and how our world functioned, and if our old Religious beelifs have been superceded by Science, which offers us a better, mroe elaborate undersxtanding based on the Scientific Method, then Science has simply served as our new Religion, because it fulfills the same function that Religion serves. That is, if Religion relaly is all about tellign us why THunderstorms happen and why Earthquakes occur. In what way is Science not a Religion, under this claim? You may say it snto a Religion becuae its not theistic, but I'll remidn you that Theism is not a synonym for Religion, even though you seem to think it is. Religion is also not "Faith based" as Harris and Dakins misdefine the word. And accordign to you, its all abotu explainign our world. So, since Science explains our world, it is a Religion. Incidentlaly, my actual point was that you made a Religiosu statement about Religion when you claimed it was obsolete, and thenprocceeded to claim that we can know htings through sicnece. THis is ultimaltey a Philosophical ideology, and thus a Religious stat?I didn't take individuality away, nor do I even udnerstand how defining Religion as worldview acutlaly removed Individuality. Incidentllay, you haven't hsown how my deifnition of Relgiion Fails by sayign your worldview is shaped by many thigns and incliding Secular Ethics and politics and suchlike. Since Religion is actually just how we see the world aroudn us, and since you certianly have a philosophical framework form which you interpet the world, you are Religious. THis doens't impede your individuality, it merley means that your philosophical framework which defines the way you understand your world funcitons int he same way my Religion does to me, and thus I see no real difference in the Mechanism, andno need ot make a distinction. It doenst prevent us form seeign the world differnetly or possessing radiclaly different personalities, it just means mine isnt "Religion' while yours is "NonReligion". They ar eboth the same thing, as they are both Philosophical modles we use to understand the world aroudn us. In what way are they different outside of spacific teachings? Everyone? That's being a bit presumptuous. I've had a student studying religion chastise me for me calling Buddhism a religion.I feel sorry for said student then. It is a Religion. Sure I do. Read Genesis, tell me that the creation story was anything more than a tribe who didn't understand trying to make sense of the world.You mean, read the openign two chapters of Genesis. I doubt you mean read the ortiosn about Abraham. And, I dont get that at all from Genesis. Much less do I get it for the enture concept of God in total. Why shoudl I htink God was create dby primitive tribes as a catchall explanation for all phoenomenon? What actual proof do you have of that spacific claim? Last night th log woudlnt allow me to post. But I did want to say that Im not surprised that you dont understand why I'd see you as Religious. I wlltell you its not because I think it invalidates your arguments. In fact, since I am religious, how would you beong religious make your cliams less true. However, it wouldprevent you from seeing my claims as untrue because they are religious. But the reason is really more simple than this. Its because when you stop and htink about what Religion is, you realise its just what people htink of as true. I don't beleive in God in a mystical sense, but in an actual sense. I think God actually exists, just like rocks, or trees, or other people. When I think of the moral and ethicla onsiderations from Christianity, I think of them in terms of rpactical, livable morls and ethics based upon and applicable to dialy life. In this way I can see no difference between my approahc ot my religion and yoru approach to what you think is a nonreligious philosophy. I see no difference betwee how my religion functiosn in my life and how your nonreligious philosophy functins. I see, functionally, no difference between the two, and have to wonder why mine is religious and yirus not. I'd say yurs is also a religion, as it does the same htigns mien does, and is that really too hard to understand? Give it up Zarove. I'm not going to suddenly use your definition of religion, I'm not going to respond to straw-man arguments against my position and I'm not going to try to decode your badly-typed English. If you can't type without making spelling mistakes, and if you can't argue without using your own definitions, then don't bother at all. I won't respond. Kel, Im dyslexicx. That said, your an intellectual coward. MYou act like my deifnition of Religion is osme unique, private one, when in fact its from Sociology textbooks. The problem with you is that you want Religion to be a sperrate hting from Athiesm, to the poitn where no Atheist can be undertsood ot be Religious. You thus ignore anythign that contradicts your views. My "Straw man arugments" arne't straw men at all. I still say you cna't rellay tell me why a Religion is not the same thing as a worldview. You have decreed that a worldview is not a Religion, but you supplied no reason why its not. And, from where I sit, there is no difference. Why shoudl I see one set of beelifs about how the word works as a Religion, whislt another set of beelifs bout how the world worlks as not religion? WHat is the difference, exaclty? If my arugnenrs are all strawmen, then by all means tell us what make sosmehtign a religion, and why it precludes you, and other Atiests. I'll wait. Though I suspect you wont answr this, because its easier to sya my arugments are stramen and filled with logical fallacies and Im just plain wrong wihtitu offeirng any logical reaosn. After all, you want Relgiion to be SUperstituious myth repsnsible for all the bad in the world, and surly your not Religiosu because your reasonable and intellegent et all. ( And this is meant as an exageration.) I'm sorry Kel, but just declarign me wrong and logicllay flawed fdoesnt mean I am. This is the last time... When I use a word in a context, you respond to MY context - otherwise you build a strawman of your opponents arguments. By using your definition of religion against the usage in which I used the word, you misrepresented what I was saying. Is that so hard to comprehend? And as for wanting to blame religion for all the evil? Again you are misrepresenting my position and arguments. Hardly surprising after you tried to tie one criticism of religious belief (my usage of the word religion) to an emotional appeal by me. Again you don't argue by misrepresenting your opponent - all you are doing is creating a straw-man by doing so. The difference between one set of beliefs and another is the way they are transmitted. What we call religion is very much a social construct, the difference is that anyone can be an atheist for whatever reason (see non-astrologer) but to be a Christian it requires memetic transfer. If you think I'm wrong, show me someone who came to believe that Jesus is God without ever hearing the word of the gospels. I'm sorry Kel, but just declarign me wrong and logicllay flawed fdoesnt mean I am.Do you want me to go through all your posts one by one and show where you a) used your own definition of a word to call an argument with my definition absurd? b) where you made an unsupported assertion? c) where you tried to tie my arguments to a personal belief? I can do this if you want, show every little logical fallacy and stupid thing you said. If I do this though, you'll be no longer welcome to post on here. I understand you are dyslexic, but this medium is a text-based medium. It pays to be understood. If you were using broken english and being barely comprehensible, having english as your 2nd language is no excuse - it's all about communication. Anyway, your choice. either walk away now, or I spend a lot of time and effort debunking your nonsense which will mean I have no patience for you in the future. Kel, I id say I was exagerating. And, Also,for soemone who continualy blkmes me with misrepresenting you, you misrepresent me a lot. Ill repeat, I never said Atheism itself was a Religion. But Theism isnt a Religion either. What I actually argued was that Atheists don't lack religion. All Atheists have a Religion or anther. THis sint the samehtign as sayign "Ahtiesm is a Religion". However,if you are a Secular Humanist, Secular Humanism is your Religion. The fact that a Secular Humanist is also an Atheist doens't really mean he is not Religious. The fact that Christianity differs form Athiesm in that Ahtiems is simply lack of beleif in a god and Chistiantiy invovles a good deal more than just beleif about Gods eixstance proves that you dont really repsond to what Im saying.Im acutally saying that your not just an Atheist, and that yor Atheism contians doctriens just as compelxeas Christianity sayign Jesus is God or the Trinity. So to repeat, ascmuch as Atheism itself is not a Religion, atheists are not non-religious. You are Religious, Kel, because you accept a set of ideas about how the world works. This includes Atheism, but Athiesmis just one idea,not a set. By the way,Memes themselves are a Religiosu concept,even in your definition fo Religion. Its not like they are proven to exist.In fact,they exist only in the imaginations of Richard Dawkisn and his followrs. Memetic Transfer is a fantasy, really,its just not how Informaiton really transfers. Memes themselves dont really exist. oH AND FOR THE FIRTS TIME, i REMOVED A POST.IT WAS A REPEAT OF THE ONE BELOW. noneed for two. "You are Religious, Kel, because you accept a set of ideas about how the world works. This includes Atheism, but Athiesmis just one idea,not a set." I tentatively accept ideas about how the world works. And I think you are missing the point. Even if I'm religious under your definition, it doesn't matter one little bit to my arguments. I'm not trying to paint all religion as evil, nor am I trying to point to religion as the only evil in the world. If you can find anywhere on my blog where I even suggest such a thing (there are over 100 posts to choose from) then I'll eat my hat. You are the first person ever to get upset at my use of the word religion - after talking to many theists and many atheists, you are the first one to complain. Why? It's so irrelevant. Worse still is that you are trying to get me to play semantic word-games where you are trying to get me to swap my definitions whereby the meaning is lost. Like saying "some theists think God is natural so supernaturalism doesn't apply." Of course they do, I wasn't denying that. But you were pushing me to use another definition for whatever reason. I'll say this as clear as fucking possible. No idea should be sacred, every idea should come under scrutiny. Organised religion has a way of protecting itself from criticism which means that when bad things happen within, people are going to be outspoken. Do I want organised religion eradicated? No. I would like to see extremism minimised and that the moderates do a better job marginalising the fundamentalists. I would like to see dogma shunned where it conflicts with secular reasoning, that creationism would go away - it has been demonstrated to be wrong time and time again. But I don't want to take religion as the source of evil, and speaking out on religion doesn't mean I want to eradicate it. As for memes, they are an analogy - a way of expressing the transfer of cultural information as opposed to genetic information. We are not the only species to pass down information culturally, yet this cultural information is vital for our survival. Again, I wouldn't say things like: In fact,they exist only in the imaginations of Richard Dawkisn and his followrs.Why do that again? Why do you argue this way? Kel, Im not upset, Im making a point. By defining this as a debate between Religious people and Atheists, it creates a false picture of hje talks. We no longer are talkign abotu sdoacific ideas, we are talking abitu "Religion' and Nonreligiosu peolel dont want or need religion so will just ignroe it merrily... its not abotu scrutiny of ideas, its abotu setitng up batle lines and pintign pretty mental pictures. After all, I've een Atheists use not only "Non-Religious" as a synonym for themselves, but Freethinker and Rationalist as well. Being that Im a Rationalist, woudln't it be rather poitnless to have a debate agaisnt the value of intrinsic reason with me? But many Athiests think Religion and reaosn cannto go togather because f how they udnerstand, not Rekigion, but Athiesm. What you fail to udnerstand is that we are, in the end, relaly just talkign abitu ideas and sets of beleifs and philosophicla modles, and they arne't fundamentlaly different. Your "Nonreligious" beleifs are exacltyt he same as "Religious" ones. In fact, they are Religion in how Religion is actually understood sociologiclaly. As to your claim that Orignised Relgiions sheild themselves from Critisism and try to prevent quesitoning, and the usual tlak of the need ot let all ideas be callenged, this is just not true. For one thing, Orginised Religions acutlaly do allow critiissm of their teachings and beleifs by and large. IE, the Presbyterian Church has acadmeics routinely chllenge the general synod based on their intepretation of either the bIble or current events, and the same canbe said of hte United Methodist Church. The United Church of Christ allows comlltye open dialouge aboutthese matters as well. The claim may be part of the hwole iamge of why Religion is wrong an why we need mroe Atheism, but its not an accurate picture of what happens in Orginised Religions at all. Worse, the New Athiests, like Dawkins and Harrias, really don't want us to examien all idea sunder scrutiny. They want us ot be Hypersceptical of Religiosu beleifs, and to embrace their spacific brand of Atheism, which goes well beyidn lakc of beelif in a god and includes an enture naturalistic worldview roote din Humanist assumptions. Humanist asusmptions, I may add, tat they not only never quesiton but refuse to allow others to question. They wont even allow us to wuestion rather or not their vieews consittute a Relgiion, becaus htey want th term to be used on everyoen elses beleifs to shwo them as evil. I never said you personally thought all Relgiions where evil, though, and your now misrepresentign me. However, I do think the idea htta we need ot allow all ideas ot be Scrutinised is a good one, but so long as we make these arificial divisions, we wont. How often do you scrutinise your "Nonreligious" beleifs anyway, Kel? By the wya, I know the excuse that Memes ar ejust allegories, but Dawkisn seldom treats them as such, nor do his followrs. That canard is broguth about mainly in order to sheild his idea form Critisism, because he knows it wont stand up.

Therapy, Ethics, Malpractice, Forensics, Critical Thinking (and a few other topics) This psychology site was designed to be fully accessible for people with disabilities (see below) and user-friendly to all visitors. For convenience, any of the major sections -- as well as the 3 other web sites (see "Ken's Other Sites") -- can be accessed immediately by using the menu that runs along the left side of each page. The site provides free access to a variety of articles from journals such as American Psychologist (currently 10 from this source); British Medical Journal; Journal of Consulting & Clinical Psychology; Clinical Psychology: Science & Practice; Psychology, Public Policy, & Law; Annual Review of Clinical Psychology; American Journal of Psychiatry; International Journal of Law & Psychiatry; and Professional Psychology: Research & Practice -- as well as the complete contents of a book (Children, Ethics, & the Law). It also provides other free resources such as: - links to psychology licensing laws and continuing education regulations in Canada and the United States along with contact information and related resources for each psychology licensing board in the two countries - over 100 ethics codes and practice standards for assessment, therapy, counseling, & forensic practice developed by professional organizations (e.g., of psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, marriage & family counselors) - therapists' guide to preparing a professional will - informed consent: professional standards, sample forms, & key references - a malingering assessment research update providing cites & summaries for malingering assessment studies that have been published in peer-reviewed journals from January, 2001, to the present - 22 kinds of logical fallacies in psychology - resources for therapists who are stalked, threatened, or attacked by patients - ethics in psychology: 7 essentials - recent Research on Assessing Risk of Violence: Studies Published in 2012 & 2013 - over 100 online resources for torture victims, refugees, detainees, & asylum seekers - links to resources on boundary issues in psychotherapy: widely-used guides, stats, trends, research, & resources - links to resources for military personnel, their families, & those who provide services to them - over 300 cites of articles, books, and chapters on the controversy over psychologists and physicians participating in detainee interrogations - 8 bogus apologies: ethics, critical thinking, & language - 21 cognitive strategies to justify any unethical behavior - resources for finding health insurance and free or low cost medications (listed under "medication help") - 7 common fallacies and pitfalls that plague psychological testing and assessment - forensic assessment checklist - sample agreement between expert witness & attorney The journal articles and other resources are in this site's 27 major sections: assessment; psychology professor Bev Greene's images of Ground Zero; boundaries in therapy; psychological interventions for people with cancer resources; caregiver resources; Carolyn Payton's bio & a quote about ethics; detainee interrogations, physicians, & psychologists; Psychologists & detainee interrogations; end-of-life resources; over 100 ethics codes & practice guidelines for therapy, counseling, assessment, & forensics; articles on ethics & malpractice; fallacies & pitfalls in psychology; forgiveness resources; psychology laws & licensing boards; falacies & pitfalls in psychology; informed consent; psychology laws & licensing boards in Canada & the United States; resources for U.S. troops, veterans, their families, & those who provide services to them; resources for finding affordable health insurance and medications; memory & abuse; mindfulness resources for clinical training & practice; sexual issues in therapy, counseling, teaching, & the lives of psychologists; resources for therapists who are stalked, threatened, or attacked by patient; suicide; the therapist as a person; resources for torture survivors, refugees, and asylum-seekers; and resources for psychologists, physicians, & other health care professionals wanting to volunteer their services to people in need. You'll also find various pages with more information about the material on the site (e.g., please see copyright & disclaimers). Some of the material that was originally on this site has been moved to 3 other sites: 1) Please follow this link to the Accessibility & Disability web site, which provides information and resources on 10 topics: Articles on Accessibility in Psychology Graduate Education & Practice; the American Psychological Association Disability Mentoring Program; Accessibility Laws & Regulations; Court Adjudications, Formal Settlements, and Letters of Agreement: Disability, Accessibility, and Universities; Articles on Accessibility in Higher Education or Professional Licensing; Court Adjudications; Resources for Accessible Books & Articles; Assistive Technology for Computers & Printed Material; Articles on Web Accessibility, the ADA, & Civil Rights; Web Accessibility Verifiers; & 7 Easy Steps Toward Web Site Accessibility. 2) Please follow this link to the site providing information and resources for companion, assistance, and special-needs animals; that site's major topics are: animal emergencies, poison, & first aid; where to look for adoptions, fostering, & placements for companion animals; animal-friendly travel & lodging; finding missing animals; pet bereavement; companion animals and people with HIV or AIDS; health & behavior of companion animals; animal protection & welfare; where to look for special-needs animal adoptions, fostering, & placements; health & behavior information & resources for special-needs animals; equipment for special-needs animals; therapy, guide, hearing, and other assistance animals. 3) Please follow this link to the site providing photographs and stories of a family of special-needs cats & dogs . As mentioned earlier,. Although the navigation bar, which appears along the left side of each page, provides access to each section of this web site, below is a sample of some of the full-text articles and related materials available on this site. Full-text Articles Published research and other works on the Therapist As Person: Therapists as Patients, as Abuse Survivors, and as People who Experience Fear, Anger, and Hatred Therapists as Patients: A National Survey of Psychologists' Experiences, Problems, and Beliefs [Professional Psychology] Therapists' Anger, Hate, Fear, and Sexual Feelings: National Survey of Therapist Responses, Client Characteristics, Critical Events, Formal Complaints, and Training [Professional Psychology] National Survey of Psychologists' Sexual and Physical Abuse History and Their Evaluation of Training and Competence in These Areas [Professional Psychology] The Experience of 'Forgetting' Childhood Abuse: A National Survey of Psychologists [Journal of Consulting & Clinical Psychology] Discussing Death With Children [U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, Office of Child Development, Children's Bureau] Therapist's Guide To Preparing a Professional Will [American Psychological Association] Clinical Practice Strategies Outside The Realm Of Managed Care [annual meeting of the American Psychological Association] Boundary Issues in Psychotherapy and Counseling Dual Relationships: Trends, Stats, Guides, & Resources. A Practical Approach to Boundaries in Psychotherapy: Making Decisions, Bypassing Blunders, and Mending Fences. Nonsexual Multiple Relationships & Boundaries in Psychotherapy. An Essential Article on Boundaries: How The Field Began To Focus on Distinguishing Boundary Crossings (Helpful or Neutral) from Boundary Violations (Harmful) in the Early 1990s. Study Calling for Changes in the APA Ethics Code regarding Dual Relationships, Multiple Relationships, & Boundary Decisions [American Psychologist] Dual Relationships Between Therapist and Client: A National Study of Psychologists, Psychiatrists, and Social Workers [Professional Psychology] The Concept of Boundaries in Clinical Practice: Theoretical and Risk-Management Dimensions [American Journal of Psychiatry] Avoiding Exploitive Dual Relationships: A Decision-making Model [Psychotherapy] Ethical Decision-making and Dual Relationships [Jeffrey Younggren] Nonsexual Multiple Relationships: A Practical Decision-Making Model For Clinicians [Janet L. Sonne] Misuses and Misunderstandings of Boundary Theory in Clinical and Regulatory Settings [American Journal of Psychiatry] Published Research and Other Works on Ethical & Legal (e.g., Malpractice) Dilemmas of Therapists, Counselors, & Professors Ethics for Psychologists: 7 Essentials [excerpt from Ethics in Psychotherapy & Counseling, 3rd Edition] Contrasting Ethical Policies of Physicians & Psychologists Concerning Detainee Interrogations [British Medical Journal] Psychologists Abandon the Nuremberg Ethic: Concerns for Detainee Interrogations [International Journal of Law & Psychiatry] Steps in Ethical Decision-Making [excerpt from Ethics in Psychotherapy & Counseling, 3rd Edition] 21 Cognitive Strategies To Justify Any Unethical Behavior [excerpt from What Therapists Don't Talk About and Why: Understanding Taboos That Hurt Us and Our Clients] Developing & Practicing Ethics [chapter in The Portable Mentor: Expert Guide to a Successful Career in Psychology] Ethics of Practice: The Beliefs and Behaviors of Psychologists as Therapists [American Psychologist] Ethics of Teaching: Beliefs and Behaviors of Psychologists as Educators [American Psychologist] Ethical Dilemmas Encountered by Members of the American Psychological Association [American Psychologist] Informed Consent: Sample Forms, Standards, Guildelines, & References; 8 Bogus Apologies: Ethics, Critical Thinking, & Language When Laws and Values Conflict: A Dilemma for Psychologists [American Psychologist] Malpractice & Licensing Pitfalls for Therapists: A Defense Attorney's List [Innovations in Clinical Practice] Disability, Accessibility, & Ethics in Psychology: 3 Barriers [Ethics & Behavior] HIPAA & Forensic Practice [American Psychology Law Society News, American Psychological Association Division 41] Identifying and Implementing Ethical Standards for Primary Prevention [Journal of Prevention & Intervention in the Community] On Violating Ethical Standards: 20 Easy Steps [Ethics in Psychotherapy & Counseling] When The Therapist Doesn't Know What To Do: Some Steps That May Help [American Psychological Association] Ethical and Malpractice Issues in Hospital Practice [American Psychologist] The Ethics of Research Involving Memories of Trauma [General Hospital Psychiatry] AIDS & HIV Infection Update: New Research, Ethical Responsibilities, Evolving Legal Frameworks, and Useful Resources [Innovations in Clinical Practice] Psychologists' Use of E-mail with Clients: Some Ethical Considerations [Ohio Psychologist] Children, Ethics, & the Law [full text of a book originally published by University of Nebraska Press] Published Research and Other Works on Therapists' Sexual Attraction to Patients, Therapist-Patient Sex, Professor-Student Sex, and Sexual Dilemmas in Therapy & Counseling Sexual Intimacy in Psychology Training: Results and Implications of a National Survey [American Psychologist] Sexual Attraction to Clients: The Human Therapist and the (Sometimes) Inhuman Training System [American Psychologist] Sex Between Therapists and Clients [Academic Press] Prior Therapist-patient Sexual Involvement Among Patients Seen by Psychologists [Psychotherapy] Therapist-Patient Sexual Intimacy Involving Children and Adolescents [American Psychologist] Therapist-patient Sex as Sex Abuse: Six Scientific, Professional, and Practical Dilemmas in Addressing Victimization and Rehabilitation [Professional Psychology] Testing & Assessment Deposition and Cross-examination Questions on Psychological Tests & Psychometrics [American Psychological Association] Responsibilities in Providing Psychological Test Feedback to Clients [Psychological Assessment] Fallacies & Pitfalls in Psychological Assessment: 7 Examples HIPAA & Forensic Practice [American Psychology Law Society News, American Psychological Association Division 41] MMPI-A in Forensic Practice [Oxford University Press] Forensic Assessment Checklist [American Psychological Association] Pearson Assessments HIPAA Regulations FAQ [Pearon Assessments] Torture Psychological Assessment of Torture Survivors: Essential Steps, Avoidable Errors, and Helpful Resource [International Journal of Law & Psychiatry] Responding to Victims of Torture: Clinical Issues, Professional Responsibilities, and Useful Resources [Professional Psychology] Fallacies & Pitfalls in Psychology Logical Fallacies in Psychology: 22 Types Fallacies & Pitfalls in Psychological Assessment: 7 Examples 21 Cognitive Strategies To Justify Any Unethical Behavior 8 Bogus Apologies: Ethics, Critical Thinking, & Language Detainee Interrogations, Psychologists, & Other Health Care Professionals "Are the American Psychological Association’s Detainee Interrogation Policies Ethical and Effective? Key Claims, Documents, and Results" [Zeitschrift für Psychologie / Journal of Psychology] "Psychologists and Detainee Interrogations: Key Decisions, Opportunities Lost, and Lessons Learned" [Annual Review of Clinical Psychology] "Contrasting Ethical Policies of Physicians & Psychologists Concerning Detainee Interrogations" [British Medical Journal] "Psychologists Abandon the Nuremberg Ethic: Concerns for Detainee Interrogations"[International Journal of Law and Psychiatry] "American Psychological Association's Post-9-11Ethics for Detainee Interrogations" [Psychiatric Times] 300+ Published Articles on Psychologists' & Physicians' Involvement in Detainee Interrogations Suicide Responding To Suicidal Risk Memory & Abuse: The Recovered Memory Controversy Pseudoscience, Cross-examination, and Scientific Evidence in the Recovered Memory Controversy [Psychology, Public Policy, and Law] Memory, Abuse, and Science: Questioning Claims about the False Memory Syndrome Epidemic--Award address for the American Psychological Association's Award for Distinguished Contributions to Public Service [American Psychologist] Science As Careful Questioning: Are Claims of a False Memory Syndrome Epidemic Based on Empirical Evidence? [American Psychologist] What Psychologists Better Know About Recovered Memories: Research, Lawsuits, and the Pivotal Experiment [Clinical Psychology: Science & Practice] The Facade of Scientific Documentation: A Case Study of Richard Ofshe's Analysis of the Paul Ingram Case [Psychology, Public Policy & Law] The Therapeutic Relationship As The Foundation for Treatment with Adult Survivors of Sexual Abuse [Psychotherapy] Sample Agreement Sample Agreement Between Expert Witness & Attorney by Kenneth S. Pope, Ph.D., ABPP, James N. Butcher, Ph.D., & Joyce Seelen, J.D. [American Psychological Association] Books Ethics in Psychotherapy and Counseling: A Practical Guide, (Fourth Edition, 2011) by Kenneth S. Pope, Ph.D., ABPP & Melba J. T. Vasquez, Ph.D., ABPP Publisher: Jossey-Bass, an imprint of Wiley). "A stunningly good book.... If there is only one book you buy on ethics, this is the one." --David H. Barlow, Ph.D, ABPP; Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry, Boston University What Therapists Don't Talk About and Why: Taboos That Hurt Us and Our Clients by Kenneth S. Pope, Ph.D., ABPP, Janet L. Sonne, Ph.D., and Beverly Greene, PhD., ABPP Publisher: American Psychological Association ." Thomas G. Gutheil, M.D. Professor of Psychiatry Harvard University How To Survive and Thrive as a Therapist: Information, Ideas, & Resources for Psychologists by Kenneth S. Pope, Ph.D., ABPP & Melba J. T. Vasquez, Ph.D., ABPP Publisher: American Psychological Association "This comprehensive practical guidebook is a must for all new and seasoned clinicians. From attorneys to ethics, from billing to possible errors in logic--it is all here. A remarkable compendium. Kudos to Pope and Vasquez!" --Donald Meichenbaum, PhD, University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada The MMPI, MMPI-2, and MMPI-A in Court: A Practical Guide for Expert Witnesses and Attorneys (3nd Edition) by Kenneth S. Pope, Ph.D., ABPP, James N. Butcher, Ph.D., and Joyce Seelen, Esq., Publisher: American Psychological Association "A must for every trial lawyer's library." -- Patricia C. Bobb, Esq., Board of Governors, Association of Trial Lawyers of America Sexual Feelings In Psychotherapy:Explorations for Therapists and Therapists-in-Training by Kenneth S. Pope, Ph.D., ABPP, Janet Sonne, Ph.D. & Jean Holroyd, Ph.D. Publisher: Sexual Involvement With Therapists: Patient Assessment, Subsequent Therapy, Forensics by by Kenneth S. Pope, Ph.D., ABPP. Publisher: American Psychological Association "A landmark contribution. The research, forms, and lists of cross-examination questions will be invaluable to subsequent therapists who appear in court. This unique resource is essential reading for expert witnesses and trial attorneys." -- Nancy Adel, Esq., Partner, Law Firm of Adel & Pollack Sexual Intimacy Between Therapists and Patients by Kenneth S. Pope & Jacqueline Bouhoutsos "A thoroughly unique, impressively comprehensive, and long-awaited contribution. A storehouse of information. Plaintiff and defense lawyers and expert witnesses would be well advised to be aware of its contents." --Jay Ziskin, Ph.D., LL.B. Past President, American Psychology-Law Law and Mental Health Professionals: California by Brandt Caudill & Kenneth S. Pope, Publisher: American Psychological Association Abstracts National Survey of Social Workers' Sexual Attraction to their Clients: Results, Implications, and Comparison to Psychologists [Ethics & Behavior] Licensing Disciplinary Actions for Psychologists Who Have Been Sexually Involved with a Client [Professional Psychology] The Ethics of Counseling: A National Survey of Certified Counselors [Journal of Counseling & Development] Are 25% of Clinicians Using Potentially Risky Therapeutic Practices? A Review of the Logic and Methodology of the Poole, Lindsay et al. Study [Journal of Psychiatry & Law] Therapists' Sexual Feelings and Behaviors: Research, Trends, and Quandaries. [John Wiley and Sons] A Community Psychology of Ethics [American Journal of Community Psychology] AIDS and HIV Infection Update: New Research, Ethical Responsibilities, Evolving Legal Frameworks, and Published Resources [Innovations in Clinical Practice] Sexual Behavior Between Clinical Supervisors and Trainees: Implications for Professional Standards [Professional Psychology] Seven Issues in Conducting Forensic Assessments: Ethical Responsibilities in Light of New Standards and New Tests [Ethics & Behavior] Therapist-patient Sexual Involvement: A Review of the Research [Clinical Psychology Review] Fee assessment and outpatient psychotherapy [Journal of Consulting & Clinical Psychology] Other Resources - Resources for caregivers: websites, books, & articles - Forgiveness Resources for Therapists & Counselors - Resources for Those Looking for Nursing Homes or Hospices, Or Who Are Facing End-of-Life Challenges - Resources for People with Cancer (Breast Cancer; Prostate Cancer; Lung Cancer; Colorectal Cancer; Exercise & Cancer; Psychological Aspects of Cancer) - Recent Research on Assessing Risk of Violence: Studies Published in 2012 & 2013 - Links to resources for military personnel, their families, & those who provide serves to them - Links to over 100 resources for refugees, torture victims, & asylum seekers - Links to Psychological Interventions for People with Cancer: Therapy & Self-Help - Mindfulness Resources for Clinical Training & Practice - Links to resources for Informed Consent in Psychotherapy & Counseling: Forms, Standards & Guidelines, & References - Links to resources for Dual Relationships, Multiple Relationships, & Boundary Decisions - Resources for Therapists Who Are Stalked, Threatened, or Attacked by Patients Thanks for Visiting! 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Best pop band, ever? Who would you say? First, some guidelines: - The Beatles are a given, so leave them out. - It has to be a band with multiple hits. If you want to list your personal favorite that isn’t actually popular (as in, underrated, or enormously influential and critically acclaimed, but never had any hits), go ahead, but also include a band who is actually popular. - No solo artists. So who do you think? Jackson Five? Fleetwood Mac? The Police? (Yeah, yeah, I’m not including a definition of pop. Arguing over it in the comments is half the fun.) Posted on May 6, 2008, in Music. Bookmark the permalink. 99 Comments. The thing that puts Fleetwood Mac in the running for me is they have three different singers that all had hits. And each of them were such great song writers. Rumors is as close to a perfect album as you can get, I think. But the Police…I don’t think they ever wrote a bad song. You listen to their box set and every single song is great. At their peak they were the hugest band in the world. This is a toughie now that you’ve eliminated the obvious answer. U2 or REM, I’d say. They are definitely overlapping into the pop world. Fleetwood Mac is a good call, but next people will be mentioning Eurythmics, and we can’t have that. The Pretenders? Lloyd Cole and the Commotions? OK, U2 might take it. Yeah, I’d have to say U2. Even if you had asked for best R&B band, I still would have picked U2. I’m consistent that way… U2?? Seriously?? They’re so much more popular State-side of the Atlantic than here. I don’t get why people like them so much. I like a couple of their songs, but mostly I think they’re overrated. Them’s fightin’ words, Rebecca… U2 has been consistently amazing (recorded and live) for over 3 decades. Their lyrics blow me away; their musicality is flawless. Not only do they have the universal appeal, but they connect on an intimate level. They are just fabulous. well, they’re not THAT good. But best pop band? Sure. Pop band not the Beatles? Rolling Stones, The Supremes, Beach Boys, the Who, Creedence Clearwater Revival, the Band, the Jam, the Smiths, Van Halen. U2 is indeed overrated. First off, “Don’t Stand so Close to Me ’86″ is quite possibly one of the worst songs of the 80s. Best pop band ever? REM. Greg, someone’s got to provide fodder for the U2-haters! But of the ones you list, I’d say only The BB, Supremes and CCR count truly as ‘pop’. Squeeze? (Weren’t they billed a The Beatles Lite or something?) I wouldn’t call CCR pop at all. CW, there are soooooooo many worse songs from the 80s. In fact there may be more worse songs from the 80s than all worst songs of the other decades, combined. My vote is for the Police. The thing that puts Fleetwood Mac in the running for me is they have three different singers that all had hits. And each of them were such great song writers. You would be referring here to Lindsey Buckingham, Christine McVie, and Peter Green, I hope. (If only I could invoke Danny Kirwan, whose songs, alas, were never hits). Anyway, I vote for the Mac minus Stevie Nicks. When I think of “pop” I tend to think of infectious hooks and sublime melody, so it rules out a lot of the bands I love. I’d vote for Crowded House. New Order has a strong “pop” record, in my opinon, starting with Ceremony on down to their latest offering a year or so ago. Though I’m not a big fan, I’d even give pop bands like Erasure and Pet Shop Boys some love. Both bands have a long list of sublime melodys and catchy hooks. Also, though shortlived (only two albums), the Queen/Beatles-influenced band Jellyfish were pop geniuses. So if a band becomes immensly popular, doesn’t it automatically become overrated (way too many people liking the same band for those with more eclectic/eccentric tastes). Anyway…I just live for the moment when I turn on “Clocks” and my three-year-old exclaims “I just love that song!” so I think Coldplay should be listed. Oh and how could you all forget ABBA? Yes, ABBA deserves consideration. As do the Bee Gees. Coldplay too, at least for the 00′s. Both my young boys love “Clocks” too. Hilarious. New Order wasn’t popular enough. Ditto Crowded House, Erasure, or Pet Shop Boys. I don’t think Coldplay should even register, honestly. Good Brit pop, yeah, but best of all time? Didn’t Stevie write “Landslide”? And “Edge of Seventeen”? Both awesome, awesome songs. EmWJ: I’m looking for bands that weren’t overrated in their popularity. Hard to come by, I know. Speaking of “Clocks,” does the mix with the Buena Vista Social Club get any airplay outside of DC? I like it far better than the original. I’ll give Stevie “Edge of Seventeen,” but she did not record it with Fleetwood Mac so it doesn’t change my vote. Jeeze. I’m not sure how to distinguish pop from non-pop. Are Pink Floyd or Led Zepplin pop? They both had pop hits. U2 definitely is although it’s not solely pop. I think with Floyd there’s enough airplay on radio to count so that would be my choice. I’d put them above the Beatles for sure. Of course I’d put Elvis above the Beatles but he’s a solo act. That Buena Vista Social Club cover of clocks just made me happy. Another cover that I love is the String Quartet Tribute to Clocks. And just in case somebody hasn’t heard of the String Quartet Tribute, check them out to see if they have covered your fave pop/rock/other band…awesome sounds! Ok, if we: 1. Exclude the Beatles and all solo acts (sorry Elvis and Mariah); 2. Give “pop” it’s broadest possible definition; and 3. If “greatest” means: number of hit songs and albums x influence x longevity then there’s only one possible answer: U2 It’s not even close. Overrated? I think not. Spin Doctors Rebecca, I feel the same way about U2- meh. Always have. Pop? I mean, don’t the boy bands make pop? What about Genesis? Bee-Gee’s? Rolling Stones?? U2 is consistently very good, over a period of decades. In the age of radio they were played on rock, alternative and pop stations. They deserve to be mentioned as a serious candidate. Besides the fact that they make great music, one has to consider that they still haven’t split up or had a band member die yet. Considering rock history, their longevity is really amazing. The other interesting thing with U2 is that they’ve had the same lineup for so long. One would have expected at least one band member to walk off at some point or one would have expected Bono to try out a solo career. Setting aside the Beatles, I’m not sure if anyone else can really compete with U2. I’ve been a major fan of the Smiths and Pink Floyd – but in regards to the specific question Susan is asking, I don’t think either of these bands comes close to U2. My odd-ball candidate for a a great pop star that could have been: Edie Brickell. Instead she married Paul Simon and had three kids. I think she probably made the right choice – but I love some of her songs and I think she could have been huge if she had made music her life purpose. Pink Floyd aren’t pop, are they? They’re acid rock. Susan, I would have said the same thing. Oddly, I once heard David Gilmour in an interview referring to his music as “pop music.” Wasn’t sure what to make of that – but I decided I wouldn’t argue with him on the subject. No Beatles? Then it must be Oasis! [Bull Moose grins slyly, like Kevin on "The Office"] #20, popular shmopular. Yes, popularity should be a factor, but if it were the overriding factor we could just give the award to U2 and go home. I don’t know, to me the more interesting question is “Who should have been the Best Pop Band Ever?” or who is overlooked as the best pop band ever. Also, it is ironic to me that U2′s most “pop” album, at least according to the band — 1997′s Pop — was one of it’s biggest commercial and critical flops. And why no love for Journey? Susan (#30), that just highlights the problematic nature of ‘pop.’ To me ‘pop’ entails popular with numerous top 20 hits on Billboard. It’s hard to say Pink Floyd isn’t pop by that standard. I mean I know what I disparagingly call pop music. Sort of the Christina Aguilaras, Britney Spears, or the like. But I’d have a hard time putting U2 or many other bands mentioned in that category. One of the funniest things about the music industry is the changing and elastic definitions of terms like pop, rock, alternative, etc. There is a band I like that I have seen placed in all of these gengres at least once by various retailers: rock, punk, pop, hard-rock, alternative, pop/punk and emo. I’ll let you guess, if you care to, which band it is. See here for Wikipedia’s list of genres under the category of “Rock.” It’s interesting to note that the main genres under Rock are: Alternative rock Blues rock C-Rock Dark cabaret Desert rock Garage Rock Glam rock Gothic rock Hard rock Heavy metal Indie Industrial rock J-Rock New Wave Pop Progressive rock Psychedelic rock Punk rock Rock and roll Southern rock Surf rock And everything else is a sub-genre of one of these main genres. So, according to this list, Pop is a subgenre of Rock, rather than the other way around, as is Rock and roll. Don’t know if I agree with that list, but there you go. I won’t argue The Police’s influence and critical acclaim, but are we overselling their popularity? Without question, during the Synchronicity album they were the #1 band (in terms of popularity) in the world from the standpoint of album sales, concert tickets, and general buzz. Prior to that they were a solid band with a respectable level of popularity, but they weren’t a mega-band. But how many bands can say that? That at a given point in time they were the biggest band in the world? Any of the following bands: Van Halen, Journey, Def Lepard, Hootie, Oasis, Coldplay, even the Backstreet Boys. Because The Police went out on top, we tend to project their popularity backwards and forwards. In comparison, U2 reached Synchronicity-level zeniths at least three times — Joshua Tree, Achtung Baby, and All That You Can’t Leave Behind — and maybe four. I love The Police, but they didn’t achieve crossover mega success until their last album. The band has acknowledged that the name of that album was not accurate. It was a rock album, although influenced by electronica. Matt, I’ve got all kinds of love for Journey, Styx, REO Speedwagon, Foreigner, Kansas Boston and Rush. But none of them come close to U2 in terms of the combined factors of widespread popularity, influence and longevity. Funny, I’m listening to U2 right now (a b-side “Where did it all go Wrong” from Even Better than the Real Thing IIRC) MCQ, I think the failure of Pop was that they needed about one more month in the studio. There are some great tracks on that album. The problem was that they wanted that media-savvy self-conscious irony that they’d started by Achtung Baby. But it had wore out its welcome. And, say what you will, but both Discoteque and the Popmart tour were very pop-focused. (Starting with the song Pop Music that they covered) I agree that most of the other tracks were very unlike Discoteque though. And some when done later in stripped down acoustic versions were amazing. Matt, wasn’t Ghost in the Machine just as big? I agree though that the Police were very much part of the late 70′s counter-pop/disco movement. We remember them because they remained great more than their success at the time. “I’d vote for Crowded House.” Well, that’s definitely where my vote would be as well. Esp. if we realize that the world is much bigger than the U.S.! If we go by best selling no one comes close to the Beatles. Next up (outside of single acts) is AC/DC, ABBA, Bee Gees, Led Zepplin, Pink Floyd, Queen, and the Rolling Stones. The Police are way down the list. Clark: I understand the ironic media commentary they were going for with Pop, but I think people just didn’t get it. It fell flat. It was too clever by half. Go back and listen to Discotheque. (OMG, I forgot how bad that video was—-ok maybe don’t click that link). I think Pop is a low point in an otherwise stellar catalogue of amazing, even groundbreaking music. But regardless of what you think of Discotheque, It’s a rock song. Listen to Edge’s guitar. There’s nothing poppy or disco-y about it. The album’s name was intended ironically, not as an accurate label of its contents. BTW, I was at the PopMart concert in SLC and they did not cover Pop Muzik, (the song by M). They covered the Monkees “Daydream Believer.” They played a recording of a dance remix of Pop Muzik during the introduction to each concert. That remix was later released as the “Pop Mart Mix” on U2′s “Last Night on Earth” single, with new vocals by Bono. I think your point was that they were trying to make a pop record or create a pop performance with that tour. I disagree. I think they were using a rock album to make a statement about pop music that was largely misunderstood or ignored. Clark, I wouldn’t take that list as gospel, but even if we accept its accuracy (for the moment), it shows that the Beatles are the only “band” to have sold more than 500 million records. But the bands you listed are shown as equal to each other in sales because they are listed alphabetically in the 200-500 million category. They could be very close to the Beatles, but just below the 500 million record cutoff; we just don’t know from this chart. The next box is the 100-200,000 category and its equally ranked bands are: Aerosmith, Backstreet Boys, Beach Boys, Black Sabbath, Bon Jovi, Carpenters, Chicago, Deep Purple, Eagles, ELO, Fleetwood Mac, Genesis, Iron Maiden, KC and the Sunshine Band, Petshop Boys, U2 and The Who. Those two lists of bands actually make a pretty good list to consider as contenders for greatest pop band ever. I still think U2 is the best on that list, but you could make a case for any of those bands (with the possible exception of the Backstreet Boys and Deep Purple). Here’s my top 5: 1. The Kinks. I know people want to call them a rock band, but their best stuff has a pop riff that makes it so good. Think David Watts as they do it, not as The Jam do it. 2. The Temptations. OK, you might argue R&B isn’t pop, but you’re wrong. Great range, great songs. 3. The Beach Boys. Underrated as a novelty group, totally influential, so evocative. 4. ABBA. Groovy, singable, dreamy. 5. The Go-Gos. Great voices, sweet hooks, no pretension. ABBA Just for context, I really dislike both The Police and U2. I do like Achtung Baby, though. I like nothing by The Police. Pop was far, far better than the preceding album, Zooropa which really only had one memorable song (Stay). Pop has some good stuff, “Please”, “If God Would Send His Angels”, “Gone”, “Do You Feel Loved”. Aha. Brian V likes Achtung Baby. My work here is done. (begin snarkiness) No mention of Air Supply? (snarkiness over) I’m actually suprised that Bon Jovi (meaning the band, not the man) hasn’t gotten more discussion. Yeah, he’s trailed off a bit, but the man was a huge influence in the 80′s and continued onward (though quality is something that is lacking). Aerosmith is another that I’m suprised hasn’t gotten mentioned. I guess it does matter what your definition of “pop” is. I don’t want to create a firestorm, but I’ve never liked U2. Ever. Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby included. I did like “The Wanderer” with Johnny Cash, but that was about it. Is there some U2 101 course I could take to understand this following? The Carpenters ABBA Duran Duran (you know–of a certain era) I almost feel like U2 should be exempted like The Beatles. I think U2 should be exempted due to not being very good. Uno, Dos, Tres, …. Catorce! U2 could put out an album consisting entirely of burp and fart noises and critics would continue to rave. What an annoying, overrated band. I have a U2 bias, since the first album I ever bought was WAR, and they were my first true love. Air Supply was the first single I ever bought, though. New Year’s Day was the first record I ever bought Susan. Give a little love for Dave Matthews Band. In 04, Rolling Stone did a list of the top fifty artists of all time. You can see it here. Interesting to note that the top 10 “bands” are: 1. The Beatles 4. The Rolling Stones 12. The Beach Boys 14. Led Zeppelin 19. The Velvet Underground 22. U2 26. The Ramones 29. The Who 30. The Clash 32. Smokey Robinson and the Miracles I might argue with the order of those bands a little, but it’s hard to argue with that list as the top ten bands of all time. I look at DMB more folksy than pop I don’t even know if I consider U2 to be pop I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks they’re overrated #52 – My thoughts exactly Does Elvis Costello and the Attractions count? Because after The Beatles, they just might get my vote. REM is a great rock band, and some of their stuff is pop, but most of it is not their best stuff. The Kinks were great, but if you look at their career in total, they put out a lot of bad, bad music in the 1970s and 1980s. Big Star. A-ha Might as well put Husker Du up there, Susan. Another vote for the Beach Boys – it’s timeless(well, somewhat), catchy, fun. Duran Duran was my favorite pop band of the 80s, been a while since they released a song I really enjoyed (Electric Barbarella, maybe.) Modern pop, though… Does Pet Shop Boys count? To you U2 haters, I think you can argue that U2 isn’t pop (I still don’t know what pop means, so until we define it better, it could mean anything), but anyone who seriously argues that U2 isn’t any good risks losing all credibility. If they’re in the hall of fame, they’re good, even if you don’t like them. Those are the facts, folks. If they’re in the hall of fame, they’re good, even if you don’t like them. Are you sure you want to go there? Sure, Brian, point out all the artists that are in the hall of fame that you don’t think are good. Be exactly that obnoxious, if you wish. In so doing, however, please be aware that you are failing to recognize that if the overwheming weight of knowledgeable opinion is against you, your continued insistence on your perverse little isolated pont of view makes you appear as something of a moron. There are just certain points of view that ought to be accepted as a given at some point. Not reasonably contestable. Those points include such things as sunshine being warm, gravity causing objects to fall downward, and U2 being one of the greatest bands of all time. Sorry to break the news to you, but there it is. Define “good.” And—Husker Du. good –adjective 2. satisfactory in quality, quantity, or degree: a good teacher; good health. 3. of high quality; excellent. I’m not contesting your opinion, MCQ. However, the whole “if it’s popular that means it’s good” argument is a popular one but also, I feel, a misguided one. If this logic is to be believed, Milli Vanilli and New Kids on the Block are two of the best groups of the 90s, McDonald’s is the best food in the country, Friends is a great show, The Da Vinci Code is a great book, etc etc you get the idea. There are just certain points of view that ought to be accepted as a given at some point. Seriously? I couldn’t disagree more. “Good” is about as subjective as anything can get. Madonna’s in the rock & roll hall of fame. I think she’s terrible. If I don’t like something, it’s not good (to me), and I’m not going to force myself to try and like something just because most people do. You disagree with my taste? Great! I won’t try to force you to share my opinion. I’d argue about that top 10. Seriously. Little Richie is #8 whereas Led Zepplin is #14 and Pink Floyd isn’t even anywhere on the list? Seriously? I mean I can see disputing order and all. But Zepplin at 14 and no Floyd? Note that both Nirvana and the Ramones are on the list. I love both. But no Floyd? I can see maybe not putting them in the top 10. But not even in the top 50? The guys who still outsell most of the rest of the top 50? The guys who had an album that stayed on the Billboard charts for 741 weeks! Here I thought Brian V would point out that the nomination process for the R’n'R Hall of Fame is controlled by only a few people. (I think of the Hall of Fame as the Establishment. Why should I care what the Establishment thinks is good?) I love these kinds of conversations even though they end up being futile. Clark- I’m totally with your on the Floyd. It baffles me. They’re one of the best bands ever. I can’t see the Ramones being in the Top Ten. Their recordings are fun to listen to on a certain level, but they were a three-chord band and sometimes they didn’t even play those three chords very well. I saw them live once and was very disappointed. They weren’t in the top 10. The top 50. (…)but anyone who seriously argues that U2 isn’t any good risks losing all credibility. If they’re in the hall of fame, they’re good, even if you don’t like them. Those are the facts, folks. You know how you lose all credibility? When you imply that everyone must accept your subjective tastes as a standard for “good” music, when you equate mass popularity and music industry self congratulatory a** kissing to quality, and when you start calling people morons because they don’t hold a bunch of self-obsessed publicity whore Irishmen in the same esteem as you. MCQ just won the triple crown of fanboy pretentiousness! Hey, now. Bono is going to save the world, you know. Clark, I agree with you about Floyd, they should be on that list, that is a glaring omission. “if it’s popular that means it’s good†No, that isn’t my argument. I’m not equating popularity, by itself, with being good. I’m suggesting that, after a certain amount of time has passed, and knowledgeable people have expressed a certain consistency of opinion, we ought to be able to accept certain points of view as a given. I think that’s why Susan exempted the Beatles from this thread. It’s a given that they are the at the top of every list. Does that mean you have to like them? Certainly not. Nor do you have to like U2. Wouldn’t dream of forcing them on you. You can certainly say you don’t like them and good luck to you. But if you are going to say they are “no good,” that’s another thing entirely. There has to be some minimum objective standard of merit, whereby we can agree that certain people or bands have passed the threshold where its reasonable to question whether they are any good. The piles of awards, accolades, top ten or top fifty lists just reach a certain critical mass where you have to just accept that they are good, whether you like them or not. I was using induction into the hall of fame as an example of that threshold, since it generally comes only after the test of time and many other awards and accolades have already been received. Perhaps that’s not a good example, but it’s certainly one possible measure. So, kwk, I’m not asking you to “accept [my] subjective tastes as a standard for “good†music.” I’m asking you to accept that there is some objective standard, and that the only way to determine whether that objective standard is met, is by accepting that at some point, the weight of knowledgeable (not necessarily popular or public) opinion actually does mean something, and what it means is that at minimum, we accept that the artist is at least “good.” I don’t think that’s an earthshaking statement, nor is it stretching the bounds of credibility. I think it’s far more incredible, at this stage, to make statements about the Beatles or the Stones or yes, even U2, not being “good.” I think it should be accepted that they are good. How good? Well, ok, we can differ about that. Bitter much? If you read carefully, you will see I didn’t call anyone a moron. I said certain points of view could make you appear to be something of a moron. Your point of view would be a good example of that. Calling U2 publicity whores is like calling George Washington an office seeker. You can’t fault people for playing the hand they are dealt to the best of their ability, especially when they use the benefits of their position to try to benefit others. Pretty good for a kb thread, morons. George Washington was a total sellout. His first year in office was his only good year. Ha! Thanks Greg. How do you feel about baseball, hot dogs and apple pie? Total crap, right? Well, it seems this argument, as most such arguments do, has become a semantic one. To my way of thinking, if I don’t like something, it’s not good (again, to me – this is subjective stuff). If I’m giving my opinion of something I don’t like, I’m going to express it this way. Why is that such a problem? And why does it matter how many rock critics before me have thought otherwise? I should just accept that my not liking The Band is a personal failing because Jann Wenner likes it? Or I should make some ridiculous clarification like “Oh, I guess it’s really good, it just doesn’t work for me”? I’ve got no time for that. Plus, your argument raises a whole bunch more questions about these alleged tastemakers. If rock critics en masse are the ultimate judge of what’s good, do we need to examine their resumes before counting their opinion? I mentioned him already, but I’m as inclined to accept Jann Wenner’s opinion of what’s good as I am to jump out of a moving car for fun, and he’s one of folks in charge of the hall. On a larger level, though, I find your idea that the majority rules (even if we’re talking “knowledgable” opinion (another quagmire, by the way) rather than popular) when it comes to rock & roll simply wrongheaded. Since when has rock & roll been about pleasing the majority of any group? Like Susan said, the establishment’s opinion of the quality of rock music means very little to me. I’m sensing a lot of anger in the comments. And looking at the time the comments were made, I think some of you need to get some sleep. Calling U2 publicity whores is like calling George Washington an office seeker. Are we even talking about the same band here? No one is going to get me to accept U2 as “good”, just like no one is going to convince me that a stale BigMac or a freezer-burned frozen burrito is good. I don’t like them. In the realm of music, or food, I would rather listen to, or eat, anything else. If you picked four random people off the street, could they make music as well as U2? Probably not. (Though I think it would probably be more interesting.) But in the context of all of the thousands of musical choices out there, U2 is near the bottom of my list. It’s not that I don’t understand your point about critical acclaim given by those “in the know” establishing roughly defined standards. U2 is not Mozart, or Proust, or Da Vinci. They’re more like Kenny G. They are a mediocre-bad pop-rock act that spends more time hawking ipods and calling press conferences to commemorate their latest charitable donations than they do to making music that’s not derivative crap. They are good at at least one thing – getting aging hipsters with inferiority complexes to fork over money hand over fist. I guess I’m am a little bitter, yeah. It’s because U2 and the incredibly overrated drivel that they put out finds it’s way into my life way too often. Come to think of it, in that sense it’s a lot like all the internet’s arrogant, self-anointed art authorities. Well I think you missed my point again Brian, but I sense it’s not worth arguing about further. To clarify one thing though, I don’t think any one person’s opinion counts any more than any other’s. I don’t put any more weight on Jann Wenner’s opinion than yours, for example, nor do I recognize anything called “the establishment” (is that a rock band?). I do, however, think that at some point you have to recognize that some measure of quality exists if years of accolades from multiple independent sources have shown that to be the consensus of people who should know what they’re talking about (meaning, other artists, among others). It’s very hip and cool to call that “the establishment” and say you don’t care what “they” think, but hundreds of people who have spent their lives playing, recording, and writing about music don’t all reach the same opinion for no reason. kwk, you’ve convinced me, there’s no way we’re talking about the same band. You obviously have U2 mixed up with some other band. When you figure out who it is you’re really talking about, let us know. It’s very hip and cool to call that “the establishment†and say you don’t care what “they†think First of all, I could care less about being cool or hip. hundreds of people who have spent their lives playing, recording, and writing about music don’t all reach the same opinion for no reason. I don’t want to belabor my point by continuing to repeat myself, but people don’t all reach the same opinion about anything. That is what I’ve been trying to say, and if I’ve done a poor job of expressing that, I apologize. No band is unanimously loved, not even the Beatles. There are always going to be dissenters no matter what, and to say that they should just accept what the majority thinks is not an opinion I share. That sort of thinking, removed from the rather innocuous arena of pop music, has spawned some pretty ugly things (none of which I am accusing you of, just to be clear). We’re still talking past each other Brian. I’m not saying that anything is ever unanimous. I’m just asking that people give me the (realitively minor) concession that an avalanche of supporters, accolades, awards and critical acclaim probably means that, at a minimum, something doesn’t totally suck. It might actually have some merit. Even if I don’t particularly care for it personally. You might say I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one. I hope someday you will join us, and the world will live as one. LOL. I think Brian’s point is a good one. For instance outside of a few songs, I don’t like the Beatles. But I’d acknowledge them as the greatest band of all time. I think it is possible to be able to distinguish between what I enjoy and what is good and probably even enjoyable to most people. This isn’t really a Big Mac like comparison. I think most people would like a well cooked meal by a top chef far more than a Big Mac. The fact that more Big Macs are sold has nothing to do with that. I think the same is true in music. The better analogy might be a perfectly cooked fish by an amazing chef. I may not like fish but I can at least acknowledge that a perfectly cooked fish by an amazing chef is good. Thank you Clark, you stated that much better than I have. You obviously have U2 mixed up with some other band. When you figure out who it is you’re really talking about, let us know. Obviously. Because it’s inconceivable that any opinion that is different from yours can hold any merit whatsoever. Yay for ad hominem attacks! …but hundreds of people who have spent their lives playing, recording, and writing about music don’t all reach the same opinion for no reason. That’s why the Grammys are so good at determining the very best music every year. If you want to find all that is worth listening to in popular music, you can start and stop with music that has won Grammys! Your “hundreds of people who have spent their lives playing, recording, and writing about music” are not the impartial, unbiased judges that you think they are. kwk, take it easy, I’m just having a little fun with you. BTW, I never said anything about the grammys. That’s just one award. By itself, it means little or nothing. Any one award or critic or accolade may be biased or flawed, but after 20 years of multiple awards, accolades, acclaim and applause from numerous independent sources, we might have something that is worth paying attention to, no? I may not like fish but I can at least acknowledge that a perfectly cooked fish by an amazing chef is good. No. U2 are not master craftsmen. Their music is not a “perfectly cooked fish”, it’s lazy, safe, uninspiring, preachy rock created by mediocre talents that gets polished by millions of dollars of production and hyped by an army of cultural elitists who never got over a pimple-y make out session to “One”. Don’t hold back, kwk, tell us how you really feel. It must be hard to be constantly fighting that army of cultural elitists out there. How did U2 get that whole army of cultural elitists on their side, anyway? It seems kind of odd that four nobodies from Dublin could have accomplished that so successfully. Must have had an amazing PR man. I’m obviously coming off like a ranting idiot here. I’m sorry. Like I said, I don’t disagree that certain artists are so talented that it becomes impossible to deny their talent. I just don’t think U2 is anywhere near that level, and it’s kind of irritating when obsessive fans discredit anyone who doesn’t acknowledge their dubious “facts”. It’s obvious that U2 appeal to a certain aesthetic that I just don’t get. And as far as all their accolades and awards and etc. – I found that when I stopped listening to music that was getting all the major label music industry back-slapping I discovered music that was much more honest, rich, and innovative. Not meaning to discredit you, just get you to agree with me! Let’s hear about some of that other music, kwk. What are you listening to lately? How did U2 get that whole army of cultural elitists on their side, anyway? The same way that 50 Cent gained an army of urban worshipers and that made Creed the biggest rock band in the US – by filling a niche (a big one) and appealing to certain sensibilities and markets. I won’t argue that it takes a certain level of ability to get popular in the first place, but I think it’s pretty common for bands to ride the wave hype, luck, and a hastily given good reputation all the way to super-stardom. I’ve just heard far too many rock bands that I think are far superior to U2 to feel OK about calling them “good” for the genre. What are you listening to lately? Lately, I’ve been hooked on Porcupine Tree and a band called “3″. Don’t know those bands, but I’m going to look them up. Thanks! Pingback: Pure motives « Mind, Soul, and Body

Wednesday, January 30, 2013 Monday, January 28, 2013 Bikers Beware- Sphincter-clenching moment ahead. Yikes that was close! If'n that was me I'da had to go change my drawers, then go buy a lottery ticket. TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Saturday, January 26, 2013 If You Want Reasoned Discourse... I had lunch today with Mr. WhyDoesAnyoneNeeda and Mr. IfItSavesOnlyOneChild... (I should get a friggin' Oscar from my performance as "Ogre Not Dismembering Clueless Progressives That Soooo Desperately Deserve It") I need to write up some ground rules for lunchtime conversation in order to keep my sanity... 1. Do your homework. (a/k/a You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.) When you use "semi-auto rifle" and "machine gun" or "magazine" and "clip" interchangeably, your level of credibility drops considerably. Also- when you ask if my guns are "registered", you are showing your ignorance in extremis. 2. Using buzzwords will get you filed under M for "Misguided and Misled". When you start using all the current Obama Administration-approved nomenclature like "Military-Style Assault Rifle", "High Capacity Clips" and "Cop Killer Bullets", well, it just indicates to my that you don't want to have a discussion, you just want to lecture me on your position. 3. Know Your Stats, and their background. For instance: 40% of gun transactions are unregulated? Really? That "40%" figure is one of the best examples of cherry-picking statistics. Read some of the facts here. 4. Don't discuss Gun Show Loopholes, and Internet Gun Purchases unless you have first-hand experience. Because when you tell me about thousands of people people buying guns on the Internet and how it circumvents background checks, I will laugh in your face. And if you tell me you can go down to the gunshow and buy a machine gun, it will be doubly amusing and chortle-worthy. 5. Name Calling (gun nuts, right wing wackos, bitter clingers, Dirty Harry wannabes with a tiny penii) will require me to end the discussion and depart the premises before finishing tiffin. (And I just hate not finishing my tiffin.) It just shows you are unwilling to discuss things rationally and are just one step from going Godwin on me... At that point I will start feeling embarassed that I even know you. 6. On the "If it only saves one child it will be worth it..." topic... Why aren't you crusading against drunk drivers, bee stings, child abuse & neglect, swimming pool accidents etc. ad infinitum ... (Actually I know the answer to that... Once you have my my icky guns, then you'll come for my booze, swimming pool and my apiary...) TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Friday, January 25, 2013 More Maddie I was perusing her website this AM. Her owner Theron Humphrey (assuming he's her owner...) has such a great eye for composition. That, and a wicked sense of humor... Yo. 'Sup, dog? Of course, she's right cute even without props or standing on things... Humphrey's book "Maddie On Things" is available for pre-order... at Amazon, or better yet- pre-order at you local indie bookseller... TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Wednesday, January 23, 2013 Bitch, Prease. (Edit: Everywhere except Vancouver.) TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Tuesday, January 22, 2013 Voices In My Head TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Road Warriors Understand TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Monday, January 21, 2013 Don't Judge Me... Like- when I come to help you with a problem on your PC, and you have the Ask toolbar installed... Boy, you are soooo getting put in my "WTF is wrong with this moron?" file... (It's just revenge for how I get labeled at the range when Fanbois see my Taurus PT92F on the bench...) TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE No One Needs a 30-Round Mag to Hunt? I guess you've never gone hunting here in North Florida... If I go out in the woods here, I'd take my AR with 5 or 6 mags, a flamethrower, and mallet & some stakes, and a gallon of Holy Water. TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Welcome to Blue Monday So- Blue Monday Feel like crap today? Here's why: Cliff Arnall (the phlogiston scientist that came up with this crap) says the date was calculated by using many factors, including: weather conditions, debt level (the difference between debt accumulated and our ability to pay), time since Christmas, time since failing our new year’s resolutions, low motivational levels and feeling of a need to take action. This date allegedly falls on the Monday of the last full week of January. The date was first declared to be 24 January in 2005. In 2011 there was confusion about the correct date; some claimed it to be 17 January 2011 while others stated Blue Monday was on 24 January 2011. In 2012, the most depressing day of the year was said to be 23 January. Calculation According to a press release by a mental health charity, the formula is: (in case you want to waste your valuable time thinking about this...) d=debt, T=time since Christmas, Q=time since failing our new year’s resolutions, M=low motivational levels and Na = the feeling of a need to take action 'D' is not defined in the release, nor are units. (Personally I think D=the current level of Dumbassery in the current administration, contributing to the overall malaise in the country - TBG) Writing about the calculation, Ben Goldacre stated: ... the fact is that Cliff Arnall's equations ... fail even to make mathematical sense on their own terms. Really Ben, y'think? TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Sunday, January 20, 2013 Again With The "Want" vs. "Need" Argument? I've gotta quit arguing with these idiots. Ok..Let's start at the top... It's called the Bill of Rights, not the 'Bill of Needs' or 'Bill of Wants'. Ok, Mr. Progressive Moron, what do you drive? What part of town do you live in? And dig out your cell phone... Why could anyone possibly want... When all you need is: I mean really- I can even get you a sporty one... Why would you possibly want one of these: All you really need is one of these, right? It just stupid to have one of these: When all your really need is one like this: Really? You need this? All you really need is this: Don't be stupid- this is overkill: This should be more than adequate: You people are going to have to learn to quit f@$%ing with me about this... I'll beat you over the head with your own arguments. Morons. TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Saturday, January 19, 2013 ToDo List "Either write something worth reading, or do something worth writing about." - Ben Franklin Seems like a good idea... TBG Wednesday, January 16, 2013 And The Hits Keep Coming... And my Houston / Jax flight is delayed... Motherf-ers... How To Piss Off the TSA Travel hour 19, 10:01am PST LAX Airport. Going through security after clearing customs... I get turned down to go through TSA PreCheck, so I'm back with the idiots that don't know you have to empty your pockets and take off your shoes. Morons. But I'm more pissed at the TSA... Sooo... In for a dime, in for a dollar. I put my bag and skateboard on the XRay belt, along with the bin with shoes, belt and pocket goodies. I announce (loudly): "My iPad is in the back pocket of my bag... Just so you TSA iPad thieves know where it is...save you some time." The three TSOs working that lane shot me some dirty looks, and after I pass the metal detector, a supervisor waddled over... "Sir, there is no need for that kind of talk. Why would you want to do that?" "Ma'am, how many terrorists have been caught by the TSA? And how many TSA agents have been arrested for stealing passenger's items?" "But sir, that is just a tiny number of bad agents...most of us are honest hard-working people. Why do you want to treat us all...like...criminals..?" My point was sinking in, but I wanted to make sure... "Exactly. You treat us like everyone is a terrorist, I'll treat you all like thieves. I think the odds of me being correct is much higher than yours." She opened her mouth to refute me, but thought better of it. 8 more hours to go... Next stop Houston. TBG Tuesday, January 15, 2013 Living My Life Like a Song - Sydney Edition Oscar Monday, January 14, 2013 Canine Neurosis I wonder if the Dark Menace would act like this... Time for research! TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Saturday, January 12, 2013 Civil Servant? Child, Please. Civil Master. TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Raaaaaacist! TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Friday, January 11, 2013 Uh... I Have Mixed Emotion On This... Well done Mr. Shawcross. Official White House Response to Secure resources and funding, and begin construction of a Death Star by 2016: This Isn't the Petition Response You're Looking ForGreat googly moogly... There's even better stuff in the body.Really? C3PO? ... Keep in mind, space is no longer just government-only. Private American companies, through NASA's Commercial Crew and Cargo Program Office (C3PO), are ferrying cargo -- and soon, crew -- to space for NASA, and are pursuing human missions to the Moon this decade. Wow. And the last line- I wonder if Lucas/Disney will tag them for copyright violations?I wonder if Lucas/Disney will tag them for copyright violations?If you do pursue a career in a science, technology, engineering or math-related field, the Force will be with us! Remember, the Death Star's power to destroy a planet, or even a whole star system, is insignificant next to the power of the Force. On the other hand... Why don't y'all work on a witty response to coming up with a budget or doing something about runaway entitlement programs... TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE This is why I only drink Rum. One _41<<... Doubtful Logistics So I'd have to wonder. On the off chance the Gummint decides to register all the firearms, Let me check a second... there is on the order of 300 million firearms out there. Do they really have a chance of makeing sense and order out of a database that big? After all, they think that it is an impossible task to register and deal with (only) 15 million illegal aliens... TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Thursday, January 10, 2013 Connecting The Dots Dipshits Mike V over at SSI links to a very interesting Fed.Gov site... The Federal Election Commission - Individual Search Page. People like George Clooney have some interesting figures following their names... Now...If you were to go to that Gawker site with the list of all NYC gun owners and plug in a few names then cross-reference it to the FEC list... Well... Start with Robert Deniro... Then Howard Stern... Interesting Entertainment will ensue. TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Putting the 'Strange' in Estrangement TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Wednesday, January 09, 2013 Executive Order? I hope he's smarter than that... It would be the tipping point. An EO on 10+ round mags? that's another story... TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Overheard on the Radio - KR Arena Edition Unrecognized voice: "Tom... come in Tom. Big problems in KRA." (Ken Rosewall Arena) Tom (Operations Manager): "Go ahead for Tom. What's the problem." UV: "We're in a changeover and they are playing Nickleback on the PA. Everyone is leaving!" TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Tuesday, January 08, 2013 20 Degrees (celsius) Cooler Today In Sydney So damned hot they had to put a new color on the heat map. I think they are exemplifying the concept of "hotter than blue blazes". (Edit) ...And I've been informed that my colorblindness is showing again... It's magenta? TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE This Will Not End Well Getting a Jump On Christmas This Year Monday, January 07, 2013 Welcome to... It's every bit of 110° here at the tennis center at the Sydney Olympic Park. And it seems like every thing I need to do is on the opposite side of the site from where I am at any given time. And that little line under the temp up there- 'feels like 101°'? So much bullshit. Maybe more like 201°. I'm going to go look for a 55 gallon drum... ... 'Cause this looks soooo comfortable. TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Clueless. Absolutely Clueless. Thank you President Obama, for making other people pay for my birth control pills. How about a thank you all the hard-working, tax paying suckers for providing you with your "Free" birth control... I guess you don't understand "Free". I'm not sure I understand the logic of Moocher-class women- they scream and shout about Women's Rights, abortion, free choice, and "keep your laws off my body", then expect special treatment... To sum up - Your reproductive system is 0% of my business but 100% my financial responsibility? Nice. I quoted Robert Heinlein in a recent post and I think it needs to be repeated here: Damn it. We are soooo screwed.Damn it. We are soooo screwed..” TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Pants On Fire WaPo:.Key law enforcement leaders? Who's that... Holder? Bloom. (emphasis mine- TBG) It will be interesting to see how this all spins up... But first- a blast from the past... ." No, we won't take your stuff... We'll just make you a felon for things you already own. I guess it might be time to trot out this old chestnut and post it: night Air Force One crashed during that crazy thunder storm outside of Chicago into a small farm. The FBI quickly went to investigate, but looking at the crash site they knew there were no survivors. TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE They looked frantically through the wreckage trying to find President Obama's body, but it was nowhere to be found. There were only a few scattered bodies of Secret Service agents, so maybe Obama didn't died they thought. Maybe he had gotten out and went to get some help. In the next field over, there was a farmer plowing his field like nothing ever happened. They quickly ran over to him. FBI Agent: "Excuse me sir, did you see that plane crash over there?" Farmer: "Yessiree I certainly did". FBI Agent: "Did you see anyone get up and walk away?" Farmer: "Nope. I buried them all this morning. Didn't want 'em stinkin' up the place". FBI Agent: "Did you realize president Barack Obama was on that plane?" Farmer: "Yep, buried him too". FBI Agent: "You buried the president?" Farmer: "Well, he kept saying he was still alive, but you know what a liar he is!" Cow! Democrat Jeebus. It's getting so bad that a video of a cow speaking like a democrat politician makes me laugh like a madman. How much longer is this gig gonna last? TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Sunday, January 06, 2013 A World Without Guns - Really? Basically it is a treatment of Human Nature and firearms- Tam said: Remember that 'world without guns' post I wrote the other day? Well, Tim at Gun Nuts Media took the ball and ran with that sucker. Expect to find this essay in your email inbox within the next six months, credited to a "Maj. Caudill, USMC".With that kind of lead-in I had to go RTWT... (Besides, it was either that or go clean up the pool of possum piss behind the server rack...but that's another story entirely.) The whole thing is awesome, but the money quote for me was: Lots of people like to mindlessly chant that violence is never the answer, but when the chanters dial 911 they aren’t hoping that a philosopher or ethicist shows up to try and convince the bad man to cease being bad. They want a dude with a gun.OMFG.... It kinda reminds me of when the reporter for Ebony magazine asked Richard Pryor if he believed in God... He said something like 'When you're running down the street with your head on fire, you don't call on the Bank of America.' (Go...now. Read the whole thing. Tell your friends to read it.) Alright. Gotta go clean up possum piss now... TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Ruminations On A Common Argument When I discuss that the main reason is not about hunting or target shooting- they idea was to fight tyranny - to keep the Government from getting oppressive AGAIN and the populace being unable to implement a draconian solution, people love to argue about capability. "You're going to take on the US Army/National Guard/Obama's Brownshirts/Police?" The obvious answer is 'Yes.' There are 2 aspects of this- one is, will the US Army/National Guard/Police actually enforce a disarmament/confiscation order? If Katerina is any indication, the answer is yes... If THAT happens, then a whole new kettle of fish starts to boil- to wit: Insurgencies. I was watching a series here in Sydney that follows a EOD team in Afghanistan on their daily routine. It's some pretty hairy stuff... Some pretty primitive IEDs and the weapon of choice for the enemy being a AK 47... But it got me thinking- If the situation was turned around- if Threepers in the US, with the access to chemicals and some much better long-distance weaponry, comms hardware- etc, wanted to make life miserable for the forces that are tasked to do the collecting... Well... The Brownshirts will encounter situations / conditions that will make Afghanistan look like taking candy from a baby. (Maybe a better analogy is needed... Have you ever TRIED taking candy from a baby?) Regardless- the Left seems to think most US gun owner are just gap-toothed slack-jawed droolers who wear camo and can only shout "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"...or are they just 'projecting'? Perhaps they are the victims of a exceptionally biased media that only wants to show the fringe elements that advance their agenda, and are incapable of understanding the breadth and depth of the intelligence and capabilities of law-abiding gun owners... I think, should push come to shove, things will be quite different than they imagine. I can just see my man McThag as a latter-day Francis Marion, sabotaging the Brownshirts from a base deep in the swamps of Free Florida Territories... Keep your powder dry... TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Saturday, January 05, 2013 Boy, That's A Shocker Massachusetts can't find thousands of missing welfare recipients Boston- Governor Deval Patrick is downplaying the Department of Transitional Assistance admission that it could not locate 19,000 people who have either been receiving welfare benefits. ... The Department of Transitional Assistance says 19,000 letters came back, marked "Return to Sender." And the real Captain Obvious moment: The group filed suit against Massachusetts because the DTA was not giving welfare recipients the opportunity to register to vote. That suit was filed on behalf of a Lowell woman who said she was never offered an opportunity to register to vote. TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Are You Out Of Your Mind? Over half of voters now give President Obama positive marks for leadership, his highest ratings since the early months of his presidency. Gah. Wake. Up. You. Idiots. From Doug Ross @ Journal - (All links to sources at the original site.) • First President to Violate the War Powers Act (Unilaterally Executing American Military Operations in Libya Without Informing Congress In the Required Time Period - Source: Huffington Post) • First President to Triple the Number of Warrantless Wiretaps of U.S. Citizens (Source: ACLU) First President to Golf 105 or More Times in His First Three-and-a-half Years in Office And this is just from his first term of office. Wait until mid 2015... TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Let Me Do The Maths For You... 45 113 44 111 42 107 40 104 38 100 36 97 34 93 30 86 28 82 24 75 20 68 So when I tell you that the headline reads: "Sydney Bracing for 40+ by Midweek" I'm not trying to make people in the US jealous by singing Summertime Blues. I'm just sayin' working down here ain't all Victoria Bitters and WEATHER forecasters are predicting the nation will experience its hottest ever day early in the week, the average national temperature set to climb above 40C.I'm feeling sorry for SpongeMark Squarehands- He's down in Hobart Taz, where it was 37 degrees inside their server room... The servers at his site have had their heat alarms tripping continuously since Wednesday... Holy crap on a cracker!, that is going to chnage with 40s by Tuesday, and inland NSW has cooked with peak temperatures of 45.1C in Wilcannia and 45C in Bourke, and 43.6C at the Riverina town of Hay.. In Queensland, the temperature at Birdsville topped out at 47.3C.. I'm just miserable as I roam the Sydney Olympic Tennis Park helping folks with their WiFi and fixing IT issues... I really feel for the players- the courts are a rubber composite that absorbs and radiates heat - It's probably 5 to 10 degrees (F) hotter on the court... Damn. Ok... Enough bitching... Coffee break's over.. I have to get get back on my head. TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Friday, January 04, 2013 There But For the Grace Of God, Go I... I kinda like how they let him keep his glasses on... This is some What shouldn't be surprising to a Constant Reader is that I know exactly where they keep the PRKs on the United 757-300 and the 737-700. Sad really. TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Out-F$#@ing-Standing Plan... TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Wednesday, January 02, 2013 Damn That Hurt Whoever had 17 days, you're the winner. I'll spare you the pics of Fortunately I only lost a little skin- it could have been much worse- hyperextension, torn ACL, or an even more debilitating injury could have been in the offing. (Even more fortunate - Sydney Municipal Works doesn't have a clue where that crater at the bottom of Olympic Boulevard came from... And we aren't going to tell them, are we?) Walking into the site with both knees bleeding was quite a show stopper. Everyone who knows I ride a skateboard to the site every morning just laughed and shook their heads. "We all knew it was going to happen." they said. I took it in stride... After all, unless you have some road rash you're not riding correctly. TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE Tuesday, January 01, 2013 Permission To Come Aboard? I get the heebie-jeebies watching this... TBG- ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE

. http: //. ROTFFL...... Yes because everyone should NOT have a fair shot at the American dream here. Everyone shoud have oppurtunity? Outrageous. So evil. metoo, what excuse did REAGAN use when HE RAISED TAXES 11 TIMES? i'm waiting.... Settle in. It's going to be a while. 11:10am and still no answer. 12:46pm. Prsident Obama's 4 years in office has been the biggest contradiction I've ever seen. And by the way, tastes nothing like StarBurst candy. Poor davey still drowning no matter how hard he clutches his straws. Mitt's Dad took welfare? Was on relief?....Good for him.....it gave him an oppertunity to be somebody. Otherwise his dad, and maybe even mitt would have been dead from starvation......Isn't it strange how soon we can forget when we are doing better.......I also like the way she says give him a chance! Mitts Mom speaks...... Mom Fauxstew is just reminding us the of the timeless American value that everyone is NOT to have a shot at success in the United States. How can one not be behind that idea......no fair shot for anyone FIRST READ: In rest of '98 clip, Obama speaks of 'competition' and 'the marketplace' Sure he should apologize, but he won't. Don't you know that apologizing is a sign of weakness? He's too much of a tough guy to do that. What a douchebag. The ideas spoken to the $50,000 a plate dinner was typical for Gov Mitt Romney and his pandering to the room he is in. As a centrist Republican married to a moderate Democrat we both discussed the leaks from Romney and the ones from Senator Obama in 1998, we felt that the comment from 1998 was not disenfranchising nor isolating a large segment of the population, whereas Romney's seemed to deliberately excise a portion of the population. While we realize this is due to the room he was talking to and their ideas that they pay more than their share, such speech does not show a presidential candidate aimed at united all Americans. There is too much movement depending on the room for Romney to be able to feel a sense of trust. We may not always like everything about Obama, but he is consistent and true to what he runs on. Given that we have both decided to cast a unified vote for Obama, Even given that, we believe Romney owes America an apology. Romney didn't punt with his most recent comments, he fumbled inside the opposing teams Red Zone. Considering voting Republican 'cuz Romney's a businessman? Consider this: You can't run the country like a buisness. A business is not a democracy! Cindy - I would rather have the country run by a businessman than a 'Community Organizer'. What the hell is that anyway? Organize the community to protest for more goverment handouts! Romney/Ryan 2012 Of course you would because you are rather clueless that there were only 2 businessmen elected president, the first created the great depression of the 1930's and the second created the great recession of 2008. So go pretend that you know more then what American stinker puts into your mouth back at free republic. Considering voting Republican 'cuz Romney is a businessman? Consider this: You can't run a country like a business. A business is not a democracy. I think the protests, violence, and murders in the Middle East are a prime example of why the US should not be involved in solutions to the problems in the region. It is obvious US influences of the past have led us to where we are today. Romney is right in my opinion, let nature take its course. Perhaps in time the problems will be resolved by the primary parties. Hey that is a great speech by Obama, and even then he believed there were kind ways to work out differences, so that every body has a shot at life, and know one will be just put out on the streets. He says he doesn't know what to do about it at that point, but he believes that we can give everyone some quality of life if we can manage to find a way to make it happen. So what is wrong with saying that. He wasn't trying to create a division like willard ripoff does. HatefulMom - you are obviously part of the handout crowd which is the reason you adore Obama and believe all his lies! free republic sully you are as well I have yet to see a tea bagged republican who didn't have his hand out while whining that he was entitled to more. Your candidate is Pinocchio and he would not know the truth if it came up and bit him on his only claim to manhood. In addition, he running mate is Lying Ryan he even lies about his Marathon time. The 47% are not the "handout crowd", they are:, ccharitable. Does your contempt apply to those Corporations who do not pay Federal Income Tax? How about to your zero - oh I mean your hero- he uses tax loopholes to avoid paying taxes and what about those Swiss Accounts and Cayman Island accounts again to avoid paying taxes. Reason to see Complete Returns for more than 2 years on Romney/Ryan: 1..” Marriott had to pay huge penalties and I wonder have similar methods been used on Romney’s tax returns? Was Romney ever issued amnesty? 2. Need to see Romney’s tax return to see how. There were two articles on this: Huffington Post and Rueters. 3. Would his tax return show the following: Paul Ryan’s financial disclosure forms for Congress that were made public, showed he and his wife own stake in 4 family companies that lease land in Texas and Oklahoma to.” 4. Did Paul Ryan benefit from news Congress received about the financial crisis in 2008 and would it show on his tax returns. Is there any truth to this story: “September 18, 2008 the day Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke and then-Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson broke the news to congressional leaders that they would have to approve a bailout to avert a complete meltdown of the financial system. gop theme song.....but a bitting sorcasim. . At last sully makes the best post he has ever mind and it is a reflection of his opinion as well. Well this is not that much of a stupid comment from Romney on the Israel-Palestine thing. There is no settlement for peace on the rise, I don't see that happening in eight years no matter what the international community does. Obama has himself voted down staehood for Palestine, this was a wise decision. Fact of the matter is any Palestinian "government" will have too many direct ties to terror to be endorsed. Those two people's have been content to kill over this worthless stretch of land for centuries and that won't end until BOTH sides put down the hate and that is no one of mankind's strong points.. The United States should continue to isolate Hamas until it renounces terrorism, recognizes Israel's right to exist, and abides by past agreements. The Obama administration has both funded and legitimized Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood while strongly pressuring Israel to retreat to the indefensible 1948 border lines, not recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital,. Also the Obama administration has implemented a de facto six-month freeze on arms sales to Israel. The hostile climate the Obama administration has created between the U.S. and Israel since this president took office does not enhance Israel’s confidence in a peace deal brokered by this administration. Is that all you got...unfact checked BS from a radical site? I guess you wouldn't believe it if it came from the horses mouth huh? . Funny thing is, 70% of Jews support Obama in this election. Funny how sully thinks American stinker is a credible source of information. kathy Sine - I am not jewish although I have many friends who are. Many of them live in Florida, and the problem is they want to vote for Romney. They are seniors, who stand to lose a lot if Romney/ Ryan get elected. Many of them are not that well off financially. How is it that they want to do that? It makes no sense to me. . Woolard's goose is cooked and because of this video! I guess you could call it a TV dinner! Much like a pig with an apple in its mouth Woolard has a foot in his! Hah! Romney has an attitude that should be dealt with the same as the French dealt with their problem during the French Revolution...OFF WITH THEIR HEADS. It wouldn't matter he would still be flip-flopping around! I love how the liberal and the OWS crowd refer to the bloody, frenzied French Revolution as the one they aspire to instead of the American Revolution. Maybe because deep down you know Obama is the tyrant! You would prefer to execute anyone you deem a 'threat' to your cause than face the truth, much like you rejoice when a conservative gets banned here! You don't want to hear apposing viewpoints, you just want to wallow in your ignorance with your compatriots! xxx is a prime example. He accuses others but does nothing but spew hate and lies! Re: #16 OK I get it now. The way your mind works -- Take a statement someone makes - twist it - distort it - make a grand generalization out of it - state it as fact - and then believe it as truth. Never mind that the 2 revolutions were about 2 completely different issues. Typical tea bagged republican non thought. maphi-I do believe you've got it. whom - everything has to be explained to you! The American Revolution was about Independence and getting rid of a tyrant. Today Obama is the tyrant! Which is why the liberal and OWS crowd aspire to the French Revolution. As Voiceinmyhead (apt name for all you liberals) stated: he didn't like Romney's attitude so "off with his head" like the French did during their revolution. Wrong again sully gee sully keep on proving that you know less then a 5th grader. The American revolution was about the colonies not having a say in the government. The French revolution was caused by the wealthy who were eating good while the working man starved, see the wealthy French Aristocrats enjoyed tax freedom everyone else had to pay taxes, oh and for your information it was that same type of wealthy Aristocrats that gave rise to the legend of Robin Hood. You know what the republicans are creating in the US today. Foriegn Policy - here is what matters Is the world better off than 4 years ago? Don't think so!! 4.5 million times better Bin Laden DEAD....Oh yeah we are way better off.... That's right always look at the short term - the potential problems out there now are greater than we have faced in decades. In history, there are many times when the killing of the founder of a movement has only strengthened it, let hope that is not the case here. The violence in the Muslim world could point otherwise. 4.5 million? don't get the reference? NBC/WSJ Poll: Approval of Obamas foreign policy plunges. Must be Bush's fault. If you look back through history and not fox news history...you will find that when a democratic president is in office we as a country do far better in all areas of the world. You see greywolf we have to come in and clean up or clear up the mess you republicans start all the time. We are not the world cops as you clearly think we should be. You live by the fear tactics the the republicans always thrown down as that is all they have. Get real! Get a life! And stop listening to the lies that have no basis of truth....wow... NBC/WSJ Poll: Approval of Obamas foreign policy plunges. Must be Bush's fault I think even Obama is getting tired of that excuse.....maybe he will try using the Tsunami excuse this time..... It's like a recipe.....4 scoops of Bush's Fault, with 2 ounces of Arab Spring, 4 pounds of Europe and a Dash of Tsunami......Bake it 3.5 years and Bing.....You have the answer to all our troubles.... GrayWolfl-All those things were true 8 years ago. And most of them were true 20 years ago. And Bush is the one who made a disaster out of Iraq, and removed them as a steadying influence on Iran. Darn I forgot ......6 Tons of Congress.... It is a shame it has come to this....when all we really need is On ounce of a Leader. And the lying Ryan plan will address the budget some time around 2040, maybe. Funny how the budget is always the worst problem today yet every republican plan doesn't address the budget problem for at least 20 years or never. And only during Democratic administrations. whom - got facts? Didn't think so. The liberals here repeat the Democrat talking points that the reason the economy is still so bad is because the Republicans are not cooperating with Obama. Remember Obama and the Democrats who held both the houses in 2009 telling the Republicans to "either go along for the ride or go to the back of the bus"? Barney Franks also joked about Republicans suffering from post-bipartisan depression, indicating the Democrats had no intention of working with the Republicans. The liberals in the room thought it was oh-so-funny… then! Ryan. who is known for his specificity about how the nation should move forward to address the fiscal challenges of debt, deficit, and entitlements. Mr. Obama, on the other hand, seems to be distancing himself as much as possible from his record as president and what that record reveals regarding his plans and intentions for America's future; instead, he is running a campaign of contempt and personal attacks against Mr. Romney. Go back to American stinker sullly, I'm sure they would love your non opinion there. sully, you must have missed this. http:/ / (Remove the space between the //'s when you copy & paste the link to your search engine.) What's changed and when? The democrats have no intention of working with republicans because republicans have no intention of working. They've not done anything to work with the dems in the house and have wasted time repealing obamacare 30 times even know they've known from the beginning will not pass the senate. They've released zero bills to create jobs instead they've voted to keep their own congressional healthcare benefits...you know the ones obamacare gives to everyone....that thing they want to take away. The house republicans apparently believe they should keep benefits they think the people don't deserve to have. They've voted to keep unnecessary oil subsidies. They've voted for needless deregulation policies....deregulation has never created a single job.....od how the GOP wants less regulation on the financial sector after all it's not like that was a major factor in what crashed the economy in the first place. Nice improvement there guys. Oooh they've rewritten the rules to gives themselves more vacation. Gee wish I could "work" for two weeks and then take a whole week off. Cantor has already sent them on a break for the next two and half months after they just got off break a week and half ago Now on Paul Ryan since he's so specific which loopholes in the tax code does he want to get rid of? Where's the rest of his budget? You know the part that would actually make it possible to do all the things he claims will happen? The GOP is the party of foreign policy illiterates and has not added one single solution of substance to any foreign policy issues. They still think the Soviets are coming and we're going to have to fight them off like Red Dawn. Rocky 4 was a long time ago. Why is the Obama campaign allowing Paul Ryan to say that it was "Obama policies" at fault for the growing number of dependent people and the debt? I'd like Ryan to name those Obama policies at fault. He'll just tell a lot of lies. Ryan's a lost cause. Soon to be "former vice-presidential candidate Ryan." BO...Are you serious.? It was Obama that escalated our debt to 16 trillion. It was Obama who removed the food stamp requirement that one must be working to qualify. It was Obama who has kept unemployment above 8% for 4 years , forcing people who would be working otherwise, to go on dissability. Every statement a lie. BO - if you can't figure that one out for yourself it would be a waste of time for anyone to try and explain it to you. You wouldn't want to believe it anyway! Like whom and Sad Chris your posts have no basis in facts, just the propaganda you hear from MSNBC! Projecting yourself onto others sully typical say nothing post by the guy who reads American stinker. Ryan's going to be on the WI ballot as Senator AND VP candidate and could end up losing BOTH! We can only hope! I knew it! Ryan is keeping one eye on the prize. Gotta keep that government pension under close scrutiny. Ryan got his mind on his money and his money on his mind. That poser ain't going to voluntarily leave government-- big or little! Yeah, who was the President that got us in to the Viet Nam war. And who pulled us out? Eisenhower got us in. Nixon got us out 'cause we made him. Let's see WWII - Democrates - Korea - Democrates - Viatnam - Democrates (only advisors before) Not saying they were not justified - another whole question. To say that Dems don't get us into as many messes as Rep is silly. But what has Obama got us out of? The plan for leaving Iraq was negociated by Bush. Afganistan is a mess. The point of the 10 item is that nothing is better, only worst! The point of your post is propaganda, nothing else. The Chris..............One day when your kids are living under Obamas Shiria law, just call it propaganda. What is not true? turnout-Your statement definitely is. graywolf-already answered. Gray and Turnout - don't even bother to respond to SadChris. He is obviously not very smart, believes everything Ed says, then gets offended when anyone challenges Ed becasue in effect you are challenging his intelligence. SadChris and whom are a complete wastes of space and oxygen! Romney/Ryan 2012! And you are a dumbass racist jerk. Liberals hate the truth and Romney told the truth. Obama has created a voting block of people who are expecting something from government, that is the truth and no one can deny it. I believe he will get re-elected because of these people. True americans do not take from government, true americans seek and find work and those who don't the liberals say, "come on in, we'll help you, here is some money for your drugs and for your booze, now remember to vote for us". This counrty will not be the same in 2016, if we survive that long under this clown. It's been a long time coming. I think that Liberals just don't understand that Conservatives don't mind helping people but that it should be help that gets them on thier feet with dignity. We have spent trillions on proverty programs since the early '60s and the poor are in no better shape now. The percentage living under the poverty level is basicly the same or worst. So you can continue to do the same old programs which do not cure the problem or you can try something different. After I have hit my head against a wall for 50 years & it is not moving, I would hope I had the sense to change the present course of action. Liberals not only want to continue the same old but want to double down on what has not worked! WASHINGTON — A look at where Democratic President Barack Obama and Republican presidential rival ruling. Said he would end federal aid to Planned Parenthood. ___, but vital specifics are lacking. At same time would increase military spending, reverse $716 billion in Medicare cuts and cut taxes. Favors constitutional balanced budget amendment. ___ ECONOMY: Obama: Term marked by high unemployment, a deep recession that began in previous administration and gradual recovery. Persistently high jobless rates over 8 percent — 8.1 percent in August, up from 7.8 percent in February 2009.. Romney: Endorses 2014 end to U.S. combat in Afghanistan, subject to conditions at the time. Would increase strength of armed forces, including number of troops and warships, adding almost $100 billion to the Pentagon budget in 2016. ___. @ dave 3254139; Romney generalized my friend. He put all 47% in the same box. I can generalize too, why should the rich think they are "Entitled" to get paid millions for doing very little work? Come on, do these people really think they are worth that much over anyone else? So the investor deserves a bigger return than the inventor? Investors do not invent new things except when it comes to inventing ways to screw people over. I will repeat, THE ONLY ONES WHO DESERVE TO MAKE MILLIONS FROM AN IDEA OR AN INVENTION ARE THE INVENTORS THEMSELVES and NOT THE INVESTORS. Investors should get no more than a couple % on the money they invest. This is the primary problem in business. The people at the top think they are "Entitled" to make millions as compared to the ones who actually design and make the products. So, let's get rid of that feeling of entitlement too. I myself do not think I am entitled to anything from the government except a return on the taxes I pay. In other words, infrastructure investment, research investment, education investment and some protections for the consumers. That is what I feel we are all entitled to expect from our government. If you pay into SS and medicare, then you should expect a return on that future investment. If there is not a return, then you should not have to pay SS or medicare. Why should we believe him this time? Hey The Chris............I'll give you another chance. Now think hard, or maybe ask EDD or Maddow for a hint. Who was the president that got us in to the Viet Nam war and who got us out. ? Already answered. The Chris........Youre either to young to remember or you need to catch up on youtr history. You can't remember a post from 5 hours ago. Oh look-turnoutthelights has rereged already. 1. GOP failures give wealthy tax breaks and they create jobs. Only every republican president saw jobless recoveries gee and you whine democrats don't fix GOP problems fast enough. Here is a clue robme hood plans on more tax cuts to the wealthy the workers gets tax increases, so how is robme hood going to let someone keep more of what they work for when he plans on taxing them more. And we get another example of the tea bagged republican circle jerk. 999, I have a feeling most voters don't know this including that blogger you copied and pasted from. When FDR was President http:/ / (Remove the space between the //'s when you copy and paste the link to your search engine.) And in case you aren't aware, 13,000,000 unemployed was 25% back then. http:/ /ingrimayne.com/econ/EconomicCatastrophe/GreatDepression.html (Remove the space between the //'s when you copy and paste the link to your search engine.) You can not address serious budget matters by taking more from those with least to give that to those who did not need it. Taxing those already in financial hardship into further poverty will only result in those people more dependent on government. That is your solution you don't get to say that isn't the case because you don't want that, that's the consequence of what you advocate. USA - GOP WAR ON AMERICA See other USA - GOP WAR ON AMERICA Articles Title: 'If I were a fanatic I'd let off nuclear bomb in Chicago': Romney brands Iran 'crazy people' in new secretly filmed outburst URL Source: ... omb-Chicago.html#ixzz26vkctS1V Date: 2012-09-19 14:45:45 by Skip Intro Keywords: None Views: 5 Mitt Romney’s White House bid took another blow last night after he appeared to suggest a pro-Iranian terrorist could hold America to ransom by threatening to blow up Chicago with a nuclear bomb..’ In another secretly filmed video clip, Mr Romney claimed there was no point trying to appeal to Democratic voters because they were ‘freeloaders who don’t pay taxes’. ‘There are 47 per cent who are with Barack Obama, who are dependent upon government, who believe they are victims,’ he said. ‘These are people who pay no income tax. My job is not to worry about those people.’ In another video, he fires a broadside at the Palestinians, saying: ‘I look at the Palestinians not wanting to see peace anyway, committed to the destruction of Israel, and I say there’s just no way [there will be peace].’ And he can be heard joking he would have an easier time winning the US election in November if his father had Mexican parents, instead of being a state governor and wealthy car company boss. In the same video, Mr Romney also tells how he considered investing in a sweatshop-like factory in China when he was head of US private equity giant Bain Capital. The businessman – who recently criticised Mr Obama for ‘spending 43 months failing to confront China’s unfair trade practices’ was given a tour of the factory in the 1990s, where 20,000 women earned tiny wages and lived in squalid conditions. He said: ‘As we were walking through this facility, seeing them work, the number of hours they worked the pittance they earned. ‘And around this factory was a fence, a huge fence with barbed wire and guard towers. And we said gosh, I can’t believe that you, you know, keep these girls in. ‘And they said, no, no, no. This is to keep other people from coming in. Because people want so badly to work in this factory that we have to keep them out’. US news channel CNN said sources revealed Bain did not invest in the firm or buy it. The videos, which were all taped during a $50,000-a-plate dinner for wealthy donors in Florida, surfaced as the presidential campaign enters its final 50 days. Snippets were placed online in YouTube films by Mother Jones, a liberal magazine, which said it obtained them from a guest at the dinner hosted by millionaire US financier Marc Leder on May 17. The footage was unearthed with the help of former Democrat president Jimmy Carter’s grandson, James, who is credited with ‘research assistance’ on its website. Last night, Jim Messina, Mr Obama’s campaign manager, said: ‘It’s shocking that a candidate for President would go behind closed doors and declare to a group of wealthy donors that half the American people view themselves as ‘victims’ entitled to handouts, and are unwilling to take 'personal responsibility' for their lives. ‘It’s hard to serve as a president when you’ve disdainfully written off half the nation.’ Hanan Ashrawi, a Palestinian lawmaker and scholar, said Mr Romney’s remarks were ‘irresponsible and dangerous’. However, the politician said he stood by the remarks which were ‘not elegantly stated’. The fundraiser where Romney made the fateful remarks was thrown in May by hedge fund manager Marc Leder, who has developed a reputation as a party boy. Mr Leder, who is worth a reported $400million, runs Sun Capital Partners in Boca Raton, Florida. The New York Post reports that he threw a lurid end-of-summer party in the Hamptons last year at a mansion he rented for $500,000 a month. The raucous gathering included at least one couple that stripped down naked in the pool and then had sex on the pool deck in full view of other party guests. All of this took place to the backdrop of go-go dancers, fire twirlers and throbbing techno music. Mr Leder, 50, reportedly kicked up his partying lifestyle after his wife of 22 years cheated on him with her 23-year-old tennis instructor. Obama has been working hard to make political hay out of Romney's comments at the fundraiser. During an interview with David Letterman late Tuesday, the president accused his Republican challenger of dividing the nation. 'My expectation is that if you want to be president, you have to work for everyone, not just for some,' he said. 'What I think people want to be sure of is you are not writing off big chunks of the country because the way our democracy works.' He also criticized Romney for saying 47 percent of Americans think of themselves as 'victims,' saying the American Dream is alive and well among all of the voters he meets. Romney didn't score marks for his choice of words -- even from his own running mate, who called the comments 'obviously inarticulate.' Wisconsin congressman Paul Ryan made the comment in an interview aired Tuesday by KRNV-TV in Reno,. Meanwhile, Republican launched a counteroffensive in an attempt to regain momentum. Appearing on Fox News on Tuesday, Romney pointed to a secret 1998 tape of Obama saying he wants to redistribute wealth in the United States. Hitting back: President Obama said Romney's remarks were not fitting for a national leader. He said a president must represent all Americans Hitting back: President Obama said Romney's remarks were not fitting for a national leader. He said a president must represent all Americans Then-Illinois state senator said: 'The trick is figuring out how do we structure government systems that pool resources and hence facilitate some redistribution. 'Because I actually believe in redistribution, at least at a certain level to make to make sure everybody has got a shot.' The audio of the tape was posted on YouTube on Tuesday and dated October 1998. Romney says it shows a clear division between the vision of America that he is offering and the ideals that Obama espouses. 'Frankly, we have two different views about America. The president’s view is one of a larger government. There is a tape that came out where is the president is saying he likes redistribution. I disagree,' Romney told Fox News. 'I think a society based upon a government-centered nation where government plays a larger and larger role, redistributes money, that’s the wrong course for America. That will not build a strong America or help people out of poverty.' Click for Full Text! Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread I wish James Carter would find out if there is any footage on the the fundraiser Cheney held for Romney and unearth that. I bet that would be interesting. This is like writing an essay and then you realize its so bad, you just throw it in the trash So throw your essay in the trash. I guess the peanut didn't fall far from the plant......President Carter...you are very nice person....but as president....you harmed this great country....just like Bush and Obama. BREAKING NEWS! MITT ROMNEY HAS A(nother) SILVER SPOON MISHAP:(O.M.G.! _____ 'Romney is also heard saying that the campaign trail is not a good place for specifics.....'"' (emphasis mine.) _____ Above, Mitt Romney is heard telling the "beautiful people" and the" lovelies" what he really thinks about you "little people". Its nice to be able to take off your wig and scarves every now and again, yes? Oh, cheers the video! (video link left.)

!) Sure, but by my argument, that would just hurt me. I'd get reminded of MoR early when I would just be looking at my email.. While in most types of fights killing is usually easier and safer than disabling, it is neither ruthless nor practical but simply short-sighted to lose track of why you are fighting. There are plenty of situations where killing your enemy bears great costs. Maybe it would expose you to revenge from someone more powerful; maybe it would lead you to waste years of your life in court if not prison. Maybe it would be a massive PR victory for those who oppose you, undermining the entire plan that brought you into a fight in the first place (sounds familiar?). Maybe it would prevent you from obtaining critical help or information from the defeated enemy; the list could go on. Of course preserving your own life has tremendous value (I heard there's a saying among some policemen: "an ugly trial is better than a beautiful funeral"), but it is not an absolutely incommensurable value. For a certain subset of X and Y in ]0,1[², you would accept an X chance of losing your life to a not-quite-dead enemy in exchange for a Y chance of not wasting decades of life (arguably), or (certainly) of not dying later on to unstoppable revenge. All of the above being pretty much a very long-winded way of rephrasing Prof. Quirrell's dismissal that "there is a time and place to take your enemy alive, and a Hogwarts classroom is usually one of those". I never got the impression that Harry's "Intent To Kill" thing included any tendency whatsoever to forget why he was fighting. The lesson here is completely distinct from being gratuitously stupid. I disagree. First, Quirrell very clearly asked Harry to think of combat uses for items in the classroom; that his thinking automatically restricted itself to lethal uses shows a serious flaw in his on-the-spot strategic abilities. This particular example is a good one, since his killing ideas quickly became worthless, but had he considered other aspects of combat he would have come up with a lot of much more useful options, such as using desks as barricades. Secondly, Quirrell's quiz test is closely followed by two entire chapters devoted to Harry's highly dangerous tendency to escalate fights beyond the point where he could expect the best reward-to-risk ratio (George Patton once said: "Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning"). Deciding from the start that the enemy must die, without even fleetingly considering if other options may be preferrable, is clearly part of this problem. I realise, as I write this, that there is a possibility we may be talking about two distinct things. As I read it in the text, by "intent to kill" Quirrell referred to Harry's reflexive interpretation of any fight as a fight to the death. If you are, instead, using the phrase to refer to the willingness and psychological ability to kill (whereas most regular people would find themselves instinctively aiming their knives away from vital points, and so on), then I have no disagreemen. Also note that in the lesson "intent to kill" is not presented by Quirrel as purely good thing, nor is Harry called the most capable warrior or the best kid to have your back in the fight but the most dangerous student, an epithet that could well apply to the cadet with the worst trigger discipline. It appears that intent to kill goes along with a lack of squeamishness about violence, and it may be easier to teach Harry about the proper uses of violence than to train Draco to be unaffected by it, but that does not mean that intent to kill is itself a good thing I'm actually speaking of neither of those things. Instead I speak of the things I allude to in my initial comment. Similar language is used to express related concepts fairly often in books on strategy as well as Eliezer's document on the virtues of rationality. I have also specifically asserted that I am not referring to the somewhat distinct concept on picking idiotic fights.. Huh? Why is yaoi fandom the relevant population? Ah, I see what is going on. When Pavitra wrote "thinks Harry/Draco is hawt", did he mean "thinks Harry is sexy and/or thinks Draco is sexy" or did he mean "thinks that the concept of a romantic relationship between them is an exciting concept"? FYI, X/Y is read "X slash Y" and is a way of calling out a ship. Cool. Thx. I'm more ancient than I like to admit, and this is my first fanfic experience. I'm very proud that I didn't have to look up "ship". I however did -- because I didn't find my correct guess plausible. (An apostrophe would help: " 'ship ".) (Imagine if I wrote: "It was my first ence of that sort." You might be able to guess that "experience" is the most likely meaning, but it would need verification and still feel weird afterward.) I also don't understand "call out": does it mean "refer to", or "advocate"? I had to look it up too, but I do note that the changed usage of ship vs relationship makes leaving off the apostrophe appropriate. 'Relationship' can't be used as a verb! I'm tempted to start using "ence" as an abbreviation for "experience". I like the sound of it and it seems like a word that deserves a monosyllabic version. The word already has a monosyllabic version (exp) but it is interesting to note that an "ence" variant is probably still warranted. I would still use 'experience' in the places where people may abbreviate to ence, because it feels right to my intuitions. "Exp" is a resource that I acquire but experiences, they are things to be savoured. I want to be fully present, in the moment for the full three syllables. In the same vein I would 'ship' combinations I was somewhat distancing myself from or perhaps considering particularly abstractly but I would never consider using that jargon in relation to Harry and Hermione for example. If I didn't use 'relationship' I would rephrase the context such that another word or phrase (connection? or 'author conveyed a bond between'?) fit the context. I like Ence as a separate word from Exp for two reasons. First, Exp is very strongly tied to a meaning in games that is in important ways opposite from the meaning we would want Ence to have. And second, I don't think "exp" counts as properly monosyllabic; the monosoyllabic prononciation /eksp/ has a consonant cluster that many languages and English dialects don't allow in speech, causing speakers to automatically expand it to /ek.spi/. I know people who use "tech" for "technique," "grade" for "upgrade," etc. Once you get used to it, it really is more efficient, but at the price of making it more difficult for outsiders to understand what you're saying. Bah. Those two abbreviations are terrible. People use those? There is no context where tech(nique) is used in which the existing use of tech(nology) wouldn't be appropriate, given that techniques can be considered technology. Why oh why would you not use 'nique' or 'niq'? I suspect I would be willing to signal myself as an outsider so as to avoid sacrificing my dignity like that! For a while I've wondered what exactly Robin Hanson is doing (what he's trying to signal, perhaps? I don't know) when he uses abbreviations like "med", "docs", "tech", etc. (Pretty sure there are other common ones not coming to my mind right now.) He doesn't otherwise come off as a lazy writer, he can't really pass for "folksy" (and super-contrarian econblogging isn't quite the right context for that anyway), they aren't difficult or cumbersome words... This is the characteristic feature of jargon. (And fanfic has its jargon like anything else.) I've seen "tech" for "technology" but not for "technique". Interesting. In this context, it means something like "name" or "denote". The latter. And I talked about yaoi fans because Eliezer did.? Very good point. My objection is rendered moot. While this is also a relevant point, I would expect it to have nearly the opposite effect. Before puberty, identification with a sexual orientation would have to be completely socially constructed, so in a gay-friendly society most people should identify as bisexual by default. This is not the case. Many gay people know that they are gay at a young age, often well before puberty. Or they realize that they are somehow different from the others around them. Human sexuality is not as simple as an on-off switch with the whole system coming into play when people hit puberty. A society can be gay-friendly and still heteronormative. In fact, I'd say that contemporary First-World youth fit right into that, although gay-friendliness hasn't spread to the whole society yet. Still, as long as heterosexuals are most common, gays and bis will still be seen as unusual, even if OK. So socially, I expect that most people will still assume that they're het until they learn otherwise. However (contradicting both you and me), there are gay people who say that they knew that they were gay from a very young age. On the other hand, puberty has been known to mess with one's expectations. Generalising from one example: I can't quite describe the environment that I grew up in as gay-friendly, only moving in that direction. Perhaps if it had been, then I'd have identified as bisexual at puberty, but perhaps not. In any case, it was a heteronormative environment, so I expected to be attracted to the opposite sex, and was. Then I jumped to conclusions, self-identified as het and suppressed my attraction to the same sex (ETA: because it messed with my idea of who I was) for another ten years. (Before puberty, I was completely asexual.) On reflection, I was generalizing from one example as well. I was pretty sexual-hangup-y as a kid. I didn't begin to suspect I was gay until I was seventeen, and it was another two or three years after that before I was comfortable with the idea that I had a sex drive at all. Actually, I've just thought of more stuff. Why would there be gender-segregated dorms in this world? Unless they're trying to deliberately encourage homosexuality in teenagers as a strategy for avoiding accidental teen pregnancy. This would also explain Lupin's possible attitude (though I may be misreading) that homosexuality is a thing for the young, while adult relationships tend to be heterosexual. On the other hand, if this were the case, I would expect the childhood sexuality taboo to only apply to heterosexuality, in which case Lupin shouldn't have had the "when you're older" reaction to telling Harry about Sirius and Peter's relationship. Remember also that the girls' dorms are magically protected against boys, but not conversely (at least in Gryffindor, at least midway in Harry's career). IIRC, Hermione derides the rule as old-fashioned (but then, she's Muggle-born, so that proves nothing). A wise strategy, I would think. One reason why teen pregnancy rates are higher in the more relgious areas of the United States? This was the attitude of the classical Greeks (and then Romans), at least for men. I think that has more to do with the idea that it's immoral to provide kids with sex education. (This theory would be falsified if there's a significantly larger difference in teen pregnancy than in teen STDs.) The real answer, of course, is that Hogwarts is shaped after British public schools, and it inherited gender-based dorms just like it did the four-house system. A possible justification/rationalisation is that there are drastically different dynamics between a sexual attraction that involves a vast majority of the population, and one that involves a minority: heterosexual affections are much more likely to be potentially returned, compared to homosexual ones. Hence, while the occasional homosexual affair will sprout up in an all-male/all-female dorm, a mixed teenage dormitory would be completely overrun with drama, awkwardness, and unpleasant sounds and smells. I can think of a good reason for segregated dorms: In the MoRniverse at least, rape is something aristocratic boys can do casually with the full expectation of getting away with it. Not to mention panty raids and other assorted sexually-harrassing nonsense. Even in a society without medieval/Victorian mores, girls would still need a place of relative safety in which to sleep, shower, dress, etc.. This is a good point. Is there a specific reason to be significantly more concerned about male-on-female rape than the other three combinations? Well, in practice, it seems to be a lot more common. Certainly a lot more reported. It's by far the most common, outside of certain highly artificial settings that don't apply to Hogwarts. Boarding schools and prisons create similar social scenarios. I believe male-male rape/harassment/"hazing" is/was a significant problem in many all-male British boarding schools. Fraternities fit into more or less the same category, and likewise frequently feature various forms of ritualized homosexuality. It just isn't considered acceptable to acknowledge this; being the receptive partner in gay male sex has been considered damaging to masculinity for thousands of years, in at least the West and Japan. I'm not sure 'by far' is appropriate in this context. In the US, for instance, 91% of reported rape victims are female and 9% are male, with estimates usually of about 10% reporting for males and 40% reporting for females, which would yield an actual rate of about 28% of rape victims being male. That's hardly an inconsiderable number. Though I'm not sure how many of those are in prison, however. Where are you getting your numbers? They sound to me like they come from the National Crime Victimization Survey. These are not reports to police, but the result of asking random people if they have been raped. I don't think that they sample prisoners, so they are probably highly biased against prison rape, but should catch some. I presume you refer to, for example, prisons? Anywhere with sex based segregation and artificially enforced proximity (that rules out ostracism.) Yes, I had prisons in mind. I know it's by far the more common in the real world, but MoR!Hogwarts seems to differ significantly in the politics of gender and sexuality from most of real life, and I wanted to investigate how those differences would affect this situation. Since I don't yet have a clear theory of mind regarding why rape occurs or is gender-biased, I was trying to gather explanations from the rest of the peanut gallery. I must have missed the part where we see that MoR!Hogwarts in general differs in gender politics and sexuality than most of real life, except for the "girls can compete in contact sports/armies with boys" bit, but that's a logical consequence of inherent equality of magical power. Lupin and Harry accepted a Peter/Sirius relationship without any squick, but Harry's a child of the Enlightenment (who, by dint of his uber-prodigy-ness likely didn't have jock-type macho-boys or religious conservatives as his formative peer group) and Lupin's a member of a disadvantaged minority himself. Do we have any evidence that someone like Lucius Malfoy would not be about as homophobic as the average medieval baron, of the sort who would teach his son that raping uppity peasant girls with impunity is one of the bennies that comes with "good breeding?" Or that, say, Seamus Finnigan wouldn't have the same kind of teen-boy homophobia/bullying reaction that's fairly common in our world? Where is this number coming from? The incidence rate of male homosexuality is pretty low and guys are generally less likely to go squee over things anyway. I heard it somewhere. WIkipedia says that estimates range from one to twenty percent, and I would expect most estimates to be low because living in a still largely homophobic society biases reporting. Yet often those making the estimates try to compensate for that bias, particularly those who are motivated to report higher statistics.? IMO you aren't missing anything. I found your depiction of Hermione's reaction, and Harry's reaction to her reaction, quite realistic. The other commenters are demanding 12-year-olds to be unrealistically sane. In fact most women I know would behave the same way at 20, and a lot of men too. But 12 year olds are sane - at least relative to what will be going on three years hence. If I were to criticize EY's handling of this stuff, it is that he should have followed canon by putting off dealing with romance issues until the kids are in their third or fourth Hogwarts year. But, if EY has to drag romance into this story, I wish he wouldn't have the heads all of his minor female characters so filled with romantic mush and gossip about same that they don't seem to be much use for any other purpose. Eliezer gives his male characters a variety of idiosyncratic, yet typical young male foibles - twin Weasley pranks, Ron Weasley quiddich mania, Harry's enthusiasm for things military, even Draco's misogyny. I wouldn't mind if he teased his female characters regarding a variety of equally silly and endearing stereotypically female traits. But it seems he can only think of one.. To be honest I would have been almost as embarrassed if Hermione had done it. And probably even more bewildered.. Yes, this is why I didn't want to bring up PUA -- it drags in a host of connotations which were unrelated to my point. Which was simply that loss of dignity in front of the opposite sex is far more painful for males. The PUA-disclaimer was meant to convey that, even though I attributed the difference to the evo-psych reason I gave, I didn't want to derail the conversation with this sort of thing. Ah well.... Not as far as I know, but there definitely should be. I don't think there is any way such a study could not be interesting. There should also be some studies done on The Cheerleader Effect. People kept emphasising that being dropped was safe, and it didn't feel like Hermione was that afraid of it, probably because the scene wasn't from her point of view. Maybe you could portray that a bit more. When Harry was dropped it was quite vivid that he was overcoming his fear. Also it seemed obvious that Harry went out on the roof as part of a plan in order not to lose the game, and I assumed Hermione and Draco would have come to the same conclusion. So of course it wasn't a prank. So when Hermione suggested it was revenge for the date and Harry also had something against Draco, she was just joking about their unpleasant situation. I can see I missed a few things there, but that's how it seemed on my first reading. I noticed later they might think it would have been easier to win without Hermione having the gloves. So it could be somewhat plausible they'd think it was a prank or revenge, given that they don't know Harry's motives and may jump to conclusions. I approve of sane apologies.. Early returns on the poll suggest that I was generalizing from one example. More people find Hermione plausible than not. Admittedly, it's a small sample, but I'm not expecting the results to reverse.. Do you remember where you saw writing that gives you this impression? I've seen PUAs talk a lot about status and fertility signals underlying relationships. I don't think that the consensus is that "there's nothing else," but I've seen some PUAs write stuff that could give that impression, such as Mystery.. If Harry had deliberately zapped Hermione to make her stumble and distract Draco, that would explain everything, but in the text he's running away, dodging their spells. He might have set some sort of trap on the roof, but there's no indication in the text. (We read that play out ourselves.) Have you ever been rock climbing? I assure you that the fact that you're safe, and even the fact that you know you're safe, does not shut off the (untrained) lizard brain, at least not the sort of lizard brain that's afraid of heights.. It doesn't mean anything afterwards, though, and afterwards is when the puzzling scene happens.. I only went climbing less than a dozen times, so I can’t be sure about “getting used to it”, but then again Hermione probably wasn’t used to dropping from castles. When I climb a “simple” vertical wall I don’t get any vertigo or other “lizard-brain complaints” as I had expected. (I rarely get vertigo from heights in general, and among my friends I’m usually the guy closest to any ledge, with everyone telling me to get back, from a safe distance.) However, I did once a climb an indoor route (not sure about terminology) that wasn’t just vertical, it had a kind of lateral transfer to a ledge at the top, and the part where I didn’t see a wall below me all the way down did feel like having butterflies in my stomach despite being tied to a rope. I liked it, but I can see it as a very unpleasant experience for a bookish (i.e., not a tom-boy) 11 years old girl. Technicality: she's 12 by now; in fact, she's been 12 since mid-September. (Yes, I am a nerd.) My own take on this. Hermione didn't have to go on the roof. She could've thought of a different method of taking Harry down. I forget if it has been specified, is there a time limit? They could've waited for harry to get tired walking about on the roof and picked him off later. As such she is responsible for the risks she took going on the wall after Harry. Harry should have shown concern after her fall, but a full on apology does seem a bit thick. And just where did this whole 'unanimously vote that Draco should drop Harry' thing come from? Why would a bunch of girls (or anyone) unanimously vote for something so boring? When you have seen someone voluntarily have himself beaten to a pulp how could it be remotely exciting to see him float down a building in controlled circumstances when a girl had already done it voluntarily without preparation? That doesn't sound remotely like the sort of things girls would suggest. It does seem odd that in the past Harry has made sure that he doesn't moddycoddle Hermione in the battles, realising that she would be insulted if he did and yet now acts in completely the opposite manner. And Hermione and even Draco don't find it strange... This could be a situation where nobody really likes the outcome, but (since it was obviously a very fair punishment) they all treated it with respect (wanting to signal that they liked it). So nobody suggested anything really exciting, figuring that nobody else would go along with it. (There's a name for that fallacy of decision, where everybody votes for their second choice to be nice, since they think that it's the first choice of everybody else.) Or else, they each had a secret plan (to summon Harry to their arms).. Am I the only one who now wants to campaign for gay rights with the slogan "Death Eaters against homophobia!"?. They still don't enjoy the work, even if they find doing it instrumentally rational. They are forced to do it by circumstances, and in a better world they wouldn't be. But in a world with house elves, they are even worse off - they are just unemployed, rather than having the option of taking the job. I doubt more than a trifling amount of the money saved by Hogwarts trickles down to them. I realise that considering the effect of house elves on the job market goes far outside the scope of this problem in the philosophy of consciousness, and much far outside the scope of the Potterverse; but once you start taking into account the welfare of the hypothetical replacements for house elves, there's no real way to dodge the question. For philosophical debates, it's probably better to stick with the pig that wants to be eaten. I pointed out that your argument doesn't contradict Locas's statement that those who don't enjoy the work will be forced to do it, and specifically disclaimed that choosing to do the work regardless might well be rational of them (and hence making them better off). Yet in reply you elaborate in what manner this decision can be rational, as if objecting to what I said. I don't see what you disagree with (besides usage of the word "forced"). Also: They are not unemployed, they choose the next best option available. That. You're right. It's still a strictly worse situation for them, though, since they lose one option and gain nothing.. Sorry, I should have used "non-artificial" or something else; I intended to also include the quoted case of house elves having been created ad hoc. I maintain that house-elves created from scratch are completely different from identical house-elves created by modifying free elves against their will. Lumping the two together will produce non-well-defined moral judgments.. There's also Hayekian arguments-- self-aware agents are apt to accumulate information about their own desires and activities. Systems which allow that information to have an effect seem to be more capable. Is that what you would want to want, given the option, or is that a lizard-brain instinct that gets in the way of your ability to evaluate what's really the right thing to do? I can still interpret that either way. Do you mean that on reflection you realize that you emotionally desire that, or that on reflection you *decide" that that's what's important? Or they could've just created self cleaning houses, so no one is forced to do work. Needs multiply. If houses and clothes were self-cleaning and self-repairing, there would be other, high-end tasks that need taking care of, which may not be automatically fun. taking care of the lawn, cooking (for some people and for most meals is not fun). As your mundane tasks increase due to better technology, it is useful to have someone take them over. It is very useful to have an AI loyal to you. Which chapter was Harry discussing the creation of house elves in? Chaper 42. Thanks. I do remember my eyes glazing over a bit around about then but that's a good point I missed.. Do you think it would be evil to create house elves that honestly enjoy their jobs and situations? You could get them elegantly embroidered little dishtowels clipped into place with stylized sugar tongs made of silver. You can't give them clothes, but no one said anything about not giving them ARMOR. Give them fine spider silk armor, it will be indistinguishable from silk. Hogwarts elves in canon do wear something very much like that.. This is what Eliezer has already done (in the early chapters). If Eliezer switched it up and made Sirius not the traitor it would undermine two of Eliezer's morals: "Conspiracy Theories, paranoia and schizophrenia" and "Courage isn't about being too awesome to need to be scared, it's about doing stuff even when you do have reason to be scared". In canon, it was precisely Peter's fear (greater than that of his friends) which led him to join Voldemort. So while I wouldn't like to see Sirius made into a bad guy (since I side with wrongfully convicted prisoners and don't want them to turn out to be guilty after all), it would be a powerful statement in favour of the power to overcome one's fears if Peter stayed a good guy. It would also be a powerful lesson if Peter was able to see when his loyalty to a certain 'side' was irrational and make a considered choice to do the action that best allowed him to achieve his own goals. But that is exactly the wrong kind of signal for Eliezer to convey! ;) That would be a Family-Unfriendly Aesop (TVTropes). As far as the methods of decision-theoretic rationality go, whatever Peter ultimately wants is OK and not for us to judge; we just consider how he should best go about achieving his goals. But MoR is not just a lesson book in rationality, and I'm happy for works of fiction to give absolute moral lessons too (at least if I agree with them ^_^). TvTropes! Sorry, am I supposed to warn people? Done. I don't know about supposed to but I like to and tend to appreciate it when others do. It reminds me to consider the tendency for humans to be whisked away into an endless depth first search of popular culture references. This is just why I would be shocked if the 'Sirius bad' idea was reversed. The lessons the side plot has already conveyed are solid! Funny, I've got the opposite impression -- that Eliezer was setting up to use Sirius' story as an example of how the obvious explanation is not always right and how reality is allowed to be weird and present you with evidence leading to wrong conclusions. What puzzles me more is how Eliezer will explain the fact that Bill Weasley randomly guessed about Pettigrew and the others being animagi? That problem doesn't go away regardless of whether Sirius was the traitor or not. Did he really travel back in time? Schizophrenic wizards temporarily become seers? Maybe it's another emergent phenomenon? I'd like to see that. Just because I really didn't like it when Bill got messed over like that. Sometimes the world is just cruel for no reason. I didn't mean to suggest that it was unrealistic. It is a far more likely interpretation of events and a rather clever observation. I just didn't like it. It make me sad. :) I know. But I thought Eliezer may have been trying to make a deliberate point, and I wanted to draw it out. Are we sure that, in MoR, they were? That's what I assumed that the secret in Chapter 42 was, until it wasn't. As I recall, In MoR, the Marauder's Map is an ancient artifact that's starting to break down a bit, so "Messers Moony, Padfoot, Wormtail, and Prongs" are not Lupin, Sirius, Peter, and James Potter under animagus-based nicknames. Unless Fred and George are wrong about the Map's origins, though being the master pranksters of the MoRniverse (and canon, for that matter) it seems likely that their judgment would be sound in this case. So, evidence that MoR!Pettigrew, et. al. are not necessarily animagi. I interpreted it that the Messrs put their names on the front of this ancient artefact. From Chapter 25: By the way, this reminds me that the Twins seem to have found a couple of errors on the map: (That's why they might have shown it to Dumbledore, to get it fixed.) In canon, there are important (and only apparent) errors on the map in Book 3, showing Peter Pettigrew and Bartemius Crouch. What are they showing now? I'm assuming that Eliezer makes major changes to canon only when it is neccessary to make the story work and that he will exploit resultant opportunities to mock canon, other fanfiction, conspiracy theories etc. but not go out of his way to create them. Yeah, that's a big assumption. But also, there were hints. Lupin is poor so he is still a werewolf. When discussing the Weasleys' family rat story, Harry mentioned rumors that "Black deliberately tried to get a student killed during his time at Hogwarts". In canon, Black tried to trick Snape into following Lupin when the latter was about to turn during a full moon. So they knew. They still made the map (it was featured in one of the chapters, right?). Well, they didn't have to be animagi to do that, but come on, you can't take away a major aspect of their friendship and have everything else turn out exactly the same (except the teenage gay romance thing). Indeed, there has some skepticism about this expressed in the reviews. Agreed, I was waiting to hear about this and disappointed that it didn't come up.... Oops, I should have been more clear. By "reactionless flight is trivial" I meant in general, not necessarily for persons playing Superman. Wingardium Leviosa is a spell that generates reactionless flight, and it's literally the first thing kids learn. It can be used on persons and has already been employed in combat in MoR (e.g. "Chaotic Twist!"). Then there's other things like Quick Quotes Quills that float and move reactionlessly as they write, brooms, flying carpets, etc.. Since Hermione is a stupendous genius with spells even in Canon, and MoR!Draco is no slouch himself, it just seems likely to me that they would have tried to come up with something. Leviosa on a chair, or Hermione's shoes as a semi-permanent enchantment ("Wait, Draco, I know some 3rd Level spells..."), or something like that. But it's nothing the Rule of Cool and the MST3K Mantra can't fix. :) Consulting the wiki, it does state that "Snape could fly without the use of a broom or any other visible materialistic support. The only other wizard that was known to be able to do this is Lord Voldemort, who most likely taught Snape the method to do so." Interesting. That seems to fit well enough with my theory of 'advanced generalisation of apparition-type magic' so I'll run with that hypothesis until something better or MoR!authoritative comes along. Chapter 41 (So spoiler alert and chapter notification.) (Fun chapter and all... go Neville! But...) Harry is a total wuss. What on earth is he doing going about with grotesque supplication and begging for forgiveness? There obviously isn't any need for Harry to be obnoxious about it. I would expect Hermione to consider that Harry owes him for that one. I would acknowledge a certain symbolic debt and fulfil demands for recompense (within reason) with grace and good cheer. But remorse of the kind Harry was throwing around is something that matters. Sometimes you really do screw up, and that's when you need forgiveness. Throwing out your biggest apologies when you did basically the right thing and would (if you were sane) do roughly the same thing again next time just cheapens the whole thing. Just how much does an apology mean if you go around apologising to people for, roughly speaking, wussing out and letting them beat you? (Mind you, I'm evaluating Harry by the standards of the someone somewhat closer to the age that he acts than to the 11 years old that he technically is. With a few years of marinating in testosterone ahead there is hope for him yet.) I don't think Harry is romantically interested in Hermione, he still thinks kissing is icky, etc. I figured Harry gave Draco and Hermione the potion because he wanted them to triumph over him together, but in a really dramatic challenging way. If their triumph was hard-fought and dramatic they would be more likely to bond over it. Once Draco was friends with a muggleborn, he would be forever lost to the blood-purists, and Harry would have one a great victory. That is what Harry cares about the most. He obviously is willing to lose to let it happen because he engineered the Dramione alliance from the beginning. Really? I thought those two things were entirely compatible. And rather cute. :) Fixed for you. It does seem to happen that way sometimes, doesn't it? But in my observation the only cases where marinating in testosterone makes people worse in the areas of grovelling, supplication, unnecessary apologies and approval seeking are in people who refuse to update based on evidence. We can assume that unlike many nerds Harry is able to make observations from the environment and use them to realise that his strategy doesn't work and go ahead and create a better model of human behaviour and a better strategy. In guys who are good at instinctive instrumental rationality will tend to be prompted by testosterone to, as they say, 'grow a pair'. Simply because experience tells them that the other options just don't work. First you write Then you write I think that you've answered your question. And, in so doing reinforced the core thesis: Harry!Ch41 is a wuss. The overprotective thing can work, particularly when produces displays of dominance or heroism (eg. Christmas Eve dinner) but pointless supplication is the opposite of what he wants to be doing. It totally breaks the flow of the story for me. If I am reading along empathising with the main character and he pulls stunts like this I feel a huge surge of revulsion. This is particularly the case if it seems like the behaviour is presented as a good moral that gives good results rather than "look at the naive character act like a git and then realise he needs to wise up!" Sure, I agree with that. But I don't agree with this: It finally made Harry seem like a real person to me again. I like seeing how MoR!Harry (and MoR!everybody) differs from canon, but sometimes he's a little too perfect. I expect that to happen in a later chapter. Surely EY doesn't think that Harry is acting sensibly? That would be a horror! (Unless Harry has some really devious plot that I don't anticipate, of course.) That's just eh experience I got from chapter 36 (visiting the Grangers), my favourite chapter thus far. I think that's the thing for me. I actually aren't so sure. Some of the other foolish things Harry has done MoR!Author seems to be trying to convey as sensible decisions. For example... the other apology Harry has made to Hermione. When Hermione had panicked and cast finate incantatem on their transfiguration work. The apology itself was reasonable but it seemed like both Harry and MoR!Author were trying to convey that casting finate was a sane thing to do. Not, for example, isolating the room and running to fetch McGonagal. Being responsible doesn't mean turning off your brain at the first sign of danger! ETA: The latest chapter was interesting. Less nauseating but more bizarre. Not. H'm, you may be right. Altough it may yet be accepted that Harry was overreacting. Anyway, it leads to a nice introduction to Remus! (Edit: add ‘although’ in first line, which is really what I meant all along.) The feather-fall potions were protection against a case that wasn't supposed to happen. Harry doesn't take precautions so that he's licensed to need them, he takes precautions so that people don't get hurt. Hermione falling wasn't supposed to happen -- he endangered her for the sake of a game. He raised the stakes farther than they were supposed to go, and it was someone else who could have gotten hurt. Yes, but using feather-fall costs her Quirrell points! That's why she's upset. Or at least, that's one hypothesis that explain the facts. Harry's apology is unnecessary grovelly otherwise. It's a great point and should get mentioned in the text. Even if it's only a minor reason for Hermione's annoyance, it would tie in nicely with the earlier scene of Hermione having trouble knocking on Quirrell's door. Excellent. That is the desirable outcome. If enemies unite against you should sabotage their Quirrell points wherever convenient. "So Granger, how about next time you want something from me you ask nicely for me to participate before you unite with Malfoy?" They tried that, didn't they? All three generals went to Quirrell together to ask for no more traitors. Harry defected. Eh, even if Quirrel points were the problem, Harry's apology is still unnecessarily grovelly. I would go as far as to say the grovelling is worse if the Quirrell points were the problem. Also, I don't think fire is prohibited, so did Harry warn everyone that they shouldn't try eliminating his bungee cords by burning them? Unsurprising, and I don't see it as a problem. Come on - Harry clearly manipulated that situation and needed to lose to make it work. Forcing Draco and Hermione to work together would not have worked nearly as well if they hadn't actually beaten them. Now Hermione doesn't think Draco is evil and irredeemable (especially since he tried to save her), and Draco was actually protecting a mudblood and then shut up and multiplied in order to win. Wouldn't you like to know? I can think of three main categories of reasons: There is a genuinely interesting question here. I know I personally are far less likely to take the advice of or learn lessons from wusses. I am reasonably confident I am not generalising from one example here but for your part does Harry's wussiness have any bearing on how much you expect your own behaviour to be influenced by Harry's example in the MoR parables? This is to what I referred when I said "some arbitrary social agenda" and that I could see as many reasons to orchestrate winning as losing. Deliberately losing isn't something that I find distasteful. In fact it would be impressive, a rare instance of Harry not doing something motivated primarily by his ego. (Did I say that already? Probably. It sounds like something I would say.) Brilliant. And that is one of the reasons (apart from excessive braid tugging) that I stopped reading the Wheel of Time series. And this is despite the fact that the very name "Wedrifid" is from the character I created on the Wheel of Time mud who spent months of real time joining the Gaidin and eventually becoming a ridiculously powerful Warder. That was a lot of fun. All that completely useless status I acquired in an utterly irrelevant social hierarchy! I still use the name 'Wedrifid' in online forums because the Wedrifid persona is more resilient and has a personality that is better adapted to the online discussion context. The "Cameron Taylor" identity works better with, you know, actual flesh and blood people. Do you have a binary wuss or not a wuss model? If Harry makes himself unduly subordinate to Hermione, does that eliminate the effects of him taking on Dumbledore in regards to Snape? No, but neither is it univariate. As with many words 'wuss' means rather a lot of different things depending on the context. Let's leave the word 'wuss' aside for the moment, to look at the implications of those scenarios has on Harry's credibility. I'll also note that subordination isn't always wussy. Grand Viziers are subordinate and far from wussy. In fact, I just got back from playing board games - something that I am extremely good at and in which I make extensive use of subordination to further my goals. Humans are heavily biased towards dominance and I find that a useful trait to exploit. No, neither subordination nor apologies are something that are intrinsically 'wussy'. But back to the question: Being incompetent at achieving social objectives seems like a good reason for using 'genius scheming' instead of standard methods. The fact that he does this is one of the reasons that I sympathize with him as a character. In light of the fanfic's famed/notorious length, this presents some disturbing implications... Haha, I was just going to post the "Harry is Rand al'Thor" theory myself. Clearly the best explanation. Followed closely by "Harry is Richard Rahl". :) Unlike Rand al'Thor, though, Richard Rahl would definitely hit a girl. I'm such a wrong person, I read that as "Draco made friends with a mudblood and then went forth and multiplied in order to win". If Harry is actually in love with Hermione, is apologizing his best move? Would he do better to show more respect for her intelligence? Or is he apologizing for something other than setting things up so that it was likely that she'd be dropped? The 'love' hypothesis was mostly motivated as an explanation in the case that Harry is not making his best move. I'm pretty sure he's apologizing for a whole package of evil regardless of the dropping. I doubt Harry planned that that particular contingency would happen, and so I would also believe that he's genuinely remorseful that she actually fell. I was bringing in Hermione's point of view as a possibly interesting part of the situation. I'm assuming that Harry had a background plan-- to get Draco and Hermione to cooperate, and to feel as though they are on each others' side on a gut level. Even though the "drop me" scene is cute, I'm not convinced it's plausible behavior for Draco. I bet he hasn't had the Anglo/muggle training about not hurting girls, and learning that blood purity isn't true may not have affected his reflexes. Harry's apology may be strategic. Or he may still be learning to navigate between empathy and rationality. Or (not an attractive hypothesis) tropes may be taking over some of the story. ETA: Perhaps that should be empathy-signaling rather than just empathy. Er, who says Draco's grabbing Hermione because she's a girl? He's grabbing her because she's falling off the roof. Fair point. I jumped to a conclusion. On the other hand, it isn't dangerous for her to fall. Draco grew up in the wizarding world. I'd expect him to have a gut-level trust in the potion. Or is Hermione showing excessive trust in the potion because it's labeled as working a certain way, while Draco has more experience with magic that doesn't quite work?

Bruce and Dorothy Brown Collection Inventory of Orders, Decorations, Medals and Flags Donated by Bruce and Dorothy Brown Revised September, 1996 Table of Contents - Introduction - Top of Cabinet - Canada and British Empire/Commonwealth - Drawer 1 - Canada and British Empire/Commonwealth: de Satge - Drawer 2 - Canada and British Empire/Commonwealth: Rennell - Drawer 3 - Canada and British Empire/Commonwealth: Makins - Drawer 4 - Canada and British Empire/Commonwealth: Tudor and Wright - Drawer 5 - Canada and British Empire/Commonwealth: Smith - Drawer 6 - Canada and British Empire/Commonwealth: Penn - Drawer 7 - Canada and British Empire/Commonwealth - Drawer 8 - Belgium - Drawer 9 - France, United States, Malta, United Nations, Turkey - Drawer 10 - Greece, Italy - Drawer 11 - Portugal, Romania, Russia, Finland - Drawer 12 - Germany - Drawer 13 - Flag: Japan - Drawer 14 - Flags: Germany Introduction The Brown collection of orders and decorations and the cabinets which contain them were donated by Bruce and Dorothy Brown 1995-96. The medals represent an eclectic collection of artefacts, selected for their aesthetic and historical interest. The majority are orders and medals that were awarded for both military and diplomatic distinctions to recipients in Canada and British Empire/Commonwealth. The collection also includes orders, decorations and medals from Belgium, Finland, Germany, Greece, Italy, Malta, Portugal, Romania, Imperial Russia, Turkey, the United States and the United Nations. In some cases the Browns have been able to add, as examples, museum copies to their collection. They have also added two WWII German and a Japanese flag. The collection represents an interesting cross-section of the symbols and emblems of the differing traditions to honour acts of dedication, courage and loyalty. It is of artistic interest in that the items are fine examples of the badge-makers' and jewellers' skill. In many cases they show a high degree of craftsmanship in working with metal and enamel. The collection is of considerable interest as an adjunct to the Special Collections military collection. The medals are historically interesting as visible tokens of certain events and persons. In many cases the story of previous ownership is known and every effort has been made to identify that ownership in the display and this inventory. The Brown medal collection is of excellent quality-indicative of the care and trouble necessary to acquire such items, and to ensure that they are genuine. There is a minimum of wear on the medals and badges and the ribbons that support them. Because the orders and decorations are of such high interest and artistic value they are placed on permanent display in the central 12 drawers of the cabinets. The other 6 drawers will be used to introduce other items from the Browns' collection and Special Collections. The cabinets, a gift of the Browns, were designed to provide secure storage and exhibition space for the Browns' and other gift collections. They were custom made to house this collection and were designed by Alan Oliphant of Facilities Management to specifications set by Chris Petter, Special Collections Librarian. Built by Associated Sheet Metal of Victoria with locks provided by Price's Lock and Safe Ltd., the cabinets were finished in oak by the UVic carpenter's shop. A security package was specially installed in the University Archives and Special Collections area to protect them against theft. The display was arranged by Stuart Nicholls. The catalogue for the collection was written and researched by James Thackray, a local medal historian and collector. Overall editing and production is by Chris Petter with help from Bill Thackray. This catalogue follows the exhibit from the top of the cabinet to the bottom and from left to right. We acknowledge that this inventory may contain omissions or errors and we would be pleased to hear from anyone with comments, corrections and or improvements. (Top of Cabinet) Canada and British Empire/Commonwealth Victoria Cross On display: #1, breast decoration-of indeterminate origin Founded by Queen Victoria on January 29, 1856 or February 5, 1856. It is awarded for the most conspicuous bravery or some daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy (Canadian regulations for the award of the VC include in the definition of "enemy", those met in peacekeeping operations). Issued: 1, 351 total 94 to Canadians Example: Lt. Alexander Dunn VC-Charge of the Light Brigade, Crimean War L/Col. Charles C. Meritt VC Sgt. Ernest Smith VC M/Gen. Hon. George R. Pearkes VC, PC, CC, CB, DSO, MC, CD George Cross On display: #2, breast decoration-of indeterminate origin Established by King George VI, September 24, 1940. It is awarded primarily to civilians and as an award for military services confined to actions for which military honours are not normally granted. Specifically, it is for acts of the greatest heroism or of the most conspicuous courage in circumstances of extreme danger. Issued: 10 to Canadians Example Air Commodore A.D. Ross GC, R.C.A.F. The Island of Malta received the George Cross in recognition of conspicuous gallantry and fortitude displayed by the islanders while under devastating bombardment by the German Air Force in World War II. Mr. Boulton's Trafalgar Medal, 1805 On display: #43, white metal issue [image obverse] [image reverse] Mr. Davison's Nile Medal, August 1, 1798 On display: #28, petty officers issue in bronze gilt [image obverse] [image reverse] (Drawer 1) Canada and British Empire/Commonwealth: de Satge The medals of L/Col. Sir Henry Valentine Bache de Satge KCVO, CMG, DSO On display: #4a-#4i de Satge, born in Malvern Wells, Worcestershire, England. Educated at Eton. ADC to the Governor of Western Australia, 1896-97; called to the Bar, 1906; raised and commanded a Battery, 3rd N. Midland Brigade, RFA, 1911; Lt. Col., 1916: served WW I 1916-1919 (DSO, CMG); commanded 298th Brigade, RFA; Private Secretary to First Lord of the Admiralty, 1922-24; Ceremonial Secretary, Colonial Office, 1925-31. Gentleman Usher in Ordinary to the Queen 1952-64; Extra Gentleman Usher in 1964. He died 10 June 1964. #4 b) Companion of the Most Distinguished Order of St. Michael and St. George: - neck badge Established by the Prince Regent (later George IV) acting on behalf of his father King George III on April 27, 1818. The purpose of this award is to recognise distinguished services in foreign affairs and in former colonies. It comes in three classes. Motto: Auspicium Melioris Aevi (Omen of a better age) Example: BGen J.A. Clark, CMG, DSO WW I #4 a) Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order: neck badge and star Established in 1896 by Queen Victoria and is conferred for extraordinary or personal services to the sovereign or the Royal Family. The order comes in five classes and includes three medals (gold, silver and bronze). Examples: Mr. David Harris, MVO, CD-Chief of Protocol in BC Mrs. Judith Larocque, CVO-Secretary to the Governor-General of Canada Breast medals on bar #4 c) Distinguished Service Order (George V) [also see p. 17] Established by Queen Victoria September 5, 1886 as an award for distinguished or meritorious service under fire or under conditions equivalent to service in actual combat. #4 d) 1914-15 Star For service during WWI in a theatre of war between August 5, 1914 and December 31, 1915. Issued: 71,150 to Canadians 2,366,000 total #4 e) British War Medal Awarded to all ranks for service between August 4, 1914-1920 in a theatre of war. Issued: 427,993 to Canadians 6,500,000 total #4 #4 g) King George V Jubilee Medal, 1935 Awarded to mark the 25th year of the accession of King George V to the Throne. Issued: 7,500 to Canadians 85,000 total #4 h) King George VI Coronation Medal, 1937 Awarded to commemorate the coronation of King George VI on May 12, 1937. Issued: 10,089 to Canadians 90,000 total #4 i) Queen Elizabeth Coronation Medal, 1953 Awarded to commemorate the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II on June 2, 1953. Issued: 12, 500 to Canadians 138,214 total (Drawer 2) Canada and British Empire/Commonwealth: Rennell The medals of James Rennell of Rodd, PC, GCB, GCMG, GCVO James Rennell, GCB, GCMG(cr. 1915), GCVO, 1st. Baron, (cr. 1933), of Rodd, Herefordshire. Educated at Haileybury; Balliol Coll. Oxford (BA); Attaché Diplomatic Service, 1883, and various other diplomatic posts; transferred to Cairo, 1894, acting Agent and Consul-General on various occasions; HM's Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary to Sweden, 1904-08; HM's Ambassador to the Court of Italy, 1908-19; Conservative MP 1928-32. Died 1941. Knight Grand Cross of the Most Distinguished Order of St. Michael and St. George On Display #44, collar, sash, sash badge, and star Established by the Prince Regent acting on behalf of his father King George III on April 27, 1818. The purpose of this award is to recognise distinguished services in foreign affairs and in the former colonies. Awarded in three classes. (N.B. the amusing acronyms of this order as follows: CMG-Call Me God, KCMG-Kindly Call Me God, GCMG-God Calls Me God) Motto: Auspicium Melioris Aevi (Omen of a better age) Examples: Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier, GCMG-former Prime Minister of Canada Rt. Hon. Sir Robert Borden, GCMG-former Prime Minister of Canada (Drawer 3) Canada and British Empire/Commonwealth: Makins The medals of Brigadier-General Sir Ernest Makins, KBE, CB, DSO On display: #40 a-#40 k Makins, born in London, 14 October, 1889, spent most of his military career in the Royal Dragoons. During the Boer War, he participated in the Relief of Ladysmith and the actions at Colenso, Spion Kop, Vaal Kranz and Pieter's Hill (DSO). During WW I he saw service in France and Belgium as a Brigade Commander of the 6th Cavalry (CB). He was Colonel of the Royal Dragoons, 1931- 1946 and MP from 1922-1945 (KBE, cr. 1938). He died on 18 May 1959. #40 a) Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire - neck badge and star Established by King George V on June 4, 1917, as an award for distinguished services. The highest two classes, entail admission to knighthood. Awarded in five classes with a military and a civil division. Motto: For God And The Empire Example: Sir Frederick Banting, KBE, MC-Nobel Prize for Medicine, 1934 #40 b) Companion of The Most Honourable Order of the Bath (military) neck badge Established by George I on May 18, 1725. A military order until 1847 when Queen Victoria decreed that it be also awarded for civil merit. It is recognised that the first class is considered the highest military honour to be obtained. The order has three classes and a civil and military division. Motto: Tria Juncta in Uno (Three United in One) Extract from Robert Werlich's book, Orders and Decorations of All Nations: "The History of the Order of the Bath,... by James C. Risk relates that Lady Hamilton whose husband Sir William Hamilton, Ambassador to Naples, possessed the Bath, commented after [ Lord ] Nelson also received this decoration, that her triangular (Nelson-Hamilton) household could be referred to as 'Tria Juncta in Uno'" Examples: M/Gen. Hon. George R. Pearkes, VC, PC, CC, CB, DSO, MC, CD Rt. Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald, GCB-first Prime Minister of Canada Breast Medals on Bar #40 c) Distinguished Service Order (Victoria) Established by Queen Victoria September 5, 1886 as an award for distinguished or meritorious service under fire, or under conditions equivalent to service in actual combat. #40 d) Queen's South Africa Medal (has erased 1899-1900 on reverse) Awarded for service during the Boer War between October 11, 1899 and May 31, 1902. Bars were awarded for various battles and actions. Example: Lt. E. J.G. Holland VC-Royal Canadian Dragoons The bars seen with this medal are as follows: Cape Colony, Transvaal, Laings Nek, Relief of Ladysmith, Orange Free State, Tugela Heights. #40 e) Kings South Africa Medal (Edward VII) Awarded for those who served in South Africa on or after January 1, 1902 and had completed 18 months service before June 1, 1902. Always issued with the Queen's South Africa Medal. #40 f) 1914 Star with bar Sanctioned April, 1917 for service between August 5, 1914 and midnight November 22/23 1914 in Belgium and France. Awarded to all men and women of the British and the Indian Expeditionary Forces (including Civilian doctors, nursing sisters, nurses and others who were employed with military hospitals). Example: 160 Canadians received this medal and all were members of the 2nd Canadian Stationary Hospital #40 g) British War Medal Awarded to all ranks for service between August 4, 1914-1920 in a theatre of war. Issued: 427,993 to Canadians 6,500,000 total #40 #40 i) Queen Victoria's Jubilee Medal, 1897 It was awarded to members of the royal family, royal household, royal and distinguished guests attending celebrations June, 1897 for the 60th Anniversary of the reign of Queen Victoria. Issued: 200 + to Canadians 338,796 total #40 j) King George V Jubilee Medal, 1935 Awarded to mark the 25th year of the accession of King George V to the Throne, May 6, 1935 Issued 7,500 to Canadians 85,000 total #40 k) King George VI Coronation Medal, 1937 Awarded to commemorate the coronation of King George VI on May 12, 1937. Issued: 10,089 to Canadians 90,000 total (Drawer 4) Canada and British Empire/Commonwealth: Tudor and Wright The Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem On display: #36, Knight of Grace or Justice neck badge and star Originally founded in the 11th century but reconfirmed by Queen Victoria May 4, 1888. Anyone can be admitted to the order at any level. It is awarded to persons who are doing or are prepared to do good work for the order. The order has five classes. Example: Rt. Hon. Vincent Massey CC, CH, GCStJ, CD-former Governor-General of Canada A decoration of Admiral Sir Frederick Charles Tudor, (1918) 3rd Sea Lord. Tudor, KCMG (cr. 1918) was born 1863. Third Sea Lord, 1914-17; Commander-in-Chief, China Station, 1917-19; Admiral, 1921; President of the Royal Naval College, Greenwich, 1920-22; retired list 1922. He died 16 April, 1946. #39 Knight Companion of the Most Distinguished Order of St. Michael and St. George. On display: #39, neck badge and star Established by the Prince Regent acting on behalf of his father King George III on April 27, 1818. The purpose of this award is to recognise distinguished services in foreign affairs and in former colonies. Awarded in three classes. Motto: Auspicium Melioris Aevi (Omen of a better age) Examples: L Gen. Sir R.E.W. Turner, VC, KCB, KCMG, DSO (WWI) and, the highest class. Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier, GCMG-former Prime Minister of Canada Rt. Hon. Sir Robert Borden, GCMG-former Prime Minister of Canada Knights Bachelor On display: #10 This award was founded by the Imperial Society of Knights Bachelor in 1908. It is not an order but it does entitle the recipient to the title of "Sir". It is awarded by the reigning monarch. Example: Sir Peter Ustinov Kt, CBE-actor The medals of Lt. Col. Rev. William Thomas Wright CIE, VD On display: #37 a-#37 e Wright (CIE, 1925) was Principal of Laurence Royal Military School, Ghora Gali, Punjab, India. He was Honorary Canon of Lahore; Late Commandant, Punjab Rifles. #37 a) Companion of the Most Eminent Order of the Indian Empire-neck badge Established by Queen Victoria to commemorate the beginning of her reign as Empress of India, January 1, 1878. It was an award for individuals who did not qualify for the Order of the Star of India. It came in three classes. Motto: Imperatricis Auspiciis (Under the protection of the Empress) #37 b) British War Medal Awarded to all ranks for service between August 4, 1914-1920 in a theatre of war. Issued: 427,993 to Canadians 6,500,000 total #37 c) Delhi Durbar 1911 Awarded to commemorate the accession of King George V as Emperor of India. The reverse has an interesting Hindi inscription: "Court of George the Fifth, Emperor of India, King and Ruler of the Country of the English, Delhi 1911". The "Durbar" is the Indian name for the ceremony acknowledging the King as Emperor. #37 d) King George V Jubilee Medal, 1935 Awarded to commemorate the 25th year of the accession of King George V to the throne. #37 e) Volunteer Officers Decoration (Indian Volunteer Forces), breast medal Established by Royal Warrant July 25, 1892 by Queen Victoria, for 18 years long and meritorious service. (Drawer 5) Canada and British Empire/Commonwealth: Smith A) Letter of congratulation on the award of the DFC, signed by Vincent Massey, Canadian High Commissioner, London, 1944. B) Certificate for the award of the operational wings signed by Air Marshal L. S. Breadner, CB, DSC Distinguished Flying Cross On display: #8, to P/O John Stewart Madill Smith, DFC-No. 434 Sqn. RCAF (presented by George VI)-see papers/clips Established By King George V on June 3, 1918. Awarded to Officers and Warrant Officers for acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty performed whilst flying in active operations against the enemy. Issued: 4,460 to Canadians Example: Squadron Leader Robert W.R. Day, DFC, RCAF - Burma, No. 67 Sqn. RAF C) Letter of congratulations on the DFC to S. M. Smith's brother signed by A.L. Macdonald, Acting Minister of National Defence for Air. D) Letter of congratulations on the DFC from Air Marshal L.S. Breadner, CB., DSC E) Letter of congratulations on the DFC from Air Vice Marshal S.M. McEwen, CB, MC, DFC (Drawer 6) Canada and British Empire/Commonwealth: Penn The medals of Major H.A. Penn, OBE-Royal Army Ordnance Corps. A) Note from The Central Chancery of the Order of Knighthood to accompany the warrant of the award of the OBE The medals of Major H.A. Penn, OBE. On display: #32 a-#32 d #32 a) Officer of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (1st type, military) Awarded for the Murmansk Command, North Russia June 3, 1919. Established by King George on June 4, 1917 as an award for distinguished services. The highest two classes entail admission into knighthood. Awarded in five classes with a military and a civil division. Motto: For God And This Empire Examples: The Beatles in the 5th class (MBE's) Sir Frederick Banting KBE, MC-Nobel Prize for Medicine 1934 Sir Edward Wentworth Beatty, GBE-President of the CPR Mr. Edwin (Honest Ed) Mirvish, OC, CBE-Restored the Old Vic Theatre #32 b) British War Medal Awarded to all ranks for service between August 4, 1914-1920 in a theatre of war. Issued: 427,993 to Canadians 6,500,000 total #32. (Awarded for North Russian Expeditionary Force). Issued: 351,289 to Canadians 6,500,000 total #32 d) Order of St. Stanislas breast badge (Imperial Russian) Awarded to Major Penn for services in Russia by the White Russians. It is probably of French manufacture because the pre-1917 issues of this award were in gold and of superior workmanship. Originally founded by King Stanislas Augusta Poniatowsky of Poland on May 7, 1765 and incorporated with Russian orders from 1831- 1917. Came in three classes and the 1st class came with the right to hereditary nobility. Occasionally the star of the 1st class was awarded with the 2nd class (to foreigners). B) Certificate for the award of a Mention-in-Dispatches (oak leaf on Victory medal ribbon) C) Warrant granting OBE to H.A. Penn, signed by George V (Drawer 7) Canada and British Empire/Commonwealth Crimean War Medal On display: #59, breast medal with Sebastapol bar Awarded to the British Forces in the Crimean War, March 28, 1854-March 30, 1856. Bars were awarded for the battles of Alma, Balaclava, Inkermann and Sebastapol. Extract from Major L. L. Gordon's book, British Battles and Medals: "The whole story of the campaign reads more like comic opera than war. Lord Cardigan, for instance commanded the famous Light Brigade from his yacht Dryad lying in Balaclava Bay, on which he dined and slept every night by permission of the Commander-in-Chief. He came ashore on the morning of the 25th October , led the famous charge the length of the North Valley up to the Russian Guns, left his men there, and walked his horse back and returned to his yacht! The orders to charge were not his, so, having obeyed them, and having not the slightest use for his divisional Commander, Lord Lucan, or his Commander-in-Chief, he washed his hands of the whole affair! Subsequently, in true British fashion, he became a hero, Inspector General of Cavalry, a KCB, and Colonel of the 11th Hussars." Arctic Medal 1818-1855 On display: #29, first issue breast medal (Victoria) The medal was awarded for notable advances for arctic expeditions. It was also the first in a series of "Arctic and Polar Medals". The first issue was sanctioned January 30, 1857. The medals were issued unnamed. Many ships took part in voyages to the Arctic regions, and their crews were eligible to receive this medal. Issued: 33 medals to the crew of the Prince Albert, searching for the Franklin Expedition 187 medals to the Hudson's Bay Company , 1486 total Tibet Medal On display: #38, breast medal to Cooly Jaburaips Suner, Supply and Transport Corps Sanctioned February 1, 1905 for those who took part in the Tibet Mission and to troops accompanying it, who served at or beyond Silgari between December 13, 1903-September 24, 1904. The following is an extract from Major L. L. Gordon's book, British Battles and Medals: "In July 1903, a trade Mission, under Colonel Younghusband, was sent by the Indian Government to meet the Tibet and Chinese officials in Gyantse. This Mission met with a hostile reception on the way and when it arrived at Tanu it was advised by the Tibetan general to return to Quangtong to avoid blood-shed. This Colonel Younghusband refused but ordered the disarmament of the Tibetan troops. On 31st March, 1904, the Tibetans fired on the column and suffered heavily for doing so. On the 8th of April, the 32 Sikh Pioneers stormed the Red Idol Gorge. A force under General Macdonald refused to negotiate, so that it became obvious that the way would have to be cleared right through to Lhassa. Colonel Brander was sent from Gyantse with a force to clear the Karo Pass, which he did on 6th of May." In July, 1904, Colonel Younghusband stated that the Mission would proceed to Lhassa to demand an apology. Preceded by General Macdonald's force, the Mission arrived on the 3rd August, and a treaty was signed in the Portala Lhassa (which is depicted on the reverse of the medal)." Canada General Service Medal 1866-1870 On display: #30, breast medal with bars for Fenian Raid 1866 and Red River 1870. The medal was awarded to members of the Canadian and Imperial forces who fought against the Fenians (1866 and 1870) and Riel's first rebellion, in the Red River expedition (1870). The medal was issued to those that were on: a) active service in the field; or b) served as a guard at any point where an attack from the enemy was expected; or c) men detailed for some specific service. The following is an extract from John Blatherwick's book, Orders, Decorations and Medals of Canada: Gary (Winnipeg), leaving Toronto on May 14 and reaching Fort Gary on August 24, 1870. They captured Louis Riel and prevented a Fenian raid on Manitoba." Examples: L/Col Samuel Peters Jarvis, CMG L/Col Louis Adolph Cassault, CMG Issued: 15,300 to Canadians 16,668 total North West Canada Medal, 1885 On display: #46, breast medal to Colour Sergeant John McLaren, Queen's Own Rifles (also a badge "One Mile Championship of Ontario, 1883") This particular medal was issued to McLaren as a member of General Middleton's First Column, under the direct command of Middleton during the Riel Rebellion. Sanctioned July 24, 1885 by the Canadian government for issue on September 18, 1885. The medal was issued unnamed. Awarded to troops that took part in the suppression of the Riel Rebellion. Also, a grant of 320 acres and 80 dollars in script was given to the troops that participated in the campaign. Issued: 5,650 Distinguished Service Order On display: #5, breast decoration (George V) Founded by Queen Victoria on September 5, 1886 as an award to officers of the Royal Navy and Army. It is awarded for meritorious or distinguished service in war. Furthermore, it is generally awarded to an individual in command, above the rank of major; although, it is also awarded to officers of and below the rank of major for acts of great valour. Issued: 1220 to Canadians Examples: Lt. Percy Girourd, DSO-Royal Engineers (Sudan) L/Col. James Riley Stone, DSO and 2 bars-M.C. PPCLI (2nd Bar for Korea) Air Commodore J.E. Fauquier, DSO and 2 bars, DFC L/Cmdr J.H. Stubbs, D.S.O., R.C.N. Canadian Centennial Medal, 1967 On display: #31, breast medal Designed to Commemorate the Centennial of Canada's Confederation in 1867. Canadians were recommended for the award by governments and associations. Example: L/Gen. William Carr, CMM, DFC, CD Issued: 29,500 On display: #34, The medals of Gunner J. McWalters 32nd Field Battery, Royal Artillery On display: #34 a) and #34 b) breast medals, silver issues #34 a) Queens Sudan Medal 1896-1897 The medal was awarded in 1899 to all those who participated in the recapture of the Sudan, 1896-1897. It was awarded in silver and bronze. #34 b) Khedive's Sudan Medal 1896-1908 Sanctioned February 12, 1897 by the Khedive of Egypt as an award to British troops to commemorate re conquest of Dongola Province in Sudan. The bar is Khartoum September 2, 1898. and was awarded for the Battle of Omdurman. Though the battle followed immediately, it is interesting to find a bar labelled differently than for the battle. The inscription on the obverse of the medal reads as follows: "Abbas Hilmi The Second, and 1314 Hegira" General Gordon's Star for Khartoum (1884 ?) On display: #22 silver issue During the time of the siege of Khartoum, in order to raise morale, Gordon authorized a star to be cast for distribution to his officers and men. Its design was based on the Turkish Order of Medjidie. It was cast in sand which demonstrates the circumstances of its manufacture. Distinguished Service Cross On display: #6, breast decoration (George VI) Founded by King Edward VII in June 1901 and reconsolidated by King George V in October 1914. It is awarded to junior and senior officers of the navy and Royal Marines. (Action against the enemy). Issued: 199 to Canadians Example: V/Adm. Andrew Collier, CMM, DSC, CD-HMCS Cayuga Military Cross (George V) On display: #7, breast decoration to Lt. S. Hart, Ypres 1917 Established December 31, 1914 as an award for the army, between the ranks of major and warrant officer, for gallant and distinguished service. Issued: 3,727 to Canadians Example: Capt. Norman Buchanan , MC and two bars-RCA WW II Fleet Air Arm pilot wings On display: #49, sample for the Royal Navy (Elizabeth II) Royal Flying Corps pilot wings On display: #54, issued during WW I-of indeterminate origin Blazer Badge of the Royal Naval Air Service On display: #55 Royal Canadian Air Force pilot wings On display: #62, Elizabeth II issue-worn on left breast Royal Canadian Air Force pilot wings On display: #53, George VI issue-worn on left breast Mr. Boulton's Trafalgar Medal, 1805 On display: #43, white metal issue This medal was given by Mr. Boulton, a manufacturer of Birmingham to the survivors of the Battle of Trafalgar. Around the edge is the inscription "FROM M: BOULTON TO THE HEROES OF TRAFALGAR" It was given in silver, bronze-gilt, bronze and white metal according to the rank of the recipient. Mr. Davison's Nile Medal, August 1, 1798 On display: #28, petty officers issue in bronze gilt This medal was the personal award from Nelson's prize agent Mr. Davison, to the officers and men present at the Battle of the Nile. Admirals and captains received it in gold, other officers in silver, petty officers in bronze gilt and remainder in bronze. Air Force Cross On display: #9, breast decoration (George VI) Established June 3, 1918 by King George V as an award to officers and warrant officers for an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying but not in active operations against the enemy. Issued: 538 to Canadians Example: W/C Howard Allan Morrison DSO, DFC, AFC, No. 426 Sqn. RCAF Miniature medals group On display: #42, medals worn for evening dress Distinguished Service Order, Military Cross, 1914-15 star, British War Medal, Victory Medal with Mention-in-Dispatches. (Drawer 8) Belgium Order of Leopold On display: #19, Commander (civilian)-neck) Order of Leopold II On display: #50, Grand Cross-sash, badge, and star II On display: #35, Commander-neck badge On display: #27, Officer (civilian)-breast) (Drawer 9) France, United States, Malta, United Nations, Turkey France Legion of Honour On display: #15, Commander-neck badge Established by Napoleon Bonaparte on May 19, 1802. It is awarded to French citizens and foreigners, male or female, for outstanding services on behalf of France. The order has five classes. Example: Former Quebec Premier Rene Levesque-Grand Officer The late Jean Paul Vinay of The University of Victoria-Chevalier National Order of Merit On display: #16, Commander-neck badge Established December 3, 1963 by President Charles De Gaulle. It is awarded for outstanding social, economic or military merit not qualifying for the Legion of Honour. The order is awarded in five classes. Croix de Guerre (Cross of War) On display: #25, breast decoration WW I issue Awarded to any member of the French armed forces who are mentioned for outstanding bravery or ability in dispatches by a high ranking officer. United States of America Legion of Merit On display: #17, Chief Commander-star and lapel badge Established by an act of Congress, July 20 , 1942, as an award for meritorious conduct.. It has four classes. It is awarded to foreigners in the first three classes and to members of the United States Armed Forces in the fourth class. Examples: Admiral Sir John Cunningham-First Sea Lord (UK) Air Marshal Robert Leckie, DSO, DSC, DFC. R.C.A.F. (Commander) Malta Sovereign Military Hospitaler Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, of Rhodes and of Malta On display: #14, Knight of Justice neck badge The Catholic Order of Malta is the oldest order of Knighthood continually in existence. The Order of St. John was established in Jerusalem in the eleventh century by an Italian layman named Gerard who, with the permission of the Caliph of Egypt, built a hospital for the care of sick and needy pilgrims in the Holy Land. Today the order is in Rome, under the protection of the Vatican. It is awarded for good work in the order and for those who are prepared to do good work for the order. The order has three classes. United Nations United Nations Cap Badge On display: #61, standard issue for UN peace-keepers Turkey Order of Medjidie On display: #21, Commander-neck badge Founded August 1852 as an award for special services to the state either civil or military. Five classes. Motto: Zeal, Devotion, and Loyalty-1268 (1852) (Drawer 10) Greece, Italy Greece Order of the Phoenix On display: #11, Royal Issue, Grand Commander-neck badge and star Founded May 13, 1926 as a republican order reserved for foreigners. After the restoration of the monarchy in 1936 it was recognised by the kingdom. It is awarded to those who distinguish themselves in public administration, science, arts and letters. The order has a civil and a military division. Italy Constantinian Order of St. George of the Two Sicilies On display: #12, Grand Officer-neck badge, star, miniature, lapel pin Founded, some say, in 313 A.D. or by Byzantine Emperor Isaac II in 1190 AD. It is awarded for outstanding civil or military merit. The order comes in five classes. (N.B. The President of Italy officially recognised the order by a decree (of July 20, 1963), and authorised Italian citizens to wear its decoration without restriction.) It is presently awarded by the Grand Master Prince Ferdinando di Borbone, Duke of Castro and head of the Royal House of the Two Sicilies. (Drawer 11) Portugal, Romania, Russia, Finland Republic of Portugal Military Order of Christ On display: #13, Commander (Type II)-neck badge and star Founded August 14, 1318 by King Denis and confirmed by Pope John XXII in 1319, who reserved the right of the Holy See to nominate Knights as well as by Portugal. It is awarded for civil merit and may now be conferred on Portuguese citizens and on foreigners for outstanding services to the Republic. The order comes in five classes. Kingdom of Romania Order of the Star On display: #47, Grand Cross-sash badge and star Established by King Carol I as an award for civil and military merit. It was awarded to foreigners as well as Romanians. Five classes. Motto: In Fide Salus (Salvation lies in Loyalty) Order of the Crown On display #26, 4th Class with swords (Type II) breast badge Established by King Carol on March 14, 1881 as an award for exceptional services to the state. The order has five classes. Motto: Prin Noi Insine (By ourselves) Imperial Russia Order of St. Stanislas On display: #51, star of the Grand Cross and or 2nd class star Originally founded by King Stanislas Augusta Poniatowsky of Poland on May 7, 1765 and incorporated with Russian orders from 1831- 1917. It came in three classes and the 1st class conferred the right to hereditary nobility. Occasionally the star of the 1st class was awarded with the 2nd class to foreigners. Motto: Praemiando Incitat (He encourages reward) Finland Order of the White Rose On display: #18, Commander Grand Cross-sash and sash badge Established February 28, 1919, as an award for military and civil merit, by the Regent, Baron Carl Gustav Mannerheim. Awarded in 6 classes, one a medal. Motto: Isanmaan hyvaksi (For the Good of the Fatherland) Example: HM Queen Elizabeth II (Drawer 12) Germany Royal Order of the Guelph On display: #60, breast badge-of indeterminate origin Founded by the Prince Regent, later King George IV of England, on August 12, 1815 and revised on May 20, 1841 as King Ernst August of Hanover. The order came in four classes and was awarded for military and civil merit. Motto: Nec aspera terrent (Nor do difficulties daunt) Iron Cross 1st Class (Nazi Germany) On display: #33, breast cross War time decoration awarded for exceptional bravery in the face of the enemy and for outstanding service in the leadership of troops. Order Pour le Merite On display: #20, neck badge-of indeterminate origin Founded May 12, 1667 as the Ordre de la Generosite by Elector Friedrich (later Friedrich I of Prussia). It was an award for civil and military merit and was the Prussian equivalent of the Victoria Cross. The award came in 2 classes (military) and 1 class (civil). Today the civil division is still awarded by the German Republic. (also known as the "Blue Max") Examples: Hermann Göring (WW I) Luftwaffe Pilot/Observer Qualification Badge On display: #58, of indeterminate origin Group of Seven Medals on Bar On display: #23 a-#23 #23 a) Iron Cross 2nd Class Re-instituted by Kaiser Wilhelm II August 5, 1914. It was awarded for bravery in battle and came in three classes. Examples: Adolf Hitler Paul von Hindenburg-last President of Weimar, Germany #23 b) Friedrich August Medal Established in 1905 as an award for personnel not above the rank of sergeant-major (Feldwebel) for meritorious service in war and peace. #23 c) Cross of Honour for the Great War 1914-1918 Established July 13, 1934 by President von Hindenburg as an award for front line fighters. Decrees up to 1944 allowed Austrians, Sudeten Germans, Memellanders and others to receive this medal. #23 d) War Commemorative Medal (Austrian Republic) Established December 21, 1932 for all ranks who served in WW I. The crossed swords was for front line troops, prisoners of war and those wounded. #23 e) Cross of Merit for War Aid, 1916 (Prussian) Established as a decoration for special merit to German war aid activities, for men and women, without distinction of rank. #23 f) War Commemorative Medal For Combatants (Hungary) Established May 26, 1929 by the Regent, Admiral Horthy. It was awarded to those troops who participated in the 1st World War. #23 g) War Medal 1915-1918 (Kingdom of Bulgaria) Established December 9, 1935 by King Boris III. It was awarded to all ranks who served during WW I. Group of Five Medals on Bar On display: #24a-#24e #24 a) Iron Cross 2nd class (Prussian) Re-instituted by Kaiser Wilhelm II August 5, 1914. It was awarded for bravery in battle and came in three classes. Examples: Adolf Hitler Paul von Hindenburg-last President of Weimar Germany #24 b) Order of the Lion of Zahringen (Baden) Founded by the Grand Duke Karl Friedrich of Baden December 26, 1812 as an award for civil or military merit. The order came in five classes. Motto: Für Ehre und Wahrheit (For Honour and Truth) #24 c) Cross of Honour for the Great War 1914-1918 Established July 13, 1934 by President von Hindenburg as an award for front line fighters. Decrees up to 1944 allowed Austrians, Sudeten Germans, Memellanders and others to receive this medal. #24 d) Army Service Medal Class II #24 e) Faithful Service Cross Decoration Established by the Nazi government for 40 years service in the public service. NSDAP Senior Official Arm band On display: #57 German Red Cross Decoration 1st Class On display: #64, Nazi issue, of indeterminate origin Founded by the German Red Cross in 1922 and under the authority of the President of the German Red Cross. The German Cross 1st Class On display: #45, breast star worn on right breast pocket Awarded for those who already held the Iron cross 1st and 2nd classes, and who continued to distinguish themselves in action for a minimum of seven times. Luftwaffe Wireless Operator/Air Gunner Qualification Badge On display: #56 Pilot Badge for WW I (Prussian) On display: #48, pinned on the breast pocket General Officers (army) Collar patches On display: #63, WW II issue Nazi political Leader Collar Tabs. On display #52 Knights Cross with Oak-leaves and Swords (German Republic) On display: #41, neck badge War time decoration awarded for exceptional bravery in the face of the enemy and for outstanding service in the leadership of troops. This example is a "denazified" replacement medal issued after 1957. (Drawer 13) Battle Flag of Japan On display: #66 A Rising Sun battle flag, with Shinto prayers. These flags were sought-after souvenirs by Allied troops. Names were the names of soldiers memorialised on the flag. (Drawer 14) Nazi German Flags #65 a) National war flag (Reichskriegsflagge), 1935-1945 (Iron Cross in the canton next to the hoist). Used by all armed forces -- by the Navy as their ensign #65 b) Reich service flag, 1935-1945 In the canton, the national "eagle" emblem of the Third Reich. (This flag was authorized for use by certain naval ships and units not generally permitted to fly the national war flag.) Related Links

tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-87748072266896129752013-05-18T20:15:24.607+10:00Life & Other Crisesa blog by Kerri SackvilleKerri Sackville FancypantsSo the other day I somehow bought a baby on a whim. (Not a human baby, of course. I wouldn't pay money for one of those. [Though I may occasionally pay someone to take one of mine away.])<br /><br />No, I bought a furry baby. A little rescue kitten. And I didn't mean to buy her. I truly didn't. I had intended to pick up my son from school and drive him directly home. But my friend <a href="" target="_blank">Lana </a>had mentioned over breakfast that the vet near my home had some rescue kittens, and a sudden, feline madness took over.<br /><br />"Can I make a quick stop?" I asked my son impulsively.<br /><br />"Okay," he said. "Do you need to go to the shops?"<br /><br />"No, not shops," I said, and parked the car. The kittens were calling to me. They were girls, I just knew it. My Princess Fancypants was inside;">Seriously - could YOU resist this face?</td></tr></tbody></table><br />My son looked confused as we walked into the vet. "Mum, what are we..."<br /><br />"I hear you have rescue kittens?" I asked the receptionist.<br /><br />"NO," he said. "No! REALLY?" (My son, that is. The receptionist said "Yes!" as I knew she would. Because I could see the kittens beside the door.)<br /><br />""We have two little girls here at the moment," she said, and I looked over and there I saw my baby.<br /><br />She was tiny, and cute, with four little white socks. She had huge green eyes, and a Fancypants face.<br /><br />"Penelope!" I cried, and I still don't know why. I don't like the name Penelope; at least, I didn't before. But she was totally Penelope. It may as well have been written on her collar. (But she didn't have a collar. She was way too small.)<br /><br />So Princess Penelope Fancypants has come to live with us. And already we know quite a bit about her. She likes tuna, but definitely doesn't like chicken. She likes her bouncy ball, but thinks the toy mouse is lame. She likes her scratching post but refuses to scratch it. And if she wants to sleep under the couch all day then she's damn well going to do it and there's nothing we can do but RESPECT.<br /><br />We welcome the newest member of our family. We will serve you, Penelope, and you own us already.<br /><br />But if anyone else ever casually mentions a rescue animal, I'm going to block my ears, hum, and drive on.<br /><br />Kerri Sackville Is Going On With My Hands?The other day, rummaging in Places I Probably Shouldn't Rummage, I came across;">I am 16 and wearing pearls.</td></tr></tbody></table.<br /><br /.<br /><br /.<br /><br />But all of that pales into significance next to my hands. Because... <i>what the fuck is going on with my;">This is not the kind of gesture nice medical receptionists make</td></tr></tbody></table).<br /><br />So honestly, people, I have no idea who I am in this picture. A flower child? A medical receptionist? A naughty, naughty girl? Or just a confused 16 year old who paired a salmon shirt with a rude gesture and still passed it off as sweet?<br /><br />Whoever I am, though, I am glad those days are over. For one thing, I don't wear polyester anymore.<br /><br />And for another thing, if I'm going to make a rude gesture, I'm going to make damn sure I know I'm doing it.Kerri Sackville Am Anxiety<b>Watch this video.</b><br /><br />If you have ever experienced anxiety, if you have ever thought you have experienced anxiety, if you have anyone in your family or circle of friends who experience anxiety, <i>watch this video.</i><br /><i><br /></i>This. This is what anxiety feels like.<br /><br />This morning I co-launched this new Anxiety Awareness initiative by Beyond Blue alongside the amazing Garry McDonald*.<br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" height="200" src="" width="200" /></a></div><br />I couldn't be prouder to be part of such an incredible campaign.<br /><br />When I released <a href="" target="_blank">The Little Book of Anxiety</a> a year ago, my primary aim was to help to lift the stigma associated with being an anxious person, and to show other sufferers that they were not alone.<br /><br />But there is only so much that one little author can do with one little book. This campaign will do this a thousandfold.<br /><br />Please watch this two minute film and share it. And please, if it resonates with you, seek help.<br /><br />There is hope. There is light. There is a life away from anxiety.<br /><br />Sending love to you all.<br /><br />*Who later accepted a lift home with my mum and I, which was one of the more surreal moments of my career to date.<br /><br /><iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" src="" width="560"></iframe>Kerri Sackville Won't Believe What I Ate Last Night...Last night I ate a stock cube. Seriously. And not one of those small Maggi ones, either. I ate a giant, squishy Massel chicken stock cube, straight out of the wrapper. It was horrible. I mean, chicken stock is great in soups and casseroles, but pretty gross by itself on a fork. But I couldn't help it. I was craving that stock cube like the deserts crave the rain. (Except that the stock cube also made me crave rain. Or at least water.)<br /><br />Now, <strike>fat</strike> embarrassed to go into the store, and had to learn how to make my own. <br /><br />However, I am certain I am not pregnant. This is because:<br /><ol><li>My kitchen has been surgically closed;</li><li>I am not nauseous and dizzy and weeping for no reason at all;</li><li>See number 1.</li></ol>No, I am not pregnant. In fact, I am as far as one can get from pregnancy without being menopausal. I am craving weird foods not because I am pregnant, but because I am not. <br /><br />Yes, once gain PMS rears up its ugly head. It happens all the time. Once a month, actually. Every. Single. Bloody. Month.<br /><br /..... DINNER</td></tr></tbody></table><br /. <br /><br />You'd be in pain too if you'd been eating stock cubes.<br /><br />So next time you are grumpy with PMS and cursing your hormonal surges, spare a thought for me. I am sitting at my kitchen bench eating stock cubes washed down with gin and tonic. It ain't pretty.<br /><br />What does PMS look like for you?Kerri Sackville Frightening Attack of the KnickerMothsYesterday I had to concede defeat and accept that my home had been colonised by weevils. Tiny, bizarrely gravity-defying weevils who leave the sanctuary of the cereal box and crawl across my ceiling.<br /><br />Clearly, these weevils aren't particularly rational, because Blind Freddy can see that there are no cornflakes on the roof, but plenty of world leaders have been irrational. And the weevils are my leaders now. They have invaded my home, thwarted every effort on my part* to remove them, and have partied on my ceiling (literally, not metaphorically as the Lionel Ritchie song would suggest) until I am forced to accept their victory.<br /><br />I turned to social media to bemoan my fate, because if one's life has been destroyed by vermin, the care and support of people you don't know can really help to lift your spirits. But social media is a strange beast - not quite as strange as cornflake-hunting ceiling-dwelling worms, but still - and somehow the conversation turned to moths. Hardly surprising, really, as they are closely related to weevils (in a chicken-and-egg sort of way, which I shall not attempt to deconstruct now.)<br /><br />"You should write about your fight with the pantry moths," said Lisa. "Just don't forget the 'r'". And I couldn't have forgotten the 'r'. Until the 'r' was forcibly removed, and I could think of nothing;">"Panties" (ugh) shown not Blogger's Own</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br />Panty moths. Panty moths. Moths in my panties.<br /><br />Years ago, when I was at school, a teacher referred to a passage from the Bible in which God sent a fly into a man's ear to send him crazy**. Since then, I have had a morbid fear of insects entering my bodily cavities, whether they make me crazy, or just give me unpleasant flutters. And aside from neurotic fantasies, I HATE the word panties.<br /><br />"Can we call them knickermoths?" I asked. Knickermoths do have a nice ring to them, reminiscent of nineteenth century undergarments that have been in a dank cellar for too long.<br /><br />"G-Moths?" my friend Annie suggested, and that was probably as good as it was going to get.<br /><br />And it was good. Because later that night, when my Weevil Master commanded me to Google Panty Moths, I got a huge surprise.<br /><br />They do exist. And you can buy them right <a href="" target="_blank">here</a>.<br /><br />Not that I would recommend them. No-one wants moths in their panties, or in the panties of anyone else. If you know what I mean.<br /><br />But what the Weevil Master commands, I do. I am beyond saving.<br /><br />I just hope that it's not too late for you.<br /><br />*and the part of my friend Jodie, to whom I was deeply grateful, until I realised she FAILED. **I give no guarantee that such a passage exist. Many of my teachers were a little unhinged.Kerri Sackville. This Is What Friendship Is.Last night I dreamed about my best friend from school. We were in a holiday house, sitting on the bed. My friend told me an enormous secret, and I accepted it without question. And then I realised some doors were open in the house and I went around closing them, to make us both safe.<br /><div><br /></div><div>And then I woke up.<br /><div><br /></div><div>In the scheme of dreams, it was pretty tame. I mean, I have dreams about sex and death and cars flying off cliffs and houses floating in the sky. A dream about a secret and some doors is pretty mild by comparison.</div><div><br /></div><div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="" /></a></div><span id="goog_180659301"></span><span id="goog_180659302"></span><br /></div><div>But having been awake for an hour now, I'm starting to see more in the dream than met the unconscious eye. </div></div><div><br /></div><div>Because to me, that dream encapsulated friendship. It represented everything my close friends give to me, in one scene.</div><div><br /></div><div>I have a fairly sizable circle of friends, and a massive circle of acquaintances. I have friends with whom I'm laughed, with whom I've cried, with whom I've had conversations which lasted for hours, and with whom I have stayed up late exchanging texts and message which have had me weeping with hilarity.</div><div><br /></div><div>I have friends who have brought me food in a crisis, driven me here, and accompanied me there, and exchanged advice on everything from child rearing to anxiety to which bras will provide the greatest uplift and support.</div><div><br /></div><div>But there is one quality that elevates true friends above everyone else, that goes beyond the chatter and the fun.</div><div><br /></div><div>Unconditional acceptance.</div><div><br /></div><div>It's when your friends know all your shit and they love you anyway. It's when you can tell them absolutely anything and they won't judge you or stop loving you, they'll just hold out their arms to catch you if you fall. It's when you know they may not agree with everything you say or do, but they will always be there, no matter what.</div><div><br /></div><div>It's when their unquestioning acceptance helps you to go around your metaphorical house, shutting the doors and keeping yourself safe. </div><div><br /></div><div>To everyone who has this type of friend in their life, I hope you appreciate how blessed you are.</div><div><br /></div><div>And to my beautiful friends, who know who they are, thank you.</div>Kerri Sackville Bidet or Not To Bidet, THAT Is The Question<br /><div class="MsoNormal">At a party the other night, a friend waxed lyrical about her newly renovated house, demonstrating particular enthusiasm for her brand new ensuite bathroom. As well as the usual suspects – a toilet, shower with frameless glass, bath with spa feature, wall to wall mirrors– the bathroom has a special, vaguely exotic addition.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">A bidet.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">My friend loves her bidet. She talks about it often, and with tremendous pride. Apparently, the bidet gives her a new level of ‘freshness’ that toilet paper alone cannot provide – a freshness that evidently provides exceptional joy, because she was glowing just talking about it. </div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">Well, glowing or not, I don’t want that level of ‘freshness’, or at least, I don’t want to receive it from a porcelain bowl. To me, a bidet is a malfunctioning toilet – one that flushes up, instead of flushes down. We have all had the experience of receiving a little splash back when we have flushed slightly too early, and we all know it is not pleasant. Why one would wish to give oneself a deliberate spray of water up the bum is utterly beyond me. </div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">Of course, there is the possibility that I am traumatised by past experiences, and that I am forever prejudiced against bidets. I was once deeply scarred by a malfunctioning toilet that threw up water into my face. To make matters worse, the toilet was on a boat, and I was sea sick and desperately miserable. Since that day, I have associated spraying toilets with nausea and distress, which is as far from ‘freshness’ as one can possibly get.;">Baby Shown Not Blogger's Own<br /></td></tr></tbody></table>Still, I am aware of my bias, and I do try to be open minded, so I took the issue to Facebook. To bidet or not to bidet, I asked my friends. And the results were rather surprising.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">Okay, so the results weren’t really all that surprising. The vast majority of respondents answered with a resounding NO. </div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">“Ain’t no way I wants water shooting up MY arse!” wrote Anita.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">“It would seem awfully like sticking one’s bum in the toilet bowl and flushing,” commented Peter.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">“My over-riding concern is the ‘warm-up’ factor,” wrote Carol. “Instant warm water necessary. Impossible.”</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">And I agree.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">But apparently, bidets do have their place in society, or at least in the bathroom. </div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">“They’re awesome for cleaning your feet!” wrote Jono.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">“We’ve got one in our apartment here. We use it for the wet towels and cossies,” said Jen.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">And from Kirsty, who lives in Qatar and has a bidet in every upstairs bathroom but has never used them for their intended purpose, “Doubles as a laptop resting spot while watching a movie in the bath.” So the bidet moves into the technological era, which is indeed something to celebrate.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">But then there was a comment from my friend Adam, who was at the party the other night, and was listening to the entire bidet discussion.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">“Depends on if you scrunch or fold!!!” he wrote on my Facebook page.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">To scrunch or to fold. To scrunch or to fold……</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">But <i>that</i> is another issue entirely.</div>Kerri Sackville and ExcitingToday I became demented with excitement. Over something rather mundane.<br /><div><br /></div><div>For very sad reasons, I have had to part ways with my cleaner. And because I have had to part ways with my cleaner, I have had to reacquaint myself with that task known as 'cleaning one's own floor'. Now, I do lots of menial-type chores. I wipe and I wash and I scrub and I iron and I shove frankfurts in boiling water and call it 'dinner'. But I have not cleaned my own floor in a very long time. This is partly because I have been lucky enough to have a cleaner, and partly because I wouldn't know what to do with a mop if it jumped into my hands, turned on some music, and began to waltz. (Then again, most people wouldn't know what to do with a waltzing mop - I imagine they would scream and run and seek psychiatric assistance - so I don't feel too bad about that.)</div><div><br /></div><div>But three days ago, I realised that the floor was not going to clean itself, nor was I going to clean it by power of the mind alone. Nor would my children agree to float a foot above the ground as they moved from room to room, although the youngest in particular did say that she would very much like to be able to;">Artist's Impression of Me Mopping</td></tr></tbody></table><br /></div><div>And so it was time to face my demons. I went to the store and I bought a mop.</div><div><br /></div><div><i>I bought a mop</i>. Oh, how simple I make it sound. But it wasn't simple. It wasn't simple at all. Because, I discovered, there are many types of mops, and I didn't at all know which one was right for me. Did I get the mop that looked like an octopus with 37 ropes for legs? Or the one with the big yellow sponge attached to the end? Or the blue and white one that looked like a hundred chux superwipes had been shredded and attached to the end of a stick?</div><div><br /></div><div>Well, let's just say I got the wrong one. Because when I came home and mopped my floors (which was not like waltzing with a mop <i>at all</i>) they ended up all streaky and horrible and I ended up rocking in a corner on my knees. </div><div><br /></div><div>I confessed my tragedy to a girlfriend of mine, who taught me the error of my ways. She told me the correct mop to get for my floors, which I ran out and bought within the hour. And the mop worked like a charm, which made me crazed with glee, which made me horrified that I just got excited over a mop.</div><div><br /></div><div>And so this is what my life has come to, my friends. I get excited about mops, and try to drown out my own shame by sharing my pathetic secret with the world.</div><div><br /></div><div>Don't judge me. Okay, judge me. Just don't pity me. Or pity me! But if you really want to help me, please find me a good laundry detergent. The one I use isn't quite brightening my whites, and if I don't get some fulfillment from my laundry, I'm going to end up waltzing with that stupid mop all bloody day.</div>Kerri Sackville Letter of Resignation<strong>To My Family & Friends,</strong><br /><br />After around thirty seconds consideration and with a heavy heart, I have decided to resign from my position as Mother.<br /><br />I have enjoyed working with my children for the past nearly fourteen years. Unfortunately, however, this latest outbreak of lice has made my position as head of the family (no pun intended) to be untenable. <br /><br />There are several reasons why I have come to my decision.<br /><br /><ol><li>There was no mention made of the possibility of lice when I took on the position of Mother. I feel that I was tricked into a role that I did not agree to.</li><li>Removing lice from my children's hair is virtually a full time job in itself. There is simply no time in the day to attend to other parenting duties, such as feeding my kids, bathing them, doing the laundry, and drinking wine.</li><li>Lice are revolting. </li><li>Lice removal lotions smell terrible.</li><li>My children are clean. Lice, apparently, like clean hair. This creates a paradox which leads to severe cognitive dissonance which causes me extreme stress.</li><li>I can't claim worker's compensation for my extreme stress because Motherhood doesn't come with insurance.</li><li>My children complain that their heads are itchy then they complain when I put the lice potion on them then they complain even more when I use the fine toothed comb. I can't win. What is the point of a job where <em>I cannot win</em>?</li><li>There is no pay. There has never been any pay, but this is completely unacceptable now that I have to remove lice.</li></ol>So goodbye children, and goodbye Motherhood. It's been fun. Some of the time. The rest of the time has been lice. <br /><br />I wish me the best of luck with all my future endeavours.<br /><br />Kerri<br /><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="" /></a></div>Kerri Sackville An iOS Upgrade Nearly Destroyed My Life<br /><div class="MsoNormal">I wanted to download a ringtone. It wasn’t a big deal. Or at least, it shouldn’t have been a big deal. Other people had personalised ringtones so I thought I could have one too. It’s not like I’m some sort of technology Luddite. I’m a Woman of Social Media! I have a blog and everything! And if I can email and Tweet and Facebook and Instagram, then surely I could download my favourite song to play when my phone rings. </div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">Well, it wasn’t so easy. It never is. I tried to download my ringtone, but my iPhone got stroppy. “You have to upgrade to the latest iOS,” it said. Now, I don’t know what an iOS is. I’ve never given iOS’s a moment’s thought. But apparently, I had to have one, and so I set about finding">I realised that I couldn’t upgrade my iOS simply by looking at my phone in confusion (though if I could have made it happen through act of will alone I would have had such a late version of iOS the thing wouldn’t have been invented yet). </div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">By a process of elimination (that looked a lot like throwing things and sweating) I deduced that I could upgrade my iOS by plugging my phone into my computer and pressing a few buttons. Easy! Except that it turned out that the upgrade took OVER TWO HOURS and if my computer lost internet connection for ONE SECOND the whole thing would fail and have to restart. </div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">Which it did. THREE TIMES.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">By the time the thing was complete, some six hours later, I was exhausted. I was also disappointed to discover that the upgrade hadn’t actually taken effect (using ‘disappointed’ in the sense of ‘I was disappointed to learn that a meteor was hurtling towards earth and we were all going to die). By a process of elimination (that looked a lot like crying and drinking gin) I deduced that I had to start and restart my computer and phone and then plug them into each other again and wait, without breathing or moving a muscle, until the upgrade began to work. (I don’t know why the breath holding and remaining still was so vital, but it just <i>was</i>.)</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">Eventually, the upgrade took place and all was well in the world. My phone looked slightly different, which mildly concerned me, but I figured that it was just the new, improved iOS - whatever the hell that was. </div><div class="MsoNormal">I felt proud of myself and in a celebratory mood. I turned on some music and prepared to dance the ‘I’m Queen of Technology’ shuffle. Except that the music didn’t come on, because somehow <i>all my music had been wiped from my phone</i>, and it was clearly <i>never, ever coming back</i>. </div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">By a process of elimination (that looked a lot like rocking in the corner in the foetal position) I deduced that the iTunes music was not syncing to my iPhone no matter what settings I chose or plugs I stuck in. And this made me very, very disappointed indeed.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">Happily, though, I managed to get my ringtone. Unhappily, this will be of little use to me as I never plan to use my stupid iPhone again. From now on it’s carrier pigeons for me. And the only ringtone will be their gentle cooing.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">This Woman of Social Media hates technology. </div>Kerri Sackville Anxiety, Part Two: A Day<i>This is the second part in my new series, <b><strike>Beating</strike> Managing Anxiety; Advice from a Worried Person</b>. For Part One see <a href="" target="_blank">here</a>. To buy The Little Book of Anxiety click <a href="" target="_blank">here</a>.</i><br /><br />Anxiety is a bitch. Anyone who has experienced it knows. Sometimes it fades into the background, sometimes it rears it's ugly head, and sometimes it roars so loudly that the best I can do is just put one foot in front of the other.<br /><br />At times like this, I turn to my last resort, the technique I use when things get really dire (and, occasionally, when things are just reasonably dire, or I'm not feeling particularly robust).<br /><br />I take one day at a time.<br /><br /.<br /><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="" /></a></div><br />Without my emotional resources, I become easily overwhelmed. Simple tasks like cooking dinner seem difficult. Bigger projects like organising my car rego or generating invoices seem scary. And long term responsibilities like my career and parenting my children seem utterly impossible.<br /><br />So I do what I need to do. I don't think about the scary or impossible. I push those thoughts away and focus myself directly on the here and now. I decide I just need to get through <i>today</i>, and not think about all the tomorrows that are going to come later. <b>I can get through one day</b>. It's just twenty four hours. Anyone can get through one day.<br /><br /.<br /><br />Sometimes, that's all you can do. But if you keep getting through, hour by hour, day by day, eventually the anxiety will recede again. I promise you, it will. So hang in there.<br /><br />Anyone can get through one day.Kerri Sackville Anxiety, Part One: Force<i>As many of you will know, last year I released <a href="" target="_blank">The Little Book of Anxiety; Confessions from a Worried Life</a>. Since writing the book I have been toying with the idea of releasing an ebook entitled <b><strike>Beating </strike>Managing Anxiety; Advice From a Worried Person</b>. However, I don't know the first thing about releasing an ebook, and besides, I don't want to charge anxious people for advice. We all deserve as much help as we can get, and I want to share what I know for free.</i><br /><div><i>And so, without further ado, here is Part One of my new series. Parts Two to Until-I-Finish will follow shortly.</i></div><div><br /></div><div>Let me tell you this one little secret - anxiety hates nothing more than company. Anxiety likes to live alone, dwelling in the fertile lush pastures of the empty mind. The very best weapon against anxiety is to keep busy. Anxiety needs to be driven out with force.</div><div><br /></div>.</div><div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="" /></a></div><br /></div>.</div><div><br /></div><div>Now, obviously I'm not advocating guest spots on the radio or calls from editors as the cure for all anxiety (but if radio producers or editors read this, please call me, I'm yours). What I am advocating, however, is that <b>you find your own equivalent, something that works to get your mind off yourself and on the other</b>. It is different for everyone, but we all have something, a task that will haul us out of our introspection and focus our attention elsewhere.</div><div><br /></div><div>So what works for me? Well, my list is varied. It includes:</div><div><ul><li>Doing radio or TV;</li><li>Doing any kind of public speaking;</li><li>Meeting a close friend for a coffee;</li><li>Writing to a deadline;</li><li>Attending a meeting, whether about my children or work;</li><li>Clearing out a cupboard or sorting through clothes;</li><li>Going for a walk with hip hop music blaring through my headphones. (It has to be hip hop. No other music calms me);</li><li>Organizing my handbag;</li><li>Browsing through online stores to choose something I need. (It doesn't work when I'm window shopping in real life - I can spend hours walking around Westfield in a haze of anxiety. But put me on the net and I immediately concentrate. All hail the online world.) </li></ul></div><div>Your list may be completely different. The key is to identify what works for you, write it down, and then turn to it when you're feeling anxious. </div><div><br /></div><div>Maybe you feel focused when you're cooking, or attending a spin class, or painting your nails. Maybe you are able to concentrate when you're planting tomatoes or running a seminar or drawing up a spreadsheet. Maybe you're about to become immersed in <i>The Bold And The Beautiful</i> or in the works of Dostoyevsky or in the <i>Fifty Shades Trilogy</i>. </div><div><br /></div><div.</div><div><br /></div><div>Let me know how you go, and I'll see you for Part Two.</div>Kerri Sackville of Hell, Part: KILL ME NOWI thought my days of <a href="" target="_blank">trampoline assembly</a> were over. I was wrong. Oh, how painfully, tragically wrong was I.<br /><br /.<br /><br />The Architect disassembled the trampoline with the help of our daughters. This, clearly, was far easier than the assembly, which is IMPOSSIBLE and DESIGNED INTENTIONALLY TO SEND YOU HATE YOU SO MUCH RIGHT NOW</td></tr></tbody></table><br />I transported the pieces of trampoline to my parents' place, where they waited eagerly, tools in hand. (Okay, so my mother was drinking a cup of tea and my father was asleep on his bed, but they were sweetly eager in spirit.)<br /><br />The first part of the trampoline was simple to assemble, because the manufacturers are EVIL and TRYING TO TRICK YOU. My mother and I got the base up and attached part of the mat, and then things went hideously, catastrophically wrong.<br /><br /.<br /><br /.<br /><br />We still failed.<br /><br /.<br /><br />I returned after half an hour, and my 11 year old daughter greeted me at the door.<br /><br />"Mummy, come see what we did!" she cried.<br /><br />I called my parents and we all proceeded to the backyard. The trampoline was fully assembled. My two children had assembled it. They had done the impossible. And they said it was "easy".<br /><br />I hate that trampoline. I do. I really do. But I love my children. If they can assemble that trampoline, they can cure cancer and save the earth from meteors. And I feel very lucky to have them.<br /><br />I wish that trampoline would go and spontaneously combust, though. I hate it.Kerri Sackville Good Gifts Go BadToday I bought one of my children a present. I'm not going to say which one, because I don't want any of you to spoil the surprise. I'm not going to say what it was, because I bought it on ebay, and it may not even turn up. I will say how much it cost, because it was $2.75, which struck me as ridiculously cheap considering that the postage from Hong Kong was free. You can feel safe in assuming it wasn't an iPad, or a car, but it was something very sincere, and anyway, it's the thought that counts.<br /><br />I love buying presents for my kids. I love buying presents for any of the people I really love. I get ridiculously excited about it. It doesn't matter how much the present costs or whether it is expected or not. It is wonderful to be able to bring joy to someone you care about. <br /><br />Now, that's not to say that it's better to give than to receive, because of course that is utter nonsense. I love receiving gifts. LOVE it. The problem, of course, is that I rarely get gifts I really love, unless, that is, I have chosen them myself. Occasionally someone will hit the jackpot, but so often it's just not-quite-right. You know - I've dropped hints I want a new purse, but when it arrives it's just that fraction too small; or I ask for a friend to bring back a T-shirt from the US, and when they do it's V-neck tight in the sleeves.<br /><br />But of course it's all good (I have to say that or I sound ungrateful) and I'm lucky to have people who care enough about me to buy gifts. And I'm certainly not the best gift buyer in the world. Right now I am wearing a fringed vest I bought for my friend Princess Fancy Pants* which I took back when I realised she had never worn it in her life. What's more, my children have discarded at least a third of the presents I've bought them - especially those I was truly thrilled about because they were an amazing bargain at Costco. SO;">This is nothing like the vest Princess Fancy Pants rejected. But it is still a fringed vest.</td></tr></tbody></table><br />But I'm totally sure my child is going to love their $2.75 present. And if they don't, I'm going to give it to Princess Fancy Pants.<br /><br />After all, I'm wearing her vest.<br /><br />*Name changed to avoid making her sound ungrateful<br /><br />Kerri Sackville. Heaving & Not.Today I was in an elevator and I heard a woman use the word 'bosoms'. I was awed. It is rare to hear a woman use the word 'bosoms' these days. Actually, I think it was probably always rare to hear the word 'bosoms'. It's theoretically possible that people would occasionally mention their own (or somebody else's) 'bosom', but I suspect no-one has ever mentioned the plural. After all, I am pretty sure that 'bosoms' has only ever been linked to the word 'heaving', and I suspect 'heaving bosoms' has only ever appeared in print. And quite frankly I can't imagine a person of any generation verbally referring to 'heaving bosoms'. How would it happen? In what;">Bosom not Blogger's Own.<br />Groin not shown.</td></tr></tbody></table><br />"<i>Oh, I saw Jillian today. My god but she has heaving bosoms</i>."<br /><br />or, "<i>Every time Max walks into the room, the women's bosoms begin heaving</i>."<br /><br />or perhaps, "<i>He has such raw sexual power. He gives me the heaving bosoms</i>."<br /><br />The woman in the elevator did not put her 'bosoms' together with the word 'heaving'. It's possible, of course, that they are inextricably linked in her mind - that bosoms heave just like cats purr or flowers bloom. But she didn't say it. She did, however, put her 'bosoms' together with a 'groin', which to me was even more startling.<br /><br />"Watch out for your bosoms and your groin," she told the young woman next to her, who nodded politely and kept holding the cardboard box.<br /><br />And I was fascinated. FASCINATED. What was going in the box? Why did the woman have to watch her bosoms and groin? What was the thing that was going in the box potentially going to do to her bosoms and groin? How was she supposed to protect said bosoms and groin from the fearsome attack of the thing-in-the-box? And why on earth was she calling them 'bosoms' and 'groin' instead of the far more colloquial 'breasts' and 'thighs', 'boobies' and 'front bottom', or even 'bazoongas' and 'vajayjay'. I mean, no-one says 'bosoms' and 'groin', unless they're some kind of weirdo 1950's doctor who is talking earnestly to a woman in a girdle and underwired bra who has strained something private.<br /><br />Unfortunately for you (and me), there is no satisfactory conclusion to this story. The woman (who, for the record, was approximately 50 years old and dressed conservatively in a white shirt and tailored black pants) stepped out of the lift with the young woman (who was dressed more jauntily in a floral skirt and pale blue blouse) and disappeared on the second floor. I have no idea what happened to them, the box, or their bosoms (heaving or not) and I suspect I never will.<br /><br />But if you have any clue, I'd be grateful to know. This mystery is going to give me heaving bosoms all bloody night.Kerri Sackville's All OkayLife is hard. I've known that for a while, but sometimes the fact of life's hardness slaps me in the face and grabs me by the hair and twists me around and throws me against the wall.<br /><br />Life is hard. Parenting is hard and relationships are fraught and friends can disappoint and loved ones can get sick and people die and there is no smooth path to eternity.<br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="" /></a></div>Life is hard. The past couple of weeks have been especially hard for me. Actually, the past couple of months have been especially hard for me. Hell, the past couple of years have been especially hard for me. There has been great joy, beautiful moments, lots of love and lots of laughter. But interspersed with the joy and the beauty and the laughter has been confusion and complication and worry and grief. My mind has felt messy, and my life has felt messy. I have made choices that I've regretted, and choices that I've regretted not making sooner. I have struggled to make sense of it all, and wondered how I'm going to proceed in the future.<br /><br /.<br /><br /.<br /><br />Then she said, "That's okay. It's all okay."<br /><br />And I believed her. It is okay. It's all okay. I'll muddle through, as I've always muddled through, and so will you. Life is hard and it's messy and it can be complicated and sad. But that's okay. It's all okay.<br /><br />That's how it's supposed to be.<br /><br /><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="" /></a></div>Kerri Sackville... And Forgiveness.....And Olives...I love my friend <a href="" target="_blank">Lana</a>. I do. I cherish her friendship, I cherish her unconditional support of me, and I cherish the fact that she nearly always pays for drinks when we go out. (I tried last night, I really, truly did, but she beat me to it. She's sneaky that way.)<br /><br />However, last night Lana betrayed me in a fundamental way, which left me shocked and desperate. Even now, 16 hours later, I am struggling to reconcile my love for her with her extreme disloyalty. It is hard. I hope one day I will get through this.<br /><br /.<br /><br />I didn't notice anything was wrong. I thought that we were as close as ever. We went back to school and I collected my kids, and chatted and laughed with some of the other parents. All was fine. Or at least I thought;">(mouth shown not author's own)</td></tr></tbody></table><br />But then I got in my car, and looked in the rear view mirror. And I saw it. As clear as daylight, only black, which is not at all like daylight, but rather like night - very, very black night.<br /><br />A big piece of olive stuck between my two top teeth.<br /><br />I was devastated. And horrified. Because Lana, my dear, dear friend Lana, had not informed me that I had olive between my teeth.<br /><br />I felt sad. I felt betrayed. I felt hurt. And then I sent her a message asking how she could have done such a thing.<br /><br />"Sorry," she replied. "I was trying to <a href="" target="_blank">find your ears</a>."<br /><br />And just like that, I forgave her.<br /><br /><br />Kerri Sackville In A Turban, Or "Hurtie Ears"It is rather unseemly to complain about pain that one inflicts upon oneself. It's probably not reasonable to expect sympathy when one has undergone a purely elective procedure for something as minor as an ear.<br /><br />But I am not complaining about my pain, nor am I asking for sympathy. I am simply outlining, for those of you interested, what it feels like to become a character from Star Wars.<br /><br />As many of you know, I underwent surgery on Monday to correct my one-and-a-half sticky-out ears. (Obviously, I have two ears, and both were operated on, but only one was very sticky-out. The other was moderately sticky-out, but it's easier to achieve symmetry if they do both.)<br /><br />I suffered from an affliction known colloquially as 'bat ear', or, in medical terms, as 'bat ear'. (Yep, sometimes Latin just doesn't cut it.). The ridge of my ear was lacking a crease, causing it to stick out at a 90 degree angle instead of lying flat against my head.<br /><br />The operation, known as 'otoplasty', involved creating a crease. The surgeon made an incision in the back of each ear, scored the ridge of each ear with a special instrument (as opposed to, say, a spoon), inserted permanent stiches to hold the ears in place, and then dissolving stiches to re-connect the skin.<br /><br />He then slapped a massive piece of gauze on each ear, wrapped a bandage the size of a turban around my head, fastened it with approximately twelve metres of surgical tape, and sent me on my way.<br /><br />In the long term, the result will be two beautiful flat ears.<br /><br />In the short term, the result is two hurtie ears, a new taste for pain medication, and a rather startling resemblance to Princess Le have never before noticed the similarity</td></tr></tbody></table><br />The surgeon reassured me that the pain wouldn't be too bad, and that I could probably make do with just paracetamol. And I totally could, provided that I washed it down with a couple of Digesics, a nice strong sleeping pill, and a slug or two of gin.<br /><br />The sensations themselves have varied from day to day. The first night it felt as though my earlobes had been sliced off, and two red-hot pokers inserted in my earholes. The second day my entire ears ached, and it pained me to open my mouth. The third day, the pain localised to the site of the incision, and the bandage began to feel very heavy. The fourth day, the ache began to subside, bar the occasional shooting pain in various locations throughout my aural region. Today, day five, I am frantically itchy, and quite desperate to remove the massive turban.<br /><br />Last night I felt a mild panic attack arise, as the claustrophobia of the bandage began to overwhelm me. I had wild fantasies of attacking the turban with a pair of (safety) scissors, ripping it off dramatically, and scratching my new ears. Perhaps, I began wondering in fear, there weren't even ears under there at all, but two transplanted fingers attached to each side of my head. Perhaps the surgeon had removed my ears and put them back on backwards, as a joke. Or perhaps he'd tattooed them with purple spots and bejazzled them with sequins, just to lift my spirits.<br /><br />I still don't know. The bandages come off on Monday and all will be revealed. Until then, I am trying desperately not to scratch, and to breathe through the crazed desire to return from planet Star Wars.<br /><br />Thank you all for your support, and my ears and I will see you soon. Or at least hear you soon.<br /><br />From a much flatter distance.<br /><br />Hooray!Kerri Sackville I'm Doing It....<br />As some of you will know, in recent times <a href="" target="_blank">I have been contemplating my sticky-out ear</a>. Actually, I've been contemplating my sticky-out ear forever. It is something that has bothered me for as long as I can remember. It bugs me when I look in the mirror. It bothers me when it pokes out from under my hair in photos. And it drives me crazy in strong wind when I fear I might actually take off and fly (but in circles, because only one of my ears sticks out, so I have no chance of going in a straight line).<br /><div><br /></div><div>And now, I have finally decided to do something about it. I am forty-four. It is now or never. And I want to know what life feels like without a crazy ear. I want to know what it feels like to be able to wear my hair back without looking like a lopsided Minnie Mouse. Most importantly, I guess, I want to like my ears.</div><div><br /></div><div>Since writing my previous post and talking to friends, I've been amazed at the support for my decision - at least from women. "If it bothers you and you can fix it, then do it!" they say. Several friends have admitted to having their own minor procedures done. I had no idea how many of my friends have had nose jobs, Botox, teeth capping, and their own bat ears corrected.<br /><br /></div><div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="251" src="" width="320" /></a></div><br />Men, interestingly enough, don't seem to understand. "Your ears have never bothered me," said my husband. "I've never even noticed your big ear," said a male friend. But then I've always maintained that men see the entire picture - face, body, boobs, four limbs - whereas we women are all about detail. </div><div><br /></div><div>Only one female friend of mine questioned my decision (and yes, hon, I'm talking about you). "The whole quest for perfection bothers me," she said. "I love imperfections in people. I love your ear."<br /><br /></div><div>But I'm not trying to be perfect. I'm far from perfect. If I'd wanted to be perfect then I'd be fixing a lot more than my ear. I'd be getting the veins on my legs stripped. I'd be getting a boob job. A tummy tuck. A face lift. That special fraxel laser treatment on my skin to remove all the pigmentation. And Japanese ionic straightening to permanently correct my crazy frizzy hair.<br /><br /></div><div>But I don't want any of that. I don't want to be perfect. I just want to have a nice normal ear. So I'm going in tomorrow for a day procedure and I'm saying goodbye to my sticky-out ear forever. It's a strange feeling. But bizarrely exciting.<br /><br />So thank you for your support in anticipation. Photos shall come soon. And my ear and I shall see you on the other side. </div>Kerri Sackville Is No ExcuseI don't get outraged a lot these days. The older I get, the more aware I am of my own flaws and limitations, and the less I judge other people. What's more, as the years go by, the more attuned I am to the dark side of the human condition, and the less surprised I am by some of the shocking things that occur.<br /><br />But the Chrissie Swan saga outrages me. <i>Not </i>because the woman had a sneaky cigarette whilst pregnant. I mean, seriously people - do we not have more important things to worry about? She didn't beat one of her already-born children, or take to her pregnant stomach with an iron bar. She didn't mainline heroin or strap a dozen mobile phones to her stomach to send radiation to her poor helpless fetus. She didn't even smoke a pack a day. She had a few sneaky cigarettes. I mean,<i> give me a break</i>.<br /><br />And yet the woman is required to offer a tearful apology to the entire nation because of her bad behaviour. It is outrageous. It is none of our business. NONE. It has nothing to do with you and nothing to do with me. Chrissie Swan is a 'personality'. She has made her living through media work - television, radio and newsprint. And good on her. That is <i>incredibly </i>hard to do and she has risen above the pack and succeeded. I admire her and I envy her.<br /><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="'s-day-logo.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="82" src="'s-day-logo.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br />But the fact that she has made her living through media work does not make her public property. Chrissie Swan is not Kyle Sandilands. I have listened to her radio show many times and read her columns and watched her on TV. She is respectful of other people, self-deprecating and warm. She does not deserve or invite public shredding.<br /><br />As for Woman's Day, well, they ought to be ashamed of themselves. They won't be, of course, because they are a tabloid publication, and celebrate women by mocking their weight gain, pointing out their plastic surgery, speculating on their eating disorders, and celebrating their personal tragedies. Of course they're going to publish photos of yet another 'fallen' celebrity, however ridiculously fabricated the 'fall'.<br /><br />I just wish they weren't pretending to believe they were doing a community service by highlighting the dangers of smoking whilst pregnant, because that is cruelly and laughably disingenuous. We <i>all </i>know the dangers of smoking whilst pregnant. They did it because they knew it would sell a lot of magazines, at the expense of a decent human being. And there is no excuse.<br /><br />Sometimes, these days, I still get outraged.Kerri Sackville Sing The iTunes ElectricA few years ago, I lost my mobile phone. I can't remember where (no doubt if I did, I would have found it). To make matters worse, my laptop had recently died, and I hadn't backed up my iPhone on my new computer. My entire iTunes collection was wiped out. <br /><br />Over the years, I built up a new collection, slowly. As I remembered the songs I'd downloaded from the net, I would add them to my playlist, but I knew that most of them were lost forever. And it hurt. Those songs were a part of me. They evoked a myriad of feelings, a thousand memories from my life. There were songs that made me cry every single time I heard them. There were songs that made me get up and dance. Songs that made me energised. And the sexiest song I'd ever heard. <br /><br />Sadly, I couldn't remember what that one was.<br /><br />And then last week, something miraculous occurred. I used my brain. I realised that there simply had to be a system for identifying and re-retrieving songs one had downloaded from iTunes. And, lo and behold, there was. It was time consuming and cumbersome, but it could be done.<br /><br />So I did it.<br /><br />My entire, previously wiped playlist magically appeared before me, and I retrieved the songs, one by one. It was incredibly exciting - like uncovering lost-lost photos, or love letters, or childhood diaries. I rushed through the download and began playing my tunes. I was in heaven.<br /><br />There was <em>I Sing The Body Electric</em>, from the movie Fame - a song that gives me goosebumps every single time. <br /><br /><iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" src="" width="420"></iframe><br /><br />There was <em>Shout and Deliver</em> by The Reels, which takes me back to 1981, a daggy Year 8 girl with frizzy hair and too-thick eyebrows. <em>US Forces</em> by Midnight Oil, which reminds me of an old school friend. <em>Pass The Duchie</em>, which is as close as I ever came to drugs in my youth. <em>Pressure</em>, by Billy Joel, which never fails to get me up and moving. <br /><br />There was Goodbye Yellow Brick Road by Elton John, which makes me pensive. Michael Nyman's piano score for <em>The Piano</em>, which makes me weep. And Teardrop, by Massive Attack, a song my sister famously pointed out and cried "Look, how cute! She has a cool song in her collection by mistake!"<br /><br />Oh, and the sexiest song in the entire world? Well, I'll leave that up to you. But let me tell you, I'm playing it right now....Kerri Sackville baby was almost late to her first ever day at school because I couldn't get my mascara right. I don't usually wear mascara, but my eyes looked like I'd been crying all night (which was not surprising, because I had). And so I slathered it on, then got teary again, so the whole lot smeared. In the end, I left the house with grey-rimmed puffy eyes, which will look truly memorable in those First Day At School photos.<br /><br />I didn't expect to have such a strong reaction to my youngest starting school. I was quite excited when my big boy and girl started Year K all those years ago. I was ridiculously proud, marveling at their uniforms, taking endless photos of them with their hats and bags. It felt like the start of a wonderful new chapter. There was no sense of loss, no sense of mourning, just fresh beginnings.<br /><br />This time, though, this time it's my baby. My beautiful, precious girl. She was born when her siblings were already six and eight. Last year her brother started high school, and next year her sister will join him. They are growing up, moving forward with their lives. Every day I see them morphing from children into teenagers. Every day I am stunned by the passage of time. It rushes ahead, and they rush with it. It's magnificent and wonderful and incredibly quick.<br /><br />But it's been okay, because I have had my youngest. The big kids could grow up but she would always be with me. She would always be cute. She would always want to snuggle. It would be okay because I would always have my baby. I couldn't even fathom my girl growing up.<br /><br />Today my baby put on her uniform and shoes, hoisted her backpack onto her back, and walked into school. And it hurt. It <i>hurt</i>. I didn't want to let her go. I was careful to be positive and cheerful, but inside I was crying. I know it will be fine, I know she will have a fabulous day, but I'm just not ready to let her go.<br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="" /></a></div>Time, it goes so fast. And kids grow up. Even your babies. Even the ones you think will stay young forever.<br /><br />In years to come, I'll look back on the pictures from today and laugh. There is my daughter, in her too-big dress and her perfect, shiny shoes. There is my husband, smiling broadly. There is our big girl, having run down from her classroom, proudly showing her sister around. And there is me, with my grey puffy eyes, clinging on to my baby with all I've got.<br /><br />One day I'll laugh. But right now I'm still having a little weep. Until 3pm, when I pick her up, and she'll be my little girl again.<br /><br />Kerri Sackville IS It With Men & Hair?The other day I got my hair cut. It's not a big deal. I didn't get a buzz cut, or a mohawk, or - god forbid - a mullet. I got a fairly standard, chin length, concave bob; you know, shorter in the back, slightly longer in the front. My hair is curly so it bounces up. But it's not that short, and it wasn't that drastic a cut, and at the end of the day it's just hair.<br /><br />So why did my husband freak out so much?<br /><br />Okay, he didn't exactly 'freak out'. He didn't cry or throw things or rent his clothes or tear his hair or run of the house screaming 'WHY, KERRI?</a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">If my husband had his way.....</td></tr></tbody></table><br />But he did look horrified.<br /><br />"I hate it," he said to me. "I hate it!"<br /><br />I shrugged. "I really like it," I told him. "And there's nothing I can do now, anyway."<br /><br />"Grow it!" he pleaded, despairingly. "I want you to grow it back! Now!"<br /><br />My husband is 46 years old and has a masters degree. I hadn't anticipated his faulty grasp of the laws of biology and physics, but it's always interesting to learn new things about your partner.<br /><br />"You do know hair doesn't grow six inches overnight?" I asked him.<br /><br />"I can't look at you," he cried. "I'm not going to look at you till it grows back!"<br /><br />"Okay!" I said. I poked him in the chest. He looked at me. I giggled.<br /><br />Since getting my hair cut I've discovered that many men seem overly invested in their partner's tresses. They become distressed or unsettled if she cuts her hair significantly, with the level of upset proportionate to the number of inches trimmed. It's like a Rapunzel complex, only without the eternal youth, and I have to wonder what it's all about.<br /><br />Perhaps men subconsciously link their own masculinity to the length of their partner's locks. Or perhaps some primal instant links long hair with fertility and the ability to skin and cook a woolly mammoth. Or perhaps they just like to see hair on the pillow that's not theirs. I DON'T KNOW.<br /><br />All I know is that I love my new hair. And my husband seems to be getting used to it. Or at least, he's stopped talking about how little hair I have. Which is good. Very good. Because once we're on that topic, let me just say....Kerri Sackville Want Schnitzels? Go Pound Yourself.<br /><div class="MsoNormal">My*. </div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">So every now and then, I will buy a mountain of chicken, and a huge pile of veal, and fry up enough schnitzels to last the year. Or at least feed my husband for a week or two.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal";">Totally (not) my schnitzel</td></tr></tbody></table>I was cooking him bloody schnitzels</i> and the very least he could do was take one third of our joint offspring off my hands.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">So I kept on pounding the meat, hard. Like, really hard. I wasn’t just pounding that meat. I was pounding my husband, and the bits of chicken spray in my hair, and the veal in my nose, and the whole <i>unfairness</i> of my life, of having to spend hours messing up my kitchen only to spend hours cleaning it up again when everyone around me just hung about taking it easy. I pounded and pounded until the kids became alarmed and my husband appeared before me.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">“What are you doing?” he asked warily, looking as anxious as if I was wielding a mallet in my hands, which, of course, I was.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">“I’m making you <i>schnitzels</i>,” I yelled. “And you’ve <i>forgotten about the bath</i>!”</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">“I just ran it,” he said carefully. “Um... I think the chicken is ready.”</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">I looked down. The piece of chicken was in tatters. There would be no schnitzel for this particular bit of bird. There wasn’t even enough left for a nugget.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal".</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">It took one and a half hours. And another glass of gin.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">My husband can be a very easy man to please. But next time he wants pleasure in the kitchen, he’s going to have to bite the bullet, and damn well please himself.</div><div class="MsoNormal"><br /></div><div class="MsoNormal">*Okay, so it’s maybe not my <i>greatest</i> joy, but it’s certainly up there in my top fifty.</div>Kerri Sackville Truth About BoysI never had brothers growing up. Though I went to a co-ed school, and saw boys in their natural habitat, I never saw them alone, never saw the way they interacted together when there were no girls present. <i>What do they talk about</i>? I used to wonder. <i>How do they play</i>?<br /><br />Well, now I have a thirteen year old son who often has group of friends over. And so now I have access to the secret world of the male.<br /><br />At this very moment I am eavesdropping on my son and seven of his friends. I can say with confidence that now, people, NOW I know what;">BOYS (from, er, a backstreet)</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><ul><li>They yell. They whoop. They jeer. They scream.</li><li>They play Wii with <i>passion</i>. It can get vicious out there.</li><li>They make jokes about their testicles. Using the word 'testicle'.</li><li>They insult each other. Gleefully.</li><li>They mock each other mercilessly. "Heh heh heh heh heh," they say. With <i>relish</i>.</li><li>They talk frequently about how awesome they are. "I am AWESOME!" they proclaim.</li><li>They call each other weird names.</li><li>They speak in funny accents and with funny voices. Loudly.</li><li>They use in-jokes, <i>all the time.</i> They quote from school. They quote from YouTube videos. They quote from TV. They bastardize popular song lyrics. And they make up alternatives to Gangnam Style. It never gets old. To them, anyway.</li><li>They get each others' attention by screaming "GUYS!" at the top of their lungs. No-one listens.</li><li>They don't bother with niceties. "Put that down!" "Turn that off!" "Somebody press play!" "Shut up Alex". Nobody seems to mind.</li><li>They say "flippin" a lot.</li><li>They are very big on sarcasm.</li><li>They rage quit when something goes wrong. They recover quickly.</li><li>They threaten each other with violence. On occasion, they follow through.</li><li>They laugh, about the most ridiculous things. They laugh a lot. It is a beautiful thing.</li></ul>Kerri Sackville

