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Project Manager: Yep Soon as I get this This is our last meeting I will go ahead and go through the minutes from the previous meeting and then we will have a the prototype presentation then we will do an evaluation or we will see what what we need to have under the criteria for the evaluation Then we will go through the finance and see if we fall within the budget then we will do the evaluation and then we can finish up after that with any changes that we will need to make or hopefully everything will fall right in line let us see minutes from the last meeting we looked at the the trends We had the fashion trends that people want a fancy lookandfeel It was twice as important as anything else they liked fruit and vegetables in the new styles and a spongy feel So we were talking about trying to incorporate those into our prototype they wanted limited buttons and simplicity then we looked at the the method for coming up with our own remote looking at other other devices the iPod we really liked the look of that we also had the kids remote for a simple idea a two part remote which was what were were originally looking at and then there was talk of spee speech recognition becoming more predominant and easier to use But I think we have still decided not to go with that Then we looked at the components the materials for the case the different energy sources the different types of chips and made a decision on what we were going to use to make our remote and basically how what were making for the prototype So I am going to leave it at that and let you guys take over The prototype Do you need a this ? Industrial Designer: Can try to plug that in there User Interface: There is our remo the banana basically we we st went with the colour yellow working on the principle of a fruit which was mentioned it is basically designed around a banana but it would be held in such a fashion where it is obviously it would not be that floppy because this would be hard plastic These would be like the rubber the rubber grips So that is so that would hopefully help with grip or like the ergonomics of it but all the controlling would be done with this scroll wheel You have to use your imagination a little bit And this here represents the screen where you where you would go through And the the simplest functions would be almost identical to an iPod where that one way ch through channels that way th other way through channels Volume up and down And then to access the more complicated functions you would you sorta go you press that and go through the menus It is that that simple That just represents the infrared beam That is a simple on and off switch I do not know we could use the voice T that blue bits should be yellow that that would be where the batteries would be I suppose And that is about it It is as simple as you we could make it really Is there anything you want to add ? Industrial Designer: That is what we have there That is plastic Plastic covered with rubber We might add some more underneath here Maybe give it give it a form I mean you are supposed to hold it like that but just if you grab it take it from somewhere User Interface: Does not make much make much difference You could work lefthanded or righthanded I suppose Industrial Designer: Exactly use both Might as well think about User Interface: T the actual thing might be smaller Industrial Designer: Th think about the button as well Like either put either one one on either side or Project Manager: What but what is that button ? Industrial Designer: not do it at all It is a quick onoff button User Interface: Just the on and off Industrial Designer: I think it is pretty important So you do not have to fiddle with that Right ? that is not I would say a bit smaller would probably be nice You want to play with that over there

Project Manager introduced that the prototype incorporated fashion trends that people prefer fancy looking products like fruit and vegetable. After That, User Interface presented the product which looked like a banana and was bright yellow except for the blue button. The style was as simple as possible in order to fit the customers' need for simplicity. Also, the product could be curved and used both-handed with advanced chips hidden inside, which seemed quite creative and identical to iPod features. In the end, Industrial Designer commented that the remote control could be smaller in size.

Marketing: I do You guys are going to help me do an evaluation of the criteria So first I will just discuss some of the criteria that I found Just based on the past trend reports that I was looking at earlier And then we will do a group evaluation of the prototype And then we will calculate the average score to see how we did so the criteria we are going to be looking at are the complaints that we heard from the users who were interviewed earlier So we are going to be doing it based on a seven point scale And one is going to mean true that we did actually achieve that With seven being false we did not achieve that So for the first one we need to decide did we solved the problem of the users who complained about an ugly remote ? Project Manager: I think it is definitely different than anything else out there So if they think that what is out there is ugly then yes I would say I would say most definitely

Marketing had some evaluation criteria in mind, based on previous marketing strategy, on the latest trends, and on user preferences. The team should figure out whether their product could solve the complaints of the ugly remote control. There was a seven-point scale rating for each criterion. The team would give comments to each feature listed and agree on the final rating.

User Interface: It is bright It is Project Manager: It still has your traditional black User Interface: It is curved It is not there is no sharp Industrial Designer: I would say when it comes to the ergonomics the form and stuff yes that is definitely more beautiful than your average However the colour we do not have a say in that Marketing: I think the colours detract a little bit User Interface: Some people might say it Industrial Designer: That has been that has been dictated pretty much by the company So to answer that honestly I would rather say like we have not solved the problem completely with the ugly remote because the colour is ugly definitely S nothing you can say about that I mean I much prefer something like brushed chrome with that form Project Manager: something more modern to go a a modern colour to go with the modern form Industrial Designer: Right Right It is different You do not want your three feet huge LCD dis display in your living room that is hanging from the wall to be controlled with something like that Marketing: so do you think since we This was a a sign criteria do you think maybe we should put it somewhere in the middle then ? Does that sound good ? What do you think ? Three ? Four ? the second one Did we make it simple for new users ? Industrial Designer: It is very intuitive I think User Interface: I think that was the main aim one of the main aims that we had Industrial Designer: S give it a one Marketing: kay do the controls now match the operating behaviour of the users ? User Interface: Because we have we have brought it down to basically four controls most common which are channel and volume And then the other ones are just a matter of just going just scrolling further Project Manager: S scrolling through and selecting a few Industrial Designer: Right So that is a one Project Manager: I think that is a one Marketing: ? the fourth one How about the problem of a remote being easily lost ? One of the number one complaints Industrial Designer: Something that big and that yellow you just do not lose anymore Marketing: Whether you want to or not you are not going to lose it User Interface: Bright yellows hard to lose But if we were to if we were that the speech recognition That we could maybe just use that solely for the the finding thing That was what we would we would mentioned Project Manager: So if we incorporate speech recognition into it then it could User Interface: Just just to use to find it when it was lost But like I said like I do not think you would lose something so yellow so easily And it is not going to fall like a rectangle would slip down behind things That is going to be a difficult shape to Project Manager: And it is quite bright and User Interface: Maybe in the middle again three or four or something ? I mean you know loo losing things is one of those things that people can lose I mean a million ways You can pick it up and walk away with it and then you have lost it Project Manager: But if we do go with the with the speech recognition then it then our scale goes up quite a bit I think Probably two You know If we eliminate the fact that you know it is impossible to guarantee that it is not going to be lost then With the speech recognition which of course may be changed depending on budget Industrial Designer: Y you could add an extra feature actually Which makes this thing raise hell when you remove it too far from the television We could add that but that is nothing we have thought of so far Project Manager: Which which may be cheaper than speech recognition if it were just a User Interface: true But I mean d just those whistling clapping key rings you have They are cheap Marketing: Annoying alarm or something ? User Interface: So it can not be that Industrial Designer: the it is based on this anti antitheft technology for suitcases and stuff where you have one piece that is attached to your luggage another piece that starts beeping That can not cost much So that can also easily be integrated because these things are small enough to to hide so you have one piece you have to glue somewhere behind your stick it behind your TV and the other User Interface: stick it on the TV Project Manager: Pray that you do not accidentally lose that piece Industrial Designer: That would be tough then Well also your remote would alarm you if somebody stole you t your television Ran off with it without taking the beautiful remote control Marketing: So Are we adding one of these two features ? Industrial Designer: Let us add one of those features and say yes Marketing: So we are back to a one ?

Generally speaking, the team agreed that the product was intuitive and had successfully incorporated main aims that the team had. The team believed the customers were not likely to lose the remote control since it was big and bright yellow with speech recognition. Moreover, Industrial Designer suggested adding an extra feature for the product to raise volume like hell when it was removed so far from the TV. However, the team also noted that costs should be compared when deciding to use annoying alarms or others.

Marketing: Two kay Are we technologically innovative ? User Interface: do not get many mo remote controls with Industrial Designer: It is all just stolen technology when it comes down to Project Manager: But there is not a lot of yellow there is not a lotta yellow Course that was not really we were kind of forced to take that colour I do not know that we are that innovative to tell you the truth Marketing: But how many remotes do you see like this ? Project Manager: If we added the screaming factor then we go up I would say we are probably at four Marketing: Really ? That is going to hurt us Industrial Designer: well you have that kind of sort of User Interface: as much as as needed I think Industrial Designer: It is not a one though One would be the whole thing Project Manager: Because it is only got what these parts are the grips and perhaps the back side the bottom the underneath on the back Industrial Designer: So that is a four at most Project Manager: Probably a four at most Possibly even a five Marketing: And lastly did we put the fashion in electronics ? I would say we did Project Manager: If your fashion is b is Carmen Miranda you betcha Industrial Designer: Well the recent fashion is rather displayed in the in the LCD and the way you operate it than the form and the colour

To start with, the team agreed that the remote control was indeed innovative with the LCD display incorporated and the way it could be used both-handed with an alarming feature. Also, it aimed at the recent fashion trend since it looked like a banana with a special yellow colour. Although some of its features were identical to an iPod, the team believed that it was a creative design for remote control.

Project Manager: We have energy source electronics case Then we have case material supplements interface type and then button supplements so first of all energy source we picked battery and how many batteries do we think this will probably take ? Probably some e either two or four Industrial Designer: At four it is going to be too heavy so that that is not our problem People can change it every month They will not know until after they bought it Project Manager: Alright so for the electronics our choices are simpl simple chiponprint regular chiponprint advanced chiponprint sample sensor sample speaker User Interface: We are advanced chip are we ? Industrial Designer: That is the advanced chiponprint Project Manager: Kay we have one of those Kay then the case is a Probably it is double curved plastic I guess it is two since one for the top one for the bottom Is that right or is it just one ? Industrial Designer: No that is just one Project Manager: Maybe it is one because of the Industrial Designer: It is just one mo single mould we can do that Project Manager: I guess it does not matter because the price on that one is zero which is nice Industrial Designer: That is not a special colour It is a specially ugly colour but it is not special Project Manager: Interface type We have pushbutton scrollwheel interface integrated scrollwheel pushbutton and an LCD display So we actually have the LCD display and then is it the integrated or is it User Interface: I would say the integrated Project Manager: Kay Button supplement ? Special colour ? special form ? Special material Industrial Designer: We could of course make the buttons wood Marketing: It would look really lovely Project Manager: They cost us all the same Well we only have one button so really we should not be charged we should not be charged anything for the the button supplements User Interface: No that is getting a bit tiny Project Manager: We are going to leave that one blank because we run on a LCD and scroll So our total is fifteen point five Which I believe is Industrial Designer: It is hard to believe So we will go for the hand dynamo huh ? Project Manager: So the only thing better than a bananashaped remote is one that you shake User Interface: If it w What if we completely took out the the one single button we have got on And just had a scroll wheel interface And the LCD display I suppose the LCD C displays the one that is pushing it up a bit though Project Manager: Well because we have to have both right ? Industrial Designer: I mean let us let us face it it also depends on the software on the on the television You can have the the information that this thing transmits be being displayed on the on the screen So s let us take away the User Interface: you could maybe take out the LCD dis display even if it if it comes up on the computer itsel on the TV itself Project Manager: So we may not need the LCD display ? Industrial Designer: Right We may not need it There you go Project Manager: So we just remove our User Interface: Make it a bigger dial Easier to use Even easier to use then Project Manager: Besides look at what the LCD does to our lovely remote Back to the design room boys Industrial Designer: So we can just take away a heck of a lot of the there you go central ? Marketing: What is the blue part ? User Interface: we ran out of yellow Marketing: Oh that is the batteries Looks more like a banana User Interface: For all those fruit lovers out there

Project Manager first introduced the budget and broke it down to parts like batteries, electronics, case material supplements, interface type and then button supplements. The team agreed that the push button, integrated scroll-wheel and the LCD display cost a lot but case materials were all the same. In this case, the team decided to discard the LCD since the information it could transmit could also be simply displayed on the screen. As for the recognition feature, the team decided to make it a big deal to be alarming. And lastly, the product would be pure yellow instead of a blue button.

Project Manager: h what did you think of our project process ? User Interface: I think we did I think we did quite well Industrial Designer: Just half a day you have a remote There you go User Interface: Right from the start of the day We sort of knew where we were going straight away I thought Project Manager: we st we started off a little little weak Our leadership was quite weak in the beginning But as the day went along we had more idea of what we were doing room for creativity ? There was that I think we tried a lotta different things and I think it was interesting as you guys brought up more information and studies that we were right on with a lot of those things you guys worked together well as a team And the means ? Which was the whiteboard and the pens User Interface: We have used the whiteboard Project Manager: I had some problem with the pen I think but minus your p Industrial Designer: Well that is not my fault That is obviously the people I work for that work for me Marketing: No I know I am Industrial Designer: they have just you know Heads are going to roll believe me Project Manager: we have a list of employees that you would like fired N new ideas found ? Yes for the remote Maybe no not f for technology Alright Closing Costs are within the budget Project is evaluated complete the final questionnaire and meeting summary That is it

The team thought they had a really great team work experience. Everyone had put efforts into the process and gave opinions to design a good remote control. Also, the process incorporated different stages and new ideas could always be added based on the market finds.