I feel like I've given this Lunduke fellow too much credit. A challenge? really? Let me point out a few things: -. If you want to make some points, why don't you write them on your lame blog. Then, if I feel so inclined, I'll write some stuff on my lame blog. We will make it impossible for our readers to follow. Isn't that how you freetards do it? 2373 flames:«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 2373 Newer› Newest» EPIC WIN! Yeah because if you gave up your anonymity, you couldn't be such a Drepper. The hater is a reasonable guy. He really is. Well played! You pwoned him thoroughly. You must be either deIcaza or Shuttleworth. If so - Mark, when are you stopping this "Ubuntu" nonsense? I'm sure you can do something more productive with all that time and money, like creating school administration tools, or adopting a child, or doing lots of coke and whores. LH - you may actually like Linus and want it to success, but most of us shudder the thought of actually using that steaming pile of shit. Linux. Is. For. Nobody. Please, let it die. I like Linus and want it to success too 'coz he's a chubby chaser. I meant Linux, you marvelous faggot gaylord! It's obvious to anyone who has read this blog for more than a month that LH is Linus after a night of heavy drinking. Linux - suck different! Is it possible to use Linux, but *not* be a freetard? I don't try to annoy other folks, just because I use Linux on the desktop. I enjoy tinkering with computers. I also use Windows, when I need it. I think it's fun to learn new things, new OS's. Does that make me a "freetard" as you guys put it? I hope not. Linux slogan competition? Linux - it's dead, Jim. Linux - install once, uninstall once. Linux - you will have to live forever. Linux - awful software for dirty people. Linux - better when you're high. Linux - the can't do attitude. Linux - game over man, game over. Linux - you meant it as a joke.axee. "Learning new OS" is almost a meaningless thing. Installing software, troubleshooting, superficial UI differences, are not really a "Learning" experience. There's no deep underlying principle. If you really want to learn about computers, grab a theory book. The implementation is mutable, and in the end, unimportant. You use Linux as a toy, which is all it can ever be (and quite a stupid, broken, boring and ultimately futile toy). As long as you don't try to deploy it in any real world scenario, or try to convert anyone, it's OK. Sad, but okay. @rockwell Does that make me a "freetard" as you guys put it? I hope not. No, you are not a freetard. A freetard is someone who goes on and on rambling and promising about freedom and fundamental superiority of foss without delivering. mmmmh, I wouldn't say that LH pwnd Mr. Lunduke (no need for that, somehow), but he demonstrated he's a honest and reasonable guy. And *a lot* of style. ...is Linus after a night of heavy drinking.No, otherwise he would post only on friday, saturday and sometimes on wednesday... :P If you find yourself saying things like Micro-dollar-oft (Micro$oft) then you're a Freetard. haha. Chicken. I want to see the debate--I think it'd be an awesome attention-hungry cat fight. Sounds like good times all around. @ rockwell What the guy said about studying theory is absolutely true in everything. Even though it's nice to play with many different things, at some point the best time investment is to go at the root of things, not forever, but long enough that at the end one is able to separate the main concepts from the implementations. And this way is also time saving: from one concept you basically can know the root of tons of implementation. If you take the other way around, you need to try *many* implementations before understanding the main point. That said, you surely are not a freetard. Ah, saw too late, sorry Rockwell, if you want an example, Jake T seems to be a good half freetard (and surely he'll say something about his courage to put his real name etc.) :P I'll add a few Linux - Get What You Expect (and expect nothing) Linux - Because Freedom means spending your days hacking someone else's code Linux - Being a Tool is Better than being a Paid-by-M$-shill Linux - Alpha Software? That Means #1 Baby! Linux - The OS of Tomorrow! (in 6 months) The question? Copying Open Office documents to USBkey Linux - Finally got it to the way you want? Well, time to apt-get dist-upgrade! Ok ... so, i guess what I'm hearing is that (most of) you guys don't have an issue with using Linux on the desktop ...but a "freetard" is one who constantly tells everyone else that desktop Linux is superior. For what it's worth, I don't think that's the case .. but I do think Linux on the desktop has come a long way since I first messed with RedHat, back in 1999 or so. For most users, though, I'd say Windows is still the better choice, or Mac OS X. Me, I like the idea of another choice, so it's fun to investigate. sorry, above post was from me -- rockwell Got it, rockwell :) evangelism and religious zeal over software just gives us all so much to laugh about This post somehow got modded "Funny">>what are the chances of Word replacing LaTeX as the editor of choice in academia? Hate to break it to you, but it already has, like 10 or 15 years ago. It is only some very zealous math people who still use TeX for anything important, and only even more zealous Linux or BSD users that do so on open source operating systems. In the last 10 years, closed source software has leapfrogged open source in every conceivable way. Windows 7 and OS X make Linux look like the crap that it is. Office 2010 puts POWER into the hands of both everyday users and power users like nothing else in history. Admit it folks, open source software has failed miserably. Closed source has demonstrated, once and for all, that there is no real benefit to opening up software. I await my downward moderation simply for telling the truth. Oh, I also forgot about "paranoid", rockwell. Your average freetard is more paranoid than a stereotypical Kentucky mountain man. @ Rockwell: I like the idea of another choice, so it's fun to investigate.Fine, me too (and many other here) like the idea of another choice, but still Linux is not at all a suitable option for my needs. And I tried a lot. I tried so much that at some point (realizing that I had to compile alsa for idiot reasons) I stopped and googled "Linux sucks", really full of hate! Then I found a forum and from there this blog. It has been an enlighting moment to discover that it wasn't my fault, that there are precise, detailed reasons for the suckness and that I wasn't alone. If it works for you, I'm actually happy for you. If it doesn't, well, it's quite possible that the reason is very well explained in one of the posts of this blog (that's why I like it). best. P.S. How did you end up here? Lundyke can now join Tony "Force My Wife" Lawrence and Steven J. "Zomg Confickerrr Will Striek at Any Moment" Vaughan-Nichols in the Hall of Freetards. Lundouche? Someone had to say it! LH you are a fag indeed, I don't hide myself and I face Winchot users every time, and here in Argentina that's all the time. You are not hiding because you are affraid of freetards, it's because you feel ashamed of the CRAP you say in your blog. WHO THE FUCKS CARES IF HE HAS A PROBLEM WITH XRANDRI: me: xwd | nc -l -p 27000 -q 1 them: nc 190.51.xxx.xxx 27000 | xwud Because I can read the code of every fucking app I want and learn for free, because I can compile my kernel to have a pic of your MOM during boot ! captcha: gtfo - go the fuck off, please take your shamefull ass out of internet, it was not meant for idiots. Alvarez is a teenage prostitute from Argentina who sucks cock as a value-added, free service. So ... this, then is a freetard: //Alvarez said... LH you are a fag indeed, I don't hide myself and I face Winchot ... ...because i can show a screenshot to my pals with one fucking command:... ...because I can compile my kernel to have a pic of your MOM during boot !...// So, if i just communicate entirely opposite of what Alvarez does, I should be ok. Yes? geez, is this how most Linux users talk to folks? Yup, he's a freetard. Cute little cockroach, ain't he? :) Linux - Also lives in your mothers basement Linux - Cuz UR 2 |33t 4 stuff that works Linux - So you can laugh at people who put a value on their spare time Linux - Because Computers Should Never Be Simple Linux - For Those Who Still Think That Being Fringe Is Cool Liunx - Because RMS Eats a Kitten Every Time You Buy Non FLOSS Linux - Bringing Cheap LULZ to People Who Have Been There Already Linux - Where Users are Lusers Linux - Where Users Are The Problem Linux - Because a Buffet Always Beats Fine Dining Linux - Because Many Poor Choices Are Still Better Than 2 Good Ones Linux - It's Free, so STFU Linux - We Know What You Want, And Give You What We Want Linux - For A Forking Good Time Linux - Works On Clusters, Clusterfuck On Desktops Linux - The Emperor Has No Clothes Linux - It's not free, it's worthless! because i can show a screenshot to my pals with one fucking command: me: xwd | nc -l -p 27000 -q 1 them: nc 190.51.xxx.xxx 27000 | xwudOMG you are so l33t. You get a hard-on using the command line? IShowing a screenshot with one command. Wow. That is up there with bragging about turning your linux desktop into a cube or a fish tank. As if using cntrl-alt-printscreen + paste into email take 5 hours. What exactly do you use Bash for that makes your life easier? What couldn't be done with Cygwin? Linux fish tank for those who haven't seen it So, it has come down to this... the most outstanding advantage of Linux over Windows is the ability to share a screenshot over the network with one line of command on the console. Yo, what the hell is this "winchot" business? Sounds like a rifle or something. Yes, most new freetards are like Alvarez: 16 year old boys who have bought into the lies and zealotry spread by older men such as Stallman. It's the software version of NAMBLA. Excuse me, that's GNU/NAMBLA. I love how the community sees itself as "intelligent" when really its "arrogant". Using a command line does not make you smarter. That would be like a crane operator claiming to be "far more intelligent" than you simply because he knows how to work a complex piece of machinery. @Alvarez. Did you read at least one post of this blog? What the fuck are you trying to demonstrate? What do you want to say? Is this the freedom you are learning in FLOSS? Do you want attention? Do you understand that, if this fucking Linux stuff would work better it would be a great platform for many more people? Do you understand that it doesn't because of internal problems?Do you understand that not everybody is a programmer? And that among programmers not everybody is interested in FLOSS? And that among FOSS programmers not everybody is interested in RMS stuff? And that the same applies in general for life? And that that's exactly like in the nice fractal wallpapers that you make? BTW, they are really cool. And you know, they are not good because of GIMP, they are cool because of the fact you did them and you did them well. BTW, You can do the same in every platform. But remember that many people CANNOT do what they want under Linux. But almost everybody can do what they want in Windows and partly under Mac. Why? Because Linux sucks in many things for many people. Relax. And, if you feel, answer. شات الشله شات الود شات تعب قلبي شات برق شات الخليج شات بنت السعودية The Linux elder and the convert. A play by .net jerkface. Elder: Switch to linux and you'll never have to deal with windows problems again. You'll never have to deal with windows malware. All the cool smart kids are using it. It's really fast. I love it. You'll love it. You'll never have to buy windows again. Convert: It's free and really fast? Well ok I'll try it. Elder: Great welcome to the club. Convert: Thanks. 2 weeks later Convert: Where can I buy Linux games? Elder: There are lots of free Linux games like Quake 3 and Tux Racer. Convert: Yea but not many new ones. Elder: That's because game companies don't want linux to be successful. Just buy a console. Convert: Like the xbox? Elder: ARGH! Haven't I taught you anything? That would just mean more money for Microsoft. Convert: The point of linux is to keep money from going to Microsoft? Elder: In some ways yes. So buy a PS3 or a Wii. Convert begins to lose faith. 1 month later Convert: Hey I noticed that my scanner doesn't work with Linux. Elder: Just buy a new one. Convert: My cell phone doesn't work with Linux either. Elder: Just buy a new one. Oh and make sure you buy one that is on that list of cell phones that I sent you. Convert: You mean that list of 3 cell phones? Great. Oh and itunes doesn't work with Linux. Elder: ARGH. You sent money to Apple? Haven't I taught you anything? Convert: I got an ipod as a Christmas gift from my mom. Elder: Well your mom is retarded then. Sell it on ebay and buy a different one. Convert loses even more faith. 3 months later. Convert: I upgraded ubuntu and now I have no sound. Elder: Just buy a new sound card or wait a few months for another update to fix it. Convert: It's a laptop. Elder: Well wait a few months then. Convert: I have to wait for an update to fix an update? Elder: (loses control) FUCK. Did you know that my uncle had some software that didn't work in vista? So I guess windoze sometimes breaks software too. Convert: That was an OS change. I never had windows update take away my sound. Elder: Well Windoze is just as bad. I mean come one. Blue screen of death and everything. Yea. And Vista Sux. So there. Just wait a few months for the patch. Or buy a new laptop. Make sure you buy one that isn't from an evil manufacturer. Convert: Umm..sure...thanks for the advice....Linux sure is neat and stuff (reaches for restore cd). Using Linux isn't some superior intellectual exercise. It's actually quite easy. The problem start when you have to troubleshoot Linux, or actually get work done. That's, as well, isn't Hard (with a capital H), it's simply tedious, or impossible. Obscurity isn't cleverness. Cumbersome isn't complex. Knowing of tons of obscure, mostly useless details of operating a fringe operation system does not make you intelligent, it's just junk knowledge, since that knowledge changes on each release, and does not converge into a whole. At most, mastering Linux makes you an IT helpdesk, or a wannabe sysAdmin. Linux - running in circles is the way forward. Linux - facts are subjective. Linux - trivia is intelligence. Linux - Hitting your head against the wall is fun. Linux - futility is inevitable. The play is funny because it's true. Let us not forget the We've lost an Ubuntu convert to an iPod Touch thread on UbuntuForums, the bastion of brainwashed teen Lintards. And I guess that's the way the elder reacted after he reached for the restore CD @"Copying Open Office documents to USBkey" Linux Desktop seems to do strange things to external USB flash devices. I remember trying to copy MP4 videos from Ubuntu 8.10 to my PSP device, suddenly giving me errors about folder permissions WTF???? Fat32? I had to mess around and schmod 777 the folders and files on my USB flash drive to get it to work properly. Anyways I'm done with Linux desktop. Some people say "it's come a long way", I say PooPoo. It only recently supported wireless cards with WPA, and works almost barely. And don't even talk to me about WPA SSID with spaces in them. Most distros BORK with those. And what does "come a long way" mean? Is there now a single stable desktop/sound/video/LSB standard? besides firefox, openoffice evolution, and gimp, what groundbreaking application was made? Where is DVD video and DVD menu creation program? Why is there no gnome equivalent of Krita? No better equivalent to Dia? (gnome draw doesn't count), BD support? Send to context menus? I'm sorry but running windows apps in wine is not the solution I'm looking for. If that's the only case, why bother to switch? Goodbye Linux, hello OSX, BSD, Win7, Solaris, ReactOS. At least those have standards which don't change drastically every 6 months. Let us not forget the We've lost an Ubuntu convert to an iPod Touch thread on UbuntuForums, the bastion of brainwashed teen Lintards.Good lord that thread shows everything that is wrong with the linux cult. Instead of just putting the poor girl back on xp, they actually suggested: 1. Don't use the ipod, buy a different mp3 player. 2. Run itunes in a virtual machine. You don't need Windows. Wait I guess you do, but instead of simply inserting the restore cd you should setup a virtual machine. 3. Dual boot xp and ubuntu. Want to run itunes? Time to restart you computer! Yay Linux is fun. I love how the community sees itself as "intelligent" when really its "arrogant". Dial that arrogance to hubris and you get an inability to see the forest from the trees when discussing the future and potential new sources of computing systems. Their blind "Linux is superior in every way" and "everything Microsoft does is garbage" attitude has not only blinded them to deficiencies in their system and strengths in Microsoft's, it has also blinded them to the erosion of both marketshare and mindshare in traditional and emerging markets. Sure, servers remain strong, but Linux is out of aging UNIX setups to displace. Even then Solaris and FreeBSD and seem to be gaining interest, especially with off-the-shelf projects such as pfSense, Monowall, and FreeNAS. Linux has no presence whatsoever in the small device markets held by the likes of iPhone, iPod, Windows Mobile, PSP, and Game Boy. The rapid fire failures of Linux in these ventures does not leave one optimistic to the future, either. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying DesktopIsDead(TM), but part of the competitive advantage of being the small guy is that you can maneuver faster than the big guys. When the big guys can come in and corner an emerging market faster than you can even recognize that it happened (e.g. netbooks), it means that there is no competitive advantage. Linux being unable to capture risky, unstable markets at the rate Microsoft, Apple, Sony, and Nintendo do means that Linux is slower and less efficient than the big boys that they openly mock. Were Linux a traditional business, the recommendation would be "compete or die". Some vendors, like RedHat and Zimbra, seem to already see the writing on the wall. As others have stated, it's all over if interest drops among the aging corps of hardcore hackers drafted between the late 80s and late 90s, which encompasses the overwhelming bulk of effort. The RMSes, ESRs, Perenses, and Torvaldses that were so plentiful fifteen years ago have dried up. Linux is on borrowed time unless it markets itself in a way to capture the hearts of young visionaries. 1. Don't use the ipod, buy a different mp3 player. YouDontNeedThat(TM) 2. Run itunes in a virtual machine. You don't need Windows. Wait I guess you do, but instead of simply inserting the restore cd you should setup a virtual machine. RunItInWine(TM) 3. Dual boot xp and ubuntu. Want to run itunes? Time to restart you computer! Yay Linux is fun. DualBootIsAlwaysAnOption(TM) LOL From the Ubuntu forum:, maybe you should have done what needed to be done in the first place. The person wasn't a "convert", you just installed it on her computer and called it a day. Then when stuff she wants doesn't work, what's the first thing that happens? That's right, she wants what works back. What you should have done was clean and recondition the copy of Windows like any non-fanboy would do. This is more proof that Ubuntu (and Linux in general)is not ready for desktop use. I say: Make Windows her main desktop again, leave anti-virus off and teach her safe computing.Here's another funny freetard: Have had a similar issue here. My younger son used Kubuntu for six months until he went to 6th form college. He then decided he wanted XP back so he was "fully compatible" with the college. Couldn't argue there. Then six weeks ago he finally got fed up with always having to check for viruses, mallware etc, and asked for Kubuntu to be put back on. Then he went and got an iTouch!!!! I don't get fed up with always having to check for viruses malware, etc. I just don't run random programs on my computer. Strange concept! Run software for an Apple product on a Windows virtual machine on Linux Rube Goldberg would have loved this... Linux - it's good enough for you too, dammit! you just have to try harder! For people who tend to get malware the easiest solution is to make them use vista in a limited account. There is also the question of what exactly are they doing that leads them to get malware when most computer novices I know are able to keep their computers clean. The only exception was a friend who didn't want to pay a measly $20 for GTAIII and downloaded a warez version. His computer was turned into a battleground for competing malware. Needless to say he learned his lesson. I have heard it is common at places like geek squad for people to bring in computers filled with malware and blame it on the teenagers who were looking for porn. Always the teenagers of course. But Linux as a solution to malware? Reminds me of people who propose the public bus as an alternative to the car. Sure it works for some individuals but will it meet the demands of a typical American family? Give me a break., this is why I've stopped trying to convert people. The truth is that a lot of folks stay with Windows primarily because they are dependent on Windows-only software/hardware or because they're afraid of the unknown. Being pushed by a Linux zealot into conversion away from Windows gives them the perfect excuse to blame you for anything that goes wrong. If they had a problem in Windows, it would be "Stupid computers." Once they have a problem in Linux, you can be sure it'll be "Stupid Linux. I want Windows back." In order for people to successfully move away from Windows to Linux, they have to want to do so. I'm more than happy to help anyone I know who wants to make the switch... but given how many people I know who have to use iTunes for their iPod Touches or iPhones, I don't see that happening any time soon.Hardware and software? Computer being used for more than just the operating system? People actually using their computer for software to do stuff? Weird. Windows one ups your screenshot sending by letting you invite others to view your session. heee? i realy realy like this amazin awesome blog! without doubt! and i'm using arch linux :) write on!!! :) waitaminit ... i just did apt-get upgrade on my Ubuntu install that I've been kicking the tires on for a few months (like I said, I like checking stuff out) ... and now my wireless and VPN connections are gone. Tell me this isn't normal. What'd I do wrong? Did anyone else notice the crappy font rendering in the file manager? Wow all that work to copy files to a usb device AND you get crappy fonts. And check out that taskbar. Clusterriffic. @rockwell Unfortunately things breaks when you upgrade in Linux, and especially in Ubuntu. Sorry :/ Breakage after update normal? Naaaaaah.. Linux - You're not in denial if everyone else is wrong //Unfortunately things breaks when you upgrade in Linux, and especially in Ubuntu. Sorry :/// Umm .. you guys are kidding, right? I mean ... what the hell? I read on a forum i was supposed to apt-get upgrade to get the latest stuff? Please ... you're pulling my leg ... Linux users are a great big pool of beta testers. This is how all of the people who wouldn't think that C++ is some sort of grade get to contribute to the community. captcha: sluxo - sounds like a snazzy rebranding of suxxorz typo - remove the "wouldn't" It's been a long day (slaving over a suse server...) Linux - please insert another coin. it's kinda funny. At the end of the day, the LH crowd may be the last vestige of people who actually care about Linux. Linux - if you care about it- you hate it. Unfortunately things breaks when you upgrade in Linux, and especially in Ubuntu. SorryHey man, you have it all wrong. It's perfectly acceptable for minor revs to break drivers, software, etc. every 6 months. What's unacceptable is when Micro$oft releases a new operating system once in 6 years and some stuff breaks! Tell me freetard how much stuff has been broken in windows and ubuntu when a new OS system comes out? Linux - Because a Buffet Always Beats Fine Dining Win! Linux - We Know What You Want, And Give You What We Want Oh, come on now. This seems to be more a feature of the 2 'good' choices, than the Sizzler's Buffet of Linux. People in glass houses shouldn't throw slogans, though: Outlook - virus email were a joke until we came along. Who's the joke now? Windows Genuine Advantage - In case you forgot you don't own what you bought. Or, more simple: Windows Genuine Advantage - Ours. Windows Genuine Advantage - If we name it positively, d'you think they'll figure it out? Windows - We're way more open than Apples. Trust me. Windows - Something has to be along soon that's better, but suffer this for now. And the next version too. Cash or Chargex? Stay Anonymous, LH: When Fake Steve Jobs was outed, he couldn't be as cool either. >Something has to be along soon that's better, but suffer this for now. Yeah, but it won't be Freetards who come up with the "something better". Freetards have tried, tried and FAILED at that. Lamedude wasn't even entertaining in his reply. What a disappointment. Anyone else find it hypocritical that these guys espouse freedom, First Amendment, and all that, but when it comes to poking fun at the sheep in wolf's clothing that is Linux they're all, "What is your name?! Where do you live?! What is your job?! We demand this info, coward!" Windows - bottom line, stuff works. Linux - bottom line, use windows. If to put it in a semi flowchart: Windows-->want to do X-->Use Software Y. If Problem: Bitch, moan--> stuff works. Linux--> want to do X-->YouDontNeedThat(TM)-->use windows If Problem: Bitch, Moan-->Conspiracy!(TM), ShiftBlame(TM), InTheFuture(TM), YourFault(TM)--> use windows. Linux - moar duct tape. It's so funny to read those threads on Ubuntuforums where a "Hi, I'm new to Ubuntu" post comes in begging for information on how to play DVDs or use WiFi or do video editing and no one gives the real answer: "go back to Windows". LOL @ "Man up and debate me via video conference". The nerd clearly has thrown down the gauntlet ..er.. mouse. Completely hypocrital. But only point Lunduke didn't answer is: I still think I make better points. Also, I do it without wasting 30 minutes of peoples time by making them watch your inability to deal with xrandr.”That is the part that pwnd him. And he couldn't say anything. @May 19, 2009 3:54 PM Your flowchart = ROFLMAO. Great! It wasn't the first time: Here he was literally screaming for the happiness of getting some attention by the idiots of boycott novell. This crazy guy hoped that he made the video of the history, he failed and now he want some success. He's a super-freetard, trying to change linux using freetardism, when linux is dying because of that. FUCK LINUX HEIL LINUX HATER OMG,an admirer of Lunduke started his blog to tell everybody why linux sucks. you know what it means, IMO? That in few months there will be a lot of "ILoveLinuxButItSucksALittle(TM) blogs, that then will be used to shut up even more real criticism by answering "You see, our good community is able to criticize, and we LOVE it". It will be cool to criticize Linux in this useless way. Of course things won't change. For sure. What needs to be done is zealot style trolling ("Linux does NOT suck, you are just too dumb to use it", etc.) on these posts that are starting to crop up. In fact...let me get started. Oh yes, Windows it's so open even though just about every security firm on the planet is now saying its more secure than OS X and even Ubuntu. Security and safety are two different things. Linux - Relive the early 90's every day Don't listen to the experts. It's 1997 and you can insta-pwn any Windows machine with WinNuke. But Linux as a solution to malware? Reminds me of people who propose the public bus as an alternative to the car. Sure it works for some individuals but will it meet the demands of a typical American family? Give me a break. Linux isn't the people who suggest the bus instead of a car. Linux is the guy in the corner who bikes to work. And not the friendly guy who does it for exercise, oh no. Linux is the flaming prick who walks around in the padded shorts and lectures people about big oil. And he never quite gets that you can't put $200 in groceries in the handlebar basket, and having to carry people around on the handlebars would get old. Ok, after the apt-get upgrade ... I was able to boot back into an older kernel ... thank goodness. At least wifi is back. Still, that's whacked. How would a "average joe" know what to do. Hmm ... What is the story behind "winchot"? What's the insult? Does the -chot mean something? Does it rhyme with some other word? What? As far as the average user is concerned kernels are what you use to make popcorn. Captcha: dessed a new utility designed to undo any operations performed by sed. Your a coward my friend Your a coward my friend Your a coward my friend Your a coward my friend @May 19, 2009 5:25 PM Nicely done. "Windows Genuine Advantage - In case you forgot you don't own what you bought." LOL It's more like - In case you forgot you don't own what you got off your neighbor/son/bit torrent. Point conceded, though, WGA chafes a nerve, along with the even more paranoid anti-piracy stuff in Vista and beyond (yes my software is 100% legal). The counter argument is that MS is entitled to receive their due from anyone using their software. This measure would not be necessary if there were fewer freeloaders - I remember people selling burnt CDs of Win98 and Office07 in the Buy&Sell way back (and I got my ads yanked when I tried selling Linux CDs to make a few lousy dollars). No one has a perfect system. But, as is stated every now and then, this place is a haven for Desktop Linux "hate". There's plenty of crap about Microsoft flung around out there already for anyone to read. Some is true, and a great lot of it is tired old BS and FUD, which is exactly what this place gets accused of. For myself, it's more for the laughs. No one on the net is going to change my views anyway. I've suffered system breakage with Linux (including today after updating a fresh server), so that's not BS, and I somehow manage to keep my home desktop running months without a reboot or GPF, years without a virus or reinstall, and never have had an update pooch something, except once on a grotty old win2k server, and recovery was an F8 - Use Last Known Good Configuration away As they say here: WorksForMe!(tm) Hey, Bill, are you the same guy as before posting about PJ? Just curious, haven't seen him around in a while. This post has been removed by the author. :'( Come on. I might be the only one here interested in the PJ crusade. @rockwell At least it didn't break X. Try installing the latest drivers from nVidia and do a simple kernel update. Et voilà, xorg.conf totally fucked up! Oh, and xorg recovery in Ubuntu always failed with me, someone else here got it right? I remember doing dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg after every kernel upgrade, and then reinstalling nVidia drivers each time. Windows users raving about Linux users, I don't know who is more sad.. the armwaving freetards or the Windows mob here unable to look beyond their shitty desktop systems This blog rocks! I just spent 6 hours hacking together a working Suckbuntu 9.WTF. Ya see, I'm smart, I have two partitions, one has the broken new shit and one has stable 8.10. And to think I just turned my box with Nvida graphics card into a server and opted for Intel graphics just in time for Intel regression fail! After getting Pulse audio to work right, WTF, Audacity does not work. Who ever wrote the following: "Windows Genuine Advantage - In case you forgot you don't own what you bought." LOL It's more like - In case you forgot you don't own what you got off your neighbor/son/bit torrent. Linux - Because a Buffet Always Beats Fine Dining Holy Crap thats funny! LH, You rock! This is some of the funniest stuff I have read in a long time! From Lunduke's reply: How about a debate on how the format of your blog is either helpful or harmful to the Linux (and software in general) world? I guess it helps, but only a little. No one can help Linux unless he has the power to do fundamental organizational changes to Linux development, something like major Linux vendors join force to develop for a single distro. @ May 19, 2009 4:53 PM Sir, I love you, and I would like to apply to your crusade captcha: undie, since desktop linux is "undead" Lunduke just doesn't seem to get it, His first response was bad enough, now it's pathetic. @John Monteiro "You're" not "your". Idiot. @Obscurity isn't cleverness. SecurityByObscurity(TM) @Cumbersome isn't complex. ItsComplexNotCombersome(TM) LOL O linux is showing it's age. Too little Too late, there are better alternatives out there in server/desktop, and now embedded. I dare say if Apple was smart enough to license or coproduce it's iPod OS to GPS/embedded devices watch out! Ipod/OSX totally rocks! And I'm primarily windows user! Much respect to the programmers of Apple and Microsoft! Linux OS is like a poor fake Apple Ipod touch clone. You know, the ones they sell for 70 bucks on the street corner? linuxitouchclone=looks similar but shoddy made, poor interface and bad integration with components, can only do a few functions that are builtin (calulator/notepad), practically no third party games or apps. Don't mess or alter code or end up with breakage (just like desktop linux) real ipod touch/phone=totally rocks, everything tightly integrated and makes sense, easy to control gui, wifi built-in, can download and run TONS of cool applications, games, productivity/special software. Worth every dollar as new software keeps popping daily and large catalog of cool software. "Hey, Bill, are you the same guy as before posting about PJ? Just curious, haven't seen him around in a while." Are you talking to me? "I might be the only one here interested in the PJ crusade." Which crusade? The one against iPhone jailbraking? Groklaw's crusade on proprietary products PJ isn't so bad after all as she prefers Mac OS X! I'm sure PJ and LH could become real good buddies. Poor Winux Hater! Did the mean old "freetard" hurt your widdle feelings? Why YES he did! LOL! This blog is a circle jerk! Look at all the little Wintards yipping like tiny poodles! I love you linuxhater (no homo) But seriously, that video from lunduke`s made me puke, a bunch of stuck-up assholes pretending not to praise the allmighty linux.. If linux were a person his colon would be filled to the brim with those freetards` faces. I`ve read all of your posts and I believe you have the right attitude towards the epic shitstain that is linux. I know you don`t care about me, but I hope you never stop posting on your blog; smart people such as yourself are hard to come by in this world largely divided into linux fanboys and ignorant twats. Oh look! Ken "Darwinian Anomaly or Thalidomide Tragedy?" Saborio hangs out here! Poor "linux hater" -- surrounded by retards! Linux, FOSS and espcially FSF and GNU are circlejerks. This blog, at best, is a a circlepuke, where we non-freetards come to empty our guts after being nauseated by the tech press and freetardian blitzkrieg. Looks like another organisation has fallen for Linux propaganda: Luckily we've got the brain cells that frequent this blog to tell them what a POS their network is. To the anonymous above: Recognizing Linux's faults and general suckiness does make you, or anyone else, more intelligent. Leave the presumptuousness, masturbatory self congratulation and general nastiness to the FOSS crowd. Linux - it's a lie. Another thought provoking, elegantly stated, nugget of wisdom from one of the brain cells. Keep it up, you just prove my point. How about Intel's Moblin effort? People keep claiming Linux for netbooks has failed once and for all, but surely Intel is not run by retards. "but surely Intel is not run by retards." 2 words: Rambus Deal ;) Intel has had a few idiot moments. We'll see whether or not this becomes another. Linux - For the Natural Born Luser Linux - For those who think Pity is Envy Moblin seems really nice, but you see, it's not like Linux as a whole would suddenly become better thanks to this. Anyway that prove that the only viable way to make Linux work is the cathedral model, and being a company with a shitload of money to dump on this project helps too (because developers have to eat, you know). Also, seems like they are working on having standard ABI/API on this one, and that acually means two things: 1) applications designed for Moblin would work only on this, and 2) applications written for other Linux distros would never work if those use different/incompatible libraries (primarly I mean no Gnome/KDE apps, althoug some command-line programs could still work, but that really depends on the code). Agreed. Moblin is getting a lot of positive attention lately. So does Android. What do we learn from this? Linux by itself is worthless. The only good thing that may come out of it is companies throwing money and manpower at it and shaping Linux to fit their needs. Google does so, too, with its "GoogleOS". For that, Linux is well-suited. It's a technology playground, useless buggy beta-crap on its own and you might find a few cool things here and there, but to make use of these things you need to create a real platform. Which is apparently the one major thing the FOSS crowd can't ever do - because the whole bazaar model fails in that regard. "It appears that the current cause célèbre freetard, Lundumb, a.k.a. Brian Lunduke, came to the attention of the Linux Hater because Lundumb (badly) produced a video based on a presentation Lumbdumb titled, charmingly enough, "Linux Sucks!" As if far too many of us in the community don't know that already. "Coward? You're calling Linux Hater a coward? Do you know who the real coward in the Linux community is? Her name is Pamela Jones. Yeah, that Pamela Jones, keeper of Groklaw." Link Does Moblin look like a default GNOME desktop to you, motherfucker? Then why are you treating it like one? Say "what" again, bitch. And agreed also here. I mean, if someone puts money on Linux and makes something that works (and at least visually it seems that some professionalism was involved), well, there's nothing strange or miraculous. The only Linux merit is to give a 60% already-done job, open to other companies to build from. And that's fine. Probably, that means that the possible merits of Moblin will be circumscribed to Moblin. Uh, I'm curious to try it. I just watched the official video: no mention of Linux (good! They learnt the first lesson: don't scare the user), and a reasonable professional production (audio and video NOT made with OSS tools, I'm sure :P ). Of course, the video doesn't answer to the first "next question" of the user: "Can I install other apps?". And I didn't say MS apps. cheers People keep claiming Linux for netbooks has failed once and for all, but surely Intel is not run by freetards.. FTFY. Uh, sure, Intel is a company, if they fail, they are in deep shit. When freetard community development fails, they can always say: it's free, ItsYourFault(tm) etc. Remember, freetard: moblin is intel's stuff. Google? the same. Apple? the same. The word, the idea, the slightest smell of "FLOSS" is not connected at all with that. Now they are asking the community to provide software, add-ons for it, because without that, Moblin will have a short life, and they know. Apple did the same many years ago. Now, please, can all freetard go home and copy some iphone apps for Moblin and for free? Thanks. Ooops, sorry, dear communards, I forgot: before you go and copy some apps, please check ALL the Moblin's source code. You know, EU recently demonstrated that Intel is really $$$ addicted, so, before use their OS, I want to be sure that bugs and absence of suspicious software are checked by the common effort of the community. ROFL. Even Dell thinks Linux Desktop doesn't need the last version: YouDontNeedTheLastVersion(TM) And to the french polcie force that are migrating to Linux desktop, good luck on your next dist-upgrade or service pack rollout. Better not add anything not in repository and or upgrade or risk breakage hell. ROFLMAO So, went a little further checking moblin website (no download, it seems that there's a freetard over excited assault to moblin's pages. from the website: This section introduces you to some of Moblins key applications; the Moblin Web Browser, and Moblin Media player.So, it's a browser and a media player (I'm not really impressed by the word "some" in "...some of Moblins key apps"). Ahhh, finally I can recognize my old, dear Linux in all its awesomness. It's the peak of the YouDontNeedThat(tm) culture. Now, I don't want to sound pessimistic, but either they will inform *very* well the possible future customers about the real limitations of the system, or, once again, it will be an epic fail, slightly reduced by the fact that it doesn't look like shit (as the xandros os looked imo). Let's see... Ahah, great article! It seems that in Dell they are reading LH blog or that they would really agree with it! They also say that they don't care about what freetards think/want. A mainstream user does not care if it's [Ubuntu Linux] 8.04 or 8.10 or 9.04 (he/she does not know what those are) -- she just wants it to work right and be stable/safe...Most of the Linux enthusiasts would not like to be so far behind (i.e., 8.04 vs. 9.04), but they are not our primary target audience for the [operating system] imageLinux enthusiasts (freetards) pwnd. Good. I am using linux for 7 years, not on programmers/developers level, mostly on end user usages. I'd used distro like red hat, fedora, gentoo, ubuntu (oh btw, ubuntu literally meant u as you, buntu as dead end in our language, lol) , centos and recently opensuse. For most part, I use them for server purposes, like web hosting, web apps development, bind/named, samba and etc. For desktop experience.. those distro failed to impress me. I would rather using Windows or Mac OS X for delivering end product to my customer. Rather trying to figure out/solving problems by hardware/software in Linux for hours, which is always has been the problems with Linux distro for end user like me. It is much faster for me to author using proven software than get thick off and wasted time to deliver products in time. For some users who has experienced in Linux may say, go to the forum to get help, use command line/syntax rather using the GUI?.. ugh I didn't know GUI is obsolete nowadays?, most beginners will turn their face away after getting difficulty in learning command line, post bugs, wait for the new fixes, the attitude of get it work on your own (hey it's free so no more question ask). But for normal people/user like us who need to feed families, we couldn't wait no more, we could pay some geeks, engineers or programmers to do it if they could do it much faster. I could use various apps on windows/mac platform to get things done much, and get paid and continue living. It's not that we don't like linux and oss, we like them. But for less experience end user (which is populating around the globe), linux distro offer less experience which is killing linux in the end. Unless there are no changes or revolution inside Linux community, graphic libraries, programming/developer tools, standardize tools/libraries, and issues, expect Linux no less for desktop, it is dying. I think this blog is slowly becoming one of the most accurate tech site on the web. Really. Captcha: aughtxp... anything xp? You are sick @destera. Welcome, and I agree with you in every detail (being myself mainly an end user, though in the audio field). I really liked this part so I'll quote it. I could use various apps on windows/mac platform to get things done much, and get paid and continue living. It's not that we don't like linux and oss, we like them.I'd like to read stuff like that more often especially on linux-related websites. ciao. Just tested Ubuntu 9.04 today on a Dell Optiplex 755. I read that some were calling Ubuntu 9.04 "as slick as windows 7 or Mac OS X"; such an opinion was written on a "respectable blog", in this case Cnet. WTF? In just one hour this afternoon I have seen a huge amount of "Epic fails" when running Ubuntu 9.04, such as the inability to access my windows share, window content redrawing failure under X and Firefox running like crap. Aren't there some serious bloggers out there to point out how deluded these freetards are? I mean, there is only this blog which is quite well known and that's it? There's not a "well known" and "respected" blogger on Cnet to give the freetards a good reality check? By the way, why did this Lunduke dude fail to report the ballant stupidity of such articles? we could pay some geeks, engineers or programmers...I actually did it once. I asked the programmer of Lilypond for a feature. Luckily this really particular feature was already available through some scheme programming, so he gave me the hack, he documented it, and he told me the price for the time he spent: 25€ (15 minutes of work). He already tried to setup a pay-per-feature system, so his requests were public to the users. I was lucky: for other features the price was of hundreds to thousands euro, and the feature I'm talking about is absolutely impossible to realize on the commercial available solutions. But everybody can understand that this is not a suitable system, even sharing the money with other users, in particular if it's about a small, specific field (how many contemporary composers out there? :-) What I should have done? Learn C++ and Scheme to make music and be free ? I actually learnt and still do some Lisp and and a lot of graphical programming as pure data and max. But there's a real line between the programming skills that a composer (without a prior and proper programming education) can learn for his needs (advanced as they can be), and the programming required to make or modify a complex application. Programming is a wonderful art, but as all professions, it needs a lot of time, dedication and talent. A 16 years old h4x0r maybe doesn't understand it, but freetardlandia is not only populated by kids, sadly. But everybody can understand that this is not a suitable system And I meant for both the user and the programmer, which has all my respect and esteem(in the case of the Lilypond programmer). We both have to eat. captcha: cracesed, another sed-related utility (in those freetards years I even learnt what sed is. I'm smart enough, you see? Dr AJG’s Commentary I probably should point out a few issues regarding my relationship with Microsoft: 1. I don’t like them. I don’t like their attitude, and I don’t like their products in general. 2. The last time I willingly used a Microsoft software product, was in 1990: I unfortunately used Microsoft Word to write my dissertation. (Ocasionally I have to use MS WIndows since the classrooms I teach in have instructor computers running MS Windows, but I don’t consider that “willingly”.) 3. Since 1993, the department I worked in has moved from NextStep, to Openstep toGNU/ Linux. (We did inherit an MS WIndows lab for a while from another department but have changed it to GNU/Linux since then.) 4. If I am bias (and I probably am) then I am bias against Microsoft. None of this of course means that I like unfounded accusations or one-sided statements. Free software can and will stand on its own. We do not need to stoop to inappropriate behaviour. Fuck you, fuck you all! Everyone here is a freetard. Just a bunch of freetards arguing amongst each other. Fuck you, fuck you all!Well, you are a freetard trolling by quoting another freetard. So you are an asshole, while Dr. AJG is only a freetard. Anyway, funny enough that a math uni teacher and gnumeric dev doesn't use MS stuff since so long time. If I would be in him, even respecting his "attitude", I'd check every second month how excel or other spreadsheets look and work, at least to keep my effort focused... Weird. Everyone here is a freetard. Just a bunch of freetards arguing amongst each other. Uhu, it seems that all the freetards stopped checking moblin pages, they got frustrated, so they come here. Come on! Go and watch "Matrix" for the n time and dream. "Free software can and will stand on its own." Absolutely! But not all free software. Linux - That Penguin Gots No Legs Pa! I guess prof wossname hasn't got an ipod, iphone, BD-ROM, kickass-gaming-rig, etc, etc, insert-list-here. captcha: clatin - who started the rumour of RMS promoting latin as the universal free language? Here's the new latin c library Linux hater calls accuses another linux hater of being a freetard. News at 11. You are a total jackass!! Why the fuck do you care what the FOSS community is doing? You obviously dont use any FOSS do you? Big man with real name hides his blog from the public. IRONY. "You don't have the courage of your convictions to come out in public and support your views." Perhaps you should read his post, like the "Do you really think I want freetards hassling me in my real life?" part. It's perfectly understandable to anyone with an IQ over 50. "CHICKEN, you are CHICKEN PS I used my real name to flame" An absolute nobody, that no one's ever heard of uses his real name to call some anonymous guy "chicken" on the web. Wow, I gotta give it to you, you really got some balls! It must've taken a lot of courage for sure. This is sad, some Hatetard told me to come here for cogent arguments, all I find are some tossers arguing amongst themselves. Until you can stop forking the hatred and put together one set of reasons why Joe Sixpack should hate Linux, people are never going to understand why Free software sucks. I tried hating Linux for a while, but had to go back to loving it again when all you could me were pissing matches. @May 20, 2009 10:01 PM God that was incredibly lame. Do something more entertaining next time. @ May 20, 2009 10:04 PM Sorry, Lunduke was trying to hump my leg while I was writing that, I'll do better next time round. @May 20, 2009 10:27 PM Bring him to the vet, he could have the RMSmaniosis. Took Lunduke to the vet, he said Lunduke's too much of an navel-gazing cuntbox to be allowed to live. Put him to sleep right then and there. The best thing was: the vet did it for free! Said he'd tried Ubuntu 9.04 Jolloping Jackanapes, and it was 'fucking shit'. So, no more Lunduke. Not that anyone'll notice. @Darrin Ritter. Your all anonymous cowards? First off, no on owns all the anonymous cowards here, and second, the correct statement should be All of your anonymous cowards... followed by a description of what the anonymous cowards are doing or being. Unless you mean "You're all a bunch of anonymous cowards". You're is the proper contraction of the words you are and denotes the state of being of a group. As for putting a real name up, anyone can create a name online and claim it is their real name, since they're not going to have to show paperwork to prove it. P.s. Freetards/Lintards: please note the distinction between your and you're. It is also important to know the differences between they're, their, and there; please define and discuss they're, their, and there. Extra points will be awarded. Basically LH insults Lunduke because Lunduke's criticism of Linux is too gentle, and misses crucial points like "G-P-fucking-L". This reminds me of the RMS/Torvalds debate over whether FOSS is about ideology or about better quality software. From what we've seen in the past, I feel the linux hater community is in the danger of fragmentation. Since LH is more extreme, he's the RMS equivalent, and he showed similar traits by aggressively claiming credits (you just took my posts and made them and to slides) reminiscent of the GNU/Linux naming claim. Lunduke is nothing but a pathetic attention whore. He "points out" the obvious and fails in proposing anything useful. Challenging anonymous people is also extremely stupid, unless you're Mike Tyson. Darrin Ritter, from Australia, who filed 3 bugs for Ubuntu feels like he can lecture people who have done more and for longer time with and toward Linux. Darrin Ritter, you are nothing but a fool, first because you fail to provide facts to support your assertions, and resort to ad-hominem attacks. Second - because you have absolutely no right to uncover the identities of those who does not wish to do so. Darrin Ritter, you are mindless idiot, a useless old fart with no purpose in life other to fuck itself up his ass with a chainsaw. Now please, either provide facts and engage in meaningful conversation, or I shall taunt you a second time; failing to do either - maybe because you're just too stupid - you may proceed and cut your veins. No one will care. If to rephrase: Anonymity is by choice, stupidity is by nature Wait are you the Daren Ritter that cant get the touch pad working on your dumpy dildo edition of unbuntu, when it worked on the prior vulgar vagina edition? Then you also comment on your twitter +/- a few days that said dumpy dildo distro appears stable? So wait... That makes you a liar AND a retard. So you basciaclly agree with every hater here, only you are too dishonest to admit it, and too stupid to realize that when something (fundamental none the less) worked before, and does not work now, that precludes the possibility that it is "stable". All you need to do now is make some stupid ass comment about "ethics" and Microsoft and the fosstard label applies to you! Wonder why Bill Beebe was able to guarantee that if PJ "comes out in the open" that Linux Hater will crawl out from under his rock the "next day"? Is "Linux Hater" a fat white cracker from Florida who couldn't get Ubuntu to play DVDs? LOL! This place looks like one of those Republitard chat rooms full of ridge browed inbreds! Poor widdle Winux Hater is CHICKENSHIT?!!! Bawhahahahahaha! Are you afwaid, widdle Winux Hater? Aw! OMG, the complexity of the world seems to be too big for the average freetard. In their little world it works like that: hate linux --> love MS hate linux --> Republitard hate linux --> your a n00b choice of anonimity --> chicken linux is broken --> awesome finishing a job --> Republitard MS/Apple/Google/BSD stuff works --> head in the sand. little python knowledge --> h4x0r #1 ls -l | sed (or grep) x --> h4x0r #1 Now do you get the meaning of the neologism "freetard"? Is Linux Hater Bill Beebe? Here is Bill, ranting like the fat fuck he is: "So here's my challenge to the Lundumb. You get PJ to come out in the open, and the very next day Linux Hater will follow suit. But until such time as that happens, Lundumb should just keep his opinions about cowardice under his hat." D'oh! I knew you were an idiot, but it never occured to me that you were a Bill Beebe caliber idiot!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! "This place looks like one of those Republitard chat rooms full of ridge browed inbreds!" Exactly what I was thinking. You can almost hear the banjos. Lets see, denial about current status, and how it got there, and what needs to happen to get out of this situation. Uncertain if that is even possible. While detached from the common public (the great unwashed center as opposed to the activists)feel about their brand. No real clue as to how to contue, or how to reverse the current slide. Increasingly refered to as a pariah by the center. Luminaries and activists saying things that are harful to the brand, on an almost daily basis. People joke about its status and increasingly refer to it as a dead end. Even the most ardent activist, not to mention horeds of former memeber of this group lament its current state. Don't think there is any way to fix. The activists say things that are utterly delusional with regards to current status, and future direction. And I talking about Fosstards or Republicans? You decide. "OMG, the complexity of the world seems to be too big for the average freetard. In their little world it works like that:" Apparently the complexity of English is more than the hapless HaterTard who wrote the above can handle. This place is one short bus full of drooling scoolboys isn't it? lol Heh, the fosstards keeps calling us names. It seems you have forfeited all attempts at coherence, and resorted to name calling. Does your precious little Ubuntu works with either nVidia, Intel or AMD video cards yet? Is the sound layer fixed? the backward and forward compatibility? Printing? Wi-fi? Can you do anything useful with your software except masturbation and beta testing? Oh, that's right, you cannot, and won't be able to in the near to medium to far future. Why? because your development model is a failure. No go back to your mother's basements and ask her for some comfort sex, you pimply overweight, socially inept, reason impaired sons of whores. And no, English is not my native language, so go fuck yourselves in advance. With a chainsaw, up your ass. Anonimity has been used for centuries in satirical writing. Now, without comparing the two (even if LH writing skills are amazing), do you know that many Rabelais writings were anonymous? For those that don't know, they are the biggest attack to religious obscurantism ever made in the history (by a religious person, BTW). The author, besides being one of the biggest figure in French literature, was a key element(and with his real face) within the rennaissance humanism movement. I've seen more republican (hysterical refuse of reasonable discussion, religious views, personal attacks, desire of conquering the world, if you mean that) attitude in FLOSS circles than everywhere else. I don't like MS monopoly at all, but FLOSS attitude sucks and it's worst, in the sense that at least MS is a company, so they have to follow the money. FLOSS agressivity is free. As in fascism. @May 21, 2009 5:59 AM English is not my native language, so no problem in admitting that. Could you now please move your attack to the points I made? Interesting strategy... The fosstards were just repeatedly schooled, and your reply seems to be along the lines of a discussion on that short bus, "Nuh Uh! I know you are but what am I!" I guess thats means you got nothing left, except last post itis. "Even the most ardent activist, not to mention horeds of former memeber of this group lament its current state. Don't think there is any way to fix." Well, my pointy headed little HaterTard, perhaps it would help if illiterate mouth breathers like you stopped torturing English with your witless ruminating here. Also, if Linux Hater hired someone who knows something about technology and could write about it without devolving into a 12 year old boy, that might help. Who am I kidding? There is no hope for the HaterTards, although you have been amusing once in a while. "Heh, the fosstards keeps calling us names." Thank God you are too mature and dignified to indulge in such behavior! I mean, except for "freetard", "fosstard" etc ad nauseam If it was your turn to use the brain, I think you forgot to turn it on. Once again, name calling without contents. You may call me whatever you want, as long as you substantiate your claims. Give proofs, cite sources, demonstrate a counterpoint, and than I may have some respect for you. Since you've proven yourself to be an idiot, you've rightfully earned the title of fosstard. Is the chainsaw running? Your anus is waiting. Well, my pointy headed little HaterTard, perhaps it would help if illiterate mouth breathers like you No, sorry, you attacked the english of MY post (the one with the list of sillogisms x --> y etc), and now you show me a bad english found in another post. Should I point you to the thousands examples of "I don't read/I dont understand well, but I attack" found on this blog, posted by freetards? You are not stupid, this is clear, but stay on the topic, please. Anyway, three answers, and you didn't provide yet any fact. "You may call me whatever you want, as long as you substantiate your claims." Okay, you are a sick, deviant, anally fixated HaterTard hypocrite. Need proof? Consider these quotes from you: "Is the chainsaw running? Your anus is waiting." and: "Since you've proven yourself to be an idiot, you've rightfully earned the title of fosstard." after having written: "Once again, name calling without contents." It's like watching someone step on the same rake over and over again! I knew Linux Hater was an idiot, but his fawning minions are like some new breed of SuperTard! Dear freetards. Stop talking trash and deliver. Make your system worth using and don't let your users down. Let people make a few honest $ with your system, and drop your religous freedom crusade. Go fix the Intel drivers as a starter. Let me work with my OpenGL applications without having to turn Compiz off first. Let me watch my bluray discs, and give me a decent video editor. Until then, just promise not to break my system every 6 months. Feel free to test your packages before actually releasing them. Ok buddy, now relax and stop this crap. Please. You think that if I discuss about anonimity, danger of too easy sillogisms in floss culture, I'm the same person that writes "Is the chainsaw running? Your anus is waiting." ? Look: me, you, the anus guy we are all "anonymous said..." people, but first, you mixed two different posts, insulting english skills. Me, I can recognize your writing even if we are all anonymous. After three answers to you, I got an idea about your mentality, I didn't have any prejudice. You are exactly demonstrating the hystery of too many freetards. Anyway, if you want to discuss here, you are welcome. It's seems you still don't understand why you're a freetard. I'll explain myself more slowly, in a faint hope that you will understand. If you don't, well, more lulz for me. I did not ask for proofs for my deviance, anally or otherwise. That should have been obvious, and if you've failed at that, you do deserve a flaming chainsaw up your anus. It's seems that you somehow try to defend Linux, FOSS and/ or Lunduke. Your defense is obviously lacking, since it is centered around name-calling and other useless rhetorical devices. As you can see, we're all pretty much capable of name calling ourselves, and since you weren't able to conjure a defense that consists of anything else, you've earned all the scorn you deserved. You probably couldn't understand it either, so I'll try to explain in a way you'll understand: You've been POWNED. I no longer have any hope for you, and you should delude yourself that there is any. Death will be a release for you. Please try to do it in a funny way, say, a flaming chainsaw and your anus combined, so at least you'll serve some purpose. @ May 21, 2009 6:51 AM Well said. Unfortunately true. (I'm the not-native-english sillogism guy, this remark is for the freetard up there). News flash: Linpus has apparently fixed linux "The advantages of using a Linux system include advanced power management, optimized boot and shutdown times, as well as more WiFi and 3G support such as software development kits (SDK) from telecommunication providers, Lim said." I wonder if something got munged in the translation... Got many cheap laughs from this TrueBeliever(TM) See how many times you can spot "GNU" in the post from Distributions use gStreamer and/or PulseAudio, etc.. DEB or RPM, etc.. GNOME, Xfce and/or KDE. Because the developers see such software as being superior. Cute! I thought that distros were using this stuff because it was the only one available... I told you, they'll start now the new trend, criticizing Linux in a useless way to try to get back some respect lost because of the bullshits they said (and say) for years. Which brings to a couple of new lines: linux hater --> troll criticizing linux technically, socially, with facts --> troll saying not so focused things against linux, repeating the obvious but writing gnu somewhere and putting in the first line "Linux is the best, but..." --> cool BTW, the "russian list" didn't get any attention from lunduke and co. Sure it starts with "I love Linux", but is detailed and serious. Head in the sand, again? "I did not ask for proofs for my deviance, anally or otherwise. That should have been obvious" Okay, your deviance and anal fixation is obvious. I concur. "you do deserve a flaming chainsaw up your anus." Okay, I get it - you constantly obsess about anal chainsaw rape. "It's seems that you somehow try to defend Linux, FOSS and/ or Lunduke." Really? Provide the quotes that lead you to say that. What? You can't find any? Listen moron: I don't need to "defend" anything. Linux doesn't require me to "defend" it, especially from the likes of you. Nor does "FOSS" or Lunduke, who has done a great job of revealing your hero Linux Hater as a spineless, cowardly thumb sucker! "Your defense is obviously lacking, since it is centered around name-calling and other useless blah blah blah etc" Again: what "defense" are you yammering about? What? You're talking out of your ass? I guess for an anally fixated deviant such as yourself that should come as no surprise! As for "name calling", isn't that Linux Hater's thing? Sure, he borrowed his schtick from smarter people, but he's better at it than his witless minions are! "As you can see, we're all pretty much capable of name calling ourselves" Well, if you think that repeating the names your retard hero uses on his blog makes you "capable", then who am I to burst your bubble? "and since you weren't able to conjure a defense that consists of anything else, you've earned all the scorn you deserved." Again: where is this "defense" you keep whining about? Also "you've earned all the scorn you deserved"? Is that supposed to make sense? And what "scorn"? Your inadvertently hilarious gibbering? A couple of hypocritical HaterTards calling me feeble names someone else made up for them between carrying on about anal chainsaw rape? Some witless kid who I have driven into a frothing frenzy telling me that I have been "pwned"? I guess it's true: the HaterTards have evolved into some sort of mutant SuperTard! Who needs to "defend" anything from the likes of you? I'd rather have a few belly laughs at your expense, like I have already had here today. @May 21, 2009 7:48 AM LOOK! There's the MOBLIN RC ready to download! So fast! Yesterday the beta and today the RC! COOL! Don't waste your time here with M$ slaves. ssssh, (whispering) it's not true, but maybe he'll go somewhere else for a couple of hours. BTW he didn't reply to my points, even if he quoted my comment. sigh, or should I feel honoured? Got many cheap laughs from this TrueBeliever(TM) God, he can't even get out of the second paragraph without throwing up distraction tactics like "Linux" vs. "GNU/Linux". And then he launches into a strawman with the claim that "insane" Linux Hater will only use commercial software and believes any usage of GNU/Linux is "wrong". While Linux Hater may believe that, nothing in his posts indicate such. Furthermore, us truly sane people don't box ourselves in the corner with arbitrary absolutes like, "I resolve to use only GNU and everything else is terrorist anti-freedom". Then he goes back to semantics and the predictable "I think AppX is better than AppY" choice/freedom merry-go-round we've all suffered for 20 years. WantToBelieve(TM) indeed. "I don't need to "defend" anything.". Only a fool would try to defend that mess, and clearly you are no fool. A yammering baboon with all the wit of a dribbling 8 year old with FAS, yes, but no fool. Well, Linux needs no defense from the like of me. What are you doing on this blog, than? Got something to share? About your anus, a chainsaw, and your childhood memories? At least try to be creative. You've been quite boring so far. What are you doing on this blog, then? FTFY, English Master. I can speak for myself: I used Linux and I felt in love for the idea of an alternative. I even liked the FSF culture, at the beginning. After 7 years trying to use linux for my job, spending countless hours learning how to fix broken things, filing bugs, joining mailing lists, I literally needed for someone, much more expert than me, who was saying aloud what's wrong with Linux. Then I found this blog. At first I felt that only few of his rants were right, even if all were really funny to read. I wanted to defend Linux, even when it was impossible. Later, reading more carefully and questioning myself, I went to the conclusion that LH is really right, unfortunately. But you know, it was also the fact that this blog was partly positively reviewed by Linux-foss big names, that convinced me even more. Linux needs more true haters, not "MStards", if they exist (I believe there are really few people around that hate Linux only because they think Ballmer is a genius). If you don't trust me, maybe you'll trust *your* ESR, which, btw, is far from admit the slightest mistake in his bazaar concept. In this blog, thanks to the commenters, I actually learnt the strenght and the weakness of all OSs, or at least I got a different point of view, compared to the mainstream IT journalism. Yes, nowadays is Linux that suffers from the lack of objective criticism from the press. I'd like to see Linux supporters arguing on the technical side against LH's arguments. Claiming superiority is not defending Linux. Saying "linux needs no defense" is not an argument. BTW, unless one is 12, admitting the mistakes is a proof of strenght. Changing broken things in practice and reality, is a proof of wisdom and care. The lack of all that can be easily called, in a synthetic and funny way, "freetardism". One can hate Linux in words (but providing facts!), other people are simply harmful to Linux, lost in their egos, lack of a common target, fanatism and no interest for the average user. So far they were really few freetards that discussed things in detail (Oiaohm, compared to Lunduke and others, you deserve a lot of respect on that). Can you now say (seriously) what are you doing on this blog? Nobody knows anything about the term "Winchot"? It's a spanish language thing, AFAIK. I asked a friend and I'm waiting an answer! I'm in it for the lulz. The vast majority of fosstards are extremely easy target, since they zealously believe something that can hardly be defended. That's part of the reason they revert ad-hominem so early into the argument. xo xo xo Chainsaw anal rape guy. Holy God, that Lludkrab guy's blogpost. Hilarity top to bottom, starting with calling out LH for hating on Linux and not GNU/Linux, proceding to not address or even quote a single statement of LH's, and finishing up with a multi-paragraph restatement of the GNU manifesto. It turns out that using computers isn't about doing things with computers, or using computers to make your life better, it's about "freedom". So what if you can't print, at least you're not using The Man's print driver, and that's what really counts! The only thing missing is a supercomputer reference. He's also the kind of desperate-for-attention type who responds to every other poster in his comment section. And he sure does love his "clever" "scare" "quotes"! ." Golly, you sound absolutely *vehement* about "GNU/Linux"! And here I thought that the whole point of this blog was ostensibly to point out flaws in Linux for the love of it, and to poke zealots in the eye. Yet you are clearly a zealot who despises not only "GNU/Linux" but "its development model" and "many of its developers"! In fact, so addled are you by your festering, zealous hatred that you are induced to say flagrantly idiotic things like "its failure to deliver anything other than an anti-corporate philosophy"! Hello? What do you think this blog is being served on, brainiac? IIS?! How about the Mars rover? What OS do you think runs it? Vista? How about the most powerful computers on the planet? What OS are they running? XP Home Basic? Who is Red Hat's biggest customer? Hint: it starts with "US" and ends with "Army". How do you reconcile the increasing ubiquity of Linux with such retarded statements as "failure to deliver anything other than an anti-corporate philosophy"? Clearly, you are having a problem coming to grips with reality. I'll say it again: I knew that Linux Hater is an idiot*, but his fawning, uncomprehending minions are clearly a whole new breed of SuperTard! *Your presence here vindicates that assessment. You're claiming the Mars Rover runs on Linux? Come on. "You're claiming the Mars Rover runs on Linux? Come on." *sigh* . The RSVP System Our software, a suite of applications called the Rover Sequencing and Visualization Program (RSVP), was developed, tested and deployed on Linux. RSVP gives MER's engineers and scientists sophisticated tools for commanding Mars rovers." My wang's a little sore. I boned some freetard's mom last night while he was busy in the basement playing with Linbuntu Arch Mint. >Rover Sequencing and Visualization Program Yeah? Can you apt-get that? I only see a bazillion text editors in the Ubuntu repository. "My wang's a little sore" Not to worry. With advancements in penis enlargement surgery, you could be packing a rock hard 2 or 3 inches! Oh my God, multi-billion dollar corporation creates an in-house ultra-specific use for Linux which clearly translates to a win on the desktop. The Mars Rover uses VxWorks OS NASA uses Linux for some of its servers, which is fine and dandy. Most (if not all of us), criticize Linux as a Desktop OS. Kudos on providing a reference, you might just start losing the tard suffix. On the other hand, you failed do distinguish between server, desktop, and embedded OSs. EverythingIsTheSame(TM). * sigh * Flaming chainsaws it is. Oh, so now we're redefining what the Rover is. I wasn't aware it consisted of giant brick SGI servers. Here I thought it needed room for stuff like solar panels. I mention the supercomputer argument, and in the very next post, some Lintard starts ranting about how supercomputers run Linux and not Vista Home. Amazing. You're as predictable and constant as the sun rising in the east. Don't ever change, Lintards. Ahahahah, hackers switching to windows7 Look at the comments, inspiring... Oh my God, multi-billion dollar corporation creates an in-house ultra-specific use for Linux which clearly translates to a win on the desktop. ditto. To the other guy, you are only few days late for the GoogleIsLinux(tm) and related. It was discussed for few days in the second page of comments here (comments from 201 to 400): And from LH perspective, read here: (BTW, happy birthday (even if late) to the Linux Hater's blog and readers-commenters!) Bring some new argument to the subject. Anyway you are probably new (if you didn't read the previous LH post and comments), welcome, and, as you see, bringing a reference to arguments is considered here. Exactly as in real world. "Golly [blahblahsameoldfreetardedstuff]... *Your presence here vindicates that assessment." LOL! If I said you were off base on your knee-jerk assessment, would you even bother to read it, or would you rather continue to flog the tired old party line of Clusters and LAMP? I guess my comment, which consisted of nothing more than several of the core themes of What Is Wrong With Linux, touched a nerve or three, didn't it? That's okay, son. Someday you'll realize when you're being baited. About the same time your testies drop and you start to think that girls are more fun than getting excited over an OS that is doomed to be an also-ran on the desktop. No matter how many clusters it runs, it's still a clusterfuck on the desktop. No hard feelings.

Tonight's guests include: Karen Tumulty, national political correspondent for The Washington Post Gabriel Arana, reporter and web editor at The American Prospect and author of the piece “My So Called Ex-Gay Life” While watching tonight's video preview, take a listen to tonight's soundtrack. (Just be sure to allow the ad below to play out entirely before starting the song) Executive producer Bill Wolff shares a preview of tonight's show: It is important for us progressives to acknowledge that members of the NRA run the full spectrum of mental stability covering; Avid sportsman... Normal family man and occasional hunter ... redneck hunter.... rabid redneck hunter... frothing klansman hunter.... certifiable loon .... and at the extreme far end Ted Nugent. Senator Inhof is crazy about Nugent the nut or nuts about Nugent the crazy; you decide which is more accurate. Senator Inhof is in urgent need of a remedial lesson dealing with the English grammar, specifically context. The following is a demonstration of the impotance of context. Pay close attention to the words in italics. I love baseball bats for killing people. I will be dead or in jail in one year if Obama is reelected United States President. The first part represents despair or depression, but couple with the second part it suggests psychotic malevolence. Mr. Inhof, certainly you can see that these two phrase coupled together screams for the question, Why, Why, and once again why!begs an explanation Rachel - first you are my favorite and most informed and intellignet reporter - I want to defent Ms Rosen - she used the wrong first few words but the truth in what she said is quite obvious - Mrs Romney never had to worry about finances, housekeep , child care etc - no comparison to the average homemaker in this country - Keep up the good work in revealing the truth about this Romney compaign - Your devoted Fan! Paul Romney HAS to separate himself from this maniac. Nugent may as well have a pitchfork and torch leading a mindless lynch mob. TRMS - my favorite evening activity. It might be educational to run something about the following. ALEC's Patriot Act caused the Great Recession. Real estate value represents over half of accumulated US wealth, and real estate value depends upon population, and ALEC policies reduced the population from 2006 to 2009. This wealth is destroyed when real estate abandonment becomes common, and that is caused by population decline. The most important changes are periods of unusually high unemployment and poverty. California personal value dropped from 2007 for the first time since 1938 (Legislative Analysis Office, California, 2009). Every period of economic decline corresponds with population decline. These are as follows. Prior to 1873 This is a period of enormous economic expansion with the exception of 1837 to 1843 and 1857 to 1860. The Louisiana Purchase doubled the size of the US in 1803. Ethnic cleansing takes place in Louisiana Purchase territory from 1837 to 1843 due to actions taken by Andrew Jackson. This reduces the Native American population by 50% or more. While most Native Americans are nomadic at the time, they provide migrant labor, trade goods, and consumer demand for manufactured goods (firearms and hardware). This consumer demand was terminated when Native American genocide began and survivors were forcibly removed to the Oklahoma territory by Andrew Jackson. The US calvary is the first modern military organization to engage in biological warfare by providing blankets to Native Americans that were obtained from smallpox wards. Most surviving Native Americans migrate south and west. The Mexican American War added the remaining areas of the continental US in 1848 with the signing of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. The California Gold Rush begins in 1848, and the killing of Native American people legalized to gain mining rights. Many Native Americans living in the west began to flee south to Mexico or north to Canada to avoid being murdered. Gold production propped up the California economy until 1855. The economy collapsed again in 1857. Systematic Native American ethnic cleansing began during the collapse in California, Oregon, Washington, and Idaho as miners cleared the native population to gain access to farmland. Population statistics were not maintained for Native Americans and the US government did not maintain good financial records, so root cause analysis cannot be done. US economic growth resumed in 1860 at the same the Civil War began, which implies Native American genocide is linked with the collapse. Long Depression The "Old West" period of cowboys and indians begins in 1865 with the end of the Civil War. About half of cowboys are African American, and the remainder a mix of Civil War veterans and civilized Native Americans. The Long Depression begins in 1873 with genocide and ends with immigration of millions of Europeans and Mexicans beginning in 1897. This is actually two events that follow the Civil War - the Panic of 1873 and the Panic of 1893. Veterans begin slaughtering buffalo for hides following the Civil War. As many as 100,000 buffalo are killed daily during the Great Buffalo Massacre, littering the Great Planes with skeletons. Native Americans populations were reduced by starvation. Most states and territories legalize the murder of starving Native Americans that kill cattle to survive. This collapses consumer demand and real estate value, bankrupting almost 20,000 businesses, almost 100 railroad companies, and dozens of banks. The Chinese Exclusion Act (1882) accelerated depopulation by deporting most of the 300,000 asians living in the US, with over 200,000 of those deportees coming from California. The Geary Act (1892) required an internal passport for asians. Passports were not issued to most asians, who were deported. Tens of thousands of Native Americans are murdered across California, Oregon and Washington. This collapses consumer demand and real estate value, which bankrupts most of the remaining railroads and hundreds of banks. Great Depression The Immigration Act of 1907 reduces consumer demand, triggering a 50% contraction in the money supply that causes a recession. This is blamed on immigrants, and KKK membership grows to dominate Washington politics by 1915 when a second minor economic collapse is caused by World War I. Work visas are unlimited with a price under $10 at all border crossings and ports with arriving ships. There is no such thing as illegal immigration. The Mexican Revolution causes a large influx of dark skinned people across the southwest border of the US. This leads to the Immigration Act of 1917 after white supremacists gain control of both houses of congress, the presidency, and the supreme court. Thousands of citizens with asian or latin appearance are deported from 1920 to 1929. This reduced the depopulation, which increased vacancy and property abandonment. Most of the economic value of banks is tied up in real estate loans, which triggers a foreclosure boom. On average, more than 600 banks failed each year between 1921 and 1929. The economy utterly collapsed after the National Origins Act of 1929, as follows. This empowered counties and cities to round up people at gun point based on appearance and deport an average of 200,000/year from 1929 to 1939. About 2 million US residents are forced out of the country. [1] The same banks making real estate loans routinely lent money for stock market speculation during the 1920s. Money was lent "on margin", which means a small amount of collateral (real estate) was used to obtain a much larger business loan. Margin lending produced a housing and stock market bubble, where more money was lent by banks than the total amount of available money. A growing economy is stable only so long as increasing demand continues to force prices upward, and increasing demand requires increasing population. An unprecedented number of US citizens and immigrants stopped paying rent and mortgages when they were forced out of the US, which triggered a foreclosure boom in June 1929. A vast number of foreclosure sales triggered a precipitous decline in real estate values that collapsed the housing market by September 1929, which reduced bank assets. The maximum real estate declines occur in California. Decline in bank asset triggered an unprecedented number of margin calls requiring immediate payback of business loans by the end of October 1929.[2] These events caused the stock market collapse on October 29, 1929. Most The states of Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Kansas, and New Mexico have bumper crops during 1930 and 1931 as stock market and real estate values plummeted. Crop prices fall so low that farmers cannot afford transportation costs required to move crops to market. Famine beings on the east coast. Hoover does not interfere as farmers begin to destroy the harvest in an attempt to raise prices, which triggers a mild artificial famine. Mass migration from the east coast to the west coast begins. Ocean temperature changes from 1931 to 1939 cut off moisture to many states, resulting in a drought so profound that dust blizzards become common [4]. The prevailing view in Washington DC politics is that there is insufficient money available to assist farming states, and famine begins in the dust bowl region. Farming failures increase the foreclosure rate, which peaks in 1933. Foreclosure rate declines after banking regulation changes in 1933. Depression era unemployment remains high until 1942 when unemployment drops below 10% at the same time as the beginning of the Bracero Program. Savings and Loan Crisis The Mexican economy collapsed in 1982, which triggered mass immigration to the US of 1 million or more every year up to 1986. Savings and Loan deregulation allowed low-interest loans during this period. This allows borrowers to afford larger loans. This combination of high real estate demand and low-interest loans created a massive increase in real estate prices in Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Florida, and California. Mexican immigration ended abruptly with the Immigration and Reform Control Act, which eliminated demand for new construction. At the same time, interest deductions for real estate investments became non-deductible from primary income, so investors began selling real estate. At the same time, there was a major drought that reduced agricultural productivity. This combination of events created excess capacity, high vacancy rates, and a foreclosure boom that collapsed real estate value. Excess foreclosures collapsed over 700 Savings and Loans, and activated requirements for over $80 billion in insurance by RTC. The Immigration Act of 1990 increased immigration, which ended the downward spiral of real estate prices. Great Recession Illegal immigrants contribute about $200 billion in GSP across the entire US. That consumer demand employs about 10 million US residents. Three important events occur from 2000 to 2006 during the Bush presidency. These regulatory changes cause real estate prices and stock prices to skyrocket as investors borrow as much money as is possible. This is intended to restore economic losses that followed the attack of September 11, 2001. This deregulation does create rapid economic growth, and illegal immigrants flood into the country at the highest rate since the Mexican Revolution from 1910 to 1920. This fuels a construction boom in the American south and west as hundreds of thousands of excess dwellings are constructed. The following begins in 2006. The Mexican economy improves in 2007, and the US population begins to decline. Population decline creates over a million extra dwelling vacancies by 2009. Real estate prices plummet in 2007 and a foreclosure boom begins in 2008 as foreclosure rates increase by 400%. Pres. Bush realizes the magnitude of the coming disaster caused by eliminating depression era financial regulations. Bush signs the Emergency Mortgage Loan Modification Act of 2007 in an attempt to prevent the coming banking system collapse, but it is too late. Real estate value depends upon people to demand dwellings in which to live (US Census Bureau). Immigration departing the US accounts for a drop of about 1.6% in the population in less than 2 years. Each US resident creates consumer demand for real estate, vehicles, food, and consumer goods, and that consumer demand includes illegal immigrants. The illegal immigrant population of Arizona produced $42 billion in GSP during 2008, and immigrant population decline is one of the underlying causes for economic collapse in the American south and west (Immigration Policy Center, 2011). Birth nearly equals mortality during this period, so this population change is entirely due to migration that contributes the following to the US economy. The following shows how migration contributed to part of the decline in US real estate values, which collapses real estate value in the American south and west. The resulting foreclosure boom and real estate collapse in 2007 leaves inadequate asset recovery from foreclosure sales, which reduces bank assets to dangerously low levels. Banks issue margin calls for stock market investments to cover lending losses in an attempt to avoid bankruptcy. Margin calls result in rapid trading that collapses the stock market. Over 60% of value is lost from 2007 to 2009 as the population declines. Investment firms, banks, and businesses lose sufficient capitol that they cannot cover the losses, and the US government is forced to issues loans in order to prevent total economic collapse and double digit unemployment. This chain of events halts the startup of new businesses, at the same time that millions of jobs are lost in manufacturing, real estate, construction, finance, and investment. Departure of 5 million immigrants raised unemployment by about 4 million from 2007 to 2009. A return of 2.6 million immigrants reduced unemployment by about 2 million from 2009 to 2011. [1] Kevin R. Johnson, September 1, 2005, The Forgotten "Repatriation" of Persons of Mexican Ancestry and Lessons for the "War on Terror", Pace Law Review, [2] J.K. Galbraith, 1954,The Great Cra$h 1929 Wednesday, October 23rd 1929 (ch. VI, end of 4) [3]Walden Slew, March 8, 2008, Banks face "systemic margin call," $325 billion hit, JPM, [4] Anonymous, NASA Finds Source of 1930s Drought in Tropical Waters, Goddard Space Flight Center, March 18, 2004, [5] Esmeralda Rodriguez-Scott, Patterns of Mexican Migration to the United States, Center for International Studies, University of St. Thomas, Houston, Texas, [6] I watched the show tonite and got the impression that you thought it might be a good idea to make and use a license plate with the word vajayjay on it Kind of like, yeah, I want my vajayjay in as many faces as possible everywhere I go This seems disturbed and disturbing, and not in a good way to relate to a crowd---kind of like sexual harrassment; or desperate attention seeking No, I'm not a doctor, but I know when something seems over the top and inappropriate, and just wrong; again, like freedom without restraint, license to act mentally disturbed, and my license plate proves it. I think you might be the one that needs a "check up", and remember, not all doctors are created equal Not long ago, I heard a well known bishop state that the reason same-gender-loving people are the way they are is because of spiritual and emotional brokenness. Because this minister is highly regarded and esteemed by thousands worldwide, it wasn’t long before other copy-cat-wanna-be bishops and aspiring televangelists picked up the phrase (coined it) and began to spread it on the internet and throughout the country like wildfire. Instead of arraying themselves in the fruits of the Spirit or putting on the full armor of God, they armed themselves with weapons of misinformation that perpetuates intolerance and preserves heterosexual privilege. The manifestation of their labor bred only suffering, self-hatred (in same-gender-loving people) and dwindling congregations with no power, influence, and wasted gifts. By ignoring the true message of the Gospel, they continuously drive people away from Christ rather than to Him. Additionally, they imprison themselves in hatred, anger and ignorance and miss out on God’s amazing message of unconditional and life-giving love. How sad for those teachers of hate (or should I say of the LAW). Moreover, how sad for all the victims of lies and intolerance whose lives have been devastated! To be honest with you, I did not realize how prevalent this type of spiritual malpractice was until I conducted a Google search on the subject and to my dismay, I discovered how widespread this ideology is in Christendom today. Even though it is said that same-gender-loving people are broken, current literature and most scholars in the field state that one’s sexual orientation is not a choice; that is, individuals do not choose to be homosexual or heterosexual. There is no scientific evidence that proves that dysfunctional parents, sexual abuse, adverse life events, or early childhood experiences dictate and determine sexual orientation. However, negative life experiences may influence them to a certain degree, but they cannot override them! Those assumptions are now understood to have been based on misinformation and prejudice. No major mental health professional or organization has sanctioned efforts to change sexual orientation, and virtually all of them have adopted policy statements cautioning the profession and the public about treatments that purport to change sexual orientation. After pondering the myth that one’s sexual orientation can be changed, I couldn’t help but think to myself, “I wonder how the heterosexual community would feel if someone told them that the reason they were black or heterosexual was because they were spiritually broken!” Trust me my brothers and sisters, if anyone dared make an outlandish statement like this, every African-American would be up in arms and ready to crucify the offenders! I realize that this comparison enrages many African-Americans who feel that the gay community has hijacked the Civil Rights movement to champion their cause and that I have no right to make such a comparison. The interesting thing to note however, is that the Bible makes it very clear that ALL OF HUMANITY, IN GOD’S EYES, ARE BROKEN and in need of a REDEEMER! I find it amazing that the heterosexual faith community foolishly believes that God somehow excludes them from the fold because of some special heterosexual privilege. My heart breaks year after year, as I witness my same-gender-loving brothers and sisters leaving the church by the thousands because of the spiritual blindness that handicaps our spiritual leaders and those who subscribe to their punitive legalistic doctrine. What is even worse is their refusal to acknowledge the fact that thousands of same-gender-loving people sit in their congregations and live in their communities. These are severe consequences that eventually hurt and in some way impact us all! This dogmatic denial and disfranchisement of same-gender-loving people without a doubt is a prime reason why, as previously mentioned, many congregations dwindle each week and multitudes turn away from Christ because Christians have misrepresented Him out of their own prejudice, misinterpretation of Scripture, and homophobia. When I consider the fact that 48% of African-American women between the ages of 14 and 49 could possibly be infected with the Herpes virus and that approximately 1.1 million adults and adolescents are living with HIV in the USA, including those not yet diagnosed, and those who have already progressed to AIDS (according to the CDC), I just want to scream! I just want to say to them, “Are you so blind that you cannot see that the very people you say you care about are being destroyed before your very eyes while you misappropriate your time and millions of your parishioner’s tithes and offerings to prevent same-gender-loving people from possessing equal rights. That very money you squander should be used to provide services that truly minister effectively to the real needs of people!” Now here is the most tragic and ironic result of this misguided and misdirected thinking: Hundreds, if not thousands of the church’s parishioner’s access HIV/AIDS services primarily from the gay community because they are unequipped to provide these same services. It is literally safe to say that the gay community has effectively and compassionately saved the lives of thousands of their members for many years. Yet Sunday after Sunday, pastors and priests mount their pulpits without reservation, and without good sense, and boldly declare before all that these same caregivers are all hell bound because they are gay; not knowing anything about their personal relationship with the Creator at all! Because same-gender loving people are considered “broken” by Christians and most of society, it is assumed that our relationships are also certainly broken in the eyes of God, and that we are the main cause for the deterioration of the family unit today, and are seen as the main culprit responsible for the high divorce rate among Christian heterosexual couples. But when you really consider what people are really saying when they make these kinds of unfounded claims, one cannot help but agree with Pastor Romell Weekly, a same-gender-loving man, who recently said, ?” These are just a few reasons as to why I was inspired to write my first book, Love Won’t Let Me Be Silent and now, They Say That I Am Broken! Like Love Won’t Let Me Be Silent, this new literary endeavor didn’t just come to be as a result of intuitive or Divine inspiration alone, but was also birthed in the hearts of men and women around me who sacrificed their time, shared their hopes and dreams for a better tomorrow, expressed their concerns, and contributed their resources out of love for me and for all of humanity. Terry Angel Mason, Global Author link: the thing about Rachel that's so aggravating, is that she is so obsessed with proving that she is just as important as men that it negates her credibility; and her one sided biased views are so narrow it's just obvious she doesn't see the big picture, I'm not sure how she thinks she's helping America except to make sure everyone's happy; "let's open our arms to the world and just let everyone come on in..we'll have a welcome cake ready for them" she's so obsessed with her women are equal and equal rights for everyone agenda that she can't realize that sometimes you need to just assume your role in life... How could she care about the future of America when she will never have children of her own; while most of us can see where America's headed these people that are so obsessed with being different can't see what's really at stake; this is selfish and ignorant, but I don't think too many people take her that serious as her words pretty much put her in her own place, people can sense intuitively what's really going on and this is a woman obsessed with proving she's just as good or better than a man when no one ever said she wasn't in the first place. Her own agenda is skewing the reality of the real issues at stake..

WINNER: LESLIE B83! Book: Best Kept Secret Author: Amy Hatvany It’s time for June’s Blast-O-Books and I want to kick it off with one of the best and most thought-provoking books I’ve read in a really long time. Best Kept Secret by Amy Hatvany was heart-breaking and uplifting all at the same time. At the center of this novel is Cadence, a single-mom who is trying the best that she can to get through her days raising a whirlwind of a happy little boy and working in freelance writing. When life becomes more and more difficult, and she starts suffering from insomnia, and work is not coming for her, a glass of wine at night helps her to sleep. That glass of wine becomes two and three, which then turns into a couple of bottles a night. Within a year, she is a full-blown alcoholic on the verge of losing the most important thing in her life: her son Charlie. I was drawn to this book for so many reasons. As a mom to three children very close in age, I know what it’s like to need something to calm the nerves when you’re at your wit’s end, when you think you might blow a gasket over spilled milk. I also discovered that two of my absolute favorite authors, Emily Giffin and Sarah Pekkanen have already read, loved and blurbed Best Kept Secret. And of course, there have been times in my own life that I have blogged about being unable to care for my own children because I’ve been too hung over. So this book hit home for me, and I’m very confident that Best Kept Secret will unearth feelings in every single woman who’s ever had a sip of wine, or felt like she’s not doing the best job at motherhood, or maybe has been unsure about everything in life she thought she had a handle on. Here is a Q&A I did with Amy, which was very kind of her to take the time seeing as her book debuts on Tuesday! Thanks Amy! Me: I'm soaring through Best Kept Secret, and if I didn't have 3 kids and a busy schedule with them, I would have cleared my days and finished it by now. I am in love with little Charlie and my heart breaks for Cadence, who has what I can see, was a slow-growing yet serious drinking problem. What I love about this book is that I think all mothers of young children can see a part of themselves in Cadence, whether they find themselves craving a glass of wine, a Xanax, or even needing to satiate their nerves with a pile of carbohydrates. What do you think? Amy: You are very sweet! I’m happy you’ve been drawn into the story, and I think you’re absolutely right. My hope in writing the book was that women might see the similarities they share with Cadence, rather than the differences, you know? Because I think it’s pretty easy and automatic to look at a mother with a drinking problem and say, “oh, I’d never do that; I’d never be her.” But I don’t know a mother out there who doesn’t look for some kind of escape from the constant emotional, mental, and physical demands of caring for children - toddlers, especially! Whether it’s in a glass of wine, a carton of ice cream, or online shopping - the indulgence is motivated by the same need - to soothe inner turmoil. I hoped that in creating a character who readers can relate to on many different levels, I might also create a better understanding and sense of empathy for how Cadence ends up with a drinking problem, and how much vicious judgment and stigma she had to fight against in order to get well. Me: What inspired Best Kept Secret? How much of the book was drawn from real life experience? Amy: While the plot and characters are fiction, I was inspired to write the book based on my own experiences of being a mother and an alcoholic. The emotional experiences Cadence has are much like what I went through - the guilt, the shame, the denial and disbelief that I couldn’t just figure out a way to stop drinking on my own. I’d had a lot of success in my life before that point, and I didn’t understand how in the world I couldn’t just put an end to a behavior that was so obviously destroying me. I am very much like Cadence in that I maintained a very happy, confident exterior for the rest of the world to see, but subconsciously, I struggled with feelings of loneliness and fear. I was such a convincing actress, though, I couldn’t articulate or maybe wasn’t even aware of those feelings. I had gone through a terrible divorce, and like Cadence, developed a bad case of insomnia. I never really drank much before that point, so that first glass of wine relaxed me and seemed like an easy solution to my sleeping issues. Of course, I didn’t understand how easily I’d build a physical tolerance to alcohol, and how dependent I’d become on the mental and emotional “escape” my nightly big-ass goblet of wine gave me from the pressure of single motherhood. Eventually, I, too, came to a point where I had a stare down with a bottle of pills, unsure if I really wanted to continue living, but the thought of my children growing up without me was what led me to finally ask for help. I’ve been sober almost six years, and I know it sounds strange to say, I feel like my spiral into drinking was one of the best things that could have happened for me. It woke me up. And it gave me the inspiration to write the book and let other women know they are not alone in this kind of struggle. Me: What was the hardest part about writing Best Kept Secret? Easiest? Amy: The hardest part was definitely revisiting the shame and guilt of what it is like to drink in front of a child. The thought of alcohol really does make me ill, now, so having to go back to the time when I was drinking every day and remembering what it felt like - the physical sensations, and then the emotional backlash that always immediately followed - was extremely difficult. I think the easiest part was writing the scenes with Cadence and Charlie, showing how they were connected, how much she adores him, and he loves and needs her. I have an incredible relationship with my children, and all I had to do was pull that feeling up, and those scenes just kind of appeared on the page. (Plus, my son actually did call them “blueberry stones” instead of “blueberry scones”!) My life with my children is filled with so many tender, wonderful moments, and getting to infuse Cadence and Charlie’s relationship with those kinds of emotions was my favorite aspect of writing the story. Me: You've written two previous books (The Language of Sisters and The Kind of Love That Saves You) under another name, Amy Yurk, and I can’t wait to read those two books! I also noticed you focus on really hard topics in your novels - mental retardation, rape, death, alcoholism, divorce, single parenthood. Yet it seems that there are hopeful messages within. Why do you think you tackle the tough stuff? Amy: Ha! Perhaps I’m a masochist? (Kidding!!) That’s a great question, actually. And it may sound kind of cheesy to say, but I really do believe that all the growth I’ve ever experienced in my life has been rooted in the tough things I’ve gone through, so that’s what interests me. How characters develop as a result of a significant event - especially how we, as women in our culture, are faced with so many challenges and what we do to rise up and face them every day. Anne Lamott says, “There’s no point in writing hopeless novels. We all know we’re going to die; what’s important is the kind of men and women we are in the face of this," and I think that’s why I write the books I do. How we tackle what life throws our way is what defines who we are - and exploring those kinds of journeys is the work that brings me joy; finding a way to see hope in the darkest of circumstances is such a powerful quality for characters to discover within themselves. I also think that writing about the tough stuff helps readers (and me!) feel maybe a little less alone in whatever we struggle with. To read something and feel, “Oh, I’m not the only person to ever have those thoughts/feelings,” brings about a sense of connection that I cherish when I read other authors’ works. And that’s the fundamental reason I write - to connect. Me: When you have time to read, who are your favorite authors to read? Amy: Oh, there are too many to list! But I never miss anything by Jennifer Weiner, Emily Giffin, or Elizabeth Berg. I also love Joyce Maynard, Elizabeth Strout, T. Greenwood, Sarah Pekkanen…the list goes on and on! I read mostly commercial and literary women’s fiction, though Laura Hillenbrand’s UNBROKEN was the last non-fiction piece I dove into. She is a phenomenal woman, and I hugely admire her work. Me: You've got two more books coming -- what are they about? Amy: Yes! OUTSIDE THE LINES is due out in February, 2012, and tells the story of a woman searching for her homeless and mentally ill father, whom she has been estranged from for twenty years. It’s told in alternating viewpoints of both the daughter and father, past and present, which was a departure for me as a writer and I am very pleased with how it turned out. The one I’m currently working on is as yet unnamed. It explores what happens when a woman is suddenly and unexpectedly thrust into the role of full-time mother and is forced to confront the complicated reasons behind her previously hard-fast decision to remain childless. Me: Thanks Amy for sharing your amazing novel and your life with us! And I can’t wait to read your next novels! To enter to win Best Kept Secret, share one of your best kept secrets – it can be funny – you don’t have to make it serious in order for you to enter to win the book! One of my best kept secrets is that when my husband is out of town, I will keep the house a total mess until like an hour before he is supposed to be home, then we all rush around to whip the house into shape. I’m like the mom who is really the babysitter – let the kids stay up late, we eat junk food, watch bad TV, go out for ice cream and pizza all of the time! Then when Dad gets home from being out of town, it’s time to be the real mom again! What’s your best kept secret?! PeaCe uP! 109 comments: O you are so sneaky, getting this posted while I was sleeping; I've been watching & waiting for your first Blast O-Book interview!!! Secret? Hmmmm.... Probably how badly my husband treated me. I cared for him while he was dying and that in itself isolated me from nearly everyone because I had no *time*, but because of medication and dementia he was often abusive and cruel, and I was embarrassed and ashamed to let my family know this. (Yeah, it will go into my book, and I totally understand what Amy said about personal growth being rooted in what one has gone through.) My best kept secret is that I want to move out of Chicago. The weather here is terrible. I don't tell anyone that I want to move somewhere else because this is where my entire family lives. We will never move away from everyone. -Donna W. My best kept secret is the hidden chocolate I have that my son or husband don't know about :) I absolutely love your best kept secret! What a fun mom you are! My best kept secret is I failed my last statistics class in graduate school and did not graduate on time. I found out less than 24 hours from graduation so I didn't tell many people that I didn't graduate. BUT last Friday I actually did finish it. So all's well that ends well :) I think it's just some of my frustrations as a mother. I stay at home, but don't always love it (or even want to). I love my kids, but some days the thought of being with them makes me insane. Ally N Well if I told you it wouldn't be my best kept secret, now would it? ;) How about I just tell you a secret? I secretly hate when other women tell me how they couldn't be a sahm 'cause they crave the social to much...drives me nuts. As if I don't. I crave it too, I'll talk to anyone...stranger who comes knocking on my door beware I will talk to you all day if you let me! lol. I'm so sick of barney, dora, elmo--I hate the songs in my head! My husband gets home and wants to talk about his day and I sit and think how wonderful it would be to talk to real grown-ups when ever you wanted. I almost never have Laura time and I miss her, oh how I miss Laura. So that is one of my secrets. I don't want to hear how people can't do it. I'm very interested in this book, because I'm not a drinker but I'm an eater. I have put my little kids in the car (I have 4 total ranging 20, 14, 4, 2) and cracked open a diet coke and a chocolate bar thinking take me away for just a few mins take the edge off the stress I'm feeling having just finished grocery shopping with screaming kids. And when mine are good and some other women is struggling with a screaming kid I want to hug her and say it's ok your not along. My best kept secret? Hm... Everyone in my family has been telling me for years I need to write a book or keep a blog. While I haven't written a book yet, I have been keeping a blog for two months and no one in my family knows about it. My best kept secret - when I get stressed out and overwehlmed, I CRY. I go into a room, lock the door and all out SOB. Maybe happens once a year or once every other year, but it's therapeutic for me and I feel a ton better afterwards. This book sounds like a great read - thanks so much for doing these contests, it's really fun to learn about all of the great books out there :) This book really speaks to me ~ I've been through those days and through the mercy of God and self-control can enjoy a drink in moderation; but I was probably teetering on the brink there for a while when I got divorced and was left with 3 young kids. My BKS would probably be that when my husband is out of town, like you MM, we have movie marathons, sleep overs, eat ice cream before dinner and in general PARTY!! Kids and I love it and we always right the ship just before he walks in the door. :) Thanks MM!! My best kept secret is that I really hate my best friend's fiance. He is a worthless drunk and she can do so much better. I didn't say anything when she got engaged because I thought for sure it wasn't going to last. But now she is having his baby and it is too late for me to say anything. I fear she is ruining her life :( My best kept secret? It would be that I'm not the super easy going, relaxed mom that everyone thinks I am-my kids know I'm a yeller, & I do it way more than I should. I HAVE had best kept secrets...until I tell someone. I guess my WORST kept secret is that I have a hard time keeping (my own) secrets. My best kept secret? I'd kind of like to move to Ireland.... but shh don't tell my mom. I don't wash my hair every day. But I do shave my legs! With this crappy economy we are on a VERY tight budget. We take our lunches to work...no eating out. But on occasion I will stop at a fast food chain for the dollar menu. Nicole My BKS would probably have to be that my husband is very anti letting our son sleep in our bed. However, anytime he works late at work, I'll bring our son to bed with me...my husband will move him back to his bed and in the morning say, "Did you know Avery came into our room last night?"! :) kndyer My best kept secret? That's just for me...another secret is that I sneak junk food (fast food, candy, etc.) when my boyfriend's not around and then I only make healthy food at home. :) My best kept secret is that I can't stand my sister in law! She was lingering on the fringe of my brother's friends forever- he dated and was in love with HER best friend. After a few serious and damaging heartbreaks, there she was again. I truly feel my brother settled thinking he wouldn't find anyone. Wow, that felt good to share- I could never say anything to my family. JenFee 9476 My secret is that I have a blog. Brn2shop9 at gmail dot com Hope this isn't too late.... My best kept secret is that I pretty bad a spelling, however everyone I know thinks I'm great at it... Spell-check! It is till such a well kept secret I wo't say it here! my BKS is that i live with my boyfriend who is my company's biggest client and no one at work knows that we're together. we've been a couple for nearly 4 years, we bought our house two years ago this month and all of this has been done under the radar! I can't tell you... that's why it's a secret! haha! I really would have to think hard about this one. The best I can come up with is wanting out of my current job and into a job I love. I am thankful for my job, its not bad, its just not what I would LOVE to be doing. Great interview!! cozyreadertiff Well love the new mantra! It is words to live by really! ok my best kept secret is that I'd really love to go back to school to get my RN. Whenever any one asks I act like it isn't a big deal and not a real priority but deep down I'd really love to do it! And I plan to start when my daughter goes to kindergarten! :) My best kept secret...that I read books out of the kid section at the library. It's not the biggest secret, but it's pretty good. AND.... Our county library is going to start charging annual fees, so our lame city library will have to do this summer. My best kept secret is a diary/journal that is well hidden from eyes and I write whatever I feel in it. Lyrics,random thoughts etc. It helps to get out those emotions once in a while. Margaret (singitm) singitm@hotmail.com My bid is that when my hubby is out of town I take my self on dates. Whether it's go out shopping or make my self a fabulous dinner, I do it for me. Oh yeah, and I want to open a bakery! My best kept secret is that every Saturday when my husband is spending the day with his friends in stead of doing something around the house or spending with me (which I used to let bother me) I now look forward to as a time to forget housework and all but basic needs for me and the kids. He thinks it is still an issue with me, but I figure if he is going to goof off for one whole day per week then I deserve the same time off. When you are a stay at home mom you can't leave the work and stress at the office it's always there. I realized that it's ok to let things go for a day and as long as the kids are fed and safe then the day is good. The rest of the day is mine to decompress. sounds like an amazing book! count me in! my bks...my husband and i keep a list of all the crazy things we find funny. we've been doing this ever since we started dating and haven't stopped. i give him a printout of the list on our wedding anniversary and we look back and laugh at all our inside jokes. Hmm, this one is hard. but I'm sure everybody does it...like sneak ice cream behind my daughter's back because I don't want to have any or even from my friends and co-workers because I'm suppose to be on a diet. This was actually the secret I kept for the longest time. I finally told my brother and parents a few years back...When we were younger, my brother had a BB gun and we would go outside to play with it. One day we were outside with one of my brother's friends and I thought I would see if I could hit the neighbor's van. I never heard the BB's hit so I kept shooting. Come to find out, I had been shooting the windshield. My brother in his friend got in trouble for it and had to work all summer to pay for a new windshield. Amy Nichole G My best kept secret...or at least I thought it was until people started calling me on it is that I have this inner 16 year old inside me that wants to still watch tween movies and tv shows even at 32! LOL! I have a deeeeeeep love for Reese pb cups. Each Sunday morning I get Up before my husband and kids and enjoy one with a cup of tea....in the quiet morning hours. My BKS... I hate the small town my husband and I live in. It's his dream to live here and I secretly fear he will never want to move! my best kept secret, which i guess only about 2 people know is that i am totally always afraid of losing my job. always. It would be that I'm not the super mom that my mother thinks I am. My little one knows, but she loves me too peices anyway! I expect way too much from a 3 year old... plus I am yeller when she won't listen, & I do it way more than I should. xx(fingers crossed) ~Nattygirrl Don't tell anyone, but sometimes I cry on the way into work. My daughter has a heart condition & I'm afraid one day I'll get that horrifying phone call and not make it home in time. My best kept secret is similar to your example. First, I do that too, when my husband is gone I'm a slob until he gets home (except we don't have children so I don't have any accomplices like you). But my actual secret is that when my husband is out of town I let our dogs sleep in the bed with me. My husband absolutely refuses to let them sleep with us BUT when the cat's away, the mice will play... Thanks for doing another book giveaway, maybe I'll win one this time! Kristi Hooke I am afraid of finding a job. There, I said it. I am dying to teach my own classroom again but after being pink slipped so many times I am afraid that I am one of those horrible teachers that people talk about. I haven't told anyone that while I apply for everything I am terrified that I am just no good. Carly Haynes my best kept secret...I'm really a man! ;) My secret is that I have to sleep with a pillow on my side because I have a fear of having my back exposed when I sleep. Too scared of getting stabbed or something. If my husband is out of town then I have to sleep with two pillows to block both sides. It makes no sense in my logical mind, but I need those pillows! Melissa Rem My best kept secret is that I LOVE cheesey movies! I don't think anyone knows though...except you, now! My best kept secret is that I do the happy dance when there is no one home but me. I enjoy a night here and there where there is no commotion, just quiet and I probably look a lot like Elaine dancing on Seinfeld. mryward(at)yahoo(dot)com My secret is that I am lonely. I am very outgoing on the outside, but not so much on the inside. I am usually so busy with my kids that the neighbors/friends never invite me to the pool, girls night out, etc. and then my feelings get hurt. I am getting divorced and my boys will be gone before too many more years, and I fear I will be all alone. LeslieCG Best Kept Secret? hmmmm, it is so secret, I forgot. Guess I should have told someone so they could help me remember. =) Super excited for the June Blast-O-Books! Thanks!! I'd have to say how much time I waste on the internet durring the day. My best kept secret from people in real life is how much not having a baby kills me every day. I never told any of my family when I had either of my miscarriages. I feel that things like that need to be kept private, which then makes it worse for me to go it alone. qweska8402 I'm still in love with my old boyfriend! My close friends know this but I pretend that I don't care about him anymore. Sigh. Dani Patarazzi My best kept secret is my irrational fear of the dark. And subsequently, the "boogie man" under my bed. my bks is that i will be 30 in november...and i have never had sex. so many of my good friends don't even know that about me. My best kept secret as of lately is that I am nervous that we are having a boy (due in 6 weeks and we don't know what we are having). Don't get me wrong, I'm over the moon to be pregnant with our second (since it took a long time to get to this point), but I don't know how to raise a boy (if we have a boy). Our oldest is a girl and is all girlie and I have 5 years worth of girl stuff. Having a boy scares me...but then again so does have a another girl that is full of drama. I'm hoping these are normal feelings. ha! :) My best kept secret is that I can drink most people under the table :) Hey - my best kept "secret" is the Green Tea flavored Kit Kats that one can buy at the Japanese Supermarket - which makes me think it is more "healthful" than the regular milk chocolate ones (but probably not, in reality) leonelescota AT gmail DOT com My best kept secret is how badly I've wanted to have another baby but know my husband really doesn't want another one. My bks is that I desperately want to have a child but i pretend to be okay with the fact that it will probably never happen because of my infertility. These comments are all so fabulous! I had the best time doing this interview for Stephanie! And let's see, it wouldn't be fair if I didn't leave a secret, too... Okay, are you ready? I am so nervous about this book release that even though I have been "off" sugar for over 9 months, I hit Dairy Queen on Friday for a Brownie Batter Blizzard and INHALED IT in about ten seconds flat. Totally worth it, and totally made me feel better. Perhaps I need a carbohydrate intervention, now? :) Thank you all for the interest, and please let me know your thoughts about the book! My best kept secret is Self-Tanner night. My husband plays basketball on Thursday nights, religiously. Afterward he goes out with the guys and doesn't come home until long after I'm in bed. This is the night I slather myself head-to-toe in stinky self tanner and then put on my grubby, black pajamas (that stuff gets EVERYWHERE). It is too streaky and freaky looking to use when he's around--we've been married a loooooong time but the guy doesn't deserve to have to look at THAT! He's never noticed or mentioned it (and since I only do it once a week it's not like I'm ridiculously George Hamilton-tan or anything). I realize this isn't exactly the axe-murder sort of skeleton in my closet, but I find it hilarious. My secret is the same as a few others. I'm a sahm and not really the best at it. I try but I too am a yeller and not proud. One of my best kept secrets is that I am HORRIBLE with doing laundry! When my husband does it he separates the lights, darks, delicates, etc. and makes sure not to cram too much in one load. He also carefully measures out the detergent, color safe bleach, etc. Me, I reach deep into the laundry baskets and shove whatever I grab into the washer...as much as will fit. Before the clothes go in I just pour some of this, some of that in to clean :). My husband caught me doing this not that long ago and acted horrified...I told him if he didn't like how I did it he could do it himself :). candc320@gmail.com my best kept secret is that I spilled a LOT of water on my laptop keyboard. My husband thought that it just started making this police-siren sound when it starts and deciding not to let me type "1" on the right side numbers. He blames Facebook, which he thinks causes viruses, but hasn't made the connection that the remote broke on the very same day... I guess my best kept secret is that i'm not okay with being single as i let everyone else think. While i'm enjoying my me time, i get lonely from time to time and am jealous as all my friends are married and having kids. my secret is that i really want to be a stay at home mom when i have kids someday..and i want it to be soon! My best kept secret is that I do not like one of my co-workers! I am cordial with her but that is about it. I do not engage her in casual conversation like I do the rest of my co-workers. This woman always has to involve herself in everything which is very annoying. She also always has to make a comment, regardless of the fact that she does not know what we are talking about or that she is wrong! My best kept secret is that I LOVE when my hubby goes out of town for business!! I don't have to worry with making dinner every night..the kids and I eat out the entire time! Best kept secret... I listen to books on tape while I'm working... and might not answer the phone because the book got to a good part. - Mavericks Fan <3 Dirk 41 my best kept secret is I AM A NOSEY WOMAN!!!!!! kyfaithw at aol dot com This book sounds great! I'm definitely going to add it to my list. My best kept secret? Hmmm... I guess it would be just how antisocial I really am. I would much rather sit at home on the couch with my husband watching old Scrubs reruns than go out with a group of people. I really get overwhelmed around lots of people, even friends. Its a secret. And best kept. This looks like a great book. My best kept secret is that I always look at the homes for sale, even though we are not planning to move.MargieT My best kept secret is that I'm afraid that even though I know all the right things to do, I am really a horrible teacher. I'm afraid that the other teachers in my grade and subject are doing a much better job and my students aren't learning or retaining as much. I hide my favorite candy up on a shelf in the back of my closet. Sometimes I just don't like to share! Hi Manic...thanks so much for offering up this book. I have a very close friend dealing with this exact issue right now. She even tried rehab to no avail. I am so sad for her...she desperately wants to quit drinking! Anyway, I guess a secret about me would be how badly I want to go back to school and get a degree. At 41yo this is TERRIFYING! Not sure if I'll ever do it...I keep finding reasons not to. :) Take Care MM!! Nan My best kept secret is that even though I complain about being single and not being able to find Mr. Right - I secretly like being able to do whatever I want, whenever I want without checking in with anyone. I also love having the whole bed to myself! Not that I want to be single forever, but for now it's kind of nice! :) I think at least once every day about ditching my family and running away. I never would because I love them, but it's exhausting to be a full time employee, mother, wife, cook, maid, chauffer, personal shopper, etc. I never have me time or get to do or buy something for myself. Kristi Marie My best kept secret is that I spend way too much time on my computer. I use the excuse that I am "working", but half the time I am on facebook or reading tabloid gossip. It's one of the reasons I won't get an IPhone or Blackberry...I'm afraid I'll never get offline! Probably that I'm disappointed almost every day. Sad, but true. I really have to work to be happy. :( ktmixon315 I work in a profession where you are expected to be pleasant, happy and helpful to the random people who come in every day, and I'm always told ow pleadant, happy, and helpful I am. My secret is that I am not a people person and that I feel like slapping most of the people I help because their problems are trivial. My best kept secret is that I sneak off and eat candy when my kids aren't paying attention. (I also do the bad babysitter thing when my husband is out of town - glad I'm not the only one!) My BSK is going to remain a secret from all but the other two people involved (keep your minds out of the gutters) but I am dying to share it with someone! Instead, I'll share that even though I'm a quiet person, I'm totally a yeller with my kids, although my neighbors probably know that. :) Terri M. My best kept secret??? Unfortunately, I don't have any because I have what my husband calls "no filter". He wishes I had secrets!! -tmd636 My Best Kept Secret is I love to sneak away and grab a quick nap before the kids get home from school. Of course, I am up before they walk through the door. Now that school is out things will be different!! lol My best kept secret is that I love to read YA ... even though I am in my 30s!! My best kept secret... The reason I rarely drink alcohol is because I grew up as the child of an alcoholic parent. I would love to read this book! My best kept secret is that I have absolutely no desire to have kids. I like kids, I have nieces and nephews that I adore, and love my friends kids, but, under no circumstances do I want any of my own. My husband and I are totally selfish; we like our freedom and the ability to do what we want when we want to. I think some people we meet think we don't have any (we've been married for 10 years) because of reproductive issues. No, we don't have any because we don't want any. It's a great thing if that's what you want, but, we don't. My freedom and ability to sleep far outweighs any desire to have children. I had doubts right before my wedding but wasn't strong enough to call it off or delay it. We have been married almost 38 years so I guess it worked out okay. My best kept secret is that I call the girl who considers me her Best Friend Ever my shopping and eating friend. No where near my BFF. My best kept secret is that I have pawned some jewelry my husband has bought me over the years when we were low on cash. He just thinks I never wear it anymore, that I am more in to "costume jewelry" now. My best kept secret is my ever growing book collection. Lol. My hubby is clueless as to really how large my collection is. Lol...It is an addiction but a GOOD one. ;) My best kept secret is that I read books like you post here at work, haha. It's bad but I love chic lit books so much. I hide my book under my desk and look at it every so often. Thanks! -Jessica BKS? Well, I don't keep secrets very often. That way I don't have to remember what I said...everyone else does! Heh! Maybe what I haven't told a friend of mine is that I really don't like her husband. I don't think he likes me either so guess it makes us even? And the truth is that I don't even care to make nice with him. It means I don't spend much time with her anymore, which is kind of sad. My best kept secret is that I get lonely sometimes because I live far from my family but I play it off so most people think it doesn't bother me that much. my best kept secret will remain just that...a SECRET That I'm 38 and haven't figured out what I want to do with my life or what I'm good at. I seem to fake things pretty well. BKS: sometimes I wish I *had* changed my major and become a teacher. but the economy is so bad and teachers are being laid off...I guess things worked out for the best. Crystal717 My best kept secret is that I can't wait until my oldest moves into her own apartment and starts her "adult" life in a few days. I love her, but I really need her to be independent. Hmmm.... I stress shop. It's bad! On the upside I have nice jewelry. On the downside I have some bills I wish would go away. I don't think I have a best kept secret...I'm an open book (aka I share TMI!) Not to copy your secret, but similarly, every time my husband travels (which is often), the kids and I always pick one night to forfeit our typically healthy dinners and have big plates of chipped beef gravy and biscuits instead. Colbey J My best kept secret is that I do not shave my legs from october til march. I have not very hairy legs and usualyl do not need to shave for that long but no one knows that. I talk about eating healthier, but I sneak off and buy junk food when I am having a bad day. Patticole I eat so much sugar when my husband is out of town. My best kept secret is......best kept secret! SPepper22 Probably my journal that i've had for 5 years. I only write in it when I'm really stressed and at my breaking point. I should write in it more often to get frustration out but I can never find the time. holly wohl Your interview was GREAT MaNiC! I can't wait to read this book! Thank you so much!... I wish I had some secrets to share... thinking thinking thinking - BUT I got nothing! Sorry! Christine Katie M in N-ville My best kept secret is that I am a magazine hoarder. I get so many magazines every month that it sometimes will take me a year to read them. I bring them into work so that my husband cannot see how many I get and read them on my breaks. That I want another baby. :) But we made that decision permanent (husband had the Big V), so if I love my marriage, and I do, I will keep this secret, and be happy with my wonderful sons. My best kept secret is that I'm terrified of being alone and never finding someone to share my life with... NicoleMG from CT My biggest secret is that I kissed a girl when I was younger. I know this is more accepted now, but I was in my early teens and both of us were in a really strict religion. Oops! lol I want to read this book and have been racking my brain for days about my best kept secret. I can't think of a thing. Pitiful! Kayo THANK YOU FOR COMMENTING. A WINNER HAS BEEN CHOSEN! NO MORE COMMENTS WILL QUALIFY AFTER THIS COMMENT.

. Just reading Jimbo Wales' comment on the home page of the Search Wikia project which states that "search is broken" and then goes on to say: Why is it broken? It is broken for the same reason that proprietary software is always broken: lack of freedom, lack of community, lack of accountability, lack of transparency. Here, we will change all that. Why is it broken? It is broken for the same reason that proprietary software is always broken: lack of freedom, lack of community, lack of accountability, lack of transparency. Here, we will change all that. We're going to see a lot more of this in the coming years where people flock to non-proprietary, collaborative systems (think Wikipedia, Linux, Flickr). If you don't know a lot about the economics of mass collaboration I'd really encourage you to grab a copy of this book: I purchased the CD audio version and have listened to is a few times in the past couple of weeks - it really has my mind stirring with new ideas. posted on 6/30/2007 7:53:18 PM ( 0 Comments ) This is good to see... Brad Abrams : Visual Studio in Second Life Brad Abrams : Visual Studio in Second Life I wonder how long it will be before Readify has an apartment in there? See you in there! posted on 6/29/2007 10:15:03 PM ( 0 Comments ) There on 6/29/2007 2:37:49 PM ( 1 Comments ) An interesting read: Dare Obasanjo aka Carnage4Life - RE: Life at Google - The Microsoftie Perspective Dare Obasanjo aka Carnage4Life - RE: Life at Google - The Microsoftie Perspective Make sure that you follow the link from there through to the full phatbits article. Something that each of us may be confronted with at some stage I guess. posted on 6/29/2007 2:22:18 PM ( 0 Comments ) Quite often I'll hear Readify referred to as a virtual company. The 'virtual' tag is applied to us by both internal as well as external observers - but what does it actually mean? And is it an accurate tag to apply to us? To me the term 'virtual' means "not real" or "almost real" - certainly not something that I equate with our company. After all, it was only last week that I sat down for a meal with a bunch of our guys at Darling Harbor in Sydney. Heck, it even set me back 70 bucks... what could be more real than that? To me "virtual" is more of a SecondLife type of experience. Actually I believe that as mechanisms such as Ideagoras and Crowdsourcing start to play a bigger part in how we share knowledge that will start to see true "virtual" organizations start to take shape - maybe virtual organizations that look nothing like organizations of today but which look more like virtual swarms that exist to solve important problems and then disassemble and vaporize just as soon as they formed. But this is not anywhere near where we are at today. I prefer to think of Readify from the viewpoint that we are highly distributed and decentralized. In this sense we are more like a "remote" (although I prefer the term "distant") company. Another, probably better term is that we are a highly mobile organization. You see, to me, "mobility" means that we are able to work from anywhere. This is closer to my real working model where I work from wherever I am at any given point in time. The slight (although significant) difference from "remote/distant" is that the latter implies that you are simply working offsite. A minor differentiation but one which is important when you live and work how I do each day! Actually, according to this article, many more of us are at least migrating away from our ties to working from a central location. If the statistics quoted in that article are correct, 14% of the US workforce currently works "from home" at least 2 days per week. This is up from 11% in 2004 and is expected to rise to 17% within 2 years. Certainly worth considering in terms of the opportunities that will arise from this new growth. The trick with a mobile organization is having the right tools to enable key scenarios - such as collaboration as well as communication at a human level. This article touches on some aspects of these key points. At Readify we're experiencing all of these exciting new developments in our daily lives and it's an exciting place to be. Moving forward I can see further evolution in the mobility model. Increased mobility - and hence less dependence on location - will lead to us having: posted on 6/27/2007 9:52:27 PM ( 1 Comments ) Phil writes about the fact that Microsoft appears to be getting more behind open source development: Christmas For .NET Open Source Came Early This Year Christmas For .NET Open Source Came Early This Year This is going to be really interesting to watch. Is this the beginning of Microsoft opening up? posted on 6/27/2007 8:44:09 PM ( 0 Comments ) At home I have this habit where, whenever I purchase a new article of clothing, I turf out an equivalent number of old items. Buy a new shirt - turf an old one. In with new socks, out with some old ones. New hanky in - old hanky out. You get the picture. The idea is to drive towards a wardrobe of clothes that always represent a current set based on what I prefer to wear. It's like survival of the fittest where each article of clothing has to compete to remain in the fold - although old jocks can only survive for so long . I've started to actively do the same with my RSS subscriptions. I use the trigger of new subscriptions as a point of evaluation for items in my current subscription list. I don't unsubscribed from feeds on a pure 1-1 basis. What I do is to look at the number of items that the new feed will add to my reader each week and look to unsubscribe from a number of feeds that is representative of that number of individual reading items. This helps to ensure that the signal to noise ratio is always being fine tuned on a proper comparative basis. Over the past 6 months I've started tuning in much more to feeds that focus on the theory knowledge management and less on individual technologies and implementation related blogs. As an example I've added blogs such as: At the same time my interest in low level details about implementation has waned somewhat. In recent times, to match the intake from the blogs that I've listed above I've unsubscribed to some really excellent blogs about CRM, SharePoint, and design patterns: It's not that these blogs are not a good read - they've served me extremely well in the past. It's just that, beyond a certain point, reading stuff can interfere with doing stuff. So hence the need for constant pruning and vigilance in maintaining the right level of signal to noise. By the same token, there's a couple of blogs that I've kept - mostly because they are friends - but who seldom update me with their articles these days: Although they tend to clutter my reader I've kept a hold of them in the hope that they may one day again inspire me with their tales from the trenches posted on 6/27/2007 1:35:51 PM ( 1 Comments ) I was having lunch with a colleague today and we were talking about the economics of mass collaboration. I was talking about how knowledge is the new commodity that is driving the phenomenon of mass collaboration. My colleague mentioned that this all sounded very socialistic. We continued to bash that thought around and I knew where he was getting at... he was looking for the weakness in this model (he's very good at doing that ). The questions were taking a familiar line, basically - what is the motivation for participation? Why do people give up their spare time to contribute on these community collaborations? And can we be sure that the motivations will always be there? Then he asked a question from a viewpoint that I hadn't considered before: Isn't it unfair on the people who are investing their time and knowledge that there are leeches who take without putting knowledge into the ecosystem? This is a great question and one that I'm not sure that I have a great answer for straight off the bat. I'll gladly listen to the thoughts of others on this question. I guess that the real question might be... do you think that this phenomenon is nothing more than an interesting social experiment and that it will last for as long as it can capture the imagination of its participants? Or do you think that all of this new found time and exchange of intangible goods is actually coming from a true and long-lasting source of economic activity? posted on 6/26/2007 5:00:58 PM ( 4 Comments ) Here's an interesting article by Danah Boyd which talks about the growth of these 2 social networking sites and the battle that is currently raging between them to gain an ascendency: Viewing American class divisions through Facebook and MySpace Viewing American class divisions through Facebook and MySpace Some of the really important points that Danah raises are over whether these sites represent different classes of American youth. Could it be true that MySpace is the blue collar portal and that Facebook is for the white collar mob? Interesting discussion. Here's a snippet taken from the article to give you a taste for on 6/26/2007 7:02:07 AM ( 0 Comments ) I hadn't seen this before: Current TV // The TV Network Created By The People Who Watch It Current TV // The TV Network Created By The People Who Watch It It's a global, public TV network where you can filter and vote for content. This is surely the future of TV where we can choose our own content and have much more of a say in how content is personalized for us but also with enough emergent behavior to influence what other people watch by voting for the most popular content. posted on 6/25/2007 8:45:06 PM ( 0 Comments ) Here's a link to an on-demand copy of the Enterprise 2.0 debate between Andrew McAfee (he is credited with coining the term Enterprise 2.0) and Tom Davenport (he doesn't think we need the term) which took place at the recent Enterprise 2.0 conference in Boston: Enterprise 2.0 Live Debate Enterprise 2.0 Live Debate The debate is useful for uncovering some of the major topics behind Enterprise 2.0 including: There's a lot of good stuff in there about emergent technology and enlightened leadership. The beauty of this piece is that it looks at the topic from both sides of the argument. posted on 6/25/2007 6:02:13 PM ( 0 Comments ) A while ago I mentioned the new themes that have been added to Google Portal and I thought that I'd write a quick note to talk what one of my standard days looks like these days... In the morning I love to get up early and have a coffee with Paul Stovell while I read the paper and check my emails... In the Dev Centre there's plenty of time in the morning for goofing around. Often Paul and I shoot water cannons at one another before we get stuck into our work... ... or practice a bit of karate... ... on other mornings it's nice to just kick back with a nice, gentleman-like game of badminton... ... the weather in Adelaide has been great so we tend to grab our sandwiches and head outside for lunch... In the afternoon's Paul's favorite activity is water-sliding... ... but I much prefer a quiet game of croquet (Stovell never beats me at this )... ... anyway, when the day is done it's time to start preparing for the night. It's been a bit cold at night this winter so we generally prepare a bit of a fire... ... which, of course leads to marshmallows and Stovell's endless stories about his data binding feats! .... then it's time to Sleep... ... and Dream - although I've been having some weird one's lately... It's a busy life posted on 6/20/2007 8:32:56 PM ( 0 Comments ) Leadership is the buzzword of today and as a member of the management team at Readify, I can confirm that it's been one of our most discussed topics of the past year. We've constantly looked for ways to both reward leadership behaviors and to provide better incentives for people to exhibit them. The pursuit of leadership is not only limited to management. This year I've been given the role of managing our Professional Development (PD) program at Readify and I've already observed that it's a hot topic among the rest of our staff too. People everywhere are demanding better leadership and at the same time they want to become better leaders themselves. This has led me to try and learn more about leadership in the hope that I might better understand the role of PD in satisfying people's hunger for leadership. Overall I suspect that the emphasis on leadership is somewhat misleading. All the talk of leadership has served to distort people's own understanding of what they are truly after. I suspect that what people really want is to achieve a sense of empowerment as well as an ability to more fully realize their own true potential. Because of this, my emphasis for the PD program so far has been to work with people to understand their goals and what motivates them. By focusing on goals it becomes easier to tailor a program of activities that leads to the ultimate goal - to allow a person to self-actualize goals and visualize growth in their own capabilities. posted on 6/19/2007 7:34:53 AM ( 0 Comments ) Recently I managed to awaken myself to what I had previously overlooked about Web 2.0. As much as respectable magazines such as Time had tried to remind me, I'd managed to drift off into this state of Ajax'y unconsciousness. And so it was as I was using Twitter to monitor the activity of my social network when I totally jumped the shark and entered the following text into my Twitter account: My last entry on Twitter My last entry on Twitter All that 1337 speak and talk of cats drove me to this moment of insanity and it happened. I just typed those words, closed my browser, and moved on. And in that single moment I proved it... I had missed the whole point of Web 2.0 applications like Twitter - which is that they are "Me" focused! To remove the noise I simply adjust the channels that I'm subscribed to and voila, problem solved. So Web 2.0 == You. Don't like something remove it; find something new of interest, add it; then rearrange the order of things until the information fits you. Then take that information and mash-it up with something else to turn it into a higher level of information and you start the process of turning raw information into knowledge. When you think about knowledge and its value you immediately start thinking about "the enterprise" - and hence the concept of Enterprise 2.0 has come to the surface quite a bit in recent times. Mind you there's also Commerce 2.0, B2B 2.0, Security 2.0, IT Manager 2.0, and a whole raft of other * 2.0 idioms. While I haven't explored the entire * 2.0 family my attention of late is very much centered around the concept of Enterprise 2.0 and its value to businesses. Currently there are many ideas and theories washing around in my brain about the kinds of applications and mash-ups we need to create "Me" centered applications within the enterprise. The prospects are very exciting indeed! Imagine the value to business around having an Enterprise 2.0 knowledge framework that was so powerful that employees dared not leave it for the fear that they would lose access to valuable knowledge. posted on 6/16/2007 1:16:55 PM ( 0 Comments ) I've written about Shared Items on Google Reader before but wanted to re-post because they are so cool and I wonder how many people are making use of that feature. This has drifted back to my attention after yesterday, having had a chat about them with Warren Schaefer at Melbourne airport who agrees about their coolness. How it works is that as I'm reading items within Reader, there is a "Share" button at the bottom of each item: As I come across articles that I think are of exceptional value I click on that button and the item is then available to be shared. By sharing the item it is available via the following link which also exposes itself as an RSS feed: There is also a nice web part that they make available so that I can present a view of my shared items on my blog: I'm firmly of the opinion that each of us must read some incredible articles each day and without a sharing experience such as this, then this knowledge sharing opportunity is either lost or just poorly translated as time passes waiting for me to blog about it. Clicking on a share button means that the "cream of the crop" is always shared though and so the things that I read that are valuable are available as a filtered list for people to view. If you are interested in * 2.0 (Web, Enterprise, etc) discussions, team based development, .NET, then I'd highly encourage you to subscribe to my shared items feed because that's where you will find the best knowledge that I see each day about those topics. And if you have a Shared Items link please add it as a comment to this post so that I can subscribe to yours - in your comment please let me know what content categories your shared items are likely to contain posted on 6/16/2007 9:57:21 AM ( 1 Comments ) Yesterday I wrote an article which questions whether or not the daily Scrum meetings stifle creativity. Thankfully Richard added a comment which pointed me to an article by Martin Fowler about the Patterns of Daily Stand-up Meetings. Having been on a couple of highly functional teams in the past I can relate to much of what Martin is saying but some of it was a revelation to me and, although it's a rather lengthy article, I'd highly recommend downloading it and reading it over a coffee in an appropriately quiet place. Reading the article actually made me wonder about the suitability of Scrum daily meetings to the Dev Centre. After all, the Scrum daily meetings are very much targeted at teams who are working on the same project whereas the Dev Centre is often a very different world. For one, the teams in the Dev Centre tend to be highly disrupted; people tend to come and go all the time. You might be working on a project in the Dev Centre today but in 2 weeks time you may not be there at all. Another significant difference is that it's actually quite common to have either very small teams or, even more commonly, just an individual developer working alone. How do you have a Scrum with just 1 regular developer? It's a highly disruptive environment and not one that I'm certain is well addressed by the "manifesto" laid out in Martin's article - particularly when you lay "remote/virtual" over the top. I actually wonder whether the model that I'm working with is more of the norm - let's call it the "long tail" - as opposed to the large to mid-sized teams that Martin's article (and the daily Scrum meeting itself) is targeted at? Having said all that I do know one thing... I definitely want to tap into the goodness that teams get from Scrum meetings. Shared ownership, better visibility, help with removing obstacles, team building. However this would all exist within the scope of the members of the group as opposed to distinct project teams. Maybe there is another process which is targeted at these highly disruptive groups but which is similar to Scrum? Obviously I have more research ahead of me :-) posted on 6/13/2007 6:46:04 PM ( 3 Comments ) For the past few years nearly every project that I've been involved with has run a Scrum-like meeting. I say Scrum-like rather than Scrum because none of these projects have had a certified Scrum-master... and I don't want to weaken my argument for the rest of this article on a mere technicality Anyway, regardless of the Scrum'ness of the meetings, we do stick to those well known 3 questions that are associated with Scrum meetings: The idea of the Scrum meeting is that you get in, ask your questions, and get out. Very robotic and very focused. In nearly all projects I've noticed a gradual decline in the level of interest that the team has for these meetings as time progresses and I think that it has something to do with the low level nature of the information that is exchanged during these meetings. They've tended to be very task-oriented. For example: It seems to me that the repetitive, constant, daily grind of reeling off facts breeds apathy for the process and before long these Scrum meetings become "yet another meeting". When this happens I find that teams simply go through the motions and become less agile in their thinking about raising important issues or giving you information that could change and assist the process. So how do you change it so that you get the goodness that the Scrum meeting is designed to deliver while getting good information from your team about how things are going and what needs to be done? Up until this week I've been running daily SCRUM's in the Dev Centre but as of this morning I've decided to change it so that the weekly meetings will look more like this: Having meetings that are structured in this way will allow senior, responsible developers to become a little more self-managing and hopefully introduce enough creativity to produce a more creative culture. Bottom line... take the blinkers off of your team. The opportunity to gather should be a learning experience. Use those precious moments together to learn from each other as to how you can improve... who knows, maybe you'll end up with a better culture because of it! posted on 6/12/2007 2:23:47 PM ( 4 Comments ) Over the weekend I purchased 2 new books. I grabbed this one: I'm hoping that this book will provide me with some useful tips for inspiring creativity within teams. I also grabbed an audio CD version of this one: I'm so in love with Wiki's at the moment that I simply had to buy this one. This is also the first audio book that I've purchased so I'm hoping that it will provide me with many hours of relaxed learning on my travels posted on 6/12/2007 9:38:30 AM ( 0 Comments ) Another good news story for BlogML as the CCNetConfig blog is migrated from DasBlog to SubText: Made the move to SubText Made the move to SubText posted on 6/11/2007 8:46:16 AM ( 0 Comments ) The Dev Centre was created by Readify to manage the software development requirements of the business as well as to harvest IP from our existing processes. Last week I started the process of setting the goals of the Dev Centre for the coming year. One of the major goals for next year is to turn the Dev Centre into much more of a factory for creating software by standardizing on processes and increasing the levels of automation. Above all of the process and automation stuff, you also have to think about the things that are at the human level - such as creating an environment that people enjoy working in. Happy, mentally-active people are productive people, and it's these people who will add the most to the culture of your business. One of the things that comes up in this area on a fairly regular basis is pair-programming. That is, people regularly ask for pair-programming to be implemented as a standard part of how we do things. I always find this to be an interesting request because I've long been a fan of pair-programming and I can attest that my most significant programming victories have taken place through pair-programming sessions. Within Readify I can immediately recount some major pair-programming victories with Francois Beaussier, Mitch, and Paul Stovell. So the fact that there's no sign hanging above the (virtual) door of the Dev Centre certainly doesn't mean that I don't want to encourage it - I really do. Pair programming leads to the following highly desirable benefits: The challenges in implementing pair-programming are almost never technology or environment based but are more than likely people based. So if it's that difficult to get workers to pair-up in a standard office environment, what about when you have teams which operate within a virtual environment? Virtual pair-programming requires not only the trigger for the developers to connect but also a set of tools that enable a rich collaboration to occur. One of the tools that we've been playing with recently that might enable richer remote pair programming scenarios is Microsoft's new SharedView Beta. This is a very exciting tool in how it provides collaborative experiences and I can easily see it becoming very often used within the Dev Centre at Readify. posted on 6/10/2007 10:43:30 PM ( 1 Comments ) posted on 6/9/2007 10:10:49 AM ( 0 Comments ) Update: FrankArr tells me that the actual numbers of MS staff as at now is more like 72,000 full time staff and another 30,000 contractors... do the math on that! Last night I wrote a post titled "Where did the time go?" In that article I did some maths to highlight just how many hours are worked each week by a small 7 person team. After writing that article I went to bed thinking about the size of Microsoft and ran the maths over their bulk. I'm not sure exactly how many employees Microsoft actually have - but for the purposes of my exercise I used 60,000 as a number for the total pool of employees and contractors. So let's look at it: Microsoft Each day: 60,000 * 8 = 480,000 hours Each week: 480,000 * 5 = 2,400,000 hours Microsoft Each day: 60,000 * 8 = 480,000 hours Each week: 480,000 * 5 = 2,400,000 hours This company has access to 2.5 million hours of time per week! What could you do with that? Well think about it... let's say you live to be 80: You Your entire life: 80 * 365 * 24 = 700,800 hours You Your entire life: 80 * 365 * 24 = 700,800 hours If you live to be 80, and you never sleep, and you never stop working, and you are productive for every day that you are alive... you will have access to 700,000 hours. So each week, Microsoft has access to a pool of resources which represents 3.5 times the sum of your entire existence! posted on 6/8/2007 7:37:40 AM ( 0 Comments ). I used to write that way. Lots and lots of words. Hard to read Let's take another crack at that opening paragraph... Be clear in your writing. Remove unnecessary words and write in a positive tone. Your readers will thank you! Be clear in your writing. Remove unnecessary words and write in a positive tone. Your readers will thank you! That's better posted on 6/8/2007 6:52:28 AM ( 1 Comments ) I'm a DHSB Take the test Take the test posted on 6/8/2007 6:23:51 AM ( 0 Comments ) Time is an interesting resource. There's no way to get more of it and so we have to make do with the time that we have. You can use your time in any way that you choose but remember that whatever you choose to do with your time, that's all that you'll get. It's very easy to get caught up with the business of things and in the process believe that you are making good use of your time - but do you ever stop to analyze what you do with yours? How much time is spent on things that don't matter? How much of the time that you spend is spent actually moving away from your goals? As a manager of people I believe that time is something that you should always be acutely aware of. Each week I stop to think of the pool of people that I have working with me and I stop to do a quick check of the numbers: "7 people, that's 56 hours per day. 56 hours per day multiplied by 5 gives me 280 hours this week." "7 people, that's 56 hours per day. 56 hours per day multiplied by 5 gives me 280 hours this week." For a team 7 people that's 280 hours per week that can be used to move closer to the company goals... or to fritter away on email and drinking coffee. Stop and think about those numbers for a moment and the impact should dawn upon you. 280 hours is 35 days. At an average of 21 working days per month, that means that 1 week of a team of 7 people equates to nearly 2 calendar months of your time if it were laid out linearly. Now think of the conversations that you've had recently about the "things I'm gunna do", or "I thought about doing that but..." and you start to realize what a valuable asset such a block of time amounts to. So I suggest that each week when you arrive to work to meet your team of 7 that you should think about that week in the context of what you'd like to achieve if you had 2 months of focused time to work towards achieving your goals. To truly maximize that 2 month block of time invest a little effort in working out what that activities that you do are which don't help you get closer to meeting your goals. Is it reading email? Is it surfing the web? Or is it the greatest time killer of all... procrastination? Whatever it is, you must change your environment to assist you in maximizing what you get out of your allotment of time. I'll say it again... "CHANGE YOUR ENVIRONMENT" to assist you in maximizing what you get out of your allotment of time. If email is your killer habit - unsubscribe. If it's the Internet and the vast distractions of Web 2.0 - unplug. If it's procrastination - change your location. It's your time. You have 1 shot at what you will do with it. Whatever you do with your time is what you will be remembered by. posted on 6/7/2007 10:35:55 PM ( 0 Comments ) The other day I wrote about creating a new website and mentioned that I was favoring a move to Squarespace. I've continued to think about what I want to get out of this new web home and have decided that a pure blog product won't meet my needs... I really need a Wiki to do what I want. I started looking around for a hosted Wiki offering and none really stood out. I've applied for an account with JotSpot although they are currently offline after acquisition by Google and so I now have to wait until they let me know that I can proceed. Oh well, this will give me more time to really think about what I want my Wiki to be Or maybe the world is ready for SUW... sorry, bad joke, just kidding posted on 6/7/2007 8:45:11 AM ( 3 Comments ) One of the customs that we have in the Dev Centre at Readify is "the daily SCRUM". This involves everyone who is working on a Dev Centre project to submit an email by 10AM with their answers to those 3 well-known questions. Paul Stovell is a little different in that he tends to submit 2 SCRUM's - 1 which reflects the stuff that he does during his mild mannered daytime hours and another one which reflects the activities of his better known night-time alter ego SuperPaul. Recently while Paul was working on one particular project he started spewing out colorful charts which reflected the level of testing that his code had achieved when measured against Requirements. On those few evenings a couple of weeks ago was born "Scenario Coverage Analyser for TFS" and you can/should learn more about it by reading Paul's post on it here: Scenario Coverage Analyser for TFS Scenario Coverage Analyser for TFS Cool stuff! We've now released this and you can grab it from our website at the following location: Who knows, maybe soon your automated builds will be producing lovely charts such as this: posted on 6/6/2007 10:45:27 PM ( 0 Comments ) posted on 6/6/2007 10:04:13 PM ( 0 Comments ) If there's one thing that I've been really crappy at over the years it is documentation - but it's definitely something that I'm getting better at! It's when I go back through all of the 1300 or so posts that I've written over these last few years that I realize what an unstructured gaggle of information I've created. Contrast the tangled web of data that I've created with other more valuable online resources such as Wikipedia and you soon get a good feel for the potential that lies behind information that is properly maintained and structured. The cool thing about Wiki's is their organic nature and how they tend to grow outwards. This gives you the ability to link articles in a manner which allows a reader to pivot around on a piece of information. In addition to my growing admiration of wiki's I've also been giving a lot of thought to what I can do to improve the value of what I post online. This thinking has been greatly aided by the timely reading of the following two articles: Scott Hanselman's 23 way's to keep your blog from sucking The Definitive Guide to Semantic Web Markup for Blogs Scott Hanselman's 23 way's to keep your blog from sucking The Definitive Guide to Semantic Web Markup for Blogs All of this thinking has made me realize that I need a website which: So I've decided that I'm going to start a new blog and start adding articles to it on a regular basis about a more narrow range of topics and with all of the rants removed (that's what this blog is for ). I initially thought that I might start up a Subtext blog and host it on my server but then decided not to head down that path so that I'm forced to only focus on the content management and not on the technology. Last night I started playing around with a few of the major online blogging providers to see how they work and to get a feel for them. Here's some screen shots of what I tried out - you can actually click through to see them for yourself if you like: Squarespace WordPress Blogger Squarespace is the blog provider that Grant uses and so far it's the one that I like best. I've set it up in such a way that my name is more prominent and it will use keywords, tags, and themes that better represent the types of topics that I'll be writing about. Hopefully over time this will pay dividends in the way of better Google page rankings. I'm going to leave all of those blogs up and running, but if you are interested in my thoughts about Knowledge Worker topics then please subscribe to my Squarespace blog. posted on 6/6/2007 2:22:38 PM ( 10 Comments ) In the past week Google has announced Google Gears, an offline data storage solution for web applications. This has been implemented by Google Reader so I can now take my blog reading offline to read offline: In addition to adding offline reading support for Google Reader, Google have added cool new themes to their portal. Here you can see that I've added the theme called "Seasonal Scape". During the daytime the little critters can be seen at play... But at nighttime things are much quieter... posted on 6/4/2007 7:22:24 PM ( 1 Comments ) Here's a great quote found via this link:. This is another core requirement for all projects within the Dev Centre at Readify. Having systems that ensure that your projects are always in a known state is the thing that will allow you to sleep peacefully at night... trust me on that! posted on 6/3/2007 9:03:30 PM ( 3 Comments ) Hrmm, just found this entry from a blogger who says that BlogML failed him. I'll have to do a bit of research into this: Five Years Blogging at Theoblogical at Theoblogical Five Years Blogging at Theoblogical at Theoblogical posted on 6/3/2007 8:19:23 PM ( 2 Comments )

MIA: Comintern Archive: CP Great Britain: The Communist Review Contents By Issue Volume 1, May 1921, No. 1 Books and Pamphlets: Explaining the Communist Position The Heroic Sailors of the Russian Revolution, Larissa Reissner Ireland and the Social Revolution, Fred Willis What Are the Soviets? (Part I) W.E. Harding The Class War in Germany, Charles Rappoport Power or Persuasion?, Wm. Paul The Practical Problems of World Revolution, F. Maharadze How Lefebvre, Lepitet and Vergeat Were Drowned?, Frederick Strom The Communist International (Report from the Executive Committee) The Third Congress of the Communist International (Copy of the Agenda) Reports and Manifestos from all over the World: A Circular of the Russian Central Committee A Decision the Executive of the Communist International An Appeal of the Communist Party of Georgia France: Propaganda By Word Georgian Workers and the R.T.U.I. Summary of the Resolution adopted by the United Communist Party of Germany The United Communist Party of Germany and the Trade Unions Volume 1, June 1921, No. 2 Review of the Month Our Imperial Responsibilities, John Langland Russian Biographies in Little What Are the Soviets? (Part II) W.E. Harding Art and the Worker, W. McLaine One Step Back, Two Steps Forward, L. Petrovsky Capitalist Mexico Manifesto of the Communist International The Crisis in the Communist Party of Germany Book Reviews The World through Communist Spectacles Volume 1, July 1921, No. 3 Review of the Month America and Europe, Louis C. Fraina What Are the Soviets? (Concluding Article) W.E. Harding Martial Music (Poem) Communism in South Africa, David Ivon Jones Book Reviews A Communist History, Charles Roebuck Gaol for a German Comrade Towards the Socialist Republic International Review Volume 1, August 1921, No. 4 Review of the Month Tactics of the Russian Communist Party, Lenin The Irish Situation, Wm. Paul W. Hewlett’s Last Speech Revolutionary Tactics The Communist International and the Organisation of Trade Unions, G. Zinoviev Communism in South Africa International Review Some Leaders of the Communist International Volume 1, September 1921, No. 4 Guns, Bombs and Benzine, Norman Matson Origins of the 1914 War, Rene Marchard Progress of the Revolutionary Movement in South Africa, David Ramsay Revolutionary Socialism in Action Allies Attempt to Crush Russia (translated from Pravda) Initiative in the Class Struggle, Umberto Terraccini International Capitalism and the Third International Congress, Professor Varga Clara Zetkin’s Birthday Book Reviews International Review Volume 1, October 1921, No. 5 Review of the Month Rosa Luxemburg, Eden and Cedar Paul Capitalism in the Near East, J. T. Walton Newbold Report on the Communist Party of Great Britain, T. Bell The Communist Party Conference at Jena, M. Philips Price Lenin’s Letter to the Jena Congress The Problem of Communist Organisation, G. Lukacs Earth Bound, Lydia Shield Vicious Pacifism Clare Sheridan on Russia Women’s Work in Germany, Bertha Braunthal France and Germany, Paul Frolich Trade in Soviet Russia, Prof. E. Varga Report of Red Trade Unions Congress, J. T. Murphy Aggressive Tactics, Bukharin International Review Volume 2, November 1921, No. 1 Review of the Month The Realism of Revolt, R.M. Fox The Soviet Republic in the Capitalist Encirclement, L. Kameneff Women’s Movement in Soviet Russia, Ellen C. Wilkinson The Solidarity of Anarchism and the Fight against the Left, D. Ivon Jones The Young Proletarian Movement: Its Origins, Character and Aims, Alexandra Leontieff Observation on Scientific Education and the Proletariat, B. Fogarasi Statement of the Executive Committee of the Communist International on the Washington Conference Communist Tactic, Victor Stern The Rift in the Entente, J. T. Walton Newbold Theses on Unemployment International Review Volume 2, December 1921, No. 2 A Personal Testimony Radek’s Criticism of the Communist Party of Great Britain The Intellectuals and the Russian Revolution, S.J. Rutgers The Conquest of Mexico, Louis C. Fraina Songs of the Revolution Direct Action in Finance, C.H. Norman The Struggle for Central Europe, Walter and Margery Newbold International Review Volume 2, January 1922, No. 3 One Year Old White Guards in America: Truth About the American Legion — A Warning to Parlimentary Democrats, Arthur Warner Women’s Review Unemployment: The Responsibility of the Labour Party, Wm. Paul The Present and Future Prospects of the South Wales Miners, John Thomas Communism & Christianity, Mark Starr Review of the World Situation, Karl Radek Britain, Holland & Germany, J. T. Walton Newbold, M.P. Poland: The Fight Against Communism, L. Georges Volume 2, February 1922, No. 4 Review of the Month: Legacies from the Past, Wm Paul Communism and an International Language, Mark Starr On Leading the Masses, J. T. Murphy Communism or Reformism—Which? Maurice H. Dobb Russian Women at Work, Henriette Roland Holst The International of Money Bags, J. T. Walton Newbold Book Reviews International Review Volume 2, March 1922, No. 5 Review of the Month The Single Front, J. T. Murphy The New Theses Women and the Two November Revolutions, Clara Zetkin Hidden Hands, C.H. Norman The Moplah Rising, Abani Mukherji Belgium—Lawn or Player? J. T. Walton Newbold Book Reviews International Review Volume 2, April 1922, No. 6 Review of the Month Dynamics of Social Change, R. M. Fox The Struggle in Scottish Coalfields, A. Ritchie Water, Water Everywhere, Wm. McLaine Investigations of Famine Conditions in the Region of European Russia Programme of the African Blood Brotherhood The Engineerings Crisis and the United Front, J. T. Murhpy Book Review: Property and Political Power International Review Egypt Russia, Moscow Conference Red Calendar Index to Volume 2 Authors Subjects Volume 3, May 1922, No. 1 Wm. Paul, Editor Review of the Month: Our Birthday May-Day is Labour Day, T. O. Wiginton Revolt of the French Fleet in the Black Sea, Maurice Paz The Industrial Heroes of “Don Bas”: What We Saw in the Ukraine, Ivon D. Jones Does the World Need More Money?: A Reply to Major Douglas, Maurice H. Dobb A “Red” Book to Be Read, H. Wynn Cuthbert German Trade Unionism Since the War, J. Walcher The Comintern: Resolutions on the United Front Volume 3, June 1922, No. 2 Wm. Paul, Editor Review of the Month: Genoa, Wm. Paul The Lesson of May Day, L. Trotsky Politics in “The City”, J. T. Walton Newbold We Have Paid Too Much: Regarding the Berlin Agreement, Lenin The Fall of the Paris Commune, R. W. Postgate Lenin’s Wife, Henrietta Roland Holst Book Reviews Review of “Left Wing Trade Unionism in France”, J. T. Murphy “The A.B.C. of Communism”, William Paul “The British Empire” “In a Russian Village” “The Restoration of Agriculture in the Famine Area of Russia” The Fourth Anniversary of the Red Army in Moscow, E. Roy A Discussion on the Douglas Proposals: A Reply to Dobb, Hilderic Cousens The 11th Conference of the Russian Communist Party Volume 3, July 1922, No. 3 Wm. Paul, Editor Review of the Month: The Real Conspiracy Against Labour, Wm. Paul A Day in Moscow, A. Rosmer The Struggle Against New Imperialistic Wars, Clara Zetkin Current Phases of the Class Struggle in the United States, William D. Haywood The Asiatic Revolutionary Movement & Imperialism, Kinsic Kim Implications of the Transition Period, T. Bell High Finance and Foreign Politics: Putting the Ottoman Empire into Pawn, J. T. Walton Newbold Book Reviews: Social Struggles in Antiquity, by M. Beer Between Red and White, by L. Trotsky More Production and More Poverty, by J. P. M. Millar Communist Cartoons, by Espoir and others Les Responsables de la Guerre, by Alfred Pevet and Un Livre Noir International Review: Japan To the Soldiers of the Japanese Army in Siberia, Sen Katayama Volume 3, August 1922, No. 4 Wm. Paul, Editor The Rising Tide of Revolution, A. John The Famine in Russia: How the Capitalist States Helped, E. Roy Pacifism or Class War, E. Varga The Crisis in Germany: Responsibility of 2nd International, Wm. Paul Bolshevism & Church Property, D. Ivon Jones An Anarchist on Russia: A Reply to Emma Goldman, William D. Haywood Egypt & the Entente, J. T. Walton Newbold Book Reviews International Review Volume 3, September 1922, No. 5 Wm. Paul, Editor Review of the Month: Freedom and Justice, Wm. Paul American Imperialism and the Negro, D. Ivon Jones On the Role of Criticism During the Revolution, Karl Kreibich Questions to Vandervelde & the Second International, P. Stuchka, President of the Latvian Communist Party Indian Labour Movement: A Review of the Situation, Abani Mukherji The Cauldron of the East: I. The Greek Grain Kings, J. T. Walton Newbold II. The Fight in Constantinople, A. Rosenberg American Coal Strike: Peace Reigns at Herrin, K. Haessler Soviet Russia at the Hague: Report of Russian Delegation to its Government International Review Volume 3, October 1922, No. 6 Volume 3, November 1922, No. 7 Wm. Paul, Editor The Fifth Year The End of the Romanovs The Spoiling of Turkey, J. T. Walton Newbold The Debacle of Gandhism, E. Roy The Forum: On the Theory of the Social Revolution: Reconsideration of a Marxian Prediction, David S. Reiss Re-birth of the French C.P., E. Verney Why Lloyd George Fell, R. W. Postgate International Review: I. The Split in Italian Socialist Party, G. Zinoviev II. The Significant of the Split, A. Bordiga Book Reviews Volume 3, December 1922, No. 8 Wm. Paul, Editor The Election and After What Will Happen in Europe, E. T. Whitehead The Negro Problem in America A Cold Inferno, O. W. Kuusinen The Revolutionary Nationalist Movement in S. China, H. Maring The Contradictions of the Soviet Policy, L. Trotsky The Class War in Japan, G. Voytinsky Volume 3, January-February 1923, No. 9 & 10 Wm. Paul, Editor The Old Year and the New, Wm. Paul British Capitalism in 1922, M. H. Dobb Red Petrograd, Charles Ashleigh The Heritage of the Bolsheviks, G. Allen Hutt Five Years of Revolution in Russia, Clara Zetkin Franz Mehring, J. B. Askew Discipline and Centralised Leadership, Bela Kun Survey of the Class War, G. Zinoviev Volume 3, March 1923, No. 11 Wm. Paul, Editor The Old Revolutionist & the New, Wm. Paul London Residences of Karl Marx, John T. Winter How to Help Russia, E. T. Whitehead The Crucible of Revolution, Karl Radek The Re-birth of the French Communist Party, E. Verney The 4th Congress: A Special Report on the Recent World Congress of the Comintern, J. T. Murphy The Forum: A Reply to David S. Reiss, B. Tamarkin Book Reviews: Among the Books Volume 3, April 1923, No. 12 Wm. Paul, Editor Review of the Month: The Betrayal, Wm. Paul The Party Organ: What it Can Do for the Movement, C. M. Roebuck Communism and the Co-operative Societies, Karl Bittel Henry Ford’s Methods, John T. Winter A Workers’ Government: The Need for a Programme, W. E. Harding Georgia: A “Free” and Social-Democratic Republic, G. Allen Hutt Book Reviews Volume 4, May 1923, No. 1 Wm. Paul, Editor A Chance for May Day, Wm. Paul Erratum, John T. Winter A Great Marxian Party, N. Bukharin The Sverdlov University: The Russian Communist Party & Working-Class Education, Wm. Joss The Political Situation in Great Britain, J. T. Walton Newbold, M.P. From Kraal to Goldmine, L. A. Motler The Reaction in Bulgaria, Ch. (Khristo) Kabakchiev International Review: Against Fascism Communism & the Labour Party, J. T. Walton Newbold, M.P. The Red Calendar Volume 4, June 1923, No. 2 Wm. Paul, Editor Curzon’s Chance, Wm. Paul The Work of the Health Authorities in Soviet Russia, N. A. Semashko The Indian National Congress, M. N. Roy The New Economic Policy, D. Ivon Jones Canterbury Cant, Wm. Paul Russia’s Reconstruction, G. H. Allen Strategy and Tactics of the Russian Communists, I. Stalin Volume 4, July 1923, No. 3 Wm. Paul, Editor Russia Pays for Our Cowardice, Wm. Paul The Baldwin Ministry, J. T. Walton Newbold, M.P. The Anti-Communist International, R. Page Arnot The Crisis of the French Communist Party, P. Vaillant-Courturier Russia in 1905, G. H. Allen Where Labour Rules, J. Fineberg The Soviet and the Peasant, D. Ivon Jones Sverdlov University and its Lessons, Winifred Horrabin, Hon. Sec., Plebs League Industrial Co-Orgination and the New Organisation, S. Francis The National Union of Journalists, John S. Winter Struggle of the French C.P. Against Poincare Volume 4, August 1923, No. 4 Wm. Paul, Editor The Labour Party Conference, Wm. Paul Five Years’ Struggle, Victor Serge Under Kemalist Rule, Eric Verney The English Parliment: Its Origin, Growth and Functions, J. T. Walton Newbold, M.P. The Labour Party Conference, J. T. Murphy The Norwegian Labour Party The “Workers’ Life Page”, D. Ivon Jones Book Review, G. A. H. Volume 4, September 1923, No. 5 Wm. Paul, Editor Special Number A Workers’ Government and Food Supplies The Dockers’ Strike, Wm. Paul Democracy and the Second International, C. Rappoport Tasks of a Workers’ Government: Two Contributions I. Agriculture & Food Supplies, Wm. Joss. II. Fishing Industry & Food Supply, James Johnstone A Polish Prison, Thomas Dombal The International Red Aid, W. Budich An Impression of the New South Wales Annual Labour Conference, Annonymous Book Review Volume 4, October 1923, No. 6 Thomas Bell, Editor The Editorial View The United States of Europe, Leon Trotsky Ourselves and the Labour Party, Thomas Bell Lessons of Plymouth: Its Challenge to our Party, Harry Pollitt The Gang Behind the Steel Trust, J. T. Walton Newbold, M.P. The European Crisis and British Labour, J. T. Murphy A Mass Party in America, O. Carlson Co-operatives & Trade Unions Victims of the Class War, By the Information Bureau of the C.I. The Forum, A. D. Vertise Volume 4, November 1923, No. 7 Thomas Bell, Editor The Editorial View, Thomas Bell The Empire Conference and the Workers, J. T. Murphy Nikolai Lenin: A Brief Biographical Sketch of a Great Leader, Thomas Bell Unemployment and the Coming Winter, M. H. D. Soviet Russia and the World Crisis, Wm. Paul The Crisis in Agriculture, William Joss. The Tasks of Communist Education, L. Trotsky The Case for the Y.C.L., J. J. Pacifism and Communism, J. Epstein The Forum: Thoughts on Trotsky’s “The United States of Europe”, S. Muscovitch, Y.C.L.—Stepney Branch Book Review International Review Volume 4, December 1923, No. 8 Thomas Bell, Editor The Editorial View, Thomas Bell The General Election, J. T. Murphy Agriculture: A Sweated Industry, E. Batten Inflation & Deflation: An Analysis and Criticism, H. D. Dickinson Hands Off Workers’ Germany!, Part I, J. V. L. Russian Peasants’ Assistance to the German Proletariat, E. Wagner The Forum: The Literature of our Movement, T. Q. Book Review Volume 4, January 1924, No. 9 Thomas Bell, Editor The Editorial View, Thomas Bell The Second Wave of International Revolution, G. Zinoviev The Nationalist-Labour Pact in South Africa, V. Danchin Karl Liebnecht and Rosa Luxemburg: Last Hours Hands Off Workers’ Germany!, Part II, J. V. L. The Party Conference, J. T. Murphy Real “Economic Science”, R. Page Arnot International Review The Forum: Response to Trotsky on Darwin, W. E. Lyte Book Review Volume 4, February 1924, No. 10 Thomas Bell, Editor The Editorial View, Thomas Bell Death of Comrade Lenin The Coming Dock Strike, G. Hardy The ”Crisis” in the Russian CP, Thomas Bell Jute Industries, Ltd, D. J. P. Agriculture: The Subsidy Proposals, E. Batten The Party Conference, Harry Pollitt A Textbook of Revolution, R. P. A. International Review Book Review: The Posthumous Writings of Marx and Engels, by D. B. Ryadanov “January Fifteenth” [YCL memorial booklet for Liebknecht and Luxemburg] Volume 4, March 1924, No. 11 Thomas Bell, Editor The Editorial View, Thomas Bell The Message of March: The Commune—And After, T. A. Jackson The Political Mind of Ramsay MacDonald, J. T. Murphy Lenin’s First Book, D. Ivon Jones Programme of International Land and Forest Workers Jute Industries, Ltd., D. J. P. International Review The Forum Volume 4, April 1924, No. 12 Thomas Bell, Editor The Editorial View, Thomas Bell The Labour Government or the Class Struggle, C. M. Roebuck and R. Palme Dutt The Unemployed Worker’s Charter: An Examination, E. Stanley The ”New Trend” of the Bolshevik Party Mayakovsky, Poet of the Russian Revolution, Henri Guilbeaux The Party Conference, T. A. Jackson International Review Book Review: Bloody American Capitalism: Its Murder by Labour, by Joe Walker, W. T. C. Volume 5, May 1924, No. 1 Thomas Bell, Editor A. H. Hawkins, Business Manager The Editorial View, Thomas Bell The First of May, T. A. Jackson Trade Unions and the Workers’ Struggle, J. R. Campbell The Unemployed Workers’ Charter, Wal Hannington Scottish Trade Unions in Congress, Thos. Bell Lenin the Happy, Mary Talland James Connolly, A. McManus International Review Volume 5, June 1924, No. 2 Thomas Bell, Editor A. H. Hawkins, Business Manager The Editorial View, Thomas Bell Comintern’s Message to C.P.G.B. The End—or the Beginning, T. A. Jackson Lenin’s First Newspaper, D. Ivon Jones Factory Groups, C. M. Roebuck Draft Programme of C.P.G.B. to the Comintern International Review The Forum: Shall We Combat Religion?: A Reply to Balwin, H. W. Davey Shall We Combat Religion?: A Reply to Balwin, D. C. Corrie The Conflict Between Communism and Religion, Leslie Mason, Barrow Branch Review of Books

Worldcon 2012: FragmentsSeptember 12, 2012 at 5:17 am | Posted in Essays | 10 Comments Tags: Worldcon Last week, I flew to Chicago for the 70th World Science Fiction Convention. It was my first Worldcon. Among other things, I was looking forward with the chance to talk to other people who read science fiction. It’s Wednesday evening and my roommate, a veteran of more than ten previous Worldcons, is unpacking the books he hopes to get signed. He has brought 10 Robert Silverberg books. I break the bad news about the signing policy (only 3 books per trip through the line) and then, with some embarrassment, I admit I haven’t read any Silverberg. He suggests a novel that would be a good place to start, then asks what I’ve been reading lately. I tell him I read and enjoyed Kameron Hurley’s God’s War on the flight to Chicago. He’s never heard of it. A week and a half later I am writing the first draft of this post and trying to figure out what novel he recommended, but I didn’t write it down. I have Silverberg’s Wikipedia article open in another tab. My monitor is not even close to large enough to display the published novel list on one screen. Reading Silverberg’s backlist would probably take me multiple years. Just reading the ten books my roommate wanted signed would put a substantial dent in a year’s reading schedule. According to a post by Gary K. Wolfe, in 2008 alone Locus recorded the publication of 254 science fiction novels and 436 fantasy novels. The rise of electronic publishing and the erosion of barriers to self-publishing seem sure to increase these numbers by an order of magnitude or more soon if they haven’t already. For the most part this is a good thing. As the genre fragments, readers can find novels aligned to their specific tastes, novels that wouldn’t be viable if less SF was published. Although more bad novels are published, more great novels are published as well. None of this is in any way unique to SF, or even literature. The same process is much further along in music and not as far along in movies and television, but entertainment of all kinds is moving in the same direction, or rather, is moving in all directions simultaneously. Yet if you like talking about genre fiction as much as reading it, shared context is harder and harder to find. As Wolfe puts it elsewhere in the same post: “To claim a title as the best SF or fantasy novel of the year seems to me to imply a core readership with a common set of values and assumptions, but as far as I can tell that readership has been dismembering itself into various caucuses for several decades now.” It is Wednesday afternoon, the day before the convention starts, and I have just registered and am putting mental breadcrumbs between important locations in the labyrinthine hotel. As I walk the hall, I hear the words “fen” and “mundanes” used unironically for the first time in my life. The big nametags make it easy to identify other people here for the convention, but in most cases it isn’t necessary. Convention people dress differently, talk differently, and act differently from ordinary guests. I’m amazed that people from all over the country, and indeed in some cases all over the world, seem much more like each other than they are like the people I see every day in my normal life. From the outside, Chicago’s Cloud Gate presents a coherent (if in places distorted) skyline. Over the next few days I will revise this first impression. Certainly the sample was skewed by the day of the week, as for a variety of reasons the people I saw on Wednesday afternoon crowd were older and much more “fannish” than the actual convention average. But also I soon realize fan culture isn’t as monolithic as it seemed at first, something I should have realized just from reading the program. How many people at the convention were interested in filk? In costuming? In table gaming? In anime? These and many more hobbies could be pursued to the exclusion of anything else if the attendee desired. Alternatively, one could (and I did, I’m afraid) ignore them entirely. Beneath Cloud Gate the image splits into diverse but overlapping fragments. In the convention’s pocket program, the convention chair’s welcome message included the following reassurance: “I promise you, there are several folks you haven’t met yet who are *exactly* the kind of geek you are.” In this day and age there’s no need to settle for being friends with someone who is almost the same kind of geek you are. It’s not just entertainment that’s fragmenting, it’s culture. On Sunday morning, I am listening to a panel titled “Historical Reality in Fantasy”. Two of the panelists turn out to have run pen and paper roleplaying games. When they spend a few minutes discussing fantasy roleplaying game settings and answer a question about them from the audience, another audience member raises his hand and objects that while he enjoys roleplaying games, he comes to Worldcon to hear about literature. I sympathize, but he is one person out of an audience of a hundred or more. Should his concept of the panel prevail over that of the person sitting next to him? By the relentlessly democratic logic of Worldcon his opinion is, by itself, without import. Had he asked for a show of hands, the panel might have paid attention. It’s Sunday evening and I am sitting in a room with several thousand people waiting to hear the results of the genre’s most prominent show of hands, the Hugo Awards. The Hugo Awards ceremony is the only event without anything programmed against it (on Thursday I went to a panel instead of the opening ceremonies), yet the entire convention population isn’t there. Not even close. Still, it’s a large group, and toastmaster John Scalzi uses this to make an appeal to unity. The Hugos, he says, bring everyone together. He then builds a description of the breadth of the genre community out of allusions to the nominees. It’s a clever and well-delivered little speech, but do the Hugo Awards really bring everyone together? Is that even possible? It’s earlier on Sunday evening and I am in the same big room with almost the same number of people twenty minutes before the Hugo awards ceremony will begin. I am saving the seat beside me for my sister, but on the other side of me are two middle-aged men. When I notice they are talking about Ken Liu’s short story “Paper Menagerie” I begin eavesdropping on their conversation. They seem like old friends, and after they both agree Liu’s story was their favorite, they go on to discuss this year’s Hugo-nominated novels. Deadline is faintly praised, Among Others is agreed to be fantastic, but then it turns out one of them hasn’t read a single China Mieville novel even though Embassytown is another of the ballot’s novel nominees. It is the Friday after the convention and I am back home plowing through an enormous Google Reader backlog. I get to popular British blogger Adam Whitehead’s short post about the Hugo awards. After listing the winners of some of the categories, he takes a backhanded swipe at the fact 2,000 people voted, a number he seems to feel is too small to justify the awards’ reputation as the most prestigious in the genre. In fact, not everyone votes in all categories. Only 1664 votes were cast for Best Novel, for example. We can’t know how many of those votes were cast by people who, like the man sitting next to me at the awards ceremony, have only read some of the nominees, but it seems safe to assume it was a significant percentage. The numbers are even smaller when one considers ballots cast for nominating works to the short list: only 958 in the novel category. The novel nominated the most times, Jo Walton’s eventual winner Among Others led the field with 175 votes while Hannu Rajaniemi’s debut novel The Quantum Thief received 70 nominations and missed the short list by a single vote. So Whitehead actually overstated the size of the voting population, but that’s not to say he’s right that the small scale of the voting, and the small breadth of the voters’ reading, should decrease the awards’ prestige. It is Sunday evening again and the Hugo ceremony is nearly over. Jo Walton is accepting the award for Best Novel. Afterward the talk about her speech will center on her thanks to disgraced Readercon volunteer Rene Walling for suggesting “Among Others” as the title for her novel, but her first words at the microphone are an apology to George R. R. Martin, as if she has received the award through some irreversible clerical error and not the will of the voters. People laugh as if this is a joke, but she may not have been joking. If the Hugo voting population was greatly expanded in the way Whitehead implies would provide greater legitimacy, it seems safe to say A Dance with Dragons would have won. In sales of actual books, the most democratic measure of a book’s worth, there would be no contest. Longtime genre award watcher Nicholas Whyte noted in April that even among users of the site Goodreads, a group surely biased toward reading more widely than the general population, four times as many people owned A Dance with Dragons than the other four nominees combined. The only possible solution to this tangle is to be content to have multiple awards for the best genre novel of the year, each determined by different means. Prestige can then accrue organically. Happily this is already the case. One could argue that the Nebula Awards, given to authors by other authors in a manner similar to the Oscars, ought to in fact be the most prestigious awards, but strange choices and an even more problematic voter pool make them a distant second to the Hugos. As a side note, as easy as it is to point to a few books and call them bestsellers, it is preposterously difficult to determine what the bestselling genre books of a given year actually are, and someone with access to those numbers could do the field a service by providing the answer. Unfortunately Amazon treats sales numbers the way dragons traditionally treat treasure, so this may be impossible. It is Thursday evening and I am in the hotel bar surrounded by people with access to at least some sales numbers. My sister, a fantasy author whose first novel was published last year, arrived in the afternoon and has been introducing me to her friends, almost all of whom are authors here primarily to promote their writing and network with other people in the industry. There are exceptions in any group but for the most part they rarely attended conventions before they were published, have few of the cultural tics of longtime fans, and when pressed most admit that since they began writing they hardly have time to read. One might think that being an author at a literature-oriented convention would be glamorous. Perhaps it is for superstars, but I don’t meet the superstars. Most people I meet are authors who have published their first novel in the last three years or so. These are the 99% of authors, the ones for whom the exposure of sitting on a panel, even if it’s a panel about writing attended almost exclusively by authors and people aspiring to be authors, might make a noticeable difference in sales. Although the names often strike me as familiar, in almost every case I haven’t read anything they have written. Introductions work differently in this networking-oriented population. People don’t merely say the person’s name, they add something to indicate why people should care about them. Typically it goes “X, author of Y” but there is a “spouse of” present in addition to me, a “brother of”. After an hour of this, I use the fact I have published all of four reviews with Strange Horizons to promote myself to “Matt, reviewer for Strange Horizons“. My sister deservedly laughs at me for being status conscious, but I think I detect a change. Not in the willingness of people to talk to me, for everyone is surprisingly friendly and easy-going, but in their comfort level at the initial introduction. An author’s brother could be anyone: a writer, an agent, an editor, or…just a brother. A reviewer is known quantity. Later, I am introduced to SF Signal’s John De Nardo. I don’t really know him, but I feel like I do, for his links to SF Signal content made up 90% of my Google+ feed even when I still checked it regularly. Unlike everyone else I’ve met so far, he at least pretends my name sounds familiar. Perhaps it does: I commented on one or two of those Google+ items, and while I’m not sure I think he might have linked to my blog once or twice. But even at Worldcon this blog is obscure enough that I expect to meet no one who reads it. It’s Friday night, and I’m waiting for an elevator with Strange Horizons editor Niall Harrison. While vacationing in the USA he has been rereading Kim Stanley Robinson’s Mars trilogy and tells me that he was reading my review of it on my blog. He very much disagrees with it, he adds, in the friendly manner of someone hoping for a stimulating discussion. I blink. I reviewed the Mars trilogy? I know I read it in the late 90s, and thankfully for all of us I wasn’t reviewing books online at the time, but all I recall is that I enjoyed some of the political machinations but found the prose drier than I would have liked. Ever courageous of my convictions, I mutter that I’ve been posting reviews online since 2003, that I’ve become a lot more sophisticated as both a reader and as a reviewer since then, and in general I throw my past self and his opinions directly under the bus. On Saturday morning I am using Google to locate the review Niall mentioned, half-expecting he had me confused with someone else. It turns out I did review the Mars trilogy in 2006. Reading the review in 2012, the language is recognizably my own but much of the content is new to me, in particular the half-hearted discussion of the role of executives in the story. I think I was trying to say that no matter what one thinks of executives, accurately presented most of their activities make for dull reading, but I can’t say for sure. The review reads like something dashed off in thirty minutes and posted without being read over, which was generally my practice at the time. In one sense, I “know” Kim Stanley Robinson’s Mars trilogy. When it comes up in conversation I have things to say: I have read it, I can describe features of its narrative and style, I can name elements that some people find attractive and elements that some people find alienating. But it is a shallow knowledge, the sort of knowledge people write guides for faking at dinner parties. The details are lost to me until I reread it. In cognitive science there is a concept of a working set, the amount of information we can hold in short-term memory at once for use in solving problems. How many novels can I recall enough about to discuss in depth? Not very many. It was to avoid the loss of this information that I began to write reviews. By writing down what I think, I can have access to those thoughts in the future! The brief, incomplete nature of this site’s older posts derives partly from their intended use merely as notes to stimulate recall. But whenever I revisit my reviews from before the last couple years, I run into the problem that I am no longer the same person. Six years ago I was someone else, a person who remembered different books than I do today. It’s not easy for us to have a conversation. It’s Friday night and I am at the Night Shade party having the most free-flowing conversation I will have at the convention. I am talking with reviewer and anthologist Rich Horton, and I can cite stories and novels by name and continue to make my point without worrying he might not have read them. Eventually while discussing K.J. Parker I bring up historical fiction author Dorothy Dunnett. Even this succeeds, for like many genre readers he’s also a Dunnett fan, and we talk about her Lymond and Niccolo series. It’s only when we move still further from the genre that we run aground on the contextual rocks: I haven’t read Raymond Carver and he hasn’t read Faulkner. It is Monday and I am flying home. I am thinking of the conversation with Horton, and how while I was able to toss out the names of short stories and be perfectly confident he would know what I’m talking about, he was not in the same position. Me talking to Rich Horton about short stories is like the friend at work who talks to me about science fiction having only read Ender’s Game and Dune. This line of thinking develops into the beginnings of an idea for an unusual sort of convention wrap-up post, a present tense narrative that jumps around in time while following thematic threads. I have a hazy idea this is a standard form for feature articles in magazines, but I don’t read enough conventional magazines to have a good feel for the way such stories are written. I know that if I write it, I will end up aping the Doctor Manhattan issue of Watchmen more than respectable journalism. I decide that while this resort to genre is slightly embarrassing, it’s also more than a little appropriate. Doctor Manhattan’s narrative is intended to underscore his inhumanity by illustrating his nonlinear experience of time, but this is not as foreign from the human experience as we tend to think. First person novels typically present us with a linear narrative, but this is a conceit that is nothing like how the human memory functions. Not only can I not reproduce the exact words of a conversation I had last week (the way first person narrators often authoritatively provide exact words for conversations taking place years in their past), I have trouble even remembering when in the sequence of half-remembered events a conversation happened. In writing this post I frequently had to resort to the convention program just to determine the day on which something happened. The experience was linear, but the memories that endure are only fragments. It is Monday morning, the last day of Worldcon, and I am packing. “How was your con?” my roommate asks me. His phrasing is considered. We have been at the same convention, yet my con is not the same as his con. In five days of programming I ran into him outside our room exactly three times: twice at the only two panels we both happened to attend and once in the aftermath of the Hugo awards. In almost all respects, we have been at two different conventions superimposed on one location: different panels, different readings, different conversations, different parties. And there are far more than just two: each attendee experiences a different convention. But how could it be otherwise? Each attendee has been reading a different genre, though they are all called science fiction. 10 Comments » RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI Blog at WordPress.com. | Theme: Pool by Borja Fernandez. Entries and comments feeds. While there’s plenty to unpack out of that post I just wanted to say that that was an astonishing piece of writing. Thank you. Comment by Ian Mond— September 12, 2012 # Thanks for the thoughtfull post about your worldcon expierence. I’m very aware that, even at much smaller conventions, the convention I attend is very different then the same con a writer or fan attends. Your emphasis on the splintering of the genre/culture is an important point that I grapple with daily, both as a publisher, and as someone who feels deeply engaged in the genre’s “long conversation.” It was nice meeting you, if only briefly. Hopefully you will find your way to other conventions, and be able to provide compairsons and contrasts to world con. Id love to read your impression on world fantasy, and/or readercon, or wiscon… all of which are radically different than worldcon and each other. Comment by jlassenjlassen— September 12, 2012 # Thank you, Matt. I particularly like the photos of Cloud Gate, too. I’ve been curious about it ever since SOURCE CODE. Comment by Paul Weimer (@PrinceJvstin)— September 12, 2012 # Wonderful post. I feel cons have always existed in a kind of fragmented continuum (how’s that for an oxymoron) in which the gamers might never meet the costumers who might never meet the filkers, and yet somehow it all weaves together to make up conspace. There’s just enough crossover from subgroup to subgroup and just enough commonality of sources to make it one fabric and not just a patchwork quilt. Comment by ctanwriter— September 12, 2012 # Wow, what a fantastic read. I’m three-quarters of the way through, and it occurs to me, “This is reading just like the Doctor Manhattan issue,” (I just read WATCHMEN for the first time last month) “I should write a comment about that.” Then I read the next section and laughed. And only as I type this do I notice it fitting right in with your theme of commonality… Comment by Chris ("Salt-Man Z")— September 12, 2012 # As everyone else has said, this is a fascinating account: thank you for writing it. (It reminds me of some things I wrote about my first cons, particularly the point about having a role, being a known quantity.) And so far as the Mars trilogy goes, I think your write up is still worthwhile, or I wouldn’t have mentioned it! You put your finger on some things about the trilogy that are worth discussing — not just the executives and transnats (which I’d argue don’t feel so outdated now, post financial crisis), but the strong sense of national types (which is disconcerting, but which I’d argue is there so that there is something obvious to break down and leave behind as the characters become more natively Martian). So there. Comment by Niall— September 12, 2012 # Paul: I went to Cloud Gate expecting to be aloof and unimpressed. After all, it’s just a big mirror. But it is really is cool, and in a way that pictures (though I did take a lot; put two more on Twitter) can’t really capture. I haven’t seen Source Code yet but I’ve been meaning to check it out. Jeremy: I may go to Capclave next month since it’s so close to where I live and that certainly would be quite a contrast. However, close though it is, I don’t think I know anyone else going, and I’m the sort of person who needs introductions to meet people. Niall: “It reminds me of some things I wrote about my first cons” Links? Niall ctd: “You put your finger on some things about the trilogy that are worth discussing.” I just wish I’d done more to discuss them then, since I can’t today. Well, can’t do so with any accuracy. I won’t let that stop me, though! About the executives, I guess what I would say now is that if you are writing a novel about how humans on Mars evolve toward new and hopefully superior forms than what exists on benighted old Earth, you should put forward and defend a thesis about what those problems on Earth were and why they are no longer controlling on Mars. I don’t remember to what degree KSR did this, but at the time I thought the villains caricatures. The national stereotypes are also caricatures, and in both cases I don’t think they are necessary. This isn’t a short story, it’s a trilogy, quite a long trilogy even by modern standards, I believe. Surely there’s time to give the bad guys and the bit characters–and therefore the problems they represent–some depth? I guess the answer, to be blunt, is probably no, not when there are massive descriptions of sand taking up so much space. But while I would have liked the books a lot more without so much scenery, I’m sure many people who loved the books wouldn’t love them without it. Comment by Matt Hilliard— September 13, 2012 # Really enjoyed the way you framed write-up; it captures the way cons always feel so dissociative to me. I find the transition from convention time to post-convention time jarring. At the con, I have my schedule grid, highlighted in multiple colors, a clear path through the day, A then B then C then D. Afterwards, it all blurs: did I have that conversation Friday or Thursday? When did I play that game or see that costume or have that book recommended to me–or was it at a different convention altogether? Having the schedule grids on hand to reconstruct my memory is less helpful than I think it should be; so much of what happens is interstitial, not on the page. And the moments of connection–”Oh, you’ve read THAT!”–stand out against a backdrop of almost-but-not-quite-my-tribe. By the next con, they’re all I remember, and I’m enthused again. But immediate after, they feel too sparse, too few. If you’re going to a con not knowing anyone, you could do worse than Capclave. It’s at least small enough that you’re likely to run into the same people over and over again through the weekend. Comment by ambyr— September 13, 2012 # [...] genre. Where was it twenty years ago? Where is now? People’s answers will differ, for they haven’t read the same stories. In 1960 people at least agreed about what science fiction was, allowing them to productively argue [...] Pingback by No More Falconer: Science Fiction’s Past and Present « Yet There Are Statues— September 19, 2012 # Belatedly, I wanted to echo what other commenters have said: I really enjoyed this piece. Thanks for sharing it. Comment by Nic— September 19, 2012 #

RIM Unveils New OS Based On QNX 262 New submitter HommeDeJava writes "Research In Motion unveiled a new operating system for its tablet and smartphones at the company's BlackBerry developer conference in San Francisco. Called BlackBerry BBX, the new OS combines features of the existing BlackBerry OS and its recently acquired real-time QNX OS. Could BBX attract software developers and spur interest from consumers?" As a blackberry user, I don't need a crystal ball (Score:5, Insightful) I already know the future. Fail, of the epic kind. Re:As a blackberry user, I don't need a crystal ba (Score:5, Insightful) I agree. Too little, too late. It'll take years for them to turn things around, and they just don't have the time. Re:As a blackberry user, I don't need a crystal ba (Score:4, Interesting) Bimbo Newton Crosby, RIM is a corpse. If this would have happened five or even three years ago? they may have had a shot. but the ship has done sailed and from the looks of it the final tally will be Apple #1 with Android trading spots with iOS from time to time, so iOS and Android own 1 and 2, and MSFT buying their way into third place but not having a prayer of taking #2 much less the coveted #1 spot. With mobile there is always a chance of something coming from out of left field, after all who would have thought 6 years ago that Android would suddenly explode, but RIM just doesn't have it. They don't have the hardware, the designs, nor the buzz, and even the CxO types are all running around playing with their iPhones and HTC Androids, its over. I just wonder who will buy them out for the IP, MSFT or Google? Maybe Samsung? Re: (Score:2) Re:As a blackberry user, I don't need a crystal ba (Score:4, Insightful) Key measures are a) profit share and b) share of web browsing c) number of app downloads and total number of (quality?) apps availble; in other words, what matters is how much the user use and can use their phones. Android will overtake Apple in these measures but it is taking much longer [wikipedia.org]. If you think like this Apple is still ahead so far (and only just, and only if you include the iPod touch!). Incidentally, this shows that WP7 has almost no hope. If you are an app developer you will do an iPhone app and some will do an Android app to show you support "alternative" people. Soon it will be the other way round (in fact I'd say that it's already the other way round in some markets). The inertia you need to overcome the leader is too much. The only reason that Android is succeeding is that Apple left a low end in the market available for them to develop in. Now the market has to be analysed as the 1990's PC market. Apple is Apple. Android is Windows and Windows is OS2, a late entry by an an over-arrogant computing incumbent. Re:As a blackberry user, I don't need a crystal ba (Score:5, Insightful) Don't get ahead of yourselves. Let's not forget that Apple came back from a far worse shape than this in the late 90s. It is way too early to say that "they just don't have time". They better put a move on it, pronto, would be a much more accurate statement. Re: (Score:2) Apple also doesn't have a dead dog in the race, with frequent outages of service due to a single point of email and message failure controlled by their proprietary network. Apple also innovated the hell out of their products. RIM has not done this. It's a "me too" effort at best, and not a very good one. Outside of organizations married to its corp-friendly proprietary nonsense, RIM has zero reputation right now. As a developer, I wouldn't spare a thought towards porting my applications to that platform. It's correction (Score:2, Funny) not pronto, procnto is the process manager in qnx. Re: (Score:3) Let's not forget that Apple came back from a far worse shape than this in the late 90s. It is way too early to say that "they just don't have time". Have you even heard one of their co-CEOs talk? One is all techno-babble and the other is a bean-counter with no real product experience. None of them are the caliber of Steve Jobs, and as a company, RIM is not the caliber of pre-Jobs Apple in the 90s (which was still quite innovative, just mismanaged). Fire one or both of the current leadership, and we can talk turnaround. As it is RIM does not have the DNA for a massive course-change. Re: (Score:2, Funny) I thought this was going to be a cut and paste of the BSD is dying usenet message from the 1990s. Re: (Score:3) they could simply port the encryption and infrastructure to Android... I still believe they make awesome hardware and it's a shame to see it go to waste because of the same mistake done over and over and over again :\ Re: (Score:3, Insightful) Given the legal challenges to Android right now, I would imagine they don't want to put all of their eggs in one basket. I can't blame them. It could turn into a win if the OS is well accepted. The game isn't over till it's over. If anyone in recent history has taught us that, it's Apple. Android popped up in a smartphone market ruled by iOS and is now a huge player. RIM could pull the same move, although the OS won't be available for free, it could gain them needed traction in a market that is quickly slipp Re: (Score:2) Android popped up in a smartphone market ruled by iOS and is now a huge player. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember seeing bunches of reports on Android back in the late Palm T|E days competing with Dell's Windows based mobile. iOS wasn't even on the radar then. Re: (Score:2) That's correct. Android was demonstrated and shown off a few weeks before the iPhone was even announced back in 2007. There's a CES 2007 video showing Android. Looking remarkably... blackberry-ish or WinMo ish with a 5-way navigator and stuff like that. Then the iPhone was announced, and a serious amount of re-engineering happe Re:As a blackberry user, I don't need a crystal ba (Score:5, Funny) I already know the future. Fail, of the epic kind. I prefer fail of the EEPROM kind. Re:As a blackberry user, I don't need a crystal ba (Score:5, Funny) Re: (Score:3) That's the EPROM. EEPROMs are Electrically Erasable. Re: (Score:2) Agreed. I own a BB and a Playbook. The Playbook, BTW, i bought at 50% off with bonus accessories.. As for the Playbook, its got a really nice screen, responsive, good feel. And thats about it. I'm using it as an ebook reader - I read a lot of PDFs and the ei Re: (Score:2). I have a BB Bold, which I agree is a good phone. Haven't gone to OS6. Has RIM figured out that people actually send html mail? As for the Playbook, I looked for one when they first cam out, but couldn't find a single working demo anywhere they were sold, so I gave up. I'd say RIM is toast. haha... the announcement itself was the start it (Score:3) QNX was NOT fast. It was however quite efficient and bragged for years about task switching times Re:As a blackberry user, I don't need a crystal ba (Score:4, Interesting) BB is still entrenched in Corporate America. There's massive inertia there. Oh yeah? Is that why RIM's morning general session at its conference had a heavy emphasis on games? [infoworld.com] From what I can tell, the most recent BlackBerry hardware has been targeted squarely at the teenage/college student market. Apparently BlackBerry Instant Messaging is more popular than SMS in some parts of the UK and Europe. Meanwhile, white collar workers have increasingly been demanding to use their own devices in the workplace; The Economist even did a special report on the trend a week or so ago. You think the general public is buying up BlackBerrys? Nope. It's iPhones they want to use in the office, and once it's the C-level execs asking for it, the IT department won't have much choice but to allow it. Get rid of the BES lock-in and it's game over for RIM. Re: (Score:2) Corporate America is rapidly shifting to support Android and iPhones (executives are demanding, and getting it). Two years ago, PwC was 36k some odd blackberries, today it supports iOS and Android and people are moving them in droves. Blackberry has nothing. good enough for nuclear reactors (Score:3, Insightful) Re: (Score:2) You shouldn't have been rated down, but yeah I don't see this being a negative. With all the professional users of blackberry phones, their tablet's almost assured a user base. MOD ABUSE above (Score:2) good enough for nuclear reactors ... sounds like an industrial strength, secure platform that might actually be adopted by governments, enterprise companies, medical, etc. not sure how it will be marketed to education and gaming though, except by showing nice 3d framerates Seriously, how is this modded -1? QNX is all about special purpose dedicated applications. If the military needed a specialized tablet QNX may very well be the OS of choice, perhaps RIM the supplier. Likely, no. Plausible, yes. Similar story for specialized tablets for medical use, say something rated to be used in an operating room (note that this is more about the hardware than software, an iPad probably can't be sterilized without inadvertently destroying the electronics) to control equipment, display da Re: (Score:2) In order for QNX to meet the specialized requirements you're thinking of, every part of the OS has to be certified, which means nothing Blackberry produces will be useful to the military for 2-4 years at the soonest or it will be stripped down to the point that RIM will have no advantage. Contrary to popular belief QNX isn't that impressive anymore. It was at one point, but theres nothing about it now that isn't a well known and well understood concept, at least when your thinking of RTOS and security stand Re: (Score:2) If you can boast an OS that doesn't lag while multitasking (eg. Music over bluetooth in the background) while doing other stuff (education, games, whatever) and furthermore that it'll keep running demanding workloads for months without becoming unstable or crashing, I think you'll be able to get pretty broad interest in the platform. Re: (Score:2) But what advantage does QNX offer here? I sure want an RTOS in my car's anti-lock braking system, but I couldn't care less if my phone is "just" a Unix derivate. If Linux is good enough to run Google and Wall Street, and BSD is good enough to run a huge chunk of Internet routers, then either of them are good enough to run my phone. Enterprises are mainly built around Unix, IBM, or Windows. Medical is very often centered around Windows. Education gets by fine on Macs and Windows. RTOSes aren't especially good oh QNX (Score:3)? If you like ASM sure (Score:2, Informative) The entire OS is written in assembly along with the applications. So if thats your thing then go for it. Re:If you like ASM sure (Score:4, Informative) Sounds incredibly unlikely, considering it's ported to ARM, MIPS, PPC, i386, etc. Vaguely Unixy, Tiny Microkernel, Fast (Score:2) Yeah, it's been a decade or two since I've seen QNX too. It was a real-time OS with a message-passing microkernel that was only 4KB, which meant that it could be running on-chip in cache (assuming the cache didn't have better things to do, which it probably did, but 4-8KB was a typical cache size for a processor back then.) Re: (Score:2) The big question is not the core POSIX APIs, but how you do UI, high-level networking and so on. For UI, QNX has Photon, but I very much doubt that it's what they'll use in this thing; and even if they do, they'll likely wrap it in something higher-level (it's vanilla C). QNX is not another unix implementation (Score:5, Informative) I last booted QNX something like 10 years ago...back then it was realtime, unix based (I think?), and relatively promising. I remember it was even more responsive than Linux (which was was more responsive than Windows) ... Anyone have experience programming for QNX? If it's "just another unix" shouldn't porting to it be straightforward? QNX is a real-time operating system. For programmer convenience some things are unix-like. However unlike Linux and other unix implementations QNX is a *hard* real-time OS, you are guaranteed that things will happen within certain timeframes. QNX is targeting embedded environments, in particular environments that require incredible reliability - for example military and aerospace. QNX is exactly the sort of thing you use when you are building a mars rover. Re:QNX is not another unix implementation (Score:4, Interesting) Except, of course, the Mars Rovers used VxWorks. :-) (Another hard real-time embedded OS which is used quite a bit more than QNX.) I disagree (Score:2) QNX is distributed, network aware implementation of POSIX APIs on top of a rather unique realtime kernel. But it is a unix-based system, with most of the GPL tools cross-compiled. Your command line doesn't change much, if at all. The QNX GUI (if it survived the merger with Blackberry tech) is tight, slick, low-profile interface. Very responive. Personally I'm interested in developing for any one platform, so I focus on Java 6 JEE based services that will eventually provide for HTML5 web interfaces to Re: (Score:3) Re: (Score:2) As I said, the question is whether you think Unix is a kernel or the tools. If the tools and APIs are compatible, good enough. It's a unix system. Every manufacturer's implementation of Unix uses a different kernel. If you think they're still on the original AT&T SVR4 or BSD 4.2 code bases, you're way off course. They've all been tweaked and tuned, with different advantages and disadvantages for scalability, tuning, and management. QNX is another kernel, nothing more. A very slick kernel, but ju Re: (Score:2)? Yes and no, it's a no obfuscated obtuse set of APIs to program against. We can't even get stuff that worked in QNX 5 to compile under QNX 6. Two years ago one of teams decided to upgrade an existing system that ran QNX 5 and some proprietary hardware. They just planned an OS upgrade to QNX6 and swapping a few of the specialty cards out. It still doesn't work two years later. We could have ported the code over to Linux and been done a year ago. It really didn't help that mid-stream they got bought out Re: (Score:2) I'm assuming you weren't very close to the project, seeing as there is no QNX 5. Assuming the code was actually from QNX 4, I don't know why you expected it to be a simple recompile. QNX 6 was a completely new operating system rewritten from the ground up. Just imagine getting your old Mac OS9 programs to compile for OSX. You're right, I think it was QNX4. I try to distance myself from that project given how over budget and way past schedule they are, but I keep getting asked to help with basic problems like networking. They really got in over their heads with the assumption that they could just upgrade QNX. I think they were envisioning more of a Windows 2000 to XP kind of upgrade. It didn't help that vendors kept claiming they had drivers for the hardware - the team wasted lots of time re-writing and debugging drivers Why Not Android Already? (Score:2) If RIM is going to switch OSes, why wouldn't they go with Android? Cheaper to obtain and support, far larger app and developer base, easier to market it than "QNX? What's that?", bigger security community. RIM is just trying to protect its "different" status, despite the actual cost/benefit. Re: (Score:2) I have a feeling that they're following Palm down the long winding road of obsolescence. A Unix OS that isn't compatible with either of the two main players. Re: (Score:2) Because they're really really REALLY fucking stupid. That's why. Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) This argument shows up here all the time, and it's lame as hell. When Ford was doing alright, why didn't GM and Chrysler just sell CKD fords? They'd have done better, in the short term at least. When Apple came into the game, symbian was number one by a long long stretch. Why didn't they just paste an apple logo onto a Nokia phone? If you go to android, you're just another commodity manufacturer. You can make money that way, sure, but when you hit it right, with your own design, the thing prints money. That sa Re: (Score:2) QNX and Linux are _really_ different. QNX is a realtime OS for embedded applications, since as controlling car engines and factory equipment. This means that performance is extremely reliable (realtime OSs guarantee no glitching/slowdowns), it never crashes, and it runs efficiently on very limited hardware, on pretty much any CPU. For example, QNX is the OS running 200+ models of cars, in 20m+ cars on the road. It's proprietary and expensive, but for some applications you don't care about that as much as yo Re: (Score:2) If RIM is going to switch OSes, why wouldn't they go with Android? Maybe you guys suggesting RIM "just go android" are living in lala land? Why not just hand over the keys of the castle to Google and be done with it all? Re: (Score:2) If RIM is going to switch OSes, why wouldn't they go with Android? Yeah why not just do what everyone else is doing. far larger app and developer base Blackberry runtime for Android apps. They've already tapped into that community to a degree. Re: (Score:2) One fantastic reason is native executable code, however they are now too late to the game for it to make any difference. Re: (Score:2) I'm quite sure that the patents Microsoft owns are already needed by RIM (they most likely have a licensing agreement where they share patents). Switching OS's would make little difference on how much they have to pay Microsoft. Re: (Score:2) Comeback Kid (Score:3) It sure seems like RIM is thrashing around looking for a path forward. Apple seemed to suffer from the same thing, limping along with an OS that lacked basic features like memory protection and preemptive multitasking until 2001, but look at them now. Are RIM users loyal enough to wait out the problem years? Re:Comeback Kid (Score:4, Informative) Well... (Score:3) If, by some strange chance, the answer is yes, then yes, they should come flocking. Otherwise, their fortunes will likely continue to depend on how pleasant their systems are to develop for, and how many devices capable of running applications are in the hands of users interested in buying them... By all accounts, QNX is an accomplished OS; but it doesn't(in itself) solve the direst of problems with RIM's 3rd party dev efforts, which are not so much kernel limitations as user environment, dev tool, and API ones. If RIM can outperform its historical self in those areas, good for them. Otherwise, this "BBX" is going to offer the delightful choice of the same old blackberry crap, or Adobe Flash running like a wounded fainting goat [wikipedia.org] on some flavor of ARM SoC; but with a rock-solid foundation... Re: (Score:2) QNX Neutrino (Score:5, Interesting) Re: (Score:2) If properly utilized, I could see Blackberry overpowering all other mobile phone manufacturers. I have a feeling, based on this blog entry from an attempted Playbook developer [jamiemurai.com] that unfortunately it's not going to be "properly utilized". Re: (Score:2) QNX was a fast and fun OS when I ran it back around 2002/2003 but damn it was buggy and unstable mess, I could crash by playing a mp3 or make the file system do a little bit of work. It sucked on my desktop. Re: (Score:2) Funny. I would have said that QNX crashes often in 1988. Are their any QNX success stories? The issue with obscure operating systems is in the device driver support. If the project will take two to three years to develop, and be in the market for another five to ten years, then several different hardware platforms will be required. If you are not running an operating system that supports a wide range of hardware with pre-built drivers, then multiple different device drivers may be needed over the life of Re: (Score:2) Go check out a playbook, and prepare to be disappointed. They botched like a bunch of, well, hardware manufacturers who know nothing about software. Re: (Score:3) QNX is probably the best operating system ever. I think you forgot to insert the "Imma let you finish" part. Can you run Android on the new OS, BBX? (Score:2) Dear RIM (Score:2) The real news here, folks! (Score:2) You know what I find really interesting about this story? BlackBerry is trying to save their hide by moving their telephone O/S to a Unix variant. Now that iOS and Android are both Unix-derived, it's old hat, almost a given. But it was just a few years ago that it was understood that Unix was old, antiquated technology to be replaced by newer, sexier Windows/Mac systems. What a difference a decade makes! Linux has since come to dominate the server and engineering workstation spaces, MacOS has been reborn as Re:If it's not as closed as iOS/(locked down)Andro (Score:5, Interesting) Seems to me that that's really the only way to get in the game at this point--make things as easy as possible for developers. Free SDK, free publishing license, and higher payouts for devs. Hopefully RIM has learned a lot from these days [jamiemurai.com] (and if you read the followups, it looks like they're making an effort). Though I've never owned or really even used a Blackberry device, I do wish them well, just like I wish Microsoft well. I don't want the only players to be Google and Apple anymore than I wanted the only players to be RIM and Microsoft. We could use more honest competition in this space. Re:If it's not as closed as iOS/(locked down)Andro (Score:4, Insightful) Apple pays 70%. Suppose RIM were ultra generous and paid 100%. So long as I sell 43% more on the Apple platform, I'm still making more money. Put it another way, I'd have to sell 70% of my iPhone sales on the RIM before I made as much. Ain't going to happen. Re: (Score:2) That's assuming you develop apps that are exclusive to one or the other. What if RIM had compilation software that could read 90% of your iOS files untouched? 100% Pure Java (Score:2) What if RIM had compilation software that could read 90% of your iOS files untouched? That'd be a change. The last time I looked into BlackBerry, everything had to be in 100% Pure Java or in another language that compiles to JVM bytecode. And I don't think Objective-C is one of those languages. Re: (Score:2) Good point. To elaborate, people tend to own only one phone, so in terms of app sales each phone's market is a separate market, which you would independently decide whether to sell into. That is, you're not choosing either to sell into Apple or RIMs market, you're choosing each one independently. If you can sell enough to be profitable as an iOS app, you will do that, and (assuming you have the resources) if you can sell enough to be profitable as a RIM app, you will do that. And so on for each mobile OS. Th Re: (Score:2) There's a bit more to it. Sure, if your app is trivial, then adding another platform is a simple formula of cost vs profit. But, for any app with any real complexity, each platform you write a native app for increases your design complexity in a non-linear fashion. For example, if you have just one platform, adding a feature is a simple process of of writing that feature, testing (etc), and deploying. Now, if you have two, you need to write the feature twice, test it twice, and coordinate deployment across m Re: (Score:2) I'm assuming RIM isn't completely clueless and doesn't require developers to only give exclusive apps. Re: (Score:2) You can write Flex apps that are compatible with iOS, Android and Playbook all at once. Even if you don't like Air or Flex, you can use HTML5 for your iOS app and port to WebWorks for Playbook and BlackBerry. How much overhead per year? (Score:2) So long as I sell 43% more on the Apple platform, I'm still making more money. In the lower (that is, hobby and portfolio-building) sales bracket, that also depends on how much it costs to keep your developer certificate renewed. On iOS, that's an overhead of $250 per year: $100 per year for the iOS Developer Program and an estimated $600 for a new Mac every few years to run the new version of Xcode that is required to target new devices but isn't compatible with your older Mac. How much does RIM charge per year for access to the SDK, access to run homemade apps on a device, and publi Re: (Score:2) On iOS, that's an overhead of $250 per year: $100 per year for the iOS Developer Program and an estimated $600 for a new Mac every few years You do of course also have to replace a PC every few years if that's your development platform. Let's stick with like for like. The overhead is $99 per year for an iOS developer to get on the App Store. For Android it's $25 per year to get on the Google Android Market. And/or $99 per year to get on the Amazon store. Test devices are more expensive for iOS, but you won't need to buy as many. Re: (Score:2) Then perhaps I should charge the difference between the cheapest PC and the cheapest Mac. For example, compare a $1000 MacBook to an (admittedly heavier) $400 laptop running Windows. That's still $600 for a Mac. Hey if you're scratching around to save money, the MacMini is the cheapest Mac. $599. But really, if you're choosing your development platform based on what's cheapest, then you're destined for a pitiful life. If you're monetarily challenged, you're better off making a good app, and selling it on the more profitable platform, covering your costs and making a profit. Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) I haven't upgraded to Xcode 4.2 yet, but I fully expect to be running it on my 6 year old Macbook. 6 years old... October 18, 2005... first Intel MacBook in April 2006... I was under the impression that Xcode 4.2 required Snow Leopard [quora.com] and Snow Leopard required an Intel CPU. Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:3) "primarily BIS/BES services" Yeah, how's that working out for them? Re: (Score:2) RIM has no restrictions on how YOU sell your apps. You can put the files (.cod and .alx) on any webserver in the world and let people download & install your app. Unlike Apple, blackberry applications have never been a closed shop. A one stop shop results in more app sales. Now, the one best thing Apple did was to get your billing information FIRST so that Apple can bill your mobile account for apps. They don't bill it to a mobile account. Apple get a credit card number and charge apps, songs, movies, whatever to that. The Apple shills don't get it. (Score:2) The less roadblocks you have to development, the faster that cash comes in. Actually its all about customers ... (Score:3) The less roadblocks you have to development, the faster that cash comes in. Actually its the more customers you have. The hardware/platform that developers target is chosen by the customers, not the developer's convenience and preferences. That said, what roadblocks to develop for iOS? A Mac, a device and $99 a year to publish on the app store? To be honest that is an extremely low barrier to entry. 1250 USD is a lot of money (Score:3). For people living in countries with undervalued currencies compared to the USD [wikipedia.org], 1250 USD is a lot of money. And I haven't been able to find one way or another whether high school students under age 18 are eligible. Re: (Score:2) For students who have trouble paying for college, 1250 USD (Mac + iPT + certificate) is a lot of money. No its not, thats 3 weeks of working McDonalds. Before your training is complete, you can own a macbook and an iOS cert, add another week and you've paid for an iPhone too. For people living in countries with undervalued currencies compared to the USD [wikipedia.org], 1250 USD is a lot of money. And Windows PCs are free there? No, but you're pretending they are because 'everyone owns a PC'. A full Windows license alone is ~30-40% of the cost of the entire buyin for mac development. You're making up costs based on picking and choosing what you're paying for. No, Linux isn't a viable option to consider, you'll make exactly $0 a You don't need Windows to make apps (Score:4, Interesting) thats 3 weeks of working McDonalds. Which is impractical if you're already working McDonald's to afford tuition. And Windows PCs are free there? Neither are Linux PCs, but a Linux PC is a lot cheaper than a Mac. No, but you're pretending they are because 'everyone owns a PC'. The installed base is such that one is far more likely to own a Windows PC than a Mac. Perhaps I should multiply the expected [wikipedia.org] Mac buy-in by 90% to reflect the 10% chance of already owning a Mac. A full Windows license alone is ~30-40% of the cost of the entire buyin for mac development. You don't need Windows to develop for certain popular platforms that compete with iOS. Anyone under 18 can't enter legally binding contracts in any sane part of the world I don't know about BlackBerry, but if you own a device running Android OS, you don't need to enter a legally binding contract before you're allowed to load homemade programs onto it. This is one of the differences between Android and iOS. Actually $800, then subtract student discounts (Score:2). Actually its $800 in hardware (mini + touch) and that is regular retail prices. Students are able to get significant discounts. ...and add a certificate . Plan on renewals for years 2, 3, and 4, and we're close to the $1250 mark that I quoted. Do students get a discount on certificates too? Re: . Yes, thats why I mentioned $99 a year to publish in the first post and specifically pointed out that the $800 was in reference to hardware in the second post. Plan on renewals for years 2, 3, and 4, and we're close to the $1250 mark that I quoted. Do students get a discount on certificates too? And now factor in that the students can sell their apps. Something that was *far* more difficult to do in the not so distant pass. Apple also lowered the barrier to reaching a large consumer market. Re: (Score:3) And now factor in that the students can sell their apps. Something that was *far* more difficult to do in the not so distant pass. Apple also lowered the barrier to reaching a large consumer market. Apple took the first step; Google took the next step by lowering it further. Re: (Score:2, Interesting) The less roadblocks you have to development, the faster that cash comes in. Apple are resting on their laurels. They've done good and have come out of nowhere to dominate the market ... but Android is still outselling them. Wow. 4 million iPhone 4S sold .. who's willing to bet that will be a significant number of the total sales? If Apple had complete faith in their product they wouldn't be trying to hamstring Samsung and Android. iPhones and iPads are cool and sexy today, that's no guarantee of future success. Ask Sony/Ericsson and Nokia, both headed for the bin heap of commodi Re: (Score:2) Wow. 4 million iPhone 4S sold .. who's willing to bet that will be a significant number of the total sales? Considering that Apple sold over 13 million of the old iPhones in just the last three months, I'll take that bet If Apple had complete faith in their product they wouldn't be trying to hamstring Samsung and Android. Absolutely. Because when you have complete faith in your product, you don't care if someone tries to rip it off. It's times like this I wish Slashdot had a :rolleyes: emoticon. ------RM Re: (Score:2) Yes, because a profit seeking entity making 66% of all mobile phone profit worldwide is "failing". [asymco.com] And before you reply with the usual slashdot retort about de Re: (Score:2) Wow. What reality are you in? It sure isn't this one! You have no clue at all. Android devices are doing remarkably well, and I welcome that, but my goodness you're wide of the mark on Apple's prospects and endeavour. Re: (Score:2) In a fantasy, sure. Reality is never so simplistic and it makes you look ignorant to suggest that it is. I've written my own OS and apps for it, there are 0 road blocks in my way ... and not surprisingly, 0 income from it. Somebody else can do all the work and hand you an absolutely flawless piece of perfectly functioning software and it still won't sell if no one wants it or it runs on a device that no one owns. You can put all sorts of road blocks in front of me and it'll still be more profitable than no ro Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) You have no clue. What developers care most about is how much profit is there to make. RIM builds a failing platform, and an acquisition won't change that, nor does your 'openness' - the only thing who can change that are consumers, and they care about UX, not features. But give it one thing that it does well, that people like and they remain with a seat in the big game. Otherwise they are as doomed as Nokia. Re: (Score:3) I agree that what developers (companies, not always individuals) care most about is being able to make a profit on their investment. And on that front iOS wins, because they provide the best app store, and have trained millions of users to pay for software. This is as distinct from the Android store, which is not as good, and which sells far less software per person. But a close second (first for many individuals) is how easy it is to write software for the platform. As an extreme example, iOS is very easy to source request... (Score:3) I have heard this 1% > $1000 several times, although I have yet to hear a reputable source for this statistic. Apple doesn't give out such stats, at least as far as I can tell. Who provides this metric? Competitors marketing slides don't count. Re: (Score:2)

Why Your Mindset Is What It Is…And What You Can Do About It! In 1998, I went on my first and only blind date. I had been resisting it for 3 months, but the mutual friend who set up the date was persistent, to say the least. Blind dates! How . . . Pitiful! Is this what my life had come to? I was so judgmental about the whole concept, but the truth was that my resistance was because this woman sounded like someone I could easily be interested in. The last thing I wanted was a serious relationship. I had been married (didn’t work out so well) and swore I’d never do it again! I walked into a little outdoor café for the 1-hour pre-arranged cup of coffee with the obligatory hard-stop. Of course, I had created another appointment to make sure I had an excuse to leave. And there sat a beautiful, intelligent and very direct 40-year old woman. The conversation was quick. “Are you Charlsa?” She nodded, “You’re David?” I nodded and took a seat across from her. After the briefest awkward pause, she looked at me and blurted out, “So, what’s your story?” I cracked up. I loved her directness. And ended up loving her. As my wife would say, “What’s your story?” That really is the purpose of this entire course. We want to tell our stories, convince people to buy our products and create a community around both. Whether you’re a writer, a business person, an athletic trainer, a hobbyist, a realtor, or someone who wants to escape the life you’ve built so far, you’ve got to have a story. And that story is your experience. It’s your wisdom. It’s an asset! Introductions are in order. Hi, I’m David Perdew. But you know that already. I have a long and checkered history. If you want the resume version, I’ll post it later. But the bullets are: - Born: New Castle, IN., 1952, in a loving but flawed working class family (aren’t they all?) - Lived there till I was 18 when I joined the Air Force - Married when I was 19 - Three children (all over 30 — Good Lord, how did I get so old!) - Graduated from Indiana University in Journalism in 1978 - Divorced 1984 - Worked in the newspaper business as a photo editor, magazine editor and copy editor until 1989. Left the Atlanta Journal & Constitution in 1989 as Director of Photography - Started my stock photography agency in 1989 - Married again in 1990 - Sold stock agency in 1995 - Divorced again in 1996 - Changed careers to information technology in 1996 as a programmer - Became a project manager / consultant in 1997 - Sold my car and bought a 1997 Harley Davidson in 1997 as my only mode of transportation for two years - Married again in 1998 - Spent 20 years as a successful independent corporate consultant Ok, there’s my life boiled down to 16 facts — but that’s only part of my story. Here’s my story A big part of my story is about money. It’s the measure of success in this country. I was sucked into that vortex for years. The larger my checkbook balance, the better I felt. If it was close to (or God forbid – below) zero, I went into a depression. Not because I had money problems, but because my self-worth was tied directly to the number of zeros following the number 1. It was insane. And it finally took me the only place it could – all the way to the bottom. The bullet that says “Divorced again in 1996” is directly tied to that bottom. My beliefs about money were driving my life. My mindset was my biggest struggle. That’s why I think it SO important to focus on our mindset from the start. We’ll attack those beliefs – mine and yours – in a later section today. Here’s the blessing in that crash: There’s an unexpected freedom at the bottom. It becomes a reference point never to be forgotten for the rest of your life. It becomes a touchstone for gratitude. When times are rough, I tell myself, “Whew, I’m so grateful I’m not there any longer.” And I know that I never have to go back. But I also know that no matter how difficult things get, I can survive. That’s a great discovery! Much of the fear that drove my life lessened, if not disappeared. Fear of loss, fear of not being enough, fear of disappointing others – all became my reality, no longer imagined. I experienced loss, not being enough and truly disappointed many others. And there’s such freedom in knowing that from the bottom you can only go up! The greater gift is knowing that you get to choose your bottom. You don’t have to be penniless and homeless like I had become. You can say that from today forward, I’ll go no lower. I accept responsibility for my life. The key to an incredible mindset – and business – is personal responsibility! My life is a pure gift that has continually improved since 1995. Astounding things have happened. Great miracles and wonderful opportunities. Sounds like I’ve got it licked now? Not by a long shot, but I do have a perspective on my life that is huge and that I’m very comfortable with. I haven’t had a real paycheck since 1989. A paycheck is a trap. It makes you think the world will protect and save you. Nothing could be further from the truth. As Joe Vitale says in The Attractor Factor (go ahead and buy the book – I’ll reference it a gazillion times): “The hardest concept for most people to grasp is that they are the sole reason they are experiencing whatever they have in their lives. They are totally responsible.” Whew! He didn’t say partially responsible. He didn’t say one of the reasons. Don’t look around. He’s talking to you. He said you are responsible for whatever you have in your life. Yes but . . . Stop right there. This is a key concept. That’s what every bottom-dweller learns, or they stay on the bottom. I am responsible for changing my life. No one else is. And I can only change one life – mine. Not my wife’s, my son’s, my parents’ or my boss’s. Changing my life is my business. It’s my job and it’s my only job. MyNAMS training is built around this concept. Memorize it! Cut it out and put it on your refrigerator. This web business stuff is not easy. It’s simple. But not easy. Don’t let anyone kid you. Without persistence, nothing will happen. This is a business and must be treated like a new business. That’s what the entire MyNAMS Step-by-Step training is all about: Helping you move from beginner to advanced online business person. We’ll be thorough, sometimes too thorough. The structure of this course is such that you can attack any topic at anytime, but we really encourage you to go through it methodically from start to finish. Now, tell me who you are Go to the forums and introduce yourself if you haven’t already. If you’ve given us the facts, we want more. - What do you do? - Who do you love? - What’s important to you? - Where do you live? (Not looking for a street address, just a part of the world ) - What do you want from this course? I loved reading your story. I relate to it so much. Firstly, thank you for taking my call a few weeks ago. The fact that I could call you directly and you answered… wow, I can’t tell you how cool that was. As we discussed, I wanted to join MyNAMS.com, but needed some direction. I was also hoping to get the lifetime membership I missed out on… doesn’t hurt to ask, right? Well, I joined MN and signed up to a bunch of free things and started getting emails… tons of emails. I was completely overwhelmed! I can’t tell how excited I am about the Dashboard. It’s exactly what I need… an easy-to-navigate step-by-step course. Thank you soooo much! I too am a journalist, now working as a consultant. Specifically, I was a magazine editor who had a very successful career. But I found myself longing to do more, be an entrepreneur, which lead me to an awful experience that became my bottom. Once I extricated myself for the situation, and took back my life, I entered a year-long journey of self discovery that lead me to launch my blog. I’m clear that everything that happens in life is a lesson, whether it be a good or hurtful experience. As difficult as it was to go through the fire, today I live an more grounded and grateful life. My income is 25% of what it used to be but I’m 100% happier. I’m having fun not taking life too seriously and appreciate every moment of every day. All of which has lead me to launching. My blog has enriched my relationship with my mother… and my waistline. I’m excited about taking it to the next level. Thank you for being part of my journey. Angela Lawrence Angela – thanks for telling us your background. These are amazing times we live in I’ve been out of journalism – officially – since 1989, but I really believe all those skills are absolutely crucial to doing what we do online today. I think you’ve got a big advantage having that in your history. And I loved talking to you about your partnership with your mother on your site. Great concept…Look forward to seeing you in Atlanta at the workshop (if you can make it…) Just finished reading your story. Amazingly, much like mine. Made me cry. I guess I’ve found the right place Love it. Glad you found us Bonnie… Didn’t know it was such a touching story, but I just tell it like I see it I’m a blessed man. I relate to alot of your story and look forward to one day meeting face to face and maybe breaking a little bread with you. Not this February workshop but the next. I’m making it one of my goal’s. I won’t post my personal travails here because they are very personal and hurtful to some extent. A lot of stuff that I am still working through with the help of my shrink. I am almost 70 years old and it was not until recently that I found the courage to get the help I needed. I was raised in a culture where men stand on their own, even if they haven’t the feet to do so, if you get my drift. Just like with NAMS, I had not had the sense to get help with my marketing. Instead I kept banging my head against the wall all by myself, following WSO’s and other products I could afford. What a waste of time and effort! I could be so far ahead of where I am and not be in the situations I find myself in now. Oh well, can’t change history, I’ll just have to deal with my issues the best I can and keep moving forward, no matter what. At least now I’m feeling a little more confident of my future outcome. I first joined NAMS on Nov 1 but due to some unexpected medical issues I had not had the chance to get into any of the material here. Now that I’m here I can’t believe the volume of material on this site. I am really looking forward to begin making some progress now that I am a member here. Thanks for having the HEART to create such a place. Thanks, Alex Alex – you’re very welcome and I hope you dig in as much as you can. About our travails in life: I always say it takes what it takes to get us where we are. And sometimes that’s a lot of stumbles along the way. Like you’ve discovered, the best way to avoid most of that is to ask for help! And that’s a really hard thing for those of us in our “mature” state… Welcome again. David Hi David, Thank you for taking the time to create this page and for telling your story. I can relate in many ways. But here’s just a few … I’m currently studying copywriting with Karon Thackston. Originally I was a nuclear med tech for 35 years. I love nature and the outdoors, used to bike and run for charities. And since I was in three radiology modalities, photography has always been part of my life with extra courses in college. I’ve had several painful life experiences, but in the last few years I’ve been able to take the charge off the emotional side effects … and switch off the bad thoughts in the process. Earlier in my life, that type of help wasn’t available. What was available didn’t help. Like you, my belief is that we are definitely in charge of what happens in our own lives. It was just the “how to change it” that had me stuck. I love Dr. Joe, and also Centerpointe. Knowing something mentally and then actually believing it and acting on it are two different things … and trusting the Guidance we receive every day. What’s important to me is to leave my affairs in order and that means making money now. I wanted what I call a “retirement career” using my writing skills productively, so I went back to college and took journalism. After another decade of life stuff including a family tragedy, I’m starting again. I keep reminding God that I’m not Methuselah, and he keeps giving me opportunities and blessings with incentives to just keep on keepin’ on … hence, I was directed to NAMS via Karon. I live in the midwest with a shelter dog and a 32-year old parrot adapting to ever-changing weather conditions–which is why I do my focus work late at night … for now. What I need from this course is exactly what you offer: structure and direction. But you offer so much more. I’ m flabbergasted (is that a real word?). Anyway, I’m grateful for all of it. Blessings, Patricia P.S. I look forward to meeting you and the terrific NAMS team (have read some blogs) in near future. Thanks Patricia. I’m with you on the retirement career But I don’t feel very retired these days… Of course, I’ve got a couple more years before I want to fully retire – whatever that means – anyway… WOW! What an eye opener. Glad you liked it Dino We try to keep your eyes open all the time… Wow we are the same age, guess there is hope for me to make it in the internet world. Just finished reading and am looking forward to devouring all of the NAMS training. Bill Hi! I am just beginning my journey up from the bottom and am so excited to be here and learning from somone like you. Reading your story was so very inspitiational. I, too have found all the bumps in the road and knew that there had to be a better way. I have a wonderful friend that gifted me with my membership to MyNAMS and I am now finding that it is the gift that keeps on giving. My journey is now looking like quite an adventure. Thank you! Not as excited as we are to have you here. New people who have a goal and drive to execute it are the lifeblood of our program. And frankly, the most fun. Watching people succeed is awesome. Make sure you go to the forum and introduce yourself. You’ll find lots of folks there who will help. I spent a good part of a year studying programs and building a website. So many pieces to the puzzle and so many products that don’t deliver or are to hard to understand. I stepped away from the whole thing for the good part of another year after blogging my heart out and marketing and getting few results… Here I am again. Ready to get it done because I want this!! Great post – I’m excited to meet everyone. David, I am touched by this post and your sharing so much of yourself. I’m embarrassed to say that I’m only just digging into these Dashboard modules (on the plane en route to NAMS). So much of my entrepreneurial experience in the last three years has been backwards. I got excited about social media long before I had anything to promote or sell. I’ve learned so much from so many people, but it’s time for me to put it all together. Let the new leg of my journey begin. Personally, in the spirit of sharing, I have been so, so fortunate in my life and marriage – John and I celebrated out 40th in October and he’s still the person I’d rather be with than anyone in the world. We have two amazing grown children who are not only happily married and employed, but doing things that make a difference in the world. I trained to be an anatomist but took another route as wife, mother, and community activist. No regrets there. But now that the kids are out of the nest, and my retired husband is good at staying busy on his own, I have an entrepreneurial itch I haven’t scratched yet. At this stage in my life, I’m not looking to be rich and famous, but I should would like to earn enough to pay for a fabulous vacation every year. Should I have posted all this in the forum? If so, let me know and I’ll copy and paste. I work in construction. A decent living, stay busy, bring home a paycheck weekly. Not exactly head over heels inspired by that, nor as physically capable as I once was, so I have been exploring options. Affiliate marketing seemed to hit all of my personal criteria buttons for a viable “retirement career” , but until now I have been stumble-bumbling along, as a green newbie. Thanks to Kaya Singer for introducing me to NAMS and you, David. Now, I have to say, your excellent website seems a bit overwhelming , so I can see myself struggling a bit to stay focused, but it certainly has me chomping at the bit to actually see RESULTS from my efforts. I’m ready to dive in! Excellent Jeff – you’re only scratching the surface of this site. But I’m so glad that you’re digging in here with this series. You’ll see a bunch of tools, training and community opportunities to help you when you need it. Thanks for being here. I’ve been a member since October, but I’m just now really getting started. My youngest was born with medical disabilities but it was December of 2011 before we learned that my oldest has a few medical challenges herself. I spent the months of November and December of 2012 (1 year later) getting her prepared for surgery (Christmas eve, of course!) and getting myself prepared for the $16,000 medication expense (not including the anesthesiologist, surgeon, hospital, etc). I lost my job at the beginning of December, but it took me until February to make the decision (no regrets) to pursue my passion (working for myself, traveling with my daughters), and until now to get back to MyNAMS. I’m sorry I missed the February session (no babysitter), but can’t (currently) afford the August one – unless I get my butt in gear and get to making things happen. I’m disappointed that I’m starting 5 months after I joined, but it is what it is – and the BEST thing I can do is move forward, and not look back. Here goes…

United States Court of Federal Claims. LUMMI TRIBE OF THE LUMMI RESERVATION, Lummi Nation Housing Authority, Fort Peck Housing Authority, Fort Berthold Housing Authority, and Hopi Tribal Housing Authority, Plaintiffs, v. The UNITED STATES, Defendant. No. 08–848C. Aug. 21, 2012. SUPPLEMENTARY OPINION *1 This case arises under the Native American Housing Assistance and Self–Determination Act of 1996 (“NAHASDA” or “the statute”), as amended, 25 U.S.C. §§ 4101–4212 (2006). Plaintiffs sue here to recover grant funds originally paid to them under that statute, but later recaptured by the Department of Housing and Urban Development (“HUD” or “the agency”) when HUD determined that the allocation formula on which the grants had been based had been misapplied. Defendant has moved to dismiss count two of plaintiffs' second amended complaint—a count alleging that HUD's recapture of grant funds without conducting a compliance hearing constituted an illegal exaction—on the ground that the recapture was lawfully accomplished despite the absence of such a hearing.FN1 The court heard oral argument on June 19, 2012. Because we conclude that HUD failed to follow the applicable procedures in recapturing plaintiffs' grant funds, defendant's motion to dismiss is denied. FN1. In an earlier round of litigation in this case, defendant moved to dismiss plaintiffs' entire complaint, arguing, inter alia, that: (i) NAHASDA is not a money-mandating statute and therefore does not confer jurisdiction on this court; (ii) the Anti–Deficiency Act, 31 U.S.C. § 1341(a)(1)(A), precludes this court from awarding the relief sought; and (iii) plaintiffs' claims are barred by the statute of limitations, 28 U.S.C. § 2501. In an opinion issued on August 4, 2011, we rejected defendant's first two arguments, ruling that NAHASDA is indeed a money-mandating statute whose implementing regulations may be challenged by plaintiffs in this court, and that the Anti–Deficiency Act does not prevent the court from awarding the requested relief (a conclusion that was later confirmed by the Federal Circuit in Samish Indian Nation v. United States, 657 F.3d 1330, 1339 (Fed.Cir.2011)). Lummi Tribe of the Lummi Reservation v. United States, 99 Fed. Cl. 584, 597, 605 (2011). We accepted defendant's third argument, however, and accordingly dismissed plaintiffs' claims for grant funds relating to fiscal years 1998 through 2002 as having accrued more than six years before plaintiffs' November 26, 2008, filing of suit in this court and thus as barred by the statute of limitations. Id. at 607. We additionally dismissed that aspect of plaintiffs' complaint—count two—challenging HUD's recapture of grant funds without conducting a compliance hearing, on the ground that any failure to do so was not prejudicial. Id. at 599. Plaintiffs moved for reconsideration of the court's decision. Following a hearing on the matter, the court issued an order on September 29, 2011, vacating that portion of our August 4, 2011, decision dismissing plaintiffs' second claim for relief (the claim challenging HUD's recapture of grant funds in the absence of a compliance hearing). Pursuant to the court's order, plaintiffs filed a second amended complaint on October 28, 2011, containing a revised second claim for relief in which they again challenge HUD's recapture of grant funds without conducting a compliance hearing. That revised second claim for relief is the subject of defendant's current motion to dismiss. FACTS FN2 FN2. We limit our discussion to those facts relevant to plaintiffs' revised second claim for relief; a more comprehensive recitation of the facts can be found in our earlier decision. Lummi Tribe of the Lummi Reservation v. United States, 99 Fed. Cl. 584, 587–90 (2011). The statute at issue in this case, NAHASDA, directs the Secretary of HUD to provide annual grants to Indian tribes or tribal housing authorities in support of their need for affordable housing. The distribution of these funds is accomplished through a formula, set forth at 24 C.F.R. §§ 1000.301–1000.340, that determines the amount each grant recipient is to receive based in part on the recipient's Formula Current Assisted Stock (“FCAS”)—the inventory of rental units and lease-to-own units owned by the recipient as of September 30, 1997, the effective date of NAHASDA. Plaintiffs have received NAHASDA grants annually since 1998. In 2001, however, HUD's Office of Inspector General (“OIG”) performed a nationwide audit of the NAHASDA program. The resulting report concluded that HUD had improperly administered the grant program by failing to exclude from the grant calculation housing units that no longer qualified as FCAS under the relevant regulations. In particular, the report criticized HUD for failing to enforce 24 C.F.R. § 1000.318, a regulation specifying that housing units are to be excluded from FCAS “when the Indian tribe ... no longer has the legal right to own, operate, or maintain the unit” so long as such units are conveyed “as soon as practicable after a unit becomes eligible for conveyance.” The OIG recommended that HUD audit all housing units included in the allocation formula, remove ineligible units, recover funding from grant recipients that had received overpayments based on ineligible FCAS, and reallocate the recovery to other NAHASDA grant recipients that had been underfunded. *2 HUD accordingly notified a number of Indian tribes and tribal housing authorities (including all of the plaintiffs in this action) that the agency intended to recover overpaid grant funds from them. Toward this end, HUD provided plaintiffs with the applicable regulations, the guidelines explaining those regulations, and a list of the specific housing units that HUD regarded as ineligible for grant purposes. HUD additionally invited plaintiffs to review HUD's data and to supply any information that would establish the continuing eligibility of the challenged units as qualifying housing stock. HUD did not, however, conduct formal hearings on this issue. HUD ultimately determined that since November 26, 2002,FN3 the Lummi Tribe had received $863,236 in overpayments, the Fort Berthold Housing Authority had received $249,689 in overpayments, and the Hopi Tribal Housing Authority had received $964,699 in overpayments as a result of the inclusion of ineligible FCAS in the allocation formula.FN4 Of these amounts, HUD has recaptured the entire overpayment from the Hopi Tribal Housing Authority and all but $14,029 from the Lummi Tribe and $125,399 from the Fort Berthold Housing Authority, through the offset of overpayments against underpayments and through the reduction of subsequent years' grants. Recovery of the outstanding overpayments has been identified as on hold pending the outcome of this litigation. FN3. Pursuant to our earlier ruling on the statute of limitations, claims arising from overpayments recaptured more than six years before the November 26, 2008, filing of plaintiffs' complaint in this court are out of time. FN4. In addition to the overpayments received by plaintiffs, HUD determined that the misapplication of the grant allocation formula had also resulted in certain underpayments to plaintiffs, specifically an underpayment of $102,312 to the Lummi Tribe, $91,921 to the Fort Berthold Housing Authority, and $381,868 to the Hopi Tribal Housing Authority. These amounts were later offset against outstanding overpayments. DISCUSSION I. In count two of their second amended complaint, plaintiffs assert that HUD's recapture of overpaid grant funds through the reduction of subsequent years' grants was accomplished without legal authority and therefore amounts to an illegal exaction. Aerolineas Argentinas v. United States, 77 F.3d 1564, 1572–73 (Fed.Cir.1996) (recognizing that an illegal exaction claim may be heard in this court where a plaintiff alleges that it “ ‘paid money over to the Government, directly or in effect, and seeks return of all or part of that sum’ that ‘was improperly paid, exacted, or taken from the claimant in contravention of the Constitution, a statute, or a regulation’ ”) (quoting Eastport S.S. Corp. v. United States, 372 F.2d 1002, 1007 (Ct.Cl.1967)). Plaintiffs maintain that the exaction at issue was the direct result of a misapplication of law—specifically HUD's failure to abide by the terms of NAHASDA in recapturing plaintiffs' grant funds—and that the remedy for such violation is a return of the money unlawfully exacted. Pennoni v. United States, 79 Fed. Cl. 552, 561 (2007). Defendant has moved to dismiss count two on the ground that HUD acted properly in recapturing those funds. At the heart of defendant's motion, then, is a single question: Is HUD permitted to recover grant funds through an administrative offset, without following the procedures set forth in NAHASDA, once those grant funds have been disbursed and expended on affordable housing activities? In plaintiffs' view, the answer is no. Plaintiffs argue that Title IV of NAHASDA, 25 U.S.C. §§ 4161–4168, provides a comprehensive and exclusive scheme for the administration of grant funds and that Congress, by setting forth the remedies available to HUD under this title, expressed its intention to bar all other remedies. Alexander v. Sandoval, 532 U.S. 275, 290 (2001) (observing that “[t]he express provision of one method of enforcing a substantive rule suggests that Congress intended to preclude others”); Transamerica Mortg. Advisors, Inc. v. Lewis, 444 U.S. 11, 19 (1979) (recognizing that “[i]t is an elemental canon of statutory construction that where a statute expressly provides a particular remedy or remedies, a court must be chary of reading others into it.”); American Bus Ass'n v. Slater, 231 F.3d 1, 4 (D.C.Cir.2000) (concluding that a statute's enumerated remedies reveal Congress's unambiguous intent that such remedies be exclusive). In particular, plaintiffs maintain that NAHASDA authorizes HUD to recapture an overpayment of grant funds in one of only two ways: either by reducing payments to a grant recipient as indicated in Section 401 of NAHASDA (codified at 25 U.S.C. § 4161), or by adjusting the amount of a grant as indicated in Section 405 of NAHASDA (codified at 25 U.S.C. § 4165). Plaintiffs maintain, however, that under either section, HUD is required to satisfy the notice and hearing provisions of 24 C.F.R. § § 1000.532 and 1000.540, and may recover grant funds only if the agency determines that a grant recipient has failed to comply substantially with some provision of NAHASDA and has not already expended the grant funds on affordable housing activities in accordance with the statute. Absent the satisfaction of these conditions—which the parties agree did not occur here—plaintiffs contend that HUD's recovery of grant funds is devoid of legal authority and therefore amounts to an illegal exaction. *3 Plaintiffs' argument begins with Section 401 of NAHASDA, a provision that, by the terms of its title, sets forth HUD's “Remedies for noncompliance.” Section 401(a) provides in relevant part as follows: Except as provided in subsection (b) of this section [involving substantial noncompliance resulting from the technical incapacity of a grant recipient],;.... 25 U.S.C. § 4161(a). Although the statute does not define when noncompliance is substantial, HUD has done so in NAHASDA's implementing regulations as follows: HUD will review the circumstances of each noncompliance with NAHASDA and the regulations on a case-by-case basis to determine if the noncompliance is substantial. This review is a two step process. First, there must be a noncompliance with NAHASDA or these regulations. Second, the noncompliance must be substantial. A noncompliance is substantial if: (a) The noncompliance has a material effect on the recipient meeting its major goals and objectives as described in its Indian Housing Plan; (b) The noncompliance represents a material pattern or practice of activities constituting willful noncompliance with a particular provision of NAHASDA or the regulations, even if a single instance of noncompliance would not be substantial; (c) The noncompliance involves the obligation or expenditure of a material amount of the NAHASDA funds budgeted by the recipient for a material activity; or (d) The noncompliance places the housing program at substantial risk of fraud, waste or abuse. In plaintiffs' view, HUD may not take action under Section 401 until it finds, on the basis of a hearing, that a grant recipient has failed to comply substantially with some provision of NAHASDA or its regulations, in this case with 24 C.F.R. § 1000.318 (the regulation outlining the appropriate treatment of FCAS). In addition, plaintiffs read Section 401 as limiting the recovery of grant funds to “the amount of such payments that were not expended in accordance with this chapter.” That limitation, plaintiffs argue, prohibits HUD from recapturing grant funds that have been expended on eligible, affordable housing activities, defined in Section 202 of NAHASDA as activities “to develop, operate, maintain, or support affordable housing for rental or homeownership, or to provide housing services with respect to affordable housing.” 25 U.S.C. § 4132. Plaintiffs thus maintain that HUD's recapture of their grant funds was not authorized under Section 401 because HUD: (1) failed to provide them with an opportunity for a hearing; (2) made no finding that they had “failed to comply substantially” with 24 C.F.R. § 1000.318 (or any other provision of NAHASDA); and (3) recaptured, through the offset of subsequent years' grants, payments that had already been spent “in accordance with” NAHASDA. *4 Nor, plaintiffs argue, did HUD satisfy the terms of Section 405, the only other NAHASDA provision addressing the adjustment of grant funds. Section 405, titled “Review and audit by Secretary,” authorizes HUD to conduct reviews and audits to determine whether a grant recipient is carrying out eligible activities in a timely manner and in compliance with its housing plan. 25 U.S.C. § 4165. Section 405 sets out the remedies HUD may pursue following such an audit as follows:. 25 U.S.C. § 4165(d). Plaintiffs point out, however, that HUD's authority to adjust grants under Section 405 is “[s]ubject to section 4161(a),” a phrase plaintiffs interpret as imposing the same requirements found in Section 401—specifically the notice, hearing, and substantial noncompliance requirements—as a precondition to action under Section 405. Just as with Section 401, in other words, plaintiffs read Section 405 as authorizing HUD to adjust grant amounts only after the agency has provided a grant recipient with notice and the opportunity for a hearing and has found the recipient to be in substantial noncompliance with NAHASDA. The adjustment of grants under Section 405 is further limited, plaintiffs argue, by 24 C.F.R. § 1000.532, a regulation promulgated as part of the first negotiated rulemaking following the enactment of NAHASDA. 63 Fed.Reg. 12334, 12371 (Mar. 12, 1998). That regulation, in plaintiffs' view, requires HUD to provide the opportunity for a hearing whenever the agency adjusts a grant amount after an audit under Section 405 and explicitly prohibits the recapture of NAHASDA funds that have been expended on affordable housing activities. Section 1000.532, titled “What are the adjustments HUD makes to a recipient's future year's grant amount under section 405 of NAHASDA?,” reads in relevant part as follows: . FN5. 24 C.F.R. § 1000.540, a regulation cited by plaintiffs in support of their claim, in turn directs HUD to employ the hearing procedures set forth in 24 C.F.R. Part 26 when conducting a hearing under NAHASDA. See, e.g., 24 C.F.R. § 26.2 (requiring an Administrative Law Judge to serve as the hearing officer); 24 C.F.R. § 26.46 (anticipating the calling of witnesses). That regulation, however, sets forth the procedures to be followed if a hearing is required, but does not address the question of when a hearing is required in the first instance. Plaintiffs thus argue that HUD, whether acting under Section 401 or Section 405,FN6 must provide a grant recipient with notice and the opportunity for a hearing, and may adjust grant funds only if the agency has determined that the grant recipient is in substantial noncompliance with NAHASDA and, even then, only if the funds to be recaptured were misspent by the grant recipient, i.e., “not expended in accordance with” NAHASDA.FN7 Sections 401 and 405, in other words, do not allow HUD to recapture NAHASDA funds that are improvidently allocated by HUD, but spent by a grant recipient in accordance with the statute. Actions taken outside of this framework, plaintiffs maintain, go beyond HUD's delegated authority and consequently amount to an illegal exaction. FN6. Plaintiffs indicated at oral argument that they believe that Section 405 is the applicable section in this case because HUD acted pursuant to an audit conducted at the direction of HUD's Office of Inspector General to determine whether grant recipients had included ineligible housing units in the information they had provided to HUD. The question of whether HUD should have proceeded under Section 401 or Section 405, however, does not alter plaintiffs' analysis, given plaintiffs' position that Section 405 contains the same notice, hearing, and substantial noncompliance requirements as Section 401. Under either section, plaintiffs maintain, HUD failed to meet the criteria for retroactively adjusting plaintiffs' grant funds. FN7. The record at present contains no evidence as to whether the grant funds in question were “expended in accordance with” NAHASDA; such an issue, plaintiffs maintain, is precisely one that would have been addressed in a hearing conducted under Section 401 or 405. Defendant, for its part, rejects plaintiffs' characterization of their claim. In defendant's view, the misallocation of grant funds is not an issue of a grant recipient's compliance with NAHASDA that should be addressed under Title IV (Sections 401 and 405), but rather of HUD's own failure to comply with the statute, specifically with the agency's obligation to pay grant recipients in accordance with the formula established by negotiated rulemaking as set forth in Title III, 25 U.S.C. § 4151.FN8 HUD's recovery of grant overpayments, in other words, was an action the agency took to address HUD's own noncompliance with NAHASDA, and accordingly involved none of the enforcement provisions set out in Sections 401 and 405. FN8. 25 U.S.C. § 4151, titled “Annual allocation,” provides as follows:. Indeed, defendant maintains that Sections 401 and 405 do not, by their terms, apply in the instant case at all. In defendant's view, Section 401 is directed toward one specific situation: where a grant recipient has engaged in substantial noncompliance with NAHASDA. Defendant argues, however, that the action that gave rise to the overpayments here—the inclusion of ineligible FCAS in the allocation formula in violation of 24 C.F.R. § 1000.318—is not considered a compliance issue, but is treated instead as a data error.FN9 In other words, defendant argues, plaintiffs are not believed to be in substantial noncompliance with NAHASDA and their case therefore does not fall within the notice and hearing requirements of Section 401.FN10 FN9. Defendant's position is consistent with the approach HUD took in recovering the overpaid grant funds. The record indicates that HUD considered the inclusion of ineligible FCAS to be analogous to a data error and therefore used as its guide the challenge and appeal procedures set forth in 24 C.F.R. § 1000.336 (dealing with data errors) in recovering the overpaid grant funds. Notably, 24 C.F.R. § 1000.336 was later amended through a four-year, consensus rulemaking process to include FCAS challenges as an issue to be addressed under that regulation. 72 Fed.Reg. 20018, 20025–26 (Apr. 20, 2007); 24 C.F.R. § 1000.336(a)(4) ( “An Indian tribe, [Tribally Designated Housing Entity], or HUD may challenge data used in the [Indian Housing Block Grant] Formula and HUD formula determinations regarding: ... (4) Formula Current Assisted Stock (FCAS)....) FN10. Plaintiffs do not contend that they were in substantial noncompliance with NAHASDA or its regulations; rather, they take the position that grant funds may not be adjusted retroactively under NAHASDA in the absence of substantial noncompliance. Similarly, defendant interprets Section 405 as applying only to: (1) audits under chapter 75 of title 31 of the United States Code (examining issues such as whether the financial statements of the audited entity have been prepared in accordance with generally accepted accounting principles); and (2) reviews and audits by HUD to determine whether the grant recipient has carried out eligible activities, has a continuing capacity to carry out eligible activities in a timely manner, and is in compliance with the Indian housing plan submitted pursuant to 25 U.S.C. § 4112. In defendant's view, however, HUD has not performed a review or audit that meets either criterion, making Section 405—and its accompanying regulation, 24 C.F.R. § 1000.532—inapplicable to this dispute. *6 Nor, defendant argues, are plaintiffs correct that Section 405 contains the same notice, hearing, and substantial noncompliance requirements as Section 401. In defendant's view, Section 405's introductory phrase “[s]ubject to section 4161(a)” does not—as plaintiffs contend—import Section 401's requirements into Section 405, but rather excludes from the scope of Section 405 cases that fall under Section 401, i.e., cases involving substantial noncompliance. Defendant thus maintains that the Secretary of HUD may exercise discretionary authority under Section 405 except in situations where HUD finds substantial noncompliance under Section 401 (thereby requiring notice, the opportunity for a hearing, and mandatory enforcement by HUD). Given this interpretation of NAHASDA and its accompanying regulations, defendant maintains that the statute simply does not reach the situation now before us: the agency's correction of a grant-funding error to recover overpayments improvidently made by HUD. Defendant instead sees HUD as having exercised what defendant describes as the government's “inherent authority” to recover sums erroneously paid—a common law right, defendant maintains, that exists irrespective of any limitations on recapture contained in NAHASDA or its implementing regulations. In defendant's view, HUD, like all government agencies, has an inherent authority recognized by the Supreme Court to recover funds that the agency has “wrongfully, erroneously, or illegally paid.” United States v. Wurts, 303 U.S. 414, 415 (1938). Further, defendant maintains that “[n]o statute is necessary to authorize the United States to sue in such a case. The right to sue is independent of statute.” Id. (quoting United States v. Bank of the Metropolis, 40 U.S. 377, 401 (1841)). Such authority is based upon “the principle that parties receiving moneys illegally paid by a public officer are liable ex aequo et bono [i.e., in justice and fairness] to refund them.” Barrett Ref. Corp. v. United States, 242 F.3d 1055, 1064 (Fed.Cir.2001) (quoting Wisconsin Cent. R.R. Co. v. United States, 164 U.S. 190, 212 (1896)). Nor, defendant contends, must HUD file suit to establish the illegality of the payment, but may instead offset the debt administratively from amounts otherwise owed to the debtor. United States v. Munsey Trust Co., 332 U.S. 234, 239 (1947) (recognizing that “[t]he government has the same right ‘which belongs to every creditor, to apply the unappropriated moneys of his debtor, in his hands, in extinguishment of the debts due to him.’ ”) (quoting Gratiot v. United States, 40 U.S. 336, 370 (1841)). Defendant thus argues that HUD's administrative offset of grant funds was a lawful exercise of the agency's common law right—one that exists wholly outside the parameters of NAHASDA. II. We cannot accept defendant's argument. Although defendant insists that Sections 401 and 405 of NAHASDA do not govern HUD's actions in this case and that HUD at no time implemented a sanction thereunder, we read Section 405 as addressing the situation at hand. Section 405, titled “Review and audit by Secretary,” provides in relevant part as follows: *7 An entity designated by an Indian tribe as a housing entity shall be treated, for purposes of chapter 75 of Title 31, as a non-Federal entity that is subject to the audit requirements that apply to non-Federal entities under that chapter. In addition to any audit or review under subsection (a) of this section, to the extent the Secretary determines such action to be appropriate, the Secretary may conduct an audit or review of a recipient in order to— (A) determine whether the recipient— (i) has carried out— (I) eligible activities in a timely manner; and (II) eligible activities and certification in accordance with this chapter and other applicable law; (ii) has a continuing capacity to carry out eligible activities in a timely manner; and (iii) is in compliance with the Indian housing plan of the recipient; and (B) verify the accuracy of information contained in any performance report submitted by the recipient under section 4164 of this title. As indicated above, defendant reads this section as applying only to a narrow category of reviews and audits conducted by HUD. We, however, read Section 405 as conferring broad authority on the Secretary to review a grant recipient's performance under NAHASDA, including monitoring a grant recipient's compliance with its Indian housing plan and verifying the accuracy of the recipient's performance reports—the two primary program documents submitted by a grant recipient. 25 U.S.C. § 4165(b)(1)(A)(iii), (B). In the instant case, HUD acted pursuant to an audit conducted at the direction of HUD's Office of Inspector General to determine whether ineligible housing had been included in the allocation formula. Such a review, we believe, comes within Section 405's broad mandate to ensure that the grant program is being conducted in accordance with NAHASDA. See, e.g., 25 U.S.C. § 4165(b)(1)(A)(i)(II) (authorizing review “to determine whether the recipient has carried out eligible activities ... in accordance with this chapter”).FN11 In addition, HUD ultimately characterized as ineligible for grant purposes housing units that plaintiffs contend should properly have been included as FCAS, a dispute that should have been the subject of a hearing and not the object of unilateral resolution by HUD. FN11. Indeed, the distinction defendant draws between actions purportedly taken under Title III to ensure HUD's compliance with NAHASDA and actions taken under Title IV to ensure a grant recipient's compliance with NAHASDA is an artificial one that is not borne out by NAHASDA's implementing regulations. The regulations make clear that the grant recipient, the grant beneficiary, and HUD all share responsibility for monitoring activities under NAHASDA. 24 C.F.R. § 1000.501. In particular, a grant recipient “is responsible for monitoring grant activities, ensuring compliance with applicable Federal requirements and monitoring performance goals under the [Indian Housing Plan]”; “for preparing at least annually ... a performance report covering the assessment of program progress and goal attainment under the [Indian Housing Plan]”; and for conducting “an evaluation of the recipient's performance in accordance with performance objectives and measures.” 24 C.F.R. § 1000.502(a). HUD is charged under this same regulation with reviewing the recipient as set forth in § 1000.520, a regulation that calls for HUD's review of each grant recipient's performance, at least annually, to determine whether the recipient has met the same standards identified in Section 405 ( i.e., has carried out its eligible activities in a timely manner and in accordance with the requirements and the primary objective of NAHASDA and with other applicable laws; has a continuing capacity to carry out those activities in a timely manner; has complied with the Indian Housing Plan; and has submitted accurate performance reports). 24 C.F.R. § 1000.502(c). HUD may, in conducting this review, consider a wide array of information, including reports prepared by the recipient, records maintained by the recipient, and any other reliable relevant information which relates to the performance measures under 24 C.F.R. § 1000.524. We therefore do not construe Title IV remedies as directed exclusively toward grant recipient compliance; rather we see HUD and grant recipients working together under Title IV and its accompanying regulations to ensure the success of the NAHASDA program. That defendant reads this section too narrowly is evidenced by NAHASDA's implementing regulations. Those regulations, as originally proposed,FN12 directed that a grant recipient indicate the number of units removed from its FCAS inventory in the recipient's Annual Performance Report—a report whose accuracy Section 405 review is designed to ensure. 25 U.S.C. § 4165(b)(1)(B) (authorizing review to “verify the accuracy of information contained in any performance report”). Because of timing considerations, however, the final version of the implementing regulations specified that such information should instead be included in a grant recipient's Formula Response Form. 63 Fed.Reg. 12364–65 (Mar. 12, 1998) (setting forth final rule 24 C.F.R. § 1000.302, which defines a Formula Response Form as “the form recipients use to report changes to their Formula Current Assisted stock, formula area, and other formula related information before each year's formula allocation”). As explained in the committee notes accompanying the final rule: FN12. 24 C.F.R. § 1000.334, as originally proposed, provided in full as follows:). *8 The Committee added a definition of “Formula Response Form” to reflect the changes made elsewhere in the rule. The proposed rule would have required data for the formula to be included in the [Indian Housing Plan]. However, because the data is needed before the [Indian Housing Plan] submission date, the Committee decided to require formula data to be submitted on a separate form. 63 Fed.Reg. 12341–42; see also 24 C.F.R. § 1000.315 (2007) (clarifying that the Formula Response Form is the only mechanism a recipient may use to report changes to the number of FCAS). The fact that FCAS information is included in a separate form due to administrative necessity does not, in our view, take the review of FCAS outside the purview of Section 405. Indeed, a later regulation specified that “[r]eview of FCAS will be accomplished by HUD as a component of A–133 audits, routine monitoring, FCAS target monitoring, or other reviews.” 24 C.F.R. § 1000.319(d) (2007). Given this framework, we think it evident that HUD's audit of plaintiffs' FCAS counts, conducted at the direction of the OIG, falls squarely within the agency's authority under Section 405.FN13 FN13. HUD revised its regulations in 2007 to specify that if a grant recipient receives an overpayment of funds because it fails to report FCAS changes on the Formula Response Form in a timely manner, the recipient must repay the funds within five fiscal years. 24 C.F .R. § 1000.319(b). In addition, Congress amended Section 401 the following year to indicate that a failure to report FCAS correctly does not, in itself, constitute substantial noncompliance. Native American Housing Assistance and Self–Determination Reauthorization Act of 2008, Pub.L. No. 110–411, 122 Stat. 4319 (2008) (codified at 25 U.S.C. § 4161(a)(2)) (specifying that “[t]he failure of a recipient to comply with the requirements of section 4152(b)(1) of this title regarding the reporting of low-income dwelling units shall not, in itself, be considered to be substantial noncompliance for purposes of this subchapter.”). Neither of these developments, however, means that FCAS issues that come to light as the result of an audit fall outside of Section 405. And while Section 1000.319's requirement that grant recipients repay overpaid grant funds within five years arguably conflicts with Section 1000.532's prohibition on the recapture of grant amounts already expended on affordable housing activities, the new regulation was not yet in place when plaintiffs' grant funds were recaptured, and thus, the reconciliation of these provisions must await another day. Because we conclude that Section 405 applies in the instant case, we further conclude that HUD was not free to disregard the requirements of that section in favor of a common law remedy with no apparent rules or limitations.FN14 Resort to federal common law is appropriate only when a statute does not speak to an issue. City of Milwaukee v. Illinois and Michigan, 451 U.S. 304, 319 n.14 (1981) (recognizing that “federal courts create federal common law only as a necessary expedient when problems requiring federal answers are not addressed by federal statutory law”). But where, as here, Congress has spoken to the question, HUD may not circumvent that statutory scheme. American Elec. Power Co. v. Connecticut, ––– U.S. ––––, 131 S.Ct. 2527, 2537 (2011) (“[W]hen Congress addresses a question previously governed by a decision rested on federal common law the need for such an unusual exercise of law-making by federal courts disappears.”) (quoting City of Milwaukee, 451 U.S. at 314). In the present case, we believe Section 405—and not federal common law—governs the situation at hand. FN14. Because we conclude that Section 405 is applicable in the present case, we need not reach the issue of whether a common law right to recover money erroneously paid, through administrative offset, exists in situations not covered by the statute (as, for instance, where the agency makes a unilateral mistake by erroneously inserting an additional digit into a payment amount) or whether, as plaintiffs maintain, NAHASDA displaces any such right “through the establishment of a comprehensive regulatory program supervised by an expert administrative agency.” City of Milwaukee v. Illinois and Michigan, 451 U.S. 304, 317 (1981). We observe, however, that the cases plaintiffs cite for the proposition that courts should read the enumeration of remedies in a statute as precluding other remedies— see, e.g., Alexander, 532 U.S. at 290; Transamerica Mortg., 444 U.S. at 19; American Bus, 231 F.3d at 4—do not involve the displacement of a preexisting common law right. We therefore do not accept the contention that NAHASDA's enumeration of certain remedies necessarily precludes the exercise of an additional, common law remedy in all circumstances. Rather, “[t]he test for whether congressional legislation excludes the declaration of federal common law is simply whether the statute speaks directly to the question at issue.” American Elec. Power Co. v. Connecticut, ––– U.S. ––––, 131 S.Ct. 2527, 2537 (2011); Mobil Oil Corp. v. Higginbotham, 436 U.S. 618, 625 (1978). The decision in City of Kansas City v. United States Dep't of Housing and Urban Dev., 861 F.2d 739, 743 (D.C.Cir.1988), is instructive on this point. In discussing the importance of the procedural requirements set forth in the Housing and Community Development Act of 1974 (“CDBG”), 42 U.S.C. § 5304(d) (1982 & Supp. IV 1986)—an act whose enforcement provisions contain essentially the same language as NAHASDA's Sections 401 and 405—the court observed that such protections play “a critical role” in the statutory scheme because they “ensure that a city legally entitled to an annual CDBG grant will not be precipitously deprived of funding pursuant to arbitrary action by HUD.” Id. at 744 (internal quotation omitted). Of particular relevance to the instant case, the court pointed out that “[i]n most cases, Congress has been silent on the question of a grantee's procedural rights when an agency decides to terminate some or all of its federal grant. When, as in this case, Congress has not been silent, a court has a special obligation to ensure that the agency does not end-run the clear procedural protections which Congress provided.” Id. at 745 (internal quotation and citation omitted). The court continued as follows: *9 The Secretary cannot ignore the notice and hearing provisions of section 111 [the section corresponding to NAHASDA's Section 401] simply because he prefers the more informal procedures of section 104(d) [the section corresponding to NAHASDA's Section 405]. HUD's own report admits that HUD has used section 104 in order to “avoid[ ] the more detailed and rigorous procedural standards of Section 111 .” This application of the statute plainly violates congressional intent. As we have previously noted, “[w]hen a statute dictates that parties receive notice and a hearing ... the provision of those basic procedural rights is not left to be decided by administrative ‘flexibility’ or ‘discretion.’ “ In the district court's words, section 111 would be a “nullity” if the Secretary could avoid it whenever he chose, as he has for fourteen years, by using section 104(d) instead. We cannot, however, accept plaintiffs' assertion that Section 405's introductory phrase “[s]ubject to section 4161(a)” imports the substantial noncompliance provision of Section 401 into actions taken under Section 405. Rather, we read this language as indicating that compliance issues must be addressed under Section 401 and not under Section 405. In other words, defendant is correct that the phrase “[s]ubject to section 4161(a)” excludes the scope of Section 401 from Section 405. Shell Oil Co. v. Manley Oil Corp ., 124 F.2d 714, 716 (7th Cir.1941) (observing that “[t]he words ‘subject to,’ used in their ordinary sense, mean ‘subordinate to,’ ‘subservient to’ or ‘limited by.’ ”). Such a conclusion follows from the structure of the statute itself. Section 401, by the terms of its title, deals with “Remedies for noncompliance.” That section provides for nondiscretionary action by the Secretary (“the Secretary shall ...”), procedural safeguards, and the explicit requirement that the agency make a finding of noncompliance before imposing the section's drastic sanctions (including a termination of all grant funding and the removal of a grant recipient from the program). 25 U.S.C. § 4161. Section 405, by contrast, allows for discretionary enforcement authority pursuant to specific reviews. 25 U.S.C. § 4165. What distinguishes the two statutory sections, in other words, is the culpability of the grant recipient, the discretion of the Secretary, and the nature and severity of the sanctions imposed. It would make no sense for both sections to operate only where the grant recipient is in substantial noncompliance. Otherwise, the more lenient standards of Section 405 would swallow up Section 401.FN15 FN15. Congress added the introductory phrase “[s]ubject to section 4161(a)” to the statute in 2000 as part of an amendment to Section 405. Pub.L. No. 106–568, 114 Stat. 2868 (2000); Pub.L. No. 106–569, 114 Stat. 2944 (2000). As originally enacted in 1996, the enforcement provision of Section 405 read, prior to codification, as follows:. Despite our conclusion that Section 405 does not incorporate a substantial noncompliance requirement by reference to Section 401, we nevertheless observe that Section 405 contains its own hearing requirement, set forth in the regulations. 24 C.F.R. § 1000.532 requires HUD to provide the opportunity for a hearing whenever the agency adjusts a grant amount after an audit under Section 405 and explicitly prohibits the recapture of NAHASDA funds that have already been expended on affordable housing activities. Providing plaintiffs with the opportunity for a hearing in this case before adjusting their grant amounts was therefore something HUD was required—but failed—to do. *10 Recognizing that HUD must comply with the statutory and regulatory regime in providing hearings before reducing grant amounts is consistent with the legislative history of NAHASDA and its implementing regulations. From the outset, both the NAHASDA program and the promulgation of the rules implementing that program were designed to be collaborative. In Section 106(b)(2) of NAHASDA, for instance, Congress directed HUD to develop NAHASDA's implementing regulations with active tribal participation by using the procedures of the Negotiated Rulemaking Act of 1990, as amended, 5 U.S.C. §§ 561–570. 62 Fed.Reg. 35718 (July 2, 1997). Pursuant to this direction, the Secretary of HUD established the Native American Housing Assistance and Self–Determination Negotiated Rulemaking Committee—made up of 48 Indian tribes, ten HUD representatives, and three individuals from the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service—to negotiate and develop proposed rules implementing NAHASDA. At the recommendation of tribal leaders, the committee agreed to operate based on consensus rulemaking,FN16 and HUD committed to using, to the maximum extent feasible consistent with its legal obligations, all consensus decisions as the basis for the proposed rules. Id. at 35719. FN16. The protocols adopted by the committee defined “consensus” as “general agreement demonstrated by the absence of expressed disagreement by a Committee member in regards to a particular issue.” 62 Fed.Reg. 35719. During the first round of rulemaking in 1997, HUD took the position that the agency was permitted to recapture grant funds under Section 405 without providing prior notice and the opportunity for hearing and accordingly drafted a proposed rule that provided for neither. Id. at 35746 (proposed Section 1000.528). Tribal reaction to HUD's proposed rule, however, was unanimously hostile. 63 Fed.Reg. 12334, 12347 (Mar. 12, 1998). As a result, the final rule stated that “HUD will [in cases brought under Section 405] ... provide the recipient with a hearing identical to that afforded recipients under section 401(a) of NAHASDA.” Id.FN17 Two conclusions thus appear evident from the legislative record: first, that Congress intended active involvement by the Indian tribes in the promulgation of NAHASDA's implementing regulations and second, that the tribes perceived hearings as an important part of their procedural rights. FN17. As explained more fully in the Federal Register, the proposed rule implementing Section 405(c), as drafted by HUD, “did not provide notice and an opportunity for hearing.” Id. The Federal Register continues as follows:. Requiring HUD to observe this additional level of procedural protection makes sense since the NAHASDA program is designed to protect the Indians. 25 U.S.C. § 4101 sets forth congressional findings regarding NAHASDA. In particular, Congress found that “there exists a unique relationship between the Government of the United States and the governments of Indian tribes” (Section 4101(2)); that “the United States has undertaken a unique trust responsibility to protect and support Indian tribes and Indian people” (Section 4101(3)); that “the need for affordable homes in safe and healthy environments on Indian reservations ... is acute” (Section 4101(6)); and that “providing affordable homes in safe and healthy environments is an essential element in the special role of the United States in helping Indian tribes and their members to improve their housing conditions and socioeconomic status” (Section 4101(5)). See also 24 C.F.R. § 1000.2 (directing that these congressional findings be used as the guiding principles in the implementation of NAHASDA). Reducing a present year's grant to recover past funds misallocated by HUD (but spent correctly by the tribe) contravenes these goals. See, e.g., Bell v. New Jersey, 461 U.S. 773, 783 n.8 (1983) (recognizing that the beneficiaries of grant funds suffer where a reduction in grant funds to remedy past deficiencies leads to a corresponding reduction in program services). *11 In conclusion, we read Section 405 as governing HUD's actions and thus as precluding HUD from exercising any common law right the agency might otherwise possess under circumstances not directly addressed by the statute. We further read that section as applying only in cases that do not involve a grant recipient's substantial noncompliance with NAHASDA (which would fall instead under Section 401). In addition, we construe Section 405's implementing regulations as requiring the Secretary to provide notice and the opportunity for a hearing before making an adjustment to a recipient's grant amounts and as preventing the Secretary from recapturing grant amounts already expended on affordable housing activities. To conclude otherwise would allow HUD to deny grant recipients the protections Congress has afforded them when faced with a reduction in their grant funding, would further allow the agency to circumvent a process put into place by consensus rulemaking at the direction of Congress, and would lead to the anomalous result that a grant recipient in substantial noncompliance with NAHASDA would receive greater procedural protections before experiencing a recapture of their grant funds than recipients in full compliance (a target for recapture through a fault of HUD's rather than their own). We are unwilling to endorse such an unsatisfactory result. CONCLUSION For the reasons set forth above, defendant's motion to dismiss plaintiffs' second claim for relief is DENIED.

.” Florida's political scene is like a poop fight at the monkey house. No wonder a simple thing like counting votes is a huge ordeal for them. When it is all said and done, the good news is that President Obama took Florida! Well done! It's almost as if they tried to deter voting. Reduce early voting days by nearly half for a presidential election??? If at first you don't succeed try, try again. In Florida's case, they won't stop until they get it right, that is, to completely drown out democracy and make the election go the way that they want it to go......in their state at least. Florida is a good state because even if their state government tries to cheat the voters out of their right to vote, the repubs still lose. They cheated Bush into office and look what that did for our country, you would think, after awhile, even they would learn!! The red counties are where all the r e t a r d s with tatoos and missing teeth live. . It will take a constitutional ammendment to get partisan hands off of the voting process. All eligible voters should be registered automatically, and the list constantly updated. Voting should be mandatory with a $100 fee for not voting. This fee will pay for the whole process easily at current voting rates, with the remainder going solely to reduce the national debt. The only snafu is the sore loser complex! A voting taxation? Not voting is in itself a type of vote. Making it mandatory would be foolish. We shouldn't be forcing people to vote if their political views do not align with one of the candidates. Did any of you notice that Florida got in a part of the voting law that allows the people to look and compare signatures and if they don't look the same they can be thrown out. Now after 40 years my signature looks nothing like it did when I first voted. Of course, I want to point out that back then it was called a literacy test and was still allowed in the South only until the Supreme Court ruling, outlawing it! Now we have gotten it in the North. Totally Un-Constitutional. I refuse to sign and use an X. It is legal ! Florida is the home base of Rush Limbaugh, self-hating homosexual Matt Drudge, and a summer home for the kooky Ann Coulter. Hmmm, why is this a surprise? Load up all the senior citizens in the nursing homes and lets go vote-- Florida state Motto. What happened to the Republican mantra "Less Government" It looks like the republicans got over involved in the voting process and Fu<&ed it up. Yup, the people who are yelling smaller are making it bigger. Don't forget Mike Huckebee now lives in a $3 million dollar mansion he had built in Destin ,FL. I lived in Pensacola 2009 - 2011, never in my life have I met so many racists & homophobes as I did in the FL panhandle (lower Alabama is what they call the panhandle), they are still pissed about the Civil War ! Sounds to me like the republicans were trying to make it difficult for the democrats to vote. Cutting early voting time, limited of voting places, Wording out the ballet so it takes longer to vote. Republicans have shown themselves to be the slime of the country in so many ways. Oh, yea, blocking anything they can to make the president look bad for the last couple of years no matter what the cost to the economy, but that was their agenda. So nice to see they got spanked. Raise your swords up high. "a poop fight at the monkey house", but those are the best and most fun fights there are :P. What else do you expect from the penis of America. We even have a dick for a governor that stole billions from a program designed to help people in need. I am impressed that Florida will go to Obama, not to mention the nation. It was close, hopefully is will be a good thing. Republicans control Florida so what else can we expect. They do not want to let any one other than republicans to win. I drove around my city and found long lines in the minority sections and ease of voting and short lines in Repub areas in cold weather. I watched one line for over an hour in a minority area and not one person got out of line in frustration. Congradulations to all of those who stood for the right wings crap got out and voteed and showed them we cannot let you buy elections. You are the true American. I have to wonder about this part of the story: Why not do like we do in the USVI, and I think some mainland states do the same...close the damned schools on election day and use them as the polling locations. After all, the taxpayers are paying for those public facilities. UnitesStates1776, you're a third class moron. I had to vote a provisional ballot here because when I went to vote my name was not on the list. I registered about two years ago the same day, same place, same time as my wife. My wife is registered as a Republican; I'm not. She had no problem voting. Since Florida still hasn't counted the ballots, I doubt they've even looked at mine. I feel cheated. By the way Florida Republicans, the joke's on you: My wife voted straight Democratic. Another red state turning blue. God bless America. The Supervisor of Elections for Miami-Dade is NOT a Republican. Actually, the counties where things have been most messed up in the past have been primarily ran by democrats. S FL counties were given an extra day, where other counties in FL were not. The polls in Miami-Dade officially finally closed at 1:30AM (according to S FL news). The local news showed pictures of a polling station at 8:00PM after closing and then showed another at 11:00PM. The news video supposedly made at 11 showed more people in line waiting than at 8:00. Someone was also supposedly collecting paper ballots outside and telling people they would submit the ballots for the persons but not checking names against the list. All stories being talked about in S FL but not getting much national attention. I'm just thankful that the Nation wasn't dependent on FL as that might had brought the spotlight on the irregularities and deciding the winner may have been even worse than the whole Bush v. Gore mess. Florida, where all the rich F^CK's retire, gee, imagine that! Thanks Mike for pointing out some facts. Miami-Dade is a huge Democrat controlled area. It's hard to believe that a state that's governed by a super-smart, free- market loving, ace businessman can't seem to run something as simple as an election. Of course, in fairness, Florida has only had 12 years to come to grips with the debacle of 2000. If I didn't know better, I might think that Rick Scott was the kind of guy who would defraud the government and engage in voter suppression. I'm a Democrat but what is funny is my best friends are Republicans GO FIGURE, oh by the way they did not vote, they were mad that their party was trying to kill Obama-care, I think that may have been why Romney lost ... Oh well .... Next time have two separate voting sheets, one for the president vote and one for constitutional changes, then they can take their jolly time counting the second one. They can't figure out the rules of the road so why should we expect them to actually be able to fill out a ballot. Bet they know the lottery system though. UnitedStates1776 said: "The red counties are where all the r e t a r d s with tatoos and missing teeth live." The blue ones are where all of the illegal and dead Democrats live. Florida once again shows how inadequate and inept they are at anything .Nice place to visit but almost as whacked as California. I say lets just skip Florida. Wait we have already done that. So...by Saturday, for sure? Jeb, I thought we knew ya! as a floridian for 11 yrs., i can't even argue with any negative comment here. this entire state is so screwed up on so many levels, it's not even worth putting up with for the weather; florida is a perfect example of "it's a nice place to visit but i wouldn't want to live there". "Amen" brother Celt Amen! Also the insects and the alligators Interesting that GOP strategists think Jeb Bush should run next time around. Now, what could possibly go wrong in Florida in 2016? Get it the fvck together 'cause we don't elect presidents from third world countries either! 1. Give Florida back to Spain. Problems solved. 2. Make Puerto Rico a state. The flag stays the same. No changes needed. Let Spain deal with them. Payback for taking the "Black Swan" sunken treasure money. Born and raised in Florida and I even have to go WTF????? Common Sense from above: "It almost looks like they were trying to deter voting" .... I know your intentons were good but that is one of the most naive comments I've seen here ..... OF COURSE Republicans were trying to "deter" voting by minorities and middle class common folk, this was total manipulation by making it harder to vote. The Florida Election apparatus needs to be investigated and brought up on charges of tampering with the federal election process, and those officials found guilty banned from ever over seeing any election again. The Federal Justice System should look into filing a Federal Suit to take the right of Florida to operate Federal Elections in the future. politics as usual for republicans, did u really think they would go away quietly? What made me rethink was in hearing the majority of the elderly voted republican. The republicans made it clear their social security and medicare would be safe from cuts if they were over 55, so they decided to toss the rest of us under the bus. Florida and Arizona have become cess pools of Republican corruption and incompetence. Why any clear thinking American can continue to support the Republican Party baffles me............ The GOP is not only a crimnal organization it's also a contagious disease that must be eradicated. What an embarrassment. I remember when the United States was a "shining city on the hill", a beacon for democracies around the world to follow. Now, thanks to our collective incompetence, as typified in the dysfunctional banana republic of Florida when it comes to running elections, we are not only a laughing stock; but we fuel the mockery of what we now laughingly claim as our own values in which our Jihadist enemies revel. well, it took so long to bus in all the illegals to vote, then they couldn't read the ballot, then they couldn't count the ballots...but hey, YOU wanted them!! Since Obama is ahead in the count in Florida, I wonder if the Supreme Court would have stepped in and handed the election to Obama like they did for Bush if Florida were needed to win the presidency? I'd bet not. @ FedupwithFed Either you're a very sore loser or talking out of your anal canal. Florida requires a photo ID and/or a signature voter registration card issued by the board of elections to vote. The problem with voting this time was the number of issues on the ballot that required 12 pages and the small number of voting booths that could not handle the number of voters. On top of that Rick Scott would not extend the voting days and even tried to reduce the number of hours the polls were open. Thankfully none of that worked because people of both parties insisted they be allowed to vote. What gets me is that Florida has a population of 19 million. California has a population of almost 38 million. Polls closed here in California at 8pm and within 15 mins we knew who won. I know we ain't no poster child for perfect state but damn, Florida, how do you f*ck things up that badly? I might also add that the presidency had already been decided before the last person voted election night so the poll workers packed up and went home to count the votes later. @Chris Unless my memory fails me, Obama was declared the winner of California the minute the polls were closed before any votes were counted. Amazing that some many people are totally ignorant about the fact that the ONLY counties in Florida that are having problems with voting are DEMOCRATIC counties. That is true for every presidential election since BUSH/GORE. Those are the facts. Larry, I LIVE in Florida and I was a poll watcher....I SAW what was happening! so who is talking out of their ass??? @ FedupwithFed - If you are a poll watch as you claim, (since nobody would ever lie on a blog to bolster non-existent credentials) you are personally responsible for allowing these alleged illegal immigrants to vote. It's far more likely that you're a simpering redneck bigot that nobody takes seriously and who cannot fathom the fact that these assorted brown peoples are better educated, better people and better Americans than you are yourself. anti trust It's interesting that there are accessibility issues. Seems Florida has had some stricter codes on accessibility than many states for quite some time. Fed up You think you have problems? In the Polling places republican poll watchers were kicked out of in Pennsylvania and Ohio end up with 99% and 100% of votes for Obama. You probably really loved the UN observer's comment of "Why don't you have a requirement for voter photo ID's. We are officially a banana republic. We have to get RICK SCOTT OUT OF OFFICE! So basically it amounts to Florida and Gov. Rick Scott did everything in their power to suppress Democratic votes (e.g., reducing early voting days, reducing polling locations, voter ID to prevent non-existant voter fraud, etc.) and all it did was galvanize Democratic voters to show up in droves, wait in long lines, cast absentee ballots, and give the state of Florida and it's 29 electoral votes to President Obama while simultaneously making Florida the laughing stock of the democratic world... Congrats Gov. Scott, a resounding victory if I do say so myself... ... This is total bull@!$%# I might add. Illegals cannot vote, lie more Fed... Fedupwithfed. if you where correct, which you are not, that would mean that immigrants who can't speak English are still smarter then republicans. think about your statements lol That's the wonderful thing about electronic voting. Not like it mattered but California was overwhelmingly Dem. Romney had zero chance of collecting Cali's electoral, which is why he spent almost no time campaigning here. As for the Presidency being decided before the last votes were in. Of course it was. The Electoral count was already over 270 for Obama with several blue states yet to submit. At that point it was a forgone conclusion. Once Florida gets it's head out of it's ass, it's 29 EV's will most likely go to Obama as well. Giving him 332 in the end. There was no way in hell Romney would have won. That was obvious to pretty much everyone even without those last few state results. Though the 2nd best thing that night was watching Rove make an idiot out of himself. It is not that the counties having trouble are democratic counties it is that they have the largest number of voters and the largest visability. Some voters here in Florida were screaming voter surpression for months. Starting with ID's which requried original birth, wedding, and SS card documents, plus $25. That's $50 for a couple to vote. Poll tax? Gov. Rick Scott, a former G. W. Bush business partner, would not allow additional voting days or hours, even after one poll had to be closed for a bomb squad to explode to packages. Scott, who was CEO of HCA hospital company which had the largest Medicare fraud payment in history, was not even charged. Of course, Scott's former business partner was the sitting President Bush. The Republican legislature put these regulations this year to take the heat off of 2016, when Jeb Bush will be considered for President. This was not not just two counties. The RNC hired a consulting firm which got its hand in the ballot box, and fired them in Florida, (they had used this firm in all the swing states). The only hope for Florida to have an honest election in 2016 is to get a democratic swing in the legislature in the next election. They have taken the mentality that winning is not everything it is the ONLY thing. It seems to be just a fun game for the Republicans in Florida. Ok, So, I was reading some of the comments on how our ancesters came here illegally and the rightful one's to be here are the Native Americans. Well, if we sit and think about it. Even the Native American's are here illegally, because if the history books stand correct we all came from apes in Africa. They came to North America from a land bridge. So, I quess we should all start packing our bags and head back to Africa. This is about legally becoming an American. Our ancesters that came here in a boat had to wait in line for days just to get a number identifying who they are and get degrating physicals in front of hundreds even thousands of others. They didnt just get off the boat and make a mad dash for the hills then feel entitled to get money from our country just because they are illegally here. No one said they couldnt come back, they can when they follow the rules and become an American legally. George PaulJohn, Are you serious? Asking Fedupwithfed to think is a little extreme. Wouldn't you say? I've lived in Florida for 42 years. I don't want to hear how Dade county's election problems are caused by Democrats. All of Florida's notorious election problems are caused by Republican dirty tricks. Dade County especially, because they are the Democratic stronghold in Florida. Early voting in my county of Manatee was a very bad joke. One poll opened in the entire County with 3 or 4 hour lines every single day. If ever there was a cause for discouraging citizen participation, I can think of nothing more effective. All of this because of Republican efforts of sabotage in Tallahassee. Florida election 2000 seemed to be an anomaly. This repeat 12 years later proves it is deliberate. Washington must pass a law allowing the feds to take over elections in any state proven unable to provide this fundamental exercise in Democracy. Frankly the poles should open at 6:00 AM on the first Monday of November, closing at 11:00 PM, and maintain those hours every day through the following Sunday. Seven days of voting and expanded hours. Voting hours and days should be the same in EVERY state, also. It is too important to have so narrow a window, just a few hours on one day. There are many variables preventing people from getting there on one specific day; illness, unexpected travel for work, family death, etc. If people had a week we would have far greater participation in our system. No matter your political views, the one thing I believe we should agree upon is that we need to be allowed to cast our vote and be part of the democratic process. Voting in a Presidential election in the United States? Easy as wrapping ones legs around ones head, then walking a few miles on ones ass. The people of Zimbabwe have to be laughing their asses off. Wanna vote? Anyone? No! Not you! You don't look like you'd vote like I wish you to! You're a phony! No? Prove to me you're not! Gwaddamn republicans! In Ohio, Husted tried the same things. It was part of the Republican agenda to get votes thrown out. Fortunately, a federal judge has called Husted and his cronies to the mat, and is demanding an explanation. A federal judge had previously denied Husted obstructionist agenda, and then Husted tried another end run the Friday night (at 7 p.m.) before the elections the following Tuesday. This behavior was so blatant that it staggers my imagination. Truly, these acts of desperation reveal the true face of the Republican party. lol... a must watch for those observing florida voting process! 1. Rick Scott did everything he could to suppress the vote. It still amazes me that some of the idiots in my community actually voted for someone who took the 5th 75 times in the biggest Medicare Medicaid fraud case up until that time, his company settled on a $1,700,000,000 dollar fine and he was forced to resign. I asked someone I know how he could vote for him knowing about the fraud case, his answer was "they're all crooks", yeah so wouldn't you want to vote for the crook smart enough to not get caught. 2.These 11 constitutional amendments were very awkwardly worded so you really had to take your time with them, Should do your research before you go the polls. Ultimately almost all were an attempt at a power grab by the tea party, and a few were against the us constitution, that would have never been legal, and 1 would have allowed public funds for religious use with no accountability. 3. All the hold up is in Miami Dade county AKA the Banana Republic. All the other counties were done and counted on time. Guess you people do not realize who populates FL & AZ?? Retirees from the Northeast & Mid-West. In FL , they are the largest contingent of the voting community. FL born voters constitute roughly 8% of the electorate. So, If you live in the NE or Mid-West , and think FL's screwed up?? Look in the mirror , and look at the cause. One has to wonder if officials have deliberately muddled the process. If Florida had been the deciding vote in this past election, how easy would it have been to manipulate the outcome? As the article implies very strongly, the Republicans in Florida, who had control of the governor's office, the legislature, and the chief of elections office, did almost everything they could do, and blatantly so, to discourage Democrats from voting. I agree. In Pennsylvania, the legislature passed legislation shortly before the elections requiring photo IDs along with substantial and unnecessary restrictions. One of the Republican leaders publicly bragged about how that legislation would enable the Republicans to win in Pennsylvania. A Republican judge finally stopped enforcement for this election, but refused to stop those same officials from continuing to publicly advertise the photo ID program, which allegedly continued to confuse and intimidate many voters. Those same Republican leaders hypocritically claimed the rationale for the photo ID was to prevent voter fraud. There is an expression, "It takes one to know one." When I voted (in PA), a sheet asking for the photo ID was on the table. I ignored it, but I wondered how many people could have been intimidated or confused by it, especially if they were a Democrat and the person behind the table was a Republican, especially if they were at home deciding whether to make the effort to go vote or not. That is not Democracy. It made me ashamed to be a Republican. It is time for our legislators and law enforcement officials to do their jobs by putting a stop to these flagrant abuses of Democracy. I'll be changing soon to be an Independent. (c) 2012 I did that in 1969, life and at that time in OH, we were called GDI's...this will probably get me in trouble with the Code, but the full expression then was "those god damned independents." There were many general elections where I voted ONLY on ballot issues, and of course that is all that I could vote for in primaries...if there were any ballot issues. Here in the US Virgin Islands, we have an option on our ballots...NO VOTE (similar to Nevada's NONE OF THE ABOVE.) That has been my vote since 2000, when I realized that we had that option on our voting machines. And I encourage others to cast the same vote if there is no one that they feel comfortable really voting for. Here in Nevada We had to show our ID and sign so the signature could be verified, and this was at a Mexican Learning center. We also had to show ID and sign in Florida. Voting at the polls as a regular, registered voter was easy. But we must vote Rick Scott out of office at our first opportunity! Even his supporters now wonder WTF they were thinking. What a disorganized, crooked madhouse! If this operation were a normal business, those responsible for the whole mess would have been fired days ago. Take action and do something NOW about this criminality, Floridians! (And don't just sit back and wait for your next opportunity to "vote" for different people in charge, since this obviously isn't a very workable or reliable solution for you there!) Don't fool yourself that a vote for a third party, or none of the above is a real vote. No one cares about protest votes. Ralph Nader, Pat Buchanan or Johnson just took votes from one or other of the two who could win. Sometimes, like McCain's mother said, "You just have to hold your nose and vote". Sometimes, there are issues that make you disagree strongly with a person that is in the general direction that you want. The other person may want, however, to go the other way. There are total overall differences. Stand up and make a choice, not a snarky NO choice. I live in rural (always red) Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania was a state that passed, then temporarily stopped, voter ID laws. My mother was born on a Native American reservation and has no registered birth certificate. She is 80 years old and a registered Democrat who has voted in every election since she came of age including the last mid-term elections. About a year ago she decided it was time to give up driving so, not thinking of the consequences, cut up her license. When the ID law came into effect I sent for a duplicate license for her; this was five weeks prior to the election, because she could not get a 'voter ID card' without her birth certificate. (her original license did not expire for another year and a half). The duplicate did not arrive and, even though the ID law was put on hold, I wanted her to have the ID. I called and called and every time I was told that it was "in the process". The day of the election it still had not arrived. I drove her to the poll and, when we went in, there was a sign on the door stating that positive ID was required to vote. We ignored it and went to the desk. My mom's name and all of her information was in the ledger but there was a typed notation on her signature line that read: "Inactive" and instructed the poll worker to get positive ID. After three of the other people in the polling place positively identified my mom (the town is only 4,500 people and we all know each other) the worker finally allowed her to vote. Mom's duplicate license came ... on Wednesday ... the day AFTER the election. Voter suppression is real. Voting is one of the few rights left to us that allows us to have a say in the workings of our government. No matter the party affiliation, the one thing we should ALL agree upon is that our government does not have the right to stop us from casting our vote nor should they be allowed to make it difficult for the citizens. I live in Florida and Governor Scott is a joke he caused this mess and refuses to admit it. I can't wait to vote his dumb ass out! "and a state Republicans did win in 2010 – giving control of the legislature, the governor’s office and the choice of chief elections official to the Republicans" Allowing one party or another to choose who the state election officials will be is pure lunacy. Not Party should control any aspect of a states election process without some sort of oversight from the other parties involved, and I don't just mean dems and repubs, all parties should have a hand in the election process. Ali Baba Scott and his 40 thieves run Florida. They wanted to put the fix on for Karl Rove. Well,it didn't work. The President won without Florida (Floridah) The big money got the rug pulled out from under them. Lies,Lies,and Lies cost them the election. The worse was Lying to "Ohio voters" Motor city can tell a flim flam man 5 miles away. The smiling salesman, you know when his mouth moves he's lying. Notice how once again,the majority of the Red counties are in rural areas of Florida. Along the metropolitan Gold Coast, solid Blue. The only major city that went Red was Jacksonville, but that's almost in Georgia. It would seem that the Romney misinformation campaign worked in the rural areas. Smarter city dwellers weren't fooled. If you pull up a map of where people on food stamps live, it's all the Republican counties. Yeah, they hate people depending on the government, except for themselves. That's actually a national trend. Even in blood red Texas the urban areas of Dallas and Houston are predominantly blue. I live in Minnesota, where the red and blue are reversed. most of rural minnesota is Republican, except the poorest northern counties, who are all on government assistance. It's the Minneapolis/St. Paul metro that drives the consistently democratic presidential electoral votes. Oh my God, what a bunch of BS you idiots are posting. The crazy thing is, your fellow liberals on here are too stupid to even realize it. The heavily populated areas in Florida went for Obama because they are full of blacks, Hispanics, and retired Jews from New York. @DaveHarris, you are particularly stupid if you think the red counties are the ones that rely on government assistance more than the ghettos in the very blue Dade county. I'm so happy you are enjoying this. When those people knock on your door you can serve them "Watermellon". I might point out that the blue areas on the Florida map is where the colleges and universities are located. Young students went for Obama as well as women. Hum, does that mean that the highly educated are liberal and tend to vote Democrat or does it mean that whiny old white men won't vote for a black man? Just saying. After all it was the Republicans that wanted to raise the interest on student loans and deny women of their rights. it's so hard for me to believe that after almost fifty years since the civil rights movement, people are still making these racist comments, still afraid of the dark and still making comments about water melon. The racist hates that Obama is president because it reminds them that the majority of America is no longer racist. But so many lag behind. if it where up to me, id give republicans half the country and build a wall across america. let all the repubs move south, and all the dems move north. then peace at last. Well, the haters are really saying, "I'm not much, but at least I'm not_______________. You can fill in the blank with black, gay, fat, hispanic, short, a llibertard, et al. They still are "not much". but they get comfort a putting down others. That's is all these poor people will ever have in their lives since they will never accomplish or have anything. They need our pity. Similar in TX, Checkered Demon. Austin, San Antonio, El Paso, most of Houston and Dallas (and most counties bordering Mexico) are blue here. Yet famers and ranches have seen more aide and benefits under the current administration, including benefits for having wind turbines on their land. Guess those with the oil rigs (also all over rural Tx) won out this time instead though. It's a good thing the country wasn't depending on Florida to decide this. After our Medicare-defrauding governor tried to make it as hard for people to vote as possible, and wasted lots of their time, they still voted for Obama. Big surprise. He'll be surprised in 2014 when he loses his re-election. "Governor" Rick Scott -- and I use the term "governor" very loosely here -- shouldn't even bother running for re-election. He and the Republicans around here are more of a realistic threat to democracy than even the Soviets were in their heyday. Rick Scott got a get out of jail free card. He should be in jail for Medicaid fraud. A tight rope walk with lawyers and judges got him off,but he is still as croaked as a tree branch. Tried to stack the State Supreme Court judges by having them removed for nothing . Smart voters stopped it. He's more dangerous than Allen West,the US congress mental moron. Last we heard,he was asking for a recount. I was hoping the Army would put him under the jail. "He can't handle the truth" Please take away his Colt 1911 ,45cal. . Rick Scott is avoiding prosecution by archaic rules of privilege afforded the Governorship. Here in Florida he cannot even be recalled. 2014, when he is voted out, it's not too late to put him in prison where he belongs. The only revenge is to vote in Democrat's. That will toast him up. I still don't understand why Florida voted for a proven Republican crook while accusing Democrats of being crooked. Rick Scott's company had to pay money back for Medicare fraud yet the people of Florida voted for him unless that election was stolen too. Two words: Katherine Harris. Rick Scott was basically a Tea Party candidate back when the TP was feeling high and mighty. How his supporters could overlook his company's Medicare fraud is an absolute mystery to me. I can hardly wait until 2014 to vote him out and get a decent governor in office. I would take Jeb Bush back--Scott is that bad! McManus, you are completely wrong. FYI, the day of the election it was teacher's planning day, therefore there were no classes on Miami Dade county schools. What do you think, that the people of Florida and the rest of the nation are idiots who will believe the pathetic lies the officials are offering? All stupid excuses. They had plenty of time, after all we had an election in August to change Mayor in MDC... also, they could have simply check with the registered voters in advance what was their language preference (for those who don't know, in MDC is mandatory to post signs in English/Spanish/Creole), and adjust the software that printed the ballot to print only on the language of preference, thus reducing the time to read the draconian ballot they gave the citizens of MDC. I wish the officials had the decency of taking responsibility for their errors instead of blaming on someone else. Lack of planning, or done on purpose to hinder the voter's ability to cast their ballot? I voted early, and on the Department of Elections headquarters there were only 2 computers and one printer. Do you expect Poll worker and the dept of elections in MDC have any thought process! Logic wasn't on the test. Yes. This was done by one party like in Ohio where officials were fired for allowing better practices and not trying to starve the vote! Politics should not be involved in the voting process period. No other major democratic country allows parties to choose election officials!!!!! We need to do the same including redistricting! Banana Republic, Republicans running the ship. Chavez is laughing himself sick. He offered Karl Rove his wizbag of tricks but it didn't work here. He forgot to say"Give them gas at 30 cents a gal like I do" Karl only snickered. So simpleton your for gerrymandering that;s the only way you Republicans can win elections. Just like you did with winning the House that's the ONLY way you guys can win! Our election procedures need a full blown overhaul. The system was fine in 1800's but now with all the resources we have and all the voters the overhaul is no only necessary it is critical --- It should be like a national lottery. They get results within minutes. how about, all Americans get a lottery ticket, they pick the numbers, and who ever wins becomes the president. same with other offices. then no more party politics. lol And campaign funding: How about that anyone can donate to "campaign funding", but it all goes into one big pot, then gets taxed so that 50% of it goes to help pay off the national debt, then the remainder gets split down the middle and handed to each candidate and that's what they've got to operate on, period. If someone then wants to donate ads, cars, etc. directly, they too would have to pay 50% of the value in tax towards the deficit. Just a thought. Said Secretary of State Ken "How-Can-We-Marginalize-You" Detzner: ... ." Here's an idea, Ken: Stop whining about the job you announced to Floridians you wanted and would be competent at [which, arguably, you are incompetent at], and do something we generally call WORK. The story needs to get its facts straight. Florida changed early voting from 14 calendar days prior to the election to 10 calendar days prior. This meant a reduction from 10 voting days to 8 voting days--not from 14 to 8 as stated by the story. This was the third election this year that this has occurred--the Jan Presidential Primary, the Aug Primary, and then the Nov General election. Why this has mystified and challenged any voter, I can't say. But it has been well publicized all year. I heard that next election they are going to have more days to vote, more polling places, and much better voting machines, the only problem is only republicans will be on the ballot, what's up with that!!! The Presidential Primary was only a Republican election - not a Democratic or Independent election - thus only 35% were impacted Oscar you also forgot that they made the ballot 11 pages long. all of which has to be sent by fax when yo vote it took an average of 30 minutes to cast a single vote. Now why would make the ballot 11 pages long instead of using a condensed version like every state with a Democrat for a Govener in the country It is exactly what the republicans did, slow the process down, make it difficult, less days to vots, less places to vote, all to keep people (democrats) from voting. Well that sure did bite them in the a$$ because now Florida didn't even count in the election and Romney lost Florida when eventually it does finish its counting process. A relative told me of no parking where they voted and police issuing tickets to voters parking on the street outside polling place. This was in Miami Dade county. This was true about parking. Many dropped people off and called by cell to pick them up. 5 hrs later,still waiting. The people read the whole ballot. They had sample ballots they could have done at home. Well it's Floridah,right! How can it be more difficult for dems than for rep? Seems everyone votes in the same place. I bet the people in Palm Springs don't vote in the same place as the people in Miami. Get a clue! I would think that any Republican that had to wait in line for 9 hours would have decided to vote Democrat by the time they got their ballot.... That's funny. But in my heavily Republican small town, there was no wait at all. No lines! I could have been out of there in five minutes if I hadn't had to do a provisional ballot (comment #1.18). That would seem to be the whole point. In Republican counties, access was much easier than in Democratic ones. Thanks for illustrating this so well. THANK GOD Florida didn't decide the vote in this election. Al Gore wasn't so lucky. If he were President all this debt could have been diverted. We would not have lost all those GI's and Karl Rove would have gone to jail. Amen Brother JB Amen! And the Bushwacher would have been in some long deserted ranch in T-E-X-A-S! I would think that any Republican that had waited in line for nine hours would have changed his/her vote to Democrat by the time they got the ballot... We need national, non partisan supervision of elections with a mandate to ensure equal access and smooth running-that means early voting, easy registration, same day registration, etc. We need laws that prevent last minute voter purges, and ID laws. No state should be allowed to impose any new regulations until they can prove they have provided the necessary ID to all registered voters. I would be happy to see a non partisan group like The League of Women Voters funded and tasked to oversee our elections. Some would see this done by govt, but you can't keep the politics out of it-the GOP would absolutely try to take advantage of any opportunity to keep voters out of the voting booth. Our voting situation is a national scandal-about the worst we have. This has been going on for years-we have been embarassed in election after election, and still, nothing is done. Congress does have the power to place regulations on Congressional voting. If that's not enough, then we need a Constitutional Ammendment to protect our voting rights. We are not free if we cannot vote. No one should have to stand in line all day to exercise this right. No eligible voter should be refused the right to vote because they don't have the right ID. One solution is to issue a national ID, but we have never been a papers please country. No party should be allowed to game the system to deprive voters of their rights. What we really need is honest politicians (maybe an oxymoron). Here in Washington State, a Republican presided honorably and fairly over the election process for many years. Of course, the national Republican Party repudiated him because he refused to be corrupted by the party. Romney won the Confederacy, what's up with that!!! Google LBJ and the voting rights act. He predicted that his signing of the act would lose the South for the Democratic Party for at least our lifetime. So far, he has been proven 100% right. Voting can be a simple process if that is the desired outcome. In Florida they could extend early voting and absentee voting which would give them plenty of time to reconcile signatures. Of course the operative word is desire a simple process!! The Republican Legislature tried to supress the vote by reducing early voting by half and adding idiotic ballot initiatives; clearly voters got upset by the attempt and went to the polls in greater numbers. Stop Tampering with Voters Rights Why Florida still uses paper ballots and voting machines that have to be alignned properly with the vote cards is far beyond me. My county has 11or 12 thousand people in it and we can afford electronic voting machines with a paper backup. If there are screwups I'm not aware of any. In fact, I don't think anywhere in my state has the idiocy to use paper ballots. Even absentee voting, unless done by mail, is on an electronic voting maching. Get with it Florida. As for Jacksonville going red, it's probably my idiot brother that cost the Democrats as his was probably the last vote counted. Screw electronic voting machines. I know you said "with a paper back-up", but that just emphasizes the point that electronic voting machines can be hacked. You don't think Florida would do that? I've said it before. We need to implement secure electronic voting via the internet. While it may seem remarkable to you and me, not everyone has access to the Internet. Yet. @ Steve, There is no such thing as secure Internet. Electronic voting with paper print out is the best thing, that way there will always be a hard copy of all votes. We use paper ballots, a pencil and an optical scanner here in California. The dumber the system the better. As a recently retired IT security specialist, I would really like to see how you would be able to "securely" vote over the internet. If you can, then you'd be worth millions to many companies. My guess is you're just naive. "Secure" and "via the internet" don't belong in the same sentence, please. It would have to be a combination of sources. US Mail. Biometrics (@MDV?). With modern technology, it can be achieved. How many of you do online banking and are comfortable enough given that level of security? It's only your life savings, after all. Should be part of a national ID system. If you expect people who "look like illegals" to instantly provide proof of citizenship, is there a better way? It's inevitable that it will happen. 3thirty3 IT security I left to the pros as a valuable resource in my means to an end as an embedded control engineer. Like I said above, the inet would have to be just a component. We need to enfranchise ALL Americans. EVERYBODY needs to vote. These people act as though this state, Florida, is the only state in the entire country to have the problems of locations, absentee ballots, early voting etc, etc... After the ridiculous travesty of 2000, a true joke in voting history, you would think they could have gone on a field trip to one of the other 49 states that actually got it right!! I can't believe that the state organization (?!) or the federal system would allow this to continue! The rest of the country looks on with disdain and incredulity - its 2012, you haven't had a chance to get it right yet??? This is what happens in a Banana Republic governed by a known crook voted in office by a gullible electorate who, were it not for Miami, Palm, Broward and Orange counties, could easily pass for a bunch of ignorant geechees. When they had a chance at better options these dumba$$es chose Scott and nincompoops like Alan West. Don't expect improvement in future election cycles. Stupidity tends toward a longer half-life in tropical climates! To be fair to the people of Florida, Governor Rick Scott (the man whom you are referencing as "a known crook") does have an approval rating that is forever hoving in the low 40's or upper 30's. So it's not like Floridians are completely clueless. But he got voted in anyway! My fellow Floridians also elected that do-nothing idiot token-"hispanic" Marco Rubio. f--- this state

<< 971 comments:1 – 200 of 971 Newer› Newest» This story broke my heart. I hope Etta will visit us at and we will ship any order she places for free. We are proud to be "fake" and we are proud that our daughters are learning the value of money and resisting the evils of commercialism and superiority complexes. The American Girl stylist should be ashamed of herself, as should every mother in line who made snide comments to your daughter. I hope that Etta understands that there is NOTHING wrong with her or her dolls, and that the problem lies solely in the need for people with small minds and screwed-up priorities to make themselves feel superior at the expense of a six-year-old. Honestly this is just horrible. If it had been my daughter, and other mothers would have made ugly comments they would have either gotten spit in the face or punched. I cannot believe that. I would have totally been having a few words with those other "mothers". I am just plain disgusted. Being a "daddy" of a 4 year old - I could not have held my tongue - especially to the other haughty women in line. Good job for holding it together. The word I am looking for is "appalled." I cannot believe that this happened; every aspect of this story blows my mind - the rudeness, the haughty responses, the latent sarcasm. And all directed at a child! I hope your daughter feels better (I'd assume she does, since she sounds quite bright), and I hope that the American Girl people might eventually come to their senses and issue a genuine and heartfelt apology, as they should. Oh, how horrible for Etta, and for you! This hurts both my grown-up self and the little girl inside who had fake Cabbage Patch dolls with home-made paper and ribbon outfits. I'm so sorry your daughter learned such an ugly and unnecessary lesson. If those snotty mothers were any kind of mothers at all, they would have backed Etta up instead of trashing her in front of their children. i am the daddy of a 2 year old (almost 3) and i am about to cry reading this. my daughter does not have an american girl doll and now she never will. hopefully word gets out (already has, i picked this up on the consumerist) nowhere on the website for the salon is it stated that the doll has to be an AG doll, only that it is your 'child's favorite' doll. i wonder if their refusal to style etta's baby constitutes fraud? the website is deceptive at best. I read this and almost cried. How anyone could treat a little girl this way is beyond me. Karma has a wonderful way of making things right. I hope that store gets what is coming to them. I am insulted that American Girl did this, That's even less class than Macy's has!!! My heart broke reading this. My favorite doll growing up was a no-name, but it never mattered to me -- kids shouldn't be concerned with the pedigree of their favorite toy. How can someone who works with children and dolls for a living be so thoughtless and cruel? how awful. beautiful child, beautiful doll vs. ugly behavior. thank you for holding it together for you and etta. is there a gracie legal defense fund? it sounds like a defamation of character case. Oh man... Just read this on Consumerist.com. I'm at work right now and I'm trying not to cry. This is reprehensible, detestable, and about 800 other horrible things. I can't even imagine the pain your little Etta must have felt and is probably still feeling. I used to work as a camp counsellor, and helping kids to build their self-esteem is one of the greatest things an adult can do. An "adult" who aids in breaking them down deserves to be shot. Let's hope this spreads (I'll be putting it on my blog) and this "stylist" gets what's coming to her. The whole time I was growing up, I really, really wanted an American Girl doll, but I never was able to save up enough for one. After reading this, I'm glad they never got my money. Pfft! And if I ever have any daughters, they won't be getting their money, either! Ridiculous. Unbelievable! Even though Etta's "fake" doll is not as expensive as those from American Girl, $29.99 is in NO way cheap for a 6 yr old! I can't believe the treatment Etta received, by both the stylist and the Moms in line. If I'd been one of those Moms, I'd have been taking my daughter home after seeing the stylist treat a child that way!! Give Etta a hug for me! How awful. Lucky for you, you've made it onto Consumerist now, and I think you're going to get the apology you so rightfully deserve, along with a freakin' TRUNK full of American Girl dolls. I know it's got to be difficult to explain to a six year old that the problem isn't her, or her hard won doll. My heart goes out to Etta. Having two girls, a four year old and a three year old, I was having to look at the possibility of having these American Girl Dolls very soon. The lesson I'd rather have them learning is the one you taught her, the value of earning something. I can guarantee you that this line of dolls will never have a place in my home or their grandparents home. Wow...that's just so sad. As a girl, I had two American Girl dolls, Molly and Samantha, before they got bought out by Mattel. I was even part of an American Girl fashion show. This is just so wrong. Who are these people that need to make themselves feel superior to a SIX YEAR OLD? Pathetic. Makes you wonder who the real children were in that situation. So sad that the playground antics were coming from the mothers themselves. This American Girl concept is really silly. The only thing American about it is convincing peple to spend twice as much as they need to on an idential product because it has a cool logo. Don't be one of the drones that buy into this nonsense. Etta's already smarter than these people who ganged up (against a six-year-old) to hurt her feelings. And it sounds like she has an awesome mom to help her get through this. I'm just sorry she had to learn the hard way that some people get everything they want without working for it. Tell her she's got a great heart. Well! That real $20 could have bought a real hair-do for Etta's dolly from a REAL hairdresser.... When I read this story, I started to cry. Last year, my daughter attended an American Girl Birthday Party where she brought along her Target doll. Our daughter actually had a "real" American Girl doll at the time of the party. However, we had originally bought her the Target doll when I was in school and couldn't afford a "real" doll. She chose to take the Target doll to the party, instead of the American Girl doll, because it was her 1st and favorite doll. Two other, older girls chided her at the party for not having a "real" doll with her. She cried in the car on the way home. As someone who became interested in the dolls because of the books, and the great, inspirational stories, I am very disappointed by the culture the dolls have created among girls. It appears as if the company who sells these dolls and the parents who have purchased them, have forgotten the value the brand was built upon. As a consumer who spent over $400 in the American Girl Place Store in Chicago last week, it will be very difficult for me to ever spend any money in the store again. I am sincerely sorry for what happened to your daughter and hope that you will receive an apology from American Girl directly. OMFG that's hilarious! I can understand the hairdresser acting like a retard, but the women in line... do people really act like that after the get out of middle school??? Bummer for your daughter, but she probably learned a valuable lesson about what sort of people she should avoid. Dear Etta, Those mean ladies were completely WRONG. Your doll is BETTER than American Girl dolls. Your doll was meant for a great big girl like you to love. Alll American Girl dolls were meant to was to make a big, rich company even richer. The mean ladies are like some of the kids in your class calling other kids nasty names. I think that grown-ups should know better, don't you? I bet that you do. Find something nice for yourself on the Emily Rose website. That is a company that knows that dolls are for loving and playing, not about whose stuff is better. I bet that Mommy can help you find someone to fix your doll's hair...and it will be NICER than some mean old lady at an American Girl store can do. Love, Sara's Mom p.s. Sara doesn't have those dumb dolls either. Congratulations to Etta - she has a mother who cares. I feel bad for the other little girls in line whose mother's are teaching them to be petty, insensitive and consumer-driven. If I had been there with my daughter, we would have turned on our heels and left (but not before letting them know how we felt). I can even understand if they couldn't be as elaborate in the hairstyle - there may be legitimate differences. But, they could have done something. I usually run the American Girl Fashion Show for my charitable organization - we may need to reconsider. Just posting to let you know the Consumerist.com story got posted on reddit.com (and I am sure Digg soon), so you should get plenty of attention and hopefully a response from that store. Reading this made me want to throw up. That poor little girl. Call 310-252-2000, ask for Ellen Brothers - the Executive Vice president of American Girl Brands (owned by Mattel). Tell them what kind of mean people they have working for them and that this is probably not the kind of image they should want to present. Well, I just logged onto the American Girl website and told them to remove the "American" from their name, as it implies a belief that all men are created equal. It just took a few seconds of my time, so I hope you all do the same. Let this company know how much business they just lost! That poor little girl! If I wasn't already appalled at the prices this place charges for the privelege of owning one of their dolls, this definitely convinced me no daughter of mine will ever go near one of their boutiques. I can't believe none of the stylist's coworkers did anything when Etta was crying. :( For shame! This is a hard time to be raising children and I commend you. I don't think I'll ever be able to do it. I hope Etta looks back on this someday and sees that as terrible as the experience was, she was lucky to have the mom she has, and not one of those rich harpies from the line. Up on Digg now, too: Until I see some significant display of remorse and retribution from Mattel, I will be informing AG resellers in my area that the brand is not push-worthy, and leaving them with a good explanation as to why. Etta, you are a sweet girl with a good mom, and because of this, you will not end up like the harpies in the store, attempting to make up for failed lives and empty marriages by being elitist, looking for affection from plastic people and teaching their daughters just what the future holds for them as well. This makes me sick. I don't have any daughters, but I have two son's. If they had been treated like that, I would have knocked a few heads in. I will be happy to send my two sons over there to knock around some of the snobby moms. Hey, their big kids. Give me a break. I think the company did the right thing. If you buy a fake doll, what do you think the company is going to do. Good for them. Either spend the money next time on the real deal or if you bought from Target why not just do the dolls hair at home and be true to the dolls own roots Ugh. Some people think I'm elitist for shopping at Target and would roll eyes at spending $29.99 on a doll. But that's not the point. The point is that the hair stylist was unforgivably rude as were those other moms in line. If AG has some good reason for not styling other doll's hair, it would have been nice to have had it explained in a nicer way. I generally like AG products. However, I never have liked rude people. It's too bad that this hair stylist was the face of AG; it's just hard to separate the two for me now. When AG comes calling to suck up, as they most certainly will now that this story has been Dugg and Reddit'd, I hope Etta will turn up her nose and refuse the bribes they are sure to offer, because she's a REAL American girl, with a REAL doll, and AG is just not good enough for her. I gave the store a call and asked them about this situation. They response I got was heartening. I was immediately put on hold and put in touch with the store manager- not a customer service rep or operator. She stated that they had another call about it and had forwarded it to corporate. She, also, told me that they were looking for the story (I refered her to the consumerist) and invited Etta's mother to call them so they could make this right. The reason they don't style other manufacturer's doll's hair is for fear of damaging it. This make sense. However, yelling at a 6 yo does not. I think Etta's mother should call. They might just make it right... who knows, maybe Etta will get the lesson that sticking up for yourself is a good thing as opposed to learnig to be a victim. Some parts of your story are so uplifting, and I hope you will reinforce to Etta these good things - despite the hideously behaved women in line and the clearly power starved-stylist who did this to your little girl. Here are some great things that stand out: (1) Your little girl earned her own money, and she is only six years old! How clever and industrious she is! (2) Etta BOUGHT HER OWN doll! How proud she should be! That actually makes her doll far more "real" than the other girl's dolls. (3) Etta has an extra-special relationship with her doll, because she CHOSE her as the doll she would love and protect! Other mothers and other girls don't understand her special bond with Gracie, and they never will. (4) Gracie STILL needs Etta's love. Gracie even needs Etta's protection from people who are ignorant. That is what good doll mother's do. You love Etta even though those people were mean to her. Etta can love her doll, and help her doll understand that sometimes...other people are stupid. It is OKAY to still love Gracie! (5) Etta TAUGHT HERSELF TO READ! Hooray for Etta! That means she is a very clever girl. It is SO much better to be CLEVER than to be RICH!!!!! (6) Poor stupid, ignorant people in line who don't know any better! Even though Etta is only six, perhaps she is clever enough to understand that those women in line, and the stylist, are not very smart. (7) Etta seems to be a wonderful and charming little girl. There is a lot to be proud of in how you've raised Etta. Can I make a suggestion? You can help her retain her self-esteem and reinforce the solid values you've been teaching her. Over the next few years, introduce her to the following books (when age appropriate): I) The Velveteen Rabbit Age: Now A stuffed rabbit was not loved because it was too old and worn out. But then, when it was loved anyway, IT BECAME REAL. This is PERFECT for your daughter, right now. II) The Little Princess Age: 7 or 8 A little girl is good, pleasant and honest even as she is treated badly by those around her after her father goes away. She's also smart. She doesn't do anything she feels would be wrong to herself or others, and stays true to her own values. It's a great story about retaining your integrity, even when those around you have lost there's. (I think there is also a doll in this story.) III) The Wolves of Willoughby Chase age: 7 or 8 This is a book about two little girls who use their wits to outsmart all the evil rich people around them and save their own lives. It's scary, but great! IV) Little House on the Prairie Age: 8-9 Remember Nelly Olson??? And how Laura was the good one, while Nellie and her mom were conniving, money grubbing freaks. Perfect for teaching Etta she can be her best self, and no one has the right to make her feel bad about it. V) Nancy Drew Books - either the new or the old series Age: 9 - 10 Nancy rocks! She solves mysteries and kicks butt. She's a good person. She shows girls that being clever and smart allows you to think beyond those around you and that thinking for yourself is a worthy endeavor and the least you owe yourself. It sounds like you're a really great mom. It makes me feel horrible to imagine how you felt when you found out what happened. Keep up the good work. Etta may encounter self esteem challenges, but she's lucky to have you there fighting for her. Oh my goodness...that's heartbreaking. How can people be so horrible! I'm not surprised, really. just disappointed. That stylist should be ashamed of herself. And those other mothers? WOW. They really must have low self esteem to make themselves feel good by putting down a child.. PS Shame on the poster who called the hairdresser a "retard" Talk about being childish & ignorant!! I grew up admiring other girls' American Girl dolls. However, my mother was very smart (Master's degree in child development) and very caring, so she never wasted money on dolls. She bought me beautiful dolls, but not American Girl dolls. Now, I am a mother of a nine-month-old girl. Thank you for sharing this story with us, the parents of the world. Companies that don't know how to treat human beings should not get our money. Disgusting. I hope AG sends over some free product and Etta accepts it to donate to children not nearly as lucky as she is. I'd bet the local women's shelter could put some AG stuff to good use. I'm so sorry this happened. This is such a horrible story. I'm just really so.. I can't believe this happened. I'm so sorry and I wish there was something I could do. This story made me very sad. I'm kinda curious how you have a word for word account of the other mothers' comments. Was your 6 year old taking notes? I don't really see anything wrong with a company choosing to service its own products and not others. If you bought a fake Coach purse, do you think a Coach store would embroider your initials on it for you? I feel bad for your daughter that she had an experience like this, but I don't really agree with your reaction. This is absolutely disgusting, and a horrible example of how low our society's mentality has come. Thank you for sharing this with the online community, as it will make people aware of this and will let them know not to go here. I hope your PageRank shoots through the roof and whenever people Google for "American Girl Place," they find your post first. People these days have no manners and no class. Rationalize all you like about fake Coach bags and whatnot, but this just impoliteness for no good reason whatsoever. And to a 6 year old girl? Come again? I just went through my daughter's book collection and threw them away. I told my daughter at Christmas I wouldn't buy her an American Girl doll. They were ridiculously priced. Neither of my girls will have those books anymore. They can read Little House on the Prairie books if they want, but there is no way I would support that company after reading this garbage. Sorry, but I am afraid I may have popped one of those mother's in their cosmetically altered noses if it had been my daughter. Guess I am not as sophisticated as those NY ladies. They don't style other doll's hair for fear of damaging it? Bullshit. It's DOLL HAIR. And honestly, how hard woould it have been to take the$20 and put a bow in Gracie's hair or something to make a six year old happy? Especially when she started crying. I have a two year old girl and that breaks my heart. We're also trying to raise her to be non-materialistic and this is the kind of stuff I fear. So much crap out there now trying to get our kids to buy, buy, buy. Etta sounds better than 9 million American Girl dolls. Poor baby. Those other moms should be shot, too. Rationalize? Pointing out the obvious fact that not only *can* companies choose to only service their own products but that most do is rationalizing? Why does nobody here want to call Etta's mom on the fact that she had to know she was sending her daughter into a potentially bad situation. At the very least, she couldn't bother to call and verify that they would service any doll in their proprietary doll store? I certainly would have done that for my daughter. The feeling I get from this letter is that its unlikely a 6 year old - while she "cried and cried and cried" - was taking a whole lot of notice of what was being said to her. I have to wonder if Etta's mom isn't taking some poetic license. It's also a little tough to believe that in an entire group of mothers - women who have and love children - not one would have shown even an ounce of sympathy for a distraught 6 year old girl. Let alone have several actually pounce on a bawling child. My take - Etta's mom feels bad for not being able to protect her daughter from a dissapointment and she's trumping up the story to create hostility where there was none. I feel bad for the kid - really I do. Maybe I'm just one of those worrier moms, but I would have called to make certain they would do it for non-American Girl dolls. After all, she's going to the American Girl store where they sell American Girl dolls (for large sums of money). Maybe Mom should have anticipated that something could have gone wrong and double-checked. I would have. This is so sad and breaks my heart. The other mothers there should be ashamed of themselves. Some values they are teaching their kids. My hats off to you for teaching Etta whats really important. These other mothers and the people at the salon make me sick. I promised my stepdaughter she could get an American Girl doll and one outfit for her birthday this year. She has been into these dolls for a few years now and is very excited about her birthday present. I'm not going to break my promise, but after that, we're done. I'm sorry that Etta and her mother had this bad experience. And regardless of whether or not AG Place is justified in their policies, whatever...in this case, it's a crappy company policy, and I don't need to give any more money to a store with a crappy company policy. That's terrible....I would have told that sylist exactly where to go.... funny in this age of social networking how a poor brand experience can snowball. hope they make amends to you and your daughter. When I was nine, I saved all my money for a year to by an AG doll. We lived on the west coast, far from any hairstyling experience, but I recived a doll hair care kit from a loving aunt. After I washed my AG doll's hair with it, I was silly enough to try to do the same thing with my barbies. The hair clumped up and the only solution was to have a bunch of butch barbies. The AG employee probably should have been more sensitive, but imagine how horrible it would have been to have Etta's favorite doll ruined. This story is a good example of how two wrongs don't make a right. Etta's Mom: Please, you seem bright, but surely you had the sense to expect that the AG event was for AG dolls. Maybe they were doing it to market to non-AG customers, I don't know, but a reasonable person would have called to make sure. Lastly, your story lacks some detail which, to me, makes me wonder how honest it is versus an emotional reaction to a bad experience. Hair Stylist: For the love of g*d, you know you are working with children for the day. Couldn't you have been a bit more respectful? OK, I'll buy off on the idea you don't want to service the doll because it isn't an AG product or some fear that you might damage it. I tend to be blunt and insenstive, but even I would have gone with: My! I've never seen a doll like this. Her hair is so different from what I am used to working with. I don't want to ruin your friend's hair, so how about I just put in this bow to make it a little prettier. And then NOT take the $20. AG: You stage an event for children yet [apparently] hire people that are not capable of dealing properly with them. Shame on you! You should have a list of action items coming from this experience, including but not limited to: 1. Make sure events have appropriate staff. 2. Make sure events CLEARLY state what is and is not allowed 3. Damage control. Find this girl, make it right. By right means an apology and letting the family know what you are going to do to make sure this doesn't happen to anybody else. 4. PUBLICALLY respond with the same. Admit your errors, show your remorse, correct the problem, let everyone know how you corrected the problem. I would imagine that her friends mom related what the other mothers said to her. While i can appreciate the AG might not want to style the hair of other "none-AG" dolls, there is still no excuse for how rude the people were to the little girl or for everyone elses comments. It's terrible that those people were so heartless towards your daughter. I'll never understand how people can be cruel to children, especially at a place that's designed for them. American Girl has been ridiculously overpriced forever, and only snooty obnoxious girls ever had them when I was a kid. Your Etta is better off without any of those pretentious dolls anyway! (Read this on The Consumerist) How awful for your daughter (and you!) to experience! I hope their response is timely and apologetic. The other mothers in line that "tsk tsk'd" should be ashamed of themselves. Unfortunately, this is a lesson that kids get to learn over and over again growing up. I have two wondergirls, ages 6 and 8. They both have American Girl dolls and accessories, which are very nice, but very expensive. Their mother (my ex) and her family have this have to have the best of everything attitude. What is wrong with Barbie or something similar? The conduct of the stylist was reprehensible to say the least. My oldest daughter would have let her have it and I wouldn't have said a word. I'm questioning why anyone would have brought a third party product in there anyway unless they advertise it that way. 3 of my daughters have AG dolls. In fact they have multiple ones. Their grandmothers love them and buy them mostly. My daughters love their dolls and honestly, all of the Bitty babies are very worn and well-loved. This story broke my heart and I hope Etta has recovered from it and is feeling proud of her doll. She has every right. I would encourage you to help your child though stand up for herself by standing up for her. Talk to AG if they approach you - allow them to try to make amends. Why? Because it teaches her that she deserves/derserved better and it teaches her that her mother isn't closed minded. Even though I wouldn't want anything AG in my home after this, I still think AG should send this little girl a doll and TONS of expensive accessories as a way to say they're sorry. Then her REAL doll (the Target one) would have a friend to play with. Was any effort made by Mom to contact the store? My experience, as an uncle of an AG fan, is that they have impeccable Customer Service...but to get it sometimes you have to speak to a manager. It should have been adressed with management by her friend on the spot. Sounds like Mom is reacting to hearsay - I find it hard to believe all the direct quotes from the Mom when there was no mention of the hairstylists name (bet they didn't get that important detail!)-and Mom wasn't even there! Why bash AG because they are expensive? It's a wholesome product I'm willing to pay for because of the great educational/historical content AND their great customer service. AG would have better been served by the Mom or her friend working immediately and directly with AG in New York to rectify this together rather than whining about it hereand prolonging the poor experience of her daughter. Besides, if the associate was rude or curt, they could have addressed her performance in the store by now. Be a more responsible parent, Mom, and partner directly for solutions - especially when your little girl's feelings are at stake! I'm sure AG would take your complaint seriously (especially if you can recall the rude associates name) Heartbreaking story. But, thank you for sharing it on the internet. This will make a big impact on the company. It was mentioned on Digg.com , and has gotten alot of attention. Thank you I do think they are nice dolls, if horribly overpriced. I would never spend that much on ANY toy. I am heartbroken for your daughter and I hope the stylist was fired and that you are pursuing this story with the company and the media. The only tiny excuse I can find for them is that if their dolls really are high quality and they are using heat or something to do the hair they might damage other brands. But that in no way excuses the way she was treated. If that's the case it should be very clearly noted in the store, on the party contracts, in the invitations. That just sucks. Oh how awful. I remember spending hours as a little girl sifting through the American Girl catalogue daydreaming about owning a Felicity doll, but my family could never afford to get me one. I think that I turned out to be a pretty balanced woman! I remember the other girls being very elitist about their AG dolls... I will link to your blog on mine. Hey Anonymous, Perhaps the mother doesn't know your name, I mean, the stylist's name. Instead of standing behind AG like a blind automaton and blaming the mother or the child (you suck) perhaps you should send a little empathy their way. This kind of thing happens all the time, everywhere. It's bound to when you wrap up so much importance on the price of something. This kind of thing should be brought to light, it's unacceptable for people to behave this way. It's far from whining you pompous ass. Besides, I doubt AG and their customer service could heal the scar on this poor kid's self-esteem. Coming here, saying what you said...you're throwing gas on the fire. Good job dumbass. Wholesome product? They sure hire really rude people to promote this 'Wholesome' product. Anyone ever have manners in this snotty business of doll hair stylists? I suggest you all boycott this place. They will pretty much do everything to get your attention due to the bad press that this will bring up. 20$ buys a lot of better things than a doll haircut in Target. I bet someone here can do a better job than those stylists. As someone who has 9 American Girl dolls and who has had nothing but EXCELLENT customer service, I wonder if the stylist simply refused to style the doll's hair because she was afraid of damaging it. That said, she should have said it in a nicer way. And just brushed it and put a bow on it for free. I went to American Girl Place Chicago last year and was treated very well. They made a vegetarian platter just for me and even comped a meal when they were out of an item. I had an extremely pleasant experience to say the least. Please do not penalize American Girl for what the other moms said- or for what one unprofessional stylist did. Hi Horrible mom. I just read this story, and would be glad to send your daughter a soccer ball. Doll are overrated--especially the overpriced American girls. As the father of an 11 year old girl, I'm proud that my girl would rather play sports than dolls. Contact me and I'll have a ball shipped from amazon. I laughed when i read this. HAHAHHAHAHA Just canceled a decent sized order from AG. I MAY reorder if that "hairstylist" gets canned and AG more than makes up for it with the little girl. BTW, can you really be uppity if you style doll's hair for a living?? I have no children or dolls for that matter but this is reprehensible. But then again, its not even the "rich culture," that perpetuates these ideas. In the adult world, this is no different than women who expect (or nearly demand) "real" diamonds or a diamond at all for their engagement rings. Sure, many will say the size doesn't matter, and to some it may not, but nearly all women want a "real" diamond. Because a "fake" one (though chemically identical) is somehow less valuable. Those little girls, the ones that buy the cheap dolls or the expensive name brand ones, all get brainwashed later by Debeers. I'm sure all the women deploring this treatment of a child are hypocrtis when is comes to themselves. "Fake" diamonds are like having a cash bar at a wedding, no matter what the reason, people are going to call you cheap behind your back. Cheers ladies! I just updated the external links on the American Girl page on wikipedia. See here: Mark me down as someone that will think twice before I take my daughter there again. We live in Highland Park, IL not too from Chicago. I have spent about $500 in their store downtown for different items and events for my 4 year old daughter. The entire episode makes my skin crawl and I really don't think I can ever go back there again. This is not the lesson I would want my daughter to take away and had I been in line I would have left with you! I hope someone from the company sees the damage this has done. It's pathetic. I sent a email to corporate over my disgust of their treatment. I hope they make amends or that this story diminishes business for unexcusable actions. Heidi - As someone who owns 9 absurdly overpriced dolls that were made in China (along with the "fake dolls"), I'm not sure you are qualified to criticise. Speaking as the dad of a newborn girl, I will never, ever spend a dime at American Girl. This is just reprehensible. They don't deserve your business! If the stores policy is not to work on non-branded dolls, then so be it. But to harangue and insult a little girl is sub-human. She should be fired and blacklisted. Perhaps someone should remind that woman that her job is STYLING DOLL HAIR and that is about the most useless thing a person can do on this planet. mailto:service@americangirl.com the stores service email we should all email this link to tell thier employees are pieces of shit my mother and dad were REAL hairstylists and though are both deceased, my mother would have fixed that little dolls hair like it was going to a hairshow. and if she did indeed damage it, she would have bought her another, WHY you ask would she have replaced it? because unlike AG, she knew children were worth EVERYTHING and our worlds most precious gift. more than a mere commodity to extract funds from, or to build your business on by offering "snotty" dolls for RICH people. I'm the father of a little girl and I'm blown away by what Etta experienced. That's just appalling. I will never buy one of these dolls for my daughter, and I will make sure that I let the company know this. Wow...just wow.... This story is too perfectly sad to not get picked up by all the news media next week. But now I am afraid for my own daughter's. @ anonymous You were probably one of the selfish idiots standing in line spouting ignorant comments! 2007 Real Girl of the Year Award American Girl is looking for everyday girls who are just as caring and compassionate as our Girl of the Year, Nicki. If your daughter’s brightest moments are achieved when helping others in ways both big and small, we want to hear about it! Your daughter is heads and shoulders above whoever they pick. I think you should enter just to get your story seen by someone in the company I've seen AG products and have thought about purchasing them for my children and will not. I do not want to partake in this kind of culture where a doll is a status symbol by the very virtue of its name. Dear Etta, Your mommy seems really clever and smart, so I'm sure you are too. That's why, when you grow up, you will have a much more important and glamorous job than "doll hair stylist," and you will be able to buy as many American Girl dolls as you want. But you probably won't want any - because, do you want to know a secret? American Girl dolls are not that great! Do you know why they have hair stylists for them? It's because their hair gets tangled all the time! And also, you can't cuddle with them! Emma, my favorite doll, is not an American Girl doll, even though I had some of those when I was a little girl. Emma is MUCH more special, just like your Gracie. And Emma is here in my bedroom - but my old American Girl dolls are in a box in the basement. Etta, you're going to be a great young lady one day, and when that happens, I hope you still have Gracie in your bedroom - she's a keeper! :) I hate American Doll. I have heard that their dolls leak toxic chemicals from the plastic and some little girls are getting sick but they pay off the parents - this is bound to come out now. If AG thinks Etta's doll is "not real" they are delusional. I will never let my daughters shop there. Ever! PLEASE enter your story at the American Girl 2007 Real Girl of the Year award... To everybody talking about how this is a crappy company policy: Wouldn't you all also be angry if the stylist had styled the doll's hair, and it had, say, fallen out as a result? AG doesn't know how these dolls are made, so they can't be certain that they won't damage the dolls by styling them. It's not a crappy company policy. To the stylist: I understand that you may have been having a bad day, but you are being paid partly to be nice to children. Plus, handling this incident the way you did was just plain mean. No cookies for you. To the author of the original post: You don't mention going to the management. Personally, I think you should have- what if the stylist was mistaken, for instance? Even if she wasn't, they should have been able to explain the reason for their policy and possibly comfort your daughter in the process. we have 2 of these "real" dolls sitting in the closet - they were gasp - hand me downs from my little sister to my daughters. Guess what? they cant play with them because they are ridiculously expensive and if they destroy them my sister will cry.. now i feel like giving them to my dogs to bury in the back yard. I wish i was there to beat down every single one of those vicious customers that felt the need to make it a more horrible and embarrassing experience. Shame on every one of those rotten women I very much feel for Etta, and hope she realizes that worth comes not from the money one has or the objects one is able to buy, but from one's ability to love, to be kind, and to respect the beauty in life. Material possessions come and go, but quality of heart will never desert you. To all those who left comments such as -"You wouldn't expect Coach to embroider a fake purse", etc..You are missing the point. Adults choose "fake" name brands as a status symbol, to appear more affluent than they are. (The way people buy name brands like LV, Coach, etc.. simply because they want people to know they have money)--From the description of how the mothers in the AG store behaved they fall in that category. Etta did not choose her doll in order to adhere to any falsely set standard of affluence. She chose her doll because it was special to her. She earned her money, chose her doll, and that doll was greatly loved. What the stylist did was intolerable. Anyone can braid a doll's hair and put in a few ribbons without damaging the doll. Anyone who can't should be prevented from having any job that requires the use of their hands. Furthermore, it is not the stylist's place or that of the other mothers to chide or deride that child. One rude blogger asked if the daughter was "taking notes", and implied the mother was lying. Any child who is treated in such a way will for a long time remember word for word what people say at the time. Children have remarkable memories for what adults say in normal situations. (We've all encountered situations where a little one accurately repeats a statement made by a parent at an inopportune or embarassing time) For those mothers of children with American Girl dolls- Your daughter could probably care less about Mattel or the AG company. Your daughter's concern is HER doll. Once it was taken out of the store, it ceased to be American Girl ---, it became Cindy, Mandy, etc... Above all, it is important to do what is right. My mother's favorite doll was a large baby doll that my grandfather won in a crane game. That doll was loved by me as well as all my cousins, and is now being loved by by nieces and nephews although she is much worn. I always say I am going to write a letter when I see a story like this, but never do. This one got me so fired up, I just sent an e-mail to Amercian Girl. That "stylist", and I use that term loosely, should be ashamed of herself. Please tell Etta that there are people out here reading her story that care and we are making our voices heard. I would say they should give her a free doll, but who wants that American Girl trash anyway! I can say for sure that my daughter will never get an American Girl doll from her Dad. PS(I'm the one who said "Wouldn't you all also be angry if the stylist had styled the doll's hair, and it had, say, fallen out as a result?", etc)-). By the way, for what it's worth, unless Etta's mother told her what the women in line were saying, I highly doubt she even heard. Children who are 'crying and crying and crying' tend to be oblivious to things like that, I've found. Not that this makes what they said any more acceptable (Assuming it wasn't exaggerated), but I'm just throwing that out. i can understand how this would be upsetting. however, manufacturers tend to promote their own 'boutique' (brands and people pay extra money for them) because there's an exclusivity and sense of worth (or self-importance). often times there are even actual qualitative differences. if you brought your ford to a ferrari mechanic you'd get the same reaction. if you brought your mutt to a shitzu dog show you'd be received the same way. maybe the website was misleading...but did anyone else bring a cheap knock-off doll to the american girl." Well said. Let's remember that they are, afterall, just dolls to the kids. There are children out there who think themselves of less worth because they can't afford even the "fake" $29.99 doll. It's not about the doll. It's about the grown-up behaving badly. And I've had grown-ups behave badly and give me rotten customer service in Wal-Mart, Target, and the Dollar Store. There is enough snotty, snooty, and crappy behavior to go around in every socio-economic level. Been to a Wal-Mart lately and watch how many parents hit their kids? The wealthy folk don't have the corner on that market by a loooonnnngg shot. If I were going to not patronize a store just because I had one bad customer service at some point or because some of their clientel behaved badly, I'd have nowhere to shop but my corner grocery store. screenshots or it didnt happen Wow... As a 27 year old man planning for fatherhood in the near future I suddenly realize that I'm way out of touch. I still can't quite wrap my head around the concept of a "fake doll". I have to put in quotes because it feels so absurd. Be glad this lesson happened so early for your daughter. I'd imagine most non-comforming or worse yet, poor people don't realize how many people judge and qualify other human beings by their brand value until Junior High School. That is just terrible. How could anyone do that to a kid? I cannot believe what snobs that women and those mothers were. Tell Etta that what makes a doll real is how much it's loved, not how much it costs. And she can proudly say she earned the doll herself, rather than just have it handed to her. )." Yes. Please please people. Throwing away your children's toys and books to prove a point is just as cruel if not worse than what that stylist did. Don't give that one woman's one bad deed so much power. Good lord. This broke my heart!!! I cannot believe grown women (And MOTHERS) acted like that! My husband told me about this blog entry and I just had to read it for myself. (he was just as upset as I was!) I have a 4 year old daughter and she hasn't discovered American Girl dolls yet, But she will NOT have one now! I'll be buying from "emily rose customer care" for her generosity! I create custom Boutique clothing for girlie girls, and I would be so glad to send Etta a free twirly skirt. My DD Loves them! Just visit my website and click "contact us" to the left and let me know her favorite color combos and the size she needs! Jenn To Jennifer, Heidi, and others showing us the other side of the story, thank you. From what I've seen, the American Girl is only supposed to style American Girl dolls because the hair is different. The "Barbie" anecdote seemed to confirm this. To everyone finding it easy to hate and who are atacking American Girl, owners of American Girl Dolls, customers of the salon (not the "rude" ones; just the normal ones), people with money and/or people who live in NY's Upper East Side: OK, I see your point a bit. THe hair stylist was pretty insensitive to the girl (assuming Etta's Mom got everything right) and the mopthers were misbehaving (again, assuming everything was reported accurately, etc. However, be careful you don't turn into elitists, too. Not that you are, but one doesn't need money to be a snob or elitist. One is also an elitist of they automatically assume they're better than those with money. Just keep that in mind. Thank you for the time you sacrificed in order to read this comment. It is much appreciated.. Oh my god. This is insane. Those other moms should be slapped, or something equally painful that doesn't teach violence. I had no idea those stupid dolls had a background of "inspirational" stories attached to them. Screw it, they should all be slapped. This is disgusting. I hope Etta learns from this that in life some people are mean, and that what mean people say is not always correct, and certainly not worth listening to. American Doll sucks and if I ever have a daughter, or a son who likes dolls, they will never get one red cent of my money. Just disgusting. @Anonymous, ." How can this possibly be bad? I think I know... Little girls don't understand or give a damn about branding without mommy's influence. These AG dolls aren't marketed to the girls, they're marketed to the mommies. Mommies who project themselves onto their daughters. A media backlash would be bad because it would hurt mommy to see her Pre-K give up AG doll on principle through that amazing innocent clarity of child. As a result, mommy with her talent for projection will then project her own shame (at being in at least one way, less mature than her child) into anger...Anger at the people who share her daughter's clarity. Sad. ." The world is a lot bigger than this blog, lighten up. Just think how much time and energy YOU wasted by reading and replying to this silly, possibly fake story about a doll when you could have been fighting against real injustice, pedophiles and muderers. Better get going. Snobbery in the dollhouse? Wow! Consumerism has taken us to a new low. Affulence and decadence is such a wonderful combination. Reading the comments such as the one from Anonymous (March 23, 2007 9:42 PM) makes me want to puke. "These AG dolls aren't marketed to the girls, they're marketed to the mommies." Who are we kidding? Of course products are marketed to children. I haven't heard of half the kids crap out there until my kids saw it on commercial televsion at one of their friends' houses or heard about it from other kids at school. If American Girl wasn't so big a deal to this mom and little girl, then why such a big deal over buying the fake to begin with? You can buy even less expensive dolls. Heck, you can MAKE your own dolls with a bit of fabric, needle and thread and the kids can love them just as much. There are plenty of gently-loved used dolls out there every Saturday during yard-sale season. And where I come from Target is just as much a brand name as American Girl or Mattel or Barbie or Waldorf. It's just a doll, no matter the cost or name brand. And just a doll who needed a $20 hairstyle. Puh. Lease. Any lessons about "real" and "fake" and value and ethically spending money were blown for me right there. $20!!!!!!? Anonymous said...? March 23, 2007 9:54 PM For all we know this is exactly what she did say. The mother wasn't even there!! She didn't hear what was said. It's sad I went back & read a couple of the blogs earlier posts, she talks about being bored by her kids & ignoring them . And in this supposed incidence she wasn't with the child. I tend to want to hear the other side of this. I doubt we heard the WHOLE truth! Something I find rather ironic about the whole thing is that American Girl was the title of the magazine for Girl Scouts of America more than 40 years ago. How is this kind of behavior going to teach our daughters any kind of worthy lesson? It doesn't teach value. It doesn't teach kindness. It most certainly doesn't even teach good manners, which seem to be in very short supply these days. This is a perfect example of how so many companies have no clue when it comes to customer service. Etta was a customer, and was treated most shabbily, as if she didn't belong in the establishment. She was ridiculed, humiliated, and worst of all, sent away without the service she came for. A smart stylist not only would have performed the style, but would have taken note that Gracie was not an actual, factual "American Girl" doll, and through creative (read: sneaky) conversation with Etta, would determine that cost was the issue. A quick call to her manager would procure a coupon for 20% off on any AM doll of her choice. (A guess -- I used to work at a retail store, and could give 10% off on anything on my own initiative, calling the item "damaged". More required a manager.) This story is enough of a tear jerker that any manager would be an idiot if he didn't see the opportunity, not just to get the $20 for a style, but another price for a new doll. Etta was a golden opportunity -- the retail equivalent of the kitten with a hurt paw -- and these idiots kicked her instead of cuddling her! All it would have taken was a little incentive, a coupon, a little good treatment, and Etta and her Mom would not only have been happy with Gracie's hairstyle, but perhaps happy AM customers for life. But no...they couldn't just be unhelpful. They had to be unhelpful snobs. Now Etta's Mom wouldn't touch an AM product while wearing a space-suit. I feel for Etta -- she was treated horribly. I think the company deserves anything that comes to it for being so galactically stupid as to allow such a lapse of customer service to occur. The customer isn't always right...but the customer is always the one paying the bills. And THAT means you look for ways to make the situation right -- every time -- or someone else will. Second and Third everyone's comments about this is horrible. I got the American Girl (AG makes me think Alberto Gonzalez) dolls right around when they first came out. My grandmother "bought" (she was elderly so I'm pretty sure my mom organized the "purchase") Kirsten for me. I loved the books (my mom's family is 100% swedish so her books connected on many levels), used the St. Lucia costume-kids version to dress up for St. Lucia day, named my first cat (and eventually the second cat) after Kirsten's Missy. I got Samantha and Molly as well (Molly esp. because my mom was growing up around Molly's time period). I loved these dolls so much and learned so much from them and the other products surrounding them. I still think that the dolls are useful and fun. Living in Chicago, I went to the American Girl store. It was quite impressive but I also realized that only the original dolls (or all the historical dolls) had any value to them. The top two floors full of "modern day" clothing and the salons... silly and frivolous. If and when I have a child, I'll most likely buy her Kirsten. The other newer stuff... nah. I like what one person said in a comment... as soon as the doll leaves the store it's not an American Girl doll anymore. It's the child's. And yeah... I find myself defending the dolls a lil' bit more than I'd like. Wish the company hadn't become retarded and conivingly enterprising. This makes me sick to my stomach. I cannot believe how rude these people were to Etta. I'll tell you one thing, when my daughter is old enough she won't be getting an American Girl doll. I just placed a substantial order with American Girl and am considering calling back and placing another!! You people are nuts!! Confronted with a similar situation, I would find it nearly impossible not to point out to this "stylist," who refused to do my child's doll's hair, that she was, in fact, doing dolls' hair!! It's unfathomable to me that anyone would make an issue out of where the doll came from! But particularly a doll hair stylist! Growing up, my daughter was not one of the kids with money. To say we had very little would be putting it mildly. She did get an AG doll, though. She wanted one SO badly, so her father and I saved for months. She got that doll for Christmas, and she was SO happy. She loved and adored that doll for years. I believe this story. The reason I do is because American Girl put on a tea party at the local country club. My daughter wanted to go, begged to go, and nearly exploded with happiness when I said yes. We went, and honestly, the women there made me ill. I was there to have fun with my daughter. We dressed up and she insisted on wearing an Easter bonnet... and she and I had fun. But the obnoxiousness of the women in that room stuck with me for quite awhile. The AG Crowd are elitists. My daughter is 17 now, and even though she may have a good Coach collection, and doesn't feel 'less than' when it comes to money any longer - she still took time to donate her AG Doll and clothing to a child she happened to know of who wouldn’t be able to get one of her own. Poor little Etta. I echo the 'broken heart' sentiments. It’s simply unthinkable for someone to treat a child that way.. Anonymous said.... March 23, 2007 10:33 PM Well said. About the first sensble post I've read regarding this. I'm so appalled @ the "Adults" calling names, etc. You're no better than the stylist, If this actually occured. Nordstrom's will tailor clothes, even if you don't purchase your clothes there. You have to pay for it, but they will accept clothes from other merchandisers. I don't understand why this establishment would refuse business b/c the doll was a different brand. . . I always thought American Dolls were scary looking anyway. (I also don't think it is appropriate to use the term "retard".) I'm not familiar with Nordstom's tailoring regulations...but our local department store "leases out " the tailoring...not actually owned by the store...so perhaps that would have something to do with it. Our society has become so sue happy...I understand companies erring on the side of caution. Especially we a young girls beloved doll. I agree though that I'm not 100% comfortable that this took place as described. After my initial shock, disgust and heartbreak, I thought of this: The other girls in line all had pretty much the same doll. Sure they had different hair, eyes, clothes etc. but the were the same. The only really special, individual doll in the WHOLE place was Gracie. I'd rather be one of a kind than one of the crowd and I hope Gracie agrees ;) I hope your little girl is feeling better. It's hard to explain that level of meanness to anyone, much less a child. This 6 year old will never forget this, and I sincerely hope that she goes on to great success in her future life at the expense of these neuveaux riches bigots. An absolute disgrace.. My heart aches for your poor little girl. I have emailed AG and told them I am appalled that their representative would be so cruel to a child, and that they can expect no business from me or many of the parents who were linked to your blog from our parenting board. I would like to suggest a storybook that might bring some small comfort to Etta: "The Best Loved Doll" by Rebecca Caudill. Dear Etta, You are so big and smart. You learned to read by yourself?! I have 4 little girls that always wanted an American girl doll, but just like you they would have to give up all their presents for Christmas and birthday to get just one for the four of them to share. They decided that one doll for all four to share wasn't really worth it, just like you thought it was too much. My daughter Danilla bought a baby from her own money she earned by raising chickens. My other daughter Precious bought a Barbie from the money she got for her birthday. Santa brought Lucy a little bitty baby and Aukxsona a baby that drinks a bottle. They don't have "real" dolls either. You see, they are smart like you...they know those "real" dolls aren't worth so much money they couldn't each have a doll. They also know that those dolls are just the same as all the dolls they got or bought on their own. The only difference is the name. So don't worry Etta, lots of little girls have dolls that aren't "real" according to the hair stylist. Just because the one lady said it wasn't real, doesn't make her right. If you ask any of my little girls if their dolls were "real" they would say YES! They love their dolls because they are special to them. The hair stylist was too old to see how special your baby was to you. Only another little girl with a special doll like yours could understand. So Etta, remember your doll IS real. More real because you saved the money to pick her all by yourself. Also, remember that lots of little girls have real dolls just like you all over America...and these are what REAL American dolls are...dolls for REAL American children that are special just like you. Bless you Dody are. I'm not getting this. Why do people need to put down the other little girl's beloved dolls to make "Gracie" and Etta feel better? These are also innocent children with their very special dolls. Why this "my doll is better than yours because it's more fake or more real or expensive or not as hoity-toity or made with organic whole-grain flax or whatever"? This is so typical of our society: Build ourselves up by putting others down. Not playing nice, people. And not a way to teach anyone self-worth. "I'm bettter because you're worse." I have never been so enraged over a children's doll before. This is absolutely disgusting... I can't even imagine an adult doing such a thing to an innocent child like that. It's one thing if that the stores policy strictly enforces rules against (I refuse to say "Fake") dolls other than American Girl, but it's another thing for her to literally throw it back in your daughters face and ruin something she cherished. I am truly disgusted, and simply cannot believe people like that can live with themselves. I can only say that I have great respect for you to leave those !@#$* mothers standing. Dear Etta I do not know you but I am very proud of you! Using your own money for a special doll. YOur doll is " real " because you love her. This should not have happened to you or any other little girl. You hold your head high and go on loving your doll. To Etta's mom You must be very proud of your daughter, how happy the both of you must have been at Target when she paid for her special doll all by herself. I do not know how to help her broken heart but I think you will find a way. How sad are world is these days. Give your daughters an extra hug for all of us who do not know her but are proud of her. I'm very sorry to read about your Etta's experience at the American Girl Place, and I wish there were some sort of goodies I could send her like the ones some of the retailers have been offering. I will be e-mailing the company, though, as a one-time customer appalled at their lack of appropriate customer service. I do, however, encourage Etta to stay strong and tap into her creativity when playing dolls. Since my family couldn't afford all the expensive outfits and accessories for my Molly doll (which I was VERY lucky to have at all) my mother instead taught me to sew, and together we made her dresses and pajamas. I also used to make Molly food and accessories out of clay. I'm in college now, but I still enjoy making doll outfits and designing my own dolls. Right now I'm making a lot of Greek mythology characters out of Barbies, but later this year one of my friends and I have plans to make Beth and Amy from Little Women out of some of Gracie's cousins. I feel the American Girl company, especially since it got bought out by Mattel, has placed less and less of an emphasis on history and creativity over time. In Meet Samantha, the first American Girl book I ever read, Samantha gives up her nice, new doll to her friend Nellie, a disadvantaged girl who works as a maid for Samantha's neighbors. If Mattel is going to market these dolls based on the values present in the books, they should perhaps read the books first. Etta, you and Gracie are beautiful and you know that is the truth. Those ladies who told you that Gracie wasn't good enough only like to have money. They don't know how you feel, because you love Gracie. Now, you saved up for Gracie and were you proud of yourself when you had enough money to buy her at the store? Do you remember how you felt when you walked out of the store with her in the bag, all yours? That's what makes you and Gracie beautiful. Nobody else should care where you bought her or about anything else. All that matters is how much love you have in your heart for Gracie, and the things that you two do together. Please don't let some mean old ladies who don't know how to be friends take away your love for Gracie. You worked hard to get her and you know what? YOU know what she likes best, not someone at a store who can't see how pretty Gracie can be! You and mom are the ones who know the best way to fix Gracie's hair because you will use LOVE, and that's what makes you look more beautiful than anything Etta! Have you read the Velveteen Rabbit? You made Gracie real too, sweetie, and only you know how real she is. I hope a bunch of irate Moms (preferably accompanied by Target and other "not real" dolls) go to AG Place tomorrow and let them know they cannot treat people this way. AG owes Etta big time and I hope they will make this right with her, but even if they do offer Etta a doll and a bunch of clothing (as well they should!) I hope Gracie will continue to be Etta's favorite. AG if you are reading this, I think you need to extend a special invitation to Etta and her doll Gracie to spend a day at AG place and see the show and have the lunch and whole works - on your dime! You need to make this right! I said the dolls were not real American dolls because fewer than a quarter of the population could afford such dolls and thus do not represent American children as a whole like Target or Wal Mart dolls do which fully 85 percent of the population could afford. It is statistics maam... nothing against the children...just statistics. Well once again the power of the media rules. This will cost them some business. I think a formal apology is the least they can do. To the folks who keep saying things like "don't throw away your kids' AG toys" and "stop ganging up on AG," you need to get a grip. Customers vote with their pocketbooks. There is a lesson to be learned here - and AG needs to learn it. In the current age of economic outsourcing and off-shore production, the quality of most products is pretty comparable. It's the BRAND that makes the difference. It's the BRAND that makes the prices vary. I can choose to buy any of a hundred brands of great tasting coffee - but I will choose the brand that is also fair trade harvested. If I'm going to buy a doll made in china - btw, the AG doll and the Target doll are both made in china - I'll choose the brand of made-in-china-doll that doesn't treat its customers like crap, thankyouverymuch. If you care sooooo much about all those kids out there that you don't even know having the chance to love their AG dolls - you should be out there buying AG dolls for every kid in the country! Why aren't you trying to get the right to own an AG doll added to the constitution? Seriously people, it's ludicrous that you would actually bother to implore people on a message board to go easy on AG. I guess you'll just have to buy more AG stuff to make up for the business they are going to lose from this point forward. There are plenty of places I can spend my money, and my kids will be a LOT happier with dolls that come from a company with a track record of upstanding behavior and GOOD SOLID CUSTOMER SERVICE. And you know what? I'm going to tell my kids WHY we don't buy AG dolls. Hope my kids don't happen to mention that to your kids...oh - wait, that's what you're worried about, isn't it. Ah, well it's all clear now, I see. Stop telling me to support a company that obviously doesn't bother to train its employees to handle a situation that I'm sure has come up before. And if you've got a "hunch" the story on this blog isn't 100% accurate - so what? It's a BLOG, not the New York Times. The gist is they treated a little kid like crap, and they are a TOY company. That's enough for me to know that I should take my business somewhere else. Sorry if that makes you feel threatened for some reason. The Target dolls that I see - the Our Generation dolls listed right now - are all white dolls. Hardly representative of most American children. At least American Girl has diversity going for it beyond just white, whiter and whitest. And I'm sorry, but if you think that 85% of American children can afford $29.99 for one doll, you need to get out more. Because not the kids I hang around with and not many of the kids in our school district. And this family owns three of them? $90 on dolls is exorbitant no matter how you slice it when there are kids in our schools who don't have books or pencils. 39% of children in the US live in low income families. 18% live in poor families. 33% of African American children under the age of 18 live in poverty. For many kids I work with, spending $29.99 on one doll would be all they get for Christmas and their birthday and Easter combined. So again, not all of America can afford the fake dolls. Not 85% by a long shot. Just wait until the children in the Brazilian favelas hear what we're paying for Target dolls and hear us complaining about our children's tender self esteem being crushed during a consumer experience. Poor, poor us. Oh please. An employee at Target once spit on my friend's kid's head. Don't shop at Target anymore. A Wal Mart employee once called another firend a bitch in front of her kids Don't shop at Wal Mart anymore. The fair trade coffee we buy is shippped thousands of miles at an environmental cost of thousands of gallons of oil all so we can feel good about helping out some farmer in Central America. If you think there isn't a company out there who isn't raping its customers, plundering the earth's resources, and treating employees like crap at one time or another, I have a bridge to sell you. AG's customer service track record has been pretty darn good as far as I've read about previously. I'd say it's just as likely a case of 6yo dramatics and mom's insecurities as anything else. Hi folks, I don't think this story is so touching because it has to do with money or consumerism or corporations. It's about jerks being mean to a little kid. F them. To the people who keep saying that they doubt what the other mothers said.. Etta may not remember what they said if she was upset, however - Etta's mom states quite clearly that Etta was with her friends mom. I'm quite sure that her friends Mom heard and remembered all the nasty comments and passed them on to Ettas mom. Another point to make. Any retailer will tell their staff that they represent the company they work for at all times. In the eyes of the public and customers of AG, that one idiot stylist may as well be the whole Company. By doing what she did, that stylist has damaged her employers reputation by failing to do her job and represent what that company is about - Pleasing children with Toys that they love. So what if the doll was a fake, she should have smiled, told Etta what a lovely doll it was and then braided its hair and put a ribbon in it. I think our whole country needs to get both sides of a story before they start on their war path. The worst things that have happened to me in my personal life have happened because people went around running their mouths instead of talking to ME, the person it involved. Given a chance, most times, we humans can learn a lot from putting our hostilities on hold while we TRY to set an example for our children and COMMUNICATE. I am sure there would have been a way to work this out if someone wasn't waiting to be offended. How can we expect our kids to work out disagreements or express their hurt and try to make amends or offer insight if they don't see it modeled. Some terrible things in history (much worse than commercialism or just ONE child's feelings) have been assaulted because people don't give each other a chance. In the least, don't hold the company responsible for an employee's actions until the company backs up her nasty behavior. Our world would be much better for our children, dolls or no dolls, if all of us tried a little harder to give each other a chance. My opinion on the price of AG dolls isn't even relevant here, like it or not, if this is a true, unadulterated story, it is about the lack of understanding and compassion on a stylist's part, backed up by ALL the other moms in line, AND the readiness of all many to take offense. All the bloggers who threaten and insult others are not much better than the original offenders. My first response was pure sadness for Etta, my second was disgust at the willingness of the public to incriminate and detest others with zero representation from the other side. I am not defending the gross error on the part of the stylist, but everyone should step back and ask for accountability and explanation. Would you want your business slandered because you had an employe who mistreated a customer? Given the same situation, I would have told my daughter sometimes there are rules that we have to follow, even if they don't make sense. I would have hugged her and told her we would have our own hairstyling party. I wouldn't further encourage the stylist, walked away with my head held high. I then would have gone directly to the manager or CS dept and explained what just took place. I would be willing to bet that even if that is their policy, they would have required an apology right then from the stylist and done something else to make Etta feel welcome there. If not, THEN I would have created a stir for AG, not before. THis is a great example of how rumors begin wars. I've just emailed American Girl suggesting that if they do not correct the situation properly with Etta, that I will pay for a press release to be distributed by PR Newswire (goes to all the major news media and wire services) about the situation. Assuming that the front line customer service person reading the email actually bounces it up to someone who matters, that, along with the other emails and calls already sent, will probably do the job. This is appalling. Not only does the "stylist" need to be fired or dramatically retrained, the store manager needs some serious help, because even having an employee that would perform that poorly in an environment where children are being served reflects badly on the manager as well as the employees. I didn't say 85 % of kids could afford a 29.99 dollar doll, I said 85% of kids could afford a doll from Target or Walmart. Also, race was not even brought up. So if you quote me, please do so properly and don't throw straw man arguments. The original blog was about snobbery, money, and the price of it all.. Blah blah blah, BURN THE DOLLS/DON'T BURN THE DOLLS!11 How about we forget about the stupid dolls (ALL of them) and turn our children towards something with a little bit less gender-bias? A nice, big stuffed animal can encourage a love of animals/nature instead of creating this negative, elitist attitude that is begotten from the very act of the purchase: "My doll is superior because it HAS A BRAND NAME and it cost $100 and IT BELONGS HERE {at the AG Place}!" at six becomes "I'm worthy only if I have money to afford {for example, those hideously overpriced Coach bags that some of you lovelies have brought up in the above}! Anything less is unacceptable!" at sixteen. Stuffed animals, particularly cool ones, foster a truly human-hierarchy-free level of love and compassion. People gave me dolls when I was young, but I hated them. I just didn't like dolls. I didn't like the idea of some inanimate--but humanoid--object with lifelike looking eyes staring at me. It gave me the creeps. But a nice, fat, fluffy stuffed animal/stuffed plushie? Especially in my house, where my parents were allergic to real animals, they were more than welcome to fill up my room. I adored them, and find myself desperately wishing that back when I was young they'd have the things that kids have available to them today (animals, aliens, cute monsters...today's kid has such a wealth of things to choose from). Anyway. If I were that kid and I received a doll (or two) from the company who did that to me, I would name the doll after the wenchbag who made me cry and then cut off all of her hair. Then take her back to the AG salon and ask the same hairstylist if she can fix herself. Nice blog, I'm reading this from the other side of the world from you, but still feel the hurt. I can believe some mothers acting like the ones in line did, too. Can you imagine what they're teaching their kids at home, makes me shudder. I got curious and read the website of AG. We don't have it here of course - and I feel extremey grateful for that after reading this and looking at the pompous industry it has created. How awful for you and your daughter. I hope all the comments left on your blog reaffirm your faith in humanity. I just wish I had the wisdom to suggest something that would help your little girl forget the whole ugly mess ever happened. dude i dont even like kids and i think thats really really REALLY f'ed up. even me... kid hating ME would never destroy a kid like that. thats just... f'ed up! that person should be fired immediatly to say the least... ." Many little black girls choose to buy white dolls over black dolls because our society has reinforced the message to little black girls over the past 200 years that white is beautiful and good and powerful and black is not. Google "white doll black doll" for a quick education. "The original blog was about snobbery, money, and the price of it all." Exactly. This is exactly what people buy into when they purchase any product which reflects our society's skewed sensibilities and rampant consumerism, even a Dollar Store knock-off Barbie with her panoply of accessories and Glamour good looks. Shame on any doll for spending $20 on a hair-do. How is that not also about snobbery, money and the price of it all? How can anyone say "Here's $20 to do my doll's hair" and then complain about snobbery? Does anyone not see the irony there? I feel very, very bad for this little girl. She went into this unwittingly and got an unfortunate education. But that's what happens when pretty and "bling" is what everyone aspires to in this country. Until people overwhelmingly use their purchasing power to buy "chubby, gap-toothed, frizzy-haired Matilda who comes with co-op hemp-woven accessories and a commuter rail pass" then even Dollar Store Barbie is part of the problem. Yikes, stay away from this brand, and not just because of this story. I went to their website, and what a crock - dolls don't teach "values" or "educate" parents do. Gessh, and I thought it was bad when I was a kid, but just the fact that a place exists for over-priviliged children to have a doll's hair "styled" in the first place (for more than most normal people pay for a HUMAN haircut) is scary and sad. Take the money you'd spend on these crazy, useless products and do something good with it besides reenforcing the consumer culture that leads to "Stupid Spoiled Whore" syndrome. I bet Paris Hilton was a huge American Girl customer - do you want your kids to turn out like THAT? Hello annon: ALL coffee is shipped thousands of miles at environmental cost. (Is your coffee grown in Georgia or something.) So if the choice is fair trade or rape and pillage - I'll choose the fair trade brand. Maybe I'll choose not to purchase coffee at all. Maybe I'll not buy dolls or "fake" products that trade on AG's name or product development.. EEK! Etta's mom, you rock! And I love your writing! AG is sooooooooo in trouble with me. I feel bad for the way the little girl was treated if this story is true. I also feel the mother should be ashamed of herself if this story is true. One of the core parts of being a parent is protecting and raising your child properly. This mother knew she was going to a name brad event with a non name brand doll. Simple logic would probably tell you that it wasn't going to to work out. The mother should have called and asked the question before she even talked to the daughter about going to the event. This story doesn't really have that ring of truth to me. I don't believe it actually happened. Not in the way the original poster is posting it anyways. If you notice the mother never has any direct comments with the stylist and the other mothers in line. Does that make any sense? That she would just stand by why her daughter presents the doll and gets yelled at by a AG stylist? I believe the original poster is just somebody that had a bad attitude and didn't get what they want so they changed the story to suit there own needs. Or maybe this never actually happened. The original poster left so many holes in the story it just looks like someone throwing a pity party to see how much damage a bogus story could cause a company. I have a radio show in Lincoln, Nebraska about computers and technoloigy and your story would be a PERFECT example of how the Internet can be used to warn others about bad service experiences. We would LOVE to have you on one of our shows. Call me at 402-212-5393 and we will put you on live. Our show airs Saturdays from 10-11 AM (CST). You can listen live on. I will put you on today if you can call in the next hour. This is a horrible experience that no little girl should ever have to go through again. That is perhaps the most insensitive thing i have heard. Those people obviously know nothing about children & have no business working with them. I hope that the store really takes a look at themselves & their business practises. I work with children & it is part of my job to lift them up, give them confidence & respect! That just really sucks, I would never buy one of those dolls for a little girl they are overpriced & stupid. I feel really sorry for your daughter. I guess she learned a valuable lesson on how people can be very insensitive & cruel. From what I read the mother wasn't there. Her daughter was with a friend and her friend's mom. I'm wondering how the friend's mom stood up for Etta. Because if the answer is "a little" or "not at all" then maybe its time for new friends too. "Rationalize? Pointing out the obvious fact that not only *can* companies choose to only service their own products but that most do is rationalizing?" Um maybe the company should have specified on their ads/website that only AG dolls would be 'serviced' at this event. Since they didn't, it's no surprise that this kid went to the event thinking that her "fake" doll would get a new hairstyle. Either way, we're talking about little kids, here. That stylist totally made an ass out of herself by demeaning a friggin 6 year old. Ridiculous wow, 167 comments! good to know people are reading. like another commenter here, i was also the girl with the "fake" cabbage patch dolls and all the snobbish results that incurred when i took my completely handmade "fake" cabbage patch doll (i named her "Penelope") to a slumber party. it wasn't until years later when the cost had dropped so far down they were offering them at grocery stores that i got my own "preemie" - i was nearly a teenager at that point. Etta will one day realize from this experience, thankfully, that she doesn't need a pair of $200 jeans to look good. She'll have a lot more money to travel and spend on materials to make things and do really great things in life while all those other girls are mincing around in overpriced shoes and handbags. hang in there, little etta. and in the meantime, go get some scissors and give your doll a punk-rock haircut. "If you notice the mother never has any direct comments with the stylist and the other mothers in line. Does that make any sense?" Um, yeah... it makes perfect sense because the mother wasn't there. Perhaps you need to improve your reading comprehension skills before you try commenting on a blog post again. Your point is pretty much cancelled out since you didn't read the original post correctly. D-minus for effort. Move along please. When I was younger I was insanely jealous of my stupid friends with those stupid dolls where even a stupid pillowcase for a stupid bed costs a stupid amount of money. American Girl Dolls are wonderful-- they're wonderfully expensive. It's sad that even children are aware of brand images. And if you're not, you'll get yelled at for bringing a less-expensive doll into a ridiculous tourist and consumerist trap. I hope Etta's happy now that she's a minor celebrity! My family, including my daughter who turns 10 on Monday, is traveling to NYC in a few weeks. The AG Place was on our itinerary. Not anymore. And after my daughter reads why, I won't be surprised if she cuts off all of her AG doll's hair. {{{{{{{{Etta}}}}}}}} As a mom of a 6 y/o daughter, I am appalled to see how your little girl was treated. :*( I have been boycotting AG for awhile for religious reasons, this gives me even more reasons to not spend my hard-earned money on their overpriced products. When I was a child my favorite doll was from K-Mart--I see nothing wrong with Etta loving her Target doll and wanting to have fun with her. Shameshameshame on that store and those other mean mothers for treating Etta the way they did. >:-( I'll add a link to this on my blog too. It could also be that it didn't happen this way at all. That the stylist was professional and kind in giving the information, but that the child threw a tantrum and the friend's mom had to doctor the story to save face. Innocent until proven guilty and not by 6yo hearsay. This is such a fake story. I can't believe the majority is falling for this bogus story. The original poster most likely doesn't even have children. All of you that are bashing American Girl should be ashamed of yourselfs not the American Girl Doll company. Try to get some facts before reacting instead of buying into this silly stuff. Unbelievably, Anonymous, March 24, 2007 at 8:09 said this: ." "That's all ?????" You've got to be kidding. Talk about a pity party. If you can't find a way make it up to this little girl, perhaps you can get your manager in on the act. Boo-hoo that you are working as a doll hair stylist and chose to make yourself feel momentarily better by crushing the feelings of a six year old girl dressed in thrift store fashions with a doll she bought with her own money. If you are who you say you are -- you should have been ESPECIALLY nice to the little girl with the not quite brand name doll. And this pathetic "apologies all around" is not really going to do the trick. Perhaps you need to get in touch with the child, explain that you were having a really bad day, tell her of course her doll is "real" and actually quite beautiful, and that you'd love to do her doll's hair. Or at the very least get your manager to send the girl a gift certificate and ask for a chance to make it right. If you aren't up to fixing the doll's hair, take the day off and let someone else do it. Really sorry that your life as a doll hairstylist sucks - but come on. You spend the day indoors, in NY, in a cushy neighborhood and a posh store. It's not like you're in the Peace Corps. My sister died in a car accident at the age of 26 while working in Mozambique teaching african teens about reproductive health care and how to avoid contracting aids. She was no stranger to high end shopping. But she was able to put her designer clothes and bags aside for the almost four years that she worked in Africa to help make people's lives better. I don't know anything about your background, but if you are working as a doll's hairstylist, I'm sure you can muster the energy to stop feeling sorry for your SELF, and apologize professionally and in person to this child. (How can you ask for compassion from others about having to be a doll's hairstylist after the way you treated that girl? Geez!) "The original poster most likely doesn't even have children." Yeah, you're right. This is all a long a well-thought out campaign. This woman spent a couple of years writing fake blog posts about being a mom, so that - BOOM - one day she could unleash her post about AG. It was all a sneaky plan, and you, clever poster, figured it out. Thanks for suggesting we "try to get some facts." I read the AG website, the AG wiki entry, and some of the other posts by this blogger before commenting. Did you? No? Guess I have more "facts" than you. I read some other posts by this blogger. Seems like she has a perpetual chip on her shoulder over her lifestyle choices. And I didn't get that it was the actual stylist writing. I got that this was a bad situation all around. A lot of people are very suspicious when there's a lynch mob out for anyone's blood, and justly so. America, people. Innocent until proven guilty. Let's not all act like the current administration here. I for one have emailed American Girl the following: Shame on your company. Turning away a little girl because her doll wasn't "real" How dare your employee refuse to style the doll's hair. This is quite a black mark on your reputation. "Real" parents are all disgusted with this event having taken place. You just lost a large amount of women buyers, as well as gotten yourself into the largest word of mouth spreaders on earth. MOTHERS! I for one am a member of mother of multiples (all having twins or more) This is absolutly appauling. So be happy with the uptight snooty parents that will remain loyal and buy in to your commercialism." FORTUNATELY NOT ALL OF US BELIEVE THIS ILL-CONCEIVED STORY. YOU MUST READ "THE ONION" FOR POINTERS. Wow. Drama queen much? Way to put your child (and another mom) in a difficult position and then blame for the company for not arranging itself to suit your demands. Why do I have a hard time believing this is the whole story? Be sure to write again when they won't seat you in first class with a coach ticket or when Rolex won't service your Timex. Great lesson you've taught your daughter. I am certain you have done a huge favor to all of us who will now NEVER buy into that type of commercialism and be patrons of American Girl products. I certainly will not. How absolutely awful of that stylist to shame your child in front of others. Don't children learn soon enough that there are differences in socioeconomic status quickly enough? I view what happened to your child equilvelent to robbing her of her childhood. SHAME ON YOU AMERICAN GIRL ! I am so sorry this happened to Etta. Please tell her that I too had 3 no-name dolls which were my favourites. I loved them becuse they were special to me. One because it was given to me by my grandparents. The others just because I loved them. Simple but more important than anything else. Children look at life in a different way until the adult world makes them cynical amd materialistic. The children in line that day may well be caught up in their parents idealistic ways of consumerism but Etta clearly is not. AG dolls come with a back story and personality. Where is the make-believe in that? Im sure Gracie has a very unique personality. AG shoudl be ashamed of themselves for the way they handled the situation. I would like to see a public apology from them too. I found this page through a link on Ebay's community pages. Its worldwide so hopefully AG will take notice. "AG dolls come with a back story and personality." No, not all of them do. Only the historical dolls. And the Just Like Me dolls not anymore than the Target dolls who come with the story and personality given to them through their costumes and accessories. The Target dolls' identity comes directly from being AG knock-offs. And anyone who buys an AG knock-off or fake AG clothing is still buying into the commercialism and consumerism of AG. Or else why bring an AG look-a-like to the store? Why not bring a Barbie styling head? I read your story on Myspace...thats just horrible, to treat a little girl like that? That stylist (WTH? I must be REALLY sheltered living in the midwest, who knew dolls needed a stylist?) should be ashamed of herself. I guess you can take solice in the fact that Karma has a way of coming around and bitting people like her in the butt. I have a 2y/o son and a baby on the way, gender undetermined just yet, but you can bet if I have a little girl not one penny of my hard earned money will go to that type of company! To the folks who keep saying things like "don't throw away your kids' AG toys" and "stop ganging up on AG," you need to get a grip. Customers vote with their pocketbooks. There is a lesson to be learned here - and AG needs to learn it. Amen. This is disgusting. Even if the story is only half-true, it's still a pretty revolting half, thank you very much. I've emailed AG and posted about this on my (very popular) site, too. Here's a great quote from the Digg site: "...no, it's not the responsibility of the parent to understand the services they will or will not provide upon risk of humiliation." I can't believe all you people are falling for this! Kudos to the author for having faith in the gullibility of the public. Wow. Well, Digg and Consumerist are making sure that this gets LOTS of press. I just fired off my letter to AG expressing my disgust, and I hope others do as well., let alone a "story" that is at BEST a distorted second hand. I can't believe how quickly everyone is buying this "story". I for one am skeptical of what is in my newspaper let alone what I read on the web. I think it will be hilarious when the TRUTH is revealed. All everyone sees this for what it is. OK as someone familiar with both types of dolls, I will say that it WAS the hair that made the difference. If the stylist messed up the AG doll hair, it can easily be rewigged. If Gracie's hair was damaged, it's rooted hair and therefore cannot be easily fixed. Also, the hair is MUCH different between the brands. I DO agree about the fact that this was no way to treat a child and the "stylist" should have just said "sorry I can't do any elaborate style" and just gave the doll a simple style that wouldn't damage the hair. The girl does deserve an apology. There's NOTHING wrong with a doll not being "AG"...it's Etta's doll, she bought it, and it doesn'tneed a fancy label to be special. I do NOT agree with boycotting AG as a whole because of this. I've bought/collected for nearly 20 years and will continue to do so. Maybe boycott the hair salon at the stores. If you choose not to buy AG because of this, it is, after all, your perogative, just like it is mine to keep buying the dolls. I won't think less of anyone who chooses not to shop AG. DISGUSTING!!!! I used to live in Chicago just across the street from the American Girl store. It was creepy to watch the little girls go in and out, carrying their little plastic look-alikes. Most of them even had outfits to match their dolls. It always gave me an icky feeling when I'd see them. Wow... just wow.... just when humanity has a chance to shine and restore a little faith I may have lost, someone like this has to go screw it up. Those moms need the botox slapped out of them! The stylist had a chance to make a little girl feel so special, and she just blew it. Even if the store had a policy against doing such a thing, she could have handled things differently. I'm proud of you and your daughter for the way she saved up her own money for her doll. I'm proud of how you explained to her the consequences of getting the expensive doll. I only wish I could hug Etta! Hi Etta and Etta’s MOM…... (Yes she deserves the capital letters). I usually don’t post things but this is a special case. Who is in charge of hiring these STUPID ………..persons, sorry, not persons, LOOSERS. That’s what she is, and probably everybody else in that place, otherwise at least one of them should have done or say something. About the other moms, I don’t think they even deserved to be mentioned in here. (Good thing I wasn't the one that took her there.) It’s sad that Etta got this lesson so early in her life but she will understand because she’s VERY SMART and will figure out what happened in that place. It’s sad to read other “people” making doubtful comments about what happened, if it really was this way or that way, WHO F------ CARES. (Sorry I’m not happy right now). The truth is, she got rejected because it wasn’t a FANCY AG doll, and is good to know that now the whole world knows about the awful place. Etta: What's important is that you love and care for your doll. Etta’s MOM: give my LOVE to her and to the rest of the family. Keep being the MOM you are. Give Etta a big kiss in my name. GUS Please send the link to this page to as many persons as possible, same way we usually do with other stupid (oops, read funny) emails. Excuse me for my grammar, verbs, etc. Spanish would’ve been easier. Please help Miss Etta visit our store website at While we don't have our doll clothes (and many other items) on-line, we do have lovely handsmocked dresses just the right size for Gracie. (In fact, if you will send us Etta's size we will do our best to send her the same smocked dress so she and Gracie can match.) Please contact the store with your address and sizes and a gift box will be on the way to your doorstep! This is begining to seem more & more like a contrived incidence to allow some "good samaritins" to promote their own websites. I am still not convinced that this happened as described. as a mother insist that she get a black doll instead of insisting stores stock dolls of a certain skin type just because you think they should. Vote with your dollars, not complaints. Explain to your daughter about how it is wrong to consider a doll inferior because of it's skin color etc.. I already knew about that study. You proved my point. Black dolls don't sell. Even African American families don't by darker hued babies, so why should the store stock them? Their only legal requirement is to sell the things that sell. Buy a darker skinned baby and they will restock it. If they sell out, they will buy even more babies. You are in control of your daughters perceptions of the world. Do you straighten your hair, dye it, where the latest styles? Do you try to make yourself look anything other than your heritage? I have black curly hair, darker skin than most, but am considered white... until I take my hair out of a pony tail..my point is. I don't see myself as just white. (Don't ask me WHAT I am) I buy dolls that look like my children. My one daughter has blond hair. My others have brown hair and olive skin. Guess who gets what. I live int he south. The fact that my hair is ...frizzy. Makes people stop and look twice. The fact that my skin is white with frizzy black hair confuses people. In truth my hair is so curly that I have tiny waves on each strand. I don't straighten it, or relax it, even though they told me I should. I don't consider myself white, black, latino, asian, or purple with pink spots. I am me. I don't know what race I am...and really I don't care. Only in America do we have this black/white view. But thanks for proving my point about the dolls not selling. Put your foot down...make your child accept a doll that represents her race if it bothers you so much that darker hued babies are harder to find. Otherwise you have no right to complain...you are helping perpetuate the problem. Goes to show that money cannot buy class, and certainly does not equal good character. Whether one is sucking up to money, as the stylist at AG or actually HAS money, as the classless, flat-charactered "mommies" in line. Let me be the 200th person to express my outrage at this most devastating story. All I can think when I hear about this kind of callous, shallow, hateful bullshit is that karma is real. I wonder what the return would be for stomping on the dreams of a six-year old?