Marketing: evaluation Basic point have a list of criteria that we need to rate the prototype by then we will it is a seven s seven seven step kind of evaluation process So not seven steps seven scale So after we have finished doing all the ratings for each criteria we average that and that will give us some type of confidence in our prototype And the criteria based on Real Reactions kind of goals and policies marketing strategies and also those I put together from the user requirements phase Kay if you flip the So those are the criteria And perhaps I could have put them a bit better but you notice a few things that we have totally abandoned which means that the product will score very badly on some of those points Put it mildly So we have true ? One t Seven eight oh Fourth so we have to go through each point If we imagine it is actually straight and just give it a a score So how well would you say the prototype is how well have we realised the dream of being able to stop remotes from from being lost or to be able to find them once they are lost I mean is the homing thing still the locator is that still User Interface: that is still part of the design Marketing: Sure And Adam we can keep that in ? Project Manager: I believe so So I mean I do not think anybody could actually stop a remote being lost because that would mean doing something about the human element but I would like to think that we have done something about finding the damn thing once we have User Interface: Mm Mm And making it a bright colour helps with the personally I would have gone for purple Marketing: Mm Bright colour So we still have that noise thing ? Os on a scale of one to seven how would you guys rate it for finding finding it once it is lost ? User Interface: I would say number one Marketing: Number number one for the first criteria User Interface: I think w if it was just the sounder then th I mean something I have found with w w with say tr trying to find a cordless phone or a m mobile you can hear it but you can not quite pin it dow pin down where it is Marketing: you can tell what room the mobile is Industrial Designer: What about what if the the volume on the TVs turned up massively and you just want to turn down the volume can not find remote Suppose you have to go to the TV and do it manually Mm Like y you would not hear the speaker Project Manager: just before we go through all of the steps here well what we will do is Marketing: You want to say something ? Project Manager: if we can look at the criteria you are going to evaluate and then we will come back to the product evaluation if that is alright Marketing: Oh that is that is fine Project Manager: so is there anything here that you that you wanted to cover as in the criteria that you have covered ? And then we will come back pretty much promptly to this Marketing: What do you mean cr is there anything I want to Project Manager: I is there any of these criteria that need any explaining ? Or is there anything that yous thought tha really would stand out compared to the others ? Marketing: a few Something I neglected from my initial research is that Real Reactions has a a goal strategy that all of the products be inspired by material fashion and clothing fashion That is why fruit and veg being popular in the home and in clothing was important and they want all their products to be somehow inspired by current trends in fashion So they say we put the fashion in electronics well they really mean it they they are very big on fashion so That is this bit right here And this bit is this one easy to use for visitors or for anybody ? I guess it is just the same as saying easy to use interface so it is kind of condensed into one And we can come back to it you said Project Manager: No and which we will do very very shortly Slight problem we had was that we have an amazing four Euros over budget for what we were hoping to do most of it stems from the use of the LCD which I think in the end accounted for about half of our expenditure because of course we required a chip as well the only way to get this down was either to ditch the a LCD at which point we have removed a large part of how we were going to interface require more buttons etcetera Or what we did was that we we as in I as I was quickly going over it was altering the actual structure changing it to plastic and a solid unit with a single curve design would allow us to come back into the proposed costs and we are just scraping it in we have got point two of a Euro left over there So we are just managing it really Even then as well there was no criteria technically defined for a joystick so I have used what I thinks appropriate With any luck that will not mean that we have incurred more cost than we can actually afford to It blows a lot of our really good ideas kind of slightly to one side for example the possibility of having a USB connection is definitely not viable now That should still be viable We have got an advanced chip we have got the use of the LCD So being able to communicate in multiple languages is still very much a possibility but what is something we need to decide on is how we are going to go from here We do need to try and come up with an idea which could be continued with other people if need be We can I can bring the excel up sheet up and show you if you wish I really think as m much as it pains me is that we might have to go with plastic and some kind of solid design possibly meaning that the LCD would not be in this perfect place It might be s stuck like slightly between what would be good for left handed and what would be good for a right handed person User Interface: Mmhmm I suppose o one thing that could be done is h is have it circular and have it s so that the the pink actually goes a bit over the pinkie finger Mm Project Manager: It very much is about making concessions unfortunately Marketing: Do you have any data on how much different prints cost ? I mean can you get the entire thing printed with a design ? Project Manager: b b b da is you mean on the plastic or ? Let us have a look You now have as much information as I do So as you can see here for example the battery really not very little choice in that one We have gone for one of the cheaper options as well Unfortunately we require the advanced chip if we are going to do what we are needing to I have said single curved We really do need it to be that way for the ergonomics of it plastic for some reason incurs no cost which I have had to very much make advantage of despite the fact that rubbers only got a value of two Euros per unit Problem comes here as you can see in the interface if I have read this thing correctly then we can save point five of a Euro here in that it is not per push button That might make sense because then a numeric keypad would come in at what four point five Euros which is an awful lot so that could well be wrong Even if we save point five there it would just mean that we are most likely placing it in actually just gaining a colour for the unit which has had to be put to one side As you can see the use of an LC display advanced chip and what would determine the scroll wheel here as well because it is an integrated scroll scroll wheel push button that was not quite what I think they had in mind with a joystick Marketing: Why would why would that be more expensive than an individual push button and scroll wheel together ? That is quite significantly expensive Project Manager: I that is something you will have to take up with the bean counters as you can see I mean that is taken up well over half of the price So I am very much open to suggestions of where we go but because we need to she would what was four Euros off of the the price of for what we really desired this one comes in under price as you can see but this was the one that sacrificed the material for the case and for the actual case design Marketing: We do not even have speakers here The like we what about speakers and transmitters and stuff like that ? Have we factored that in ? Project Manager: no we have not not Marketing: Transmitter receiver speakers Plus the extra device itself that is going to be on a TV Is that going to be a button or Project Manager: That will it literally would just be a button Industrial Designer: That is too expensive is not it ? Project Manager: It looks like almost nothing Mm Oh good call I missed that Marketing: I I mean it is not on here but Project Manager: that is a very valid point Marketing: Did they s do we have to use an advanced chip for the LCD ? Project Manager: So if we are going to go with the LC display then that is Marketing: What is a hand dyna dynamo ? You have to wind it up ? Project Manager: That would probably not be in keeping with the the fashion statement and such Industrial Designer: So basically the only new thing is the LCD on the remote now Project Manager: Being manipulated by the joystick Which I am defining as scroll wheel Marketing: And we could not replace the joystick right ? Because we would need four extra buttons to replace it up down left and right and that would be more expensive than a but is a scroll wheel not just back and forward ? Project Manager: it is just because there was no actual definition for what a joystick might be that that is what I have labelled it for the purposes of this evaluation Industrial Designer: So The LCD basically is the big selling point of Project Manager: If we remove the LC display we could save ourselves a fair amount Which you could Industrial Designer: But that is what makes it original though User Interface: Mm I think if we remove the the LC display then there was absolutely no point to any of these meetings and we just we could just put our branding on any other remote control Project Manager: It is a shame We should possibly have If we could have increased the price we could have manufactured that and we could have got something far closer to what we were hoping to Marketing: Does this does this bear in mind that I mean it is a bit ridiculous that they are going to charge us what is it like this much money for three million if we are going to buy three million components Project Manager: Again you will have to argue with the accountants on that one but for the purposes of this meeting I am we are going to have to stick with these figures So I would say that it would seem like the general opinion is we are going to keep the LC display because it is about what really separates us despite the cost it is going to incur are people maybe not happy with but are willing to go ahead with this in going for a plastic solid case to keep the LCD ? User Interface: Mmhmm I mean one thing I mean ho how much extra would it be to to keep I mean keep the the articulation ? Project Manager: It is hard to tell I would say that you are at least going to take double curved User Interface: This is what I am wondering Project Manager: and even then I am not quite sure if that is incorporating the idea of articulation User Interface: no I think I I it d that it need not require it to be double curved Industrial Designer: It can be s it can still be single curved User Interface: It is it is just it is just it is just that the case would come in t would be made in two parts and then joined together with an articulation Project Manager: Single curved with articulation ? Marketing: Could we could we not get rid of the curvy the curvous the curvaceousness and focus on the menu being the best interface ? Because like we do we have re restrictions on software ? Industrial Designer: That is what we need for the joystick I think though Marketing: Oh but there has to be User Interface: and I mean the I mean if you look if you look closer at the at the prototype here the lines here along the grip are actually quite straight I mean Project Manager: But the curves all o over hand User Interface: on the on the LCD I mean although we have done it with a curve it could just as easily be done without curves The curve that is really needed is up here to put to keep the joystick in a good ergonomic position for it to have it rest on the top of the hand Project Manager: We would not actually save a lot by reducing it anyway so I mean for the purposes of this meeting maybe we can state that single curve still allows articulation unless we hear otherwise we could go ahead with that proposal Marketing: So I think the product is not going to perform so well for my criteria Project Manager: Which is what we can get onto now As long as so are we going to say w we have to keep an eye on the time as well but we are going to say single curved design Marketing: Oh wait a minute Sample speaker ? What is a sample speaker ? Is that somewhat similar to what we want ? Project Manager: but at a cost of User Interface: that is that voice response thing that we got the email about But I thought it was just completely pointless Marketing: You got a email about voice response ? User Interface: B i basically it was saying that our labs had come up with a chip that you could you know say hello to and it would say hello back in a friendly female voice Project Manager: we will definitely will not go with that one Marketing: We will not go with that one did you say ? Project Manager: that is voice recognition so Marketing: So it looks like we are going to get rid of the whole loca locator thing Project Manager: It looks like it unless we can manage to put it in under point two Euros Maybe even slight well oh pretty much point two Euros I would say So we will leave that one for now we will just have Industrial Designer: Are we going for a special colour at all ? Project Manager: It is a case of I am slightly unsure One point five of a Euro for one push button does not sound quite right So maybe it is a case of a push button is maybe one or more Industrial Designer: I was for a case Or had you already incorporated that ? Marketing: Oh special colour for the case Project Manager: Well you got point five there It is literally a case of whether or not this is correct I am not quite sure if they are I do not think they mean point five Euros per button User Interface: l let us say that and then we can have our special coloured case and then we at least have make it a little harder to lose Because most m most remotes are a fairly dingy colour that gets camouflaged under any pile of crap in a living room Marketing: W what is the default colour ? White or black ? Project Manager: Blacks probably the normal colour you would say I quite like that colour that you are fetching there it is definitely for make it glow in the dark even better So will we go with that then ? It is not and we can see we will come back to your evaluation which you are probably now going to pan us but there we go Just to give you an idea you want to go maybe a bit quickly as well I am not sure how much time We have not hit the five minute mark warning yet Industrial Designer: Think it is ten minutes left

The use of the LCD screen and the advanced chip cost the team half of the expenditure. Due to the budget limit, the team had to abandon some other designs such as the rubber material and the double-curved structure. The USB connection was not feasible for now as well. For the location function, a transmitter, a receiver and speakers could be incorporated on a TV instead.

User Interface: Mmhmm I mean one thing I mean ho how much extra would it be to to keep I mean keep the the articulation ? Project Manager: It is hard to tell I would say that you are at least going to take double curved User Interface: This is what I am wondering Project Manager: and even then I am not quite sure if that is incorporating the idea of articulation User Interface: no I think I I it d that it need not require it to be double curved Industrial Designer: It can be s it can still be single curved User Interface: It is it is just it is just it is just that the case would come in t would be made in two parts and then joined together with an articulation Project Manager: Single curved with articulation ? Marketing: Could we could we not get rid of the curvy the curvous the curvaceousness and focus on the menu being the best interface ? Because like we do we have re restrictions on software ? Industrial Designer: That is what we need for the joystick I think though Marketing: Oh but there has to be User Interface: and I mean the I mean if you look if you look closer at the at the prototype here the lines here along the grip are actually quite straight I mean Project Manager: But the curves all o over hand User Interface: on the on the LCD I mean although we have done it with a curve it could just as easily be done without curves The curve that is really needed is up here to put to keep the joystick in a good ergonomic position for it to have it rest on the top of the hand Project Manager: We would not actually save a lot by reducing it anyway so I mean for the purposes of this meeting maybe we can state that single curve still allows articulation unless we hear otherwise we could go ahead with that proposal

In the budget balancing, User Interface desired an articulation, which would, however, lead the remote control to be double-curved. Initially, Project Manager was not sure about this, for the double-curved design would go over the budget. Industrial Designer pointed out that a single curve would still allow the articulation. The remote control could be made in two parts and joined together with the articulation. Project Manager accepted Industrial Designer's proposal.

Marketing: Oh wait a minute Sample speaker ? What is a sample speaker ? Is that somewhat similar to what we want ? Project Manager: but at a cost of User Interface: that is that voice response thing that we got the email about But I thought it was just completely pointless Marketing: You got a email about voice response ? User Interface: B i basically it was saying that our labs had come up with a chip that you could you know say hello to and it would say hello back in a friendly female voice Project Manager: we will definitely will not go with that one Marketing: We will not go with that one did you say ? Project Manager: that is voice recognition so Marketing: So it looks like we are going to get rid of the whole loca locator thing Project Manager: It looks like it unless we can manage to put it in under point two Euros Maybe even slight well oh pretty much point two Euros I would say So we will leave that one for now we will just have Industrial Designer: Are we going for a special colour at all ? Project Manager: It is a case of I am slightly unsure One point five of a Euro for one push button does not sound quite right So maybe it is a case of a push button is maybe one or more Industrial Designer: I was for a case Or had you already incorporated that ? Marketing: Oh special colour for the case Project Manager: Well you got point five there It is literally a case of whether or not this is correct I am not quite sure if they are I do not think they mean point five Euros per button User Interface: l let us say that and then we can have our special coloured case and then we at least have make it a little harder to lose Because most m most remotes are a fairly dingy colour that gets camouflaged under any pile of crap in a living room Marketing: W what is the default colour ? White or black ? Project Manager: Blacks probably the normal colour you would say I quite like that colour that you are fetching there it is definitely for make it glow in the dark even better

User Interface told the team that the corporate had decided to incorporate a voice recognition chip into the remote control so that the team had to invent another method for users to locate the remote control once it got lost in a room. The team decided to make the remote control a special colour. Meanwhile, the remote control would be able to camouflage in the living room. Project Manager further proposed that the team could also make the remote control glow in the dark.

Marketing: Kay Ability to stop remotes from being lost or to find them once they are lost User Interface: Three I think we can do three Marketing: Three if we are being generous I feel User Interface: Th the special colour does not would I think make a difference Marketing: Think we are being generous here with three User Interface: It makes it stand out from you know it is lost in a big pile of crap it stands out from the rest of the crap Marketing: Reduce the number of unused buttons We are down to t two buttons is it ? User Interface: Two buttons and a joystick Marketing: so that is a one You know Project Manager: I would say we are doing well there Marketing: that was good Easy to use interface buttons menu menus that is that is good Kay that is we are not doing so badly easy to use oh let us forget that one Fancy looking User Interface: It does not get much fancier Marketing: Sure And we could do whatever we like with the L LCD let us just assume it is a good LCD display Maybe I was panicking for no reason Industrial Designer: Are we going one on ? I would say we go two because like f the fanciest would be the double curved Marketing: w maybe you would be a bit too Industrial Designer: With the articulators With bells on it Marketing: that is m that is that is better too More accurate numbers Technologically innovative Well we are getting rid of the locator thing User Interface: Mm I would give it a three for this for that I mean the menus thing is something you do not normally see on on a remote but you see it in a lot of other places Marketing: And y what you are doing is moving the menu from the television to the remote control so it is You say three ? I might go as far as two on that Three User Interface: I would give it a three Project Manager: I would be tempted with three We will get panned on the next one anyway Marketing: Materials that people find pleasing Sponginess is what they really would have wanted apparently Project Manager: It is Do not blame them because of the way that we have minimalised the number of buttons and such Plastic it sucks But it is no worse than any of the other pl remote controls we have Marketing: That is true It is not a step backwards User Interface: Mmhmm I would s I I would give it a six to be honest Marketing: let us give it a six that is totally thrown everything off balance Inspired by the latest interior and clothing fashion W we could What colour were we going to make it ? Industrial Designer: Put a leopard print on it User Interface: Well I I I would sa I would say give a s give a selection of colours we went with yellow we went with yellow for the prototype because we had yellow If I were buying one I would go for purple Leopard print would be cool Marketing: But by this I think it is more a case of fruit and veg Industrial Designer: we got to I would say the colour of the border there world you would find that that is that would stand out Project Manager: Like yellow It would also help keep the the product placement s Is it inspired by clothing fashion ? Marketing: But Th th they are referring to the fruit and veg thing Is this like a banana type colour ? Could we stretch no still it is not shaped like a banana is User Interface: That is kind of i Project Manager: It is kind o it User Interface: it will not be when it is been Marketing: Oh is that because it is flat ? What is what fruit or veg is flat ? User Interface: I I think s I I think this is not not particularly fruit and veggie Marketing: Or we might have to suffer badly for this one as well Project Manager: I mean it is probably more fruit and veg than most other things out there bar fruit and veg so what four ? Marketing: Four ? Oh that is it is very ambitious Project Manager: Is that being too generous ? User Interface: Mm I would I would I do not think fruit and veg is the sole criterion Is the sole criterion for being fashion fashionable or inspired by current fashions I would g I would rate I would rate this fairly highly from that point of view actually Industrial Designer: Well this this what we are going to t this is their motto like And we are we are not doing well on it Marketing: This is their strategy I m imagine we actually had some money invested in this and the amount that we invest is going to be proportional to the marks Might we might want to be a bit more skepible sceptical about this one Project Manager: What would you think yourself ? Marketing: I would say I mean it is it is not at all right ? In any way or shape or form Project Manager: Well it is kind of curved and we can make it yellow and that is pretty much banana like Marketing: the the yellow banana like thing is I think is Project Manager: Si it is got a curve to it Marketing: Right five Is that sound reasonable ? Project Manager: Am I do you think I am stretching the the use of the banana ? Industrial Designer: I will go with five Marketing: Five Kay so we have one two three four five six seven So five seven ten sixteen twenty one Which gives us an average of three It is well this would be in the middle So we it is it is not bad It is in the good section Project Manager: It is not bad and considering the do not pick the pen Marketing: Oops Sorry I am I am sorry Project Manager: Y oh and you have knocked batteries out Industrial Designer: S bad design that thing Project Manager: considering the price we had to get this in to have a positive you know even based on the four of us being heavily biased it was going to be quite hard to get anything standing out I would say possibly based on the the cost features Marketing: Even if we were to increase this entire thing by by seven we were to go down a grade to to four we would have to do I mean we did not we were not that kind of optimistic too optim overly optimistic You know like we did not we did not add we did not subtract a whole seven points from these things so I think we are definitely on the good bit Even if we gave this one seven and this one seven that is still only three extra points over seven You know it is User Interface: Mm Personally I think given that the product only replaces a single remote control Marketing: we did it w it was It was good User Interface: that you have already got are people really going to she will out twenty five Euros for something that is only marginally good ? Industrial Designer: Well it depends who your who is what the target people are like you would say maybe the fashion conscious Project Manager: Maybe it is been targeted Industrial Designer: women would be going oh look at that s cool it looks like a it is yellow looks like a banana it is cool it is got to look good in the sitting room Project Manager: Hide it in the fruit basket Industrial Designer: Rather than the LCD whereas more technical like like more people in with the latest technology it is good it is got an LCD screen s only got two buttons and a joystick So which which kind of people would be more likely to buy it ? Project Manager: Probably the people technologically They are usually the ones that buy pointless stuff Marketing: I mean my mum still has not learnt how to use text messaging on her phone and she is had it for a long time you know She uses it to make phone calls and that is it So I think if sh if my mum saw a remote control like this with only two buttons and a joystick I mean that will probably be the first one she decides not to buy you know She would be like is this a remote control I do not how do you use it and stuff like that So even if it is really user friendly to us but we are used to using menus all the time User Interface: Mmhmm I s I suppose one thing is that b because it is technically innovative for someone who is sort of technophobic the fact that it simply looks unfamiliar would be daunting Marketing: I think it is totally radical to have a remote control with no no numbered buttons But like radical good maybe

In the product evaluation, the team was satisfied with its success in reducing the number of unused buttons. The user interface was considered to be user-friendly enough. However, the team also admitted that there was still room for improvement on the location function, technological innovation, the material, as well as the fashion style of the remote control.