530 F.2d 450 18 UCC Rep.Serv. 1122 FIRST NATIONAL BANK OF HOLLYWOOD et al., Plaintiffs-Appellees, v. AMERICAN FOAM RUBBER CORP. and Milton R. Ackman, as Trustee of American Foam Rubber Corp., Bankrupt, Defendants, Marie Louise deMontmollin et al., Defendants-Appellants. No. 38, Docket 75--7051. United States Court of Appeals, Second Circuit. Argued Sept. 24, 1975. Decided Feb. 5, 1976. David Sive, New York City (Winer, Neuburger & Sive, New York City, on the brief), for defendants-appellants. Jacob E. Heller, New York City (Joseph Heller and Jacob E. Heller, New York City, on the brief), for plaintiffs-appellees. Before LUMBARD, MULLIGAN and VAN GRAAFEILAND, Circuit Judges. VAN GRAAFEILAND, Circuit Judge: This is an appeal from a judgment in favor of the executors of one corporate creditor against another corporate creditor whose right to receive payment was made subordinate to that of plaintiffs' testate. Two questions are presented: 1. Did the subordinated creditor have the right to discharge an unmatured subordinated indebtedness without the consent of the senior creditor? 2. Was there payment of a matured, subordinated debenture when the subordinated creditor took the note of the debtor's parent corporation instead of cash? Litigation between the paties has now been in progress for fifteen years, and three opinions of the District Court have been reported. Buchman v. American Foam Rubber Corp., 250 F.Supp. 60 (S.D.N.Y.1965); First National Bank v. American Foam Rubber Corp., 306 F.Supp. 593 (S.D.N.Y.1969); First National Bank v. American Foam Rubber Corp., 309 F.Supp. 547 (S.D.N.Y.1969).1 Repetition will not improve upon the recitals of fact contained in these opinions, and we will therefore review only so much background as is necessary to frame the issues on this appeal. Prior to 1957, appellees' testate, Samuel Buchman, was president and a substantial stockholder of American Foam Rubber Corp. (AFR), a New York corporation. On May 17, 1957, Buchman resigned and sold his interest in AFR and its affiliate, Burlington Holding Corporation, to appellants. As part of the agreement of sale, certain debentures of the two corporations, maturing in 1960 and 1965, which were held by appellants, were subordinated to debentures held by Buchman. The pertinent portion of the subordination agreement reads as follows: To induce Samuel Buchman to sell his capital stock hereunder, Marie Louise deMontmollin and Alexander F. Pathy hereby agree with respect to the debentures of each of said corporations that the rights of any holder (including her or him) of the debentures thereof now held by her or him and referred to above, be subordinated to the rights of any holder or holders of the debentures thereof now held by Samuel Buchman (including him) as to the payment of interest and principal. No claim for interest under the debentures so subordinated shall be made unless all interest payable on the debentures now held by Samuel Buchman shall have been paid in full, and no claim for principal under any of the debentures so subordinated shall be made unless the entire principal of all the debentures now held by Samuel Buchman shall have been paid in full. If for any reason, either corporation shall pay interest or principal on said debentures to any of the Buyers, or to any person deriving title to the debentures of said corporation from any of the Buyers, and said payment shall be made without first satisfying the priority to which the holder or holders of Samuel Buchman's debentures are entitled by reason of the foregoing provisions, the amount or amounts of the payment so made to the buyer (or to the person deriving title from her or him) shall be promptly paid by such Buyer to said holder or holders of Samuel Buchman's debentures. A similar agreement of subordination was made with respect to some corporate promissory notes which were held by the parties. In 1958, AFR decided to issue new stock for the purpose of improving its capital structure; and, over a period of time, appellant deMontmollin surrendered subordinated AFR debentures and notes with a face value of $322,000 for preferred stock with an equivalent face value. On April 1, 1960, the Burlington debentures became due. Buchman was paid in cash for his, and Mrs. deMontmollin received a credit on Burlington's books for $15,000, the amount of her debentures. She immediately loaned this money to AFR, receiving a promissory note in return.2 This was accomplished by a bookkeeping transfer of assets from Burlington to AFR; no money passed through appellants' hands. On February 21, 1961, AFR was adjudicated a bankrupt. In its opinion, 306 F.Supp. 593, 601, the District Court stated that, if Mrs. deMontmollin had not surrendered the $322,000 in debentures and notes, appellees, because of their right to priority in payment under the subordination agreement, would have been entitled to recover the bankruptcy dividends payable on these obligations. It therefore held appellant deMontmollin liable for the amount of the dividend which would have been paid. The District Court also held that the transaction involving the $15,000 Burlington debentures constituted payment of those debentures within the meaning of the subordination agreement and that appellant deMontmollin was liable for this amount. Id. at 607. We reverse the holding of the District Court insofar as it predicates liability upon the exchange of the AFR debentures and notes for stock and affirm its holding insofar as it predicates liability upon the payment of the Burlington debentures. The Exchange Transaction Before examining the District Judge's theory of liability, we first note our approval of his rejection of an alternate theory which had been proposed by plaintiffs. Judge Cooper held that the exchange of debentures and notes for preferred stock did not constitute payment of these obligations, as that term was used in the subordination agreement, since no assets of the corporation passed into the creditors' hands. 306 F.Supp. at 599. Neither, he said, was the issuance of stock the first step in a plan to secure payment, since AFR was precluded by other contractual provisions from paying dividends or redeeming stock. Id. at 600. We find no error in these holdings. Judge Cooper's theory of liability was that appellant had breached an implied provision in the subordination agreement that the subordinated debt would not be discharged.3 He stated that the subordinated debt was 'a type of security for the senior debt, available to the senior creditor upon a distribution of the assets of the debtor' and might therefore be regarded as a 'cushion' or 'support' for the senior debt. 306 F.Supp. at 599. Although he then specifically refused to determine the true nature of the interest, 'if any', created in favor of the senior creditor, he held that, in the absence of provisions to the contrary, it was a breach of the subordination agreement for the junior creditor to discharge the subordinated debt. Id. at 606. We disagree. The subordination agreement provided in substance that neither interest nor principal should be paid on the subordinated debt unless the interest and principal on the senior debt were paid in full and that, if such payments were made, they would be promptly paid over to the senior creditor. Clearly, the senior creditor had both equitable and contractual rights in the proceeds of such payments. Similar rights would attach to dividends declared in the estate of the bankrupt creditor. In re Credit Industrial Corporation, 366 F.2d 402 (2d Cir. 1966); Calligar, Subordination Agreements, 70 Yale L.J. 376, 383 (1961). Various theories have been advanced to support the enforcement of subordination agreements in bankruptcy: equitable lien, equitable assignment, constructive trust and enforcement of contractual rights. In re Itemlab Inc., 197 F.Supp. 194, 197 (E.D.N.Y.1961); Calligar, supra, 70 Yale L.J. at 384; Leiby, Enforcement and the U.C.C., 23 Bus. Lawyer 57 (1967). This Circuit has favored the recognition of priorities based upon the 'lawful contractual arrangement between the parties.' In re Aktiebolaget Kreuger & Toll, 96 F.2d 768, 770 (2d Cir. 1938). As we stated in In re Credit Industrial Corporation, supra, 366 F.2d at 407, if the terms of the contract are unambiguous, there is no need to resort to 'strained theories of third-party beneficiary, estoppel or general principles of equity' to determine the rights of the parties. Since most of the decisions in this area have dealt with the priority of payments in bankruptcy, there has been little need for the courts to explore the rights of the parties beyond those which attach to the bankruptcy dividends. The rules which have been laid down in these cases are not, therefore, determinative of the senior creditor's pre-bankruptcy rights, if any, in the payment which has not yet accrued or the dividend which has not been declared, i.e., in the debt itself.4 To justify the judgment in favor of plaintiffs below, they must have had rights, rights of such nature that they precluded defendant's good faith discharge of the subordinated debt. No recital of such rights can be found in the contractual arrangement between the parties. The terms of the subordination agreement are unambiguous and include no prohibition against discharge of the subordinated indebtedness. Moreover, based upon our decision in Cherno v. Dutch American Mercantile Corporation, 353 F.2d 147 (2d Cir. 1965), we see no equitable basis for holding that a prohibition should be implied. The facts in Cherno are not dissimilar from those we are now considering. There, the subordinated creditor discharged a chattel mortgage which he held as security, in order that the debtor could mortgage the property to a third party. In denying the senior creditor's claim that it was a preferred lien creditor as an equitable assignee or equitable lienholder, we held that the usual subordination agreement simply gives priority or precedence of lien right and debt payment to the senior creditor and does not constitute an assignment of the subordinated debt. Id. at 151. We also rejected the senior creditor's claim of a security interest in the debt. In so doing, we anticipated the provisions of § 1--209 of the N.Y. Uniform Commercial Code, enacted the following year.5 Finally, we held that the senior creditor was not the beneficiary of a constructive trust, because the subordinated creditor was not being unjustly enriched by holding property in which the senior creditor had an interest. In denying the existence of an equitable lien in, or equitable assignment of, the subordinated debt, we were following rules of law well established in both the New York and Federal courts. Generally, these courts have held that an agreement to pay out of a particular fund does not create an equitable lien upon the fund or operate as an equitable assignment thereof. East Side Packing Co. v. Fahy Market, 24 F.2d 644, 645 (2d Cir. 1928); Union Trust Co. v. Townshend, 101 F.2d 903 (4th Cir.), cert. denied, 307 U.S. 646, 59 S.Ct. 1044, 83 L.Ed. 1526 (1939); B. Kuppenheimer & Co. v. Mornin, 78 F.2d 261, 264 (8th Cir.), cert. denied, 296 U.S. 615, 56 S.Ct. 135, 80 L.Ed. 436 (1935); Cabell v. Markham, 69 F.Supp. 640, 642 (S.D.N.Y.1946), aff'd sub nom. Cabell v. Clark, 162 F.2d 153 (2d Cir. 1947); People ex rel. Balbrook Realty Corp. v. Mills, 295 N.Y. 190, 195, 66 N.E.2d 50 (1946). To accomplish an assignment, the would-be assignor must relinquish control over the fund. The test is whether there is 'an appropriation of the fund so that the debtor would be justified in paying the debt or the assigned part to the person claiming to be the assignee.' Hinkle Iron Co. v. Kohn, 229 N.Y. 179, 183, 128 N.E. 113, 114 (1920); In re Conoley, 50 F.Supp. 542 (S.D.N.Y.1942). Whatever may have been the situation with regard to payments due and owing to Mrs. deMontmollin, we think it clear from the foregoing authorities that Mr. Buchman, as senior creditor, had no equitable rights as assignee or lienholder in the debt itself. Thomas v. New York and Greenwood Lake Rwy. Co., 139 N.Y. 163, 178, 34 N.E. 877 (1893). AFR, the debtor, had no right to pay any part of the unmatured debt to Mr. Buchman, the senior creditor. It is interesting to note that this was the specific holding of the court in In re Dodge-Freedman Poultry Co., 148 F.Supp. 647 (D.N.H.1956), aff'd sub nom. Dodge-Freedman Poultry Co. v. Delaware Mills Inc., 244 F.2d 314 (1st Cir. 1957) (per curiam), relied upon by the court below. That case involved the waiver by a subordinated creditor of a bankruptcy dividend and the preservation of such dividend for the senior creditor through the doctrine of constructive trust. The court said, 148 F.Supp. at 651: In the case at bar, there was no manifestation of intention, either written or oral, or by conduct, on the part of Freedman (the subordinated creditor) to relinquish control, or to make any appropriation to Delaware Mills, Inc. (the senior creditor). Therefore, no equitable assignment was created, nor is there an equitable lien. Judge Cooper quite correctly recognized, on the basis of our decision in Cherno, that plaintiffs could claim no rights as beneficiaries of a constructive trust, since Mrs. deMontmollin never had any property in her possession in which plaintiffs had any equitable interest. 306 F.Supp. at 603 n. 38. Having thus rejected appellees' last possible equitable claim, it is not surprising that Judge Cooper would 'intimate no view on the 'true nature' of the interest created, if any.'6 Id. at 606. Judge Cooper's reliance upon a statement in Cherno that the subordinated creditor breached the subordination agreement when it discharged a chattel mortgage given to it as collateral, is, we think, misplaced. That statement was dictum. Moreover, the proof in Cherno showed that the collateral was discharged subsequent to default by the insolvent debtor on both the subordinated debt and the senior indebtedness, while an action to recover on the latter was pending. We described it as part of a 'scheme' to get additional cash from an innocent lender. 353 F.2d at 149. The discharge of the subordinated indebtedness in the instant case occurred before its maturity and three years prior to the debtor's bankruptcy. There is no claim of any 'scheme' or bad faith and no contention that the discharge was made in contemplation of bankruptcy. Nonetheless, Judge Cooper determined in 1969 that the discharge constituted a breach of the subordination agreement and then waited five years until the termination of the bankruptcy proceedings in 1974 to compute the amount of plaintiffs' damages. Only in this way could he ascertain the amount of the 'double dividend' which he said plaintiffs lost.7 It requires little imagination to conceive of the discharge of a subordinated debt many years prior to bankruptcy, or, indeed, without any subsequent bankruptcy ever taking place. If the decision appealed from is correct, such discharge would nonetheless be a breach of the subordination agreement, because of the remote chance that bankruptcy might someday occur and the senior creditor might thereafter be deprived of a double dividend.8 We think that if the senior creditor would prohibit a discharge because of such remote contingencies, he should so provide in the subordination agreement. We hold, therefore, that appellees' testate had no equitable or contractual rights in the unmatured obligations which prevented appellant from discharging them in good faith. The Loan Transaction Appellant's argument that the loan transaction was simply a series of bookkeeping entries between parent and subsidiary corporation was properly rejected by the District Court. Where a creditor takes the bill, note or check of a third party instead of insisting upon performance to the letter of his contract with the debtor, a reasonable inference may sometimes be drawn that the primary obligation has been paid and discharged. charged. Hamilton v. R. S. Dickson & Co., 85 F.2d 107 (2d Cir. 1936); 70 C.J.S. Payment § 29 (1951). Judge Cooper was entitled to find that when, upon the maturity of the Burlington debentures, Mrs. deMontmollin released that company from its indebtedness and took an AFR note in substitution therefor, this was payment of the debentures within the meaning of the subordination agreement. Moreover, although no money passed through appellant's hands, the effects of the transaction, as Judge Cooper held, were the same as if it had. Plaintiffs were entitled to recover the amount of this payment by virtue of the specific provisions of the subordination agreement. This being so, we need not consider appellant's equitable defense of lack of clean hands, based on Mr. Buchman's allegedly improper conduct in other matters involving AFR. We affirm that portion of the judgment appealed from which is based on the payment of the $15,000 in Burlington debentures and reverse that portion based upon the discharge of the $322,000 in AFR debentures and notes, with costs of the appeal to appellant, and remand to the District Court for judgment in accordance with this decision. Appellants claim that Judge Cooper abused his discretion by basing his decision on an implied provision not to discharge the indebtedness because that theory was not pleaded by any of the parties and contradicted previous rulings by the court that allegedly limited the issues to be tried. While these allegations would provide sufficient grounds for reversal if Judge Cooper had, as implied by appellants, raised and resolved issues sua sponte that prejudiced appellants, see United Transportation Union v. State Bar of Michigan, 401 U.S. 576, 91 S.Ct. 1076, 28 L.Ed.2d 339 (1971); Reynolds v. Stockton, 140 U.S. 254, 266, 11 S.Ct. 773, 35 L.Ed. 464 (1891), in this instance Judge Cooper was entitled to consider the claim of the loss of a 'double dividend' in bankruptcy On May 9, 1967, Judge Cooper issued an opinion denying defendants' motion for summary judgment on the subordination claim. Judge Cooper defined the 'plain meaning' of the subordination agreement as prohibiting defendants 'from realizing any cash or its equivalent from the corporation until Buchman's debentures had been satisfied in full.' Judge Cooper indicated that the Exchange Transactions would not violate the subordination agreement thus defined unless it constituted 'a first step in a plan to obtain cash--or cash realizable property--from the corporation.' It was to decide this latter question that Judge Cooper proceeded to trial. After a three-day trial to the court in December 1968, Judge Cooper rendered his decision on July 23, 1969. With respect to the Exchange Transaction, he held that the discharge of the debentures and receipt of the preferred stock did not constitute 'payment' within the meaning of the subordination agreement. 306 F.Supp. at 599--600. Judge Cooper also determined that the exchange was not a first step in a plan to obtain cash that could constitute a breach of the agreement under the May 9, 1967, interpretation. Nevertheless, the judge concluded that the Exchange Transaction breached the agreement because it deprived Buchman of his 'double dividend' in bankruptcy. Since Judge Cooper had indicated in his opinion of May 9, 1967, that the subsequent trial would be limited to the question of whether the Exchange Transaction constituted the first step in a plan to obtain cash, appellants forcefully argue that appellees were restricted by the law of the case to a recovery on the issue of premature payment. Thus, appellants argue, once the district court found no such payment, the inquiry should have ended and judgment should have been entered on their behalf. Our reading of the record reveals that the 'double dividend' theory was not based on an issue or on facts that the parties did not have the opportunity to litigate at trial and that Judge Cooper's consideration of the issue did not unduly prejudice appellants. At an early point during the first day of the trial, appellees offered evidence bearing on AFR's status in bankruptcy in order to prove the amount of the dividend that Buchman would have received in bankruptcy had appellants' debentures not been exchanged for stock. Appellees also noted that they had advocated this theory of recovery throughout the pretrial proceedings, and this point was not denied by appellants. Thus, it appears that appellants were fully apprised of the 'double dividend' issue both prior to and during the trial and could have introduced evidence to the effect that the parties never intended the subordination agreement to cover the parties' rights in bankruptcy, had that indeed been the understanding. No such evidence was offered. The fact that the relief requested in the pleadings did not include the lost dividend would not preclude Judge Cooper from granting relief on that theory. The pleadings recited all the facts relevant to the Exchange Transaction and appellants cannot have been surprised by the evidence proffered at trial. Once the issue was raised at trial, Judge Cooper was entitled to grant relief on a theory not pleaded by any party but relying on pleaded and proven facts. See United States ex rel. Bergen Point Iron Works v. Maryland Casualty Co., 384 F.2d 303, 304 (2d Cir. 1967); Fed.R.Civ.P. 54(c); 10 C. Wright & A. Miller, Federal Practice and Procedure § 2664, at 104--05 (1973). Nor can we say that Judge Cooper's May 9, 1967, decision irrevocably bound him not to consider the parties' rights in bankruptcy at the subsequent trial. In this Circuit, the law of the case is a discretionary doctrine that need not be applied when no prejudice results from its omission. See Dictograph Products Co. v. Sonotone Corp., 230 F.2d 131, 135 (2d Cir.), appeal dismissed, 352 U.S. 883, 77 S.Ct. 104, 1 L.Ed.2d 82 (1956). Since appellants were on notice both prior to and during the trial that appellees would request judgment on the basis of the dividend lost as a result of the Exchange Transaction, the appellants did not suffer prejudice or surprise such as to render it improper for the district court to reach that question. 'Cases in this area are not helpful in solving the question of whether the subordination, if it is a lien or assignment, is a lien or assignment of the note itself or of certain rights arising by virtue of the note.' Zinman, Under the Spreading UCC-Subordinations and Article 9, 7 B.C.Ind. & Com.L.Rev. 1, 25 n. 81 (1965) N.Y. Uniform Commercial Code § 1--209 (McKinney Supp.1975) provides: An obligation may be issued as subordinated to payment of another obligation of the person obligated, or a creditor may subordinate his right to payment of an obligation by agreement with either the person obligated or another creditor of the person obligated. Such a subordination does not create a security interest as against either the common debtor or a subordinated creditor. This section shall be construed as declaring the law as it existed prior to the enactment of this section and not as modifying it. A determination of the 'true nature' of plaintiffs' equitable rights cannot be avoided by adopting the concept of implied contract. '(I)mplied contract is a term used to define those situations and conditions which make it equitable and just in applying the equity powers of the court to establish and declare a lien where otherwise there might be no relief.' James v. Alderton Dock Yards, Ltd., 256 N.Y. 298, 303, 176 N.E. 401, 403 (1931) Since we are reversing that portion of the judgment in which these damages are awarded, we need not consider appellant's argument that the procedure followed by the District Court was improper

61 U.S. 8 20 How. 8 15 L.Ed. 805 JAMES R. JONES, CHARLES C. JONES, WILLIAM G. GORMAN, ROBERT LOTT, JOHN TIPPIN, MATTHEW T. TIPPIN, AND JOHN R. TALLY, PLAINTIFFS IN ERROR, v. CATHERINE McMASTERS, BY HER NEXT FRIEND, MANUEL YBARBA. December Term, 1857 THIS case was brought up, by writ of error, from the District Court of the United States for the district of Texas. The case is stated in the opinion of the court. It was argued by Mr. Hale for the plaintiffs in error, and by Mr. Hughes for the defendant. The principal question in the case was, whether Catherine McMasters was a citizen of Mexico or of Texas. The arguments of the counsel upon this point were as follows: Mr. Hale's first point was this: The District Court should not have sustained the demurrer to the plea to the jurisdiction pleaded by John R. Tally. It appeared by the allegations of that plea that the plaintiff was, at the time of the institution of the suit, a citizen of the State of Texas. The Constitution of the Republic of Texas declared that 'all persons (Africans, the descendants of Africans, and Indians, excepted) who were residing in Texas on the day of the declaration of independence, shall be considered citizens of the Republic, and entitled to the privileges of such.' (Const. Rep. Gen. Prov., sec. 10; Hart. Dig., p. 38.) And the incorporation of the Republic of Texas into the Union, 'on an equal footing with the original States in every respect,' necessarily onverted the citizens of the Republic of Texas into citizens of the State of Texas and of the United States. (Joint Resolution for annexing Texas to the United States, March 1, 1845, 5 Stat. at L., 797; act of Dec. 29, 1845, 6 Stat. at L., 1.) It follows, that any person who, within the meaning of the Constitution of the Republic, resided in Texas at the time of the declaration of independence, and continued thus to be a citizen of the Republic until the period of annexation to the United States, became thereby a citizen of the State of Texas, and was not competent to bring a suit, in the District Court of the United States, against other citizens of the same State. The only point which presents any difficulty is in relation to the meaning of the phrase, 'who were residing in Texas,' used in the Constitution of the Republic. There can be little doubt, however, that the framers of the Constitution intended this phrase to be equivalent to the corresponding one, 'who had their domicil in Texas,' and did not design to deprive of their citizenship those who were physically absent from the country. Many of the most respectable and deserving residents of Texas were not, personally, within the limits of the Republic at the date of the declaration of independence. They had been forced to leave the country, temporarily, by the advance of the Mexican army; they had accompanied their suffering families to the refuge offered by the United States, on the eastern bank of the Sabine; they had been sent on missions by the General Council, to arouse the sympathies of the Western States; they had returned to their former homes, to bring their wives and children, left there during hostilities, to the country now redeemed by their arms. The history and legal annals of Texas are filled with examples. (Yoakum's History of Texas, vol. II, pp. 34, 36, 118, 125, 175, 181; Ordinances of Gen. Council, pp. 52, 55, 56, 58; Republic v. Young, Dallam, 464; The State v. Skidmore, 5 Tex., 469; Russell v. Randolph, 11 Tex., 464-'6.) It could not be intended by the Constitution of the new State, then in need of citizens, and anxious to attract them, to disfranchise such persons by a rigorous and literal application of the term 'resident.' And this conclusion is confirmed by the established meaning of this term. (Lambe v. Smith, 15 Mees. and W., 434; Hylton v. Brown, 1 Wash. C. C. R., 314; Blanchard v. Stearns, 5 Met., 303; Crawford v. Wilson, 4 Barb., 522.) It is true that in some instances, especially in cases arising under attachment laws, it has been said that residence and domicil were not always equivalent terms, and that a citizen domiciliated in one State, might have a temporary residence in another. But these decisions were based entirely upon the consideration of the object and intention of the particular statutes which were then to be interpreted, and do not deny that in other statutes, having a more enlarged purpose, the two terms would be regarded as identical. Strictly speaking, the more fact of inhabitancy does not constitute a domicil; the intention of remaining must also exist; but it follows, from this very rule, that a domicil implies and presupposes a residence, and that one who had his domicil in the Republic of Texas, necessarily resided there—legally, if not physically. The position here assumed is strengthened by the fact, that at the time of the declaration of independence of Texas, the western portion of the new Republic was filled with the military forces and political adherents of the invader. It would be the height of absurdity to suppose that the framers of the Constitution designed to convert the troops and the supporters of Santa Anna, then actually within Texas, and with a literal residence in the country, into citizens of the revolutionary Government. If, then, the Constitution of the Republic of Texas conferred citizenship upon those who had their domicil in the country at the time of the declaration of independence, it will follow that Catherine McMasters was a citizen of the Republic. It appeared by the allegations of the plea that the domicil of her birth or origin was in Texas, at the town of Goliad, and that domicil certainly continues until another is acquired. (Somerville v. Somerville, 5 Vesey, 787; Monro v. Monro, 7 Cl. and Fin., 876; Mascard de Prob. concl. 85, No. 1.) To acquire another domicil, an intention to abandon the domicil of origin must exist. (Monro v. Monro, 7 Cl. and Fin., 891.) And an absence of fifteen or twenty years is not in itself, without proof of such intention, sufficient to forfeit the original domicil. (Merlin, Repert. Domicile, § 2; Dalloz, Dict. Gen. Domicile, § 1, Nos. 9-13.) In the case of Sanint Germain, absent in India for forty-five years, it was decided that such absence, without proof of his intention to abandon his residence in France, did not divest him of his domicil. (Dalloz, Jur. Gen., vol. 6, pp. 383-'4.) The intention or animus, thus essential to the acquisition of a new domicil, must be a legal and disposing will, and the voluntary act of a mind capable in law of acting. It can only be evinced by a person sui juris. (Somerville v. Somerville, 5 Ves., 787; Guier v. O'Daniel & Young, note to 1 Binn., 349, 352.) And, a fortiori, an infant or child cannot be capable of such as intention. Nam infans, et qui infanti proximus est, non multum a furioso distat. (Inst. III, 19, 10.) A minor, without parents or legal tutor, can therefore never lose or abandon proprio marte the domicil of origin. (Story Confl. Laws, § 46, 506, note; 1 Burge Comm. Col. Law, 38, 39; Pothier, Cout. d'Orleans, Ch. 1, sec. 1, Nos. 12-18; ed. de Brugnet, vol. 1, p. 5; Desduitz de St. Pierre v. Revel, Sirey, 35, p. 2, 556.) And this principle has been repeatedly recognised in the decisions of the Supreme Court of Louisiana—a court the most conversant with such questions. (Robbins v. Weeks, 5 Mart. N. S., 379; Succession of M. J. Robert, 2 Rob. La. R., 435-'6.) It is true that the surviving father or mother, that is to say, the natural tutor, may change, at will, the domicil of the minor, and transfer it to a different country; (Potinger v. Wightman, 3 Mer., 67, 79;) but this power does not extend to a mere friend, or to a person assuming, without the direct authority of law, the custody of the minor's person. (Robbins v. Weeks, 5 Mart. N. S., 379.) These rules are well explained by J. Voet, in his Commentaries on the Pandects, (Lib. V, tit. I, No. 100,) where he says, 'Ut enim haud difficiliter admittendum sit minorennem non magis posse domicilium mutare quam contrahendo se obligare; tamen quemadmodum contrahere auctore tutore permissum ei est, itaque et domicilium cum patre matreve, tanquam tutelae ejus aut saltem educationi praeposita, tutoribus caeteris non contradicentibus, mutare nihil vetat.' It is because the authority of the tutor supplies the defect of legal capacity or volition in the minor, that the latter acquires the domicil to which he accompanies the guardian; but as the authority of the delegated or appointed tutor ceases when he removes beyond the limits of the country, (Johnstone v. Beattie, 10 Cl. and Fin., 42, 87, 113, 148,) only the natural guardian—the parent of the minor, whose power remains unimpaired—can change the domicil of his ward to a new country. (School Directors v. James, 2 Watts and S., 568, 572.) These principles are substantially recognised in the case of Hardy v. De Leon. (5 Tex., 234-'8.) Sylvester De Leon resided in Texas at the date of the declaration of independence; in 1838, he was removed by the military authorities of the country to Louisiana, where his son, Francisco Santiago De Leon, was born; the wife of Sylvester died; the family then removed to Tamaulipas, and children were left in the care of their grandmother, while Sylvester returned to Texas; after a short visit, he again went to Tamaulipas, with the intention of returning to Texas with his children, but was killed on the road. Francisco, his youngest son, however, came to Texas, and lived at Goliad; and in a suit commenced in his name, it was pleaded by the defendants that he was an alien enemy. The Supreme Court of Texas held that the plaintiff's father, Sylvester De Leon, had never lost his citizenship in Texas; and if he had, or if his citizenship did not attach to his infant son, born in Louisiana, still the domicil of origin, acquired by the birth of Francisco in Louisiana, could not be forfeited by his removal, during minority, and without his own volition, to Mexico. The case made by the present plea in abatement is stronger than that of Hardy v. De Leon. Catherine McMasters was a child, less than five years of age, at the time of her removal from the domicil of her parents and of her own birth, in Texas, to a foreign country. Her parents were both dead; she had had no recognised tutor, nor has she been emancipated by marriage; she was removed by the family of Manuel Sabriego, with which she has continued to reside; and it does not appear that the family, which she thus accompanied, had any legal authority whatever to control her course in life, or decide on her domicil. It was incumbent on the plaintiff to have repelled the legal presumption arising from these facts, by a replication to the plea, and the demurrer should have been overruled. These views are confirmed by a recent decision of the Supreme Court of Texas, made at Tyler, in 1857, in the case of Wheeler v. Hollis. (See manuscript opinion.) In the course of this decision, after referring to the doubt as to the general authority of a guardian to change the domicil of his ward, the court states its conclusion to be, that a mother is not deprived, by her second marriage, of the natural right of controlling the person of her child, and determining its future home; but that this power does not extend to the mere legal guardian, after the death of both parents, nor authorize the mother, even as natural guardian, to change the domicil of the child, to the injury of its interests or the forfeiture of its property. 'When an infant has no parents, the law, it is true, remits him to his domicil of origin or to the last domicil of his parents. But when he has a surviving mother, it is difficult to perceive the justice or propriety there would be in not permitting her to make her domicil that of her children.' 'In other communities, it may not be unusual for children, who have parents, to have others appointed their guardians; and then it may be truly said that the ward is not naturally or necessarily a part of the guardian's family;' 'and so it may be said where the ward has no parent.' And the court cites the opinion of Ch. J. Gibson in School Directors v. James, 2 W. and S., 568, with approbation, and affirms the rule, that 'whatever may be the power of the guardian over the person and property of the ward, he cannot exercise it so as to injure the ward himself. The very end and purpose of his office is protection, and there is no imaginable case in which the law makes it an instrument of injury by implication.' It is evident, from this decision, that Sabriego had no power to remove the infant plaintiff from the domicil of origin for any reason, much less to make such removal when it would work a forfeiture of the minor's lands in Texas. This part of the case, however, can be put upon higher ground. The principles of the Spanish law, and not the law of nations or of nature, controlled the political rights of persons under both the Republics of Mexico and of Texas. The jurisprudence of Spain in relation to questions of citizenship was stirctly and perhaps too exclusively national in its spirit. It admitted of no divided allegiance; it suffered no expatriation from the native soil. The domicil of the origin fixed the political rights and duties of the subject and citizen forever. 'By law, no one can denaturalize himself.' (Part. II, 18, 29; Part IV, 24-'5.) And Aguila y Roxas, in his excel lent notes to his grandfather's treatise on the conflict of laws in relation to entailments, sums up the whole doctrine in this paragraph: 'Originarius hujus Regni, qui in aliud se transtulit, non amittit originem, quia quemadmodum patrem mutare non possumus, ita nec patriam: pro qua videndi qui hanc sententiam sequuntur, Bart. in L. Assumptio in princ. ff. ad Muncipal; Sozin. in cap. licet ratione ult. num. 52, de for. compet; Sanchez de Matrim lib. 3, disp. 23, num. 4; Barbos. in L. Haeres absens § Proinde n. 24 and 5, 26, 41, 87, 102, and 130, cum seq. 7, Judic.; Menoch. cons. 1076 a num. 3, and cons. 600, num. 7, and cons. 80, num. 10, and seq. and cons. 112, n. 61; Pasc. de vir. pat. potest. 3. cap. 2, n. 31; Peregrin. cons. 55; Manuel Barbos. ad Ordin. Portugal, lib. 2, tit. 56, in prine. num. 2; Ciarlin. Controv. for. cap. 149, ubi elegans ratio ibi: quia statim atque natus est patria, illi hypothecatus est; Vid. D. Amaya in L. 7 c. in col. num. 32 and seq.; Carleval. de Judic. tit. 1, disp. 2, num. 124; Surd. cons. 560, num. 5; Cald. Pereyra in Resp. pro D. Joan. de Tassis n. 9.' (See Aguila y Roxas, Additae Quaest, P. III, ch. 1, no. 8; Notes of Greg. Lopez to Part. IV, 24-'5.) The political existence of Catherine McMasters was attached to the soil, and, in the language of Ciarlina above cited, she was mortgaged to it as her country. She might lose her rights of property by absence, or her civil privileges by disuse; but the Republic of Texas could not suffer her to sacrifice the political duties which wedded her to the country of her birth—much less allow a self-appointed guardian to sever this infant, without power or freedom of choice, from her natural mother. Mr. Hughes: I. This plea shows that plaintiff below did not reside in Texas at the day of the declaration of independence, but was then residing in Matamoras, or elsewhere in Mexico. And we would say that this settles the question, for a prima facie case, to say the least, is made, showing that she was not a citizen of the Republic. The declaration of the Constitution of the Republic is, 'All persons (Africans excepted, &c.) who were residing in Texas on the day of the declaration of independence, shall be considered citizens of the Republic, and entitled to all the privileges of such.'—Const. of Rep., Gen. Prov., sec. 10, Hart. Dig., p. 38. But, to avoid the effect of this provision, it is contended that the word 'residing,' in the connection it is found, should be construed the same as 'domicil;' and to show that there might be a domicil, without a continued actual residence, numerous authorities will no doubt be referred to—all of which, as before stated, will be admitted to be good law; but they do not meet the case. For it is manifest that the Convention which framed the Constitution did not intend to indicate 'domicil' by the language used; and the error, if error there be, in the premises or conclusions of counsel, is in supposing that only by virtue of the provision of the Constitution cited, was it declared who were citizens of Texas and who were not. We suppose the provision inserted was so inserted for the purpose of providing for a class of persons who, upon general principles, might not be citizens of the new Republic. There were and could not have been otherwise than great numbers of persons, within the limits of Texas, who had not become citizens, and all such it was intended to make citizens. This will appear from an examination of the other provisions of the same 10th section and other sections of the Constitution. But, again, had the word 'domicil' been used instead of 'residing,' there would have been something in the argument. Domicil does not necessarily indicate residence, for the authorities show, that though domicil may be accompanied with residence, it is not always so; but there may be domicil without actual residence. Residence does not always indicate domicil. If it had been the intention to make a declaration which was to determine as to all persons who should be citizens of the Republic, some other term would have been used; but the use of the expression inserted shows that there might be other persons who were citizens, besides those provided for—those, for instance, who had been, and up to the day of the declaration of independence continued to be, citizens of the State of Coahuila and Texas, residing in Texas, but who might be temporarily absent from the State, on business of the country, &c. Transient persons, however, were not provided for, as they should not have been. The Mexican army in the west spoken of, who came to subjugate Texas, being all transient, could not come within the language 'residing.' This question will now be viewed in its true character, not as a mere question of domestic domicil, but in that more important, as a question of national character. The plea shows that Catherine McMasters was, from the time of her birth up to about the age of four years, domiciled in Goliad, the place of her birth, but removed therefrom by those under whose charge she was, to Matamoras, before the declaration of independence. She then was a native Mexican, owing allegiance to the Republic of Mexico. When she was removed, a revolution had commenced, and was subsequently perfected by the declaration of independence. It will not be questioned, it is presumed, that after the close of the revolution, those who had participated in the struggle on either side, by reason of their adherence to Texas or to Mexico, were either Mexicans or Texans, as they adhered to the one side or the other. But how was it with others, who by no act of adherence had made an election? It has been contended for plaintiff in error, that this was settled by the domicil of each individual: if within Texas, then they were Texans; if in Mexico, then they were Mexicans. And in this particular, Catherine McMasters, being a minor, and incapable of will, though removed beyond the limits of Texas before independence was declared, did not forfeit the domicil of her birth, that of her parents, and was a Texan. When reasoning as to domicil, this may all be well enough; but, as before intimated, we are speaking of national character, under particular circumstances; and this, in the circumstances in which Catherine McMasters stood, depended on election. If she had remained in Texas, she would have been regarded as a Texan citizen. But having been removed to Mexico, she thereby adhered to Mexico, though she had no will on the subject; but being a minor, not having power to make an election, she had time until majority to make such election; and when made, she would be a citizen of that State to which she adhered; but in the mean time she could be considered in no other light than a citizen of Mexico. These principles have been recognised in this court, and applied to a case occurring during our revolution. A native-born American, resident in New York, united himself to the English forces in possession of New York, and adhered throughout the struggle to the British side, and went off with the British forces, and died in the British dominions. His son, born in New York, was taken with him, and continued under his charge. This son afterwards claimed an estate by descent, and it was determined that he was an alien, and could not take by descent; and in delivering the judgment of the court, Mr. Justice Thompson says: to be so him at that time.' Again: 'The British doctrine therefore is, that the American ante nati, by remaining in America after the treaty of peace, lost their character of British subjects. And our doctrine is, that by withdrawing from the country and adhering to the British Government, they lost, or perhaps, more properly speaking, never acquired, the character of American citizens.'—Inglis v. The Sailors' Snug Harbor, 3 Peters, 122-'3. And this is the case which shows the distinction between mere questions of domestic domicil and the more important questions as to national character. In the former, the question of domicil of a minor is settled by that of his father, or the last of the father, when he is dead; while in the latter, the national character depends upon election, whether the party be adult or minor, though the act of the father making his election may operate an election for the son, if his dissent be not made in due time. But did Catherine McMasters either show a dissent or an election to become a Mexican, instead of a Texan? It will be seen, by an examination of the plea in question, that she was about four years of age when she was removed by Manuel Sabriego to Matamoras, before the declaration of independence, in March, 1836; she was therefore of age eighteen years afterwards, in the year 1853. We have no evidence of a dissent to the act of removal by Sabriego, or of an election to become a citizen of Texas; and upon the principles established in the case referred to in this court, it must be presumed that she ratified the act of her friend, and remained a citizen of Mexico, and was so by relation from the time of removal and the declaration. But the plea is contradictory in regard to the age of Catherine McMasters, for after the statement of her age before the declaration of independence, it is in another part alleged that she was a minor at the time of filing said plea in 1854. This matter of the age is material; and if the contradiction is to have effect at all, one averment destroys the other, and then there is no good plea, for the want of material averments.th-performance mean time, defence any one. (2 Cranch, 280; 4 ib., 209; 1 Dallas, 53; 20 Johns. R., 313; 3 Peters R., 99,. (3 Peters, 242; 2 J. Cas., 29.) Assuming that the plaintiff is an alien, and not a citizen of Texas, the next question is, whether or not she is under any disability that would prevent her from the assertion of her title to the premises in question; in otherwords, whether her absence and alienage worked a forfeiture of the estate. The general principle is undisputed, that the division of an empire works no forfeiture of a right of property previously acquired. Kelly v. Hamson. (2 J. Cases, 29;as R., 495. The defenceence, for saying that they were made without authority; and hence, altogether void. If voidable, for irregularity or other cause, the question was not one for a court of law in an action to recover possession, but for a court of equity to reform any error or mistake. (9 Peters, 632; 13 ib., 368-'9; 3 Wh., 212, 221; 7 How., 844.) We think a satisfactory answer might be given to the several objections taken to the survey and location; but we prefer to place it upon the ground above stated. The judgment of the court below affirmed.

Vancouver Here’s our Vancouver Gay Guide, with recommendations of gay bars, TOP restaurants, GLBT beaches and parks, and Gay-friendly hotels and Bed-and-breakfasts resources tourism vancouver: tourismvancouver.com qmunity LGBT community center: qmunity.ca aids vancouver: aidsvancouver.org glba – LGBT business association: glba.org xtra! – LGBT newspaper: xtra.ca/vancouver.aspx stay - $ = under $100 - $$ = $100-$175 - $$$ = $175-$350 - $$$$ = over $350 Ashby House$ Location: 989 Bute St Get Directions Phone Number: 604-669-5209 The four rooms of this economical 1899 B&B are named for famed artists and writers, including Oscar Wilde. Opulent Victorian decorative elements throughout the house—including gold-leaf wallpaper, oil paintings, and silver candelabras—evoke the ambience of a stately British home. Breakfasts use organic, fair-trade ingredients. Note that there’s a dog and a cat on premises. Barclay House B&B$$$ Location: 1351 Barclay St., Vancouver Get Directions Phone Number: 604-605-1351 Carefully appointed with antiques, this gay-owned 1904 Victorian cuts a dashing figure, with its primrose-yellow façade, pristine white trim, bay windows, and broad front porch. The five rooms carry a stylish, contemporary aesthetic, with their custom-crafted wood furnishings, earthy hues, and uncluttered layouts. It’s right in the heart of the residential West End—just blocks from beaches, bars, shopping, and Stanley Park. This one often fills up fast, so book early. Blue Horizon Hotel$$ Location: 1348 Robson Street Vancouver, BC, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-688-1411 Website: In the heart of Robson Street’s famous shopping and entertainment strip, this 31-story tower offers a lot considering its reasonable rates. All 214 rooms are large and have corner locations with private balconies—on higher floors, the views are amazing. Internet (though wired) is free, and there’s a decent-size fitness center with heated indoor lap pool. Stanley Park is just down the hill. Delta Vancouver Suites$$$ Location: 550 W Hastings St Vancouver, BC, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-689-8188 Website: Poised as it is between the city’s financial district and the convention center, this solid bet for longer-range business travelers contains 225 rooms spread over 23 floors. Units are all more than 400 square feet, and each has a separate sitting room. Both trendy Gastown and the SkyTrain’s Canada Line are just a block away, the latter providing cheap and direct airport access. Fairmont Pacific Rim$$$$ Location: 1038 Canada Pl Vancouver, BC, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-695-5300 Website: Occupying the lower 22 floors of a shiny 48-story tower completed just before the Olympic Winter Games, the Fairmont Pacific Rim ranks among city’s most desirable addresses. Cheap it ain’t, but you get what you pay for: the 377 rooms (most with great views) are large and luxuriously styled, with marble bathrooms and spa tubs. There’s an incredible 4,000-square-foot gym, a spa offering a full slate of sumptuous treatments, and a breathtaking rooftop pool with private cabanas. Granville Island Hotel$$$ Location: 1253 Johnston St Vancouver, BC V6H 3R9, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-683-7373 Website: On the quieter eastern shore of what’s technically a peninsula, this comfy roost is perfect if you prefer to admire Vancouver’s downtown skyline rather than stay in the middle of it. Modern, gay-friendly, and peaceful, it’s set on the creekside beside a bristle of yachts’ masts. The famous market is only a few hundred feet away. Tiny “aquabuses” link the island with downtown. Loden Vancouver$$$$ Location: 1177 Melville St Vancouver, BC V6E 2S8, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-669-5060 Website: A super-swank, ultra-contemporary boutique hideaway near beautiful Coal Harbour and a short walk south of leafy Stanley Park, the Loden appeals strongly to romantics, who delight in the plush custom beds, deep soaking tubs, and floor-to-ceiling windows, which afford breathtaking mountain and water views. Bring the outside in by booking one of the Garden Terrace rooms, each with lushly landscaped patios. Tableau bar and bistro serves ethereal classic French fare. Metropolitan Hotel$$$ Location: 645 Howe St Vancouver, BC V6C 2Y9, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-687-1122 Website: With tasteful Asian-inspired art and furnishings, solicitous service, and spacious rooms and bathrooms, this 18-story gem offers plenty of bang for the buck—you’d pay a lot more for similar digs at many better-known chain properties downtown. Across the street from the huge Pacific Centre shopping complex and just a 15-minute walk from Davie Street bars and Gastown restaurants, the Metropolitan makes a terrific base camp. There’s a great restaurant, Diva at the Met, beside the lobby. Moda Hotel$$$ Location: 900 Seymour St., Vancouver Get Directions Phone Number: 604-683-4251 This stylish, reasonably priced downtown property lies just blocks from Davie Village and occupies the historic Dufferin Hotel building, which has been transformed into a minimalist-chic boutique hotel with 67 well-proportioned rooms. The rehab incorporates the vintage crown moldings and hardwood floors, and walls are thick enough that you’ll never hear your neighbors. The excellent Cibo Trattoria serves rustic Italian cuisine, and you can start the morning with espresso—or the evening with a glass of Sauvignon Blanc—in Uva Wine Bar. O Canada House$$ Location: 1114 Barclay St Vancouver, BC V6E 1H2, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-688-0555 Website: This gay-owned inn takes its name from having been the home of the composer of Canada’s national anthem. The seven supremely inviting rooms here are done in late Victorian style—some have downtown views or skylights. Common spaces have been warmly refurbished with period furnishings and light fixtures. A decadent three-course gourmet breakfast starts your day; evening sherry, a 24-hour guest pantry, free Wi-Fi, and a book and video library round out the amenities. Opus Vancouver$$$ Location: 322 Davie St Vancouver, BC V6B 2G2, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-642-6787 Website: Anchoring Yaletown’s white-hot glow of modishness, this dapper, 97-room hotel meshes perfectly with the neighborhood’s lofts, boutiques, bistros, and beautiful people. A dream of a hotel for design aficionados, Opus offers rooms in five color schemes, all with the latest in gadgetry and thoughtful extras. Think iPad 2s, LCD flat-screen TVs, heated bathroom floors, and L’Occitaine amenities. The lobby bar scene sees clutches of confident, international movers-and-shakers schmoozing amid velvet couches and ethereal gauze drapes, and Cento Notti serves divine Italian cuisine. Pan Pacific Vancouver$$$$ Location: 999 Canada Place #300 Vancouver, BC V6C 3B5, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-662-8111 Website: This 1986 Vancouver classic puts cruise passengers sailing to and from Canada Place literally at the pier, offering cruise-focused packages that transfer your luggage from shore to ship. Charles and Di, the Dalai Lama, and other luminaries have stayed here. The cushy, contemporary rooms are bathed in calming brown and ivory shades, and nearly all of them have knockout views of mountains, water, or the downtown skyline. Renaissance Vancouver$$$ Location: 1133 W Hastings St Vancouver, BC, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-689-9211 Website: Overlooking Coal Harbour and steps from the convention center and the cruise-ship-port, this upscale, 442-room property gets plenty of business travelers during the week, but rates often dip a bit during the quieter weekends. Despite having leviathan proportions, the Renaissance feels welcoming thanks to top-notch service and attractive rooms decorated with vibrant color schemes and sleek furniture. Rosewood Hotel Georgia$$$ Location: 801 W Georgia St., Vancouver Get Directions Phone Number: 604-682-5566 A Vancouver legend was reborn with the 2011 reopening of this swank city-center property with a star-studded history—Marlene Dietrich supposedly brought 40 suitcases during her memorable stay. An exquisite Canadian art collection tempts guests to linger in many public spaces. Rooms are masterpieces of classic sophistication. The translucent panels in the unique pool are actually the glass ceiling of an event room below. The restaurant Hawksworth has quickly cemented a place among Vancouver’s must-dine establishments. Sandman Suites$$$ Location: 1160 Davie St Vancouver, BC V6E 1N1, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-681-7263 Website: You really can’t get closer to Vancouver’s gay clubbing scene than this all-suites tower in Davie Village. Accommodations are all at least 432 square feet and come with fully equipped kitchens. A fitness room, spa, and heated outdoor pool (in season) provide plenty of opportunities for recreation and relaxation. Upper floors facing away from Davie Street overlook English Bay, which is just a 10-minute walk away. Shangri-La Hotel$$$$ Location: 1128 W Georgia St Vancouver, BC V6E 0A8, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-689-1120 Website: Housed in Vancouver’s tallest (at 61 stories) building, this 119-room stunner is the first North American outpost of the exalted Asian brand. Here you’ll find some of the largest rooms in the city, with sleek marble baths, floor-to-ceiling windows, iPod docks, and bedside controls for the drapes and lighting. It’s in the heart of the downtown business and shopping district, steps from top restaurants, and has its very own culinary notable, Market—part of chef Jean-Georges Vongerichten’s empire. A 5,000-square-foot fitness center and glamorous spa round out the impressive facilities. Sunset Inn & Suites$$$ Location: 1111 Burnaby St., Vancouver Get Directions Phone Number: 604-688-2474 Sure, it has an excellent location just a block from Davie Street (easy stumbling distance home after a big night on the town), but this gay-popular hotel has a lot more going for it: cavernous 500-square-foot (and up) suites with hardwood floors, designer rugs, full kitchens, and plush pillow-top king-size beds; a small fitness room; free Wi-Fi and Continental breakfast; and self-serve laundry (even the soap is free). And here’s a perk nearly unheard of in the city center: free gated parking. The Burrard$$ Location: 1100 Burrard St Vancouver, BC V6Z 1Y9, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-681-2331 Website: Savvy proprietors Andrew and Lee Rennison snatched up an old motor inn and gave it a $3 million face-lift before relaunching it in 2011 as the Burrard. Perched above an unassuming 7-Eleven just a block from Davie Street, this 72-room study in midcentury modern practically screams hipster, but even the uncool can appreciate its myriad charms: free Wi-Fi, bottled water, North American calls, and bike rentals, plus espresso machines and 42-inch HDTVs in every room. The Listel$$$ Location: 1300 Robson St., Vancouver Get Directions Phone Number: 604-690-1852 Website: One of the Northwest’s most stylish boutique hotels, the 129-room Listel. On-site restaurant Forage serves exceptionally good farm-to-table cuisine. The Nelson House$$ Location: 977 Broughton St Vancouver, BC V6G 1J4, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-684-9793 Website: An airy Edwardian mansion a few blocks from Davie Street, this gay-owned B&B offers six distinctive rooms and suites and includes delicious hot breakfasts with the very reasonable rates. The century-old house reflects the travels and tastes of innkeepers David and O’Neal. Room themes runs the gamut from rustic cabin chic to Indian Raj. The clientele skews mostly gay and lesbian. Times Square Suites$$ Location: 1821 Robson St., Vancouver Get Directions Phone Number: 604-684-2223 Just a few blocks from Stanley Park, Coal Harbour, Robson Street shopping, and Denman Street dining, this intimate property offers eight self-contained suites with full kitchens. Situated on a corner above a Starbucks, this is an ideal address for those in town for more than a couple of days or who are traveling with kids, as there’s plenty of room to spread out, and cribs and high chairs are available. West End Guest House$$$ Location: 1362 Haro St Vancouver, BC V6G 2A1, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-681-2889 Website: This posh, magnificently restored early-20th-century mansion has been a favorite address of discerning travelers since it opened as an accommodation in the mid-’80s. The seven exquisitely furnished rooms, including one endearingly tiny room that’s a great budget option, contain many of the modern amenities you’d expect at a larger hotel, making this a favorite of business travelers.Back to Top Eat - $ = under $10 - $$ = $10-$20 - $$$ = $20-$30 - $$$$ = over $30 Alibi Room$$ Location: 157 Alexander Street Vancouver, BC V6A 1B8, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-623-338 Website: As much a bar as a restaurant, this handsome multilevel space with tall windows and sidewalk seating offers communal tables, weekend script readings, and occasional DJs. Beer fanatics can’t resist the casks, one-off kegs, flights, and artisan brews, such as Brother Thelonious Dark Abbey Ale. On the food side, expect ethically sourced and ocean-friendly entrées such as wild smoked salmon Benedicts and bison cheesesteaks. Au Petit Chavignol (closed)$$ Location: 843 E Hastings St., Vancouver Get Directions Phone Number: 604-255-4218 Serious cheese lovers are a dedicated lot, so much that they’ll brave downtown’s dreary east side to seek out this curd-tastic, Gruyère-oovy dairy mecca. Beside the renowned Les Amis du Fromage cheese shop, this cozy restaurant serves an impressive array of fondues and raclettes, plus charcuterie and cheese platters (with an emphasis on BC varieties) and a stellar cheeseburger that can be topped with anything from smoked caciocavallo to Emmentaler. There’s also a terrific wine list, bien sûr. BierCraft Tap & Tapas$$ Location: 1191 Commercial Dr Vancouver, BC V5L 3X2, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-254-2437 Website: A recent name change hasn’t stopped East Van folks from stopping into the former Stella’s to guzzle a few of the 120 Belgian and craft brews and snack on roasted-vegetable risotto balls and beer-and-chile-braised taquitos. This mid-Commercial destination has a super-popular side patio that brims with people all summer long. Bin 941$$$ Location: 941 Davie Street Vancouver, BC V6Z 1B9, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-683-1246 Website: Grab a bar seat overlooking the exhibition kitchen or at one of the small tables that line this trendy, lively tapas and wine bar, in which chef Gord Martin serves fusion-y global fare. Hearty, soul-warming favorites include braised short ribs with butternut squash puree and local mussels in garam masala–coconut curry. Blue Water Café$$$ Location: 1095 Hamilton St Vancouver, BC V6B 2W7, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-688-8078 Website: The seafood restaurant that’s made arguably the biggest splash on the Vancouver scene, this converted Yaletown warehouse boasts red-brick walls, a heated patio, and a lively raw bar. The shoals of exquisite fruits de mer served here are wild and sustainable, including about 20 types of oyster on the half shell (most from BC waters) and tempting main dishes like buttery West Coast sablefish and Qualicum Bay scallops. Boneta$$$ Location: 12 Water Street Vancouver BC V6B 1A5 Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-684-1844 Website: An industrial space with an industrious chef—Jason Liezert—serving pan-European comfort food, this hip Gastown bistro packs in a foodie-minded crowd. Also popular with cocktail aficionados, Boneta gets everything right from the first sip of a Green Eyed Devil (pear, sake, and green tea) to the last bite of that side of deep-fried octopus chips. Elbow Room$ Location: 560 Davie Street Vancouver, V6B, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-685-3628 Website: Even with its grouchy motto, “eggs and abuse,” this Davie Street institution has been drawing a steady stream of devotees (and the occasional visiting movie star) since 1983. Brash servers deliver plenty of attitude, along with huge plates of morning sustenance—consider the mammoth and meaty Lumberjack Breakfast or any of the eggs Benedict plates. Servers keep a keen eye out for uneaten edibles; you’ll be asked to make a donation to charity if you can’t finish your meal. Gurkha Himalayan Kitchen$$ Location: 1141 Davie Street, Vancouver, BC V6E 1N2, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-565-7965 Website: A welcome addition to Vancouver’s already impressive supply of Asian eateries, this Nepali restaurant is perched on the second floor of a Davie Village house, in a cozy room with smart modern decor accented by traditional artistic touches. Fresh local ingredients and Nepali herbs and spices are used to create clean, nuanced flavors. Daal-bhaat (lentils and rice), achaar (chutneys), momos (Tibetan steamed dumplings), and curries make up the backbone of a menu that incorporates vibrant Indian, Chinese, and Tibetan influences. Hamburger Mary’s$$ Location: 1202 Davie St., Vancouver Get Directions Phone Number: 604-687-1293 One of the original stalwarts of the Davie strip, Mary’s is a way-gay diner with straightforward sandwiches, burgers, and breakfast fare. The well-shaded patio runs the length of the restaurant—perfect for people-watching. Old-school ’70s décor and comfy booths create a retro look. Hapa Izakaya$$ Location: 1479 Robson St Vancouver, BC V6E 1C6, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-689-4272 Website: Hapa on Robson, one of Canada’s first izakaya, took Vancouver by storm back in 2003, and the ripples have yet to subside. Having spurred the opening of three other fine grills around the city, the original Hapa specializes in hot and cold Japanese tapas and larger plates, such as the Ishi-Yaki hot-stone rice bowl with minced pork, flower chives, and spicy miso. Havana Restaurant$$ Location: 1212 Commercial Dr Vancouver, BC V5L 3X4, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-253-9119 Website: With a funky, artfully shabby interior and a huge heated patio, this venerable hangout on The Drive channels vintage Cuba with both its ambience and its food. Many regulars swear by the breakfasts, which feature an especially delicious chorizo hash topped with poached eggs. For lunch and dinner, consider a few tapas (tuna ceviche, jerk-chicken tacos) or a flavorful rendering of the Latin classic, ropa vieja. Kitsilano Daily Kitchen$$$ Location: 1809 W 1st Ave Vancouver, BC V6J 1G5, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-569-2741 Website: Living up to its name, this Kits kitchen changes everything up nightly. Those who appreciate the element of surprise can opt for the six-course Culinary Adventure menu, leaving their experience in the creative hands of chef Brian Fowke. Recent offerings from the kitchen’s slow-food-inspired repertoire have included confit duckling miso and scallops with barley risotto and white-truffle lobster broth. La Brasserie$$$ Location: 1091 Davie St Vancouver, BC V6E 1M5, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-568-6499 Website: This upscale French-German bistro is a find in Davie Village. Passersby can see the kitchen through the windows and are inevitably lured in after glimpsing specialties like suckling pig and mussels and frites. The Alsatian onion tart is a wonderful starter. Prepare to be pampered with impeccable service and top-rate food. Brasserie’s downtown food cart serves a delish beer-brined chicken sandwich. Melriches Coffee House$ Location: 1244 Davie Street Vancouver, BC V6E 1N3, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-689-5282 Website: In a town overrun with coffee chains, Melriches is refreshingly local, with beans roasted by Vancouver’s Bean Around the World. To see and be seen, choose a seat in the window. The handcrafted chai, made with loose-leaf tea, is a worthy elixir, and breakfast items are served all day. Motomachi Shokudo$ Location: 740 Denman St., Vancouver Get Directions Phone Number: 604-609-0310 Expect a line to get into this tiny spot that may just serve the best ramen in the city. The bamboo-charcoal ramen, unusual in appearance, has no rival in depth of flavor and simple complexity. Raincity Grill$$$ Location: 1193 Denman St Vancouver, BC V6G 2N1, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-685-7337 Website: Several West End restaurants afford awesome views of English Bay, but one-of-a-kind Raincity Grill stands out for its romantic atmosphere and inventive West Coast cuisine, focused on locally sourced foods. Menus change seasonally—the 100-mile tasting menu provides a great opportunity to sample a variety of ingredients. Oenophiles appreciate the cellar’s long list of Pacific Northwest selections. Salt Tasting Room$$ Location: 45 Blood Alley Square, Vancouver, British Columbia V6B 0C4, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-633-1912 Website: A slice of country French sophistication tucked down a Gastown alleyway, Salt is a natty loved-by-locals spot that lets you sample superb artisanal cheeses, cured meats, and fantastic wines. Put together your own mix-and-match tasting plate, then select an accompanying flight of wine or beer (or let the expert servers do it for you). Society$$ Location: 1257 Hamilton St., Vancouver Get Directions Phone Number: 604-629-8800 A fixture along Yaletown’s Hamilton Street restaurant row and a member of Vancouver’s glitzy, nightclub-inspired Glowbal Collection, Society takes a novel approach to traditional fare. There’s truffle in the mac and cheese, and there’s spiced-dill mascarpone on the salmon burger. Most famous are Society’s milkshakes, several of which are spiked, including the luscious Lucky Charm, an intoxicating blend of Guinness with vanilla and chocolate ice cream. Thai Basil$ Location: 1215 Thurlow Street Vancouver, BC V6E 1X4, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-685-6754 Website: This tiny space in Davie Village serves authentic, affordable Thai classics, including red curry with pumpkin and traditional pad kee mao noodles. Dinner combos are a steal and include your choice of entrée, plus salad, rice, and spring roll. With only about five tables, the space can feel cramped, but you can always order takeout and enjoy a picnic at nearby Sunset Beach. The Naam$ Location: 2727 W 4th Ave Vancouver, BC V6K 3W2, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-738-7151 Website: A throwback to Kitsilano’s long-ago tie-dye days, this funky, 24-hour vegetarian eatery attracts an eclectic bunch, including yoga mums, impecunious students, and local New Agers. Substantial breakfasts, healthy lunches, and “dragon bowls” (with rice, veggies, and spicy sauces) feature on the menu. Homemade pies and decadent raspberry-chocolate cake make perfect endings. Twisted Fork$$ Location: 1147 Granville St Vancouver, BC V6B 2G6, Canada Get Directions Phone Number: 604-568-0749 Website: Steps from Davie gay bars, the diminutive, laid-back Twisted Fork tempts with unusual twists on French bistro fare. The menu changes frequently, with an emphasis on local BC ingredients. Tried-and-true dishes like succulent beef bourguignonne are featured alongside oxtail soup, cured local duck breast, and fall-off-the-bone lamb shank. An all-BC wine list and carefully selected microbrew list provide plenty of interesting choices. Vij’s$$$ Location: 1480 11th Ave W, Vancouver Get Directions Phone Number: 604-736-6664 Website: Vikram Vij’s innovative take on Indian cuisine has earned this dimly lighted restaurant just south of Granville Island considerable national acclaim. Wine-marinated lamb popsicles with fenugreek-curry glaze and roasted eggplant and butternut squash with black chickpeas are a couple of standouts, but if grilled sablefish graces the menu, don’t miss it. Reservations aren’t taken, but complimentary chai and snacks are served in the lounge until seats open up.Back to Top play Explore English Bay and Sunset BeachesFree Location: 1700 Beach Avenue Vancouver, BC V6E 1V3, Canada Get Directions Just south of Stanley Park’s beaches, which are also quite scenic and enjoyable, English Bay Beach runs from the foot of Denman Street south about a kilometer to Sunset Beach, and although it’s a short stroll from the Davie Street gay scene and thus hugely popular with LGBT sun-worshippers, it’s actually a favorite hangout of most Vancouverites. You’ll find lots to do here, from sand volleyball to cavorting on a huge waterslide. At Sunset Beach, you can drop by the Vancouver Aquatic Centre for a swim (the GLBT English Bay Swim Club meets here) or catch the water taxi to Granville Island. Beach Avenue from Denman to Burrard Streets. Wreck BeachFree Location: SW Marine Drive, just north of University Boulevard Get Directions Perched on the tip of Point Grey on the west edge of the University of British Columbia campus, Vancouver’s secluded clothing-optional strand is infamous for its “anything goes” vibe. Several trails lead down through the forest of pines, oaks, and cedars to Wreck Beach, with Trails 6 and 7 being the best for reaching the gay section, which is at the southern end of the beach toward the mouth of the Fraser River. Enterprising vendors selling everything from beer and sushi to various illicit substances are all around, especially near the base of Trail 6. SW Marine Drive, just north of University Boulevard.Back to Top

“The ceasefire between Israel and Hamas could yet be an unlikely foundation for peace” (pontificates idiotically The Economist’s “Old battles, new Middle East“). More prosaically, anti-missile systems were tested. Iron Dome intercepted 425+ Gaza missiles. There cannot be peace in the Middle East, as long as Islam is the dominant system of mood. Islam started as an anti-Jewish machine: Muhammad turned against his hosts, who had inspired him, and massacred an entire tribe in mostly Jewish Yathrib (thereafter to be called Medina, the second most sacred city in Islam). Faithfully following Roman and Roman Catholic genocidal fascism, Islam put its foot on Jerusalem’s bloodied face, insulting it as the third most sacred city in Islam: In 1217 CE, Spanish Rabbi Judah al-Harizi found the sight of the Muslim fortifications on the Jewish Temple Mount profoundly disturbing. “What torment to see our holy courts converted into an alien temple!” Jerusalem had been the capital of various Jewish states for about 2,000 years. 2,000 years prior to the invention of Islam. Islam has no less than two mosques on top of the most sacred place of Judaism. Those mosques were built (late 8th C), 13 (yes, thirteen) centuries after the destruction of the first Jewish temple by the Babylonians. It’s worse than rising mosques on top of a razed Notre Dame, while calling Paris the fourth most sacred city in Islam. Muhammad is supposed to have taken flight from there, the Jewish Temple mount, in an apparent imitation of the thoroughly undocumented Christ (many turkeys fly from the same spot). The vampire gorged on blood takes flight from the neck of its victim. Islam was also an anti-Western war machine, and, as long as it functions as a dominant mode of thinking of Middle Earth, and the West has not been defeated, there will be war. We have plenty of (sacred) statements in the Hadith about attacking the West deliberately. Bukhari is the second most authoritative source in Islam after the Qur’an: “He heard the Prophet saying, ‘Paradise is granted to the first batch of my followers who will undertake a naval expedition.’ The Prophet then said, ‘The first army amongst my followers who will invade Caesar’s City will be forgiven their sins.’” [Bukhari:V4B52N175] So much for Islam being a religion of peace. Muslims sieged Constantinople three times: 674-678 CE, 717-718 CE, and 1453 CE. On August 28, 846 CE an Arab army invaded Rome by surprise, and took over the Vatican. Yes, the Muslims succeeded where Hannibal had failed. One never talks about it, prefering to call attention to Hannibal and the Crusades, always (an obvious bias in context building!). This attack on Rome was no joke: the Frankish army holding north-west Rome and the Vatican was killed to the last man. The Muslims in and around Rome were repelled after hard fighting over several months, by Frankish relief armies. Arab invasions rolled over Europe for 1,000 years, coming not far from Paris more than once, sieging Vienna, twice, occupying Saint Tropez, much of Provence, Switzerland, Greece, much of Italy, for decades, sometimes centuries… Exerting their obnoxious oppression all along (non Muslims were strongly discriminated against, in many ways, and had to submit, lest they would be summarily executed; marks on clothing akin to the Nazis’ yellow star had to be worn by the non Muslims; Muslim warriors could grab maidens and decide that was a “battlefield marriage” [institutionalized rape] but non Muslims men could not marry a Muslim, something true to this day, etc.). .’“ [Bukhari:V4B52N267] “Umar [the Second Caliph].’” [Bukhari:V4B53N386] It’s all about the luxurious life: be a martyr, and luxury is yours, you greedy murderous ones! It’s not me parodying Islam saying this. It’s the most sacred texts of Islam defining Islam thus. Notice the quotes are long, their contexts clear. But we have to be careful: nowadays, just describing the Prophet, as he is described in the Qur’an and the Hadith, is viewed as a grave insult against the prophet, even if all and any Muslim scholars know these very things are the basics of the Islamist faith. In other words, Islamist “scholars” view Islam as an insult against islam, as long as it is described by non Muslims. For all the pillow talk about peace in the Middle East, Islam is the pachyderm from hell breathing over the bed in the room above the whispering lovers. The Middle East has not yet been separated from its local, plutocratic friendly, superstition, Islam. Islam, as it is, truly, not as it is hoped to be by pseudo-progressives who have made a business model from mouthing wishful thinking, as a form of soft intellectual fascism. Let’s all read the Qur’an, line by line. It’s only 80,000 words, everybody, even pseudo-progressives, with their tiny brains, could do it. Maybe too busy self caressing pseudo-progressives are? What do we see in the Qur’an? A repetitive litany of lethal or abusive orders (from God, no less!) many victimizing people who are accused of misinterpreting God, such as the Jews, Christians, ill defined “unbelievers”, etc. Apparently unsatisfied with murderously intolerant fanaticism, the Qur’an is clearly not friendly to democracy. Allah wants the faithful to obey whoever detains power: “O Ye Who Believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and OBEY THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE IN POWER.” (Sura 4; verse 59).” Thus the Qur’an makes fascism part of worship. No wonder all leaders in Islamist countries become dictators (even Erdogan in Turkey is trying his best). Thus Islam or democracy and peace? That is the question in the Middle East, still stuck in theocracy, 13 centuries and going strong. *** WHEN EUROPE WAS UNDER THE SPELL OF WOULD BE CHILD ASSASSIN ABRAHAM, IT WAS NOT PRETTY EITHER: Superstition going crazy is not confined to the Middle East. Europe has know two phases of murderous insane superstitionism. The first religious madness put an end to Romanitas, an ill fated, all too restrictive society that could survive only by ever augmenting its fascism, while fragmenting into mini tyrannies from local plutocrats. Diseased Romanitas was replaced by the more advanced Frankish philosophy which included in the power structure of society Jews, Pagans, women, all sorts of Germans, Romans, and even the ex-slaves. The ugly oppression of the Abrahamic religion went into an eclipse that lasted six centuries. (Nothing symbolized it better than the nationalization of the church by Charles Martel around 730 CE!) However, the Crusades allowed Abraham to rise its ugly snout again. The cult of a child molester does the plutocratic mood wonders. One Crusade, in France, killed one million. One million French. Or more. For five or six centuries plutocrats, hiding behind Abraham’s throat cutting ways, were at each others’ throats. The Europe was torn by terrible religious wars over a century centered on 1600 CE. France had no less than eight religious wars at the end of the 16th Century. Some of these wars caused the death of more than 30% of the population. Before weapons of mass destruction. Finally central governments won the struggle, and took over, re-birthing (re-naissance) the Roman style command and control. The religious murderous madness was stopped when religion got defanged, and rigorously separated from the state, while the Republic became the ruling religion. Not yet the case in the Middle East… Except for Israel (paradoxically). *** CLASH OF A SUPERSTITION WITH CIVILIZATION: Make no mistake: between Israel and the Arabs, at this point, it is still a religious war. No peace is possible as long as temple based terrorism lurks above. The Economist, in an orgasm of naivety, urges Obama to do something about Israel and Palestine. But what to do against superstition and fanaticism? It’s a philosopher’s task. The best one can expect from Obama is Machiavellism. And we are getting some. Obama is right to not squander his time splitting superstitious hair in a finer way than the fanatical participants already do. Obama got involved, sure. Obama very wisely decided that the USA would finance most of the Iron Dome (in exchange for a technology transfer!). It was wise. Iron Dome, and the coming David Sling will do more to calm down fascism, than soothing words of debasing appeasement. Once democracy, the people, rules, there will be peace. But the people has existed for a million years, and the Republic is its basic religion, its basic atavism. No objective observer can say it is compatible with burning people for all the litany of reasons found in the Qur’an. Seven centuries ago, in Egypt, interpreting the Qur’an literally was punished with imprisonment. Time to reboot that, if peace is really what one is after. *** QUR’AN BAD, BIBLE WORSE: SO? The Economist published my comment above. The anonymous L6QjhvJGVk in reply to Tyranosopher Nov 23rd, came up with a number of interesting quotes of the Bible. Said he: “Although I am not religious (as an agnostic), the Koran is very mild compared to the Bible.” Right, L6QjhvJGVk, but the Bible does not have more than a billion fanatical followers, today. Literal Bible reading is mostly a problem confined to places in Russia, the USA and Israel. One can spit all day long on the Bible, and burn it with gusto. All that will happen is that one will not be taken seriously. But in Muslim lands, it’s quite the opposite, one is taken all too seriously. Doing symbolic violence to the Qur’an hate book may get you executed. Once somebody was condemned to death, in a Muslim country, for having said something unbecoming about Jesus (!), a prophet of Islam. Even in countries such as France, supposedly philosophically enlightened, there is a dangerous confusion between criticizing a religion, and racial hatred (are the somewhat Christianophobic, such as me, hating the Christian race?). This legal confusion has had very practical, very disastrous consequences. It enabled the growth of Muslim Fundamentalism of the lethal type, because criticizing the Qur’an, arguably a hate book if there ever has been one, has been equated to racism. Thus Quranic violence was made into something sacred. It is a bit of a paradox that it is honorable to kill bin Laden, but not to trash his ideas! In contrast, I believe that the best way to kill inferior ideas is with superior ideas. L6QjhvJGVk Bible and Jewish quotes are reproduced in the comments (however, within them L6QjhvJGVk exhibits plain anti-Judaism, Nazi style, as he evokes a word Hitler used, “genetic” in derogatory relation to the Jews, showing an emotional anti-Jew slant). *** Left and Right. in reply to L6QjhvJGVk Nov 23rd, 09:23 observed: “There is no comparison [between following the Bible and being submitted to the Qur'an]. The Bible is advisory and there are no penalties to deny or question it. Islam requires a total belief in the whole of the Koran as directly written by Allah. To question it or to deny it is apostasy the penalty for which is death. This can tend to remove the chance to discuss things rationally. The poor performance, educationally, socially and economically of Muslims is, I believe hindered by the absolving of personal responsibility with the need to suffix every statement with Inshallah, if God wills it, in my experience he seldom does. My Muslin dentist tells me the world in 6000 years old, as stated in the Koran – well this could explain the dearth of Nobel Scientific awards to Muslims. Oh for the enlightenment!” I agree 100% with Left and Right. Except that the Roman emperors, even before Theodosius, imposed Catholic terror (loosely based on the New Testament). The reason for constant Muslim civil wars of the worst type is precisely that to question the other believer’s interpretation of the Qur’an or to deny it is apostasy, as far as the other believer is concerned, the penalty for which is death. Hence the total intolerance of Muslim: just draw a guy with a turban, call it Muhammad, see what happens. You may not have time to put it below foot. Thus the Dome of the Rock’s location is a well understood insult. *** Attendant Lord in reply to L6QjhvJGVk Nov 23rd: “You overlook that the portions of these religious books that reflect values from another time are dead as a doornail in Judaism and in Israel, a modern state with modern values, and alive and well under Islamist states, whose leadership believes that it should all be kept alive, just as it was written.” *** Thank you L6QjhvJGVk, for rolling out barbarity from the Bible, there are never enough rivers of obnoxious data flowing to nourish the humanistic, progressive ocean! The Abrahamic religion has to be crushed always. A state came up with the following law: “The safety and security of the Commonwealth cannot be achieved apart from reliance upon Almighty God.” Those who disagree are to be sent to jail 12 months. That’s the law since before 2006, when the Supreme Court of that state refused to consider its constitutionality. So it is in Kentucky, USA. If the Abrahamists, with their psycho god, are not crushed there, they will grow under the sign of the beast, and eat civilization up, as they did in the East. As when Bush brandished Qur’an and Bible to bring the true faith to Iraq (in his self described “crusade“). Islamism is just a variant, an heresy of Judaism, somewhat desertified, somewhat Christianized, somewhat modernized. So if the Bible is really bad, it’s only natural that the Qur’an would be so too. Since the latter mostly apes the former. (The holly Qur’an can be innovative, though: Apparently Muhammad conceived of stem cells, demonstrating how wise he was! Qur’an Surah 4, Verse 56: “Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses – We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment again. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.”) As a self declared follower of the Abrahamic religion, the Prophet venerated the Bible, and his beef with the Jews was that they did not follow the Bible rigorously enough. That the Bible was grotesquely dangerous, and immoral, interpreted literally has been known since the birth of Christianity. Wrote Augustine: Title of Book III, Chapter 5 of his famous City of God”. “It Is A Wretched Slavery Which Takes The Figurative Expressions of Scripture in A Literal Sense.” In spite of this, Augustine was the first theoretician of the dispersal of the Jews out of Israel, thus causing their departure, followed by their subsequent return… Of course Augustine (around 400 CE) was following emperor Hadrian’s decrees against the Jews, like the dog follows his master. After the second Jewish revolt, in 132 CE, the Romans defeated the Jewish army in 135 CE. Thereupon, Jerusalem, the capital of he Jews, was turned into a Greco-Roman city called Aelia Capitolina. A temple of Jupiter was built on top of the Jewish Temple, razed by the Romans. Thus the idea of putting the enormous Dome of the Rock in place of the Temple is a Roman fascist idea that has become sacred to Muslims! In other words, of Rome, Muslims worship the worst. Another troubling fact, is that the Temple Mount is also considered to be Mount Zion. does that mean that, by worshipping the Dome of the Rock (roughly the oldest mosque), Muslims are Zionists? In some sense? Emperor Hadrian forbid to the Jews to live in Jerusalem. Hadrian changed the country’s name from Judea to Syria Palestina. United Nations, version 135 CE. However, these atrocious facts over which the otherwise much esteemed Hadrian presided, got to be known, and taken for what they were, in the fullness of time: genocide. By 1948 CE, the United Nations, a sort of modernized Rome (before the Roman Republic became an outright imperium), decided to undo the horror visited by Hadrian, and more or less enforced ever since. Actually the UN followed a Roman precedent. Emperor Julian, philosopher and critique of the monstrosity of the rule of Catholicism, had ordered the RECONSTRUCTION of the Jewish Temple in 360 CE (earthquakes, and Christian fanaticism, including the assassination of Julian, prevented the work to proceed!) So here we are. In the last seven years, the Palestinians have fired nearly 7,000 rockets at Israel, killing 51 Israelis, and losing nearly 3,200 of their own. “Israel is gaining time… cutting the grass“, as Israelis put it. The time Israel did not have in 132-135 CE. History never dies. Only armies do. Why don’t Muslims eat pigs? The first order explanation, like for most things Muslim is that, so it was in the Bible, and Muslims follow the Bible, when in doubt. More sophisticated was Maimonides, the Jewish philosopher under the Caliphate, physician to Saladin in the Twelfth Century. He understood the dietary laws chiefly as keeping the body healthy. The meat of the forbidden animals, birds, and fish was indigestible, according to Maimonides. However this does not apply to pork, he observed. But pigs are more dirty than human latrines, so had to be avoided, he obviated. A beauty of Islam is that it has no centralized authority as far as what it truly says. As the Qur’an is very small, it has been supplemented by all sorts of books and gossip, the Sunnah and Hadith being the most prominent. Muslims tend to kill each other, because they differ about the authors of Hadith who are viewed as reputable. Or by how seriously they take this and that gossip (= “reputable authority“, a frequently used notion in Islam scholarship). On top of that, local traditions have their own little stories. Once I asked a knowledgeable woman in Africa, a Muslim religious authority, why Muslims did not eat pigs. She told me a story I have never come across again. She told me that once Muhammad and his army, in a forest, got very thirsty. Then they saw a pig. They followed it until it reached water. Thereafter, a grateful Muhammad ordered his followers to give pigs a chance. The surrealism of it all left me speechless. So some black Africans hold that Muslims follow the one who followed the pig? It’s unlikely that blindly following the One who followed the pig will give peace a chance, because he gave pigs a chance. The fascist instinct, that is, following The One, in this case a long dead analphabet raider, blindly, is exactly the opposite of peace, pigs or no pigs. Yesterday’s god, like yesterday’s history, is senile, incoherent, repetitive, and dangerous. Time to break the cycle. Otherwise, there is an Iron Dome to show you. *** Patrice Ayme

Czarek Sokolowski / AP. Small town, big Jesus Explore related topics: jesus, poland, statue, swiebodzin Jesus Christ! One question please........ aside from cost of this statue - why do atheists feel it necessary to mock and make nasty comments concerning Christians. Truly, I have never heard a Christian call you down, make fun of your non-belief or doubts. We might silently pray for you, but wonder why you have to be downright nasty and ugly. Have you ever heard of Respect? Live and let live? I bet all you atheists have family members, friends, co-workers connected to a religion and worship in churches, temples, synagogues....do you express your feelings to them in person? Laugh at their 'stupidity', call them 'ignorant'? No! Why? because you need your family, you need your friends, and as for co-workers - your boss would probably fire you if you acted that way on the job. So it comes down to most of you being hypocrits - you can only vent your feelings annonymously in letters or postings. So put on your big boy or big girl panties - if you can't say it in person, don't put it in writing. Have a great day! Nice Ellie! Well spoken.... Jesus loves all people weather you love Him or not/ no matter what you have done, He wants to wash you and make you clean, wouldnt that be nice...But, He wont strive with us forever which means... there is "a cut off time" that no one knows...Get with the program people, blow off the dust from your bible and BE like Jesus. Dont look at the stupid mistakes people make as an excuse not to believe, it wont work on Judgement Day :) If you dont have a bible, just ask one of us "Jesus freaks" and they will give you one, free. I don't have any problem with them erecting a statue of Jesus Christ. If I have any problem at all with anything and I suppose I'm the only one that does, it is this: Why is Jesus Christ wearing a gold crown? Only crown I recall him ever wearing was made of thorns. @Ellie Oh please. You haven't lived the shoes of an atheist. We get discriminated against ALL THE TIME! We are the last minority where it is considered okay to discriminate against. Yes, I have family and friends that are theists and I try to express my views to them all the time, but I get the cold shoulder because apparently Christians are afraid to talk about their beliefs to non-Christians. And if my boss fired me because I was not Christian, then you bet your @ss that I would sue. The fact that atheists have to vent their feelings anonymously only goes to show how intolerant Christians are. Christianity is a sick and immoral cult. This statue is a huge waste of money and resources that could have gone to feeding a starving child but instead you Christians have to go and flaunt your messiah. I'm not an athiest, I'm agnostic. But I've been treated like dirt by Christians many many times. One holiday, I was chastised by the people with whom I work for taking down the Christmas decorations before the Epiphany. Though the supervisors asked me to do it, I was treated like the anti-christ for not giving a damn about Christmas in mid-January. And the horror when they realized I didn't decorate my home for Easter. I don't have a problem with Christians. I even voted -- several times -- to keep a local cross on a hill, though it's federal land. You have faith, great. I have tried. I don't believe in blind adherance to any ideology and I like to think for myself. So let's just agree to disagree. Dear Lola3, I do truly hope you are not gambling with your eternity on the stupidity of "people". The kindest person in the world will let you down dear. Get past the people thing, get your eyes OFF people and put them on The Lord Jesus. You Wont be let down or disappointed is what His words and actions say. And you said blind adherence, there is "nothing" blind about Him or faith. You said you tried, why did you give up? Dont worry about what people say, read you bible first and dont worry about church goers, you dont need to worry about them or impress them. Just DO what your bible tells you to and you cant go wrong. It sounds like you were hurt by someone or just gave in to your desires (sin) but God did not give up on you :) Get back on the horse, thats what life is all about. This time, REALLY study the word and dont push yourself too much. Enjoy it/ get away from those who would discourage you. Find a "good" bible "teacher" not just a preacher and you will be AMAZED at how fun it is and how captivating it is. God knows we are just made of dirt, He can deal with our faults through His perfect Son Jesus. Just dont give up :) ever!! No matter what! Thats what will get Gods attention. We know that from the bible. May He bless you and heal you sister. No thank you. I have made my choice and I'm happy with my lack of faith in any god. You have fun though. @ThunderProof: "Why is Jesus Christ wearing a gold crown? Only crown I recall him ever wearing was made of thorns." Here in Poland Jesus has been crowned and named "king of Poland". So its some kind of symbol what people belive in. Jesus isn't sooo tall in Bible too ;) Read your bible just a bit more my friend, you will know why. Its all good :) Think future.....Hummm The New Jerusalem....Hummmm Thanks for the info too. I love His new name :) What a stupid waste of money - a shrine to an imaginary god. Prove He is imaginary :) You would have to claim to have all knowledge of everything there is to know about everything to say "Im an atheist". You are saying that in all the things you dont know, God does not exist. The top scientist say that visible matter is only about 10% of "reality" as we know it. Talk about faith and religion, now thats a fairytale religion. No factual basis for that kind of belief. You cant claim ignorance, you have been warned by the watchman on the tower. Jesus is coming back and we will all stand before Him and have to give an account. You cant earn the right to be in Gods family. His son paid the price with His life and all you have to do is accept the redemption He offers, free of charge. We will NEVER be "good enough", just say thank you and serve your KING. The burden of proof is on you to prove that your definition of god exists, not on the atheist. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a theistic deity. Atheism is the rational position to take in light of insufficient evidence for a theistic deity. Prove he exists ? Can you give us a date when he is likely to show up ? Ellie 123... I think you need to read a lot more (try the non fiction area of the library) Atheist are the least liked people in the US: Lack of non belief and younger critical thinkers are the biggest threat to religion. In the old days we were just slaughtered, last days we were educated to make us respect people that pray to fresh air. These days we tell it like it is a bunch of BS. You would be surprised how much your beleifs in a invisible god tries to dictate society. You were saying? As surprised to see how many self-proclaimed 'athiests' look towards their denied deity when the ground starts to shake? @ kubush84 Still, you have to claim to have all knowledge of everything to say Im an atheist. You have "no proof". I know for a fact, If you read your bible and took the time to "Seriously investigate" its authenticity, you would come to only ONE conclusion. Maybe you are just lazy, there is nothing to be afraid of. There is no burden on "me". I cant give you answers for something you dont understand.... I want to join a nuclear physics class but before I sign up, I want all the answers, PFFT! Come on! Analysis = You would not understand the answers even if you were given the answers. DIY + pray to your maker and ask Him to make Himself known to you with an honest heart and you wont be denied. Its His promise to you as stated in "His word". :) @HIS child-2382068 Nonsense. I am an atheist because I do not accept the theistic claim of a deity. Atheism is the lack of belief, it is not a belief in it of itself. Would you have to have 100% knowledge of everything in order for you to say "Santa clause does not exist"? No, of course not. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim that X exists. "I know for a fact, If you read your bible and took the time to..." Apparently you don't realize how ignorant it is to claim knowledge without any evidence whatsoever. I have read and studied the bible, as have many ex-christians atheists and have come to the only logical and rational conclusion that your bible is wrong and that your god does not exist. I am saying this as a positive claim because if the existence of your god being real is defined and contingent upon the bible being 100% correct, then I can show you why it is not. Get off your high horse and don't talk down to me simply because I don't buy your bronze age superstitious myth. Pretending that you can't answer serious critical questions about your religion because I won't understand them, is just an excuse because you know in your heart that you can't defend the nonsense that you accept. "pray to your maker and ask Him to make Himself known to you with an honest heart and you wont be denied. Its His promise to you as stated in "His word". :)" I have and so have many other atheists but nothing happened. So apparently his "word" was wrong. :) Jesus Christ, that's a big statue. Hell yes, biggest graven image I ever did see! What a waste of resources. Who wants to see a 167 foot statue of anyone? Looks like it belongs in Jesus Disneyland. Just more crap cluttering up the landscape. [sarcasm] Go see the new 24 million Kc clock on the town square of Brno, Czech Republic instead. It doesn't show the time (seriously), but it does dispense a glass ball at 11:00 every day. (What will those former Communists think of next?) Build the biggest statue of your god, and he'll shower you with rewards! Just look at how well that worked out for the ancient Greeks...and Romans...and Egyptians, Phoenicians, etc etc All of which were pagans, and non-believers. not much of a point now, is it. If you define "pagan" as "any religion that is not Christian" then what is the point of pointing that out? They most definitely were believers of their gods. His point still stands. PS - So, this community in Poland has NO starving people, NO need for government assisted medical programs, NO alcoholics, NO prostitutes, NO children in need of a state-funded education ... because if they DID, they SURELY wouldn't waste the resources to build a 167 foot tall statue of jebus.... right? wow, what a waste of money, this show the stupidity of people and they damed religions, shame. And the point is? The One and only King! All the scoffing wont make it not so, give up now or later, He loves you no matter what you have done or said....but be caaaareful time is running out :) Sure, He doesnt like idols but He judges the hearts intention......What do you use your money for??? DOH!! Serve your King! I use money to feed my family. I do not have any "soul" and your Jesus was a charlatan preacher who died two thousand years ago after making money by "curing" diseases by speaking Hebrew to "spirits". And believe me, each of his patients would have prefered Mayo Clinic to "talking to spirits" if they had the opportunity. They used their money to get You to "think" about Jesus. Food goes away, your soul Does Not...Ever, in a place where time does not exist. @Alex-1488986 Your opinion pretty much matches the one I used to hold, though I did tend to blame much of the mythologizing on people who came well after Jesus' lifetime. However, after having not giving it much thought since around my early thirties (I'm currently 54) I ran into an article that caused me to doubt whether Jesus actually existed at all. Anywhosits, long story short, the piece piqued my interest enough to pursue the topic and so I read a good deal more, both pro and con, on the subject. Now, as a result of that reading, I am quite convinced that the person of Jesus is an utter fiction. (Bad news for those Christians who enjoy disparaging Muslims: The "Prophet" Muhammad was, in contrast to Jesus, a person in easily ascertainable history. (Though of course he was, and is, no more "divine' or a "prophet" than my pet goldfish.)) Most children stop believing in fairy tales by age 10 -- these people apparently didn't get the memo. Well, then why have so many Expert big bangers, atheist and evolutionary "scientists" bent on debunking "The word" become believers? In their thorough investigation using Science, archeology, ancient documents back up 100% what "The Word" says. Believing Nothing came to be from Nothing without a designer ( God ) is believing in a fairy tale. Have you ever hear of the flagella motor? Look it up. Speaking about something you obviously know Nothing about is what my mommy taught me was called ignorant. Willingly ignorant must be a tough realm to live in. Hope you get a clue soon. He is waiting for you to give up fighting Him, He created you to love you. What utter nonsense! The Big Bang Theory and Evolution are scientific models of reality and are not dependent on atheism or vice-a-versa. The fact that you reject evidence based science just goes to show how dangerous religion really is. It promotes ignorants. Your assumption that most scientists that try to debunk Christianity become Christians is utterly false. You make up facts for your own comfort. Atheism says nothing about origins. It is a lack of belief. But let me tell you that the current scientific thought of the universe is that it was eternal, at least in some form. I guess that means that your god is out of a job. The flagella motor? Is that a reference to intelligent design? The flagella is a perfect example of evolution in action. Try again. @ kubush 84 Evolution is the biggest religion there is...something from nothing! PFFT! Where did the matter come from to make "anything". Something from nothing and thats not to even mention "design". The probability factor of JUST the eye to "evolve" is IMPOSSIBLE, do the math. GET a clue, things dont "evolve better" , they deteriorate. Dont you know anything about your religion? Dont you know the FIRST law of thermodynamics? God is calling you out of your professed ignorance. You will be pleasantly surprised when you give up and give your life to your maker. He made you to live with Him, He knows you are just made of dirt. Give Him a break and stop rebelling child. You have just made so many childish statements, not to offend you, sorry. As a scientist - and an atheist - I am curious about the rationalization behind accepting a 'GOD' as an explanation for the existence of the universe. Whence the 'GOD'? Why does the 'existence' of 'God' not require a source? Why is the eternal nature of 'God' without explanation acceptable? The wonders of the universe are many, which is why science is fun. The fact that we do not yet have a complete understanding is not a reason to suggest that it is time to give up and evoke 'god'. To suggest that your - or my - incomplete knowledge means that such knowledge is unattainable is the ultimate hubris. @ nedhead, Finally, a "half" decent response here. Well, I see you profess to be a scientist. May I suggest to you to find the Top scientist to study with. The Top leading scientist are Christians now a days, not to insult your intelligence. You are obviously pondering the wonders of the universe, good, most people do. If God gave you all the answers for those kinds of things, you would then be God wouldnt you...? You trusted your mommy and daddy when they said its safe to do this and that, didnt you? Well, why would God (Jesus) ask you to believe in a Lie or give you a red herring, He wouldnt. I would not start with the big questions until you learned the smaller ones first since you love science. We dont just walk into the top classes of science, do we? Start at the bottom, ask the right questions and dont write God out of your equation yet since you obviously cant deny He does not exists, right? Aaaaand No one has what you so called "evoked" anything on you. You are a scientist right, only facts please...no stretching the truth with Evoke, come on, God (and I ) expects a little bit more from a smart scientist person....not like some of these ranters and ravers here above and below. Just out of curiosity, If everything "we" make here on earth has a designer, why would anyone think there is NO design involved in our beautiful expanses in space, earth, all its life and US? No designer Hu? Just accident? You should know as a scientist, thats a mathematical impossibility...even if some funny people do "believe" our solar system and everything in it is billions and billions of years old. Kinda like they say, the grand canyon took millions of years to create. We now know that this happened very quickly, like a couple of days probably. Wouldnt all that sediment be in the gulf of Mexico...DOH! Anyway, hope that give you something to think about and dont forget, No "one" is evoking anything on you, Jesus is inviting you to be with Him....although He asks for your whole heart and thats it. While I appreciate the depth of your irrational conviction, in concert with the shallowness of your arguments, I fail to perceive even a hint of an attempt to answer my civil question. Perhaps if you were to try and craft a paragraph or two that did not include bumper sticker slogans, factual errors, and insults, a constructive dialog might ensue. My Nedhead friend, I thought I made myself clear, sorry bout that. I will say it like I did to that above person. Hi, I want to sign up for nuclear physics class but before I sign up, I want all the answers. Thats not very smart hu? I know you know the answer to that.....How can you understand the answer to something you dont understand? Like I was saying, you presume to be smarter than me which is your first mistake because I dont use fancy words to entertain ears. Dont ever do that if you really want to proceed in science and the pursuit of truth can be blinded by your presuppositions. Ive learned some of the most remarkable things from some very "dumb" folks. No insult intended. Sometimes we get into what I call the "fishbowl" effect. Get out of the fishbowl and go live in the rest of the world and learn of it, you cant learn of it in a classroom or lab only. Is that too bumper stickerish for you sir? Im usually the one who says I dont like bumper sticker phrases I never meant to be insulting, this is the problem with not being face to face in conversation. Miscommunication is rampant because we dont see facial expressions nor do we hear tone of voice....sorry if I seemed insulting. God has revealed Himself to the poor, sick and stupid and thumbed his nose and the "know it alls". All knowledge must exalt God who "gave" it to us. OK, I didn't want to get to this point but here we go. First off, as I approach retirement age (although I have no plans to retire), I have had a very successful career in science (and business). The very essence of science is seeking to understand the answers (and new questions) to that which we don't know already. And finally, you still have not attempted to answer the very clear and simple question which I posed earlier; most likely because you have no answer. You speak (write) words that resemble sentences, but they have no content, no substance (not to mention no comprehension of grammar or spelling). I end this thread with you now, because I get no satisfaction from engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. @ nedhead, Oh my friend, I expected much more from you than giving your resume and insulting me...since you are so smart. The Lord expects a lot more from you also since He gave you this intelligence. He will require an account form you. What did you do with what I gave you...rebel against Me? Here, I will try to say it again differently and this will be the last from me. You are an expert in Chinese characters. (your resume) You go up to the Egyptian hieroglyphics teacher and try to joust with him on his understanding of what he knows. You say, ok, I dont want to join your class, also you must give me all the answers to the questions I have for you in your field of expertise. This is what you are doing. I expected much more from you as a seasoned scientist and educated person. Seek Him, pray to Him, call out to Him and you wont be disappointed. This life is so full of disappointments. He wont disappoint you, You have everything to gain and Nothing that matters to lose...... @HIS child-2382068 Don't presume that you can educate people, especially on the subject of science when you proclaim such utter ignorance by asking, "how did something come from nothing?" when it comes to evolution. Any first year biology student can tell you why this is such a silly question but I'll let you try to figure that out on your own. You fail to see that something that looks designed isn't necessarily so. You seem to be throwing out all the most common Creationist canards like candy to kids. ALL have been easily debunked by logic and evidence. The earth is not thousands of years old. It is around 4.55 billion years old. The Grand Canyon was carved out over millions of years and that is backed by real evidence and not just a collection of 2000 year old writings from some ignorant old superstitious men. You need to go get yourself a real education outside of your bible and creationist videos on youtube. It's not the statue, it's the Man. And if you dont believe in the Man, it's His ideas. And if you dont believe in His ideas then there are one of two possibilities... 1. you have never read them or 2. you are too stupid to understand them there is a third possibility... 3. you are to selfish to accept them. Jesus is not a fairy tale, or an imaginary figure. What is a fairy tale is the belief that you can continue in your self absorbed lives and find any peace and happiness. At least the Poles have a clue. Well worded Hal, its kinda like what I said.... Oh? The man that invented an eternal torture chamber should be revered? The guy who taught how to properly beat your slave? Sorry, I don't accept your supposed messiah and his message. Your cult is dangerous and a waste of resources. @kubush84 Dont even get started on trying to go into MY area (the bible) please. You are embarrassing yourself already. Your questioning God, for one....Two, you just made a statement about slaves and morphed into something that has nothing to do with fact. See what your Darwin god evolved you into...A fairytale artist just writing make believe :) Your god Darwin even admitted it in his later writings that his theory was not possible but it was better that believing in God. Why dont you go look up and find that paper....I did :) Did you know he called the human cell, just plasma like glue that holds us together that has no real function....PFT! Primordial ooze, fairytale :) No facts to back up your hocus-pocus. You know you are wrong thats why you TRY and attack the bible to your own demise. You are the dangerous cult imposing your laws on us and silence us. Stick to facts. Your heart will be hardened if you keep this up, and you wont be able to know Him. I suggest you stop while you still have the chance. These are not my opinions, these are biblical facts well documented by eye witness accounts....I hope you believe in eye witness accounts, our judicial system does. Who is the cult follower? God will happily forgive you of anything you have done and will heal you of the wrongs done TO you that made you this Hard-hearted. Ask Jesus to make Himself known to you and ask him to forgive you and tell him you want to give up and surrender your whole life to Him :) He loves YOU :) First off, yes, I have a brain, hence I can question ANYTHING, even your made-up god. Second, I did not morph anything. I took it right out of your bible. You couldn't even defend it and rightfully so because it is indefensible. I can bet that I know more about your religion and your bible than you do. "Your god Darwin even admitted it in his later writings that his theory was not possible but it was better that believing in God." Doesn't your god say "Thou shalt not bear false witness"? Because that is exactly what you did here. Darwin NEVER said anything of the sort. Finding made up quotes from Creationist websites is not considered real research. Darwin knew that we had heritable traits but did not know about genetics. Darwin set the foundation of Evolutionary Theory but we have learned a lot since and it is a lot more accurate and refined than it was 150 years ago. It is called the progress of science. How the hell am I imposing my laws and silencing you?!?!?!?!? "No facts to back up your hocus-pocus." LOL. Oh the irony, it hurts! Let's see what you have to believe in be a YEC: a magical father figure in the sky created everything from nothing and then magically transformed dirt into the first man, and then transformed a rib into a woman (because she was created to serve Adam, of course), then a talking snake convinced the woman to eat from a magical tree which then caused all of their descendent's to be cursed (by hocus-pocus) and the only way to be saved from an eternal torture chamber is to believe and love some guy that lived in the middle east 2k years ago that walked on water, magically made water into wine, and raised from the dead. ROTFL!!! And you call incremental changes in species over a vast amount of time to be "hocus-pocus"?!? Eye-witness accounts are not sufficient even in the courtroom. The credibility of the eye witness must be established. Also, the fact that the eye witness needs to have their story in line with all the other evidence, otherwise the testimony is called into question. The bible's accounts are hear-say to say the least. And if you truly believe in eye-witness testimony then why don't you accept the testimony of the Prophet Mohammed? "Religion easily has the best bull@!$%#." ~George Carlin RIP The subject of Jesus has never and will NEVER "go away". Why are you all so offended by Jesus? Why is everyone talking about Jesus? Why does the core of every subject now a days come down to Jesus? He has put it in our hearts, thats why...says the bible. Check it out, dont believe me :) "Why is everyone talking about Jesus?" Maybe, just maybe it's because the article is about a giant jesus statue? [sarcasm] Would you like to see another fine example of your European Union taxes [straight from your pocket] hard at work? Follow this link to see a statue of Jan Perner, the founder of Czech railroads, newly installed in Ceska Trebova: (If Perner looked anything like his statue, he was probably used for the first rails . . . ) I think its totally awesome - Im not bothered either way that its supposed to be Jesus though. I would love to see the one in Rio. Now if they built two of them either side of a river like they did in the lord of the rings I would definitely go see them, that would be awesome! What an ugly monstrosity That sends a clear message Polish people believe in myths from the dusty old book called the bible They think it will put them on the map !! Yes for stupidity Batman, Spider man, Superman, Alice in Wonderland, Goldie locks. Was there a list to choose from. I'm Polish and I'm an atheist. Great !! Have you read "The greatest show on Earth" By Richard Darkins Best seller in some parts of the world where knowledge is permitted @ Kubush Again ! You CANT be an atheist. No such thing, sorry. Nothing tops the religion of self-righteous arrogance practicing it's trade quite like ... @ Barbara Y You seem like a nice, logical person who can tell the future like the bible can...I think I will believe in what you believe now ......NOT! :) "Again ! You CANT be an atheist. No such thing, sorry" *facepalm* What a stupid thing to say. Yes, atheism and atheists exist! None of those people in Poland were put on this earth to live up to my expectations anymore than you were. So - With that in mind... Why can't everyone simply learn to accept each others differences without all the damn senseless bickering about a community that chose to erect a statue of Jesus Christ in their own town? It's not exactly like they trying to force their will upon you. If you don't like it... Don't go there to look at it! How much simpler can that be!? Sorry! You think a statue that is 167ft tall is not forcing their beleif on every person in the village. What say 12% of the village don't beleive in the jesus and every morning its in their face, did they have a say, or they just kept silence as that was safer. Religion always wants to force their beleif that is why they start with the children, scare the hell out of them, muddle their thinking. You live your life your way, I'll live mine..... No one forces anything on me that I do not allow. Period Good to hear !! I don't consider it that big of a deal but honestly that money could have been spent much better, like for instance the roads....have you ever been to Poland? No I haven't I have travelled in other parts of Europe Would like to do some more I want to go to Russia/ Moscow and travel in the metro @ kubush84 You keep saying your "opinion" about things you know nothing about dear. If you were in charge of Rio de Janeiro...What!? You are going to presume to tell someone whos job it is to run that place and those people "how" they should do THEIR job!? In a culture and a place you know NOTHING about...please. You gotta be kidding me?! Have you ever lived anywhere outside the states? Monday morning quarterback, go over there and do something about it, go volunteer over there and get involved. "If you were in charge of Rio...are going to presume to tell someone whos job it is to run that place" I don't get it. Is that a trick question? If I am in charge, then presumably I run that place. lol. "ave you ever lived anywhere outside the states?" Apparently you didn't even read the comment that you replied to. I was born in Poland, I immigrated to the U.S. And I have lived abroad in places like Ecuador which also has a big statue of Jesus on a mountain side. If it is private money and on private land then I don't really care too much but I still hold that the money could have been better spent on say...feeding the poor? WWJD? LOL. You might want to proof read your commentary before posting. they vs their and damed vs damn It is a sad epithet that Poles who were the subjects of a murderous dictatorial communal failure now enjoy more rights expressing their Religious Freedoms than the nation founded explicitly on that right. I'm seeing such bitterness in these comments. Praying that my God will put someone in your lives that will show you what love really is. The statue is incredible. Thank you to the people who designed and built it. It's not an idol, it's a way of honoring the one true God. May God continue to bless you. Thank you Poppy :) well said. I must be getting tired, Im outa here......I hope. God bless your civility and Love. And your would be definition of what love truly is, is your god? The guy who coerces people to love and worship him for his own vanity otherwise he will torture them for eternity? The guy who allows children to get raped and other such horrific evils? That is NOT love! John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Think about it: Would you allow your son to die to save anyone else? God is a perfect example of love and sacrifice. Sin causes "children to be raped and other such horrific evils". I questioned this myself for a long time, but have come to truly believe that we must understand what life is like in the depths of valleys to realize just how wonderful it will be on the mountaintop. I am not coerced to love and worship God by any means. I am truly in awe of Him, and worship him because I see how worthy He is of my praise. God does not torture people, people torture people. As far as being tortured for eternity, I pray you find the love that God offers each person before you have to experience what hell really is - eternity apart from God. There are 3 types of believers in this world. There are unbelievers, believers, and make believers. Speaking to the unbelievers: Once you truly believe, not make believe but actually "believe" you can feel something that is not of this world and it is not just in your mind it will come as a physical feeling and you will know something touched you. This is such a wonderful touch and it is "physical". At least a person that is a none believer is being honest. Our churches are full of make believers, people who are there to be a part of society, a club, for entertainment or who are just lonely. But if any of us that truly seek the truth will find what I type about. @ Bill Bowen Amen brother !! Been to church /raised a xian / now a non theist I think I can just be a nice person and help others in my day to day life without having any kind of belief. I understand that some of us raised in church get disappointed because we don't see any proof and the Bible looses it authenticity because of what we are taught in society. With me I went along and was a make believer and then I heard something I had never heard and it shocked me and then I thought if this is correct then maybe there really is a God. I then started reading and seeking what I had heard, not letting anything stand in my way. And in spite of myself thinking all of my negative thoughts I came to know what I speak. Going over to Mcdonalds now be back in an hour. i was born in poland city name czestochowa non for black madonna shrine another catolic bs, living in the usa now for many years............and i am ambarased by this extrawagant nonsence of the catolic churche there and enerywere what i consider the bigest organize cult ...with " former nazzi ? on the top", what they want to pruwe they in power, how much money they have stolen from aneducated peaple who they brain wash or the holly water is radioactive there lol..........before was comunizm now you must be catolic or at list act like one to by any body, i do not see any diference ! i am sorry for polish peaple and poland...........and i am glad to be in usa, not perfect like any country on the earth but ok. The Bible says we are tried at every moment we watch all the corruption and we want to fight back but if we do Satan has another one to take that ones place. Your right about the U.S. It is the most blessed country in the world. But I hope we will do what God ask when he says If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. "It is the most blessed country in the world." Prove it. Doesn't this seem odd? That when people ask about suffering, Christians say god gave us free will, therefor he wont interfere with our suffering but then they will say that god produced this miracle or that, or that he blessed this or that. So apparently god CAN interfere without infringing on our free will but couldn't care less about our suffering. Oh and to imply that a supreme cosmic deity cares about our artificial borders is belittling to your notion of god.

French clubs set to stay in the HEC Related links Also see French clubs will not quit Europe's leading cup competitions to play in an alternative tournament just with English clubs. The vice-president of the French National Rugby League (LNR) Patrick Wolff said his organisation wanted to continue playing the Heineken Heineken Cup's current format is weighted in favour of the Celtic nations as Leinster and Munster have won five of the last seven editions between them. Leinster have won three of the last four Heineken Cups and their rivals in England and France claim that is partly a result of a qualification system that allows them to rest their players during told AFP. . crunchfit says... @ APV1 No worries man, one of the nicer / more genuine posters here even if we have some very different point of views. Posted 19:08 26th September 2012 Toulousain says... funny, i'm still waiting for an answer from you crunchfit. you may not be an anglophobe, but you seem to be happy to ignore we french. and then complain on another page that APV is ignoring you. (do you have a man crush?) what's the word i'm looking for? double standards or hypocrite. can't decide. you choose. btw, i'm afraid the anglo-french arguments are very simple, and are being made by the powers that be, i.e. not any of us. i think it is time to just agree to disagree and see how the cookie crumbles. it's out of our hands. being polite is not. let's focus on that instead. Posted 18:08 26th September 2012 APV1 says... @ crunchfit - please accept my genuine apology for non-response. I'm so sick and tired of the nonsensical anti-English rubbish, that I'm probably missing bits. Let me have them again and I'll do my best. The comments I picked out were from a variety of people, although some more than others. They were generalist comments, which is why I selected them, although they were all related to the HC debate. Posted 17:37 26th September 2012 crunchfit says... @ APV1 My questions are direct and simple. Surely, if your argument is actually valid it would have been easier to answer the questions then spend time picking out parts of comments. Not to mention, a bunch of those comments are from one poster and many are about those involved in the decision making, not the English people. Anyway, I'm not an anglophobe and you posted some of that comment before to get me to respond. Now I have and you won't answer my questions. It seems to me like you don't have a good answer, to be honest. Maybe you do though and in that case, maybe you could provide an answer. Posted 15:54 26th September 2012 APV1 says... @ crunchfit - here's why I can't be bothered anymore. The Anglophobes have got their wish - another opportunity to have a go and not discuss rugby. The labelling of a whole nation and / or all of its supporters is shameful: typically English and arrogant Arrogant English as usual! WOW the Enger-lish are looking pretty stupid now aren't they??? hahahaha BOOM The greedy English amateurs the utter arrogance and insubordination of your moronic bartering English rugby is a laughing stock not only due to your endless stupidity You're greedy and inherently dishonest the greedy English the English made fools of themselves AGAIN your greasy tills and greed-inspired calculations We all know about you English folks... what's yours is yours and what belongs to someone else is yours also. just because they want more tv money for there own coffers just pathetic whinging throwing their toys out of the pram Typical bitter Anglo/French behaviour this boils down to financial greed Whinge whinge moan moan - typical English Pathetic The English and French leagues are full of mercenaries playing for big fat greedy pay cheques if ever there was proof of English whinging, this is surely it. whing, whinge, and more bloody whinge... shameful bullying the Arrogance of the these people knows no bounds its really pathetic trying to get there grubby little hands on every penny they can Unbelievable arrogance leaving them drown in the greed they so crave the destroyers of a great game in Europe I say sod the arrogant English it is just arrogance nothing more than pure greed greedy English Your arrogance is astounding the English money-grubbing nation of shop-keepers 800 years of crimes against humanity whining victimisation Just like the English The English are now toxic. endless greed and disregard for the law the centuries of crimes in your wake Posted 13:23 26th September 2012 Toulousain says... @crunchfit. you're kidding right? you try to have a go at APV1 for not responding when the open questions are at your door? we have answered your questions. there is no lack of logic in our position. i really can't spell it out in any more basic terms. i guess APV1 has just thrown in the towel. what is that english expression? "there's none blinder than those who won't see" hmmm. Posted 22:28 24th September 2012 crunchfit says... @APV1 Any response to my questions? If you don't want to answer, no problem. I just thought that you would seeing as this is the second time you made that point to me (i've just seen that old post in the Loose Pass story that you mentioned) so I assume you were interested enough in my response to read it. I'm just trying to see the logic behind English fans', such as yourself's, issues with the Pro12. They don't seem logical to me and when I point out flaws in your arguments in response to your comments, which just seem a little too obvious, I have yet to get a response or get answers to questions I ask. If your arguments are so convincing, why is there such a lack of response to the questions or pointing out of what seem to be obvious flaws in the logic of your arguments? Posted 17:55 24th September 2012 rugby_rockstar says... Hahahah! AWESOME!!!!! Northern Hemisphere rugby is the winner, almost! There's a risk that Italy will get sold down the river by a compromise that allows say 8 pro 12 teams to qualify. which is plain selfish but it will ensure celtic stars get the rest all rugby players need to stay fit and in form. Personally, I think the PRO12 are in a great position. They have a strong argument for resting players and so should stick to their guns and the onus should be on england and france to pull themselves up to the benchmark set by the likes of Leinster, Ulster and Munster. We should be improving the rugby, thats the primary goal that every rugby fans wants. England and France focus on the business side to the detriment of the rugby so the balance is blatently wrong. This whole eurocup PRL farce has been a public relations disarster for the english clubs. I'm English and I've just got utter contempt for them. Heads should roll. They want to act like businessmen then resign and take the consequenses of their incompetence like businessmen. How is this different to the incompetance shown by the RFU last year? Its not. PRL have messed up big time and their reputation is in tatters. Posted 12:20 21st September 2012 Toulousain says... @crunchfit - don't worry if you don't feel you want to reply. i am learning your non-responsive style from other pages, especially when you don't want to accept things!! Posted 10:42 21st September 2012 7ton says... OK we have the Edinburgh and Zebre cases but isn't it a bit petty to begrudge these 2 teams as we should want to see rugby expand in Scotland and Italy Posted 10:37 21st September 2012 Toulousain says... @crunchfit: You say "...resting players for a single game where they know they can't make the play-offs, for a much bigger game, in a bigger tournament means that teams in the Pro12 in general, not specifically Edinburgh, don't try?...." I think everyone can agree that simply because Edinburgh rested players, it doesn't follow that all Pro12 sides rest players, and/or don't care. Maybe some do. But not all. Fair point. What I find interesting is that you define the HCup as "a much bigger game, in a bigger tournament". That's the point. For most French teams, the HCup is not the "bigger game". T14 is the bigger game. We rest players for HCup games. We don't care much about losing to Celtic sides. It's not a big deal to us. Because we know we could beat them, if it was a level playing field. But it's not. So we don't try. Take a look at Biarritz last season if you need any example of how motivation and prioritisation affects the outcome of games. They knew from about mid-February they were doomed in T14. So they "focussed" on the Amlin. And they won the damn thing, beating sides like Toulon along the way!! Imagine if all French sides could "focus" on the HCup. It would at least make us worth beating. Posted 10:29 21st September 2012 porridge_time says... So what if Edinburgh rested players and focused on the HC last season. The professional game in Scotland consists of two teams and it needs entry into a European competition in order to grow. Both Edinburgh and Glasgow are gradually improving and who knows where they will be this season, but if the rich English clubs are appeased here then the professional game in Scotland and Italy will be sunk. This is about money and about English Clubs not winning the European Cup all the other stuff is subderfuge. Posted 02:16 21st September 2012 crunchfit says... @APV1 There's a difference between resting players a week prior to the Toulouse match, and completely abandoning the Pro12 (or something to that effect), as has been suggested recently. Besides, people point to Edinburgh as an example and suggest all teams abandon the league. So, people on your side of the argument think that resting players for a single game where they know they can't make the play-offs, for a much bigger game, in a bigger tournament means that teams in the Pro12 in general, not specifically Edinburgh, don't try? And you think that that demeans and devalues the competition? That doesn't really make sense to me. Sorry. If you're in two competitions, your fate is sealed in one, and you have a chance to win in the other, clearly you prioritise the latter. And prioritise is a bit of an exaggeration. It was really just resting players for a single game, not prioritising. Posted 23:37 20th September 2012 Sincero says... Cheers, porridge! APV, I'd actually agree with all of that. I sent in a query at the end of the season to a rugby program that airs in Ireland precisely on that topic. What Edinburgh did wasn't respectable, but they exploited the system. It's certainly part of the reason why we're having this debate now. (However I do see a fair bit of jealousy at the successes of the provinces as being the larger part of this being brought up) My suggested solution was to keep the 10 berths (to which I feel we're entitled as a European league representing 4 Unions, rather than a domestic league representing one- the two simply do not equate), but do away with automatic qualification for the Scots and Italians. All of the lower teams in the league are well capable of qualifying on merit, perhaps with the exception of Zebre, who have disappointed so far. It'd be fairer on 1/2-funded Connacht, and to also to degree on the fully-funded Dragons. Treviso deserve their European Cup place- they're no push over, and have taken a few scalps. Even Aironi managed that. But if you pluck Zebre now in the pool stages it throws the whole Cup out of whack. Far better to have a superior team there on merit, and allow Zebre time to grow in the Challenge. Plus the lower end of the league becomes far more competitive. And there would be no more taking the peas like Edinburgh did last year. Posted 16:18 20th September 2012 APV1 says... @ Sincero - as I posted on the Loose Pass thread and on other HC threads, Edinburgh, imo, had little respect for the Pro12 and decided to rest players: That's why people are suggesting that some teams don't try. Because they prioritise. I understand why, I just don't like it and think it demeans and devalues the competition. And, as a Bath fan, I too was disppointed with the result and (especially) the performance at the Rec (just see my comments). We have the talent, especially in the back 3, to play some fantastic rugby. Bendy's try proved that. But we're lacking a play-maker at 10 and Barkley's filling in. He's an ok 10, but not a Beaver (with his experience and rugby-vision) or a Heathcote (with his youthful flair and exuberance). @ 7ton - as you say, teams will always miss out unless every team plays every other team. But that's where the Amlin comes in. I think we're trying to get to a sensible place and I hope that the Unions, ERC, PRL, etc can get there too. My personal two bug-bears are automatic qualification for teams, regardless of their standard (e.g. Zebre) and teams which are almost encouraged to "do an Edinburgh". And, as I see it, that's what most French and English fans object to as well. A pan-Eropean salary cap wouldn't go amiss either, but I think that's a bit of a pipe dream, along with foreign player restrictions being unified. Posted 10:07 20th September 2012 porridge_time says... You know us English take these things very seriously. We all know about you English folks... what's yours is yours and what belongs to someone else is yours also. Sincero has hit the nail firmly on the head in his summary. Posted 07:55 20th September 2012 porridge_time says... Anybody else see a pattern emerging? Yes! Posted 05:44 20th September 2012 7ton says... APV1 Giving consideration to your suggestion that the top 6 teams from each league go into the HC it may well be that the 7th finisher in the Rabo could be on many occasions better than the 6th finishers in the AP or T14. Now that goes completely against your your view that the HC should be for the best teams in Europe only regardless whether all 6n countries are included or not. Who can ever say that all the top finishers in the AP or T14 are going to be better than the 7th or even 8th finisher of the Rabo? Even as the format is now an Irish or Welsh team missing out may claim they are better than the 6th placed AP/T14 team. The only way we could have it by your principle is if every team in Europe were to all play each other home and away. For obvious time and other factors this would not be possible unless we just have one big European league and forget the rest. In regards to making the Rabo more competitive one possibility may be to reduce the amount of Rabo teams that qualify from 10 to 8 or even 7 then have 1 team each from Italy and Scotland and 2 or even just 1 each from Ireland and Wales that have a guaranteed place and then let the rest fight it out. To make up the full HC numbers bring in more from the Amlin and/or include the runner up from the previous years HC. Another idea could be to reduce the amount of Auto qualifiers from the AP/T14 as well and have some sort of play off between the "just losers" of all 3 leagues but time may be a factor. There are many possibilities and I just hope that the powers that be can get there heads together and have a reasoned debate which does take into consideration the greater good of rugby Posted 21:37 19th September 2012 Sincero says... And what the bugger makes you think teams are hardly trying in the Pro 12? That's really very presumptuous of you, and also very much not the case. I watched Ulster host Munster at Ravenhill last weekend, and also watched Saints visit the Rec. I had a little combination bet on, you see? Now, without many of the internationals back, the pace, execution, the power and the passion of the game that was on show in Belfast would completely eclipse anything you have on show in England. Utter dross at the Rec. And then Leicester - Sarries the other day? The big teams? This is the mad thing- instead of thinking about why you can't produce rugby of any decent standard you immediately try to hamstring duplicitously your neighbours in an attempt to drag the game back to your level. It's really quite abhorrent. We've got our own problems with the game in Italy, Scotland and Wales, and your solution is to make the first two extinct and the last endangered? Instead of trying to murder the sport until nobody else is left, as per your tradition, why not give rugby up altogether and concentrate on something you love doing that nobody else can be bothered with? Enter a 'boring conversations about weather international championship', or a 'treating animals as if the are people cup'... or a 'general knowledge quiz on the Duchess of Cambridge's knickers'... something you're guaranteed to win as a nation. And leave the rugby alone, folks. Better for everyone. Posted 17:47 19th September 2012 Sincero says... TVaddict says... 'Leinster finishing in the top six is irrelevant when the teams they're playing against are hardly trying. That is one of the many points you seem unable to grasp. You are as diplomatic and intelligent as the people running the premiership!' I'm not trying to be diplomatic, mate. And clearly neither are you lot. What led you to call me unintelligent. A little ad hominem, no? I'm not trying to insult anyone, pal. I'm fairly confident in my level of intelligence too, so not offended, just puzzled. I'm not slagging you off. I specifically said I like your fans. It's just this kind of carry-on makes you... less popular, shall we say? '@ Sincero - therein lies the problem. When we were invited back in and offered a cup of tea, it was rubbish. It wasn't brewed correctly. The milk went in the cup first (an absolute No! No!). There was no lemon as an alternative. The list goes on.' Honestly wouldn't be surprised if it contained more saliva than tea after all that, though. So you're saying you think you should have seen a far higher % of the Sky money, or are you just extending the analogy? I must say, in the past you used to kick off after any success, but this time that's not the case. Your national team is trousers, your clubs can't hold their own at all, and your brand of rugby could be sold in D.I.Y. shops as a paint drying aid. Your position is laughably weak. So what now? A 'PREMIER EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIP OF THE WORLD AND UNIVERSE CUP' with teams just from England? I'll pay you 20 quid in advance now not to bother boring me with the details of who wins it. Posted 17:36 19th September 2012

North Player Name College Number Position Dominique Davis East Carolina/Boston College 4 QB Made his highly-anticipated East Carolina debut last fall and didn't disappoint, immediately earning a reputation as one of the nation's top quarterbacks from a statistical, productivity and impact standpoint ... A 2011 Consensus Draft Services (CDSdraft.com) Preseason All-America selection after a record-setting first year, which officially began only 35 days prior to the season opener ... Named to the 2011 Maxwell Award and Davey O'Brien Award Watch Lists ... Originally inked with the Pirates as a mid-year signee in December, 2009 (from Fort Scott Community College) ... Remained committed to ECU after meeting head coach Ruffin McNeill for the first time immediately after his hire, but missed the start of the academic semester (which prevented participation in spring drills) ... Loyalty to the Pirate program was evidenced by self-funded move to Greenville and attendance at all 15 spring workouts to absorb as much knowledge as possible about new offensive scheme ... Competition in Atlantic Coast Conference wars while at Boston College brought a much-needed battle-tested, big-game mindset to a program which had lost a six-year signal-caller the previous season ... Vision, mobility, quickness, passing touch, poise, mental preparation and competitive instincts have all been lauded by coaching staff, but work ethic and leadership skills are most respected by teammates who voted him to serve as team captain on 10 of 13 occasions last season ... Enjoyed a productive spring, fine-tuning his responsibilities in the spread scheme ... Completed 13-of-18 passes for 131 yards and two touchdowns during the first scrimmage April 2 ... Found Danny Webster (five yards) and Justin Jones (13) with scoring tosses in the opener, before hooking up with Dayon Arrington on a 17-yarder in the second contest on the way to a 10-of-16, 120-yard effort April 9 ... Finished drills with limited action in the Purple-Gold Game April 16, completing all four attempts for 29 yards and a touchdown - a three-yard throw to Joe Womack to open the scoring ... A 2011 Preseason All- Conference selection (fourth-team) by Phil Steele Magazine ... Labeled as the "6th-best NFL talent" in C-USA and "Coolest In The Clutch" by Lindy's Magazine. Alex Tanney Monmouth (IL) 17 QB Athletic Awards: 2-Time Conference Offensive Player of the Year; 2009 Melberger Award Winner; All-American; All-Conference Favorite Sports Memory: Coming back to beat Ripon in 2008 Matt Blanchard Wisconsin-Whitewater 15 QB Derrick Coleman UCLA 33 RB UCLA -Derrick put up steadily improving numbers throughout his career ... Has done a fine job as a tailback and in one-back situations ... Possesses a good combination of size, strength and speed ... Also a standout on special teams. 2011 -. Lampford Mark Nevada 29 RB/RT. Michael Smith Utah State 20 RB •. Darryl Whiting Fordham 25 FB/RB Moved into the starting lineup at running back last year and finished the year as the team's leading rusher... second in the Patriot League in rushing average last fall... slated to be the starting running back again in 2011... gained 83 yards on 17 carries in the 2011 Spring Game... came into his own in 2009, starting two games and leading the Rams in rushing... ranked fifth in the Patriot League in rushing... played himself into the running back rotation with a solid 2009 spring season... gives the Rams athleticism in the offensive backfield... saw limited varsity action in 2008. 2010: Appeared in ten games as a junior for the Rams, starting four at running back... led the team with 771 rushing yards on 169 carries (4.6 yards/rush) with a team-best eight touchdowns... ranked second in the Patriot League in rushing yards per game (77.1) and 43rd in the NCAA FCS... eighth in the Patriot League in total offense... ranked third in the Patriot League in scoring (touchdowns) at 4.8 points/game and sixth overall in scoring... seventh in the league in all-purpose yards (79.4/game)... also caught six passes for 23 yards... set career highs with 38 carries for 251 yards and two touchdowns (both two yards) in the win over Georgetown... the 251 yards was the third most in a game all-time for the Rams... also had two catches for 12 yards against the Hoyas... followed the Georgetown game by gaining 171 yards on 38 carries with two scores (one and 30 yards) in the win at Bucknell... gained 108 yards on 29 rushes with one touchdown (seven yards) in the Lafayette victory... opened season with 67 yards on 15 carries at Bryant... picked up 56 yards on 14 attempts in the win over Rhode Island... closed out the season with 17 rushes for 53 yards and one touchdown (14 yards) versus Colgate... also had one reception for ten yards in the Colgate contest. 2009: Appeared in all eleven games for the Rams as a sophomore, starting two... led the Rams with 132 carries for 681 yards (5.2 yards/carry) and five touchdowns... ranked fifth in the Patriot League in rushing (61.9 yards/game)... also caught six passes for 52 yards (8.7 yards/catch)... had two 100-yard rushing games... closed out season with a 25-carry, 172-yard, one touchdown game (two yards) in the win at Georgetown... rushed for 101 yards on 14 carries with a 57-yard scoring run in the victory over Old Dominion... recorded 72 rushing yards on 18 attempts in the Bucknell game and 70 yards on 18 rushes against Lehigh... carried eight times for 56 yards and one score (6 yards) in the Bryant win... recorded nine rushes for 48 yards and one reception for seven yards against Holy Cross... rushed nine times for 41 yards and added a reception for 29 yards versus Lehigh... gained 36 yards on ten carries with one touchdown (5 yards) at Colgate. 2008: Appeared in two games as a freshman... rushed four times for eleven yards... gained 13 yards on three carries at Holy Cross... also appeared with the junior varsity, rushing for a touchdown and catching a 25-yard pass to set up another score in a win over Columbia... finished with 23 rushing yards and two receptions in the game. Before Fordham: A graduate of Holy Cross High School in Flushing, New York, where he played football and basketball... selected to play in the Catholic High School Football League (CHSFL) Senior Bowl Game in 2007... received CHSFL All-League Offense Award as a senior... rushed for 1,018 yards and 13 touchdowns in 2007... gained 241 yards rushing on 14 carries with two touchdowns in a win over Kellenberg... selected to appear in the Outback Steakhouse Bowl... named 2007 All-Queens Offense by the Queens Ledger... team MVP... served as a team captain for the freshman squad in 2004 and was named team MVP... nominated for Who's Who Among American High School Students in 2004-05. Personal: Born March 18, 1990... son of Deirdre Wallace... has one brother (Joshua)... a Business Administration major. Joe Martinek Rutgers 14 FB/RB College: After playing through injury in 2010, "Jersey Joe" will be making a move to fullback eerily similar to the one made by Rutgers Legend Brian Leonard his senior season. Truely a team team player. High School: Matinek is one of the more decorated high school players to ever come from the state of New Jersey. He was the 2006 Gatorade New Jersey State Player of the Year and finished his career as the all-time leader in New Jersey state history with 7,589 rushing yards and 80 touchdowns. Derek Moye Penn State 6 WR/RT Derek Moye already has established himself as one of the elite wideouts in Penn State's glorious gridiron history, but the former Rochester High School all-state star and state champion sprinter is poised for an even bigger season in the fall. A probable All-America candidate, Moye is coming off a superb junior season that saw him lead the Nittany Lions with 53 receptions for 885 yards and eight touchdowns. A Phil Steele's College Football Preview preseason first-team All-Big Ten selection, he hauled in a touchdown in seven of the last eight games, including the final five contests. Moye brings outstanding size, skills and speed to the offense. The crisp route runner and prolific leaper is a big-play threat on every snap. He was second in the Big Ten with a 16.7 yards per catch average, was fifth in the conference in receiving yardage (68.1 ypg) and tied for ninth in receptions last year. Moye also moved among the Penn State career leaders with 104 receptions (11th), 1,741 receiving yards (11th) and 15 touchdown receptions (5th tie). He needs 22 receptions and 266 yards to move into the Top 5 on both lists. A 2010 honorable-mention All-Big Ten selection, Moye's hard work in the off-season has him prepared for a huge senior season. He already has established himself as a player with the talent and toughness to be a game-changer. Moye opened the calendar year with a game-high five catches for 79 yards and a touchdown against Florida in the Outback Bowl on New Year's Day. A starter in every game for the past two seasons, Moye uses his size and speed to present matchup problems for opposing secondaries. A four-sport standout at Rochester HS, Moye won the 200 (:22.15) and 400-meter (:48.04) Class AA state titles at the 2007 Pennsylvania state track and field championships. A cousin, Rocky Washington, played for the Nittany Lions during the 2000s. Moye is on schedule to graduate in December. 2010. Philip Payne UNLV 12 WR UNLV: The scoring machine from Las Vegas returns with an opportunity to break the UNLV record for receiving touchdowns as a senior ... The 2011 preseason First Team All-MW selection by Phil Steele's is listed No. 1 at one WR spot heading into fall ... Also garnered preseason first team honors from Lindy's, Athlon and Blue Ribbon ... Ranked the preseason No. 29 WR in the nation by Phil Steele's ... After 32 games played, has compiled 19 receiving touchdowns and needs just one more to move into the top three at the school and just five more would tie him with all-time record-holder Henry Bailey (24 from 1991-94) ... Heads into his final season with 127 receptions (12th all-time at UNLV) for 1,786 yards (12th) ... Possesses outstanding leaping ability and tremendous hands with a knack for hauling in tough catches, especially in the end zone ... Became one of the top freshman receivers in the nation in 2008 after being a PrepStar West Coast All-Region honoree that was ranked the No. 70 WR prospect in the nation by ESPN Insider out of high school ... Earned Academic All-MW honors in 2008. 2010: Led team in receiving yards with a career-high 689 ... Ranked third in the MW and 73rd in the nation with 62.6 yards per game ... Ranked seventh in the league with 3.64 catches per game ... Tied Michael Johnson for team lead in TD catches with five ... Played in 11 of 13 games, missing back-to-back trips to West Virginia and CSU because of a team suspension ... Posted his fourth career 100-yard game with a career-best 180 yards on seven catches vs.UNR ... His TDs came against Wisconsin, Idaho, Wyoming, AFA and Hawaii ... Named Preseason First Team All-MW by Phil Steele's and second team by Lindy's and Athlon ... Also ranked the No. 29 WR in the nation by Phil Steele's. 2009: Played in all 12 games and started nine ... Changed his jersey number from to 18 No. 4 before season ... Listed as having the MW's best hands by Sporting News ... Named Second Team All-MW by Phil Steele's after finishing second on the team behind only Ryan Wolfe with 58 receptions for 661 yards ... Led the team and ranked third in the MW with seven receiving touchdowns ... Ranked 62nd in the nation with 4.83 RPG and fifth in the league with 55.1 YPG ... Had two 100-yard efforts as a sophomore, hauling in 10 passes for 112 yards at UNR and five for 107 in a win over San Diego State ... Caught a 15-yard TD pass from Omar Clayton to give UNLV a 34-33 victory over Hawaii as part of an eight-catch, 94-yard night in Game Three ... Finished with 58 yards on seven receptions, including a score, vs. Utah ... His 17-yard scoring reception, also thrown by Clayton, helped the Rebels post a 28-24 season-ending win over the Aztecs. 2008: Named the No. 10 Newcomer of the Year in the MW by Athlon preview magazine and more than lived up to the hype, tying Sam "Disco Kid" Greene's 28-year-old school record for consecutive games catching a touchdown pass in his first five games as a collegian ... Despite missing a quarter of the season because of injury, his TD total through nine games was just one short of the school and MW freshman records of eight ... Led the nation in TD receptions among freshmen before suffering his first injury vs. BYU ... Played in nine games overall, starting five ... Finished third on the team with 436 yards on 29 grabs ... Served notice of his scoring ability in the season-opener when he went up high to bring down his first career TD vs. USU from seven yards out ... Finished with 53 yards on four catches in his debut ... Hauled in another fade pattern TD at Utah the following week to go with a season-long 45-yard catch and run vs. the future MW champs ... Made national news in Game Three at Arizona State on Sept. 13 when he caught the game-tying TD pass from Omar Clayton one handed above his head while falling backwards to propel the Rebels into overtime and toward a shocking upset win over the 13th-ranked Sun Devils ... The now-famous catch followed earlier heroics that included a TD catch just before halftime to get the Rebels back in the game and a fourth-down catch to keep the final drive alive in regulation ... Payne's legend grew just a week later when he came down with another fade pass to defeat Iowa State. That pass from Clayton came on UNLV's first offensive play of overtime from 25 yards out to make the final 34-31 ... Payne went up to get another TD vs. UNR the following week to give him six in his first five games ... Brought in a career-high six receptions for 124 yards and another score vs. Air Force on Oct. 18 ... Knocked out of the game vs. BYU the following week and returned for limited action before leaving vs. UNM and not playing in the final two games. HIGH SCHOOL: A 2008 graduate of Western HS ... Scored 30 touchdowns in his varsity career for the Warriors ... Grabbed 28 balls for 689 yards as a senior as his team finished 8-3 ... Also played at spot safety and held on kicks for coach Brian Murray ... Twice named first team All-Sunset Region ... Also a standout prep basketball player who lettered in track and volleyball as well. PERSONAL: Phillip Anthony Payne was born on Feb. 6, 1990, in Las Vegas ... The son of Carolina de los Reyes and the late Joel Payne ... Has a younger brother, Patrick ... Majoring in communication studies. Derek Carrier Beloit College 83 WR Michael Willie Arizona State 1 WR ASU: Two-year member of the Sun Devil football team...two-year letterman...played in 25 games, starting 21...made 72 career receptions for 897 yards and nine touchdowns...twice caught two touchdowns in a game (2010 vs. Oregon, 2011 at Utah)...big, physical receiver who presented a constant mismatch to defenders...talented downfield blocker. 2011: Played in all 13 games, starting 12...finished the season with 36 catches for 455 yards and three touchdowns...caught two touchdowns against Utah on Oct. 8, including a 14-yarder and 12-yarder, and finished the game with seven catches for 98 yards...collected five catches for 79 yards and a touchdown vs. Oregon Oct. 15...recorded four catches for 44 yards vs. USC Sept. 24...made three catches for 65 yards, including a season-long 34-yarder, at Illinois Sept. 17...caught four passes for 52 yards at Washington St. on Nov. 12. 2010: Second in catches this season...played in all 12 games...started nine including six straight beginning as the opening day starter...had eight catches for 114 yards and one touchdown vs. Northern Arizona...seemed to make the big play when ASU needed it, including an 8-yard catch on fourth-and-5 from the NAU 35 that eventually led to a touchdown...all eight of his receptions went for first downs in the game...caught five passes for 74 yards and two touchdowns against Oregon while the ducks hadn't allowed a touchdown pass in any of their first three games...had a career long 40 yard touchdown bomb to set up a touchdown early in the first quarter vs. Washington...had two catches (one for touchdown) in Territorial Cup CERRITOS COMMUNITY COLLEGE: One of the top junior college wide receivers in the state of California.....coached by Frank Mazzotta at Cerritos College. HIGH SCHOOL: A 2008 graduate...coached by Mario Morales at Woodrow Wilson High School. PERSONAL: A BIS major with a focus on Sociology and Communication Marcus Rivers Buffalo 88 WR Hoof Prints: Long, angular receiver with rare combination of size, speed and strength...tallest of the Bulls’ receivers...will likely return to the starting lineup after coming off a breakout season...major is sociology. Junior (2010): Emerged as one of the most dangerous threats in the MAC, leading the team with 690 yards on 50 catches... finished tied for the lead in touchdown receptions with five... had five or more catches in six games... wasted no time making his impact, hauling in career highs of 10 catches for 155 yards and a touchdown in the season opener against Rhode Island (9/2)... had 59 yards receiving and a touchdown in a win over Bowling Green (10/2)... recorded the team’s longest reception of the year after catching an 81-yard touchdown against Northern Illinois (10/16)... had five catches for 55 yards and a touchdown against Eastern Michigan (11/20). Sophomore (2009): Appeared in all 12 games as a reserve receiver...had five catches for 35 yards and a touchdown on the season...had a season-high three catches for 19 yards at UCF (9/19)...had his first career touchdown (6 yards) at Temple (9/26)...had a 10-yard grab against Gardner-Webb...had one kick return (11 yards) on the season. Redshirt Freshman (2008): Saw action in 13 games...had two catches for 11 yards...both catches came against Central Michigan (9/27). Freshman (2007): Redshirted in his first season at Buffalo. High School: Multi-talented athlete who has starred on the gridiron and hardwood at Lackawanna HS...part of teams that went 17-3 in his final two seasons...an All-Western New York selection as a defensive back, and led the Steelers with 17 receptions for 239 yards (14.1 ypc) with a pair of touchdowns...chose Buffalo for the environment and the players and coaches relationships with each other...also named to the Buffalo News All-Western New York Boys Basketball First Team...played in the 2007 Governer’s Bowl (NY vs. NJ). Personal: Born August 2, 1989...son of Woodrow and Elaine...has a brother, Woodrow...has two sisters, Toya and Sharranoda...enjoys playing basketball...favorite athlete is Marvin Harrison...favorite food is a steak hoagie. Anthony Miller California 80 TE CAL CAREER (Career Stats): Has played in 33 games with 21 starts, compiling totals of 40 receptions for 511 yards and two touchdowns, the first of which came on his first career catch as a freshman in 2008 and provided the winning score late in the fourth quarter of a 24-17 Emerald Bowl victory over Miami, Fla. 2011(Game-by-Game Stats): Named the No. 20 draft-eligible tight end by Phil Steele ... on the watch list for the John Mackey Award given annually to the nation's top tight end for the second straight season .... James Hanna Oklahoma 81 TE seven of 18 receptions went for touchdowns ... had career highs in receptions (four) and receiving yards (130) at Oklahoma State after hauling in a career-long 76-yard TD pass to ice the game. 2009 Started two games at tight end while appearing in all 12 ... had a career-high two receptions at Nebraska ... career-long catch of 19 yards against Kansas State. 2008 A reserve tight end ... also saw time on special teams ... lone reception came against Texas A&M ... also recorded two tackles, one each against Kansas and Nebraska. High School District offensive MVP in 2007 ... selected to the Texas Sports Writers all-state team as an honorable mention wide receiver... in 2007, hauled in 53 catches for 765 yards with 11 TDs ... also returned six punts for 145 yards and a TD and six kicks for 181 yards and another score ... rushed 17 times for 131 yards ... parents: Kim and Rick Grizzle ... mother played volleyball at Miami of Ohio ... coached by Cody Vanderford ... born: July 14, 1989. • No. 13 tight end in the nation (ESPN) • No. 20 tight end in the nation (Scout.com) • No. 32 overall player in Texas (Rivals.com) Personal Parents: Kim and Rick Grizzle ... mother played volleyball at Miami of Ohio ... multidisciplinary studies major. Garrett Celek Michigan State 85 TE CAREER NOTES: Three-year letterwinner played in 38 career games, including 12 starts . . . had 14 career receptions for 135 yards and three touchdowns. 2011 SEASON (SENIOR): Played in all 14 games, including six starts (Central Michigan, Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Indiana) . . . had three catches for 35 yards . . . hauled in a career-long 21-yard reception vs. Indiana . . . caught an 8-yard touchdown pass from Kirk Cousins in the win over Florida Atlantic . . . recipient of the team's Jim Adams Award on offense (unsung hero) . . . graduated in December with a degree in packaging. 2010 SEASON (JUNIOR): Played in the first two games of the 2010 season, including a starting assignment in Week 2 vs. Florida Atlantic at Ford Field . . . had two catches for 17 yards vs. FAU, including a 15-yard grab from Kirk Cousins that set up MSU's first touchdown . . . sidelined for the next 11 games with a shoulder injury. 2009 SEASON (SOPHOMORE): Saw action in 10 games . . . solid run blocker . . . had three receptions for 33 yards (11.0 avg.) and a touchdown . . . grabbed a 13-yard TD pass from Kirk Cousins in the second quarter vs. Western Michigan . . . caught his first two passes of the season, good for 20 yards, at Illinois . . . after missing the first three games of the season with a shoulder injury, returned to action at Wisconsin . . . saw action in 12 games as a red-shirt freshman last season . . . has nine career catches for 83 yards (9.2 avg.) and two touchdowns. 2008 SEASON (RED-SHIRT FRESHMAN): Appeared in 12 of 13 games in 2008 (DNP vs. Penn State due to illness) . . . had five starts to his credit when team opened games in a two tight end set (vs. California, Eastern Michigan, Indiana, Iowa and Ohio State) . . . had six catches for 50 yards (8.3 avg.) . . . had one reception for 8 yards vs. Georgia in the 2009 Capital One Bowl . . . caught his first career touchdown pass, a 3-yarder from Brian Hoyer in the first quarter at Northwestern . . . caught a season-long 18-yard pass from Hoyer on a third-down play at Indiana that gave MSU a first down on its first scoring drive of the game . . . had two receptions for 15 yards against Notre Dame . . . recorded his first career catch for 6 yards vs. Eastern Michigan.. Charles Burton Montana 57 OC/OL Montana: Chuck was moved from guard to tackle last spring and finished spring drills as the starter at left tackle. 2009: He saw action in 11 games at left guard, and his one start was against Cal Poly. 2008: He saw action in several games and lettered as a “true” freshman. High School: He was an All-C.I.F. pick as a senior at Long Beach Millikan High School...served as team captain for his 7-4 senior squad...voted Moore League co-Offensive Linemen of the Year...on Milikan High’s Weight Lifting Hall of Fame (benches 305 and squats 325)...his high school football coach was Kirk Diego...a four-year letterman in football and twice in track and field. Jason Slowey Western Oregon 54 OC/LS AS A JUNIOR (2010) Honorable mention D2football.com All-American…Named first team All-GNAC as an offensive lineman…Started all 11 games for the Wolves at left tackle. AS A SOPHOMORE (2009) Started all 10 games for the Wolves as the left tackle…Selected to the All-GNAC second team. AS A FRESHMAN (2008) Played in nine games, starting three on the offensive line as a freshman. AS A REDSHIRT (2007) Was a redshirt on the 2007 WOU football team. PRIOR TO WOU A 2007 graduate of North Medford High School…Lettered in football, basketball and track and field…First team all-league in football, basketball and track…Played in the Les Schwab Bowl. PERSONAL Born in Medford, Ore….Education major…Parents are Joe and Nancy. Mike Ryan Connecticut 71 OG Named to the preseason watch list for the Rotary Lombardi Award...Outstanding and versatile member of the Husky offensive line...Will be looked upon to provide leadership to that group in 2010. 2010: A First Team All-BIG EAST player in 2010...Started the first five games of the season at right tackle before moving over to the left for seven games...Missed the regular season finale vs. USF after being injured in the Cincinnati (Nov. 27) game..: Moved into the starting lineup in the fifth game of the 2009 season and started the final nine games of the season... earned the Offensive Game Ball along with his fellow offensive line starters after the win against Notre Dame (Nov. 21). 2008: Played reserve duty in five games. 2007: Redshirted ... Named the Offensive Scout Team Player of the Week prior to the Louisville game (Oct. 19). High School: Named first-team All-State in Class A ... Also picked as first-team All-County and All-Conference ... Selected for the Pennsylvania East-West All-Star Game ... Named to the Harrisburg Patriot-News Platinum 33 Team ... Helped Marian Catholic to an 11-2 mark in 2006 and a state playoff berth ... Team captain. Personal Profile: Phillip Michael Ryan ... Born on December 4, 1988 ... Brother, Jamie Ryan, played at Notre Dame ... An English major. Carson Rockhill Calgary U 65 OL 2010: Played all 12 games for the Dinos, including the Mitchell Bowl and Vanier Cup … backed up Canada West outstanding lineman Paul Swiston at the left tackle spot and earned one start on the season, Week 5 vs. UBC … 2009: Dressed in six of eight regular season games plus all four playoff games, including the Uteck Bowl and the Vanier Cup … 2008: Redshirted with the Dinos … represented Canada at the IFAF World Junior Championships in Canton, Ohio, winning a silver medal … named to the tournament’s second all-star team along the offensive line … Before UC: Played along both offensive and defensive lines … suffered Achilles’ injury in early 2008 but recovered in time for Dinos fall camp … won NFL Canada Scholarship from B.C. High School Football Association … Personal: Parents Derrick and Linda … full name Carson Giovanni Rockhill … graduate of Parksville, B.C.’s Ballenas High School … younger brother of Dinos defensive lineman Brandon Rockhill … born in Nanaimo, B.C. … wants to start his own business after receiving commerce degree from Haskayne School of Business … turned down several U.S. college offers to attend UC … Mark Asper Oregon 79 OG/OT 2011 — All-Pac-12 honorable mention by the conference coaches and third team selection by Phil Steele … Recipient of the Ed Moshofsky Trophy as team’s outstanding offensive lineman … Pac-12 all-Academic first team … Started 13 games at right guard and one at right tackle … Part of an offensive unit that ranked third in the nation in scoring, fifth in rushing and sixth in total offense … Led all offensive linemen with a 500-pound squat during winter conditioning. 2010 — Started 11 of 13 games at right tackle ... Helped pave the way for the nation’s leading rusher and fourth-best rushing offense in the FBS (286.23) ... Came off the bench in wins at Washington State and USC ... Named to the preseason all-Pac-10 third team by Phil Steele Publications ... Member of the Oregon Iron Club for the second straight year, totaling 1,137 pounds in clean, squat and bench during winter testing ... Shared top honors on the team with a 500-lb. squat. 2009 — Oregon's starting right guard in 12 of 13 games ... Did not start against USC due to injury but still played 39 snaps ... Was in on 70 or more plays in six of 13 games, including 94 snaps at Arizona ... Recorded 54 pancake blocks, just behind Jordan Holmes' team-high 55. 2008 — Saw action in seven games as a redshirt freshman … Drew his first career start, playing right tackle, in Oregon’s Holiday Bowl victory over Oklahoma State … Took part in 27 snaps vs. Utah State, as well as 17 at Washington State and 16 against Arizona State … Displayed steady improvement as the season wore on to position himself to break into the rotation on a regular basis the next three years … Spent the majority of his time at left tackle during 2008 spring drills, yet provides the flexibility to play both guard and tackle. 2007 — The elder statesman among underclassman on the team … Redshirted after being away from the game for a two-year religious mission commitment. BEFORE OREGON— The three-year offensive and defensive line starter and 2003 team captain earned first-team all-state offensive honors as a senior after receiving second-team accolades following 2002 … Also selected to all-area contingent as well as first-team all-High Country Conference acclaim on both sides of the ball in 2003 after capping junior year receiving first-team all-league offensive attention … Became the focus of Bees’ offensive attack as league’s scoring leader (34.0 avg.) often ran the football directly behind his escort … Loomed as conference’s best defensive lineman for team which completed year with a 4-5 ledger, and led team in quarterback sacks in each of his final two seasons … Also a starter for the school’s 2003 4A state champion basketball team which again ranked No. 1 in the state his final year. PERSONAL — Born Mark Vaughn Asper in Rexburg, Idaho. Wife: Michelle. Has two daughters. Parents: Vaughn and Virginia Asper. Family: Two brothers, three sisters. High School (Coach): Bonneville (Alex Hexford) 2004. Major: Spanish. Redshirt: 2007 David Green Rowman 66 OG 2010: chosen to the New Jersey Athletic Conference (NJAC) All-Conference second team HS: received All-Conference honors at Paul VI High School Paul Cornick North Dakota State 78 OG One of the Bison captains ... Versatile performer and the leader on the offensive line ... Moving back to tackle this season after filling need at offensive guard in 2010 ... Example to the younger players in the program ... Continues to increase strength and improve technique ... Has played in 33 games in career including 15 starts ... Selected to the Missouri Valley Football Conference ... 2010 SEASON (JUNIOR): Started in all 14 games including a dozen at right guard ... Named to the All-Missouri Valley Football Conference second team ... Two-time MFVC Offensive Lineman of the Week ... One of the main reasons NDSU had 1,000-yard rusher for the eighth straight season ... 2009 SEASON (SOPHOMORE): Played in all 11 games including one start against UNI (10-10-09) ... Part of offensive line that allowed NDSU to rank 8th in rushing offense (219.82 ypg) and 19th in total offense (400.09 ypg) in NCAA Division I FCS statistics ... 2008 SEASON (FRESHMAN): Played in eight games ... Named to the Missoui Valley Football Conference Honor Roll ... 2007 SEASON (REDSHIRT): Sat out the season as a redshirt in the Bison program ... HIGH SCHOOL: 2007 graduate of Orono High School ... Associated Press honorable mention all-state selection in 2006 and a third-team pick to the Star Tribune all-metro team ... All-conference and team defensive MVP for the 7-4 Spartans under coach Jeff Weiland ... Also named Wright County Defensive Lineman of the Year ... Made 141 tackles with 16 sacks over his final two seasons and forced three fumbles ... Also competed in track and field ... PERSONAL: Born March 15, 1989 ... Son of Jim and Deb Cornick ... Father played collegiate baseball for Army (1970-73) ... Has one sister, Jennifer ... College major is university studies. Tyrone Noviloff Idaho 67 OL 2011: Team captain ... started all 12 games at right offensive tackle. 2010: Started all 13 games at left offensive tackle ... was nominated for the AFCA Good Works Team for commitment to community service. John Cullen Utah 77 OT UTAH: All-conference candidate and former No. 1-rated junior college lineman is scheduled to start at left tackle for the second season. 2010-Started all 12 regular season games at left tackle ... missed the Las Vegas Bowl with an arm injury ... played 575 downs in the 10 games that were graded (no grades were recorded against BYU and Air Force) ... despite missing a game, he led the team in cuts (19) and had eight pancake blocks (11-game totals; no stats were kept for BYU) ... season-best 83% grade (52-of-63) and four cuts against Wyoming ... Academic all-MWC. PRIOR TO UTAH: Rated the No. 1 JC offensive lineman of 2009. PERSONAL: Son of Tom and Marnie Cullen ... father played football for Cerritos College ... one sister ... sociology major ... full name is John Wayne Cullen ... born May 16, 1990. Dustin Waldron Portland State 79 OT 2010 Honors Honorable Mention All-Big Sky Conference PSU Most Outstanding Offensive Lineman Most experienced player on the offensive side of the ball with 30 games and 24 starts to his credit... has not missed a start since taking over left tackle position his freshman season... versatile guy who has played on a line that led the nation in passing offense (2008) and led the Big Sky in rushing offense (2010)... will be a team leader in 2011. JUNIOR SEASON • 2009 Started every game of the season for the second year in a row, matched only by CB DeShawn Shead and K Zach Brown... named Outstanding Offensive Lineman by his teammates at the end of the season... presented with the Victor Award by the coaching staff for consistent superlative play and team leadership...part of an offensive line that blocked for the Big Sky Conference’s top rushing team (203.3 pg), coming just a few yards short of a school record (2,236)... earned honorable mention All-Big Sky Conference honors. SOPHOMORE SEASON • 2009 One of only two offensive players and five non-special teams players to start every game... served as left tackle once again. FRESHMAN SEASON • 2008 Competed in six games as a backup, but took over as a starter at left tackle the last two games after an injury to Landan Laurusaitis... played well as a true freshman... part of an offensive line that helped the Vikings lead the nation in passing (372.2 ypg) for the second year in a row. Darrion Weems Oregon 70 OT 2011 — Tied for the second-best bench press (365 pounds) among offensive linemen during winter conditioning. 2010 — After starting the season as UO’s top reserve on the offensive line, appeared in 11 games, starting seven … Got the opening assignment at left tackle at Tennessee and vs. Portland State, Stanford, Washington and Auburn … Started at right tackle in road wins at Washington State and USC … Helped pave the way for the nation’s top running back and No. 4 rushing team overall … Part of an offensive line that contributed to the top scoring offense (47.0 points per game) and total offense (530.7) in the FBS while rolling up six games of 300 or more rushing yards … Ranked third among offensive linemen with a bench press of 360 lbs. during winter testing. 2009 — The reserve offensive lineman made first collegiate start against USC at left tackle … Started just one game in 2009 but played at least 20 snaps in 11 of 13 games … Played season-high 67 snaps against the Trojans. 2008 — Saw limited playing time behind a veteran offensive line, appearing in three games … Made his collegiate debut vs. Utah State, playing a season-high eight snaps … Also took the field at Oregon State and vs. Oklahoma State in the Holiday Bowl. 2007 — Utilized his redshirt year by improving his conditioning … Recognized as the team’s offensive scout team player of the week for his contributions leading up to the Arizona game. BEFORE OREGON — Ranked among the top 20 players in the state by Rivals.com as well as one of the nation’s best offensive line prospects, the SuperPrep All-American and four-star honoree (Scout.com) was considered among the elite five offensive linemen in California … Paved the way for school that finished sixth in the Los Angeles City Section in scoring (369 points) and eighth in total offense (366.9 avg.) … Played his final two seasons for the Toreadors, who posted a 6-5 record in 2006 en route to second place in the West Valley League, after being displaced by Hurricane Katrina. PERSONAL — Born Darrion Anthony Weems. Parents: Stanley Weems and Paul and Toi Malbrough. Family: Four brothers and three sisters. High School (Coach): Taft (Troy Starr) 2007. Major: Political Science. Redshirt: 2007. Brother Eric played professional hockey. Jon Opperud Montana 74 OT." Scott Smith Texas Tech 94 DE 2011 BIG 12 RANKINGS: tied for second during league play in forced fumbles (3)... ranked fifth during league play in sacks (5.5)... ranked 10th during league play in tackles for a loss (9.0)... played in 8 games (7 starts) with 37 tackles (31 solo) with 9.0 tackles for a loss (loss of 58 yards), 5.5 sacks (loss of 34 yards), three quarterback hurries, three forced fumbles and one pass breakup... posted at least one sack in five of eight games played... notched multiple tackles for a loss in three games played... recorded five or more tackles in four games... posted nine tackles (eight solo) with two tackles for a loss of 33 yards and forced one fumble with one sack against No. 18 Baylor at Cowboys Stadium in Arlington (11/26)... led team with 1.5 sacks and collected seven tackles (four solo) at Missouri (11/19)... 1.5 sacks are the most by a Red Raider in a game during the season... posted one tackle, a sack for a loss of 10 yards against No. 2 Oklahoma State (11/12)... made three tackles (two solo) at No. 25 Texas (11/5)... collected six tackles (five solo) with 0.5 tackles for a loss with one quarterback hurry against Iowa State (10/29)... made two tackles (both solo) and had one quarterback hurry at No. 1 Oklahoma (10/22)... recorded five tackles (all solo) with two tackles for a loss of three yards, one sack, forced one fumble and broke up one pass against No. 17 Kansas State (10/15)... made season debut with four tackles (all solo) with two tackles for a loss of eight yards, tallied one sack and forced one fumble against No. 24 Texas A&M (10/8). 2010 Played in four games (1 start) making 14 tackles (10 solo) with three sacks, four tackles for a loss of 30 yards, recovered one fumble, forced two fumbles and intercepted one pass on the season... made five tackles (two solo) at Iowa State (10/2)... had a career game with six tackles (all solo), two sacks, three tackles for a loss of 18 yards, one interception and forced one fumble against No. 4 Texas (9/18)... became the sixth Texas Tech player - and only the second defensive lineman - since 2000 to have an interception and sack in the same game after having two sacks and an INT against Longhorns... the last Red Raider to tally an INT and sack in the same game was Marlon Williams against Rice (9/12/09) last season... the last defensive lineman to do it was Adell Duckett (at Kansas State - 10/30/04)... recorded two tackles (one solo), with one tackle for a loss of 12 yards, forced one fumble, recovered one fumble and had first career sack at New Mexico (9/11)... made career debut in season opener against SMU (9/5). JUNIOR COLLEGE Butler Community College... Four-star defensive end (Rivals)... top-rated JUCO defensive end nationally and fourth-rated overall player (Rivals)... ranked No. 15 on the SuperPrep JUCO 100... named NJCAA first team All-America (DL)... NJCAA Region VI Defensive Most Valuable Player... NJCAA Region VI first team all-region... KJCCC Defensive Player of the Year... KJCCC first team all-conference... recorded 14 sacks to rank tied for sixth nationally while leading the KJCCC... sacks total is fifth most in school history... led team to No. 10 national ranking... notched 74 tackles, including 50 solo tackles... had 26 tackles for a loss, 11 quarterback pressures, recovered four fumbles and had two pass breakups. HIGH SCHOOL St. Louis High School in Kailua, Hawaii.... PERSONAL Scott Smith... born June 6, 1988, in Kailua, Hawaii... son of George and Brenda Smith... has two sisters, Jamie and Jodi... undecided on major. Jamie Blatnick Oklahoma State 50 DE/OLB One of the more experienced members of the defensive line ...Has spent each of the last two seasons as a part-time starter ... A two-time academic all-Big 12 selection ... Prepped at Celina High School along with Cowboy sophomore linebacker Caleb Lavey. 2010 (Junior): Finished the year as OSU's sack leader with 5.5 for 34 yards in losses ... Had 27 tackles, including 18 solo stops ... Did not play in the season opener (coach's decision) ... Had five tackles against Louisiana and Kansas State ... Had quarterback sacks against Troy, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Texas and Kansas ... Credited with three tackles against Nebraska and two against Tulsa, Texas Tech and Texas ... Recovered a fumble against the Red Raiders ... Forced a fumble vs. Texas A&M ... Credited with a pass break-up against Troy ... Had one tackle vs. OU ... Broke up a pass and had a half-sack in the bowl win over Arizona. 2009 (Sophomore): Started the first five games, along with the Colorado and Oklahoma games, at defensive end ... Ended the season with 28 tackles, including 20 solo stops ... Also credited with five quarterback hurries ... Had a quarterback sack and forced a fumble at Oklahoma ... Had tackles for loss against Texas A&M and Texas and credited with a half-sack vs. Ole Miss ... Had a season-best four tackles against OU, Texas A&M, Texas Tech and Ole Miss. 2008 (Freshman): Recorded his first career sack against Iowa State ... Had two tackles against the Cyclones and Washington State ... Credited with a quarterback hurry against Houston and Missouri State ...Had a tackle for a loss against Oklahoma and had a tackle at Texas Tech ... Had three tackles against Oregon ... Saw action in all 13 games. 2007: Redshirt. High School: A two-way standout as an offensive and defensive lineman at Celina ... Allowed just one quarterback sack on the offensive side and recorded 20 sacks on the defensive side ... A two-time all-state selection by the Associated Press, in Class 2A as a junior and 3A as a senior ... Earned all-state honors on both sides of the ball ... Ranked as the No. 77 player in Texas by Scout.com ... That service also ranked him the nation's No. 42 defensive end prospect ... First-team member of the Dallas-Fort Worth all-area team ... A first-team all-district pick on offense and defense ... District MVP ... The Celina Bobcats won state during his junior season and lost in the championship game his senior year ... Was an all-state first-teamer in Class 2A as a junior on the offensive line ... A member of The Sporting News top 200 in the southwest ... An all-region pick by PrepStar. Personal: Also considered TCU, Texas Tech and Duke ... Born June 24, 1989, in Fontana, Calif. ... Health promotion major ... Son of Anton Blatnick, Sr., and David and Sherry Hayes ... An academic all-state honoree ... Also participated in basketball and track ... Played football for Aaron Ford at Celina. Braylon Broughton TCU 99 DE. Josue Ortiz Harvard 48 DT/DE Ronnie Cameron Old Dominion 98 DT. Oren Wilson Akron/ Michigan State 91 NT/DT as a Senior (2010): Sat out due to NCAA transfer guidelines ... utilized his redshirt. at Michigan State: Started 26 of 38 games at nose tackle for the Spartans from 2007-09 … recorded 43 career tackles, 3.5 tackles for a loss, two fumble recoveries, two pass breakups and one sack over his career … played in three bowl games for Spartans. at Harmony Community: … two-time All-Northern New Jersey first-team selection … two-time all-city and all-area pick … earned all-conference honors four years in a row … posted more than 80 tackles as a senior, including eight sacks … registered 70 tackles as a junior, including 10 sacks. Eric Latimore Penn State 95 DE/DT. 2010 Senior Season Latimore played in the initial five games, with three starts. But, on the first play against Illinois, he suffered a broken wrist, which required surgery and ended his season. He made six tackles, with 2.5 tackles for loss, for the season. Latimore made two solo stops against Kent State, including one minus-yardage hit, and posted solo tackles against Temple and Iowa, with a TFL. He saw action on 157 snaps during the first five games, led by 43 at Alabama, before suffering the wrist injury.. Christo Bilukidi Georgia State 53 DT. Brett Roy Nevada 47 DE/DT 2011: Honors candidate who will be a leader on the defensive side of the ball in his final season at Nevada ... Enters his senior year ranked ninth in both career tackles for loss (14.5) and career sacks (8.0) after a breakout season last year as a junior ... Named preseason first-team All-WAC by Athlon Sports ... Named preseason first-team All-WAC by Phil Steele ... Named preseason first-team All-WAC by Lindy's. 2010: Emerged as a pivotal member of the defense with a standout performance in his first year as a starter ... Started all 14 games at one of the tackle spots ... Was credited with 50 tackles on the year and was second on the team with 14.5 TFLs and 8.0 sacks ... Total TFL yardage was 72 yards ... Set career high with six tackles against UNLV and then matched that at Hawaii ... Had a monster game against New Mexico State with 4.0 tackles for loss, including a pair of sacks ... Recorded four stops including a sack in the Kraft Fight Hunger Bowl win over Boston College. 2009: Played in all 13 games and was a strong presence off the bench for Nevada's defensive front ... Won the team's Blackout Award and named the Outstanding Special Teams Player ... Recorded 21 tackles on the season, including a career-high four stops at New Mexico State ... First career sack was for a 3-yard loss at Utah State ... Notched a tackle in 10 of the 12 games during the regular season. 2008: Played in 11 games and was a valuable reserve on the defensive front ... Recorded 11 tackles on the year including one for a loss at Missouri ... Forced a fumble against New Mexico State ... Career-high three tackles came against Utah State. 2007: Redshirted his first year at Nevada. Tahir Whitehead Temple 2 OLB Team captain ... named to the 2011 Butkus Award Watch List … 2011 preseason fourth-team All-MAC selection by Phil Steele’s College Football. Honors: Recipient of the 2011 Mark Bresani Award for spirit and enthusiasm, presented at the conclusion of spring drills … named Honorable Mention National LB of the Week (Sept. 20, 2010)… named the most improved defensive player following 2010 spring drills. 2010: Played in all 12 games with eight starts at outside linebacker … also played on the punt and kickoff return units … finished sixth on defense with 56 tackles, including 7.5 TFL … had five tackles and a six-yard interception return at Miami … had four tackles and a break-up against Ohio … had three tackles and a break-up in the win at Kent State ... had three solo stops, two TFL, and a forced fumble in the shutout of Akron … had four solo tackles and a hurry in the win at Buffalo … had five tackles in the win over Bowling Green … had six tackles at Northern Illinois … had three tackles in the win at Army … had nine tackles, a sack, and a forced fumble at No. 23/20 Penn State … had five tackles, 3.5 TFL, and a 10-yard sack in the win over Connecticut en route to Honorable Mention national player of the week honors … had four tackles in the win over Central Michigan … had five tackles, including a TFL, in the win over Villanova in the season opener … lettered. 2009: Played in all 13 games … also played on the punt, punt return, and kickoff return units … finished the season with 30 tackles, 4.5 TFL, and two break-ups … had an assisted tackle and a hurry against UCLA in the EagleBank Bowl … had two solo takedowns at Ohio .. made three solo tackles, a TFL, and a break-up in the win at Akron … had four tackles in the win over Miami … made two stops in the win at Navy … had a tackle and a break-up in the win at Toledo … made a solo stop in the win over Army … had an assist for a TFL in the win over Ball State … made six stops, including five solos and two TFL, in the win at Eastern Michigan … made two solo stops in the win over Buffalo … had a solo tackle at No. 5 Penn State ... lettered. 2008: Played in all 12 game ... one of six freshmen to play in every game ... also saw playing time as a member of the kickoff and kickoff return units ... had three solo tackles in his collegiate debut at Army ... had a solo tackle against Western Michigan ... made two solo stops in the win over Eastern Michigan ... had an assist in the win over Akron ... lettered. High School: Team captain ... played at West Side HS for coach Brian Logan ... played safety, wide receiver, tight end, and running back for the 2007 state champions ... as a senior, had 130 tackles, seven deflections, three interceptions, two sacks, two forced fumbles, and two fumble recoveries ... named to the 2008 All-Academic Team ... selected to play in the Governor[apos]s Bowl ... experienced an incredible turnaround during his prep career ... two-time All-Skyline Conference honoree ... named All-County and All-Academic as a sophomore ... team went from 1-9 his freshman season to 10-2 with a NJSIAA?Group III Sectional championship his senior season. Personal: Tahir Ali Whitehead ... born April 2, 1990, in Jersey City, N.J. ... mother is Quadira Whitehead … siblings are Quaheem (23), Janavia (18) and Dariq (6) ... criminal justice major … graduated in December 2011. D.J. Bryant James Madison 13 OLB/DE 2011 Named First Team All-CAA as a defensive lineman Has 43 tackles, including leading the team with 12 tackles for a loss and 5.5 sacks, adding two pass breakups and a fumble recovery Had four unassisted tackles in the season-opening game at North Carolina Had career-high eight tackles, including 1.5 for a loss in home opener against Central Connecticut State Had five tackles, 2.5 tackles for a loss and 1.5 sacks in win at William & Mary Had two tackles and a sack in win over William & Mary Contributed 2.5 tackles for a loss and a sack in game at Old Dominion Picked up one sack and five tackles in game at New Hampshire Had a sack in season-finale at Massachusetts At JMU: Fifth-year Duke who is returning starter at defensive end... Had a strong finish to his 2009 season and a good spring and is expected to continue to play a leading role on the defensive front, said defensive line coach J.C. Price... preseason Second-Team All-CAA by Phil Steele. 2010: Played all 11 games at defensive end, starting in six to earn his third letter... Played a large role in the defense recording 34 tackles on the season... Made eight tackles for loss totaling 41 yards, including tying for the team lead with 2.5 sacks... Recorded a career-high seven tackles including 2.5 for loss against Delaware... Had six tackles and one forced fumble against both Villanova and UMass... Returned a blocked punt for a touchdown against William and Mary. 2009: Played in all 11 games, starting nine of them, including the final seven... Finished the season with 32 tackles, 6.5 tackles for loss, 4.5 sacks and one interception... Tied for second on the team in sacks and broke up four passes, second on the team... Had a career-best seven tackles, including five solos, and one sack at Hofstra... had five tackles each against VMI and Villanova... Posted four tackles and his first collegiate interception in the victory at Liberty... Had his first blocked kick, against Richmond, which was returned for a touchdown by teammate Corwin Acker, giving JMU a 17-14 second-quarter lead... Recorded tackles in all 11 contests and at least 0.5 tackle for loss in eight of them. 2008: Appeared in six games and took part in nine tackles, including three unassisted stops... Involved in five tackles, including a stop for loss, vs. Hofstra... Took part in tackles vs. Appalachian State, William & Mary, Villanova in the NCAA playoffs and Montana. High School: Three-year starter and two-time All-County defensive end and wide receiver at Randallstown... Most Valuable Player of the Baltimore City-County All-Star game... Had 45 receptions for 890 yards and 15 touchdowns as a senior, 30 catches for 475 yards and eight touchdowns as a junior and 20 catches for 450 yards and six touchdowns as a sophomore... Had 6.5 quarterback sacks as a sophomore and 12.5 as a junior... All-Metro in basketball and was on three state title teams. Personal: Kinesiology major with a sports management concentration. Caleb McSurdy Montana 52 ILB. Korey Toomer Idaho 9 ILB 2011: Team MVP ... had 68 total tackles (38 solo and 30 assists) ... led Vandals in sacks (four) and tackles for loss (10.5) ... also had four pass breakups, three quarterback hurries, one interception and one fumble recovery ... late in the season added a dual role at fullback and scored on a two-point conversion at San Jose State and later scored three touchdowns vs. Utah State ... finished with nine carries for 27 yards ... defensively, twice had 10 tackles – at Texas A&M (four solo, six assists) and vs. Louisiana Tech (six solo, four assists) ... had two sacks vs. Louisiana Tech and 2.5 tackles for loss at Virginia. 2010: Redshirted.. Zach Nash Cal-State Sacramento 11 OLB/DE One of the top pass rushers in the nation, Nash enters 2010 with 19.0 career sacks and 25.5 career tackles-for-loss…is tied for third in Hornet history in sacks and is 8.5 behind leader Mike Brannon…ranks seventh in program history in TFLs. 2010 Season: Was named second team All-America by The Sports Network and the Associated Press and was a first team all-Big Sky selection…set the Sacramento State single-season record and 13.0 sacks during the year…finished the season with 37 total tackles, with 16.5 for loss…also forced a school-record six fumbles and had four quarterback hurries…set the Hornet single-game record with 5.0 sacks and tied the record with 6.0 TFLs in the win at Idaho State…that performance helped him earn the Big Sky Defensive Player of the Week award…had three sacks against Western Oregon and Northern Colorado…had at least one tackle in all 11 games…high of six came against Montana, Northern Colorado and Idaho State. 2009 Season: Earned honorable mention all-Big Sky accolades for the second consecutive season…started all nine games in which he appeared and finished the season with 34 tackles (17-17)…also had 3.5 tackles-for-loss, including 2.5 sacks…was credited with eight tackles, including six solos, in the win over Northern Arizona…had six stops against UNLV and Montana. 2008 Season: Named honorable mention all-Big Sky during his freshman season…played in 11 of the team’s 12 games, starting every game in which he played at defensive end…tallied 47 total tackles, including 5.5 tackles-for-loss…also added 3.5 sacks, recovered two fumbles and broke up five passes…was named the Big Sky Defensive Player of the Week against Humboldt State after recording 10 total tackles, 2.5 TFL and 1.5 sacks. 2007 Season: Sat out the year as a redshirt. Adrian Robinson Temple 43 OLB/DE Played in EVERY game of his collegiate career … started 38 career games, including a team-best 32 consecutive … one of a school record five Temple Owls to play in the 2008 Big 33 Game ... named the Big 33 Game MVP. Honors: 2011 first-team All-MAC honoree … 2011 ECAC All-Star … 2011 first-team All-MAC by Phil Steele … 2011 first-team All-MAC by College Sports Madness … candidate for the 2011 Lowe’s Senior CLASS Award … named to the 2011 Bronko Nagurski Trophy Watch List … named the coaches’ defensive player of the week (Nov. 9, 2011) … 2011 CDS preseason FBS Honorable Mention All-American … 2011 preseason first-team All-MAC selection by Phil Steele’s College Football … 2010 first-team All-MAC honoree … 2010 second-team All-MAC by Phil Steele … MAC Specialist of the Week (Oct. 18, 2010) … coaches’ specialist of the week (Oct. 16, 2010) … named the Walter Camp National Defensive Player of the Week (Sept. 18, 2010) … named to the 2010 Bronko Nagurski Trophy and 2010 Chuck Bednarik Award Watch Lists … 2010 College Football Insiders preseason Honorable Mention All-American … 2010 preseason first-team All-MAC selection by Phil Steele’s College Football … 2010 preseason All-MAC honoree by Blue Ribbon College Football Yearbook … 2009 MAC Defensive Player of the Year … 2009 first-team All-MAC honoree … named first-team All-MAC by Phil Steele … 2009 MAC Defensive MVP by the Sporting News … ESPN.com’s All-Non-Automatic Qualifying Team selection … named the coaches’ defensive player of the week following the Toledo game (Oct. 25, 2009) … a 2009 Midseason second-team All-MAC selection by Phil Steele’s College Football … 2009 preseason fourth-team All-MAC selection by Phil Steele’s College Football. 2011: Team captain … started all 13 games at defensive end … one of nine Owls to start every game … also played on the punt return unit … finished fourth in team tackling with 52 tackles, including a team-best 13.5 TFL, an interception, and a blocked kick on the season … had five tackles, 2.5 TFL and a sack in the bowl win over Wyoming … had three tackles in the win over Kent State … had two tackles in the win over Army … had seven tackles, two sacks for a loss of nine yards, and a 14-yard interception return in the win over Miami … had seven tackles at Ohio … had eight tackles, including two TFL, and a hurry at Bowling Green … had two tackles in the shutout of Ball State … made six solo stops, including a 10-yard sack, against Toledo … added four tackles and a seven-yard sack in the win at Maryland … had four tackles and a blocked field goal against Penn State … had two solo tackle and two sacks for a loss of 15 yards in the win at Akron … lettered. 2010: Started all 12 games at right end … one of just seven Owls to start every game … also played on the punt return and field goal defense units … on the season, had 38 tackles, 4.5 TFL, and 3.5 sacks … had three tackles at Miami … had four tackles against Ohio … had three tackles, a six-yard sack, and a forced fumble in the win at Kent State … made a solo stop in the shutout of Akron … had two tackles and a shared sack in the win at Buffalo … had two solo tackles, a 14-yard sack, and a PAT block in the win over Bowling Green … blocked the PAT on the Falcons’ first TD, forcing BGSU to go for two on the game’s final play en route to MAC s and coaches’ specialist of the week honors … had five tackles and a blocked punt at Northern Illinois … made five stops in the win at Army … had a solo tackle and a fumble recovery at No. 23/20 Penn State … had four tackles, two forced fumbles, and a 24-yard fumble return for a touchdown in the win over Connecticut … the TD was his first … named the Walter Camp National Defensive Player of the Week … made three solo stops, including a TFL, in the win over Central Michigan … had five solo tackles and a sack in the win over Villanova in the season opener … lettered. 2009: Played in all 13 games with 10 starts at left end … also played on the punt return and opponent field goal units … led Temple and the MAC with 13 sacks … finished the season with 46 tackles, including a team-best 14 TFL, a team-best five forced fumbles, three break-ups, and three hurries … had four tackles, two TFL, and a sack against UCLA in the EagleBank Bowl … made a solo stop at Ohio … had three tackles, a sack, a TFL, and a forced fumble in the win at Akron … made six tackles and two sacks in the win at Navy … had five tackles, two sacks, two TFL, and forced fumble, and a hurry in the win at Toledo en route to the coaches’ defensive player of the game honors … made four stops, a sack, and forced a fumble in the win over Army … had four solo tackles, two sacks, a forced fumble, and a break-up in the win over Ball State … made four assists in the win at Eastern Michigan … made six stops, including five solos, in the win over Buffalo … had four solo tackles, two for a loss, and a sack against Villanova ... lettered. 2008: Played in all 12 games with three starts at defensive end ... one of just six freshmen to play in every game ... also saw playing time on the punt return unit ... had a tackle at Army and at No. 16/15 Penn State ... had three tackles, including two solos and a 0.5 TFL , in the win at Miami ... added two tackles at Central Michigan ... received the starting nod at Kent State and held the position for the last last three games ... recorded a season-high seven tackle and a TFL at Kent State ... had two assists in the win over Eastern Michigan ... tallied three solo tackles in the win over Akron ... lettered. Tashaun Gipson Wyoming 24 CB/S UW This Season: The Cowboys will look to Tashaun Gipson to be a leader in the secondary during the 2011 campaign, after the departure of seniors Marcell Gipson, his older brother, and Chris Prosinski. With a team-high 37 consecutive starts under his belt, Gipson has led Wyoming in pass breakups and interceptions as a cornerback the last two seasons, and is a candidate for postseason honors as a senior this fall. 2010: Gipson continued to be one of UW's top defensive backs in his junior campaign, as he started all 12 games and earned Honorable Mention All-Mountain West honors from MW coaches and media. He finished the season with 40 tackles, 3.5 tackles for loss, nine pass breakups and three interceptions. His average of 1.0 passes defended per game tied for second in the league and No. 26 nationally, while his three interceptions ranked fourth in the MWC and tied for No. 87 in the NCAA. Gipson notched 77 interception return yards on the season with returns of 32 against Utah, 26 against Colorado State and 19 against San Diego State. He recorded a season-high six tackles at BYU and had five against Colorado State. 2009: Gipson intercepted three passes his sophomore season to tie for the team lead and tie for 10th in the Mountain West Conference. In addition to his three interceptions, he recorded six pass breakups for a total of nine passes defended, which led the team and tied him for No. 9 in the MWC. Two of his interceptions came against UNLV, tying him for the NCAA's 11th best single-game interception total for the `09 season. Gipson's other interception came in the season opener versus Weber State. His top single-game tackle performances of the year came on the road at Colorado (10 tackles, one forced fumble), at San Diego State (nine tackles) and in the New Mexico Bowl vs. Fresno State (seven tackles). 2008: The younger Gipson excelled in the starting lineup, ranking sixth on the team in tackles, with 56, and tying with his brother Marcell for the team lead in pass breakups, with 10. Gipson began the season in strong fashion, recording a season high nine tackles in a season-opening win over Ohio. He also had seven tackles on two occasions -- versus Air Force and at UNLV. Gipson also broke up three passes against UNLV. His other top performance of 2008 came at BYU, where he recorded six tackles, broke up three passes and forced one fumble. Derrius Brooks Western Kentucky 23 CB 2010: Played his first season on defense, finishing the year with 36 total tackles, and a team-high three interceptions...Two of those three INTs came at Arkansas State, making him the first Hilltopper since 2004 to pick off two passes in the same game...Also showed off his offensive skills in the win over the Red Wolves, scoring the game-winning two-point conversion in overtime on a reverse...His other interception came in WKU's victory at Louisiana-Lafayette - a pick he returned 62 yards for a touchdown...Recovered a blocked punt for a touchdown against Middle Tennessee...Posted six tackles against Nebraska in his first defensive start, and followed that up with a season-high seven tackles at Kentucky the following week. 2009: Finished fourth on the team with 395 all-purpose yards, including 261 yards in kick returns, 108 yards receiving and 26 yards rushing in 12 games...Returned three kicks for 69 yards in the season opener against Tennessee...Caught first career touchdown pass in week four at Navy, an 18-yard grab...Finished game with 37 yards receiving and 43 yards on two kick returns...Had an 81-yard kick return in week eight at North Texas, while hauling in two passes for 38 yards...Had 178 all-purpose yards in the game...Caught three passes in week nine against Troy and reeled in a pair of receptions in the season finale against Arkansas State. 2008: Saw action in five games, starting three, catching 13 passes for 140 yards, averaging 28 yards per game receiving...Made first career start and recorded five receptions for 43 yards in a road win over Eastern Kentucky...Had a team-high six receptions for 40 yards against Alabama...Posted a 38-yard reception in a home win over Murray State. 2007: Sat out as a redshirt...Earned all-league honors in the 55-meter dash after finishing third with a time of 6.39 seconds as the WKU track and field team won the team title at the Sun Belt Conference indoor championships...Also helped the Hilltoppers win the Sun Belt. HS/Misc:. The Brooks File: - interdisciplinary studies. Antwuan Reed Pittsburgh 22 CB 2011 Scouting Report: Grizzled veteran in the secondary and Pitt's most experienced cornerback...started every regular-season game a year ago...held out of spring drills for cautionary reasons due to a concussion but is expected to be at full strength for training camp. 2010: Starter at cornerback in all 12 regular-season games...missed BBVA Compass Bowl vs. Kentucky with a concussion... compiled 40 tackles, six PBUs, one interception, one forced fumble, one fumble recovery and one blocked punt...in his first career start, had six tackles, forced and recovered a fumble, and blocked a punt at Utah...had career-high seven tackles with one PBU at Syracuse...clinched a 17-10 victory at USF with an INT at the Pitt 20 as time expired...was named the defensive recipient of the Ed Conway Award as one of the most improved players of spring drills. 2009: Played in all 13 games as a reserve cornerback...had 13 tackles, one interception and one fumble recovery...INT came against USF...had a season-high two tackles in four different games...clinched the 24-17 victory at Rutgers when he recovered a fumble (forced by Jovani Chappel) at the Knights' 47 with a minute to go...named the coaching staff Special Teams Player of the Game for the Notre Dame contest. 2008: Played in the final nine contests of the season, making his debut in Pitt's nationally televised 26-21 upset at No. 10 USF...had seven tackles and one forced fumble on the year...had a season-high three tackles vs. Louisville... forced a fumble at Cincinnati. Troy Woolfolk University of Michigan 21 CB At Michigan ... four-year letterman ... returning starter in the secondary ... played in 45 career games and made 23 starts ... recorded 91 tackles and five pass breakups during his career ... special teams contributor. Fifth-Year Senior (2011) ... Sugar Bowl champion ... earned fourth varsity letter ... appeared in all 13 games; played seven at cornerback, starting six of them (Western Michigan, Eastern Michigan, San Diego State, Minnesota, Northwestern, Michigan State), and six at safety, starting four (Purdue, Iowa, Illinois, Ohio State); played 12 games on special teams ... IOWA (Nov. 5) ... totaled six tackles, including a career-best five assisted stops, as starting safety ... EASTERN MICHIGAN (Sept. 17) ... served as the honorary senior game captain in start at cornerback. Senior (2010) ... redshirted ... suffered foot injury during fall camp and is expected to miss the season. Junior (2009) ... earned third varsity letter ... started all 12 games in the secondary ... made six starts at safety and six at cornerback ... amassed a career-best 46 tackles and one pass breakup ... made first career start at safety and assisted on special teams vs. Western Michigan (Sept. 5) ... recorded four tackles against the Broncos ... posted a career-high eight tackles from safety position vs. Notre Dame (Sept. 12) ... made four tackles at safety vs. Eastern Michigan (Sept. 19) ... registered two tackles at safety vs. Indiana (Sept. 26) ... contributed five tackles at Michigan State (Oct. 3) ... started at cornerback against Iowa (Oct. 10), his first career start at that position ... posted four tackles and one PBU against the Hawkeyes ... posted one stop at cornerback vs. Delaware State (Oct. 17) ... ... made one solo tackle at cornerback vs. Penn State (Oct. 24) ... recorded two tackles against Illinois (Oct. 31) ... earned starting assignment at cornerback vs. Purdue (Nov. 7) ... contributed three tackles from cornerback spot at Wisconsin (Nov. 14) ... returned to starting safety position and made seven stops vs. Ohio State (Nov. 21). Sophomore (2008) ... earned second varsity letter ... played in all 12 games ... second on the team with 10 special teams tackles ... played cornerback and special teams vs. Utah (Aug. 30), tallying one stop ... assisted on two special teams tackles vs. Miami (Sept. 6) ... recorded one special teams stop at Notre Dame (Sept. 13) ... collected one special teams stop vs. Wisconsin (Sept. 27) ... registered one tackle on special teams vs. Illinois (Oct. 4) ... posted one special teams tackle vs. Toledo (Oct. 11) ... earned one special teams stop at Penn State (Oct. 18) ... played cornerback and special teams vs. Michigan State (Oct. 25) ... contributed on special teams at Purdue (Nov. 1) and at Minnesota (Nov. 8) ... posted two solo tackles against the Gophers ... played cornerback in nickel package and saw special teams action vs. Northwestern (Nov. 15) ... contributed on special teams at Ohio State (Nov. 22). Outdoor Track (2007-08) ... picked up U.S. Track & Field and Cross Country Coaches Association All-Region team selection for performance with 4x100-meter relay team ... member of 4x100-meter relay team that placed fifth (40.06) at the NCAA Mideast Regional ... member of the outdoor Big Ten champion team, the school's first team title since 1983 ... helped claim conference title with a sixth-place finish in the 100m dash, logging a personal best time of 10.58 at the championship ... ran opening leg for 4x100-meter relay team that claimed conference crown ... finished seventh in the 100m dash (10.60) at the Jesse Owens Classic ... place third in the 100m dash (10.88) at EMU Invitational. Freshman (2007) ... earned first varsity letter ... played in eight games ... registered five tackles and two pass breakups ... played on special teams units vs. Appalachian State (Sept. 1), Oregon (Sept. 8), Notre Dame (Sept. 15), Penn State (Sept. 22) and Northwestern (Sept. 29) ... made career debut against the Mountaineers ... played special teams and as reserve cornerback vs. Eastern Michigan (Oct. 6) ... tallied one solo tackle and two pass breakups against the Eagles ... collected a career-high four stops vs. Purdue (Oct. 13), playing cornerback and special teams ... did not see game action against Illinois (Oct. 20), Minnesota (Oct. 27) or Michigan State (Nov. 3) ... played on special teams at Wisconsin (Nov. 10) ... did not see game action vs. Ohio State (Nov. 17) or against Florida in the Capital One Bowl (Jan. 1). Clarence Laster SW Oklahoma State 32 DB/RT Senior who is looking to play a big role in secondary at safety…Team’s top returning tackler who finished second on the squad last year with 71 tackles…Had team-high 14 tackles in win over Central Oklahoma…Also added 12 against Texas A&M-Kingsville, including returning an interception 53 yards. Junior College: First-team, all-American, all-state and Region IV Defensive Player-of-the-Year at Mt. San Jacinto Junior College…Led the entire Southern California region with 109 tackles…Earned Mountain Conference’s Defensive Player-of-the-Year…Returned a fumble 99 yards for a score.. Jeremy Jones Wayne State (MI) 8 S/CB Career Notes: Set WSU career record for interception return yards (406) and ranks fourth all-time with 17 career interceptions ... had three interception returns for touchdowns ... 291 career tackles (184-107) is tops among all defensive backs in WSU history and ranks ninth among all players ... ranks second all-time with 23 pass break-ups and 40 passes defended ... finished with 8.5 sacks (minus 51 yards). Jeremy Jones kickoff return in national championship game.2011: Selected to the AFCA (American Football Coaches Association) All-America team ... named to the Associated Press Little All-America First Team as well as the All-America First Team for both D2Football.com and the Hansen's Football Gazette ... voted to the Daktronics All-America Second Team ... selected to Don Hansen's Super Region Three First Team ... voted GLIAC Defensive Back of the Year ... selected to the Daktronics Super Region First Team at safety ... named to the All-GLIAC First Team ... his 35-yard interception return set up the Warriors’ fourth touchdown in Urbana game ... recorded a quarterback hurry along with four tackles (3-1) vs. Tiffin ... earned D2Football.com National Defensive Player of the Week award (as well as GLIAC Defensive Player of the Week) after garnering a game-high 11 tackles (11-0) including a sack plus two interceptions in win over #22-Michigan Tech ... made a game-high 11 tackles (4-7) including one for loss in the win at Ohio Dominican ... had a late fourth quarter interception at Northern Michigan, his 10th in his last 11 games played to earn WSU's Defensive Player of the Week award ... garnered a game-high 10 tackles (6-4) vs. Lake Erie including 1.5 for loss ... recorded a pass break-up and a quarterback hurry at Ashland ... recorded 11 tackles (9-2) at Hillsdale ... had an interception in win at Indianapolis ... made seven tackles (6-1) vs. Findlay including 1.5 for loss (one sack) along with a quarterback hurry ... recorded five tackles (4-1) at St. Cloud including a 10-yard sack ... had three first half interceptions at Nebraska Kearney and broke the school record for interception return yards in a game (144) and career (406) to earn WSU's Defensive Player of the Week award ... tied for team-high total with nine tackles (5-4) at Minnesota Duluth ... had a team-best seven tackles (6-1) including two sacks at Winston-Salem ... recorded 14 tackles (6-8) including two for loss (one sack) and a pass break-up in the national championship game ... also had a 38-yard kickoff return (first of his career) vs. Pittsburg State ... led WSU in solo tackles (73), total tackles (106), interceptions (9), interception return yards (196) and quarterback hurries (4), was second in tackles for loss (12.5) and third in both sacks (6.5) and pass break-ups (5) ... his nine picks led the GLIAC and was tied for second in the NCAA ... finished 15th in the NCAA in interceptions per game (0.56) ... voted WSU's Defensive Most Valuable Player ... Game-By-Game Stats. One of Jeremy Jones interception returns at Nebraska-Kearney.2011 NCAA Playoffs: Ranked 37th in tackles per game (8.4), while finishing third in total tackles (42) ... was second in tackles for loss per game (1.40) and tied-for-third in sacks per game (0.80) ... first in interception return yards (144) and tied-for-first in interceptions (3). 2010: Named to the Daktronics All-America First Team (the first WSU defensive player in school history to earn First Team All-America accolades) ... voted to the D2Football.com Honorable Mention All-America team ... selected to the Daktronics Super Region #3 First Team defense ... voted to the All-GLIAC First Team in the defensive backfield ... his 100-yard interception return vs. Hillsdale was the longest in the GLIAC in 2010 ... tied-for-20th nationally in interceptions per game (0.50/five in 10 contests) ... finished with a career-best 68 tackles (39-29) ... 124 interception return yards was sixth most in school history ... started all 10 games played at safety ... recorded a team-best five solo tackles against Northwood including two for loss ... made a tackle for loss, a fumble recovery and had a quarterback hurry at Tiffin ... tallied a career-high 13 tackles (4-9) at Michigan Tech ... recorded two tackles (1-1) and a pass break-up against Ohio Dominican ... both interceptions against Northern Michigan led directly to WSU touchdowns ... earned WSU's Defensive Player of the Week award for the two picks vs. the Wildcats ... made 11 tackles (7-4) at Lake Erie including four tackles for loss (two sacks) and a fumble recovery at the LEC three ... recorded five solo tackles vs. Ashland ... tied an NCAA record with a 100-plus yard interception return vs. Hillsdale to earn the GLIAC Defensive Player of the Week award ... made nine tackles (7-2) against the Chargers plus had three pass break-ups to earn the squad's Defensive Player of the Week award ... recorded a game-high 13 tackles (4-9), two interceptions and a pass break-up at Saginaw Valley to earn D2Football.com National Defensive Player of the Week honors ... dressed but did not play vs. Indianapolis due to injury ... had two tackles for loss at Findlay ... voted WSU's Defensive Most Valuable Player ... played on the punt return team ... ranked 23rd in the GLIAC in tackles per game (6.8), tied-for-second in interceptions (5), third in interception return yards (124), tied-for-fourth in fumbles recovered (2), tied-for-fifth in passes defended per game (1.00), tied-for-11th in tackles for loss per game (1.00) ... Game-By-Game Stats. 2009: Named to the All-GLIAC Honorable Mention team ... played in the final 10 games starting nine times ... missed Mercyhurst game with an injury ... had seven solo tackles (tying a career-high) vs. Saginaw Valley plus a fumble recovery ... recorded seven tackles (5-2) at Indianapolis in first career start along with an interception, a pass break-up and a tackle for loss ... selected WSU Defensive Player of the Week for the Greyhound contest ... made seven tackles (5-2) plus had a pass break-up vs. Findlay ... had two pass break-ups and a fumble recovery at Tiffin ... made a career-high 12 tackles (4-8) vs. Ashland ... recorded eight tackles (6-2) at Northern Michigan ... had two pass break-ups at Hillsdale ... played on punt return team ... tied-for-fourth in the GLIAC in fumble recoveries (2) ... tied-for-11th in the league in passes defended (7) and 34th in tackles per game (5.4) ... fifth on the squad with 54 tackles and second with six pass break-ups ... wore No. 8 ... Game-By-Game Stats. 2008: season ... wore No. 27 ... Game-By-Game Stats. 2007: Dressed for the five home games but did not see any playing time ... was redshirted ... was WSU's Defensive Scout Player of the Week for both the Findlay and Grand Valley games. D.J. Campbell California 7 S CAL CAREER (Career Stats): Has played in 33 games primarily as a special teams player and reserve safety, including 24 of 25 possible contests during his last two years with the program in 2009 and '10 ... has made one start ... has contributed 39 tackles, 2.0 tackles for loss (-17 yards), 2.0 sacks (-17 yards), two pass breakups and two fumble recoveries. 2011 (Game-By-Game Stats) 2010 (Game-By-Game Stats): Played in all 12 games, including his first career start at Washington State ... posted career highs of ... earned Scout Team Player of the Year honors on defense. Cyhl Quarles Wake Forest 5 S 2010 (Junior): Played in all 12 games with seven starts at strong safety ... Finished second on the team in total tackles (71) while leading the squad in solo stops (45) ... Led the Deacons in tackles in four games ... Finished 24th in the ACC in tackles (5.9/gm) ... Tied for the team lead with eight tackles, including a tackle for loss vs. Presbyterian (Sept. 2) ... Made five tackles vs. Duke (Sept. 11) ... Had a team-high eight tackles at Stanford (Sept. 18) ... Recorded five tackles at Florida State (Sept. 25) ... Picked off first pass of the season and made five tackles vs. Navy (Oct. 9) ... The interception vs. Navy led to a Wake Forest touchdown ... Tied for the team lead with nine tackles at Virginia Tech (Oct. 16) ... Recorded four solo tackles at NC State (Nov. 13) ... Forced and recovered a fumble, while also making seven tackles vs. Clemson (Nov. 20) ... Tallied season-high 10 stops at Vanderbilt (Nov. 27). 2009 (Sophomore): Finished second on the team with 62 tackles ... Was 35th in the ACC in tackles per game at 5.2 ... Had a team-high 38 solo stops ... Was one of just four Deacon defenders to start all 12 games ... Tied for the team lead with eight tackles vs. Baylor in the season-opener ... Tied his season-high with eight stops against Boston College (Sept. 26) ... Led the team with seven tackles against Maryland (Oct. 10) ... Tied for the team lead with six stops against Clemson (Oct. 17) ... Suffered a concussion against Florida State (Nov. 14) but not before intercepting an E.J. Manuel pass deep in Wake territory to stop a potential Seminole score ... Recorded five or more tackles in eight games. 2008 (Redshirt Freshman): Top reserve in the secondary at safety ... Primarily a special teams player who saw action with the kickoff coverage, kickoff return and punt return squads ... Had five tackles on the season including four on special teams ... Had a pair of stops in the EagleBank Bowl win over Navy ... Saw action in all 13 games to earn his first varsity letter. 2007 (True Freshman): Redshirted the season. Chad Faulcon Montclair State (NJ) 37 S Donovan Richard South Carolina State 40 S Is one of the most talented defensive players on the Bulldog squad and a top competitor for starting duties at the “mike” linebacker position...Has outstanding speed and will be a top performer...Has been a “playmaker” for the Bulldogs since coming to SC State...Will also be looked to continue his fine play on special teams where he has made an impact each of his two seasons. 2009: Was one of the top performers on defense and a significant contributor in the linebacker rotation...Played in 11 contests and was the starter at “will” linebacker against Delaware State...Finished sixth on the team in total tackles with 56, including 26 unassisted...Also recorded five tackles for loss, three sacks and two interceptions, one of which he returned for a touchdown. 2008: Played significant snaps in all 13 Bulldog contests as a true freshman…Was ninth on the team in total tackles with 41, including 22 unassisted…Also recorded five tackles behind the line, including two sacks…Had a blocked punt against Appalachian State in the FCS playoffs, setting up a Bulldog touchdown…Was a significant contributor on special teams as well. 2007: Was redshirted as a freshman. David Teggart Connecticut 38 K. Kyle Martens Rice 41 P Rice Concluded his career Rice's career punting leader... Consensus preseason All C-USA pick.. First-team preseason All Texas College pick by Dave Campbell's Texas Football... Combined with kicker Chris Boswell to form the seventh best special teams unit in the country according to Phil Steele. 2011 First team All C-USA by league coaches for the second consecutive year... Also a first-team pick by Phil Steele and College Football News, and a second-team selection by Rivals.com... Third consecutive year as a Ray Guy Award candidate... Averaged 43.6 on a career-high 78 punts to rank second in C-USA and 18th nationally... Season average matched his 2009 mark as sixth-best total in school history...has three of the top six season marks (see chart)... 3403 yards punting rank second, just missing the school mark of 3,452 set by Dan Walters in 1983... Finished with 9,890 career punting yards which also ranks second all-time.... Averaged 50.1 on seven punts vs. Purdue, the third-best, single game mark in school history... Finished his career with three of the top five punting games in school history... Placed at least two inside the 20 in 10 of 12 games, including three games with three. Has put 14 of 78 this year inside the opponents' 10 and 25 of 78 inside the 20... Averaged 48.6 on five punts in the opener at Texas... Placed a pair of his five punts inside the Horns' 10, including one a the one-yard line. 2010 Earned All America and All C-USA honors during a spectacular junior season... Earned All America honors by the American Football Coaches Association and All C-USA honors from league coaches and Phil Steele... Second team Walter Camp All American and selected to participate in the Walter Camp Foundation's All American Weekend... One of 10 punters named as semifinalists for the 2010 Ray Guy Award by the Augusta Sports Council... Named to both SportsIllustrated.com and College Football News.com's midseason All-America teams... Led C-USA and third in the nation with a with a school-record 45.98 average on 52 punts... Just edged Steve Kidd, who averaged 45.94 in 1985... Career average of 42.7 is 1.3 yards better than previous school mark of 41.4 by Jared Scruggs... Placed 42% inside the 20 this year (22/52), 50% (11 of 22) of those have been downed at or inside the 10 and 64% of those (7 of 11) have been placed at or inside the 3.... Averaged 51 yards per punt on five kicks from inside the Rice 18... His total inside the 20 betters his previous career best of 14 in 2008 (52 punts)... Six of his 22 punts inside the 20 have led to Rice scores on the following possession after the Owls defense forced a punt or a turnover (five touchdowns, one field goal)...Recognized for the third time this year by the College Football Performance Awards for his punting, after averaging 49.8 on four kicks vs. Houston... Averaged 50 yards on six punts vs. Northwestern... Dominated in the Owls 32-31 win over North Texas, averaging 49.3 on six punts, including 50.2 on three in the second half... Had two of three in the fourth quarter downed inside the 20, including one at the two to pin UNT back and set up the Owls' winning touchdown... Averaged 45 yards in the opener against Texas, including a career-best 71 yard effort...Second-team All C-USA preseason pick by Phil Steele and a second-team selection on Dave Campbell's Texas Football All Texas College preseason squad. 2009 Named by Augusta Sports Council as a candidate for the 2009 Ray Guy Award, which honors the nation's top punter... Named to Phil Steele's Midseason All C-USA second team..Fourth in C-USA and 16th nationally with a 43.4 average... Rice season record is 45.94 by Steve Kidd in 1985... Averaged 50 yards per punt on nine kicks vs. Tulsa, the third best effort in school history... Had five boots of better than 50 yards vs. Tulsa and had 12 all year, compared with six in all of 2008 and no more than one in any game... Did not connect for better than 50 yards until the sixth game of his freshman season...Averaged 43.5 on four punts at UAB in the opener, including a 51-yarder on his first effort of the year. 2008 C-USA All-Freshman selection who averaged 38.3 yards on 51 punts for the Owls ... averaged 41.4 yards on 16 punts over his last four regular season games (663 yards) ... had three punts of at least 50 yards in the last five games and placed eight of his last 20 punts inside the 20 compared with six of his first 31 punts ... had a career-best boot of 57 yards at UTEP ... placed two of three punts vs. Army inside the 20 ... made his debut against SMU and saw his first career punt downed at the SMU two-yard line. Julian Talley Umass 82 RT/WR On Talley:Will be counted on for a good season as a top receiver in third season ... Fast receiver who will see some playing time ... Has a chance to make a serious impact ... Impressed in spring football ... Talented wideout from New Jersey. As a redshirt junior in 2010: Game-By-Game Statistics • Speedy receiver in second season as a starting wideout for the Minutemen. Leading returning receiver from 2009. • Phil Steele Preseason Second-Team All-CAA. • Second on team in receiving this season with 56 catches for 747 yards. Leads team in receiving touchdowns (6). • Fourth in the CAA in catches per game (4.7) and second in receiving yards per game (67.9). • Team's top punt returner with nine returns for 120 yards. • Has a reception in 18 games in a row. • Had five catches or more, three games in row (9/11-25). • Nine catches for 109 yards against Rhode Island (11/20). • First-career multi-touchdown game (45, 4-yd TD catches). Five catches for 81 yards vs. #2 Delaware (11/13). • Brought in five catches for 48 yards and a 7-yard touchdown vs. Maine (11/6). • Four catches for 66 yards including late 2-yard TD catch in win at #15 James Madison (10/30). Had a 43-yard catch. • First-career 100-yard receiving game with 111 on career-high eight catches vs. #10 UNH (10/23) in the Colonial Clash. Scored on a 14-yard TD reception. Also went over 1,000 yards in career receiving yards. • Three catches for 23 yards, also had four punt returns for 46 yards including career-long 32-yard return vs. #20 Richmond (10/16). • Three grabs for 69 yards including season-long 44-yarder at Towson (10/2). • Five catches for 76 yards at Stony Brook (9/25). • Career-highs of seven catches and 91 yards at #20 Michigan (9/18). Caught a 5-yard TD pass in fourth quarter. • Five catches for 64 yards as well as two punt returns for 35 yards vs. Holy Cross (9/11). • Opened year with two catches for nine yards and a punt return for 11 yards vs. #4 William & Mary (9/4). • Second on team in catches with 28 and yards with 350 yards in 11 games, four starts in 2009. As a redshirt sophomore in 2009: Game-by-Game Statistics Speedy yards in win over Northeastern (11/7) ... Three losses for 33 yards at Maine (10/31) ... Three catches for 38 yards at #1 Richmond (10/24) ... First career touchdown (on his 35th career reception) came on an 10-yard catch in win over #4 New Hampshire (10/17) ... Four receptions for 35 yards at Delaware (10/10). Two kickoff returns for 71 yards ... Three catches for 69 yards including career-long 55 yarder vs. Rhode Island (9/19) ... Set career highs with five catches for 86 yards vs. Albany (9/12) ... Team-best three catches for 22 yards at Kansas State (9/5).. 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Huckabee's Evolution Beliefs Republican presidential candidates Mike Huckabee, Sam Brownback, and Tom Tancredo raised their hands during Thursday's debate when asked if they don't believe in evolution: Huckabee, in a conference call with reporters the morning after the debate, explained how he would have responded if given a chance to elaborate on the question: "If you want to believe that you and your family came from apes, that's fine. I'll accept that," he said Friday. "I just don't happen to think that I did."Huckabee's views about his faith are sincere. Prior to his political career Huckabee was pastor of several Southern Baptist churches. He also served as president of the Arkansas Baptist State Convention. As for what should be taught in public schools, Huckabee said he wants "schools to acknowledge that there are views that are different than evolution." Huckabee downplayed the role evolution should have in the election. "Is a president going to sit in the Oval Office and really make a decision on what's being taught in a third-grade class in Dubuque, Iowa, on creation or evolution?" he said. "The answer is no." 93 comments: yeah we just magically appeared on the face of the earth by the power of an invisible guy in the sky :D I wonder can you trust such an ingorant guy like this to be the next president of the United States? Anyway Ron Paul is the real deal. He is the only constitutionalist, founding fathers style candidate. We just appeared magically on the face of the earth? Do you not find the irony in your comment? Which takes more faith, the belief that God created us or that the earth "Magically" appeared and we happened to evolve over millions of years from non-living organisms? In the end we will all find out who is right and who is wrong. I win either way. You on the other hand, do not. I wish you and your eternal salvation the best. And what about the Easter Bunny? People who have their heads up their ass and have not bothered to read any science are quick to paint evolutionary theory as'magical' but please take a look at dogs. Humans bred them for certain shapes and forms. Evolution does the same thing to all species, only not so fast and not so end-minded As to my 'Salvation', it is your devil: You go to hell Using dog breeding as an example of evolution is laughable. Breeding removes certain genes, it does not add them. You could never breed a great Dane from a chihuahua. Dog breeds came from a genetically varied common ancestor dog, probably akin to a heinz-57. Evolution presupposes the addition of genetic information. Adaptation has always been the loss of genetic information. As to salvation: Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life. Nobody goes to heaven but by Him. (paraphrase of John 14:6) i am dyslexic and pray to dog. dog breed is a valuable analogy to evolution. bacterial reproduction with a genetic change for survival with every million divisions would answer the genetic variability. About great danes and chihuahuas look at cock a poos. THey are tiny if mom is a micro poodle or almost cocker sized if mom is a cocker. It all follows the same rules from viruses to whales. I suggest those who think evolution is only a theory could jump off a building since gravity too is only a theory requiring a similar leap of faith. Faith is self fulfilling prophesy. Michael, you don't anything about evolution. Dog breeding is an example of selection for new genes. Darwin used the example of pigeon breeding to explain selection and then natural selection. You should read the Origin of Species so you can be better informed about the discussion is all about. I’m a life long Evolution supporter and frankly, believe that the debate between Creation and Evolution is about as useful as debating chocolate cake v. tennis balls. But since the war will be waged, I must caution my science-minded brethren of the risk of using dog breeding in their defense. Breeding necessitates the presence of a Breeder, which if I were a Creationist, would use to fuel my argument. Thankfully, I am not. I find the fact that any serious presidential candidate would not accept evolution as science appalling. Either the politician does not understand science or is not courageous enough to deal with the massive ignorance that is out there. If you have any doubts, take a look at the Dover decision, As to visualizing how it works, I think the most amazing display is the evolution of horses at the Museum of Natural History in New York. The reason why acceptance of evolution is important is a good test for Presidential candidates is also simple. If you don't betlieve in it, what other basic science don't you accept? Personally, I do not understand why people find evolution incompatible with religion. As the Catholic Shcurch's International Theological Commission wrote in 2002 "[A]ccording to the Catholic understanding of divine causality," the commission wrote, "true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence." Hickabee believes dinosaurs and humans roamed the earth together just 6,000 years ago. If this is the sort of half-wit that is given serious consideration for public office we're all going to need divine intervention to survive. God Created Evolution. I salute Mike Huckabee for having the courage to take a stand against you pagan evolutionists. Where were you 5 billion years ago or even 6000 thousand years ago? God designed and created all things and loves all you ignorant humans who think you have all the answers with your pseudo-science. You pseudo-scientists change your mind every time the wind blows. You can't reproduce what God through Jesus has done and you can't accurately explain much of it either! Wooh. This Jim guy is a nutcase. Evolution is backed by science and universally accepted by the science community. Creationism, isn't. Why, because you cannot apply the scientific method for it. It is merely pieces of information take from various data to try to make their model fit. Oh, and as for Jim. Prove it. Minus your book of fairy tales. I believe that Huckabee is an ape. If having faith in God makes me a nutcase then so be it. I have a BS in Biology from a major university in this country. Universally accepted is a bit strong. There are plenty of scientists out there that share my world view that acknowledges the Creator God and still hold that evolution is an unproven theory. Not all of them are going to speak out because they want to keep their jobs. As for you, truth, I feel sorry for any one that feels that the Holy Scriptures is a book of fairy tales. Also, you and your beloved scientific community whom you apparently worship haven't proven much either. Huckabee has my vote if he wins the nomination. Jim said:"I have a BS in Biology from a major university in this country" Sure you do Jim. Let me guess, Bob Jones University. Perhaps "universally accepted" is a bit strong. How about "planetarally accepted"? How you can do biology and not accept the single unifying priciple of that science is beyond me. No it's not Bob Jones. It happens to be from a large State supported University. It's a mute point as to what planet I'm from. Evolution is still a theory. I think for myself. Study history a little bit. Human beings are routinely wrong and in large numbers. I can see no fault with the scientific method as I remember it. The problem is that you have imperfect humans that are applying it. As for the Holy Scriptures, they are inspired by God and do not contradict themselves. It's our feeble attempts at times to understand all the wonderful things that God has done that is contradictory. I believe God loves all of us and has great patience with us even though we disagree. It's stubborn and intolerant people like the BOTH of you which paralyzes any real progress in this country. I bet there's more that you two could agree on that you think. Why can't people just agree to disagree and move on. ...That's a rhetorical question. The difference between "evolutionists" and "creationists" (or "intelligent-designists" or whatever) is that the creationists already know the answer: to quote a bumper sticker, "God said it and I believe it and that settles it." Evolutionists have a much harder job - every piece of evidence (fossil, biological, whatever) is a potential challenge to the theory of evolution. The evidence that organisms evolve is pretty compelling - antibiotic-resistant bacteria are available anytime for a debate! The evidence that humans evolved from "lower" life forms is also pretty substantial, but surely has lots of surprises left for us. Evolutionists are often accused of being closed-minded for not allowing "alternative explanations" into the classroom, but nothing could be more closed-minded than mandating the answer at the start and trying to adjust all information to fit that view. And that's just not science. So to me, the main difference between evolutionists and creationists is that the former are continually looking to refine their understanding, while the latter are continually looking to validate theirs. Having spent 7 years being led by someone who knew the answers without (or in spite of) any supporting information, I'm sure not eager to continue that trend. So Mike, go ahead and lead a flock of your faithful; Baptist minister is the perfect job! But we need more critical thinking from the leader of our nation. Hey anonymous. You are probably right. There is probably a lot we do agree on. I'm sure you all are pretty good folks and love our country. What do you mean by real progress? I'm with Rush, I think we have had great progress. This is still the greatest nation that has ever existed because of our love of freedom and liberty which originated with God's Law. I would like that everyone who does not believe in evolution gets last years flue shots. The virus can't evolve, so what's the point to update the vaccine? In my humble opinion, I believe God placed all the genetic material that a certain group of animals could ever possibly exhibit. I like to think of it like programing a computer because isn't genetic material basically information? It makes sense to me that HE equipped viruses with the ability to survive just like HE created in us the ability in our bodies to defend ourselves against them. I challenge all of you out there to read Genesis 1:29, Leviticus 11and Deuteronomy 14 in the Old Testament and then try that diet. I think you will find you get viral and bacterial infections less often and when you do, your immune system will be stronger to fight off the infection. GOD loves all of you out there and does not want you to be sick! Before anyone responds, I would like to point out that I am not a medical doctor and what I have written is therefore not intended as medical advice. My family and I do our best to follow it and it works for us. I do want to say this as well. I'm sorry if I came across a little bent when I first entered this little debate and I hope I did not alienate anyone. I try my best to be a sincere Christian who truely loves his neighbor. If I saw you on the street and it was obvious you needed help, I'm not going to ask you if you what your party affiliation is or what you think about evolution. I would just help you. I think what troubles us Christian Conservatives the most is the lack of acknowledgement of our Creator. This Separation of Church and State stuff has gone way too far. God has blessed our nation so much. Why would we turn our back on Him? Walk around DC and inside our federal government buildings and you see acknowledgement of GOD all over the place. It is blatantly obvious to me that the Founding Fathers were believers in God. But yet when I go to a Natural Science museum, I am supposed to tell my precious children that it all happened by chance and that is the only option I am supposed to give them? This is probably one of the biggest reasons homeschooling is growing. I'm sure most homeschoolers teach their kids both options. There needs to be more choice out there as far as education is concerned. We have competition in just about everything else. I've got to admit, I have struggled at times to understand how the science I learned in high school and college fits with what I have learned about the Bible. The result has been I think a stronger faith in God and I believe I have found answers that are as close to being correct as anyone else has come up with. For example, I believe that after the first sentence in the Bible a large expanse of time probably did happen. The account in Genesis may just be describing a re-creation of the earth after an earlier calamity during which the dinosaurs and so called "neanderthal man" were destroyed. If this is true, Noah would not have had to worry about getting dinosaurs on the ark. At some point in the ancient past the devil did rebel because evil was already present in the garden. Hey Jim, What should I tell your Hindu brothers or your Budist brothers or your Islamic brothers? Are their stories of creation any less valid then our Christain stories? Is their US citizenship in this great country any less valid then yours or mine? ChurchState is there for a reason. Even within the Christain faiths there is large diversity of beliefs. ChurchState is there so that for example the Catholics cannot impose their views on the Protestent denominations. I would think our founding fathers would agree with that. Hello Annonymous. I actually agree with you. I hear what you are saying. May be all my brothers' stories need to be heard including the Catholic way of thinking. Isn't this what education is all about? I've got the sense to realize that most of our spiritual teaching should come from home and church. My point is that evolution and big bang in the way they are taught (at least to me that is) seem to make no room for GOD at all. This is the difference I see when I walk around Washington and read all the wonderful inscriptions acknowledging GOD and then I go to a Natural Science museum and the idea of a Creator is no where to be found. I think things have gotten a little out of balance. I believe that there are probably thousands of good Christian Public school teachers who are showing the love of Christ to their students and I think that's wonderful. I think its a little silly when it they feel like its "taboo" to share their personal opinion with their students that they believe GOD created it all. I don't mean that the teacher should necessarily start giving the students a bible study. Calamity during which the dinosaurs and so called "neanderthal man" were destroyed ?? Wow. So you believe in Cretaceous neanderthals, mister biology degree from a major university ??? The thing about science is it has to work no matter which sky-fairy you believe in. Evolution works in the Hindu population as much as it does in evangelical christians. So does gravity and strong nuclear force even though those are also just "theories". Only the laziest scientist would ever appeal to the "Quetzalcoatl did it" argument. Ok, you've successfully nitpiked me. Good for you. Calamity, extinction, whatever... same result gone. You evolutionists love to preach that these "so called" pre-humans are the ancestors of Homo Sapiens but you really have no proof that they are no more than just extinct apes. As far as my BS in Biology, I've never really needed it. Due to God's grace and blessing I started my own company and became financially independent by the time I was 31. To address your comment Doc., gravity and nuclear forces are believable because they are proven. Your system of religion that you apparently worship which includes evolution has not been proven and is quite controversial. I have no problem with Science that is true. Pardon me. Nitpicked. Still not sure if that's how you spell it but I promise you they still gave me that BS in Biology back in '91. Any nutcase can memorize some facts mingled with a little nonsense and spit it back on a test. I try to use my brain for ideas not just a warehouse for facts. My wife did get a good laugh about my Neanderthal mistake. She said I should have asked my 7 year old son. By the way, where are you Christians out there? I thought someone would have helped me out with a few thoughts by now. Whether you believe in God or not is irrelevant. Evolution is fact, not theory. If we elect a president who is this stupid, we are in serious trouble. Evolution is not a fact. Science itself says that a cell can't spontaneously form. This issue shows for sure that Huckabee is a crazy fringe candidate that shouldn't be President. Any man that thinks the Earth was created 6000 years ago shouldn't be given the time of day in Presidential politics. Do we really want this man to become President? Doesn't the US already have a bad name as it is in the field of science and we're going to compound the problem by having this guy represent us? I don't think so. I can't in good conscious vote for a man who's crazy enough to think that dinosaurs fossils are some sort of conspiracy by paleontologists. It seems the only candidate with any common sense is Ron Paul. This is hardly the forum to debate the theory of evolution - there are plenty of resources out there for the intellectually inquisitive, and any thinking person can judge for themselves which arguments make more sense. Nor does arguing from authority make much of an impact - no creationist will ever be swayed by what a majority of scientists say, just as no evolutionist will give any more creedence to someon just because they have a degree in biology (and if he had a degree from Harvard, would that make any difference?). For what it's worth, I think this link has the best evidence against Huckabee's claim that he is not descended from an ape: After what I heard Rush Limbaugh say on the radio today, I think I have changed my mind about Huckabee. I got excited about Huckabee because of what his web site says. I was not aware of his record as Governor of Arkansas. I'm too busy too sit around watching news programs all the time. He may be okay as a Vice President though. Sorry Jim. Scientists dispute the theory of evolution just about as much as they dispute the idea that we live in a heliocentric solar system. Too bad christian fundamentalists never seem to learn from their mistakes. Evolution can be repeatedly proven on the microbial level, and it is widely supported by conclusive evidence regarding macro-organisms, yet evangelicals continue to attack it as if it actually has an affect on their religion. I wonder why you seem to crave reinforcement of your religious beliefs from irrelevant areas of society such as science, politics, and a supposedly secular education system. You attack Dr. Steve because his "system of religion... evolution has not been proven", but what about your own system of religion? How much proof can you offer for it? With regards to your "founding fathers" comment, there seems to be an inconsistency with your argument: our founding fathers felt so strongly about the issue that they wanted to ensure that this country was founded with a clearly defined separation of church and state, in spite of their predominantly christian religious beliefs. Perhaps this was because they studied European history and realized what a mess can be made when religion gets intermingled with politics. So I am curious... why do you feel the need to impose your own religious beliefs on others, through supposedly secular systems (ie: the public education system), especially when doing so is detrimental to science in this country? Sorry up front for the long post. I can't believe I actually read through all this but I did want to see what Huckabee actually said. Why can't there be a middle ground? The idea of a "Creator" and the "fact" of evolution are not mutually exclusive. I have no issue with believing that a "higher being" brought the universe into being. Depending on where, when and to whom you were born, that "higher being" has a lot of different names. The "higher being" could certainly have designed a system that we now see as evolution - a system that allowed living forms to evolve into the different life forms that we see on the planet now. I have a lot more faith that the record of life we see in the ground (fossils) and the virtually infinite varieties of life we see around us are the result of a system that is evolving as opposed to the view that a "creator" created every single life form on the planet in it's exact current form. I know there are fundamentalists on both sides of this. Yes, the Earth could have been "created" in six days about 6,000 years ago (although it begs the question why the "creator" would have placed fossils in the ground and allowed us to "discover" radio-carbon dating to measure their age). And yes, the universe may have appeared from no-where billions of years ago with the ingredients for life (although it begs the question about how the "no-where" came into being). The reality is that there is a huge number of people in the middle ground who don't hold either fundamentalist belief. And a huge number of people who don't understand why the Democrats and Republicans can't seem to figure out that they are alienating the vast middle ground of America with their polarizing politics. The best thing that could happen in the United States politically is for certain very wealthy and philanthropic individuals (Buffett and Gates come to mind) to take some of their dollars and use them to build the framework of a third (centrist) political party. Remove the extremists on both sides from their position of influencing the politics of the parties and tearing apart the country. Get back to government for the people - ALL the people. And yes, it matters what Huckabee thinks. He could become our president and sets direction for the country. It matters whether he has an open attitude toward science or will dismiss it due to his belief system. It's disingenious for Huckabee to state that his personal beliefs are not relevant in the election - how many of his supporters would still be following him if he converted to become a (gasp) Mormon? iF THE ONLY WAY TO GET INTO HEAVEN IS TO BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS YOUR SAVIOR, THEN WHO OR WHAT POPULATED HEAVEN BEFORE JESUS? Creationism means that you say, "I can't possibly believe that the complexity of life on the Earth could have come about on its own! I believe that it had to have been designed by some infinitely MORE complex Creator, who himself came about on his own!" I'll preface by saying I only found this blog, looking for the ridiculous quote from Huckabee... I'm certainly a proponent of evolutionary theory, by default. In fact, creationism, historically speaking, is merely a reaction to evolutionary theory. A bit of research on its origins will tell you that. And it must be noted that evolutionary theory says nothing about the origins of the universe, and yet so many of its critics bring that up. Anyway, I really wrote an adequate response to someone on the other side of the argument (a staunch evolutionist) back in 2005. As I really don't have the space, or inclination, to properly discuss the subject here, I'll point you to my response: This point is an important one and I wish people would stop misinterpreting both sides of the equation. Hey Bio Major. Learn to read. I was responding to my God being referred to as a "sky fairy". I think I was the one attacked. As far as proof, the creation speaks for itself and I worship the Creator not the creation. I admit I don't have all the answers but neither do you. How do you figure I'm trying to impose my beliefs on you? I think it is the other way around. This is why homeschooling is growing. We don't want anything to do with your secular system. Faith is what's right with this country. Any world view that does not acknowledge God is what's wrong with it. I would not want to force you to believe or dis-believe anything. What good would that do? As far as mistakes, look at the mistakes you liberals have made. Your world view just simply does not work, not even in a billion years. Merry Christmas!!! Jim, I want to apologize for my earlier post. It came out as immature and inappropriate. I did not mean for it to come across as an attack on you, your beliefs, or christianity in general, but after rereading it I realize that is how it reads. What I wanted to express is a very different point: Huckabee is running for the most powerful public office, he seems to strongly base much of his political stance on his christian religious beliefs, and he claims not to believe in evolution due to these religious beliefs. Since there is already very much controversy regarding this issue in the public school system, I am afraid of a president who might use his religious beliefs as a basis to alter the curriculum of public science instruction. (I want to say that I feel it is a different matter completely if we are discussing home-schooling). The entire situation seems to me like it may someday be looked back upon with repulsion (didn't Americans living in the 19th century sometimes justify slavery using quotes from the bible?). I have different social and religious backgrounds than the majority of my fellow Americans, and in my opinion, popular religious beliefs are all too often interjected into public matters within the US. I believe that if Huckabee has enough influence to become president and he supports weaving christian religious teachings into the public science curriculum in the US, it would come with severe disregard to science and to religious freedoms. By the way, I've always had politically conservative beliefs and used to identify with (and vote for) republican candidates. However, they have lately been relating to voters and political issues more and more through their religious beliefs, and it seems that the party itself is pushing an even more christian-oriented focus than it traditionally has in the past. Even though I've never felt I was a liberal, I will probably vote for one in the upcoming presidential election for the first time because the thought of living in a nation with such a religious influence within its state structure sounds much too similar to what it might be like to live in a country such as Iran. Hope you accept my apologies. Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas too)! Wow! Bio Major you are a good person!! The last thing I expected was an apology. I am sorry if I offended you as well. Please forgive me. I have a lot of close friends that don't agree with me either but we help each other out as much as possible and don't take our differences personal. Like I said earlier, I'm not too sure about Huckabee either. His record is somewhat questionable as Governor of Arkansas. I am now undecided about who to vote for as President. I'm not overly excited about my choices. I believe the Lord above is in control and we'll get the President we deserve. God Bless you Bio Major. Please seek the Lord. I know he loves you very much. You obviously have a lot of love in your heart or you would not have been concerned about my feelings. I would highly recommend the Life Application Study Bible if you don't already have one. They should have them at Wal-mart. I hope and pray that you and your family have a prosperous New Year! Also, get straight A's!!! How can we trust someone THIS OUT OF TOUCH with the scientific community to be president? This man REEKS of ignorance. I believe the Earth is flat, and the holocaust never happened. My ideas MUST be taught alongside the current geography/history standards! For evidence/proof of evolution in a nice, visual vehicle, see Why can't we have both God and evolution? Maybe that's how he chose to do it. I like the idea that evolution is how God chose to do it. Then a much more interesting question arises. Does God ever intervene in the process? You can have a supernatural being and evolution. Why not? Science hasn't disproved that yet. You just can't have the Christian God of the Bible and evolution. The two are mutually exclusive. Evolution is always singled out as a threat to the validity of the Bible, but it's far from being the only one. The Bible is full of things that we reject today. Christians just chose to ignore them. Evolution is a theory that would be easy to disprove if false. A single fossil in the wrong rock layer or a single DNA mis-match would do it. Evolution doesn't demand any faith at all. It just is the best explanation for what we see around us. To take that idea a step further, there might well be some kind of organising principle to the universe that is currently beyond the reach of science. Let's call that thing a deity. Since nearly all human beings have some kind of spiritual awareness, let's assume that we are all responding to that deity. Since the thousands of religions and sects and denominations are mutually incompatible, the greatest probability is that they've all got it wrong. So a God might exist. What is absolutly certain though, is that He isn't anything like the Christian God of the Bible, who is impossible on his own terms and incompatible with what we know about the world. The simplest proof that Christianity is wrong is to consider this: if God is timeless and universal, then belief in Him ought to be as well. But this is not the case. A minority of the world's most devoutly religious people are Christian, and people only become Christian when exposed to other Christians. God can't do it by Himself. A quick glance at the history of Judaism will tell you that God, or Yahweh, was invented around 4,000 BCE. He simply didn't exist before then or hadn't bothered to reveal Himself because the oldest religions date back some 70,000 years. God and evloution do not mix. The textbook description of evolution is "a completly random process that modifies the vehicle of life". Note the "completley random". This implies that no outside interactions can be involved, including creating the process of evolution. I have enjoyed reading this forum as it has been a clean discussion with little name calling/insults. Please keep it that way. Please do not bless me either, I believe in making my own luck. Actually, the "text book"--nay, scientific--definition of evolution is "the frequency of change in alleles in a given population, from one generation to the next. My comments above show precisely why people can believe in a godhead figure and still accept evolutionary theory. Is it possible anyone in our nation would vote for a man that believes the supernatural hero from a really old novel exists??? I thought the people with such silly superstitions were a part of the time when we thought the earth was flat. I understand there are "people of faith" in our country. I've driven across it and seen the sad population we hide in the middle. I've even seen the tacky bumper stickers they place on their cars. But isn't it all like being a Star Trek fan? Humiliating and obsessive at the same time, but nothing you'd base a meaningful decision on? These must be the same people that watch that awful show with bad karaoke. Jim, "the frequency of change" is something other than evolution. You are trying to say when evolution happens, not how it happens or what it is. Evolution is "a completly random process that modifies the vehicle of life". God can't fit into evolution. According to christians, God created Adam and Eve in his image, he didn't make them into his image. So evolution can't fit into christian thesim either. Whomever said that evolution is "the reduction of genes" is incorrect. Evolution may add or remove genes but it is not pureley the reduction of genes. Meldor -- My name's not "Jim." And you're wrong. I've already defined the term and if you won't bother looking it up for yourself, then we're done here. This is basic Biology, my friend (albeit, on the university level). Instead of looking up scientific terms in the dictionary (which deals with colloquialisms and common usage), try actually picking up a scientific text. If you had, I wouldn't be making these comments right now. Sorry about not adressing you by your correct name. I have bothered to look it up. You have defined something that is not evolution. Evolution is not described as "The frequencey of change". What you are saying is the how often evolution happens. Evolution is defined as "mutations in genetic information" not the frequency of genetic changes. This is not biology on a university/college level. We are disputing the definition of evolution, which I learned back in 8th grade. I would suggest reading the first chapter or two of "Defeating darwinism by opening minds" by Phillip E. Johnson. Don't bother to read past the first two chaters. This book explains why evolution and theism don't mix in the first chapter. Yes, I read the books of my opponent. Okay, you've cited your source--a retired LAW professor, who's well-known for being intellectually dishonest (cf.). Now I'll cite MY sources: For a decent article on evolution (in terms of biology), the Wikipedia entry is actually really, really, ridiculously good (and it cites an additional 174 sources, currently): The FAQ at Talk Origins has been around for a long, long time (1994), was written excluslively by scientists (mostly biologists), in an attempt to provide mainstream answers to scientific questions, and is widely accepted in the scientific community. You can read a specific entry, relevant to this discussion here: I suggest you read the entire general FAQ as well: Both of these sources are readable and intelligible. If read thoroughly, I'm certain a reasonable person will better understand evolution (in terms of biology), evolutionary theory, and science (how it operates, its methodology, etc.) in general. Instead of citing non-specialists (and eight grade biology teachers) and being intellectually dishonest, try actually going STRAIGHT TO THE SOURCE with reference to these issues. I simply suggested that you read a part of that book. I have yet to quote from this or use any knowedge from this book or Phillip E. Johnson, not that I ever would. I said that I understood the definition of evolution (and how it worked) in 8th grade, not that I was taught about evolution in 8th grade. I will look at your sources after I finish this post. Something that I still notice is that you have not accepted what the meaning/definition of evolution is. I would repeat my previous description of evolution but I don't wan't to appear closed minded by repeating the same thing over and over. After 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school and 8 years of residency and fellowship it still frightens me that the ignorant and uneducated 'Faithests' (yes I made that word up) have a chance at running the country and influencing future generations. I weep for the future of the human race. ... nothing you'd base a meaningful decision on Anonymous has hit the nail on the head. Religion occupies a fuzzy place in our collective mentality. Not reliable or 'real' enough to base any serious decisions on - hence our government, police and courts are strictly secular - and at the same time yet not quite fake enough to be fully rejected, like Santa Claus, or ghosts. I find it interesting that Tony Blair kept his religion a secret in England until he left politics. The English regard US-style expressions of religious belief with horror, and as something that has nothing to do with the serious matter of running the country. Alright, I found where you got your definition of evolution (Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, Biology, 5th ed. 1989 Worth Publishers, p.974). That description is defining what a genetic mutation is, a change in the sequence of genes. Evolution is a process of genetic mutation and natural selection. Macroscopic evolution takes millions of years to occur. Since Christians believe the earth is a mere six thousand years old, evolution can’t possibly fit into their methodology-unless their book needs another revision (mind you, the all knowing god’s work needs to be corrected, again). Besides, a deity can't manipulate genetic code. If a deity does, evolution becomes creationism and its not, its science. According to Christians, God created Adam and Eve in his image; he didn't make them into his image. Evolution and theism can't mix because changing either, just a little, invalidates both. There is no wobble room here. Just so it’s clear, I'm on evolution's side. Jake, You might want to look up "church of the flying spaghetti monster". Actually, everybody should look up the FSM (flying spaghetti monster). Meldor -- Who said anything about New Land Creationism? You're bordering a straw man argument with that presupposition. Anyway, the best way I can rebut is to repost a response to an article I made back in June of 2005. Oddly enough, it was the exact same argument and after reading it over, I'd said much of the same things I'm saying now. Either way, here it is (I've not included a link to the article I was originally responding to because it's really not that important with regards to this particular discussion): I read the above article by Eugene Volokh earlier today, and found his commentary on the evolutionism/creationism debate to be the ordinary and expected polarizing viewpoint purporting science and religion as coexistive. Though his belabored point came across to me, I am highly doubtful that most would understand the real problem here: the fact that there really is no debate between evolutionism and creationism at all. He concludes with: "Yet scientific popularizers and educators have to deal with the fact that in our society, many people are still religious, and still accept descriptive religion (at least ostensibly). If the popularizers and educators describe science as taking no stand on the existence or influence of God, and as leaving such questions to others, I think they’ll have great success; and, whether they want to or not, they will indeed further undermine descriptive religion. But if they insist, in my view unnecessarily, that the standard scientific theory does take a stand that God is not influencing the world -- and that accepting evolution as the best scientific hypothesis while seeing God’s hand in its operation is an inferior conclusion that is worthy of scientific criticism -- then they will encounter much more resistance." Though he may not be doing so on purpose, he's really just polarizing the two issues--forcing science into a box he's created with his straw man argument with regards to the "scientific standard" that evolutionary theory posits. For more on that, please read his article. I did comment directly on the Huffington Post site, however, the response itself--though slightly contingent on his article--is basically self-sufficient; and so here it is: First of all, the “standard scientific theory” with regards to evolutionary theory is not as stated above; rather, evolutionary theory is simply the frequency of change in alleles—in a given population—from one generation to the next. You’ve touched on an all too common misunderstanding of evolutionary theory—and science in general, for that matter: that somehow, not dealing with god (and in this case, we are clearly discussing the god of the Abrahamic religions) is synonymous to denying god as a potential mover or designer, and essentially, that god “had no part in this process.” Simply put, given the empirical nature of science, metaphysical things, as such, have no place in scientific theories.. Is creationism a “theory” then? Using our scientific terminology it cannot be—given, the only “evidence” of creationism lies in the Bible. And let’s try not to forget that a) the Bible is not a scientific text, b) the Bible never claims to be a scientific text, and c) the “creationism” referenced here began as a movement in the late nineteen-hundreds, following Darwin’s Origin of the Species. Instead of addressing problems with Darwin’s theory (of natural selection—now considered a mechanism of modern evolutionary synthesis), this movement immediately constructed a red herring by ignoring the premises and jumping at the seemingly abject conclusion—that there is no intelligent designer. Either way, we are talking about apples and oranges here, folks. Remember people, you can believe in the god of the Abrahamic religions, while accepting modern evolutionary synthesis. You can believe in “intelligent design.” However, you cannot be a “creationist” as referenced in the above article, and accept modern evolutionary synthesis, since this movement of creationism—commonly referred to Young Earth or New Land Creationism—was a knee-jerk reaction to early Darwinian evolutionary theory. I encourage all interested parties to take a detailed look at reputable references like Wikipedia or TalkOrigins, before perpetuating these detrimental misapplications of evolutionary theory. According to you (you are correct here), “. “ You yourself have said it. “God”—a word, a concept, an idea, a symbol of belief, etc.—cannot be introduced into scientific theory because scientific theory is bound by methodology (cf., scientific method). Scientific theory and theism can’t mix. They can not combine in any way without changing the other in a way that is still retains what the original meaning was. Yes, I can see how I am using a “straw-man argument”. It is the only course of action I have not already taken as I have already correctly defined your definitions of words and clarified the process of evolution. You've not clarified anything. You've only made the argument that much more confusing. Go back and read EVERYTHING I said. And also re-read the original argument you made that I took issue with. I stated clearly that one can believe in a "godhead figure" and still "accept evolutionary theory." You have taken that to mean fundamental Christianity (which baffles me) and have completely construed my meaning. You've still not completely accepted the actual, biological definition of evolution. But most importantly, you still miss the point: People can believe in "god" a creator--in "Intelligent Design"--and still accept science for what it is. For a reasonable person understands that science is scientific and god belief is not--nor does it claim to be. Do not deal only with fundamentals and creationists because that's not all that's out there. And what you, or I, believe or do not believe is irrelevant to this discussion. What is relevant is that many people out there strongly believe in a god creator, and still accept evolutionary theory as a credible scientific explanation concerning how things change over time. I don't know how much more simplistic I can get. What began as a simple pointing out of a hasty generalization you made, turned into a biological discussion (of which I still think you need to do a bit of reading), and now we're back to the beginning and my point is still fuzzy in your head. Really take a few moments--perhaps a few days--and re-read everything here and really delve into my sources. You might learn something about evolutionary theory and you might also learn something about the Abrahamic religions. And with that, I leave you. I can't entertain this discussion anymore. I haven't the time, nor the inclination. Best of luck. For those of you who believe that evolution is a fact and that every scientist believes it, do yourselves a favor and start actually looking at the body of scientific work disputing its validity...religion aside. Check the following link and please try to keep an open mind - there are 5 parts: I believe the Lord above is in control and we'll get the President we deserve Wow, Jim, you're right. Let's cancel the election, and determine who God wants us to have by throwing dice? Or perhaps a religious committee of church elders could decide for us? I never said that you can't believe in god and evolution. I said "God can't fit into evolution". Look who isn't reading now. God is a supernatural being. Science does not rely on and can't include supernatural beings because science relies on natural occurrences. So, if you want to include god as a mechanism for evolution, in a philosophical debate, that’s fine. But the theory of evolution is a scientific theory and science is, by definition, exclusive of the supernatural. I'm sorry if this is hard to follow, I wrote it as I watched the video. As for the Youtube videos: Part I Darwin didn’t rebel against Christianity. Nice, “Carl marks, an atheist and the originator of communism”. What does communism have to do with evolution? Nothing, I saw that attempt to associate atheism with “evil”. How the hell was evolution fundamental in the creation of communism? We have observed one form of life evolve into another. Look at pests, they become resistant to pesticides because the ones that have superior genes can survive against them. Yes, a worm could potentially turn into a superior being similar to Homo-sapiens, given billions of years, not millions. The earth is old. New rock have been forming much faster that old rocks have been staying. If I have a very old house, am I likely to have all the original material in that house? It is true that most genetic mutations are fatal. However, some of those changes are beneficial. Over time, there are enough beneficial changes to make an organism qualify as a new species when compared to its ancestors. Part II For an incomplete and very short list of common transitional form please visit. It would be more credible if this video showed these scientists contradicting themselves. Because of erosion and lack of fossilization in the first place, there are some gaps. We have enough transitional forms to accurately prove that they exist. Can we see a copy of this quote from doctor Peterson? Darwin said he had a lack of transitional forms because they had not been discovered yet, see above link. Monkeys didn’t turn into humans, monkeys and humans shared a common ancestor that turned into two distinct species. Those species eventually evolved into what they are today. I already addressed the issue of evolution with insects becoming resistant to pesticides. To clarify, those are minor changes. If you have enough minor changes you will get a noticeable macroscopic change. The “missing links that troubled Darwin” have been found. There is no misrepresentation (see “”). Please stop repeating yourself, its getting boring and becoming a waste of my time. Those “prehuman” footprints are called “Paluxy river manprints”. It was a hoax and has been disproven. For more information about this see about halfway down the page. The Homo neanderthalensis (Neanderthals) is not part of the evolutionary chain that lead to homo sapiens (humans), you are thinking of homo cromagnum (cromagnums). That “pig” AKA “Nebraska man” was a hoax The bursts in evolution are real and are not some cheap ploy to keep evolution alive. Some of these bursts were because of enviromental changes. Some examples include the oxygen rich period called the carboniferous period which was caused by the evolution of spores which enabled more plants. More plants means more oxygen, more oxygen means more animals. Another example of an evolutionary burst is when organisms could become multicellular, enabling them to become insanely more complex. What caused the video to bring this up? “lack of transitional forms”. Once again, look up. I have already coved this and recall saying not to bring this up, why am I answering the same question a third time? I’m beginning to feel like I’m on a reality show. This “instant reptile to bird” thing is bullshit. Stop looking for a “brick wall” where a reptile suddenly becomes a bird. You can find it because it evolution doesn’t work like that. “the scientific evidence for creationism is much stonger than the evidence of evolution”. I’ll cite my evidene, you site yours? As a token of good will, genetic markers caused by inactive retroviruses and. Evolution has been observed, look at the pesticide resistant pests or the evolution of a microorganism. Part III We can’t suggest that life came from outer space? Where does your god live? Certantly not in the atmosphere, I’m sure an airplane would have come near enough for pictures by now… Evidence of evolution, genetic markers caused by inactive retroviruses and I’m not sure what this “humanism” is but we have scientific evidence to support evolution. “Parents will not say anything about something taught in the classroom that disturbs them”, untrue. Lookup the “Dover trial”. See also,. Here we are again, associating atheism with the soviet union. Guess what, the soviet union isn’t the only country presenting evolution as fact. There is this country called the United States of America that does it to. Scientists don’t want creationism taught in public schools any more that preachers want evolution taught in Sunday school. “The only approach is to present all the scientific information to children and let them make up their own minds”. We do present all the scientific information to children. The government doesn’t force the children to believe in evolution either, they can make up their own minds if they want to. Creationism is not non-religious. It requires a higher being to be creationism and that higher being is god(s/es/esses). The relevant discussion is not what the definition of evolution is, it's whether or not you feel comfortable with a presidential candidate whose self described "faith" (belief without need of facts) causes him to disregard a stack of scientific facts. There is no controversy about evolution, other than what some people who don't like it stir up, and that controversy is largely confined to the US. In other industrialized nations, as in the scientific community itself, evolution is *very* widely accepted. I could footnote, but that would probably be boring, so I won't bother at this time. If a person finds a scientific theory distasteful, or in conflict with philosophical (not scientific) beliefs, that does not reduce its validity. Nor should the word "theory" be misunderstood. Unlike the colloquial definition of theory as a guess or idea, scientific theories undergo rigorous examinations, are supported by facts, and allow predictions to be made. When such predictions turn out to be true, they validate the theory. Other scientific theories include germ theory, relativity, and much of mathematics, yet we can use them to make medicines, nuclear power plants, and computers. Still, they are "only" theories. My point is that Huckabee has STATED that he puts irrational and controversial beliefs ahead of science facts. That makes me wonder if he will do the same when it comes to making important political decisions. Mr. Huckabee, should Iran be invaded as it might have nuclear weapons? Should the decision be influenced by the fact that they are inimical to Isreal, and threatn the dominance of your religious beliefs? What if your god "spoke" to you and said "nuke them first"? I can think of 3 governments which are *heavily* influenced by religious fundamentalism that the US has recently been involved with: Afghanstan (under the Taliban), Iraq (Shiites vs. Sunnis), and Iran. Other Western governments are not so influenced by religion as we in the US are, and our fascination with the religious beliefs of our candidates puzzles their citizens. If we, in the US, want to continue down the road paved by other heavily fundamentalistic nations, then we should endorse candidates with fundamental beliefs. If, instead, we want to uphold the constitution (specifically the establishment clause), then we must divorce right-wing religious influence from politics. Nicely said Jim. Reducing the question to one of whether humans came from monkeys misses a tremendous amount of what science has taught us. I believe the universe, and perhaps God are more marvelous for being 15 billion years old than for being, as creationists tell us, 6,000 years old. Science education needs to go back to the beginning of the universe with the big bang. From nothing came everything. It started with positive and negative energy, waves and particles that combined to form matter, hydrogen. Hydrogen was gathered by gravity, a mysterious force we still don’t fully understand, and formed stars. Gravity, heat and the resulting pressure fused hydrogen into helium and began the formation of all of the elements. Stars grew old, blew apart and elements were spread throughout the universe to form what we see now. Life could not have come about without the billions of year process of forming elements from basically nothing. I for one, marvel at the hand of God in all of this. “Evolution” is generally seen as the process on Earth wherein elements combined into self replicating molecules that, over billions of years either were successful at reproducing and surviving in their environment or not. The survivors found niches where they could be successful and, by natural selection, were culled to where the most successful survived and the others didn’t. Each mutation that resulted in a more successful organism carried with it the best of the “parents” and developed new and more successful adaptations. It took a very long time. The planet changed life and life changed the planet. The environment creates opportunity and life takes advantage to fill the niche. I understand the frustration of those who perceive that God is left out of science. Science deals with the measurable, the concrete. It does not disprove God to embrace science, but it does not prove God either. Faith should be arrived at in homes and churches, not schools. Whether we think the universe is 6,000 or 15,000,000,000 years old we still need to ponder the questions of faith. Evolution still doesn’t answer the question of what caused the big bang. The laws of motion, the dualistic (particle/wave) nature of energy and the forces of nature have guided the development of the universe into something that supports consciousness, in us. Consciousness, God’s or ours, is not readily explained by science. I love the metaphorical beauty I see in the Bible. I don’t expect the prophets of old to have spent their time finding literal descriptions of how the universe was created. They got what was important. A question as to how long a day was before there was a sun is pointless to faith. That we have the capacity to ponder such questions is the miracle. We have the capacity to understand what an incredible universe we live in. We are given tools to manipulate our universe. We can preserve what billions of years has made suitable for us (stewardship) or we can commit suicide as individuals or as a species. Perhaps that is what is meant by our having been created in the image of God. Jake, listen to yourself, you're the one who believes in throwing dice. Because of your unbelief, you have to explain everything by large expanses of time and chance happenings. I'll take the candidate who has sincere faith in the Almighty, thank you very much. As far as some of the rest of you, this is what you sound like. Blah. Blah. Blah. Do your brain a favor and get you a good study Bible. Jake, listen to yourself, you're the one who believes in throwing dice. Because of your unbelief, you have to explain everything by large expanses of time and chance happenings. Nonsense. I don't have to explain everything at all. I'm completely comfortable with knowing that we don't know everything. But we do know some things for certain. And we know enough to know that the Bible is a bunch of baloney written by superstitious peasants thousands of years ago. And the peasants didn't even agree with each other. There are lots of websites that list the contradictions and downright nonsense and immorality in the Bible - I won't do it here. So why on earth should intelligent people 'study' such silly fairy tales? Much less elect a person who believes in them. Have your spirituality if it comforts you, but don't pretend that some areas of well-understood science are controversial, when they're not. Wow Jake man. You are quite hostile toward Christianity. I would not chance going out in a thunderstorm if I were you. Just kidding! The Christian GOD of the Bible does exist my friend and I'm sure he loves you anyway. Lets just politely agree to disagree. You go ahead and keep worshipping your imperfect science and I will keep worshipping the perfect ONE who created you and your beloved science. Wise men still seek JESUS. If He, in his infinite wisdom, had any intention of smiting me, he would have done it by now. Of course I may burn in Hell for all eternity, but I very much doubt it. If I do, I'll be joining most of the human race. As for protection in storms, God didn't seem to care much about the religious folk of New Orleans. If there is a God, He's as likely to smite you as he is me. Actually, no one should "burn in hell". Christian's God is supposed to be "all forgiving" and should therefore not send anyone to hell. The point is, Huckabee has blatantly ignored scientific facts and has put his belief before science. This tells me that if he becomes president, he will do what is best for his ego. He won't take in all the facts and make an educated decision based on those facts. Truth: "Evolution is just a theory" another truth: so is gravity. Deal with it. I just don't understand why God and evolution can't coexist. Hey Jake. I thought you libs were blaming Katrina on Bush? You are the first one I've heard blame God for that lately. Man, I feel sorry for you. You sound like one angry, unhappy, bitter person. And Meldor, you just don't have a clue. Westcoa, I can prove gravity but you can't prove evolution. You probably also believe that alarmist global warming bull as well. I'm sorry Westcoa. I can respect the opinion that the book of Genesis may be allegorical and that if evolution is true, then God did it. But comparing evolution to gravity is not a good comparison. Well, look at me; I'm back on this channel... Oh well... Jim -- Actually, yes, it certainly is, given the fact that both are scientific theories (a "theory," scientifically speaking, is merely a collection of corresponding facts). In terms of science, both hold the same weight. We've observed certain facts that have led us to said conclusions, whether it concerns the theory of evolution, the theory of gravity, the theory of plate tectonics, the theory of quantum mechanics, etc. Wikipedia has a decent article on the scientific definition of "theory." Read it, and perhaps you'll modify your position. Jim, Katrina was just weather. I don't believe God had any influence over it, mainly because he doesn't exist. I was just wondering how you can explain your God standing back and allowing terrible things to happen to innocent and / or religious people. People who pray desperately and devoutly to him, and he still smites them. That's gotta hurt. Actually I'm a very contented person, who's happy to accept that our time on the planet is short, random and chaotic. I believe that meaning comes from making the best of it in the here and now and that makes me very calm - the opposite of angry and bitter. And of course Genesis is allegorical. Duh. So are the plays of William Shakespeare. It's fiction - they're not meant to be taken at face value. But even if you take the 'God made evolution' line, it still contradicts Christian doctrine that mankind has a special place in the world, and is made in God's image. The whole point of evolution is that we are not special - we are quite literally related to all life on earth and we are constantly changing as our climate and environment changes around us. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God" ... Psalm 53 I sure hope this verse of scripture does not apply to you. I believe that if you were in our military fighting for our right to argue and your life were in danger, then I bet the Lord Almighty (Maker of heaven and earth) is the one you would call on. I am going to pray for you Jake. I promise you God does exist. Hello Adam. Yes I've read the articles in the online encylopedia. So what. That's horse-hockey. I've stayed out of this one for a while, but here goes. As to this all knowing, loving and caring God. Where exactly is he when 4000+ servicemen and women are being killed in Iraq? Where is he when children are taken from their homes and assaulted and murdered? Or worse, when it happens in their home by someone who they trust? Where is this God when those least able to protect themselves are so brutally treated? Where is he when children starve to death every day on this earth? I call Bullsh!T and challenge any scripture quoting, bible thumping evangelist to answer these questions with responses other than "it must have been their time. or God called them home." XTC said it best in the song Dear God; , Dont know if you noticed, But your name is on a lot of quotes in this book. Us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look, And all the people that you made in your image, Still believing that junk is true. Well I know it aint and so do you, Dear god, I cant believe in, I dont believe in, I wont believe in heaven and hell. No saints, no sinners, No devil as well. No pearly gates, no thorny crown. Youre always letting us humans down. The wars you bring, the babes you drown. Those lost at sea and never found, And its the same the whole world round. The hurt I see helps to compound, That the father, son and holy ghost, Is just somebodys unholy hoax, And if youre up there youll perceive, That my hearts here upon my sleeve. If theres one thing I dont believe in... Its you, Dear god." And finally; No, we should not being electing a man who does not believe in evolution. We've had 7 years of a president who stayed true to his inane convictions and look what that has brought us. So, if you dont believe in evolution, how do you explain dinosaur bones? And the thousands of years old human-like remains that arent quite human, arent quite ape? Did God make the dinos? Dont get me wrong, I'm a christian, i believe in God, and i have enough faith in God to believe in evolution, not creationism. I believe God created the environment in which the Earth has evolved on its own. Man wrote the Bible, Man, who is imperfect and error-prone, and who has evolved over time to be what we are today. The Illusionist, hello to you, I didn't know the XTC song, but I LOVE it! Thanks for posting it here. Jim, this is also not my own material, but it's a another classic and funny riposte to Christianianity. It's an open letter to the appalling Dr Laura Schlessinger. Jim, your ridiculously lame "The fool says in his heart, "There is no God" ... Psalm 53" put me in mind of it. The point being that the Bible is full of nonsense. Why take any of it seriously when so much of it is laughable ... Here Let's be conservative and say there are 100 religions in the world all of which believe they are THE real religion. Well, that means 99 have to be wrong and only one can be right. Which one is right? My bet is all 100 are wrong! For the most part your religion and beliefs are governed by your indoctrination as a child, particularly with the biggie religions. If Jews and Muslims were born a few miles to the east or west, they would be in the "opposing" camp. Nothing magic going on here, just humans being humans. Hey Jim, if we're all 'ignorant humans', then what exactly does that make YOU? What claims do you have to enlightenment? Thank you Jim! All these scientists keep trying to use their "facts" and "reality" to justify evolution. Well guess what... I've got a book that was written 2,000 years ago by ancient people that refutes all their "evidence." Preach on! "Which takes more faith, the belief that God created us or that the earth "Magically" appeared and we happened to evolve over millions of years from non-living organisms? " I think it takes more faith to believe that science teaches that we evolved from "non-living " organisms when clearly it says we evolved from living organisms. What a moron you are! Great blog as for me. I'd like to read more about this topic. BTW look at the design I've made myself Russian escort