Marketing: Materials that people find pleasing Sponginess is what they really would have wanted apparently Project Manager: It is Do not blame them because of the way that we have minimalised the number of buttons and such Plastic it sucks But it is no worse than any of the other pl remote controls we have Marketing: That is true It is not a step backwards User Interface: Mmhmm I would s I I would give it a six to be honest Marketing: let us give it a six

The team had decided to replace the rubber with plastic due to the budget limit. When evaluating the material of the remote control, Marketing admitted that sponginess was what most users desired, which was the feel given by rubber. Project Manager agreed. However, Project Manager pointed out that a plastic remote control was no worse than other remote controls in the market, so it would not be a step-back at least.

Project Manager: Is it inspired by clothing fashion ? Marketing: But Th th they are referring to the fruit and veg thing Is this like a banana type colour ? Could we stretch no still it is not shaped like a banana is User Interface: That is kind of i Project Manager: It is kind o it User Interface: it will not be when it is been Marketing: Oh is that because it is flat ? What is what fruit or veg is flat ? User Interface: I I think s I I think this is not not particularly fruit and veggie Marketing: Or we might have to suffer badly for this one as well Project Manager: I mean it is probably more fruit and veg than most other things out there bar fruit and veg so what four ? Marketing: Four ? Oh that is it is very ambitious Project Manager: Is that being too generous ? User Interface: Mm I would I would I do not think fruit and veg is the sole criterion Is the sole criterion for being fashion fashionable or inspired by current fashions I would g I would rate I would rate this fairly highly from that point of view actually Industrial Designer: Well this this what we are going to t this is their motto like And we are we are not doing well on it

Marketing concluded from the market research that users expected the remote control to combine fruit and vegetable elements with its fashion design. User Interface disagreed with Marketing, for it was believed by User Interface that fruit and vegetable style was not the sole criterion for satisfactory fashion design of the remote control. Instead, User Interface implicated that all designs inspired by current fashions were likely to win the users over.

Kirsty Williams AM: Diolch yn fawr Siân As I have said it is a bit difficult to place myself in the mind of the previous Minister when this legislation was first envisaged and then taken through You will be aware that there were four main reasons for the introduction of the Bill : around regulation of institutions in Wales safeguarding the contribution made to public good arising from Welsh Governments financial support for the sector maintaining a focus on fair access and preserving and protecting the principle of institutional autonomy I think the evidence that has been received by the committee to date shows that there are different views about the effectiveness of whether all four strategic aims have been achieved I think those strategic aims are still really really important and certainly will underpin our thought process going forward but we have to recognise the higher education and research Bill across the border in England the implementation of new student support measures in Wales as well as the report that was done by Ellen Hazelkorn I think means it is appropriate that we move forward with different proposals not just regulation of the HE sector but the postcompulsory sector as a whole We will look to see what we can do to strengthen or whether there is more that we need to do to achieve those four objectives because I think those four objectives are still very very relevant But we have to have legislation now that is fit for the circumstances we currently find ourselves in and hopefully futureproofs us for how we want to see the sector develop in the future

Although highly challenged by the participants, Kirsty Williams AM argued that the Act had fulfilled the Government's objectives in regulating institutions, safeguarding contribution, managing fair access and protecting the principle of institutional autonomy. These strategic aims were still really important but in the new situation, it was required to recognise the higher education and research Bill across the border in England. In this case, to continue fulfilling its national outcomes, the Act should evolve by implementing new student support measures.

Sian Gwenllian AM: Do you feel perhaps that the legislation itself has not been strong enough and that you then have had to drive some of these objectives through the annual remit letter rather than through legislation and that is why the strengthening is required ? Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly I see the remit letter as a really really important way in which national priorities and the priorities of an elected Government can be clearly stated communicated to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales and then HEFCW use their powers to ensure that that happens So certainly I see the remit letter as being a very important mechanism for ensuring as I said that those national priorities are clearly articulated and then change happens Sian Gwenllian AM: Has the current legislation been framed around institutional autonomy so that it is not possible for institutions to fulfil any national outcomes and is that going to be an element of the new Bill ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well certainly the 2015 Act contains numerous provisions that protect universities privileges and autonomy And that is really important and those are principles that I am committed to in any legislation that I bring forward We will certainly be looking to see how we can carry those protections into the forthcoming Bill but at the same time we do have to ensure appropriate regulation and accountability of institutions for their public funding and the privileges that they enjoy And I think there are a number of ways in which that can happen We have a very positive working relationship with the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales and I am very fortunate to have a very positive working relationship with the sector The remit letters are a really important way in which we can lay out those national priorities I do not think there is anything in the legislation per se that prevents those national priorities being articulated and being acted upon Sian Gwenllian AM: I do not think that is what HEFCW has said in their evidence They have said that the Bill has been framed in a way where it is not possible for institutions to fulfil any requirements You are talking about the remit letter maybe you need to have that discussion there but in terms of the Bill itself you can not make them fulfil any national outcomes Should not there be a discussion looking to move in a direction where there are national outcomes being set through legislation because there is public money going into that ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well I do not know whether we need national outcomes through legislation because those national priorities potentially will change over time What is really important and what we will be seeking to do in the new legislation is look to move to a system of outcome agreements So there is a very clear expectation that the commission will have in regulating the sector and coordinating and funding the sector to create a system of outcome agreements where those outputs will reflect national priorities and that is one of the things that we have consulted on and will look to take forward in the new legislation Sian Gwenllian AM: That is clear enough What about private providers ? The Act or the Act as it stands makes it a requirement for a regulated institution to be a charity and that means it is not possible to regulate alternative private providers under the Act even though they can provide higher education in Wales What is your view on this and will the new legislation continue with the requirement of being a charity ? Kirsty Williams AM: So I think first of all it is important to make the distinction between the scale of private providers and what could be termed as unregulated providers in the Welsh system as opposed to the English system And I think that is a really important distinction to make So currently under the current legislation unregulated providers can only access Welsh Government student support if they are designated on a casebycase basis So we do have a circumstance where—and a process in place to manage this So we have a specific designation policy which is operated on our behalf by HEFCW Only six organisations were designated on a casebycase basis in the 201819 academic year so the scale here is small Three of those were further education colleges So when we talk about a private provider perhaps people would have a view of a private university but actually three of those were FE colleges which we would all be familiar with And the three private providers were the Centre for Alternative Technology the training arm of the Church in Wales and the Newport and District Group Training Association All three of those are actual charities So in order for their courses to be specifically designated the three crucial questions that those providers have to answer are : quality—is what they are providing to students of a good quality the financial viability of the institution again to try to protect the interests of the students who may find themselves embarking on a course in an institution that is not viable as well as their contribution to private—sorry not to private good—public good And we are considering how that part of the sector will be regulated in the forthcoming legislation But Huw I do not know if there is anything else to add ? Huw Morris: Well just to say that there are a very small number of private providers as the Minister has outlined and in comparison with England where I think the last figures said that there were between 300 and 400 private providers in England you get a sense of the differences that exist there And if you look at what happened over recent years it has been those small private providers across the UK who have been most financially challenged and a number of them have stopped their operations with consequences for the students So we have been keen to put students at the front of things to make sure that the institutions that they are enrolling with are strong and have good quality

The Act was considered that the legislation itself was not strong enough by Sian Gwenllian AM and Kirsty Williams AM agreed that remit letters were a really important way in which national priorities could be preserved. Moreover, it was stressed that it was important to make the distinction between the scale of private providers, and what could be termed as 'unregulated providers' in the Welsh system. In this case, they should be designated on a case-by-case basis and always be able to protect the interests of the students. Besides, Kirsty Williams AM pointed out that the government had not identified an urgent reason to designate different types of courses as qualifying courses for the purposes of a fee limit, but in fact, the regulation for each type of them did differ from each other.

Kirsty Williams AM: Of course the Act was introduced as a direct result of the changing scenario around finance and the different ways in which because of the reduction in HEFCWs budget the level of influence that HEFCW would be able to exert over institutions through the imposition of terms and conditions of funding— So the Act was introduced in part to address that shift in influence and the Act also has provided HEFCW with a range of new powers of intervention and sanctions in the case of noncompliance by institutions Personally I wholeheartedly believe that tertiary education providers should contribute to national goals and outcomes as part of what I would describe as a civic mission I am determined that any legislation that I bring forward and any commission that I establish will be empowered to enable that to happen through its regulatory and funding powers Of course the funding situation has shifted again now because of the introduction of what is commonly known as the Diamond reforms but our new system of student finance does again shift the parameters of influence that HEFCW or any new tertiary commission could have But as I said earlier it is not to say that institutions have had a free reign We have been able to use the remit letter and our relationship with HEFCW to progress agendas that we would want to see So for instance you will be aware in my remit letter I am concerned about issues around how people working in the sector are paid We have been able to successfully see all institutions sign up to becoming living wage employers all institutions sign up to the Welsh Governments code of ethical procurement So it is not to say that the Act has meant that we have had no influence but there are opportunities now because of the change in financial circumstances once again to look at that in any forthcoming legislation

To answer this question, Kirsty Williams AM first introduced the achievements that the new system of student finance did again shift the parameters of influence that HEFCW or any new tertiary commission could have in the different situations, as a direct result of the changing scenario. Moreover, it was a great success to see all institutions sign up to becoming living wage employers, all institutions sign up to the Welsh Government's code of ethical procurement.

Kirsty Williams AM: Well it is not something I wish I could do I think that we are doing it Selfpraise is no recommendation but because of the working relationship that we have I think we are seeing some success in using the remit letter to influence national outcomes So I have just talked about living wage we are also using our remit letter to drive transparency over senior leaders pay the gender pay within institutions For instance as part of this Governments commitment to improving mental health we have been able to use the remit letter and some funding to be able to drive change and some improvements in mental health in the higher education sector These are national priorities and we are acting upon them and we are using the multiple levers we have at the moment to engage in universities And I have to say universities have risen to that challenge and I am very grateful to them for doing that

Currently, the government planned to use the remit letter to drive transparency over senior leaders' pay, the gender pay gap within institutions. For instance, it had been a success to use the remit letter and some funding to drive change and some improvements in mental health in the higher education sector. To conclude, Kirsty Williams AM suggested that the new PCET reforms were aimed to create a legislative regime and a regulation regime that encouraged collaboration and co-operation across the sector.

Dawn Bowden AM: I think they were saying it was difficult to use for swift interventions—they found it a bit cumbersome They explained to us that they often take informal measures or actions in their role as regulator and they have explained that the small size of the sector enables good relationships to be developed How can such measures work in the tertiary education body when there clearly will be many more than the 10 providers ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well looking ahead to the new Bill I would want to see and be very keen to ensure that there are sufficiently flexible—did you use the word soft—and soft regulatory powers that the commission could exercise Those powers for instance could include the ability to offer advice and guidance rather than maybe punitive interventions and powers to undertake enhanced monitoring of institutions to ensure compliance with regulatory conditions So I would expect the commission to be able to have a series of abilities to intervene from the soft flexible type which is nonpunitive but actually allows people to go in and support institutions through to something that would be as I said more punitive if they felt that an institution was in danger of not providing quality or financial failure Hefin David AM: Can I just come in there on the point that was made ? The issue that seemed to me to come from HEFCW and from the universities is that the dial seems to have only three steps So rather than having a graduated series of actions that they can take it seems to step from—what did he call it—a meeting without coffee to— Kirsty Williams AM: That is a very HEFCW thing to say Hefin David AM: —potentially institutions going bankrupt and there do not seem to be many steps in between that I would invite you to say whether you would like to remedy that in future Kirsty Williams AM: I think as I said at the beginning of the session this is why this postlegislative scrutiny is useful because we can reflect on that feedback As I said I would expect to be able to ensure that the commission had a range of powers that could address—from that soft power and those early conversations to being able to as I said issue perhaps advice and guidance to an institution so there would be a more graduated escalation Huw is there anything else that I have missed out ? Huw Morris: Just to build on what the Minister has said there is a range of ways in which we interact with all institutions that are going to be in the tertiary sector and some of that is about providing information So HEFCW provides information—it sends around circulars it produces reports and it holds events There is staff management and leadership development activity which can create a culture amongst the leaders of institutions but also amongst their governing bodies to help them move in a particular direction We would hope that is in the direction of the civic university approach that the Minister has outlined We use those mechanisms and informal interactions with FE college principals with the workbased learning provider network with sixth forms and others and we would want to see I hope in the tertiary sector some alignment of those things When things go badly wrong there are a range of mechanisms I think what stands behind HEFCWs comments is that before we had a loanbased system of student finance there was a system of block grant allocations and conditions could be attached to those grant allocations by HEFCW I do not think we are going to be going back to that system in the foreseeable future because of the pressures on public finances—

Dawn Bowden AM challenged that informal measures or actions had been taken in their role as regulator, and Kirsty Williams AM explained that the commission was expected to be able to have a series of abilities to intervene, from the soft, flexible type, which was non-punitive but actually allowed people to participate in it. Meanwhile, Huw Morris suggested that specific mechanisms and informal interactions with FE college principals, with the work-based learning provider network, etc had been used to hopefully achieve some alignment in the tertiary sector. Also, as a loan-based system of student finance, a system of block grant allocations and conditions could be attached to those grant allocations by HEFCW when things went wrong.