It sounds like Revis Island could be closed this weekend. Rich Cimini of ESPNNewYork.com reports that that “feeling around the Jets” is that Revis will miss at least one game. The injury isn’t believed to be overly serious, but the Jets surely want Revis fully healthy before testing him again. The Jets head to Miami on Sunday night in a game New York needs to win to avoid a two game deficit in the AFC East. Brandon Marshall does not seem like a fun guy to cover with a balky hamstring. If Revis sits out, the Jets could tempted to also rest him the following week against the Bills. The way miami’s O is looking right now ,let him sit and get 100%..we dont need him in this one.. How cute that he hurt it chasing down Moss after he burned him. Maybe if you go to training camp you would be looser its an interesting way to look at it. Favre misses camp is noticeably uncomfortable. Revis gets burned must be a hamstring. He’ll be back this week he just couldnt be seen after Moss facialized him and Cro amazingly covered him even better than Revis! Hamstring is the biggest BS Ive heard since whatever comes out Favres mouth As a Dolphins fan I actually want Revis to play. It is not a true test for your team if you’re not playing your rivals at full strength. If he can’t go in the Dolphins game, I would definitely keep him out of the Bills game too. Hamstring injuries linger and are the kind of injury that can worsen if not rested. They don’t need him to shut down half the field against the Bills. Edwards will shut down the whole field all by himself. If Revis sits out, the Jets could tempted to also rest him the following week against the Bills. COULD BE No need to proof read.. How do I get a job working for this site? I feel like every Rosenthal article is an Easter Egg hunt to find the obligatory spelling/grammar error(s). See if you can find the F-up in this one! Yeah, who needs training camp? Gregg, I am guessing you don’t know much about the AFC East. You can’t take anyone lightly when it’s an AFC East battle. That goes for the Bills also. They will play us harder at their home, than against anyone else. This isn’t baseball where you can sit your stars for a game to recharge, because you think it’s an easy game. Brandon Marshall sucks anyway. Revis should be the lucky one… he don’t want it with Marshall Just throw to Marshall every play with or without Revis FIRST. Marshall will have a field day against either Revis with a bum hammy/or Kyle Wilson. I think Dolphins will pummel Sanchez at their home opener Sunday Night now that they have some confidence after handing Favre and ass whooping and Vontae emerging as a stud. Dolphins Victory 20-10, and they finally will be recognized by the rest of the league as a true contender Revis is the lucky one. Now he doesnt have to get bulldozed and take a beating from Marhsall and get shown up for being the overrated hype machine he is. He’s not even the best corner in the division. Vontae Davis is. I’m not sure Moss or Welker were particularly lucky in the second half of last nights game with the Teddy P look-a-like sidelined…. Noooo, Marshall wants to face Revis. Dolphins have won 3 straight against the Jets with Revis playing, and the Patriots played worse when Revis left the game. Wish he would play. Marshall would help all the clueless jests fan realize gilligan’s island is average at best. Overhyped and overrated. What do you expect from the stinking, lousy nyj??? That sucks, Def wanted towatch Marshall manhandle Mr. Revis. Cro will do just fine against Marshall. Go ahead and say Marshall owned him back in the AFC West, but truth is anyone who plays a base Zone coverage against Marshall will be doomed. Marshall will get his usual for this season so far, but the rest of Dolphins offense will play considerably worse( if thats at all possible). Henne will be pressured, Ronnie/Ricky will be bottled up. This will be a low scoring game, as Miami’s D is serious. I have to give credit when its due, Vontae is a heck of football player. Throw in Wake, Dansby, Starks, and you got yourself a Top 5 D, very impressive. The key to this game will be if Sanchez can build off his nearly flawless performance against the Pats. I doubt he will but still think the Jets will pull this one out in a VERY close one. Can’t wait for this one!! Didn’t Vontae Davis injure himself celebrating yesterday?! LOL yeah totally afraid of that guy Boy , you’d think by reading this fanbases B.S rants on here Miami was scoring 30 points a game these 1st 2 games, NE could only muster up 14 points ,what you think we’ll hold your amenic offense too.. Dolphins will win either way. Marshall will make some plays, but it is the Miami running game that the Jets can’t stop. Miami 13 Jets 6 Wow that should be fun to watch! Kravon Revis or not, the fins will run over the jests. Fins will run right at JT and his boo boo elbow. The beast will get his catches. By the end of the season the corner everyone will be talking about is Vontae Davis. Way to over pay Jets! Why would Brandon Marshall be considered lucky? Randy Moss was completely shut down AFTER Revis left the game. “If Revis sits out, the Jets could tempted to also rest him the following week against the Bills.” Let him play and play badly…. ALL we hear are excuses from gag green anyway. Marshall will eat him up or crow which should be funny to watch. Miami will run ALL over the hapless wets per usual. 3-0 bank it! Nyjets31 says: September 20, 2010 12:18 PM The way miami’s O is looking right now ,let him sit and get 100%..we dont need him in this one.. Actually a good point. The biggest hole on the Jets will be the NT, which the Dolphins will much rather exploit that Marshall having massive day. JetFan in Miami says: September 20, 2010 1:08 PM Didn’t Vontae Davis injure himself celebrating yesterday?! LOL yeah totally afraid of that guy He did, but he’s fine, played well after that. He isn’t on Revis’s level but he’s no “slouch”. JetFaninMiami – was that a hilarious grammatica moment or what? dbess – what kind of loser posts “FIRST” in a comments thread? a miami doll-fan. GO GANG GREEN I guess you blow hole fans havent figured out that Mr. Marshall is no good if the ball doesnt get to him. If your offense is that one dimensional you need not worry about Revis…you got bigger fish to fry..(no pun intended)…and your gonna have to put up more than 14-17 points. You dont have a Wes Welker either. Cromarti can handle it……When Revis is healthy Marshall isnt going to burn him deep,nor is anyone else for that matter. See you on the field,until then,you havent earned any braggin rights. Jet fans are crazy if you think u don’t need revis. The dolphins weren’t showing anything offensivly the first two games because they are saving it for this week. The jets have nothing on game film to prepare for, so when Sunday night comes the jets are going to get hit right in the mouth. Good luck against the blitz sanchez cam wake is coming for you @JetFan in Miami Vontae Davis is more of a complete CB that anyone on your team… As far as him injuring himself, I’ll take a stinger after laying a big hit on a TE than pulling a hamstring getting burned for 6 any day means cromartie will cover him which is wut ended moss’s day n they will blitz less zone more henne will have to check down more to fasano wildcat will be in trouble this week Dolphins suck anyways. Can’t believe these chumps are saying they are “true contenders’ and Vontae Davis is the best cb in the afc east. Give me a break. Your team is a joke. Cromartie will be fine on Marshall. See you on Sunday. Cromartie is built for guys likie moss and marshall big tall lanky wrs who can’t run a solid route except a streak down the sidline.hense why welker blew him up and then cro shut moss down for the rest of the game forcing a pick and having his own. By the way cro is on course for 16 picks this season lol. Were gonna stuff you guys like we stuffed both these teams in the run and were gonna shut down ur one reciever, then force your joke QB to throw because if it wasn’t for one long pass on sheppard ( who sucks believe me I watched him all last season) your offense was pitiful you could barely win with favre trying to hand the game to you guys. Sanchez to keller all day next week and there’s nothing you can do about it. Chad Henne would have to be capable of throwing for more than 115 yds in a game for Marshall to have a big day. Fizz says: The dolphins weren’t showing anything offensivly the first two games because they are saving it for this week. this could be the single stupidest comment i’ve seen today. congratulations Fizz. GGG 17-14 Jets Dolphins shut down Favre and AP in Minnesota. I bet Sanchize an Greene give them chills. RAMROD says: COULD BE No need to proof read..How do I get a job working for this site? Proofread is one word. You’re Fired! Jets should expect trouble this week against Marshall. but lets stop the conspiracy theory that Revis is faking injury. This is a guy looking to already line up another huge payday. He is as confident as it gets and would have no fear going against Marshall if he was crazy enough to call out Moss, whos much better than Marshall is. The problem is this guy has a hamstring problem because he missed all of training camp due to being a greedy D-bag. He isnt in football shape and the hint for everyone should have been the Jets lining him up away from Boldin at the end of the Ravens game. This is what happens when you dont come to camp. The Jets probably have enough on defense anyway to win the game, but coming from a guy who has Brandon Marshall on my fantasy team, I would expect a big week out of the guy. way to go Revis. Next time spend your offseason getting ready to play instead of waiting around for a raise I wish he would play. I don’t want the Jersey Jets to have any excuses for the beatdown coming !!! Did anyone take a close look at what Revis did when Moss burned him for that TD? As he’s running into the end zone he grabs his “right” hamstring for just a second, and then as if by some crazy twist of fate, he then goes for the left one. I guess in the heat of the moment (the embarrassing one) he forgot which hammy was supposed to be injured. And the Oscar goes to… I’d be worried about the Dolphins if they had a QB that was any good. Henne sucks and Marshall will have little impact. The Dolphins are the worst 2-0 in the NFL right now. They played down to the level of the Bills in week One and the Vikings blew 3 great chances to score TD’s. Sanchez is CLEARLY the 2nd best QB in the division. Jets will spank the finns….MN beat them all over the place but the turnovers killed them again…. Who cares, what was Miami’s record vs New York last year and how many of those games did Revis miss. Doesn’t seem like he makes that big a difference to me. SSSSWWWWEEEEPPPPP! The Dolphins offense has not looked very good these first two weeks. The Jets are not the team to try to turn things around offensively on. That said, this is a division game and they are always tough no matter who plays. The defenses look very good and one of them will probably score…and that could be the difference in a low scoring game. Yes, the lack of training camp is responsible for Revis’s hammy and Favre’s looking uncomfortable in the offense, because no one who went to training camp pulled anything or is having trouble getting into a rhythm. Idiots. to all you mn fans in denial. the dolphns spanked you guys. we only needed to throw the ball 15 times to do it too. talkin about how henne sucks. what qb can put up great stats with only 15 attempts? you guys “blew it” 3 times? no our D spanked you 3 times (when your O has to go for it on 4th down 3 times in a game and doesnt convert, thats not you guys blowing it, thats you guys getting served) give me a break, anyone that watched that game knows the fins were handling it from drive one, they are the ones that almost blew it. soft serve sanchez is gonna look like a deer in headlights sunday night. 5 sacks. he may or may not nurse his knee and sit out a couple plays, or an entire half, or the entire season too Marshalll when covered by Cro last 2 years in AFC West= 9 targets, 7 catches, 74 yards, 1 TD in 4 games. He may have owned the Chargers, but not Cro. All this talk about Marshall is funny to even mention, the Jets D just dominated the most prolific offense in the history of the NFL circa 2007 that has only added talent to it since then(minus holdout Mankins), not even to mention the fact that the Jets themselves were minus Revis, Jenkins & Pace! BTW, Pace will be on the field this weekend so hold onto that ball tight Ronnie/Ricky! Even a busted clock is right twice a day. Last week was sanchez first time to be right this season. So he has one more chance. Gotta agree with Finfan68 on this one. Oh, one more thing, let’s see if Sanchez can make those throws when you actually have a pass rush to worry about. I think it will be a good game. We didn’t have a Moss or Welker or Marshall last year and it didn’t stop us from beating you do those comments are just garbage. Fireman Ed loves hog Bleedsgreen: they haven’t had to show anything. They have never trailed and they were on the road. At home it will be a different story. Henne had 3, 300 yard games last year. All when they were trailing. Just wait. It’s hard to prepare for an offense when all you have seen this year is vinilla. P.s. Henne’s record vs. The yets 2-0 “The Beast” will RULE Beavis….let him play! The Jets are not worried about Miami well how did Revis fare last year against us, not very good. Even Ted Ginn burned him and he was not even a real receiver. Imagine what Marshall is going to do to that terrible secondary, just watch the Ravens tape. Last year Miami physically beat up the Jets on that Sunday night, they went down the field and pushed the Jets around to win the game. Anyone that watched Hard Knocks saw that the Jets are an undisciplined team from their overeating coach to their no character players. Please put Cromartie (and even his 10 kids) out there on Marshall and blitz we will put up 40 points on you. Hey NewYorkSachexchange2010, Pace was on the field last year for both your loses to us wasn’t he??? Sanchez is a joke of a QB especially when he has pressure and he will see pressure on Sunday. Favre has seen everything and he threw 3 picks imagine what deer in the headlights Sanchez will do against our pressure and secondary. Cromartie is terrible, nice pickup there, hope your owner is not supporting all her illegitimate kids. The only thing Cromartie can cover is women. LOL. “Cromartie is built for guys likie moss and marshall big tall lanky wrs who can’t run a solid route except a streak down the sidline.” Obviously a loud-mouthed Jet fan who doesn’t have a real opinion on Marshall but would still like to throw out a generalization. If you think Marshall is someone who streaks down the sideline — and you’ve actually seen him play — then you don’t know how to make sense out of what you’re watching. Jets are now on the hook for a $16million + average cb for the rest of the year. Hamstring injuries only heal with weeks of rest…many weeks. “The Jets probably have enough on defense anyway to win the game” They were the #1 defense a year ago and couldn’t pull out a win. What changed? Oh yeah, the Phins replaced Ginn with Marshall. I’ll take that change any day. Forget it. Fish aren’t nearly as good as the Patriots and the Jets b*&%tch slapped them all over the Meadowlands. Fish got no offense. Realistically, there is no way Fish score over 10 pts vs. stout Jets defense and Henne may not live thru the entire game. How great will it be when Jason Taylor sacks henne on Sunday Night! Then we will hear ALL OF THE EXCUSES why the Fish lost the game. Rex predicts SWEEP of the Fish in 2010, lets get it started in our 2nd home in South Beach. wouldnt revis island be open instead of closed? I have to admit I was upset when Jason Allen was named a starter over Smith…but he has been awesome. Nolan’s defensive schemes have placed Miami players in position to make big plays…they already have 3 picks (should be 5 but two were called back via penalties away from the ball) they have forced 3 fumbles and recoverd 1 for a touchdown. They also DROPPED 2 pick-6s. The defense has put pressure on the QB also. Smith has talent but has never been seen as the sharpest knife in the drawer. I don’t care for Sapp (how does a DB get an offsides penalty to DQ an INT) and I hope Smith can play nickel on keller (height needed there). Both defenses have played very well. Miami has not thrown that much and I expect they will throw more often on Sunday…home field (finally) should help a little. One thing that I see coming against the Jets aggressive defense…Ronnie Brown will throw from the wildcat and catch them off guard for a big play or two. Great rivalry with some of the greatest games…hopefully there will be another epic battle with the Dolphins getting the win and finally getting some well earned respect. Missed you all last week bleedinggay, gang gay, and jcyets! Welcome back! It’s great to see all the delusional, inbred Jests fans out again! Now take your stupid asses back into hiding after the Fins show you how it’s done. You guys all jump up and talk trash this week about how the Fins are going to need more than 14 points to beat the YETS, but it seems to me that you only scored 9 points against a defense that wasn’t born in the 90′s! The Ravens shut you down, and the Dolphins are going to do the same. You think SanCHEESE’s game against the Ravens was ANEMIC (that’s for you nyYets31 – write it down) against Ray Lewis and the Ravens, wait until Dansby, Wake, MISI, and Odrick (if he’s healthy) get a hold of you! I can’t wait until the average IQ of this site goes back up when the Fins spank your sorry asses and all the Yets fans shut up and go back to masturbating with old Broadway Joe photos. Yeah, the same Broadway Joe that isn’t even drinking the local kool-aid on that chump filled OTHER team from NY. J – E – T – S SUCK SUCK SUCK!!!!!!! “By the way cro is on course for 16 picks this season lol.” And the Miami D is on pace to average 3 sacks and 3+ turnovers per game. “The dolphins weren’t showing anything offensivly the first two games because they are saving it for this week. this could be the single stupidest comment i’ve seen today. congratulations Fizz.” Yeah, it’s not like Miami did exactly that 2 years ago against NE or anything… (Don’t think it’s an accurate comment but certainly your comment is stupider than the parent.) I would think Jets fans would be prepared for the unexpected after last year. Miami hadn’t been racking up the points last year either but then Henne had a field day, Ginn had like his only successful bomb for a TD, the TEs and Bess moved the chains all night, and Ronnie slammed the Wildcat down your throat to end Monday night. Then when you stopped the Fins offensively and defensively, Sanchez played up to his true capabilities and gave us the game with a bit of help from that 3rd, nonexistent phase of the game known as special teams. The Fins can be a low scoring grinder, they can keep pace with a high flyer, they can let a team march up and down the field but never get in the end zone, they can be a front runner or come from behind. Wouldn’t make much of what you seen in two games. “See you on the field,until then,you havent earned any braggin rights.” Looks at last years Miami-Jets record, looks at this season’s records for both teams, wonders what the Jets have to be bragging about… Oh, and welcome back to you GayAsAss. Nice to see you’re still alive, and completely stupid. Where were you last week after that loss? All piled in a room with the rest of the self sucking Yets fan base I assume? It’s too bad the Jets section of this website doesn’t have as many readers as the Dolphin’s seems to. It’s just like living here in South Florida New Yorkers, you talk like you own the place, but you don’t really belong here. That’s why 95 runs North as well as South. “MN beat them all over the place but the turnovers killed them again….” Did you watch the game? The only thing that made it close was Miami’s fumbles in horrible field position. In the first half and into the 3rd, Miami would frequently get into good enough field position on 2nd and short so they would try to pound the middle because that’s what they like to do (demoralize and soften up a defense). They had already had success running to the edges and passing and their defense was in control, so they could elect to pound it and play field position. Even without much offense in the second half, all they had to do to win the game was regain the field position battle that the 2 fumbles very briefly put them behind on. At no point yesterday, could anyone sense any urgency from the Fins to put up 35 points … because they aren’t the Patriots. Miami fans are the lowest common denominator “You know damn well that the vikes were the best team on the field yesterday…” A team that gets inside the 25 yard line of the opponent 7 times and never scores a TD, a team that’s stopped twice on 4th and short to take control of the game, a team that needs to be given the ball on the 2.5 yard line to get into the end zone… such a team is never the best team on the field. How has nobody mentioned this juicy little nugget? Cromartie once gave up 18 catches to Brandon Marshall in one game. Yeah, Marshall will be just as lucky as Moss was in the second half yesterday. He must be on his knees thanking the Lord for his good fortune. Trash talk never put a W in the win collumn. Dolphins are going to win. At around 11:30 Sunday Night a reporter will ask JT what Henne looks like and Taylor will reply, “I have no idea”. i am going to laugh my ass off when the dolphins come out on the first series sunday night with henne in the shotgun and 4 wr on the field, and then just start airing it out every play. the look on rex ryans fat face with his horse teeth will be priceless. i love how all the jet fans talk about our offense where had 1 lucky game by sanchez and no running game this year also vontae jason and yeremiah will dominate sanchez who had 1 lucky game and henne will unleash like he did last year towards the end like 4 straghit 300yd games and ow many has sanchez had and also ive never seen henne throw for 70yds against a bad secondary so a fuc off pussies maybe marshall has been average with cromartie but he had a 18catch 160+yds and a TD but he who got sweeped last year did i see revis get burned by GINN i think so and now marshall good luck fagits This guy is averaging 6 catches, 62 yards and 0 TDs per game……and that includes one 46 yard catch…. I don’t see why the Jets should be concerned. dolfanSS thats great but the only time he saw henne was when he killed the jets on monday night 2 playoff appearances in 10 years….both losses and you dolfags keep running your mouths…..thats what is hilarious Hate to say it but the jets will win this game! the dolphins barely beat the horrid vikes after favre gift wrapped 4 TOs. for them. NO chance for fins to win. I hope the Jets and all their fans pass away. It doesn’t matter! We saw how Bouldin and Moss peed on that “Island”. So his hammy got bad!!! To the rest – keep saying that Fins will loose. Everybody was saying we can win with Vikes. @myrek2008 – Boldin (who’s last name has no u in it) wasn’t covered by Revis for a single snap in the Baltimore game, so I really don’t think you know what you’re talking about. Boldin went off because he was covered mainly by the rookie Kyle Wilson. Moss played well against Revis, but Revis already had his injured hammy going into last week, made it worse on that Moss TD, and now isn’t playing for two weeks. If that was a BS injury someone was trying to use for an excuse as to how he played, why would he simply not play against the other two division rivals? further, Randy Moss is a top 3 WR in the league right now, with a top 3 QB throwing to him. Miami doesn’t have either luxury. Cromartie shut down Moss in the second half, and he’ll do the same to Marshall. The Dolphins will lose because they won’t be able to put up numbers on offense. Sanchez is coming off a great week in which he threw 3 TD’s. and he STILL has no interceptions (while I know that Henne hasn’t thrown one either, he has only 1 TD between two games). The Dolphins defense has seen the Bills, who I wouldn’t expect to score more than 10 points against anybody, and the Vikings, who have terrible offensive line play and a QB who’s still shaking out some cobwebs. They also don’t have their #1 receiver (or a decent receiver to fill in for him). Am I impressed with their defense? Nope. The Offense? Definitely not. They don’t even have their bail-out package, Ted Ginn Jr, who single-handedly won the game for them in the Meadowlands last year, when the Jets were kicking the Dolphins @sses up and down the field on offense and defense. LT is averaging 6.3 yards per carry. Dustin Keller averages 14.2 yards per catch. Cromartie has 2 picks in 2 games. The Jets are ready to go. Everyone is saying “oh, the dolphins have their number,” well you think the Jets are gonna walk into a game against the team whose fans talk the MOST sh*t about the Jets of anybody in the NFL? Come on now. Both teams are gonna be amped, it’ll be fun to watch, and the Jets are coming out on top.

The Human Rights Campaign has created a comprehensive list of dozens of organizations that have contributed to proposition 8, please boycott the businesses on the list below. Friday, March 20, 2009 Companies to Boycott Over Prop 8! 48 comments: Local Lanscape Construction Company should be added to list of prop 8 supporters. Hiding under the name FETON RANCH DEVELOPMENT. John Phelan Glendora, CA Picture Perfect Construction, Inc. pictureperfectconstruction.com Contributor name John Phelan Occupation Contractor Employer FETON RANCH DEVELOPMENT City Glendora State or country CA ZIP 91741 Position Support Amount $250.00 Payment type Monetary Transaction date 9/4/2008 Committee name Protectmarriage.Com - Yes On 8, A Project Of California Renewal Hey, this is great, but where are the international corporations on this list? We know Pepsi is with us on this issue, but what about other big companies?? I love how you use the slogan "Stop the H8" or "No on H8", yet you have created a blacklist. It is almost comical that you fail to see the irony in the way you are choosing to fight "hate". Dearest dimwitted Shannon- If a company donated money to back a proposition to take away a woman's right to vote, I wonder if you would boycott that company. Women did not have the right to vote until 1920 in America, a right you now enjoy but never fought for in your life. The mormon and catholic churches (purposely not capitalized) have NEVER supported women's rights in any form. If your rights had been left to a popular vote, you would not be voting today. Also, please note that every time ANYONE does or says ANYTHING that these churches don't like they tell their MILLIONS of followers to boycott. We are not doing anything hateful. We want to be aware of where our money is spent. I refuse to spend my hard earned dollars to support those who think I am less than human. I'm sorry if you find that comical! The leader of the Yes on 8 campaign said that we don't have "the right" to boycott. You can read this quote for yourself in the majority of the articles from major news sources about yesterday's protests. The fact that this individual believes that we don't have the right to choose where we spend our hard-earned money gives you an immediate sense of how accurately he (and the rest of Yes on 8 supporters) understand the principles of freedom that are intrinsic to America. A boycott isn't about hate, Shannon, it's about choosing not to hand over our money to people who think an entire group of Californians are second-class citizens. It's a choice to stop FUNDING hate. How interesting that when it is your group who is boycotting, it is acceptable. But, I guarantee if I were to boycott all the gays who contributed to the No on 8 campaign, I would be labeled a bigot. Again, it is almost comical that you fail to see the hypocrisy of your arguments and actions. Seven - targeting specific people who participated in the democratic process not hateful enough for you? How about defacing places of worship? Are you going to come up with some half-baked excuse for how that is perfectly acceptable? OR how about resorting to name calling simply because someone disagrees with your opinion? Is that a good example of hate?? Shannon, you are a dolt. If you boycotted homosexuals for being homosexuals, you wouldn't be LABELED a bigot, you would BE a bigot. I refuse to give any of my money to support a company that will give my money to someone else JUST TO PASS A DISCRIMINATING BILL. Great list... now I know who to do business with. The list is a double edged sword. By the way... prop 8 passed. Marriott Hotels (including Fairfield Inns, Springhill Suites, Residence Inns, Courtyards, JW Marriott, Ritz-Carlton, and Renaissance) should be included as well. Although Bill Marriott did NOT actually donate to the campaign, he is a Mormon in good standing (meaning that he tithe to the church - thus, the money you pay at the hotel does in part end up with the church) - and although thes Fairfields, Springhills, most of the the rest are franchises, the do pay "license fees" and other money to Marriott International, which is a major contributor to Mormon-related charities, and a major employer in Utah. Far from choosing not to do business with those with whom you disagree, many gays are actively disrupting businesses with picketing, vandalism and intimidation. What's your justification for that? Alex, you are struggling to understand, so let me help you. If you read my post again, you would see where your mistake is. But, just read this one SLOWLY, so you can understand. I did not say I wanted to boycott all gays. My example only referred to boycotting those who contributed to the No on 8 campaign. See, YOUR example of boycotting all gays regardless of their involvement in Prop 8 would be considered bigoted. In fact, your example is more akin to what the GLBT community is doing right now by targeting all Mormons, regardless of their involvement in Prop 8. The post just after yours is a wonderful example of the bigotry I am referring to. You guys are going to boycott Bill Marriott, not because he contributed to the Yes on 8 campaign, or even voted Yes(since he does not live in Cali), but simply because he is a Mormon. I don't think you can get a more blaring example of bigotry than that. Is that clear enough for you, Alex? Or do I need to use smaller words? O ye hypocrites! Shannon. You're a bigot. And you obviously see gays and lesbians as less-than, or not deserving of the same rights everybody else gets. We're free to boycott, which is a perfectly acceptable method of protest. You're free to not spend your money at gay-owned businesses, or those that donated against Prop 8, *even though* gays getting married wouldn't harm you personally. This harms us personally, do you see the difference? If not, please just go elsewhere and stop posting your annoyingly obtuse comments here. S.S.L - What you fail to see or understand is that I simply disagree with you. You can call me a bigot all you want(it must make you feel better), but in so doing, you are highlighting the problem that your side fails to acknowledge. Are there some people who are Yes on 8 who hate gays and think that they are all going to hell? Absolutely. Are there lots of people(like me)who have nothing against gays, but would just like to keep the traditional definition of marriage? And do those people also believe(as I do) that gays who form a union should have all the rights that I do as a married person? ABSOLUTELY! I also don't believe that people should have premarital sex or drink alcohol. I don't hate the people that do those things, nor do I think they are going to hell. I just disagree. You can continue screaming, Lemur, but constantly yelling "Bigot!" at someone just for disagreeing with you will never advance your cause. everybody, listen up!! shannon is incapable of understanding rational, compassionate thoughts and arguments, so stop wasting your precious time and energy on her....she's nothing but a bigot and will never be able to pull her head far enough out of her own ass to see reality. let it go!! dedicate your focus toward people with loving hearts...people who are confused, not people who have no soul. And that last post is a perfect example of why you have lost the same sex marriage battle in 30 states in just 4 years. Heaven forbid you actually listen to someone who respectfully disagrees with you! Shannon - whoever you are - the reason they keep calling you slow and a bigot, and the reason you keep failing to understand, is the fact that, forgetting everything Prop 8 has to do with personal beliefs, Prop 8 is blatantly against the 14th Amendment of our United States Constitution. If you have a problem with basic civil rights, feel free to move to a country that enjoys discriminating against its own citizens. The fact that something that takes away a citizens equal rights (no, sorry, California domestic partnership laws are NOT the same as marriage, no matter how many people have brainwashed you into believing this) was allowed to be on our ballot is appalling, and you should be ashamed to call yourself an American. If you're proud of such a thing tainted by personal beliefs and bigotry to be allowed on an American voting ballot, then you, my friend, have no faith in the American way, and whether you are Christian, atheist, white, black, rich, or poor - you are still a bigot. Hey Shannon! How are you? Your family? Friends? Did you have a good week? I'm doing well, just here doing what I can to make my little voice heard. I believe everyone should be treated equally so I was against prop 8. I also believe that you can't change the way people think or feel, the only true change you can make is the changes you make in your life. So I try to treat people the way I'd like to be treated, be more tolerant and think before I speak. I've never been to a YES ON 8 website or bulletin, there is nothing I can say that will change their minds, they'll only see me as an irritant. Besides, I would rather spend my time talking to friends, hanging out with family, being with the people I love... but that's just me. Take care of yourself :) Melissa Martine Meliisa - I am doing well. Thanks! Unlike you, I had been on many No on 8 websites before the election because I always strive to understand the other person's viewpoint. But it seems as if the NO on 8 side has no desire to understand the other side. I post on here, because it takes all of 5 minutes and it's really easy to do. Unlike protesting in front on places of worship(where you will only be seen as an irritant), or roaming the streets of Los Angeles for hours and hours, stopping up traffic. Katie - As I said in my previous post, I think you should have all the rights that married couples do, just call it something different(you know, the same thing Elton John said. Is he a bigot too?). So you would then have all the same rights. And there would be no civil rights issue. See? Also, I find it a little strange that you asked me if I am proud to have voted according to my personal beliefs. Well, doesn't everyone vote according to there personal beliefs??? Shannon - you described your presence on this website the best "(where you will only be seen as an irritant)" How about we get marriage and you get civil unions, its the same thing, you are happy right? QU - maybe a little irritation is good. Isn't that what you guys are doing with all of those protests - irritating people? Actually, I think the state should only do civil unions for all people and leave marriage up to the churches. I'm disappointed in you QU. I mistakenly thought the reason you didn't delete posts that disagreed with your side was because you were open to listening to other people's viewpoints. Guess I was wrong. I understand that those on this site might feel threatened by someone who is making a valid point. I don't delete your posts because you are entitled to your opinion, just not entitled to the right to force your agenda on us and to destroy the constitution. As for being threatened by your points, that is laughable. I will ask your for the third time, how about we get marriage and you get civil unions, its the same thing straight people, why do you want special rights? QU - I don't really have an agenda, but you guys certainly do. And wouldn't trying to overturn something that the majority of the people voted for be considered forcing one's agenda? You've only asked me twice(but hey, who's counting?), and I think I answered your question pretty clearly. In fact, I am surprised that you even suggested something that goes so against your strong beliefs of everyone being equal(so in case that wasn't clear, I don't think your idea is a good one). But, I'll explain my position AGAIN. I would like to keep the traditional definition of marriage. But, if I could choose, I would make it so that marriage was not used at all as a means of determining benefits at the state or federal level. Everyone would have a civil union because that is fair and equal. Now I have a question for you. It seems that even your definition of marriage would still exclude some people. What about the asexuals that don't want to get married? Why are they discriminated against by the government(in terms of receiving tax breaks, etc) just because they don't have the desire to marry someone. In fact, marriage in general discriminates against all single people. And why? Just because they are single. How unfair! And what about polygamous relationships? What if three people love each other? Are you including them in your fight for the "basic right" to marry? Shannon - I am fine with federal civil unions only for gay and lesbian couples, but that means no marriage for heterosexual couples either. We all get civil unionized, fine. Some asexuals want to get married some don't, marriage equality is about having the right to marry the person you love or not to marry anyone if you don't want to. I also don't want single people to be lacking any benefits and yes I support people who are polyamorous and believe in group marriage if that makes people happy. It's good to see that you are at least consistent in your views. I bet you never thought you would find some common ground with a "bigot". Shannon - I don't believe I ever referred to you as a bigot. I often find common ground with people when they come up with logical ideas. QU - I know you didn't refer to me as a bigot. But just about everybody else that posted did. I did want to get back to the whole reason I posted to begin with, which was to point out that it is unfair and hateful to protest people who had nothing to do with the Prop 8 vote(like Bill Marriott). And if the roles were reversed and Prop 8 had not passed, and we had started creating blacklists and protesting those who had contributed to the NO on 8 campaign(regardless of whether they are gay or straight), you guys would be decrying us as haters and bigots. arg! enough with Shannon.. I'm compiling a list of donors in my town....if they own a business they are going to get no business from me. It's very important to keep the discussion open with all the Shanons out there. She is just as hard-headed as we are. Yelling "bigot" does nothing to encourage someone to change their mind (remember caucusing?) When Shannon says we already have civil unions and should be content with that, she should be reminded that black and white drinking fountains look just the same as well. No one is trying to change the definition of marriage. Just make it more inclusive. The slippery slope argument about polygamists and incestuous relationships is just avoiding the issue at hand, but it does show us that she equates gay relationships to these other groups. For us, it is unfathomable to punish children with gay parents by not allowing the parents to marry all because a word in the dictionary might have a wider meaning. It appears that most of the population is made up of Shannons, who are certain that they are protecting something sacred; something unchanged for millennia. But of course, marriage has been in constant change for all of that time, or maybe it hasn't... Perhaps Shannon will have to acquire a sizable dowry before any marriage on her part could be considered. She needs to look inside of herself, examine these beliefs and then decide if they really represent the good she thinks she is doing. tara-please share that list with us whenever you compile it. anon-i think the slippery slope argument is silly, marriage is the union of 2 people, so whether it is a man-woman, man-man, woman-woman, it is still two people which doesn't anymore open the door for polygamy. Prop 8 isn't a violation of anyone's equal rights. If you are a gay man, you are free to marry a woman, just like a straight man. Similarly, straight men and gay men are treated equally, in that neither can "marry" another man. That is why this isn't the same as banning interracial marriage. In that case, a black man can't marry a white woman the same as a white man - black and white men are treated differently with respect to their ability to marry white women. The black man is denied a right solely because he is black. An equal rights violation would be if straight men were allowed to marry women, but gay men were not - that would be denying the gay man equal rights based on their sexual preference. The fact that gay men don't want to marry women doesn't mean they are denied equal rights. "Far from choosing not to do business with those with whom you disagree, many gays are actively disrupting businesses with picketing, vandalism and intimidation. What's your justification for that?" If I'm being attacked, I'm going to attack back. It's called self-defense. Unfortunately the federal government does not agree with the above post. As a gay man, I have NO right to get married. If I were to marry a female, Immigrations and Customs Enforcement would define it as a fraudulent, 'sham' marriage. I found this link, and had hoped to find a neatly prepared list of companies that we could, as a group, boycott to show our displeasure with their choice and persuade them to spend their money more wisely. Instead, what I find is a board of "rants and raves" against each other. Are we fighting for the same cause? If so, let's get some organization here, and compile an accurate list of organizations that supported Prop 8..... Cal Net Technology and it's owner Zach Schuler are SUPER prop 8 supporters. Last I checked, anyone in CA could get married, as long as they followed the rules regarding marrying a member of the opposite sex. So, what right was taken away? Marriage is a religious institution…respect it for anyone with any one or get rid of it all together. Civil unions for everyone. My wife and I are considering divorce out of solidarity for our gay brothers and sisters. LOL "all men are free to marry a woman" is like passing a law that says "everyone is free to worship Jesus any way they like, but not anyone else"... it applies equally to everyone, so where's the problem? The problem is that Muslims and pagans, etc, are not free to worship Jesus without denying part of who they are. Likewise, gay men are not actually "free" to marry women without denying their sexuality. The other way to point out your fallacy goes like this: A man and a woman are each interested in a third person... one of them is allowed to marry that person and the other isn't... the only difference between them is their sex/gender. How is that not gender discrimination? How is that not exactly like your example of interracial marriage where a black man and a white man each want to marry a woman, but one can and one can't, and the only difference between them is race? Oooooh this is fun. I'm liking Shannon. He does have a point, but it's not the one that he thinks he has.... Ooooh, and BTW, where's the master-list of companies to avoid doing business with because of their anti-LGBTQ policies? I know Exxon/Mobil and Wal*Mart are on that list but, who else? Boycotts cut both ways. Everyone has access to the Gay Yellow Pages, too. I think LGBT supporters and members need to think before they get involved in an anti-hetertosexual campaign. Defending oneself against hate is not hate. It just isn't. Why in the world would I want to give $$ to people who will turn around and use it to prevent me from marrying?? There is nothing wrong with this list. As a matter of fact, thank God for it... I was at the airport a while back, and saw a book. A neatly compiled listing of all the companies that supported Focus on the Family(a very ANTI-gay organization). Now, Focus on the Family donates to many anti-gay causes...even Yes on Prop 8. With that said, those companies obviously have an agenda that they are supporting and may be contributing to other ANTI-gay causes and organizations. I didn't buy the book I saw at the airport at that time; However, I am actively pursuing a copy now. Shannon made me realize that I don't want to support people that believe in(and actively try to leagally enforce) discrimination. I have some friends that do not believe in gay equality. This doens't mean that I can't be their friend, it simply means we disagree. However, I'm certainly not going to give them money that they will use to support a cause that discriminates against me. I don't hate my friend,...I just love me enough to fight for what I believe in. Besides, I have to right to spend my money where-ever I choose. So, I believe the best thing to do is go to the source. If corp A donates to ORG B, and ORG B supports CAUSE C(who is historically anti-gay), then don't shop with CORP A or ORG B. Those places are all the sources of funding. It makes sense. And Shannon, please understand that we(a majority of us anyway) don't hate these places, we just have to support ourselves and protect ourselves from those out to hurt us(like Prop 8). I'm not going to post again, I just wanted to sound out my thought son the matter and this is what it is. Best wishes, BW getting back to the list itself: I'm amazed at how many bigot dentists there are... Just re-hashing this thread for those who haven't seen it. If you have explain to someone that there is a difference between having an open dialogue about marriage equality AND taking rights away from people, that person is not worth your time. Let's back to this: No gay money for antigay bigots. Thanks, QU for posting this list and any updates. can't we all start referring to it as "civil marriage" (The catholic church came up with the term, btw) to make the point clearer? When I was settled and could choose I did business only with gay owned/friendly businesses in NOLA; it was not some social statement, it was just a feeling of being comfortable and able to do business without being snubbed or slighted while doing things I had to. Whenever I found this to not be the case, as in overhearing the owner of the only two laundries in the Quarter refer to us as fags, I took my business elsewhere. [Yes I took my laundry out of his dryers and left, the ferry ran on the hour and I didn't have this problem across the river.] But the main reason I felt obligated to do strictly gay business is for the same reason I feel we should all do business with small businesses; support of those trying to make it just like we are. A multi-national corporation's board doesn't give a D about the loss of one customer; however, a small or gay business usually does--especially a regular customer--because it does impact on their bottom line. Myself and about a dozen of my fellow workers even started making a weekly group trip across the river for a laundry without attitude and even closed a couple of smaller bigot shops by refusing to do business with them. You know the axiom: "Telephone, telegraph, tell a queen" and once it was out the majority (read this as gay) of the Quarter's residents quit doing business there. I do not apologise for these actions anymore than I would have someone apologise for the Montgomery bus boycott. It is my money and I do have the right to chose. I feel that if we all were more "selective" in our choices we would have more friendly choices available. After all is said and done: 1) someone will run a laundry, grocer, clothier, etc. no matter what--they want to be successful. 2) If their personal opinions and actions costs them their business--to bad. 3) when they lose that business due to those actions someone--hopefully with a more accepting and friendly attitude--will open a replacement for the failed business. Just simple economics; You either chose or lose. You chose to be treated less important to a business or you chose to not go back and let it be known (to all around you) that THIS is the reason you chose NOT to do business there.

At Least Her Avatar Doesn't Smoke Anti-smoking activist Stanton Glantz thought Avatar was "a great movie," except for the one detail that moved him to launch a publicity campaign against it: Grace Augustine, the environmental scientist played by Sigourney Weaver, has a cigarette habit. "This is like someone just put a bunch of plutonium in the water supply," Glantz tells The New York Times, with his usual sense of proportion. In addition to rousing the ire of Glantz's Smoke Free Movies project, Avatar, which is rated PG-13, earned a "black lung" from Scenesmoking.org. In response, director James Cameron says he considers smoking "a filthy habit" and does not view Weaver's character as "an aspirational role model" for teenagers:. Cameron is a bit too defensive, I think, but he is right to reject the notion that art should not only be didactic but that it should impart the lessons endorsed by the reigning ideology—in this case, "public health," which elevates the minimization of morbidity and mortality above all other values. The expectation that everyone who is not in the pocket of Big Tobacco will toe the official line is one of the creepiest aspects of the contemporary anti-smoking movement, as exemplified by Glantz. I criticized the campaign for smoke-free movies in a 2003 column and discussed Glantz's wild claims about the impact of cinematic smoking in a 2005 column. Last month Peter Suderman raised some non-tobacco-related objections to. Anti-smoking activist Stanton Glantz thought Avatar was "a great movie," except for the one detail that moved him to launch a publicity campaign against it: Grace Augustine, the environmental scientist played by Sigourney Weaver, has a cigarette habit. Ok, so the movie contained all the leftist cliches possible except vegetarianism AND antismoking. Well, two out of 1,000 ain't bad. LOL: James Cameron’s Avatar is Disney’s Pochontas: Pocahontas is way better as it does not end happily ever after. It's only a movie. It's only a movie. It's only a movie. It's only a movie. It's only a movie. It's only a movie. It's only a movie. It's only a movie. It's only a movie. Exactly, as long as you enjoy it that's all that matters. For me it was fun. Yep. Piss-poor story and characters, little more than "Indians in Space." But one helluva spectacular ride. Has anyone suggested yet to Stanton Glantz to go stick his head up his ass? Like telling the Pope to turn Catholic, JW. everyone who is not in the pocket of Big Tobacco will toe the official line This phrase seems familiar to me, but not quite right somehow... Actually, meine Dame, "toe the line" is the correct spelling of that idiom. It's not "tow the line," if that's what you were thinking. It's actually "tow the lion". No dude, it's "tow the lion". Jinx! Roar, someone called? +1. I like that toe the line becomes Tow the Lion as in pull a large hairy beast which now becomes a large hairy beast named Tow. Whoa, thanks for explaining that difficult concept! Buy me a coke? "Tao the lime"...you mean I've been saying it wrong all these years? Yeah, I was referring to the 2008(?) H&R meme. Soon it will be objectionable for anyone in the movies or TV to eat fatty foods. "Man vs. Food" beware! God, I wish that was far-fetched. We live in a time in which satire has become impossible. Why stop there? The use of fat actors should be banned. After all, they didn't get fat from exercising. I look forward to the re-re-re-release of Avatar, where the cigarettes will be replaced by walkie-talkies. And the entire cast will be replaced by Wookies. No ewoks? Bummer. Chris Dodd (D-Wall Street Banksters) is not running for re-election this year, he has announced. Unfortunately, that might make it more difficult for Peter Schiff to win the general election, should he take the Republican primary. Richard Blumenthal, the Connecticut attorney general, says he will run on the Democratic ticket, and being that Connecticut votes heavily Democratic, it will be tough for Peter. Furthermore, the only Republicans that have come from Connecticut in the past few decades have been hardcore statists, which means that there is almost no constituency for liberty in that state. I wish Peter the best, but the hill has become a bit more steep for him. There's already a thread about that. In addition to rousing the ire of Glantz's Smoke Free Movies project, Avatar, which is rated PG-13, earned a "black lung" from smokesense.org. If the coal miners from the 1940s were alive to read that, they'd be rolling in their graves. They'd clawing at the lids to their coffins. There was mining in the movie, too. Well, potential mining at least. To respond with anything more hedged than "See this ass, bitches? Eat it," is to "endorse the reigning ideology" that a world of official concerns and issues, minutely and endlessly addressed, at all times, in all things, by all, always, is what constitutes society. My comment upon seeing the movie was that it was like StarCraft invaded a fantasy role-playing MMPORG. The human evil-space-militarists were obviously just as much their own kind of fantasy universe as the Pandorans. They just came from a different combat commando FPS universe than a MMPORG. The whole gainan enviro-freak thing is not serious at all. It's the story line to a video game. The real meaning of the film is about losing yourself in alternate realities created by fantasy gaming. They're fucking flying dragons for fuck sake, people. That's a dead giveaway. Also, aren't the Na'vi a little too much like night elves? yeah, they are very night-elfish. But there aren't any Orcs or Mideaval humans involved, so I couldn't say it was WarCraft III. I should add... Weaver smokes because that's just what the characters in combat-commando-scifi computer games DO. They aren't futuristic Americans, they're the Terrans from StarCraft. Or rather, they are futuristic Americans as envisioned by combat FPS video games of the past decade. But apparently the "Americans" in the film are complete psychotic morons. And the film pretty much revels in their grizzly deaths. The whole thing looks like a liberal revenge fantasy against the evil military industrial complex. Snuffatar Dude, that's because the Terrans in StarCraft, and pretty much every other futuristic combat commando game are complete psychotic morons. You're entirely missing my point. They are portrayed that way because they are video game characters lifted out of the whole sci-fi combat FPS genre. That's the style. That is a crazy premise to make a movie. The chances of any individual unit in starcraft surviving the scenario is just above zero kelvin. They are just mindless cannon fodder. Fun to send out to kill shit with, but not too interesting to watch on screen. And yet the film has made over a billion dollars already. Granted, these are 2009/2010 dollars, so that's really like forty bucks. But that's still not bad. Is that world wide? It has made 367 in the US. It is not surprising it is doing well overseas. Simple dialog, big graphics, and is basically a US soldier snuff film. I'm really surprised Blizzard hasn't sued Cameron for ripping them off. It's obvious that Avatar is space marines vs. night elves. Blizzard has to be careful, otherwise Games Workshop will sue them for stealing the Space Marines in the 1st place. And the heinlein estate will sue them for stealing the powered body armor idea from Starship Troopers. I don't know that it's fair to paint Starcraft with the same message brush as Elves in Space. Yeah, the Terrans are rednecks, and yeah the Space Marines are often technologically "rehabilitated" lunatics and criminals. But it was the Protoss who started the game off by eradicating whole Terran colonies -- not for crimes against the environment or imperialism or whatever; just because there were Zerg on their planets. If there's a message about the evil of "collateral damage" thinking, then it's the wise benevolent aliens that are the villains, not the Space Hicks. (Not to mention the wise benevolent aliens live in a caste-based society and are governed by a rigid, dogmatic quasi-theocratic ideology). The Terran campaign starts out as a revolution against a despotic government, but ends with the leader of the revolution betraying his close friends, allying with opportunistic members of the despotic government, seizing absolute power and implementing something even worse than what came before. The Terran campaign's message is about the dark side of hope and change. The "good guys" in the Protoss campaign, meanwhile, are really the Dark Templars and the Protoss that end up trying to reconcile with them. The Dark Templars were expelled from Protoss society because they rejected the new teachings for fear they would lose their individuality. The antagonistic humans in the expansion are basically a libertarian's dystopian view of the future UN -- from starcraft.wikia.com: "The United Powers League... succeeded the defunct United Nations and took on the mantle as the defender of humanity... The UPL sought to enforce conformity in the name of "enlightened socialism". Fascist tactics destroyed ethnic separation and racism. English was imposed as the primary language while other languages were banned. Unitariate Commissions began banning religions in 2231[2] and religion fell under an official ban... While not a religious organization, the UPL embraced the philosophy of "the divinity of mankind", scholars arguing that genetic alteration, cyber technology and the use of psychoactive drugs led to the degeneration of the human species... which led to launch of Project Purification... a campaign of mass genocide in which over 400 million people were eradicated." Does the evil of the UPL (later UED) sound more like jingoistic hicks, or Progressive Intellectuals with Big Ideas about the Greater Good? Fact is, the Space Marines are the least of three evils -- Raynor is essentially the everyman hero whose changing alliances (from colonist to revolution to Tassadar's Protoss to Zeratul's dark templars) are supposed to indicate the current "good guys". And the good guys are usually good because they're honorable and individualist in their ethics. Hell, even Kerrigan is a magnificent bastard(ess) because of her vaguely Byronic personality. The bad guys, the hive-mind Zerg, the dogmatic Enclave, the eugenic UED, the despotic Confederacy and Terran Dominion, are all hierarchical, strongly governed, and/or collectivist entities (the irony of the player essentially being an ur-dictator in all campaigns notwithstanding). Starcraft is about as close to a libertarian message game as we can get (no, Bioshock doesn't count). Hey, all I was trying to say is that the behavior of the humans in Avatar are representative of sci-fi space militarists in all sorts of other video games of the past decade. StarCraft being the most obvious. Powered body armor included. Considering that most Americans (and probably an even greater percentage of international moviegoers) have never heard of StarCraft, I don't think that's the intended message, or the one that will be received. Korea on the other hand.... Okay, well pick scifi combat commando game of choice. Halo 3 maybe? An unfortunate collision of high fantasy tropes and Space Marines sounds more like Warhammer 40k (although technically Starcraft ripped off Warhammer, so...) Can we get a Spoiler Alert here? Now I'm totally not going to be surprised when I see Weaver light one up. Its a sled. Cameron is no hack like Welles. I saw that coming a mile away. Its a sled. Neatly executed. It took me several seconds to get that. Cute. Seriously, there shouldn't be spoiler alerts for Avatar. Nothing in there will surprise you. Nothing. But it will delight the hell out of the kid in you. Let me out! Let me out! /muffled screams. I hate the kid in me. He was gristly. He was unpleasant to eat? I'm willing to believe that. That was your pancreas, Sug. :::shakes head::: When I was a kid I would have rooted for the stupid little blue bastards to be killed. I doubt Avatar will make the kid in my smile. Your last name is McCain, isn't it? Reminds me of my childhood reaction to Smurfs. Maybe I wasn't typical though -- I did bite off my sister's stuffed bunny's ears after watching Watership Down. Oh John, they blow lots and lots of things up. Things go boom! Filthy Critic gave the review that's keeping me out of the theater: "I heart Ferngully" I never saw Ferngully as a kid, and I'm not interested now. I had to watch fern gully in elemetary school... it was part of me Massachusetts progressive education along with the late 80s -early 90's experiement with "whole language." Looking back on elementary school i now realize how much of it was green propeganda from Earth Day being mad ea big event to science class being dominated by the water cycle and polution to "diversity" being taught as a virtue (keep in mind diversity only applied to the color of your skin not diversity of though or the individual) In retrospect, my late 80s-early 90s elementary education was definitely all about environmental responsibility. Reduce, Reuse, and Recycle was our pledge of allegiance. Is that like Stop, Drop, and Roll? What I got out of FernGully: a new word "bodacious" and weirdly thinking Tim Curry as black goo was somehow sexy. Snape kills Dumbledore Yay! "which again is a negative comment about people in our real world living too much in their avatars, meaning online and in video games...." But the main character, the good guy, becomes an avatar forever. How is that a "negative comment" on living too much as an avatar? Cameron is obviously backtracking here, all for the sake of seeming PC about smoking. Fuck Glantz, fuck Cameron, fuck PC Hollywood. Yes, that's interesting. I think cameron is being a bit toungue-in-cheek about it. But you know the main character is a guy in a hweelchair paralyzed, who is able to walk again through his avatar. I don't think it's possible to be tongue-in-cheek about a movie that is an amalgamation of just about every crowd-pleasing blockbuster ever made. Another reason why this movie is retarded: They have technology advanced enough to send people light years through space to live through avatars but they can even treat paralysis with anything more than a wheelchair? They had a treatment but it was too expensive. Apparently, Obamacare never got through. Because of capitalism and corporations of course. No heller it is BECAUSE Obamacare got through... you know the rationing and death panels were in effect. Ummm no, in the Avatar universe there would be no Obamacare because humanity is taken over by evil capitalism. Only unobtainium stolen from the peaceful natives can pay for his expensive medical operation back home on Earth(tm). "Fuck Glantz" That's glans. Thanks for the coerrection. And none of the bad guys had avatars, either. Cameron is definitely backtracking, but it's probably due more to the criticism of Avatar as a thinly-veiled leftist screed than to the smoking concerns. But the main character, the good guy, becomes an avatar forever. Wow, there's no way I would have guessed that twist ending from the random portions of the trailer that I've seen. The movie is ruined for me now. Good. I just saved you $18-$10, a few hours, and a headache from watching 3D stuff fly at you. Also, I saved you from watching a movie you've already see before, except in little bits and pieces of other, orginal movies. Yeah, he's not technically an avatar at the end -- he's fully Na'vi, with no machine intermediaries between his human body and his Na'vi body. Though I'm wondering about several things related to that [SPOILERS AHEAD!]...how did the Na'vi know how to transfer the spirit from a human body into a Na'vi avatar body, when avatars were unknown to them until the humans came (and given their relations with humans, it's doubtful they would have wanted to do this before). Also, how are the humans who were permitted to stay on Pandora going to keep supplied with human-edible food and oxygen, which the Na'vi do not have the technology to produce? ::cracks knuckles:: Well, Tulpa, the Tree of Life, as with every other living thing on the planet of Pandora, is connected through electric impulses. From my primitive understanding of casting human brains into avatar bodies, I believe the electric signals of the brain constitute that brain (and therefore the personhood of the human-avatar in question). That packet of electric signals must be constantly sent to the avatar in order to keep the connection going. When hotTerminatorGuy is at the Tree of Life (the nerve center of all electric signals, I presume), it's tendrils (also full of electric impulses) fully captured the electric brain fully and imprinted it into the Na'vi body. /BS I don’t believe in the dogmatic idea that no one in a movie should smoke. Movies should reflect reality. Spoken without even a hint of irony. REFLECT reality. Like the image of the sky in an oil streaked puddle. Movies should reflect the reality of blue-skinned aliens on beautiful, Gaia-esque planets. I find it somewhat amusing that a movie that contains some of the most obvious racist colonial trope as this movie is liked at all by the left. I guess the enviornmental message dwarfs the fact that the blue kitties are completely lost without the help of one good white male. Oh and the smoking is bad too I guess. Personally I think its a movie with neat effects and a juvenile story line. Which is good enough for entertainment I enjoyed my time in the theater. However, the left love to look "deeper" into these things, so its kind of fun to not see them look deeper to the obvious problem with this film. "the blue kitties are completely lost without the help of one good white male." That is pretty much how lefties see the world and minorities in particular. Yeah, I noticed that too. The one white male hero arrives to save the day, flying the biggest fucking dragon of all, thereby fulfilling tribal prophecy. Whereupon he is worshipped practically as a God. People, this is *exactly* the narrative of a fantasy role playing game. It's so entirely superficial I can't see how anyone takes it seriously, in either a positive or negative way. That is a good point. And pretty pathetic statement about the movie. Video games can get away with lame or ridiculous plots because you are playing them as opposed to watching them. A movie with a video game plot is pretty low. The movie is called 'Avatar' for a reason. Because it's about video games. The main character displaces his personality into an alternate body in a fantasy universe. They fly dragons and ride dinosaurs. The humans have giant steel powered body armor suits and fly space ships. Like I said, it's as if StarCraft invaded the Night Elves home town. Or some equivalent fantasy RPG universe. It is even lame for the video game. No one would play a video game like that and chose to play the blue things. You would play the humans and slaughter the blue things. What? The blue things get to fly dragons and mind-meld with a tree. That sounds like WAY more fun. To each his own, but I would rather hunt varmints. That's not a fair characterization. [SPOILERS AHEAD!] The "blue kitties" saved the white male's life the first night in the forest, and only after they had taught him their peace-loving, harmonious-with-nature ways was he able to find the inner strength to fight against the eeeeevil humans. A blue one also saved him at the end. yeah, but it's still about the white mans mental journey. The blue kitties are never expected to expand their minds and learn to understand the ways and culture of the white people. they are assumed to be too primitive to grasp the concept that the other side might have something of value to teach them too. Another reason why Pocahontas is the better movie, even though the two are similar. The actual member of the native tribe saves the day. I think there's a valid concern here. Children watching Avatar in 3D are going to see Ripley seemingly puffing on a cig right next to them in the theater. And we all know that virtual secondhand smoke is exactly as dangerous as the real thing. Win And we all know that virtual secondhand smoke is exactly as dangerous as the real thing. Actually this is true. "I find it somewhat amusing that a movie that contains some of the most obvious racist colonial trope as this movie is liked at all by the left." The soft speakers on NPR this morning called it the most derivative unoriginal movie they had ever seen, and warned that it didn't really say or mean anything. When you make a liberal revenge fantasy and have lost NPR. When you make a liberal revenge fantasy and have lost NPR. Posted twice, but still a sentence fragment. That's just because they havn't played enough video games to recognize it as one of them. I think we've all got your point about video games by now Hazel. Really. What I don't get is how Cameron could have spent 15 years of his life trying to get such an obviously unoriginal and stupid movie made. This movie looks like something the studios threw together with six different screen writers in a few months and then foisted on the public not a fifteen year labor of love by an allegedly serious director. C'mon. I know its not Shakespheare but cut us some slack. I don't think it was the script that took 15 years -- it was piecing together the visuals and the equipment necessary to put them on screen. True enough. But you would think at some point during those 15 years Cameron would have tried to fix a few of the holes in the plot. Mothers are always the last to see the flaws in their children. He only added the plot because the executives kept bitching. The first draft of the movie was called "Three Hours of Fucking Awesome CGI Special Effects in Space (in 3D!!!)". It just so happened that Pocahontas was the last thing he had watched, so... It was Dances with Smurfs, in 3-D. Pocahantas Dances with Smurfs, in 3D Glantz's textbook is pretty good. He seems to be pretty much a wanker though. Très bay area. It should be noted that there was MUCH more to the movie, but it was cut to fit the time alloted. It should be noted that there was MUCH more to the movie, but it was cut so that future DVD releases can be used to milk the "director's cut" market. Fixed it for you. Oh is that it? I guess all the morally complex, interesting and unique angels to the story took too long to develop so there was only enough time for the simple, trite, and predictable stuff. I think you give Cameron too much credit. If there were interesting and unique angles to the story, why not put them in in the first place? sarcasm John's head In his defense, I meant my sarcastic response to be to Kroneborge's post, not John's reply to Kroneborge's post, but somehow I got hit the wrong one which made it kind of confusing. Damn threaded comments! How would you know this? Read about it in a Cameron interview. He said when he first wrote the script it was basically a novel, and he had to cut it down to get it to an acceptable movie length. One wonders why he didn't go the trilogy route then. Of course, it's quite possible that the stuff that got cut was just as trite and worthless as the stuff that made it into the film. "If it’s O.K. for people to lie, cheat, steal and kill in PG-13 movies, why impose an inconsistent morality when it comes to smoking?" Ugh. I understand what he's saying, but I hate the implication that smoking is immoral. Just because something's unhealthy doesn't mean it's "wrong," per se. It happened when the definition of immoral became "things I don't like." Hey, I like that definition. It makes the left and most government actions immoral. Of course, I can usually give a more reasoned explanation than "I don't like it". "This is like someone just put a bunch of plutonium in the water supply," Glantz tells The New York Times cowabunga, dude! Cameron's fifteen years was taken up mostly by a) playing, and b) inventing and developing new technology & techniques to allow him to even get his (lame) story to the screen at all. I definitely agree that the film's story is wonky, but it is the most astoundingly beautiful film I've ever seen - and the absolute best motion stereography I've seen. Hiro Protagonist is not amused. Another story full of leftist tripe. But less enjoyable. People always have wondered what kind of movie Ed Wood would have made if he had been given infinite resources. Well, now we know. Except Ed Wood's version would have given Jake Sully a female avatar. Wearing a pink angora sweater. For me there is a disconnect between population control nuts also being smoking nazis. The anti-tobacco hype offered by liars like Henry Waxman has just about driven me to the point of believing cigarettes must actually be good for you. Yes. And the anti-smoking ads before movies make me wish I was cool enough to smoke. Fe'ces. LOL: James Cameron’s Avatar is Disney’s Pochontas: Too funny! Sigourney smoking was one of the few plot elements I give Cameron props for. Takes balls these days to make protagonists smokers in movies. As far as everything else, I wish egotistical directors like Cameron and Lucas would focus on their groundbreaking technology and let actual writers do the writing. But I agree with A.G. Pym above. The plot was kind of beside the point. Which is why the movie will be forgotten in a matter of months. The technology will progress and become more widely used and Avatar won't look so spectacular to future movie goers. It will just be a cheap looking movie with a dumb plot. Seriously, who watches Who Framed Roger Rabbit or The Abyss anymore? I disagree. I think Avatar is more groundbreaking like the Matrix (though not quite as good). I think it will change the way movies are made for a long time. Plus, I just enjoyed it. Predicatable story, sure. But that means my head won't hurt from knew thoughts, lol Certainly the Matrix proves you don't have to have a coherent plot to be influential. Hey, the Matrix was coherent. Very Nietzscheian. Plus it gave me hope that the real world wasn't actually run by liberals, but by human-harvesting machines. The difference being? Actually, I would call the Republicans human-harvesting machines. There was a meeting of them here a month ago and all the couples wanted separate beds (NO JOKE). "Who Framed Roger Rabbit or The Abyss anymore?" Tony. Sigourney smoking was one of the few plot elements I give Cameron props for. Character element not plot element. If her smoking was a plot element she would have used a zipo to kill an enemy or stuck a lit cigarette in a someone eye or she would have gotten cancer...anyway you get the idea. Bitter babes who smoke, gotta love em Seriously, where did I come from? Kinda snuck up on everybody, yeah? And vomited. Yeah, Cameron could've just put me at the end. Nobody would've noticed. I would've been awesome for the final battle scene! Once again...Avatar is not a left wing movie with left wing themes. Wrong. It is anti-capitalism, anti-corporations, anti-war, and environmentalist. Any left wing themes missing? Just vegetarianism - oh, and (getting back to the article) anti-smoking zealotry. Queers. Wrong it is pro property rights pro free labor markets and pro liberty and pro religion informed morality and pro gun rights and pro local government. plus we got the smoking example. You need to stop reading the nut jobs at "Big Hollywood" without a critical eye. oh yeah the story of the ex-marine is very pro-individual. Also the sexual liberty of the his love interest was as well. Oh yeah i forgot anti-authoritarian, and pro-meritocracy. Since I didn't see any actual governments in this movie, just a corporation, I hesitate to call it anti-authority. Meritocracy? Where are you pulling these out of? Oh I know, your ass. Dude, just because there is a hero in the story does not mean the movie is individualist. Sexual liberty (bi-racial/bi-cultural in the movie) is a left wing theme. Good job proving my point. Sexual liberty (bi-racial/bi-cultural in the movie) is a left wing theme. WTF? You sound like an idiot, so please prove your point. Sexual liberty, like any liberty, is an individualist and freedom-loving theme. You might as well say sexual illiberty is a right-wing theme. I would say both sides consider only some sexual events to be correct. "pro property rights pro free labor markets and pro liberty and pro religion informed morality and pro gun rights and pro local government" Could you site any real examples of these views actually being fed to the audience? The destruction of the home tree was not about property rights, it was about the destruction of nature for money. Just because you one side using force on other side doesn't mean that there is any pro-liberty message here either. It was definitely pro-spiritualism, but not pro-morality-based-on-religion. And definitely not pro-local government. The pandorans didn't have govs, just a chief and priestess. The smoking doesn't represent any kind of pro-smoking message. Good job, buddy. You sure convinced me there are no left wing themes in this movie. hmm, didn't seem to be anti war, at least not with that much violence in it. The violence was initiated by the eeeeevil capitalist planetkilling humans. The smurfs were just defending themselves. So it supports a strong planetary defense. Also movies I see at movie theaters should have no smoking in them for the simple reason that seeing someone smoke makes me want to smoke. Which, being unable to smoke in a theater, hurts the overall viewing experience. This. I don't see how anyone can stand it. I think the same effect is the purpose of anti-smoking commercials. And no beer either unless you're at one of those fancy theaters. Home theater, people. You know what I really don't get about Avatar? You spend $400 million on amazing special effects, yet the subtitles are in cheap MS Word Papyrus font. James Cameron stole my script! Speaking of movies, I watched almost the whole trailer for the Book of Eli thinking "Wow, that was quick. I wasn't expecting to see a Fallout 3 movie for at least another year or two." MIND MELD! Regarding that NPR comment posted above, I wonder if the Left Intelligentsia did not find the caricatures of all those lefty beliefs sort of insulting. I mean, it almost seemed like James Cameron was mocking the left through an obvious exaggeration of all lefty ideas about capitalists and the environment. Mind you, no capitalists in this Universe would have ever EVER freighted haul trucks, mining equipment, habitats, materials, food and people to a distant and harsh planet just to obtain a few rocks. Supposedly the rocks contained a very "valuable" mineral - what, Cameron never heard of substitutions? Doesn't Cameron know that the REAL money comes from selling cheap stuff in great quantities? Why does he think people use OIL today instead of WHALE oil, even when whale oil is more "valuable"? Idiot. Yeah, I do sort of get a whiff of that from the whole fantasy RPG angle I have been reading it on. If the whole thing is an analogy for MMPORGs and video games in general, then hat he's really saying is that the whole romantic noble savage stuff is just a big fantasy. I mean, it almost seemed like James Cameron was mocking the left through an obvious exaggeration of all lefty ideas about capitalists and the environment. You are confusing established sci-fi elements of a living planet with environmentalism, and what does Kelo in space have to do with capitalism? Gee, maybe it was the oft-repeated line that humans had "killed their mother" by our abuses of our own planet. That, coupled with the capitalist caricatures who are supposedly obsessed with profits, yet repeatedly overlook myriad opportunities to make profits AND avoid spending money on military action. And if you think Cameron intended this film to be about eminent domain, I've got a railroad yard in Brooklyn to sell you. corning, do you actually believe what comes out of your brain or are you just retarded? The movie was clearly environmentalist and anti-capitalist: "We must be one with nature, the humans are raping our planet for money, bla bla bla." In response, director James Cameron says he considers smoking "a filthy habit" and does not view Weaver's character as "an aspirational role model" for teenagers: She’s rude, she swears, she drinks, she smokes. Weaver's character in Avatar is one of the good guys. And, I won't Godwin the thread by naming a certain vegetarian, non-drinking, non-smoking sociopath of the early to mid-1900s. Gandhi? Good guess, but I think it could be any of a veritable plethora of progressives. Now, they were racists. I don't recall Robert La Follette ever calling WEB DuBois a "negro communist". I think the bad thing about this movie is there actually IS a good reason for the humans not to be digging up this planet. It has a unique and unusual ecosystem very unlike Earth's. While I do believe Cameron is recycling the same old tropes of criticizing European colonialism, what the humans are doing here is a lot worse. Does it remind anyone of "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?" wherein the protagonist is too perfect to be criticized? VIEW HIT & RUN ARCHIVES »

So what about that small minority known as the Catholic business owner? I ask every Catholic reading this blog post to take in hand their Sunday bulletin picked up at yesterday's mass and look at the back cover. There you will see, for the most part, advertising from Catholic-owned and operated businesses. [...]As Charlotte then points out, it is insane to think that one's Catholic identity must legally be confined to one's place of worship on Sunday mornings. Faith is meant to be lived, and if the living of that faith means that some Jewish deli owners don't sell ham or bacon and that some Muslim taxi drivers refuse to drive inebriated passengers and some Catholic business owners refuse to host fake gay "weddings," then our historic national appreciation of religious freedom should allow all of those things to be possible for people of faith. Next, let's say that word gets out on the local level that Catholic Business X did a gay wedding. What would your reaction be? I know mine, and it's automatically imbued with sin. I'm going to mention it to fellow Catholic friends: "Did you hear that Catholic Business X catered a big gay wedding and reception?" And then they tell a friend, who tells someone they see at some business meeting, and they tell another, and then someone tells the priest, and on down the line it goes. And then for next year's parish festival, Catholic Business X doesn't get a bid opportunity to rent out beer tents from the festival planning committee. Or maybe the owner of Catholic Business X notices that some parishioners at mass just aren't as friendly to him as they used to be. See where I'm going with this? I believe that a business is entitled to not have their reputation tarnished by laws demanding that services be provided which violate their religious beliefs. I believe that Catholics, whether corporately or privately, have a reasonable right to maintain reputation as a Catholic in good standing, which ultimately means that they should be able to exercise judgments and actions that are in line with the teachings of the Catholic faith. With reference to the Catholic inn keepers in Vermont, it is being said that they have a free-standing Catholic chapel on their property, as well as a history of renting out their facilities to various Catholic groups. Knowing this, if they voluntarily agreed to host every gay wedding that walked through the door, what effect might that have on the stream of Catholic-based business that they already have? Likely, it would have a very negative effect simply because word gets around. Worse, what if they were forced - by law - to accept every gay wedding that was requested? Some might answer, "Well, it wouldn't matter because we'd all understand that they had to do it. I wouldn't discriminate against that business/owner because they're just complying with the law." Oh really? What if you booked a Catholic seminar at that inn one weekend, and once you and all the other Catholic attendees arrived, discovered that out on the grounds of the inn there was a gay wedding taking place? And what if the gay couple from the wedding were having professional photographs taken inside the little Catholic chapel on the premises? What if there were drag queens as guests at that wedding and some older folks attending the Catholic seminar were very uncomfortable with what they were seeing? For that matter, what if you had a teenager with you at that Catholic seminar, and during a break, your son or daughter caught sight of gay couples kissing each other? You'd never book another event at that inn, ever. Period. [...] So I ask this: WHY should these inn owners - or any Catholic-owned business - have to risk ruining their good business and/or Catholic reputation because the gay community insists that whatever they ask for must be provided? Why do I say "some" religious believers will refuse to do certain things? Because, let's face it: there will always be plenty of unobservant or functionally irreligious people of various faiths who will take a childlike delight in turning against the actual practitioners. There may well be some Jewish people who argue in favor of selling ham, some Muslim people who argue in favor of giving rides to drunks, some Catholic people who think gay "weddings" are terrific, even some Buddhist people who would have no moral qualms about owning and running a slaughterhouse. But such people rarely speak for their faiths; in fact, they seem to enjoy speaking against them. The truth is, such people are not usually the ones advertising in church bulletins (or the like, for other faiths) and trying to attract business among their fellow worshipers. So Charlotte's question still stands: why should Catholic business owners lose all of their Catholic business just because homosexuals insist that Catholics must accept and celebrate homosexual behavior to the point of participating in a "wedding" that the Catholics know fully well is a complete lie according to the Church? I would like to see some answers to Charlotte's question. Do religious business owners have any right at all to act according to the dictates of their faith and consciences in the business sphere--or must everyone be forced to live as though secularism were our only faith, and religion a mere hobby to take part in on weekends, which is how militant atheistic secularism sees it? 61 comments: Although I agree philosophically with a lot of what you and Charlotte hove said on this issue, I think that ultimately in this country businesses should not have the right to discriminate based on race, sex, sexual orientation, or religion. This is a good law that protects the fundamental notion of separation of church and state. And that separation is just as important in protecting mybright to worshipnhow I want, as it is in protecting the rights of consumers to NOT be punished for what they believe. It's a sacred right in my book and a big part of what makes this country great. Sadly, this does mean that as a catholic, I must at times "render unto ceasar". I must pay taxes even if I fundamentally disagree with how some are used. I must often conduct business at places who's philosophies, ideologies, and even business practices I might find wrong. I mean I can try not to, that's within my rights, but I bet Target isn't a business run perfectly by catholic standards. I haven't ever researched every single product that I buy, seeing who they give their money to and how they run their business. Places like walmart, and even the grocery store where I shop, treat their employees really shabbily. I don't shop at walmart, but I live in a tiny town that has one decent grocery store. I have to shop there. So, I think that yes, as a catholic business owner, whether a pharmacist, doctor, cake decorated, florist, or wedding planner, it's time to start thinking about your faith and your moral qualms with what th laws of this country require. I'm sorry, but that is the price we pay for other fundamental freedoms. We certainly have the right to either continue conducting business according to the law, or get into a line of business that does not compromise our faith. And again, Christ himself said "render unto Ceasar". I understand that to mean that at a point, we are held responsible to just law. Certainly, anti- discrimination laws are just. And we are free to make money other ways. Mel I don't know of any court who would buy Charlottes's plea, which is legally indistinguishable from an innkeeper claiming that they would almost certainly suffer loss of business damages from their cracker clients if they served black ones. Remember, you will never be pleading in a Catholic or even a religious court. The problem you're up against is how to document that you're acting out of religious conviction instead of arbitrary personal discrimination, and to do that I don't see how you can pick and choose which religious convictions of your faith you get to hold and which you get to ignore in order to book more business. Seems to me the only way any court would take you seriously would be if you were consistent and claimed the right to refuse to serve any who violated any tenet of your faith, then provided a list of everything your faith prohibited, then took active steps to insure no potential customer was in violation of them. But saddling yourself with that sort of due diligence can be a pickle. Did you take reasonable steps to find out if that woman was divorced before you served her? If you refuse service to a homosexual after you've served a divorcee or an abortion doctor you've just arbitrarily discriminated against the homosexual based only on your personal whim, at least in the eyes of any court I'm familiar with. How do you solve that problem, and how do you protect yourself and your loved ones from others who have to solve that very same problem with respect to having to deal with you? For the record, Erin, I believe that small business owners should be able to follow their consciences, and that they shouldn't be required to allow what they see as sinful behaviour to take place on their facilities. I think those Vermont B & B owners should be able to deny use of their premises for a gay wedding. I'll go further and suggest that I think they should be allowed to forbid unmarried heterosexual couples, or previously divorced people, from sharing a room, if they so choose. (Many hotels used to do so, I believe). If I wanted to stay at their facility with a woman I wasn't married to, and they said no, I would just say 'okay' and go elsewhere, I certainly wouldn't start whining about it. I hope the B & B owners win their case, and that the court tells the narcissistic whiners to shut up and sit down. That being said, I'm curious whether you think that business owners should be able to discriminate against RC lifestyle choices as well. I know more than a few people who think that having more than one or two children is immoral, for environmental reasons. If they owned, say, a photography business, should they be allowed to refuse to take family pictures of a Catholic household with six children? Anonymous, How come people didn't have to "pay the price" before, in this country, for those fundamental freedoms? Why now? You also don't articulate an accurate or historical understanding of separation of church/state. The U.S. wasn't founded on the notion as you (and 99% of everyone else who doesn't understand it) describe. This country was founded with that separation so that religion and government would not be combined and wield power as one, united entity. Last time I checked, we haven't had yet a president who also claimed to be the supreme leader of a religious organization, so separation of church/state seems to be working just fine, as intended. It was never intended to be as you're thinking or wishing. The founding of the United State of America was based upon freedom to practice religion. Do people understand they they are now arguing for just the opposite? They are now arguing for the polar opposite of Americanism. That is VERY scary. Glen, No one has a right to refuse service to a homosexual. Read closely all arguments concerning this topic. Rather, it is the ACTION of the homosexual being performed and sanctioned live and in person, on the spot of the Catholic's property that is the issue. The homosexual wants to have a gay wedding, which is considered immoral and invalid by Church-believing Catholics. People should read my blog post, since it's about Catholic REPUTATION, not this whole Vermont inn argument all over again. But anyway, since we now have to rehash and review this whole thing, let it be known AGAIN, that the Vermont inn owners have vocally explained that they have rented rooms to homosexuals for a long time now and have not had a problem doing so. The problem was with a gay wedding. Homosexual and homosexual wedding are two different subjects. One is a person, one is an action. YES, you can separate the two. I can ask a stripper over for dinner. But I might not want the stipper to actually strip in my home. I can object to the action performed, but not to the humanity and dignity of the person. I think I'm gonna try and sue the next store that says "no shoes, no shirt, no service." I mean, that's discrimination against humans. How dare they tell me how to compose and comport myself in their place of business? Fundamentally, I'm with Charlotte on this one. That is not a new thought for me. If she and I were both on the Supreme Court, we might write slightly different concurring opinions, keeping an eye on all the many different sets of facts that an appellate ruling will be applied to in the future. For example, I believe that a nurse who is a devout Roman Catholic should be able to refuse participation in an abortion, without losing her job. If it is a hospital, there will be plenty of other nurses who could be called in (since the patient does have the legal right to schedule the procedure). I would expect such a nurse NOT to apply for work at a clinic where abortion is a large part of the workload, just as a vegetarian should not apply for work at a steak house, then object to being directed to serve a platter of beef. When it comes to a pharmacist who has conscientious objections to filling a prescription for contraceptives, sorry, the customer has a right to get their prescription filled. Find another line of work. Or, find a pharmacy that does not, and advertises up front that it does not, keep contraceptives in stock. Maybe if there are two pharmacists on duty at all times, and at least one is prepared to fill the prescription, accommodations could be made. Getting back to the RC couple running the B&B: The fact that there is an RC chapel on the grounds is significant. If it is in fact dedicated and consecrated as such, then the First Amendment and over 150 years jurisprudence protects that consecrated ground from being used for any purpose that would desecrate it, in the eyes of the RC church. The courts have NO jurisdiction over what that might be. They follow the law of the highest judicatory of the church, period, in matters of faith and doctrine. In this regard, Charlotte is correct that the First Amendment protects citizens from any given faith being established as a power in or over the state, AND, protects individual free exercise. "Separation of church and state" does not, and never has, meant that what the state deems acceptable is mandatory for the church, or for the individual private conscience. Everyone who has offered an opinion here knows that it is lawful for a business to limit its offerings to kosher food, or halal food, or products that conform to any similar religious prescription or proscription, and to advertise it as such. IF the owner of a kosher business refused to sell to a willing buyer because "I don't sell to Arabs," or the owner of a halal business because "I don't sell to infidels," THAT would be a violation of well established equal access to public accommodations law. But, a Roman Catholic could not barge in and insist that a kosher or halal butcher should slaughter their freshly bought pig, and sue for discrimination. If the couple running the B&B says "We only host weddings that are recognized as such by the RC church" they would be more akin to limiting their fare to halal, kosher, or, in this case, RC canon. Maybe they could in good conscience host a reception for a wedding conducted under the rubric of "the scandal of Protestantism," or maybe they could not. They should be willing, if a gay man and a lesbian woman sought to enter into marriage with each other, to host that wedding reception. It is the product that they are being specific about, not the characteristics of the individuals. Many states these days do require landlords to rent apartments without inquiring as the marital status or carnal intentions of the prospective tenants. Generally, I think that is OK, because everyone needs a place to live, and the landlord is renting housing, not a place for sex, which is incidental to occupancy. There are, in most such laws, exceptions when the owner resides on the premises, with four units or less. That's appropriate also. That's where personal preference has a place, not matter what the burden on the tenant. Hector, People refuse business all the time, for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes they say why, other times they don't and come up with excuses. In the case of the photographer, I say yes, they can decide they don't want to photograph the large family for whatever reason they want. Should they be tacky enough to say their real reasons why? Probably not. But hey, if offending people is their thing, then go for it. I said before I think the Vermont inn owners should have been smarter and just said they made a mistake and were already booked that day. Might not have made a difference, though, since I believe 100% (despite what the official "story" is) that these inn owners were targeted from the beginning. Erin, I'm not sure if I'm amused or saddened to see that, again, no one can appreciate or respect religious freedom as guaranteed in this country since the constituion was first conceived. They cannot see past the facts of this Vermont case to the bigger issues that you have written about or that I have written about. They actually appear to prefer and desire a society free of religious freedom and free of freedom of religious expression. I seriously don't get it. Do they think abolition of these freedoms won't affect them? They must - they think gay marriage won't affect us, either. It's astonishing to watch even Catholics here say thay we need to shut up or get out of business. This stuff should be solved by everyone relaxing a little. There are plenty of businesses willing to host a same-sex wedding reception. That is where such business should be going. I see Hector and I are using the same phrase for those who want to make everyone accommodate their every whim. Narcissistic whiners is exactly what they are. But this won't be solved by relaxed common sense. It will be sorted out in the courts. The couple should take some care how they present their case, but it is winnable. An instructive case is HURLEY ET AL. v. IRISH-AMERICAN GAY, LESBIAN AND BISEXUAL GROUP OF BOSTON, INC., ET AL In an opinion by that well-know right wing reactionary, David Souter, the Supreme Court said there is no right to impose your speech on the organizers of a parade, so no, the Massachusetts public accommodations law does NOT give the Irish Gay and Lesbian contingent the right to march in the St. Patrick's Day Parade. (They should have just called themselves the Sir Roger Casement Battalion). A B&B is a public accommodation. That is a difference, in terms of judicial reasoning. But as Charlotte says, they are limiting the kind of services they provide, not discriminating as to who may purchase those services. Siaryls, I agree with your pharmacist analogy with one exception. If the pharmacist works for Walgreens or CVS, etc., then yes - filling a prescription for contraceptives should not be denied. But if it is a privately owned pharmacy (a rarity these days, but they still do exist), then no. If the pharmacy is privately owned by a Catholic, then they can refuse to fill that contraception prescription. You can call me Mel. The separation of church and state applies equally to all three of the ruling government branches, of which the judicial branch is one. Meaning that our laws do indeed have to protect that right. It does not just mean that our governing body cannot also be a religious one. It has a broader application than that. And, no, finally, businesses is this country just don't get to "make up" their own rules. They are very closely restricted as to how they conduct business to protect the rights of consumers. This is not new information. Lawyers make their living every day because of these restrictions. I know it really bothers you, but bottom line it's not a new idea. It will be up to Catholics to decide how to morally conduct business as best they can. We aren't being persecuted here. "I wanted to stay at their facility with a woman I wasn't married to" In your dreams, Hector :+) I just went to that inn's website. (Inn? It's a huge complex! And very family friendly - accomodations and activities for kids and even scheduled programs for kids.) Anyway, on their "weddings" tab they have a statement that they are no longer accomodating weddings or other special events. See? Loss of business, as I predicted. Because some whiners don't have the grace and dignity to take "no" for an answer and find one of a myriad of other places that would roll out the red carpet for them. People are becoming barbarians. Well anyway, good for them. They are protecting their reputations as Catholics, and as Catholic business owners. Oh PS. I'm not saying I like Charlotte, I am just saying this is what living in a " free" country means for better or worse. I would not trade it for a catholic monarchy, which I sometimes fear the arguments ultimately lead. Do I hate that abortion is okay? Absolutely. But, again, result of a free country. Do I deeply dislike marriage being redefined? Absolutely. Again, free country. My religion cannot dictate our laws. Separation of church and state. That leaves it up to me- as with the Inn owners ultimately- to decide how to conduct myself as a catholic business owner. And I am talking business only here. I am not talking about a churches right to refuse, just a money making businesses right to. Mel Re: Do I hate that abortion is okay? Abortion is hardly a comparable issue. The idea that "killing innocent human beings, except maybe in self defence, is, you know, wrong" isn't limited to Catholics, it's one that all reasonable and decent people hold, or ought to. Siarlys Jenkins, I'm indebted to you for the "Narcissistic Whiner" phrase. :) I've been away from the blog for a bit; want to respond to some of these comments. Glen seems to equate the deeply held and consistently-taught religious beliefs of a major world religion as to the nature and purpose of marriage with unjust racial prejudice. That, I fear, is what will lead to the rights of Catholics being stripped away in the wake of gay "marriage" decisions. Mel, I think you're confused about just and unjust discrimination in a business context. A vegetarian restaurant does not have the right to ban meat-eaters from eating in their restaurant. The restaurant does, however, have the right to refuse to cook meat for the meat-eaters or to allow the meat eaters to use hibachi grills in the parking lot to cook their own meat to consume in the restaurant. Public accommodation does not mean, "I must consent to your behavior in all circumstances." And gay "weddings" are about behavior, not merely accommodation; the Catholic innkeepers should not, as Charlotte says, be forced to celebrate the sin of gay "marriage" and face the resulting loss of business from the Catholic families who would refuse to stay at an inn hosting a gay "wedding." As far as the separation of church and state: some of us would say that as marriage pre-dates the state, the state does not have jurisdiction to redefine or abolish marriage. I firmly believe we're heading toward the abolition of civil marriage in this nation, and anybody who shrugs and says "Oh, well, that's up to the state," doesn't really understand Catholic social teaching or the likelihood that vulnerable women and their children will suffer the most under such an arrangement. I think what I am trying to say is that businesses in this country are already restricted in many many ways as to how they operate. I don't see, necessarily, this issue as being uniquely a catholic one or even uniquely a religious one. And what I was trying to say is that those restrictions are important and are generally put in place to protect both the business and the consumer and respect a kind of over all fairness in business practice. So, even though I agree that it is completely disengenuious of the Lesbian couple to push themselves on the Catholic B&B, I am in favor of consumers rights and protections in general. And I am pretty sure the reaction of the owners of the B&B on their website is a reflection of where their lawyers advised them that the law would come down on in this case. I am open to the fact that none of my points are being articulated very well given the state of my 8 1/2 months pregnancy induced stupidity. :-). Mel Finally, I am not saying I like it. I am just saying that legally I am not sure how work to out a legal happy medium whereby a business owners personal beliefs could somehow be upheld while practicing fair business practices. I think that is just an impossible road to go down realistically. Some problems have already been raised. But more significant to me as a Catholic, is someone deciding they could refuse me service based on that. Or, based on say, the fact that I am pregnant with my 5th child. I just feel business practices should be required to err on the side of consumer and employees rights and protections. Mel I take Erin's question: "do religious business owners have any right..." as a legal question and have been trying to research the answer, as opposed to offering a personal opinion (which again, I think is not what Erin is asking for). Yet I'm finding it difficult to come to the correct legal conclusion under Vermont law. To the extent it is helpful, the topic seems to be "Religious Conscience Protection Laws," also called "Religious Refusal Laws." I see they exist at various state and federal levels. Many seem to arise in response to health care and gay marriage issues. For example, I've come across a CT bill (can't tell if it was enacted)that covers a "religious organization, association or society, or any nonprofit institution," but not an individual or private business owner. The legislature appears to have debated extending the protection that far, but pulled back: and such solemnization or celebration is in violation of their religious beliefs and faith." Iowa also recently tried to enact a similar law but it cratered b/c it was too broadly drafted and would allow a private business to deny services not only to gay married couples but also to cross-religious married couples (e.g. Catholic-Lutheran), if the business owner's personal religious beliefs were violated by a cross-religious marriage. I don't know why a private business owner in Iowa should be prevented from denying his service to a cross-religious marriage, but that seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back on that law. So, it seems that laws exist at the State level (varying from state to state) and at the federal level. I'm not finding a RCPA in VT, but it might be out there or buried in another law or called something else. I hope this was informative. Thanks, Peter, that was informative. The cross-religion marriage thing is weird. The Catholic objection to gay marriage is, of course, that a marriage between two members of the same sex is impossible and invalid. A Catholic would never object to a valid marriage between two people of the opposite sex and/or different religions. Seriously, while many Christian religions (including Catholicism) highly recommend and warn against marrying someone not of the same religion, no one that I know of disallows it. I can't even think of one! (Can anyone else come up with an example? Now I'm just intrigued to know.) For that to have been any kind of consideration in the law-making process in Iowa must have meant either there was a really loud/vocal minority contingent off their rocker OR there was a liberal contingent (pro-gay marriage) that introduced this concept as a canard to confuse the process. At any rate, I believe that there are law books filled with religious objection/conscience cases that don't apply to marital siuations, but involve other matters and issues. I belive that THOSE would be used as prescedent-setting cases, since as you're trying to determine, there's nothing else to go on. When I searched for my biological mother, I discovered that she was a Jehovah's Witness. I have spent alot of time talking with her about her faith, and have discovered that the life of a committed, practicing JW is filled with religious objections that must be explained and fought for. (Actually, I am of the opinion - and I'm not the only one out there who believes this - that the JW's have done more for protection of religious belief in modern times than anyone.) There are hundreds of cases out there from the JW's, and to the best of knowledge, they win almost every time. For what it's worth, that's another religion where I'm very positive that if the inn owner had been a JW, they wouldn't have allowed the gay wedding either. In their case, I believe the lesbians would have just have left them alone because JW's are kooks and weirdos, right? But Catholics? They're always good for a fit and a lawsuit. At least that's the impression I get lately. Maybe I'm being redundant--but isn't the whole center of the problem the fact that Vermont officially recognizes same-sex relationships as eligible for marriage? Once that kind of law is passed, it seems like the way is paved now for this kind of persecution. Just as, when abortion/contraception are officially recognized as "medical procedures", it has the potential of pushing all Christians, Jews, and anyone who recognizes moral law, out of the medical field. Maybe there is a certain amount of protection we can claim still, but the official state recognition is going to be key. Going back to the racial analogy, which is obnoxious I know, but I could see someone saying that for religious reasons, they cannot recognize a wedding between a black man and a white woman, as a real marriage. But I could see them being (justly) sued for discrimination, even though their beef is not with the black man but with his action. So I guess what I'm saying is that religious rights, personal rights and those things that our country has always held sacred--those things aren't going to exist in a vacuum, and they are going to be turned upside down and inside out, in a state which officially endorses perversity and self-destruction. I don't mind re-thinking this, if anyone wants to correct my reasoning... Also I would like to re-iterate, for those who don't seem to get it, that the owner of a B & B does not have an obligation (or even a right) to closely examine everyone staying at their B & B, about their marital status or sex life. Any more than a priest has an obligation to question every communicant about whether he has been attending Sunday Mass, etc. It is when someone is in a professed, public state of sin, that the priest is obligated to withhold communion. For obvious reasons. Likewise the owner of the B & B may assume all is well, unless there is a public profession that the couple intends to use the facilities for an immoral purpose, or if it is otherwise obvious--for instance, if a seventeen-year-old boy comes in with a twelve-year-old girl...it would be right to ask questions in that case. This should all be obvious to anyone with a moderate measure of common sense. I'm sorry that came out as "anonymous", it was me, Rebecca. In connection with a family wedding, I was told by a RC priest last year that a RC priest may not perform a marriage ceremony to a person who is not baptized. Is that an accurate statement of RC marriage laws? If so, isn't that an examplle of a particular religion disallowing cross-faith marriage? Peter, someone else would have to answer on that. My recall (which may be very bad/wrong) is that it can be done if the bishop says it's OK. That's called a dispensation. You know, Red (and you know this already), the reason many of these people think we're completely nuts and bigots, etc., is because 3/4ths of all American Catholics don't practice their faith anyway. Plus they don't know what the Church teaches. So WE get branded as the extremists, when in fact, the others aren't even, really (in some sense) Catholic at all. We get judged based upon them. Which always begs the question of: Why do they bother to be Cathlolic or self-identify as Catholic at all? Especially about the Eucharist. If you don't believe it's really the body and blood of Christ, why not leave? Isn't it that 60-some percent of Catholics don't believe? I mean, really, then find some place that works for you. It's these catholic-in-name-only who don't know/practice the faith that cloud this issue of gay marriage. If Catholics were unified in their understanding of Catholic teaching and everyone on the outside knew it, I don't think people would be all that astonished by situations like the one in Vermont. I am far from an expert on Islamic law, but a quick internet search leads to some persuasive authority tha Muslim men are discouraged from interfaith marriage and Muslim women are prohibited from interfaith marriage. Laws that are fundamentally bad can be recognized by their tendency to warp basic foundational principles like life and liberty. Lincoln pointed out how the slavery question infested issues like the admission of new states and the formation of new territories, and was at the root of schisms of the large protestant sects of his day, as well having an impact on supreme court appointments, and virtually every election. Today, abortion is at the heart of every supreme court appointment, and of most elections. Here in Texas, murdering a child under 5 is a capital crime -- unless that child has not been born yet. In many places, acts that inadvertantly take the life of the unborn are criminal, but intentionally taking the life of the unborn is not. This sort of warping of common sense and legal consistency is the hallmark of morally repugnant law. Same-sex "marriage" is no different. "Husband" and "wife", "father" and "mother" are becoming politically incorrect terms (in California, birth certificates now have spaces for "parent A" and "parent B"). School books, already re-written to teach the new regime, are being adopted in every state that has civil unions. Businesses run by Christians -- not Moslems, mind you -- are targeted for litigation. Traditional morality is equated with bigotry, and religious faith is now seen as a barrier to entry in a variety of professions and occupations. It's insanity. And sane people will not embrace or enable it. Re: I can't even think of one! (Can anyone else come up with an example? Now I'm just intrigued to know.) Charlotte, As I understand it, the Eastern Orthodox Church does not permit its members to marry non-Christians (it permits, but discourages them from marrying Christians from non-Orthodox confessions). The marriage of former Massachusetts Governor Michael Dukakis, for example, wasn't recognized by his church because his wife was Jewish. Peter, Muslim men are permitted to marry Christian or Jewish women, but not women of any other religion. (I know a Muslim man whose Hindu fiance converted to Christianity to marry him, believe it or not.) Muslim women are prohibited from marrying outside their faith. Obviously, Muslims vary in how seriously they take the prohibition, and unlike Christianity, Islam lacks centralized clerical authorities. Re: Likewise the owner of the B & B may assume all is well, Rebecca in ID, If a straight couple without wedding rings walks into a B & B and asks for a room, don't you think the default presumption is that they're maybe going to be breaking Catholic sexual teachings? Seriously, while I think Catholics (and members of other religions) have the right not to allow their premises to be used for activities they disapprove of (whether gay sex, drinking alcohol, eating beef, or what have you), if these rules were enforced on straight people as well as gays then I don't think there would be this many frivolous lawsuits. Hector, if I can answer your question to Rebecca: not at all! In the first place, the absence of wedding rings does not denote the absence of a valid marriage--I recall a hilarious story of a young bride in Alaska in about 1960 flying into a major city and trying to deposit money in her new joint bank account--only to have to explain that she didn't wear a ring because of an allergy to gold, she didn't have a driver's license because she flew a plane in the part of Alaska where she lived and where cars were essentially useless (and back then, pilots' licenses weren't photo i.d.s though they probably are now), and she didn't have her marriage license because the wedding had only happened three days before and the certificate hadn't been mailed to the couple yet. She eventually convinced the bank that she was the wife of the account holder (these days, though...!). So, a married couple might not wear rings for one reason or other--but beside that, are you going to grill or interrogate every male/female couple that walks in as to their relationship and intention to engage in what ought to be marital activity? The couple might be brother and sister (and if the sister is married, her last name might be different). The couple might be friends (and the man might be same-sex attracted, so that there's no moral danger whatsoever for him to share a room with his attractive female heterosexual friend). There might be a dozen other perfectly reasonable explanations as to why a male/female couple without wedding rings wishes to share a room, without the assumption that they want the room for illicit activity (unless, of course, the hotel is the sort of place which rents rooms by the hour, which is not the sort of place a Catholic ought to own, anyway). So: denying people of any gender a room for the night is vastly different than saying, "We do not host same-sex "weddings" because of our deeply held, centuries-old religious beliefs according to which these "weddings" are fake, the pairs not truly married in the eyes of God or man, and the whole charade an affront to decent people who value virtue and morality." And as far as I'm concerned, Catholic innkeepers ought to have the legal right to say that. Charlotte, this was a good deal of water under the bridge and many comments ago, but I agree that an individual pharmacy might well choose, and advertise, not to stock contraceptives at all. For that matter, they could choose not to stock antibiotics. They are subject to the vagaries of the market - how many customers they will attract, retain, or discourage from coming back - but not to lawsuits. The only other issue that seems outstanding (we all know where each of us stands on abortion, so no need to throw that into the mix again), is the question of what level and kind of state regulation a business is subject to. There seems to be an assumption being floated that, because the state must be neutral in matters of religion, and because businesses are licensed and regulated by the state, therefore a business must be neutral in matters of religion. That is without any constitutional or legal foundation. COMMERCE is subject to regulation by the state. Religion is, by definition, not commerce, although if a religious body runs a commercial subsidiary, whether that be a thrift store or a winery, the business is subject to regulation, and tax, as a business. This comes up over and over in the fatuous "Christmas Wars," which exist more in the eye of media anxious to drum up another story than in the minds and hearts of people trying to celebrate their favorite holiday(s). Can a business post an explicitly religious theme in its windows? Absolutely. Do people who are offended have to shop there? No, they can go elsewhere. Do large chains trying to cater to the maximum clientele tend to water things down? Yes, its good business to do so. Is that wrong? No, its their option. The owners of a B&B are under no state-imposed obligation to be religiously neutral. They can put crucifixes in every room if they want. They can paint a mural of the Temptation of St. Anthony all around their dining room. That may or may not be a sound business decision, but it is no business of the state. The only plausibly valid argument is that the state may impose nondiscrimination laws. We've beaten to death that "nondiscrimination" is about equal access to the services the business offers, NOT demanding that it offer whatever a given customer wants. So, they cannot turn away customers because "you are not of the right faith," or we only serve 'mericans, or we don't like your color, or your turban, and in many states, they can't turn a customer away because "you're gay, and we don't want your kind here." So the question -- which we have all covered pretty thoroughly, is whether refusing to host a same-sex wedding is per se discrimination against people who are gay. I would say no, and I've already said why, as have many others. Finally, I agree with Erin that declining to host a celebration of a same-sex marriage is not similar to discrimination on the basis of race. Everyone since 1965 who feels they are "discriminated against" wants to cast themselves as "the new black," but they are not. They each have their own case to make. Red, though, I'm interested in what you think about the way the changing of the law pretty much might challenge that right. So for example, the B and B would not be required to celebrate a shacking up ceremony on their premises, because they do weddings, not shacking up ceremonies. But once the state formally recognizes a "wedding" of a same sex couple...isn't there a fundamental change there, and don't you see it as difficult to maintain the position of religious freedom amid that? It seems like a losing battle as long as those kinds of laws are being changed. I'm with you on your reply to Hector. Huge difference between a public declaration/celebration and what people may choose to do privately. Which is why it is not necessarily inconsistent to oppose a law against sodomy while also opposing a state redefinition of marriage to include same-sex relationships. St. Thomas Aquinas talks about how it is imprudent to try to make laws which cannot reasonably be enforced--it lessens the force of law to do so--and likewise it is imprudent to try to make lists of rules which would require prying in order to enforce. That is worlds different than openly, publicly celebrating wrong actions. Rebecca, I'll go further than you: the whole reason gay rights agitators have forced the change of the law in various states is because they wish to silence, punish, and marginalize anyone who holds to the religious (Catholic, Christian, Orthodox Jewish, Muslim, and other) belief that gay sex acts are immoral, that putting the stamp of a fake "marriage" license on them does not make them moral, and that there is no comparison whatsoever between a heterosexual marriage and homosexual pairings. And this is what is wrong. Consider that a relatively short (100 years or so) time ago, sex before marriage--fornication--was seen by society at large as a character weakness, a clear deviation from virtue, and a problem to be resolved by the marriage of the guilty parties (the phrase, "You should make an honest woman of her" didn't come from nowhere). Now, the idea that fornication is immoral is widely laughed at, and society thinks it is more insulting to a young man or woman--especially a woman--to think he or she is *not* behaving like a promiscuous slut than to hint that he or she might actually be chaste and virtuous. "Virgin" has become an intolerable insult, to be flung only at those young men or women the mob dislikes; and the poor young person called a virgin is expected to yell "Am not! You take that back!" as if to be assumed to be pure is the most insulting thing anyone can assume about you. The fiction of gay "marriage" can only be maintained in a world in which chastity and virtue are completely denigrated. Same-sex couples do not "save themselves for marriage" and would find it horrifically insulting to be told that they ought to do so. They do not marry to "make honest men/women of each other," as sodomy is still immoral whether one is "married" or not (and, indeed, whether one is heterosexual or not). So to destroy the last, tiny vestiges of the ideal of chastity and virtue, gay rights advocates must first change the laws to demand "marriage," and then silence, marginalize, exclude, and punish anyone who values traditional morality, chastity, purity, or the idea that sex is about more than producing temporary physical pleasure through friction. If we don't stand up for the very different Catholic take on marriage, sex, morality, virtue, chastity, and gender complementarity which has transcendent meaning as applied to the relationship between Christ and His Church, we'd better get used to the idea that any focus on these things will be labeled as "hate speech," and the Church herself as a "hate group" for insisting that all sex outside of *real* marriage is still gravely sinful and puts its practitioners in the serious danger of the eternal death of Hell. I'm not quite ready to shut up and give in to the sodomites on this one, probably because I see where we're headed, and how absolutely destructive it will be for our children, and our children's children, to grow up in a society which has moved from merely laughing at virtue to openly and persistently attacking it in its defiled and irredeemably corrupt institutions. Good discussion, all. As a pharmacist, though, I take umbrage to the idea that even privately owned independent pharmacies have the 'right' to deny sale of contraceptives. I will bring up two points. 1.) Herein a business is a business, and not entitled to act as an individual as what the Constitution was originally designed. It's getting scarier and scarier that corporations and groups of people seem to have access or rights 'above' or 'equal' to individuals. For the record, pharmacies receive much funding from federal and state programs i.e. their Medicaid-, and Medicare-eligible patients pay for their drugs in tax-payer funded programs. The pharmacist is licensed to perform a public function in the public arena in society. Physicians, teachers, hair dressers do not provide the drugs and information unless they are also licensed pharmacists. There are not private pharmacists providing select prescriptions for patients. 2.) Now, say, if one could overlook the fact that pharmacists are duly obligated by society to perform their duty in providing drugs, and were working, say, in a different capacity, such as solely providing advice, or checking drug interactions, NOT performing their duty, the argument could be let up a bit. Nevertheless, unless a patient has adequate opportunity or access to getting their prescription filled within a reasonable time by alternative pharmacies that provide the prescription product, then the patient DESERVES or has the right to get their prescription filled whether the owner has a decided position on the matter or not. Those were my main two points, but on the other hand, if I as a pharmacist know that my patient has been given a prescription for a drug or dose that will kill them or seriously hurt them or is likely to do damage, then I can use my pharmacist's judgment and refuse to fill. Will I knowingly fill a script for a drug that cause fetal death or birth defects in a woman who is obviously or reportedly pregnant? I don't think so. I will call the physician and tell that I'm not filling it and why. Zircon Red, do you mind if I ask you a few questions? When you say "If we don't stand up", do you mean you standing up yourself, or someone else standing up in place of you for what you want to see done? And how are you going to be doing this standing up, on a blog or in stories, or out there confronting people doing things you don't like in a legally governed world? Are you going to stand up by lobbying your representatives? I see on the side there you have already sworn against voting for Republicans, so threatening not to vote for them if they don't do what you want wouldn't seem to carry much weight, at least with Republicans. The reason I ask these things is, if you're going to stand up yourself and try to take on gay marriage or fornication or whatever yourself, how do you plan to defend yourself against counter attack? It's all well and good to say you're doing it out of religious principles rather than just out of some arbitrary personal spite, but if someone counter attacks you legally claiming you are simply arbitrarily harassing them, you're going to have to be able to prove some consistent pattern of standing up against all behavior your religion specifically prohibits as immoral. Otherwise you won't have a legal leg to stand on, and you could lose everything that can't be shielded in bankruptcy. So what's your plan for standing up? Of course if it's just blogging about it so that you and others can gripe, no worries. You're just talking, and we all know speech is protected. Beyond that, though, how does someone, maybe someone else if you don't do it yourself, stand up the way you're calling for while protecting themselves from crossing onto the wrong side of the law in doing so? That's assuming they care what side of the law they're on, which we'd assume they would. Hope that wasn't too many questions, but it just seems a lot easier to talk about what you're talking about than to really do anything, unless of course you've already decided to accept whatever the real world costs and consequences of doing something might be, like being legally convicted of malicious harassment and having to declare bankruptcy to shed a judgement. So how does someone do what you're calling for? Glen, I've addressed this sort of thing before, and it's beyond the scope of a comment box, but the kind of "standing up" I see myself willing to engage in has to do with being willing to help create a sort of parallel society in which I am not required by law to acknowledge or directly participate in evil. Rod Dreher used to refer to this as the "Benedict Option," by which he meant forming intentional communities to stand apart from (and in many cases, in opposition to) the many evils of modern American secularism--not merely to oppose evil, but to teach and strengthen others in the practice of virtue and goodness as Christianity is mandated to do. I've spoken of the idea here both to praise its strengths and criticize some weaknesses; but in general I think this is where Catholics may end up, fifty or a hundred years from now., and will probably not get well underway until the religious persecution I see as the inevitable result of forcing gay "marriage" on the nation has made a lot more of my fellow Catholics aware of the lengths we'll have to go to in order to preserve an authentically Catholic identity in the midst of a militantly atheistic and secularist nation bent on spreading its errors around the world. Will I even live long enough to see that point? Who knows? But like I said to someone elsewhere, I will at least know that if the secular nation in the future tries to create the fiction that no Catholics really cared much about gay "marriage" and the loss of religious freedom when all of that was happening, the words of those of us writing against this slide into national degeneracy will serve as a contradiction to the predominant narrative. Now, for myself, personally, as I've also said before, I would also consider leaving America for a saner, more pro-Catholic country--the problem is that this militant atheistic secularism is America's chief import, and there may not be a sane corner of the globe left to migrate to even if that became a realistic option for my family. I'd like to make the point, too, that blogging, writing, speaking is not doing nothing--it falls under instructing the ignorant, if it is done well, and can be powerful. And in fact I would go so far as to say that if there were not a number of intelligent people writing and speaking on these topics, the battle would quickly be lost. Those of us who do not have the time or talent for that, or for more directly political activity--we're educating our children and teaching them to live principled lives. And more and more, ordinary people will find themselves in situations where they can choose to compromise with the Culture of Death, or not. My husband sends SMS messages for various companies for a living.. My husband wrote a letter explaining that their company could not include these messages in their service, and the reply was three lawyers on the other end, threatening to sue and destroy the company. When they found out how small and insolvent the company was, they let it go because it was not worth their time--but if it had been worth their time, they may well have won. I know more and more people in various fields who have had to face various situations like this. It's becoming less and less theoretical. You said, ," I don't see how what you wrote above would be a long slow process, seems like you and anyone else who wanted to could do it tomorrow. Of course it would limit your options, but that's what you say you want to do anyway. You might have to give up some things you're enjoying now, but how important could they really be compared to what you really want? I don't see the problem. Why don't you and whoever else feels like doing what you say you want to do there just do it? Problem solved. The "slow process" part, Glen, involves letting those Catholic businesses know we're going to support them and helping them get started (an idea which also ties in to distributism, which I'm still learning about). For instance, you say, "So: go to a Catholic doctor! Go to a Catholic pharmacy!" etc. I do go to a Catholic doctor (though if I want to go to a pro-life, NFP only doctor there aren't many available where I live; alas, the one I used to go to had to quit practicing due to serious health issues of her own, from what I understand). I would love to support a Catholic pharmacy, but there isn't one. Heck, I'd love to shop at a Catholic version of WalTarMartGet etc. so I could buy toothpaste and soap without having to walk by the stupid condom aisle, or stand in the check-out line next to magazines decorated by scantily clad women posed beside headlines full of salacious details about how I can please my man (feminism in action, those magazines, don't you know). The Catholic store would be closed on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, and have a really nice religious goods department, too! Ah, dreams. :) But, like I said, such a company would have to know that enough of us would shop there--and they'd also have to be aware that they'd probably be sued on a near daily basis for the imaginary hurt feelings of openly gay customers and/or would-be employees, in addition to being sued for *not* selling condoms or Cosmo. So, again, a slow process to get to the point where a Catholic alternative community could exist in peace is indicated. Re:. I think that your husband's company should have the right not to send those messages, if they don't feel they can do so in good conscience. By the same token, they should make their opinions known in advance, and Columbia University should feel free to contract with a different company. Re: That is worlds different than openly, publicly celebrating wrong actions. By the same token, though, if the state treated gay sex as something 'wrong, but tolerated', isn't that infringing on the religious freedom of those people who don't believe that homosexuality is immoral? I don't personally believe that a gay relationship is quite the same thing as a marriage, and I don't want my church performing gay marriages, but I also don't want the state to send the message that it thinks gay relationships, or gay sex, is immoral and wrong. Because I don't believe they are. I don't really see there's a painless solution here: whatever the consensus our society comes to about the morality (or lack thereof) of homosexuality, someone's religious or moral views are going to be offended. There's simply no way around that. Hector, I agree with your last paragraph--which is why I think it just doesn't work for people to try to work out how we can tiptoe in just the right way so as not to offend anyone. It won't happen, it is not possible, and true freedom, which is defined a little differently than "not stepping on anyone's toes" cannot happen in a society which refuses to recognize or outright contradicts the moral law. Glen, So why don't all the homosexuals go off and start their own intentional communities, run the way they want? You seemed so eager for us to do it. They could just as easily do the same. Or would that sound too much like the whole AIDS/island idea from the 80's? "By the same token, though, if the state treated gay sex as something 'wrong, but tolerated', isn't that infringing on the religious freedom of those people who don't believe that homosexuality is immoral?" Yeah, if you think "religious freedom" means being able to do *anything* you want. Would you say the same thing about people who want to have open consensual sexual relations with animals? Or people who want to have four or five wives, consensually, of course? And demand that they be given access to the B and B's facilities for these things? I'm not sure where you personally, Hector, draw the line, but I'm pretty sure you draw the line *somewhere*. I'm pretty sure that you think people should be able to pursue happiness in their fashion--but that there are certain lines which just ought not be crossed, ought not at least be recognized as honorable or sanctioned by the state, regardless of how deeply held those convictions might be for those who want such actions sanctioned. Right? And my guess is, you think that somehow, that basic information, that basic instinct and those first principles, concerning those lines which ought not be crossed--you think that is knowledge is somehow accessible to everyone, don't you? If it's not, if it's just your private opinion, then what grounds are there for any kind of limiting of the definition of marriage, or limiting of any kind of behavior whatsoever? Re: It won't happen, it is not possible, and true freedom, which is defined a little differently than "not stepping on anyone's toes" cannot happen in a society which refuses to recognize or outright contradicts the moral law. All that is quite true. FTR, I'm not a philosophical liberal, and I think that plenty of behaviours (sexual, economic, and others) ought to be suppressed or at least discouraged. I just don't agree with you that contraception and homosexuality are among them. And I don't see a good reason that the government should support the teaching of your church that homosexuality is a sin, over the teaching of my church that it isn't. All that being said, I think you have the right, if you wish, to believe that contraception and homosexuality are wrong, and you also have the right not to have your business participate in supporting those activities. As long as the college women can go elsewhere to get the pill, and the lesbian couples can go elsewhere to get married, then I don't see why Catholic business owners need to violate their own moral sensibilities. okay, so good, there is a point of agreement: you seem to be saying that there is an objective moral law, which ought to be able to be recognized by all reasonable people, and the state should have something to say about that as well. I agree with that. Your church's "belief" vs. my Church's "belief" don't really have to do with that, if we're talking about something knowable by reason, so whether homosexuality and contraception are wrong, should be able to be hashed out, and we ought to be able to some agreement on that. Maybe that would take a few years, but anyway. The thing I would challenge apart from that point, though, is that there can be such a thing as a state *sanctioning* certain behavior *while* guaranteeing religious freedom to oppose or refuse to participate in such behavior. As I've been saying, I think once the law recognizes something as legitimate, equal to other things, good and honorable, etc., it *is* going to result in a tension which has to give. Religious freedom is freedom to do what you want according to your religion *within the confines* of decent behavior, and once the state *sanctions and blesses* sexual perversity, it *will* become impossible to maintain a position of "religious freedom", because anything opposing the state's official view, will be considered *not decent*, not within the confines of decent behavior. You already see the racial analogies being made. It isn't decent to refuse service to a person because of the color of his skin, right? And people *cannot* make the distinction between that, and the refusal to participate in or celebrate immoral actions. It is seen as indecent not to let them have their reception there, and if you can't be decent, why, get out of the B & B business. Re: The thing I would challenge apart from that point, though, is that there can be such a thing as a state *sanctioning* certain behavior *while* guaranteeing religious freedom to oppose or refuse to participate in such behavior If that's true, then I'm afraid you're out of luck. Since I don't believe that homosexuality is wrong, I am naturally not going the want the state to say that it's wrong. And if that means that your sentiments get offended, then I can't help that. Of course, I don't really believe that is true, and I think there is room enough in this world for both gay people and for conservative Catholics to live by their own lights. I don't agree with Quaker pacifists about the morality of war, but I think we should have a place in this world for Quaker pacifists. I don't agree with Buddhist vegetarians, but there needs to be a place in this world for Buddhist vegetarians. Same goes for you and Erin. Seriously, Quakers aren't required to participate in wars, and they wouldn't be even if we still had a draft; similarly, why don't you think there can be same protections for you? The state not saying it's wrong is different from the state sanctioning and blessing it as marriage. Like I said, you can oppose laws against sodomy (for practical reasons)and still be against state's re-definition of marriage. I believe the Quakers get away with what they get away with, because they are so minor and so invisible. Nobody feels threatened by them. I don't know how long that will last--already there are ridiculous things happening like Amish families being lined up against a wall by gunpoint in the middle of the night for the suspected crime of shipping raw milk over state lines--without much public outcry. It's a relatively minor matter, but folks are conditioned to think that it really is okay for the state to tell people they can't sell or even share raw milk, or maybe even give it to their own children. We're shrugging off these minor freedoms being taken away, but don't tell me the founding fathers aren't turning in their graves over such things. Already, in my lovely state of CA, K-12 is now *required* to include "gay" history in its textbooks, and to present it in a positive light--if you think that isn't going to result in a tension that's got to give, well, enjoy those good feelings while you can. Re: It's a relatively minor matter, but folks are conditioned to think that it really is okay for the state to tell people they can't sell or even share raw milk, or maybe even give it to their own children People get sick and die from raw milk routinely, which is why it's an excellent idea to prohibit it. I don't drink milk or eat much milk products, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't drink raw milk, nor would I allow my future children to drink it. I can't shed too many tears over those medically irresponsible Amish farmers (and I'm not a big follower of the cult of the founding fathers, so that line of argument is a nonstarter). Well, the bare facts are that pasteurized milk has proved to be far more dangerous than raw milk, despite what the CDC in bed with big dairy farmers *want* us to believe, but I'll let you do the research if you are interested. What about raw veggies, Hector? Shouldn't we be required by law to cook all our veggies; people die from raw veggie contamination all the time. The government should take care of us and ban lettuce, because we can't make that judgment for ourselves. I can't believe I'm in an argument about this on this thread--but I guess you're illustrating what I'm talking about; you have no problem with the government babysitting us through the smallest details, and as long as we're used to that, the government can tell us what we must teach our children, and so on, because someone has to keep us safe from ourselves. Our gradual acceptance of Big Government is a factor here but I want to re-state that my basic point is that when something is blessed and sanctioned by the state, there is no question that religious liberty in that arena will be compromised or even destroyed completely. The "cult" of the founding fathers--what do you mean??? I happen to think that when we are considering how to run our country, we should have some care about the Constitution. In what way is that a "cult"? If citizens, who are supposed in some measure to be self-ruling, are ignorant about their own country's constitution, and their own rights, how is this not all going to end up being the rule of the few strong and powerful? My whole point is that the Amish/Quakers etc. aren't necessarily free to do as they wish, even if it is important to them and something they have been doing for hundreds of years, especially if it threatens anyone powerful, and we may see their freedom disappearing. I thought I was illustrating something which would be obvious and had no intention of dwelling on it...I'll just shut up now... Rebecca, if you want to conduct business with the public, you have to treat all the public the same, regardless how you feel about them. You can't pick and choose, at least not in the U.S. If you say "no shirt, no shoes, no service", you can't hold some people to that standard and not others. If you offer weddings or wedding receptions, you can't serve gays and Lutherans but not Catholics, no matter what your reasons for wanting to do so. Before gay weddings were legally recognized to be the same as any other wedding, responding "in your dreams" to someone wanting you to host a gay wedding reception was perfectly legal. After gay weddings became legal, refusing to host gay wedding receptions while hosting other wedding receptions became as illegal as refusing to host Catholic wedding receptions while hosting other wedding receptions. How either party might feel about either is completely irrelevant under the law. Now, no one can FORCE you to hold wedding receptions if that might mean you might encounter having to hold a gay wedding reception, and that's what the Vermont innkeepers decided to do. Moral for them and legal for everybody. Maybe you're just not that familiar with anti-Catholic discrimination and persecution, not the kind Red wants to claim, but real persecution. Rebecca being lynched and burned alongside a black by the KKK just because she's Catholic. The only thing stopping that is the same legal arguments you're griping about. If you want to take things as far as Red wants to take them, then you have to be willing to go the distance she is willing to go and to pay the price she is willing to pay, namely live in self-created all Catholic ghettos. If you want to go farther and make all people obey your moral teachings, you really do need to go farther, out of the U.S., where you can reshape some other country so that Catholic teachings and the laws of the land are one and the same. For those that committed, this isn't as impossible as it may seem. What you can't do, though, no matter how much you fume about it, is live under the protection of U.S. laws preventing others from discriminating against you because you are Catholic while discriminating against others yourself. Split all the blog hairs you want, it isn't going to happen. Red's Catholic ghetto idea may be the best solution for you, if you can figure out how to do it without discriminating against others, because it lets you keep U.S. constitutional and other legal protections in place among yourselves. Once you move to the Nation of Catholica, it will be all Catholica, all the time. All the time. Of course, the bishops can, I understand, grant dispensations to some and not to others as they think best, depending, but hopefully you'll be okay with that. So Glen, I'm with you on thinking that once marriage is redefined by law, it becomes very difficult to maintain the "religious freedom" exemption. What I was saying was, before gay "marriage" was recognized, the B & B folks were fine as long as they said they hosted *wedding* receptions rather than *shacking up* receptions. So I have two questions for you, Glen, and I really want to know what you think; they are not rhetorical questions. First: Are there *any* behaviors you think it would be okay to protest against. Like for instance, would it be okay for the B and B to refuse to host a reception of a man marrying two or three women? And what role would the law have to do with that--in other words, would it be okay if it were illegal but not okay if it became legal to marry more than one wife. I'm interested in your thoughts on that. Second question, having to do with your analogy to the KKK burning folks. So I am against people using dangerous drugs, and I support warning people about those drugs, educating youth, and encouraging and helping people on drugs to get off of them. Do you think, because of that, that I secretly would like to burn drug users in religious ceremonies, and that when society disapproves of using dangerous drugs, we are on the verge of violent persecution of drug users? If not, can you explain to me why you think the fact that I think people destroy themselves and society through homosexual behavior, makes me like unto the KKK. I need to have that explained to me. Thanks! @Rebecca, Sure. Second question first. You said "If not, can you explain to me why you think the fact that I think people destroy themselves and society through homosexual behavior, makes me like unto the KKK." I didn't say anything of the sort and frankly I don't care what you think about homosexual behavior one way or another. I didn't give an analogy, I gave a historical reference about REAL Catholic discrimination and persecution, about what really could have happened to you personally if you'd been at the wrong place at the wrong time historically and what legally prevents it from happening today. Why, for example, you can't be refused service for being Catholic or be thrown out of a restaurant for acting "Catholicky" ie for saying grace and making the sign of the Cross before eating. You can process that information however you like, take it as I gave it to you, or rearrange it in your mind to suit whatever you want. First question: it's "okay" to protest against ANY behavior. There are, however, legal consequences to violating laws of the land, at least if you're caught. If you aren't prepared to suffer the consequences, you might not want to violate the laws. Some do. The Vermont innkeepers decided they didn't want to. Or change the laws. Does that help? Yes, Glen, it helps. Thanks for clarifying what you meant by the KKK stuff and my apologies for not catching your drift (I had some children crawling on me and should have probably just waited and re-read.) Yeah, I'm glad there isn't open violent persecution of Christians or of people who are trying to live according to natural law, yet, in this country. I'm very thankful for that. I'm so glad to live in a free country, and I hope it stays that way. I hope, with all my heart, that California's law about teaching "gay" history will not eventually translate to private schools being required to do the same, or children being taken from their parents, as is now happening in Germany. On the first question, sure, I think I'm in agreement with you, and I'm for changing the laws. My position is this: once there is a really bad law made which normalizes bad behavior, it is pretty much impossible to maintain or establish conscience clauses and the like. I would think a case like this could in theory set a precedent for a conscience clause, since you can see that serving someone who lives a lifestyle you may disapprove of is vastly different from actively helping that person to celebrate that lifestyle per se. Because of this I do not think the Vermont couple was in outright violation of the law, but again, once something is officially declared decent and good, it *will* become considered indecent to disapprove or protest in any way. I'm wondering something now...those of you who think the B & B was really violating law: If there was a center which hosted conferences of various sorts, would that center have the right to refuse to host conferences which didn't accord with the views of the people who own it? Like, if they were Democrats, and the conferences tended to be about saving the rainforests and AIDS in Africa, would they be required by law to host a conference with Rush Limbaugh as the main speaker? Re: I'm wondering something now...those of you who think the B & B was really violating law I don't think the B & B was violating the law, as I think I made clear. They should have the right to opt out of behaviour they disapprove of. I don't agree that their views that homosexuality is a sin, though, and I don't see why I should be obligated to, or why homosexual couples should be subject to official state disapproval. Re: My position is this: once there is a really bad law made which normalizes bad behavior, it is pretty much impossible to maintain or establish conscience clauses and the like. You haven't established, though, that gay sex is 'bad behavior'. It's no more intrinsically immoral that straight sex. I respect that your church thinks otherwise, but that's not a reason for me, or anyone else who isn't RC, to agree with you. Hector, I wasn't trying to establish that gay sex is bad behavior...and my question about the conference center was addressed to Glen and others who think the Vermont couple broke the law. The state has no position to say that an act is moral or immoral. A state does have position, in matters not constitutionally reserved to private individual decision, to say that an act is not acceptable in civil society. Voters and legislators may well be motivated by their respective moral codes in deciding when "there oughta be a law against it." So, the fact that the state refrains, or is restrained, from criminalizing a given act, even the fact that the state formally recognizes and licenses a given human relationship, has no impact at all on whether some churches teach that it is sinful. It is legal to drink alcohol. Muslims and some Protestant sects remain free to teach that to do so is a sin. Nobody accuses them of anti-Catholic, anti-Jewish, anti-other-Protestant, or anti-atheist bigotry. I'm sure I said this before, but just because an act is legal does not mean it is mandatory. Just because the state approves, does not mean every person has to approve, or facilitate. Animal sacrifices to the orishas by the Santeria is constitutionally protected. It does not mean that I have to sell them animals to be used in the sacrifice, nor that I have to permit them to conduct services involving human sacrifice on my premises. Government imprimatur of approval does not automatically mean that all businesses, or even all public accommodations, must offer or host what is approved. I thnk you meant "conduct animal sacrifices." I'm pretty sure human sacrifice is banned, even for religious reasons, at least for sacrifice of post-partum humans. c matt, please point out where I referred to human sacrifice. All I can find is "Animal sacrifices to the orishas by the Santeria is constitutionally protected." I have often pointed out that, just because some pagan revival wants to indulge in human sacrifice, the First Amendment does NOT protect their right to do so as the free exercise of religion. There is a viewpoint-neutral, generally applicable, law against homicide. (The law does not recognize the pre-partum condition as a person.) IF Hialeah Florida banned ALL killing of animals for ANY reason, then that generally applicable law would apply to the Santeria. It was the fact that the ordinance exempted every conceivable reason for killing animals EXCEPT religious ritual that betrayed the real purpose, denying free exercise to a given sect. (The arguments in the city council were laughable... especially the statement that "the Bible does not allow" animal sacrifice in worship.)

imtrtut VOL. NO. 8. PIERZ, flORRISON COUNTY, MINNESOTA, JANUARY, 25, 1917. No. 32 ABOUT THE STATE News of Especial Interest to Minnesota Headers. GATHERED FROM ALL SECTIONS Happenings of the Week Briefly Told for the Convenience of the Busy Reader. The St. Paul postoffice handled $12,- 726,824.35 in 1916. Charles H. Miller, pioneer hotel man of St. Paul, is dead. Mrs. Lonora Halloran, a resident of. Minneapolis since 1S54, is dead. The Banner hotel at Lamberton has been destroyed by fire, entailing a loss of ?40,000. Sam Gir'ard, seventy-eight years old, well known farmer of Crow Wing county, is dead. Mrs. Christina Hanft, aged eighty- five, who came to Minnesota in 1852, is dead at Tacoma, Wash. Oscar M. Bergstrom, inventor of many automobile appliances and a gas engine expert, is dead at Minneapolis. Malcolm W. Clark, a mining engineer,' formerly of Northfield, was killea in an automobile accident at Tulsa, Okla. With 763,832 cars in or out of Minneapolis in the year 1916 the Mill City broke all former records in freight traffic. I. M. Owene, aged ninety, was killed at a street crossing at Sleepy Eye when struck by a passenger train on the Chicago and Northwestern road. Mrs. John F. Stevens, wife of the chief engineer of the Panama canal, who formerly lived in St. Paul, is dead at her home in New York city. A large owl became wedged between two higli tension wires east of Madison Lake, formed a short circuit and cut off the lighting service of the village. J. C. Mahoney, an employe of the Minneapolis General Electric company, was electrocuted when he came into contact with a cable carrying 2,- 300 volts. Joseph Swindelhurst, a Wadena county pioneer, is dead, aged eighty- seven. Mr. Swindelhurst's first child was the second white baby born in Wadena county. Rev. William H. Barkuloo, who served in the active work of the Methodist ministry in Minnesota since 1869 until his retirement in 1910, is dead at St. PauJ. Mrs. M. H. Dunnell, widow of Mark H. Dunnell, for fourteen years congressman from the First Minnesota district, is dead at Washington. The family home is in Owatonna. Edward S. Quigley, head of the training department of the state normal school at Mankato, has accepted an election as assistant superintendent of schools at Los (Angeles, Ca}. Jospeh Kinney, nineteen years old, of Swanville, pleaded guilty in district. court at Little Falls to having shot and wounded his father and was sentenced to forty days in the county jail. Bruce R. Stone of Monticello was elected president of the Third Class Assistant Postmasters' Association of Minnesota at the first annual convention of the association at Minneapolis. John R. Anker, treasurer of the Ken- ney & Anker Mercantile company of Duluth and well known throughout the Northwest because of his lumber and mining interests, is dead in the Zenith City. Mrs. Paul Mass, twenty-three years old, committed suicide by hanging in the woodshed at the rear of her home at St. Paul. She was found by her four-year-old son, suspended from a rafter. Frederick Goodsell, pioneer resident of Northfield, for many years president of the First National bank of that city and son of Charles M. Good- sell, founder of Carleton college, is dead at Moorhead. Public ditch work in Blue Earth county in 1916 amounted to $1,006,320. In addition approximately 50,000 rods of private drain tile was laid on farms of the county to connect with the public ditches. "Wet" petitions, containing over four times the number of signatures required to put the saloon question before the voters of Duluth in April, have been turned into headquarters of the wets at Duluth. A Swedish midsummer festival will be held at Center City, ou the shores of Lake Chisago, on June 24. The festival will be attended by people of Swedish de.cent from Minnesota and North and South Dakota. Captain Alexander Smith, former St. Paul man, who became a hero by holding the fort at Altoona pass until the coming of General Sherman and his troops, was burned to death in his home at Jacksonville, 111. Dr. E. F. Spaulding, superintendent of the Minneapolis public schools, has accepted the superintendency of the Cleveland (O.) public schools at an annual salary of $12,000 for four years. His services will begin May 1. Disbarment proceedings against Thomas Mohn, an attorney of Red Wing, wore filed in the supremo court by Eli Southwick of the state beard of law examiners. Chief Justice Calvin Brown issued an order citing Mohn to appear Feb. 2 to answer the allegation that he violated his oath as an attorney. Interesting Correspondences Hillman News. Joe Leigh of Vawter, was here on business last week. Mrs. W. C. Penniman and children left last Thursday for Dora Lake, where they will visit the former's parents, Mr. and Mrs. O. C. Leigh, before leaving for their new home in Anaconda, Mont. Has any one been missing any grain lately. Bert Sanborn was seen delivering some at the station at day-break two days last week. Ben Drews hauled posts from Andrew Markusons' Saturday. R. C. Bethel left Saturday for a trip to the twin cities. Rev. Upton, of Onamia, and Rev. Scotten, of Willmar, were with us Monday and Tuesday. Rev. Upton preached a fine sermon in the school house each evening. They went to Rucker on Wednesday for services there. Bert Sanborn, of Holstein Park, and William Drews went to Pierz on the passenger Tuesday. Mr. Aug. Drews returned Tuesday from Little Palls, where she had been for some time with her daughter, Miss Marie, who is a patient in St. Gabriel's hospital there. What has happened to the Holstein Park correspondent, or has the Park been vacated? Brainerd Suffers Heavy Fire Loss. Brainerd,— Willaim Gearney and T. S. Land are missing today and it is thought that they lost their lives in the fire which destroyed the Antler hotel in this city last night. The cause of the blaze is unknown and the fire was not discoverd until well under way. The total loss is estimated at about $50,000. The hotel is a total loss. Others who suffered damage were the Dulutk Brewing Company, W. Shange, Joseph Sebert, Louis Dromen and J. Shaffer. Rucker News. Kick From Cow Breakes a Leg. Herman Ostendorf, living 4 miles east of Freeport, is suffering with a broken leg. Mr. Ostendorf was driving the cattle out of the barn Saturday when one of the animals kicked him on the right leg breaking the member below the knee. Mr. Ostendorf is 65 years of age, but is reported as getting along nicely, although it will lay him up for some time. Mrs. Ernest Goble visitedMrs. Matt Pint last Friday afternoon. Leigh Teachout went to Pierz Friday and to Hillman Saturday afternoon. Mrs. S. D. Wood and daughter, Mrs. Roy Probasco, called at the Goble and Bruber homes Friday afternoon. We certainly experienced an old fashioned Minnesota blizzard Sunday. It snowed hard all day and a strong northeast wind piled the snow up in fine j style. There were about thirty-five in attendance at the dance given Saturday evening by Mr. and Mrs. John Ferguson and a very pleasant time is reported. Mrs. Gates and niece, Miss Ethel Tuey and Mr. and Mrs. John Dorman and boys were callers at Hillman Saturdeiy. One married young lady in our neighborhood ought to have a prize for early rising as well as kind deeds to her neighbors. One morning last week she got breakfast for her "gude man" and herself and did up morning work, then went to her nearest neighbor and finding them still asleep, built a fire in the kitchen stove to make it warm and nice for them. We call that real goodness of heart these cold mornings. Miss Pleasant Loop spent a few clays at home the latter part of last week, returning Saturday, just in time to take in the dance. We understand that there is considerable opposition all along the line to the new star route proposed from Hillman— the majority preferring the present route from Pierz to having their mail changed. Matt Pint went to Sullivan again Monday to resume his work of making posts. Miss Pleasant Loop returned to the Pint hom^ on Monday. Tracy Waller went to Lastrup Monday. Was Found Not Guilty. Eugene Tuft, the young man, in a fight with whom Leo Webber lost his life last fall, was found not guilty. The fact remains that Webber and Tuft fought and that Webber died from the effects of a wound received during the fight. The wound was made with an instrument which might have been a screw-driver. A screw-driver was found where the tight occurred. Pretty good circumstantial evidence. Yet the jury found him not guilty. According to that, you cannot convict a man for shooting another, by eye witness' testimony, because they didn't see tbe bullet. The St. Cloud Times says: "There is a growing belief that Leo Webber was not killed. The jury is responsible for this rumor. There are few greater uncertainties in life than a jury." Leo Schoeuberg and wife of Elrosa, and Henry Virnig of St. Cloud, feft by Soo line Tuesday morning after a short visit at the Mrs. Peter Virnig home- That snowstorm last Sunday covered almost the whole state with a good thick blanket of snow. Minneapolis reports a fall of 17 inches, which, is said to be the hea- vest fall on record. Grain And Produce Market Report Wheat, No. 1, $1.75 Wheat, No. 2__ 1.71 Wheat, No. 3___ 1,63 Flax, 2.60 Barley. 95-1.00 Rye 1.27 Oats 5_. Ear Corn 90 Hay 7.00 Butter, Creamery ,.. 40 Dairy 27 Eggs [30 Flour, Royal — 5.00 " WhiteRose 4.90 Low grade flour 2.25 Bran 1.60 Shorts 1.70 Cracked Corn 80 pounds 1.75 Ground Feed 1.75 Beans _____ 5.00 Onions 2.50 Rural Carrier Examination. The United States Civil Service Commission has announced an examination for the county of Morrison, Minnesota, to be held at Little Falls, on February 24th, 1917, to fill the position of rural carrier at Hillman and Bowlus, and vacancies that may later occur on rural routes from other post offices in the above mentioned county. The examination will be open only to male citizens who are actually domiciled in the territory of a post office in the county and who meet the other requirements set forth in Form No. 1977. This form and application blanks may be obtained from the offices mentioned above or from the United States Civil Service Commission at Washington, D. C. Applications should be forwarded to the Commission at Washington at the earliest practicable date. Warning to R. F. 0. Patrons. The R. F. D. carriers complain that in certain sections patrons are not doing their duty in keeping the roads open to facilitate the delivery of mail. Such sections will be cut out, they say, if conditions are not remedied. At their request, the Journal publishes the following articles bearing on this phase of the service from Postal Laws and Regulations: Roads on which rural-delivery service is established shall be in good condition and so main- t ained. unobstructed by gates, and there shall be no unbridged streams not ford able at all seasons of the year. Each box should be erected on the road regularly traveled by a rural mail carrier and such position as to be easily and safely accessible tor the delivery and collection of mail by the carrier without leiiying his conveyance. Patrons should keep clear the approaches to their boxes by prompt reinovel of snowdrifts or other obstructions by which the delivery of mail into them would be rendered impossible or difficult without the carrier leaving his conveyance. Holstein Park News. Clarence King called at the Jim King home Wednesday. Mr. and Mrs. chas. Sanborn called at F. Somers Saturday. ' Nellie Martin and Ruby Thompson cleaned school house Friday. Bert Sanborn was a Hillman visitor Friday. Alice Perkins of Rucker is visiting at the E. M. Thompson home. Willian Burnham was a Pierz visitor Friday. Mrs. E. M. Thompson is visiting friends and relatives in Es- therville, Iowa. Several from this way attended the dance at John Ferguson's Saturday evening. E, M. Thompson and William Burnham called at T. S. Look's Saturday. J. L. Judge and crew will leave for Benson Friday.- Worst Blizzard Of The Season Not for years has this section been visited by a worse storm than that of Saturday night and Sunday. It is estimated that 17 inches of snow fell and as the storm was accompanied by a high wind, the snow was piled in high drifts, making traveling in the rural sections almost impossible. Following tbe storm the thermometer took a sudden plunge downward and Monday morning at 8 o'clock 20 below zeso was registered. The church attendance was very light Sunday morning. Peter Meyer Had A Close Call While talking about guns, hounds, wolves and about hunting in general, Peter Meyer, the blacksmith, dropped into a reminiscent mood and told this story: "A number of years ago while working in a lumber camp, 12 miles east, I was sent to town one evening on an errand. I did not start on the return trip until about 10 o'clock- The night was dark and a fairly stiff northwest wind urged me into a brisk walk, which was sometimes quickened into a run, to keep me warm. After crossing Hillman creek, near the present site of the bridge, a wolf's long howl from across Tomala's hill broke the silence of the night. This gave me no little uneasiness as the dismal and blood-curling howl was almost straight ahead. After examining my rifle to see that the repeater was in working order, I decided not to turn back. Presently another wolf gave signal by a shrill howl close behind me. I kept up a dog-trot for the next mile or two. By that time no less than about 25 wolves were in signal communication with one another all around me. They seemed to work in a circle and coming closer. When about a mile from the, camp, where the road lead through a ravine and where overhanging boughs made it doubly dark and ominous, I could hear the wolves cracking the underbrush as they crouched around preparing for an attack. The odds were heavily against me, but being so close to the camp, I hazarded a shot in the direction of the closest one. The report of the gun had a magical effect, for their feast song came to an end before the reverberation of the shot had died away among the pines. That ended their howls for that night. What would have happened if the camp had been a mile further away, I do not know. It is more than likely however that I should not now be here to hammer an anvil chorus, or relate this tale." The creamery well is still uncertain of its fate. Dynamite has been used in large quantities to dislodge the obstructions in the casings, but without results. The prevailing opinion is that digging a new well is the only remedy for the existing trouble. Local Happenings Ofjhe Week. Poor roads. That Sunday storm put the quietus on the au tos for this season. Chattel mortgage blanks for sale at Journal office. H. C. Smith of Sullivan spent Tuesday night in Pierz. Leo Bently is canvassing this end of the county in the interest of The Transcript. The Columbia auto bus was conrpelled last Monday to resign in favor of the horses. The contract to haul the ice for the Farmers' Creamery was let to John Banach lor $115.00. Monday morning was the coldest one of the season. While not the coldest one in! fact—28 below—it was the coldest in feeling. John Mamer and wife of New Trier, and N. J. Terhaar of Avon, spent Sunday here at the B. G. Terhaar home. i Chas. W. Bouck of Royal-1 ton, member of the legisla-j ture from this district is re-j ported to be very sick with pneumonia. i Mr. and Mrs. Theo. Cross returned home from Stearns Co. last we,ek after visiting ! friends and relatives there for several days. Felix Kobilka, son of John Kobilka of lower town has bought the interest of his father-in-law, Joseph Med- ved, in the Little Falls house FORETOLD BY DREAMS, And now it is certain that the indi ans and muskratsi have lost their reputations! as weather prophets. The bark is no "longer loose on the trees—it is frozen on solid as a stone. Steve Preimesberger, Tony V. Hartmann and John Gau went out huntiug jack rabbits the other day and got: one. And yet they say the country is full of 'em. The man who was falsely accused will soon come to Pierz. Watch next week's Journal for particulars, Pete Bares ventured a trip to Little Falls Sunday morning.. He made the inward trip in 40 minutes, but had to give in on the way home when he reached Christ Fausts' place. The good uncle hauled him home through the drifts. The jurors who came home Saturday night for an over Sunday visit were in a dilemma Monday morning. When they left the county seat Saturday under promise that they would return for service Monday, the storm was 'not taken into account. However, when the auto bus failed to show up Monday morning, they scurried a- round and found someone to drive them in. It is hoped that a lenient judge did not fine them for contempt of court. Two Singular Cases In Which Slea$ Warnings Came True. "I dreamed that the ship was in' a heavy sea, that a big wave came over her bows, pressed down upon her, and then she rolled over on her starboard side and disappeared." This is not an extract fr-dta a story. It is evidence, given on oath, during the inquiry at London into the mysterious disappearance of the Waratah, the vessel which, on her second voyage mysteriously disappeared in, July, 1909, and has never been heard of since. And so impressed was the passenger with the vision that he left the vessel at Durban, from which point she continued on her ill fated voyage. Thus one more was added to the extraordinary coincidences in which dreams have figured. The third Lord Waterford was able to verify a story of an extraor- fiinary dream coming true. Talking one day with the landlord of the inn in the village close to Curragh- more, a man rushed up and said there had been a murder on the hills. "Then it must he the little one," said the landlord, at which Lord Waterford, not unnaturally, became very suspicious. The laud- lord proceeded to explain that in the night he dreamed that two men had come to the inn and that the taller of the two had murdered the shorter with a very curious knife. He told his dream to his .wife, who laughed at him. But, to his horror, the men he had seen while asleep came to the inn, and one used the curious knife to cut up his food. They left, and soon afterward news of the murder arrived. Search was made for a tall man answering to the landlord's description, and one was quickly arrested. In prison he confessed he had murdered his short companion.—Pearson's Weekly. Humbug. The word "humbug" had its origin as follows: Among the many issues of base coin made from time to time in Ireland there was none so worthless as that made by James II. at the Dublin mint. It was made of whatever metal was the easiest to get, lead, copper, pewter or brass, and so low was its intrinsic value that 20 shillings of it v.as worth only twopence sterling. The soft mixed metal of which that worthless coin was composed was known to the Irish as "uimbog," pronounced oombog, meaning soft copper or worthless money. Thus the phrase 'Tiumbug" originated by a person saying: "That is a piece of uim-bog." "Don't try to pass off your uim-bog on me."—Exchange. A Big Difference. From the parlor there came a crash that brought the careful housekeeper downstairs at unusual speed. "Sarah," she said, "did you break something?" "Yes, ma'am." "What was it?" "One of those green vases, ma'am. But it only broke in two pieces." "You stupid girl," said the careful housekeeper. "It is gone, so what difference does it make whether it is in two pieces or two hundred ?" "All the difference in the world, ma'am, as you would soon find out if you had to pick up the pieces," said Sarah.—Exchange. When Love Got a Chill. "Chrissie and me have had a row," said the young man, murdering grammar in the intensity of his grief. "Why, what's up ?" "Well, you know Chrissie's a schoolteacher, and—I mean I can stand a bit, but there's a limit." | "I don't understand. What's the! trouble exactly ?" "Why,- I promised to meet her! last night at 7 under the clock, andj I couldn't get there till 7:30. Andj when I arrived—would you believe! it?—she asked me if I'd brought a| written ' excuse from my mother, j Isn't that enough to put anybody! off ?"—Exchange. Lake In a Volcanic Ring. On the island of Ninafow, half-j way between Fiji and Samoa, is a| volcanic ring inclosing a crater con- j raining a lake two miles in diame-j ter. Toward the sea the ring is j bordered with walls of black cliffs j 200 to 300 feet in height. An erup- j tion in 1SS6 formed a peninsula on- the eastern side of the lake. While j the ocean outside is trembling and j thundering under a heavy wind the' lake remains smooth or is simply wrinkled with ripples or wavelets. » Did Him Honor, "Did you read that interview with Dubwaite in the morning paper ?" "'Yes. If s positively brilliant. I had no idea Dubwaite was such a smart man." "Ifeither did he.' I hear he wants to present the reporter who wrote it with a suit of clothes."—Birmingham A_re-Herald. Don't Forget to attend the social DANCE at Faust's flail, held Monday, January 29th, 1917, Object Description Description Add tags for page 1

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This month my brother, Luke Nichols and his lovely wife Becca, came to visit and during one of several interesting conversations we had he spoke of his experiences as a criminal defense attorney in the Washington D.C. area. Through his work he's seen some of the consequences of teenagers sexting (and if you don't know what sexting is, just ask any teen) and he has volunteered time at youth centers to warn teens of the dangers they face when the law gets involved. You may already know of the dangers this new phenomenon poses to the morality of our children and society but you ought also to know of the legal dangers children face if caught--and if they have a cell phone I can pretty much guarantee you that they've have experience in the area already. Luke joins us as a guest poster and legal opinion on the subject and you can read more about sexting on his website at Spectrum Legal Defense. P.S. Don't let the picture distract you--I just wanted a picture of Luke and this one of Lillian and him goofing it up and celebrating their fishing success cracks me up. What Is Sexting? While the moral, psychological, and religious implications of sexting deserves their own discussion, I am a criminal defense attorney and what I am qualified to tell you is 1) that sexting is rampant and 2) sexting can land a child in prison for years. Sexting, or sexual texting, is an epidemic that involves using the internet and usually camera phones to share sexually explicit photos, text, and video. While not all youths are willful participants in this seedy conduct, the popularity of camera phones now means that nearly all young people are exposed to sexting whether they like it or not. Legally speaking, the problem is that sexting is the wholesale production and distribution of child pornography within our homes and schools. When a fourteen year-old boy takes picture of his thirteen year-old girlfriend’s breast he has committed felony production of child pornography and the separate felony of possession of child pornography. If that young man or any of his friends display, copy, or share that image then they are guilty of a third felony, distribution of child pornography. If that boy or anyone else requested or enticed the minor to expose her breasts he may also be guilty of aggravated sexual battery or felony child molestation among other crimes. While each state is different, there are few places in the US were child pornography and other sex crimes against minors are not ruthlessly punished and prosecuted. Parents should also keep in mind that because the internet crosses state lines child pornography is frequently prosecuted in federal courts as a federal crime. In some states, the maximum punishment for just production of child pornography is 30 years in an adult prison facility. What is more onerous, in many states each photo can result in a separate charge, so that a young man or woman who takes multiple photos will be charged with multiple counts of production, possession, and distribution. One of my more recent juvenile clients was caught with twelve pictures of his naked seventeen year-old girlfriend. He was charged will twelve counts of possession of child pornography and faces up to sixty years in jail. So How Big of a Deal Is It? The mistake that most adults make is that they do not realize how serious these crimes are. The first sexting case I ever worked on involved a seventeen year-old boy who used his camera phone to take a video of his naked thirteen year little brother and friend during a hazing prank. Even though the boys willingly went along with the hazing and even though my client was not accused of intending anything sexual (just humiliation) my client was charged with two counts of aggravated sexual battery for enticing two minors to take their clothes off, one count of production of child pornography, one count of possession, and one count of distribution after he showed the video to his friends. Those charges allowed the court to try the young man as an adult and carried a maximum penalty of 104 years in prison and a mandatory minimum of 15 years in prison. The boy was fortunately only found guilty of some of the charges and was sentenced to 3 years in prison. But My Kid Doesn't Sext . . . What I find so disturbing about sexting is just how common it is, yet the only adults who seem to understand this are the police and prosecutors. One recent trial for possession of child pornography involved a young man in his late teens. The police were chatting with this young man when the officers asked to see his cell phone. The officers searched the phone and discovered a naked photo of the teen’s seventeen year-old girlfriend. When I asked the officer why he searched his phone the officer looked at me like I was an idiot and said “All teenagers have naked photos of their girlfriends on their cell phone." While the officer’s statement is somewhat of an overstatement, I have since discovered that he was not far off the mark. In the last year, I have since started speaking with high school students and teen intervention groups about the dangers of sexting and I have consistently found the practice of sexting utterly unchecked by adults. Every time I speak at a school about sexting, without fail many of the young men laugh or brag about the practice openly in front of their teachers or supervisors and almost none of the youth are unfamiliar with it. Getting a naked photo of a girl is simply “first base” for too many young men now days. While the girls’ attitudes about sexting are not usually so cocky or jovial they are equally as exposed to the practice. In the short time I have been speaking to youths I have heard too many accounts of young girls being forcibly exposed and photographed by young men with camera phones at school. Often, these girls have said nothing about these attacks because, like the young men, they think that shoving a camera phone up a girl’s skirt and posting it on the web is a mean prank not a felony. Many of the youths I speak to are good kids who feel no attraction to sexting, but they are still exposed to it. With a few clicks their friends and often distant acquaintances send them dirty photos. Naked photos of fellow class mates are now the new medium for youths to boast about their conquests or to humiliate and shame one another. While certain girls in my high school did things in private for attention, similar young women of this generation can garnish the wrong kind of attention from hundreds of boys with a camera phone and 30 seconds. Few teenagers today have not been exposed to child pornography via sexting, and what they don’t realize is that the simple possession of those materials is a felony regardless of whether they approve of or despise the practice. Sexting Is a Loaded Gun or a Pound of Cocaine Legally speaking, child pornography is no different than guns and drugs. If you are caught with it, it doesn’t matter what your intentions were, you are going to jail. Additionally, most people do not realize that putting child pornography in your computer’s trash bin does not solve the problem. If there is any way you can retrieve the pornographic photo after you have deleted it, then you are still in possession. Many courts have taken this to extremes and will find possession even if retrieving the images requires a computer expert. A common example includes the temporary files created on your computer when you view images on the internet. The police catch online pedophiles by monitoring sites which contain child pornography. They accumulate data on who has viewed the photos and when they finally shut down the site they round up all the visitors’ computers and have computer forensic scientist retrieve the temporary files created by surfing the internet. Many of the social networking sites and chat rooms popular with youth contain indecent photos of minors, and the law does not distinguish between an internet user who ogles young girls and one who was is simply reading their friend’s online profile. If it is on your computer, you are in trouble. When teachers ask me what they should do when (not if) they find child pornography on their students' phones I tell them to treat it like a loaded gun or a kilo of cocaine. Don’t handle it. Don’t examine it. Just call security or the police immediately! No matter what happens, never ever give a child their phone or computer back if you know there is any pornography on it. Giving pornography (not just child pornography) to a minor is a serious crime and I am not aware of any law that makes exceptions for giving a kid back their own pictures. It Can Come Back to Haunt Them Inevitably, when I discuss sexting with youths, there are those who balk at my cautions because they don’t think they will ever get in trouble. Everyone around them is doing it so why worry? What they don’t realize is that sexting is a new problem. Adults are learning and each year the numbers of children arrested grow as more people report incidents to law enforcement. Also, in many state there is no statute of limitation for these types of felonies. This means that the government can bring charges against a person 20 years after the crime was committed if they want to. Many child molesters are prosecuted only after their victims are grown and come forward as adults. Likewise, a young man who coerces a young woman to expose herself may not get reported to police until the girl has grown and has become old enough to know that what was done to her was illegal. I tell young men that when they take dirty photos of a girl, that girl has complete control over their fate. If she ever gets angry and wants to hurt them all she has to do pick up the phone and call the police. However, the more common way youths are being arrested is when their dirty photos are passed around until a responsible adult sees the pictures and calls the police. All the police have to do is threaten the last sender with felony possession and distribution of child pornography unless they tell them where they got the photos. Getting teenagers and parents to talk is easy when children are facing up to 10-20 years in prison. Some police are also searching phones as a regular part of criminal investigations. One of my young clients was falsely accused of assault and battery after defending himself from a gang attack. When he was arrested the police inventoried his possession and discovered multiple dirty photos of his underage girlfriend on his cell phone. The police quickly realized that he was the real victim and dropped the assault and battery charges; however, they went forward with over ten counts of felony possession of child pornography. Is There Any Protection? Obviously sexting is dangerous, but the real question is: what can be done to protect children? To parents, I would like to point out the vast majority of the sexting cases involve camera phones, and I cannot think of a reason that a sixteen year old needs a camera on their phone. Additionally, I think half of my clients are in trouble because of whom they associate with. Know your children’s online and real world friends. There are only two ways I know of to find out who your child associates with online: either you monitor their online activity or you ask them (I recommend both). Finally, there is no substitute for talking openly and frankly to your children about the consequences of sexting. And while I can only address the legal ramifications, it is up to parents to weigh in on the moral, emotional, and religious implications of online sexual activity. And if all of that fails, liquidate their college fund and hire a good attorney. Sponsored by Sorella Jewelry Studio for fine personalized jewelry. 48 comments: My kids are too young to have cell phones or even ask for one. (And after this article, I'm not sure they'll ever have one.)(At least, not for a long, long time.) But man, this is important stuff. Thank you! Sent here by Kelly. This solidifies my desire to keep my kids phone free as long as possible. Thank you for this information. I'll be passing it on. Thank you for this excellent article! I have posted it on FB for my friends. My 15 year old daughter would like to have a phone, of course, but so far there is no need for it. i'm posting this on FB. thanks for the info! Thank you so much for this information. I never knew...! WOW!!!! Scary stuff!!!! I hadn't even thought about any of that before. Fortunately my girls are only 2 and 5 so I have a while until they get cell phones... but this is so terrifying. I had no idea of all the legal ramifications and I'm sure the mother's of most teens have no idea either. Thank you for publishing this post. GREAT point about not needing a camera on a phone. Actually, great points all around. My daughter is only 2, so I can only imagine the dangers we'll face in 10 years. But it's good to stay educated along the way, even if it seems like our time for dealing with this is so far off! A boy in my daugther's class had a naked photo of a girl and was telling/showing fellow classmates it was my daughter. It was not my child and my daughter was so freaked out that she went to the administration. They did nothing (they did look at the photo)and when my husband spoke to the asst. prinicipal about it, the matter was bascially disimissed. Forgot to add that the photo was on his phone. Very few of the criminal cases I have seen were intialized by teachers or administrators. This is frankly dangerous behavior for teachers who are coming in contact with child porn. AN asst principle in a local county was recently charge with poss of child porn after he confiscated dirty photos from boy in the school as part of a sextibg crack down. He got into trouble because the priciples didn't report anything. The charges were eventually dismissed but only after $150,000 in legal fees and a year of his life were gone. Wonderful article- I'm passing along to my friend who is also a middle school teacher- she's already had some experience in this area sadly. Steph As a teacher, I've passed every instance of sexting along to my superiors. Unfortunately, by and large, no one wants to deal with it. Either the kids aren't called downstairs in a timely manner (i.e. enough time for them to delete said pictures) or the they're given second chances. This has led to a middle school where, ultimately, I believe the majority of students ARE sexting. It's frustrating and I wish that parents would step up and see that their children don't need smart phones and they DO need to check their children's text messages, every single day. It's certainly not limited to any one group of kids, either. They don't think of the ramifications and don't realize that sending a nude picture IS wrong. It's so sad. It falls into the "...can't happen to me" immortal feeling of being a teen. "Everybody does it" doesn't hold up in court. Thank you for the straightforward summary! An eye-opener, to be sure. Thanks for this valuable informatoin. Well with kids 6 and under I was totally naive to the existence of any of this. I have sent this on! Thanks so much for the article. I oppose any force, coercion, or manipulation in getting anything from anyone, especially minors. That said, This writer is so excited he found a way to prosecute young people who are intending no harm. Let's not conflate real predators and abusers with every teen with a naked photo on his or her phone. I've heard of teens being accused of producing child pornography for photographing themselves! This is clearly an unintended consequence of a good intentioned law. Shame on cops who use any excuse to search a teen's phone for incriminating evidence. I guess I should thank the author for pointing out this horrible miscarriage of justice. But I wish the lesson was one of changing the system, not scaring parents. It reminds me of when a community found an old law prohibiting untethered horse carts and used it to outlaw skateboards. Only in that case the worst that would happen was a fine, he is talking about jail time! The answer is we need to discourage abusive behavior with reason and proportion, not put innocent kids or adults in jail. This is pathetic. Scholz - you probably didn't read the preface close enough. The writer is a DEFENSE ATTORNEY - NOT a PROSECUTOR. He is defending these teens. While I agree that at times maybe the punishment is too severe, do you really want to say that someone who is distributing naked photos of underage children are innocent? Most kids today have no concept of accountability. Besides - when does it become OK to distribute naked photos of someone? Where do YOU want to draw the line? Is it OK if the person in the photo agrees? If the person you're sending the photo to agrees? That's the same argument that against statutory rape. Children can't by law give consent for those types of things. You say these individuals are intending no harm. Would you still be defending it if it was your 13 year old daughter and her boyfriend was showing nude photos of her to all his friends? Outlawing skateboards is completely different and shame on you for thinking that skateboarding and distributing pornography are equal wrongs. Its attitudes like yours that contribute to this problem and encourage teens to think that this is OK behavior. Carinne, I am arguing that child pornography laws are designed to protect children from abusive adults. Of course, there are going to be gray areas, how old is adult or child etc. Is there coercion, is there pressure, etc.. I agree that statutory rape is an interesting case. I would argue that cases of consensual photo exchanges be treated roughly the same. I am not an attorney, so I don't know the exact penalties. But many states have Romeo and Juliet provisions so that similarly ages teens (or pre-teens) who give (non-legal) consent, and do not press charges against the other, are held to have committed less serious offense than when an adult abuses a child. The idea that one should continue punish an adult who as a teen fooled around with her boyfriend is pretty absurd (especially if neither complains). Likewise the idea that one should be as holding onto child pornography as an adult for pictures taking consensually as a teen. If my daughters send nude pictures to anyone, I would be pretty angry. Do I think the person who receives the pictures should go to jail, if it isn't an adult? No. I would want to talk to all those involved, and their parents. Just like if I catch them having sex before age 18. I wouldn't send them to jail, unless the elements of abuse, force or coercion where there, would you? Scholtz- The point is that when you're dealing with digital photos, video, text, etc there is no way to control it. Someone takes a nude photo of their underage girlfriend, 1) there is no way to really know/prove that he actually had her consent and wasn't coerced and 2) once its digital it can suddenly be distributed all over the internet and it will never be contained or disappear. That's a horrible thing to have happen to someone against their will, knowledge, consent,etc. I still stand by my statement that by defending the behavior you're contributing to it. Yeah Scholz I only use the law unjustly against minors when there is a pay check attached. No pro Bono tyranny for me : ) There is however a sticky point to this debate. There are two main reasons for the Strictness of child porn laws. 1) it is to prevent the sexual exploitation of child during the production of this material and 2) protect children by banning material which may arrose or even cause pedophilic-addiction or behaviors. Then ask, is the exploitation of children via sexting compareable to that of traditional child porn? And does child porn produced via sexting distinguishable from the traditional type once it's been posted on the Internet etc.? I think there are legislative solutions to these problems but frankly its politically dangerous to lead the charge softening child porn laws and I believe that a significant part of the USA is not sad about the current state of the law regarding child porn....or skate boarding. I am going to leave the discussion. I think there are some interesting issues. I hope people continue to discuss it. Carrine accused me of supporting child pornography, and I can't have a meaningful discussion in that context, especially after I clearly said I opposed that. She also asked how I'd feel if my daughters were photographed nude presumably against their wills. I will leave her to think about what she'd do if she found one naked picture on her 15 year old son's phone. I can only assume she would report him to the local, state and federal authorities. If she didn't she would be as bad as me! Scholz Sorry I offended you. I never accused you of supporting child pornography. I accused you of adding to the problem by saying 'there is no problem'. I guess I was just amazed that someone would think this was all 'no big deal'. Maybe I read your original comment in the wrong way. I took issue with 2 things you said in your original comment: "This writer is so excited he found a way to prosecute young people who are intending no harm. Let's not conflate real predators and abusers with every teen with a naked photo on his or her phone." 1st - you were accusing the writer of something that he clearly was not doing. He's defending these kids - not trying to find ways to prosecute them. 2nd - the fact that you said they aren't intending harm and those who distribute nude photos and video against someone's will or consent or (in many cases) knowledge are not real predators. Your statement is the reason why these kids do this. They don't believe its a big deal, wrong, illegal or harmful. By declaring that not only is it not harmful but also shouldn't be prosecuted, you are contributing to the problem. I'm still amazed by that. I caught the tail of the comments late here but maybe I can help, Scholz--I think you maybe misread things because the writer isn't involved in prosecuting teens but defending. He's a defense attorney. Besides that, he works with intervention groups to educate teens about what the laws say and the risks teens run when they sext. However, you are correct when you say that some states have different laws and different penalities. It's a state issue except when prosecuted as a felony, such as when it crosses state lines. This post isn't really a comment on the morality of the law itself but a caution of one more reason that sexting is a dangerous affair. It's not really fair to insinuate how a parent may or may not feel if their child were exploited and it, too is off point (Carinne). Personally? I support stiff laws against pornography, drugs, etc. but do understand that when you have these stiff penalities--particularly with mandatory minimum sentencing and things like that--that you run the risk of over punishing and creating criminals through running decent kids who made dumb-yet-illegal mistakes through the penal system. Unfortunately the system is flawed and the closer you come to trying to prepare for all eventualities the more you get diminishing returns. But again, that's not really the point here--it's merely to show parents that sexting is legally dangerous. If this post wakes parents up to the things their kids are facing nowadays then I think it's been useful. Information is never a bad thing--and then if people such as you, Scholz, feel the laws are wrong then at least with a bit of knowledge they can lobby to have them changed, right? If nothing else it may help us all to get an interest in what our own state's particular laws are on the subject and become better informed. Thanks for your comments. Thank you for bringing attention to this issue - this generation of kids is far more tech savvy than we will ever be. It goes to show how important it is to talk openly with your kids, to listen, and to check up on them. As a mother of teen boys, this is a major issue. Kids are clueless as to the ramifications of this particular activity. Not only should every parent read this, but every teenager with a cell phone! Even though you are required to purchase a data plan if you buy a certain phone, you can still block both texting AND data from any phone on your plan. I blocked ALL data from our phones, and all texting on kids' phones. If Verizon is going to require data plans, then I won't have a Verizon phone anymore after this contract is up, though as I refuse to pay for something I don't use. I really think the law should be tweeked when it comes to minors and their girl/boyfriends. AFter all, in the '70's, it was boys with their parents' polaroid cameras taking pics of their girlfriends. Granted it didn't get distributed to the whole world via the internet, but it got shown around the local high school. This is not a "new sin", but the technology adds some very dangerous elements. glad to be visited in this blog.. Here is a link to another blog article I did on how to use cell carrier parental controls and available parental monitoring services. Luke Nichols Michelle, You would think this would be easy to control. Have the phone carriers block a phones ability to send pictures via text messaging. The main problem is that these kids will still find other ways of distributing the pictures if not by cell phone, than digital pictures on their cameras and swapping memory sticks with their friends. This is just one of the circumstances where technology is being used for criminal activities and not at all for what we designed it for. Love and Hugs ~ Kat Sentence that really stood out to me: "What I find so disturbing about sexting is just how common it is, yet the only adults who seem to understand this are the police and prosecutors." Wake up, parents! Such an important issue...one that cannot be ignored. Thanks for getting these conversations going in homes across America. stephanie@metropolitanmama.net thanks for this article and to Luke for taking the time and effort to tell kids about the dangers. I agree that sexting, AKA 'sxting' is a huge problem, but it is more of an all-around problem. This article seems slanted more towards the idea that boys are the main culprit in this situation. With lines like: " ... young girls being forcibly exposed and photographed by young men ... " and, "I tell young men that when they take dirty photos of a girl, that girl has complete control over their fate." In all fairness it should be stated that in certain cases it isn't always the implied boy who is the sole aggressor, forcing the female into situations that she doesn't want to be in or doesn't understand. In some cases it is the girls themselves that instigate the so-called sexting, sending a photo -- unasked for -- directly to the boy. Whether or not they think they are just being sexy, flirty, or even if they think that is what "couples" do for each other, it simply isn't always the fault of the young man in these cases. Some girls try to emulate the activities of their other female friends, sort of a "so and so sent a dirty photo to her BF, so I should do the same for mine" type of situation. I'm only bringing this up so that it isn't just the parents of young boys who feel the responsibility to stop this sort of thing. Let your daughters know as well that sending off photos like that isn't just unacceptable, it's illegal. I worked in the Anchorage school district for years, and I've seen this sort of activity among students as early as middle school, and that was some years back. I can only imagine how much worse it is now, with most kids carrying photos these days. By the way, while I'm here I might as well add my two cents about another long-standing problem, which is webcams. I'm sure all parents are aware by now of the dangers of letting your children go onto the internet unsupervised, but what you may not be familiar with is some of the new technology that makes it easier than ever for a child to get themselves into a dangerous situation. There are websites these days that let you instantly start up a webcam show for a limitless group of strangers. A few clicks of the mouse and your kids could be the star of their own public cam show, and many of the viewers might be predators. You don't have to actually purchase a separate camera these days, often they are built directly into laptops and netbooks, and some parents aren't even aware that the webcam is there. Again, this isn't the behavior of years ago where you had to physically "add" someone to your MSN, or Yahoo programs before you could talk and webcam, these are simply internet sites that interact with the camera - and some of these newer sites are "anonymous", meaning you don't know who you are talking to until the video starts (and then in MANY cases your child will suddenly realize there is a naked adult on the screen). This is a newer trend, and I'm sure your teens have already heard and probably participated in it, even if they didn't anticipate the chance they might see things they had no desire to see. Just ask them if they've ever heard of "Stick AM", or "Chatroulette". Technology is changing so fast, it's hard to keep on top of this stuff. Just be aware. Wow, a very good article. Lots of info that I had no idea about. Thank you for posting this.. My fifteen and twelve year old's have been lobbying for phones for a while now. And, seriously, they are the only kids know who don't have their own phones. I have a hard enough time keeping up with their facebook pages, which I do allow them to have since there are so many adult friends and family members on there also who keep an eye on the content. I appreciate this article, it gave me a lot to think and talk about with my kids. Interesting! Thanks for the informative article! I just saw this "related" article today in my local paper...! Funny, we recently got a cell for our daughter and these concerns were/are very real for me. We even typed up a contract and made her sign it...it's hanging in our kitchen so that we can refer to it often. I told my daughter it's not even that I don't trust her it's that I know the part of her brain that controls logic and reasoning isn't fully developed yet so things she might think are good ideas could have some hefty consequences. My 14 year old has had a cell phone for 2 years now. We just got texting for them this year. I love the texting, but yeah am really debating on dropping the picture sharing capability she has for this reason. I did send her this link when I found it and told her if she didn't read it I was taking the phone away completely. So, after some flack, she at least read it, so at least she knows about it. Now if only she will keep a level head. Yeah, I know, I can dream right? Thank you - this information is really important. We have three boys and I am sure that in some way this issue will raise itself. I am already amazed by what I see kids send as text messages to each other - not necessarily explicit but offensive in other ways. A related area which is on the rise is the bullying via mobile phone (cellphone). We've not had this experience but I know other people who have. I think as parents we need to talk more to our kids about what they can do if they receive any threatening or uncomfortable text messages on their phone. Something I think about often is not over-reacting. If teens think their parents have a tendency to over-react to information then they are even less likely to tell us that they are receiving disturbing text messages. But back to sexting - I guess this has become prevalent because it's a facade or protection behind which self-conscious teenagers can hide - or where it is bullying, then it's an opportunity for the bully to try and hide behind the technology. We have allowed our two young teens to have 'phones but we are vigilant about their use and we try to talk to them about what they may and may not do with it. One thing we are clear on is that it is not okay to take ANY kind of picture with your phone and send it anywhere (let alone Facebook) without permission. We've talked about privacy and legal issues - but it's fair to say that there are no guarantees. I have my fingers crossed and will keep the communication lines open in hope! Thanks for this, Michelle. I'll be sending this to all of my friends! Our kids are on the young side (mostly 7-11 year olds,) and don't have phones yet but this is SO important to know going forward. I'm grateful you posted this. It's very interesting to see where people fall out on this subject. --A thought: Just because this is an "old" sin, does that make it okay? And why on earth do we feel sorry for boys who take pictures of their girlfriends, even with consent (or vice-versa), and then distribute it to friends *knowing* that there is no way to stop it once it gets out there? I have absolutely NO SYMPATHY for ANYONE exploiting ANYONE, regardless of AGE or RELATIONSHIP. Teenagers have always had sex, that doesn't mean it's right, and that doesn't mean that I condone it. My kids are too young to have their own phones, but when the time comes, they will be getting phones without picture-taking features! BTW, can a teen refuse to show his phone to a police officer if he doesn't have a warrant?