Huw Morris: In the Hazelkorn review there is quite a lot of focus on that and looking to learn from other national systems where outcome agreements provide a broader measure of the range of things the institutions do and a mechanism for tracking how things are done through the provision of information back to the institution to help them know how they are doing And potentially in some of these other institutions funding is linked to some of those things Kirsty Williams AM: And of course what always has to be— What we have to strike the balance of as well is at what point those powers seem to be—and the ability to direct—interfering with the principle of autonomy within an institution So there is that balance to be struck is not there about creating a regulatory regime which I am very keen and the Act attempted to do which was to enshrine institutional autonomy and that is really really important but also a regulatory regime the ability to influence and to develop and to deliver national outcomes and the power to intervene in that sector which you know better than probably anybody else in this room guards that institutional autonomy very very very dear indeed And that is the balance that we need to try and strike as we go forward with the new commission proposals Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair I think in terms of the levels of measures—and I understand what you are saying—but I think what HEFCW were saying was that they try as far as possible to use informal measures and they are able to do that because of the size of the sector—just 10 institutions to work with The post16 sector however many we are talking—50 plus providers—it is probably going to be less likely that they would be able to have that sort of relationship with the leaders in those institutions So the informal measures might not be as prevalent as they are currently possibly Kirsty Williams AM: Yes but also what is incumbent upon me as the Minister is to ensure that the commission is set up in a way where it can have that relationship with the sector because what is really important to remember is that HEFCW will be replaced We are not asking HEFCW suddenly to go from regulating a small number of institutions to suddenly regulating 50 We will be creating a commission that will be structured in such a way that it can have those relationships Because of course whilst HEFCW will face changes our relationship with and how we manage the FE sector and the apprenticeship sector will also shift So the point is that we need to create a commission that will still be able to be close to the sector close enough to be able to provide that soft regulation those really important relationships in a way— So it has to be created in such a way and resourced in such a way that it allows that to happen and that is my intention Dawn Bowden AM: Well then of course the University of Wales said to us that they felt that there was the potential for HEFCW to issue directions enforceable by injunction to remedy minor matters So I think from what you are saying you would not be expecting that to happen Just the fact that they have got the power does not necessarily mean that that is what they are going to do Kirsty Williams AM: Well I think it is important to recognise when HEFCW can enforce its directions by way of an injunction If they were to do that because a university was breaking fee limits or because there were real questions about the quality of the provision or whether a university was not complying with the financial management code—personally I would not describe those as minor matters as a Minister if we had an institution that was significantly falling down on quality and HEFCW were using these powers to intervene I would not describe that as a minor matter Dawn Bowden AM: No That is fair enough And actually on that point we have had some recent highprofile issues in Swansea and Trinity St David and HEFCW still have not yet used their powers of intervention Do you find that surprising ? Kirsty Williams AM: I think what they have done in these circumstances is perhaps used their ability to support those institutions through what undoubtedly have been challenging times Given the fact that there are ongoing legal processes attached to Swansea University I think it would not be appropriate for me to comment any further because there are still matters in train with regard to that institution But clearly our expectation on HEFCW is to ensure that they are using their powers to support those universities and I would expect them if they felt necessary to use the full remit of their powers if they felt that that was what they needed to do Now I have to trust their professional judgment that that has not been necessary to date but our expectation is that they would do that if they felt it was necessary

Huw Morris started by introducing the focus on learning from other nations to track the information flows and help the universities in return. Meanwhile, Kirsty Williams AM suggested a balance to be achieved by each part of the participants. However, Dawn Bowden AM questioned about HEFCW's use of informal measures which might not be as prevalent as they currently are. Kirsty Williams AM answered that it should be remembered that HEFCW would surely be replaced, and a more flexible way would be adopted to control the financial codes of universities to assure the quality of the provision.

Kirsty Williams AM: Well no not in the sense that they have brought them to me to talk about specifically From my perspective fee and access plans are focused very much on inputs and really I would like to think about outputs and outcomes more importantly—what are the outcomes of the fee and access plan not necessarily just how much money has been spent on them I think certainly to really understand the success of the fee and access plan you have to question whether an annual basis is an appropriate timescale for a university to be working to and whether we could have something that was focused over a longer period of time Because when you think about it you write the plan and then you are into it and then the next thing you know you are writing your next years plan So I think there is an opportunity there to look to restructure So do I see a place for fee and access plans going forward as part of our outcome agreements ? Yes I do Can we do them differently to make them more effective ? Yes I think we can Hefin David AM: So why would introducing outcome agreements make them work any better ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well I think they are going to be a part of an outcome agreement—part of that wider expectation So fee and access plans are there to address an issue around primarily changing the nature of people who go to university and making sure that nobody is put off from pursuing that So that is part of a wider piece of work that I would want to see as an outcome agreement But as I said I think looking at outcomes for students and outcomes of that activity rather than the inputs of the activity over a longer period of time is probably a more effective way of doing it I think it is still— In a way it is difficult to make a final judgment on whether fee and access plans in their current format have worked because we need to know what will happen to those students in the future But undoubtedly despite the limitations of them I do think we are making progress in terms of access but I do not think we can necessarily point to the fee and access plans as being the driver for some of those improvements Hefin David AM: No I appreciate that and some of the things you are saying reflect some of the discussions we have had but what was clear is that the process and bureaucratic nature of the way you present fee and access plans does not work particularly given the fact that four years on early fee and access plans are still being evaluated There is a real problem there So what you are saying—can I just pin down what you are saying—is that we may be moving away from yearly fee and access plans to something that is longer term and outcome focused Kirsty Williams AM: That is my preference So I think the principle—I would like to think we can all agree around the principle of what a fee and access plan is hoping to achieve but I think there are better ways of doing it and I think we should take the opportunity of reform to look at how we can do it better Hefin David AM: So with that in mind I think we are talking about the future of the Bill the consultation on the PCET reforms closed in summer 2018—with these important issues in mind and things that are currently ongoing have you had further dialogue since then with key stakeholders like for example Universities Wales and others ? Kirsty Williams AM: On the Bill or on fee and access plans in particular ? Hefin David AM: I am thinking about fee and access plans as an issue that suggests that there is a need for deep consultation so with that in mind with things like that have you had further discussion ? Kirsty Williams AM: Oh my goodness me civil servants in the department are constantly in discussion with a range of stakeholders as we continue to develop legislative proposals I meet on a regular basis with both HEFCW—I meet separately with the vicechancellors and I have been very keen to develop a stronger working relationship with chairs and perhaps we will come on to issues of governance later So we are constantly discussing with stakeholders all options for change— Hefin David AM: I suppose the message I am getting as chair of the crossparty group on higher education is that there could still be more direct consultation with stakeholders That is the message I have received Now I have got no evidence to say it has or has not happened but that is the message I have received Huw Morris: If I could just chip in for a moment the Ministers outlined that there is very extensive ongoing communication both ways with the sector but the challenge of preparing a Bill is the balancing act between gathering in information—and there is been a general consultation process and a technical consultation process—and wanting to make sure that the Bill that is laid next year has not been discussed with anybody else before it comes to be considered by the Senedd So the broad principles have been discussed but specific details of what goes into a Bill or policy instructions that inform a Bill have not been the subject of consultation—

To answer Hefin David AM's question, Kirsty Williams AM first stressed that the success of the fee and access plan relied on the understanding of whether an annual basis was an appropriate timescale for a university to be working to, and whether a long period was suitable for the Act. Sometimes it was hard to make a final judgment since the futures of the students were unpredictable but the fee and access plans could always be one of the drivers for some of the improvements. In the meantime, constant efforts had been put into communications with a range of stakeholders to continue developing legislative proposals to assure the fee.

Hefin David AM: I will move on to managing risk if that is The feedback from Universities Wales suggests that with the outcome of the 2015 Act institutions with the strongest track records are more highly regulated than the riskier private alternative providers Do you think that Act has struck the right balance ? Kirsty Williams AM: I think the Act has created a system where the level of regulation is proportional to the amount and the nature of public moneys received by institutions Hefin David AM: Those were the words used by Universities Wales— Kirsty Williams AM: No no I am not disagreeing My view is : I believe that the Act has struck that proportionality When you look at public moneys going into institutions I think that the Act is proportionate myself Hefin David AM: So do you think it is in the interests of students then to be at private institutions— ? I have seen those private institutions and how they operate I have seen them at firsthand—they do not operate to the same rigour as public institutions and they are less regulated Huw Morris: Can I just chip in ? I think that the category private covers quite a wide range of things and many private institutions are also charities We do not have the presence of some of the large private charities that are present in other countries but Stanford and Harvard would count as private universities So I think we need to be careful in focusing on the inherent quality of things We have made charitable status a key reference point in the operation of things at the moment I think there has been attention drawn to some private providers particularly in England but I would not tar them all with the same brush necessarily Hefin David AM: But they fall outwith—if they are not charitable providers running validated courses for example they fall outwith the strength of regulation that is currently in place on the universities in Wales Kirsty Williams AM: So we would regulate them on a coursebycourse basis so it is back to the issue of proportionality is not it ? So you are automatically regulated for all your courses if you are one of our main universities but there is a process that is run by HEFCW on a coursebycourse basis to validate alternative providers And as Huw said I think we should recognise the nature of that is very very very small in Wales and there is a process to ensure quality provision If there were concerns about the quality of that provision that course could be deregulated Hefin David AM: And I am aware that there are a small number of private institutions in Wales but are you concerned that in the future the landscape may change particularly with the opportunity to recruit more parttime students ? Do you think the landscape may change in future and that the 2015 Act as designed was not equipped for that and will the next Act then be equipped ? Kirsty Williams AM: I think it is right to say that maybe the previous legislation did not futureproof for changes I am not anticipating a mass influx of alternative providers in the sense that we have seen across the border but we will need to ensure that the new commission has powers to regulate and to futureproof

Hefin David AM questioned about the right balance between institutions with the strongest track records that were more highly regulated and those riskier private alternative providers. Kirsty Williams AM argued that more attention should be paid to focus on the inherent quality of those charitable status which was regarded as a key reference point in the operation. Although there were some concerns of some private providers, particularly in England, they should not be treated the same. In this case, the government would regulate them on a course-by-course basis. Moreover, quality provision should be included and alternative providers would be given more attention.

Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you We had some evidence from the University and College Union that were concerned about the governance of universities actually as being a bigger problem than the regulatory framework in many ways Can you tell us perhaps how the HE Act addresses the issue of poor governance or is it really just limited to responding to the symptoms rather than the poor governance itself ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well I think it is true and fair to say that the Bill does not directly address issues around governance in the sector HEFCW do have wellestablished assurance practices in relation to governance that would predate the 2015 legislation But governance—we have talked briefly about some recent history within the sector that I think has certainly brought the issue of governance to the fore once again and I think there are two important things that we are trying to do about that in the current time prior to any legislative changes The first is as I just said to Hefin I have sought to have a more direct relationship with chairs of universities and have that onetoone relationship with them not in the presence of their vicechancellors I challenge them they challenge me and I think we have deliberately tried to establish a regular routine of that since I took office And you will be aware that collaboratively—and I am glad that this has been done in this way because I think if you do it this way we are more likely to get some success and change—Universities Wales and HEFCW have worked together to undertake an independent review of governance And I think it is really important that parties have come together to recognise the issues and to agree to take action because I think if we would have tried to impose something we would have more resistance So there is an independent review going on at the moment— Dawn Bowden AM: Is that the risk review process in— ? Kirsty Williams AM: That is the Gillian Camm review This is a review that as I said Universities Wales and HEFCW have agreed to do together It is chaired by Gillian Camm who is the chair of the Leadership Foundation for Higher Education and she is doing an independent review to advise on changes to governance And I welcome that I am very supportive of that and that is happening at the moment As I said I am glad that there is been recognition from within the sector themselves that they need to make sure and they need to give confidence that governance arrangements are what they should be Dawn Bowden AM: So is that something that you are going to be taking into the PCET Bill do you think ? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes absolutely We are exploring how the Bill could introduce a regulatory condition in respect of good governance and a commission would be able to set expectations with regard to good governance I think one of the concerns for me—and I know that this is a concern that is shared by the UCU—is the diversity of governance and who finds themselves in these really important positions HEFCW do not hold figures on it but from an approximation that I have asked officials to do for me currently in the universities that we have I would say that men make up around 56 per cent of membership of universities governing bodies women—44 per cent BME—as low as 4 per cent Of course in individual institutions it does vary but I think there is some way to go to making sure that our governing bodies are diverse and that there is an opportunity to look at the student voice in governance going forward the staff voice in governance going forward and these are things that we hope to have discussions on whilst we bring the legislation forward Dawn Bowden AM: But also I guess—sorry Chair—a greater understanding that anybody going in to become a governor of one of these institutions has a greater understanding of what is expected of them Do you think that that is a that needs to be plugged ? Huw Morris: One of the things that HEFCW have led on with AdvanceHE the body that encompasses the leadership foundation is a development programme for governing bodies and that started earlier—well it is been going on for some time but it was recommenced earlier this year with a session for all of the chairs of universities in Wales And I believe—I will need to check this—that there are plans to engage with each of the governing bodies because as you rightly say and this lies behind a lot of what we have been discussing the activities of these institutions have become much more complex over recent years and so there is a need for that training and development and understanding also of the fastchanging nature of that activity

Kirsty Williams AM first admitted that it was true that the Bill did not directly address issues around governance in the sector. However, establishing a more direct relationship with chairs of universities, especially one-to-one relationships with them, had been attached much importance and it was crucial to help the government understand each aspect of issues in universities. Moreover, ways to make sure that the governing bodies were diverse and it was able to include both student voice as well as the staff voice in governance going forward would be discussed in the future. Kirsty Williams AM stressed that there were plans to engage with each of the governing bodies since the situation was getting far more complex.

Sian Gwenllian AM: We have heard evidence regarding the difficulties caused by HEFCW having a legal duty to qualityassure all the provision in two further education colleges That sounds to me like some kind of an anomaly or an unintended consequence of the Act Could you clarify that and explain the situation in that instance ?

Sian Gwenllian AM argued that there was evidence regarding the difficulties caused by HEFCW having a legal duty to quality-assure all the provisions in two further education colleges. This process was regarded as an anomaly or an unintended consequence of the Act. Sian Gwenllian AM wanted Kirsty Williams AM to explain the situation in that instance and further methods to assure governing qualities.

Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you My understanding—and as I said it is a bit difficult because I can not put myself into the thought process of the Minister at the time and what his expectation was But certainly my understanding is that it was not an unintended consequence it was an expectation built into the Act that HEFCW and Estyn would work together on these matters The Act built on what were the quality assessment arrangements in the 1992 Act which required HEFCW to secure arrangements for the assessment of the quality of education provided by funding institutions So as a consequence of that approach HEFCWs quality assessment duty currently encompasses all the education provided by or on behalf of a regulated institution So it is complicated and Huw can help me out here if I get it wrong but my understanding is that it was not an unintended consequence that was the expectation of what would happen when the legislation was passed Huw Huw Morris: I would completely agree with what the Minister has said Kirsty Williams AM: As always Laughter At least in public Huw Huw Morris: There is the expectation that they will work together in concert There is a lot of joint operation I think going forward we would expect that to continue We are looking to the new Bill to try to make that clearer That was a theme in the general and technical consultation exercises that we have engaged in over the last couple of years

Kirsty Williams AM first explained that it was a bit difficult to put herself in the position of the former Minister but it was clear that it should not be intended. However, she explained that the Act was built on what were the quality assessment arrangements in the 1992 Act, which required HEFCW to secure arrangements for the assessment of the quality of education provided by funding institutions. So, as a consequence of that approach, HEFCW's quality assessment duty currently encompassesed all the education provided by or on behalf of a regulated institution. Huw Morris also helped to explain that a lot of joint operation was required during the process and the new Bill would try to make that clearer.

Kirsty Williams AM: I am aware and we have listened to stakeholders concerns regarding proposals to introduce a single quality assessment body As I said we recognise that stakeholders are broadly content with the current situation with regard to Estyn and QAA So we have been listening to that following the technical consultation and policy officials are working through options in regard to ensuring what quality assurance will look like in the commission As I said I do not want to preempt bringing forward the legislation but the principles underlying any assurance regime would need to be coherent need to be effective and need to be comprehensive What we are also very clear about and I think it is important to say is that any quality framework covering higher education will be compatible with ENQA which I think is really really important going forward And by an extension of that it would be compatible with current UKwide baseline standards So we do not want to create specific problems for the HE sector in Wales Sian Gwenllian AM: But you have touched on this there is substantial concern in the sector about this offer to move to one assurance body for the tertiary sector One vicechancellor has told us : Kirsty Williams AM: Well sometimes I think it is necessary maybe to cause a stir If we do not change things it does beg the point of Why are any of us here if we are not here to sometimes move things forward ? And change is challenging always but I would like to reassure all of our vicechancellors and our sector as a whole that we are not going to do anything in the quality assurance regime that would risk what is the very high reputation and standards that Welsh universities currently comply with or would set them apart from institutions across the border or in a European context Huw Huw Morris: I agree obviously I think the fear is misplaced but coming back to another theme in the conversation so far about futureproofing what we are seeing in the figures that the Minister outlined to you earlier about the growth in postgraduate and the growth in parttime is the desire of a greater number of people at different ages to engage in higher and tertiary education and quite often that will be in a workplace or it will be in a nonconventional institutional setting Historically the quality assurance regimes for workbased learning have tended to sit with Estyn the assurance regimes for the universities have sat with the QAA There is quite a lot of learning that all sides have got to engage in if we are going to be able to have continued high quality in these new areas that are being explored That is an issue not just in Wales The Augar report which was published earlier this year in England drew attention to this as being a major problem in the relationship over the border between Ofsted and the QAA So I think we are not looking to impose one institution on anybody but we are looking to encourage greater synergy in the ways in which quality assurance and enhancement is undertaken in those different areas of activity

Kirsty Williams AM shared that the government had listened to stakeholders' concerns regarding proposals to introduce a single quality assessment body. And she stressed that the principles underlying any assurance regime would need to be coherent, effective and comprehensive. Besides, the quality framework should cover higher education to make it compatible with ENQA, which was considered as highly important going forward, since it would be compatible with current UK-wide baseline standards to avoid specific problems for the HE sector in Wales. Although it might cause a stir, a change must be made in the new situation. Huw Morris also suggested that greater synergy would be encouraged in the ways in which quality assurance and enhancement was undertaken in different areas of activity.

Professor B: Well but we never also we ve also never done it Postdoc A: This is the first cycle There are bound to be some glitches the first time through Professor B: So And and I m sorry responding without having much knowledge but the thing is I am like one of these people who gets a gazillion mails and and stuff comes in as Grad F: Well and that s exactly why I did it the way I did it which is the default is if you do nothing we are going to release it Because you know I have my pause stack of emails of to d to be done that you know fifty or sixty long and the ones at the top I m never going to get to PhD C: Move them to the bottom Professor B: So so the only thing we are missing is is some way to respond to easily to say `` OK go ahead `` or something Grad F: right So i this is going to mean PhD C: Just re mail them to yourself and then they are at the bottom Grad F: That s actually definitely a good point The m email does not specify that you can just reply to the email as op as opposed to going to the form Postdoc A: And it also does not give a a specific I did not think of it S I think it s a good idea an ex explicit time by which this will be considered definite And and it has to be a time earlier than that endpoint PhD H: This I ve seen this recently I got email and it i if I use a MIME capable mail reader it actually says you know click on this button to confirm receipt pause of the of the mail Grad D: It s like certified mail Grad F: A lot of mailers support return receipt But it does not confirm that they ve read it PhD H: No no no This is different This is not So I I know you can tell you know the mail delivery agent to to confirm that the mail was delivered to your mailbox But but no This was different Ins in the mail there was a th there was a button that when you clicked on it it would send you know a actual acknowledgement to the sender that you had actually looked at the mail Grad F: Oh Unfor we could do that But I hate that PhD H: But it o but it only works for you know MIME capable you know if you use Netscape or something like that for your n PhD E: You might as well just respond to the mail Professor B: And we actually need a third thing It s not that you ve looked at it it s that you ve looked at it and and and agree with one of the possible actions PhD H: No no You can do that You know you can put this button anywhere you want Professor B: Oh ? Oh I see PhD H: and you can put it the bottom of the message and say `` here by you know by clicking on this I I agree you know I acknowledge `` Professor B: That i i my first born children are yours and Grad F: Well I could put a URL in there without any difficulty and pause even pretty simple MIME readers can do that So Postdoc A: But why should not they just pause email back ? I do not see there s a problem It s very nice I I like the high tech aspect of it PhD H: No no no I actually do not I m just saying that Grad F: Well I cuz I use a text mail reader PhD H: if ev but I m PhD E: Do not you use VI for your mai ? Professor B: Wow That s that s my guy Alright Grad F: You you read email pause in VI ? PhD H: So I i There s these logos pause that you can put at the bottom of your web page like `` powered by VI `` Grad F: You could put wed bugs in the email PhD E: Like there were three meetings this time or so or how many ? Six ? But no of different people So I guess if you are in both these types of meetings you would have a lot But How I mean it also depends on how many Like if we release this time it s a fairly small number of meetings but what if we release like twenty five meetings to people ? In th Grad F: Well what my s expectation is is that we will send out one of these emails pause every time a meeting has been checked and is ready PhD E: I do not know Oh Oh OK So this time was just the first chunk OK Grad F: So Tha that was my intention It s just that we just happened to have a bunch all at once PhD E: Well that s a good idea Grad F: I mean maybe Is that pause the way it s going to be you think Jane ?

The team decided to release their data on July 15th, but they still wanted to give people time to bleep things from the transcripts. There was skepticism that they could actually reach out to people and get everyone's consent that they were okay with whatever was being released.

Professor B: It well it well you are right Sometimes somebody will be pause away and you know there s for any length of time that you choose pause there is some person sometime who will not pause end up reading it That s it s you know just a certain risk to take PhD H: S so maybe when Am I on by the way ? Grad F: I do not know You should be PhD H: Oh Hello ? Hello ? Grad F: You should be channel B PhD H: Oh OK Alright So The Maybe we should say in w you know when the whole thing starts when they sign the the agreement that you know specify exactly what you know how how they will be contacted and they can you know they can be asked to give a phone number and an email address or both And then Postdoc A: We did that I I believe PhD H: So A And then you know say very clearly that if they do not if we do not hear from them you know as Morgan suggested by a certain time or after a certain period after we contact them that is implicitly giving their agreement Grad F: Well they ve already signed a form PhD E: And nobody nobody really reads it anyway Grad F: So And the s and the form was approved by Human Subjects PhD H: Well if that s i tha if that s already if Grad F: so eh that s going to be a little hard to modify Postdoc A: Well the form Well the form does not say if you know `` if you do not respond by X number of days or X number of weeks `` PhD H: I see Oh OK So what does it say about the the the process of of y the review process ? Postdoc A: It does not have a time limit That you will be provided access to the transcripts and then allowed to pause remove things that you would like to remove before it goes to the general larger audience Grad F: You can read what you already signed PhD E: I guess when I pause read it I m not as diligent as Chuck but I had the feeling I should probably respond and tell Adam like `` I got this and I will do it by this date and if you do not hear from me by then `` You know in other words responding to your email pause once right away saying `` as soon as you get this could you please respond `` And then if you if the person thinks they will need more time because they are out of town or whatever they can tell you at that point ? Because Grad F: Oh I just I did not want to do that because I do not want to have a discussion with every person pause if I can avoid it So what I wanted to do was just send it out and say `` on the fifteenth the data is released if you want to do something about it do something about it but that s it `` Postdoc A: I I kind of like this PhD E: OK So we are assuming that PhD H: Well that s that would be great if but you should probably have a pause legal person look at this and pause make sure it s OK Because if you if you do this and you then there s a dispute later and some you know someone who understands these matters concludes that they did not have you know enough opportunity to actually exercise their their right PhD E: Or they they might never have gotten the email because although they signed this they do not know by which date to expect your email And so pause someone whose machine is down or whatever I mean we have no in internally we know that people are there Grad F: Well OK l Let me Let me reverse this PhD E: but we have no confirmation that they got the mail Grad F: So let s say someone I send this out and someone does not respond Do we delete every meeting that they were in ? I do not think so PhD E: It we are hoping that does not happen but that s why there s such a thing as registered mail Grad F: That will absolutely happen Because people do not read their email or they will read and say `` I do not care about that I m not going to delete anything `` and they don just will not reply to it PhD H: Maybe do we have mailing addresses for these people ? Grad F: No We have what they put on the speaker form which was just generic contact information Postdoc A: But the ones that we are dealing with now are all local except the ones who I mean we we are totally in contact with all the ones in those two groups So maybe I you know that s not that many people and if I if i i there is an advantage to having them admit and if I can help with with processing that I will It s it s there is an advantage to having them be on record as having received the mail and indicating Grad F: I mean I thought we had discussed this like a year ago And so it seems like this is a little odd for it to be coming up yet again Postdoc A: You are right Well I you know But sometimes Professor B: Well we we have not experienced it before PhD E: You will either wonder pause at the beginning or you will wonder at the end Postdoc A: Need to get it right PhD E: I mean there s no way to get around I It s pretty much the same am amount of work except for an additional email just saying they got the email And maybe it s better legally to wonder before you know a little bit earlier than Postdoc A: It s much easier to explain pause this way Grad F: OK Well why do not you talk pause t Postdoc A: T t to have it on record Grad F: Morgan can you talk to our lawyer about it and find out what the status is on this ? Cuz I do not want to do something that we do not need to Because what I m telling you people will not respond to the email No matter what you do you there are going to be people who pause you are going to have to make a lot of effort to get in contact with Postdoc A: Well then we make the effort Grad D: I mean i it s k Grad F: And do we want to spend that effort ? Grad D: It s kind of like signing up for a mailing list They have opt in and opt out And there are two different ways I mean and either way works probably I mean Postdoc A: Except I really think in this case I I m agr I agree with Liz that we need to be pause in the clear and not have to after the fact say `` oh but I assumed `` and `` oh I m sorry that your email address was just accumulating mail without notifying you `` you know Professor B: If this is a purely administrative task we can actually have administration do it But the thing is that you know I I I think without going through a whole expensive thing with our lawyers from my previous conversations with them my my sense very pause much is that we would want something on record pause as indicating that they actually were aware of this Grad F: Well we had talked about this before and I thought that we had even gone by the lawyers asking about that and they said you have to s they ve already signed away the f with that form that they ve already signed once Postdoc A: I do not remember that this issue of pause the time period allowed for response was ever covered Professor B: We never really talked about that PhD E: Or the date at which they would be receiving the email from you Postdoc A: Or or how they would indicate PhD E: They probably forgot all about it Professor B: We certainly did not talk about with them at all about the manner of them being made the materials available PhD H: We do it like with these Professor B: That was something that was sort of just within our implementation PhD H: We can use it we can use a a ploy like they use to you know that when they serve like comment you know like dead beat dads they they they make it look like they won something in the lottery and then they open the envelope and that Right ? Because and then the the the the thing is served So you just make it you know `` oh you won you know go to this web site and you ve you are `` PhD E: That s why you never open these things that come in the mail Grad F: Well it s just we ve gone from one extreme to the other where at one point a few months ago Morgan was you were saying let s not do anything PhD H: Right Right No it I it might Postdoc A: Well it does not matter PhD H: i i it it might well be the case Grad F: and now we are we are saying we have to follow up each person and get a signature ? I mean what are we going to doing here ? PhD H: It might well be the case that that this is perfectly you know this is enough to give us a basis t to just eh assume their consent if they do not reply But I m not you know me not being a lawyer I would not just want to do that without pause having the the expert opinion on that Postdoc A: And how many people ? Al altogether we ve got twenty people These people are people who read their email almost all the time Grad F: Then I think we had better find out so that we can find a Professor B: Let me look at this again Postdoc A: I I really do not see that it s a problem I I think that it s a common courtesy to ask them to expect for them to be able to have comment us try to contact them you just in case they had not gotten their email I think they would appreciate it Professor B: My Adam my my view before was about pause the nature of what was of the presentation of of how pause my my the things that we are questioning were along the lines of how easy h how m how much implication would there be that it s likely you are going to be changing something as opposed to That was the kind of dispute I was making before But the attorneys I I can guarantee you the attorneys will always come back with and we have to decide how stringent we want to be in these things but they will always come back with saying that you need to you want to have someth some paper trail or which includes electronic trail that they have in fact pause O K would it So I think that if you f i if pause we send the email as you have and if there s half the people say who do not respond pause at all by you know some period of time we can just make a list of these people and hand it to you know just give it to me and I will hand it to administrative staff or whatever and they will just call them up and say you know `` have you Is is this OK ? And would you please mail you know mail Adam that it is if i if it you know is or not `` So you know we can we can do that PhD E: The other thing that there s a psychological effect that at least for most people that if they ve responded to your email saying `` yes I will do it `` or `` yes I got your email `` they are more likely to actually do it comment pause later pause than to just ignore it And of course we do not want them to bleep things out but it it s a little bit better if we are getting the their final response once they ve answered you once than if they never answer you would comment at al at all That s how these mailing houses work So I mean it s not completely lost work because it might benefit us in terms of getting pause responses You know an official OK from somebody pause is better than no answer even if they responded that they got your email And they are probably more likely to do that once they ve responded that they got the email Postdoc A: I also think they would just simply appreciate it I think it s a good a good way of of fostering goodwill among our subjects Well our participants Professor B: I think the main thing is I mean what lawyers do is they always look at worst cases So they s so so Tha that s what they are paid to do And so it is certainly possible that somebody s server would be down or something and they would not actually hear from us and then they find this thing is in there and we ve already distributed it to someone So what it says in there in fact is that they will be given an opportunity to blah blah blah but if in fact if we sent them something or we thought we sent them something but they did not actually receive it for some reason then we have not given them that Grad F: Well so how far do we have to go ? Do we need to get someone s signature ? Or is email enough ? Professor B: I i i them email is enough Grad F: Do we have to have it notarized ? I mean OK Professor B: I mean I ve been through this I mean I m not a lawyer but I ve been through these things a f things f like this a few times with lawyers now so I I I I m pretty comfortable with that PhD C: Do you track when people log in to look at the ? Grad F: If they submit the form I get it If they do not submit the form it goes in the general web log But that s not sufficient Right ? Cuz if someone just visits the web site that does not pause imply anything in particular PhD C: Except that you know they got the mail Postdoc A: I I could get you on the notify list if you want me to Grad F: I m already on it Postdoc A: For that directory ? OK great Professor B: So again hopefully this should not be quite as odious a problem either way in any of the extremes we ve talked about because we are talking a pretty small pause number of people Grad F: W For this set I m not worried because pause we basically know everyone on it You know they are all more or less here or it s it s Eric and Dan and so on But for some of the others you are talking about visitors who are pause gone from ICSI whose email addresses may or may not work and So what are we going to do when we run into someone that we can not get in touch with ? Postdoc A: I do not think They are so recent these visitors I and and I they are also so They are prominent enough that they are easy to find through I I mean I I w I will be able to if you have any trouble finding them I really think I could find them Professor B: Cuz it what it what it really does promise here is that we will ask their permission and I think you know if you go into a room and close the door and and ask their permission and they are not there it does not seem comment that that s the intent of meaning here So Grad F: Well the qu the question is just whether how active it has to be I mean because they they filled out a contact information and that s where I m sending the information And so far everyone has done email There is not anyone who did any other contact method Professor B: Well the way ICSI goes people who were here ten years ago still have acc have forwards to other accounts and so on So it s unusual that that they Grad F: So my original impression was that that was sufficient that if they give us contact information and that contact information is not accurate that pause we fulfilled our burden PhD E: Then they just come back PhD C: All my files were still here Professor B: So if we get to a boundary case like that then maybe I will call the attorney about it But you know hopefully we will not need to Postdoc A: I d I just do not think we will For all the reasons that we ve discussed Professor B: So we will we will see if we do or not Grad F: Yep And we will see how many people respond to that email So far two people have Professor B: I think very few people will and and and you know people people see long emails about things that they do not think is going to be high priority they typically do not do not read it or half read it Postdoc A: I I did not anticipate this so I that s why I did not give this comment and it I this discussion has made me think it might be nice to have a follow up email within the next couple of days saying `` by the way you know we want to hear back from you by X date and please `` and then add what Liz said `` please respond to please indicate you received this mail `` Professor B: or e well maybe even additionally `` Even if you ve decided you have no changes you would like to make if you could tell us that `` Grad F: Respond to the email comment Yep Postdoc A: Mm It is the first time through the cycle PhD E: Right That would that would definitely work on me You know it makes you feel m like if you were going to p if you are predicting that you might not answer you have a chance now to say that Whereas I I mean I would be much more likely myself given all my email t to respond at that point saying `` you know what I m probably not going to get to it `` or whatever rather than just having seen the email thinking I might get to it and never really pushing myself to actually do it until it s too late PhD C: I was I was thinking that it also pause let us them know that they do not have to go to the page to pause accept this PhD E: Right R Right That s true PhD C: I mean I I So that way they could they can see from that email that if they just write back and say `` I got it no changes `` they are off the hook They do not have to go to the web page Professor B: I mean the other thing I ve learned from dealing with dealing with people sending in reviews and so forth is if you say `` you ve got three months to do this review `` people do it you know two and seven eighths months from now If you say `` you ve got three weeks to do this review `` they do do it you know two and seven eighths weeks from now they do the review And So if we make it pause a little less time I do not think it will be that much Grad F: Well and also if we want it ready by the fifteenth that means we better give them deadline of the first if we have any prayer of actually getting everyone to respond in time Professor B: There s the responding part and there s also what if I mean I hope this does not happen what if there are a bunch of deletions that have to get put in and changes ? Then we actually have to deal with that if we want it to Postdoc A: By the way has has Jeremy signed the form ? Grad F: oh my god ! I had not thought about that That for every meeting any meeting which has any bleeps in it we need yet another copy of Grad D: Can not you just do that channel ? PhD C: Oh no We have to do PhD E: You have to do all of them Grad F: You need all the channels PhD C: Do you have to do the other close talking ? PhD E: as well as all of these You have to do all You could just do it in that time period though Grad F: Yes Absolutely There s a lot of cross talk PhD E: but I guess it s a pain Grad F: Well but you have to copy the whole file Right ? Because we are going to be releasing the whole file Postdoc A: Well I you know I think at a certain point that copy that has the deletions will become the master copy Grad F: It s just I hate deleting any data So I I do not want I really would rather make a copy of it rather than bleep it out Professor B: Are you del are you bleeping it by adding ? Grad F: and then Overlapping So it s it s exactly a censor bleep So what I really think is `` bleep `` Professor B: I I I I understand but is is it summing signals Grad F: and then I want to Professor B: or do you pause delete the old one and put the new one in ? Grad F: I delete the old one put the new one in There s nothing left of the original signal Professor B: Oh Cuz if you were summing you could No But anyway Grad F: It would be qui quite easy to get it back again Postdoc A: But And then w I was going to say also that the they do not have to stay on the system as you know PhD E: Then someday we can sell the pause unedited versions Postdoc A: cuz cuz the the ones Once it s been successfully bleeped can not you rely on the ? PhD C: Or pause we will tell people the frequency of the beep and then they could subtract the beep out Postdoc A: Can not you rely on the archiving to preserve the older version ? Grad D: It would not be that hard to hide it Grad F: that s true Yep that s true PhD E: See this is good I wanted to create some pause side conversations in these meetings Professor B: You could encrypt it you know with a with a two hundred bit thousand bit Grad D: You can use spread spectrum PhD E: Cuz we do not have enough asides PhD H: I have an idea You reverse the signal so it it let us people say what they said backwards Grad D: Then you have like subliminal messages Grad F: But ha you ve seen the this the speech recognition system that reversed very short segments Did you read that paper ? It would not work The speech recognizer still works PhD E: And if you do it backward then PhD C: That s cuz they use forward backward Grad F: Forward but backward That s right PhD E: No it s backward forward Grad F: Good point A point Well I m sorry if I sound a little peeved about this whole thing It s just we ve had meeting after meeting after meeting a on this and it seems like we ve never gotten it resolved Professor B: Well but we never also we ve also never done it Postdoc A: This is the first cycle There are bound to be some glitches the first time through Professor B: So And and I m sorry responding without having much knowledge but the thing is I am like one of these people who gets a gazillion mails and and stuff comes in as Grad F: Well and that s exactly why I did it the way I did it which is the default is if you do nothing we are going to release it Because you know I have my pause stack of emails of to d to be done that you know fifty or sixty long and the ones at the top I m never going to get to