Jonathan Segal’s The North Parker is coming to 30th and Upas, and here’s a rendering out of the San Diego Business Journal (account required) . The project includes 4 retail suites totaling 6000 square feet, 27 2-bedroom rentals, and office space that will house Segal’s architecture firm. The design is reminiscent of Segal’s black building on India Street in Little Italy. Over in Kensington, demolition work has begun on the gas station at Marlborough and Adams where Kensington Terrace was planned until the market cratered. Looks like the project has undergone a name change to Kensington Commons; about all you’ll find online is this structural info page and a lease listing promising 7 retail units totaling 10,000 square feet. As a Kensington resident who’s watched Normal Heights blow up the past few years I’m looking forward to some more dining options around the corner. On a related note, we made a return visit to Polite Provisions and it has to rank up there with Blind Lady Ale House as The Best Thing to Ever Happen on Adams (At Least Since We’ve Lived Here). There’s nothing nearby that rivals the unique interior they’ve put together, from the beautiful marble bar, to the detailed standing light fixtures, to the large vertically-folding windows. And you’re not going to find a better selection of amazing cocktails in the neighborhood either; new rum-based offering “Beach House” was another dangerously tasty offering. Having just watched Flight I’m concerned PP is going to turn me into Denzel Washington’s character. Elsewhere: El Take it Easy has been reincarnated as Hubcap; while it’s already open, the official Grand Opening is Thursday May 9th. Grass-fed burger and a pint of Saint Archer all month for $15… Eater says BBQ 81 is coming to the former original Pomegranate spot on El Cajon Boulevard… And more restaurants have been named for the Police Headquarters project downtown: Seasons 52 and Jimmy V’s. Another chapter was added to the epic Plaza de Panama saga last week with Mayor Filner’s new proposal to close Cabrillo Bridge on weekends and restrict weekday traffic to the southwest corner of the plaza. The plan, detailed here, would free up the majority of the plaza as a gathering place for pedestrians, complete with landscaping, movable chairs/tables, and access to the fountain there. The bridge closure is set for late next month; handicapped spaces will move to the Alcazar Garden lot and valet parking will retreat to the “secret” lot behind Casa de Balboa. Rather than rehash the details of a plan already discussed elsewhere, it’s worth noting the improbability of this scenario. Who would have thought that Irwin Jacobs’ plan for Plaza de Panama, which involved substantial sums of donated money, concrete, and chutzpah, would be rejected? Certainly not the city council that voted for it; the city attorney and council president that sought to re-write the city charter to nullify the plan’s loss in court; the Republican mayoral candidate funded by Democrat Jacobs after Democratic mayoral candidate Filner opposed it; the wealthy newspaper owner who repeatedly editorialized for it; the former mayor who helped hatch it; nor the park institutions who put their own financial interests over the citizens of San Diego who partly maintain the park with their tax dollars. With the Jacobs plan finally out of the way, Mayor Filner stepped in with a modified version of the Stepner-Blackson plan and 1989 Master Plan, one that emphasizes flexibility and testing. It’s an amazing contrast to the my-way-or-the-highway approach from Jacobs, who seemed oblivious to the damage his auto-focused plan inflicted on the park. Reaction to the mayor’s plan by the Balboa Park Committee and the audience in attendance last week was largely positive. One notable exception was committee member Michael Hager, head of the Natural History Museum and author of a particularly misleading Voice of San Diego op-ed supporting the Jacobs plan, which included this gem: Yet this exciting opportunity has been marred by the opposition of a small group of people who would derail any public improvement that doesn’t meet its narrow definition of purity.. In response, Mayor Filner suggested marketing the museums to pedestrians and cyclists in addition to drivers. Here’s one marketing idea: museum discounts for anyone who rides the park tram (new trams ordered for the Jacobs plan arrived this week). That could bring in visitors who weren’t otherwise aware of the variety of institutions in the park. Another complaint cites increased traffic and parking in Bankers Hill on weekends due to the bridge closure. As others have said, both Golden Gate and Central Park close on the weekends, so why should San Diego be any different? Do the rights of Bankers Hill residents to find easy street parking outweigh those of all the visitors to the Park? From VOSD: … Bankers Hill is located between the vibrant neighborhoods of downtown and uptown, next to the “nation’s largest urban cultural park”. Why would residents expect street parking to be plentiful? If you want the amenities of a large city, one sacrifice is often cheap parking. There are plenty of quiet suburbs in San Diego featuring vast free on-street parking; perhaps Mr. Hamilton would be happier there. Besides, there are parking options on the west side of the park. Re-stripe the western streets/lots in the park for more parking. Reduce 6th Avenue to one lane in each direction with angled parking. Place signage on the west side of the park with directions to Park Blvd lots and park access. Put QR codes on the signs so folks can import the directions to their smart phone mapping apps. Long-term, build a parking garage at Inspiration Point with tram service. Speaking of costly projects, it wouldn’t hurt to consider alternate sources of funding for the mayor’s plan. Remember, Todd Gloria rejected Filner’s prior request for funds to study this plan, and on this and other issues he’s favored his own political advancement via campaign contributions over his constituents. So, how about a fundraiser to do the landscaping right in the plaza (and across from the Museum of Man while we’re at it)? Sell engraved bricks/pavers in the plaza, or start a civic crowdfunding project. As someone who pouted over the city’s approval of the Jacobs plan for months I understand how emotions can run high over the city’s crown jewel. Let’s hope the mayor’s plan proceeds successfully while remaining flexible to suggestions and change. - Linkage: Good article! The objections raised to the mayor’s plan can reasonably be addressed with energetic planning, educating the public, signage, redirection and restriping. I remember the wailing and gnashing of teeth when closing of Third Street to automobiles was proposed in Santa Monica. A lot of the same arguments were presented. Today it is hard to find anyone who’d admit they ever opposed the idea. Here someday we’ll probably read one of the nay sayers take credit for the whole concept presented by the mayor! I watched the YouTube video of the Mayor’s presentation. Very exciting. And you are spot on with this observation: .” Doing Pavers with names on from donors–large and small–is a great idea. That may be a later phase. But important to do all we can to make Filner’s promise of removing the Parking in time for this Memorial Day weekend! May 1st, 2013 at 11:04 am Why does the website still promote the Jacobs Plan for Balboa Park?? This publically funded website should be giving updates information on the Filner Plan to remove parking from Plaza de Panama, including new circulation routes, locations for parking, and the hours of closure of Cabrillo Bridge. Write to them via the “contact” link at the Website and tell them to post the updates NOW. same reason Google still lists Jerry as Mayor…. they still cant believe they lost! Could be because mayor Bob is not great at the details of being mayor (yet). 1 million details every day that the strong mayor is in charge of. Being in congress is good for gaining name recognition, but not much of a training ground for being a CEO. He has never had to deal with that level of detail in his career and it is a daunting task for those who are skilled and experienced at it. It is one of the reasons “outsiders” often struggle when brought in to run a large organization. Mayor Bob and his team are still on a steep steep learning curve and it is early in his term. Hope for his sake, and the city’s, he can pick it up soon. 12:49 pm Mr. Younger: The website is not a city-owned site, but private. Owned by the commercial tenants and museums in the Park. Most of them supported the Jacobs Plan, in part so they could have MORE parking, more Valet Parking, and because Jacobs gave thousands in contributions [aka bribes] to foster support. The website carried an ad and link supporting the Jacobs Plan for almost 3 years, at great cost to Jacobs. This had nothing to do with any lack of attention to details by Filner, but by resistance and opposition from commercial tenants and Jacobs money. The tenants wanted to convert the Park to a shopping center. The public felt otherwise. Hi Mark, I see that it’s changed now. Turns out the mayors staff does have some influence with balboapark.org after all. This is the kind of thing that the mayors staff will get better and better at, but it’s not something that they have had to do before. Good intentions just not experienced at what it takes to handle the details. I’m a believer that they will get better, they almost always do. May 2nd, 2013 at 11:45 pm Thanks for all the comments everyone. I’m excited for this project and glad to see it’s now up on the balboapark.org site! If we do actually get Cabrillo Bridge closed on weekends, I’m hoping residents and visitors will both come to see what a great pedestrian extension of the plaza we could have. I especially liked a comment on VOSD:. April’s the month where outdoor events really get going again in San Diego. This past weekend featured Balboa Park Earth Day, Taste of Hillcrest and City Beat’s Festival of Beers in North Park. Next weekend brings Adams Ave Unplugged, Mission Federal’s Art Walk in Little Italy, and the Creek to Bay Cleanup throughout San Diego. It’s like the city waking up from a long, mild, winter hibernation. .. followed up by an extended nap through the pending May gray. Things are pretty lively indoors too, with a bunch of new establishment announcements. San Diego magazine reports Alex Thao (Celadon, Rama, and briefly, Chow) is opening Lucky Liu’s, a “classic Chinese” place just down the street from our miniature Chinatown on 4th downtown. It’ll be open until 3AM and serve Dim Sum on weekends; tentatively opening in July. Dim Sum in downtown San Diego? That’s something different. Eater brings the excellent news that Ballast Point is opening a tasting room and mini-brewery (5-barrel system) in northern Little Italy that will serve as a testing grounds for new recipes. With Bottlecraft just down the street that’s one more reason to hit up this part of NOLI. Speaking of breweries, Modern Times Beer met their Kickstarter goal of $40K to take their operation to another level with a killer tasting room, aged barrels for sour beers, and lab equipment for yeast development. Then they topped it off with a pledge to donate $2K to bikesd.org if they reach their next goal of $52K, which they’re closing in on. I know Jacob from MT is serious about making San Diego an even better place to live for when we choose not to drive, so it’s great to see ideas like this. That reminds me of the Transit San Diego folks, who are also more interested in improving our quality of life instead of our vehicle flow rates. While I was disappointed to see they’re opposed to SANDAG’s plan for long-distance Bus Rapid Transit, I do admire their reasoning – that BRT out to North County only promotes sprawl, and that we should focus on light rail in the city core instead. While I’d love to see North County empty out and downtown/uptown soar with higher densities (not a sentiment shared by everyone), it’s probably not going to happen anytime soon, so why not give these commuters a transit alternative? Regardless of what happens with BRT, back in uptown there’s a sense that things just keep getting better. Successful new businesses are opening left and right, and I’m seeing more cyclists and pedestrians on the roads and sidewalks every weekend. Positive developments like the Hillcrest shuttle and the CicloSDias walk/bike event in August are signs that many uptowners are looking beyond their cars to get them around the vibrant neighborhoods they live in. A few days back I saw this tweet about a proposed public transit-adjacent project in Highland Park, near Pasadena. The project would put 80 units onto existing parking lots next to the Gold Line: The project in question is the Highland Park Transit Village, and while it looks like an abomination of architecture, that’s a separate issue from the main reason for local opposition. Any kind of growth that results in increased density is forbidden; plus, “they’re going to take away our parking”. LA has been making huge advances recently in expanding public transit (see their 30/10 plan that performs 30 years of construction in 10 years, a plan completely contradictory to SANDAG’s vision for our region) and building smart-growth mixed-use residential/commercial projects along these lines. When you think about it, there isn’t much choice for LA – they’ve sprawled themselves into a traffic-choked nightmare, and where is the future growth going to go – the Mojave Desert? The only solution is to increase density wisely throughout the city, along existing and new transit lines. San Diego, sprawled from sea to mountains, from Camp Pendleton to Mexico, isn’t much different at this point. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who are unwilling to increase density in their neighborhoods to accommodate this type of smart growth. They got there first, they enjoy the convenience of their auto-based life with the best amenities of the city, and they’re not going to make it more inconvenient by allowing more people in their neighborhood – especially if it means sacrificing precious parking. But you can’t really say that at a town council meeting, can you? So instead, you begin coming up with absurd statements like the one above. Just to be clear, an “open space” is typically a park, a “green space”, or a natural environment free from development. It’s definitely not an asphalt-covered parking lot where all non-human life has been paved away. So how do you justify calling it an open space? By saying that a mixed use development will replace “open space” (air?) with a physical structure – you know, where people actually might live: @markvalli also posted a NIMBY flyer that decries the loss of parking, addition of traffic (even though it’s located next to a public transit line), and addition of crime. Comments on a Patch.com article say the project will turn into “public housing” eventually (i.e., more crime). I understand that some residents in a near-transit development are going to use autos, maybe even exclusively. But clearly some percentage of their trips will be on public transit, and each one of those is one less car on the road or in a parking lot. Shouldn’t we address the needs of younger and empty-nest folks looking for residences in communities with alternative modes of transport? Highland Park isn’t in San Diego, so why write about it here? Because the open space argument was used by a commenter on this blog a while back regarding a failed mixed-use project (also sporting some awful design) proposed for the Gala market and parking lot in South Park: Residents love the open space of the lot and usefulness of the parking, the convenience, and the grocery store. It’s a gathering place, an open space, a hub. The community will never allow packing in 60 units, up to the curb line. Well, we drove by that “gathering space” last Friday night at 9 PM and the only things gathered in that vast lot were a handful of cars, an attendant waving a wand for $5 parking, and a whole lot of unused, empty asphalt. Far from “hubs”, parking lots are the antithesis to a community’s walkability, and making cities walkable is arguably one of the strongest contributors to making them livable (check out this summary of Jeff Speck’s excellent Walkable City). And what’s wrong with having units up to the curb line? This presents a much more interesting walking landscape than a sea of asphalt and parked cars, for sure. I guess it’s all those balconies and windows ruining the “open space”. Opposition to smart growth is alive and well in San Diego. This Bankers Hill resident opposes removing just one of three north and southbound lanes in his neighborhood (with several north-south alternatives) for a bike lane because of all the traffic that increased density will bring. The resident wants to see no new development, and/or parking minimums increased. Yet increasing parking only promotes the use of more cars, when we should be focused on increasing transit options in the neighborhood – which, to be fair, the resident said is insufficient. The comment was in response to downzoning uptown neighborhoods (which was mostly rejected last week, except for Mission Hills) until we find funds to increase “infrastructure” to support increased density. Infrastructure can mean a lot of things, so I’ll dodge that one before this post goes on forever. If we can’t increase density in Bankers Hill, smack dab between downtown and Hillcrest, where do we put future growth? NIMBYs don’t have an answer for that question, and frankly don’t care. So it’s not going to be easy to move forward with smart growth, but I hope the desire of younger folks to reduce our dependence on autos eventually wins out. Unfortunately, I think we have to give up on ever convincing many older folks who have lived an auto-based lifestyle and can’t comprehend that more people in their community might not always mean more cars. - While we’re on the subject of parking lots, it was funny to see bayfront San Diego make the Streetsblog Parking Madness contest for worst parking lot expanse in a US city’s downtown, because many of the lots cited are currently being removed for the County Admin Waterfront Park or the North Embarcadero makeover. I biked by the former a few weeks back and took this picture of progress on Phase 1, where the 250-space underground parking garage is being built on the south side of the property: Looks like the underground parking on the will only be one floor – due to water table issues? Regardless, it was encouraging to be able to report progress on this one. Gab April 10th, 2013 at 5:07 pm While the Gala foods parking lot isn’t beloved by me, it is getting some use. The fish taco truck is hopping (with seating to boot), there’s a flower stand, and now Captain Kirk’s coffee, which seems to be a semi-permanent structure with seating. There was a cupcake truck parked there for a while. Oh, and a bustling recycling business! It is getting more use than just parking. April 10th, 2013 at 5:13 pm Good to hear that, thanks Gab. It would be neat if the sidewalk-facing part of the lot could be a row of food carts like in Portland (or food trucks), with seating next to/behind it? That would improve the pedestrian experience. April 13th, 2013 at 4:18 pm Excellent post Paul. NIMBY’s will use every scare tactic in the book … traffic, congestion, crime, homeless, parking, etc. Of course, studies prove that the fear mongering has no basis in fact or reality. Thanks for pointing this out. This post is from guest blogger David Lupica, who owns and writes for 365sandiego.com, and the fan page “365 things to do in San Diego” with 42,000 fans. Thanks David! Adams Avenue is the safer, trendier, El Cajon Boulevard. Or maybe El Cajon Boulevard is the maniacal, gonzo, acid-frenzy induced, insane Adams Avenue. Either way, they’re both quite an adventure. Every San Diegan needs to take a few days off per year to stop in and investigate the ins and outs of these “yellow brick roads,” each leading to their own interpretation of “Oz.” Take the red pill. See how far the rabbit hole goes. It’s not a question of which is better or worse, but what mood you’re in, and whether your boss will understand why you missed work on Monday, or why you’re quoting Hemingway in the stairwell on your lunch break. Adams will lead you from University Heights, along the canyon through a million cute little antique shops, into Kensington, and finally Normal Heights. Coffee shops, pubs, book stores adorn the street, and I must say, I ALWAYS have a great time, and meet super laid back, fun, conversational people along this path. If I could put Normal Heights on the beach, I’d build a fortress around it and defend her to the death. But I guess it wouldn’t be Normal Heights. It’s one of those towns you know you could live your whole life in and be totally satisfied, if you were ready to embrace satisfaction. For me personally, I’m only ready to visit for the weekend. Formerly known as the Roots Festival, “Adams Avenue Unplugged” is happening again on Saturday and Sunday, April 27th & 28th, 2013. This event is one of the hugest live music festivals in San Diego, and it’s free to the public. Most of the artists are acoustic based, and the genres range from jazz to bluegrass to blues and everything in between. Here’s a link to the line-up so far: Come see some local live music from over 180 different musicians and enjoy the tasty food from hundreds of local vendors, and meet some really cool people. There’s always a really cool poster for this event too. It’d make a great full body tattoo. Does anybody know the designer? Ok I’ll see you guys there. It’s basically the ENTIRE street so you can’t miss it. Adams Avenue Unplugged Adams Avenue between University Heights and Kensington Heights April 27th and 28th April 2nd, 2013 at 11:04 pm It actually goes through Normal Heights and ends at Kensington. You might actually spend some time there before you write about it. April 3rd, 2013 at 6:04 am Then you should have signed up to write the blog, Cory. But you didn’t….. 365 things to do in San Diego, CA April 3rd, 2013 at 10:05 pm Thanks Jocelyne! I did mix up a couple words, I hope no one’s offended. I’ll see u there! April 7th, 2013 at 9:49 am Cory, you’re welcome to guest-post anytime, as Jocelyne suggested. Having been guilty of it myself, I know that it’s easier to criticize others than it is to write something on your own. April 8th, 2013 at 9:04 am I’ll be there! Switch to our mobile site 3 Responses to north parker Mike Tristani May 4th, 2013 at 12:49 pm It might have been important to note that Pomegranate is still on El Cajon Boulevard. Eater does make that clear but this posting does not. Pomegranate is a great restaurant and I for one am glad that they are there! paul jamason May 4th, 2013 at 10:33 pm Fixed it, thanks Mike. Amy May 13th, 2013 at 12:36 pm Nice info. Thanks

RE: need instructor in Northeast Alabama just bring a check or cash when you come to the field. any club officer will help you. i heard our website has finally been updated and has the list of current officers. check it out. btw, i have constructed a new shop at my house. give me a call when you can come by. i have airplanes all over the place in various stages of completion. Posted on: 5/15/2013 10:55 AM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Beginners" RE: Engine mount you will want to clamp the mount in tight and use a drill press so the new holes will be straight and round. and the edge distance between the new and old holes should be at least twice the diameter of the hole. Posted on: 5/15/2013 9:44 AM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Beginners" RE: Transmitter use I am shocked that no one has recommended the 8 ch Airtronics radio to you. It has all the features you are looking for and its only around 200 bucks. I have 6 models on my RDS8000. Look it up at Hobby People.com. Posted on: 7/21/2012 11:29 AM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Beginners" RE: Disconect allerions on a trainer 40 ? Bad Idea. Posted on: 7/21/2012 11:20 AM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Beginners" RE: Non-OS engines I have flown many Magnum engines. And I have yet to have a problem with any of them. Hobby people had a sale on the magnum 91 4 stroke. It was priced so low I bought one without even having a model to put it on. I just know someday I will. The 1 OS motor I owned seemed to never idle correctly. So 3-4 years of flying and I can recommend Magnum with no problem. Posted on: 7/21/2012 11:18 AM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Beginners" RE: Power equivilant between Glow and Electric Our club prez told me a good rule of thumb is 150 watts per pound of plane. I have a Razor 3d and was looking for a less expensive alternate to the Rimfire 55 called out for by Tower. The Razor is 5.5 pds so we figure I need at least 800 to 1000 watts. It was so hard looking at the various online hobby shops and trying to figure compatability that I just went ahead and bought the Rimfire. Posted on: 7/10/2012 6:31 PM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Questions and Answers" RE: Transporting in a pickup I built a rack out of PVC and foam insulation. The wings are on the bottom and the fuselage on top. I carry a 60 size trainer, a 1/7th P-51, and a Tiger 60. I used velcro straps to hold down the fuse's. I sometimes go down the interstate so I do get up to 65 MPH. But usually I travel trough town and never get above 40mph. Either way, I have never had a problem with the velcrow. The rack is held down in my Silverado by bungees and it takes up most of the bed. Posted on: 6/26/2012 5:36 PM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Questions and Answers" RE: Tiger 60 Build Thread My Tiger is my main plane. I have 4 others but I am the best at flying the Tiger. Posted on: 6/26/2012 5:26 PM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Kit Building" RE: Monokote....Never Again [quote]ORIGINAL: ratshooter You know Mike all I did was post what I did to get a better covering job and you seemed to be offended by my extra effort to get a good covering job. If you don't like monokote then don't use it. I admit after a 10 year period away from the hobby I hadn't noticed it's not called "Super Monokote" anymore. This is the third plane I have built in the year and a half since I have been back. The first plane did have a small wrinkle problem. I figured it was my fault for being in a hurry to get a flying plane. The second plane turned out much better because I spent a little more time making sure it was dust free. On the third and last plane I made a real effort to make sure I had a clean, smooth airframe to cover. Plus I made sure that I wasn't relying on the shrinkage to correct for my not getting it semi tight to start with. Sorry if spending a little time to make sure you are covering a clean piece of wood is offensive to you. But that is what I will do in the future. I came here to post something positive for the OP in the hopes that he might read what I wrote and see if maybe part of his problem with MK might be his own doing. That was all. I think you may be on to something. I believe it is possible that I did not clean the area of dust well enough. That makes sense to me based on what I remember about the day I covered the Stinger. I think I will try a test piece sanded smooth and then cleaned off with compressed air instead of just a dust cloth. Thanks for the positive response and idea. Posted on: 4/19/2012 6:19 AM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Kit Building" RE: Monokote....Never Again [quote]ORIGINAL: Top_Gunn [quote]I don't doubt some rolls can be defective as any product can be. However I do think technique is the difference between excellent results and failure. [/quote] If you believe this then you have to believe that a lot of people once knew how to use Monokote and then forgot, and others remember on some planes but forget on others. I'm not a Monokote basher: I like it and use it sometimes. But there are real problems with many of their rolls. The complaints are real and legitimate, not whining from people who don't know what they are doing. I agree that the problem is quality control, but it's not just "as any product can be." For years, getting a bad roll of Monokote was rare, just as getting a bad roll of other films is rare today. Now, a lot of people are having problems. We ought to be able to discuss this without saying that people whose experiences don't match ours are incompetent. The fact that some people haven't had problems doesn't mean that the people who do are fools. [/quote] I couldnt agree more. Very well said. Posted on: 4/18/2012 1:00 PM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Kit Building" RE: Monokote....Never Again I cant remember the last time I saw so many sensitive people. I was under the assumption ( and yes I know what that means) that this was a forum for discussing our experianc, both good and bad, in differant areas of this hobby. The title to the thread seems to be pretty obvious about the content. So if you personally have read all you want to have read on the subject feel free to bypass the thread. Yes. I have read many comments about Monokote over the last few years. But I havent used it in many years myself and since it was the only brand available at my LHS I thought I would see for myself how it works. But I guess I was just being lazy when I used it or I would have been able to make it shrink more. I marvel at the skill of some builders and their ability to use a product I cannot. But the next time I think I have something to say I am not going to see if someonce had already said it before. Once again I am going to assume something. I assume that everyone who is visiting this site has not read everything that has ever been posted. In my mind if you have read something here so many times it irritrates you to see it again than mabe you spend far to much time on the internet. So once again, if the thread title is something you are not interested in, just dont read it. Posted on: 4/18/2012 12:56 PM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Kit Building" RE: Building Is Great !!!! I have a 98in wingspan Giles 202 that I have built the fuse and tail feathers on. It is going to have an 80cc gas engine so it is by far the most expensive kit I will have built. A model that size requires expensive radio gear as well. That being said, I just finshed a lanier Stinger 60. And by just finished I mean that I declared it airworthy just 2 days ago. The magnum 61 has had 2 tanks run throught it so I have not yet maidened the Stinger. Hopefully this Sunday the weather will cooperate. On the same evening that I essentially finished the Stinger I cleaned up my shop and then pulled down the Chaos 60 from the shelf and started on it. Got the plans taped to the wall, and built the vert and horz stab. I also have another kit in the box in line for when the Chaos will be finished. I have it bad. I am semi retired and only work at my wifes store about 2-3 days a week.. So I have plenty of time. And I spend a great deal of that time in my shop. So many of my club buddies can build but due to the constraints of daily life just dont have the time and as such there are alot of ARFS at our field. They all like to see what I will show up with next. Watching your new bird fly straight and level is a good feeling. I must agree that building your own adds a whole new dimension to the hobby and I think all fliers should try to build a kit at least once. I also agree that smaller is not easier. There are alot of kits out there designed for the new builder. I would also suggest the Balsa USA trainer. Check out their website. They have more than just bipes. And the Giles 202 will probably be finished later this year. Have a kit you wannae sell? PM me and lets talk!!! Posted on: 4/18/2012 12:11 PM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Kit Building" Monokote....Never Again I used the Top Flight Monokote yesterday for the first time in many years. I have been either fiberglassing or using Ultracoat. I do not usually brand bash because I believe that a product might just be fine for someone other than me. So to each his own. But the Monokote I used (new from the hobby shop) was horrible. It had no stretch to it at all. And it just doesnt shrink anywhere near as much as Ultracoat will. I used it to cover the fuse and tail feathers on a Stinger 60. I just cannot believe how many wrinkles there are. It looks like a total beginner job. I am no expert at covering but jeez. I havent been this bad in a long time. Posted on: 4/12/2012 7:43 PM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Kit Building" RE: TIGER 60 Build / Start date 12-05-09 That is a beautiful covering job. What material did you use? I just used monokote for the first time in many years on a Stinger 60 yesterday. It is the last time I will ever use monokote. Posted on: 4/12/2012 7:38 PM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Kit Building" RE: Top Flite P-51 wing fillet help I built the same model and experianced the same degree of "what now". I cut several pieces of triangle stock and glued them to the fuse and plywood piece. Smaller pieces at the more rounded area up front. I filled in the gaps with balsa filler mixed with micro ballons. I was very happy with the results. Posted on: 3/15/2012 10:36 AM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Kit Building" ZDZ 80 B2 I bought an old ZDZ 80 B2 at Perry this year. It came from an estate sale and the guys couldnt tell me anything about the motor. It has a 24X10 Stinger prop and turning it over by hand it seems to have solid compression. The muffler needs replacing. I just tried for the last 30 minutes to upload some pics of the carb, but no joy there. It is a Walbro. My club prez is a very experianced gasser, but he has no ZDZ experiance. I on the other hand have zero experiance with all gassers and this will be my first. This thing will be going on a 98 in wingspan Lanier Giles 202. I have read alot and I believe that this motor is plenty of power for my needs. Any info you guys could give us about this motor would be appreciated. It came with no manuals. I have a test stand and I am hoping to try ti fire it up in the next 2 -3 weeks. Posted on: 3/15/2012 10:26 AM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Gas Engines" Lanier Stinger 60 - 90 I bought a partially assembleb Lanier Stinger at a swap meet. The fuse and tail feathers are all assmbled and I have almost finished with the foam core wing. I was wondering if anyone out there has the instructions for putting together the plastic parts. The entire top portion from tail to nose is 3 or 4 pieces of plastic. This thing did not come with the instructions and it is not obvious from the plans how to attach the various pieces. It looks like the tail/turtle deck would be glued. Then there is the wing hatch. And forward of that there is the tank cover and then the cowl. The wing hatch has to be removable. But I wonder if the tank cover is also supposed to be removable. Any help would be greatlt appreciated. Posted on: 3/13/2012 8:05:58:57 PM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Kit Building" RE: Countdown to Perry! I made it to Perry!!! My first year ever. A couple of my club members got there a couple of hours before me and so I was walking around for a bit before we met up. I was blown away by how many sellers there were. And then I found out I was only in the first building! 3 large buildings of everything rc was so cool. I managed to only spend 600 bucks. But I actually got everything on my wish list. Including an 80 cc gasser. It is used and came from an estate sale so I do not know how well it works. But hey, it was only 250 bucks. I also got a float plane that is 180 at Tower and I paid 100 NIB. And another foamie BD5 for 30 bucks. AND an RDS 8000 for only 30 bucks. I feel like I made out very well. Next year I am going with at least 1000 to 1500. Posted on: 3/7/2012 6:24 AM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Events, Shows and Fun Fly's - Airplanes" RE: TIGER 60 Build / Start date 12-05-09 I just signed on tonight for the first time in months. I had another knee replaced. All is well now. I have been on a spending spree. I have 4 kits to build. And 3 foamie ARFs that I have not yet flown. Just waiting on the good weather now. Posted on: 3/6/2012 7:37 PM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Kit Building" No Representation I went to the Perry Ga swap meet last weekend. It was my first time there. I was blown away at how many people were there and the vast array of RC product from both individuals and hobby stores. What I was very disappointed in was the total lack of Airtronics radio products there. Futaba amd others were everywhere. I am the only guy in my club who flies with Airtronics. It was pretty much impossible to get any of the guys to even consider Airtronics. There was 1 RDS8000 there and I bought it for a buddy box for my own RDS 8000. I paid 30 bucks. The guy who sold it to me had bought the 10 channel radio and didnt need the 8 ch any more. Good for me. I have heard that Airtronics is much bigger on the west coast. I just wish they were represented better out here. Posted on: 3/6/2012 7:33 PM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Airtronics Support Forum" RE: Retracts Dont forget the boat price. Posted on: 11/1/2011 9:22 AM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Questions and Answers" RE: Midwest Giles-202 I have been building a Lanier Giles 202 for a few months now. Very start and stop. Mine has a 92in wingspan. And I am considering a DLE111 for power. When I get back into the shop I will take some pics and post them just for fun. Posted on: 10/29/2011 11:42 AM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Kit Building" RE: Surface prep Is it the 1/4 or 1/7th scale TF? I painted my 1/7th and it came in at 10.5 lbs. I have a 1.20 4s on it and it has plenty of power. It is too hard to match film coating with paint so I painted the entire model. Posted on: 10/27/2011 6:38 AM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Kit Building" RE: 60 or 90 stinger Balsa USA Posted on: 10/8/2011 8:47 AM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Crash & Rebuild" RE: Former strength ! I concure. 1 hard landing later and the tail snaps off. Or worse yet, an in flight structural failure. Loose the entire model. Repair it to spec's Posted on: 10/8/2011 8:45 AM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Crash & Rebuild" RE: simulators? I think the 5 ch Airtronics is about 50 bucks cheaper than the 6. It will probably be a loooong time before you need that extra channel. I am talking years. Posted on: 10/8/2011 8:08 AM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Beginners" RE: I guess I'm getting better Here is my problem. I have just in the last week got my confidence back. I have not had alot of oprtunity to actually fly this season for various reasons. Mostly wind. But now that I have no issues taking off, flying with loops rolls and even snap rolls, and landing, the season will be over soon. Here in North Alabama you just never know what winter will be like. The last 2 have been abnormally cold. So if it is 3 months or so between flights I lose my confidence all over again. And it doesnt help to hear guys at the club talking about knees shaking. You know, the real experts. Posted on: 10/8/2011 8:03 AM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Beginners" RE: magnum 46 vs. OS 46 I had an OS 65LA and was not impressed. It was very hard to start. I ran it for 2 years and I could never get it right. I have since flown 4 magnums and they all start very easy and run and run and run. I do give everything I run a very good breakin on the bench before flight. Maybe thats the secret. Posted on: 10/8/2011 7:31 AM by Author "stevenmax50" in the forum "Beginners"

Why do we do this thing called the writer’s life? • Why do we walk around asking “What if? What if? What if?” • Why do we listen to the voices in our head instead of medicating them into oblivion and getting a decent night’s sleep? • Why do we participate in an annual event dubbed NaNoWriMo and fingersprint to produce 60k words during the month of November? • Why do we spend hundreds – no, thousands of dollars attending conferences where we sweat through our super-strength deodorant during fifteen minute appointments with editors and agents? • Why do we check our inboxes dozens of times a day just to see if “the” agent or “the” editor has responded to our proposal? (Please say yes! Please say yes!) I know the answer: It’s because (say it with me now) we want to be successful. But then … we achieve success. Oh, happy day! And thus commences a whole new round of whys. • Why do we blog and speak at writers groups and pursue the next contract … and the next? • Why do we invest hundreds – no, thousands of dollars updating our websites and printing bookmarks and redoing our professional photos? • Why do we tackle the social media beast – twittering and commenting and posting – when none of the words produced matter in the word count tally of our work-in-progress (WIP)? • Why do we gauge our achievements by someone else’s? (The writer’s version of “The grass is always greener” syndrome.) I know the answer to these questions too: It’s because (say it with me) we want to be successful. Funny, isn’t it? Different questions but the same answers. Here’s what I would like to suggest today: We’re answering the question wrong. With the debut of my inspirational contemporary romance, Wish You Were Here, I could pick up the (imaginary) stamp of success and hit myself in the forehead with it. But here’s the truth: Before the ink dried, something will happen to make me feel unsuccessful. Less than. Maybe someone doesn’t like my book. (It happens.) Or maybe someone likes my writing friends’ books better. (It happens.) Or maybe I walk into the local Barnes and Nobles and my book isn’t there. (So far, that hasn’t happened.) As I wrestled with the whole idea of success, I realized this writing journey isn’t about me achieving certain things. Yes, I would like it to be about that – earning out my advances, receiving awards, being noticed. Hey, I’m just being honest here. Honesty isn’t always pretty. But God isn’t in the “It’s all about you, Beth” business. Or the “It’s all about you, __________” business. (Insert your name in the blank.) God uses all of my experiences to conform me to his image so that I can, in turn, show the world what he is like. The world’s definition of success is all about demanding “Hey! Notice me!” God’s definition of success is all about embracing the scriptural command to become “less than” ( Matthew 20:26) as he provides opportunities to say, “Let me introduce you to an amazing God who has changed me in a miraculous way.” Because I am a writer, God works through my life as I walk the writing road. In his economy – Kingdom living – it’s not about my sales stats or how many stars I’ve accumulated on Amazon. Nope. It’s about how God uses all of this to scrape off my rough edges – the doubts, the jealousy – so that I look less like me and more like him. And it’s about bringing people one step closer to Jesus. I can do that through the stories I write, yes. And I can do that through my words and my actions, day in and day out, as I live the life of an author. inspirational contemporary romance novel, Wish You Were Here, debuted May 2012 (Howard Books.) Her second novel, Catch a Falling Star, releases May 2013. Beth is an established magazine writer and former editor of Connections, the leadership magazine for MOPS International. Visit with Beth at her website bethvogt.com. Today Beth is giving away a copy of Wish You Were Here to one commenter. Winner announced in the Weekend Edition! 107 comments: Wonderful perspective, Beth. Thank you so much. Good morning, my beautiful friend!!! You are so right, but that's not surprising. And if you [yes you, the other youse not Beth] haven't read her book yet, you need to. Like now. Because it has llamas. What more do you need? ;) Welcome to SEEKERVILLE, BETH!!! A fellow Coloradoan! You post is so right on the mark. Llamas?? Really? AUDRA! SHE HAS LLAMAS!!! Hello, KC, Carol (aka Beautiful!), and Tina: Thanks for the welcome to Seekerville! And, yes, there are llamas in Wish You Were Here -- 3 of 'em to be exact. And there's a story to why there are llamas ... Tina, my deadline for book 2 is past. It is time we meet face to face! :O) Yeah, but my deadline isn't past lol. Oh, I love this! So, so true. When I told a friend that I signed a contract with Love Inspired, she said, ' Don't worry, I still respect you even though you wrote a romance.' Oh, I didn't know I should have been woried I was losing respect. Didn't get that memo. *sigh* It IS all about God and His wll for our writing life. Thanks for the support and reminder of what success really is. I'm laughing out loud because Grandma Eichas (a sage, sweet old German woman who loved me to pieces) always said, "Never say never. Inevitably, it will come to pass." I think God takes our "nevers' like I take a Tina Radcliffe dare... PLEASE NOTE: TINA DOES NOT TAKE MY DARES. NO. SHE CALMLY MOVES ON AND IGNORES ME. This is probably why I got into more trouble in school. Sigh... Beth, I love this! It's all so true. This is such a capricious business that we need to be prepared for anything and (literally) expect nothing. And I'm not a pessimist, but we have to Serenity Prayer ourselves through a writing career because we only control so much. The rest, well??? We leave in the hands of professionals and God. Oh, that God! Hey, muffins this morning. Blueberry streusal (and NOT the ones I ruined a few weeks ago in Yankee Belle and Facebook. Sheesh...) and chocolate chip. Coffee's here, I brought the Keurig along and a host of flavors. Creamers to your left and Oh, look!!! Lacey sent along lemon cookies for us! We love Lacey around our house! Ooohhhh! Beth, this was excellent! I loved this line: It’s about how God uses all of this to scrape off my rough edges – the doubts, the jealousy – so that I look less like me and more like him. Sooooo true! You are one smart gal, you know? Good morning! I love this post. God used it to speak to my heart. I am going to take today and see if I can't do things differently to present God and not myself. I had been praying about a way to handle some things at work, and here is the answer. Thank you so much for your insight! Makes one wary of using the word NEVER, doesn't it? A lovely reminder that I need to consider not just in writing but in all I do. Thank you Beth. Hi Beth, Wonderful post! It reminds me of one of my favorite daily prayers. "Grant me the grace to live my life in such a way that others may recognize Jesus in me." How about "why do we continue when our families wonder why we feel compelled to hunch our bodies over a computer and let our eyes grow big as we grind our fingers into typeworn keys?" Just asking :-) Beth, sending military wife hugs to you and a "thanks for your service" shout out to your hubby! Loved your post. All so true. If I wrote for my glory I would have given up long ago. :) Luckily God knew that so he opened the door to inspirational fiction and invited me to work with Him and for Him. Very cool how God operates when we let Him be in control. :) How fun to read about the "nevers" in your life. God does have a sense of humor. I think He laughs at me most of the time, saying, "Deb, lighten up. I've got your back." Mary C...lovely prayer. Thanks for sharing. Walt, you have a dream. Dreams feed the soul and give meaning to life. Keep writing! You're so close. Beth, I loved this posting...Looking forward to reading your novel. karenk kmkuka at yahoo dot com Welcome to Seekerville, Beth. Thanks for the inspiring post!! You nailed the journey we're on and the pitfalls along the way that can make us stumble. The downs of this business, probably more than the ups, polish us to shine for Him. Janet It's time for the questions we ask all our new guests to Seekerville! A peek inside YOUR life. Beth, tell us about a day in your writing life. How DID you make that first sale? What was your road to publication? Finally, what's next? I enjoyed your post. Great way to start the day with the right prospective. It's all for Him. Llamas? I love llamas! And alpacas, but that's a whole 'nother story, LOL! Welcome to Seekerville, Beth! A fellow Coloradoan? I love it. There can never be too many of us : ) I love your words of encouragement, too. Isn't it just too depressing when we focus on ourselves and realize how far short we fall of perfection? Glad God is always there to smack us upside of the head when we begin to wallow. Trust me, I've got the bruises to show for it : ) Congrats on your debut! Enjoy the rush!! Oh, BETH HONEY, PREACH IT!!!! I've been singing this song for four years now and I STILL can't carry a tune. :( Beautifully and honestly spoken, my friend. Now I suggest each one of us do what I'm gonna do -- print this baby off and hang it up, because darlin', I ain't NEVER butted heads with anything harder in my personal walk with Christ. Downright difficult to do, at least on a constant basis, but with Him?? Totally and completely possible and doable ... uh, and forgivable when we don't. Thank you for this important reminder -- SO needed, and on a repeat basis!! Hugs, Julie Beth,my friend, I love this post and your honest words. :) How did you know I needed these today? I almost read them late last night, but decided to go to bed. I woke up thinking in directions my mind ought not to go. These words especially resonated with me: "God uses all of my experiences to conform me to his image so that I can, in turn, show the world what he is like." It goes along with my life verse. Thanks for your encouragements. :) And yes, I agree with Carol. You've got to pick up Beth's book--the llamas, characters, story are wonderful! So simply and beautifully said. Thank you. Can't wait to read your book. Good morning Beth and Seekerville folks, I love your post of "What if's" I think authors have to write and let out what God has given them to say. As a Reader of your books-I have been given so much by the authors, a magical world absent from my humdrum life,characters that come to life and befriend me for awhile as I read their stories. I used to think authors were so different from the average person until I have had interaction with them on the internet and see them as just like regular folks with dreams-families-bills to pay-walking through this life just like me-Thank God they are just more talanted then I. sorry getting off my soapbox now-Have a great day all.... Paula O(kyflo130@yahoo.com) Yes, less about me and more about Him. This is good advice for everything in our lives. Beth, can't wait to hear how you DO it all, and do it so beautifully! You sound like one extremely busy lady. I guess never-never land isn't all it's cracked up to be, huh? PLEASE NOTE: TINA DOES NOT TAKE MY DARES. NO. SHE CALMLY MOVES ON AND IGNORES ME." This bears repeating. What an encouraging and exhorting post to read before heading to work this morning. No matter what we do in life, we need to remember it's not about us but about Him. How easy it is to forget that in the busy cares of life. Llamas + Carol singing the book's praises = Must put this on the to-get list. (My amazon cart is getting full. :-) Good morning, everyone! My Wii awaits, but I had to stop by here first and visit with y'all. Such a friendly bunch of folks. Tina: Let me know when your deadline is past. Virginia: Oh. My. Word. Someone respects you even though your write romance? That gets filed under the "The Things People Say!" file. I wrote an article for a Christian newspaper & a friend said "Oh, we line our birdcage with that paper." Ouch. Ruth: Thank you for the encouraging words & all the virtual goodies! Sherrinda: I hang around smart people. That helps a lot. Sally: May things go better for you at work today. Debra: "Never" is now one of my favorite words. ;) Mary: I am printing your prayer out right now. Walt: Adding your "Why" to the list. Debby: Thank you for the hugs. I am a hugger! Karen, Thank you for joining the conversation! Janet: I'm learning lots about walking out the journey along the writing road. Some days I do it better than others. Audra: I've got to find out about your thing with llamas. Let's just say with WYWH, it was either llamas ... or aliens. Julie: God's forgivenss and his lavish grace: that's what I hold onto! Jeanne: Love you friend!Can't wait to see you SOON! Loved your post, Beth! This line really resonated with me: "God’s definition of success is all about embracing the scriptural command to become “less than” ( Matthew 20:26) as he provides opportunities to say, “Let me introduce you to an amazing God who has changed me in a miraculous way.” That's what happens all through the gospels - we meet people like John the Baptist, Peter, the Centurion, the Samaritan woman at the well...and what do they do? They point to Jesus. Every single one of those people makes us see what Jesus has done in their lives. What a great goal for a story teller. I've also learned never to say never. I once said I'd never want to live in Kansas City (while driving through and seeing the endless suburbs). Six months later we moved. Guess where? Don't ever say God doesn't have a sense of humor. I'm putting your book in my Amazon cart... Beth, thank you for sharing your perspective. How many times do we forget that it's not about us, it's ALL about HIM. i love your books, and find things that i can use in my own attitude. Keep on keeping on for Him. And isn't the cover of Beth's debut, gorgeous??? Did you get alot of input on that cover?? Welcome to Seekerville Beth and thanks for the reminder of why we write. smile My mantra for years has been "Thy will not mine" But you would think it would stick by now. LOL Walt hang in there, as Debby said, "You are so close." Thanks again Beth, have fun today. Tina, you are right. That does bear reapeating. LOL POL: Yep, authors=regular people with both dreams & bills bills to pay. Pam: I am thankful God shoved me out of Never-Never Land and into his perfect will for me -- even if I went kicking and screaming at times! Jamie: Thank you for the welcome! Clari: sounds like you love Carol as much as I do! Jan: Ah, you've learned the "Never Say Never" lesson too! Marianne: Thank you for the encouragement today! NOW ONTO TINA's QUESTIONS: A day in my writing life: I'd love to say it's smooth sailing, but it's more about juggling the interruptions and keeping my focus on the deadlines. Book #2 (Catch a Falling Star) is now with my editor, so I'm waiting for feedback and the next round of rewrites. (There are always rewrites.) CAFS is a stand-alone, not a sequel to WYWH, but it's set in CO too. I'm a wife and a mom, so I'm constantly balancing both ends of the seesaw: real life vs. writing life. And, yes, my house is not the cleanest on the block. I detoured to writing fiction thanks to a season of burnout. I said I would never, ever, ever write again (I was that exhausted) and God used the burnout to redirect me to the "Dark Side" of the writing road, i.e. writing novels. Hi Beth, First congratulations on your debut! I've heard nothing but glowing comments about it and so am thrilled to be in the drawing for a chance to win your book! Second, your words are SO timely. I've been wallowing in a big ball of confusion, doubt, "my writing's never going to be good enough", "where do I go from here" pit these last few days. Stewing in frustration and getting nothing done. Your words have given me a fresh perspective - I need to let go and let God. It will work out as intended. Thanks, Beth! And we'd love to hear about your road to publication. Gives us hope! Cheers, Sue sbmason at sympatico dot ca Great post Beth, and reminder too. Thank you. Blessings, Jodie Wolfe Oh, my beautiful friend - promise me we'll spend at least a tiny bit more time together than we did last year at conference ;). One quick hug, while passing cookies off, just won't cut it this time :D. 640 words on that /gasp/ historical Mellie's makin' me write - while sitting at the doc's office. Time to get some more words in :). Cannot wait for the next book, Beth dear, am not pleased it'll be so long :D. Great post, Beth! THE DARK SIDE??? What were you doing before this detour? (THE DARK SIDE?) And boy does this BEG for questions. As a NF writer how did you transition to Fiction? Where did you start? What resources did you rely on? Do you have a critique group? Before fiction I was a nonfiction writer and editor (GASP!) who tossed the "never" word around all the time about fiction. Hearing voices? Take meds, please! I edited Connections, the leadership magazine for MOPS International, among other things. When I first wrote fiction it was just for fun -- I only told one friend. Then I was invited to join a critique group by Donita K. Paul. What a blessing. After meeting Susan May Warren, I attended all of her My Book Therapy retreats -- and shredded my manuscript. ;o) WYWH was a 3-year process. I love the My Book Therapy writing community and I plot all my books using The Book Buddy -- and then I write a fast draft, kind of my own personal NaNoWriMo. I' blessed to also have Rachel Hauck as a mentor too. She and Susie challenge me to up my game with every book. Pardon my typo in my last post. "I'm" not "I'." The editor in me is cringing. Ya'll are such a friendly bunch! Sandra: I like your mantra. Susan: I pray God blesses the works of your hands. (Psalm 90:17) Jodie: Hope you were encouraged. Carol: You better believe there will be more than just a quick hand off of cookies this year at ACFW! Waving to Paula, my fellow MBT Ponderer! It appears I have been remiss. The coffee pot is empty. Apologies all around. It is now plugged in and brewing (Rocky Mountain Blend) and we have a fresh plate of sliced peaches from Grand Junction. With pound cake. I am officially re-filling the pot... and I've brought sweet tea for the lot o' youse! I'm seeing in these comments that we're a community of real folks here. And by real I mean that we do whatever Tina says.... Or cringe, trying. Having said THAT.... ;) Let me just add that Virginia Carmichael, my new LI buddy, stupid folk abound in this world. Part of the free will loophole I guess, because I gotta tell you... I AM LOVIN' ME SOME LOVE INSPIRED BOOKS, LOL! And when that signing check comes... And those royalty checks.... And you can pay for that new floor.... It feels real good. But even more, I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE that I can envision folks reading a Ruthy-book for $5. $5. How wonderful is that when so many books are priced out of current middle-class budgets and then go on sale for $3.99 at your local bookstore.... Tables and tables full of them at my last book signing. The $14.99 and $16.99 was X'd off and $3.99 written over it. Looks are deceiving and part of our job as businesswomen is to see beyond the hype and realize our worth. So you just keep on writin' them thar romances, sweetness! And tens of thousands of folks'll be readin' 'em. Guaranteed! Deb, I love your replies to all... You've the heart of a warrior and the smile of a gentle queen. Walt, she's right. We dream, we hope, but mostly we work. And we keep on, keepin' on. Hang in there.... Moncado, I love llamas. And alpacas, too. I keep suggesting to Dave we put a couple of alpacas or sheep in the side yard, a wetlands area. Trust me, they can only improve the bog-like essence. And they won't bother my Peepers and Frogs!!! My plan is to suggest gently and then tell him how much it's going to cost for me to rent him a bush hog to whack the growth out of there... I may make the brush hog sound a little more expensive than the fencing for the alpacas. Possibly. Because I'm creative that way. I will keep you posted! Beth, nice job using wildlife in your book. Wildlife that spits. Great minds think alike! Radcliffe, I'm pretty sure that you don't take my dares because you're a chicken. Don't quote me on that. "bawk...bawk....de bawk!!!"! Beth, LOL!!! Novels equates Dark Side... Oh, that God. And here you are. Bless you! Good morning, Thank You Beth for this post, I have a couple extra days off work and needed some encouragement (some courage) to get on with my writing stuff. Seekervillians, you have said before that you pray for all of us. I am having some trouble getting my blog heading in the direction it is supposed to go. Could you please pray about that for me? You don't have to dwell on it, just a quick word or two to get me going. Thank you, all of you. OK, y'all: Here is how you get someone to take dare: You say, "I double-dog-dare you." There. Done. How can a person not take that dare? (Are you reading this, Tina?) Now, to the llamas: Whenever I hit an "I don't know what to write next" moment, my husband Rob would always say, "Is this when the aliens show up?" My reply: "I don't write aliens." (GASP! Wait ... I never said "never.") Anyway ... one day we were driving through Estes Park doing research for WYWH and spotted llamas and he said,"How about llamas?" And I said,"Llamas sound like fun." So, llamas it was. And thank you for sweet tea and sliced peaches. Just perfect! Mary: My blog story, to encourage you: My first blog was a bust. I loved the idea, but it just never took off. So I stopped it. And then I waited. And prayed. And waited. I knew I "should" write a blog, but that wasn't reason enough to start another one. Then, during a bout of insomnia, I had an idea: I love quotes. People always commented on my FB page when I posted quotes. So, why not marry those two ideas? My blog is now "In Others' Words." I highlight a quote and share a thought about it and then ask a question to start the conversation. I keep the post short because there are so many blogs out there. My agent loved the idea -- and said I should have insomnia more often. Um, no thanks. :O) Praying for you -- to discover your blog niche, not to have insomnia. Here's a theory of mine that works it's way into my books sometimes. God's priority is our souls. I don't think God looks down on a decent Christian going through something hard and feels bad for his child if our souls are with him. To God that is triumph. We pray for health and career and money and relationships and we should and God is with us, and helps us and gives us the desires of our hearts...if it helps our souls be right with him. I think once we start thinking of ourselves as this fiery vivid kernal of an eternal soul, and understand that God sees that and all that surrounds it is infinitely less important, it changes the way we live and the way we believe and the way we treat the world. My dad was a strong man of faith and he died a really slow, painful death from cancer. He was 72 and he'd lived a long life, but of course we wanted more. My mom and dad had the most congenial, loving marriage I've ever seen and when he died she was simple, truly broken hearted. It took her four years to say a single word about the future because she wasn't looking forward to a future, other than being in heaven. Eight brothers and sisters, spouses, grand children galore and we were all mourning. I think God sees that and He only knows that a soul that was committed to Him has come home and that is Victory. So this blog, Beth, just rings so true to me. Very encouraging and a great reminder of what is truly of value in this life. Beth, honey, if you get to a spot where you're stuck, please adopt the Mary Connealy Method of Plotting. (everyone say it with me) SHOOT SOMEBODY! (it's true that this works better in westerns, I acknowledge that and yet I urge you to include gunfire when ever the plot sags, it never fails) It can be a metaphorical bullet I suppose but real flying lead is usually best. Virginia, you didnt' tell us the rest of the story, like how your 'friend' looked face down on the sidewalk with your foot on her neck. Mary, I'm 4600 into this thing and no gunshots yet. How many am I behind? :D WALT. most of us keep writing for one very simple reason. We can't stop. If we could, we would. Carol, I'm not saying you're doing it wrong or nuthin' but, if you ever get to a slow spot, definitely keep the Mary Connealy Rule in mind. Mary: Thank you for sharing your story with us today. It touched my heart so tenderly. And, yes, I am now writing the words "SHOOT SOMEBODY" on a piece of paper and posting it near my desk. My poor, poor family is really going to wonder. Except for my son. He's a writer too. I didn't shoot anyone in WYWH. But I did break someone' knee. BWAHAHAHAHAHA And that was based on a true to life incident. Wait! I didn't break the person's knee ... but I was there when it happened. Beth, gasp! What are you doing here??? And lamas, Beth? They spit. And smell. (I lived for 10 years in Bolivia.) But it is indeed unusual! Mary Cline, yes, yes, and yes. If it's one thing these gals have taught me, it's that asking for prayer and praying for our goals and dreams is NOT A BAD THING. I'm such a dork. Hugs to you from upstate and yes, prayers too. I'll MAKE Mary pray. She won't like it, but she'll do it. ;) Sweet tea and llamas. Now this is my kind of drama. Maybe a random shooting or two. Beth, that's a hoot. I can totally see that happening! Ruthy, the thing is... I LIKE romances. So, part of me was sort of offended that romance reading was not repsctable. I mean, we're not talking erotica here. I even love the hints of romance in some of the YA, where you know as the character grows up, there are going to be some SPARKS with a certain character. Call me a romantic. And I love this company Love Inspired, these editors, these sweet people... AND the other authors. So, myself aside, it felt sorta personal. Like someone insulting your beautiful, smarty-pants big sister because she's a girl. Mary Connealy, she's actually a dear friend so... I just put it up next to the tally marks of all the rude stuff that I've said TO HER without realizing it. :D We're a bunch of big mouths. Beth, I love quotes!!! I'll have to check that out. And can you tell us your first sale story? How did you find your editor/publisher? Those covers are GORGEOUS. Congratulations on your debut, Beth! I've heard nothing but good things about your book. It's on my TBR list. Great, great advice, Beth--thanks!!! I experienced both sides of the "success" coin just this week. I needed to look up some info about one of my books on Amazon, only to discover some "low-star" reviews had been added. Well, I followed Tina's advice and decided not to even read them, but just the knowledge that they existed was enough to gnaw at my spirit. Then yesterday I got the sweetest, most positive and complimentary note from the copy editor who's working on my next book to be published. Her words were such an encouragement, a reminder that, yes, I AM a good writer, and my stories do make a difference. And that's what we all really want, isn't it? Not so much success and recognition as the knowledge that God is using our stories to touch people's lives and hearts. Yeah for you for not reading that review. Folks give negative reviews if their order is late. For goodness sakes...like that's the author's fault. But it all messes with your mind. And yeah for the copy editor!!! Nice words are always welcome. Tina Radcliffe Please ignore any and all typos from here on out. I am the world's worst typist. About my cover. That was quite the wild ride. But the art director at Howard Books ultimately went with a live model, and also bought a wedding gown (the gown is almost a secondary character in WYWH) and even a bouquet to match the one in the book. I love my cover. I love the wedding ring dangling off the title. First sale story: Rachelle Gardner, my agent (can you say blessed beyond measure?) sent me a cryptic "Today or tomorrow might be a very good day" email. EEEK! Then, she called me while I was driving through Denver. There were a lot of "Did you say I got a contract?" repeats ... I managed to a) stay on the road and b) not get lost. My husband took me out to dinner that night to celebrate and then we celebrated with the whole family later that week at Rodizio's Brazilian Grill (which also shows up in WYWH! I believe in weaving real life into my novels.) I just love first sale stories. It's such a natural high... But right now I dragged along a plate of cookies, Beth, just for you and our friends because ya' gotta love a woman who puts llamas in a book. These are chocolate chip/peanut butter chip/M&M cookies, and they are to die for. There is no limit on cookies in Seekerville, so make yourselves comfy-cozy! Enjoy! Beth, it is a great cover. And I'm not surprised that you love writing non-fiction and that fiction has now caught you in its grasp. What are your coming projects? Anything you can share? Beth, I love this post. Hope you're saving these for YOUR book on writing. And I found a better super-strength deodorant in England (made in Japan). Ran out and paid extra to order 6 more on Ebay. I'm grinning. Llamas, shootouts, mouthy friends face planted on the floor... You all are a hoot, today! Thanks, Ruthy. I was getting hungry. And those cookies look Mahvelous! PS Congrats on multitudinous blog post response comments! Catch a Falling Star (May 2013) is in the hands of my editor even as I type. (Doesn't that sound ominous?)A contemporary romance, this novel asks the question: What do you do when life doesn’t go according to plan? Do you hold onto to that elusive Plan A? Dust off Plan B? Or do you just settle? Catch a Falling Star reminds readers that romance isn’t just for twenty-somethings and that sometimes letting go of your “wish I may, wish I might” dreams is the only way to embrace everything God has waiting for you. I'm also perking on several other novel ideas ... and many readers have asked for a WYWH sequel. 'God uses all of my experiences to conform me to his image so that I can, in turn, show the world what he is like' FANTABULISTIC POST! A big amen from Canada to you, dear sister in the Lord because I could NOT agree more! Oh my goodness, this just BLESSED me- seriously! These are very precious and wise words Thank you! I am so glad that I - and You- and everyone else - stopped by! Blessings to you Beth,=) Ganise I love your attitude:) enter me! The description of this book sounds really good! Clp1777(at)aol(dot)com Dee: Thanks for the recommendation of that stronger deodorant. We all should stock up before the round of 15 minute appointments at ACFW, eh? (Do we still have plenty of cookies? Has Carol dropped off her gluten-free stash?) As y'all can probably tell, I like to write novels that wrestle with questions ... questions like: Can God redeem our mistakes? We say we believe that, but do we truly believe that in our own lives? That was the hidden question behind the kiss-gone-wrong in WYWH. With each of my stories I like to nail down the Story Question that drives the story from page 1 to "The End." And, yes, each one wrestles with how we think we know what's right ... and what's wrong ... or what's best ...but do we? Have we really listened to God --or have we ignored him or just accepted some preconceived idea of Truth? Hi Beth! Thanks for the perspective on the writing journey. BTW, I heard your radio interview with Ken and Kristen on 100.7 KGBI in Omaha, NE last week and your books sounds great! Kristen's a good friend of mine, so she told me about the interview in adavance so I'd be sure to listen! Ah, Rodizio's !!! Lucky girl and so deserving. Great first sale story and love the bridal gown story too!!!1 Thanks for sharing. Tina Radcliffe Amazon bought Avalon?? Ruthy, point me to the info pretty please? Nancy C Beth - of course, there's GF cookies when you're around my friend!!! I didn't try any last year [was soooooooo over cookies by then ;)] but I may this year so I can compare to my nonGF ones... >> Beth said: I detoured to writing fiction thanks to a season of burnout.<< Wow and double wow! Same experience. I wonder how many others this has happened to. A lovely "re-focus" post, expressed so simply. Thank you. Nancy C Hi again! Is Amazon going to own everything soon? Beth I love the cover of your book! I can't tell if the bride is coming or going. And the blurb doesn't give it away either. I will have to read your book! It's on my list. Maybe the top of my list. Stephanie, glad you got to hear my radio interview. I only "heard" it when we taped it. :O) And Carol, thanks for the GF cookies. Anybody else GF? Here's the link for the Amazon purchase of Avalon Books... I'm hot-wiring the link as we speak...(Ruthy climbs under driver's seat, pulls off wire casings with her teeth, reaches up, inside the console, grasps the ignition wire and: Amazon Sale Info Here Shazaam! Ruthy hot-links the Amazon Ammo! Film at eleven! Such multi-talented people here at Seekerville! Shazaam is right! Ruthy, sounds like you've hot-wired for real at least once in your lifetime.... Beth, thanks so much for being here. I don't know what the weather is where you are, but in Highlands Ranch we just ended a tornado warning. Now just rain. I love rain. Thank you Beth! I appreciate your honesty and reminding us all of Who we need to focus on in this writing life. Blessings from Georgia, Patti Jo :) Hi Beth! I found a link to your site through the Armchair BEA blog, and was interested to read about you and your book. I would love to be entered for a chance to win a copy. Thanks! Muzette Loved the interview. Would love to win. G'night all! Being here was the highlight of my day! Thank you for the reminder of what success really is. Sometimes I forget! What a great post - thanks for the reminder that we are to desire and seek God's success for our lives - not man's. all these Colorado peeps are making me homesick. i'm a Denver native transplanted to Virginia Beach... oh, to get back to the mountains, but my husband has gills (avid scuba diver, ret Navy) so returning to a land-locked state doesn't look like a possibility right now. love this post. looking forward to reading the book (so many books, so little time *heavy sigh*) absolutely LUV your 'success' thoughts! how true and how revelatory... ty for sharing Beth! enjoyed meeting you at the debut party online and getting to know you better today! bless you ~ ty also for the giveaway generosity~ would luv to read your writing! I love this. What a great reminder to me today that it's not all about me, even on this, my birthday. :) Thank you for the giveaway, as well! Hi Beth, It is nice to see you here. I usually see you at MBT. A huge Congratulations on your new book! I would be thrilled to win a copy of your book! Please enter me in the draw. Jan really enjoy your books and would love to win this one! HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!!! RACHELLE!!!! Hi, Beth. Thanks for this wonderful and timely reminder. In all the self-promotion and social marketing we as authors are supposed to do, it can be easy to lose sight of the real reason we're in this whole writing 'business'. Congratulations on having your first fiction novel published - it looks intriguing! God bless Sandra Peut Why indeed!! marypres(AT)gmail(DOT)com Wonderful post Beth. I love the cover of your book Wish You Were Here! Would love to win a copy. Thank you for the opportunity. Smiles & Blessings, Cindy W. countrybear52[at]yahoo[dot]com Great post. Absolutely 100% correct! If only we would learn to perform for Heaven, not for man!

You black women just got bamboozeled!The white women are masters of keeping a man.They know how to shut their mouth when in public,help stick by him so he will be able to buy her that house and car.And we black men have great respect to find a white woman to stick with black in this race based world.Tell me black women describe the welfare case worker that told you to kick out the father because he is no good!Yes that's right the white woman.You see a black woman don't want to go with a man that gets his hands dirty for a living even though we make 40 to 100 grand a year with super benefits!White women have respect for a man that does labor work.Without labor work you would not have roads,cars,houses,food,hospitals,etc. etc..Now do you see how people look at as stupid for turning down this great supply of good men!The white women deserve black men because they know how to build a man up!We black men are not no damn movie stars we are just regular people,we don't want to be used for someone to try to live like they are some movie star!That's why black women are single and DESPERATE as hell on a crisses level .Clean up your act you stint wash and doush,learn to cook,keep your mouth shut in public,stop telling everybody all about your damn personal life,stop going out all the time like your a paid caberay singer,Until you learn what to do with a man stop begging for one.You did not even care about the black man until the white women picked us up,you had us to yourself for 400 years through slavery and racism.You talked about us and treated us any ole way because we had no where else to go.Now the black man starting get the reconition he deserves your caught without a man and holding onto a welfare check or working in a high rise overly dressed to hide that ain't got no man.And no the white man ain't gonna pick you up because he done had you for the last 400 years!Sparks fly between us black men and white women but black women white men battery been ran out!!! I do not think white women are master's at keeping men. My mother has kept a man for over 35 years, I have aunts who have managed to keep men, I myself have kept a man for over 9 years. We are all black women. I know countless many white women who are single and divorced. Just because one manages to get married, doesn't mean that they stay married. I am sorry, but I don't think all white women are stepford wives, and I do think it is odd you think women need to stick by their men so they can get a house and car. Black women never had the luxury of sticking by men, and we learned to obtain a car and house on our own, like many white women have. Black women statistically are expected to marry men who are less educated and with less income than them, not more, white collar or blue collar. So that what you stated is not true. I went to college with many a white girls whose major goal was getting a Mrs. degree. I know many gold diggers of ALL hues. As a black woman I can say I am not desperate. I am in a healthy, loving relationship. I know many black women like this. We are not all desperate. The marriage rates of black men and black women are not vastly different like you want to believe. 41% of black men and 43% of black women have never been married. Some black women do build up black men, but some black men don't like yourself don't want black women, and see what you want to see. Newsflash, black women wash and douche. Some of us know how to cook, and some of us know what to do with a man, but sometimes we waste that knowledge on men not deserving of us. Men like you. I will inform my husband he no longer loves me because he as a white man has had 400 years of me. I will also note that the biggest benefactor of welfare is WHITE women, not black women. I know lots of overly dressed people of all races working in high rises who are single. All in all, it seems your comment was the typical lashing out at the thing you claim you want nothing to do with. I realize white men are not saviors, and that good men come in every race, why have you not figured that out? White women are not the answer to every black man's prayers. Thank you, Siditty 53 comments: Siditty, That anon's comment didn't even deserve a response from you. Great post none the less. I hope nobody out there is listening to assholes like this as it pertains to anything, but especially not to personal hygiene. The vagina is a self-cleaning organ. As long as you take regular baths, douching does more harm than good. And learn how to spell, motherfucker. Siditty, Congrats on the baby!! When did you find out? I'm amazed that people find enough words to say such crap. Just sad. I must say, this comment by anonymous isn't new to me...I've heard it all...while reading it, I had my violin playing in my head. With that being said, I have no need to entertain him, for ignorance isn't worthy. BTW, are you expecting Siditty? If so, CONGRATS!! (I'm piggybacking from the other comment) Roslyn, Your comment is hilarious! Ok, I see that I'm slow, for I should have read your new title "Knocked Up Since 2008." Once again, congrats and may you have a healthy pregnancy, birth, and baby :) When are men going to realize the issues is THEM. What a sad and pathetic troll. That angry little boy must have been burnt badly be the Black woman who he still so obviously wants. That post actually made me laugh. Yes, congrats to you and your husband. What a great way to start the new year off. Just like a disgruntled, self hating Black man.... SMH. He may think a white woman being a "silent partner" is the answer to a Black man's prayers, but what happens when that gets old? And it also goes to show you how ignorant this fool really is. He's gonna blurt out that Black women are good for receiving a welfare check. He REALLY needs to check out the real stats on the black to white ratio of welfare recipients. I'm sick of these super dumb and ignorant Black men who think that white women are their savior from being real men. Typical. Just another loser with his pointless mindless comments. Congratulations Siditty on the upcoming bambino. Zomg! A SiBaby!! Congrats. --- As for that anonymous comment someone was so "nice" to leave you, it sounds like the crap I'd get from black men who didn't want to look my way........until a white guy was watching or with me. "Sparks fly between us black men and white women but black women white men battery been ran out!!! " Here's hoping one of those sparks flies off and activates the spell check function for him next time. Clippy is there to help, not steal your soul. I think. First off , no more troll feeding PLEASE. Second, congrats to the bun in the oven! "The vagina is a self-cleaning organ. As long as you take regular baths, douching does more harm than good. And learn how to spell, motherfucker." LOL! Roselyn, Long time.Good to see you about. That is a Paper man. And if anyone deserves that its a non black woman. I wish all those would actually end up with White women. " So true. These men don't even stay with these white women they run to. Also next time you see a celeb BM/WW couple. Notice how uncomfortable the man is. The only person I have seen comfortable in his relationship is Seal. That seems like a genuine relationship. Most of them seem to have a trophism aura. And I think their real intentions catch up with them later on. That is why they split and are too embarrassed to go back to BW so they keep running through non BW. African men have like a 98% failure rate in these relationships. They better face their short comings as men in this society whether this is a result of racism or themselves. Blaming Black women will only carry on for another few years. Once the population of fatherless biracial kids grows, they will have to face the truth that they are Paper men. That comment made me laugh...what an idiot...anyways, I too have written a bit on this subject if you care to read: See, I actually started taking him seriously. I was getting wounded by his words, until I realized all the misspelled words, and then I though "Epic FAIL!". And did he just ask black women to DOUCHE! That is really...odd. Man it must suck to be his wife... I know you don't know me (reading your blog since early last year) but CONGRATS on the baby! Man, I'm going to feel like such a dork if you're not pregnant lol. Siditty, may I request that you never waste a second or a minute on these people ever again? You're expecting, for Goodness's sake. This can't be good for any mother. I am not ruffled by this comment, really. Then again, I'm neither a BW, BM, WW or WM. People like this run wild and free in the streets, and many times we may not be able to identify them. What they do is beyond my control, so I let nature run its course and I let them do as they please. With the good comes the bad, and eventually, we'll all have what we deserve. I don't feel a need to bash anyone here, I understand there are temptations and/or obligations that are hard for us to cope with. As you have a successful marriage Siditty, I feel you should not have to answer to such people. -- Jade It never ceases to amaze me how these "cowards" on the Internet are not man/woman enough to put there name behind their vicious venom. If you are going to have the audacity to spew ignorance, at least be bold with it. Congrats to you and your husband. Just remember, the nausea only lasts for a little while. You may get lucky and never get it. Not only is his comment extremely self-hating it's also incredibly sexist. Sad. Really? Damn... I've dated (done) many women from many races and ethnicities. But the one's I like best are the nice, funny, smart, hot, physically fit, religious, .... Race plays no factor in my choices. What's wrong with this quack? Mommy didn't hug him enough? P.S. Congrats on the baby!! And what is up with these guys and feminine hygiene anyway? Terence Howard and his damned baby wipes. Sorry, there's a reason why the damned things say BABY wipes. Goodness knows what his women are eaten up with, but it says more about his taste than it does the women. ". after the very first sentence, I stopped reading. it just wasn't worth MY time and energy. wow that email was crazy, especially the statement about white men having us for 400 years. I don't whether to think this man is mentally insane or an asshole that wrote this as a sick joke. enough about the complaints of black women being too hard to deal with, if this man is for real about what he thinks, then his arguing is proof that black women can't be ignored and he may be targeting some fucked internal issues towards his female counterparts to put himself on a pedestal. btw loved ur response siddity, very classy Ignorance is bliss, I suppose! Congratulations on the baby!! This fool is coming straight out of a comic book. If White women know how to keep a man, then why do the US Census Bureau statistics report that more white women have been divorced than non-White women? Total US female divorce statistics as of 2001: -White: 24.2% -White (non-Hispanic): 25.4% -Black: 20.1% -Hispanic (of any race): 15.9% -Asian: 10.4% *()* @Anon 8:10am- That doesn't disprove anything. If there are more white females on welfare than blacks females, then white females are benefiting from the program more.... Congratulations on the baby! Re: Douching. What this idiot wouldn't know. A 1995 survey quoted in the University of Rochester study found that 27 percent of U.S. women age 15 to 44 douched regularly, but that douching was more common among African-American women (over 50%) than among white women (21%). Thanks Mr. Noface :) --------- LOL Roslyn :) --------- As for that anonymous comment someone was so "nice" to leave you, it sounds like the crap I'd get from black men who didn't want to look my way........until a white guy was watching or with me. I used to hate that, why all the sudden am I so desirable after a white man starts looking at me. That tells me about the mindset of some of these men. Their self esteem and self hatred is so low, that the only way you can be deemed attractive by them, is if a white man deems you so. LOL @ Here's hoping one of those sparks flies off and activates the spell check function for him next time. Clippy is there to help, not steal your soul. ---------- Thank you Jade, you are correct :) ----------- Really? Damn... I've dated (done) many women from many races and ethnicities. But the one's I like best are the nice, funny, smart, hot, physically fit, religious, .... Race plays no factor in my choices. And that is how it should be :) ". Numbers wise, more white women are on welfare than black woman. How is that false? I think you really want to believe Good Times and BET is an accurate reflection of African Americans. P.S. I have never been on welfare, and I have known way more black women who have never been on welfare vs. those who are on welfare, but we must all be magical negros. ---------------- Grata, Stop using facts. Not to mention if that man hangs out with woman with stinky coochies, that is on him, not anyone else. ------------- On the Baby for Rhonda, Beautifully Conjured Up, Kristin, simone, digitalcoyote, Orchid, Funkystarkitty, Boom, (fŭng'kē) [blak] [chik], Austingirl: I found out about three weeks ago. I am nine weeks along, and thank you guys for all the congrats :)... Anon, This is my opinion, and my opinion only. Yes it is socially acceptable to date a dark skinned indian woman over a black woman in America. Even if the woman is darker than most african americans, she still isn't black. I have known countless whites mention they are ok with IR relationships with asians, hispanics, and other races, but they can't cross the line of black, no matter what, and it is due to negative stereotypes. Black on the totem pole is still the lowest of the low, even if it is lighter than those of other races. I remember once a girl at my school cried in middle school because a white guy joked she was darker than me. He thought it was funny that black people were called black, when most are brown, and decided to use her skin coloring as an example. He didn't say it as a negative, but the concept of being dark was such a hard thing for her to deal with. I do think most of the time when white guys think asian, they think east asian though. In the racial hierarchy, a east asian would be more acceptable than an indian girl. what i'm about to say, i've said on at least 5 other blogs in the last few weeks: i'm so glad i don't live in the states anymore!! there is nowhere in the world--in all of the rest of the world, trust me- where an indian/asian woman, any indian/asian woman just by virtue of being indian/asian, is 'higher up' on ANY hierarchy than a black american woman. in the rest of the world, other determiners rule, like nationality, language, education. of course, ideally, there'd be no pecking order at all, but if i have to choose . . . I would like to say a big congrats to Siditty on her pregnancy. I have been a fan of your blog for the past year and a bit, although I'm in London. I have post a few comments about the lack of WM/BW relationships in London and I'm hearing more BW in the UK making a point that WM are not interest in dating BW in London. I don't know about the rest of the UK, I have heard that WM in Manchester and other Northern cities are more open to dating BW but in London it very rare for a WM to approach a BW or to see many BW/WM couples.I don't know why this is?I wish someone would find out!! Another fact that comes in to play is how BW are not seen as 'hot' in the mainstream media and some BW are argue that this puts us at disadvantage in the dating arena. Siditty Congratulations on your pregnancy. One of the reasons, why I am so glad that I believe in God, because I find Anon's comments hiliarous and in due course Jesus will him out. Once again God bless on your pregnancy. This post was too funny! This guy is a jerk/loser. It is pointless, senseless...I wish that people like him wore ID tags in public so that the normal people are forewarned. LOL Congratulations on the pregnancy! I rarely ever use the N word but I will today: Nigga please... For REAL. I can't even waste my time on responding to this shit. This stupid bastard needs to drink hot bleach... How many times do I have to explain this to you?. The fact of the matter is the biggest benefactor of welfare in sheer numbers is WHITE WOMEN, that isn't false. You said it was false. It isn't false, and you seem upset that I don't think that most black women live on welfare. White people like to think black people commit crimes against whites in record numbers . They never want to take into consideration those who commit crimes have a better chance at getting a white victim versus a black victim based upon sheer numbers, they just like to believe blacks are criminals. Congrats Sid!!!! LOL! Seattle Slim, I love you....you are hilarious. Nigs like him are the reason I've never dated black. They seem to be the majority of black males. YUCK. Those white chicks whose virtues he extols can sooooo totally have his dumbass. Please delete future crazy posts like this joker. How nice about the bambino! Congrats! Badblackckitty, WORD! Wow this guy could not even s-p-e-l-l. It is a waste of space. He sounds like he didn't make it past 3rd grade but geez my vocabulary was way better than that! No wonder he's a laborer - if he even has a job. Congrats Siditty on the baby. That guy is really angry, wow! This is really sad that he would feel that way, but who cares. I believe in krama and eventually it will come back to bite him and others like him. Also next time you see a celeb BM/WW couple. Notice how uncomfortable the man is. --------------------------------- Also the next time you see a celebrity BM/WW couple, notice how long they stay together and notice what she brings to the relationship table and what she takes from the table when she leaves. Usually she brings nothing to the table because she is not a professional(although there are some exceptions).She usually stays with him for about 5 to 6 years (sometime it could be a bit longer) and when she leaves she takes half of his net worth or more. She can do one hell of an acting job to get what she wants (which is his money)but he is too stupid to realize it. All I have to say to her is get paid(you go girl, 5 to 6 years of misery just to be rich for a life time with money that you did not have to work for because you never attended college and you met a rich sucker who was dumb enough to marry you and not sign or read the prenuptual agreement). Great response hit all the key points and factors. I'm not shocked its very nice to meet another strong, intelligent, well rounded black woman. These guys are so damaged many will cling to white women even when called the N word by them. What they are really afraid of is black women becoming too comfortable doing without them and indifference is settling in. They imagine everyone is desperate for them in the hopes of getting attention. Isn't it funny how black women are taught to marry down, but black men should seek someone on their level...which doesn't include black women. They'll do and say anything to justify the fact that they tend to take their cues from white men. Many are now extolling Asian women when they want to cut down white women. It's best just not to focus on black men or what they think. Anon said: "Also the next time you see a celebrity BM/WW couple, notice how long they stay together and notice what she brings to the relationship table and what she takes from the table when she leaves." THINK Michael Strahan, Lou Rawls, Glen Rice, Amani Toomer...the list goes on and on. As the number of black men decline in sports...so goes the women. I'm afraid many of them will soon think black women are now suitable for them once they are down on their luck. Hope they live and remain with ww to be honest.

Pete| 11.5.10 @ 7:35AM If the blacks ever wake up to the damage the teachers unions are doing to their children, the Democratic Party will be sunk for then it will have to chose between millions of votes (blacks) or millions of dollars from the teachers unions. Alert1201| 11.5.10 @ 7:52AM I agree. More harm is done to the black population by the school system then can be imagined, yet they continually support the whose who have made the school system the mess that it is. The same is true for abortion. joli| 11.5.10 @ 8:43PM My friend told me that her freshman daughter had to sit and listen to her science teacher expound the glories of abortion for the good of the environment. As I think about what to do with my own kids when they begin to enter high school, I'm trying to decide whether the trade-off of having social and performing opportunities outweighs the necessity of having to re-teach science, history (Howard Zinn), and social studies every single day to deprogram them from the lies that are endemic in our schools. Jocon307| 11.6.10 @ 6:29AM Joli, I will give you the advice I give all parents, that was passed on to me by my own mom, which she learned by being "schooled" by her own father. It is the "pound on the table" method. When your child comes home from school and starts to tell you what teacher said today, and it is nonsense, you pound on the table, and expound the truth, and you keep at it, until the child understands that teacher is spouting nonsense. It worked for my mom, it worked for me and it worked for my own child. Although I have to say the schools she attended were pretty good, including the Bayonne, NJ (a very patriotic, Reagen democrat type town) public schools. But the point remains, I always spent a lot of time with her on her school work, esp. in high school, and I tried very hard to get the larger points across. Had her schools been dreadful, we would have had to make a change. As a parent you must pay attention to what other people are attempting to put in your child's "head full of mush" as Rush Limbaugh says. Hey, I should also give a big shout out to the Salvation Army of Jersey City, where my kid went to day care. Fantastic people, filled with the Love of God. They did a great job and for that they'll never be forgotten by us. Big D| 11.8.10 @ 3:59PM Joli - you have two choices: Homeschool or Private School. Neither are easy, and the latter is expensive, considering that you're paying for education twice (my property taxes support public indoctrination / "education", which I refuse to subject my kids to, and then tuition for a good Christian school). It sucks, but it's my kids and well worth it. SonOfSam| 11.5.10 @ 9:19AM Forty five years ago, white "progressives" launched the war on poverty. After four decades and trillions of dollars spent, poverty is just as widespread, and the inner cities are far more dangerous. They don't have a "gang problem", since these are far more than gangs: they are PRIVATE ARMIES ON AMERICAN SOIL. Vast swaths of American cities are effectively no longer part of the United States of America. The only people who have benefited from all this are the upper class bureaucrats who run the programs and dole out the welfare checks, after they have kept most of the money to pay for their own bloated salaries, pensions and lifetime medical -- no ObamaCare for them, they're above all that. the rich get bailouts the poor get handouts the middle class pays for it all gearjammer| 11.5.10 @ 12:11PM Now, now do not pick on the rich. Our fearless leader Rush insists we kiss their asses each and every day. So be careful, very careful or they will call you a ,gulp, Rino. Pick on the poor-bash the minimum like Rush's pal did in West Va.-like Rush says " it works every time you try it". jstwndring| 11.5.10 @ 2:06PM What the hell are you talking about? I want a specific instance where Rush was picking on the poor. I want a specific instance where Rush's friend (who?) in West Virginia was picking on the poor. I guess most of what Rush says goes right over your head. Defending the private property rights of Americans is the only thing i've heard Rush do regarding the topic of wealth. It sounds to me like you are the one who has the problem. Get past your jealousy. Get past your petty envy. Realise that this is AMERICA and you should be able to keep most of what you make, regardless of economic level. It's called liberty. Without private property rights any talk of freedom is academic. Of course, freedom for the masses always has been hard for the haters of liberty to understand. geaqrjammer| 11.5.10 @ 5:23PM His pal Racie lost to Manchon.He came out against the minimum wage and this cost him votes. Rush always says the most conservative candidate wins but Manchon who supports the minimum wage won, thus the less conservative candidate won proving Rush is wrong when he says the most conservative guy or gal always wins. Whether you like it or not the economic fairness issue is a big problem for you natives who dwell in the Rushbo tribe. We can at least be sympathetic to some silly increase in the min wage, which evidence proves is not the end of the world. gearjammer| 11.5.10 @ 5:44PM I heard one hardworking guy call Rush a few years back. He'd been working hard 40 years but lost his job and looked for work but came up with nothing. He had sadness in his voice that he,d have to take unemployment and in a defeated voice asked Rush if doing this for a bit was ok. The pompous rich a-hole Limbaugh in a less than approving voice said do what ya gotta do but actuallt told the guy that accepting the money might ruin his charactor as a man.Rush is an extremist. Smart and talented full of drive , but smarter people have walked the planet. Look into Aristotle and his golden mean. Donna| 11.6.10 @ 9:26AM I noticed many mistakes in your reply including your opinion. You must be product of government schools. hj hudson| 11.6.10 @ 11:00AM Man, there are some hateful people on this blog. Gearjammer made a salient point about Rush, and he is attacked in the rudest fashion. It makes me sick to read mostof the posts on AmSpec. Rush is a muli-millionaire bigot and braggart with no compassion, except for his buddies--the right-wing super rich. He has the soul of a hyena. Louise in MO| 11.6.10 @ 11:28PM This post made absolutely no sense. What RX are you on? It would be helpful to use sentences and genuine English words. It has always amazed me how a person will waste time listening and/or watching those they totally disagree with or downright hate. I suggest you get a life and listen to those of your own kind. Soccerjock| 11.5.10 @ 8:10PM It may not be the end of the world, but there is a lot of evidence that an increase in the minimum wage costs jobs at the margin. It certainly protects the wages of those under union contract whose wages are connected to the minimum wage. But the evidence I've seen shows that minority group unemployment goes up with every increase in the minimum wage. I think the best way to lower minority group unemployment rates is to lower the minimum wage, or eliminate it altogether. Union contract rates could be tied to some other economic indicator. All the minimum wage does is result in higher rates of unemployment for those people who are unskilled or just entering the labor force. SeattleBruce| 11.5.10 @ 8:56PM 'thus the less conservative candidate won proving Rush is wrong ' WV has been Democrat since forever, and you're going to point to this one race with a popular Democrat Gov. running for Senate as your example. Bad choice. Donna| 11.6.10 @ 9:28AM Wasn't this the Govn'r who told BO to shove it? Rich D| 11.6.10 @ 7:06PM The minimum wage was instituted to reduce black employment at the expense of white employment It worked then and still does. Hoppy| 11.7.10 @ 12:12PM Well, we could always follow the Democratic party model, sort of a twist on Robin Hood. "Rob the rich, and bullshit the poor." And if you are going to spout off about individual candidates, the least you could do is learn to spell their names. NegroX| 11.7.10 @ 3:21PM Nice try troll boy. You are an idiot and your grammar proves it. Tex Expatriate| 11.5.10 @ 3:51PM You must be a socialist, Gearjammer. You demonstrate the inability of socialists to be rational or to understand economics. Rush only points out that it is the rich who invest the money that is used to grow business in the world. The rich and the small businessman who stakes everything on his personal business gamble. gearjammer| 11.5.10 @ 5:36PM Actually, I fought commies in Viet Nam and enjoyed it. And, actually alot of middle class people own stocks etc too. Not just the rich. Whether you like it or not politics is more than an economics lesson. Emotion plays a role. I am not jealous of Rush-I consider him a troubled and terribly flawed man. The meglomania he demonstates each day is alarming. He is a detached out of touch conservative elite just like Obama and his crowd of swank set elites are. When, do you think is the last time rush spent time with regular people who have a tough life ? I am ok money wise but I stuck with my old friends over the richer and more sophisticaed I know. Not all-alot of my wealthy friends are ok and do not go nuts if somebody gets a minimum wage bump or unemployment insurance. They do get angry when it all goes overboard. But, let a guy get an extra buck a week and Rush goes nuts. the top one per cent making aall that money in income is another matter-we needs answers to thes ecopncern is all I am saying-sorry if I am looking ahead but clas warfare is not dead and the dems will ride it to a comeback, if alls we do is be rude and crude like ruush is against the poor. SeattleBruce| 11.5.10 @ 8:59PM 'When, do you think is the last time rush spent time with regular people who have a tough life ?' When did this become about Rush? He's not the one spending us into oblivion, or didn't ya notice? We need to oppose those people. To that degree, who cares about Rush's weaknesses??! DBinNJ| 11.5.10 @ 10:24PM You sound like a logical guy so I let you determine the what is the correct answer. You like the minimum wage so much why isn't the minimum wage $20.00 per hour or maybe $35.00 per hour? After all shouldn't the minimum wage be living wage? Interested Conservative| 11.5.10 @ 11:01PM Here's an even better one, DB - How about letting a company building a factory in a city set the workers' annual salary at twice the cost of an average home in that city? In San Francisco, that would somewhere around $1million, but in Detroit it would be somewhere between $10,000 and $20,000? What's a living wage if not the means to buy a home? Think GM or Ford would take that deal? The UAW? Think it would repopulate Detroit? Pragmatist| 11.6.10 @ 2:25AM Why stop there. Why not set the minimum wage at $250,001 a year. Then everyone who has a job would be "rich." Then again, people without a job would be much poorer. People with a job, would be happy and gladly re-elect their representatives for the great favor of their guaranteed minimum wage. Of course, everyone who could not generate goods and services for their employer in excess of $250.001 plus another 20% or so in mandated benefits would loose their jobs. [But, hey, you've got to break some eggs...] Either they would be laid off, or their employers would go bankrupt operating at such a loss. Industry would have to automate much more and lean how to operate without depending on all those low skilled less than $250K employees. But at some point an equilibrium would be reached with a small population of very higher earners, paying very high taxes in order to support a larger population of people unable to obtain legal employment reduced to living off of government assistance. Many jobs would disappear entirely. There would be fewer taxicabs in New York, but those cabbies would all earn over $250K a year, charging higher fares to a smaller population of passengers. Everyone would be much poorer with the employed taking home after taxes a very small portion of their 250K wages and the remainder living of subsistence of perhaps a fraction of that. Government would sponsor massive training programs so that the motivated could lift themselves from poverty by learning the skills needed to produce 250K (+20%) of value for their employers. Some would succeed, but there would be no way to enter at some lower salary, say 40K, and work your way up to 250K. That would be illegal. Even so, there would be an illegal shadow economy of people paying undocumented sweatshop workers to program computers under the table for sub-minimum wages. Many would languish in the ranks of the permanently unemployed. Even those making $250K a year would be living at very low standard. Organizing society in such wasteful way would mean many fewer goods and services would get produced and the GDP pie would be much smaller for everyone, regardless matter how it was sliced. Of course this thought experiment is extreme to illustrate a point. But the principle is the same. It differs only in degree. The minimum wage creates no new value in the world. It produces nothing. If someone can produce value in excess of the minimum wage, the minimum wage is a wage they could have negotiated with their employer, anyway. If someone cannot produce value in excess of the minimum wage, they loose their job and it becomes illegal to employ them. Any perceived benefit is an illusion. thinkerfan| 11.7.10 @ 12:51AM Rush is not against anybody making money. Rush is against the government setting the wages. Rush wants the market to set the price. If the market thinks $20 is a fair wage for burgerflippers then it is fine with him. JJ| 11.7.10 @ 12:00PM From a fellow Vietnam Vet: Dear gear, uh, you might want to check back with your shrink for further treatment of an obvious PTSD. Here in America we only expect that the average person will "desire" to work for a living and do the best that they can on a daily basis. For the truly needy there is no more generous nation on earth than the one you and I served for. "Rush hates the poor?" This is Rushspeak filtered through a liberally sick mind. NegroX| 11.7.10 @ 3:23PM Geartroll, take your class warfare scam somewhere else. Nolann Ryann| 11.6.10 @ 8:59PM You're proof that veterans shouldn't be universally revered. And before you wave your combat experience in front of my face; one tour in Iraq and two in Afghan. Quite frankly you are mentally challenged. A combat veteran does not give you the instant credibility that you seek when you wave a flag and right sleeve patch. JJ| 11.7.10 @ 12:02PM From a fellow vet. Double ditto's. :) Bob K.| 11.5.10 @ 7:44AM One can only hope that you are correct. But these changes are also going to have to take place at the state level where the local teacher's unions contribute very heavily to legislators who play ball with them. The continual rise in school taxes hasn't seemed to made them any weaker at the state level. Money trumps votes in many cases. Donna| 11.6.10 @ 9:40AM Where I live (ultra conservative) N. Georgia our state won money for the “Rush” to the Top or whatever BO’s program was. Guess where 75% of the money is going? TEACHER’S SALARIES. The remaining; computers and technology. UGH!!!! My child spent two years in a public school and it was all we could take. Like the one writer in these comments, I kept having to de-program him on ecology, environment and teach him to write papers and read something other than poetry. Public schools are a mess and I pray every day for the children of America in these schools. They are hostile breeding grounds for the “No Child Left Behind”. JJ| 11.7.10 @ 12:08PM Here in NC they finally threw the progressive school board bums out. We are now attempting to move back to neighborhood schools and away from busing for diversity. The NAACP is shouting racists. So be it. Alert1201| 11.5.10 @ 8:01AM The answer is at the state. In Texas there are no teachers unions, whe have federations that provide health insurance and legal protection without the heavy handedness of union. gypsy| 11.5.10 @ 9:24AM sounds good to me. As a teacher in a frost-bitten bluestate gulag, all I want is my for union to protect me from kids who want to take a swing at me when they fail because they refuse to do any assignments, and administrators who tell me that somehow its all my g-d fault because somehow I'm not "understanding" enough. I don't need them -- or anyone-- telling me how to vote. I also sure as hell don't want them hi-jacking a big chunk of my union dues to give to politicians I would never vote for, and who wouldn't cross the street to shake hands with me unless there's an election going on Sheila| 11.5.10 @ 1:25PM Not completely true, and not that big a deal anyhow. There are no branches of the national teachers' unions, but there are in-state unions here in Texas. Regardless of union affiliation, the teachers are all trained and certified by union-run ed schools. Even in Christian schools, in order to gain state accreditation (useful if you want your child's achievements to transfer to public high school, for example), all the teachers are "certified" - i.e. graduates of the same lousy ed programs. Because of the salary differential, many of them shift between public and private teaching. It's easy to differentiate those who've taught Christian school their whole career from those "perky" and "casual" younger teachers who began in public schools - avoid them like the plague they are. Most teachers are perfectly nice individuals - and thick as two short planks. School of Hard Knocks| 11.5.10 @ 2:27PM Ooops. Yes Texas has teachers unions, with names like The National Education Association and the American Federation of Teachers, just like the article states. Unless of course Texas has once again seceded from the Union? (pun intended). dal| 11.7.10 @ 6:43AM Alert I have seen no evidence of unions not being in texas. There is so much documentation to get rid of a teacher in texas. I also see plenty of incompetent educators in my childrens classroom, plus there global warming crap agenda. ND teaparty lover| 11.5.10 @ 8:12AM As a resident of north dakota, supporter of hoeven, husband of a teacher, the teachers of north dakota were split of supporting hoeven when he ran for governor. My wifes school were about 75% for him and the union was told to stay nuetral in the race. But the teachers union in the last weeks of the election spent its money to defeat him. he promised the teachers everything they wanted(nd teachers basically have a 401k so they dont need state or fed bailout) but they hate republicans here also. If you want to see how education pensions and results of childrens test scores nan improve(teachers get no health care at retirement) look at nd. Bruce| 11.5.10 @ 10:46PM What the hey, what happened to my post ? As a winner of 4 man to man gun fights, it's not good for someone's health to do that ! Clinton nee Publius | 11.5.10 @ 9:14AM The reality is that public-run anything gives you an exclusive monopoly wherein the provider avoids accountability. Without accountability, failure is the only outcome. If we are to ever solve the issues of worker security, pay, performance and quality we will have no choice but to admit that public education has been a complete failure. On the bright side of things, we now spend enough on public school pupil tuition to be able to afford to send every primary and secondary school child to private school and pay to send them to a 4-year college and still save some money to boot. That's how big of a debacle public education has become. Bill Hussein O'Stalin| 11.5.10 @ 9:23AM Well said! Pedagogue| 11.5.10 @ 9:59AM Since 1958 education has been the most expensive component of municipal abudgets. This is actually before the NEA became a union. Schools don't work (especially in inner cities) because the single parent doesn't care. The gangs inthe street are gangs in the school. One almosts suspects they have crew served weapons. Meanwhile teachers of varying ability work long hours doing paperwork. Most of the paperwork is ridiculous but it has to be done. None of this has anything to do with civilizing the next generation who's only use will be as organ doners. mames| 11.5.10 @ 10:48AM So much to kill so little time to do it! The GOP must muster up the kind of courage they have not displayed in over 40 years (Reagan does not couNt - he was undermined by the Rinos all the way). No more half assed Rinos like the Bushes, Mc Cain and the rest of spinal deprived. The NEA and all public unions must be outlawed. They have no business using our funding to lobby for more bennies from us. No more state, NEA, Fed unions, period. And while they are at it no more government schools either - aren't we forced to buy education whether we want it or not???? SeniorD| 11.5.10 @ 10:55AM In the minds of Teacher's Unions, the music composer turned High School Music Teacher from Mr. Holland's Opus should be viewed as the archetype teacher. This icon of dedication saw one student become Governor, another a successful businessman and a third a star athlete. Would the reality even faintly echo the movie. How many unionized teachers send their children to private schools? How many unionized teachers work to the rule and not to the interest of their students? How many unionized teachers see their union dues go to supporting Socialist dogma spawned from the Communist-follower John Dewey? MikeD| 11.5.10 @ 1:59PM SeniorD... WELL SAID! How many of you remember that the very first thing J.F.K. did the day he was inaugurated (After the ceremonies) was to sign an EXECUTIVE ORDER giving the public employees the right to collective bargaining and to strike. That absolutely needs to end! Public employees make more than those of us who actually work for a living. And that's just the first step. We need to cut the Federal budget 10% all across the board each year for the next five years. No exceptions. All federal employees, including elected officials, must be put on Medicare immediately, and get no other pensions than Social Security. Who the hell do they think they are setting themselves above all of us WHO PAY FOR THEM! They all need to know that "We're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it any more!" TomB| 11.5.10 @ 11:47AM "The education of all children, from the moment that they can get along without a mother's care, shall be in state institutions at state expense." - Karl Marx Albert| 11.5.10 @ 12:17PM You should add the after-the-fact "co-authors" names as well: President Bozo, Hillary Clinton, Harry Reid, Jerry Brown, Barbara Boxer, etc... There names are legion. Sheila| 11.5.10 @ 1:32PM Interesting, isn't it, how none of our Founding Fathers (dead White men, every last one of them) went to public schools? Sending one's children to public schools is defacto child abuse. MikeD| 11.5.10 @ 2:02PM There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution about public education. The federal government has no business having anything to do with schools. That is a local responsibility, with selected state involvement in certain cases. I do not think the state should be in it either. Stephanie| 11.5.10 @ 12:12PM I live in rural eastern Virginia and I just read in our local paper that our schoolboard has just voted on getting rid of the validictorian award. They said it causes too much anxt for those who don't stive to do well. I am stunned. Sheila| 11.5.10 @ 1:38PM In my district they carry out the GPAs to as many as six decimal places to determine the valedictorian - always an Asian. Because of all the Chinese and Indian kids with their obsessive grade-chasing and cram school attendance, White kids with GPAs between 3.5 and 4.0 can't even make it into the top 10%, which has become a problem for many trying to gain admission to the best in-state colleges (I have no personal dog in this hunt; kept my kids in private school). The district is considering dropping class ranking because of this issue; the immigrant parents are up in arms - they want that number to brag to their friends about and to bludgeon the Whites with. Texas Mom 2012| 11.5.10 @ 1:55PM I don't care what the race of a valedictorian is, if you EARN it you deserve it. We have Valedictorians at our school but they also honor magna cum lause and summa cum laude graduates. My son, who is autistic but always mainstreamed and took some honors classes as well, ended up with a 3.12 and in the forth quintile or bottom 40% of his class. The upside is that his SAT scores would get him in any school in the country so his public school seems to have done its job. We moved to Sugar Land because of the excellent public school system willing to pay the higher real estate taxes for the privilege of better schools. fetoau| 11.6.10 @ 10:04PM AMEN!!!! Hoppy| 11.7.10 @ 12:24PM I suspect that his Mom and Pop had more to do with his SAT scores than his public education did. Al Adab| 11.5.10 @ 12:14PM What the Left is about to learn is that they have exhausted their ability to buy votes both with taxpayer dollars and with promises. The well frankly is dry, yet the Left constituancy demands ever more. That will prove their undoing. Let us all hope that it does not mean riots in the streets when the "drugs" of other people's money is cut off. Albert| 11.5.10 @ 12:19PM "Let us all hope that it does not mean riots in the streets..." Unfortunately, hope is all we have on this point. Experience and history tell us otherwise. Be armed. Be prepared. Al Adab| 11.5.10 @ 2:30PM Indeed. See Greece, see France. CalMark| 11.5.10 @ 12:35PM Flawed basic premise: the Feds have a place in the education arena. No! The education system is in such awful shape because of Washington meddling with what should be local decisions. That's the kind of meddling that leads to big-bucks polarization of a basic function whose only political struggles should be at local school-board level. Seek| 11.5.10 @ 12:35PM Test. Jim | 11.5.10 @ 1:00PM Grow up, Gearjammer. The rich no more caused your or anyone else's misery than the man in the moon did. Of the people I personally know who have come to ruin, the reasons were credit card debt twice their annual income, all kinds of toys (snowmobiles, $50,00o "trucks" that will never see as much as a gravel driveway, vacations, eating out daily, etc.) and other such poor decision-making. It's really time for the "middle-class" to start taking responsibility for their own success or lack thereof, if only because the "screw the rich" nonsense it buys into each election cycle hasn't helped one bit. Wise up. shelflife| 11.6.10 @ 6:14AM so true. judging their lives by what they don't have rather than being grateful for what they do have. you can't spend your way to happiness. Christopher Manion| 11.5.10 @ 2:36PM "About 75 percent of the country's 17- to 24-year-olds are ineligible for military service, largely because they are poorly educated...." (link below);. Meanwhile, the retiring head of the NEA schoolworkers union (I can hardly call them "teachers") admits that they're not there for the kids, but for the teachers. (Link #2). As Bob Dole, would say, "where's the outrage?" Link 1: (1 of 2) [11/6/2009 5:24:50 PM] FOXNews link 2: shelflife| 11.6.10 @ 6:24AM "About 75 percent of the country's 17- to 24-year-possibly they would be rejected" - a bite of reality to those who rag on the military. most of them would be rejected and not because they're elite. Tex Expatriate| 11.5.10 @ 3:47PM I've never had much respect for teachers, even though the public schools I attended 61 years ago were truly public schools. However, most of the teachers I talk to today don't vote the way their unions donate their dues. ton| 11.5.10 @ 3:53PM The education establishment, like any other vast, bloated, and insulated government apparatus, exists ultimately for the perpetuation and aggrandizement of the institution. In other words, it exists for the personal benefit of adminstrators and teachers, not for the education of students. That is why tax monies inevitably are directed to salaries, benefits, extravagant retirement packages, lifetime health care, excessive vacation, non-work days, perks, travel (ie. "conferences), programs, initiatives, coordinators, directors, assistant directors, superintendents, ad infinitum. And since the union leadership as well as the academic establishment are fundamentally leftist, students are subjected to ever more strident proselytizing in the popular delusions of the left, from "queer studies" to "global warming," while basic literacy and mathematical competencies are neglected. The answer to the crisis is simple, though not palatable to those who prefer to abdicate their parental responsibility and hand over their children to highly-compensated baby sitters: PRIVATIZE THE SCHOOLS. There are many options: home schooling, parochial schools, church schools, private neighborhood schools and academies. Support private voucher and home schooling tax credit initiatives; reduce property taxes and other levies that currently fund the behemoth. Rescue your children. They are your children; and it is your money. keyboard jockey | 11.5.10 @ 4:20PM Classical Fail, A Look At The Fall Out From The Midterm Elections. Falling From Great Heights – A Cautionary Tale Of Son Worshiping. Icarus Syndrome. Pat| 11.5.10 @ 7:57PM During FDR’s New Deal and WWII over 60 years ago, American farmers were fed up with the way Democrats clamped ceilings on prices for their crops but adamantly refused to do the same for wages. The Democrats and the unions, a reasonably happy, long lasting marriage which didn’t start with and won’t end with the teachers. And Walter Reuther, iconic labor leader of the UAW, unashamedly explained exactly how the game should be played, you collect dues from members, you give some of their money to the Democrats while keeping some for yourself, they pass those laws which help your union. But let a teacher pat your kid on the head and tell the other Moms how bright she is and it’s “Walter Reuther who?”. It’s just not the same you say, young Miss Sweetsmile or old Mrs. Sternly, they’re not “real” union members, they don’t support crass union political practices, they think only of the children, teaching your kid is their life. When school children start paying union dues, your kid’s best interests will become important to the Teacher’s Union and the Democrats. Trouble in their marriage, the Teacher’s Union divorcing the Democrats – dream on, this isn’t the first grade and we’re too old for Story Time. jawin| 11.5.10 @ 8:58PM Public employees should not be allowed to unionize. Teachers are public employees. Teacher unions should be abolished. Education costs will decrease. Education will increase. Jade| 11.5.10 @ 10:05PM “Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted.”—Vladimir Ilyich Lenin “Education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed.”—Josef Stalin dadfly| 11.5.10 @ 11:40PM item 5 from the contract from america:%) if this is done then the federal involvement in education will be found to be both duplicative and unconstitutional. there will be no alternative but to defund it. GavInTucson| 11.7.10 @ 3:26AM We can go back and forth about the Constitution, the Left, the Right, Democrats, and Republicans. It doesn't matter. The people that are really in control of this country (it ain't us), have decided that we're ripe for the picking. And pick us, they will. Put down your ideology for a moment... there's a certain bearded man by the name of Bernake that, in collusion with others of his ilk, are about to run this country into the ground. Sell your stocks. Get out of the U.S.Dollar. Be prepared for the whirlwind that's about to come. You ain't seen nothing yet. Rmm| 11.8.10 @ 8:02PM Where does G. Soros come in ? He supposedly turned a cool billion $ by shorting the British pound. Could it be that he is at it again and Bernake just played into Soros's bet. uchu | 11.7.10 @ 7:07AM I agree. More harm is done to the black population by the school system then can be imagined NHThinker| 11.7.10 @ 10:05AM Read John Taylor Gatto's "The Underground History of American Education" and John Holt's "How Children Fail". The public school system was never intended to deliver education in the classic sense of the word but rather was engineered as a method of creating an artificial national concensus. You can remove your children from this institution of social engineering by sending them to private schools (as do the nation's eliete) or better yet by home schooling them yourself, as we did. ton| 11.7.10 @ 7:17PM You are correct; except that the "national consensus" to be created has always been a secularist, statist perspective (see the earlier quotes from Lenin). Government schools were created in this country to advance a Dewyite agenda AND as an antidote (originally WASPish but now totally secular) to the growing influence of parochial schools among a burgeoning Catholic immigrant population in the early 20th century. For Christian parents, the choice is simple: who will direct the formation of your children, the secular state or the Church? The position of the state is equally simple: give us your children and your money. Perusha| 11.7.10 @ 3:05PM After fifty years of dutifully trying to stay an informed citizen by paying regular attention to the American experiment in education, particularly K-12, by reading the Wall Street Journal et al, I long ago got the message. It’s a waste of my time! When the USA was started, the haves understood that the country couldn’t work if the have-nots could access their wealth. So, a voter was required to have a minimum amount of property. Say you’re going to play a game of poker. In order to be able to join in the action, you have to have something to LOSE. No chips = no game! So, as soon as the “poor” got into the pockets of the “rich”, it was inevitable that “public” this or that would grow, like topsy! A truly egalitarian schooling system would be based on the initial voting one--- The mother and father, would be SOLELY responsible to pay for their progeny, because, hey---they PRODUCED him or her! THEY did, not other people! Now, if they had relatives and/or friends who they could convince to help, fine. The public education racket is simply one of the expressions of that hoary ruse advertised back in the day, when “investing” in real estate was the hot subject--- Always use OPM---OTHER people’s money. Nomdepoof!| 11.7.10 @ 4:11PM Blinded by self interest. Teachers unions and the NEA (all other unions screaming for special deals) need to get edjumacated on the ramifications of Obamacare. States most very likely will go bankrupt under the unfunded mandates, lack of tax revenue from business closures and slashed federal medicare funding. What happens to teachers and other public employee pensions should/when bankruptcy occurs? Poof! Pensions all gone. Marc Jeric| 11.8.10 @ 1:22AM All strong unions destroy the industries in which they "work" - steel, automobile, textile, electronics, apparel, etc. The advent of teachers unions in the 1960's predicted with certainty the fall of our education to the level of Zimbabwe. We have now a nation of zombies full of self-esteem, illiterate, and voting for more of the same, i.e. Democrats. Rmm| 11.8.10 @ 9:40AM The wife and I were discussing this issue the other day and I had the question about this tenure thing trickling down to the grade school level. When did this happen and was the NEA behind it? I think there might be a causal relationship between poor education and tenured teachers who cannot be fired. REB| 11.8.10 @ 9:32PM Education has become the last bastion of fools and freeloaders for the most part...I pay crazy taxes and almost all of it goes to schools,I sent my own kids to private school for a couple years and then we homeschooled them they graduated 3.8 and a 4.0 I paid for it on less than 5000$ a year and still had to pay for the commie schools.How is the present system good or fair?...if I dont pay the extortion monies they steal my property...the mob has nothing on govt and union thugs,time to make an education count for something...to make it worth something and we all know that which you get for free you dont value very highly...make people pay for their own education! business | 11.11.10 @ 8:34PM Teachers unions and the NEA (all other unions screaming for special deals) need to get edjumacated on the ramifications of Obamacare. wholesale beads | 4.1.11 @ 3:46AM nice

Did Amazon Induce Vista's Premature Birth? 296 theodp writes ). Who says you have to shell out $999.95 for MS-Project to come up with accurate planned completion dates?" May be the best decision he ever made. (Score:5, Insightful) Re: (Score:3, Insightful) Re: (Score:3, Insightful) I didn't RTFA either. So anyone care to shine some light on this? Re:May be the best decision he ever made. (Score:5, Insightful) Think of it this way: What does it say when a coach of a sports team decides to jump ship to another team mid-season? Re: (Score:3, Funny) Re:May be the best decision he ever made. (Score:5, Funny) I think you meant inherent. You know, as in "Correcting errors of slashdot posters is an inherent behavior of a grammar nazi." Re:May be the best decision he ever made. (Score:4, Funny) class Investor: public Sheep {....... sort of thing? Re:May be the best decision he ever made. (Score:4, Funny) Investors implement the ISheep interface, but they clearly extend the doucheBag class. Re:May be the best decision he ever made. (Score:4, Funny) Re:May be the best decision he ever made. (Score:5, Funny) This incident has everything: (Score:5, Funny) This incident has everything: 1) Overpaying executives and underpaying the people who do the work. He got stock options worth $30 million just for coming to work the first day? 2) Corporate lies and sneakiness and manipulation. 3) Absolutely no caring for customers. 4) Behavior that will eventually sink the company. Remember, at one time IBM had 100% of the PC business. Remember, IBM lost $1 billion on OS2, and then lost another $1 billion. Even the biggest company cannot treat customers badly forever. The whole Vista experience oozes sleaziness. It's the true modern horror story. In comparison, the movie "Aliens" is for schoolchildren. What's a monster compared to Bill Gates in the role as software's "Dr. Death", degrading the quality of life of millions of people by hassling them and costing them more? One of the biggest and most respected IT magazines is rejecting Windows Vista: Save Windows XP [infoworld.com]. Quote: "More than 75,000 people have signed InfoWorld's "Save XP" petition in the three weeks since it was launched - many with passionate, often emotional pleas to not be forced to make a change." Re: (Score:2) Sorta like Rosemary's Baby? [youtube.com] [filmsite.org] Push the tush, then ram the pram... Or, sorta like the Medusa Touch? [youtube.com] Born, then hurt, then brain-dead... Coming to a church of the poisoned mind near you.. Re: (Score:2) I guess some metaphors should just be left alone. The same goes for some operating systems, no? May be the best decision he NEVER made. (Score:5, Insightful) Re:May be the best decision he NEVER made. (Score:5, Funny) You sure about that? Re:May be the best decision he NEVER made. (Score:5, Informative) Re: (Score:2) Re:May be the best decision he NEVER made. (Score:5, Interesting) No, this doesn't shift blame from Microsoft at all. That's why they didn't want this to be known. Release Candidates are supposed to be versions you *think* are worthy to ship, but need to undergo thorough testing to make sure. Any changes that need to be made should be minor. If he upgraded the project to RC1 status, and the testing showed that it wasn't anywhere near ready for release, then Microsoft could have downgraded it in a jiffy and said more work needed to be done. Or kept it at "RC1" for a long time before making "RC2" which would be the first real Release Candidate. Instead they ended up pushing it out the door in short order (maybe not RC1 specifically, but only a minor change from it), so as to make it look like the project was indeed almost ready for release and that's why the project leader left. As opposed to this version of events, which looks more like the project wasn't going good and the project leader got a better offer so he jumped ship and left the project to hang. It doesn't make MS look good at all. prep for the new job (Score:3, Interesting) Re:May be the best decision he NEVER made. (Score:5, Informative) Re:May be the best decision he ever made. (Score:4, Funny) Sweet. Maybe the best decision he made... maybe... (Score:5, Insightful) Re: (Score:2, Interesting) (anonymous because I work for one of mentioned companies) Re:Maybe the best decision he made... maybe... (Score:5, Funny) Re:Maybe the best decision he made... maybe... (Score:5, Interesting) Well, you can fault people for what they do to make money. But just making money? Who said Vista was rushed? (Score:3, Informative) Vista was in development for five years or so and it's still broken a year later. No one can be faulted for a month or two in that time frame. The problem was more in the process itself and all sorts of other executive characters have left the Soft over it. Non free software development, especially Microsoft style development, is broken. Re:Who said Vista was rushed? (Score:5, Interesting) Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:3, Interesting) Re: (Score:2) New improved "Lies, damn lies, and..." (Score:5, Funny) There are lies, damn lies, and material misstatements to the investment community. Re: (Score:2) Grudging MS defender (Score:2) Lots of people make future employment agreements without telling their current employers. Indeed, in my experience both as employee and employer, the majority do not tell. So... (Score:5, Funny) Re: So... (Score:3, Funny) Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) You mean this: [wikipedia.org] Re:So... (Score:4, Funny) What is so uniquely brilliant about this guy... (Score:5, Interesting) Re:What is so uniquely brilliant about this guy... (Score:5, Insightful) Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) Re:What is so uniquely brilliant about this guy... (Score:5, Informative) Re:What is so uniquely brilliant about this guy... (Score:5, Interesting) He also has a very engaging style of management. Instead of leading from afar he would hold weekly team meetings where he would give everybody the projects status, address concerns, and then kick off the festivities with clips from the weekly world news. The comedy skits he and Ian MacDonald would do were pretty funny most of the time. He projects the work hard play hard mentality. He always kept the team meetings stocked with several kegs of beer and always told the employees that if they drank too much take a cab home and expense it. I would say he was my favorite higher level manager at Microsoft. ----- Rom Beer .... (Score:4, Funny) That explains VISTA! Re:What is so uniquely brilliant about this guy... (Score:5, Interesting) He also runs one of the flattest orgs I've ever been in -- the depth of the tree from intern to Brian is quite shallow. Bringing a problem to his attention is subsequently easy, but you'd better be prepared to defend why it's a problem, why it's solvable, and why you think it's that important. My friends over at MS say that he really got the shaft over Vista. Sounds about right for the culture -- my read is that failure is penalized heavily there these days. The strategy for succeeding in an environment like that? Office Space. Easy answer (Score:2, Insightful) It's what he convinced someone to pay him. What you were expecting someone to give you something objective so you could rant about no one being worth that much? Sorry, but my metric is the one that matters, and it says he's worth what he got. Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) Given that he has released bi Re: (Score:2) Stop it! (Score:5, Funny) Amazon made the big mistake here... (Score:5, Insightful) Re: (Score:2) It's a matter of spin (Score:2) If he's left behind a mess then all he has to do to spin it his way is this: "Gee it looks like those guys at MS are really struggling since I left. That just shows how good I am." Re: (Score:2) Re:Amazon made the big mistake here... (Score:5, Interesting) Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:3, Insightful) OK why do reviews say RC1 sucks? (Score:2) Re: (Score:2) Yes I made a typo, sorry about that (Score:2) Typo above, RC1 should be SP1 (Score:2) Project link... (Score:3, Interesting) To help optimize how your Web pages are displayed, we are checking to see if a 2007 Microsoft Office program is installed. If this page does not automatically redirect, you have scripts disabled. See more information on scripts. Follow this link if the page is not redirected. Wait just a minute ... (Score:5, Interesting) I'll crank out a dodgy RC1 for tomorrow if you've got a couple of million for me too. That sounds like a pretty sweet deal. However, somehow I'm finding myself not actually surprised to know that Vista got prematurely elevated by someone who no longer gave a shit. That has the ring of truthiness about it. Cheers WinFS (Score:3, Interesting) Re:WinFS (Score:4, Informative) Re:WinFS (Score:4, Insightful) In fact, I doubt it will ever be a real product. It's vaporware that's resurrected every once and then (ever since the early NT vs. IBM's OS/2 times), designed to make Microsoft look like it has some flashy technology pointy-haired-bosses will not be able to tell it's a Really Bad Idea. And they won't because it will never, ever ship. WinFS is not real. Re: (Score:2, Interesting) what does Oracle use for storage? that depends. when running RAC (Real Application Clusters), we cheaped it out and used OCFS (Oracle Clustered File System), which was pretty close to just using raw devices and writing to them. typically a database doesn't need much more than a wrapper around storage, everything is stored in a proprietary/binary way anyways. a file system is just overhead or the middleman at that point. CrockFS (Score:2) Bad title (Score:5, Insightful) Re: (Score:2) Not the only factor (Score:5, Interesting) This is one of the factors that prompted the early release of the "business" version of Vista in late 2006 instead of it being released along with the home version in early 2007. Not that any businesses really wanted to touch that, but it let Microsoft say they'd lived up to their part of the agreement (in their own inimitable (innovative?) Microsoft way, of course). Re: (Score:3, Informative) Re: (Score:2) Re:Not the only factor (Score:5, Informative) Sleeps with the fishes! (Score:3, Funny) Granted, that wouldn't help them out in the short term, but they'd lose less executives if a savage beating was part of the severance package. Hell, they probably could advertise right here on slashdot for people willing to kick a Microsoft executive in the groin for free! Cheaper at Amazon! (Score:5, Funny) Hey, it's only $854.99 at Amazon! Not So Premature (Score:4, Funny) Vista wasn't really a "premature birth". It's more like putting every other ingredient into a recipe, then trying to fix it by baking it for too long. 150K is not that much (Score:2) Of course we don't get millions in stock and sign on bonuses either. I think the biggest bonus I ever got was 10% of my salary/year and $20K in unvested stock options. Re:150K is not that much (Score:5, Insightful) Re: (Score:2, Redundant) For top notch positions, the yearly salary is just cosmetic. Its not uncommon for high ranked managers and architects to make some silly salary like minimum wadge, but get hundreds over hundreds of thousands in bonus every year. Its a whole different ballbark from the average salaried developer monkey. No, I think like CEOs with far too high compensation packages, it is corporate executive management taking a page from the CEO. Screw the company, just pay me lots of cash. If M$ has this kind of problems wi Re: (Score:3, Funny) More if the programmers qualified under Amazon's "Get 4 for the price of 3" promotion. Re: (Score:2) The base salary is almost a joke after the other stuff. It was an accident (Score:4, Funny) How quickly we forget (Score:5, Insightful) There was tremendous pressure from all sides to release Vista. Don't think you can really place the blame on Valentine or Amazon for this one. Re: (Score:2) I guess delaying for another year and releasing it in better shape would have been a smarter move. Re: (Score:3, Interesting) Having worked in the software industry, I know sometimes you have to bite the bullet, ship the product and deal with the fallout. Would it have been better to wait? Maybe. Would the product have been better after another year of development? Maybe not, it's been over a year and they can't get the 1st service pack out. It's probably a testament to the tenacity of Microsoft that Vista was ever released a Nobody can ship Windows twice, Valentine was done. (Score:5, Interesting) Moshe Dunie pushed out two major versions of NT and floundered with NT5 (Windows 2000) and couldn't integrate 9x. Valentine came in, got the organization in order, and Windows 2000 was a success. He kept it up to merge the organization and features from Win9x, and miraculously got XP out in less than two years with nearly all the good planned features. Then, Longhorn became his NT5. Everybody in the organization had massive planned super-features that weren't fully baked in the ideas phase. The org got sidetracked by Springboard and Trainyard rollouts for XP. They had a massive brain drain getting rid of FTEs below level 88 and told long term contractors to take a hike. The employees that were left had their institutional knowledge too diluted and strung out trying to teach new H1B and college hires while managing Chinese and Indian outsource firms doing half the work. So what do you get? Vista. Valentine is no dummie. He pushed aside other execs that were wallowing in development hell projects. Now he was the one in development hell. He arranged his own exit on his terms. Good for him. Sinofsky will get a Vista replacement out by 2009 and it'll be a clean-up release that makes a lot of people happy. Lots of stuff cut from Vista will get back in, done right. He'll get a big feature release out by 2011. After that you won't see another major Windows release until 2015. This is someone's lie (Score:3, Interesting) Tell you what - HIS boss, whoever that is, as well as all the direct reports to that now gone suit should be fired w/o hesitation. Whether you like MS or hate them, this is textbook how not to develop and release a product so either someone's lying or, if this is really how MS functions then it speaks volumes for what's profoundly wrong with MS and why all their major releases are screwed up a little bit. Re:This is someone's lie (Score:5, Interesting) And that's about what happened. They got something out the door. IMO they got it out the door a little too soon, but there weren't going to be any more features added, it had been in beta a long time, and the holiday season was coming up. The calendar told them they had to release in time for that. After all that, it was a bit of a flop anyway. Sales were (and are) quite non-stellar. This goes back to (mostly) the lack of compelling features (these were the ones shed just to be able to ship something), combined with the confusing license soup. The lowest-end versions of Vista, in particular, offer nothing compelling over XP. In fact, a user of XP Pro - or probably even XP Home - would find things that were missing from Vista Home Basic and have to go out and spend to get that functionality again. And now we see Microsoft making something of a public embarrassment of itself on the world stage, fighting its battle with Yahoo in the press. If you're considering a proxy fight to initiate a hostile takeover, you don't talk about it in the newspapers. You communicate that privately to the Yahoo board, and if they again tell you where to shove it, you just taking action. You don't slug it out in the newspapers like a Brittany Spears saga. If there was any serious doubt that Microsoft has jumped the shark, I think Vista dispelled it handily. That doesn't mean Microsoft is not still a formidable player. They've got tons of money, some profitable product lines, and plenty of smart people working there. MSFT isn't going to disappear, and it's not going to go down without a fight. However, don't be surprised if it goes through some pretty radical re-orgs in the 3-7 year time frame. Particularly if MSFT gets what it's wishing for and buys Yahoo, there will be incredible challenges on The Road Ahead. Re: (Score:3, Interesting) The only real competition Vista has is XP. Re: (Score:2) Re: (Score:3, Interesting) Sorry but I'm quite satisfied with XP. It's solid as a rock and I haven't seen a crash in years. Re: (Score:3, Insightful) If XP crashes, something is wrong and it's not the OS. Re: (Score:3, Informative) (Maybe that's a reason it took as long as it did to ship as well.) Besides, like you imply, there indeed was pressure to "release it already" since it had been in development so long. Possibly enough pressure that even a killer offer from Amazon didn't really speed things along much more, if at all. You miss the point (Score:5, Insightful) I've seen this effect before. A manager in a company I worked for was angling for a position in a different business unit in the company. He wanted to show focus, leadership etc so he whitewashed the problems in the project he was directing and pushed for a premature release. He forced design choices that looked OK in the short term (from outside) and ignored the longterm consequences. He got the new job and a big write-up about how he had managed this project so well. Of course the project was flawed, but he did not have to clean up the mess anfd the product got canned a few months later. Release decisions etc should not be made by exiting managers. They shopuld be made by the new management team that has to keep things going. Re:You miss the point (Score:4, Interesting) If I knew a manager under me was looking to leave the company, I'd make sure his replacement was being trained and put in place long before the departure. How the hell can you expect any continuity in the process with people popping in and out? You can't run a fast food joint like that, let alone a major multi-billion dollar corporation. I also would like to know what this guy does that's worth that kind of money. You'd almost thing it would have to be sexual. Gross mis-management (Score:4, Interesting) Even if the manager does not jump ship, he might get killed in a plane crash etc. The cool thing for a ship-jumping manager is that he gets away clean. Even if he leaves a mess behind he can always twist it: "Now that I've left, everything has fallen apart. Look at how good I am! Hand me another million share options". Re:Who Cares?!! (Score:5, Funny) Well ... duh! (Score:5, Funny) How else would it get to our computers?

Richard Stallman's Dissenting View of Steve Jobs 1452 Garabito writes "Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation, has posted his not-so-fond memories of Steve Jobs on his personal site, saying, .' His statement has spurred reaction from the community; some even asking to the Free Software movement to find a new voice." Thank god (Score:5, Insightful) Look, I know no one likes to speak ill of the dead and all, but geez, last week's lovefest got WAY WAY WAY out of hand. Jobs was an important figure, no doubt, but the over-the-top platitudes were often more humorous and bizarre than heartfelt or touching. There were "expert" commentators on CNN calling Jobs the "most important person in the history of technology" with straight faces. People who didn't even KNOW the guy were crying like their daddy had just died. At one point I think I saw Wolf Blitzer and Anderson Cooper make a teary-eyed pledge to throw themselves on his funeral pyre. I doubt Jesus' apostles were as upset after the crucifixion as some of the supposedly objective "experts" and "journalists" I saw last week. It's not like I expected them to get into the more negative and tawdry aspects of his past with his body still warm, but I didn't expect such unabashed hero-worship and hagiography either. It was just shameful. Re:Thank god (Score:4, Insightful) Look, I know no one likes to speak ill of the dead and all, but geez, last week's lovefest got WAY WAY WAY out of hand. Amen [slashdot.org]. It's not like I expected them to get into the more negative and tawdry aspects of his past with his body still warm, but I didn't expect such unabashed hero-worship and hagiography either. It was just shameful. The media, of course, is in love with walled gardens, and are in awe of Jobs' ability to sell them. It all makes total and complete sense. Re: (Score:3) Re: (Score:3) And media basically runs on Apple, thanks to Mac bringing Photoshop, and equivalent tools for video and audio, to market. Re:Ah yes, bring on the bad moderation. (Score:5, Insightful) Why does someone have to be a shill to disagree with you? Because moderating 'flamebait' isn't a form of disagreement. Your post was good example of a civil way to disagree. Abusing one's moderation power to cover up someone's opinion on the other hand is an act of violence, which generally happens when someone has an agenda to push. Hence you get accusations of being a shill or a fanboi. drinkypoo was at worst answering an act of silencing in-kind, and even that sort of accusation seems too harsh. Re:Ah yes, bring on the bad moderation. (Score:5, Insightful) Why does someone have to be a shill to disagree with you? Disagreeing with someone is not sufficient reason for negative moderation. Flamebait means "something I know will lead only to a flamewar", but I think that this is something that both merits discussion, and which can lead to productive discussion. I jotted off my little journal entry on the subject, which was indeed dramatically more rude and to the point, before I saw this article, so for me it was simply RMS saying what I wanted said. And I post a short comment that agrees with him and explains why? That is not flamebait. Nor is it a troll. Modding it "overrated" is just a copout. I think that moderation is actually one of the worst things about Slashdot, along with underrated. Well no shit, if you're moderating it obviously you want the rating to change. Thanks. There is a clear argument against the term "shill", which is to stand up and say "I am not receiving compensation for my moderation of your comment." Granted, Slashdot does not make it possible to do this other than by posting in the story, but that also provides instant proof that this person engaged in the moderation, and gives them a chance to make their case as to why you should have been moderated in that fashion. If it is compelling, surely someone else will come along... and moderate the comment that they didn't like as overrated. However, there are zero valid reasons to moderate my above comment as Flamebait. There are lots of reasons why someone might do it anyway. One of them is that they are a true iFanboy zealot who cannot bear any criticism of the holy Jobs, his turtleneck, or the RDF. (Thank goodness Guy Kawasaki made it okay to talk about the RDF, or shiny-suited agents of Apple might be knocking at my door right now, and I haven't even clicked Preview yet. Or perhaps they're simply RMS-haters and anything that agrees with him is evil. Regardless, the only other really good reason for such moderation is if you're getting paid to do it. I try to restrict my use of the word "shill" to people who repeat the party line even when it has conclusively been proven to be false and/or irrelevant. Abusive moderation to hide a comment that diverges from the groupthink falls under aggressive maintenance of the status quo. Re:Thank god (Score:5, Interesting) I'd mod you up, had I the points. I even saw a somewhat disturbing piece on one of those Sunday shows asserting that Steve Jobs was indeed the FOUR most important people to influence technology in the past half century, since calling him the single most important person was apparently already too low a tribute. Steve was clearly very influential but to blindly say that he was "The most influential in history" is a huge reach. Just because there are certain groups of people who rely entirely on his company's products (not even a majority of those who use technology on a daily basis) that group (almost all of those in national media, it would seem) feel justified in glorifying him to no apparent end. And hey, at least RMS won't need to worry about his funeral being picketed by the Westboro folks. Re:Thank god (Score:4, Insightful) I think what we're seeing here is a dichotomy between technophiles like Slashdot users, and laypeople who use computers but don't understand how they work. To the open source technophile, being able to grab the source, fix a bug or add a feature, and compile it is a perk. To the lay person it's the same thing as telling them they have access to all the parts to build a rocket to go to the moon. They couldn't do it in a thousand years even if they tried, and so it's a nonexistent benefit to them - a non-feature. Apple's allure to regular people, and Jobs' particular influence, is that they make all this complicated technology easy to use. Yeah they severely limit the tech geek in the process, but most regular people simply don't care. To them, the alternative is barely being able to use the technology at all. That's what makes Jobs one of the most important influences on technology in the minds of most laypeople (i.e. the great majority of the population). I'm an engineer by trade and this is one of the things which confounds me about programmers ("software engineers"). One of the most basic tenets of engineering is KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid. Yet programmers, and especially the Linux culture, seem to delight in making things more complicated rather than simpler. They advocate Gentoo, and express shock and dismay that the "dumbed down" Ubuntu distro is the most popular. It's ok to revel in the bits and pieces that make technology work. But for the vast majority of people, the technology is a means to an end, not an end in itself -- a mere tool. Those bits and pieces need to be as invisible as possible so these people can use the tool to get their work done. With Jobs' passing, end users lost one of their biggest advocates for this simplicity in an industry full of tech geeks who love to tinker with the nuts and bolts. That's why the mainstream media is going ga-ga over this while tech sites like Slashdot are yawning. Re: (Score:3) Re: (Score:3) Steve may not have liked your taste in ripped music, your torrented TV series, or your third party apps, but he would defend to the death your right to run them, as long as that means you will pay an Apple tax to do so. Unless you bought an Apple TV; in that case he would have liked you to pay the apple tax on the gizmo, the apple tax on the media, as well as the media tax for "owning" a proprietary bit of content for a fixed amount of time... Re: (Score:3) However that doesn't forgive some of the shit they've pulled with iOS and which they presumably wish to extend into OS X proper. I fully expect that when OS X makes the leap to ARM that you'll suddenly find it is as closed and proprietary as iOS is. The app store will b Re:Thank god (Score:5, Insightful) I think you're missing the point. RMS is about free software and has defined the fundamental software liberties [gnu.org] already. Software made by Apple and that kept in its walled garden does not match those liberties. The values pushed by Apple don't even come close. Let's not delude ourselves. As far as software is concerned, with some notable exceptions, Apple always took the hard proprietary line in order to protect and add value to their hardware. It's natural for RMS to point it out. Especially at this moment in time, in a controversial manner, because well, that's what he does. And hell, if anybody is to talk dirt about Jobs, let it be RMS, a man every bit as influential, who has fundamentally changed things and who has his place reserved in history books as well. Re:Thank god (Score:5, Insightful) It is appropriate for RMS to point out the privacy/openness issues, but he really, really doesn't need to be so harsh to do it. Read his words - he implies that anyone using any Apple product is a "fool" who has willingly stepped into a "jail." (Those are his specific word choices.) He has good points, but by being so polarizing, he is only pushing people further away from his own position. Rather than a few sentence rant, his time would have been better served by putting together a few thoughtful paragraphs that acknowledge the positive impacts from Steve Jobs (ie, his emphasis on usability) while pointing out the downsides (ie, software freedom, etc.). A post like that might even cause others to think, rather than encouraging them to dismiss RMS as a crazy lunatic. This is the sort of thing (Score:4, Insightful) Re: (Score:3) Really? Which one of the TV channels is "The Not Stupid" channel? Because I never found it. Even the "science" and "documentary" themed channels like History and Discovery spend plenty of time on blowing shit up, credulous UFO shows and ghost hunters, not to mention "the science of Jesus" kind of bullshit. No kidding (Score:5, Insightful) It got a bit pathetic with people running around talking about how Steve Jobs invented the mouse, the personal computer, the smartphone, the media player, the tablet, and practically sliced bread. The guy was an excellent product designer with a good eye for where the market was going to go next. He was no more instrumental in shaping 21st century society than any other fashion designer. And yay, he was yet another ruthless capitalist, yawn! Re:Steve Jobs invented the (round) mouse (Score:3) I saw a report like that too, and was about to get angry until they showed the patent for that idiotic round mouse (ie: directionless pointing device) that came out with the iMac G3's about 11~12 years ago. Some cub reporter comes across a Steve Jobs patent for a mouse, and assumes he invented the entire industry. Never mind that it was the single biggest FAIL in the history of pointing devices. I (mostly) like Apple products, and am thankful for Jobs's contribution to the industry. But I also empathize with Re:No kidding (Score:5, Insightful) Re: (Score:3) No, I don't expect the messes to stop glorifying Jobs for stuff he didn't do and didn't even claim to do, mainly because there are still people to this day who insist on villifying Gore for claiming what he never claimed to have done. Re:No kidding (Score:5, Informative) there are still people walking around who believe we have Al Gore to thank for the Internet It's only right wing rubes that believe Al Gore said he invented the internet. I won 5 EUROs from one such idiot a while ago. YouTube is a wonderful resource for being able to go back and see what people actually said. Al Gore was however responsible for allocating the government money which was used to create the widely accessible internet from earlier government networks such as ARPANET. That's a fact. Whether you want to be thankful for it is up to you. **."*** [wikipedia.org] Re:Thank god (Score:5, Informative) Dude ... the contemporary news media is entirely shameful. They will do this to any story that gets eyeballs. They will wring it for every last drop of blood, then jump on it to see if it produces any more and even when it's clearly dead, they will continue to twist and shimmy the fucker until there's nothing left. Do yourself and cut the cable. There's plenty of other ways to get your news. Or at the very least, keep it off for awhile. After awhile, you'll be surprised to find out that you won't miss it. Re:Thank god (Score:5, Insightful) There's plenty of other ways to get your news. Exactly. Get your news like this great story, Apple User Acting Like His Dad Just Died [theonion.com] from The Onion, America's Finest News Source. What's the difference between The Onion and mainstream media? Everyone at The Onion knows their product is 100% fictional. Re:Thank god (Score:5, Insightful) It's got nothing to do with anything except that the news media loves sensationalism. To that end, they'd like to turn every death into a tragedy. It's not about hero-worship of Jobs. It's about the news echo-chamber, loving to hear themselves talk. Re:Thank god (Score:5, Interesting) Now if Justin Bieber gets run over by a concrete mixer, you bet your ass you the media will get "WAY WAY WAY" out of hand. The nice thing about the media is that it is opt in. You don't have to watch/read crap. * sure the is a lot of buzz on tech based web sites etc, but that is hardly mainstream. We idolize the dead. (Score:5, Insightful) I made a joke on Facebook when Steve Jobs died. Something about how God was mad at him because iPhone 4S was just a minor upgrade to iPhone 4, rather than the long-awaited iPhone 5, etc etc. Some of the flames I got were seriously crazy; one girl compared Steve Jobs dying to *her two miscarriages*. I couldn't believe it. I'm sorry Steve Jobs is dead. Really. He was a human being, and he had hopes, dreams, feelings and ambitions just like the rest of us. But to put Steve Jobs in the same league as people like Alan Turing, or Ada Lovelace, or Charles Babbage seems... very wrong. He was imperfect in life, like all of us, and remains imperfect in death. He was just a man. 150,000 other people I hadn't met died that day too, but nobody gave a shit about them. 150,000 people I've never met died today too. If I broke down crying and sobbing for each and every one of them, I'd be a wreck. We as a society idolize the dead. I don't believe in extolling the virtues of the recently deceased. Given a long enough time the life expectancy of all Humans drops to 0; we all die some time, and when my time comes I would much, much rather people tell the truth about me and maybe even have a bit of a laugh, even at my expense. It's not like I'm going to care, I'll be dead. I find it completely disrespectful that people think the best way to remember and "respect" someone who's recently died is to gloss over their flaws and essentially tell lies about how grand they were. When I die I just want people to remember the truth about me, whatever that was, not some kind of warped 1984-ish false memory of a person who never was. Re:You are hero worshiping too (Score:4, Insightful) Re:Thank god (Score:4, Funny) >> I doubt Jesus' apostles were as upset after the crucifixion That's because they only had to wait three days for iTombs to update. Re:Thank god (Score:5, Informative) Stallman should remember that he isn't just any random character fighting for software freedom. He's the self-appointed publicity figure for open source movement, Stallman is the self-appointed publicity figure for the Free Software Foundation. "Open Source" is not a label preferred by the FSF, because it de-emphasises freedom. I sort of agree that Stallman isn't a very palatable spokesman - but on the other hand, the FSF has an uncompromising message, and requires an uncompromising figurehead. Re:Thank god (Score:5, Interesting) Stallman should remember that he isn't just any random character fighting for software freedom. He's the self-appointed publicity figure for open source movement ... Agreed. To paraphrase Stallman, once Stallman is dead, I'll be sorry that he is dead, but glad that he is gone. The gay movement had their Stallman in the form of ACT-UP -- people doing outlandish, socially unacceptable acts for publicity (such as throwing blood on people they disagreed with). Stallman fits the same mold. Once the gay movement grew up and ACT-UP faded away, the gay movement became far more accepted. What was cause? What was effect? I don't care. ACT-UP and Stallman may have been needed at one point, but ultimately do more harm to their own cause then they realize. Just to make sure I insult everyone equally, Operation Rescue -- the anti-abortion group -- also did more harm than help to their cause with their Planned Parenthood blockades. Re:Thank god (Score:5, Insightful) I disagree. I'm glad the FSF has someone as uncompromising as Stallman. Even if his perceived extremism is bad for corporate open source software, it's better for the free software to survive in its current state as a hobbyist movement than to devolve into openwashing and flourish, which is exactly what corporations want, to turn OSS into nothing more than a nifty marketing label while they control the product with an iron fist. This is why I support the GPLv3 and am against any "pragmatist" ideas of allowing for Tivoization and patent traps so that companies will be more likely to adopt and use open source. Android is a good example of what happens to open source software when corporations get their way with it. It flourishes, but so what? Who benefits from the openness, apart from the few geeks who download the source code (for certain versions) and hack it onto a few devices? To the average customer it's as closed as iOS for all practical purposes. At the end of the day, this situation is at best, no better than the stereotypical obscure neckbeard-run FOSS project critics fear the "idealist" position would lead to in terms of openness, except that a company got rich by ripping off the open source community and contributing a little code back for the uber-geeks to tinker with. And it's a good thing there are a few tablets and phones out there with unlocked bootloaders and VMs are an option or the hobbyist wouldn't be able to do a damn thing with the Android source. If Google really wanted to tivo-lock Android, nothing's stopping them. Re:Thank god (Score:4, Insightful) Thank you for your concern. Funny thing: there are huge numbers of people like you, who are always ready to tell anyone who stands up for a cause that they are doing it wrong and would be far better off just sitting back down again and not rocking the boat. There are far fewer people like Stallman who are actually ready to do the standing up. Which do you think has a more beneficial effect on society? To put it another way: without Stallman, I would be typing this on a computer that was bound by restrictive EULAs that would prevent me from knowing how it worked or modifying it to suit my needs. He clearly knows a thing or two about software freedom. What have you accomplished that gives you the authority to claim you know better than him how to achieve his goals? (Also, I find it bizarre that you equate issuing a press release you don't like with throwing blood at people. Really, you're going with that? Wow.) Re:Thank god (Score:5, Insightful) "Open source"? Funny that you should say that. Stallman promotes "free" software, not "open source". Why's it funny, and what's the difference, I hear you ask? Well GNU/Linux (and Hurd, har har) is "free", aka viral. BDS is "open source", and that's exactly why Apple was able to bag it, build a wall around it, and make their own secret proprietary version without giving anything back to the community that built it. Re:Thank god (Score:4, Insightful) Buddhism is the only religion that can be taken seriously and isn't about judging and killing other people in the name of some imaginary person You need to take a stroll around the mall a couple more times. There are plenty of other such religions, some of them even popular. Not to knock Buddhism. Re:Thank god (Score:4) Re:Thank god (Score:5, Insightful) That seriously improves his image a lot... ...but not so much if you recall other aspects such as his denial of paternity of a daughter (with Chrisann Brennan), claiming he was sterile, then going on to father three more sprogs with someone else. Creepy. :-| Re:Thank god (Score:5, Insightful) But the issue Stallman is raising is that over many years, Jobs was about ownership and money as much as he was about anything else. He was not a leading light of the open source software movement. In fact, he and his company continue to be rather aggressively proprietary anywhere they can get away with it. They only moved to a Unix base because not to do so was fatal -- they didn't have a chance of developing a creditable non-Unix multitasking multiuser operating system to replace the long series of completely proprietary Mac OS's, at a time that even Microsoft was reading the writing on the wall (and MS had NT, for better or worse, and it took most of a decade to develop that to where it was capable of turning into e.g. XP and giving MS a consumer OS that wasn't doomed out of the gate. Basically, the OSS community saved Apple's ass every bit as much as the Ipod did -- without OSX the actual Apple "computer" was dead and everybody knows it and knew it at the time (and Apple came within a hair of ceasing to exist because of it). So what, exactly, did Apple then do for the OSS community? Move to open standards for (say) music? Move to open standards for anything at all where the standards were not already dictated by the marketplace? Become an aggressive corporate presence calling for an end to proprietary software and hardware? Hardly. Does the Ipod use a USB port to play music or charge? It does! Does it use a standard USB connector? It does not! Hence an instant, enormous aftermarket for a proprietary piece of cabling that won't work with anybody else's anything and that gains no particular benefit from the difference. Over decades -- printer cables, modem cables, mouse cable -- if it was Apple only Apple's version would fit on an Apple piece of hardware. Software no better. I personally am neither glad he's dead nor glad he's gone because either OSS can make it on its own in spite of people like Jobs and Gates and companies like Apple and Microsoft or it can't, but Jobs was in a position to do the compassionate and ethical thing at least a time or two in there and I would not say that his corporate business decisions properly reflected the general Buddhist philosophy or ethos. It was, and remains, all about the money and power and influence every bit as much as it was about the joy. rgb for those who are interested (Score:5, Interesting) Re: (Score:3) Do you drive a Ford/Champion/ACDelco ? Or a Porsche/Karmann/Bosch? As Linus stated in "Revolution OS" - if Gnu makes a distribution, they are free to call it Gnu/Linux ... [youtube.com] Start at 2:29 .... Sounds fair. (Score:5, Insightful) Horrible people can do good things just as good people can do horrible things, and a lot of the things Jobs did in computing were horrible. Pretty, and king of usability, but all a thing veneer on something fundamentally malign. Re: (Score:3, Informative) I've always loved how "it was because of the record companies". You know, that clearly was the truth, especially with how Apple refused to license their DRM to third parties which would have then allowed one to migrate their media collection to a non-Apple product. Yes, I'm certain that Apple had no interest what-so-ever in a vender lock-in, where if you moved away from their products your entire media collection, and all that money you spent would effectively have been thrown away. And Apple removed the Where's the full text? (Score:3) [stallman.org] What did I miss? Sorry to say it... (Score:5, Insightful) ... but I agree with stallman. Jobs figured out that you can make aesthetically pleasing stuff and make a lot of profit off simplifying hardware design for everyday people BUT this has a negative effect on those who actually use computers and computing devices as something beyond a toaster or glorified television. Jobs just turned computing devices into consumer items. The downside is that his companies success with walled gardens is giving a lot of other companies and developers the same idea of creating walled gardens where you never own anything, can't modify it, etc. A kind of kind of feudalistic computing. I've watched gaming go downhill over the last 10 years with the rise shit like world of warcraft showing everyone the path to walled garden land because there are enough stupid people who don't give a shit about gaming that will just take it up the ass because they aren't passionate about games. So we get things like Starcraft 2 chained to online, no LAN, we get permanent online DRM being pushed and crap like onlive. At this point I really want to burn down the software industry. I remember a time when blizzard wasn't as evil as it is today and you actually were treated like a customer rather then a magpie with a wallet. In the same way, people who work in computing, and do computing and are passionate about computing need freedom from corporate tyranny to innovate. Each generation of tinkering kids becomes the next set of developers/entrepreneurs/innovators. To lock everything behind a walled garden just creates a big mess and ensures solutions are suffocated or co-opted for someones personal greed with a net negative for humanity as a whole. All great innovations are built upon mountains of others that came before them, locking them down is just a surefire way to suffocate progress. Its time... (Score:3) for ReadWriteWeb to find a new editor, one that doesn't pander to fanboys Steve Jobs was also in part responsible for a lot of bad, remember the Foxconn worker 'suicide'? Or how about suing journalists? Or hiring security that pretended to be police? Or requiring employees submit to searches or be fired? I'm with Stallman on this. (Score:5, Insightful) Stallman is an asshole. With that out of the way, he speaks true. I abandoned everything Apple for exactly the reasons he pointed out and I hope, as Stallman does, that Apple will become less anally retentive in the future. Stallman is that guy who takes his job way to seriously. He loses touch with reality, he loses friends, his only friends are those with the same goals, but he even dismisses them for not being as committed as he is. In the end Stallman does the real work needed by the FOSS movement, he benefits the movement greatly, however he's like the overnight shift in a 24 hour production facility. Often the very best workers are on the overnight shift, not because you don't want the secrets to their efficiency accidentally leaked to someone passing through, but because the most talented people are often such eccentric weirdo's you only want the results of their work seen, not the workers themselves. That last article condemning Stallman was just completely out of tune with the man himself. He wasn't hateful towards Job's himself, Stallman has a goal in mind and he wont rest until it's accomplished. He will never accomplish it. His goal of all software being 100% open source, patent free, and free in every way will never happen, and it's one of the places I differ with him. I support someones right to make money off of software, I do agree FOSS is the way to go and I do think even closed source software should eventually become open, but I do support someone closing source for a time to make a profit, and this is where I disagree with Stallman, who I see as an Old Testament Prophet of the Open Code. Stallman tells it like it is (Score:5, Insightful) Under the shadow of iPhones (Score:5, Funny) > His statement has spurred reaction from the community; some even asking to the Free Software movement to find a new voice. I agree with them. Furthermore, I propose that anyone making fun of Steve Jobs in a cartoon should be stoned with bricked iPhones. Don't let the Infidels smear the name of The Prophet. Inch' Apple. Why do FOSS spokespeople lack common sense? (Score:3) What is it about FOSS that inspires such blind arrogance that they shoot themselves in the foot? Stallman is hurting his cause, just as a Mozilla employee recently hurt their cause -- by feeling and expressing contempt for those who don't share their vision, and by lacking respect, decency, maturity, and basic business sense. Unfortunately it raises doubts about the competency of some FOSS organizations. If they don't have the understanding to respect other points of view, or the sense to do simple things in their own self-interest, who can rely on them? I strongly support FOSS. It depresses me that so many leaders needlessly damage the cause. Fair and Balanced (Score:5, Insightful) Richard Stallman is unfortunate (Score:4, Insightful) Richard Stallman is unfortunate. Being correct but not politically correct is a tough equation. Reality Check, RMS (Score:3, Insightful) Re: (Score:3) Don't look now, but your Apple is showing. Here's a reality check for you, if you care to open the "scary terminal" in your copy of Lion.... Look at what's buried below that clean, unblemished UI.... BSD. Free Software. Stuff that "has a ways to go" before it reaches Apple's level of "absorption". No one... (Score:3) ... is wholly good or wholly evil. Can we leave it at that? Better of? Maybe? We shall see. (Score:5, Insightful) Comment by S. LeBeau Kpadenou (Score:5, Insightful) Stallman is the anti-Jobs in many ways. But they"re both brilliant, driven, uncompromising geniuses. And to say that Stallman hasn't had as much impact on the world as Jobs is wrong on it's face, in my opinion. I reckon more devices have Linux installed than any Apple OS. How many startups would have been crushed by server OS costs without GNU/Linux as an option, even just by driving down the price of competitors? How many pieces of software that started as hobby hacking wouldn't exist with a free C compiler? App store? Linux had this years before the iPhone? Safari's engine started in KDE. Mac interface descended from X. Super-computing, internet plumbing, all dominated by Linux and GNU for a reason. Then there's Android. If you don't like him, Stallman gives you plenty of ammunition. The same could be said about Jobs (personal emails to disgruntled users?) He spoke his mind, and a lot of people may not like what he said. In his mind, the world of software is a secret war for the freedom of billions of people. He believes proprietary software is a precursor to real live Soviet style oppression. He thinks Jobs is/was creating the world that appeared in the iconic 1984 Mac commercial. And if he believes that, blunting his words would be a disservice to history and posterity. Steve Jobs was one to the most powerful on the planet. He's gonna have enemies. He knew that and didn't much care. I doubt his family is surfing Stallman's website looking for an epitaph. As for the spokesman thing, I don't see RMS as that. He's the visionary. He's supposed to be unbending, uncompromising, theory based. He's not supposed to sugercoat. He's a coder, not a CEO. Mr. Bill (Score:3) Interesting choice of words. I'm not sure if "Mr. Bill" is a reference to Bill Gates or Mr. Bill from Saturday Night Live [mrbill.com]. Because I actually think SNL's Mr. Bill does deserve to die. Have you seen what they do to that guy? Every episode they're either running him over or chopping off some body part... they should just let him rest in peace. And in pieces, in his case. Of course, now this makes me wonder if SNL's Mr. Bill started out as someone's sick commentary on Mr. Gates. Perhaps the creator's computer blue-screened when Office tried to load Clippy, and he started composing these skits while he waited for the reboot. "It looks like you're trying to write a letter. What you do is-- OH NOOO... I got a paper cut and it severed my arm! Oh NOOOOO...." Amazing (Score:4, Insightful) Jobs wasn't a great innovator in technology, but he was a pretty great salesman and marketer. One of his greatest marketing campaigns was convincing people that he was some sort of fantastic technological innovator. His second great achievement was having a pretty plastic shell designed for a bucket of computer innards and then charging double over the nearest competing product, and actually making sales. Third, he recognized the power of good design in both the interface and the a fore mentioned pretty plastic shell. While I've listed this third, it is probably his greatest, longest lasting, and closest to technical innovation. Apple, as a company, really gets design. It shows in every single one of their products, and often times has won out over functionality. I wish more companies got design at the same fundamental level, but integrated it better with function. Fourth, Steve Jobs managed to get a whole generation to believe that they were thinking differently by purchasing the same computer. Says one zealous Dick about another one (Score:3) RMS talks about greed and freedom. But this is the man who insists on renaming somebody else's operating system, Linux, to GNU/Linux because they used his free shit to make it. So what is it Dick, is your shit not really free? Linux owns the trademark for Linux, the and GNU is owned by your cronies. Does that mean that if I come up with my own kernel, lets call it Assfuck, using your GNU shit, calling it GNU/Assfuck is appropriate? Job was a visionary, zealot, and a control freak who demanded things his way. That made him a dick. But RMS is also a visionary, zealot, control freak who demands things his way as well; that makes him just as big a dick as Jobs. The emperor has no clothes (Score:3) Re:Stallman and FOSS (Score:5, Insightful) Meh. Stalman only cares about "sustainable" freedom. Apple, and Jobs, were NO champions of that cause. We all know the very good things about Apple, but Stalman keeps in mind the BAD things, such as extreme vendor lock-in, anti-privacy instances, market lock-in (closed app-store, anyone), extreme censorship against FLOSS, hostile behavior towards other companies and hostile behavior towards competing products... We are already screwed if people take Stalman as the corporate image of Linux. But that doesn't mean the guy is wrong. Re:Stallman and FOSS (Score:4, Informative) extreme censorship against FLOSS Err... doesn't OSX contain fairly substantial amounts of FLOSS, and isn't Apple known as a reasonably responsible licensee and even contributor for most projects they use? I recall a few instances where they were accused of a license violation, but they seem to respond to most of these accusations by correcting whatever they've done wrong. Granted, not always instantly, but they do fix it. Re: (Score:3) > Err... doesn't OSX contain fairly substantial amounts of FLOSS, If Apple were about nothing but MacOS, then you would have a point. However, MacOS is now the minority part of Apple's business. The problem that people have with RMS is that he points out all of the things that people would like to ingore for the sake of expediency. People don't like being exposed as foolish. People don't appreciate enlightenment. People can't handle being confronted with the things they try to hide from themselves. Those tha Re:Stallman and FOSS (Score:4, Insightful) I'm not exactly fan of Apple, but Richard Stallman has no merits to basically say he's glad Steve Jobs is dead. There is no merit (see what I did there? In case you didn't, I used the word correctly) to the assertion that someone who has said they are not glad someone is dead is glad that they are dead. I am not glad that Jobs died either, but I am glad he won't be at the helm of Apple Computer, Inc. Re:Stallman and FOSS (Score:5, Insightful) Shockingly enough, he isn't a big fan of the man who built what is perhaps the most powerful walled-garden presently in operation... I don't understand why that is a surprise... Re:Stallman and FOSS (Score:5, Insightful) I've never been able to understand why these periodic "Stallman says something many people don't like" stories always involve so much strawmanning and apparent confusion. I see that as beyond obvious, if not necessarily simple: Stallman is the head of a "dangerous" (read: influential) movement which confronts people's sensibilities and challenges the status quo. A lot of people have significant personal and economic investments which are threatened by the movement that Stallman represents, and as its figurehead he must be discredited or his words must be considered and both financial empires and carefully crafted illusions designed to permit ongoing behavior harmful to society and self will disintegrate. Shockingly enough, he isn't a big fan of the man who built what is perhaps the most powerful walled-garden presently in operation... I don't understand why that is a surprise... Yeah, it's almost like he's interested in Software Freedom or something. Re:Stallman and FOSS (Score:5, Insightful) Richard Stallman has no merits to basically say he's glad Steve Jobs is dead. He didn't say that. He said, 'I'm not glad he's dead, but I'm glad he's gone.' Linux geeks ... are happy to see people die. He did not say that. He said, 'I'm not glad he's dead, but I'm glad he's gone.' apart from the a few geeks, people in the real world really don't care about his views or what he is trying to promote. Maybe you don't know what web site this is. Ubuntu has tried to fix that with Linux, but it's still far from Mac OSX or even Windows. ... I'm not exactly fan of Apple Again, I think you're not on the right web site, and you probably really are an Apple fan. Re: (Score:3, Insightful) You tell a kid whose parent died that you're not glad the parent is dead, but you're glad they're gone. See how well that works for you. Re: (Score:3, Insightful) The funny thing is, though, that Steve Jobs is not a parent to anyone here. He is a complete stranger, but has been elevated to such a messiah like stature that people that didn't even know him outside of his press releases literally went out of their way to buy fucking flowers and leave them at the Apple Store. I think the lack of perspective most of these mourners display is the most discouraging thing. I read a few "Man, that sucks" comments and didn't have a problem, but when people call him the most i Re: (Score:3) Re:Stallman and FOSS (Score:4, Interesting) Indeed. Steve Jobs used to make blue boxes to steal from the phone company. Not 'steal' in quotes, actual theft of service. Using actual long distance lines without paying for them. A lot of people did it for fun, which is somewhat reasonable, I guess. It's one thing to hack on the phone system for fun. I can shrug at that. But Jobs actually manufactured blue boxes and sold them to others, people less interested in 'phone hacking' and more interested in 'free long distance calls'. Well, Woz built them and Jobs packaged and sold them. That was his first 'user interface', making blue boxes usable and affordable for random non-hacker people. Probably with nice curved corners and a shuffle version that didn't allow you to pick the number to dial. ;) I.e., he was the equivalent of a hacker selling script kiddie tools. And, years later, Steve Jobs also sold fucking phones that people couldn't install whatever software they wanted on them. Not even something illegal, not something harmful, just people who wanted to play ScummVM games or whatever on their phone. I don't know exactly what happened in the years between those two Steve Jobs, but I'd also be glad he was gone from Apple if I suspected he was the cause of the walled garden in iPhones. (However, I have actually no evidence this is the case, and I'm not sure why RMS thinks it is. And he was pretty much 'gone from Apple' already from what I understand.) Re:Stallman and FOSS (Score:4, Funny) Ok. So now fanboys are Steve's illegitmate children. That's a great rhetorical corner you've painted yourself into there. Re: (Score:3, Interesting) Is a walled garden better than a wide open desert? I think Stallman doesn't realize not everyone is a camel herder. Re: (Score:3) So basically, less is more and freedom is slavery. Jobs changed after his return to Apple, it became less about enabling people and more about his vision and only his vision. Enable people as long as it's within Apple's rules, and when the rules change, you better agree with Apple. Re: (Score:3) It's almost as crazy as suggesting that constitutional democracies were more free than unlimited dictatorships. Re:Stallman and FOSS (Score:4, Insightful) it's freedom vs power (Score:3). Re:Stallman and FOSS (Score:4, Insightful) Stallman does, and always has, define freedom as that which most benefits him. He is or was a programmer and he demands the freedom to program and modify the software and devices he uses. Which is great for him. But how can the freedom to choose not include the freedom for people to choose an Apple style 'walled garden'? I am absolutely certain that Stallman doesn't know what I want better than I do. Further, if you don't buy any Apple products, how can you be effected by Apple? Apart from your not being able to buy a tablet that apes an ipad in countries that don't allow products to ape one another. Also other than getting angry enough to click reply on every Apple/Jobs story. Re:Stallman and FOSS (Score:5, Insightful) But how can the freedom to choose not include the freedom for people to choose an Apple style 'walled garden'? Some "freedoms" which involve the sacrifice of a particular freedom are not permitted. For example, you are not allowed to sell yourself into slavery. Whether you think that walled gardens are heinous enough to merit such disapproval or not is a personal thing. Many persons considered slavery to be quite acceptable - for others. Further, if you don't buy any Apple products, how can you be effected by Apple? In much the same way as properly paid workers are affected by a slave labor force. Some occupations are thus priced out of the market, as they can't compete with subsistence-level workers (there would be openings in other occupations, such as slave driver). Becoming locked into a walled garden is generally a one-way trip, so the walled garden tends to expand to the detriment of the open market. You appear to think that this is harmless; it is not, largely due to the degree of control and squelching of competition that occurs in Apple's walled garden. Re:Stallman and FOSS (Score:4, Funny) What you call a walled-garden is just a trading platform. Apple as a provider of that trading platform, controls what can be traded, but not what you in fact trade. This is no difference to drug laws or other laws that prevent "free trade" of certain goods. Re:Stallman and FOSS (Score:4, Insightful) The big difference is that Apple is a private entity and is controlling what can and can't be sold via a store that they own. They do not control what you can buy in other stores, as would a government. If you dislike what is available in Apple's store or you have some philosophical disagreement with the way they do things, you are free to buy some other device. Re:Stallman and FOSS (Score:4, Insightful) I wish people didn't eat at McDonald's, or drink Starbucks coffee, but I prefer to live in a world where choices that seem suboptimal to me are possible for other people to make. Mainly because I know the choice police would eventually get around to taking away something I like. Re: (Score:3, Insightful) Becoming locked into a walled garden is generally a one-way trip, so the walled garden tends to expand to the detriment of the open market. No, I have an Apple phone and an Apple laptop, my servers run BSD. I have a DVR that runs Linux. The day a non-Apple phone or laptop, or non BSD server OS, or non-Linux running DVR, becomes available that suits my needs better than what I have, I'll use them instead. Tell me specifically how the degree of control and squelching of competition specific to Apple's walled garden affects things outside the walled garden. Tell me about something with enough scale to justify you being able to deny my freedom to ch Re:Stallman and FOSS (Score:4, Insightful) But how can the freedom to choose not include the freedom for people to choose an Apple style 'walled garden'? I am absolutely certain that Stallman doesn't know what I want better than I do. I don't believe Stallman would dispute your freedom to make that choice. He would just regret that you have done so. He would also contend that most people sleepwalk into that choice without knowing the ins and outs of the factors. Re: (Score:3) Re:Stallman and FOSS (Score:5, Insightful) 1. Attempt to view porn on iPhone app Two methods: 1a. open mobile browser 1b. surf to pr0n page --or-- 1a. import favorite pr0n flicks into iTunes via one of dozens of video codec convertors 1b. view pr0n movie on iPhone This isn't exactly rocket science, and amazingly, aside from the "import to iTunes" step, is exactly like any other phone on the planet. Or are you just mad that you can't buy T&A in their store? (...who the hell actually pays for the stuff these days anyway?) -sent from my crappy Blackberry curve. Re: (Score:3) The more proper question is, "Why do people think this shit is unacceptable?" Hey, it's my phone. If I choose to look at gun porn, I'll do so. If I choose to look at motorhead porn, I'll do that too. Geek porn? Got it covered. Phatbroad porn? Well - I'll take a pass on that, but it seems some guys like phat chicks. Just leave them alone, alright? Re:Stallman and FOSS (Score:4, Insightful) The one trolling was Stallman. He was, , ""I'm not glad he's dead, but I'm glad he's gone." [stallman.org] So, a massive cerebral hemorrhage, a bullet to the head that left him a vegetable, a mental degenerate disease, or even something that just left him physically too debilitated to continue to do his, job, would have been fine with Stallman. Read the entirety of what he wrote, and you'll see that there's no other interpretation. Stallman is no longer relevant, and his latest whining just underlines that. Stallman wrote that with the brain turned off (Score:5, Informative). That was a incredibly poorly thought remark. The FOSS movement is a political movement as much as a technological movement. In politics, what you say and how you say it matters. FOSS already have the drawback that is composed mostly from nerds lacking social skills, to have the most visible mouthpiece of the movement expressing himself so poorly is another unnecessary obstacle. He could have said: "Despite his death and economical success, I still believe that the vision of Steve Jobs in computing is a menace to fundamental freedoms now an in the future. I have sympathy for his family in this moments of loss, but I can't ignore the dangerous effects of his work." Instead, what he wrote is more akin a what a teen would post to twitter after doing a tantrum. It is simply too low for the man that wrote the GPL and "The right to read". Jobs was a freedom Trojan Horse (Score:4, Informative) FWIW, I own a MacBook Air and an iPhone 3GS. People who view Apple as an enabler of freedom are those who think the same thing of their EZpass for road tolls. Someday, they will see their "internal passport" as an enabler of travel. The fact is, that the "1984" campaign was a propaganda ruse. Jobs and Hertzfeld and crew were already working with DARPA and the spooks. Read all of the following - including the links - and understand that it is no exaggeration to understand that with the introduction of "Siri", George Orwell's "Telescreen" is on the verge of reality - in your pocket. [cryptogon.com] [venturebeat.com] Re:Stallman: Hypocrite (Score:4, Insightful) Re:More to communicatio than being right (Score:5, Insightful) Not only is there wisdom in knowing precisely what to say, there is also wisdom in knowing when not to say it. The time to make the statement is while it is relevant. You wait until the initial storm dies down, and then you start your own. And it is critical that we receive this message — not you and I, maybe, but as many of the wide-eyed legions of Apple as can be reached. Because what Apple represents is precisely the same thing that Microsoft or Sony represents: a dearth of choice. Stallman might be an egotistical ass, but he is certainly the foremost champion of the rights of the user. Some programmers don't like that, so they don't like the GPL, and they don't like Free Software. They call it a virus and they would prefer to stamp it out rather than have to deal with something so confusing. Other people can make the same point in a month, and a year, and reach other audiences, but this point needs to be made now and it needs to be made well. Stallman has done both. Re: (Score:3) Re:Dear Mr Stallman (Score:5, Interesting) You don't have to have liked him, but you could have at least shown some respect rather than making the GNU (And by association, Linux, even though we hate you) community look like tools, instead of just yourself as you usually do. Except that RMS is absolutely 100% spot on correct in his assessment. Some people (like you) just don't want to hear it. Nothing new here, really. For the record I am an ex Apple fanboy from roughly the Apple IIe days through OS8 when I finally gave up and moved to Linux on account of it being friendlier to software development. Re:Dear Mr Stallman (Score:5, Insightful) With which, other than the last, do you have a problem? And with the last point, do you honestly disagree? Or do you just think that people shouldn't speak honestly about the faults of a man after his death? Stallman who made Linux possible (Score:5, Informative) "Stallman who?" Stallman who made Linux possible. No I won't call it FNU/Linux or whatever. Stallman who made Steve Jobs mac OS possible... Without the GPL license, and applied in a dual license, a lot of the MacOS show-offs wouldn't have been there... Have you ever hurd of Safari, just to mention one. Still, Stallman has made is an enormous impact on planet Earth, quite possibly much larger than that of Jobs. Stallman is just the unhurd of version of Jobs, and w/o turtle-neck. The GPL (which has Linux as a subset) made it for a hurd of other free software licenses as well. Stallman's contributions stand on their own, whether or not correct and/or not politically correct. Re:Stallman who made Linux possible (Score:5, Insightful) What planet are you from? Stallman didn't make Linux possible, BSD did. Are you suggesting no other compilers or debuggers existed? Stallman didn't make MacOS possible. Again, BSD did. Safari doesn't use any of Stallman's code, and if LGPL didn't exist (a license Stallman wasn't a fan of), another would have been used. Stallman's contributions are gdb, hot air, and beard grease and the only reason gcc/gdb became popular is the same reason UNIX became popular: it was available. Apple doesn't even use gcc anymore and its days may be numbered. Steve Jobs wanted to make a computer for everyone, Stallman couldn't give a damn how difficult they are to use so long they use his license. HURD:0 Apple:Billions The only reason you've been modded up is because of FSF zealots who have nothing better to do than troll slashdot. If people rated your post on the facts you would get a -5 flaimbait Re:Stallman is out of line (Score:5, Insightful) Stallman's worst defect (other than his nonconformist appearance and manner -- which are both fine by me, but not great qualities in a spokesman) is his faith in the general intelligence of the world at large. He leaves things unsaid, because he assumes that the audience is paying proper attention, and reading between the lines. Case in point: Stallman's ideal vision of a world where every user is a programmer that reprograms their devices at will isn't happening for too many reasons to list You don't need to be a programmer to program a computer. My boss isn't a programmer, yet he can program a computer simply by paying me money and telling me what to do. My mum isn't a programmer, but she can program a computer by asking me a favour. Stallman assumes people realise that. Re: (Score:3) Steve Jobs isn't generally well liked, perhaps people like Bill Gates like him, but that's because they actually met. Most people, just know him from the product announcements and ass kissing articles in various papers. RMS is getting flack for it, but somebody really needs to point out at this time that he did a lot of underhanded things as well that undermined the ability of people to use their hardware as they see fit. I'm not sure who else has done as much to promote the walled garden model to the masses Re: (Score:3) If RMS and the FSF protested at Jobs' funeral... ... *that* would be like Fred Phelps and the scum from the Westboro Baptist Church protesting at Jobs' funeral. Re:Great no-hype article on techdirt about Jobs (Score:4, Informative) Re:Great no-hype article on techdirt about Jobs (Score:5, Insightful) Sorry but patenting rounded corners, then suing suing Samsung is certainly a scam. And Apple has been doing that sort of thing for decades.