The team thought that people would not respond to their emails, which would be compounded by them being out of town over the summer. Based on knowledge about similar data collection, they thought that emails should be enough, but skepticism about getting consent with emails prevailed.

Grad F: So I do not expect anyone to But Professor B: So w what follows ? At some point y you go around and get people to sign something ? Grad F: No We had spoken w about this before and we had decided that they have they only needed to sign once And the agreement that they already signed simply said that we would give them an opportunity So as long as we do that we are covered Professor B: And how long of an opportunity did you tell them ?

Grad F was responsible for bringing up the topic. Apparently, no one had replied to the emails allowing people to bleep things out so far. According to Grad F, as long as the email was sent out, the team was covered. Grad F thought this had been settled when the project started and did not need to be revisited.

Postdoc A: And then I also the final thing I have for transcription is that I made a purchase of some other headphones because of the problem of low gain in the originals And and they very much appro they mu much prefer the new ones and actually I I mean I I think that there will be fewer things to correct because of the the choice We would originally chosen very expensive head headsets but they are just not as good as these in this with this respect to this particular task PhD H: Well return the old ones Grad F: It s probably impedance matching problems Postdoc A: I do not know exactly but we chose them because that s what s been used here by prominent projects in transcription So it i we had every reason to think they would work PhD H: So you have spare headsets ? You have spare headsets ? Grad F: They are just earphones They are not headsets They are not microphones PhD H: No no I mean just earphones ? because I I could use one on my workstation just to t because sometimes I have to listen to audio files and I do not have to b go borrow it from someone and Postdoc A: We have actua actually I have W Well the thing is that if we have four people come to work pause for a day I was I was hanging on to the others for eh for spares but I can tell you what I recommend Professor B: No but you would If you w we should get it Grad F: But if you need it just get it Postdoc A: It would just have to be a s a separate order an added order Grad D: I still I still need to get a pair too Professor B: They are they are they are they are pretty inexpensive PhD E: that We should order a cou t two or three or four actually Grad D: I m using one of these PhD H: I think I have a pair that I brought from home but it s f just for music listening Professor B: No Just just just just buy them PhD E: Sh Just get the model number PhD H: and it s not Nnn PhD E: and Where do you buy these from ? Postdoc A: Cambridge SoundWorks just down the street PhD E: Like ? You just b go and b Postdoc A: They always have them in stock PhD E: That would be a good idea Grad F: W could you email out the brand ? Cuz I think sounds like people are interested Postdoc A: It s made a difference in in how easy Professor B: I realized something I should talk about So what s the other thing on the agenda actually ? Grad F: the only one was Don wanted to talk about disk space yet again Grad D: you It s short I mean if you want to go we can just throw it in at the end Professor B: No no Why do not you why do not you go ahead since it s short Grad F: Oh I thought you meant the disk space we know disk space is short PhD H: The disk space was short That s what I thought too PhD E: That s a great ambiguity It s one of these it s it s social Professor B: It s I i i it i PhD E: See if I had that little pause scratch pad I would have made an X there Grad F: well we will give you one then Grad D: So without thinking about it when I offered up my hard drive last week this is always a suspect phrase PhD E: It was while I was out of town Grad D: But no I I realized that we are going to be doing a lot of experiments o for this paper we are writing so we are probably going to need a lot more We are probably going to need that disk space that we had on that eighteen gig hard drive But we also have someone else coming in that s going to help us out with some stuff Professor B: We ve just ordered a hundred gigabytes Grad D: So OK We just need to PhD E: I think we need like another eighteen gig disk pause to be safe Professor B: Well we are getting three thirty thirty sixes That are going into the main f file server PhD C: Markham s ordering and they should be coming in soon Grad D: I mean I guess the thing is is all I need is to hang it off like the person who s coming in Sonali s computer PhD H: Oh so so you mean the d the internal the disks on the machines that we just got ? Grad D: Whew Or we can move them PhD C: These are going to go onto Abbott Professor B: Onto Abbott the file server Grad D: So are we going to move the stuff off of my hard drive onto that when those come in ? Grad F: Once they come in Sure PhD E: Do when when is this planned for pause roughly ? PhD C: They should be I I imagine next week or something Grad F: If you are if you are desperate I have some space on my drive Grad D: I think if I m Grad F: But I I vacillate between no space free and pause a few gig free Grad D: I think I can find something if I m desperate and in the meantime I will just hold out That was the only thing I wanted to bring up PhD C: It should be soon We we should Professor B: So there s another hundred gig So OK It s great to be able to do it just say `` oh a hundred gig Grad F: A hundred gig here a hundred gig there PhD E: Well each meeting is like a gig or something Grad F: It s eventually real disk space

The team decided that it would be a good idea to purchase headphones. They also ordered a hundred gigabytes of disk space though they thought an extra eighteen for backup would not be a bad idea. This was good because the team was currently constrained by space.

Postdoc A: but they are just not as good as these in this with this respect to this particular task PhD H: Well return the old ones Grad F: It s probably impedance matching problems Postdoc A: I do not know exactly but we chose them because that s what s been used here by prominent projects in transcription So it i we had every reason to think they would work PhD H: So you have spare headsets ? You have spare headsets ? Grad F: They are just earphones They are not headsets They are not microphones PhD H: No no I mean just earphones ? because I I could use one on my workstation just to t because sometimes I have to listen to audio files and I do not have to b go borrow it from someone and Postdoc A: We have actua actually I have W Well the thing is that if we have four people come to work pause for a day I was I was hanging on to the others for eh for spares but I can tell you what I recommend Professor B: No but you would If you w we should get it Grad F: But if you need it just get it Postdoc A: It would just have to be a s a separate order an added order Grad D: I still I still need to get a pair too Professor B: They are they are they are they are pretty inexpensive PhD E: that We should order a cou t two or three or four actually Grad D: I m using one of these PhD H: I think I have a pair that I brought from home but it s f just for music listening Professor B: No Just just just just buy them PhD E: Sh Just get the model number PhD H: and it s not Nnn PhD E: and Where do you buy these from ? Postdoc A: Cambridge SoundWorks just down the street PhD E: Like ? You just b go and b Postdoc A: They always have them in stock

Postdoc A thought that the original headphones had low gain, so he purchased new earphones. He informed the team that he just bought them from Cambridge SoundWorks down the street. They always have them in stock.

Professor B: No but you would If you w we should get it Grad F: But if you need it just get it Postdoc A: It would just have to be a s a separate order an added order Grad D: I still I still need to get a pair too Professor B: They are they are they are they are pretty inexpensive PhD E: that We should order a cou t two or three or four actually Grad D: I m using one of these PhD H: I think I have a pair that I brought from home but it s f just for music listening Professor B: No Just just just just buy them PhD E: Sh Just get the model number PhD H: and it s not Nnn PhD E: and Where do you buy these from ? Postdoc A: Cambridge SoundWorks just down the street PhD E: Like ? You just b go and b Postdoc A: They always have them in stock PhD E: That would be a good idea Grad F: W could you email out the brand ? Cuz I think sounds like people are interested Postdoc A: It s made a difference in in how easy Professor B: I realized something I should talk about So what s the other thing on the agenda actually ? Grad F: the only one was Don wanted to talk about disk space yet again Grad D: you It s short I mean if you want to go we can just throw it in at the end Professor B: No no Why do not you why do not you go ahead since it s short Grad F: Oh I thought you meant the disk space we know disk space is short PhD H: The disk space was short That s what I thought too PhD E: That s a great ambiguity It s one of these it s it s social Professor B: It s I i i it i PhD E: See if I had that little pause scratch pad I would have made an X there Grad F: well we will give you one then Grad D: So without thinking about it when I offered up my hard drive last week this is always a suspect phrase PhD E: It was while I was out of town Grad D: But no I I realized that we are going to be doing a lot of experiments o for this paper we are writing so we are probably going to need a lot more We are probably going to need that disk space that we had on that eighteen gig hard drive But we also have someone else coming in that s going to help us out with some stuff Professor B: We ve just ordered a hundred gigabytes Grad D: So OK We just need to PhD E: I think we need like another eighteen gig disk pause to be safe Professor B: Well we are getting three thirty thirty sixes

The professor thought that anyone who needed headphones should purchase them since they were not very expensive. He wanted to get the discussion about disk space out of the way. He informed the team that he had ordered a hundred gigabytes.