2011 Dallas Mavericks! #661 Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:16 AM 8:00 PM CT - EnergySolutions Arena, Salt Lake City,UT. FINAL DAL-18-24-20-27+16+6+10=121 UTA-22-21-28-18+16+6+12=123 Jazz outlast Nowitzki, Mavericks 123-121 in 3 OT. By LYNN DeBRUIN. SALT." #662 Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:18 AM: "It was a fun game to be a part of. Both teams left it all out there and competed at a high level. Big plays and big shots on both ends of the floor. The crowd was into it so you couldn't ask for a better game. We had our chances. If we get that. ..Mavericks-Jazz #663 Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:19 AM ...............pos min fgm-a 3pm-a ftm-a +/- off def tot ast pf st to bs ba=pts S. Marion F 23:51 2-5 0-1 0-0 -6 0 2 2 1 1 1 1 0 0 4 D. Nowitzki F 52:57 13-26 2-7 12-12 +8 1 8 9 6 4 0 3 0 1 40 B. Haywood C 20:47 0-3 0-0 0-0 -9 0 2 2 1 3 1 1 1 0 0 D. West G 26:51 5-8 2-2 4-4 -3 0 1 1 0 4 1 1 1 1 16 J. Kidd G 45:20 3-8 3-8 1-2 -1 1 4 5 6 4 4 2 0 0 10 J. Terry 53:49 11-25 4-9 1-1 0 0 2 2 3 3 2 3 0 1 27 V. Carter 44:36 5-15 3-7 5-6 -3 1 11 12 4 5 2 1 1 1 18 I. Mahinmi 35:42 3-6 0-0 0-0 +2 2 3 5 0 5 2 1 0 1 6 Y. Jianlian 04:36 0-1 0-0 0-0 -3 2 0 2 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 B. Wright 06:12 0-1 0-0 0-0 +4 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 2 0 0 B. Cardinal 00:19 0-0 0-0 0-0 +1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 K. Azubuike..DNP - Coach's Decision D. Jones.......DNP - Coach's Decision Totals...........315 42-98 14-34 23-25 7 34 41 21 31 13 15 5 5=121 ............................42.9% 41.2% 92.0% team rebs: 10 total to: 15 Utah Jazz (32-30)..field goals...rebounds. ...............pos min fgm-a 3pm-a ftm-a +/- off def tot ast pf st to bs ba=pts D. Carroll F 44:34 5-10 1-2 4-4 0 2 2 4 6 5 1 2 0 2 15 P. Millsap F 53:01 5-18 0-1 6-8 -5 4 5 9 6 5 1 4 1 1 16 A. Jefferson C 54:04 14-25 0-0 0-0 +9 5 21 26 1 4 1 1 2 2 28 G. Hayward F 54:02 6-14 4-6 8-10 +5 1 3 4 5 2 1 3 1 0 24 D. Harris G 52:52 8-17 5-12 2-5 -3 0 1 1 7 3 0 3 0 0 23 A. Burks 12:24 0-6 0-3 4-4 +9 1 1 2 0 2 0 0 0 0 4 D. Favors 13:22 0-0 0-0 2-2 +3 1 2 3 1 5 2 2 0 0 2 J. Tinsley 17:54 1-2 1-2 2-2 -10 0 2 2 4 0 0 3 1 0 5 E. Kanter 07:49 1-1 0-0 1-2 -1 0 2 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 3 B. Ahearn 04:58 1-2 1-2 0-0 +3 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 3 R. Bell.......DND - Left knee recovery J. Evans....DNP - Coach's Decision J. Howard.DND - Left knee surgery Totals.......315 41-95 12-28 29-37 14 39 53 30 28 6 19 5 5=123 ........................43.2% 42.9% 78.4% team rebs: 16 total to: 21 inactive Mavericks: Beaubois, Odom Jazz: Miles, Watson technical fouls Mavericks: Nowitzki, Terry, West Jazz: -- scoring Lead Changes: 8 Times Tied: 11 arena stats Arena: EnergySolutions Arena, Salt Lake City,UT Officials: #49 Tom Washington, #45 Brian Forte, #35 Kane Fitzgerald Attendance: 19363 Duration: 3:16. #664 Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:24 AM Dallas Mavericks (34-28) Utah Jazz (32-30) Start of 1st Quarter (12:00) Jump Ball Jefferson vs Haywood (Millsap gains possession) 11:36 Jefferson Turnaround Jump Shot: Missed Team Rebound 11:35 West Jump Shot: Missed Block: Hayward (1 BLK) 11:13 11:11 Jefferson Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 11:08 [UTA 2-0] Harris Driving Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS) Haywood Jump Hook Shot: Missed 10:50 10:48 Jefferson Rebound (Off:0 Def:2) 10:42 Harris Jump Shot: Missed Marion Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 10:40 Nowitzki Jump Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: Kidd (1 AST) 10:33 [DAL 2-2] 10:15 Carroll Jump Shot: Missed Haywood Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 10:11 Nowitzki Turnover : Traveling (1 TO) 09:59 West Foul: Personal (1 PF) 09:42 09:30 Millsap Turnover : Lost Ball (1 TO) Steal:Marion (1 ST) 09:27 Hayward Foul: Shooting (1 PF) West Free Throw 1 of 2 (1 PTS) 09:27 [DAL 3-2] West Free Throw 2 of 2 (2 PTS) 09:27 [DAL 4-2] Marion Foul: Shooting (1 PF) 09:11 09:11 [UTA 3-4] Millsap Free Throw 1 of 2 (1 PTS) 09:11 [UTA 4-4] Millsap Free Throw 2 of 2 (2 PTS) Nowitzki Fadeaway Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) 08:56 [DAL 6-4] 08:40 Harris Foul: Offensive (1 PF) 08:40 Harris Turnover : Foul (1 TO) West Foul: Offensive Charge (2 PF) 08:30 West Turnover : Foul (1 TO) 08:30 West Substitution replaced by Terry 08:30 Nowitzki Foul: Personal (1 PF) 08:12 08:04 [UTA 7-6] Harris 3pt Shot: Made (5 PTS) Assist: Jefferson (1 AST) Marion Turnover : Bad Pass (1 TO) 07:47 07:29 Millsap Jump Shot: Missed Marion Rebound (Off:0 Def:2) 07:28 Haywood Jump Hook Shot: Missed 07:15 07:13 Jefferson Rebound (Off:0 Def:3) 07:07 Carroll Turnover : Lost Ball (1 TO) Steal:Kidd (1 ST) Terry 3pt Shot: Missed 07:01 06:59 Jefferson Rebound (Off:0 Def:4) 06:47 [UTA 9-6] Jefferson Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: Millsap (1 AST) Nowitzki Jump Shot: Made (6 PTS) Assist: Haywood (1 AST) 06:26 [DAL 8-9] 06:12 Hayward 3pt Shot: Missed Terry Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 06:11 Terry Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS) 06:06 [DAL 10-9] 05:47 Millsap Jump Shot: Missed 05:47 Team Rebound 05:47 Team Timeout : Regular Nowitzki Substitution replaced by Carter 05:47 05:35 Harris 3pt Shot: Missed 05:33 Millsap Rebound (Off:1 Def:0) 05:20 Carroll 3pt Shot: Missed Carter Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 05:19 Terry Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Kidd (2 AST) 05:06 [DAL 12-9] 04:39 [UTA 12-12] Harris 3pt Shot: Made (8 PTS) Assist: Carroll (1 AST) Kidd 3pt Shot: Made (3 PTS) 04:20 [DAL 15-12] 03:57 [UTA 15-15] Hayward 3pt Shot: Made (3 PTS) Assist: Millsap (2 AST) 03:44 Millsap Foul: Shooting (1 PF) Carter Free Throw 1 of 2 (1 PTS) 03:44 [DAL 16-15] 03:44 Carroll Substitution replaced by Burks Carter Free Throw 2 of 2 Missed 03:44 03:43 Jefferson Rebound (Off:0 Def:5) 03:24 [UTA 17-16] Jefferson Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) Carter 3pt Shot: Missed 03:12 03:10 Burks Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 03:04 [UTA 20-16] Harris 3pt Shot: Made (11 PTS) Team Timeout : Regular 03:02 Marion Substitution replaced by Nowitzki 03:02 Haywood Substitution replaced by Mahinmi 03:02 Kidd 3pt Shot: Missed 02:47 02:46 Jefferson Rebound (Off:0 Def:6) Nowitzki Foul: Personal (2 PF) 02:28 Nowitzki Substitution replaced by Yi 02:28 02:19 Jefferson Turnover : Lost Ball (1 TO) Steal:Terry (1 ST) Yi Turnover : Poss Lost Ball Turnover (1 TO) 02:18 02:14 Millsap Jump Shot: Missed 02:13 Millsap Rebound (Off:2 Def:0) 02:12 Millsap Layup Shot: Missed Kidd Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 02:10 Carter Slam Dunk Shot: Made (3 PTS) 02:01 [DAL 18-20] 01:39 Millsap Turnover : Lost Ball (2 TO) Steal:Carter (1 ST) 01:30 Millsap Substitution replaced by Favors Terry Turnover : Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal:Favors (1 ST) 01:17 01:14 Harris Turnover : Bad Pass (2 TO) Steal:Kidd (2 ST) Terry Jump Shot: Missed 01:09 Yi Rebound (Off:1 Def:0) 01:08 Yi Tip Shot: Missed 01:08 Team Rebound 01:08 01:08 Harris Foul: Loose Ball (2 PF) 01:08 Harris Substitution replaced by Tinsley Terry 3pt Shot: Missed 01:02 Yi Rebound (Off:2 Def:0) 01:00 Kidd 3pt Shot: Missed 00:55.9 00:53.9 Favors Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 00:43.9 Burks 3pt Shot: Missed 00:41.9 Jefferson Rebound (Off:1 Def:6) 00:29.2 [UTA 22-18] Jefferson Jump Shot: Made (6 PTS) Assist: Tinsley (1 AST) Terry Jump Shot: Missed 00:10.9 00:08.9 Tinsley Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 00:02.9 Hayward Turnover : Lost Ball (1 TO) Steal:Kidd (3 ST) End of 1st Quarter Start of 2nd Quarter Mahinmi Dunk Shot: Missed 11:43 11:41 Kanter Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 11:31 [UTA 25-18] Ahearn 3pt Shot: Made (3 PTS) 11:19 Favors Foul: Personal (1 PF) 11:11 Burks Foul: Shooting (1 PF) Carter Free Throw 1 of 2 (4 PTS) 11:11 [DAL 19-25] Carter Free Throw 2 of 2 (5 PTS) 11:11 [DAL 20-25] 10:58 Tinsley Turnover : Bad Pass (1 TO) 10:45 Burks Foul: Personal (2 PF) Carter Jump Shot: Missed 10:37 10:36 Tinsley Rebound (Off:0 Def:2) Mahinmi Foul: Shooting (1 PF) 10:21 10:21 [UTA 26-20] Favors Free Throw 1 of 2 (1 PTS) 10:21 Burks Substitution replaced by Carroll 10:21 [UTA 27-20] Favors Free Throw 2 of 2 (2 PTS) Carter Turnover : Lost Ball (1 TO) Steal:Favors (2 ST) 10:02 10:02 Jump Ball Favors vs Carter (Carroll gains possession) Yi Substitution replaced by Nowitzki 09:52 Mahinmi Substitution replaced by Wright 09:52 09:44 Ahearn Turnover : Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal:West (1 ST) 09:42 Carroll Foul: Personal (1 PF) Wright Turnover : 3 Second Violation (1 TO) 09:29 09:16 Ahearn 3pt Shot: Missed 09:13 Favors Rebound (Off:1 Def:1) 09:00 [UTA 29-20] Kanter Slam Dunk Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: Tinsley (2 AST) Team Timeout : Regular 08:46 Carter Jump Shot: Missed 08:30 08:29 Kanter Rebound (Off:0 Def:2) 08:19 [UTA 31-20] Carroll Jump Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: Tinsley (3 AST) 07:56 Ahearn Foul: Personal (1 PF) Nowitzki Free Throw 1 of 2 (7 PTS) 07:56 [DAL 21-31] Nowitzki Free Throw 2 of 2 (8 PTS) 07:56 [DAL 22-31] 07:34 Carroll Jump Shot: Missed Nowitzki Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 07:33 Carter 3pt Shot: Made (8 PTS) Assist: Nowitzki (1 AST) 07:19 [DAL 25-31] Wright Foul: Shooting (1 PF) 07:02 07:02 Kanter Free Throw 1 of 2 Missed 07:02 Team Rebound 07:02 Ahearn Substitution replaced by Harris 07:02 [UTA 32-25] Kanter Free Throw 2 of 2 (3 PTS) 06:51 Favors Foul: Personal (2 PF) Nowitzki Free Throw 1 of 2 (9 PTS) 06:51 [DAL 26-32] 06:51 Kanter Substitution replaced by Millsap Nowitzki Free Throw 2 of 2 (10 PTS) 06:51 [DAL 27-32] 06:41 Tinsley Turnover : Lost Ball (2 TO) Steal:Carter (2 ST) West Dunk Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Carter (1 AST) 06:36 [DAL 29-32] 06:27 Team Timeout : Regular 06:09 Carroll Layup Shot: Missed Block: West (1 BLK) 06:08 Team Rebound 06:08 Team Turnover : Shot Clock Turnover Nowitzki Jump Shot: Missed 05:50 05:48 Carroll Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 05:42 Millsap Jump Shot: Missed Block: Wright (1 BLK) 05:42 Team Rebound 05:42 Favors Substitution replaced by Jefferson 05:42 Tinsley Substitution replaced by Hayward Terry Substitution replaced by Kidd 05:42 05:35 Harris 3pt Shot: Missed Wright Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 05:34 Nowitzki Reverse Layup Shot: Made (12 PTS) 05:15 [DAL 31-32] 04:50 Millsap Turnaround Jump Shot: Missed 04:48 Carroll Rebound (Off:1 Def:1) 04:48 Team Turnover : Shot Clock Turnover Nowitzki Driving Layup Shot: Missed 04:39 04:37 Millsap Rebound (Off:2 Def:1) 04:26 Jefferson Layup Shot: Missed Block: Wright (2 BLK) West Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 04:24 Kidd 3pt Shot: Missed 04:19 04:18 Hayward Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 04:05 [UTA 34-31] Jefferson Jump Shot: Made (8 PTS) Assist: Millsap (3 AST) Wright Running Jump Shot: Missed 03:44 03:42 Jefferson Rebound (Off:1 Def:7) West Foul: Personal (3 PF) 03:40 03:40 Carroll Substitution replaced by Burks West Technical 03:40 West Substitution replaced by Terry 03:40 Wright Substitution replaced by Haywood 03:40 03:40 Hayward Free Throw Technical Missed 03:40 Team Rebound Carter Foul: Shooting (1 PF) 03:31 03:31 [UTA 35-31] Hayward Free Throw 1 of 2 (4 PTS) Carter Substitution replaced by Marion 03:31 03:31 [UTA 36-31] Hayward Free Throw 2 of 2 (5 PTS) Nowitzki Jump Shot: Made (14 PTS) Assist: Kidd (3 AST) 03:17 [DAL 33-36] 02:49 [UTA 39-33] Hayward 3pt Shot: Made (8 PTS) Assist: Millsap (4 AST) 02:40 Jefferson Foul: Shooting (1 PF) 02:40 Nowitzki Free Throw 1 of 2 (15 PTS) 02:40 [DAL 34-39] Nowitzki Free Throw 2 of 2 (16 PTS) 02:40 [DAL 35-39] 02:21 Hayward Jump Shot: Missed Nowitzki Rebound (Off:0 Def:2) 02:20 02:00 Millsap Foul: Shooting (2 PF) Nowitzki Free Throw 1 of 2 (17 PTS) 02:00 [DAL 36-39] Nowitzki Free Throw 2 of 2 (18 PTS) 02:00 [DAL 37-39] Haywood Foul: Shooting (1 PF) 01:50 01:50 [UTA 40-37] Burks Free Throw 1 of 2 (1 PTS) 01:50 [UTA 41-37] Burks Free Throw 2 of 2 (2 PTS) Nowitzki 3pt Shot: Missed 01:32 01:31 Jefferson Rebound (Off:1 Def:8) 01:23 Burks Running Jump Shot: Missed Nowitzki Rebound (Off:0 Def:3) 01:22 Nowitzki Jump Shot: Made (20 PTS) Assist: Terry (1 AST) 01:06 [DAL 39-41] 00:49.8 Hayward Jump Shot: Missed 00:48.8 Burks Rebound (Off:1 Def:1) 00:48.8 Burks Tip Shot: Missed 00:47.8 Jefferson Rebound (Off:2 Def:8) Haywood Foul: Shooting (2 PF) 00:41.1 00:41.1 [UTA 42-39] Burks Free Throw 1 of 2 (3 PTS) 00:41.1 Harris Substitution replaced by Tinsley 00:41.1 [UTA 43-39] Burks Free Throw 2 of 2 (4 PTS) Haywood Foul: Offensive Charge (3 PF) 00:31.0 Haywood Turnover : Foul (1 TO) 00:31.0 Haywood Substitution replaced by Mahinmi 00:31.0 00:14.9 Jefferson Jump Shot: Missed Terry Rebound (Off:0 Def:2) 00:13.8 Terry 3pt Shot: Made (7 PTS) Assist: Nowitzki (2 AST) 00:01.8 [DAL 42-43] 00:00.6 Burks 3pt Shot: Missed 00:00.0 Team Rebound End of 2nd Quarter Start of 3rd Quarter Marion Jump Shot: Missed 11:48 11:47 Millsap Rebound (Off:2 Def:2) 11:24 Millsap Fadeaway Jump Shot: Missed Haywood Rebound (Off:0 Def:2) 11:23 Marion 3pt Shot: Missed 11:07 11:06 Jefferson Rebound (Off:2 Def:9) 10:47 Hayward Jump Shot: Missed Kidd Rebound (Off:0 Def:2) 10:46 Marion Jump Shot: Missed 10:31 10:30 Jefferson Rebound (Off:2 Def:10) 10:17 Jefferson Reverse Layup Shot: Missed Block: Haywood (1 BLK) 10:16 Jefferson Rebound (Off:3 Def:10) 10:15 [UTA 45-42] Jefferson Jump Shot: Made (10 PTS) Kidd 3pt Shot: Missed 09:57 09:56 Carroll Rebound (Off:1 Def:2) 09:50 [UTA 47-42] Harris Driving Reverse Layup Shot: Made (13 PTS) Nowitzki Turnover : Traveling (2 TO) 09:23 09:09 [UTA 49-42] Carroll Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Hayward (1 AST) Team Timeout : Regular 09:08 West Jump Shot: Made (6 PTS) 08:49 [DAL 44-49] 08:32 Harris 3pt Shot: Missed Kidd Rebound (Off:0 Def:3) 08:30 West Driving Layup Shot: Missed 08:26 08:25 Hayward Rebound (Off:0 Def:2) West Foul: Personal (4 PF) 08:21 West Substitution replaced by Terry 08:21 08:02 Hayward Turnover : Traveling (2 TO) 08:02 Hayward Foul: Personal (2 PF) Nowitzki Fadeaway Jump Shot: Made (22 PTS) 07:50 [DAL 46-49] 07:30 Harris Turnover : Bad Pass (3 TO) Steal:Haywood (1 ST) Nowitzki 3pt Shot: Missed 07:08 07:07 Team Rebound 06:57 [UTA 51-46] Jefferson Dunk Shot: Made (12 PTS) Assist: Carroll (2 AST) Haywood Layup Shot: Missed 06:35 06:33 Jefferson Rebound (Off:3 Def:11) Kidd Foul: Personal (1 PF) 06:24 06:20 [UTA 54-46] Hayward 3pt Shot: Made (11 PTS) Assist: Harris (1 AST) 05:55 Millsap Foul: Personal (3 PF) Kidd 3pt Shot: Made (6 PTS) Assist: Terry (2 AST) 05:47 [DAL 49-54] 05:26 [UTA 56-49] Jefferson Jump Shot: Made (14 PTS) Assist: Millsap (5 AST) Marion Running Jump Shot: Made (2 PTS) 05:00 [DAL 51-56] 04:36 Jefferson Jump Shot: Missed Nowitzki Rebound (Off:0 Def:4) 04:35 Terry Jump Shot: Missed 04:29 04:28 Jefferson Rebound (Off:3 Def:12) 04:16 [UTA 58-51] Millsap Layup Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Carroll (3 AST) Nowitzki Jump Shot: Made (24 PTS) 04:01 [DAL 53-58] 03:43 [UTA 60-53] Hayward Jump Shot: Made (13 PTS) Assist: Harris (2 AST) 03:20 Carroll Foul: Shooting (2 PF) Nowitzki Free Throw 1 of 2 (25 PTS) 03:20 [DAL 54-60] Marion Substitution replaced by Carter 03:20 03:20 Millsap Substitution replaced by Favors Haywood Substitution replaced by Mahinmi 03:20 Nowitzki Free Throw 2 of 2 (26 PTS) 03:20 [DAL 55-60] 03:02 [UTA 62-55] Carroll Jump Shot: Made (6 PTS) Assist: Favors (1 AST) 02:42 Favors Foul: Personal (3 PF) 02:42 Team Timeout : Regular Nowitzki Substitution replaced by Marion 02:42 Kidd 3pt Shot: Made (9 PTS) Assist: Marion (1 AST) 02:32 [DAL 58-62] Carter Foul: Shooting (2 PF) 02:07 02:07 [UTA 63-58] Carroll Free Throw 1 of 2 (7 PTS) 02:07 [UTA 64-58] Carroll Free Throw 2 of 2 (8 PTS) Terry 3pt Shot: Missed 01:52 01:50 Jefferson Rebound (Off:3 Def:13) 01:43 [UTA 66-58] Carroll Layup Shot: Made (10 PTS) Assist: Harris (3 AST) Kidd Turnover : Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal:Carroll (1 ST) 01:21 01:16 [UTA 68-58] Hayward Dunk Shot: Made (15 PTS) Assist: Carroll (4 AST) Team Timeout : Short 01:15 Kidd 3pt Shot: Missed 00:54.8 Carter Rebound (Off:1 Def:1) 00:53.9 Marion Layup Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Carter (2 AST) 00:52.1 [DAL 60-68] 00:35.2 [UTA 71-60] Carroll 3pt Shot: Made (13 PTS) Assist: Hayward (2 AST) Carter Driving Layup Shot: Made (10 PTS) 00:21.9 [DAL 62-71] Kidd Foul: Personal (2 PF) 00:05.6 00:03.0 Harris Layup Shot: Missed 00:00.1 Hayward Rebound (Off:1 Def:2) End of 3rd Quarter Start of 4th Quarter 11:34 Millsap Jump Shot: Missed Carter Rebound (Off:1 Def:2) 11:33 Carter Jump Shot: Missed 11:18 11:16 Favors Rebound (Off:1 Def:2) 11:11 Harris 3pt Shot: Missed Mahinmi Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 11:09 Terry Foul: Offensive (1 PF) 11:01 Terry Turnover : Foul (2 TO) 11:01 10:43 Tinsley 3pt Shot: Missed Carter Rebound (Off:1 Def:3) 10:41 10:29 Kanter Foul: Shooting (1 PF) West Free Throw 1 of 2 (7 PTS) 10:29 [DAL 63-71] 10:29 Harris Substitution replaced by Burks West Free Throw 2 of 2 (8 PTS) 10:29 [DAL 64-71] 10:19 Favors Turnover : Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal:Terry (2 ST) Nowitzki Jump Shot: Missed 10:12 Team Rebound 10:12 10:12 Favors Foul: Loose Ball (4 PF) Nowitzki Jump Shot: Missed 10:04 10:02 Millsap Rebound (Off:2 Def:3) 09:46 Favors Foul: Offensive (5 PF) 09:46 Favors Turnover : Foul (2 TO) 09:46 Favors Substitution replaced by Jefferson Terry 3pt Shot: Missed 09:33 Mahinmi Rebound (Off:1 Def:1) 09:31 Mahinmi Turnover : Offensive Goaltending (1 TO) 09:31 Mahinmi Foul: Personal (2 PF) 09:20 09:20 Kanter Substitution replaced by Hayward 09:09 Burks 3pt Shot: Missed 09:08 Millsap Rebound (Off:3 Def:3) Carter Foul: Personal (3 PF) 09:08 08:56 Tinsley Turnover : Lost Ball (3 TO) Steal:Mahinmi (1 ST) West Dunk Shot: Made (10 PTS) Assist: Terry (3 AST) 08:52 [DAL 66-71] Terry Foul: Shooting (2 PF) 08:28 08:28 08:28 [UTA 72-66] Tinsley Free Throw 1 of 2 (1 PTS) 08:28 [UTA 73-66] Tinsley Free Throw 2 of 2 (2 PTS) Terry Turnover : Bad Pass (3 TO) Steal:Millsap (1 ST) 08:14 08:02 [UTA 75-66] Jefferson Jump Shot: Made (16 PTS) Assist: Tinsley (4 AST) Terry Jump Shot: Missed Block: Tinsley (1 BLK) 07:43 Team Rebound 07:41 Terry Technical 07:41 07:41 [UTA 76-66] Hayward Free Throw Technical (16 PTS) Terry Jump Shot: Missed 07:38 07:37 Jefferson Rebound (Off:3 Def:14) 07:17 Burks Running Jump Shot: Missed 07:17 Jefferson Rebound (Off:4 Def:14) 07:08 Team Timeout : Regular 07:08 Burks Substitution replaced by Harris 07:01 Hayward Turnover : Bad Pass (3 TO) Terry Jump Shot: Missed 06:40 Mahinmi Rebound (Off:2 Def:1) 06:39 Mahinmi Putback Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS) 06:39 [DAL 68-76] 06:19 Hayward Jump Shot: Missed Nowitzki Rebound (Off:0 Def:5) 06:17 Nowitzki Layup Shot: Made (28 PTS) 06:01 [DAL 70-76] 05:41 [UTA 79-70] Tinsley 3pt Shot: Made (5 PTS) Team Timeout : Regular 05:38 West Substitution replaced by Kidd 05:38 Nowitzki Fadeaway Jump Shot: Made (30 PTS) 05:22 [DAL 72-79] 05:03 [UTA 81-72] Jefferson Jump Shot: Made (18 PTS) Assist: Millsap (6 AST) Nowitzki 3pt Shot: Made (33 PTS) Assist: Kidd (4 AST) 04:49 [DAL 75-81] 04:27 [UTA 83-75] Millsap Jump Shot: Made (6 PTS) Assist: Harris (4 AST) Carter Jump Shot: Missed 04:04 04:02 Jefferson Rebound (Off:4 Def:15) 03:52 Jefferson Jump Shot: Missed Carter Rebound (Off:1 Def:4) 03:50 Terry 3pt Shot: Made (10 PTS) 03:41 [DAL 78-83] 03:21 Millsap Fadeaway Jump Shot: Missed Nowitzki Rebound (Off:0 Def:6) 03:20 Carter 3pt Shot: Missed 03:03 03:02 Jefferson Rebound (Off:4 Def:16) Terry Violation:Kicked Ball 02:45 02:45 Tinsley Substitution replaced by Carroll 02:35 Hayward 3pt Shot: Missed Nowitzki Rebound (Off:0 Def:7) 02:33 02:28 Jefferson Foul: Shooting (2 PF) Carter Free Throw 1 of 2 (11 PTS) 02:28 [DAL 79-83] Carter Free Throw 2 of 2 (12 PTS) 02:28 [DAL 80-83] Carter Foul: Shooting (4 PF) 02:10 02:10 [UTA 84-80] Carroll Free Throw 1 of 2 (14 PTS) 02:10 [UTA 85-80] Carroll Free Throw 2 of 2 (15 PTS) Carter 3pt Shot: Missed 01:55 Kidd Rebound (Off:1 Def:3) 01:54 Carter Reverse Layup Shot: Missed Block: Millsap (1 BLK) 01:48 01:48 Team Rebound 01:48 Jump Ball Hayward vs Mahinmi (Jefferson gains possession) 01:28 Millsap Turnover : Bad Pass (3 TO) Steal:Kidd (4 ST) Terry 3pt Shot: Made (13 PTS) Assist: Kidd (5 AST) 01:08 [DAL 83-85] 00:48.9 Millsap Jump Shot: Missed Kidd Rebound (Off:1 Def:4) 00:47.9 Kidd Turnover : Bad Pass (2 TO) Steal:Hayward (1 ST) 00:46.9 Kidd Foul: Personal (3 PF) 00:45.1 00:45.1 [UTA 86-83] Hayward Free Throw 1 of 2 (17 PTS) 00:45.1 [UTA 87-83] Hayward Free Throw 2 of 2 (18 PTS) Team Timeout : Short 00:45.1 Carter 3pt Shot: Made (15 PTS) Assist: Nowitzki (3 AST) 00:39.0 [DAL 86-87] 00:15.7 Harris 3pt Shot: Missed Team Rebound 00:15.7 Team Timeout : Regular 00:15.7 Carter 3pt Shot: Made (18 PTS) Assist: Nowitzki (4 AST) 00:08.5 [DAL 89-87] 00:08.5 Team Timeout : Regular 00:02.2 Hayward Driving Jump shot: Missed 00:02.2 Millsap Rebound (Off:4 Def:3) 00:02.2 [UTA 89-89] Millsap Putback Dunk Shot: Made (8 PTS) Nowitzki 3pt Shot: Missed 00:00.7 Team Rebound 00:00.0 End of 4th Quarter Start of 1st Overtime (05:00) Jump Ball Jefferson vs Mahinmi (Harris gains possession) 04:43 Harris 3pt Shot: Missed Nowitzki Rebound (Off:0 Def:8) 04:42 Nowitzki Jump Shot: Missed Block: Jefferson (1 BLK) 04:24 Team Rebound 04:24 Terry 3pt Shot: Made (16 PTS) 04:20 [DAL 92-89] Mahinmi Foul: Defense 3 Second (2 PF) 04:06 04:06 [UTA 90-92] Hayward Free Throw Technical (19 PTS) 03:56 Carroll Turnover : Bad Pass (2 TO) Steal:Mahinmi (2 ST) Terry Running Jump Shot: Made (18 PTS) Assist: Kidd (6 AST) 03:43 [DAL 94-90] 03:22 [UTA 92-94] Jefferson Jump Shot: Made (20 PTS) Assist: Hayward (3 AST) Nowitzki Fadeaway Jump Shot: Made (35 PTS) 02:59 [DAL 96-92] 02:43 [UTA 95-96] Hayward 3pt Shot: Made (22 PTS) Assist: Harris (5 AST) Nowitzki Jump Shot: Missed 02:20 02:19 Jefferson Rebound (Off:4 Def:17) 02:06 [UTA 98-96] Harris 3pt Shot: Made (16 PTS) Assist: Hayward (4 AST) Team Timeout : Regular 02:05 Terry Jump Shot: Missed 01:51 Team Rebound 01:49 01:43 Millsap Foul: Personal (4 PF) Nowitzki Jump Shot: Missed 01:27 01:26 Jefferson Rebound (Off:4 Def:18) 01:05 [UTA 100-96] Harris Running Jump Shot: Made (18 PTS) Carter Foul: Shooting (5 PF) 01:05 Nowitzki Technical 01:05 01:05 Hayward Free Throw Technical Missed 01:05 Team Rebound 01:05 Harris Free Throw 1 of 1 Missed Carter Rebound (Off:1 Def:5) 01:04 00:57.7 Jefferson Foul: Personal (3 PF) Kidd Free Throw 1 of 2 Missed 00:57.7 Team Rebound 00:57.7 Kidd Free Throw 2 of 2 (10 PTS) 00:57.7 [DAL 97-100] Mahinmi Foul: Shooting (3 PF) 00:51.1 00:51.1 Millsap Free Throw 1 of 2 Missed 00:51.1 Team Rebound 00:51.1 [UTA 101-97] Millsap Free Throw 2 of 2 (9 PTS) Mahinmi Dunk Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Carter (3 AST) 00:42.5 [DAL 99-101] 00:21.5 [UTA 103-99] Millsap Fadeaway Jump Shot: Made (11 PTS) Team Timeout : Regular 00:21.5 Terry Jump Shot: Made (20 PTS) 00:15.5 [DAL 101-103] 00:15.5 Jefferson Foul: Shooting (4 PF) Terry Free Throw 1 of 1 (21 PTS) 00:15.5 [DAL 102-103] Terry Foul: Personal (3 PF) 00:13.4 00:13.4 [UTA 104-102] Hayward Free Throw 1 of 2 (23 PTS) 00:13.4 [UTA 105-102] Hayward Free Throw 2 of 2 (24 PTS) Team Timeout : Short 00:13.4 Mahinmi Substitution replaced by Cardinal 00:13.4 00:13.4 Jefferson Substitution replaced by Tinsley Nowitzki 3pt Shot: Made (38 PTS) 00:03.9 [DAL 105-105] 00:03.9 Team Timeout : Regular 00:03.9 Carroll Substitution replaced by Jefferson Cardinal Substitution replaced by Mahinmi 00:03.9 00:01.3 Hayward Layup Shot: Missed 00:00.2 Jefferson Rebound (Off:5 Def:18) 00:00.1 Jefferson Tip Shot: Missed 00:00.0 Team Rebound End of 1st Overtime Start of 2nd Overtime (05:00) Jump Ball Jefferson vs Mahinmi (Millsap gains possession) Kidd Foul: Shooting Block (4 PF) 04:44 04:44 [UTA 106-105] Millsap Free Throw 1 of 2 (12 PTS) 04:44 [UTA 107-105] Millsap Free Throw 2 of 2 (13 PTS) 04:32 Carroll Foul: Personal (3 PF) Mahinmi Reverse Layup Shot: Missed 04:19 04:18 Hayward Rebound (Off:1 Def:3) 04:00 Jefferson Turnaround Jump Shot: Missed Carter Rebound (Off:1 Def:6) 03:59 Terry Jump Shot: Missed 03:45 03:44 Jefferson Rebound (Off:5 Def:19) 03:28 Jump Ball Millsap vs Terry (Carroll gains possession) 03:21 Harris 3pt Shot: Missed Mahinmi Rebound (Off:2 Def:2) 03:19 Carter Jump Shot: Missed 03:02 Nowitzki Rebound (Off:1 Def:8) 03:01 03:01 Carroll Foul: Personal (4 PF) Terry Fadeaway Jump Shot: Made (23 PTS) 02:48 [DAL 107-107] 02:24 Millsap Jump Shot: Missed 02:22 Team Rebound Mahinmi Foul: Loose Ball (4 PF) 02:22 02:00 [UTA 109-107] Jefferson Jump Shot: Made (22 PTS) Assist: Carroll (5 AST) 01:46 Millsap Foul: Shooting (5 PF) Nowitzki Free Throw 1 of 2 (39 PTS) 01:46 [DAL 108-109] Nowitzki Free Throw 2 of 2 (40 PTS) 01:46 [DAL 109-109] Nowitzki Foul: Shooting (3 PF) 01:27 01:27 Harris Free Throw 1 of 2 Missed 01:27 Team Rebound 01:27 Harris Free Throw 2 of 2 Missed Carter Rebound (Off:1 Def:7) 01:27 Team Timeout : Regular 01:27 Mahinmi Dunk Shot: Made (6 PTS) Assist: Nowitzki (5 AST) 01:21 [DAL 111-109] 01:03 Carroll Jump Shot: Missed Block: Carter (1 BLK) Carter Rebound (Off:1 Def:8) 01:02 Carter 3pt Shot: Missed 00:43.9 00:42.9 Jefferson Rebound (Off:5 Def:20) 00:29.0 [UTA 111-111] Jefferson Turnaround Jump Shot: Made (24 PTS) Assist: Carroll (6 AST) Team Timeout : Short 00:29.0 Terry Jump Bank Shot: Missed 00:10.9 00:09.9 Jefferson Rebound (Off:5 Def:21) 00:09.3 Team Timeout : Regular 00:09.3 Carroll Substitution replaced by Tinsley 00:05.6 Millsap Turnover : Poss Lost Ball Turnover (4 TO) Team Timeout : Short 00:05.6 00:05.6 Tinsley Substitution replaced by Carroll Nowitzki Turnover : Bad Pass (3 TO) Steal:Jefferson (1 ST) 00:01.9 00:00.5 Millsap 3pt Shot: Missed 00:00.0 Team Rebound End of 2nd Overtime Start of 3rd Overtime (05:00) Jump Ball Jefferson vs Mahinmi (Harris gains possession) 04:38 Millsap Jump Shot: Missed Mahinmi Rebound (Off:2 Def:3) 04:37 West Jump Shot: Missed 04:20 04:19 Millsap Rebound (Off:4 Def:4) 04:02 [UTA 113-111] Jefferson Turnaround Jump Shot: Made (26 PTS) Assist: Harris (6 AST) 03:47 Harris Foul: Personal (3 PF) Terry Jump Shot: Made (25 PTS) 03:39 [DAL 113-113] 03:17 Jefferson Jump Shot: Missed Carter Rebound (Off:1 Def:9) 03:16 Nowitzki Fadeaway Jump Shot: Missed 02:55 02:55 Team Rebound 02:35 Jefferson Jump Shot: Missed Carter Rebound (Off:1 Def:10) 02:33 Mahinmi Layup Shot: Missed Block: Jefferson (2 BLK) 02:18 02:16 Harris Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 02:11 [UTA 115-113] Millsap Jump Shot: Made (15 PTS) Assist: Harris (7 AST) Team Timeout : Regular 02:08 Terry Jump Shot: Made (27 PTS) Assist: Nowitzki (6 AST) 01:54 [DAL 115-115] Mahinmi Foul: Personal (5 PF) 01:43 01:38 [UTA 118-115] Harris 3pt Shot: Made (21 PTS) Assist: Hayward (5 AST) Nowitzki 3pt Shot: Missed 01:23 01:22 Millsap Rebound (Off:4 Def:5) 01:08 [UTA 120-115] Jefferson Jump Shot: Made (28 PTS) Team Timeout : Regular 01:08 West 3pt Shot: Made (13 PTS) Assist: Carter (4 AST) 00:56.8 [DAL 118-120] 00:34.9 Jefferson Jump Shot: Missed 00:33.9 Carroll Rebound (Off:2 Def:2) Nowitzki Foul: Shooting (4 PF) 00:14.9 00:14.9 [UTA 121-118] Millsap Free Throw 1 of 2 (16 PTS) 00:14.9 Millsap Free Throw 2 of 2 Missed Carter Rebound (Off:1 Def:11) 00:14.4 Team Timeout : Short 00:14.4 Mahinmi Substitution replaced by Cardinal 00:14.4 00:14.4 Jefferson Substitution replaced by Tinsley 00:11.8 Carroll Foul: Personal (5 PF) Terry 3pt Shot: Missed 00:09.9 Team Rebound 00:08.4 Nowitzki 3pt Shot: Missed 00:05.8 00:04.8 Team Rebound Cardinal Foul: Loose Ball (1 PF) 00:04.8 00:04.8 [UTA 122-118] Harris Free Throw 1 of 2 (22 PTS) Cardinal Substitution replaced by Mahinmi 00:04.8 00:04.8 [UTA 123-118] Harris Free Throw 2 of 2 (23 PTS) West 3pt Shot: Made (16 PTS) 00:00.1 [DAL 121-123] End of 3rd Overtime #665 Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:43 AM Sun 18 vs Oklahoma City Preseason L 92-106<br /> Tue 20 @ Oklahoma City Preseason L 83-87<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="color: #ff0000">2011-12</span> <span style="color: #004000">Dallas Mavericks</span>(<span style="color: #ff0000">34-28</span>)<br /> Sun 25 vs Miami L 94-105<br /> Mon 26 vs Denver L 93-115<br /> Thu 29 @ Oklahoma City L 102-104<br /> Fri 30 vs Toronto <span style="color: #ff0000">W 99</span>-86<br /> <br /> <span style="color: #0000bf">January </span>Opponent Results<br /> Sun 01 @ Minnesota L 82-99<br /> Mon 02 vs Oklahoma City <span style="color: #ff0000">W 100-</span>87<br /> Wed 04 vs Phoenix <span style="color: #ff0000">W 98</span>-89<br /> Thu 05 @ San Antonio L 71-93<br /> Sat 07 vs New Orleans <span style="color: #ff0000">W 96</span>-81<br /> Tue 10 @ Detroit <span style="color: #ff0000">W 100</span>-86<br /> Wed 11 @ Boston Celtics <span style="color: #ff0000">W 90</span>-85<br /> Fri 13 vs Milwaukee <span style="color: #ff0000">W 102</span>-76<br /> Sat 14 vs Sacramento <span style="color: #ff0000">W 99</span>-60<br /> Mon 16 vs lal L 70-73<br /> Wed 18 vs LAC L 89-91<br /> Thur 19 vs Utah <span style="color: #ff0000">W 94</span>-91<br /> Sat 21 @ NO <span style="color: #ff0000">W 83</span>-81<br /> Mon 23 vs PHO <span style="color: #ff0000">W 93</span>-87<br /> Wed 25 vs MIN L 90-105<br /> Fri 27 vs Utah <span style="color: #ff0000">W 115</span>-101<br /> Sun 29 vs San Antonio <span style="color: #ff0000">W 101</span>-100<br /> Mon 30 @ Phoenix <span style="color: #ff0000">W 122</span>-99<br /> <br /> <span style="color: #0000bf">February </span>Opponent Results<br /> Wed 01 vs Oklahoma City L 86-95<br /> Fri 03 vs IND L 87-98<br /> Sat 04 vs CLE L 88-91.<br /> Wed 08 vs Denver <span style="color: #ff0000">W 105</span>-95.<br /> Fri 10 @ Minnesota <span style="color: #ff0000">W 104</span>-97<br /> Sat 11 vs Portland <span style="color: #ff0000">W 97</span>-94<br /> Mon 13 vs LAC <span style="color: #ff0000">W 96</span>-92<br /> Wed 15 vs Denver <span style="color: #ff0000">W 102</span>-84<br /> Fri 17 @ Philadelphia <span style="color: #ff0000">W 82</span>-75<br /> Sun 19 @ New York L 97-104<br /> Mon 20 vs Boston <span style="color: #ff0000">W 89</span>-73<br /> Wed 22 vs lal 91-96<br /> Tue 28 vs New Jersey L 92-93<br /> Wed 29 @ Memphis L 85-96<br /> <br /> <span style="color: #0000bf">March</span> Opponent Result<br /> Fri 02 @ New Orleans L 92-97<br /> Sat 03 vs Utah <span style="color: #ff0000">W 102</span>-96<br /> Mon 05 @ Oklahoma City L 91-95<br /> Tue 06 vs New York <span style="color: #ff0000">W 95</span>-85<br /> Thu 08 @ Phoenix L 94-96.<br /> Fri 09 @ Sacramento L 97-110<br /> Sat 10 @ Golden State L 87-111<br /> Tue 13 @ Washington <span style="color: #ff0000">W 107</span>-98<br /> Thu 15 vs Charlotte <span style="color: #ff0000">W 101</span>-96<br /> Sat 17 vs San Antonio <span style="color: #ff0000">W 106</span>-99<br /> Mon 19 @ Denver <span style="color: #ff0000">W 112 </span>-95<br /> Wed 21 vs lal L 93-109.<br /> Fri 23 @ San Antonio L 87-104<br /> Sat 24 @ Houston <span style="color: #ff0000">W 101</span>-99<br /> Tue 27 vs Rockets <span style="color: #ff0000">W 90</span>-81<br /> Thu 29 @ Miami L 85-106.<br /> Fri 30 @ Orlando <span style="color: #ff0000">W 100</span>-98.<br /> <br /> <span style="color: #0000bf">April </span>Opponent Result<br /> Mon 02 vs L.A.C. L 75-94.<br /> Wed 04 vs Grizzlies <span style="color: #ff0000">W 95</span>-85<br /> Fri 06 vs Trail Blazers L 97-99.<br /> Sat 07 @ Memphis L 89-94.<br /> Tue 10 vs Sacramento <span style="color: #ff0000">W 110</span>-100<br /> Thu 12 @ Golden State <span style="color: #ff0000">W 112</span>-103.<br /> Fri 13 @ Portland <span style="color: #ff0000">W 97</span>-94<br /> Sun 15 @ L.A.L. L 108-112<br /> Mon 16 @ Utah L 121-123<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="color: #0000bf">Southwest</span>.........W-L.....PCT...GB....CONF..DIV..HOME..ROAD..L 10..STREAK<br /> San Antonio.....43-16..0.729...0.0...29-13..12-4..25-5..18-11...8-2....W 3<br /> Memphis..........35-25..0.583...8.5...23-22....6-8..22-7..13-18...7-3....L 1<br /> <span style="color: #004000">Dallas...............34-28..0.548..10.5..24-22....7-5..21-10.13-18...5-5....L 2</span><br /> Houston..........32-29..0.525..12.0..21-23....5-6..20-11.12-18...5-5....L 4<br /> New Orleans..19-42..0.311..25.0..12-31....2-9..10-22..9-20....6-4...W 4<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="color: #ff0000">UP NEXT</span>:<br /> For the <span style="color: #004000">Mavericks</span>, Wednesday vs. Rockets.<br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="color: #0000bf">Southwest</span>.....W-L.....PCT...GB....CONF..DIV..HOME..ROAD..L 10..STREAK<br /> <span style="color: #004000">Dallas............34-28..0.548..10.5..24-22....7-5..21-10.13-18...5-5....L 2</span><br /> Houston........32-29..0.525..12.0..21-23....5-6..20-11.12-18...5-5....L 4 </span></div> #666 Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:37 AM (34-28) Mavericks-vs-Rockets (32-29)....7:30pm CT...KTXA-21...KESN-FM (103.3), KFLC-AM (1270 in Spanish) American Airlines Center, Dallas,TX. Rockets." ...SERIES...(2-0) 03/24 - DAL 101 @ HOU 99 03/27 - HOU 81 @ DAL 90 04/18 - HOU @ DAL #667 Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:38 AM rpg apg bpg spg HOU Martin 17.1 Dalembert 7.1 Lowry 6.8 Dalembert 1.8 Lowry 1.6 ppg rpg apg bpg spg DAL Nowitzki 21.6 Marion 7.4 Kidd 5.5 Wright 1.3 Kidd 1.8 SERIES NOTES: The Mavericks swept their home-and-home series with the Rockets on 3/24/12 and 3/27/12 and have now won six straight against Houston in the regular season. …The six-game winning streak marks the longest winning streak by one Texas team against another since Dallas won six straight against Houston in 2007 (1/16/07-12/15/07). …The Mavericks will look to sweep the season series with the Rockets (3-0) with a victory at home on 4/18/12. …The Mavericks recorded a 101-99 overtime win in the first meeting in Houston on 3/24/12. …It marked the second consecutive overtime game between the two clubs (Dallas also defeated Houston 98-91 in overtime on the road on 4/11/11). …The Mavericks took the second meeting 90-81 at American Airlines Center on 3/27/12 and have now gone 15-4 in their last 19 games against the Rockets at home. …The Mavericks have won 20 of the last 26 overall meetings with the Rockets in the regular season. …Houston’s last victory over Dallas in the regular season came at home on 12/31/09 (defeated Dallas 97-94). …The Rockets’ last road win over the Mavericks was a 116-108 overtime decision on 12/18/09. …Dallas defeated Houston by nine (90-81) in the most recent matchup between the two teams on 3/27/12, but the previous four meetings were decided by seven points or less. …The Mavericks have taken 12 of the last 16 showdowns in Houston. …Dirk Nowitzki scored a game-high 31 points (10-20 FGs, 2-6 3FGs, 9-10 FTs) to go along with seven rebounds, three assists and two blocks in 39 minutes in the victory over Houston on 3/24/12. …He moved past Charles Barkley (23,757) and into 19th place on the NBA’s all-time scoring list with his 31st point of the game (a free throw at the 18.5-second mark of overtime). …Nowitzki is averaging 26.0 points, 6.5 rebounds and 37.0 mpg in two games against the Rockets this season…Brandan Wright recorded 14 points (7-9 FGs) six rebounds and a career-high seven blocked shots at Houston (3/24/12). He is averaging 13.5 ppg, 6.5 rpg and 32.0 mpg against Houston this year, while shooting 81.3 percent (13-of-16) from the field. …Rodrigue Beaubois is averaging 10.0 ppg, 4.0 apg and 26.5 mpg against Houston in 2011-12. …Shawn Marion is averaging 8.0 ppg, 13.0 rpg and 32.5 mpg in two meetings with the Rockets this year. CONNECTIONS: Rockets head coach Kevin McHale and Mavericks head coach Rick Carlisle were teammates on the Boston Celtics from 1984-86 and won an NBA championship together in 1986. …Rockets player development coach Greg Buckner played for the Mavericks from 1999-2002 and again in 2006-07. …He averaged 5.2 ppg, 3.2 rpg and 19.5 mpg in 205 games (37 starts) with Dallas. …Mavericks forward Brian Cardinal and Rockets guard Kyle Lowry were teammates in Memphis from 2006-08. …Mavericks center Brendan Haywood and Rockets guard Earl Boykins were teammates on the Wizards for the first half of the 2009-10 season. …Mavericks athletic trainer Casey Smith and Rockets athletic trainer Keith Jones worked together on the athletic training staff for the U.S. Sr. National Basketball program from 2006-2008 (2006 World Championships, 2007 Olympic Qualifying, 2008 Summer Olympics). MAV'S INJURY/PLAYER STATUS: Rodrigue Beaubois (right calf strain) is questionable." "ROCKET'S Injuries. Marcus Camby (sore lower back/left wrist sprain)." #668 Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:12 AM Rockets Vs. Mavericks: Dirk Nowitzki Drops 21 In Fourth As Dallas Stuns Houston With Comeback. By Steve von Horn. "Dirk Nowitzki scored 21 Points on 4-6 FGs and 11-11 FTs in the fourth quarter as the Dallas Mavericks pulled off a 117-110 comeback win over the Houston Rockets on Wednesday night. At this point, the phrase "losing streak" doesn't do the Houston Rockets justice. Anyone who just started watching Rockets this week might think they've been commissioned by North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un. Houston has mixed close losses with clear defeats along the way, and now it no longer control its playoff destiny. On Wednesday it had the game in hand heading into the fourth quarter, and then the grizzled playoff veterans on the Mavericks snatched it away like candy from a (post-season) baby. Dirk Nowitzki pumped in 21 of his game-high 35 points in the final period and Dallas seized a 117-110 win. All five Rockets starters -- Chandler Parsons (12), Luis Scola (18), Marcus Camby (11), Courtney Lee (16) and Goran Dragic (20) -- scored in double figures, while Kyle Lowry (11) and Chase Budinger (14) chipped in to make it seven Houston players hitting that mark in total. Unfortunately, nearly all of that group front-loaded its effort into the first three periods. Dragic hit his first six shots and dished out all 10 of his assists before the fourth quarter, and Scola saved 12 of his 18 points for a third-quarter run that put the team up 84-78 heading into the penultimate period. Then the collapse came. Some great analysis of what turned the contest in the fourth quarter comes from Rob Mahoney of The Two Man Game:. ... Houston warily tried to attack what they initially perceived as created mismatches, only to fall back into a less aggressive offense and let Dallas switch without penalty. A relentless cascade of big plays from Dirk simply overwhelmed the Rockets at the last. The sheer weight of Nowitzki's fourth quarter effort speaks for itself: Score ..Dirk Nowitzki's 4th Quarter (12 Min, 21 Points on 4-6 FGs and 11-11 FTs) (Hou- Dal) 88-85 Dirk Nowitzki makes 25-foot three-point jumper (Vince Carter assists) 90-88 Dirk Nowitzki makes 24-foot three-point jumper (Jason Kidd assists) 94-101 Dirk Nowitzki makes driving layup (Jason Kidd assists) 94-102 Dirk Nowitzki makes free throw 1 of 1 98-103 Dirk Nowitzki makes free throw 1 of 2 98-104 Dirk Nowitzki makes free throw 2 of 2 100-108 Dirk Nowitzki makes free throw 1 of 2 100-109 Dirk Nowitzki makes free throw 2 of 2 103-110 Dirk Nowitzki makes free throw 1 of 2 103-111 Dirk Nowitzki makes free throw 2 of 2 107-113 Dirk Nowitzki makes layup (Jason Terry assists) 107-114 Dirk Nowitzki makes free throw 1 of 2 107-115 Dirk Nowitzki makes free throw 2 of 2 110-116 Dirk Nowitzki makes free throw 1 of 2 110-117 Dirk Nowitzki makes free throw 2 of 2 He was sparkling on spot ups, swift on drives and even sweetened it all with a back-door spin and cut around Dragic on a layup for his last field goal of the night. Sprinkle in smaller contributions from Jason Terry, Vince Carter and Jason Kidd -- which added up to 64.7 percent shooting, nine assists on 11 made baskets and just one turnover for the team -- and that's how the Mavs outscored the Rockets 39-26 in the final period to claim their victory. Meanwhile, Luis Scola literally did nothing but commit fouls in his final six-minute stint, while Goran Dragic coughed up more turnovers (1) than he dished out assists (0) and the bench trio of Kyle Lowry, Patrick Patterson and Chase Budinger kept the game within "close, but not-good-enough" range, which is probably better than the "total meltdown" alternative as a matter of degree on the team's failure." #669 Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:12 AM Dallas Mavericks close in on playoff berth with late magic. Posted by Dwain Price. DALLAS--"They gave their fans a little dose of some fourth-quarter magic Wednesday night at American Airlines Canter. For that, the Dallas Mavericks need only one victory in their final three games after they rallied for a 117-110 triumph over the slumping Houston Rockets. One more loss each for the Rockets (32-30) and Phoenix Suns (32-30), or a Dallas victory, will wrap up a playoff spot and put the Mavericks (35-28) in position to at least have the chance to successfully defend their NBA title. "We understand things and we talked about it [Wednesday] morning,'' coach Rick Carlisle said. "This game was really pivotal in so many ways because it's a double court game on the whole magic number thing, and it effectively takes one team [Houston] out of it, which is big. "We've got three more important games to go and they're all meaningful.'' The Mavs, who collected 39 points in the fourth quarter when they scored on 17 of their first 20 possessions, knew Wednesday's game was meaningful, also. Perhaps that's why when the money quarter rolled around, they rolled up their sleeves and started doing some serious damage. Down 84-76 very late in the third period, the Mavs woke up in time to go on a 26-10 run and assume a 102-94 lead with 4:05 left. Most of the damage was done by Dirk Nowitzki, who tallied nine of his game-high 35 points in the run that inched the Mavs ever so close to the playoffs. Jason Terry also played a pivotal role in the comeback, as did Jason Kidd and Vince Carter, who finished with 23 points. "He just had a really strong disposition at both ends of the floor,'' Carlisle said of Carter. "Defensively, he was putting his body on people and he was rebounding. "He's a tremendous all-around player. His passing ability is something that's frequently overlooked because he's a high flyer and scorer.'' Kidd's passing certainly wasn't overlooked. The 18-year veteran scored 12 points -- he was 4 of 7 from 3-point range --and also finished with eight assists while getting kudos from Delonte West for helping jump-start the comeback. "He came in late in the third and he just got the ball to the right guys at the right time,'' West said. "And he hit big shot after big shot all game, and that's what it's about. "And our scorers -- Vince and Dirk and Jet -- they put this team on their back.'' The game was tied 27-27 after the first period and 55-55 at the half before the Rockets started getting some separation in the third quarter when Luis Scola tallied 12 of his 18 points. But the Mavs showed they had plenty of fight left when the game was still there for the taking. "It was definitely important to get this win tonight,'' center Brendan Haywood said. "Houston's a team that's fighting for one of those last playoff spots, so it was almost like a game that had a playoff-type atmosphere. "It had playoff implications, so it was important that we got this one. Now we know that we're a couple of games away from locking this thing in and locking ourselves in the playoffs.'' Playoff picture A look at where the Mavs stand with three games left: .....Team......W-L...GB 1. Spurs.......45-16.---- 2. Thunder*..44-17..1.0 3. Lakers*....39-23..6.5 4. Clippers....39-23.6.5 5. Grizzlies...37-25..8.5 6. Mavericks.35-28.11.0 7. Nuggets...34-28.11.5 8. Suns*......32-29.13.0 .....In the hunt...... 9. Jazz........33-30.13.0 10. Rockets..32-30.13.5 *Played late Wednesday. #670 Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:13 AM Mavericks, Dirk Nowitzki deal Rockets fifth straight loss, Associated Press, DALLAS--." Game. ...." (30,600) #671 Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:49 AM 7:30 PM CT-American Airlines Center, Dallas, TX FINAL HOU-27-28-29-26=110 DAL--27-28-23-39=117 Houston Rockets (32-30)....field goals..rebounds .................pos min fgm-a 3pm-a ftm-a +/- off def tot ast pf st to bs ba=pts C. Parsons F 30:52 4-13 2-6 2-2 -6 2 2 4 4 2 0 0 0 0 12 L. Scola F 30:10 6-11 0-0 6-6 +1 1 5 6 1 6 2 1 0 1 18 M. Camby C 36:59 5-11 0-0 1-2 0 5 12 17 1 2 1 2 0 0 11 C. Lee G-F 38:47 6-14 4-7 0-0 +7 0 2 2 0 3 2 2 0 0 16 G. Dragic G 31:56 8-12 2-4 2-3 +9 1 1 2 10 3 2 6 0 0 20 P. Patterson 21:18 3-4 0-0 0-0 -11 2 1 3 2 2 0 0 1 0 6 K. Lowry 18:34 4-9 2-5 1-1 -17 1 0 1 5 5 0 1 0 0 11 C. Budinger 25:07 6-10 2-6 0-1 -14 0 3 3 0 1 0 0 0 0 14 S. Dalembert 06:16 1-2 0-0 0-0 -4 2 2 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 E. Boykins....00:00 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 K. Martin.....00:00 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 M. Morris....00:00 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Totals...240 43-86 12-28 12-15 14 28 42 23 24 7 12 1 1=110 .....................50.0% 42.9% 80.0% team rebs: 0 total to: 12 Dallas Mavericks (35-28)....field goals...rebounds ................pos min fgm-a 3pm-a ftm-a +/- off def tot ast pf st to bs ba=pts S. Marion F 25:57 2-6 0-0 0-0 -18 0 6 6 1 1 2 1 0 0 4 D. Nowitzki F 38:32 10-18 3-4 12-12 +17 0 5 5 2 3 1 0 0 1 35 B. Haywood C 14:52 1-4 0-0 1-2 -9 3 1 4 0 0 0 1 0 0 3 D. West G 20:57 5-9 0-2 1-1 -11 0 2 2 3 1 2 3 0 0 11 J. Kidd G 34:53 4-7 4-7 0-0 +1 0 3 3 8 1 0 1 0 0 12 J. Terry 32:40 6-11 3-6 4-5 +14 1 3 4 3 3 0 3 0 0 19 V. Carter 29:32 8-18 1-6 6-6 +20 3 1 4 3 1 1 1 0 0 23 I. Mahinmi 12:14 2-2 0-0 0-0 +9 0 3 3 0 4 0 1 0 0 4 R. Beaubois 09:38 1-2 0-1 0-0 +5 0 4 4 1 2 0 1 0 0 2 B. Wright 20:46 2-2 0-0 0-0 +7 3 2 5 0 0 0 0 1 0 4 B. Cardinal..00:00 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Y. Jianlian...00:00 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 D. Jones.....00:00 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Totals.......240 41-79 11-26 24-26 10 30 40 21 16 6 12 1 1=117 .......................51.9% 42.3% 92.3% team rebs: 4 total to: 12 inactive Rockets: Fortson, Simpson, Smith Mavericks: Azubuike, Odom technical fouls Rockets: -- Mavericks: -- scoring Lead Changes: 14 Times Tied: 8 arena stats Arena: American Airlines Center, Dallas,TX. Officials: #41 Ken Mauer, #59 Gary Zielinski, #77 Karl Lane Attendance: 20508 Duration: 2:14 #672 Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:50 AM Notebook: Mavericks 117, Rockets 110. By Dave Ivey, for NBA.com. "THE FACTS: Dirk Nowitzki scored 21 of his 35 points in the fourth quarter Wednesday, rallying the Dallas Mavericks to a 117-110 victory against the reeling Houston Rockets at the American Airlines Center. Dallas (35-28) completed a three-game sweep of the season series and handed Houston (32-30) its fifth consecutive loss. Vince Carter scored a season-high 23 points, Jason Terry added 19 and Jason Kidd tallied 12 points and eight assists for the defending champions, who can clinch a return to the playoffs with a victory at home Friday against Golden State. Seven players scored in double figures for the Rockets, led by Goran Dragic with 20 points and 10 assists, Luis Scola with 18 points and Marcus Camby with 11 points and a game-high 17 rebounds. QUOTABLE: "We really needed the win and our guys weren't going to let it go."-- Mavericks head coach Rick Carlisle. THE STAT: All four of Kidd's made baskets were from 3-point range (4-for-7). So far this season, 79 of his 99 field goals have come from behind the arc. TURNING POINT: Entering the game, Dallas was 3-24 when trailing after three quarters and Houston was 27-4 when it held the lead going into the fourth. This time, however, the Mavericks showed the finishing form that carried them to the title last season. They overwhelmed Houston with 39 points on 65 percent shooting (11-for-17) in the fourth quarter. QUOTABLE II: "It's tough now. We basically have to win out. We do have to win out. ... Now it's to the point where we are going to need some help. We've got handle our business first, though. ... We have to stay together. We can't start hanging our heads now, because as crazy as it sounds, it's not over yet."-- Rockets forward Chandler Parsons. HOT: Streaky shooting was contagious for Dallas. In addition to Nowitzki's 21-point fourth period, Carter scored the Mavericks' final 10 points of the first quarter, Terry scored 12 of their first 14 in the second quarter and Kidd drained three consecutive 3-pointers to close out the first half. NOT: After winning four straight games -- all on the road -- from April 2-9, the Rockets have dropped five in a row while allowing an average of 107.6 points per game. Houston is in a dogfight for the final playoff spot in the West with Phoenix and Utah. GOOD MOVE: Carter capped another vintage "Vinsanity" performance with an emphatic, two-handed putback slam with 5:31 remaining. FANTASY SPOTLIGHT: Nowitzki scored 31 in the second half, three shy of his own franchise record for a half set against Utah on Nov. 3, 2009. His back-to-back 3-pointers sparked a decisive 20-6 run in the fourth and he finished 10-for-18 from the field and 12-for-12 from the line (11-for-11 in the fourth quarter). It was his eighth 30-point game of the season. INSIDE THE ARENA: Technical difficulties with the sound system delayed the start of the game for several minutes. There was another audio outage during the second quarter. ROOKIE WATCH: Parsons scored 12 points on 4-for-13 shooting and added four rebounds and four assists. NOTABLE: Dallas guard Delonte West was fined $25,000 by the NBA for poking Utah forward Gordon Hayward in the ear Monday night. ... Terry drained his 1,784th career 3-pointer at the 11:22 mark of the second quarter, passing Chauncey Billups for fourth place on the NBA's all-time list. ... The Mavericks have had at least five players score in double figures in eight straight games. ... Carter needs one 3-pointer to reach 1,500 for his career. ... There were eight ties and 14 lead changes." #673 Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:52 AM FG%==50.0%-51.9% 3FG%=42.9%-42.3% FT%=80.0%-92.3% ..................................HOU-DAL Total Rebounds..........42-40 Offensive Rebounds.14-10 Turnovers...................12-12 Fast Break Pts............22--7 Biggest Lead................9--9 Points in the Paint.....38-34 .................HOU.................DAL p......Dragic=20...Nowitzki=35 rb....Camby=17.......Marion=6 a......Dragic=10...........Kidd=8 s...3 players=2....2 players=2 b.Patterson=1.........Wright=1 ...SERIES...(3-0)...Sweep! 03/24 - DAL 101 @ HOU 99 03/27 - HOU 81 @ DAL 90 04/18 - HOU 110 @ DAL 117 UP NEXT: For the Mavericks, Friday vs. Golden State. For the Rockets, Thursday @ New Orleans. #674 Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:03 AM Houston Rockets (<span style="color: #ff0000">32-30</span>) <span style="color: #004000">Dallas Mavericks</span> (<span style="color: #ff0000">35-28</span>)<br /> <br /> <span style="color: #ff0000">Start of 1st Quarter </span><br /> (12:00) Jump Ball Haywood vs Camby (Nowitzki gains possession)<br /> 11:45 Nowitzki Turnaround Fadeaway shot: Missed<br /> Camby Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 11:44<br /> Scola Jump Shot: Missed 11:29<br /> 11:28 West Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)<br /> 11:08 Marion Turnaround Hook Shot: Missed<br /> Camby Rebound (Off:0 Def:2) 11:07<br /> Camby Turnover : Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal:West (1 ST) 10:53<br /> 10:42<br /> [DAL 2-0] West Jump Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: Kidd (1 AST)<br /> Parsons Jump Shot: Missed 10:25<br /> 10:24 West Rebound (Off:0 Def:2)<br /> Camby Foul: Shooting (1 PF) 10:06<br /> 10:06 Haywood Free Throw 1 of 2 Missed<br /> 10:06 Team Rebound<br /> 10:06<br /> [DAL 3-0] Haywood Free Throw 2 of 2 (1 PTS)<br /> Lee 3pt Shot: Made (3 PTS) Assist: Parsons (1 AST) 09:54<br /> [HOU 3-3]<br /> 09:41<br /> [DAL 5-3] Nowitzki Running Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: Kidd (2 AST)<br /> Lee 3pt Shot: Made (6 PTS) Assist: Dragic (1 AST) 09:30<br /> [HOU 6-5]<br /> 09:11 West 3pt Shot: Missed<br /> Camby Rebound (Off:0 Def:3) 09:10<br /> Scola Jump Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: Parsons (2 AST) 08:49<br /> [HOU 8-5]<br /> 08:32<br /> [DAL 7-8] Marion Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: Kidd (3 AST)<br /> Dragic Turnover : Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal:West (2 ST) 08:06<br /> 08:01 Haywood Turnover : Bad Pass (1 TO)<br /> Lee 3pt Shot: Missed 07:48<br /> 07:47 Haywood Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)<br /> 07:37<br /> [DAL 9-8] Nowitzki Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Marion (1 AST)<br /> Camby Jump Shot: Missed 07:17<br /> 07:17 Marion Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)<br /> 07:02<br /> [DAL 11-8] West Step Back Jump shot: Made (4 PTS)<br /> Dragic Step Back Jump shot: Made (2 PTS) 06:53<br /> [HOU 10-11]<br /> 06:43<br /> [DAL 13-10] Haywood Running Layup Shot: Made (3 PTS) Assist: West (1 AST)<br /> Scola Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Dragic (2 AST) 06:27<br /> [HOU 12-13]<br /> 06:08 Haywood Jump Hook Shot: Missed<br /> Scola Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 06:07<br /> Dragic Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) 05:59<br /> [HOU 14-13]<br /> 05:58 Team Timeout : Regular<br /> 05:45 Marion Jump Shot: Missed<br /> 05:44 Haywood Rebound (Off:1 Def:1)<br /> 05:44 Haywood Tip Shot: Missed<br /> Camby Rebound (Off:0 Def:4) 05:43<br /> Camby Turnover : Double Dribble (2 TO) 05:41<br /> 05:41 Nowitzki Substitution replaced by Terry<br /> 05:41 West Substitution replaced by Carter<br /> Camby Violation:Kicked Ball 05:27<br /> 05:25 Carter Fadeaway Jump Shot: Missed<br /> Scola Rebound (Off:0 Def:2) 05:24<br /> 05:18 Terry Foul: Shooting (1 PF)<br /> Dragic Free Throw 1 of 2 (5 PTS) 05:18<br /> [HOU 15-13]<br /> Dragic Free Throw 2 of 2 (6 PTS) 05:18<br /> [HOU 16-13]<br /> 05:06 Carter Layup Shot: Missed<br /> 05:05 Carter Rebound (Off:1 Def:0)<br /> 05:05 Carter Tip Shot: Missed<br /> Scola Rebound (Off:0 Def:3) 05:04<br /> Dragic Foul: Offensive Charge (1 PF) 04:59<br /> Dragic Turnover : Foul (2 TO) 04:59<br /> 04:42<br /> [DAL 15-16] Marion Turnaround Bank shot: Made (4 PTS)<br /> Camby Running Jump Shot: Missed 04:26<br /> Camby Rebound (Off:1 Def:4) 04:25<br /> Camby Tip Shot: Made (2 PTS) 04:25<br /> [HOU 18-15]<br /> 04:10 Carter Driving Reverse Layup Shot: Missed<br /> Camby Rebound (Off:1 Def:5) 04:09<br /> Dragic Turnover : Out of Bounds Lost Ball Turnover (3 TO) 04:08<br /> 04:08 Haywood Substitution replaced by Mahinmi<br /> 04:08 Kidd Substitution replaced by West<br /> 03:56<br /> [DAL 17-18] Mahinmi Turnaround Hook Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: West (2 AST)<br /> 03:48 Mahinmi Foul: Personal (1 PF)<br /> Scola Turnover : Lost Ball (1 TO) Steal:Carter (1 ST) 03:41<br /> Scola Foul: Personal (1 PF) 03:33<br /> Parsons Foul: Shooting (1 PF) 03:24<br /> 03:24<br /> [DAL 18-18] Carter Free Throw 1 of 2 (1 PTS)<br /> Scola Substitution replaced by Patterson 03:24<br /> 03:24<br /> [DAL 19-18] Carter Free Throw 2 of 2 (2 PTS)<br /> Parsons 3pt Shot: Made (3 PTS) Assist: Dragic (3 AST) 03:02<br /> [HOU 21-19]<br /> 02:42 West Turnover : Lost Ball (1 TO) Steal:Camby (1 ST)<br /> Camby Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Parsons (3 AST) 02:30<br /> [HOU 23-19]<br /> 02:10<br /> [DAL 21-23] Carter Turnaround Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS)<br /> Parsons Driving Layup Shot: Made (5 PTS) Assist: Dragic (4 AST) 02:03<br /> [HOU 25-21]<br /> 01:38 Terry Turnover : Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal:Lee (1 ST)<br /> Dragic Running Layup Shot: Made (8 PTS) 01:35<br /> [HOU 27-21]<br /> 01:34 Team Timeout : Short<br /> Team Timeout : Regular 01:34<br /> 01:34 Marion Substitution replaced by Nowitzki<br /> Dragic Substitution replaced by Lowry 01:34<br /> Lowry Foul: Shooting (1 PF) 01:25<br /> 01:25<br /> [DAL 22-27] Carter Free Throw 1 of 2 (5 PTS)<br /> 01:25<br /> [DAL 23-27] Carter Free Throw 2 of 2 (6 PTS)<br /> Parsons Running Bank shot: Missed 01:03<br /> 01:02 Mahinmi Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)<br /> 00:50.9<br /> [DAL 25-27] Carter Running Slam Dunk Shot: Made (8 PTS)<br /> Lee Foul: Offensive Charge (1 PF) 00:37.8<br /> Lee Turnover : Foul (1 TO) 00:37.8<br /> 00:31.1<br /> [DAL 27-27] Carter Driving Dunk Shot: Made (10 PTS)<br /> Lee Jump Shot: Missed 00:08.9<br /> 00:08.7 Team Rebound<br /> 00:08.7 Mahinmi Substitution replaced by Beaubois<br /> Camby Substitution replaced by Budinger 00:08.7<br /> 00:01.8 Carter 3pt Shot: Missed<br /> Budinger Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 00:01.3<br /> <span style="color: #ff0000">End of 1st Quarter<br /> <br /> Start of 2nd Quarter</span><br /> Lowry Driving Jump shot: Missed 11:45<br /> Dalembert Rebound (Off:1 Def:0) 11:44<br /> 11:44 Nowitzki Foul: Loose Ball (1 PF)<br /> Parsons Driving Jump shot: Missed 11:29<br /> 11:29 Mahinmi Rebound (Off:0 Def:2)<br /> 11:22<br /> [DAL 30-27] Terry 3pt Shot: Made (3 PTS)<br /> Lowry Jump Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: Patterson (1 AST) 11:06<br /> [HOU 29-30]<br /> 10:42 Mahinmi Turnover : Offensive Goaltending (1 TO)<br /> Budinger Driving Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: Patterson (2 AST) 10:33<br /> [HOU 31-30]<br /> 10:33 Terry Foul: Shooting (2 PF)<br /> Budinger Free Throw 1 of 1 Missed 10:33<br /> 10:33 Mahinmi Rebound (Off:0 Def:3)<br /> 10:16<br /> [DAL 33-31] Terry 3pt Shot: Made (6 PTS)<br /> Lowry 3pt Shot: Missed 10:03<br /> 10:03 Terry Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)<br /> 09:51<br /> [DAL 35-31] Mahinmi Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Carter (1 AST)<br /> Budinger Floating Jump shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Lowry (1 AST) 09:33<br /> [HOU 33-35]<br /> 09:19 Nowitzki Jump Shot: Missed<br /> Dalembert Rebound (Off:1 Def:1) 09:18<br /> Parsons 3pt Shot: Missed 08:56<br /> Patterson Rebound (Off:1 Def:0) 08:55<br /> Patterson Running Jump Shot: Missed 08:43<br /> Dalembert Rebound (Off:2 Def:1) 08:43<br /> Dalembert Putback Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS) 08:42<br /> [HOU 35-35]<br /> 08:22<br /> [DAL 37-35] Terry Pullup Jump shot: Made (8 PTS)<br /> Budinger 3pt Shot: Missed 08:10<br /> 08:10 Terry Rebound (Off:0 Def:2)<br /> 08:03<br /> [DAL 39-35] Terry Driving Layup Shot: Made (10 PTS)<br /> Team Timeout : Regular 07:52<br /> 07:52 Mahinmi Substitution replaced by Wright<br /> Parsons Substitution replaced by Lee 07:52<br /> Patterson Jump Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: Lowry (2 AST) 07:44<br /> [HOU 37-39]<br /> 07:21 Beaubois 3pt Shot: Missed<br /> Dalembert Rebound (Off:2 Def:2) 07:20<br /> Lee Pullup Jump shot: Missed 06:57<br /> 06:56 Beaubois Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)<br /> 06:46 Carter 3pt Shot: Missed<br /> Lee Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 06:45<br /> Budinger 3pt Shot: Missed 06:27<br /> 06:26 Terry Rebound (Off:0 Def:3)<br /> 06:09 Nowitzki Pullup Jump shot: Missed<br /> Budinger Rebound (Off:0 Def:2) 06:08<br /> Dalembert Fadeaway Jump Shot: Missed 05:58<br /> Patterson Rebound (Off:2 Def:0) 05:57<br /> Lee 3pt Shot: Missed 05:53<br /> 05:52 Beaubois Rebound (Off:0 Def:2)<br /> Lowry Foul: Shooting Block (2 PF) 05:44<br /> 05:44<br /> 05:44 Nowitzki Substitution replaced by Marion<br /> 05:44 Carter Substitution replaced by Kidd<br /> 05:44 Beaubois Substitution replaced by West<br /> Lowry Substitution replaced by Camby 05:44<br /> Dalembert Substitution replaced by Dragic 05:44<br /> 05:44<br /> [DAL 40-37] Terry Free Throw 1 of 2 (11 PTS)<br /> 05:44<br /> [DAL 41-37] Terry Free Throw 2 of 2 (12 PTS)<br /> Budinger 3pt Shot: Made (7 PTS) Assist: Dragic (5 AST) 05:35<br /> [HOU 40-41]<br /> 05:14 Kidd 3pt Shot: Missed<br /> 05:13 Wright Rebound (Off:1 Def:0)<br /> 05:09 Terry 3pt Shot: Missed<br /> Camby Rebound (Off:1 Def:6) 05:08<br /> Budinger 3pt Shot: Made (10 PTS) Assist: Dragic (6 AST) 05:01<br /> [HOU 43-41]<br /> 04:40 Terry Driving Layup Shot: Missed<br /> 04:39 Wright Rebound (Off:2 Def:0)<br /> 04:27<br /> [DAL 43-43] West Driving Layup Shot: Made (6 PTS) Assist: Kidd (4 AST)<br /> Budinger Foul: Shooting (1 PF) 04:27<br /> 04:27<br /> [DAL 44-43] West Free Throw 1 of 1 (7 PTS)<br /> Lee Driving Layup Shot: Made (8 PTS) 04:09<br /> [HOU 45-44]<br /> 03:49 West Turnover : Bad Pass (2 TO) Steal:Lee (2 ST)<br /> Dragic Turnover : Lost Ball (4 TO) Steal:Marion (1 ST) 03:44<br /> Dragic Foul: Personal (2 PF) 03:44<br /> 03:44 West Substitution replaced by Nowitzki<br /> 03:44 Terry Substitution replaced by Beaubois<br /> Patterson Substitution replaced by Scola 03:44<br /> 03:36 Beaubois Foul: Offensive Charge (1 PF)<br /> 03:36 Beaubois Turnover : Foul (1 TO)<br /> Dragic Turnover : Bad Pass (5 TO) Steal:Marion (2 ST) 03:25<br /> 03:20 Marion Turnover : Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal:Dragic (1 ST)<br /> Dragic 3pt Shot: Made (11 PTS) 03:09<br /> [HOU 48-44]<br /> 03:07 Team Timeout : Regular<br /> 03:07 Wright Substitution replaced by Mahinmi<br /> 02:53<br /> [DAL 46-48] Beaubois Running Jump Shot: Made (2 PTS)<br /> 02:38 Mahinmi Foul: Personal (2 PF)<br /> 02:36 Beaubois Foul: Personal (2 PF)<br /> Lee 3pt Shot: Made (11 PTS) Assist: Dragic (7 AST) 02:30<br /> [HOU 51-46]<br /> 02:10<br /> [DAL 49-51] Kidd 3pt Shot: Made (3 PTS) Assist: Nowitzki (1 AST)<br /> Budinger 3pt Shot: Missed 01:49<br /> 01:48 Beaubois Rebound (Off:0 Def:3)<br /> 01:34 Nowitzki Step Back Jump shot: Missed<br /> Lee Rebound (Off:0 Def:2) 01:34<br /> Camby Jump Shot: Made (6 PTS) Assist: Dragic (8 AST) 01:21<br /> [HOU 53-49]<br /> 01:05<br /> [DAL 52-53] Kidd 3pt Shot: Made (6 PTS)<br /> Scola Jump Hook Shot: Missed 00:53.9<br /> Camby Rebound (Off:2 Def:6) 00:51.9<br /> Camby Tip Shot: Missed 00:51.9<br /> 00:50.6 Beaubois Rebound (Off:0 Def:4)<br /> 00:40.8<br /> [DAL 55-53] Kidd 3pt Shot: Made (9 PTS) Assist: Beaubois (1 AST)<br /> Camby Jump Shot: Missed 00:30.9<br /> Scola Rebound (Off:1 Def:3) 00:30.5<br /> 00:30.5 Mahinmi Foul: Loose Ball (3 PF)<br /> Scola Free Throw 1 of 2 (5 PTS) 00:30.5<br /> [HOU 54-55]<br /> Dragic Substitution replaced by Lowry 00:30.5<br /> 00:30.5 Beaubois Substitution replaced by Terry<br /> 00:30.5 Mahinmi Substitution replaced by Wright<br /> Camby Substitution replaced by Parsons 00:30.5<br /> 00:30.5 Marion Substitution replaced by Carter<br /> Budinger Substitution replaced by Patterson 00:30.5<br /> Scola Free Throw 2 of 2 (6 PTS) 00:30.5<br /> [HOU 55-55]<br /> Parsons Foul: Personal (2 PF) 00:11.3<br /> 00:03.9 Nowitzki Driving Jump shot: Missed Block: Patterson (1 BLK)<br /> Scola Rebound (Off:1 Def:4) 00:02.7<br /> Parsons Driving Jump shot: Missed 00:00.2<br /> Lowry Rebound (Off:1 Def:0) 00:00.1<br /> 00:00.0<br /> <span style="color: #ff0000">End of 2nd Quarter<br /> <br /> Start of 3rd Quarter</span><br /> Scola Jump Shot: Made (8 PTS) 11:38<br /> [HOU 57-55]<br /> 11:17 West Pullup Jump shot: Missed<br /> Parsons Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 11:16<br /> Dragic Driving Layup Shot: Made (13 PTS) 11:06<br /> [HOU 59-55]<br /> 10:50 Kidd Turnover : Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal:Scola (1 ST)<br /> Lee Jump Shot: Missed 10:38<br /> 10:38 Nowitzki Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)<br /> Camby Foul: Loose Ball (2 PF) 10:38<br /> 10:23<br /> [DAL 57-59] Nowitzki Step Back Jump shot: Made (6 PTS)<br /> Scola Foul: Shooting (2 PF) 10:23<br /> 10:23<br /> [DAL 58-59] Nowitzki Free Throw 1 of 1 (7 PTS)<br /> 10:04 Nowitzki Foul: Shooting (2 PF)<br /> Camby Free Throw 1 of 2 (7 PTS) 10:04<br /> [HOU 60-58]<br /> Camby Free Throw 2 of 2 Missed 10:04<br /> 10:04 Marion Rebound (Off:0 Def:2)<br /> 09:48<br /> [DAL 60-60] Nowitzki Jump Shot: Made (9 PTS) Assist: Kidd (5 AST)<br /> Parsons 3pt Shot: Missed 09:30<br /> 09:29 Marion Rebound (Off:0 Def:3)<br /> 09:16 West Step Back Jump shot: Missed<br /> Camby Rebound (Off:2 Def:7) 09:15<br /> Lee Turnover : Bad Pass (2 TO) Steal:Nowitzki (1 ST) 09:07<br /> 09:03 West Turnover : Step Out of Bounds Turnover (3 TO)<br /> Scola Finger Roll Layup Shot: Made (10 PTS) 08:48<br /> [HOU 62-60]<br /> 08:29<br /> [DAL 62-62] West Driving Jump shot: Made (9 PTS)<br /> 08:14 Nowitzki Foul: Shooting (3 PF)<br /> Parsons Free Throw 1 of 2 (6 PTS) 08:14<br /> [HOU 63-62]<br /> Parsons Free Throw 2 of 2 (7 PTS) 08:14<br /> [HOU 64-62]<br /> 07:58 Nowitzki Jump Shot: Missed<br /> 07:56 Haywood Rebound (Off:2 Def:1)<br /> 07:56 Haywood Tip Shot: Missed<br /> 07:55 Haywood Rebound (Off:3 Def:1)<br /> 07:53 Marion Jump Shot: Missed<br /> Parsons Rebound (Off:0 Def:2) 07:52<br /> Lee 3pt Shot: Made (14 PTS) Assist: Parsons (4 AST) 07:45<br /> [HOU 67-62]<br /> 07:43 Team Timeout : Regular<br /> 07:43 Haywood Substitution replaced by Mahinmi<br /> 07:29 West 3pt Shot: Missed<br /> Camby Rebound (Off:2 Def:8) 07:28<br /> Scola Turnaround Hook Shot: Made (12 PTS) Assist: Dragic (9 AST) 07:14<br /> [HOU 69-62]<br /> 06:58 Marion Running Layup Shot: Missed<br /> Dragic Rebound (Off:0 Def:1) 06:56<br /> Scola Jump Bank Shot: Made (14 PTS) Assist: Dragic (10 AST) 06:46<br /> [HOU 71-62]<br /> 06:24<br /> [DAL 64-71] West Pullup Jump shot: Made (11 PTS)<br /> 06:13 Mahinmi Foul: Personal (4 PF)<br /> 06:13 Kidd Substitution replaced by Terry<br /> 06:13 Mahinmi Substitution replaced by Haywood<br /> Scola Jump Shot: Missed 06:03<br /> Parsons Rebound (Off:1 Def:2) 06:01<br /> Parsons Putback Layup Shot: Made (9 PTS) 06:01<br /> [HOU 73-64]<br /> 05:37<br /> [DAL 67-73] Nowitzki 3pt Shot: Made (12 PTS) Assist: West (3 AST)<br /> Parsons 3pt Shot: Missed 05:16<br /> 05:15 Marion Rebound (Off:0 Def:4)<br /> 05:07 Terry Turnover : Bad Pass (2 TO) Steal:Scola (2 ST)<br /> Dragic Driving Layup Shot: Made (15 PTS) Assist: Scola (1 AST) 05:04<br /> [HOU 75-67]<br /> 05:04 West Foul: Shooting (1 PF)<br /> 05:04 Marion Substitution replaced by Carter<br /> Dragic Free Throw 1 of 1 Missed 05:04<br /> 05:03 Nowitzki Rebound (Off:0 Def:2)<br /> 04:43<br /> [DAL 69-75] Nowitzki Driving Layup Shot: Made (14 PTS)<br /> Lee Running Jump Shot: Made (16 PTS) 04:22<br /> [HOU 77-69]<br /> 04:06 Terry Turnover : Bad Pass (3 TO)<br /> Parsons 3pt Shot: Missed 03:46<br /> 03:45 Nowitzki Rebound (Off:0 Def:3)<br /> Dragic Foul: Personal (3 PF) 03:30<br /> Team Timeout : Regular 03:30<br /> 03:30 Nowitzki Substitution replaced by Marion<br /> 03:30 Haywood Substitution replaced by Kidd<br /> 03:30 West Substitution replaced by Wright<br /> Camby Substitution replaced by Lowry 03:30<br /> Dragic Substitution replaced by Patterson 03:30<br /> Scola Foul: Defense 3 Second (2 PF) 03:23<br /> 03:23<br /> [DAL 70-77] Terry Free Throw Technical (13 PTS)<br /> Parsons Substitution replaced by Budinger 03:23<br /> 03:13<br /> [DAL 72-77] Carter Fadeaway Jump Shot: Made (12 PTS)<br /> Budinger 3pt Shot: Missed 02:52<br /> 02:51 Kidd Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)<br /> Lowry Foul: Shooting (3 PF) 02:33<br /> 02:33<br /> [DAL 73-77] Carter Free Throw 1 of 2 (13 PTS)<br /> 02:33<br /> [DAL 74-77] Carter Free Throw 2 of 2 (14 PTS)<br /> Lowry 3pt Shot: Made (5 PTS) 02:16<br /> [HOU 80-74]<br /> 01:55 Carter Driving Jump shot: Missed<br /> Patterson Rebound (Off:2 Def:1) 01:54<br /> Scola Jump Shot: Missed 01:40<br /> 01:39 Marion Rebound (Off:0 Def:5)<br /> 01:33 Terry 3pt Shot: Missed<br /> Scola Rebound (Off:1 Def:5) 01:32<br /> Scola Driving Jump shot: Missed Block: Wright (1 BLK) 01:21<br /> 01:19 Marion Rebound (Off:0 Def:6)<br /> 01:12<br /> [DAL 76-80] Carter Jump Shot: Made (16 PTS)<br /> 00:52.9 Marion Foul: Personal (1 PF)<br /> Scola Free Throw 1 of 2 (15 PTS) 00:52.9<br /> [HOU 81-76]<br /> Scola Free Throw 2 of 2 (16 PTS) 00:52.9<br /> [HOU 82-76]<br /> 00:37.8 Carter 3pt Shot: Missed<br /> 00:35.8 Terry Rebound (Off:1 Def:3)<br /> 00:26.9 Terry 3pt Shot: Missed<br /> Budinger Rebound (Off:0 Def:3) 00:25.9<br /> 00:08.7 Carter Foul: Shooting (1 PF)<br /> Scola Free Throw 1 of 2 (17 PTS) 00:08.7<br /> [HOU 83-76]<br /> 00:08.7 Marion Substitution replaced by Nowitzki<br /> Scola Free Throw 2 of 2 (18 PTS) 00:08.7<br /> [HOU 84-76]<br /> 00:02.9 Carter 3pt Shot: Missed<br /> 00:01.6 Wright Rebound (Off:3 Def:0)<br /> 00:00.2<br /> [DAL 78-84] Wright Jump Shot: Made (2 PTS)<br /> <span style="color: #ff0000">End of 3rd Quarter<br /> <br /> Start of 4th Quarter</span><br /> 11:48<br /> [DAL 80-84] Terry Jump Shot: Made (15 PTS) Assist: Kidd (6 AST)<br /> 11:30 Kidd Foul: Personal (1 PF)<br /> Patterson Slam Dunk Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Camby (1 AST) 11:18<br /> [HOU 86-80]<br /> Patterson Foul: Personal (1 PF) 10:57<br /> 10:43<br /> [DAL 82-86] Carter Driving Jump shot: Made (18 PTS)<br /> Lowry 3pt Shot: Missed 10:27<br /> 10:25 Team Rebound<br /> 10:13 Kidd 3pt Shot: Missed<br /> Camby Rebound (Off:2 Def:9) 10:12<br /> Budinger Pullup Jump shot: Made (12 PTS) Assist: Lowry (3 AST) 10:06<br /> [HOU 88-82]<br /> 09:39<br /> [DAL 85-88] Nowitzki 3pt Shot: Made (17 PTS) Assist: Carter (2 AST)<br /> Lowry Turnaround Fadeaway shot: Made (7 PTS) 09:12<br /> [HOU 90-85]<br /> 08:59<br /> [DAL 88-90] Nowitzki 3pt Shot: Made (20 PTS) Assist: Kidd (7 AST)<br /> Patterson Reverse Layup Shot: Made (6 PTS) Assist: Lowry (4 AST) 08:41<br /> [HOU 92-88]<br /> 08:17<br /> [DAL 90-92] Wright Finger Roll Layup Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Terry (1 AST)<br /> Lowry Driving Jump shot: Missed 07:55<br /> 07:53 Nowitzki Rebound (Off:0 Def:4)<br /> Lowry Foul: Personal (4 PF) 07:46<br /> 07:46<br /> Lowry Substitution replaced by Dragic 07:46<br /> 07:37<br /> [DAL 93-92] Terry 3pt Shot: Made (18 PTS) Assist: Nowitzki (2 AST)<br /> Camby Fadeaway Jump Shot: Missed 07:21<br /> 07:19 Kidd Rebound (Off:0 Def:2)<br /> 07:01<br /> [DAL 96-92] Carter 3pt Shot: Made (21 PTS) Assist: Terry (2 AST)<br /> Team Timeout : Regular 06:55<br /> Parsons Substitution replaced by Lee 06:55<br /> Dragic 3pt Shot: Missed 06:39<br /> 06:38 Carter Rebound (Off:1 Def:1)<br /> Patterson Foul: Shooting (2 PF) 06:22<br /> 06:22 Team Timeout : Short<br /> 06:22<br /> [DAL 97-92] Terry Free Throw 1 of 2 (19 PTS)<br /> Patterson Substitution replaced by Scola 06:22<br /> 06:22 Terry Free Throw 2 of 2 Missed<br /> Camby Rebound (Off:2 Def:10) 06:22<br /> Lee Driving Jump shot: Missed 06:00<br /> Camby Rebound (Off:3 Def:10) 05:58<br /> Camby Putback Layup Shot: Made (9 PTS) 05:58<br /> [HOU 94-97]<br /> 05:32 Terry Driving Jump shot: Missed<br /> 05:31 Carter Rebound (Off:2 Def:1)<br /> 05:31<br /> [DAL 99-94] Carter Putback Dunk Shot: Made (23 PTS)<br /> Lee 3pt Shot: Missed 05:10<br /> 05:09 Wright Rebound (Off:3 Def:1)<br /> 04:47 Nowitzki 3pt Shot: Missed<br /> Camby Rebound (Off:3 Def:11) 04:46<br /> Dragic Turnover : Bad Pass (6 TO) 04:32<br /> 04:13 Nowitzki Step Back Jump shot: Missed<br /> 04:12 Carter Rebound (Off:3 Def:1)<br /> 04:05<br /> [DAL 101-94] Nowitzki Driving Layup Shot: Made (22 PTS) Assist: Kidd (8 AST)<br /> Scola Foul: Shooting (3 PF) 04:05<br /> 04:05<br /> [DAL 102-94] Nowitzki Free Throw 1 of 1 (23 PTS)<br /> Budinger Driving Layup Shot: Made (14 PTS) 03:50<br /> [HOU 96-102]<br /> 03:31 Carter 3pt Shot: Missed<br /> Camby Rebound (Off:3 Def:12) 03:30<br /> Dragic Running Hook Shot: Missed 03:07<br /> Camby Rebound (Off:4 Def:12) 03:06<br /> Camby Tip Shot: Missed 03:06<br /> 03:05 Wright Rebound (Off:3 Def:2)<br /> 02:58 Team Timeout : Regular<br /> 02:57 Carter Turnover : Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal:Dragic (2 ST)<br /> Dragic Driving Layup Shot: Missed 02:53<br /> Dragic Rebound (Off:1 Def:1) 02:52<br /> Dragic Putback Layup Shot: Made (17 PTS) 02:51<br /> [HOU 98-102]<br /> Lee Foul: Personal (2 PF) 02:30<br /> 02:30<br /> [DAL 103-98] Nowitzki Free Throw 1 of 2 (24 PTS)<br /> Budinger Substitution replaced by Lowry 02:30<br /> 02:30<br /> [DAL 104-98] Nowitzki Free Throw 2 of 2 (25 PTS)<br /> Lowry Foul: Offensive Charge (5 PF) 02:17<br /> Lowry Turnover : Foul (1 TO) 02:17<br /> 02:04<br /> [DAL 107-98] Kidd 3pt Shot: Made (12 PTS) Assist: Carter (3 AST)<br /> Lee Driving Finger Roll Layup Shot: Missed 01:50<br /> Camby Rebound (Off:5 Def:12) 01:49<br /> Camby Putback Layup Shot: Made (11 PTS) 01:49<br /> [HOU 100-107]<br /> Scola Foul: Shooting (4 PF) 01:32<br /> 01:32<br /> [DAL 108-100] Nowitzki Free Throw 1 of 2 (26 PTS)<br /> 01:32<br /> [DAL 109-100] Nowitzki Free Throw 2 of 2 (27 PTS)<br /> Team Timeout : Regular 01:32<br /> Dragic 3pt Shot: Made (20 PTS) Assist: Lowry (5 AST) 01:27<br /> [HOU 103-109]<br /> 01:03 Kidd 3pt Shot: Missed<br /> 01:02 Team Rebound<br /> Scola Foul: Personal (5 PF) 01:02<br /> 01:02<br /> [DAL 110-103] Nowitzki Free Throw 1 of 2 (28 PTS)<br /> 01:02<br /> [DAL 111-103] Nowitzki Free Throw 2 of 2 (29 PTS)<br /> Lowry 3pt Shot: Made (10 PTS) 00:55.5<br /> [HOU 106-111]<br /> 00:55.5 Terry Foul: Shooting (3 PF)<br /> Lowry Free Throw 1 of 1 (11 PTS) 00:55.5<br /> [HOU 107-111]<br /> 00:36.9<br /> [DAL 113-107] Nowitzki Layup Shot: Made (31 PTS) Assist: Terry (3 AST)<br /> Team Timeout : Short 00:36.2<br /> Camby Substitution replaced by Budinger 00:36.2<br /> Dragic 3pt Shot: Missed 00:33.9<br /> 00:32.6 Nowitzki Rebound (Off:0 Def:5)<br /> Scola Foul: Personal (6 PF) 00:31.7<br /> Scola Substitution replaced by Parsons 00:31.7<br /> 00:31.7<br /> [DAL 114-107] Nowitzki Free Throw 1 of 2 (32 PTS)<br /> 00:31.7<br /> [DAL 115-107] Nowitzki Free Throw 2 of 2 (33 PTS)<br /> Lowry 3pt Shot: Missed 00:24.9<br /> Parsons Rebound (Off:2 Def:2) 00:23.9<br /> Parsons 3pt Shot: Made (12 PTS) 00:20.9<br /> [HOU 110-115]<br /> Lee Foul: Personal Take (3 PF) 00:20.5<br /> 00:20.5<br /> [DAL 116-110] Nowitzki Free Throw 1 of 2 (34 PTS)<br /> 00:20.5<br /> [<span style="color: #004000">DAL</span> <span style="color: #ff0000">117-110</span>] Nowitzki Free Throw 2 of 2 (35 PTS)<br /> Team Timeout : Short 00:20.5<br /> Parsons Driving Finger Roll Layup Shot: Missed 00:14.9<br /> 00:12.8 Kidd Rebound (Off:0 Def:3)<br /> <span style="color: #ff0000">End of 4th Quarter </span></strong></div> #675 Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:09 AM For the Mavericks, Friday vs. Golden State. April 20,Friday......................Opponent........Time.......Local TV.................Radio. (35-28) Mavericks-vs-Warriors (22-39)....7:30pm CT....FSSW...KESN-FM (103.3), KFLC-AM (1270 in Spanish) American Airlines Center, Dallas,TX. Western...........W-L....PCT.CONF.DIV.HOME.ROAD.L 10.STREAK. Dallas..............35-28.0.556.25-22.8-5.22-10.13-18..5-5...W 1 Golden State..22-39.0.361.15-28.7-8.12-19.10-20..2-8...L 6 #676 Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:09 AM Warriors-Mavericks Preview. By JEFF BARTL. "The Dallas Mavericks need one victory to clinch a playoff berth. A home matchup with the injury depleted Golden State Warriors appears to provide the perfect opportunity. The defending champions look to secure a return to the postseason and send Golden State to its season-high seventh straight loss Friday night at the American Airlines Center. The Mavericks (35-28) snapped a two-game skid with a 117-110 win over Houston on Wednesday, moving them into sixth place in the Western Conference, one-half game ahead of Denver. Dirk Nowitzki got off to a slow start, then scored 21 of his 35 points in the fourth quarter to help Dallas pull away. "We really needed the win and our guys weren't going to let it go," coach Rick Carlisle told the team's official website. Nowitzki has averaged 30.0 points over his last five games. "Dirk put the team on his back," guard Delonte West said. "It's not how you start, it's how you finish. Dirk was a prime example of that." The Mavericks would certainly like to get their ticket to the playoffs punched Friday, as they close the regular season with road games against playoff teams Chicago and Atlanta. Nowitzki's hot stretch started with a 27-point effort in a 112-103 win at Golden State last Thursday, when the Mavericks' bench outscored the Warriors' 57-33. David Lee had a game-high 30 points for Golden State in that contest, but he hasn't played since and has been shut down for the season with a strained groin. The Warriors (22-39) have been without Stephen Curry since he sprained his right ankle March 11, and they were missing Andris Biedrins and Nate Robinson in a 99-87 loss to the Los Angeles Lakers on Wednesday. Golden State has dropped six straight and 13 of 15. "Some would perceive these to be dark days," coach Mark Jackson said. "I believe these are times to build character and hold on to the rope even tighter." Klay Thompson scored a team-high 17 points Wednesday and had 24 in the last meeting with Dallas. He's averaging 18.3 points while starting the last 23 games since Curry's injury, often being guarded by the opposition's top defender. "It's great experience, being doubled, grabbed and getting beaten up," Jackson said. "The great ones ... it's a complement. I think its valuable experience for him." Including Thompson, the Warriors started four rookies Wednesday and will be looking at a similar lineup Friday. Jackson guaranteed a playoff appearance before the season began, but the rash of injuries has contributed to Golden State's problems. A much different-looking Warriors team beat the Mavericks 111-87 on March 10, as Thompson scored 13 points off the bench, but Golden State hasn't had much luck on the road in this series of late. Dallas has won nine of the last 10 home meetings, including postseason." (30,600) #677 Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:10 AM SERIES NOTES: The Mavericks recorded a 112-103 victory in Golden State on 4/12/12 and have now won seven of the last nine meetings with the Warriors. …With the win, the Mavericks snapped a two-game road losing streak against the Warriors and have now taken four of the last six matchups in Oakland. …The Mavericks have gone 7-1 in the last eight matchups with Golden State at American Airlines Center. …Dirk Nowitzki is averaging team highs in points (24.5) and minutes (16.5) in two games against the Warriors this season. …Jason Terry is averaging 15.5 ppg, 4.5 apg and 32.0 mpg…Rodrigue Beaubois is averaging 11.5 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 4.0 apg and 1.5 spg. He had a career night against the Warriors on 3/27/10. He went 9-of-11 from 3-point range en route to a career-high 40 points (15-22 FGs, 9-11 3FGs, 1-1 FTs) to become just the third Maverick rookie to score 40-plus points in a game. …Vince Carter is averaging 9.5 ppg and 24.5 mpg in two games against the Warriors this year. …Jason Kidd finished one point shy of his 108th career triple-double with nine points, a season-high-tying 10 rebounds, a season-high 12 assists, three steals and two blocks in 33 minutes at Golden State on 4/12/12. He rested against the Warriors in the game on 3/10/12. …Brandan Wright had a season-hightying 16 points and a season-high-tying nine boards at Golden State on 4/12/12…He missed the game on 3/10/12 due to a concussion. CONNECTIONS: Mavericks point guard Jason Kidd was born in San Francisco, Calif., and played his high school ball at St. Joseph of Notre Dame in Alameda,Calif….He went on to attend the University of California at Berkeley...Kidd and Warriors forward Richard Jefferson were teammates in New Jersey for seven seasons from 2001-08…They won back-to-back Eastern Conference championships together in 2002 in 2003. …Mavericks guard Vince Carter also played with Jefferson in New Jersey from 2005-08. …Jefferson and Mavericks guard Jason Terry played together at Arizona in 1998-99. …Warriors General Manager Larry Riley was an assistant coach with Dallas from 2000-05. …Mavericks forward Brandan Wright played his first two-and-half seasons with Golden State from 2007-10…He averaged 5.7 points, 3.0 rebounds and 12.8 minutes in 98 games (30 starts) with the Warriors…Wright missed the entire 2009-10 season with left shoulder surgery. …Mavericks forward Brian Cardinal averaged career highs in points (9.6) and rebounds (4.2) in 76 games (11 starts) for the Warriors in 2003-04, his only season with the club. …Carter was originally drafted by Golden State (fifth overall pick) in the 1998 NBA Draft, but was traded to Toronto in exchange for Antawn Jamison…Carter played with Warriors head coach Mark Jackson in Toronto during the 2000-01 season. …Jackson and Mavericks head coach Rick Carlisle were also teammates on the New York Knicks in 1987-88. …Mavericks guard Delonte West and Warriors guard Nate Robinson were teammates in Boston for the first half of the 2010-11 season." MAVERICK'S INJURY/PLAYER STATUS: No injuries. #678 Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:10 AM WARRIOR'S INJURY/PLAYER STATUS: Andrew Bogut (fractured left ankle), Stephen Curry (mild sprain,right ankle) and David Lee (strained groin/stress reaction) are out… Andris Biedrins (mild concussion) and Nate Robinson (right hamstring strain) are day-to-day. ...SERIES...(1-1). 03/10 - DAL 87 @ GSW 111 04/12 - DAL 112 @ GSW 103 04/20 - GSW @ DAL standings w l l10 h a GSW 4th Pacific 22-39..2-8..12-19..10-20. DAL 3rd Southwest 35-28..5-5..22-10..13-18. ppg rpg apg bpg spg GSW Lee 20.1 Lee 9.6 Curry 5.3 Biedrins 1.0 Curry 1.5 ppg rpg apg bpg spg DAL Nowitzki 21.8 Marion 7.4 Kidd 5.5 Wright 1.3 Kidd 1.7 #679 Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:11 AM Western......................W-L PCT GB CONF DIV HOME ROAD L 10 STREAK San Antonio.......1sw 45-16 0.738 0.0 31-13 12-4 25-5 20-11 8-2 W 5 Oklahoma City...2nw 45-17 0.726 0.5 32-12 10-2 25-6 20-11 5-5 W 1 L.A.L......................3x 40-23 0.635 6.0 31-14 9-4 25-7 15-16 7-3 W 1 L.A.C.....................4x 39-24 0.619 7.0 28-19 7-7 23-9 16-15 7-3 L 1 Memphis.............5x 37-25 0.597 8.5 25-22 7-8 23-7 14-18 7-3 W 2 Dallas..................6x 35-28 0.556 11.0 25-22 8-5 22-10 13-18 5-5 W 1 Denver.................7 34-28 0.548 11.5 19-26 4-7 19-13 15-15 6-4 L 1 Phoenix...............8 33-30 0.524 13.0 23-22 9-5 19-12 14-18 6-4 W 1 Utah........................33-30 0.524 13.0 23-23 8-4 22-8 11-22 6-4 W 2 Houston.................32-31 0.508 14.0 21-25 5-8 20-11 12-20 4-6 L 6 Portland..............o 28 35 0.444 18.0 20-25 4-9 20-13 8-22 3-7 L 4 Minnesota..........o 26 38 0.406 20.5 19-27 4-8 13-18 13-20 1-9 W 1 Golden State.......o 22 39 0.361 23.0 15-28 7-8 12-19 10-20 2-8 L 6 Sacramento.........o 20 42 0.323 25.5 15-30 2-10 15-16 5-26 2-8 L 1 New Orleans........o 20 43 0.317 26.0 13-32 3-10 11-22 9-21 7-3 W 1 x-Clinched Playoff Berth | w-Clinched Western Conference | sw-Clinched Southwest Division | o-Eliminated from Playoffs contention. #680 Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:59 AM For the Mavericks, Saturday vs. Bulls. Mavericks-Bulls Preview. By JEFF MEZYDLO. "The final stretch of the regular season has not gone as smoothly as the Chicago Bulls had wanted. Hoping to bounce back from their latest defeat without injured star Derrick Rose, the Bulls try to maintain their grasp on the No. 1 seed in the Eastern Conference with a third consecutive win over the visiting Dallas Mavericks on Saturday night. Chicago's hold on the top seed and home-court advantage throughout the conference playoffs got a little looser with an 83-72 loss at Miami on Thursday to split the four-game season series between the teams. The Bulls (47-16) have a 1 1/2-game lead over the Heat in the East, one in the loss column. Chicago has three games remaining, while Miami has four. "Got to win, got to win," said Bulls guard Richard Hamilton, who was held to six points on 1-of-6 shooting Thursday after scoring 22 in each of the previous two contests. "Just take one game at a time. We have Dallas coming up and we have to figure out a way to win that game." The Bulls likely must try to get that done without Rose for a fourth consecutive game because of a foot injury. Chicago is 17-9 without him during his injury-plagued season, including 3-4 in April. There is a possibility that Rose, averaging 22.5 points and 7.9 assists, could return for Wednesday's game at Indiana. "You deal with it like you deal with it all year," coach Tom Thibodeau said. Third-string point guard John Lucas had a team-high 16 points Thursday as the Bulls shot 35.7 percent and were physically pushed around while scoring their fewest points of the season. "This game will reveal certain things to us, things that need to be corrected, continue to strive for improvement, and we're not going to get caught up in (leads of) 1 1/2 games, 2 1/2 games or whatever," Thibodeau said. "Just keep doing the things we need to do to win, that's all we're focusing on. "We get ready for Dallas." Chicago beat the reigning NBA champs 82-77 at home in the most recent meeting Jan. 20, 2011. Playing without Carlos Boozer and Joakim Noah, the Bulls got 26 points, nine assists and seven rebounds from Rose - the only Chicago player to score in double figures. While Chicago looks to avoid dropping consecutive home games for the first time since a five-game skid March 1-19, 2010, the Mavericks (36-28) hope to avoid a third straight road defeat. Dallas is coming off a pair of home victories after beating Golden State 104-94 on Friday. With two games remaining, the Mavericks are trying to hang on to the sixth seed in the West. "We're playing as a cohesive unit out there," said guard Delonte West, who had 16 points against the Warriors. Dirk Nowitzki averaged 30.0 points in the previous five games before scoring 16 on Friday in the Mavericks' home finale. He's averaged 30.4 points in his last five against the Bulls but finished with 19 on 6-of-16 shooting at Chicago last season." 0 user(s) are reading this topic 0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Hubris and Humility: Christian Perplexity at the Pluralism of Faith by S Parvez Manzoor Dead are theories of racial superiority; dying are notions of cultural exclusivism, but alive and well are claims of religious uniqueness. What is superstition to biology and taboo to anthropology is not anathema to the church. The scientist possesses no value-judgment, the academic shuns it but the man of faith lives for his values. To his opponents, he is a norm unto himself, an incarnation of his own supreme value, hubris. Self-worship not self-denial, they charge, is the hallmark of religious faith. Submission to the call of a higher authority, however, is the essence of faith. No religious consciousness is worthy of its name if it does not humble itself before the Other. In the realm of faith, the Other commands and the self obeys; Other is the Lord and self is the servant. Humility, then, lies at the heart of religion and gives sustenance to the life of faith. Hence, if faith is its own mistress, it also rides an unruly and recalcitrant conscience. Perhaps no other religious tradition is as plagued by the paradox of humility and hubris as the church of Rome which is (was) both imperial and catholic. And no other contemporary thinker testifies to the resources and constraints of the Catholic intellect and conscience as the Swiss theologian and clergymen, Hans Küng. For, despite his banishment (In 1979, over a row on the question of infallibility, Rome withdrew its license (missio canonica) and denied Küng the right to teach as a Catholic theologian), Hans Küng has pursued without interruption his academic career at the university of Thbingen. He has also continued to behave as ‘a priest of the Ecclesia catholica’ and ‘teach the Christian truth in Catholic breadth and depth’. Nor does Küng have, even after a lapse of 15 years, any compunctions about describing his life’s mission as ‘the teaching of the Catholic doctrine as a Catholic priest.’ A man of immense erudition, energy and humanity, Hans Küng, more than any other German-speaking theologian, has been instrumental in shaping the English-speaking world’s perceptions of the Catholic faith. In fact, Küng’s theological and moral reflections extend far beyond his ecclesiastical concerns. Despite his estrangement from the Church, he has taken upon himself the role of the intellectual spokesman of Catholic Christianity and conducted on this basis a series of very intense and earnest dialogues with all the major challengers to the Catholic doctrine, viz. philosophy, science, ethics, Judaism and other non-Christian faiths. His creativity, vigour and endurance have been truly amazing. He is as prolific as he is profound and original. The volume, Hans Küng: New Horizon for Faith and Thought, was dedicated to Küng in 1993 when he celebrated his sixty-fifth birthday. It is not a Festschrift in the customary manner, nor does it provide to the uninitiated reader an introduction to his life and thought. On the contrary, it is a very erudite and demanding book which presupposes familiarity not only with Küng’s own works but also with the debate that surrounds them. As a ‘workbook’, it probes, with rigour and profundity, the wider theological, philosophical, ethical and anthropological implications of Küng’s faith and teachings and thus provides the serious student a convenient entry point to the contemporary debate in Christianity. Despite its omission of certain articles and the abbreviation of the complete bibliography that appeared in the original German edition, the present volume does supply the English reader with a more than adequate and relevant list of Hans Küng’s writings. The structure of the book follows Küng’s own intellectual itinerary and contains the following signposts: ‘Church; Catholicity; The Ecumenical World [the common Christian umma]; Christology and the Doctrine of God [Trinity, Incarnation etc.]; Dialogues with Judaism; World Religions; and Effects [Cross-cultural dialogue].’ The editors liken the plan of the book to ‘seven concentric circles’ where one progressively moves outward from the centre (the church) to Catholicity, to Christian unity, to dialogues with Judaism and other religions, till one reaches the outermost edge, the non-religious world. Notwithstanding the high intellectual calibre of the individual pieces, it goes without saying that much of what the volume contains is not of interest to the Muslim reader. Indeed, some of it is incomprehensible as well! By contrast, the only Muslim contribution, by Abdoljavad Falaturi, is relatively slim and meagre in form (9 pages) but incommensurably richer in substance and meaning. Besides being a critical survey of the contemporary religious and theological debate in which Hans Küng’s thought serves as the pivot, the book has another, more practical, aim: ‘the rehabilitation of Hans Küng as a Catholic theologian’! It is in this regard that such human sentiments, nay passions, are unabashedly made public as: “Küng’s theology has drawn and still draws on the seed-bed of his own church, in which - much to the sorrow of some of his opponents - he has put down viable roots.” Otherwise, there are petitions to the supreme authority of the Church: “Holy Father!... We appeal to your responsibility and your conscience: make good a wrong that has been done! Do not leave the rehabilitation of Küng to history! Make your personal action a blessing for the church!”. Even to the outsider, however, the following rhetorical question, posed by Heinrich Fries, is not without significance: “Is the Catholic church so narrow that it cannot tolerate a man like Küng, or is it so rich that it can dispense with him?” Not all the topics treated in this immensely rich and rewarding work, it has been suggested earlier, merit the Muslim reader’s close attention. Quite exceptional, then, is the solitary but sterling contribution by Abdoljavad Falaturi which reflects on the problem of ‘Christian Theology and the Western Understanding of Islam’. To start with, Falaturi’s immediate response to Hans Küng’s recent work, Christianity and World Religions (English edition: Collins, London, 1987; paperback re-issue by SCM Press, London, 1993) which claims to be a ‘dialogue with Islam’ is that ‘it is not a dialogue with Islam but with Islamic scholars’ (Exclusively Western but most notably Josef van Ess). Hans Küng, in other words, has yet to carry out his dialogue with Islam. His forthcoming book on Islam, one feels, should give an indication of whether Küng intends to encounter ‘Islam’ through the mediation of a living Muslim scholar or whether he will continue to rely on his Orientalist mentors. Falaturi, on his part, does not deliver a critique of Küng’s book, or dwell on its individual faults. Instead, he concentrates on its ambition to act ‘as a model example of both an apt Western understanding of Islam and a well-disposed Christian theological position on it.’ Unfortunately, the basic moral prerequisites of a ‘dialogue of religions and cultures’, namely ‘the attempt to understand conversation partners as they understand themselves’ and, on a religious level, the inner preparedness ‘to concede that the love and mercy of God is also to be found among those of other faiths and is not present only among those who share one’s own beliefs’, are not always present in Western/Christian responses to Islam. Far more pervasive are cultural and emotional factors, the negative attitudes towards each other from the starting point, which render every Christian-Muslim dialogue a truly daunting experience. Even more problematic and frustrating is the situation on the academic, particularly theological, level. For, Falaturi makes it perfectly clear that ‘in their present form and status the phenomenology of religion and comparative religion are a specifically Western achievement, and the scientific vocabulary developed to this end is not value-neutral. The necessary concepts, propositions and arguments have been derived predominantly from Christian theology and Western spiritual life or have been oriented on new forms of it.’ (His italics. One may further underscore this point by noting that one of the ‘classics’ of phenomenology of religion, Rudolf Otto’s paradigmatic The Idea of the Holy (First published in 1917; English translation published by Oxford University Press, 1923, Re-issue, Pelikan Books, 1959) appears, to the unconditioned Muslim reader at least, as an undisguised apology of the Christian doctrine. Indeed, even later phenomenolgists are not free from the Christian bias. See our review of W.C. Smith’s What is Scripture? in MWBR, XIV:4 (Summer 1994), pp 3-8.) The main problem of the dialogue, and the logical starting-point of any phenomenological discussion, Falaturi believes, should be the realization that religious phenomena and religious experiences do not belong to easily transferable mental categories. Hence, due recognition must be given to the fact that Christianity and Islam present two different models of faith, each of which has its own significant claim. Falaturi then delineates his own phenomenological portrait of Islam as ‘the firm conviction that the revealed guidance corresponds as a light to that “orientation on God” which God has given on their way to human beings, as the only vehicles of the divine Spirit, by their justly created nature (fitra), is of decisive significance for the Islamic system of faith; here is a consistent correspondence between creation and revelation. So guidance is not something forced on human beings from outside. Rather, within the framework of divine mercy it is a necessity without which human being will not be in a position to attain the highest goal, the presence of God.’ The point, quite simply is that Guidance as God’s mercy is to Islam what divine love and salvation are to Christianity. ‘Neither of them’, he asserts further, ‘can be transferred to the other.’ According to Falaturi, these fundamental phenomenological difference entail that apart from the completely irreconcilable christologies of Islam and Christianity, even other central concepts such as scripture, faith, religion, prophecy etc. take on different meanings. Thus, while scripture in Christian theology largely looses its significance under the shadow of Jesus, in Islam, as a manifestation of God’s mercy and guidance ‘it represents the possibility of being addressed directly by God and thus of experiencing God consciously anew.’ Another point of capital importance in any Christian-Muslim dialogue is the fundamental rejection of the biblical accounts of prophecy on the part of the Qur’an which, in Falaturi’s opinion, ‘should give a historian freed from the pressures of apologetics occasion to revise the ill-considered thesis that the Qur’an is written off by the Bible.’ Consistent with the phenomenological and dialogical sensitivity is Falaturi’s observation that Islamic theology has developed no vocabulary for a scientific assessment of other religions. Regrettably, he notes further, Muslim theologians are not fully cognizant of the otherness of Christian theology, ‘which to the present has spread its wings into all the humanities.’ Nor do they have any inkling of its spiritual power, its scope and its massive involvement with the dynamics and problems of the secular world. Hence, not only with a view to a fruitful dialogue but also in its own interest, even if purely academic, Islamic theology need to enter a new scientific phase and familiarize itself with Christian theology. Few thinking Muslims will, of course, dispute this conclusion. Even if Hans Küng’s pioneering work Christianity and the World Religions, concludes Falaturi, is not a dialogue in that there is no conversation in it with the living representatives of Islam, it does have an attraction of its own: Islam - seen from outside - is presented in the categories of Western thought and there are reflections on it from the perspective of Christian theology. Thus, ‘despite all the resentment that Muslims may nurse at such an attempt, the achievement and significance of the work remains undisputed.’ The disturbing aspects of the study emanate not so much from the perception of Hans Küng the Catholic theologian as from that of Hans Küng the representative of Western Machtmensch who declares without the least compunction: ‘But let us admit that Islam continues for us primarily alien, politically and economically more threatening than Hinduism or Buddhism, and at any rate a phenomenon which we find it difficult to understand.’ To this Falaturi gives the following, thoughtful yet unambiguous, retort: ‘How can a Hindu, a Buddhist, or in particular a Muslim dialogue partner carry on a serious dialogue when they know from the beginning that in the eyes of the Christian participant they are seen as “threatening” or even very threatening? For what reason is the dialogue now being carried out? To diminish the threat? Is that an aim of the dialogue? And who is threatened and for what reasons? In this way, will not any basis for a dialogue on equal footing be ruled out right from the start?’ It is obvious that in Küng’s dialogue with Islam much more than mere theological sensibility is at stake. The problem of the rapacious ethic of industrial society, and its viability in a truly universal system, also looms large in his vision. He is further distressed by the possibility that Muslim opposition to Western science and technology may create a permanent rift between North and South. That the Islamic commitment also entails active struggle against all forms of oppression and injustice causes him merely parochial worries. Thus, Falaturi is obliged to point out most emphatically that Islam as a religious system does not represent any anti-Western propensity. Rather, the thrust of its revival is directed against the pseudo-values of the permissive modern culture which Küng himself describes as ‘inappropriate both for Islam and Christianity.’ Despite everything, however, both Küng and Falaturi appear to be in agreement that the common challenge for Christian and Islamic theology lies in creating, within the matrix of ‘a new ecumenical paradigm of secularity viewed against a religious background’, a third way between ‘either’ and ‘or’. There can be no doubt that Abdoljavad Falaturi’s intense reflection on the intellectual and spiritual context of Muslim-Christian dialogue is both sensitive and bold. He has responded to Hans Küng’s initiative at the Christian-Muslim dialogue with energy, creativity and humanity. From now on, every future effort to extend the scope of this dialogue is under obligation to take into account the full import of Falaturi’s vision. One of the most vigorous challenges to Hans Küng’s theology, unnegotiably committed to upholding the ‘uniqueness’ of Jesus, comes from the members of ‘the pluralistic theology of religions’ group. In their opinion, Küng’s view presents an insurmountable obstacle for the Christian dialogue with other religions. The most audible, and cogent, voice in this critical chorus is that of John Hick, even if such esteemed thinkers as Wilfred Cantwell Smith also belong to the pluralist school. The challenge of the pluralistic theology is best expressed by the metaphor ‘crossing the theological Rubicon’. It should be understood, according to Paul Kittner, as: ‘To cross it means to recognize clearly, unambiguously, the possibility that other religions exercise a role in salvational history that is not only valuable and salvific but perhaps equal to that of Christianity; it is to affirm that there may be other saviours and revealers besides Jesus Christ. It is to admit that if other religions must be fulfilled in Christianity, Christianity must, just as well, find fulfilment in them.’ The Anglican John Hick is even more outspoken in his advocacy of a God-centered rather than a Christ-centered faith: ‘The Idea of the Trinity and the two natures of Christ are in fact incomprehensible to most people. In comparison, a non-traditional Christian faith can be genuinely simple and yet profound. Consider the belief that there is an ultimate Reality which is the source and ground of everything; that this Reality is benign in relation to human life; that the universal presence of this Reality is reflected (‘incarnated’) in human terms in the lives of the world’s great spiritual leaders; and that among these we have found Jesus to be our principal revelation of the Real and our principal guide for living.’ (The Metaphor of God Incarnate, p 163) The pluralist objection is motivated by ethical considerations and emanates from a utopian vision of a world community of faith(s). From this perspective, the idea that Christianity, or even biblical faiths, have a monopoly on religious truth, proclaims the feminist theologian Rosemary Radford Ruether, ‘is an outrageous and absurd religious chauvinism.’ Other objectors, such as Gregory Baum, have argued that Küng’s stress on the centrality and uniqueness of Jesus, his ideological ‘rhetoric of exclusion’, favours a division of the world into ‘Christians’ and ‘non-Christians’ and that this language affects the way the church thinks and treats ‘outsiders.’ Indeed, it makes the church ‘vulnerable to evil’. Baum also refers to the persecution of the Jews as a classic example of this ‘rhetoric of exclusion.’ Küng has been criticized even on historical grounds in that his assertion about the uniqueness of Jesus cannot be substantiated by the exercise of the historical method. Kenneth Brewer has summed up the whole pluralist debate in ‘The Uniqueness of Christ and the Challenge of the Pluralist Theology of Religions’ (Kuschel and Häring: pp 198-215). Indeed, he has recapitulated Küng’s basic argument and even tried to defend his exclusivist position. Neither the Küng’s argument, nor Brewer’s defence, however, are sufficiently alert to the philosophical antinomy of ‘history’ and ‘norm’, the clash between historical reflection and the determination of standards of truth and value, which was introduced in the Christian debate by Ernst Troeltsch and which since then has continued to plague Christian reason. Indeed, the Church’s main argument against Küng’s Christology, articulated by Cardinal Höffner, has been precisely this, namely that Küng’s method ‘from below’ and his emphasis upon functional categories reduced Christ’s uniqueness to that of any religious reformer! Further, Küng’s reasons for postulating the uniqueness of Jesus and his comparisons with other founders of religion are so schematic and slanted that these can only be accepted as statements of faith. By no means do they count as ‘facts of history.’ (Needless to say, Küng is outrageously perverse in the case of Islam and envisions the mission of the Prophet as ‘world conquest’ and the establishment of an ‘expansionist state’!) The unconventional Festschrift dedicated to Hans Küng is thus a conventional example of Christian hubris, just as John Hick’s The Metaphor of God Incarnate is that of its humility. Earlier, Hick had acquired instant notoriety by presenting a collective work, The Myth of God Incarnate (SCM Press, London, 1977), which asserted that the conception of Jesus as God incarnate, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity living a human life, is mythological, and hence, cannot be accepted as literal truth. Though the book did not say anything that the biblical scholars had not already discussed in learned journals, its popular format and combative posture did help generate a lot of controversy. The present volume sums up the earlier debate and presents its argument against literalism with scholarly calm and ecumenical pathos. The impartial Muslim reviewer may sum the main insight of ‘de-incarnationist’ theology as the, belated, realization that the Jewish expression ‘son of God’ is metaphoric, that it denotes no ontological relationship, no participation by the person so named in the divine nature. Rather, it connotes a moral state. The doctrine of incarnation, then, represents a transformation of the Jewish (monotheistic) moral metaphor into a Greek (polytheistic) metaphysical theory. Moreover, none of what the Church proclaimed of Jesus, according to Hick, would have been acceptable, indeed even comprehensible, to him. In short, Hick wants to give up some of the historical, and historicising, ‘truths’ of the Christian tradition for the recovery of the Transcendent. Lest some Muslims misconstrue Hick’s revisionist theology as a rehabilitation of the Qur’anic criticism of incarnationist Christianity, it is merely proper to point out that his excessive emphasis on religious pluralism, and his Ibn-‘Arabian language of Transcendent Reality, smacks more of existential pantheism than of the Qur’anic transcendentalism. For the Muslim reader, however, Hick’s book is particularly informative, and instructive, of the historical and ideational matrix within which primitive Christianity’s radical departure from Hebrew monotheism took place. For the Muslim, far more challenging than Christian hubris and far more encouraging than Christian humility is the prospect of a radical ethical discourse on our common humanity. Hans Küng’s pioneering effort at the formulation of a global ethic, no matter how tentative and how problematic, deserves to be lauded and supported by the Muslim. The declaration, presented in Küng’s and Kuschel’s edited volume, A Global Ethic, was formally adopted by ‘the Parliament of World’s Religions’ in September 1993. Of course, to the votaries of political realism it appears as hopelessly utopian and naive document. And yet, though one may squabble about its legality, one may question the legitimacy of the adopting body, one may raise a thousand objections against its individual provisions, one cannot disclaim its need. The goal of a universal Gemeinschaft may be far, and it may even turn out to be a mirage, but the path leading to it has to be trodden. The discourse of Global Ethic may be taken as a humble step on that path and a conscientious movement in that direction. The motivation for a universal ethic is quite simple. Everyone recognizes that we are already living within the world wide web of a global society (Weltgesellschaft), though as yet there are no signs of a universal community (Weltgemeinschaft). Our reality, which is increasingly shaped by world politics, world technology, world economy and world civilization cannot therefore do without a world ethic. In utopian discourse, the terminology itself causes problems: Global Ethic (not ‘ethics’ as it refers to the system or the ‘science’ of morals) represents the English counterpart to the German ‘Weltethos’ and the French ‘éthique planétaire’) and conveys the idea of universal norms of conduct in a global society. However, according to its proponents, a global ethic means neither a global ideology, nor a single global religion that transcends all existing religions, nor a syncratic amalgam of all religious traditions. Nor does a global ethic, assures Hans Küng, seek to replace the high ethics of the individual religions with an ethical minimalism. Prior to the presentation of his draft, Küng also realized that the declaration of a global ethic must neither be a duplicate of the United Nations’ ‘Universal Declaration of Human Rights’, nor a casuistic moral sermon, nor a philosophical treatise, nor a religious proclamation, nor indeed a political manifesto. In substance, the Declaration makes ‘a fundamental demand that every human being must be treated humanely’ and affirms ‘commitment to a culture of non-violence’, ‘commitment to a culture of solidarity and a just economic order’, ‘commitment to a culture of toleration and a life of truthfulness’, and ‘commitment to a culture of equal rights and partnership between men and women.’ It avoids programmes of social and political action but accepts the fundamentally political category of citizenship when it remonstrates that ‘no person should ever be considered or treated as a second-class citizen’! It certainly lives up to its promise of being concise, intelligible and inspiring. Significantly, no dissent was ever expressed concerning its desirability and need, just as its opening statement that ‘Every human being must be treated humanely’ met with universal approval. For all its shortcomings, it represents a significant declaration of the ethical intent of our age. A sober Muslim critique of its contents may come later, an active Muslim involvement has to be immediate. Hans Küng also situates this quest for a global ethic within the social and cultural context of ‘potmodernity’ and its key themes: ‘polycentrism, war and peace, critique of civilization, the women’s movement, the ecumenical movement’ etc. His own kulturkritik thus highlights the following issues: - Science, but not wisdom to prevent the misuse of scientific research. - Technology, but no spiritual energy to bring the unforeseeable risks of a highly-efficient macrotechnology under control. - Industry, but no ecology which might fight against the constantly expanding economy. - Democracy, but no morality which could work against the massive interests of various individuals and groups in power. To an outsider, however, much of this criticism appears gratuitous, especially so when one realizes that Hans Küng has no policies to recommend but that he is content with the annunciation of a nondescript ethic as a ‘solution’ to the above mentioned malaise! What evidence is there to suggest, however, that the world becomes a better place when men of cloak, or turban, take the helm? It is in this spirit that the Muslim sensitivity may finally be given vent. The Muslim is not opposed to utopian schemes, nor is he averse to the formulation of any global ethic. He may endorse all these and yet be discontent. It is because his moral conscience demands more than a world ethic; it longs for world-order. For, to have an ethic is also to get involved - willy-nilly - with politics and with the questions of power and responsibility. Who has power over technology and hence bears the responsibility of letting it play havoc with our lives? Who owns the industry that destroys our habitat? Who preaches democracy but practices no morality? These are the questions which the Muslim would like to interject into the discourse of world ethic. There is no doubt that in working for a common humanity, in dreaming about a universal Gemeinschaft, in dealing with both the hubris and humility of Christianity, the Muslim will find Hans Küng a formidable and charitable partner. Works Discussed in this Essay: ———————————————————————————————————————— HANS KÜNG: New Horizons for Faith and Thought. Ed. by Karl-Josef Kuschel & Herman Häring. SCM Press Ltd, 26-30 Totenham Road, London N1 4BZ, 1993. Pp 402. £25.00 (HB). ISBN 0-334-02546-X. A GLOBAL ETHIC: The Declaration of the Parliament of the World’s Religions. Ed. by Hans Küng & Karl-Josef Kuschel. SCM Press Ltd, 26-30 Totenham Road, London N1 4BZ, 1993. Pp 124. £5.95. ISBN 0-334-02561-3. THE METAPHOR OF GOD INCARNATE. By John Hick. SCM Press Ltd, 26-30 Totenham Road, London N1 4BZ, 1993. Pp 180. £9.95. ISBN 0-334-02541-9. 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We made some home made finger paint today and had great fun with our little group of Mums and tots with babies as young as 6 months getting involved in the action! It’s totally edible (though not that delicious!) and completely non-toxic, and the best part is it was so easy to make and will last! This is the recipe ( I googled a few, found the common denominator and went from there): * 2 cups of corn flour (corn starch in the US I think) * 1 cup of cold water * 4.5 cups of boiling water * Liquid food colouring Method: Mix the cornflour with the cold water and stir together. Pour in the boiling water and stir between each cup. It goes really strange (you are basically mixing a hot oobleck goop) but keep stirring and it literally seems to “melt” into a wonderful, custard-like consistency. We then separated it into individual jam jars before adding colouring, but you can do it however you like and this is the stage to add colour. Edited to add: Some people have found that the paint remains liquid and doesn’t thicken up as it should. I have no idea why this should be, but I have two possible solutions, based on the fabulous commenters below! 1. Try simply adding up to 1 more cup of cornflour/ cornstarch and see if that helps to thicken it. 2. Try mixing the paint in a pan on a medium heat instead of just in a bowl, as that will help to bring it together. It’s always frustrating posting recipes that work brilliantly when you try them yourself, but for some reason don’t work for everyone! I can only assume it’s down to slight change in ingredients used and perhaps how the directions are followed. Do try it as it is LOVELY stuff! Thanks C helped me to spoon this into the jars and she absolutely LOVED every minute of the whole process! I added a squeeze of colouring to each jar and then between us we mixed them up. During mixing they looked fabulous! And the finished paints look like a little work of art Almost too good to paint with…but not quite. All lined up and ready for action. I put in some thick paint brushes for the toddlers but expected babies to use their fingers. They seemed to understand that perfectly Baby Boy is 6 months and this was his first little painting. We weren’t sure how impressed he was! Kiddies getting stuck in and a couple more crawling on the floor, waiting for their turns! That’s more like it baby Boy, get those fingers in and give it a good squish! J having a whale of a time! Big boy N knows how to paint properly! Someone got a tad possessive of all “her” paints. “Dey Mines!” And then we introduced edible finger paint number 2! Chocolate and strawberry Angel Delight pudding mixes (although these were actually a Sainsbury’s Basics range for 7p each!) We just mixed the powder with milk and whisked it until lovely and thick, then put it on the table for them to touch and add to their paintings. There was no added food colouring, but lovely brown, chocolatey messiness everywhere nonetheless Baby J was very interested in the chocolate pudding goo! Who can blame him?! It’s important to use ALL of the senses when exploring! Yum yum! And C did a little bit of mark-making with a fork through the lovely, thick, gloopy mess. Little Pop found the brush very tasty and had her fair share of pudding paint too. This activity is good for: * involving all ages of children * creativty and expression * using fingers and tools to do mark-making * exploring the senses and discovering new textures * knowledge and understanding of the world: following a recipe, mixing and stirring, combining materials and mixing colours * gross and fine motor skills (mixing the colours into the paint was hard work!) We have another home made paint recipe to share tomorrow! Enjoy messy, creative, fun! Great messy fun! Love the fact that u dont need to worry about it going in their mouths too.Adele x Love it! A great (outdoor?) birthday party activity idea! What is cornflour to you? Is it ground corn, which we in the states call corn meal? Or corn starch? I think you mean corn starch, which is a little different. Is it a very powdery white substance with a gritty feel? The recipe I’m reading calls for corn starch and that would produce the consistency, look, and feeling described in this activity. Corn starch has a powdery thick feeling not gritty. Hi Anon! I think it is corn starch although on Googling it it seems they are slightly different. But both work as a thickening agent so I’m guessing the starch will work in exactly the same way. Our corn flour has the exact appearance of ordinary flour. Hope it works and I’m sure it will! How fun! I have been looking for something to do with my 2 year old while my 4 year old is at school! Thanks for the idea! What great fun! I will definitely give it a go! Love all the pics too! Kerri Anonymous, cornflour is cornmeal in the US. Anna, those paints look delicious! What lovely bright colours and I can see from the photos what a fab consistency they were. How great for the babies to get stuck in with the older kids. Katy is often muscling in on Max’s play, and she isn’t always welcome! This is a nice idea for encouraging Max to include his sis. Nooooo, cornmeal is polenta! Cornflour is the same as cornstarch. Hope you make some Sarah! It’s great for messy play The words vary a lot by region. In Australia the cornflour sold in supermarkets can be made of wheat or corn. When it is made of corn it is the equivalent of what US recipes call corn starch. Usually you have to look at the ingredients to know if it is wheat or corn based cornflour. I think this might go some way to explaining why the recipe works for some and not others, they may actually be using a different product. I think the wheat cornflour needs a bit more heating before it thickens up. I did love doing this activity it was great fun. However, how long do you feel you should stay on this activity for the only reason I ask is because my daughter appears to have a short concentration span is this normal for one year olds? your daughter looked like she would be happy doing this all day. Hi Bella! Thanks for your comment and I’m glad she enjoyed it. `i would say that a 1-2 year old has a very short attention span and probably will only want to do things for 5-10 minutes at the most. But they tend to like to come back to the same activity and repeat it over and over. As adults we find this frustrating but it’s how they learn! My girl is 2 and a half and is more interested in some things than others. She could probably paint/ stick/ play with play dough for well over half an hour, but that’s only a recent development and she tends to flit between things to try them out. Exactly what I needed for my 7 m/o nephew, thanks!Found via Oh my oh my!! How fun!!! Looks just perfect for the little ones! Clever idea! Maggy(thanks for linking up to Kids Get Crafty) oh we can go through the finger paint. How fun that I can make some new paint with stuff I have in my cabinets. Thanks for the recipe! Yummy! ha ha… what a Fab idea! I’d love to have you share at my For the Kids Friday Link Party! I’m sure you’ll find some fun ideas while you are there! Come join the fun! What a GREAT idea! I have been letting my 17 month old paint lately and he ALWAYS wants to eat it – I will be trying this out today! Thanks for the wonderful idea!! I just can’t get over the pics. To cute! Thanks so much for sharing this at For the Kids Friday at Sun Scholars! rachel @ SunScholars.blogspot.com How long will this last? Hello “Anon” I think out of the fridge no more than a couple of days. In the fridge maybe a week at a guess? I think ours was best the day we made it, and it was best at being a sensory play material rather than long-lasting paint. Lots of fun though! Cute Idea! I repinned it on pintrest. I love this! all those cute chubby hands in the squishy paint is too cute! I am going to do this with my 2 year old soon! hello! thanks for the post. i’d need some follow-up, finally could you store it in the fridge? and for how long? sorry, i didn’t make it through with the comments.. now i see, you already answered to the same question No problem at all! Ours didn’t keep very long in the end. Maybe only a day or two? Use it up with lots of messy play! wow great idea thank you my grandchildren will love this and very welcome as half term is coming up … happy crafting and love sandy xx Great idea, do you think the food colouring stains? i’m thinking in the bath or on the kitchen floor… thx I love this idea. I really want to try finger painting with my 13 month old and this recipe sounds great. Any as ConsciousMama asked, does it stain? He doesn’t really have any “grungy” clothes so I’m a little worried about the food colouring dying his clothes? Has anyone found out if it stains yet? I tried making this, following the directions exactly, but for some reason the consistency was pure liquid…I tried adding more corn starch, but that didn’t help. Suggestions? Thanks so much! Hi Lauren, that is really weird! You did use hot water right? It should thicken just like it would if you added the cornflour to stock to thicken it for gravy or to a stew to thicken it. Mine was the same, just zap it in the microwave for 30-40 secs and give it a good stir before it becomes a big lump! We tried this today with our mothers group of 8 month olds. It was a moderate success, but still a little too advanced. My little boy did enjoy eating it and throwing it however! ) Lauren – mine was liquid until about 2 mins of stirring and then it turned thick and custard like all of a sudden. I thought I had stuffed up but then it turned. The food colouring did stain – skin, clothing everything! – but we thought this would be the case and had all the bubs in disposable nappies and naked – it is summer here in Australia! Storage: I made it last night and stored in the fridge overnight. It went solid overnight but all I needed to do was add a little more boiling water and give it a good stir and it went back again. It wasn’t as good as the fresh stuff however. I would advise making this the same day as you need it and not storing it. Lauren I’m sorry to hear that! I don’t know what to say as ours was so waxy and custard-like. If anything I’d have thought people may find it to thick, not too thin Perhaps follow Stephanie’s (great!) advice and try stirring it for longer? It feels like you are mixing up goop, but with hot water. AS your stir it begins to get more and more thick. Were you using a flour like substance ? Corn starch? Over here it is Corn flour but in the US it;s cornstarch? Sorry not to help more! I used a cup less boiling water and a cup more corn starch (or there about) and it was perfect. I know it’s no longer edible, but to color it I used the ends of my tubes of crayola finger paint. I had just a little left of each color. No staining and way cheaper!! Great idea. Brilliant and well done for making it work! Thank you for this! Mine turned out a bit on te runny side, so I just shook a bit more cornflour into it, it got thicker as it cooled too. I made a stencil with a dozen little Christmas trees on it, coloured the paint a darkish green, and stirred in some gold edible lustre dust to give it a sheen… Paint smeared over the stencil onto card underneath, and my baby girlhas made her first Christmas cards! Thank you for showing me that messy is doable with a baby! that sounds SO wonderful!! My solution to a runny mixture was to cook it on the stove for a few minutes, just like custard perfect solution! This comment has been removed by a blog administrator. Thanks for the great post!I made this just now. It was briljant! Allthough it was less silky than yours. I used a cup more corn flour and it was perfect! Our 12 month old was particularly keen on eating it.. So we ended up with a blueish, cyanotic lipped boy;) Oops!! But glad it worked out well! Mr 1 loved this goopy paint. We only used one cup cornflour, one cup cold water, then just added boiling water and whisked until it seemed a good consistency. We used food colouring for some colours, cocoa for brown, and a few drops of non-toxic acrylic paint for others. Looked like a ridiculous amount for one boy, but he used it all up smearing on paper, cardboard, himself…… Very cheap entertainment. So glad it worked out for you and very good ideas for the other colourings! This is a really great idea! We’ll have to try this recipe next. We just posted about fingerpainting with banana pudding. My little ones loved it! us out! I linked your website on our blog since we tried out one of your finger paint recipes! Thank you for the fun idea -lifeasawife thank you! I did some yoghurt finger paiting and linked to this post as I mentioned your recipe, thanks Thanks Elsie! I just tried this and it’s pure liquid I followed the instructions exactly and even used less water…darn!! darn it indeed!! so frustrating. Sorry. Did you cook it for longer to see if it would come together? I started making this by following the exact recipe but by the 2nd cup of boiling water it was pure liquid so I stopped the water, added more corn starch and some flour until thicker and then let it cool in the fridge for a couple hours. Then added more flour to thicken. Still wasn’t custardy all the way through but was thick enough to paint and my 7month old LOVED the feel of the cool mushy paint. She cried when I tried to end the activity so I let her paint her high chair tray for awhile too. It all washed off (no stains) and she had a blast!! Thanks for posting this recipe!! Loved seeing your pictures too! Glad you were able to adapt it to make it work! This is the one recipe that people have had to do that with the most. I think cornstarch/ cornflour is partly to blame! (but wish i could work out why!) yeah this stuff leaves stains on everything it want come off!!! Oh no! Very sorry to hear it. Too much colouring? That didn’t happen to us at all, so sorry! This may be my all time favorite paint to use with the kids. Super easy to make. It’s edible (and non-toxic). A great tactile experience. By far the easiest paint project to clean up on the boys and everything else. The boys played with this stuff forever. Will be making this a lot! I didn’t read through all of the comments so this may have been asked already. Does the food dye not stain their hands? What a fabulous website with great ideas. Going to try this one today! We made edible finger paint using plain yogurt for our 14-month old. Worked really well: I never thought of involving babies to paint! I think I will add some food coloring to my 6 mo. old’s rice cereal and let her go to town!!! Can you all share what type of paper you used with the paints? I am so excited to try this with my 9 mo old, who LOVES touching everything! This comment has been removed by the author. Hi, I just tried this awesome ricipe out with my 1yr old daughter. She spent most of the time with her fingers in her mouth and was able to explore the wonderful world of colour without me worrying about poisonous substances Thank you! Oh, I have answered the staining and cleaning up issues – She was wearing a disposable nappy (as mentioned above) And I used an old inflatable pool sans water as the painting area. Clean up was a breeze! I’ve made this twice now. The first time it worked perfectly. The second time it didn’t. I don’t know if it made the difference or not, but when I made it this time I mixed the cornstarch into the cold water instead of the water into the cornstarch. I just cooked it for a bit on the stove and it thickened after a few minutes. Thanks for a great recipe! I’ve made this before and my son loved it, but I was just wondering how long the paints last in closed jars before they start growing stuff? I wondered how to store it too?!? I sealed the jars & put it in the pantry & within a week it absolutely stank I was so disappointed! The batch made more than I needed, so the uncoloured batch I had kept in the fridge, & that’s find weeks later! I’ve just made this and the recipe worked a treat! Although, instead of stirring lots I left it for a few minutes then started stirring and it became gloopy and custard-like. Love the recipe, thank you so much! We’re going to have fund tomorrow wow this looks fab, and it does actually look tasty even if its not, lol Corn flour and corn starch are not the same. Corn flour is milled from the whole kernel, while cornstarch is obtained from the endosperm portion of the kernel. Corn starch is just that – starch. It is chemically separated from the protein and other components of corn flour. The confusion stems in that they can SOMETIMES be used interchangeably, such as in soups and stews as a thickening agent. However, for bread baking and deep frying, you cannot substitute corn starch for corn flour. Corn flour is available in the US, but it is typically located with the other specialty grains. My local grocery store carries it in Bob’s Red Mill brand. That being said, when I decided to attempt this “recipe,” I didn’t have any corn flour handy. However, as I am located in the southwest US, I did have masa harina, a flour made from lime soaked corn, which is most commonly used to make tortillas. So, I decided to try using it instead. While I cannot comment on substituting corn starch or US corn flour, I can attest that the masa harina worked. My 12 month old daughter wasn’t initially impressed by this project, but, with a little encouragement, she quickly became thrilled. I’ve already made it three times this week! It seems to entertain her in about 30 minute bursts. Thank you for providing such a great “recipe” I’ve tried multiple versions of edible finger paint and have found this version to be the best yet. The finished product had a nice, slightly thick, consistency. I have since recommended it to all of my friends with children who still taste everything. I almost forgot to mention…it did stain her skin in a few spots, but it was easily removed with a little soap and some unappreciated scrubbing. Good luck to everyone else! I made this for my 14 month daughter as her first experience with paint. She had a great time. Thank you If it helps anyone, a cup in the UK is actually slightly less than a cup in the US. That may have affected how some of the batches turned out for people. ) Thank you for posting. I’m trying it with my 7 month old today! I made this today for my 18 month old twins and they loved it. I cooked it in the microwave for a couple of minutes after I’d put the hot water in – no different to making custard really!! Think I might add some glitter next time too I’ve linked you up in my blog post about it too, if that’s ok! My kids loved this!! Although mine was very watery :S but it was still fun gloop! My 5 month old and 2 1/2 yr old loved it!! ( especially sliding with his feet ) thank you!! Did this with my 10 month old today and had a blast! the consistency of mine was great, even better after I cooked it for a couple of minutes. My 4.5yo sensory seeker and 2.5yo had a ball! I gave them an assortment of edible sprinkles to throw in, along with chopped up apples, sultana’s and dried paw paw. My 2yo thought this was fantastic and everything went straight in the mouth. The older one knew best, despite me telling him this was special paint he could eat, he said ‘I’m worried mummy, you shouldn’t eat paint!’ Will definitely do this again! I used the food colouring sparingly and only had a little staining on their hands, sure it will be gone after bath time What an amazingly simple yet awesome idea!! I just made a whole batch and they turned out GREAT. I’m waiting for the little one to wake up so I can try this out! I think I might add a bit of flavoring to the dyes next time! (vanilla, orange zest etc!). Thanks for sharing! Note to anyone making this – put it in the fridge! I left mine out and opened it 4 days later and boy did it stink!! Saw this on Pinterest and tried it out. It didn’t work that well. I think my water was not hot enough. After i put it on the stove and stired it, it was getting better. And I had to add tons of food colouring. I think I am going to try it again Anyway, if it doesn’t work again I will put it on the stove again. Doesn’t matter I tried this today with my 7mo and it was fabulous. I did use corn starch instead of corn flour (they are similar, but definitely not the same thing), so mine turned out a little more translucent. Next time I might try adding a little flour or more dye to turn out deeper colours. After reading all the comments I went straight to mixing it on medium heat on the stove, which worked beautifully. I don’t know how the original instructions with the boiling water would have turned out, but I definitely had success on the stove. The mixture gelled together in less than 2 minutes, though I had to stir it constantly. Thanks, Anna, for this wonderful site! I have 1 baby so far (only a small bit older than Baby Bean), so I can’t use everything on here yet, but I love all the ideas. Things that I can’t try yet I’m filing away in my brain for later!!! I’m ALL about sensory play for my 7mo right now. I want him to play in the dirt, splash in water, taste everything that’s non-toxic, and generally explore the world as much as possible! I am having so much fun already, introducing the world to him and letting him make discoveries. And he’s young – I know there is so much more ahead of us! I did this last night and it never thickened. I live in the US and think that you might have meant oz instead of cups? Because I added 2 additional cups of corn starch to the mixture and it still didn’t thicken. It got to a milky consistency so I had the kids use it anyway and it stained them from head to toe lol. It was a mess! I haven’t tried this yet, but I wonder if it is the different size of UK “cups” vs. US “cups” is causing the inconsistent results. My husband is Australian and they have their own size “cups” as well. I have had many many many recipes turn out poorly because the ratio of dry to liquid isn’t the same. I’m going to try making paint this afternoon and see how it goes! Last time I checked babies 6 months old shouldn’t have corn starch and why you would want them to have food coloring which is linked to cancer starting out, is beyond my level of comprehension….Parents, if you are using food dyes go all natural, regular food dyes are not good for babies or toddlers. Last time I checked the article was not suggesting that you feed this to your baby as food. Get a grip. The obvious interpretation of the activity and resources prepared here is that, although this is not food, if it gets in your baby’s mouth it isn’t going to harm them. Small quantities of corn starch or food colourings are unlikely to do any lasting harm when used on an occasional basis. Also, you are clearly guilty of a typical America-centric assumption here, perhaps being aware that there is a world outside the US is beyond your comprehension too (I’m assuming by your spelling and your choice of CBS as your news source that you are probably from the US). The food dyes referred to in your linked article have been phased out in the UK (and Europe in general) where this blog is written. In fact, it even says as much in the article. Perhaps parents such as yourselves in the US need to be as proactive at getting companies to change their products as we have been in the UK (). It is quite possible to pick up natural food colourings off the shelf in UK supermarkets unlike in the USA () (I live in Texas, currently, so am well aware of how hard they are to come by here). Granted, there is still some chemical sounding stuff in those natural ones, but at a drop or two in a whole batch of paint that they are going to get a small fraction of in their mouth on maybe a day or two a month, let’s keep it in perspective! Thank you for that excellent comment anon! Thank you x Corn (because it’s a starchy carb) is kind of an empty calorie food and not a huge nutritional value for baby therefore some people opt not to give their baby cornstarch until after 12 months but as early as 10 months. It can cause gas/diarrhea and can be hard to digest. Having said that, some infant formulas have derivitives of cornstarch such as corn syrup. Further to that, jarred baby food will sometimes have cornstarch especially if it’s a gravy type mix. I’ve recently started giving my 11 mth old creamed corn (homemade) and she seems to have no problem with it. On the dye side of things, try something for red such as beet juice/beet powder (straight from the beet or the water), blue and purple from dark berries, carrots for orange, saffron for yellow and those are just a few suggestions. A quick google search will help with that. Oh my gosh what a great recipe! Thank you so much for sharing this. I am going to try this out with my two little ones. I know they are going to have so much fun! Here in the UK the majority of our food colourings ARE natural. The finger paint is not a food. It is a paint that if it gets into babies mouth then baby will be okay. Therefore it is not necessary for it to be highly calorific or nutritional as that is not it’s primary function. Thank you very much for that measured and intelligent response! Hello, I love the paint, anything I have ever tried simply turns to liquid, or just doesn’t have the right consistency. I credited your page on my blog today, for making the edible paint. Thanks for such a wonderful recipe. niftythriftymom.1.blogspot.com Thank you! I made this today and added a small amount of vanilla essence into it and added some food colouring, not much, but it came out really vibrant! Ooo what a lovely idea to add the essence! Thanks! I love the idea of this. I’m always worried about what’s in regular finger paints. This takes all of that worry away. I’m eager to try these with my charges this week. I have been looking for finger paints to do with my daugther who is just 10 months she loves messy play now I am happy in knowlege that I can now make safe paint for her and we can now make christmas cards togethers for her grandparents Hey I think this is a great idea.. Just wondering would it work on canvas? Another way of making edible finger paint is usung vanilla pudding or plain, or vanilla yogurt. And mixing in food color. Worked great for me, and my 1 year old preferred to use a brush (she’s a bit princessy like that – didn’t want to get her hands dirty, but was happy to have it everywhere if she used a brush) – how do you store the leftover paint and for how long? I’ve just made this and it was incredibly easy! Really looking forward to letting my 16 month old get stuck in. Great activity. Just a warning to be careful with the mix if letting little ones gets in and help make it, as it can get pretty hot… I know that is an obvious point- but I’m all for protecting the little ones, and we all forgot common sense at times. My tip for this recipe is to stir it a lot! When you think it is perfect, stir some more! We kept stirring and stirring, and ours eventually became a very similar texture to the paints we used to use at school! We used HEAPS of colour- we got some great brights, but yes beware of staining. My little one has gone down for her afternoon nap a little more yellow than usual (sort of like a Simpsons character). Thanks for this post… I have it earmarked this task for a group activity for one of my Speech Pathology language development groups. I can imagine it will be a hit! Oh one more thing…. old baby custard glass jars (the heinz branded ones in Australia) are a perfect size for paint pots…. and I feel all green for reusing someonthing Just done this with my 6 month old, she loved it! It kept her attention for half an hour, which for her is an achievement! The recipe worked great for us, we did need to put in the microwave for a minute, but it came together brilliantly after that. Will be doing it again with big brother later – thanks for the idea! Can this be stored room temp? Or does it need stored in the fridge? Thanks! Great so when you give it to the kids they will eat it and love it. But when they go to school and they see paint and they eat it they r going to die. Teaching kids bad things. I don’t allow this happening. By the time children are school age they are able to understand about what they can and cannot eat. The whole point of this is that babies too young to understand they can’t eat paint can join in. Wow! Thanks so much for this wonderful recipe! Just a quick question: how long do I need to fridge it after adding colouring? Just shared this idea: it is so clever! I wish all preschool teachers took the time to make such a child friendly paint and to raise awareness about the many chemicals that are present in many things that are labelled “non-toxic”. Thanks for sharing this recipe! just a thought, powdered coloring would give a more vibrant color Cute idea.when I was a kid we used pudding as finger paint. Just made this recipe for my kids and they are painting right now! I used cornstarch and it turned out slightly lumpy but it adds to the texture experience Mixing the cornstarch with the cold water until smooth before adding the hot water would fix this problem but I let my 3 year old mix up that part… I didn’t have much food coloring in my cupboard so I used things like coffee grounds, curry powder, paprika, dill, etc… to make the colors. Worked great and added some scent and extra texture I am going to make this for my daughter’s b-day party. Just thought that I would share what I read on FOOD.com: . Substitutions: cornmeal pulverized in a food processor.” I’m sure any whole foods or health foods store would carry it.Thanks for the fun looking recipe! Tried this. Got soup. Transferred to pot, added more cornstarch and cooked. Ended up with lumpy soup. Very disappointing. can i store this for later use? how long does it last? Fridge or room temp? I tried mixing the cornstarch in cold water first, and then instead of adding boiling water, I just added 4 and a half cups of cold water, mixed it again and microwaved it. Super consistency! I just made this for the first time today for our mums and babies (ages from 6 months to 3 years) and we LOVED it! Thank you so so much for this great recipe. I’m never buying store-made paint again! I loved the consistency of it. I only put in 3.5 cups of boiling water as it seemed enough. The colours turned out beautifully too. It was great that we could hang them up to dry without the paint dripping on to the floor because it’s nice and thick. Will DEFINITELY be making this on a regular basis! By the way, I’ve linked up to you on my blog, hope that’s ok. Have a look at our homemade paint results. Enter your email address: Delivered by FeedBurner

Almost certainly first on the list for some kind of adaptation is Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time series of novels. The Wheel of Time is currently the dominant force in the epic fantasy subgenre. The thirteen novels (fifteen, including the guidebook and prequel) have sold approximately 50 million copies to date in more than two dozen countries, and the series will be attracting a substantial amount of publicity next year when the fourteenth and final novel, A Memory of Light, finally hits the shelves. Given the series' immense sales clout and popularity, some kind of adaptation has been on the cards for a while. About ten years ago, Robert Jordan sold an option to NBC, who were considering making a mini-series of The Eye of the World. Nothing came of this project after those pushing it at NBC departed. A Japanese animation studio contacted Robert Jordan with a proposal to adapt the first three books as a series of movies, but they only wanted to do the first three and change the ending of the third book to the ending of the entire series. Jordan turned down this proposal. In the mid-2000s, Red Eagle Entertainment bought the rights from Robert Jordan to develop film, computer game and comic adaptations of The Wheel of Time. In August 2008 they entered into a partnership with Universal Pictures to develop a two-hour movie based on The Eye of the World. Three years on, there appears to have been no movement on this project, and it's unclear how much longer Universal's option has left before it expires. Whilst the success of Game of Thrones may inspire Universal to take another look at the project, I think it's more likely that we will see the project re-envisaged for television. In a series of articles I'm going to be looking at the practicalities of bringing The Wheel of Time to the screen, considering its vast scope, huge cast and immense visual effects requirements. To start with, let's ask the most basic question of all. Should This Even Be Attempted? There is a strong opinion amongst a subset of Wheel of Time fans that no adaptation should even be attempted. This is a series of fourteen very large books, totalling 11,000 pages in paperback when all is said and done, featuring a cast of almost 2,000 named characters sprawling across dozens of major and minor storylines. The books are what they are. Why should they be brought to the screen? The easy answer to this is that it's going to happen. At some point, whether it's next week or twenty years from now, there's going to be an adaptation of The Wheel of Time on screen. The books have sold too many copies and there is too much potential money in a successful adaptation for it to simply be left alone. As a result, it's better (I think) to be taking this as read and considering how it may be best achieved rather than simply hoping it won't happen. In addition, working out how on earth you'd tackle this project makes for an interesting thought-experiment. TV or Movie? This is the next question and one that has driven a great deal of discussion over the years. The question results in a paradox which can be summed up concisely: The Wheel of Time is too expensive to be a TV series. It needs to be a film.Basically, the books have too many huge battles, too much magic use, too many sets, too much location work and too many non-human creatures to be viable as a TV series. Only a series of movies capable of assigning hundreds of millions of dollars to two hour-blocks at a time can give the Wheel the visual look it needs. The Wheel of Time is too long to be a film. It needs to be a TV series. At the same time, the books are too long with too many characters, too many storylines and too many subplots to be easily adapted as a series of films. To fit a 700-page novel (let alone the 1,000-page ones in the middle of the series) into two hours is impossible, which will result in epic cuts, with major characters and storylines having to be weeded out (great for Crossroads of Twilight, less so for The Eye of the World). Having fourteen films in the first place is also hopelessly unrealistic and impractical, splitting books across multiple films (an option apparently considered by Red Eagle) far moreso. For me, the equation is a simple one to solve. The practical concerns about effects and budget are serious ones and should not be underestimated. However, the books don't exactly have a major battle sequence every five pages (and not one of the battles in the books so far rivals the battles that Game of Thrones will be depicting soon enough), whilst shows from Legend of the Seeker and Merlin through Heroes, BSG, Babylon 5 and Buffy the Vampire Slayer have handled extensive special effects requirements on extremely modest budgets before. In short, the practical concerns can be handled or worked-around on TV. There is no way to address or work-around the cutting of major storylines and characters in a film adaptation. Of course, some fans and critics would be happy to see a chainsaw taken to immense length and the vast cast of characters of the books, and certainly even a TV adaptation will have to be ruthless with some aspects of the story. But to work as a film or series of films, The Wheel of Time would have to lose major elements: the Seanchan and probably the Shaido would have to go for a start, along with many of the interim obstacles Rand faces on his quest to unite the world for the Last Battle. Most dangerously, the cutting would reduce Rand's story to its bare bones: a humble guy from a bucolic countryside who, with the help of his plucky friends and a wise mentor figure (albeit an attractive woman rather than an old guy) evades black-cloaked creatures and eventually goes to a volcano to confront the bad guy. Yeah, people might think they've seen that story before. My conclusion is that if an adaptation must proceed, it must attempt to be faithful to at least the spirit (if not the letter) of the storyline set out in the books. Taking this hugely popular story and immediately ditching 90% of it makes no sense, so the movie option has to be dismissed (as Robert Jordan himself said many years ago). So now we can consider a TV show and all the immense impracticalities and challenges of that daunting prospect. Next time I'll ponder how you shrink 11,000 pages of dense plotting into a workable outline for a TV series without destroying the story or scaring off viewers. This will include questions about the length and structure of the overall series, the length of individual seasons (can we tell the story of The Eye of the World in five or six hours, or does it need ten?) and what impact that will have on what needs to be cut and what can be kept intact. 37 comments: Aside from budgetary constraints, which you say can be resolved, do you see any other reason for not including the Seanchan storyline? I feel its too crucial, particularly going into the final books, and moreover, what with the Seanchan battle and everything, its likely to be one of the most attractive parts of the TV series, if it were made. Loved your analysis! Do tweet when you post the next one in this series :) I think the second half of s1 of Game of Thrones, were it starts to get really epic, will prove whether or not its possible to make an epic fantasy series on TV. So far the series has been great beyond belief, but we haven’t really had any large scale stuff yet, and WOT certainly is large scale. I’m not convinced it can be done, Rome’s 2 minute battle of Philippi didn’t exactly make a compelling argument for it. Ignoring money issues, I think each WOT book (except for COT) needs to be at least 8-10 episodes long. Sure, there’s a lot of slow stretches(much like ASOIAF), but book 1-7 and 11-13 are also filled with such a huge amount of plot movement and action, that I think one could easily make 10 episode adaption’s that would feel fast paced. Hmm, interesting thoughts - I agree that a TV series makes more sense - especially given the pacing of the series. I think perhaps, one way to resolve the length issue though would be to take account of how the books are perceived. Books 1-3 are often perceived as a trilogy, of sorts. Climaxing with Rand being confirmed as the Dragon Reborn. This could be series 1. Elements that could be cut: Seanchan. The Eye of The world. (A lot of fans see this as a side-quest anyway, in essence a resolution imposed by the need to get a first book resolution to a series). Cutting the Seanchan could prove problematical due to the importance they play later on. However a possibility would be to make it so that their arrival in Amadicia / Ebou Dar is their first entrance into the series. Books 4-6 are seen as the next 'arc'. Climax being the kidnapping. Up for cutting: Shaido, Tanchico. The various journies to Salidar (Siuan et al and Nynaeve et al) could be condensed. This would be series 2. Books 7-9 would be a good arc. Climax being The Cleansing. Up for cutting: Most of book 8, but keeping Egwene taking control. Series 3. Books 10-11 are harder - neither has a defining climax. Candidates for a climax could be Mats marriage, or Elaynes kidnapping. Sereis 4. Books 12-14 are much faster paced, I suspect that there is enough material for perhaps 2 or 3 series in these books. Series 5 and 6 (perhaps 7). The Seanchan attack on the Tower here is vital - hence why the invasion of Ebou Dar has to be kept. -------- One thing that would need to happen would be reorganising to keep the storylines roughly in parallel. This was the problem with later books - and it wouldn't adapt well to a tv series. The problem would come with series 4 (Books 10-11). There isn't a focus on Rand in those books in any major way, so one possibility would be to move Rands Gathering Storm Arc into the 10 to 11 region. Each series before then has culminated with Rand performing a great act. and nothing in 10 or 11 would risk seeing the series cancelled right before its climax. I still think that Eye of the World, at the very least, should be made into a movie. It's practically begging to be made into a movie, what with the way the plot is laid out. It's also the most self-contained of the Wheel of Time books, so you could make the movie, then drop the rest of the series if the movie isn't profitable. Having fourteen films in the first place is also hopelessly unrealistic and impractical, Several of the books would almost certainly be combined/cut. There are also a lot of subplots which really just don't go anywhere, along with lots of description. Even so, you'd end up with a long series of movies . . . which is exactly what Hollywood loves. They love a long, successful franchise of movies that they can milk (look at the Harry Potter series of movies). However, the books don't exactly have a major battle sequence every five pages (and not one of the battles in the books so far rivals the battles that Game of Thrones will be depicting soon enough), I strongly disagree. A Song of Ice and Fire has only five major battles* that we see from the perspectives of the view-point characters, with the rest occurring either off-screen or in flashback. Those are spread out through-out the series. * I'm counting 1. Tyrion's battle in AGoT 2. Battle of the Blackwater 3. Battle on the Fist of First Men 4. The Jon-led defense of the Wall vs a Wildling siege. 5. Stannis's assault on the wildlings. Wheel of Time, on the other hand, has tons of battles with massive numbers of opponents (like tens of thousands of Trollocs or more), along with frequent and heavy use of special-effects-laden magic. For a television show, they'd either have to cut back on that extensively, or show it on lower budget effects (which can look very cheesy). The Wheel of Time would have to lose major elements: the Seanchan and probably the Shaido would have to go for a start, along with many of the interim obstacles Rand faces on his quest to unite the world for the Last Battle. I could live without the Shaido, who are mostly off-screen except in a handful of books. Even the Seanchan could be mostly shown off-screen in the movies. Sorry for the long post. There is a guide book to Wheel of Time? I am so picking it up!! I honestly think an anime series of the Wheel of Time would be the best way to preserve it in its entirety. I don't know what kind of expenses are involved, but I imagine it'd be far less than a live action tv series. The only problem would be that WoT fans may not embrace that medium. Who knows, but I feel like anime fans are fantasy fans I think, while not all fantasy fans are anime fans. As long as their is a lot of oversight to make sure it's not just some fan-service fest, but played more seriously, it could be great! Hey, WoT even has some pretty fan-servicey moments built into it. And if not "anime" in style, any animation works. There's just the stigma of animated = cartoons = for children. So yeah, that's what I'd prefer and what would work best if fidelity to the story is the main priority. "Wheel of Time, on the other hand, has tons of battles with massive numbers of opponents (like tens of thousands of Trollocs or more), along with frequent and heavy use of special-effects-laden magic." I know there's a perception of this, but I don't think it's really true. Dumai's Wells will be a massive set-piece, but the much larger (in terms of manpower) Battle of Cairhien in the book before mostly happens in the distance whilst Rand and Egwene observe from a wooden platform (most of Mat's battles there happen offpage/offscreen, though for TV we'd definitely need to have Mat and Couladin's fight). There's the running battles with the Seanchan in Book 8, but a lot of that is related through characters talking inbetween the engagements, not the actual combat itself, and most of the battles aren't shown in the book either. Book 11 has a couple of medium sized-battles at Malden and the Malvide Narrows. Malden isn't actually that bad, since it happens at night and the focus is on Perrin's rescue mission, not the bigger battle which is a backdrop. The Malvide Narrows, where Mat deploys his basic proto-firearms, will need to be a bigger battle though. Rand and the channellers blowing away hordes of Trollocs with the Power will be an expensive set-piece, no doubt about that, but the Trollocs are mostly wiped out at a great distance and the whole thing can be CGIed (rather than a mix of CGI and live-action in some of these other scenes, which is more complicated). Maradon in ToM is also a big deal, but arguably it can be toned down a lot for TV. What WoT does have much more of is the number of party-level, D&D-style skirmishes between Team Rand and bunches of Shadowspawn and so forth, but these should be more doable on a budget. As long as these things can be spread out every few episodes, it shouldn't be a problem (like when DS9 or B5 had an absolutely massive space battle and then four 'bottle shows' in a row which had next to no sfx at all to make up for it). I know lots of people love the animation idea, but it's really not viable. Red Eagle paid a substantial figure for the rights, and Universal paid them an even more substantial figure to develop the propety, way more than the return from any anime or CGI movie that could be generated. If the rights collapse back to the Jordan Estate (as they will eventually if nothing more happens), maybe it could be done in a way that is affordable, but that's many years off. It's also worth reiterating that a Japanese animation company was interested in the property a decade ago, but Jordan turned them down and as far as we know, there's been no interest at all from that quarter since. Nice post. You're right that this would seem to be the next major fantasy series to be adapted for screen, whether large or small. I've been reading the Wheel of Time for many years, but my enthusiasm for it dropped off after Crossroads of Twilight. The idea of getting rid of the whole Shaido subplot makes perfect sense - then we wouldn't have to endure Perrin's interminable traipsing around after them. Do you know which Japanese animation studio it was, that had hoped to adapt the first three books of the series? Or is that just anecdotal? I'd be interested to hear... used to be a bit of an anime buff, I did. Fascinating post in any case, Adam. Looking forward to whatever you have up your sleeve for next time. Oh, and I'm glad your computer woes seem to be behind you. Whatever would we all do without our Wert? :I Is the Wheel of Time worth reading? I'm thinking of trying it once all the books are finished. I've heard both pros and cons... I would be perfectly happy if they created new characters, and follow their journey to the Last Battle. You could brush their story-lines up against major events in the book. Creating a TV series from that angle would be much more appealing to me than butchering my favorite fantasy series. Of course this probably isn't an option, but it should be. @ Niall: No, the computer is more stable now than it was, but this just means it's crashing 3-4 times a day rather than 9-10. It's letting me get some stuff done, but only by constantly using Blogger's draft-saving technique or drafting files in Word and saving them every few minutes before sending them over :-( As for the anime option, I believe RJ only ever mentioned it once: "A japanese company contacted me about doing an animated movie. I told them no, because they wanted to do a movie based on two or three books, and I said 'no, I won't do that.'" @Tom Bremer: It's difficult to say. I read the first seven books when I was 17 and fairly new to the fantasy genre, and read it long before ASoIaF, PoN, MBF and other big series. I think older people who've already read a lot of fantasy may find it less interesting, though it's still far better-written than say Eddings or Feist. @Anon: That's a good idea, and when RJ was still alive I thought it would be brilliant to do a War of the Shadow movie based on his notes and outline. Of course, that's not possible now, and I think fans will be reluctant to okay any original WoT material not okayed by RJ. That leaves really only an adaptation of existing material possible. Good post. I'm thinking it's unlikely the studio is planning beyond the first movie. If they make the first one and it's successful, they'll make a second one. If the second one is a blockbuster they'll plan for more. If it gains a cult following then maybe it moves to TV. I'd love to see a more planned-out approach but Hollywood being Hollywood, they are probably gonna figure it out as they go. i don't a tv show is even being considered is it? at the last WoT convention the guys from red eagle said they were making a movie, nothing about tv. they even said who was working on it. Why do series have to be divided into seasons with a limited number of episodes? Couldn't there be a long series that has as many episodes as it takes to tell the story? Some soap operas run forever (I'm thinking of the German Lindenstraße). Of course WoT takes more preparation than a soap opera, so weekly episodes for years might not work. There might have to be breaks between books to catch up with production. Red Eagle have a tendency to say that things are moving along, stuff is happening, announcements will be made soon and then nothing happens. Three years after the Universal deal, more than that since they optioned the property, fans' patience with them is at an all-time low. I have no doubt that Red Eagle want to make a movie. They will make far more money even out of a failed movie than a TV series. The point I am making (and Mondragon admits in the interview) is that you cannot tell this story in the format of film. You can tell 'a story inspired by the books' but a faithful adaptation of the early books is impossible. My argument is that if you cut three-quarters of this story (and that's being ludicrously generous; it'll be more like 90%), then what's the point of adapting it in the first place? For fans there is no point whatsoever. Newcomers might get a half-decent film sharing some names with the books. But that film will not be, and cannot be, THE WHEEL OF TIME. Red Eagle have optioned the property not to produce a faithful adaptation true to the spirit of the books, but as a stepping-stone to making some dosh. Fair enough, that's what rights-management companies exist for, but to pretend that this is the best way of telling the story on screen is an outright lie. A great post, and a great discussion. I am one of those (who Adam mentioned in passing) who feel that much of the series would be vastly improved by cutting certain parts of it. In particular, I would love to see a heron-mark sword taken to large swaths of books 7 - 10. Adam, your point about the similarity of the bones of Rand's story is well taken - which is one reason why I think the Seanchan need to be kept in. They are one of the more original elements of the story and set it apart in many ways. An (incomplete) list of things I would like to see disappear from a movie adaptation (not to mention the books themselves), in no particular order: The entire Shaido storyline, post-Couladin (including Faile's abduction and Perrin's endless quest to retrieve her). The Bowl of the Winds / climate change subplot (the concept doesn't bother me, but it took way too long to tell and could be cut or vastly shortened). The Prophet. (The Prophet might have been interesting if, again, it didn't take such an extraordinarily long time to wrap up his subplot.) Granted, taking away the Masema entirely essentially takes away Rand's reason for calling Perrin back from Emond's Field... The entirety of Elayne's struggle to hold on to the throne of Andor. The entirety of the Salidar sequence, other than the bare minimum necessary to show Egwene taking power and heading for Tar Valon. I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting. Keep in mind also that these are just things that I think would improve the series if they were removed entirely -- there are obviously many other portions that could be cut or shortened for length's sake. I also say this with all the love, as I still think of this series as one of my favorites. Reading the Eye of the World for the first time is one of the defining moments in my memories of reading fantasy. The could make the series much shorter if they edited out all the romance- I did a blog post on that ( ). Additionally they could also edit out all the time Elayne spends in the bath, that would saves hours, or if HBO were making it, add hours :-) The entire Shaido storyline, post-Couladin (including Faile's abduction and Perrin's endless quest to retrieve her). That pretty much eliminates most of Faile, which opens the (great) possibility of simply eliminating the character altogether. She mostly exists as something for Perrin to deal with and chase after anyways. Give him something else to do in the movies/television show. The entirety of Elayne's struggle to hold on to the throne of Andor. You could move the events of that earlier into the whole storyline. In fact, you could do both. Move Elayne's struggle to get control of Andor earlier into the story, and possibly move Perrin's defense of the Two Rivers later on. Here's the thing... while a load of the tertiary characters may be unnamed in a movie or a TV series, a lot of secondary characters will have to be kept in. However, in a TV series, these people will have just a few scenes in one season and many scenes in another (expecially important Aes Sedai like Verin and Sheriam, as well as the Foresaken). The same is the case with making a movie. You can't change the actors who play these characters for each installments, and I think keeping them all active for the huge nuber of years it would take to film this would be impossible. I think a performance capture 3-D film, ala Tintin, made by a big name director like Spielberg or Jackson or Cameroon is what we need. You're right that WoT is indeed an epic story. And I think the subtexts involved in Rand's descent into madness, Egwene's politicking, Mat's reluctance to take responsibility, and the Seanchan will be something that a lot of people may appreciate in the current world of terrorism and the fight against it. I know Jordan intended none of this, but those themes work really well in the context of today's world, something that is usually not easy to see unless you read the books all together. But I think live action movies would pose too much of a challenge. Forget the magic and the battles. Hoe will you create iconic places like Caemlyn, Tar Valon, Tear, Ebou Dar and Rhuidean? GRRM restricted himself to magestic castles. Jordan has huge cities, and all of them are very well described and most readers would want to see them on screen. The best option is to give up live-action. I'd say a TV series is certainly the best idea. But plan it out with extreme economy to take no more than a set number of episodes, say 150, split into 7 seasons of 21-22 episodes.. They would need to be mindful of what I felt to be the cardinal sin of the first season of Legend of the Seeker. Adding in too many filler episodes. When the first season should have adapted both "Wizard's First Rule" and "Stone of Tears" to completely finish up the Darken Rahl storyline, and set up the Chimes storyline. They didn't, it turned into monster of the week, people didn't watch it, and by the time they fixed it with season 2 it was too late. Having it on Sunday afternoons was a terrible idea too. but the last thing died. The one with the plucky girl, and the white tower, and all the fucking dragons at the end. Killed by Hollywood. Award winning script too. Do I care if Wheel of Time comes to the screen? NOT EVER. I want to read the ending. POSTMAN at least did some good (orange revolution). I hope hollywood, in total, rots in hell before they start killing good series that don't work on TV or Movies. Wheel of Time works best as a Mud. There are several. Go, play them. Game of Thrones works horribly as a Mud. Hope nobody's doing it, because it would suck! But it makes grand TV. Mud? TV would be the best medium, but the model is broken. The 10-13 episode seasons of HBO could work, but would they be committed to it? They aren't even sure Game of Thrones will be back for season 2 despite pretty big numbers. You could do a lot with a full 24-26 episode runs on primetime TV, especially on NBC who really needs a hit - look at their desperation with renewing the terrible "Heroes" and running shows like "Bionic Woman" and "The Event". For TV, the problem becomes ratings and cost. We've seen successful Sci-fi in primetime but not Fantasy. With DVRs ruining the income-through-commercials-based-on-ratings model, it's hard to determine if costs would be covered. Even more problematic are executives who meddle when they think they know what's best for a show. "Make Perrin the goofy sidekick to Rand! Let's get a romance going between Matt and Egwene! Where are the cute and cuddly pets?" You're dealing with marketing people who have no clue about what fans of the show want, only what they think has "worked" over the years because it fits a formula. What you need is a screenwriter/director in Hollywood with the passion to be true to the story, and a studio willing to take a risk, like Peter Jackson and New Line Cinema did with LotR (and look where NLC is now). Obviously you can't make 14 movies, but with some tight script writing you could cut it down to 6 or 7 movies...that's Harry Potter-ish and certainly doable, but the movies would have to be no more than 2 years apart to keep actors from aging too fast and plot threads forgotten. How do you cut out the Sanchan? Way too big a part of the plot/Mat's character arc and we still don't know what part they will play in the Last battle. cut out parts? hell no. why dont we change everbodys name and make it a kids movie while we are at it?, Movie producers dont have a problem making scream 5 or final destination 5 or 6 or what ever part they are on, look up new movies coming in 2012, all remakes and parts 4s and 6s. stupid. t.v. serries= bad graphics. give me six 3 hour, rated R movies. this story deserves it. and every movie would make more money than the last... gold mine for 6 years..... comment supzloco@yahoo.com "cut out parts? hell no. why dont we change everbodys name and make it a kids movie while we are at it?,give me six 3 hour, rated R movies." So you don't want parts cut, but you want the entire story condensed into 6 3-hour movies? You can't have both. 6 3-hour movies would amount to, maybe at absolute best, 7 or 8% of the story from the novels. If you want to do WoT properly on screen, you have to do it on TV. Film is not a realistic option unless you want the story gutted. This reminds me that Part 2 of this article is a couple of months overdue. Need to get back to that. It's too big of a task and too much risk involved to remake the books into TV or movies. I think something similar to how True Blood has done is what should be done. A Game of Thrones of just far too predictable for me to really love, although it is worth watching. However I just love True Blood because you don't know what's going to happen. I just hope the creation of a movie or series will inspire more readers to try the books than turn away new readers with a poorly made project. It will be interesting to see how they put it all together, but Im not holding much hope for an adaptation that holds anything close to the experience of the Wot books. Be it TV, or film. Its said they want to stray from the traditional "family friendly" aspect other fantasy genre movies followed. (i.e. Harry potter, Narnia, Erigon etc). but aside from Blood and gore, little about the series is Mature other than the sometimes confusing plot, but the plot confounds just about everyone at times. point being, does this mean in-book phrases like "Burning" or "Bloody" will be replaced with actual curse words in the movie? would it even make sense to INCREASE the maturity? A lot of people focus on the sheer number of pages that make up the books. In the case of RJ, this is very misleading since he is a very descriptive writer. Turning this to a visual medium will remove all descriptive parts and the reintroductions of many characters in every book. This alone will decrease the material by hundreds of pages in one stroke. Dynamite turned this series into a comic and adding pictures makes a lot of difference Personaly, I also favor the option for an animated series. An artform that is alas underestimated by many, including the major studios. Hey from what I myself have seen of the great example Game of Thrones I think that parts of the WOT series should be put into TV format with no issue, but there are certain major parts, whole books in fact, that this format would not be compatible. For instance, spoiler alert, I think that the Battles at say the end of book Two with the Ever Victorious Army the White Cloaks and the Heroes of the Horn and the Battle for Caemlyn, whatever book that’s in, are large enough and important enough to be made into full scale films, not to mention the Last Battle. So rather than having to choose from two totally different options, I think it would be better to have a balanced mix, the practicality of this kind of setup is questionable, but if say Universal and HBO teamed up they could create something that has never been successfully achieved: A continuous story that crosses from TV to movie without a mountain of series contradictions. I do however agree that T.V. would be the primary for the series. i,m not a big fan of reading. i never read a series of books in my life, but....... my father introduced me to the wheel of time and i,ve read them all so far and am waiting for the final book. i'm a HUGE fan of the wheel of time, and i would love to see a successful tv series come from this awsome story. and i would like to congradulate branden sanderson on doing such a great job continuing the story. I think the idea of a tv series with some movie makes sense thats how SG-1 did it they had 2 movies and 10 seasons. They could combine some of the books into the same season with 2-3 movies and be able to it in a similar amount of time. I feel like I need to compare this series to a few others right now in regards to whether a movie or TV series would be better. First off, movie option is a definite no, WAY too many books and it would not feel like the series it already is. Especially if you were to compare it to Lord of the Rings, the books are about the same size, but the Wheel of Time series is easily 5x as long. 3x if you include The Hobbit in there. Now for the TV idea, definitely more viable, but instead of making each book its own season like what HBO is doing with Game of Thrones, take say the first 3 books and turn that into a season. That takes the series from being 14 seasons long, to about 5, around the same length of Game of Thrones (that one will be 7 seasons I believe). Now here we can combine some movie aspects into it. I agree, the special effects won't be totally stellar due to budget on a TV series, however if you figure a book on its own can make a 3 hour movie (again, comparing to Lord of the Rings here, particularly the 3rd original movie, not the extended version which is 4 hours long), then you have 9 episodes for your first season across 3 books (3 episodes per book, each episode about an hour long). I noticed someone else commented with the same idea with the TV arc, however I disagree with cutting the Seanchan out from the first season. The reason: We have the Horn of Valere being uesd, which will play a later role. Same with why we can't cut out the Eye of the World "side quest" either, that's where it's discovered, and it ties in to Mat, as well as later when Birgette is ripped from tel'aran'rhiod. It's hard to say what can be cut out because later they come back to play a pretty major role. And with Season 2, the Shaido play a part in how the Aiel are involved with Rand, Tanchico gives you more information with the Black Ajah. The Salidar journey though I agree can probably be drastically shortened. I definitely disagree with the people saying there's a lot of subplots that can be cut, because I've been re-reading the series quite a bit and every time I do I notice a connection between a seemingly random subplot with the greater story. Especially when bits of the Prophecy of the Dragon are mentioned. And we still have one more book to go. I have a feeling all these subplots will prove to have a significant impact on how this last book will play out. With HBO's obvious success with Game of Thrones, and the fact that a Premium cable channel like HBO would have the budget to handle such a task, the TV series would be the best way to serve such a great series of books. The key would be Mid-Season Finales. A full 1 hour episode without commercials, would allow for a book to be covered in half a season, say 6-7 episodes, with a 1 1/2-2 hr "season" finale if needed for the major battles. this would give the network 7 full seasons of potential income, and allow a shorter amount of time for the actors/actresses to age.

Additionally, Boston Catholic Marilyn LoPresti contacted the CDF and Apostolic Nuncio and received assurances that the Pride Mass at St. Cecelia's had been canceled. She was also assured that the Cardinal sent a communication to all pastors: they are to disassociate with the secular Gay Pride celebrations here in Boston and they are not to organize or celebrate such a Mass. These clarifications sent to priests from His Eminence were also supposed to be published in a public media statement. But in its stead, Boston priests received this peculiar and truncated statement from Terry Donilon: Good evening, Recently a Mass was scheduled for St. Cecilia Church in Boston and was publicized in the parish bulletin as being held in conjunction with Gay Pride Week. This created the unintended impression that the Church was endorsing Gay Pride activities. It is not. The Mass has been postponed and will be rescheduled to a later date. Saint Cecilia Parish is a loving and welcoming faith community and the Catholic Church treats all people with dignity and respect. The Catholic Church’s teachings on homosexuality and the dignity of the human person are rooted in faith and revelation. Thank you, Terry The good news is, the statement clarifies secular festivities of Gay Pride week cannot crescendo in a Catholic Liturgy, and emphasizes the Catholic Church treats ALL PEOPLE with dignity and respect. That ends the good news. Now, let us pull out our BS detectors and have a go at the rest of it. The statement seems to isolate St. Cecelia's as the only Catholic parish in the Archdiocese where gays are welcomed and treated with dignity and respect. The last thing we need are statements coming from the Archdiocese validating acumen that Catholics-at-large want the Catholic religion to be reserved for heterosexuals. People are hurt by this message. You're repeating the urban legend that in the Catholic Church, except for a few people, they are rejected. Nice job fellas. Thanks be to Jesus this crew was not in place at the time of the Civil War. The South would still be flying the Confederate flag. Further, the spin the timing and placement of the announcement of a Mass in St. Cecelia's bulletin and Gay Pride Week is all a big misunderstanding is not gelling. Even with the Globe: Donilon declined to answer questions about the apparent contradiction of the church’s bulletin and his statement. Statements that nobody can swallow seems to be the public relations policy of this Archdiocese. Why not just say there was a theological misunderstanding that is pastorally being aligned to outreach programs consistent with Catholic teaching? He digs himself further into the hole: He said, however, that there would be a Mass in the future to welcome the community, but not specifically gays and lesbians. Is there going to be a broader list? I hope we can move them beyond their fixations on who is sleeping with whom. I wonder if we can migrate them to focus physical attributes? How about segregating out parishes for fat people and skinny people? It could work. I'll tell you right now, I'm going to the parish that welcomes skinny people. Keep your coffee and donuts. I'm going where there'll be green tea and fruit cups. I've got just the song for the welcome home Catholics program: Fat kids, skinny kids, kids who climb on rocks, even kids with chicken pox. Where are they going with this? Does Donilon believe a Mass in the community to welcome all is something novel? This is what every other Mass, on any other day, in any other community has been doing for the last 2000 years. Why is it the policy of the Archbishop to publish the notion that loving and welcoming is reserved to a couple of handfuls of Catholics, and gays must flock to these places or face the hatred stewing in all other parishes? Can't they see that they are the ones inflicting wounds? How would you feel if suddenly the Archdiocese set up the dynamic that there are only a few parishes in town where orthodox Catholics are loved and welcomed in accordance with the Catholic religion? Oh, wait... :) The moral of the story is, this is another shining example of how Cardinal O'Malley is dismantling the unity of One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in Boston. He is fractioning our religion to places where every priest or every part of town has its own gig. He's made clear that in the future, it will all soon be handed over to the authority of those in these philosophical and structural subdivisions. There is a set of teachings in the Roman Catholic Church that should be taught in every parish by every priest and should all be consistent with what is taught by the roots of our faith and tradition, the Catechism of the Catholic Church. All are most definitely welcome. We listen, we learn, we strive, we struggle, we are tempted, we fall, we repent and we use the Sacraments to amend our lives in accordance with the Deposit of Faith. Most if not all of us have at one time or another thought some teaching was foolish and resisted accepting and guiding our lives by the teaching. Some of us even have periods in our lives when the teaching was too much of a burden on our own desires and we checked out. Sometimes, even a priest will derail and come up with an idea that is not theologically sound. There is supposed to be a local shepherd, the Bishop, who rescues his straying priests and brings us all to unity under sound Catholic teaching and theology. In the absence of this in Boston, things and people with an ax to grind against religion or Catholics are going to pick up the story and use it for ammunition to divide and conquer. 114 comments: Carol, Having read the post several observations come to mind. 1.) Kindly learn to proofread your posts prior to posting them. This simple step will enable one to more readily and easily read the screeds you publish. 2.) I would recommend a psych eval for you posthaste. 3.) Since when did detraction and calumny become hallmarks of a faithful Catholic instead of, as I was taught, mortal sins? Have a great day! Carol, splendid comments in the Globe article. The Globe, of course tags believing Roman Catholics as "conservative", while the dissenters and their enablers are presented without description. The same Old Media trickery. Father Unitarian (eh, I mean Unni) will continue his efforts to balkanize Catholics into his ideological and sexual categories. Unfortunately, the mealy mouthed response of the Archdiocese is not encouraging.The vigilance of local believing Roman Catholics shamed them into taking action. Good work! Carol, It is interesting that those who despise your faithfulness to Catholic teaching are calling for you to undergo "pysch eval". Using psychiatry and psychology as political weapons was favored by Soviet communism in the waning days of Brezhnev, Chernenko and Andropov. Similarly, it's a favored tactic of the current crop of those who would use the Church as a tool to promote their sexual and secularizing ideologies. A totalitarian personality will always resort to these underhanded tactics. Instead of preaching the truth of things to an unbelieving world our "Cardinal Sean" seeks to conform to that world. The Church teaches the dignity of man and of his sexuality. These sad people (GAY -GOOD AS YOU)propogate what is unnatural and destructive to person and anithetical to "community" To the first commenter, who like most cowards, made your disparaging remarks anonymously: What's your point, if indeed you have one? My anomymous comment on "Cardinal Sean" has to be so as I am an orthodox priest serving in an unorthodox archdiocese. Thanks be to Jesus this crew was not in place at the time of the Civil War. The South would still be flying the Confederate flag. Wonderful analogy, Carol! Besides, "this crew" probably would justify slavery as part of the price for not going to war...which, come to think of it, is what you're saying. :) BTW, have you ever considered making a formal complaint to the Papal Nuncio about O'Malley's apparent recklessness? My anomymous comment on "Cardinal Sean" has to be so as I am an orthodox priest serving in an unorthodox archdiocese. Which, I assume, means that you would suffer retribution, otherwise? Mahony did the same thing in Los Angeles. Boy, these "princes of the Church" sure think alike, don't they? Who cares about being "progressive" or "traditionalist" when you can intimidate people who disagree w/you. Maybe "Cardinal Sean" should exchange his brown cassock for a black pinstriped suit and a fedora. Then he should Italianize his last name. Thus would he be a more accurate depiction of what he truly represents and is. Of course, some knee-high black boots and a Gestapo uniform would do the trick, as well. So would an olive-green uniform w/a red star on the front of the peaked cap... "My anomymous comment on "Cardinal Sean" has to be so as I am an orthodox priest serving in an unorthodox archdiocese." I was making reference to the very first comment on this page, which was also made anonymously, not to the specific comments about Cardinal Sean. You didn't make disparaging remarks, the first commenter did. Apologies for any offense to the good Father, as none was intended. No offense taken. In our parish we have special devotion to the "Little Flower." May the Lord Bless you. No offense taken. The "Little Flower" has always been a favorite of mine. I wish the Cardinal would make our Archdiocese a missionary Church instead of a secular PR machine. May God continue to bless you. My anomymous # You aren't another limp wristed cleric seeking to defame the church, are you? I am SURE it just could not be a JESUIT, right? Who are the bullies? Bravo, Carol!!! Thank you Father, I will pray for you, as I do for all priests. You have your work cut out for you. If the cardinal won't make yours a missionary parish, any chance of becoming a personal parish? I'm not exactly sure how that works, but perhaps it's another option. O'malley should have never enabled and empowered this group at St Cecilia's parish. It is run by a homosexual activist, one Richard Ianolli masquerading as a Roman Catholic parishoner there. This personage is intellectually and spiritually dishonest. His position is ludicrous - akin to belonging to a labor union but being unalterably oppossed to collective bargaining!. As the fist comment suggests, this post is so illiterate as to be almost unreadable. However I felt the need to respond to this garbage: "The last thing we need are statements coming from the Archdiocese validating acumen [sic] that Catholics-at-large want the Catholic religion to be reserved for heterosexuals. People are hurt by this message...Can't they see that they are the ones inflicting wounds? " People are hurt by this message? How myopic and hypocritical do you have to be to say "people are hurt" by THIS message when the Roman Catholic Church has spent centuries vilifying and persecuting gay, lesbian and transgender people, a campaign which continues to this day? And as for wounds inflicted, look to the extraordinarily high rate of suicide among young queer people, and the studies which demonstrate highly religious families are more dangerous for such youth. The wounds caused here are by the irrational mistreatment of queer people by this powerful and unaccountable institution: an institution so venal that it has attempted a systematic cover-up of the worldwide abuse and torture of defenseless children. Anyone who still associates themselves with the Catholic hierarchy after such extraordinary criminality is morally bankrupt, so no wonder why you take this wicked and sickening stance when it comes to welcoming and affirming human beings who are different. Shame on you. James, when Jesus encountered the prostitutes and the tax collectors, He not only embraced them, but He also admonished them to "go, and sin no more". If "queer" people, (your terminology, not mine) want to seek forgiveness and healing, that is one thing, but to insist that a disordered lifestyle be made acceptable is quite another. Those who suffer same-sex attraction carry a cross unlike any other. But if "welcoming" these suffering brothers and sisters means embracing their lifestyle and insistence on accepting it, this would more accurately fit the description of morally bankrupt. Our Lady of Fatima said that more people go to Hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason. I don't want to go to Hell, and I certainly don't want anyone else to go there. If the desire to save souls is seen as hateful and wicked, well, Jesus never said it would be easy. There is no charity in condoning sex between people of the same gender. I agree with Jack O'Malley - the only way that Mass could have been permitted to take place is if that message was going to be delivered. If you don't cherish the disgusting things they do with one another, you're "hateful", "illiterate", "bigoted" and in need of some psychological help. Homosexuality is a mental illness and that manifests itself every time they go on parade demanding that you accept their buggery. James, Catholics have not done a very good job of getting the message across to the gay community that all are welcome at every Mass and every parish every day of the week. The teachings of the Church are tough for every one of us in our own little worlds but as a community, we want to hear them and we want our families to hear them. As difficult as they are, the Catholic religion is a promise, a fiat, to live our lives by these teachings. Things start to go awry when there's an effort to silence the teachings and this is certainly not limited to moral teaching on sexuality. Women object to the teachings on contraception, abortion, etc. Divorced people who are not annulled have to live a celibate life. This is no different than what the Church asks of people with same-sex attraction. It isn't mean or spiteful for the people in the pews beside us to want their religion preserved in it's entirety, even if it is a terrible burden to us. Fr. Unni is doing a disservice to his Christ, His Church and the people sitting in his pews, the Sacred Liturgy and to the unity of all Catholics. James Croft: the Roman Catholic Church has spent centuries vilifying and persecuting gay, lesbian and transgender people, James, this is a blatant lie. The Church has only ever condemned homosexual acts. Further, you must realise that your statement about "transgendered" people is risible on the face of it. First, "transgender" surgery is a modern phenomenon of the medical art and is not centuries old. Second, "transgendered" people are not so in fact as a simple DNA test will attest. Third, the Church condemns mutilation of the body, the temple of the Holy Ghost, even such mutilation as tattoos. How much more ought "transgender" surgery to be condemned. For "gay" and lesbian (alas that the sublime lyricism of Sappho should have ever after tarnished the name of that beautiful island!) people are called by the Church to the same moral strictures as are unmarried heterosexuals. That is to say, to chastity. "Transgendered" people must have contrition when confessing the sin of mutilation of their bodies, since repair of that mutilation is not possible. Can a Catholic active homosexual devoutly pray the Rosary or say the Angelus with the knowledge that his or her acts make a mockery of Our Lady's chaste and sinless life? Do you now begin to understand that your invective is blasphemy towards God, the Creator and King of the Universe, the Stablisher of the Moral Law? That it reviles His Only-begotten Son whose chaste Life, whose Passion, Death and Resurrection, whose founding of His Church upon Peter were for the sake of your redemption? Or are you so sunken in the slough of sin that you longer care to be redeemed? James Croft, I have a question for you. If anyone wants to offer true compassion to an alcoholic friend, does he buy that friend a beer? Of course not, for he'd be only greasing the skids as his friend accelerates his dreadful decline to destruction. Rather, he would do anything to help him overcome his vile habit. True compassion towards those with same-sex attractions would be to help them overcome those disordered attractions, not to inculcate them. Our Lord welcomed sinners where they were - but He never allowed them to remain where they were. He always - always - challenged them to repentance. James, I followed your profile and noticed that you're an atheist. Therefore, you cannot possibly appeal to an objective standard of right versus wrong, as such transcends human consensus. I wonder then, how you can, with a straight face, tell Catholics that they "should be ashamed". That doesn't fly, my friend, and I'm not letting you get away with that! I don't know who said this, but I think it bears repeating: "Those who live like there's no God, better be right." They aren't of course. I pray that you and all atheists/humanists come to realization of the truth. Jack, your confusion of transgender people with people who have had sex change operations demonstrates you profound ignorance of this subject - at last seek to inform yourself before telling people how to live their lives. As for this - "The Church has only ever condemned homosexual acts" - tell that to the people who have been murdered, mutilated, subjected to fake 'medical' procedures, ostracized, and prevented from seeking political office by people inspired by their religious commitments as shaped by the Catholic Church. In what alternate universe do you live? I have absolutely no fear of your non-existent God. I only fear hateful bigots like you who seek to enforce your morality on others through social stigma and the courts. LOL. That's the price you have to pay for 'we welcome all'! James, again, being an atheist, you have no standard of right vs wrong, love vs hate, that transcends the whims and fancies of human beings. Therefore, you have no intellectual basis to accuse anyone of being "hateful bigots". Anyone who has murdered or maimed anybody has NOT been "shaped by the Catholic Church", your slanderous statements not withstanding. Those acts are condemned by the Church roundly. As far as "seeking political office", they can - and do -seek such office. Now whether or not people vote for them is another matter, but please understand that the voters can vote for whomever they wish and for whatever reason they deem best (psst! They have rights, too!). Speaking of other people having rights, I do believe the original topic regarded a Catholic Mass. Well the Catholic hierarchy has a right to determine what will be acceptable practices within their churches, like it or lump it. It is those who seek to disenfranchise Catholics of the right to the free practice of their faith who are the true "hateful bigots". "It is those who seek to disenfranchise Catholics of the right to the free practice of their faith who are the true "hateful bigots"." Do you include the archdiocese of Boston in this description then? Since it was they who prevented the Catholics at St Cecelia's from practicing their faith as they understood ot. I am the one defending their right to practice in this instance! "being an atheist, you have no standard of right vs wrong, love vs hate, that transcends the whims and fancies of human beings. Therefore, you have no intellectual basis to accuse anyone of being "hateful bigots"." Reality provides plenty of evidence regarding what promotes human flourishing and what does not, and this provides the only basis for morality we need or can hope to have. Since there is no good evidence that the entity you credit with providing a foundation for morality actually exists, you are the one without intellectual basis here - your worldview is based on a fantasy! James, Fr. Unni's ministry at St. Cecelia's is perverting the Catholic religion. The Archdiocese was forced to act when the fraud was exposed. So, you have it wrong. The Catholics who asked that Christs Holy Sacrifice of the Mass be protected from theological perversion are the people who are protecting the free right to practice our religion. You cannot convince people who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and have felt His presence as surely as they have felt the sun on their faces that Christ is a fantasy. It is as laughable as telling a microbiologist that there is no such thing as germs because you can't see them. The teachings of the Catholic Church and the people who want to hear them is what will prevail until the end of time. That victory was won for us by Christ's Death and Resurrection. You're talking to the descendants of 2000 years worth of martyrs. Viva Christo Rey. James Croft predictably pontificated: tell that to the people who have been murdered, mutilated, subjected to fake 'medical' procedures, ostracized, and prevented from seeking political office by people inspired by their religious commitments as shaped by the Catholic Church. You're right. How could I have been so blind. The Church did all of those things? Or "inspired" them? The clerical state has always been a haven for homos. You are a bigot of the first order and not worth responding to. In what alternate universe do you live? In the only one created by God and subject to His immutable Law. I have absolutely no fear of your non-existent God.? You are a lost soul in this world and the next. You already know you are lost in this world now, don't you? How many failed relationships have you had? How many sordid encounters with unknowns? When will you tire of your squalid mode of living and yearn for something more permanent. The Gospel will be there for you. And you will read it as you grow older and lonelier. The Lord will not abandon you though you have temporarily abandoned Him. I only fear hateful bigots like you who seek to enforce your morality on others through social stigma and the courts. I impose no morality on anyone. You can do with your backside what you will. The arse evolved to be a one-way street, pal. It takes no morality to figure that out, just the natural law. I thought you purported to be Catholic. You aren't. So go to buggery for all I care. And the courts? LOL! Do you live in the Commonwealth of Sodomchusetts? The perversion of invert "marriage" was imposed by the courts! Social stigma? What about the miscreants and their lurid ostentations during that abominable parade? There was a time the whole lot of them would have been arrested. That time will come again as the world regains its sanity. Come back with more venom if you must. Clamato in podicem catamiti tui. Ego tibi non auscultabo. Anyone who has murdered or maimed anybody has NOT been "shaped by the Catholic Church", your slanderous statements not withstanding. Those acts are condemned by the Church roundly. DC, have you ever heard of Joan of Arc or the Albigensian Crusade? Have you ever heard of the phrase, "Kill them all; God will know his own"? How about the murderous intrigue that permeated the Vatican for centuries? I'm not saying that those atrocities justify James Croft's attitudes toward homosexuality or Catholicism. But people must be honest about history. I pity you, Jack O'Malley. So much hatred, and a disturbing obsession with others' sex lives. I so hope one day the light of reason will burn the scales from your eyes and you will know what it is to see clearly. Adversus solem ne loquitor. Veritas vos liberabit. James, Fr. Unni and people like him have been passing out the kookaid that Christ and His Church hate but he 'loves'. His mind is tangled up in his violations of the First Commandment. He is feeding your anger and rebellion from God so that you will idolize him. He and people like him prevent listeners from the understanding that people who try to guide us from doing harm to our soul and separating us from God are acts of love, not hate. But like a loving mother who will tell you not to ride your bike without a helmet - the advice isn't borne out of hate, but love. If Unni had his head screwed on straight, he would and could heal you of your anger. You are paying the heavy price for his obstacle to seeing God's love. In fact, we all are paying that price. Joseph - when we are talking about just war where people suffering evil and oppression under a dictator, of course God is on one side of that conflict. Yes, God inspires and will supply the people freeing the oppressed. James is taking this out of context and liken it to what He feels, i.e., Divine Law is 'killing his spirit'. It's a bogus comparison. I'm on my way to work so I want everyone to be on their best behavior in the com boxes. The RCC hierarchy has been criminally tolerant of the homosexual abusers within the clergy. The recent John Jay study shows that 81% of the clerical abuse cases were same sex abuse against post pubescent males. This tolerance of homosexual acts by the RCC hierarchy cries out to heaven. Poor James at war with reality and our given nature. Biology is not bigotry! Things are as they are and no amount of self deception makes them otherwise. We must love creation and not be at war against it. It's people like you that make me very happy I left the Catholic faith a long time ago. I'll never be back. You haven't got a chance with fraud And might as well be true to God! Joe, If you've left it then it's time to give up the obsession with the RCC. Mr. Croft's and your Catholic bashing must fill a pyschic emptiness that (for secularists like yourselves) can only be addressed by a sensitive professional in a therapeutic setting. Good luck in finding one. It's an astonishing state of mind which considers principled criticism of a hugely powerful and largely unaccountable institution to be a sign of psychological problems. A demonstration of extraordinary arrogance, in fact. Do you think that gay people should just remain silent while they are denigrated and cast out, while it is made clear they are not welcome, while they are termed "disordered" and "pathological"? I, for one, refuse to allow this immoral institution to insult me and people like me without speaking up. You would do the same were you shown such a lack of compassion. Tennessee Williams compared the homosexual compulsion to "needing a fix" and to "the stabbibng of a hypo needle". All civilizations and peoples have had strictures against homosexuality as destructive to the person and to civilization. It is not the institution of the RCC. Natural law is a reality. Try holding your breathe!! If your criticism was directed at the homosexual clerical abuse and the hierarchy's enabling of such acts, then you would be on very principled ground indeed. However, your rage against the Magisterium's perennial teaching (based on biblical and natural law grounds) against homosexual acts is grounded in sexual and political ideology at best-as a personal obsession it very well may require a therapeutic response. Let's repeat the teaching of the Church for the benefit of those blinded by their own unbridled lechery (one of the deadly sins): Homosexual orientation is objectively disordered. Clearly true as its object is not the opposite sex and cannot lead to the generation of new life. Homosexual acts are intrinsically evil. True again as they are a perversion of God's purpose in creation. Incidentally, acts of sodomy between a man and a woman are also condemned by the Church. A married couple is also called to chastity. The term "psychopathology" has not been used by the Church. I used the term in its Greek sense, i.e. sickness of the soul. This is also true since that sickness leads to a rejection of God and the Law of God. Dura lex, sed lex. That Law was promulgated both in the Old Testament and in the New. The cure is a life of prayer and chastity. Those who so hate the teachings of the Church, which are the teachings of Christ, that they flout their vice in Catholic venues are clearly deeply troubled and soul-sick. They are seeking approbation of their errors. To interpret correctly another commenter's Latin adage: they are speaking against the sun (the natural law) and against the Son (the Divine Law). The Truth (Christ) will indeed set you free; Error (Satan) will enslave you. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Place your trust in Him. Sometimes it takes a lifetime to learn this. Joseph D'Hippolito, Your mentioning of the lamentable massacre of Béziers and the revolting command of Arnaud Amaury recalled the old Dominican joke: -- What are the similarities between the Jesuits and the Dominicans? -- They were both founded by Spaniards, the Dominicans by St. Dominic and the Jesuits by St. Ignatius of Loyola. They both fought heretics, the Domincans the Albigenses and the Jesuits the Protestants. -- And what are the differences? -- Seen any Albigensians lately? Sometimes the sword is mightier than the pen. Wyndham Lewis in the 1920's forsaw the destruction of the family with attacks on male's ability to reason. He foresaw the feminization of the male predicting the plague of of pathics and the neuter gender now upon us- "At twenty-five, thirty-five and forty-five one still sees them pouting lisping and sobbing spread eagled on their backs helpless and inviting caresses like a bald stomached dog." THE ART OF BEING RULED James Croft, I'm not a homosexual yet I feel embarassed by the insults you had to endure on this thread. Those responses do not reflect what Christian love should be (see I Corinthians 13: 1-13). James, if Jesus met you, He would not treat you the way that many on this thread have. Nor would he approve of homosexuality. But in the final analysis, those are separate issues. People can love others while disagreeing with their opinions by not engaging in personal insults that have nothing to do w/the issue at hand. Many "gay" apologists engage in the same behavior. They say that questioning the social wisdom of supporting same-sex marriage is the exact same thing as supporting the brutalization and murder of Matthew Sheperd. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The former is a legitimate challenge to the "gay" perspective on how best to govern society; the latter is nothing more than evil. Many people (like myself) who question the idea of same-sex marriage want nothing to do w/Sheperd's tormentors. What they did was evil regardless of who their victim was. I've read WLewis. He was remarkably insightful and on the verge of entering the Church as evident in his last works. His friend, the greatest lyrical poet of the 2oth century Roy Campbell became a convert to the Church. In the Georgiad campbell had some wonderful lines about the decline of civilization and art that Lewis spoke to deeming them - Intellectual without intellect And sexless folk whose sexes intersect. Mr. D'Hippolito, You may very well have a job as a dissembling spokesman for the Archdiocese of Boston. Your broad brushed allegation of personal attacks is shameful. There are very strong indictments of homosexuality. There are very pointed critiques of the homosexual movement and their anti-Catholic agenda. However, unlike Mr. Croft's personal characterizations of faithful Catholics as "illiterates", "garbage", "morally bankrupt" and "criminals", your indictment does not hold up to scrutiny. There is no charity in attempting to portray sinful acts as virtue. Joseph D'Hippolito, I will pass over your attempt to seize the high ground for display of your own hubris. You clearly know far better than we slugs slithering in the slime what Jesus would or would not do. But The Little Way reminds us what Jesus actually did do: He told them to go and sin no more. It has been pointed out on this thread ad nauseam that homosexual acts are indeed sin, whereas homosexual orientation unacted upon is not. But Mr. Croft as a free-thinking free-feeling free-acting free-mouthing atheistic ignoramus has brought his bigotry, his irrational and uninformed hatred for the Catholic Church to this blog and has personally insulted his hostess on top of it. Will you at least join me in reproving his bumptious discourtesy towards a woman and dereliction as a gentleman? But I for one will counter his vitriol against the Church even if you will not. I will merely quote for you a relevant verse from the chapter you chose to puff yourself up as the quintessence of non-judgemental always-be-nice Christian charity. Viz., [Caritas] non gaudet super iniquitatem, congaudet autem veritati ([Charity] does not rejoice in iniquity but rejoices with the truth). As you are a thumper for St. Paul, will you now quote his condemnation of homosexual acts for our Christian edification? The relevant Epistles would be Romans, Galatians as well as that selfsame First Corinthians you have just used to hector us. I leave you to find chapter and verse. Michael, where have I ever tried to "portray sinful acts as virtue"? For that matter where have I ever said that homosexuality was acceptable? You accuse me of making "broad-brush allegations personal attacks," yet you do the same thing! Jack O'Malley, knowing what Jesus "would or would not do" is not "hubris." All you have to do is read the NT. Just as The Little Way said, Jesus didn't condemn the adulteress but told her not to sin anymore. If His behavior is consistent, then He would have behaved the same way w/James. He ate and drank with "tax collectors and sinners" because He wanted to make God's love accessable to them. It's that love that will make them change. The "cure" is not an act of the will. The cure is God's Spirit changing the homosexual from within. If you find that to be "non-judgmental always-be-nice Christian charity," then you would have a problem with SS Matthew and Paul, among others, who experienced this "cure" from within for their own sins (and, no, homosexuality was not one of those sins). Christians are called to imitate Christ, right Jack? If we are called to imitate Him, that means we have to know what He would or would not do, right? On a more practical level, just because James Croft behaves like a jerk doesn't mean that those who claim to be Christians have the prerogative to behave in kind. The Church doesn't need you to defend it, Michael and Jack. It has survived 2,000-plus years w/o either of you. It will survive another 2,000 years...unless God decides to punish it for forsaking its Petrine commission for secular power, prestige and influence. The pity is that the vast majority of Catholics don't see it coming. Don't believe me? Look up the vision of Leo XIII. As Belloc said Christ was not a "milk sop". He also whipped paople out of the temple. The greatest charity is to speak truth to an unbelieving world. All of the comments on this site were temperate and reasoned with the exception of the person who calls people illiterate and was aptly educated about many things including Whydham Lewis. Joseph, Well, at least you admit Mr. Croft is a jerk. One step at a time. But the Church does need Michael and me, and you too Joe. It needs Mr. Croft as well. His presence here betokens an eventual conversion. Trust me. I'll tell you what. As a concession to your liberal Catholicism, I'm going to take an IRS agent to lunch next week. He lives down the street so I don't have to go into the highways and byways to look for a publican. Besides, in Ireland, a "publican" is a man of highest merit. I'd take a prostitute to lunch too, but Mrs. O'Malley wouldn't let me put it on my "New Evangelization" expense account. But enough of these ephemeral ecclesiastical disputes. The Bruins are up 4-0 in the first intermission. I still have the faith. BTW, Joe, where are those Pauline cites you were going to furnish? Mr. D'Hippolito: The giving of aid and comfort to a rabid anti-Catholic, under the guise of charity and compassion, I characterize as a vice disguising itself as a virtue. That you reject homosexuality, as one of the four sins that cries out to heaven, is welcome news. However, it does not mitigate attempts to protect an ideological anti-Catholic's "feelings". Our Lord did not help relocate the moneychangers from the Temple by means of a social program or small business loans. He turned over their tables and opened up a can of "kick-ass" on them. The plague of sexual depravity cannot be coddled. Yes, the teaching of the Church is compassionate, however the characterization of the sin cannot be watered down. Sorry, there are five sins which cry out to heaven, #] The refernce to Jesus and his opening of the can of "kick-ass" may actually have been a can of "whoop-ass". Biblical scholars are divided on the issue. The effects are the same. So Carol, Father Unni says he is hurt by the bloggers who spoke out against him and his parish. If the archdiocese in its spokesman is not going to teach the Truth, do you think the Boston Bloggers could write an op-ed piece together detailing the very good reasons for the Catholic teaching on homosexuality? I'm serious. Some one has to tell the Truth, and it looks like God has put you into a position to do it. M M, Me thinks that is his Bishop's job. There are more developments on this story coming in the next few days so stay tuned. Meanwhile, there are more gripping photos of Weiner and a debate to talk about. I was tied up and couldn't watch. Was it a disaster? What do you mean, there are more developments coming? Such as? "Priest says all are welcome in his church Supports gays, lesbians after Mass was canceled June 13, 2011 By Laura J. Nelson, Globe Correspondent "About 200 members of the congregation wore buttons that displayed a cross…Sunday Mass at St. Cecilia’s Church in the Back Bay brought the first standing ovation any parishioner could remember. During the first Mass since the Archdiocese of Boston canceled one planned for next weekend in support of St. Cecilia’s gay and lesbian churchgoers, the.’ ’’ BOSTON.COM America Magazine is, what else, pleased as punch.Looks like this story is far from over., as heterosexuals, the first concern one might want to have, rather than looking outwards, to the homosexual, is to look inwards, to see how well or how poorly, I am responding to the teachings of the church regarding my attitude and treatment of homosexuals? Am I known, for my respect, compassion, and sensitivity towards homosexuals? Do I avoid EVERY sign of unjust discrimination in their regard? Am I known for this? People won't approach me if I'm known for judgmental finger pointing but thankfully, I am not allowed to do that, as a catholic, am I? Do I befriend and encourage, through my own lived out example of self mastery and Christian witness, to a homosexual person that helps them to know and believe and begin to trust, in a God who loves them so much? Do I believe God loves them, truly? Do I love them, truly? Have I allowed the Holy Spirit to shine His light on my heart in this area? To know me, to root out any prejudice I may have harboured along the way? Personally, I find often, that by the time I tidy up my side of the street, it's much easier to see what's really tripping me up. I can be long sighted sometimes, when all the while the garbage that needs picking up and dealing with is right under my own nose, on my side of the pavement! still, I'm a work in progrees, like most of us, I guess. But when people are using the Church to justify their sin then we must speak out. This is the essence of charity. As to applause in Church, something is wrong - the crowd always prefers a Barrabus to Christ! Patrick said: "But when people are using the Church to justify their sin then we must speak out. This is the essence of charity." Oh yes, I agree. When people are doing that, we must definitely speak out, or comment. The radical homosexual movement has identified the RCC as Enemy#1. They use calumny, distortion and unbridled hatred to achieve their goal to, at a minimum, quarantine Roman Catholics from the public square. Of course, the perennial teaching of the RCC has been compassion in dealing with the individual homosexual person, as outlined beautifully in then Cardinal Ratzinger's CDF statement:"On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons". However, when faced with a political and ideological campaign by extremists, faithful Catholiics must not be disarmed in responding to campaigns to neuter the Church's Magisterium. We must respond forcefully, swiftly and with all the tools in our arsenals. I was amazed by the restraint that commentators on this blog used in responding effectively to the anti-Catholic extremists. Breathnach said :"I was amazed by the restraint that commentators on this blog used in responding effectively to the anti-Catholic extremists." Really? I didn't find the responses that restrained myself, for example.... 'Homosexuality is a mental illness and that manifests itself every time they go on parade demanding that you accept their buggery.' 'Tennessee Williams compared the homosexual compulsion to "needing a fix" and to "the stabbibng of a hypo needle". ? ' 'Of course, some knee-high black boots and a Gestapo uniform would do the trick, as well. So would an olive-green uniform w/a red star on the front of the peaked cap...' 'Do you now begin to understand that your invective is blasphemy towards God, the Creator and King of the Universe....... Or are you so sunken in the slough of sin that you longer care to be redeemed?' 'The Church teaches the dignity of man and of his sexuality. These sad people (GAY -GOOD AS YOU)propogate what is unnatural and destructive to person and anithetical to "community"' 'Poor James at war with reality and our given nature. Biology is not bigotry! Things are as they are and no amount of self deception makes them otherwise.' 'Mr. Croft's and your Catholic bashing must fill a pyschic emptiness that (for secularists like yourselves) can only be addressed by a sensitive professional in a therapeutic setting. Good luck in finding one.' 'It is not the institution of the RCC. Natural law is a reality. Try holding your breathe!!'. shadow, Your litany of perceived slights against homosexuals is without merit. The following are taken from the aforementioned CDF statement on the care of homosexual persons. They are more hard hitting than some of the polemics you have quoted from commentators: ." Now I will address my contribution that you single out as, I suppose,uncharitable: 'Mr. Croft's and your Catholic bashing must fill a pyschic emptiness that (for secularists like yourselves) can only be addressed by a sensitive professional in a therapeutic setting. Good luck in finding one.' I completely stand by this statement. It in no way slurs Croft or the other person for their homosexuality, instead it attacks their ideological and hateful methods of attack against Catholics as..."haters" "criminals" and "illiterates". I do believe unbridled rage is a spiritual and pyschic disease, therefore I suggested a secular remedy for their rage. Shadowlands, Your quote from the CCC is incomplete and I question your dubious editorial license. The other relevant quotes from the CCC. Michael, you question my alleged dubious editing do you? Perhaps you find it hard to trust people generally? Let me say, I did not pick and choose to 'win' an argument. You don't have to justify the way you talk to and about homosexuals, to me. Only to God. I have not said what I have said, to get into a battle with you all. I have said it, because I believe it. Whatever the outcome of what I say, is not in my power, nor indeed any of my business. But I could not stay silent, in this instance, without being dishonest to my own professed beliefs. I have said what it is in my heart. Shadowlands, Pointing out passages (that are directly relevant) from the CCC was not intended to enter a "battle" with you. I don't consider civil discussions military confrontations. My "trust quotient" does not come into play when engaging in rational arguments on the internet. I scrutinized your posting and did find your selective quotation to be woefully inadequate. There's no need to search within the dark recesses of my soul in hopes of finding a paranoid. Shadowlands (Terrae umbrosae),. For your penance, say three Our Fathers and three Hail Marys and make a good Act of Contrition. Go and sin no more. Sentire cum Ecclesia, Shadowlands. Sentire cum Ecclesia. Now you have the Latin for your Lewis-inspired moniker. A gift from me to you. God bless you. Gentlemen, You've been busy, busy! I don't completely subscribe to Joe and shadowland's assertions, but come on, let us admit that a few of those quotes are a wee bit over the top. I understand this man's pain comes from feeling rejection, but an atheist from out of town using bullying to imply the teachings of the Catholic Church have no place in the Catholic Church is going to get a push back. It's tough to find the right balance between using the opportunity to bandage his wounds while still making it clear the teachings of the Church will be proclaimed. As Fr. Unni and his congregation demonstrate, people who want the teachings of the Church taught are the furthest thing from welcome - so 'we welcome all' is a lot of hooey. This is not something that we can continue. Would they ban and burn Tennesee Williams and all his works? And the great truth teller W.Lewis ad all his art and books would they be put to the flame too because he affirmed our basic human nature? These people are really haters of reality and totalitarians! To Fr Unni Thou art in error, trouble me not with your righteousness. The Church has innocense to defend and ignorance to instruct. If Fr Unni cannot accept the beautiful teachings of the RCC on human sexuality then why has he not the courage to leave the Church instead of being a hypocrite? Resign! Shadowlands, Please check out the Boston Globe comments section whenever a story involving the RCC is posted. You will see an orgy of hatred, abuse and vileness against RCC clergy and laity that is disgusting to behold. The majority of this vileness is committed by homosexual activists who are committed to the destruction of the Church. Your compassion for anti-Catholics and homosexual extremists might be useful in trying to get through to these diseased souls. Just a friendly suggestion for a possible avenue of evangelization. The important thing to remember is the faithfulness of the laity have achived this great reprimand and victory over the secularist priest Fr Unni. Unlike the Roman Catholic Church which challenges us to reorder ourselves and repent Fr Unni preaches a regeneration which requires neither repentence nor an inward reordering. Jack O'Malley said: ." Just redressing the balance Mr O'Malley, just redressing the balance. Thank you for the Latin form of my username, but when I looked it up, it said something other than shadowlands though? I love C S Lewis, but in a very amateurish and unlearned way compared to most of his adherents. I've been to his birthplace in Ireland and Oxford and Headington (the Kilns), I prayed at his grave and had a wonderful experience of his presence(peace) and I also knelt in his pew (actually, it was his brother Warnie's seat, I got mixed up). Oh sorry, I've gone down a rabbit hole. Ooops! I do do that. It's from being chased away so often maybe haha! "I understand this man's pain comes from feeling rejection, but an atheist from out of town using bullying to imply the teachings of the Catholic Church have no place in the Catholic Church is going to get a push back." I am not meaningfully "from out of town" anymore - I've lived and worked here for years, and I do not see what I have said as "bullying". I have used strong words to express my moral condemnation of the Catholic Church and particularly its current hierarchy, but since I'm in a minority here it's hard to argue I have any power to "bully" others. I stand by what I have said, and proudly. It is my considered judgment that the RCC causes enormous suffering and misery to millions and is complicity in a criminal coverup of numerous cases of child abuse, torture and (as is coming out now) essentially trafficking and slavery. The current Pope is directly implicated in some of this - we have all seen the offending documents and witnessed the continuing refusal to work with law enforcement. Given this appalling record I find it hypocritical and rank to the highest degree for the same institution to lecture people like me on sexual morality - a parable involving beams and motes comes to mind. The stunningly grotesque responses my position has evoked is evidence of real heat around this issue - more heat than I have ever seen expended by a Catholic against the current pedophile-protecting Pope. Priorities, people? Some here have suggested I'm angry - and to an extent I am. I'm angry at any institution that wallows in injustice and refuses to bring criminals to heel. I'd expect the same anger from any moral person. But I am not consumed with rage. I simply seek a more just world and realize that a certain amount of righteous anger is a useful tool to motivate action. Further, numerous individuals here have displayed profound ignorance regarding gay and transgender people, confusing transgender people with those who have had a sex change (not the same!) and assuming all gay people engage in anal sex (or 'sodomy') when many do not - believe me, it's a hassle! I do not believe that when I make love to a partner /partners what I am doing is either "disgusting" or "disordered". Even if it were, it doesn't harm anybody else and gives the participants great pleasure. Even if I accepted Catholic metaphysics (which are backed by zero evidence) it's my choice to live my life as I wish. I expect others to grant me the dignity of allowing me to make my own choices as long as they don't harm others. To judge and condemn others whom you do not even remotely understand is wicked. To do so with such glee and relish is simply evil. Not all Catholics behave in this way, and many interpret their faith in such a way that does allow others dignity and freedom. I exempt Joseph from this criticism, for example, because he seems to understand how to engage in a reasonable discussion. Those who seek to denigrate people like me, and who then attempt to hide behind false horror when someone takes them and the institution they support to task, are acting disingenuously. We are both making moral judgments here: it's just that mine are based squarely in the real world. shadowlands, we all appreciate and welcome your contributions. The conversation is lively for sure, but not venomous - even from James at this point. James, What you don't realize is, all of us have been in your shoes. Not about this teaching of course, but certainly others. As a woman, the 'all male priesthood' went right to the heart of my personhood and I felt cast off in similar ways that gays feel. The teachings define who I sleep with, when, how and they even define the quality of that sexual act, in that I must be open to life. The difference between you and other readers here is, the struggle is over for us. Our love for God grew so deeply that we no longer approach the relationship with selfish desires. Just like in a human relationship, we give things up because He asks us to and we want to please Him. Into His Hands, we commend our spirit. We understand all too well the feelings you have. The teachings of Christ's Church are what they are. You have every 'right' to believe whatever the culture wants to lead you to believe. These are your civil rights. Our Mass is the Holy Sacrifice of Christ, His Passion and His Death and His Resurrection. Celebrations of who we're sleeping with, in rebellion of Church teaching don't belong there. If you're going to stampede our Sanctuaries insisting we accept what the culture is teaching you, the fur is going to start flying and the priests poisoning the souls in the pew are going to find themselves in an embarrassing position. It's an internal fight that has to be fought. Please accept our apologies for how the newspapers pick the story up and use it to manipulate your emotions. We have no control over it. We want the teachings of the Church proclaimed to us and our children and our community. These are the civil rights of Roman Catholics. It's non-negotiable. btw - You're not going to get any argument from me or anyone here about the internal corruption inside of the Church. What you say is exaggerated, but there are many inside of the Church who are corrupt and downright evil. Many of us are working on that corruption. Just like the government is stacked to the rafters with the corrupt, that doesn't then vilify the institution itself. Weiners and the perverts like him have nothing to do with our Constitution and three branches of government. The Roman Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. The are vultures, thieves and perverts have nothing to do with the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity that Christ left for us. One must repent and reorder oneself not look for affirmation from others for our sins and in living below our human nature. I tried putting batteries in a radio backward and it does not work. All societies have condemned homosexaulity. Socrates called the a disorder the most unholy of things. It is a distateful vulgarity to be parading that age old sin and expecting accolades from civil order. "The conversation is lively for sure, but not venomous - even from James at this point." Nor has it ever been "venomous" from me, I think. It's interesting the double standards that pervade here. "The difference between you and other readers here is, the struggle is over for us." I assure you, I experience no sense of struggle whatsoever. The continual assumption that those with different beliefs are just more or less on the way to believing what you believe is very arrogant. I have a completely different set of premises to you, which I find entirely satisfactory. I don't experience a "struggle" which needs to be resolved. An essential difference between my position and yours is that mine is more life-affirming. I accept people's choices regarding their own lives, and affirm them when they produce joy and satisfaction. You would have people like me deny themselves happiness for an unsure future reward. It's very very unconvincing. It's also damaging. Young queer people feel miserable and hated when they hear these messages, regardless how "nicely" they are put. The message that you are inherently disordered and sick is not possible to sugar-coat. Plenty of empirical evidence demonstrates the devastating effects these messages have. Given that the teachings of the RCC regarding homosexuality are not supported by any evidence whatsoever, it is particularly pernicious that they are so forcefully promoted. Simply put, these teachings harm real people in this life. There is no way that they can be presented that they will not. There is a moral responsibility here to consider the damage that you are doing. They feel miserable because it is disordered and one will never find happiness there. They hurt themselves but the Church offers the blood of the lamb all we sinners must be washed in. You have to open your heart to Love and not go around declaring you are better than anyone else. The Church's teaching are difficult as Chesterton said but not impossibe. It is rather sanity preached to a planet of lunatics. I was touched and deeply moved by one writer's comments in this blog from Tennessee Williams, a non catholic on the very nature of this compulsion which cries out for help.. Malcolm said: (to me, re visiting the Boston Globe combox)) "Your compassion for anti-Catholics and homosexual extremists might be useful in trying to get through to these diseased souls. Just a friendly suggestion for a possible avenue of evangelization." I find your description of homosexuals as diseased souls particularly offensive Malcolm, God only knows how hurtful these insulting terms are to the fearfully and wonderfully made creation(God's description of his son or daughter) affected personally by them. Re your suggestion of evangelisation in other comboxes, my asking Catholics to search their own hearts with the light of the Holy Spirit didn't go down too well, why would you suppose I would have more success with non-believers or anti-catholics? If I go there proclaiming a God reconciling man to Himself, yet am unable to be reconciled with you, my fellow brother in Christ, how foolish would that appear? Nope, I'll stick with the calling I feel God has given me. To encourage Catholics and Christians to search their own hearts first, repent to Jesus Christ of any prejudice and ill treatment, through the use of word, action or deed, towards LGBT people, then let homosexuals know that they are loved very dearly, by God and also Our Lady(because that is the truth). Catholics and Christians 'tell' homosexuals to repent, how about we show them, through our witness and acknowledgment of wrong doing first? If we resist the call to repent as believers, why would we judge non-believers, for doing the same? Maybe through a diseased soul nesting in our own being, eh? I just think it's a good idea to start with the man/woman in the mirror first. Carol, thanks for providing a forum where a rigorous and humane defense of the Roman Catholic Faith can take place. Unfortunately, there are factions among us, who believe that a supernatural faith is subject to sexual and political ideologies. Any deviation from an affirmation of their predilections is met with a political and social campaign to ostracize. Believing Catholics will not sit by and allow their Faith to be deconstructed by those who would like to eliminate it from the public square. "If I go there proclaiming a God reconciling man to Himself, yet am unable to be reconciled with you, my fellow brother in Christ, how foolish would that appear?" It might appear heroic and saintly. Whereas your continuous proclamations of your superior compassion and preternatural moral acuity vis a vis Catholics on this site, who are calling out for truthful representation of Catholic teaching, seems rather staged. I will leave to God to judge my characterization of "diseased souls". I'm not quite convinced that you will be passing me through the pearly gates. Cordially. "I will leave to God to judge my characterization of "diseased souls"." And will you leave to God too the responsibility for the harm you cause when you use such slurs against fellow human beings? Or do you take moral responsibility for yourself? James, when I choose (or the state coerces me) to subject myself to your secular inquisition, I will present myself for re-education. Till then I stand by my statement. James, being "queer" is by no means the only "disordered" lifestyle in our culture. I did things in my past that the church considers disordered. I answered the call to amend my ways. If you are an atheist, you probably cannot relate to or accept this, but I was willing to give up my own will for something greater. I would submit to you that in our present political culture, it's more acceptable to be "out of the closet" and sexually active with a member of the same sex than it is to be Roman Catholic. My faith has nothing to do with the men who make up the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. It has everything to do with the Foundation of the Church - Jesus Christ - Who, whether you like it or believe it or not - loves you as much as He loves me. There isn't a person who has commented on this blog who hasn't lifted you up in prayer, I guarantee you. When I was wallowing in sin, I rebuked anyone who prayed for me. I can only thank God they ignored me. You may not think you're suffering, just as I was dead-sure I was happy as a lark doing my own will and thumbing my nose at God. I got out of the burning house in time and I don't want anyone else left behind to perish, even you. " I've lived and worked here for years, and I do not see what I have said as "bullying". I have used strong words to express my moral condemnation" "Nor has it ever been "venomous" from me, I think. It's interesting the double standards that pervade here." James, People here in this forum would say the same thing about their moral condemnation. If you're going to dish it out, you can't go boo-hooing about "damage" somebody's counterpoint is doing. Big girls and boys discuss things here. "I assure you, I experience no sense of struggle whatsoever." You say that like it's a good thing - lol. I can tell you from experience, it isn't good. "An essential difference between my position and yours is that mine is more life-affirming." That's your opinion which you are entitled to. For people who believe God is their creator of life and they have surrendered their positions to please Him, we decline opportunities to proclaim your position inside of our Churches. This is the beauty of America and the Constitution. "I accept people's choices regarding their own lives, and affirm them when they produce joy and satisfaction." Wow. You accept people's choices regarding their own lives. Is that right? Well then, I some wonderful news for you: Catholics choose to produce joy and satisfaction when they teach, live by and affirm the teachings of our Church. "You would have people like me deny themselves happiness for an unsure future reward. It's very very unconvincing." Knock yourselves out James. This controversy is about a Roman Catholic priest who is depriving Catholics in the pews the teaching of the Church and their salvation and making the Memorial Service of Christ's Death on the Cross, Our Sacred Liturgy into something that was a theological seduction. He has been stopped. He tried to lie his way out of his embarrassment but everybody in the Catholic Church who is faithful to Church teaching now knows what he is. He has deleted the misleading content of his blog on his parish website. He will be watched and recorded. Under a microscope. His goose is cooked. Not only is his goose cooked, several others who have been misleading souls are scurrying around cleaning up their acts. "It's also damaging. Young queer people feel miserable and hated when they hear these messages, regardless how "nicely" they are put. The message that you are inherently disordered and sick is not possible to sugar-coat. "Simply put, these teachings harm real people in this life. There is no way that they can be presented that they will not. There is a moral responsibility here to consider the damage that you are doing. " What I've been trying to tell you James is, young queer people aren't alone. They are welcome to join women, single Catholics, Sacramentally married Catholics - all who by accepting the Blessed Body and Blood of Our Lord and saying "AMEN" are renewing their vows to remain in communion with the teachings of the Church. What isn't welcome are priest who decline to teach Church teaching to extract money out of your wallets. That's what Fr. Unni is, a fundraiser. We are just as vocal about priests withholding the teachings of contraception and abortion - or any other teaching for that matter. "Given that the teachings of the RCC regarding homosexuality are not supported by any evidence whatsoever, it is particularly pernicious that they are so forcefully promoted. Your problem with that theory is the body of evidence lying natural law and the biology of reproducing. As you say above, you are very, very unconvincing! Shadowland, I consider anyone caught in the vice of any sin somebody whose soul needs a physician. So did Christ. That is why His Church and His priests are called physicians of the soul. I don't think anyone has any delusions that an unrepentant an d hardened sinner of any kind has a reservation in hell waiting for them. The people here know their lives have to stay on course. We are all on our guard watching our flaws and weaknesses and striving not to trip and fall into a temptation. This thread is about a priest, Fr. Unni, who is passing out poisoned kookaid to Catholics and has them imprisoned at St. Cecelia's in a sick state of the soul. I didn't see you around during the last few years when we were complaining about the Chancery stealing worker's pensions or the last ten years of any other subject we've taken up. So, let me assure you of something. We're trying to let people out of Fr. Unni's asylum. Next week, should he cook up a plot to have a pride in abortion or gluttony Mass, we'll be right on him. Thanks for your thoughts. You make some valid points. As James says, there's no way to sugar coat it. The teachings are what they are. I walked out on Our Lord when I was in rebellion against Church teaching, way back when.. Catholics are being robbed of Christ's love and the gifts that come with Sanctifying Grace. Some of us are not sitting by in silence because we see the consequences to friends, family, people we love and more importantly, to Christ. Some people will make that ugly out of anger or hurt, but those perceptions couldn't be any further than the truth. Fr. Unni doesn't 'love' anything but the man he sees in the mirror. He is a lost soul. Joyce, beautifully said. Thanks to all whose love and zeal for the House of our Lord and souls contributed to this discussion. Viva Christo Rey! The Little Way is one of the most eloquent and heartfelt writers I have read in a long time. Thank you to her for her insights. I have no wish to engage Mr. Croft further but between the wisdom of The Little Way and Carol (always wise and a zealot for the Faith) I hope the true and unadulterated message of the OT and NT sink in and redeem his soul. He is obviously an intelligent and well-spoken man. He will see the Light of Christ eventually. The Lord will wait for him and bring him to Himself. As He does most of us who have wallowed in the solitude of grave sin. Vivat Christus Rex. Jack, I very much value your zeal, your humor, your Latin and your love for Christ, His Church and souls. I love Little Way's gentility. You bring different gifts. I much more think of our journey as a collective effort where we are all learning together, keeping each other on our toes. Carol, I have not said anything about your blog post in the negative, nor what you are attempting to do. You say you have not seen ne around when you have done other things. Well, where I have been and what I have been doing ( and the content of my heart whilst doing it) will all be brought into the light one day and shown up for it's worth, or lack of. You also mentioned; .' Well, it is the action of the Holy Spirit, to convert. If you were talking to people such as some(not all) in this combox, I would say it was inspite of their words, rather than because of them, but that just might be my personality. I don't think you need to worry about anyone pussyfooting around here though, we don't seem to be that kind of cat! Jesus does allow us to have and use a personality, along with our faith. He has one Himself! It's not a 'one rule fits all' type of church, that's why people prefer different forms and liturgies I suppose. None of them should supercede the other, if done reverently. Just like people, studies show some are motivated through criticism, some through encouragement. When we encounter people with a view to loving them as Christ does, we will listen to them individually, not lump them all together with a one-off warning. "Do this or burn!" I have sounded like that in the past haha! It didn't work, needless to say. Loving others, as Christ does, even attempting it, is hard work. Learning to love myself is hard enough, then I have to give it away! 'Catholics are being robbed of Christ's love and the gifts that come with Sanctifying Grace. Some of us are not sitting by in silence because we see the consequences to friends, family, people we love and more importantly, to Christ.' Once again, I affirm your absolute duty and right to do this. Just not at the expense of another losing out to Christ's gift of eternal salvation, for them. I am also not prepared to sit in silence when this happens to homosexuals. 'Some people will make that ugly out of anger or hurt, but those perceptions couldn't be any further than the truth.' A blatant typed insult is what it is. To suggest homosexuals are 'making out' something is unfriendly due to anger or hurt, is patronizing and unfair. As Catholics, even if we have the truth all sewn up, can utter it perfectly, (in Latin if needs be) without love, it will just burn up, on Judgment day. My involvement in this combox was to highlight, as a christian, what I hear people (not just homosexuals either) accuse us of. Hatred ( used in mockery, insults, judging) for the person, not the sin. I wish you well with your campaign to bring about Christ's kingdom, the GOOD NEWS! Malcolm said: '.......Whereas your continuous proclamations of your superior compassion and preternatural moral acuity vis a vis Catholics on this site, who are calling out for truthful representation of Catholic teaching, seems rather staged.' Well, Malcolm I have done a bit of acting in the past, so maybe it clings a little, who knows? It might be one of those 'once a thespian things' darling! Seriously though, I consider myself a person who IS calling out for truthful representation of catholic teaching. I am DEADLY serious about that! You also said, 'I will leave to God to judge my characterization of "diseased souls". Pity you don't leave the judgment of those you perceive diseased, to that same God? It sounds as if God judges you, no-one else, but you judge others. Maybe I am mistaken though? Oh no, it appears I'm not. You finish, by telling me..... "I'm not quite convinced that you will be passing me through the pearly gates. Cordially." Malcolm, we can pass through the pearly gates twice, once on the way in and then again on the way out! So who knows, i might pass you after all. As for ending with the word cordially, if that's you being cordial, I'm glad I haven't encountered your 'unfriendly' Whew! Malcolm, your last sentence was really, truly appalling. PS. What the hell is 'preternatural moral acuity?' It dsounds dead posh, imagine me having that. I might put it in my blog sidebar under...'things I've been called by fellow Romans'. Praise the Lord and pray the rosary, for ironing out of rough edges. Actually Carol, I'm getting to feel quite at home here in your blog combox. I think people are beginning to warm to me a little (or maybe they want to set me on fire hahahaha!). I might stop by on a regular basis! What are we discussing next? I'll read up on it first. God bless. Praise the Lord! Shadowlands, I'm glad you feel welcome! Judging from your responses, you'll have to get used to snark here though. For instance, my reference to you're not being around for the ten years of other subjects wasn't a condemnation of you. (In fact, it might be virtue, LOL.) It was snark. As in the case with this subject, sometimes we get people who need affirmation that there's a bigger picture. And, sometimes, I'm talking something up that doesn't even pertain to you at all. Do this or you'll burn pretty much captures the essence of the Deposit of Faith! We need both the gentility and people who will speak the truths of our faith with zeal and conviction. Most times, the people who are gentle and loving do not have the personalities to ever bring you to the table of the Deposit of Faith. The beauty of knowing that the Mystical Body works in unison is that we don't have any attachments to being that person's savoir. That role, as you rightfully point out belongs to God. This is what makes Fr. Unni's problems with the First Commandment stand out like a sore thumb. Carol, As I say, I have no opinion, indeed it's none of my business what your blog post is about or what you and the other members do in your own church. My reason for dropping in, was that I felt the faith was being unfairly represented by some and the harmful effect that might have on a person, who from reading parts of his blog, has already encountered more than a lifetimes worth of less than gentle personalities. "Most times, the people who are gentle and loving do not have the personalities to ever bring you to the table of the Deposit of Faith." I haven't managed to meet enough gentle and loving christians to know if that is true, but Jesus Christ met with me at the lowest point of my life. I didn't hear shouting, I felt two strong arms lifting me up. Also, when my son was near death, He sent Our Lady. I had asked him, a few weeks earlier to let me get closer to her, if it was his will. He put that request in my heart, I am sure. He knew what was coming.I saw her, inwardly.That's all I know. That's all I can suggest to others to try. His light shining into your heart, it always affirms the person first. Who would dare look into their own heart without knowing of God's available unending mercy? If a non-christian insists that he thinks believers hate him, we must ask ourselves 'why' first, then look to the person asking, rather than deny his view as lies.That's how I see it anyway. If I have to learn to get used to snarkiness, I may not visit too often. I have a defect of character myself, that I am working on, regards sarcasm, I wouldn't want to indulge it. It wouldn't bear fruit for any of us, ultimately. God knows where he wants me to shout my fourpenneth worth! No, if you all wanted me to stay, your tone would have to be rooted in gentleness and love. Well? No, don't answer that on second thoughts. I do wish you all well, in your journey, also those you encounter, unbelievers and turned away hearts, as you share what the Lord means and has done, for you. Also, if any of you are inclined, please pray for my other son, who is being operated on, on Monday. (His heart pacemaker is being removed and re=placed....again!). Thank you Carol and Jack for your very kind comments. I like to think that we all complement one another with our various gifts in hope of defending the faith and igniting a spark in even the most hardened hearts. The Lord gave me a most profound gift of conversion and like the scene at the end of "Saving Private Ryan", I have to earn it, every day. God Bless you! Joyce Joyce, you're right on with complimenting each other. Depending upon our personality and how entrenched we have become, we need different messages in different ways. Shadowlands, I'm sorry to hear of your losses and you can count on prayers for your son. You are preaching to the choir on loving. The urban legend that we 'hate' is coming from the poppycock of people like Fr. Unni. We get through here on snarky humor, so I'm afraid that won't be changing but we too wish you the best. Carol, I didn't mean to mislead you re my second son. He didn't die! He lived. He had a very traumatic brain injury in 2007. He was given the last rites. The priest also prayed for healing. After ten hours of surgery (two ops) he pulled through! against all medical odds. I credit Our Lady's presence there, for his healing.He has had a long recovery including residual epilepsy but passed his degree and is in full time work. Prayer works! Thanks for the good wishes and prayers for my eldest btw! Awesome news. Our Lady rocks. Shadowlands: Most here are Irish. Snarkiness is in our DNA; hence, we don't understand what others mean by "snark". One thing is clear: we will not be bullied by those who would destroy our faith. One of the fundamentals of being a Roman Catholic is the recognition that we are all "diseased souls" in need of God's Grace. I will bet Fr Unni says nothing about Confession. Shadowlands, "Malcolm I have done a bit of acting in the past, so maybe it clings a little, who knows? It might be one of those 'once a thespian things' darling!" Besides by me gran and raspy voiced waitresses, I haven't been called darling in ages. "Pity you don't leave the judgment of those you perceive diseased, to that same God? It sounds as if God judges you, no-one else, but you judge others. Maybe I am mistaken though?" You hold me in much too high esteem, if my "judging", gets you down so much. I am not competent to give a thumbs up or a thumbs down to anyone's eternal soul. However, I will not shirk from describing persons who are consumed with hatred towards the RCC, as "diseased souls". As I initially said, I believe that to be consumed by hatred and vileness towards the RCC is a spiritual sickness. You should note that I did not attribute this vileness as an innate characteristic of their homosexuality. It's an aspect of their crippled humanity (oh, my goodness forgive me, their "disabled" humanity.) A hetero anti-Catholic is similarly a diseased soul. A raging racist is a diseased soul. A vicious misogynist is a diseased soul. The denier of the homosexual's unique personhood is a diseased soul. I'm quite liberal in use of the term. "You finish, by telling me....."I'm not quite convinced that you will be passing me through the pearly gates. Cordially." My unfortunate sentence structure may have caused a misunderstanding in this instance. It isn't reflective of my competence to "judge", in the sense of the fate of your eternal soul. It was denying that you will hold a Saint Peter role in passing me through the pearly gates. So, I'm not trying to keep you out of heaven. I don't expect to see you controlling the gate. Snarky? Probably. Appalling? "Woe to him who seeks to please rather than apall"...Melville "Preternatural moral acuity": moral insight that is below the abilities of God, but on a footing with the angels. It's a damn good phrase. Words are there to be used. I'm not ashamed of using them. "As for ending with the word cordially, if that's you being cordial, I'm glad I haven't encountered your 'unfriendly'" I can't remember who, someone used to send liturgical post cards to atheist Ayn Rand, in order to send her into a tizzy. It's in that vein, that I use the word "cordially". I am trying to get under your skin, but not in a nasty way. There's a difference. Father Unni: "snarky blogs...cause serious harm...Take a look at any opinionated religious blog.... and you’ll see all manner of terrible name-calling". Shadowlands:"If I have to learn to get used to snarkiness, I may not visit too often." Her Master's Voice. Hesketh God bless you. Unni brought this all upon himself. He seems now to be posturing as a bit of a dolt pretending he knew not what was going on. This was a real win for laity in keeping the local Church in line with Church teachings from those seeking self applause and no healing. Shadowlands: I'll take the blessing. But I think you misinterpreted me. "Her Master's Voice" refers to that classic RCA Victor ad- the dog listening in awe to his master's voice coming from a Victrola. See: I sense organized outrage in your postings. Hesketh, No, I didn't misinterpret you, I've seen your comments on others blogs in the past. I am quite familiar with your style and tone. I was following 1 Peter 3:9.'s advice: "Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing." 'I sense organized outrage in your postings.' Nothing organised about my outrage, it's totally disorganised! I'm not on other blogs. Perceiving evil in a critical posting, that's a little over the top. I'll pray you don't go down the road of Young Goodman Brown. Hesketh Insult. I perceived insult. Had I not quoted the whole verse, I might have been accused of editing the text. I was accused of this earlier in the thread by someone else re the catechism, quite an accusatory place infact, for some.. "I'll pray you don't go down the road of Young Goodman Brown." I don't imagine you will pray for me Hesketh, somehow. However, perhaps when you've finished analysing my soul's possible final end, you might offer a prayer for my son though? If you are a believer, that is? You've told me so much about me, yet said so little about yourself. I'm happy to have been downgraded from a focus of evil to Don Rickles. Believe it or not, I will pray for your son. I began at Mass this AM.

<< THREATEN US SOME MORE ~ MAIN ~ EFFORT MADE TO BE SMART >> Page 23, chapter four of the Stern Report: Gender inequalities will likely worsen with climate change. UPDATE. Climate change will also cause forced marriage. (Via Joe Cambria) Link to article World Ends - Women, Minorities Hardest Hit. Etc etc Wait, I’m confused, hotter climates mean less clothing ipso facto, less burkhas and less inequality. Wait, this is bad, hotter weather means more laying on the couch asking the better half for more beer, which leads to more smiting from Gaia and more inequality. I’m so confused / hand wringing. I forsee a Department of Climate Change. There will be training, seminars, conferences, meetings. Lots of meetings. #4, there already is: Australian Greenhouse Office They’ve been given so much money from the government that they’re flat out spending it by attending seminars and conferences all around the world and they’ve still got plenty left over. While we’re on the Stern report, I’m hoping to see some serious rebuttals soon. The report relies on some numbers from the IPCC that have already been comprehensively debunked. Don’t heed stern warning When Stern was chief economist at the World Bank he got into an argument with the formidable former commonwealth statistician, Ian Castles, over the inappropriate use of statistics in the bank’s development report (on emissions, as it happens), an argument Castles seems to have won. From a quick look on the web today, Castles and others really got stuck into earlier drafts of the Stern report and their criticisms don’t appear to have been refutted or accommodated. Every time I think the globalwarmacoolichanging thing has reached the height of absurdity, I see something like this. How long until they tell us global warming will shrivel our penises? Wikipedia’s entry on Niagara Falls says that increased mist from the Falls that obscures the view from the Canadian side may be a result of global warming. I shit you negative. I think that the concensus has fucking lost it. Inequality? I would’ve though warming would mean more hot chicks. It’s true! If women no longer need to put their feet on us to keep them warm while they sleep, what good are we to them? Wish I had a link to the ‘report’ which argued - seriously - that global warming was worse for women because they were less likely than men to be able to swim. In fact, here it is. Although he hasn’t yet weighed in on the Stern thread, Ian Castles has been a regular contributor to the comments over at Climate Audit. Climate Audit being the often very technical blog of Steve McIntyre and Ross McKitrick, of Hockey Stick debunking fame (and well worth a look). It means that when we cycle back to global coldening, dem bitches is gonna hog ALL the blankets… #9 It’s okay, blogagog, as long as there are rubbish bins to be put out, spiders to be killed and VCRs to be programmed, I am indispensable to women. Why didn’t Mr Gay write this report? Then people wouldn’t worry so much. Hot Dogs up late game show is possibly caused by global warming who said there’d be no consequences - huh, HUH??? #5; Art, Tim Worstall also has some criticisms that might be worth checking out. Meanwhile, I’ll do my bit to keep the globe cooler; I’ll keep the airconditioner running flat out! You know what the real elephant in the living room is here? With all these reams of reports on global warming, nobody says whether or not it’ll be a dry heat. That’s really crucial to the argument, I think. #13: “#9 It’s okay, blogagog, as long as there are rubbish bins to be put out, spiders to be killed and VCRs to be programmed, I am indispensable to women.” Hmmm. The trash is usually outside already when I get home from work, Mrs. Paco feeds bugs to Paco Jr’s pet lizard with her bare hands, and she’s a VCR-programming whiz, as well as an excellent self-taught electrician and plumber. Must preserve illusion of indispensability! Hey, look, honey! I tied my shoes all by myself, again! Obviously, Howard Stern is only worried about the future lesbian employment situation as it relates to his own financial well being and shouldn’t be taken at face value. It is a statement from Howard Stern, isn’t it? You tie your own shoelaces? What did you have Paco Jr for, then? For me, shoelace tying is a just compensation for being a bit slow working out what was the cause of offspring in hte first place. #8 Habib said - I would’ve though warming would mean more hot chicks. #6 Dave S. said - How long until they tell us global warming will shrivel our penises? Yeah, but what good is one, without the other? #21 Like tighty-whities, global warming will make men less potent. So, no pitter-patter of little carbon footprints for you. #4 SingleMalt “I forsee a Department of Climate Change”. Too late.Bob Brown proposed that John Howard set up exactlt that department yesterday. And you thought you were being droll…. (Reminds me of John Cleese’s Ministry of Silly Walks) And who says a warmer planet is bad anyhow…? I like the basic assumption of the Stern report. It’s like saying that if you stop on a level crossing and make no effort to get off the tracks that it is inevetable that you will suffer a catastrophic train impact. #2 There has been for decades. Environment Canada has been working on Climate Change for at least 15 years now. There are whole departments and bureaucracies and careers that depend upon global warming funding. The whole thing is a complete hoax to keep bureaucrats and jet-setters well fed and travelled. That should have been #4 not #2. I see from #5 that Australia already has its own collection of parasites. #6 Omigod, global warming will lead to increased evaporation from Viagra falls and no one will be able to get it up. Earth stops due to change in angular momentum brought on by BusHitler scheme to deny Big Bird her bananas. We are doomed! We are all going to die! I can’t focus on climate change. Not with rioting and looting in the cities, the international banking and finance system in tatters, raw sewage running down the streets of our darkened cities and airplanes falling out of the sky everywhere… Just give us a chance to get over the Y2K catastophe. Very OT, but lame-o ‘youth’ (i.e. thirtysomething) comedy show The Glass House has been axed. This show is the poster-child for publicly funded, smug, unreflective, Howard- and Christian-bashing ‘humour’ on our ABC. The stars are said to be ‘distressed’ and ‘devastated’. First time anything about that show has ever made me laugh. Well, I’ll be… I guess it makes sense. We have one side of the economy making stuff and the other side geared to not making stuff (or having a meeting about not making stuff). It has a symmetry about it. #18 Paco jr.‘s pet lizard Is that the one called ‘Spot’ who lives under a trapdoor in the main staircase? #29 I can’t focus on climate change. Not with rioting and looting in the cities, the international banking and finance system in tatters, raw sewage running down the streets of our darkened cities and airplanes falling out of the sky everywhere… I thought we’d already had all that Y2K stuff and it was time to move onto something new. Well, new-ish, anyway. as long as there are rubbish bins to be put out, spiders to be killed and VCRs to be programmed, I am indispensable to women. Hey, wait a minute! How come I’m doing all that stuff for myself? What gives? *Looks at Mr. H* Trouble is, I tend to kill the spider by hitting it with the VCR, after which I have to throw it in the rubbish bin. Paco, you should wear blundstone boots, no shoelaces just pull them on and go;) Catfish tend to be tropical- imagine when they start pouring down the east coast of Australia, and all the meat women have to start covering up at the beach- then you’ll be sorry. #6 Dave S… “Wikipedia’s entry on Niagara Falls says that increased mist from the Falls that obscures the view from the Canadian side may be a result of global warming. I shit you negative.” I suggest a smallish water diversion project. That ought to leave one helluva rock climbing “experience” once the Falls are gone. At least it’s somethin’ to do if blogagog’s worst fears come true. What, in this feminised world of positive discrimination, men will be even worse off? Surely not… #37 We have walking catfish here. Catfish are good eating if you don’t mind the bones. I suggest a smallish water diversion project. Wronwright! You’re up! #35 - Thanks, cuckoo, I just peed myself. But what id the walking catfish eat uncovered meat? Is this haram? I’m getting confused. BTW, there was a dingbat in the letters section of the Oz extolling the example of the planetary action over Y2K to push the same reaction to global warmy/coldy/dry-y/wetty whatever the fucks going on:- AS we approached the new millennium, Y2K became the most important thing facing the world and billions were spent to ensure that our computer-dependent world was prepared. The Y2K bug hardly rates when one looks at the monetary and human cost global warming will have on everyone on the planet, and yet we have John Howard and George W. Bush unprepared to acknowledge the enormity of the problem. Even the latest dire warning on global warming by former World Bank economist Nicholas Stern has barely made a dent in the PM’s reluctance to acknowledge that global warming is a reality. G. Unwin Gold Coast, Qld So by this reasonning, because idiot governments and cretinous business management got suckered with a world-wide con in 1999, we should repeat the performance and get our wallets hoovered by some spivs by panicking over another flim flam. Evolution is a myth- humanity getes stupider by the nanosecond. While we’re on the Stern report, I’m hoping to see some serious rebuttals soon. This is a question I ask all the time. Does your data take into consideration water vapor? Water vapor, responsible for 95% of Earth’s greenhouse effect, is 99.999% natural (some argue, 100%). Even if we wanted to, we can do nothing to change this. Adding up all anthropogenic greenhouse sources, the total human contribution to the greenhouse effect is around 0.28% [Kyoto], even if imposed equally on all countries around the world, would reduce total human greenhouse contributions from CO2 by about 0.035%. This is much less than the natural variability of Earth’s climate system! #17 Donnah… I’m beside myself, I’m verklempt! Dey remind me of my cousins in Netanya! Vaat are dey doin’ over deya? Dey vant air conditionin’? Just because dey ask dey ain’t gonna get! Oh no what if all the catsmeat spoils in the heat? No goat will be safe! oh goody! I do Tim tam :) I’m just wondering whether we’ll hear the usual suspects warning about the dangers of surrendering our freedoms in the face of fear. You know the kind of thing: If we start profiling at airports then the terrorists have won, etc, etc I’m just guessing our hard won rights to drive cool cars and eat whatever the Hell we like may be under threat. I don’t see too much beard stroking over what promises to be the mother of all erosions of liberty? A quote from the Stern Report: Gender inequalities will likely worsen with climate change. ... A particular burden will be imposed [on them] ... leaving women vulnerable to impoverishment, forced marriage, labour exploitation and trafficking. So climate change is the new Islam? Time for a new look at the whole phenomenon- could global warming be being caused by all those hot and horny Moslem males radiating randy energy? I’m for terrestrial sequestration to mitigate the effects. #26 The whole thing is a complete hoax to keep bureaucrats and jet-setters well fed and travelled. In my view it is part of communism’s ongoing culture war agaimst the West. Part of the how can we make them hate themselves and slow down their damn economies campaign, alongside the left’s attacks on Western culture, history, patriotism, etc. #44 trainer… I read your link. Contrast that to the screed written at the “forced marriage” link provided above by Tim. I have a problem here. The commenters at “The road to Smur.. er… Surfdom” think everyone at “Tim Blair” are “smartarse idiot morally vacuous warbloggers”; so just what do you think you’re doing bringing incontrovertible science into this??? Shame! How in tarnation will Tim’s commenters ever live up to our hard-earned reputations? By the way, is that Surfdom(sic) as in “surfdom-and-turfdom”? Like when I take my wife out for a steak-and-lobster dinner. Heck, I’ve been working like a serf lately… better hit the rack. P.S. Any chance this Stern geezer is correct? Because if he is, I won’t have to shovel 6 feet of snow this winter in 35-below-zero temperature. Again… like I’ve been doing most winters for decades. you might want to close those tags Joe, italics don’t grow on trees. UPDATE. Climate change will also cause forced marriage. I don’t believe the Stern Report addresses the question everyone wants answered: will we see cats and dogs living together? #43 - Unwin the Useless! Curse you, Tim, for sending me to a lefty blog. It’s like entering an inverted bizarro version of the real world. No jokes, no facts, just whiny bile. Are they all like that? #53 ArtVandelay… Damned italics! Let’s see. Insert “” in front of “(sic)”, insert “” behind… forget it. Almost midnight here… mom told me to get to bed 2 hours ago. And I still have to let the dog out… and scrape the poop off the patio (wouldn’t want to pollute the environment). Damn dog shits a pile so high that 2 good men couldn’t shake hands over top of it. Humour inequalities between right and left will likely worsen with climate change. Molo the magnificent, clairvoiant to royalty will now astound you with his predictions!! The answer to gerbil worming is ...(drumroll)... more regulation and higher taxes, both direct, and indirect. Thank you donations in the hat please. O/T - Another triumph for The Lancet. Unbelievable. London - In the first comprehensive global study of sexual behavior, British researchers found that people aren’t losing their virginity at ever younger ages, married people have the most sex, and there is no firm link between promiscuity and sexually transmitted diseases. Note the small print which kyboshes the wholke survey as a beat-up: Wellings noted that since the survey results were based on self-reporting, they could be susceptible to error. ‘Could be’ susceptible to error. Stone me. Fox News (and doubtless others). You have to hand it to the people who came up with global warming/climate change/end of the world from carbon spewing capitalism. Can anyone think of one of the left’s bug bears it doesn’t deal with. It’s like the Ikea of politics causing everything from envioronmental damage to higher taxes to gender inequality while at the same time making it hotter, colder, wetter, drier, stormier, calmer, snowier and clearer. It’s a marketer’s wet dream. #52 Joe B - I suspect its supposed to be a clever take on the terrific book “The Road to Serfdom” by F A Hayek. 9. blogagog You’re a very clever dog, posting on the internet. Good boy! Indeed. Now, I’d like to be left alone while attempting to lick my groin… Why would you lick your groin if you could lick your balls? #18 Dammit, Paco, what about the Tardis, Rovian killbots (don’t mention the MkIII modification which makes ‘em into the buggerbot, OK?), global warmenating instant reversal satellite array (heard from kilo recently?), death laser satellites, moonbase, marsbase, starships and the recent 400 metre upward extension to Andreas trophy wall! Does none of this count with Mrs paco? MarkL Minionmeister to the VRWC <erm, she did not find out about Caligula’s bucks party, did she??> Another quote from the report, quoted on “Road to Surfdom” Women are also particularly vulnerable to the effects of natural disasters with women and children accounting for more than 75% of displaced persons following natural disasters. Hmmm. Consider a 3 generation family: nanna and pop, their two adult kids, with spouses, and the two offspring each of the adult pairs have produced. You finish up with 7 women and children to only 3 men (or 70% of the population). Kill off pop because pops usually don’t live as long as nannas do. That brings the women and children population to 78%. Add more kids per generation and the percentage of women and children just keeps going up and up whether or not there’s a natural disaster. And remember that natural disasters include such things as earthquakes and volcanic explosions which, last I heard, have nothing to do with global warmening. This bloke’s alarmism is contemptible. And, frankly, if I’m caught up in a natural disaster and I survive more or less uninjured then I won’t be sitting around waiting for some bloke to do the necessary for me. Unless male level brawn is both necessary and useful being female does not render me less than capable of looking after myself. So, wait, lefties are FOR forced marriage, near-slave like conditions for women, and all that when caused by Islam, but AGAINST the very same things when “caused” by climate change? Color me confused. So, wait, lefties are FOR forced marriage, near-slave like conditions for women, and all that when caused by Islam, but AGAINST the very same things when “caused” by climate change? Color me confused. Color me confused. Climate change = caused Western culture. Islam = not Western culture. Clearer now? Offtopic, but Webdiary is back up. This post is called “The Horror”, so it seemed like the most appropriate place to mention it. ;-) I liked the great pic/title Harry Heidelberg used for his post when it went down… So gerbil worming will cause women to be attracted to the man with the most food, shelter, power, and pretty baubles? And that would be different to now how?... /hides behind Andreas wall, they cant get me here. #32 cuckoo: “Omar”, the Australian bearded dragon, currently resides in a spiffy terrarium, but when he gets bigger, a trap door under the stairs would be ideal (should make our house salesman-proof). #66 MarkL: Nah, she just considers that useless guy stuff. #49 No, climate change IS islam Thanks Tim for that last link update The posts there are rather amazingly twisted and one caught my eye: This is part of Mr z’s comment I was going to post a comment in response to this at Blair’s, but after reading the number of commenters on the linked post there who stated their wish for the mass-executions of ‘leftists’ as a response to climate change, while simultaneously calling the eco-aware “fascists”, I decided not to waste my time Really? I can’t remember seeing you all post about mass executions! Or do the regulars here have some kind of code? That I haven’t worked out yet? Wish I had a link to the ‘report’ which argued - seriously - that global warming was worse for women because they were less likely than men to be able to swim. Poppycock. Not only do we know how to swim, our increased body fat makes us eminently more floatable. Here’s an example of how well-researched and solidly presented this report is.. [113] [113] is a reference to this lovely paper: ‘Caught in the storm: impact of natural disasters on women’. San Fransisco, CA: Global Fund for Women. And that paper takes its reference from this poorly-cited article: Most tsunami dead female - Oxfam So that “women and children account for more than 75% of displaced persons following natural disasters” is inferred from an Oxfam report on a couple of villages in Aceh following the tsunami. I kinda think that if that witless child Tim Blair and his minions vanished from the blogosphere the average IQ across the board would rise considerably. Ooo, I would so love to have a dueling IQs contest with blogosphere left. Bring it on. signed, A witless child Tim Blair minion Dear Climate Mufti: I will shortly be attending a conference on Climate Change Activism in a far part of the world. Since the Jew manipulators have done away with all the sailing ships, I will be forced to travel there by airplane. I know that our spiritual leader Monbiot (pbuh) has declared airplanes unclean; can you tell me, O Tim, if there is any ritual by which the plane may be made clean and suitable for use of the faithful? What is it with lefties and math? Are they all innumerate? How long until they tell us global warming will shrivel our penises? Don’t you think that’s already the problem for many of the climate alarmists, Dave? #9 It’s okay, blogagog, as long as there are rubbish bins to be put out, spiders to be killed and VCRs to be programmed, I am indispensable to women. I put out my own trash, kill my own spiders, know how to program a VCR and don’t have cold feet. Now, why do I need you men? Oh yeah, now I remember… It is a statement from Howard Stern, isn’t it? Yes. And who says a warmer planet is bad anyhow…? Indeed. As with any change, there will be winners and losers. Seems like North America will be one of the winners (our neighbor to the north already is counting the extra revenue derived from its increased agricultural capacity and extended growing season). How’s that for a kick in the teeth, ecofascists? The biggest polluter and most egregious waster of global resources is likely to benefit and profit from a slightly warmer planet (and remember, we know how to turn a buck from almost anything). But with that Anartic ice sheet supposedly expanding and all, I am a little worried about you guys Down Under. #81 Kyda Sylvester Can’t speak for my fellow Aussies but we’ll be right here in my neck of the woods The Georges River down the road should just rise enough to make us into waterfront zillionaires - which should keep our assorted offspring happy when the will is read out #79 can you tell me, O Tim, if there is any ritual by which the plane may be made clean and suitable for use of the faithful? Guzzling lots of vodka before boarding. “STERNN!”—Hanover Fiste Another quote from the report, quoted on “Road to Surfdom” Women are also particularly vulnerable to the effects of natural disasters with women and children accounting for more than 75% of displaced persons following natural disasters. Posted by Janice Posted by Janice That’s not unlike the shocking statistic that 40% of employee absence occurs on Mondays and Fridays. #52 Joe B As a marine zoologist I studied all of these global environmental trends 4 decades ago. They were predicted and predictable, and there were solid scientific reasons for them. I’ve seen nothing to change my mind. That was until the illiberal godawful greenies made a religion out of them. Is it getting warmer. Yes. It’s supposed to. In about 200 years it’ll start getting cooler. It’s supposed to. It’s a 500 year cycle overlaid on a 1500 year cycle overlaid on a 10,000 year cycle overlaid on a 100,000 year cycle overlaid on a million year cycle. And don’t forget to throw in the 11 year solar cycle. It’s even got a name…Milankovitch Theory from 1842 for Gods sake. From a more empirical standpoint, think about the Currier and Ives etchings - Deep snow in London all winter in the mid 1800s. That corresponds to the low point in the temperature swings. Think about Chaucer’s writings - it was much warmer in England at his time - much much warmer than now. The swings are regular and predictable. Globular Warmening is a joke and no serious scientist (i.e., one not dependent on moonbats for money) will sign on to it. #73 Paco, you are just SO screwed. Nothing we can do to help you. Remember the first trial trip in the Tardis, back to the Neolithic? We watched poor old Urg the Hairy spend 2 days stalking and killing that humungous Mastodon, clean it, drag it back to the cave while fighting off Cave Bears and Giant Hyenas, and what did his missus say to the poor panting shagged-out bastard? “Urg, just where the #$£%& do you expect me to put all of THAT?” MarkL Minionmeister to the VRWC Paco’s patented Women’s Water Wings You know it makes sense… Page 1 of 1 pages Login | Register | Member List

. Choosing Sides Part 1: Using Luminosity Masks to Fix Halos Lumin_6<<_7<< Now invert the white Reveal All mask on the adjustment layer to make it black instead of white (Windows: Ctrl+I / Mac: Command+I). It is now a Conceal All mask as shown in the layer stack below. The normal haloed image returns. _9<<_10<<. In a previous post I described how luminosity painting is one of my favorite techniques for balancing the light in an image. The technique can be effectively used to burn or dodge specific parts of an image while maintaining tonal contrast in the areas being painted. In this post I’ll expand on the technique a little more and show some variations in the procedure that can be useful. Unlike black and white images where a full tonal range from delicate whites to detailed shadows is often desirable, color images usually look better with the highlights retaining some good color instead of going to light or pure white. In fact, I’ve developed a preference for a left-shifted histogram for color images–no whites at all and mostly composed of mid-tones and quarter tones as seen in the histogram below. Even though there may not be many of them in an image, getting the brightest values correct is still important. This is difficult to do sometimes because simply darkening white values yields gray, which really has no color either, and doesn’t contribute to the richness that may be desired. A good place to start to achieve the proper light tones is with RAW conversion, making sure there are no clipped highlights and that the light tones are already left-shifted and retaining color. This allows them to be further developed to the proper brightness and contrast in Photoshop. The image below is one that I consider nearly finished. Color, brightness, contrast, and saturation had been addressed during processing, and on-screen it seemed nearly as good as I could make it. I usually let the print help make the final call as to when an image is actually finished, and the light values in this image looked a little weak in the print. They had too much tonal whiteness and not enough color richness. The rollover of the image (it may take a few seconds to load) shows the final version after the light tone had been further addressed. These tones have been darkened in the rollover and have richer color, but the contrast in these light values has been retained to bring out the texture. There are, of course, many ways luminosity masks could be used to make this adjustment. What I’ll illustrate here is a way to do it with a combination of techniques, each of which may also be useful in other situations. INVERTED MASKS The first thing that will be done is to luminosity paint through an inverted luminosity mask. I’ve previously written that these inverted masks aren’t too useful. They tend to include a lot of tones and don’t isolate specific tones as a result. However, there is a dictum with luminosity masks that point to a way in which inverted masks might be useful: To increase contrast in an image when luminosity painting, paint white through a Lights-series mask or paint black through a Darks-series mask. Because of the way luminosity masks are generated, each series concentrates the selection progressively towards one end of the tonal spectrum. The Lights-series masks, for example, have fewer and fewer tones as the masks progress from Lights to Light Lights to Bright Lights and finally to Super Lights. The tones that do remain in the progression are the whitest and lightest with pure white being selected in every mask. Luminosity painting through a Lights-series mask, therefore, deposits more paint on the less-masked light tones than on the relatively more-masked darker tones. So painting with white means that the light tones get more paint and get lighter faster than the darker tones, which receive less paint. The end result being increased contrast in the area being painted. The opposite happens when painting with black through a Lights-series mask—the less-masked light tones receive more black paint and darken faster than the more-masked darker tones, which in turn decreases contrast in the area being painted. Any inverted mask switches to the opposite series. An inverted Light Lights mask, for example, is effectively a Darks-series mask. Even though the inverted mask doesn’t have a name, it’s character is decidedly that of a Darks-series mask, namely that the parts of the image that show in the mask are a gray-scale negative of the original image with the darkest tones being 100% pure white in the mask. This is demonstrated in the Light Lights mask for the above image which is shown below. The rollover shows the Darks-series inverse. So according to the dictum, painting black through the inverted Lights Lights selection, which becomes a Darks-series selection, should darken and increase contrast in the areas that receive paint. That’s what was done in this case. The process is as follows: - Create the Burn/Dodge layer (new layer > fill with 50% gray > set blending mode to “Soft Light”) - Create a Light Lights selection (and save a copy as a mask on the Channels panel). - Invert the selection. - Hide the marching ants. - Make sure the foreground color is set to black. - Paint black onto the Burn/Dodge layer through the inverted Light Lights selection (a 33% opacity soft brush was used) - Deselect the hidden selection when done. After luminosity painting through the inverted Light Lights mask, the Burn/Dodge layer looked like the image below. The areas darker than 50% gray cause darkening in the image. The resultant image is shown below. The too-light areas have been made darker and painting through a luminosity mask has blended the darkening into the rest of the image, but it’s overdone. There is now a blackness in some of the areas that were painted as well as some dark haloing along the center ridge. This is because the broad, inverted selection allowed the paint to be applied in a very imprecise manner. Too much black paint reached the darker pixels in the image because they are substantially revealed by the inverted selection. While this is expected, the image has taken on a color “gloppiness” as a result. For reference, the rollover is the original image. It may be hard to notice, but within this heavy-handed paint job the desired darkening of the light tones has been achieved along with a slight boost in their overall contrast. Black paint applied through a Darks-series mask (the inverted Light Lights in this case) insures this. Now it’s just a matter of fine-tuning the painting to separate the properly-painted pixels from the poorly-painted ones. MASKING LUMINOSITY PAINTING A luminosity layer mask on the luminosity-painted Burn/Dodge layer is the way to reveal the good parts of this bad paint job. Interestingly, the Light Lights mask, the one that was inverted for luminosity painting, can now serve as the correct mask to reveal the desired darkening in the pixels that were originally too light. While simply adding the Light Lights mask as a layer mask does a pretty good job, I prefer to actually paint the mask through the Light Lights selection so as to create a more precise reveal and to augment it with multiple brush strokes in specific areas. The procedure is as follows. - Create a Hide All layer mask on the Burn/Dodge layer (a “black” layer mask). - Create a Light Lights selection. (NOTE: It’s best to use the original Light Lights mask from the unpainted image instead of creating a new one from the now gloppy image. The original Light Lights mask can be stored on the Channels panel when it’s created and reselected at this point.) - Hide the marching ants. - Make sure that the mask is selected for painting and that white is the foreground color. - Paint white onto the layer mask (100% opacity, soft brush) in the areas where the darkening effect of the luminosity painting needs to be revealed. - Deselect the hidden selection when done. Imprecision in painting this time has a much less deleterious effect on the image. The Light Lights selection is much narrower than its tonal inverse. As such, it’s harder to paint outside the lines because the selection is more confining as to where paint gets applied. Some care needs to be taken in smaller confined areas or where multiple brush strokes are used, but overall a few wide strokes of the brush creates the painted mask that reveals the darkening in just those areas where it’s needed. The remaining dark areas of the painted mask effectively conceal the gloppiness of the original paint job. Below is the painted mask that was created. The whitest areas are where multiple brush strokes were applied to create greater reveal of the luminosity painting. The image that results after painting the layer mask for the Burn/Dodge layer is shown below. The rollover is the unmasked layer with the gloppy luminosity painting that was visible without the layer mask. The painted mask effectively selected the right pixels to reveal in order to achieve the desired darkening effect in the light tones of the image. This is a good example of how luminosity mask selections, when employed in painting, can correctly select tones and seamlessly blend the desired effect into the rest of the image. What’s most remarkable in this case is that even after the grossly overdone luminosity painting through the inverted mask, painting a layer mask through the Light Lights selection was still able to reveal just the right amount of tonal adjustment for each pixel that received paint and almost effortlessly facilitated the desired adjustment to the image. The blue highlighted layer below shows how this Burn/Dodge luminosity painting layer with its painted layer mask looked in Photoshop’s Layers panel when the procedure was complete. BLURRING THE MASK While I don’t often feel it necessary to blur luminosity masks, this is one time that it helped. Light tones tend to blend together visually. Blurring the mask provides a bit of increased sharpness, which causes what texture there is in the light tones to become a bit more visually separated. When I apply blur to luminosity masks, it’s usually a 21-pixel Gaussian blur. That amount was chosen to “correlate” with my 21-megapixel camera, but I’m not really sure if there is any correlation at all. For whatever reason, the 21-pixel Gaussian blur seems to provide a good result when used to blur a luminosity mask. The blurred mask is shown below. Below is the final image after the blur was applied to the layer mask. The rollover is the image with the unblurred layer mask. The difference may be hard to see in this size image, but it has a nice effect on a larger jpeg and the actual print. In summary, three steps were used to make this adjustment: - Paint through an inverted luminosity mask to maintain/enhance contrast. - Create a painted layer mask by painting through a luminosity mask selection to reveal the luminosity painting to the appropriate degree in the appropriate pixels. - Blur the layer mask if it helps to improve textures/contrast. If you’d like to practice this technique on this image, a larger version with a prominent copyright symbol is available for download here. Listening to the Light – Examples in Image Development – Part 2 The last post discussed concepts about listening to the light in an image—working to understand what’s not quite right and then finding a way to correct it. It’s an interactive and iterative process with each step building on what has been done previously. The process may require going back to adjust previous adjustment layers, printing the image and looking at it in different light to see things that the on-screen image might not reveal, and a willingness to experiment to find the best way to make a particular adjustment. An important part of this process, I think, is finding and nurturing a relationship with the image and its light. While the Layers panel may have 10 to 20 different layers to complete the development process, only a few of them usually make significant changes in how the image looks. These “layers of significance” make the more dramatic changes to the image and set the overall tone and direction that development takes. These are the “finding the relationship” layers—the big steps. They’re the ones that spark interest in pushing ahead, rev up the imagination, and make one start to feel a bit giddy about the possibilities the light may hold in this image. These layers tend to create a degree of infatuation. There is increasing desire to be with this image and it’s light to see what might happen. The other layers—the majority of layers in the layer stack—make smaller, less dramatic changes. These are the “nurturing” layers. They keep the relationship going, sometimes at a very deep level. When there’s no big changes happening during the development process, it’s these small steps that build on the themes first realized in the big steps. This is often a slower process, and it takes careful listening to figure out what the image wants. But as the whispers become reality, there is a certain closeness and intimacy that develops between the photographer and the image. The light will only speak to the photographer who took the picture at this point, and the photographer is the only one who can understand what the light is saying. This post is going to take a look at the big steps in the development of an image. These are easier to see in mouse rollovers, so they lend themselves better to instructional purposes. Unlike the last post that showed the incremental changes in finishing an image, the rollovers here should be more obvious. A good place to start is to take a look at the final image, which is shown below. This is another sandstone abstract. The natural color in the rock, the warm light reflected from a nearby cliff face, and the blue light from an open sky combined to produce an interesting mix of colors. I saw the color, lines, and texture when I was taking the picture and felt like I would enjoy developing them out in Photoshop; however, I didn’t visualize this as the final image. The final image is the result of an ongoing dialog with the light as the image developed and the relationship that ensued. I felt there were three “big steps” that moved this image along, and I’ll go over each of them and how they were accomplished. First, however, rollover this image with the mouse. It shows how the image would look with the visibility of the three “big-step” layers turned off. (NOTE: It may take a few seconds for the second image to load.) Healing/Cloning The first big step that was important for this image was healing and cloning. My original thought was to keep this minimal since immediately after converting the RAW file everything seemed to look OK and work reasonably well together. About halfway through development, however, this changed. Richer colors and more pronounced contrast were starting to come out, and as a result, some of the lighter blue patches, especially in the foreground, were starting to look out of place in both brightness and color. So I cloned them out. There are different “ethics” with regard to how much cloning one should or should not do to an image. There seems to be more leeway given in nature photography to cloning out rather than cloning in. Removing twigs, leaves, and other “spots” seems acceptable, but cloning in birds, clouds, and animals is not. Personally, my ethics are pretty liberal on this subject. What the picture and the photographer do in the privacy of the computer is their business, not everyone else’s. In other words, it’s a personal decision. I also tend to be somewhat liberal when it comes to using Photoshop’s healing and cloning tools in my images when I feel it works to remove elements that cause visual distraction. If it’s done well and enhances the image, I think it’s a credit to the photographer and their skill. Photoshop’s healing brush, which was used here, generally produces good results, though it does require working on a magnified image to insure perfect blending. The image below is again the final image. The rollover shows how the image looks with the Heal/Clone layer turned off in which the blue areas distract the eye slightly from moving smoothly through the scene from lower right to upper left. Below is the Heal/Clone layer that produced this effect. The healed ares show up well against the checkered background. Looking closely at this layer shows a bit of a dark smudge in the lower left corner. This isn’t healing/cloning; it’s luminosity painting. I had the wrong layer selected and accidentally added a thin layer of black paint to the Heal/Clone layer. However, I liked the effect it had on the image and simply left it in. The effect can easily be seen in the rollover above as a bit of darkening in this area. Make-It-Glow Make-It-Glow is a technique available in my complete set of tutorials and actions. I actually don’t use it all that often, but when it works, it can make a big difference in how an image looks. It simultaneously increases contrast and saturation in a smooth manner across the entire image. It essentially imparts a glow to the image that looks pretty natural. A low-contrast, low-saturation image that has lots of texture is a good place to try it. Images that have large areas the same color or significant color saturation tend to look garish with this technique, so it needs to be used judiciously. Since it makes a pretty dramatic change, lowering the opacity of the layer it’s on can help decrease the effect if it goes too far. Also, a vibrance mask on the layer can help restrict the effect to less-saturated areas of the image. In this image, it was applied soon after RAW conversion and before development had brought out the colors and contrast. As such, it worked well to increase the overall saturation without the need to lower the layer’s opacity or mask the effect. Again, the final image is below. The rollover is how it looks with the Make-It-Glow layer turned off. Luminosity Painting Luminosity painting once again had a significant impact on this image, but it was used in a decidedly different manner than in the last post. In the image in the previous post, most of the burning and dodging were done through a Basic Mid-tones mask to even out the brightness across the image. This resulted in decreased general contrast, which was restored in the next step. For this image I was more concerned about the lack of local contrast that I was seeing in the image and wanted to paint in more contrast while at the same time evening out the light across the image. To increase contrast with luminosity painting, there is an easy rule to remember: LIGHT through LIGHTS, DARK through DARKS. What this means is that to increase contrast when luminosity painting, paint a LIGHT color through a LIGHTS-series masks or paint a DARK color through a DARKS-series mask. For luminosity painting, LIGHT color paint = white, and DARK color paint = black. So here’s a summary of my goals and how I’ll accomplish them: - 1st Goal: Darken and increase contrast in areas that are too light. Technique: Paint black through a Darks-series selection (Expanded Darks, Darks, Dark Darks, Shadow Darks, or Super Darks). - 2nd Goal: Lighten and increase contrast in areas that are too dark. Technique: Paint white through a Lights-series selection (Expanded Lights, Lights, Light Lights, Bright Lights, or Super Lights). While it’s necessary to follow the “LIGHT through LIGHTS, DARKS through DARKS” rule in order to to increase local contrast while balancing overall light, it’s also possible to do it in a more nuanced way that offers greater control. Instead of using the “straight” Darks- and Lights-series selections to paint through, subtracting one mask from another creates a subtracted selection that selects image tones nearer the mid-tones. So, for example, paint won’t be applied to the full range of tones in a Darks selection. Instead, just the Dark tones near the mid-tones are selected. For this image the “DARKS” selection that was painted through was actually the Darks minus the Shadow Darks. This selection contains the image’s dark tones, but the darkest tones are subtracted off making the selected tones the darker mid-tones of the image. Black paint is going to be applied through this selection to the Burn/Dodge layer to darken the too-light areas of the image, which generally contain light tones. As such, it’s necessary to be a bit careful in how the paint is applied. The subtracted selection still favors dark tones, so dark tones can easily get more paint than light tones when black paint is applied through the selection. So it’s important to choose the right size brush that doesn’t spread the paint too far outside the intended areas to be darkened and to control the brush strokes so they predominantly hit in the light areas that need to be darkened. Sometimes a slightly harder brush (30-50% hardness) can be useful in not straying into the dark areas too much. You might be thinking that this approach sort of goes against the main advantage of luminosity painting, which is that errant brush strokes are of little consequence since the selection is controlling which pixels receive paint. This is a consideration, of course, but also keep in mind that painting is occurring through a luminosity selection, so it will still blend into the image. It’s just a matter of making sure that most of the paint gets stroked onto the areas that need to be changed. Additionally, the selected tones that receive paint are near image’s mid-tones; the darkest tones in the image are subtracted off and don’t receive much paint. Again, the selection being painted through here is Darks minus the Shadow Darks. The mask of this subtracted selection is shown below. The light areas are darker in this mask but aren’t completely black. This means they will still receive paint if they are stroked with a brush of sufficient opacity. Because the mask reveals dark tones more than light tones, darker pixels get darker faster when black paint is applied through the selection to the Burn/Dodge layer. So if the light tones are painted black through this selection, all the light tones get a bit darker, but the darker light tones get darker faster than the lighter light tones. This increases contrast in the light tones, and is exactly what is expected from the “DARK through DARKS” rule, and what is desired in this image. Lightening the dark tones to increase contrast works the same way except this time the selection being painted though needs to come from the Lights-series of mask. A subtracted selection is once again desirable and the Lights minus Light Lights works well for this purpose. It selects the lighter mid-tones in the image and subtracts off the image’s lightest tones. It’s a pretty narrow selection and it’s mask shows a predominance of dark gray tones as shown below. When loaded as a selection, there are no pixels more than 50% select, so no marching ants appear. Still it’s the right selection for the job and will be effective in lightening the dark tones while increasing their contrast. However, it’s again necessary when painting to be a careful to brush primarily the dark areas of the image that need adjustment and not stray too much into the light areas. With a little care, the LIGHT paint through the LIGHTS-series of masks lightens and increases the contrast of dark tones in the image. The image below shows the painted Burn/Dodge layer for this image. White paint lightens and black paint darkens the underlying image and it’s possible to combine both these things on one layer by painting through the appropriate selections as described above. The rollover shows the image before painting in order to see how white paint was applied to the dark areas of the image and black paint to the light areas in order facilitate the appropriate burning and dodging. The more even light across the image and the good maintenance of local contrast that resulted from luminosity painting can seen below. Again, this is the final image and the rollover is the image with the Burn/Dodge layer turned off. A quick summary of this procedure might be useful, so here are the steps - Create the Burn/Dodge layer. - Create a Darks minus Shadow Darks selection and hide the ants. - Apply black paint to the Burn/Dodge Layer through this selection to areas of the image that are too light, being careful to adjust brush size and hardness to only paint in the light areas as much as possible. - Create a Lights minus Light Lights selection, clicking OK when the warning box comes up that no pixels are more than 50% selected. - Apply white paint to the Burn/Dodge Layer through this selection to areas of the image that are too dark, being careful to adjust brush size and hardness to paint mainly in the dark areas where increased brightness is desired. I like this technique enough that I recommended it to Alban Fenle when I saw one of his images. I requested to use the image in this post as it worked well to demonstrate this luminosity painting technique and he agreed. His image is more “realistic” than my sandstone picture and is shown below. The only adjustment I added to this image was luminosity painting on a Burn/Dodge layer as described above. The too-light areas of the image were painted with black paint through a Darks minus Shadow Darks selection, and the too-dark areas were painted white through a Lights minus Light Lights selection. The paint was somewhat carefully applied with a 30% hard brush to makes sure the right pixels received paint. This evened out the light across the image and maintained good contrast in the areas being painted. The end result, I think, is richer colors with stronger detail in both the highlight and shadow areas. The rollover shows the image after luminosity painting using this technique. The Burn/Dodge layer that resulted from painting is shown below. The rollover is the original image so that it’s easier to see which light and dark areas received paint. Alban’s version after applying this technique is posted on his Google+ page. It’s different from what I did, and that’s one of the nice things about luminosity painting—it’s a very personal way to interact with the image; no two photographers can do it the same. There are many interpretations of an image, and the photographer and the image will together decide what works best. Listening to the Light – Examples in Image Development One of the hardest things about developing an image in Photoshop is figuring out what changes to apply to improve it. This is an acquired skill, I think, that, like composing an image with the camera, improves with practice. Sometimes I know exactly what I need to do in Photoshop, but I also spend a lot of time going back and forth on different possibilities, experimenting with alternate techniques, and generally exploring options before settling on a particular adjustment. Even then, I may go back and readjust an adjustment layer depending on what happens with subsequent layers. Image development is a dynamic process, not a one-way street. I receive questions asking which technique to use in developing an image and when to use it, and the answer is always the same: It depends on what the image needs. Responding to the image often means that a standard “workflow” probably isn’t going to work. It’s really the image dictating what needs to be done, not the photographer or some repeatable steps. It’s necessary to respond to the light in the image in the same way you respond to the light in the field. Don’t try to control it. Instead, work with it, listen to it, and let it determine the direction of development. There’s a corollary to this concept of listening to the light that is very important. Once you do figure out what the image needs, you have to have the right tool or technique to address the issue. As such, I thought it might be instructive to occasionally write a post on how I think about what an image needs at different points in its development and discuss my approach to solving the “problems” that I perceive. In other words, what I heard when I listened to the light, and how I responded to what it was saying. The goal being not to go over every layer in the development of a particular image, but rather to look at a few of them and attempt to discuss the collaboration that was occurring between the image and me at that time. I’ll say up front that it’s not always easy to describe exactly what I was thinking. Sometimes it’s just intuition and sometimes just a fortunate experiment that helps to move image development forward. However, I also think that instances like this maybe reflect our deeper understanding of the light and that we just don’t always have the vocabulary to communicate these feelings. The image below is one that is partially developed. It shows a sandstone detail that I recently photographed in twilight shortly after sunset. I know abstract images can be confusing, so just to get past the perceptional difficulties here, the camera is pointing downward to capture the layers of texture and color as they recede from the camera. Four Photoshop layers were added after this point in development. I’ll go over them one by one explaining what was going on and my reasons for adding the layers. The first layer added was a luminosity painting layer, which involves dodging and burning through luminosity mask selections to lighten or darken specific parts and specific tones in the image. It’s described in detail in this tutorial. My goal in luminosity painting is generally to create an evenness of light so that the colors and textures assume a large role when viewing the image. This often involves lessening some of the natural shadows and highlights in the scene that might draw the eye unnaturally in the print. Dodging (lightening) with luminosity painting can sometimes remove excess saturation in dark areas and can add texture in light areas. Burning (darkening) can improve color richness to areas that look washed out and can remove distracting highlights that draw the viewer’s eye. I usually start the process by painting through a Basic Mid-tones selection since it can be used to both lighten and darken the image, but I also use other selections or combinations of selections from masks of both the Darks-series and Lights-series depending on what I want to accomplish. Once the even light starts to come out in the image, the uneven places seem to stand out a bit more. In this way, luminosity painting sort of becomes self-directing. It’s just a matter of looking at the image and seeing and addressing the unbalanced light and then painting through an appropriate luminosity selection to correct it. I usually have all the Darks- and Lights-series of mask sitting on my Channels panel, as well as a Basic Mid-tones mask, so I can quickly grab what works best. Below is the luminosity painted Burn/Dodge layer for this image. The mouse rollover shows how the image looked before luminosity painting to provide a better idea of where paint was applied to even out the light. (Note: For all the the rollover images, it might take a short time to load the second image, but continue to hover the mouse over the image until it appears. Once it does, you should be able to move the mouse quickly back and forth over the edge of the image to see the change.) Blacker areas on the luminosity painting layer darken the image, whiter areas lighten it, and 50% gray areas are unchanged. The luminosity selection being painted through determines which pixels receive paint and how much. The luminosity painting layer is generally one of the most dynamic in the layer stack. I continually return to it as subsequent layers shift the light, and apply additional paint, black or white, to bring back the evenness. Below is how the image looked after luminosity painting. The rollover shows the image before the luminosity painting layer was added so you can readily see the difference between before and after. Once I had the light somewhat balanced with luminosity painting, the next thing I noticed was the lack of saturation in the colors and an overall flatness to the image. While luminosity painting can be used effectively to increase local contrast, using the technique to even out the tones across the entire image can result in a loss of general contrast. The benefit of balancing out the light almost always outweighs the risk of increased flatness though, since general contrast can be easily improved. Because the image was both lacking in general contrast and saturation, the most logical choice for addressing both issues is an S-curve on a Curves adjustment layer. One concern I had with this, however, was the fact that my histogram was looking pretty good at this point. An unmasked S-curve could cause loss of shadow detail as the dark tones got too dark, and the lighter tones might also start looking too light. I certainly didn’t want to clip any shadows in this image taken in soft light, and I generally try to avoid strong whites. S-curves also can really punch up the saturation, sometimes out of proportion to the desired contrast change. A mid-tones luminosity mask (Basic Mid-tones is always a good one to try) would be useful in this case for confining the adjustment to just the mid-tones in order to keep the dark and light sides of the histogram unchanged and for providing a more gentle increase in saturation. The Basic Mid-tones masks for this image is shown below. This mask is always a bit hard to “read” in that it’s overall grayness is confusing. Essentially what a Basic Mid-tones mask reveals is the image’s mid-tones. Both the light and dark colors are darker (concealed by the mask from being adjusted) and mid-tone values are lighter (revealing the adjustment). The lack of pure black and pure white in the mask makes it seem like it would be ineffective at concealing or revealing anything in a meaningful way, but it actually does a very good job of targeting adjustments to just the image’s mid-tones, as designed, sparing the dark and light colors from being overly adjusted. The histogram below demonstrates this. The S-curve adjustment that was applied on the masked adjustment layer is shown in the figure below. Like luminosity painting, an S-curve adjustment through a Basic Mid-tones mask seems to find its way into all my images since it’s a really good way to adjust overall contrast without messing up the histogram. If the saturation looks right before the adjustment, I change the layer’s blending mode to Luminosity to avoid adding saturation to the image, but generally the boost in saturation, especially with a small adjustment like this one, looks right and improves the image. Below is the histogram before the curves adjustment was applied. The rollover is the histogram after the Curves adjustment through the Basic Mid-tones mask. Notice how the two ends of the histogram remain fixed. The improved overall contrast comes entirely from expanding the tonal range in the mid-tones. Below is how the image looked after the addition of the Curves adjustment layer with the Basic Mid-tones mask. The rollover shows the image before this adjustment layer was added. At this point I thought the on-screen version of the image was looking OK. I really didn’t see anything else that bothered me all that much. Whenever I reach this point of satisfaction, though, I make a print, and without fail, the problems I couldn’t see on my monitor are now quite obvious. I think this is because the transmitted light of the monitor makes almost everything look better. Pictures generally look better on-screen than on paper. So in this regard, viewing a print in reflected light encourages criticism, and it’s a useful tool, I believe, in helping to understand where the light in the print wants to go. The print in this case indicated a couple of problem areas, and the last two layers for this image are a direct result of viewing a hard-copy version of the image. The most obvious problem was the blue color cast in some of the white rocks. This is completely natural given the light conditions at exposure—a clear sky with post-sunset glow in the west. However, in the print it seemed like the blue contrasted too much with the warmer elements in the scene. The image had become decidedly warmer as it developed, and these cool whites now felt a bit out of place. A warming filter would take care of this, but it wasn’t needed for the entire image and not even in all the white areas. Just the blue-colored whites need to be warmed. This is a situation where a painted mask works well. I created an Photo Filter adjustment layer with a warming filter and adjusted the filter until it removed the blue in the blue-tinted white areas. The adjustment is shown below. The layer’s mask was then inverted to black to completely conceal the adjustment. A Lights luminosity selection was created to target the whites in the scene, and the marching ants were hidden. White paint was applied onto the layer mask to the blue-tinted white areas of the image. The lights selection helped target the paint to the lighter/whiter areas being painted. While this step was originally intended to remove the cool color in some of the whites, revealing some warmth in specific darker areas seemed to work well too. Because the Lights selection reaches into some of the darker tones, painting darker parts of the image turned out to be an effective way to warm-up other cool-toned areas as well. Below is the mask for the Photo Filter layer after it was painted showing the areas that were revealed to receive the warming effect. The rollover is the image before the warming was added to provide a better idea of how the blue-tinted areas in the image ware targeted for warming by the painted mask. Below is the image as it appeared after the addition of the Photo Filter layer with the painted mask. The rollover again shows how the image looked before the Photo Filter adjustment layer was added. The blue-tinted areas in the rollover are now obvious and these areas look more coherent with the rest of the image once they’re warmed up, but again, it took viewing the print to see how this adjustment could benefit the image. The final layer for this image involved color-cloning. While not all that bothersome in the on-screen version of the image, the unmatched rock color in the upper parts of the image, especially the upper right, looked unbalanced in the print. Revealing the Photo Filter warming didn’t help correct this A curve adjustment could be used to shift the color and then this color change could be revealed in the off-color rocks, but since there is plenty of the “right” color readily available in other parts of the image, an easier method is to simply paint in the desired color using the cloning color, retaining texture technique. Using this technique, the final layer is a pixel-containing layer set to Color blending mode. The desired color was sampled from other areas of the image and painted into this new layer where color change was desired. This technique worked particularly well for this image since the underlying color was slightly darker than the sampled color being painted into the layer. Color-cloning tends to lighten the painted area just a bit, so painting over a darker color keeps the area from appearing too light after painting. Generally when using this technique, I just paint the color onto the Color Clone layer at a low opacity to build up the color to the desired level. In parts of this image, however, I wanted to limit the color change to just the darker tones, so I painted through a Dark Darks and Shadow Darks selections to avoid adding the tint to the lighter tones. The image below is what the Color Clone layer looks like. Remember, this layer is set to Color blending mode so only the hue and saturation of things in this layer are transmitted to the image. The luminosity, which defines texture, comes from the composite of the layers below. The rollover shows the image before color cloning in order to see which areas were targeted to receive paint. Below is how the image looked after color-cloning. The rollover is before this technique was applied. It’s a subtle change that once again probably benefits the print more than the on-line version. In summary then, four techniques were used to provide the finishing touches to this image: luminosity painting, a Curves adjustment through a Basic Mid-tones mask, a painted mask with a Photo Filter adjustment layer, and color-cloning. The different layers for these steps are shown below. Each technique was applied after assessing the image (listening) to see where change was needed, and each was specifically chosen to address the particular concern that was uncovered. As often happens, an actual print of the image revealed more than the on-screen version, but adding layers to correct the print also led to subsequent and noticeable improvement in how the image looked on the monitor. Painted Masks NOTE: A more complete description of this mask painting technique can be found here. Luminosity painting is one of my favorite Photoshop techniques and is described in a this tutorial. It is a method for burning (darkening) and dodging (lightening) specific areas of an image and specific tones in those areas by painting through luminosity selections. Painting a layer mask for an adjustment layer is another example on how luminosity painting can be used. It provides a method to first make a global adjustment using an adjustment layer, then hiding it, and then painting to very precisely reveal the adjustment in exact areas and tones in the image. The image below shows the final version of an image where an adjustment layer with a painted luminosity mask played an important role during development. The mouse rollover is the image with this adjustment layer’s visibility turned off. (It may take a few moments for the second image to load, but once it does, you should be able to pass the mouse back and forth across the edge of the frame to flip between the before and after allow greater customization depending on what the image needs. To make this adjustment, I started by first creating a Curves adjustment layer and changing the blending mode to Multiply. how the image looked after doing this. While clearly excessive when not moderated by a mask or decreased layer opacity, Multiply (and its image-lightening counterpart, Screen) blending mode tend to make very natural-looking tonal changes to the image when properly applied. Provided that they are used in moderation, these blending modes can subtly and appropriately change image tones without unexpected saturation or contrast changes that sometimes accompany Curves and Levels adjustments. By default, Photoshop creates an all-white, reveal-all layer mask when adjustment layers are created. Once the blending mode is changed to Multiply, the image is clearly too dark because the pure white mask conceals nothing. While Multiply blending mode will benefit parts of the image eventually, this full-on effect is not desired. To return the image to its original state before the adjustment layer was added, simply type Ctrl+I (Mac: Cmd+I) to invert the layer mask from white to black. This completely hides the adjustment from the image. The menu command Image>Adjustments>Invert can also be used to do this. The figure below shows how the new layer looks on the Layers panel. It’s worth noting that no adjustment was made to the curve for this adjustment layer. Changing the blending mode from Normal to Multiply is all that was needed to darken the image. Once the desired (but exaggerated) adjustment is created and concealed, it’s necessary to create a luminosity selection to paint through to reveal the concealed adjustment just where it’s needed in the image. The easiest way to get the right selection to paint through is to make an entire series of masks on the Channels panel and choose what works best. For this image, I want to darken some of the lighter tones in the image. The Lights-series of luminosity masks provides several choices of masks that target progressively lighter tones. The figure below shows this series of masks as they appear on the Channels panel. Masks are graphical representations of selections, with light colors showing selected pixels and black representing pixels that aren’t selected. Shades of gray correspond to the degree to which pixels are selected—dark gray pixels are less selected than light gray pixels. Any mask can be turned into a selection with a Ctrl+click (Mac: Cmd+click) on the mask’s thumbnail image. Examining the masks by clicking them one-by-one on the Channels panel helps find the most appropriate one for this image. The mask that shows white (or light gray) in the areas that need to be changed (darkened in this case) is a good starting point. However, it’s also good to think about combining masks to make an even more refined selection to paint through. For most selections I use for luminosity painting, I’ll generally subtract off a selection at the extreme end of the series. So, for example, in this case I chose the Light Lights mask as targeting the tones I wanted to reveal on the adjustment layer. Instead of just creating a selection from the Light Lights mask and painting through it, however, I also subtracted off the Super Lights. I want the very lightest tones to stay nearly white, and by subtracting them from the selection that is painted through, they won’t receive much paint and will remain concealed from the adjustment and unchanged in the image. So, after creating the Lights-series of masks on the Channels panel, here’s the process for making my desired selection: 1) Ctrl+click (Mac: Cmd+click) on the Light Lights mask thumbnail—this loads this mask as a selection. 2) Alt+Ctrl+click (Mac: Opt+Cmd+click) on the Super Lights mask thumbnail—this subtracts these tones from the selection. I now have a selection that is targeting the tones enclosed by marching ants in the figure below–light tones are selected but very whitest tones are not. : Cmd+H) so they don’t hamper judging the effect that painting has on the image. Even though the selection outline is hidden, the selection will still be active and directing paint to the desired tones. Single-click on the black layer mask on the adjustment layer making sure the framing brackets are around the mask. The “color” to paint with is easy: white. The mask is 100% black, completely concealing the blending mode adjustment. To reveal the adjustment in the image, white paint needs to be applied to the mask. So make sure the foreground color is white. Type “D” to reset the colors if white is not the foreground color. Select the Brush tool by clicking on it on the Tools panel or by typing the letter “B”. The opacity setting for painting will depend somewhat on the mask(s) chosen or combined to make the selection to paint through. Selections made from masks with pure or nearly pure white areas in the mask pass more paint through the selection and require a lower opacity setting to reveal the adjustment. A good starting value for opacity in this case is 10 to 20 percent. Selections made by subtraction within the same series will often have the “white” pixels subtracted out of the selection, so a higher opacity setting is necessary to force paint through the “grayer” pixels that remain. Fifty percent is reasonable choice. One brush stroke is usually NOT sufficient to create the desired or perfect reveal of the blending-mode adjustment. There are two alternatives. If the reveal is insufficient, additional brushstrokes can be applied. Perhaps increasing the opacity or changing the size of the brush (bracket keys) will be necessary. However, layering in multiple brushstrokes to slowly reveal the adjustment is often desirable as long as each stroke makes a slightly visible difference. If the reveal is too pronounced after a single brushstroke, undo it using Ctrl+Z, (Mac: Cmd+Z), and then lower brush opacity, reduce brush size, or possibly load or create a new, more restrictive selection to paint through. The goal is to sequentially add white paint to the layer mask to allow some amount. The luminosity selection also insures that less than perfect mousing keeps paint inside the desired tonal lines. The image below shows the painted mask and can help to better understand what’s happening with this type of luminosity painting. The first thing that can be seen in the mask is an outline of parts of the image. Since the primary luminosity mask (Lights) is a gray-scale of the original image, all subsequent luminosity masks derived from this primary mask show image detail as well. A selection created by subtracting different luminosity masks, as was done in this case, still has partially selected pixels that mimic the luminosity in the original image. Painting through a selection based on the pixel variables in the original image (a pixel-based selection) recreates the contours of the image in all subsequent masks and when painting through these masks. defined by single mask, the mask can be enhanced in any area by simply applying more white paint through the selection. The enhancement can continue until the area being painted is 100% white, a complete reveal of the adjustment layer’s adjustment.. So it’s like using several luminosity masks on one layer mask and choosing which parts of them and to what degree they will benefit the image. In this case, most of the painting was done through the Light Lights minus Super Lights selection described above, but when repeated brushstrokes started to reveal darkening in some adjacent areas where darkening was not desired, a Bright Lights minus Super Lights selection was used to restrict the reveal of the adjustment to even lighter tones in the image. Once you have a feel for luminosity painting, using it to create or enhance layer masks becomes a logical next step. Painting through a pixel-based selection, like a luminosity mask, applies paint in proportion to the pixel-based selection(s) in the original mask. The pixel-based quality of the mask is retained so that. I hope that you’ll try it and that your images will benefit from this technique. A PSD file containing the complete Photoshop workflow for this image can be downloaded at the bottom of this page. eBooks from My Friends Steffen and Isa Synnatschke and Guy Tal have recently released new eBooks. This electronic publication format is becoming increasingly popular as photographers attempt to share what they know with a larger audience without the expense of traditional publishing and distribution of actual books. Tal and the Synnatschkes are good friends who I’ve encouraged to write and share what they have to offer as I believe their unique perspectives will resonate with many nature photographers. These new eBooks validate this conviction. Both offer new insights into what makes photography such a popular activity, and both provide photographers new avenues for exploration. Guy Tal’s blog is widely followed for its insightful commentary on photography. There is almost an infectious passion in his words that makes readers want to take their own photography to a higher level. Tal is now bringing this enthusiasm to a series of eBooks that take a deeper look at the creative aspects that inform his own body of work. The first was entitled “Creative Landscape” and it took readers into the natural world to explore processes for extracting personal and original compositions. It was a combination of practical knowledge and spiritual attunement that is at the heart of the creative process. The new eBook, “Creative Processing Techniques,” provides a similar perspective, but this time applied to image processing in Photoshop. The emphasis on creativity in this publication is obvious from this excerpt: “Given the irregular and unpredictable nature of creative epiphanies, your processing workflow should not be linear or very strict, but rather one of continuous refinement until the desired result is achieved. While the process has a known beginning (the RAW file) and a desired outcome (the visualized image), the transition from one to the other may be the equivalent of navigating a complex maze of paths and creative choices. A non-linear, or iterative, approach is one that relies on progressive refinement and course correction; where goals are re-examined at every step and inform the next iteration in ways that may not be obvious from the start. For best results, we may sometimes need to take a step sideways or even backwards before moving forward.”. Once again, Tal’s own words are probably best: “The digital studio offers boundless opportunity for creative expression, experimentation and infusing your work with your own style and vision. Seen in this light, it is much more than just a set of tools for adjusting or correcting pixels. Rather, it is the place where your thoughts and ideas take shape and manifest themselves visually in your creations.” This combination of practical application of software with creative exploration of the light is very much in line with my own concept of how we should approach our images and their light. I consider myself reasonably facile with Photoshop, but I still learned new techniques in Tal’s book that I’ll use to process my images from here on. And while I read it front to back to glean these pearls, it was the message that image processing is an integral part of photographic creativity that resonated most strongly. Guy Tal’s ability to fuse practical skills and existential concepts into eminently readable prose helps us all become better photographers. _____________________________________ Steffen and Isa Synnatschke are perhaps the premier place-finders when it comes to the Colorado Plateau. From their home in Dresden, Germany, they scour many online resources to assemble bits of information on possible places to photograph during their semiannual trips to the United States. They explore continuously while they’re here and, based on my own time spent in their company, frequently walk right to the place they are looking to find. Wind Song, Sandstone Nebulae, Towers of Hasi Nagi, Lower Chamber, Sitting Ducks, Desert Mushroom, Momo’s Brain, and The Wing and a Prayer are examples of images from my website that owe their existence to the Synnatschkes and their irrepressible quest for new light. Their websites (linked above) show just how many places they’ve photographed and how dedicated they are to good light. The iconic quality of many of the places discovered by the Synnatschkes makes these locations a natural draw for many photographers. If your vacation and picture-taking time is limited, photogenic subjects in the right light help insure you’ll come home with many good pictures. The Synnatschkes are particularly adept at sniffing out such sites. They have spent nearly a decade traveling and finding these places and are finally starting to share their secrets in the “Closer Look” eGuide series. They recently released their first book centered on the fascinating sandstone of Valley of Fire State Park in Nevada. This park has been one of their favorite locations over the years, and they have hiked and photographed here extensively. This is an extraordinary place with unusual sandstone everywhere you look. Their desire to explore and eye for composition have uncovered many places within the park whose photographic potential was previously unrecognized. The eGuide provides detailed information about these places: how to get there, GPS waypoints, and recommendations on the best time of day for exposure. If you’re planning to visit the Southwest and are interested in seeing or photographing some astonishing sandstone, Valley of Fire State Park should be on your itinerary and the Closer Look eGuide to it should be in your daypack.

oh my goodness hello everyone! my 6 year old trey says i don't "look like a tortured woman anymore," and i am so glad about that :o) i am slowly getting better and it feels so amazing. my 6 year old trey says i don't "look like a tortured woman anymore," and i am so glad about that :o) your prayers, comments, and emails have meant so much to me. i am getting soooo close to being able to blog again. but for now, i have something for you i am SO excited about. do you remember d! HOW TO CUSTOMIZE: 1- Pick ONE fabric for straps (black, brown, white). 2- Pick TWO fabrics for each side of the main body. 2- Pick TWO fabrics for each side of the main body. "Such a BEAUTIFUL carrier! I am so so so excited to wear it to our play group today. I feel like I need to dress up just to match how pretty it is. I LOVE it.... it really is gorgeous and so well made! It's so cute and I feel all fancy wearing it... I love my Ergo, but never realized how informal and shabby it looks now! :)" - Wendy in El Cajon, California "I absolutely love this Mei Tai and so does my daughter! I'm glad I finally found a carrier that she likes and feels comfortable in. I love, love, love the fabric!" - Amber in Tomball, Texas "Got my Mei Tai today in the mail. I LOVE IT!!! It's so pretty and the quality is excellent! Thank you!" - Liz in Ontario, Canada "This is a great carrier! I love it even more than my ergo. So pretty too! And I love the flower headband you sent, I wear them together and feel like a "pretty" mommy for a change." - Luana in San Diego, California i have seen her carriers in person, she is a perfectionist, and her work is amazing! (me and dani last year :o)) good luck! i will be back to you soon i promise! 221 comments:1 – 200 of 221 Newer› Newest» Wow, I'm soooo IN!! SO cute! I'm totally in! I love her choice in patterns and colors! P.S. Glad you are feeling better! These are gorgeous! I'm in :) I am in! I would love to win! So glad to here you are doing a bit better. GAH! This is perfect for me. We have worn out our mei tei! I so need a new one!!! yaaa! So I am for sure IN! I'm in ( : my little one would look like a doll in one of those! Adorable! I'm in!!! I love these! I am definitely in. glad you are coming back!!! and I'd love one! I am so in!! Love them!! Glad you are feeling better! You will continue to be in our prayers. Take Care and Be Well!! So glad you are feeling better! These are absolutely GORGEOUS!! I just had my second son 3 weeks ago, and this would be a perfect way to keep my hands free while chasing my 2 year old around. LOVE IT! I am in. I don't have little ones anymore, but would love to give this to one of my friends who is going to have one. So glad you are feeling better! I'd love to be entered for the giveaway. Those carriers are gorgeous! I'm in. Amazing! I'm so happy you are feeling better. So glad to hear that you are starting to be among the living again!! :o) I was planning on making my own Mai Tai for our little one on the way, but I like the idea of having someone make one for me!! Especially one as cute as these!! Thanks for the giveaway. Hope you continue to feel better everyday. I would love one...count me in! I'm so glad you're starting to feel better! :) How wonderful! and I'm absolutely in! They are beautiful! Wow those are amazing! My husband and I are expecting our first child through adoption and I would love one of these! Count me in! Glad you're feeling better! Me, me, me! I'm in! I'm SO IN! I have been playing with the idea of making one of these, but I'd much rather win one :-) alidanicolelee@gmail.com Love this!!! cutest one i have seen yet. count me in!!! So happy you're feeling better! And yes, I am IN - those are the cutest, and I definitely need one!! I am totally in! And I hope you get feeling ALL BETTER SOON! I'm in! Expecting #3 in May...this would be awesome. :) glad you're slowly feeling better...hope you're back soon!! Would LOVE to win one, I am having #3 in 8 weeks!n I am IN!!! Thanks for the giveaway :) I'm SO in! My sis is pregnant with her first, and this would be an amazing gift!!!! SO glad to hear you're feeling better!!! Let it be ME!!!! Please! Having a baby in July and this would be perfect. Glad you are improving. i have been wanting one of these for a while now, love them! i'm in for sure! beautiful fabric choices she has! aaclampitt@gmail.com p.s. so glad you are doing better! Ah.dorable! This would make a terrific baby gift for one of my great friends whose first will be here in August. She too has been on bed rest with complications. Glad you are getting better. I don't have to know you to pray for you! These carriers are ABSOLUTELY adorable!!! They are beautiful! I'm so IN! I'm in! these are so cute! i would love one! and im so glad you are starting to feel a bit better! Oh my goodness, these are gorgeous! I am definitely in. Ooh. I am in. I think one of my friends got one of those at her baby shower last year! They are awesome. yes please! I am definitely in. So glad you are feeling better!! For sure I am in! Do you know how many pounds they will hold? Thanks for the great giveaway! -Brittany Ooooh buddy, I'm in. Would LOVE one of these- they're gorgeous!! I'm in! I'm in! Those are GORGEOUS!! I'm due in July and would LOVE one! Glad to hear you are feeling better. Can't wait for you to be back! I would LOVE one of these...count me in! I'm so in! Just found out i'm preggie with baby number 4 and still haven't found 'that perfect carrier'! This looks like it's the one:) Thanks for the info on Dani...think I'll be hitting up her Etsy shop soon:) These are SO beautiful! I would LOOOOOVE one! ;) me me me! i LOVE these! little baby's coming in september! glad to hear you're feeling better (or starting to) tanya. i've been checking your blog almost every day, hoping to see that you're back! :) LOVE those!!! I'M IN!!! Those carriers look awesome! Count me in! mrs_alee@yahoo.com gorgeous! Wow! Pick me Pick me!! What a great gift idea too! Love it! Count me in too! I am so glad you are starting to feel better! Would love to win this. She's alive! ;) Love that you are blogging. Henry is going to need this. Love ya! Love them! I'm in. Totally a better way to carry around an immobile one-year-old. So glad you're feeling better! I'm due with #4 in 5 weeks, and it has been a very long and rough road!!! I would love one of these carriers! They are Gorgeous!!! INSANE AMOUNTS of 'IN' for me! I'm SO glad you are feeling better!!! I don't even know you but I was worried about you and your family! I"m so glad you're doing better. I can't imagine having to go through what you do!!! PS I'm definitely in!! :) Glad to read that you are still alive!!! :) Hope you are 100% soon! i hope i get randomly chosen. this would be a great gift! Would love to win one for my little babe....glad to hear you are on the mend i'm soooo happy you are feeling better! oh, and of course i am IN for the giveaway! thanks mucho! would love one of those carriers! such nice fabric choices. I am so in, and I am so excited to see you blogging! We have missed you! Love these carriers, they are GORGEOUS! These carriers are too cute! I'm definitely in! What a great thing to win...I love all of the fabric choices! Those are gorgeous!! So happy to hear you're feeling better!! =) with #3 on the way I'd LOVE to enjoy this mei tei!!! please pick me! I love the choice of fabrics and I need something cute to carry my baby in (and to inspire me to dress in something nicer than my "mommy uniform"). I am in it to win it!! Thanks! First baby girl due in a month! I am in! eeek! I'm so in!!! I'm really happy your starting to feel better. I hope you keep getting well! :) Take care! blancacarlson@live.com These are adorable. I am in!! :) I WANT one!! These are so gorgeous. P.S. You dont know me, but I follow your blog. I have missed your updates and was very sorry to hear you are having such a hard pregnancy. I am glad to hear things are getting better. Those look like they would be very comfy! I would love to use it with my 3 month old! these are are so pretty! She is soo talented! So glad you are feeling better:D I would be honored to own one:) I would live one of these for my 8 week old stud muffin!! Count me in. So glad you are doing better, best wishes. Ooooo this will come in handy for my baby girl. I'm in for the drawing. Prayers and blessings to you as you recover. Hope you are well soon! I love it! So many polka dots to choose from :) So beautiful! I would love to have one. Glad you are feeling better! Love the carriers!!! I'm in! These are adorable :) I'm in!! Love these, they are adorable Glad you're almost ready to blog again :) these are beautiful! can't wait till you are posting more. So glad you are feeling better. I would definitely love one of these. I've been wondering how I'm going to haul a newborn around while chasing a 20 month old outside this summer. This would be perfect! I'm a foster mom to little babies and that carrier looks awesome!! I would love to own one! Count me in! But most of all, so glad you are feeling better. I don't know you personally, more of you from church in the Pacific NW and your blog, but reading your story made me feel for you. I am incredibly grateful that you are so willing to be a mother despite the challenges. You are a fabulous woman. Congrats! how do you choose just one? these are beautiful! thanks for the chance, i'm in! Oh my I could use one of those so bad! I have a 3 month old that WILL NOT let me put him down!! I'm crossing my fingers! Thanks :) I'm in, too! Those carriers are the shiz. how cute, I've never seen one like this, I'd love to win such a beautiful piece. So glad to see that your are feeling better and back to blogging! We're also expecting and would love a carrier! Great giveaway! Tara ~A Mustard Seed Dream I'm in!! This would be perfect for #3 due in May! i love Dani! I met her a few months ago, and she's doing a giveaway over at my blog next month! love it! can I win anyway, even though I know her! I want one!!!!! Very cute! I'm in!!! So glad the "torture" is almost over!! I would love to give a Mei Tai to my sister who will be adopting her first baby in a couple of weeks. She would love it!!! Count me in!! Thank you! Oh I would love one of these! I am due with my first in August :) Hi, I am glad you are feeling better! We are both due in September. This will be my first and I would love to win. Thanks, Jessica I am due in August and so in! Love it. (Plus my word verification is 'dhani.' What the...I should win:) ohhhh! I am in! Love these Sarah I'm in! I love to read your blog! So glad u are feeling better..progress is progress... No kids for me yet, but we are trying! Love the carrier so beautiful, and what talent! Oooh yes!! Pick me! :) I would absolutely love one! They are so beautiful and look really comfy for both mom and the little one. Would love to be entered please :) Dani IS amazing. I wish we could see more of her and the beautiful family she has. I am in and in! If I don't ever win won of these I am for sure purchasing.....in the somewhat near future. :) I'm totally in! And so excited to see you blogging! I am IN! Such a beautiful giveaway! Love the choice of colors and patterns. I'm IN! These are so cute! Glad you are feeling better too! Just found out two weeks ago I'm pregnant! I'd love to have one of these! kristina {dot} noall {at} gmail {dot} com I'm in! You can TOTALLY count me in. Gorgeous carriers! So happy you are feeling better! I would love to win this, what a neat gift. Pick me...Pick me! It's good to see you blog again...I think about you all the time! Keep hanging in there...Love you tons! Beautiful!! I'd love to give one of these to my sister-in-law, due in late July. :-) Count me in! wow! Beautiful carrier!!! I would love love love one! :-) ps - Welcome back! I am so happy you are starting to feel better. I am in! Beautiful! I AM IN...they look AMAZING, she is surely talented ;-) Thanks for the give away! I am in- because they are super sweet!! I'm in!! These carriers look amazing! casnell@gmail.com Oh I am in!!! They are so DARLING!! OH my goodness; I'm in! These are the cutest baby carriers I've ever seen! We just found out we're expecting #2 so we will definitely be needing one of these! LOVE IT, her fabrics are awesome & I would love to carry my little one in it! I am in!! Those carriers are so adorable! Way cuter than the ones in the store!! So glad you're feeling better!! I would love a carrier for my new little boy! I LOVE the fall leaves fabric! What a beautiful way to carry a baby. I'm in! Would love this! How awesome- and beautiful! Glad you're feeling better, too! --Joanna These are awesome!! I'm in! SO glad to hear your doing better. Im sooo in!! Count me in! They look amazing! This would be great for my BFF's baby shower coming up soon! it would be perfect for my sis. thanks for hosting the giveaway I'm in!!! So glad you are starting to feel better. Those look amazing! I love that she is showing an older baby it it! I would LOVE one of these. Dani is amazing! She makes amazing stuff and i am always in awe of what she does. Whoever wins this is very lucky. I'm in! those are beautiful! This is perfect timing!! :] I am hunting for a perfect carrier as it's been 5 years since I've needed one. These are just gorgeous!! Thanks for the giveaway and am SO glad to hear your are feeling better!! Sounds Awesome! I am def in :-) Glad to see you're on the mends! Thanks for offering this giveaway :) I'm in! Those are cute :) I'm in!! I am in! With baby 2 on the way Im definitely going to need one of these and they are so beautiful!! Wow, those are beautiful. I am having our second child in July and would so need one of those! Praying that you just keep getting better and better! I'm in! oooh... I've been wanting to try one of these. If I don't win, maybe I'll just add it to my ridiculously growing registry list. haha I'm grateful things are getting better for you! Hope you continue to improve. I'd love to be included in the drawing!! so glad you're feeling better.. my little one has outgrown her sling and i would love to win one of these. :) I am so glad you are starting to feel better, I was thinking about you today as I started to read blog and though, "I should tell her that even though I've never met her I really do think and pray for her" So there ya go! And of course, I would love to win a carrier! I'm expecting my 2nd in June and that would be so nice to have! I'm SO in. This would be a great baby shower gift for a friend =) I'm totally in. I'm due in September and would love one of these. Of course!! I'm in and they sure do look fabulous! I am so in! What a beautiful carrier, would love one! P.S. Been thinking about you, glad you are feeling better! I would love to win one! Having a baby in 4 months, I AM IN!!! They are beautiful! Please count me in Oh my goodness, do I need one of these. My one year old would love to be carried on my back. Thanks for the fantastic giveaway. Heather heatherclark at gmail dot com Bless your heart! The things we do for little babies! Glad you are doing better! Count me in! I'll keep my fingers crossed! super cute! sign me up :] Love it!!!!! and it would come in handy with my new little one and toddler running around. Thanks! marthablake3@gmail.com I just had baby boy #5 so this would be perfect. You can diff. count me in. Thanks a bunch!!! So cute! I'm expecting a little girl (I have 2 cute boys) about a week before you are due :) I would LOVE one of these! super cute! i would love one of those for baby #2 that is on the way:)count me in! Oh my gosh, I am so happy to hear from you! I have been checking in on your blog every day hoping and praying that you have updated, you are in my thoughts pretty much daily. Sounds like I'm a weirdo but I'm not, just a crafty Mum of two like you. I would love to win the mei tai, can i enter even though I am in Australia? So glad you are feeling a bit better and not looking like a "tortured woman" :) Grace Oh wow! Please count me in Tanya! I mde a Mei Tai carrier for Asha, but Dani's design is SO much nicer! That would be so great to win!!! Glad to hear you are getting better! I've actually wondered about you a lot since your last post and have hoped things were looking up for you! Excited to see you back here, but more than anything, just be healthy! woo hoo! you are back! I said Yippy outloud at work when i saw you posed something. I am so glad you are feeling well enough to atleast blog a little. as for the carrier, I am so in! these are awesome looking! my friend says they are amazing - i would love to try it out! Pick me, pick me! I'm new to this blog and wow what a treat! These are BEAUTIFUL!!! Yay for feeling better- I got excited when I saw a new post! ...and I'm totallyin, and is baby#3 ;) angiepritchard(at)gmail(dot)com In! And now a follower, thanks to babble :) These are so cute! i love everything in her shop too! This is the one thing I have said I want for a next baby! Count me in! I'd love to have one of these for a future baby. wow! i would LOVE one of these to carry my little dude around in! :) stephanie. These are so cute! I would love to carry my new baby girl (due in a few weeks) around in one! Count me in! Wow, those are BEAUTIFUL!!!! I'm in! I am in too. Rosie and I would love to rock West Hollywood in one of her cute carriers! I am sooooooooo IN! Those are awesome and I love the fabrics! Pick me! I'm in, definitely YES! So Cute! I would love to give this as a gift! jordyn.e.black@gmail.com I was thinking of getting an Ergo...but it looks like this is better! I'm in please!!! pick me pick me random generator!!! :) i would love one for my new little guy coming in June!! Oooh I'm in! Such a beautiful product, so darn crafty! If it is not too late- count me in! I would love one!! I'm in!! I'd love to win!! I'd also love to do a giveaway on your blog if you like what I make! You can check my things out at: I'd be happy to make something for your new one on the way! I am in, in, in! Baby girl due in August needs this, since she's the fifth, and I am completely out of free hands at this point! Holy smokes I would love the green damask with a solid green and white straps! Oh and hang in there! Smoochies! Love these!!!! Very cute! Glad you are feeling better, and hope you continue to :) these are beautiful! i am definitely in!! so glad that you are feeling better. i'm pregs right now also - i think i am due 5 days later than you :) i've been sick, but nearly as sick as you, and have thought on many occasions how difficult it must be to go through what you're going through. sending continued love :) - Jane Oh I am so glad you are feeling better! I have been checking weekly for any sign! I would love a carrier. You should probably win it though! I love these! My little girl loves to ride around with me and this would be a nice change from using a wrap. Glad you're feeling better! I LOVE this carrier- consider me IN! I am so in. It looks fantastic! I would love one! Thanks for sharing. Ummm...me please! (It will make keeping up with my older two littles easier if I can carry my new baby in one! like the material options! Would love to win it to carry my 5 mth old in!!

Archive for the ‘marriage promotion’ Category Good news on federal policy for families in poverty Stop taking low-income fathers’ money away from their children; help fathers form better relationships with children and mothers; don’t make legal marriage more important than good parenting. Finally, the federal government’s approach to the role of family structure in the lives of low-income children is starting to look more reasonable and realistic. In a conference call last week, two Special Assistants to the President revealed the administration’s new strategy for TANF grants. The $150 million annual allocation for Healthy Marriage and Responsible Fatherhood will be split evenly between the two program types ($75M for marriage and $75M for fatherhood) in next year’s budget as well as this year’s current funding. There will be a new competition for these funds, and previous grantees will have to demonstrate past success to be considered for future grants. Marriage programs can’t get fatherhood funds just to keep doing marriage stuff (or vice versa). This amounts to a permanent 25% reduction in marriage promotion and 33% increase in fatherhood funding. On the call, Martha Coven, Special Assistant to the President for Mobility and Opportunity, described it as a welcome increase for fatherhood. She also said the administration had decided to follow this funding pattern because it was acceptable to Congress, rather than dig in to fight for the much bigger state-level competition for innovative marriage, fatherhood and family programming which it had proposed last year. The call further revealed the administration’s much bigger focus on fatherhood, in the form of a package of improvements to the child support system worth $2.8 billion over 10 years (i.e., averaging $280 million annually). The world of low-income child support collection is maddening for everyone, not least because it was originally designed as a cost recovery plan for welfare agencies. This design concept causes friction between mothers and fathers, fathers and children, families and agencies, courts and jails, and even between the federal and state governments. Much of the proposed federal funding will be used to pay the states to modernize and humanize their systems. Not my area of expertise, but sounds like a really good idea! Now here’s the less good news – the line between fatherhood programs and marriage promotion is not as bright as you might hope. Here’s how federal law describes fatherhood programming (italics added): 1). 2) Activities to promote responsible parenting through activities such as counseling, mentoring, and mediation, disseminating information about good parenting practices, skills-based parenting education, encouraging child support payments, and other methods. 3). 4) Activities to promote responsible fatherhood that are conducted through a contract with a nationally recognized, nonprofit fatherhood promotion organization, such. So, we can enjoy a modest celebration but it’s not time to kick back and relax. We’re pursuing two goals in 2011: first, to influence the ongoing use of TANF funds so that programs are less rigidly focused on marriage and more helpful to people in diverse relationships; second, to influence the reauthorization of TANF so that marriage promotion will not be stated as its primary purpose for the next five years. You can help! Take on a specific research or outreach task. Recruit a brilliant summer intern. Contribute towards a stipend so the intern can afford to take this job. Will Obama really fund failed marriage programs? The President of the United States has proposed the federal budget – his wish list of revenues and expenses covering the period October 1, 2011 – September 30, 2012. Budgets, whether federal, nonprofit or family, are statements of priorities, goals and hopes. AtMP keeps an eye on certain federal budget lines that show whether the government promotes legal, different-sex marriage as being better than other relationships or family forms. Unfortunately, while cutting things people really need, the President is proposing to fund two marriage-related programs that should be abandoned because they are insulting at best, and downright dangerous at worst: - the grant program called Healthy Marriage and Responsible Fatherhood is still carving out $150 million per year from welfare funds under the umbrella of Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF). - to paraphrase our friends at SIECUS (the Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States), the President is also continuing to put $50 million a year into Title V abstinence-only-until-marriage programs, which have been widely discredited and proven by the federal government’s own study to be ineffective. I’ll get to the second program another time. Today I’m wondering: Why are the TANF programs still funded? Marriage programs are not a presidential priority. In his budget statement, Obama does not mention marriage at all. He does discuss fatherhood, mostly in the context of the very good idea of urging states to let fathers’ child support payments reach their children instead of getting absorbed into state treasuries. But it took quite a bit of digging to find any reference to this funding continuation (fellow wonks, see page 473). The administration knows that marriage programs don’t work. An evaluation of an eight-site TANF-funded marriage program found no net effects on participants’ relationships. The President’s team tried to replace marriage programs last year. Joshua Dubois – Special Assistant to the President and Executive Director of the White House Office of Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships – spearheaded a campaign to replace marriage programs with a potentially better, experimental package focused on the economic needs of low-income parents. (We commented on it extensively here.) Congress moved money from marriage to fatherhood last year. When Congress extended budget lines instead of passing a whole budget last year, it assigned $75 million instead of $100 million to marriage programs. Fatherhood programs got a corresponding increase from $50 to 75 million. In sum, I see a glimmer of hope. Although the title and size of the budget item is the same, maybe there’s a plan to develop a completely different kind of operating program using that money. AtMP and our allies will keep an eye on it, and we’ll weigh in with suggestions about how federal funds could be put to good use to reduce poverty and improve child outcomes. Here are some basic components: financial assistance to cover food, shelter, health care etc; early childhood education; relationship skills and supports to help adults be great parents and partners. Want more ideas about how reducing poverty can improve a child’s prospects ? There’s a compelling article by Duncan and Magnuson article starting on page 25 of this magazine on poverty, inequality and social policy. Marriage programs return to federal welfare budget In the waning days of the year, marriage programs poured on the charm (i.e., lobbied like mad) and got themselves partially reinstated in the federal budget. Congress had not included marriage programs when it funded Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF, the umbrella welfare program) from October through December 2010. However, it did include them in the new extension through September 2011, though at only three-quarters of their previous dollar level – $75 million instead of $100 million. Fatherhood programs got a corresponding increase from $50 to 75 million. From the sidelines, it can be interesting to watch the tug of war between marriage and fatherhood programs. The Obama administration wanted to merge them into one, even bigger, program that would be managed by the states. Our analysis of all that is available here. Congress also seemed to favor programs that help low-income fathers get jobs and stay involved with their kids. A bill called the Julia Carson Responsible Fatherhood and Healthy Families Act of 2009 (H.R. 2979) was being considered as an alternative to the administration’s proposal. That bill would have to start from scratch in the new Congress. The extra year of funding will allow Congress (and us) to review the evaluation results for many more marriage programs before deciding whether to include them in the full five-year reauthorization of TANF. Of course, the programs are acutely aware of the importance of demonstrating positive results. Marriage is not an anti-poverty strategy Last month we quietly celebrated the end of federal welfare funding for marriage programs. One reason our cheer was so muted was that Congress had let the programs die with a whimper by refusing to act on the President’s budget proposal. Instead of ensuring a safety net for very-low income people for years to come, Congress gave just a few months extension to Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF – the main anti-poverty program). The extension did not cover marriage programs, nor did it cover “the Emergency Fund, which was created as a stimulus effort and helped millions of very low-income people make ends meet through the worst part of the Great Recession.” Next year we can hope for a full renewal of the safety net, plus a proper debate about whether marriage or relationship education belong in welfare funding. At about that same anti-climactic moment, the Women of Color Policy Network published an interesting report about unmarried mothers. It has lots of good information, but strangely does not recommend policies to reduce marital status discrimination. This is especially surprising given single mothers’ low incomes, which might get a lift if we prohibited marital status discrimination in employment (yes, that’s still legal in all states except these). Single mothers not only earn less than men, but they earn only 77 percent as much as married women with children and 87 percent as much as single women without children. In contrast, unmarried men with children earned 8 percent more than unmarried men without children. As the report says, “lower earnings no doubt contribute to the wealth gap for single mothers, but they are just the tip of the iceberg.” Here are a few interesting excerpts about the intersection of wealth and marital status: There is no single reason for the lack of wealth among single women mothers; the reasons are manifold and interrelated: lower wages and life-time earnings, occupational segmentation, lack of access to wealth escalators such as retirement and pension plans, and historic structural and institutional discrimination, among others. … … Single mothers who have never been married have less wealth than women whose pathway to single motherhood was through divorce or widowhood. Divorced or widowed single mothers have a median wealth of $7,500 whereas single mothers who never married have a median wealth of zero. … … Marriage is associated with higher wealth for two reasons: first, many women wait until they are financially stable to marry; second, marriage has wealth-building advantages such as economies of scale. Upon divorce, mothers may be able to access any wealth accumulated during marriage. Additionally, divorced single mothers are much more likely to receive child support, which gives them more disposable income to save or invest. … Note to marriage promoters: these correlations still do NOT make marriage an ethical or effective anti-poverty strategy. No more welfare funds for marriage promoters This week, AtMP sent the Senate Finance Committee a petition calling for the end of federally-funded marriage promotion, along with detailed analysis and recommendations on the use of anti-poverty funds for marriage and fatherhood programs. AtMP’s statement describes the differences between marriage promotion, relationship education, and fatherhood programs. We ask Congress to use the evidence it has received to set performance standards for President Obama’s proposed $500 million Fatherhood, Marriage and Families Innovation Fund. In contrast to President Bush’s $750 million program, we want the new Fund to - serve only low-income people; - not discriminate on the basis of marital status or sexual orientation, nor stigmatize unmarried - relationships; - make relationship education inclusive of all relationships; - develop standards, educational requirements and/or an accreditation system for relationship - educators; - let service providers work from their strengths rather than pursue fads; - help men and women be great parents and partners, not husbands and wives; - not confuse parenting with gender role-modeling; and - gather and publish evaluation results quickly. Finally, we suggest directions for re-envisioning federal anti-poverty efforts, with the ultimate goal of eliminating poverty. All people, including people in poverty, should be legally and economically free to choose whether and when to marry or form other healthy relationships. Read the entire testimony and see the petition signatories here. Learn more about AtMP’s decade of research and advocacy on welfare-funded marriage promotion here. Want to receive special alerts about this work? Be sure to check the box for “marriage promotion” when you sign up here. Make) Big news on welfare-funded marriage programs: they don’t work At last, a moment we’ve been waiting for! The release of a major evaluation of marriage programs funded by federal welfare dollars titled “Early Impacts from the Building Strong Families Project,” written by Mathematica Policy Research Inc. under a federal contract. Punch line: they don’t work. The executive summary is very worth reading. It does not sugar-coat the dismal results, and I love the opening line: “Although most children raised by single parents fare well, …” Our friend Shawn Fremsted at Center for Economic & Policy Research does a nice job of summarizing, concluding that the federal Healthy Marriage Initiative was a mistake that shouldn’t be repeated. Hear hear! Rather than re-hash, I’ll add a comment on how the report’s detailed information about program operations speaks to the question of whether marriage programs should receive anti-poverty funds. I’m writing from the perspective of having spent 13 years working in low income neighborhoods around NYC, designing and running social service and housing programs for TANF* recipients and other community residents. Mathematica reports that “Most BSF programs had little or no effect on relationships; however, there were two notable exceptions. The Oklahoma City program had a consistent pattern of positive effects, while the Baltimore program had a number of negative effects.” Oklahoma City was the only one using a relationship curriculum especially designed for low-income / low-literacy couples. Baltimore recruited couples with the lowest incomes and the lowest levels of commitment to each other or the program. Oklahoma City’s program was purpose-built; Baltimore’s was added to a pre-existing program “known for providing employment and fatherhood services to low-income men since 1999.” Although only 45% of participants in OK City graduated, that is five times higher than all the other programs. There are many other distinctions, of course. But these few suggest that these marriage programs didn’t just fail, they failed to address the realities of people with very low incomes who could have been receiving more effective anti-poverty services if TANF funds hadn’t been diverted by marriage-happy politicians. We eagerly await the release of more marriage program evaluations. To learn more about the upcoming evaluations, and what we hope to learn from them, turn to page 14 of Let Them Eat Wedding Rings. Sign the petition to help us stop the federal government from throwing more good money after bad! If you are an expert on TANF and/or represent an organization that is working on TANF issues, join our professional coalition! ——- *TANF = Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, the primary federal welfare program. Becoming an Adult Without Getting Married When does a person become an adult? What is adulthood, and why does it matter? How have the answers to these questions changed over time, and what do the changes mean for American society? How should civic institutions respond? These fascinating questions are the subject of Transition to Adulthood, the latest in a research series called The Future of Children published by Princeton’s Woodrow Wilson School (my alma mater) and the Brookings Institution. This anthology of 10 essays does not answer all those questions. In fact, it doesn’t seem to recognize that some exist; but, it does provide valuable insight into demographic trends and policy responses. Why review it here? Because, according to one of the authors, Becoming an adult has traditionally been understood as comprising five core transitions – leaving home, completing school, entering the workforce, getting married, and having children. However, Today… only about half of Americans consider it necessary to marry or have children to be regarded as an adult. The question begs so hard it practically jumps off the page: should marriage and parenthood still be understood as markers of adulthood by researchers and policy makers? Amazingly, none of the 19 authors in this anthology seem interested in changing their traditional understanding. For example, one lists women’s tendency “to delay marriage and parenthood” as a factor that has “helped to delay and complicate the passage to adulthood.” Even the use of “transition” (singular) in the book’s title suggests the authors’ devotion to the idea of one right way to become an adult, despite the rich diversity of reality which their data describe so well. Equally amazing, none of the authors unpack the implied moral or normative value of adulthood; no one explains why it matters. Of course, I’d rather live in a country where my fellow adults act like adults, not like children. But my common sense definition of “acting like an adult” has little to do with the “five core transitions.” A book that recommends governmental and civic action towards a goal ought to justify why that goal is good for individuals and society. Instead, the closest it comes to explaining why adulthood matters is to describe the negative consequences of the extended transition. … [F]irst … the growing burden placed on the middle- and lower-income families who were providing their children with schooling, housing, health insurance and income well beyond the age range of 18 – 21, the traditional age of majority. … [S]econd… the unexpected strain being imposed on key social institutions. One thing the anthology does very well is highlight the different life patterns experienced by people of different gender, race/ethnicity, economic class and immigration history. For example, it cites one study of children of immigrants who (rather than becoming a long-term burden) provide regular or even total financial support to their parents, and another study finding that children of immigrants “differed in several ways from conventional American norms of departing the parental household and setting up a separate home.” Another question begged: whose norms are “conventional?” A different essay mentions that “youth and parents from less-advantaged families continue to favor an earlier departure from the home than do those of more advantaged means.” Furthermore, “women are typically younger than men when they leave home because they complete college earlier, form cohabiting unions earlier, and marry about two years earlier, on average, than men.” However, “young mothers who do not enter a union before bearing a child typically remain in the parental home for several years and receive financial support and child care from their parents.” What Transition to Adulthood does best is provide heaps of fascinating data. Here are just a few highlights about marriage and its alternatives: “About half of high school seniors say that they plan to cohabit as couples before they marry. … By age 34, 7 in 10 have tied the knot. … [T]he percentages of people who have never married, and who are intentionally childless, are higher now than at any other time in American history….” Given this nation’s obsession with marriage and parenting – and our politicians’ willingness to legislate behavior – I was especially struck by the fact that, while there are many studies of people who are relatively rich or poor, “[r]esearchers know far less about the family formation patterns of young adults who grow up in families with modest resources.” Isn’t that the majority of us? I was also glad to see recognition that “young people who can build stronger and wider connections to adults other than parents (for example, teachers and adult mentors) also end up faring better than those who do not.” (emphasis in original) With essays on education, labor, the military, civic engagement and “vulnerable populations,” as well as the immigration and family formation sections I’ve highlighted, Transition to Adulthood offers plenty of food for thought. I do hope that its target audience of “policy makers, practitioners and the media” will dig into the rich details and give more thought to what adulthood is, how people get there, and why it matters. Otherwise, we’ll end up with more legal carrots and sticks, more media hype, and less real help to build a society where we all can thrive. Why TANF must give economic aid & help all relationships Two heartrending news articles crossed my desk this morning. Both highlight the reasons that TANF (the main federal anti-poverty program) should focus on economic assistance. They also point to the importance of healthy relationships for all people, regardless of marital status. If any federal money is going to pay for relationship education, it really must be available to people in every type of relationship. Women’s e-News details how the recession contributed to an increase in domestic violence. The New York Times details how evictions have a disparate impact on unmarried African-American women. President Obama’s budget proposal offers a one-year extension and expansion of marriage programs. Few details are available yet, but we’re inclined to agree with our colleague Wendy Mink, who writes. If you haven’t signed our TANF petition yet, now is the time! Conversations with a chief marriage promoter A few days ago as I was heading into the office, my Blackberry picked up an email posting to AtMP-Talk, our interactive listserve. AtMP-TALK has been hosting important, enlightening and sometimes silly conversations among over 500 members for over a decade, but it had been pretty quiet in recent months. This posting caught my eye not only because it broke the silence, but also because of the writer’s name: Chris Gersten. “Gee, that sounds familiar” I thought as I walked up the stairs and unlocked the office door, then “nah, it couldn’t be him!” When my PC warmed up, I confirmed that yes, Chris Gersten is the chairman of the Fatherhood & Marriage Leadership Insititute, and yes, he has been lurking on our listserve since mid-September (not coincidentally, around the same time I last blogged about FAMLI). I posted his brief bio to the list and wondered what would happen next. Chris’s initial message made several general statements about the value of marriage and government-funded marriage programs, including [M]arriage is the critical building block for every civilization since the dawn of time. It is the institution that all the social science research tells us is best for children to be raised in. It is also very difficult for people in marriages to maintain strong relationships over the years. There is nothing wrong with society and government understanding that it is in the interest of the broader society for married couples to get help. Of course, Chris works to secure not only government understanding, but big funding for marriage programs. AtMP opposes this use of funds, and invites the public to sign our petition. Member responses came in quickly. Almost all were thoughtful, detailed, respectful and passionate about cherishing diversity, protecting children and supporting relationships. I’m really proud that AtMP has such wise members! Here is a brief sample of what AtMP members said: FAMILIES are the critical building block. People need to be “built” in stable families in order to become adults who function well regardless of the living situation they choose. Adults who live alone aren’t destroying society. But children can’t be single; they need families. What the social science research tells us is that children do best with a consistent, reliable family and adequate physical and emotional care. Married parents look good in research because the majority of consistent two-adult households are married ones. However, studies of other family types such as stable same-sex couples show that the important variable is not marriage but stability–having the same adults in the family throughout childhood. There are many advantages to having more than one adult (particularly with more than one child) but single parents who intentionally became parents while single tend to do very well. - ‘Becca Several people echoed and expanded on the importance of family stability and relationship education. I was going to ask about the nature of the help for married couples that is being funded, and why it wouldn’t be helpful for unmarried couples as well. You’ve explained that marriage education programs are really relationship education for all. Why not just call it that? Isn’t that a worthy goal? - Kelly Chris, if you replaced the word “marriage” with “loving, intimate, relationship” I might agree with a lot of what you say. However, marriage as a social/cultural/legal status has little to do with whether a relationship is loving or intimate! Programs should be aimed at improving love, communication, and intimacy in all relationships. Then the children would really benefit. - Rene Others raised questions and theories about the evolution of marriage and its connection to poverty. Jobs for women pay less and are less likely to provide health insurance. Day care is expensive, and women’s wages simply aren’t high enough. Marriage has been a building block of civilizations because women have been relegated out of society outside the home. … We should be working to raise people up out of poverty, and marriage will *not* create that change. Improving work environments for women, creating opportunity in impoverished neighborhoods, and putting a stop to the shaming of single parents and their children will greatly help improve outcomes for children of single parents. - Carolyn Marriage was created as a mechanism by which to manage property. Our idea of “love marriage” is a recent invention. Marriage has historically been a partnership formed by families (most marriages were arranged in all cultures for centuries) for financial reasons. - Jillian Chris replied to most member responses, mentioning (but not formally citing) studies, percentages, experts and pastors, and stating “these are not just opinions. They are facts.” Our studious members were ready. You know what, Chris? MARRIAGE CAUSES DIVORCE. There is a 100% correlation, and the causation is clear: Every divorced couple was married before divorce! Speaking more seriously … as best I can recall from my reading, child poverty and infant mortality have *decreased* significantly since 1960 (although there have been upticks recently, they’re not back up to pre-1960 levels), low birth weight is still a problem but hasn’t changed much, and child abuse is hard to measure reliably because of drastic changes in reporting standards. - ‘Becca How DARE you call me or my kids a national disaster. Several members referred to Dr. Bella DePaulo’s careful analysis of marriage studies, and at least one contacted her offline to ask her to weigh in, which she did: Thanks to those of you who recommended my book and my blog. Since Chris has specifically challenged my work (obviously, without reading it), I’ll say a bit more. Chapter 9 of my book, SINGLED OUT, is about the children of single parents. There, I explain why Chris’s claims do not pass muster and how those studies are so widely misinterpreted. (Because Chris seems to value appeals to authority over a close reading of the original research, I’ll mention that my PhD is from Harvard, I have more than 100 academic publications to my name, and I’ve taught graduate courses in research methods for decades.) My chapter directly addresses some of the claims Chris makes, such as the one about the alleged drug abuse among the children of single parents. I explain, in detail, how particular kinds of studies are misrepresented; so if you make the same methodological mistake each time (such as confusing correlation with causality, as Rachel pointed out), it doesn’t matter if you have 50 studies or 50,000 studies – if they are flawed, they can’t be used to support your point. I stay on top of studies that have appeared after Singled Out was published. Many of my critiques can be found in a recent collection, SINGLE WITH ATTITUDE. I’ve also posted some critiques at my Living Single blog at Psychology Today. Here are a few specifically relevant to the points about the children of single parents: 1. Children of Single Mothers: How Do They Really Fare? 2. It Takes a Single Person to Create a Village 3. TIME’s Misleading Cover Story on Marriage - Bella DePaulo Members were uniformly unimpressed by Chris’s responses, and after about 48 hours the email storm collapsed in a heap of fatigue and curiosity, with members asking “Why is a former Bush Administration official on this listserve?” and “Are you just bored and looking for someone to harangue?” Tiresome as it may be, we can expect many more conversations like this in 2010, because federal funding for marriage programs is up for renewal this year. If you agree that anti-poverty funds should be dedicated to reducing poverty, and relationship education should help everyone regardless of marital status, then please sign our petition!

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Keep up the good work:) following you back as well! xx k, i am one, pretty damn stoked you even left me a comment (i wont go on about how sweet, but we all know your face is just damn stunning...) but i completely love you, your blog, and am also following. stay in touch xx love your blazer! its very trendy :) Love the outfit, the jeans is just too hot :) xx I can't believe you have a Chloe bag, you're so lucky! :) I want a Chloe bag so bad, not exactly that style, but I've been dying for a Chloe bag. Hopefully soon I can get one. lol :D Have a Good Day! David VirtuallyStunning.blogspot.com Hi Annabelle! Thrilled you found my blog and left a lovely comment, because it has lead me to your own gorgeously decadent blog. Now as for the orange handbag, well I have a serious addiction to handbags {last count over 50...eeks} and orange is such a wonderful colour that of course I think it looks wonderful! But I am also rather impressed with your elegant white shoes too. aw I'm flatted someone as gorgeous + awesome blog is a follower:)It's nice to see a fresh face! i'm now following you as well. love your photos!!! cute jacket by the way ;) Wow, cool outfit! The colour of the bag is simply perfect, I like it very much. And your blazer is really nice, love it! xoxo i love how comfortable, yet elegant you look :))) thank you for the lovely comment and for following! your blog and style is perfection and i am following right back :))) O...M...G!!! I literaly gasped when I saw your bag! That color is gorgeous! Awesome bag ;) I got it in black, but the pale pink version you have is definitely awesome! Miri's Castle Thank you so much for your comment !! I love your blog your style !! You are so beautiful and the style is perfect ! I follow you !! Xoxo Great great outfit, i love the color combo and the layers genius and that orange Chloe bag is just gorgeous!!!! You look amazing ! I love everything you're wearing ! xManon Will you please check out my blog sometime? You can follow me if you like ! I love you blog!! it's fantastic!! i follow you!!! i love your shoes and your bag too!! mavitrapos.blogspot.com The bag is beautiful! Love your blog Lifelover In love with this outfit!! thanks for the lovely comment dear! Follow you to! love, selina I like so much yogur blog! Now, i'm following you, Kissss This is totally cute, love the blazer. oh by the way your hair is amazing :) xx nice bag)) Dearest, thank you for your visit on my blog, you're beautiful, and I really like how you dress ... I will follow you kiss Loving that bag! Such a fabulous colour! Thanks for visiting and commenting on BLEURGH BLEURGH & Xisses aw thank you for your comment :) i love your blog too. that striped blazer is totally amazing! you've pretty much gotten summer style down pat. thanks for the comment!! THATGIRLKIP thanks a lot) I like your outfits and now following you Love everything about this look, down to the polish! Gorgeous pictures! Here in Finland we haven't seen the sun in a while, and I'm hoping that we could enjoy warm spring days soon also :)) Loving your blog!! I am a new reader!! Just came across your blog :) I love your blazer! Monique xx misszuman.blogspot.com WOW I love your style, your blog and I am huge fan of your beauty :) I'm gonna follow your blog and of course I invite you to visit mine! :) absolutely beautiful look! i love your blazer and the color of your bag is amazing! gorgeous photos, too! thanks for visiting us and leaving us such wonderful comments! -j, your newest follower :) amazing pictures! your bag is awesome..love it! Oi! A bolsa é realmente linda! Passa lá no blog que tem selinho pra você! ;) Bjkas, Pri. unhasestilo.blogspot.com Great style and pictures!! Great blog! xx Love the melon orange! x Beautiful!!!!!! stop my blog I updated some new stuff. Hey I just started to follow your blog and I must say that you have an amazing style, I love it! :) And that Chloe bag..omg it looks so good! xx -Jenny Those shoes were a pleasant surprise! Love them. And that bag is beyond perfect! These colours are awesome together xox omg. SUPER effortless chic. I love gthe color of your bag. you look gorgeous <3 xx :) you're so pretty and i love this outfit! especially the bag! xx Love ur outfit..and does shoes!! p.s thank u for following i did the same! always flawless :) i just love this outfit/that bag/your hair/your shoes/your fabulous face/this blog so ummm EVERYTHING!!! Great Pics and Outfit!!! love your BAG!!! visit my blog xx thanks for your comment but it's the place where I sell my clothes, check this xx and thanks again ;D I love your way of wearing orange! This will be my way too - with accessories! (I'm a winter - so no SS oranges near the face for me!)! I also like the shoot at the beach. In Chicago - had snow yesterday...wishing for warmer weather! Thanks for sharing your sun! -Lulu love this outfit!! and love the bag:) thanks for the comment and being so sweet. i adore this outfit. that bag! ungnf and your nail color.asfjasidja is all i can say :) Perfect, perfect, perfect! hugs and kisses by Mani. The bag has a beautiful color, love orange for spring, I am following! Beautiful! I really like your blazer X You are definitely one person that has made my day. I tell you why - your fabulousness has just elevated my moods and I thank you for that. Can you tell me what kind of nailpolish are you wearing ??? I loved it !! Kisses Lamia Thank you so much for your sweet comment, it means the world! and of course I have time to visit your blog, which by the way is fantastic! Your outfit is perfection wonderful outfit, I love your style! xoxo I want your bag!!!It's amazing!!!And its colour is....perfect!!!The pictures always beautiful! Love your style! Beautiful outfit :) fashionatemybrains.blogspot.com Beautiful in every way. You, your outfit, the light the location, the shots, everything. Xxxx You are so classy and gorgeous! This outfit looks perfect on you and the photos are amazing. xo Rachel I adore this outfit, I have been eyeing off this Chloe bag for ages! Your blog is amazing, I am your latest follower. X You have gorgeous style, I think I just spent forever browsing through your past posts. SO glad I found you!! I agree about the color orange, fun fun fun and if I had an extra stash of money I would spend it on that blazer in a second! LOVE it! Have a great day! xoxo Love this outfit! That color of that bag is amazing! Love your outfit! Especially your blazer! Style in the City Great look, though I'm not sold on the jeans... In which city is this? Just came across your blog!! you look absolutely gorgeous! love this outfit! x the sydney girl Absolutely love this outfit!!! goes perfectly well with the backdrop!!! ADORE!! where did you get your flowy top?!! of course i have time to look at your blog! and OMG i am glad i did! You are gorgeous and have great style. The whole outfit makes me exited for summer and you are hitting all the great trends (including color). Hope your well :) XOXO marissaofthesea Hi Anne! This post was magnificent! That flawless production! Inspired me! I put the second picture in my favorites folder! You are beautiful! Really! big kiss ~.~ Flavia Cruz Thank you so much ! x are you kidding me!? This is fabulous! the shoes and bag UGH! Wonderful. Muah! You are absolutely pretty! I love your blazer <3 Perfect outfit! I like the unique look of your heeled oxfords as well, they're very summer. Thanks for visitng my blog :) Hello Annabelle, I love your outfit and great color bag fantastic. Kiss. You are perfect! ♥ Your photos are great!! :) This blog is perfect!! :) wow what a look, you are simple gorgeous. and what an outfit. so casual, so simple and so stunning. it is so hard to look this beautiful with a casual outfit, but lady, you have nailed it. love the jacket with the jeans. the blouse looks perfect with it, so soft and precious. of course i love the it bag, especially because i haven't seen it in this color. the white boots are the highlight, they look bold enough, but the white is so perfect for spring. love that delicate necklace, looks ver Vuitton. but the best part, the combination of the casual tee and the blouse, simple divine. i am an instant follower... Gorgeous combination. Love the color of the bag. Have a nice day sweetie! Love Despite color Nice photos, I love your outfit! :) beautiful look! Love your shoessss!! xxx follow you :** Follow me back? i love the bag! Very pretty once again!!! Love the blazer and the purse! Your pictures are always so fresh! XoXO Plami Lovely bag, lovely blog! kisses xxx Love your pictures.. Makes me wanna swoon! I really want your bag! xxx Another perfect outfit! I'm having a giveaway on my blog for an amethyst necklace, be sure to check it out! x Love your jeans and bag! I took a look at your blog... very nice! I'll follow you! ♥ ♥ ♥ what you are wearing!! --kisses Love the orange bag! Oh I used to live right there, kinda miss it! I am happy the weather is warm and making you smile! Hugs & kisses from Rio!

Autumn Pasquale Allegedly Strangled By Teens The brothers, ages 15 and 17, are charged with first-degree murder. Teenage." Jimmy Drake 7:24 pm on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 For a Bicycle !?!? Lord, please let them do time in an adult prison. God bless their Mother who IS a super lady! Lena Smyth 7:12 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 One problem..Blame teachers, parents, society..Give their names and never expunge their record...They are old enougb to know exactly what they were doing..Bad seeds.. Mike 7:26 pm on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 These two should never see the light of day except from a cell. This young lady will never EVER see the light of day again. The parents will live in pain and agony the rest of their lives as will any brothers and sisters if she has any. Eventually the cell population will take care of them. lisa lonergan 8:10 pm on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 I totally agree with you Mike. So sad. What monsters. RdgwdGRock 10:55 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 the hardcore prison inmates are anxiously waiting for their new "girlfriends". Ally 8:06 pm on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 That's awful. So sorry for the family. Give those little imbeciles the hot needle. lucy 8:39 pm on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 Disgusting! May they rot in Hell!! As a Mom of 2 girls...lord help me should I ever come across pure evil as this.. XJS 8:45 pm on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 This was such a senseless crime. There are no words. Elizabeth Cox 9:02 pm on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 i am sad, sick, angry and a whole host of things over this story- Angelwings 9:04 pm on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 The most saddening tragedy. My prayers and love to Autumn's family and friends. As a mom, I can not imagine how they are coping. Autumn looked liked any little girl in any town. A girl with a smile and a spirit of innocence. A sweet beautiful girl who lost her life for a bicycle. SENSELESS. My heart bleeds tears for the mom of those boys who had the grace and presence of faith to stand tall in what must have been the darkest horror. May we all keep her in our prayers too. And those boys, well there is nothing that can be said other than may they never close or open their eyes without suffering the pain they inflicted on Autumn, her family and their mom. Donna 9:51 pm on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 Angelwings, beautifully worded, for such a tragic, ugly situation. Both sets of families are in such horrific pain, I can't even imagine. One is losing a beautiful young lady and one is losing TWO children. This is one crazy world we are living in. * 9:14 pm on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 EXECUTE THEM!! Joanne Chack 9:15 pm on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 I have been praying for a good outcome. I am so sorry and saddened by this tragic news. May your community, the family and friends of Autumn be comforted. All of New Jersey feels your pain and loss. Lisa Typrowicz 9:33 pm on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 Such a sad ending to an already horrific story. May Autumn Rest in Peace. Wisdom 9:42 pm on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 I'll gladly volunteer to execute them. Tara 5:09 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 This is such a sensitive situation. Our first thought is to kill those teens. I get it... It's mine too. But there is another family also losing 2 children with that thought process. This is beyond tragic. No happy ending. Autumns parents will live in Hell for the rest of their lives. The teens mother has also been sentenced to a life term. Really no way of appeasing everyone . Thoughts and many prayers Stan 10:36 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Tara Not sure of your thought process (which really bothers me) but as a parent of a 10 year old daughter I have no sympathy for those boys. Autumn is NEVER coming back - her life was snuffed out by 2 thugs! This was a SENSELESS crime over a bike. Those boys made their decision and knew exactly what they were doing when they lured her into their home. Their mother has to deal with that. I hope they are tried as adults because they don't deserve to walk the streets again. I couldn't (nor wouldn't) want to imagine what Autumn's parents are going through right now. hani 7:53 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 These two boys(animals) need to be tried as adult. Unfortunetly these kids will never know what damage they have done to two families and to a community. Maybe 30 years in prison will help. My heart breaks for the family of Autumn. What a beautiful, sweet, little angel. May she rest in peace. Jimmy Drake 8:00 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 for a bicycle............ jackie miller 8:13 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 no words... just no words... Bby 8:44 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 My prayers to the family. Those savages should rot in jail!! Michael 8:44 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Tara, you have got to be kidding.... something is wrong in that house if 2 brothers can kill a little girl no matter what she is doing. Like a disease or pest in your home you will do whatever it takes to destroy it, kill these bastards, they are a disease in our society. A 52 year old father is dead today for no reason because they let out a lunatic from prison that was supposedly rehabilitated, this happens thousands and thousands of times,These people can't be fixed, they are wired wrong. We all are living in hell because of these left minded moron's that find every way possible to make our society and the human race less safe, but if grandma needs surgery...nahh you lived long enough. Destroy those in the middle east that would kill us and their own people instead of playing police officer, execute those that would kill another human without good cause, imprison those that can't follow our laws as a free society, help those that have contributed to our society in a positive way, and send all the lefties to europe to fight over whatever scrap of money there is left over there and make sure it airs prime time so we can watch. Everyone is sick and tired of having to lock up their children out of fear, wake up every morning in fear they might lose their job, go to bed every night in fear the government will take away everything they worked for. Enough fear people, it's time to get back control of our country and a civil society. (0) 9:40 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 stop trying to turn everything into a political issues troll. and dont forget its the right that fights for automatic weapons to be legal which are responsible for mass killings. prayer go out to this poor family- lets try not to turn the message board into some stupid political debate and show some respect for this poor girl Fred Garvin 9:06 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Why don't they identify the 17 yr. old? I believe they are members of the opposite race! d 9:44 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 NJ101.5 identified them as Dante and Justin Robinson - you can read the news story on their website Pete Mock 11:54 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Opposite race? What the hell is that? Can't bring youself to say "black"? Whether you say it or not your hatred is still apparent Fred. Michael 1:39 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Pete I am not sure what Fred may have meant, but we also have to consider he may not feel comfortable saying black or African American, or dark complexion, I have many black friends who tell me that "black" upsets some people, "African American" upset some who don't associate their past to Africa, and others who feel that people don't run around saying "dark complexion"or "light complexion" "so why not just call me black". In a country whos own government has pitted it's citizens against eachother, we no longer feel comfortable talking to someone or about someone who may be different in other ways, wether it be race, religion, political point of view, or financial status. I will give Fred the benefit of the doubt and hope he just felt uncomfortable saying something he thought might offend.. Michael 1:50 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Funny how Oswold lived in Russia, killed Kennedy in retaliation for the ongoings in Cuba, the president of Russia claims they will tear us apart from within, and since then the Democratic party has never been the same, but we are off topic, just read your history and you will see how we are all methodically being silenced. The left use character assassination to silence, it is very effective and hard to defend. Rona 2:04 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 They look like trouble. precious pisces 8:38 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 The reason the 17yr old is not being identified is because he is a minor!!!!Race has nothing to do with it. Laura 9:10 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 This is one of the problems with kids these days. They have this sense of self-entitlement. If they want something that take it - no matter what. Gimme gimme. There are so few kids that will actually work for what they want. These two brothers should be tried as adults. I hope they rot in jail! Joe Hillsboro 9:14 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Savages. Bring back public hangings. Donna Colucci 11:37 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 I certainly don't know if I believe in public hangings, however, I do think that years gone by they handled their punishments very much different and perhaps much more effective. While visiting Williamsburg we were told that first offense petty criminals were put to public humiliation, (love that) second offense they had their earlobes nailed to the post, and the third was death. Sounds like a plan to me. Honestly I would hope they learned after the public humiliation...but I do vote for that to be brought back again. Unfortunately kids, and criminals today, I believe have no fear. They fear no God or fear of consequences. Tie them up to a pole with a sign that speaks their crime...and let the public take care of him. precious pisces 8:43 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Really!!!! your talking about two kids, that probably made a huge mistake that they can't take back. My heart goes out to all the families in this situation. If it were your children i'm sure you wouldn't refer to them as animals, savages or scum. Grow up and be adults. It's a L for all involved. Prentiss Gray 9:15 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Sounds like a lynch mob. How would killing two teenagers make this horrendous situation any better? I, for one, would like to know a lot more about how this came to happen. This poor girl, her family and the two boys and their family deserve a much more through investigation of the circumstances. There is no quick or simple solution here. Me 9:32 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 The difference between sentencing them to death and letting them live is rehabilitation. Do you honestly think they could ever contribute to society after this? So if they get 50 years in prison, the question is, should tax payers have to pay for their food, lodging, security, etc.? Honestly, I would rather see these kids, and probably the parents of these kids, rot. precious pisces 8:47 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Finally someone speaking with sense! Lorraine 9:50 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 The two boys have been identified by neighbors etc - their names are all over the internet. They are Dante and Jutsin Robinson. They are two black boys. While I do not believe, based on the news reports, this had anyting to do with race, I would just like to point out that if the tables were turned and the victim was black, there would be marching in the streets.The fact is this is a horrible situation and there is more than one vicitm here. Autumn, her family and friends and the family and friends of the alleged murderers. While I believe that everyone is responsible for their actions I have to ask, what went so very wrong in the lives of these boys that would make them capable of such a horrible crime? Me 10:13 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Where's Rev. Al Sharpton??? He should be in that town, having rallies, etc! HobokenTownie 10:18 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Lorraine - you are absolutely right. If the victim was black and the two boys were white Rev. All, Rev. Jessee and even Obama would be marching in the streets. They all spoke up with Trevon Martin. However, since white people do not contribute to their B.S. church groups they could care less..... I wounder if Obama will comment on this, probably not... BellairBerdan 11:40 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Ugh, you don't believe it had anything to do with race but you just want to inject it into the narrative anyway Pete Mock 12:02 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 "I would just like to point out that if the tables were turned and the victim was black, there would be marching in the streets." But since they're not turned Lorraine we instead get your racially tinged comments to help the situation? If, as you say, it had nothing to do with race, then why bring race into it? 12345678 12:14 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Very true. Baba O'Riley 12:29 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 To Lorraine: Right on! My wife said the exact same thing this a.m. at breakfast! In addition, I was in Teaneck, NJ the night of the march and riot during the Spath / Pannel shooting inbcident. I am sure that the alleged murderers are both honor students, star athletes, go to church every week and are community minded. Do you think that this could have been a gang inititation? Keep up the realistic writings! HobokenTownie 12:42 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 BellairBerdan - how do you know race had nothing to do with it? I would love to know your sources. Rev. Al and Rev. Jesse run to the streets whenever they see a fundraising chance....need you be reminded of Tawana Brawley. Tee Smyth 1:04 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Here is the thing: Rev Al and Jackson go where they are asked. So, if mom wants them there, call them. And what does the Pannell shooting have to do with this? I was friends with Phil. Struggling to see the relevance. BellairBerdan 1:52 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Hoboken Townie, I do not know it did as you do not know it didn't, However I was replying to Lorraines comment "They are two black boys. While I do not believe, based on the news reports, this had anyting to do with race, I would just like to point out that if the tables were turned and the victim was black, there would be marching in the streets". Is that clear for you now, Hoboken Townie? And are you really bringing up something from 25 years ago as relevant to today? HobokenTownie 2:27 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Tee Smyth - Wrong - Rev. Al and Rev. Jesse go where there can get donations for their storefront churches. If there are no donations to Rev. Al - no appearance. BellairBerdan - yes - Rev. Al caused and incited racial tension in the city. If the boys were white every storefront pastor and church bus would be heading to sought jersey to protest..... I bet these two punks already had records. BellairBerdan 3:07 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Hoboken Townie it is useless to speak with racists like you. Enjoy your hate. HobokenTownie 4:17 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 BellairBerdan - not a racist, just a realist. Found one of your dumb quotes -. I suspect we know where you stand on your issues. Reverend Wright is a racist similar to you. BellairBerdan 4:45 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Correction. You're a stalking racist. precious pisces 8:48 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Well said Lorraine. Tee Smyth 9:49 am on Thursday, October 25, 2012 @ Hoboken: Are you a member of the Action Network or the Rainbow Coalition? If not, hush. Me thinks I know more on this subject than you. Fin. Moist Cake 10:19 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 3 lives gone all for a bicycle, poor girl murdered brutally, you have to ask what we as a society value in life, clearly possessions and money rule this land. And even more sickening are those who believe in death for a death, executions etc., you are no better then the Taliban, you are the same kind of scum and animal as those who kill initially, murder for murder is still murder. The two boys need to pay for the crime committed, but killing them brings justice? Go to Afghanistan you belong there. Danny L 10:34 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 MoistCake, you are the single voice of rationality here. I completely agree. WaterGoddess1106 10:30 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 I send my condolences to the family of this child and may she rest in peace. This was a completely senseless act. Very sad. The two boys do need to pay for the crime but to kill them - no- Alice Deward 10:39 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 If they can kill a little girl at ages 15 and 17, what the hell will they be doing at age 30? I hate to say it, but they need to be executed. Some things you cannot fix. Michael 10:51 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 moist cake.. (obviously another lefty), the Taliban are killing innocent people, just like you and your kind. See how confused those on the left are? that is why you should be one of the first shipped off to europe... to enjoy the fruits of your labor(and misguided votes). * 11:08 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Moist must be afraid of what will be of him, when he gets caught! MG 11:12 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Damage goods- send them alway for life. * 11:13 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Well said Michael, on both posts mimi 11:23 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Thank God the killers mother did the right thing otherwise the parents in this town would still be terrified. I can't believe how the town is able to celebrate Autumns life and not want to lynch the killers. If anybody ever touched my daughter they'd better pray the police would get to them first. I've always felt the only one to go to jail for is your child. For a ****ing bike. Hang them, this way they know what it felt like. precious pisces 8:54 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 ok tough guy!!! M. Justicel 11:29 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Nice job Mike! Right on the money. To all who think someone who murders can be rehabilitated? You must be insane yourself. They can't even understand the simplicity of right and wrong. If they didn't get it before they murdered, they never will! Put them in jail on the taxpayers dime, wasting oxygen, working out, watching television all day. That's rehabilitation in prison. It's another justice system failure. Just look at the repeat offender statistics. Like Mike said, too many convicted murderers still living and not executed. To (0) and moist cake, this isn't a political, race, or the most ridiculous comparison Taliban issue! These are children who killed for a bicycle. They need to be punished as adults is the most harsh of ways. Problem with New Jersey is the death penalty doesn't exist. These two need to ride the lightening. No such thing as rehab for a murderer! Comparing someone who believes in the death penalty to the Taliban is ludicrous! (0) 11:38 am on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 i never said how i believe these boys should be punished or that i was against the death penalty. m. justice- read what i have wrote, my first statement was just saying michael shouldnt turn this into a political issue. i just think its disgusting when people (dem or reps) take tragic events like this and try use it to promote their political views like michael did. you need to work on your reading comprehension M. Justicel 1:28 am on Thursday, October 25, 2012 (0) if I need to work on my reading comprehension then you do as well. I did not say you were against the death penalty or punishment for these two juveniles. You answered extremely childish with calling Michael a Troll. That's his opinion like you have yours. Fueling the political rhetoric doesn't help the situation. I agree with you about using politics in this situation, it has no business. Lastly, insulting my intelligence by pointing out my inability to understand what I'm reading is absurd! Before you point out individual discrepancies, look at your own. Not one capital letter in any sentence and terrible punctuation. Unless your perfect, don't chastise others! Nancy 12:01 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 I am relieved for Autumn's family that the houdlums' mother had the sense to turn them in; But let us not forget she raised them. Maybe she couldn't stand them anymore either. I hope both she and Autumn's family get some peace; although I don't see how. Lack of parent responsibility has gotten out of hand. No one wants to put work into raising their children. WaterGoddess1106 12:08 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 And to (o) Thank you- This is not the time or place to air The Race Card people. There is a child who was murdered. This is the tradgedy. Her parents are suffering . All of you closet bigots let it go. Justice for this child will be served and it should be. Stop spewing your hatred. You are not only showing your ignorance but you are perpetuating more hatred. Stop sowing the bad seeds of blame against a whole race. The way some of you speak you sound ................................. HobokenTownie 12:44 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 I am sure you feel the same way whenever two white kids kill a black girl.... Stop hiding behind the race card.... Michael 12:10 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 (0) the left always try to forget their record "and dont forget its the right that fights for automatic weapons to be legal which are responsible for mass killings." sounds like a political debate to me... I guess you could have just said, this is not the place for politics, but I would have answered the same way... yes it is, this is the perfect place... to stand up for this poor little girl and remember that our failings in our politics and our laws may have contributed to her losing her life, this is the perfect place for us to speak for those whom can no longer, thanks to a percentage of people who's out of wack moral compass leads to more and more children like Autumn being hurt, abused and murdered, this is the perfect place for Autumn to let us know this will no longer be tolerated and that her voice may be silenced but she will be heard. This is the perfect place for you, me and all the rest of us to realize we failed this little girl and many like her and it will not be tolerated, we are not going to allow the young and the innocent to be wiped out, while we protect and coddle the scum and the entitled. They felt they had a right to her bike, they felt they had the right to take her life, It's my right to help make laws that will take their life when they feel so entitled to take anothers. And damn it, if it has to start right here... right at this spot... thats what I'm going to do, and those whom know I'm right know exactly what we have to do. (0) 1:30 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 my comment about he right being pro automatic guns was just to show that fingers can be pointed at both sides after tragedies- and i dont think any side should do it. and no this is not the place for politics. it is not the "left" or "right" fault, the only 2 responsible are the sick individuals who commited the crime. you really think a death penalty is going to stop these tragedies from happening. people who do these disgusting things are sick in the head (even more severely than you) they can not rationalize penalties for their behavior. even if theres a death penalty thet will still do as they please. please stop calling me a left, i am not on the "left" or "right" and the people who are too far on one side is the problem in this country. out of respect for this young girl and her family and will not continue this discussion. Michael 2:13 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 (0) Thats why it makes even less sense to put them in prison and try to fix them. Instead of giving them a chance to kill multiple times, we fix it right away. Thank you for proving my case. (0) 2:39 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 i never said i am against the death penalty. im saying the fear of the death penalty wont make sick people stop comminting crimes Michael 4:46 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 I say lets try it and prove me wrong. Michael 12:19 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 as usual the "anti racist"(usually the most racist), has to show its ugly head to try to scare everyone off. Wont work this time HeadUnderwaterGoddess1106, no racism here, just facts. murderers should be removed from society forever, so go back to swimming with the mermaids and let the adults talk. Michael 12:22 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 That van running up and down NJ trying to lure children would park pretty damn quick if they knew that if we catch them they won't have an opportunity to enjoy 3 squares and cable tv. WaterGoddess1106 1:09 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 I stand by my comment. All have every right to voice their thoughts just as I voiced mine....stay on topic, Michael Put downs are not the way to go Michael 1:41 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Calling people a racist is not a put down? We have another lefty in the house running in circles everyone..."which way do we go boss?.. which way do we go?" duh da huh. WaterGoddess1106 1:51 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 To Hoboken Townie: Comments are just that-comments- sometimes it's dialog which is also intresting but all too often egos or I'm right and you or others are wrong seem to get in the way of sharing ideas. That's one reason I don't comment on these sites much. There just isn't exchange of opinions or ideas and sometimes but not too often it turns into put downs and you are wrong. Well, suprise , surpise this is the real world where people are different and suprisingly that's what makes the world a great place. (0) 2:09 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 ." HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. thanks michael, long day at the office i needed a good laugh. or should i call you glenn beck. that was almost as funny as Trumps "breaking news" about obama today. man you extremist crack me up Michael 2:36 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 (0) so you don't find it odd that an outside identity will be able to tax us? that our debt is so large vs other countries that any number of countries especially China could demand payment of our debt and effectively cripple us without raising a gun? you don't find it odd that europe is begging germany to save the euro? that russia and china are demanding that the dollar be replaced? whew boy you lefties really do keep your heads in the sand. Russian Prof. Panarin predicted the collapse of America's financial might, 15 years ago and everyone laughed, funny how no one is lauging now and interview him on a regular basis wanting to know where he got his data from, of course he can't tell anyone because he even admits the data came from the Kremlin, but maybe take a little time off from drinking beer, watching msnbc and praying to Obama, and read up a little on what is going on around you. (0) 2:41 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 hahahahaha i dont like obama. never voted for him never willl. you, your tin foil hat, and glenn beck survival kit should get out of the US before its too late ! Michael 4:19 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Glenn Beck has no clue what he is talking about. I don't subscribe to that non-sense I read the language of the laws and policies coming out of our administrations for the last 20 years and know we are on the road to ruin. This election will determine the fate of America, and it won't be too long after January 1st that you will know if America made the right choice, It will be a long road back up the hill or a short hop into the fire. Martha 2:11 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 May Autumn rest in peace and my deepest sympathy to her parents, her family, and friends. I applaud the courageous act of the mother of those murderers who turned them in to authorities. She must be going through a terrible heartache as well! Her boys have not obviously followed her example in life. So, please let's stop with "the woe is me" environmental lifestyle justification excuse for these 2 boys, or, the " we need to examine what happened to the 2 boys to have made them commit such a horrific crime." Too much psychoanalysis in society today and not enough ownership/responsibility for a person's/child's actions. These two boys are responsible for their own actions and must pay. It's as simple as that. I would bet that the 15 year old will say the 17 year old did it and vice-versa and that their attorneys would create reasonable doubt to warrant them serving hardly any time at all. We need to hear & know the truth, but unfortunately, it does not always work in today's society. I truly hope that in this case, justice will be served to Autumn and to the respective families. Nose Wayne 2:32 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 RIP Autumn. Hope those two boys spend the rest of their life in solitary confinement so they never see the light of day that they took away from that little girl. Bob 2:51 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Murder is murder , try these scumbags as adults and let them rot , don't even give them the death penalty that's getting off easy kittye 2:52 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 The reference to boys' race is ignorant. Just pray for the little girl and her family. 6776mt 3:02 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 This was not a racial black/white crime... This has nothing to do with color... This was a innocent little girl being murdered by two savages! I don't believe in the death penalty nor do I believe in rehabbing people like this. I think that the US government should take these 2 criminals..and most criminals and send them to a third world country. The USA can give them $50,000. And the leaders of this third world country will put them to work! Yes WORK! Let them build water ways and roads and HELP people and do good for once in their lives. And let them work for their food and water! Sir 3:20 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Not a logical solution. Let's put them to work here, along with the other 47 million people on food stamps Michael 4:46 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 They don't deserve the freedom to work amongst us. Hang Em High. Michael 3:32 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 give them money? export our garbage? yeah real good for the progress of society. 6776mt 11:55 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Progress of society?? They are healthy, young, strong men ...put them to work... Real work! The USA will have too many employee benefits if we put them to work here! 20 minute break after every 3 hours of work...free health care. Etc.... Rosario Dawson's Creek 3:39 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 No one here knows anything about whether there was a racial component here. No one. Perhaps there was. Perhaps there wasn't. One thing is for sure, the race of the alleged perpetrators does not seem to be being widely reported. Michael 4:17 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 There were a few that tried to inject that some of us were racist but clearly it was just to distract from what these 2 did, the next play in the handbook is to claim they were framed, to somehow try to extend the race claim although there was none, and next will be the bungling of the police to not have blah, blah, blah, 4th will be that the girl did something to provoke the attack, 5th will be juvenile court, 6th will be rehabilitation, 7th will be early release, 8th step will be their names hitting the Star Ledger 8/11/2015 because the system failed to help them so they blah blah blah, same story line over and over again, just like the war on drugs, the war on poverty, the war on the middle class. The mind of the left is left for a reason,,, because it ain't right. TCG 4:45 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Only in a place as removed from reality as Chatham, could a post about the tragic murder of an innocent child desecend into insutls about race...and the only thing more important than life itself...money. doodles 5:02 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Dont give them jail time they will have 3 meals aday recreation...Jersey needs to get tougher on slayings like this...hell up to me id give them both lethal injection ..jail too good for them they should suffer they took that lil gurls life. Makes me wonder what kind of up bringing they head i blame the parents also.Hope its harsh what ever they get.Why not take their life? Why should they get away with murder? Children should be tried as Adults if they do such a horrible crime. Shakes head makes me sick what the lil bastards have done. precious pisces 9:01 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 A mind is a terrible thing to waste!! You should have stayed in school. doodles 5:12 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 btw just saw their pics they look like thugs probalbly on crack hope they drug test them .I feel bad for autumn and her family. kittye 5:19 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Can we let this poor girl RIP? These inflammatory remarks cannot make her family feel better. Stacie Bohr 6:32 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 My initial take when hearing the story was the obvious...brutal, horrific, why...beasts killing a fawn. I also thought and stated that I gave the boys mother credit for turning her boys in. After a couple of days of reading further updates, I still give their mother credit for her actions. But I would be curious, upon investigation, hearing what kind of home they came from...kids don't simply turn into cold blooded, calculating killers overnight. I (and I'm sure Autumn's parents could really care either) whether they were black, white or plaid. I'm unsure of how that is relevant. An innocent little girl is gone at the hands of very young monsters. FourScore 8:53 am on Thursday, October 25, 2012 Michael, I fail to see how this is a political issue. Please tell me what exact laws you feel should have been in place that would have protected this girl. Jimmy Drake 7:16 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 wow. I think we have another problem here in addition to the unfathomable crime that was committed on this poor innocent angel. I think the perps should do life in solitary, lose their minds in about 5 years and just wallow in their cells looking at the wonderful world of a blank wall. Losing their life is too easy. The other problem I see, is wonderful Americans who are sick and tired of having to be politically correct, sick and tired of being accused of racism where a minority is involved and sick and tired of having to be careful of what they say because they might offend someone. This is still America (last time I looked). and a bum is still a bum. That homeless crap went out in my lingo years ago. A bad criminal is a bad criminal - race has nothing to do with it. Let us pray for the FAMILIES of the perps and the victims....and relish in the fact, that they were caught and justice will be done. Ridgewooder 10:05 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 Lock them up. FOREVER. roger 11:24 pm on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 two bottom feeders of life, good luck with that charge hope u guys like it in the @$& M. Justicel 1:34 am on Thursday, October 25, 2012 Amen Roger Stacie Bohr 3:35 am on Thursday, October 25, 2012 Michael, I actually deleted my comment against yours just after I submitted it. I realized what you were saying after I retread it. My apologies. Jerome Thompson 8:34 am on Thursday, October 25, 2012 louis vuitton purse Eric 9:16 am on Thursday, October 25, 2012 If you're turning this tragedy into an opportunity to voice your political views you need a good slap in the mouth and a lesson in manners. Shut up and go troll the political blogs. This poor girl is dead, have some respect and a little class. Stacie Bohr 9:34 am on Thursday, October 25, 2012 Really!!! This isn't the first time this week I've seen this. I was confused at first and thought it was a mistake. Stacie Bohr 9:36 am on Thursday, October 25, 2012 Pardon...I'm talking about the Louis Vuitton ads. Russ, Jason...huh? kittye 10:17 am on Thursday, October 25, 2012 Thanks, Eric. Well said. Joe Pinero 12:26 pm on Thursday, October 25, 2012 May her soul rest in peace. Ellejay 12:36 pm on Thursday, October 25, 2012 Wow really? A precious child's life has been taken too soon and you idiots harp on race? One has to wonder, if children with authority figures like you to look to for guidance even have a fair chance of becoming productive and sane members of society. With that said, no wonder an unfortunate few grow up to become monsters if all they know is hate. Rather it be Autumn Pasquale or Treyvon Martin, both are children who died violently and that should be the discussion!!! The main concern should be how can we protect our children, not mommy and daddy's generalizations of a whole group of people. My prayers go out to Autumn and her family. Baba O'Riley 2:58 pm on Thursday, October 25, 2012 To Tee Smith: Here is what the Spath / Pannell case has to do with Autumn and her alleged killers. If two white youths had killed a young black girl; certain (community and political) leaders would be all over the media and in Clayton letting everyone know that justice is needed and that the girl was targeted (because of her color). Go back to that night in Teaneck: I was driving past the church when the Memorial service was letting out and you could see anger in the eyes of those leaving (the church). Shortly thereafter the riot started; funny thing is that we do not see riots or politicians grandstanding when the stituation is reversed (like here). PS: we know that Philip Pannell had a criminal record, was a member of a (drug) gang, was carrying a weapon and attempted to shoot at the police (prior to him being shot). Tee Smyth 3:18 pm on Thursday, October 25, 2012 Baba. You are so incorrect on multiple levels; PARTICULARLY with the facts, that it tells me that this is not even worthy of further engagement. I was there that night and many other nights and days and months that followed. I remember everything like it happened yesterday, and could go back to journals written during that time to refresh my recollection if need-be. I will simply advise that you're incorrect. As for Sharpton and Jackson: I've said above that they come when called. Has the mom requested their presence? Good day. Baba O'Riley 4:35 pm on Thursday, October 25, 2012 Tee, please let me know how I am wrong. I know I am not wrong about the background of Philip Pannell and his actions that evening. Some further questions: Why did the storeowners on Teaneck Road had to have their store windows smashed? Did they do anything wrong? Same applies to the cars that were vandalized. As I said before, I was in Teaneck that night and following nights as a member of the New Jersey Army National Guard. As has been stated, what would be the case if two white youths had killed an innocent girl of the opposite race? You tell me. Both cases are tragedies for all of the families involved as well as their respective communities. Tee Smyth 4:49 pm on Thursday, October 25, 2012 Here you go. No one said anything about store owners, etc. What a flying leap! Again. Your mind is made up already, and it's not my job to change it for you b/c I don't care enough about you (sorry if that's harsh) to do so. You've also posted some inconsistencies in your "story." I'm done here. Have a good day. FourScore 4:22 pm on Thursday, October 25, 2012 If people disapprove so much of Sharpton/Jackson playing the race card with white on back crimes, then why do the same with this case??? Baba O'Riley 4:36 pm on Thursday, October 25, 2012 I would like to know why they are silent in this case. I would like to know why they are not out for justice for poor Autumn and her family. I would like to know how they are going to heal the community. Christina Aquino 2:53 pm on Friday, October 26, 2012 Has anyone determined whether these kids had a father living with them? Vicki 5:55 pm on Saturday, October 27, 2012 @Christina parents are divorced. I think it said he lives in Glassboro... sanshid 4:38 ghgfhfg 2:28, FG 2:10 po[ji-9[i 3:03 mjmjr 10:08 am on Monday, January 21, 2013 JUST HANG THEM

From a reader: Could a married man be ordained to the permanent diaconate using the extraordinary form? Of course! A bishop can use either Use to ordain. And a deacon is a deacon is a deacon. From a reader: Could a married man be ordained to the permanent diaconate using the extraordinary form? Of course! A bishop can use either Use to ordain. And a deacon is a deacon is a deacon. A note, I think, should be made here: Summorum Pontificum did not pertain to ordinations; all other sacraments, however, are mentioned. Nevertheless, I suppose a society like the FSSP would have permission to ordain a permanent deacon in the extraordinary form. Any bishop can chose to use the older Pontifical. Ooh Father, your gonna make the SSPX real unhappy [So?] … They even say the Eastern Catholics and Orthodox have this wrong. All clerics, even deacons, have to be celibate… who knew… ;-) BTW I found a link to that article on their Latin Mass explained packet page. I was looking for Altar server training stuff and I came across this in the little note attached to the check box for deacon that said they wont send the material to permenant deacons and they gave a link to this article. It really astonishes me that they have such a problem with married clerics… While I can see no problem with priestly ordinations being carried out in the Extraordinary Form outside the FSSP/ICRSP etc. (because the ordinand will in any case be a deacon), might there not be a problem with a diaconal ordination, given that the older books presume the ordinand to be a subdeacon? Father Z, Is there a translation of the EF Rite of Ordination to the diaconate on-line? I wondered about the position of the SSPX on ordaining married men to the diaconate. Can I say that I am not surprised? Fr. Deacon Daniel You do realize that when your wife dies you may NOT re-marry. I believe the reason that, with very few exceptions, all high orders may not be married is you are esentially marrying the church. You can not have two brides. It would be unfair to your wife/children to spend more time with Church duties. On the other side of the coin it would be unfair to the Church for you to choose issues of your family over the needs of the Church. These are the reasons that I was taught why all high orders must only be for unmarried/widowed men. Even then, if there are children, it can be very difficult for a widowed man to have to choose between the Church and a problem with a child. The few exceptions have traditionally been married Anglican’s and other’s who have vaild orders and wish to enter the Roman Catholic Church and are currently married. I urge everyone interested in the married cleric discussion to read canonist Dr. Edward Peter’s blogpost:. I quote his post below. Go to his site for links and further discussion. “Brian Van Hove, SJ, and Dcn. Rex Pilger are debating in the Homiletic and Pastoral Review whether the obligation of clerical continence (1983 CIC 277) applies to married permanent deacons. Van Hove argues affirmatively, Pilger negatively. My 2005 article on this question has been cited approvingly by Van Hove, but I have not intervened in the HPR discussion because, until recently, my work had not been challenged by either side. Recently, however, Pilger attempted to refute several points that I made or accept concerning.” To the commenter above, do you honestly think that the ordained deacon that you presume to lecture doesn’t already know this? Both the comment and its TONE (note the font) are just a little unnecessary. The disrespect here sometimes is unbelievable. Arent Deacons assumed with the role of subdeacon though? I mean I have never seen a permanent deacon be addressed as during his formation subdeacon, but what I do know is there is a maronite church in St Louis, that has Married Sub Deacons, So I would assume it is there. Granted that is a different rite, but still part of the cahtolic church. Now, I do have a question. If a deacon is a deacon is a deacon, can the deacon perform his office in the Extraordinary form? I only ask because when the extraordinary form was ordinary, The permanent diaconate was somewhat in reclusion, and I have not seen/ known a permanent married deacon that participated in the extraordinary form. Maybe its just the seed isnt there yet, but I am curious. I am 29, and in a few years God willing I can enter formation myself. I am married. I would love to know if I could expect to participate at the altar in both forms though. I wonder who the pioneer will be in this regard?! :) Well, Chances are someone might beat me to it, I have 6 years before i can enter formation, and its atleast a 4 year process right now. (so ordination possibly at 39?) I would think the problem with a permanent deacon doing it, would be he is assigned to a parish, so it would all be dependent on father, if in fact the faculties allow it Matthew, Yes, I am quite aware, thank you very much, of my own obligations towards celibacy should my wife pass away. Dispensations to be remarried have been granted in the Latin Church for widower deacons with young children. This has also happened in certain Eastern Catholic Churches, although never with our married priests. There was a case with the Antiochian Orthodox where a widower priest was granted a “dispensation” (they do not use such terminology) to remarry after his wife died. His name is Father John Allen and he wrote about his experience in the book, “Widower Priest”. The imagery of espousal, while very beautiful, does not present the total picture of the apostolic life. St. Paul’s exhortation to St. Timothy assumes that some of those called to sacerdotal or diaconal ministry have an intimate familiarity with the married state and family life as fathers and husbands and that how they have raised their children is a witness in discerning their worthiness for ordained ministry in the household of faith. The Scriptures and Tradition praise both the married and the celibate states, and the recent magisterium (both conciliar and pontifical) have upheld the legitimate and praiseworthy ministry of married priests and deacons in the East. Quite frankly, I tire of uber-Latinists who seem to treat this question as if it was somehow material to the faith. Celibacy for the Kingdom of God is a discipline and a beautiful and praiseworthy calling “for those who can bear it.” The married state is as well, and both states have an eschatalogical dimension to them and priesthood and diaconate can be exercised well in both. The Church does not have a two-tiered system of clergy – the “high and mighty” celibates and the barely tolerable “married’s.” Both are fruitful in their own way and both states have been approved by the Church. In ICXC, Fr. Deacon Daniel From the Latin Canon 277: “The diocesan bishop is competent to establish more specific norms concerning this matter and to pass judgment in particular cases concerning the observance of this obligation.” A question for Canon Lawyers: Can the bishop thus dispense a cleric who entered the clerical state as a married man from perpetual continence? This is an interesting debate on this canon. I have always had the understanding that the obligation is to be observed 24 hours before rendering liturgical service, as well as during certain periods of fasting. There is also a tradition of continence for the laity prior to receiving Holy Communion and during periods of fasting. I wonder if such a thing is being advocated anywhere! Fr. Deacon Daniel If any bishop can use the older Pontifical, then why is ordination not included in Summorum Pontificum when Confirmation is? Now, I do have a question. If a deacon is a deacon is a deacon, can the deacon perform his office in the Extraordinary form? It has been done – is being done, if that answers your question. The St. Frances de Sales Parish in the archdiocese of Atlanta, served by the FSSP, has an assigned permanent deacon. xathar: Because it didn’t have to be. I think what we should hope/work/pray for is that knowledge of the EF becomes part of the normal liturgical formation of candidates for the permanent diaconate. The more who know, the more who will be able to help their bishop & pastors respond to the requests of the faithful. And I think many will be attracted to it with exposure. Members of EF communities who could assist with training should prayerfully consider contacting their diocesan Director of Deacon Formation. Thanks for the answer to my question. I hope by the time I enter formation and God willing recieve my orders to the permanent diaconate, the question will no longer have to be asked. Now wouldnt that be something, keeping up with the brick by brick thought. At that point we would have a mansion! The following comes from the SSPX’s article in opposition to married deacons. .” Canon 3 of the Council of Nicea is (from newadvent.org): The great Synod has stringently forbidden any bishop, presbyter, deacon, or any one of the clergy whatever, to have a subintroducta dwelling with him, except only a mother, or sister, or aunt, or such persons only as are beyond all suspicion. Ok, from what I can tell, a “subintroducta” is a celibate woman, or perhaps an unrelated woman, not a wife. So the council excluded clergy from living with celibate/unrelated women who were not their mothers, etc. It doesn’t say anything about an absolute prohibition against clergy being married as the SSPX seems to indicate. Is my understanding of the term subintroducta correct? Is the SSPX’s initial bit of evidence completely off the mark, or am I misunderstanding the meaning of the words? Wow. Has the SSPX, then, become a kind of reverse barometer? Anything “they” are for, “we” are against? No, the SSPX is not some sort of reverse barometer? Some things they get right, but it would be insane to trust the statements of a group of people whose fullness of communion with the the Church is questionable when those statements are obviously in opposition to what the Church allows. They’ve claimed something. Is it true or not? They also state in the same.” They, the SSPX by posting this on their website, have declared that married deacons are excommunicated. This has nothing to do with reality. It is nonsense. JM,? Well, All one has to do is read scripture, Paul tells us presbetyrs, bishops, deacons should have only been married once. No where does it say they have to be removed from the wife, the wife is dead, or anything else one could think of. So one can assume the wife very well can “come along” so to speak Granted, that in any rite bishops are celibate, priests in the east can be ordained if they are married , but must be celibate if they are ordained and not married, but if one really wanted a strong ground to stand on, its directly in scripture. Though in that thought its important to recognize why we have a celibate priesthood in the Latin Tradition. I think a permanent deacon, by its very nature of service (If I recall the word means that), would almost be better suited to be married. It gives him a unique perspective on the average faithful, who are married, and that (all due respect to the priests here), that a priest isnt always going to have. Many permanent deacons work with marriage prep and counseling, and so forth. I would think that its pretty obvious why that’s a good thing. Also , I mean no disrespect to the priests who visit here, just pointing it out as an obvious advantage for helping the faithful. I love whatever pastor has been placed in care over me, but I wont hide that I often have stronger personal relationships with the deacons who are installed at the church. Part of that is having someone to talk to, being a married man. I think the church in her wisdom, and care for the faithful sees this, and thus why we have married permanent deacons Michael, ?” This has nothing to do with the question I asked? Is the SSPX’s understanding the of the 3rd Canon of the Council of Nicea correct or not? From what I can tell, it isn’t. They are wrong. But my understanding might be correct or incorrect and I’m hoping that someone who reads this blog might more about the issue. In response to your comment above: In the case of married deacons, the SSPX isn’t exhorting anyone to do more than the Church allows. What they are doing is claiming, by the posting of the article on their website, is that what the Church allows, married deacons, is causing these men who are licitly and validly ordained to the diaconate to be excommunicated. Obviously, they are opposing the Church in the matter and making claims that are false on top of it. There is nothing wrong with doing more than the Church recommends or even advising people to do so. Going to Mass more than once a week is generally going to be a good thing. Fasting more if you are capable can be a good thing. These are both things that SSPX priests would likely recommend, and I support both of those, but their opposition to married deacons is not the same thing. How do we know that any bishop can use the old Pontifical? Has this been decreed anywhere? “How do we know that any bishop can use the old Pontifical? Has this been decreed anywhere?” yes, the through the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum. As such, it is on the pope’s authority, and no other decree needs to be in place for a Bishop to perform it. Its a mass, the faithful can request their sacraments be administered in the extraordinary form. Deacons, and for that much any person recieving the sacrament(so even a priest who say wanted last rites on his death bed), constitutes a “member of the faithful”. Patrick, What you’ve written is not correct. Summorum Pontificum speaks of allowing all sacraments in the older form except for ordination. Additionally, the ability to use the older books (MIssal, Breviary, Ritual) is not extended to the Pontifical in that document. I repeat: Where, if anywhere, has permission been granted to use the older form of the Pontifical for ordination, carte blanche? [Summorum Pontificum speaks primarily about the faculties which priests have, not about what bishops can do. The issue of the Pontifical was settled a long time ago.] Perhaps one of our more scholarly folks could answer it then. I would have assumed it was all encompasing. Especially if there are groups like the FSSP who are using it. To the commenters above: Summorum Pontificum (“SP”) does not need to mention ordination, and in fact, it makes more sense that SP does not include it. The purpose of SP was to allow priests to perform the EF without permission of a bishop when requested by faithful. To include Holy Orders here was unnecessary as Holy Orders always requires a bishop and is not at the bequest of the faithful (unless the faithful are considered the priests/deacons being ordained). Thus, the bishop can choose which form he uses for the mass. If SP had included a mention of this sacrament it wouldn’t have been congruent with the purpose of the rest of the document. JM – I think you’ve got the gist of ‘subintroducta’, at least as I understand it. I did some google searches, and the assorted references I got back seem to support that understanding. N.B. – I didn’t post the links here myself, as some of the most informative were part of “relationship” glossary sites. Some of the content might well be described as base or even vulgar. Thanks YoungCatholicStl . See someone from the midwest helped us out :P YoungCatholicSTL: Then how do you account for its mention of confirmation which is the bishop’s domain, so to speak? Xathar: Yes, here’s how I see it. (Warning: About to split hairs) While I agree that it is “the bishop’s domain,” the sacrament of confirmation is still at the people’s request. And if those people requesting would like the EF, then they are entitled to it under SP. Holy Orders isn’t at the request of the person to be ordained, it is at the request of the bishop. Although, xathar, I do find your point intriguing. Fr. Z – Any thoughts? SP does say that the the usus antiquor was never juridicially abrograted. This is the most important thing to consider when examining if ordinations are allowed with the traditional rubrics. Therefore, since it was never juridicially aborgrated, and a bishop is the custodian of liturgy in his diocese, the bishop may choose to use it for ordinations. SP was particularly meant to free priests to say the TLM should they choose without having to obtain permission from his bishop. The SSPX seems to have a point here, the points they make are almost the same as the late Cardinal Stickler made in his study “The Case for Clerical Celibacy” He said that from apostolic times all clerics were required to keep perpetual abstinence, even though they might be married. The Eastern Church relaxed the discipline (but they still require sexual abstinence before liturgy). So permanent married deacons without anykind of sexual abstience imposed on them is a novelty. SP does NOT say that the entire usus antiquor was never abrogated. Rather, it’s focus is primarily on the Missal. It also gives permission for the old Breviary and Ritual. And then, with respect to the Pontifical, it states, “Ordinaries are given the right to celebrate the Sacrament of Confirmation using the earlier Roman Pontifical, if the good of souls would seem to require it.” This is the only line that concerns the Pontifical. Again, no mention is made of ordination. This is a glaring omission and I’m sure it is not a mistake or oversight. Furthermore, note that the use of the old rite of Confirmation is made at the bishop’s discretion, not at the request of the faithful, as an earlier commenter had stated. In conclusion, I see no provision within SP or any other document for a bishop to use the entirety of the older Pontifical at his own discretion, particularly so with respect to ordinations. Fr. Z, As I noted above, SP does speak of the Pontifical, but only with regard to Confirmation. You state above that “the issue of the Pontifical was solved long ago.” I’m not familiar with this solution. What document/event are you referring to? Wouldn’t it be wonderful to find out the truth of all this, about the deaconate,married or otherwise, N.O. or Gregorian Rite E.R. “TLM” all the speculation and all the opinions. Confusion rein on.

From a reader: I am a lay Catholic and over the month past month I have felt truly home since going to the Mass of the Ages. Please forgive my ignorance but the missal of blessed John XXIII has omitted the prayers at the foot of the altar at certain occasions and the 2nd confiteor before reception of the Eucharist of the faithful. Are these changes though indiscernible harmful to the faith or necessary and part of the organic growth of the Mass? The 1962 Missale Romanum (the Missal of John XXIII) did not omit the prayers at the foot of the altar, except in the normal circumstances (e.g., Good Friday). And there is a curtailed form in the Requiem Mass. However, the 1962MR does not have the 2nd Confiteor before Holy Communion. In many places, I would guess most places, it is done anyway regardless. I don’t think it is harmful to the faithful to omit the 2nd Confiteor. It is not harmful to the faithful to be without the prayers at the foot of the altar. At the same time, consider that these two elements of the older, traditional form of Mass were omitted in the Novus Ordo even though the Second Vatican Council’s document on liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium said that no changes should be made unless it should be for the true good of the faithful. I cannot quite make out how the faithful benefit from the removal of those things. They might not necessarily be harmed, but… how do they benefit? Surely you jest, Father. I don’t think there was any intention to change only what the good of souls demanded. This becomes blatantly obvious when you begin to itemize the changes and ask, “how were these so harmful that it was necessary to remove them?” - the dates (and celebration) of most feast days - the elimination of ember days - the greatest majority of the texts of the Mass - the elimination of minor orders and their roles in the liturgy - the prayers at the foot of the altar And this list could go on for quite a long time. Remember folks, Bugnini was largely responsible for the document Sacrosanctum Concilium itself, and he knew what the bishops needed to read to get signatures — and he knew how far his ambiguous document could be stretched. Re: the second Confiteor A very good priest explained in a class on liturgy a couple of years ago (FSSP), that the second Confiteor was really for the congregation to confess one more time in humility, hoping for the forgiveness of our sins to prepare for Holy Communion. He stressed that we should be saying the Confiteor to ourselves with the altar servers, who are speaking in our name before the “Domine non sum dignus” for the congregation. There is nothing more beautiful, moreover, than the Deacon and Sub-Deacon at a Solemn High Mass, going to either side of the altar, bowing low as the Deacon chants the Confiteor. It is such a beautiful chant. I often find myself chanting it when I’m driving in the car – a little odd maybe – but we can’t confess enough, can we? At our Latin Masses, no matter which one of the four priests come to say the EF, (not a parish, but assigned priests), all four say the second Confiteor. These priests went to St. John Cantius to learn the EF several years ago. Is this ok? As they all do it, I assumed that is what they were taught to do. comes not come-sorry It would be helpful to know WHY there was a second Confiteor in the first place. Until Pius X encouraged more frequent Communion just over a century ago, Communion of the Faithful was less common. When it was done, it would often occur after Mass. This ritual would begin with the recitation of the Confiteor by the server, followed by the priest holding up the Host for the “Ecce Agnus Dei …” much as would be done in the pre-1962 form of the Traditional Mass. It was not considered part of the Mass proper. In fact, you will not find the Communion of the Faithful in the priest’s missal at the altar, even in the 1962 version. And in most comprehensive hand missals until the late 1950s (Dom Gaspar’s Saint Andrew Missal, etc), it is listed as a separate event in an appendix, in addition to its location in the Mass. And so, once the Sacrament was more commonly received, the entire ritual was simply inserted after the Communion of the Priest as the norm. Thus the appearance of the “second Confiteor.” The “second Confiteor” is not in the 1962 Missal, but its continued use is indulged by the Holy See. That it is not officially included, cannot be definitively attributed to any one person, other than perhaps the Holy Father himself, who ultimately approved the change. In all likelihood, it was removed simply because it no longer served its original purpose. On the other hand, a tradition often retains its value after its purpose has faded away. The case could be made either way, without the usual conspiracy theories. At the parish where I am MC, we do not use it, but its use is brought to the attention of servers in training, and they are told what to do and when, in the event that their experience takes them elsewhere. Me, I could go either way with it. I’m curious about our other readers — how many recite the 2nd Confetior quietly to themselves when it is not recited publically?? I must confess that I also say it before receiving Comminion in the Ordinary Form. At my parish’s EF Masses the servers do not say the 2nd confiteor. I do, however, say the confiteor to myself (followed by a few “SHJ, have mercy…”) as I am in line at the communion rail. I find that it is a great way to bring clarity to the situation. I have said it from the time I was Confirmed (1951) along with the alter boys, if the Pope wanted it there I see no right reason to eliminate it. Being a humble theology student still grappling with the complexities of the pre-novus ordo form(s) of the Mass, I may be about to put my foot in my mouth. I would probably guess the second confiteor was originally the equivalent (along with the other prayers around it of the Eastern Communion Prayer said in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. This prayer is a confession of our sins, our unworthiness to receive, and a beseeching of God to heal us. One could say that in the western rite, it has now been lessened to “O Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.” With these thoughts in mind, I wouldn’t say that the loss of the second confiteor is harmful in that it does not diminish the action of the sacrifice and we strive to retain it’s sense with “O Lord, I am not worthy…”. I would say, however, that its loss does not maximize the experience of mercy and gift that should accompany reception of the Eucharist. Acknowledging one’s sinfulness in a dramatic way (like the Eastern Communion Prayer) is a sure way to instill in a person the need for examination of conscience and the reminder that receiving unworthily could lead to judgment or condemnation makes one understand the gravity of the sacrament. Hearing it in a Ruthenian Rite scared the crud out of my mother, born and raised Roman Catholic. So I don’t think it’s loss is harmful. However, I think its addition, or a prayer akin to it (Eastern Communion Prayer), can do great good. Fr., I believe the questioner had in mind the various omissions of the prayers at the Foot that were indeed novel ommissions. You say normal, but what is that? It was not omitted on Palm Sunday, Candlemas, etc until the reform in the 1950′s Anyhow the 2nd or 3rd Confiteor makes perfect sense to me in light of the historical fact that the confiteor at the beginning is not about the people. The priest confesses, then the other sacred ministers confess. These confessions, like the rest of the prayers at the foot, evolved as prayers said to fill in the time of the introit. Only in a roundabout way, via low Mass, is the idea instilled that it is somehow a confession of the congregation. The original purpose was a confession before entering “in sanctum sanctorum” Now especially at a sung or Solemn Mass, the 2nd Confiteor is very significant. The people do not hear the earlier ones and, in fact, can be singing the Introit. But this confiteor is explicitly for them. That it was imported a long time go (before Pius X, before Trent in fact) into the Mass from communion given outside of Mass is also true of the Ecce Agnus Dei (which mimics the Agnus Dei) and the Domine non sum dignus following that (mimicking the priest) The Dominican Rite prior to 1958 did not even have the Ecce Agnus Dei. Very simply the priest receives communion, and has his own Domine non sum dignus, and then proceeds to distribute. So that it was imported in does not mean that its purpose does not make sense, any more than with the Ecce Agnus Dei \\I am a lay Catholic and over the month past month I have felt truly home since going to the Mass of the Ages.\\ And just what are the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and other Eastern Liturgies, to say nothing about the other authorized Western rites, such as the Mozarabic, Bragan, and even Novus Ordo? Chopped liver? There was a time that NONE of these liturgies, including the Tridentine Rite, existed, therefore NONE of them can justly be called “the Mass of the Ages”–unless ALL of them (including the Pauline Mass) are. What Manwithblackhat said about the second (or possibly third) Confiteor is historically true. As far as frequently repeating this prayer on the grounds that “one can never confess enough,” it can be a symptom of spiritual OCD, otherwise known as scrupulosity. Sooner or later we have to get our eyes off ourselves and onto God’s forgiveness. One does wonder how Bugnini got away with all he did, and over and over one asks why Paul VI signed off on the N.O.???? Since the N.O. is the primary Mass I attend accept for a E.F. Mass once a month, an act of Contrition is the prayer one tries to use prior to receiving Our Lord. but food for thought will now start on my own and quietly saying the confiteor to myself. I can think of a reason why it should be omitted: accusations of disobedience. For years the 1962 Missal was fought to be “freed” (as popular parlance spoke of the matter). Now that it is “freed” people are not even following its rubrics. For the sake of consistency of argument, the 2nd confiteor ought not be said. -KJS gloriainexcelisdeo — You reminded me of something I’ve been meaning to ask. Does anyone who is familiar with the FSSP’s custom of having the deacon and subdeacon chant the last (2nd/3rd depending on how you count it) Confiteor before communion at High Mass know how that started? The only time it should be chanted (according to my books) is at a pontifical High Mass. I think it’s noteworthy that Psalm 42 and not the “prayers at the foot of the altar” is what is really in question. This psalm was really a part of the celebrants preparation for Mass and was inserted into the public prayer of the church in the Missal of Trent. The historic liturgies of religious orders (Dominican & Carmelite) do not have this psalm. It was simply the In nomine… Confiteor…kyrie. The Introit is out of place in all of the rites as it ended up right smack in the middle of penitential stuff?! I think “they” tried to fix this. Many orthodox liturgists saw the fault in this. The confiteor before communion is simply out of place too. All the penetential stuff was done at the beginning then we abruptly go back to the confiteor?! All that being said, I wouldn’t say that these things were harmful for anyone. @Fr. Basil, )…. IMHO, it’s not an “either/or” matter – either focusing upon ourselves, or focusing upon God. Instead, it is the Catholic “both/and” – looking at all things realistically – the reality of how sinful we truly are AND how much they truly do offend God infinitely, no matter how “small” they might be – as well as realizing that if we express heartfelt contrition for our sins & aim to make amendment in our lives, God will always extend to us His Mercy and forgiveness. I agree with Fr. Z – taking out the 2nd Confiteor was NOT clearly beneficial for the laity. Pax et benedictiones tibi, per Christum Dominum nostrum, Steve B Plano, TX That’s always been my question with the way the new Mass is celebrated (not necessarily how it appears in the missal itself). There are so many things that are optional that “liturgists” choose not to do it simply because they don’t see the point. There is no consideration for any theological reasons other than it’s optional, so why do it at all? Instead, they just add in things or omit what is not optional, thus making it harmful. I am surprised that others have experienced FSSP priests incorporating this confiteor–at the parish I attended for about two years, I never saw it done. As far as how we benefit from the removal of this confiteor: I don’t know what the benefit necessarily is one way or the other. But, now that it is removed, there is a benefit in simply, obediently doing what’s in the book. Fr. Z: Doing something “for the true good of the faithful” is one reason changes could be made to the liturgy, but I don’t believe it is the only reason. Sacrosanctum Concilium cited other reasons, such as securing the full and active participation of the people (#14), or if something is shown to be an intrusion which does not harmonize with the inner nature of the liturgy (#21), impedes the faithful from understanding the rites with ease (#21), or is not part of an organic growth when the liturgy is seen historically (#23). In addition, in the revision of the rites, SC calls for a careful investigation into structure and meaning of each part of the liturgy, as well as what is learned from experience of the indults of the Holy See. If we were to simply go by what is for the “true good of the faithful” almost anything could be inserted into the liturgy. As a rite that communicates grace from outward signs, and signs which must be clear and simple, the liturgy must not present signs which are not merely emotionally fulfilling. What does this part of the Mass do, or accomplish? Is the rite doing this, or have other goals and desires crept in to this part? Is the introductory rite of the Tridentine Mass also the priest’s preparation, and also his contrition of sin, and also the contrition of the ministers, and also the Kyrie, and also the adoration of the Gloria, plus an entrance antiphon (Introit) stuck in between, plus other prayers of humility while kissing the altar, plus, plus, plus ???? So exactly what is this first part of the Mass supposed to accomplish? And if some of these parts were inserted in the 4th, 5th, or 6th centuries, for what reason, and was it true organic growth. The comment I hear from people in these blogs is “but I feel good when the 2nd confiteor is done. They should never have changed it.” That may sound like a defense of tradition, but it could also be very much a parroting of the liberals’ mindset that we keep things in the liturgy because they feel good. And if that’s the case let’s just ignore the fact that the Missal has dropped the 2nd confiteor, because we don’t have to go along with any change that we don’t agree with. For instance, “The English translation should not be changed, because I feel better with the present translation.” The second paragraph above should state: “If we were to simply go by what is for the “true good of the faithful” almost anything could be inserted into the liturgy, or allowed to remain there unchanged. As a rite that communicates grace from outward signs, and signs which must be clear and simple, the liturgy must not present signs which are merely emotionally fulfilling.” I was trained as an altar server in 1956. At that time, I was told that the server’s Confiteor at the foot of the altar was the server’s confession and that the server’s Confiteor before communion was done as the people’s representative and that it was important to keep this in mind. Therefore, when the Confiteor before communion was eliminated, I was scandalized and lost much sleep over it. Was I no longer fulfilling my mission of representing the people? Now, perhaps what I was taught was the personal theology of the nun who instructed me and had no basis in fact. I didn’t now that then and I don’t know it now. All I know is that without the pre-communion Confiteor, something doesn’t seem right and no matter how much theologising I hear against it, that doesn’t change my feelings. That said, of course, this should not be all about my feelings, and I agree. I’m just saying it was all very hard on a 14-year-old boy who loved the Mass. “As far as frequently repeating this prayer on the grounds that “one can never confess enough,” it can be a symptom of spiritual OCD, otherwise known as scrupulosity. Sooner or later we have to get our eyes off ourselves and onto God’s forgiveness.” There is nothing scrupulous about not being able to confess enough and knowing this. There is everything scrupulous about not really believing it. That is the peculiar pride of the scrupulous conscience. After all, it is precisly the realization of not being able to accuse ourselves enough, I’m speaking about a true realization rooted in humilty, that propels us forward in the hope of God’s Mercy. Without this it is nothing but presumption. A Legitimate Liturgist priest-scholar (who gave a conference on Chant at which I met the most wonderful Fr. Z) holds that the ‘third Confiteor’ is a vestige–as Mr. Man With Black Hat notes above. But there’s a bit more than his explanation. Years ago, in a tradition going back many MORE years, a number of the Faithful would arrive at the early weekday Mass just in time for Communion. They were called “daily Communicants.” (Yes, I’m old enough to remember them, including being able to name several from my home parish..) Don’t ask me how that started, or why. I don’t know. Anyhoo, that ‘third Confiteor’ was there for them, too. Now, few (if any) people are “daily communicants” in that way; most are able to attend the entire Mass. As to B-16 “indulging” the practice: I’d be very interested in seeing documentation of that claim. Finally, it is supremely ironic that a certain Order of priests (based offshore) demands–and I mean DEMANDS–obedience from the laity on issues large and small–yet flagrantly and knowingly DIS-obeys the 1962 Rubrics on this matter. Some things never change. Fr. Sotelo wrote: “The comment I hear from people in these blogs is ‘but I feel good when the 2nd confiteor is done. They should never have changed it.’” That is not what I am seeing from people above. I am reading many comments about the liturgical point of the 3rd/final Confiteor: that is, it is the one for the people receiving communion. Not for the priest (1st Confiteor) and not for the server (2nd Confiteor). So if there is a congregation to receive communion, the final Confiteor is said with the final absolution. If not, then no. Archbishop Bugnini did not give a reason when he hacked off that prayer — he did so without sufficient explanation, so now we have the mess to clean up. As an aside I find it interesting that most traditional Latin Masses that have a priest who will not allow the 3rd/final Confiteor still recite the Prayers After Low Mass. If you’re going to do one, do both — they were each deleted in the same Bugnini package. The latter, however, features the congregation making vocal responses, my guess as to why more liberally-minded TLM priests are apt to keep them while scrapping the final Confiteor. When my family attended the Indult Mass in my youth, the priest followed the rubrics for the 1962 missal so there was no 3rd Confiteor. If the Confiteor before Communion was for the people (as some have stated), it makes sense that it would be omitted at some point during the liturgical renewal of the 20th century. No matter how the Confiteor became part of the prayers at the foot of the altar, by the 1960′s, hand missals and textbooks and the example of the Dialogue Mass had taught the laity that the altar boy’s Confiteor was their Confiteor too. If Rome has given permission for the insertion of the 3rd Confiteor in the 1962 Missal, great. If not, please don’t do it because some of us don’t like illicit practices, even in the name of tradition. //…some of us don’t like illicit practices…// Alice: From my reading of Fr. Z’s comments and the comments of other contributors, it seems that the situation is not one of illicitness but of allowing something that is not explicitly forbidden. If the final Confiteor was explicitly forbidden, then it would be illicit – but it doesn’t sound to me like it’s explicitly forbidden. It may merely be regarded as irregular, but acceptable. For example, if I intentionally start a fire in a restaurant I would violate the law. But, there are many other things I could do in a restaurant that would not be illegal but would also not be acceptable. Just as there are things that are not explicitly allowed by the law that are, nonetheless, perfectly acceptable. Perhaps Fr. Z will clarify. Not for the priest (1st Confiteor) and not for the server (2nd Confiteor). The altar servers, like the choir, are representatives of the faithful. The confiteor that they say during the Prayers at the foot of the altar are said on behalf of the people AND for themselves. is not one of illicitness but of allowing something that is not explicitly forbidden Say the black, do the red. What Jesuit school trained you? The latest fashion from our NO pastor is to leave out the first Confiteor…. wolfeken: There is in the sacred liturgy a communal prayer led by the priest, acting in the person of Christ but also acting on behalf of the members of the Church, which is directed to the praise and glory of the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit. During certain parts of the Mass, the Church asks the people to actively join in, and at other parts to allow the priest alone to speak on behalf of the people through Christ, with Him, and in Him. In Sacrosanctum Concilium, the Church asks that all the prayers recited by the priest be seen as prayers on behalf of the people, not “his prayers, the servers’ prayers, the servers’ or priest’s prayers on behalf of the people.” The liturgy is not meant to be chopped up into compartments which certain people posses as their special property. So technically, we only need one confiteor, and one of everything else. As far as the Low Mass prayers, those are not part of the liturgy and are not relevant to a discussion of rubrics, per se. In the 1962 Missal, it is not required to follow Low Mass with the Leonine prayers, but since Mass is finished at that point, the priest and people are free to engage in any devotional actions they may wish without violating any Mass rubric. The Church encourages, outside of Mass, any and all devotional prayers, including the reciting of the Leonine prayers. On the other hand, the pre-Communion Confiteor is part of rubrics within the Mass, and the insistence on including it is a violation of the rubric. I don’t know why we must dispense ourselves from “Say the black, do the red” at this part of the liturgy but not others. It is very simple. The priest and servers at Mass should not be doing what is not prescribed. Father Z wrote, “However, the 1962MR does not have the 2nd Confiteor before Holy Communion. In many places, I would guess most places, it is done anyway regardless.” I do believe this is the case, as I attend the EF at a FSSP parish and the Confiteor is always there before Holy Communion. At every FSSP Mass I’ve ever been to, in fact, this has been the case.; the commenter did not say anything about other Western Liturgies or about the Eastern Liturgies. Certainly other approved liturgies are worthy of our attention, but isn’t it okay to prefer one Rite over another? Especially if the preferred Rite is a commonly accepted Rite of the region where one lives, and more importantly, if the preferred Rite is celebrated in the parish or diocese where one lives? Additionally, the title “the Mass of the Ages” has, for quite some time, been understood to refer to the EF form of the Mass. Pretty good discussion here. As a member of a Schola, I find myself grateful every week for the Confiteor before Holy Communion. Why? During the 1st confiteor, I’m busy singing either an Introit or a Kyrie, so the extra recollection is very helpful. Chris Several things, 1. I do not know what the current status of the prayers after low Mass are, but in 1962 they were no optional. They could, however, be omitted in certain cases (when the Mass is followed by Benediction or a procession, when a sermon is given, when the Mass is celebrated with more solemnity-e.g. a nuptial Mass, etc). This at least is what the most recent edition of Fortescue-O’Connell-Reid states, as well as the Ceremonies of the Mass by O’Connell 2. The FSSP follows a very simply rule in general here. Where it was retained as custom, the 2nd/3rd confiteor is said in their Masses. Where it was not so retained they do not re-introduce it. Hence the different experiences of different people 3. Wolfeken- assuming the 3rd Confietor is still allowed in 1962, it is certainly permissible to chant it. The rubrics do not direct this, but custom sanctions it. We make a mistake when we read rubrics as if they were American laws. For instance, according to the rubrics a processional cross is used only in Pontifical Masses and a few Masses a year (e.g. Palm Sunday). Yet in English speaking countries the use of such a cross is common place. Or again, according to the rubrics the bell at Mass is rung a) at the sanctus, b) sometime shortly before the consecration c) either once continually, or three times for each elevation. d) Shortly before communion to single to the faithful who may wish to receive to come up. The exact manner (e.g. at the Hanc Igitur) is not determined, and custom admits a variety of other rings. To all- In the Ceremonies of the Roman Rite, Canon O’Connell has an excellent chapter on rubrics and custom. Read it before you start accusing priests of disobedience. Or else get equally worked up about a processional cross being used, the omission of the Sanctus candle, or the use of more than one server at low Mass of a priest (actually that last one was reprobated several times by the SRC, who allowed the use of more than one only when there was a just cause) 4. As a point of fact, it is not disobedience to have the 3rd Confiteor. I wrote the Society of St. John Cantius about this (and have talked to various priests, e.g. Fr. Berg, FSSP). Fr. Scott Haynes, SJC gave me this. Now I would like to see said copy of the SCR decree and obviously can only trust that what this priest wrote me is true, but I think it is downright scandalous and indeed the utmost disrespect to the priests of the FSSP or ICR to call them disobedient. You would have to claim also that priests of the SCJ, FSSP, et al. are liars. It may well be legitimate to wonder about how this works, to ask a priest if he can show you where permission is had or point you in the right direction, etc. But to jump to, as many com-box attackers have here, accusations of disobedience is abhorrent To clarify: what I have been told by the FSSP is that they were given permission for it where it was still customary upon their arrival (whether that means a pre-existing Latin Mass group, or, as with the SCJ, it was done in the 1960′s I do not know). My understanding is that they don’t want to “rock the boat” too much with communities that expect it. I use my father’s 1954 missal at Mass, and expected the 2nd Confiteor – and I got it at the regular Friday Mass I attend. I did notice one week when I forgot the Missal, that it was not in the LMS version. I also saw it at the FSSP Masses. I like it, because I am occasionally prone to distraction and thus venial sin at Mass, that I love to feel that I am confessing and receiving absolution quietly at the point I have finally decided to receive Communion. I am not over-scrupulous – it just feels right. I Of course, our priest simply removes the first confiteor from our O.F. Mass and dispenses with the whole problem… \\)….\\ In the Apostles’ Creed, it says, “I believe in the forgiveness of sins…..” Does that not mean we are required to believe that (should the spiritual conditions be met) our sins are forgiven? *; ** It is one thing to love or prefer one particular rite and spiritual tradition of the Church. I make no secret that I love the Byzantine tradition. This does not mean I do not respect the other authorized Liturgies of the Church, and assist at them as I am able. However, I have noticed that aficionados of the Extraordinary Form frequently use the term “mass of the/all ages” to assert that is it somehow inherently superior to the Ordinary Form, if not all the other authorized Eucharistic Liturgies as well. In my experience, many of such people have not even HEARD that there are Eastern Liturgies, or even non-Roman Western liturgies, but are merely using “mass of the/all ages” in a triumphalist way. Others labor under the mistaken and outdated notion that the Roman Rite somehow has some kind of pre-eminence or priority or perfection, and the more an Eastern liturgy is assimilated to it, the more “perfect” it is. It seems there is plenty of reason to say that the 2nd/3rd Confiteor is legitimate. The Leonine prayers are basically a “prescribed” devotional, but I don’t see why we do not just keep them going. I do not see any reason to throw around terms like “disobedient” and so forth. It is especially quite beautiful at a Solemn High Mass. As to the other liturgies and the “Mass of the Ages”, at least in my experience, other TLM fans also appreciate the other traditional liturgies-East and West. However, it is just the way it is that the Latin Rite has the preeminence in that it is the most wide spread. When most people think “Catholic” they think of the Roman Rite. Even in the secular world, when they want to paint something as Catholic (especially in film) it is often in varying degrees of the pre-Vatican II Roman trappings. Its basically shorthand to speak of all things Roman as preeminently Catholic, inaccurate yes, but resonate with lived collective experience. Much thanks for the original post and all of the comments. I recently moved to a parish which includes a traditional Latin Mass in its Sunday Mass schedule. Having grown up with the Latin Mass (Vatican II began when I was in grade school), I was very pleased to dig out my old Latin-English missal again. But I was really puzzled by the “extra” Confiteor right before Communion. I had never experienced that before. So I was really wondering what was up. It’s nice to have some of the historical background now. Dear Joshua08: Thank you for your contribution on the last confiteor; it ought to be more widely known. Sincerely, John Pepino When the Confiteor was dropped as part of Blessed John XXIII’s revised rubrics in 1960, permission was given shortly after by the Sacred Congregation of Rites to continue the second Confiteor, where it was an established custom. Fine, assuming that there WAS such a custom, uninterrupted. And I’m sure you can supply a citation, which would be interesting for all parties. But when it is re-instated despite strict obedience to the 1962 rubrics (from 1962-200X), the argument from “custom” is void. That is a case, by the way, with which I am intimately familiar. (The disobedience extends to using the “Benedicamus Domino” at all Masses during Lent and Advent, another practice which was deleted, and there are other seriously questionable practices which I won’t discuss here.) Then we have ‘disobedience’, plain and simple. And if one digs around enough, one discovers that the 3rd Confiteor had been dropped (de facto) in most cases because there WAS NO celebration of the EF from ~1969 to ~2000. How can one claim “uninterrupted custom” with a 30-year gap? The origin of the practice was thoroughly explained above–which also thoroughly explains the reason(s) it was dropped. (See Black Hat’s entry.) The Roman Ritual as late as 1964 still provides for the use of the Confiteor before the reception of Holy Communion by the faithful as an option That was covered under my entry for “Daily Communicants” who did NOT attend the entire Mass. You’re applying legislation to the wrong case. dad29: Very good point. A custom is something that should endure for years, and yet if the EF has been gone all those years in most communities, how can one claim a “custom” as reason to continue the confiteor right before Communion? Beyond the issues of “oh well, it’s already a custom here” or “we don’t want to confuse the faithful” there is the tendency of priests to simply do what they wish to do at the liturgy. This is actually not willful disobedience. It is simply a tendency of many priests, both liberal and traditionalist, to do things during Mass that they sincerely believe are for the good of the faithful and fall under “epikeia” or prudential judgment. The thinking is to make up your mind on a liturgical practice, and then build a theological or legal rationalization around it, or find refuge in obscure indults, special permissions, etc. I find that disagreeable, but that is simply how priests tend to think when they deal with liturgical practices which they feel like/insist on doing. Dad29, I believe that the SSPX has reinserted the pre-Communion Confiteor since their founding, so in some places it is “established custom.” If a priest in union with the local bishop offers the EF in a place where the SSPX has been established for a while, I can see why Rome might have given permission for this priest to reinsert this Confiteor. I just don’t know that Rome HAS given such permission and without it, it should not be done. Fr. Basil, Thank you for not ascribing to malice would could be ascribed to ignorance, but I am not sure that is always (or even often) the case. I can still get worked up about one book I read by a Latin Rite triumphalist who argued that since the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom was only published 10 years before the Council of Trent, it didn’t fall under the established tradition exception or remembering how our priest told us that there were no rubrics in the Divine Liturgy so the priest was even freer to do whatever he wanted than in the Novus Ordo. Many people are ignorant about the different variants of the Western Mass, which are older than the Mass which Abp. Lefebvre called the “Mass of All-Time” but at least in the circles I found myself there was an active dislike for the non-Latin liturgies. This is actually not willful disobedience. It is simply a tendency of many priests, both liberal and traditionalist, to do things during Mass that they sincerely believe are for the good of the faithful and fall under “epikeia” or prudential judgment. Yes, well…. Sometimes that ‘confiteor’ issue is part of a larger pattern of willful deviations from established norms, in which case(s) “closing one’s eyes” is imprudent–and people are obligated to speak out. I understand “pastoral” considerations. But at the same time, expecting the laity to live to standards and at the same time being a bit………flaccid……..seems to me to be a dangerous path. Which rules are to be obeyed? Which are to be gently ignored? And no, I’m not talking “salvation is at risk” here, but still……VatII places very great weight on the Mass. dad29: And therein lies the controversy over the pre-Communion confiteor. There is an unspoken assumption in the EF Mass world that the present Magisterium should indeed be gently ignored, at times, in matters regarding the liturgy. To repeat a favorite mantra of many people, “the novus ordo is a big joke. What right do novus ordo hierarchy and priests have to question the Mass of the Ages?” Of course, Fr. Z doesn’t tolerate that disrespect in his blog, but it doesn’t mean that many folks do not quietly think that way towards the present Magisterium. I can understand why the FSSP would gravitate to reciting the last confiteor. The SSPX recite the pre-Communion confiteor, and for many they are still the true standard of what is Catholic. And sad to say, the FSSP is at times dogged with the accusation that they are not really as Catholic as the SSPX, that they are compromised, watered down, and not as free as SSPX to be true defenders of tradition. That is not my opinion, by the way; I deeply admire the FSSP. But if the FSSP tell their priests to not recite the pre-Communion confiteor, it does leave them vulnerable to the accusation that they are indult wannabees who are prepared to act just like the “indult priests” who are not true priests but “presbyters.” In some ways, reciting the pre-Communion confiteor is a way to say, “see, we still offer a true Catholic Mass.” I still don’t buy, Joshua08, the argument that custom allows the final Confiteor to be sung in a non-pontifical High Mass. The missal is very clear as to what is sung and what is not. And it (or the Pontificale Ceremoniale) very clearly says the final Confiteor is to be sung at a pontifical High Mass. If a “custom” arises to sing this pontifical privilege at a regular High Mass, then what is to stop a “custom” of singing the final blessing? As far as those who claim the traditional Latin Mass was “gone” from 1969 to 2007′ish, it is possible that it was gone from your world, but recall the people who worked to get the 1970 Agatha Christie indult, the JPII 1984/88 indults and the Benedict motu proprio have been saying/hearing this Mass validly in one location or another non-stop. Please don’t assume the Mass magically re-started when you attended the novus ordo. To that end, it absolutely makes sense to say the old SCR permission for a final Confiteor still applies. In some ways, reciting the pre-Communion confiteor is a way to say, “see, we still offer a true Catholic Mass.” Umnnhhh….see today’s post on this very blog. . —wherein “he” is B-16, speaking to the Bishops of Italy. There is no real dilemma here, just as there is no ‘dilemma’ in stating that “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood…”. Either take it or leave it. There was no ‘pastoral shimmy’ in those words, good Father. By the way, I’m sure you’ve noticed that no one has YET come up with a citation “indulging” this practice. Moreover, it is irrelevant what SSPX does or did. Their abuse of the Liturgy cannot license another abuse of the Liturgy, can it? Ah, well. This video from the 1940′s shows the chanting of the 2nd confiteor. I again urge that people pick up a copy of O’Connell (pre-1962 versions are at least online) and read what he says of custom. Try to stop thinking like a modern about prescriptive law, and start thinking remembering that custom can even abrogate the laws of Councils, and is the best interpreter of laws and makes laws. As I said in my post above, I can only trust what I have been told when I inquired. It is extremely unhealthy, arrogant and misplaced for a layman to jump to accusing any of these priests of disobedience. If you go to a Mass where the 2nd confiteor is done, inquire if you must, but don’t presume that your amateur reading of rubrics is the end all and be all of how things are to be done. Or else get rid of processional crosses, using more than one server at a low Mass and various other things that are clearly customs against the rubrics. I do not claim to know with certitude that every use of the 2nd confiteor is legitimate. But it is not my worry or concern. I do know that both the SSPX and FSSP do it only where the congregation expects it….and considering that custom arises from the ground up, is not imposed by a priest and can gain the force of law even when against a law (depending on the case) I hesitate to censure anyone. The FSSP claims that Ecclesia Dei greenlighted this policy (see ). Perhaps they are lying. But that would be presumption to assume that. And again, rubrics are not like American law. Say the black, do the red has its use, but law in the Catholic sense is rooted in custom and not merely the vis verborum. For instance, a single genuflection is prescribed at benediction, but no one sane would rebuke a double genuflection there. Again, before the modifications of the GIRM in recent memory, we had the 1973 GIRM and against the rubric of that GIRM we continued kneeling after the Agnus Dei…Rome’s response? Perfectly alright to do! Heck, the new rubric is to bow (when standing) before receiving. But genuflection is fine () The short shrift: liturgical law, like any law really, is not just “black and red” in that what is “red” is in part determined, expanded, etc by custom BTW, the SSPX originally did not do the 2nd Confiteor. They bowed to the custom of places where they were establishing their apostolates. It is extremely unhealthy, arrogant and misplaced for a layman to jump to accusing any of these priests of disobedience. Not if that layman is being advised by very senior liturgical Ph.D’s, fella. And please recall that one CAN licitly judge actions. When I see you fatally shoot your mother, I can say, with no hesitation, that you murdered your mother. There may be mitigating circumstances, but it doesn’t change the fact. The FSSP says they have a letter from E.D. allowing their variation. I’m willing to believe that. But that letter does NOT apply to others–and since we can’t see the letter, we don’t even know if it applies only to that particular parish, or to the FSSP in general, or to the FSSP only in the US. Who are you calling fella? Please sir, do not presume you are talking to an uneducated dolt. If letters after a name count, I am not without them. PhD’s in liturgy? I know a few myself (well more accurately S.T.L and S.T.D’s with a liturgical/sacramental theology emphasis). But most liturgists I know tend to think “traditional = bad” and also tend to have a very American understanding of the law. Note you have not addressed the issue of custom, which makes, abrogates and interprets laws. Church law is not as prescriptive as modern law. The fact is you have admitted, you do not know. So please stop calumny. You have not seen that letter right…maybe it lays down a general principle, may not. Who knows? I do not. But neither do you. And if it is a personal rescript one can possibly argue they would get the same response (assuming similar circumstances) and act on it. Who are you to say it does not apply? Church law is, despite its codification, not yet modern, despite your protestations. And again, do you work at suppressing having two servers at low Mass? Not only is that against the rubrics, but on several occasions (e.g. 1953) the SRC reprobated the use of more than one with certain exceptions. There you have a clear and unequivocal abuse. Now go at it and foam at the mouth and cry abuse. Take away those processional crosses, and tackle servers that carry the thurible during the recessional and fight against all those horrendous abuses. What no? No one cares about the fact that those practices are contra rubricam? Instead they like to attack only the issue of the second confiteor? Why is that? Custom? It is clear that in the vast majority of the cases here and abroad, “custom” has nothing to do with it. You claim that “custom” is in place when the EF was not celebrated for 30 (or more) years. Well, OK. Then perhaps the custom of celebrating Mass on the hood of a Jeep for armed forces should be revived. It’s only been in dis-use since the end of the Korean War, after all. Curious that you crusade against one “custom”–that of using 2 altar servers–while frothing and spittle-spewing over those who are disturbed by another “custom.” Calumniator, indeed.