Industrial Designer: they are in the LCD panel and the jogdial ? Project Manager: So w what kind of thing is going to be Industrial Designer: The LCD panel just displays functionally what you are doing If you are using an advanced function right like c brightness contrast whatever it will just say You know it is like it only has four columns it is a very simple LCD like whereas many the minimum amount we need that the user will automatically know like this is brightness or this is contrast It might even be one a bit more complex LCD panel with pictures like maybe the sun or the you know the the symbols of the various functions Marketing: Mmhmm and what is this here ? Industrial Designer: That is a number pad Marketing: so the number pad is Kay great Project Manager: Where are we going to have the slogan ? Industrial Designer: they are al along this User Interface: You know just like right inside there Industrial Designer: You have this space here and then you have this thing on the side as well or at the bottom Because slogans are usually quite small right they are not like huge say a buttons about this size right so you would still have plenty of space for a slogan say even for that Project Manager: So if this is not to scale what kind of dimensions are you thinking about here ? User Interface: Well we want the other buttons to be big enough to push easily with a finger so we reckon maybe that will be about the same size as the palm of your hand Industrial Designer: Yep so that would be about a centimetre for a button so one two three four centimetres Plus maybe half o five Project Manager: Six seven eight nine ten So we are talking about ten centimetres That would be good So ten centimetres in height Marketing: That would be good in fact a pen is about ten centimetres usually so that would be that sounds like a really good size if you see it there Project Manager: That is great and it is very bright as well So Marketing: Mm Is it possible I am just going to bring up the idea of colours Is these are these the colours that of production or is this just what we had available ? User Interface: Well I am We are going to have again the the sort of the foggy yellow from last time that lit up when you pushed the button Project Manager: could you just list all the things that it does s so I can write them in the report User Interface: But this button because it is red it is sort of very prominent we are going to use it as it can be the power button if you hold it for maybe two seconds it will send a standby signal apart from that it is going to be used as a confirm button for the LCD screen and you use this as a jogdial Project Manager: so that is like an button right Industrial Designer: Oh we have discussed how h high it is but how wide is it ? Marketing: How high is it ? Industrial Designer: No as in the height but what about the width ? User Interface: Did not put five centimetres Project Manager: like depth of the actual thing Industrial Designer: Do we need five ? I do not think five is be about th three and a half Project Manager: Oh is this k to get an idea of scale from your from your thing there So you can power on and off what else can you do ? User Interface: you can skip straight to a channel using these buttons were going to have the volume control here but because we have got the the LCD and the jogdial we just thought we would use that as the volume Project Manager: jogdial for volume And what else do you do with the jogdial ? User Interface: you can use it for more advanced functions like contrast colour and just whatever else we wanted to include as the advanced functions we did not actually go through and specify the Project Manager: Well of the designers what are they ? User Interface: what can a TV do ? Project Manager: That is a good one Industrial Designer: What else ? the various inputs Are you having a VCR are you having you know which input do you have ? Yep colour sharpness a lot of these things will have to be free and open for users to define them Project Manager: Sharpness what about sound settings ? d can you change any of those at all ? Industrial Designer: Audio we have like your basic y your base your midrange your high range Yep leftright balance maybe even preprogrammed sound modes like the user could determine like a series of sound modes and then what could happen would be when you click on that then it would go to that setting

User Interface indicated to have a simple LCD screen to cut down the budget, while Industrial Designer suggested the application of a little more complex LCD panel, like the number pad, could display the advanced functions possibly used by the users. Marketing and Project Manager agreed with Industrial Designer. Next, the group turned to discuss some details, like the total size for the button, and the various functions of the button as well as a jog-dial.

Industrial Designer: say a buttons about this size right so you would still have plenty of space for a slogan say even for that Project Manager: So if this is not to scale what kind of dimensions are you thinking about here ? User Interface: Well we want the other buttons to be big enough to push easily with a finger so we reckon maybe that will be about the same size as the palm of your hand Industrial Designer: Yep so that would be about a centimetre for a button so one two three four centimetres Plus maybe half o five Project Manager: Six seven eight nine ten So we are talking about ten centimetres That would be good So ten centimetres in height Marketing: That would be good in fact a pen is about ten centimetres usually so that would be that sounds like a really good size if you see it there Project Manager: That is great and it is very bright as well So Marketing: Mm Is it possible I am just going to bring up the idea of colours Is these are these the colours that of production or is this just what we had available ? User Interface: Well I am We are going to have again the the sort of the foggy yellow from last time that lit up when you pushed the button Project Manager: could you just list all the things that it does s so I can write them in the report User Interface: But this button because it is red it is sort of very prominent we are going to use it as it can be the power button if you hold it for maybe two seconds it will send a standby signal apart from that it is going to be used as a confirm button for the LCD screen and you use this as a jogdial Project Manager: so that is like an button right Industrial Designer: Oh we have discussed how h high it is but how wide is it ? Marketing: How high is it ? Industrial Designer: No as in the height but what about the width ? User Interface: Did not put five centimetres Project Manager: like depth of the actual thing Industrial Designer: Do we need five ? I do not think five is be about th three and a half Project Manager: Oh is this k to get an idea of scale from your from your thing there So you can power on and off what else can you do ? User Interface: you can skip straight to a channel using these buttons

The button was red with a width of three centimeters and a half. As for the function, it could be used as a confirm button for the LCD screen and a power button if the user held it for around two seconds.

User Interface: were going to have the volume control here but because we have got the the LCD and the jogdial we just thought we would use that as the volume Project Manager: jogdial for volume And what else do you do with the jogdial ? User Interface: you can use it for more advanced functions like contrast colour and just whatever else we wanted to include as the advanced functions we did not actually go through and specify the Project Manager: Well of the designers what are they ? User Interface: what can a TV do ? Project Manager: That is a good one Industrial Designer: What else ? the various inputs Are you having a VCR are you having you know which input do you have ? Yep colour sharpness a lot of these things will have to be free and open for users to define them Project Manager: Sharpness what about sound settings ? d can you change any of those at all ? Industrial Designer: Audio we have like your basic y your base your midrange your high range Yep leftright balance maybe even preprogrammed sound modes like the user could determine like a series of sound modes and then what could happen would be when you click on that then it would go to that setting Project Manager: is there anything else at all it can do ? That because that is that is fine Just need to know so I can write it down right I g I guess that is it so we can now We can now have a little look at the the Excel sheet and price listing and see if we need to if we need to rethink anything at all

The jog dial can be used to control volume, contrast, brightness, channels, auxiliary inputs, color, sharpness, sound, audio, left-right balance, and pre-programmed sound modes.

Project Manager: then I would say two or three Industrial Designer: Wait what is the scale one to seven right ? User Interface: Ones highish is not it ? Ah so two or three Marketing: Let us go with two point five then Project Manager: Well it has the wee jogdial Marketing: so we have had to remove a few of our features we wanted Project Manager: I would go with three or four Industrial Designer: but going towards a little bit higher than medium kind of thing Marketing: Style reflects a fruit inspired colour design I should not have said colour but just Industrial Designer: the blue the blue colours and do not re do not actually represent the colour Project Manager: Well that is kind of Industrial Designer: except for the b the the red button they because for want of a Project Manager: But the yellow I mean it could be a lemon yellow colour Industrial Designer: the the yellow is more representative of the colour but the button itself the blue can be anything else Marketing: so we will go two ? and design is simple to use simple in features Project Manager: Well I mean it is really basic looking is not it ? Marketing: F f f fairly basic Project Manager: I mean I would give that nearly a one Marketing: one ? soft and spongy have we achieved that ? We have used mostly plastic in the end so it is going to be quite a bit of a compromise for price User Interface: I think it is about five Project Manager: Five ? That is really low User Interface: well we have to use plastic so it is probably going to be Marketing: could we have used an entirely rubber frame to it ? Was that an option ? Industrial Designer: I think it will be cost prohibitive User Interface: I think I would probably increase the cost Marketing: It would cost more than plastic User Interface: We have only got like what ten cents left so Marketing: logo we have got it in there have not we ? Project Manager: Yep Going To have that on the side are not we like there or something ? Marketing: Huh And it is within budget yep It is is not it ? so we can say then that out of a possible or what would be our goal here ? Project Manager: Out of forty nine I guess Marketing: out of forty nine with with zero being the highest We are at two seven eight ten fifteen point five So it is pretty good Translates to something like about approximately seventy two percent efficacy of our original goal Right ? I think because if you turn that into a hundred it would be about and then invert that it is Project Manager: So ab well about sixty nine seventy percent Marketing: Oh right about seventy seventy percent good That was just a little formality for us to go through Yep oh hundred pound pen Project Manager: Is that you all have all finished or Marketing: that is that is me I did have one other one other frame I thought I mean I I d not knowing how we would deal with this information I thought in theory this kind of a process would be about refining our design revisiting our original goals It is not something I need to p push through but I thought should we thinking more about the dimensions sort of like more of a three dimensional shapes as well as opposed to just that flat Could our design involve a series of colours so that it is more of like a line where we have like sort of the I do not know like the harvest line or the vibrant I do not know the Whatever just some theme and then we have different tones lime green lemon It is just discussion I mean obviously we can just abandon this it is fine I am just thinking about what we originally set out to do yep so there That is all Project Manager: great are you submitting the the evaluation criteria or am I ? I do not know what your instructions have been Marketing: I think to record it and I have not been asked to submit it yet Project Manager: just wondering if I need to include it in the minutes because if you are submitting it anyway then Industrial Designer: It keeps getting too big Project Manager: Cool right well next up then because we have done finance is the project evaluation Industrial Designer: Kay I am I am listening I am just trying to incorporate the logo into the the thing so I am playing with the PlayDoh as well Just in case you are wondering why is he still playing with the PlayDoh ? Project Manager: Right well do you want to just individually say what you think about about these four points and or not those four points my four points sorry forgotten that You got a different Marketing: Yep I like those printer cables that just have the two little butterfly clips like that Project Manager: Oh they are good are not they here we are as a note we will do this alphabetically do you want to start Andrew ? Marketing: Sure so what is it you are asking of me now ? Project Manager: I do not know just your opinion on those four those four points really and how we used them Marketing: Or sort of our work on setting this up Well is it I will just go through your system then The the room is fairly institutional but the main thing is I think our use of this space is more just to report on things as opposed to be creative and constructive and it would probably help to have l sort of a cumulative effect of we have ideas and we come back and then the ideas are still in discussion you know as in other words this this room is sort of a centre point of creativity whereas in reality as we have gone through this it is not really the centre point of creativity it is more just a Project Manager: Well d do you feel though that that you were able to have quite a lot of creative input into the thing ? Marketing: d debating but that is just the thing is the quest in terms of the the first point there the room it feels as though the creativity goes on when we leave and then we come here and then we kind of put out our ideas and then you know Project Manager: But I do not I do not think it means the room as in this room I think it means like you know Marketing: Oh oh right right oh right room for creativ Oh right I just looked up and saw whiteboard digital pens the room Project Manager: Well I do not know do you th I think it means I think it means did you feel you were able to give creative input so Marketing: Sorry Huh I th on th dif answering the question in those terms I would say that actually there is sort of a tease of creativity because we are asked to work through this but actually the guidelines are fairly contrived in terms of fashion trends say fruit and vegetable colour scheme but then i then we are told use the co company company colours So what do we do We are told think in terms of style and look and feel and technology but build something for twelve and a half pounds so actually the creativity was more more of like a a f sort of a f formality then an actual Industrial Designer: You feel like you are caged within whatever y It is like a balloon in a cage it can only go so big and not hit the side The constraints do come in very fast Project Manager: actually let us take each point and everybody discuss it I think So still on the topic of room for creativity next up is Craig User Interface: I agree with his point it is it is quite a lot of fun t to go and then you have sort of hit the end then go right got to cut everything out because we do not have enough money Industrial Designer: I think another point is that the meetings are more brainstorming sessions than meetings so time is also a very s strong factor and structure Because for a brainstorming meeting you want a structure that allows you to allows ideas to get tossed to be evaluated and to be reviewed and to get feedback and come back And I guess that point about the room not being r very friendly to that I think that is a very big thing and I think the fact that we are wearing these things restricts I feel it because I wear m my glasses right and that but that irritates me right it it it does actually you know affect how w whether you feel comfortable to communicate I feel like I am hiding behind the equipment rather than the equipment is helping me and you know Project Manager: So you think a more relaxed atmosphere would be more kind of conducive to creative thought or Industrial Designer: Not not so much an atmosphere the atmosphere is very relaxed but the the gear you know that creates boundaries to that and and the time the time given also restricts Project Manager: Very good what about leadership ? I do not know if that means like if I did a good job or something I do not really know Marketing: well well I mean my sense on that is sort of what kind of guidance and direction encouragement Project Manager: From like your personal coach person and stuff like that do you think maybe ? Marketing: from and you as well I think just sort of acting as team leader I think I think it is I think it is good I mean my personal views on on leadership is that effective effective leadership sort of gives people a certain room for freedom and delegation but then to come back with something that they take great ownership and you know innovative thought with In in reality I think here the the different elements of leadership such as the the original b briefing and then the personal coach and the and then you know having having you with your the meeting agenda is actually quite a quite a quite a con confining framework to work within And so it is leadership almost to the point of sort of disempowering the the the team member so But it is not bad leadership it is just sort of s fairly strong you know It turns it turns the individual into more of like a sort of a predetermined mechanism as opposed to a sort of a free Project Manager: So you think maybe a little too controlling or Marketing: oh without without a doubt Industrial Designer: I think controlling is not the right word I think the interactions are very structured I think structure is probably what you are saying that each individual is structured to one particular task and one parti rather than controlling I do not think there is a sense of control because all the decisions have been made in terms of a like a consensus right we go around and we think about it but that you know process actually says you have to do it in a certain way It does not tell you you know some ways that you might want to be a bit more creative in terms of the process you know not the Marketing: did you want to comment Craig ? User Interface: reckon that was a bit hard because we could only discuss things in the meeting If we could just go up to somebody outside the meeting and have a quick talk with them that would have been a lot easier Industrial Designer: I think you tried to use the common share folder to to to to communicate but it just comes back to us so slow in the email it it does not have a you know a messenger will go Project Manager: Did did you guys get the email I sent you ? I was wondering if that got there so to s to to summarize the teamwork issue saying that if we could communicate outside the meeting you know just like quick questions quick thoughts whatever it probably would be bit easier Industrial Designer: I think the tools that they were given the tool set that were given to us are fancy but they do not support collaboration I think that is the word They do not support the team working together you know Marketing: exactly I mean if you Industrial Designer: they are still very individual tools Marketing: I mean sort of taking upon that idea w the way I see this i is that it is the the s the structure in which we have we have approached this whole task is quite contrary to the p principle of teamwork because the the tasks were d d sort of divided and then the work went on in isolation I I do not know what you guys did while you were together maybe that was a bit different but but but actually if you if you imagine not entire the completely same task given to us but us said first thing we have to do is come up with let us say a design concept and we sit here together and do it well that is what teamwork is To s to say go off and do not talk to each other it is actually p sort of predisposes you to quite the contrary of teamwork not that we have not done I think the best we could have done I am not dissatisfied with it Project Manager: Right anything else to say on teamwork at all ? what about the you know how we used the whiteboard the digital pens the projector stuff like that ? did anybody think anything was like really useful anything was pretty un f unsupportive ? Marketing: I think the whiteboard for me is the kind of thing I would use all the time but it is not quite as useful as to us as it could have been maybe just in the way that we we use it in the sense that once we have an idea out there or while work was going on in between meetings that could have been up on a board you know as opposed to in like in text and then we could then keep our ideas sort of building on that I know that people who design cars and you know in aviation they quite often just have a simple like fibreglass prototype and it is completely you know abs abstract from the final product but they use it as a kind of a context to sort of walk around and puzzle and and point and discuss Project Manager: Mmhmm And point at ? Marketing: and and and in a way everybodys as we discuss things in the in theoretically and out of our notebooks we are just we are actually just each of us discussing something that is in each of our own minds It was not until we had this here you know like at one point I peeked across and looked at Craigs paper and I am like now I know what he is thinking because I saw his book But the b the b whiteboard could have actually been this kind of continuing Project Manager: So do you think producing a prototype earlier in the process would have been a good idea ? Industrial Designer: I think the the focus of it a lot was the PowerPoint as opposed to the to the whiteboard and I think that m is also does you know hinder us and things I think It will be cooler to have the whiteboard rather than the the PowerPoint or maybe the whiteboard and the PowerPoint in the same place you know in the centre of the Marketing: because the PowerPoint was provided to us while we had time to prepare whereas I can imagine if I would been encouraged to use Paintbrush for example or whatever I would have actually used it ca you know just because that is sorta how we what we were set up to to use while we had our time Industrial Designer: I think that there were too many PowerPoints in the meetings Because the plugin and the plugging spent we spent a lot of time doing that And a lot of the information on the PowerPoints I do not think you know we needed to actually it could have we could have gone through it verbally I felt that they just you know as opposed to having to present them Project Manager: What about the digital pens did you find them easy enough to use ? User Interface: Oh they are a bit clunky Industrial Designer: Having to tick it before you go off was a bit hindering as well because you are half way through a thought and then you run out of paper and then you have to jump Project Manager: I know I think at the very start of today I like wrote a whole load of stuff did not click note on one then went back and wrote one tiny wee thing on the another page but then did click note and so I am quite worried that I have just written over the top of it or something but they will have my paper anyway and have not done that since Industrial Designer: But I think the pen is v is very intuitive everybody knows how to use it we do not have to worry So I think the pens good It is about the best thing Marketing: And o on the topic of the technology it just occurred to me that we actually did not need to move our computers because each computer has all of the files It just occurred to me that they all Industrial Designer: we only needed one computer and Marketing: We only actually needed one computer If there had been a fifth that coulda just been sitting there ready to go the whole time Industrial Designer: And the computer may not be conducive to a meeting because you tend to look at your computer and want to have the urge to check something you know Project Manager: Do you think the computers just provide distraction in a meeting ? Industrial Designer: I think too many computers are just distracting Project Manager: I know I I like to have things written down in front of me actually like a lot of the stuff that was emailed to me I ended up you know like writing down there or something so I could look at it really quickly and not have the distraction of all of that I do not know about anybody else what else any wh I do I am not really sure what they are looking for when they say new ideas found I do not know is User Interface: Is this for the project or Project Manager: could you think of like anything else that would have been helpful today at all ? Marketing: Well the w main one for me is that the process na in a natural f context would not have been interrupted by this necessity to discommunicate ourselves from each other Project Manager: Mm if we just had Marketing: So that is kind of a new idea for me is like just sort of that idea well you know it is kind of s hard to keep f working forward on a team a team based project when when you are told you must now work away from your team Project Manager: Mmhmm I I do not know I think it was quite good that we had time limits on the meetings because they really could have run on and like my experience with meetings is that they really do and you can spend a lot of time talking about The only thing is though like when we had our meeting about the conceptual design I thought there maybe another fifteen minutes would have been useful there but I really thi i I think maybe if we would like all been working in the one room and they just said you know like every hour or something everybody make sure yo you know just have a have a short meeting and then just c just to have like something written down just like you know a a milestone if you like rather than having meetings but There you go so in closing I have not got my five minutes to go Thin Oh there it i Five minutes to go Wonderful are the costs within the budget yes they are And is the project evaluated yes it is So now celebrate Industrial Designer: And we have Ninja Homer Marketing: So it So now we Project Manager: Well apparently now I write the final report What are you guys doing now ? User Interface: Do we know what the other ones are ? Marketing: I I do not know Project Manager: You do not know ? User Interface: Hey I said Ninja Homer Marketing: What did you call it ? Industrial Designer: Ninja Homer See it looks like Homer Simpson but it is electronic so it is made in Japan Project Manager: So is that j is that just is that just a logo or does it do anything ? Industrial Designer: it is just a logo Project Manager: Just a logo and then like Ninja Homer Industrial Designer: The the red is supposed to represent the whatever else you want to print on the side of it Project Manager: I think it is quite nice Industrial Designer: you can throw Homer when you are frustrated doh Project Manager: Oh no that is cool it is got I am kind of I am slightly gutted that we could not get plastic and rubber I think that would have been nice Ah well maybe from now on real reaction should give us more money Industrial Designer: Oh I did learn something new PlayDoh is useful No it is it is It is useful and in in in in in in in conceptualizing in being creative Because like you say it is something you can put your hands on and feel and touch and get a sense for Like we were playing with the PlayDoh and the ideas came with the PlayDoh rather than with everything else You might want to write that down It is just I am just fiddling with the PlayDoh and I am going it is kind of cool User Interface: Guess I would forgot how good s PlayDoh smells Project Manager: it smells funny does not it Marketing: And some PlayDohs are actually I think edible are not they ? Industrial Designer: No all PlayDoh is edible User Interface: I think they are all nontoxic because it is aimed for like twoyearolds Project Manager: I think it has to be Industrial Designer: It is just wheat it is the stuff that your mom could make with preservatives and Project Manager: wha what are your summarising words about PlayDoh ? Industrial Designer: It is helpful to the creative process it engages all your senses not just your sight but your sense of feel your sense of touch And it helps you to understand dimension as well I think that that is very helpful because it it starts to pop up whereas on a piece of paper on a computer on a board even with a three D graphic thing it still it requires a lot of User Interface: it is not very tangible Industrial Designer: tangible that is a nice word Project Manager: Mm I do not know if there is anything else we needed to discuss That that is about it really Just sit still I guess for a little while Marketing: Do we retreat to our to continue our Industrial Designer: I think we could probably do it here as long as we do not collaborate Marketing: r reporting or what i Project Manager: Well I do not know I am sure the little the little thingll pop up any minute now Industrial Designer: Can we turn off the microphones ? Project Manager: if the meetings over then I guess so

Project Manager wanted the members to evaluate the whole process of the project, such as the system, leadership, teamwork, and tools given. The meeting system was considered creative yet inefficient as the early designs were found generally out of budget. As for leadership, the process was a bit too structured. As for teamwork, additional communications like the quick talk could further prompt the current system. Besides, the tools given were criticized for the isolation of each's tasks and thoughts.

Marketing: Sure so what is it you are asking of me now ? Project Manager: I do not know just your opinion on those four those four points really and how we used them Marketing: Or sort of our work on setting this up Well is it I will just go through your system then The the room is fairly institutional but the main thing is I think our use of this space is more just to report on things as opposed to be creative and constructive and it would probably help to have l sort of a cumulative effect of we have ideas and we come back and then the ideas are still in discussion you know as in other words this this room is sort of a centre point of creativity whereas in reality as we have gone through this it is not really the centre point of creativity it is more just a Project Manager: Well d do you feel though that that you were able to have quite a lot of creative input into the thing ? Marketing: d debating but that is just the thing is the quest in terms of the the first point there the room it feels as though the creativity goes on when we leave and then we come here and then we kind of put out our ideas and then you know Project Manager: But I do not I do not think it means the room as in this room I think it means like you know Marketing: Oh oh right right oh right room for creativ Oh right I just looked up and saw whiteboard digital pens the room Project Manager: Well I do not know do you th I think it means I think it means did you feel you were able to give creative input so Marketing: Sorry Huh I th on th dif answering the question in those terms I would say that actually there is sort of a tease of creativity because we are asked to work through this but actually the guidelines are fairly contrived in terms of fashion trends say fruit and vegetable colour scheme but then i then we are told use the co company company colours So what do we do We are told think in terms of style and look and feel and technology but build something for twelve and a half pounds so actually the creativity was more more of like a a f sort of a f formality then an actual Industrial Designer: You feel like you are caged within whatever y It is like a balloon in a cage it can only go so big and not hit the side The constraints do come in very fast Project Manager: actually let us take each point and everybody discuss it I think

Marketing thought Project Manager's system was fairly institutional with a central point of creativity, but the group ought to focus more on the stylish look and technology and make a proper consideration on the budget.

Industrial Designer: You feel like you are caged within whatever y It is like a balloon in a cage it can only go so big and not hit the side The constraints do come in very fast Project Manager: actually let us take each point and everybody discuss it I think So still on the topic of room for creativity next up is Craig User Interface: I agree with his point it is it is quite a lot of fun t to go and then you have sort of hit the end then go right got to cut everything out because we do not have enough money Industrial Designer: I think another point is that the meetings are more brainstorming sessions than meetings so time is also a very s strong factor and structure Because for a brainstorming meeting you want a structure that allows you to allows ideas to get tossed to be evaluated and to be reviewed and to get feedback and come back And I guess that point about the room not being r very friendly to that I think that is a very big thing and I think the fact that we are wearing these things restricts I feel it because I wear m my glasses right and that but that irritates me right it it it does actually you know affect how w whether you feel comfortable to communicate I feel like I am hiding behind the equipment rather than the equipment is helping me and you know Project Manager: So you think a more relaxed atmosphere would be more kind of conducive to creative thought or Industrial Designer: Not not so much an atmosphere the atmosphere is very relaxed but the the gear you know that creates boundaries to that and and the time the time given also restricts

Industrial Designer thought the meeting was not friendly to the brainstorming. The restriction was not about the atmosphere but related to the actual environment and the limited time for discussion. Besides, the interaction was structured, meaning each individual took charge of one particular task without enough collaboration between each other. Also, communication through email was inefficient.

User Interface: Right Thank you Mines not quite as complicated as all that Project Manager: That is what we like to hear User Interface: Did I press function ? Project Manager: Is it control function ei Oh th there you go User Interface: Oh so I am going to talk a bit about the technical functions design I am Louisa the User Interface Designer as you know so the m basic method of this is to send a signal from the remote to the television set so that a desired function is performed an example of the function could be to change the volume up or down so obviously you need two different buttons for that to change the channel either by pressing the number that you want or by channel up or down to switch the television on or off maybe a standby button here are two example remotes by the look of it they both have kind of play and fast forward rewind functions so I think they incorporate a kind of video function which we will not have to worry about but as you can see the left remote is quite quite busy looking quite complicated whereas the right remote is much simpler it looks much more user friendly so my personal preference would be the right remote So it is got nice big buttons it is got a very limited number of buttons they are nice kind of clearly labelled I like the use of the kind of symbols like the triangles and the squares and the arrows as well as the words on the kind of play functions and all that So it is very very user friendly and it is got a little splash of colour Could maybe do with some more colour Project Manager: Well there is a couple of things there we have to remember that we have our own logo and colour scheme So basically we would have to we would have to be putting that on the the product User Interface: Do we get to see that ? Project Manager: I have not as yet no User Interface: Will you be presenting that in a bit ? Project Manager: But I got I got an email that basically said to make sure that whatever device we come up with at the end of the day had to incorporate the corporate colour and slogan So I am guessing that I notice on the bottom there it is got what is that ? APOGEE that might be the corporate colour scheme although the only the only colour I can see in that is the red Industrial Designer: Would you be able to get rid of the the extra buttons here the the sort of circular section because that seems to be for a video as well So we could dispense with that little bit as well and just get it down to just the numbers and the volume Possibly ? User Interface: What do you mean by the circular section ? Like all of that bottom bit ? Industrial Designer: just this little bit is that I think that is still a video remote part so maybe we could get rid of that as well User Interface: And I do not really think that you need nine numbers I mean how often do you use seven eight and nine ? I think just one to six and then channel up and down should be enough Project Manager: Well th the on the User Interface: Like how often do you hit nine ? Project Manager: Well for for general television purposes obviously you have channels one to five at this point in time and we would have to have some room for future such channels But but Industrial Designer: It is just people are used to seeing that so if we did not have them then they might think it is Project Manager: But well possibly but the the other thing is that with the current expansion of channels in the process of taking place certainly the button up and down but I mean how many channels do we have to actual television channels do we have to prepare for ? I would have thought that it is forever expanding and at the moment we have got although you have onl you have got the five standard you have got the BBC have come up with a further six and there is I do not know exactly how many channels there are on when you take into account Sky and various other various others So I would have thought that we would not you know rather if the time of flicking from one to other but presumably it will take a second because you have to be able to stop it Maybe you could have a fast forward on the on the channels that w and then you could dispense with more otherwise Y you would want you would want to get fairly quickly to the channel that you wanted User Interface: some remotes have kind of favourite options where if you always flick from channel one to channel six if that is a favourite you just like bypass two to five Project Manager: I s I suppose in a sense you could have if you have got a hundred channels then if you had sort of an easy way of getting rather than having to go one to a hundred you could go one to one to ten ten to twenty and then have a second button to get you to the actual channel you want and that would cut down your time User Interface: But I think a lot of like Cable and Sky and stuff that would be tuned to one channel and then you would have another remote for all of those channels Like to get to fifty five and the higher numbers Project Manager: Limit the number of buttons user friendly User Interface: But I suppose nines not really excessive Industrial Designer: I suppose with nine you have got the the like the last one which makes the tenth means you it is like multiples you can put them together so you can make any number User Interface: I suppose it does make a good pattern Industrial Designer: So with that we would kind of bypass any problems with Project Manager: you could get fifty by five and a zero or whatever that that makes sense Industrial Designer: Because that facilitates having all the numbers you could ever need Project Manager: So w so what was the circular thing that you were User Interface: I think that is just for a video so we would not need any of that at all Industrial Designer: So we could get it down to what ? Project Manager: If it is just for TV which is what it is at the moment Industrial Designer: So we get to How many buttons have we got ? We have just got ten eleven twelve th We got fourteen that we need I guess which is not really too many That will be quite easy to make a user guide for a fourteen button remote Project Manager: Mmhmm Well we have we have got that it is remote for TV only otherwise project would become too complex with which would endanger the time to market was one of the considerations I am I do not know d did you have that information behind the marketing or was I meant to give you that information ? Marketing: I am not sure I had I have had some market information but not from the company no Project Manager: Right so basically time to market seems to be important therefore speed of delivery We have only got about another four hours left User Interface: so is everyone happy with that ? Industrial Designer: Ah yes yes that seems good User Interface: Right well that is the end of my presentation

User Interface preferred a more user-friendly remote with nice big buttons and limited number of buttons. She also gave her suggestions about the symbol and colour of the remote. Then, they discussed the number of buttons on the remote.

User Interface: Oh so I am going to talk a bit about the technical functions design I am Louisa the User Interface Designer as you know so the m basic method of this is to send a signal from the remote to the television set so that a desired function is performed an example of the function could be to change the volume up or down so obviously you need two different buttons for that to change the channel either by pressing the number that you want or by channel up or down to switch the television on or off maybe a standby button here are two example remotes by the look of it they both have kind of play and fast forward rewind functions so I think they incorporate a kind of video function which we will not have to worry about but as you can see the left remote is quite quite busy looking quite complicated whereas the right remote is much simpler it looks much more user friendly so my personal preference would be the right remote So it is got nice big buttons it is got a very limited number of buttons they are nice kind of clearly labelled I like the use of the kind of symbols like the triangles and the squares and the arrows as well as the words on the kind of play functions and all that So it is very very user friendly and it is got a little splash of colour Could maybe do with some more colour Project Manager: Well there is a couple of things there we have to remember that we have our own logo and colour scheme So basically we would have to we would have to be putting that on the the product User Interface: Do we get to see that ? Project Manager: I have not as yet no User Interface: Will you be presenting that in a bit ? Project Manager: But I got I got an email that basically said to make sure that whatever device we come up with at the end of the day had to incorporate the corporate colour and slogan So I am guessing that I notice on the bottom there it is got what is that ? APOGEE that might be the corporate colour scheme although the only the only colour I can see in that is the red

User Interface suggested that they could design the symbols and colours for the remote. However, the Project Manager reminded the team that they should put their own logo and colour scheme on the remote, which means that they could not design those things by themselves.

Industrial Designer: Would you be able to get rid of the the extra buttons here the the sort of circular section because that seems to be for a video as well So we could dispense with that little bit as well and just get it down to just the numbers and the volume Possibly ? User Interface: What do you mean by the circular section ? Like all of that bottom bit ? Industrial Designer: just this little bit is that I think that is still a video remote part so maybe we could get rid of that as well User Interface: And I do not really think that you need nine numbers I mean how often do you use seven eight and nine ? I think just one to six and then channel up and down should be enough Project Manager: Well th the on the User Interface: Like how often do you hit nine ? Project Manager: Well for for general television purposes obviously you have channels one to five at this point in time and we would have to have some room for future such channels But but Industrial Designer: It is just people are used to seeing that so if we did not have them then they might think it is Project Manager: But well possibly but the the other thing is that with the current expansion of channels in the process of taking place certainly the button up and down but I mean how many channels do we have to actual television channels do we have to prepare for ? I would have thought that it is forever expanding and at the moment we have got although you have onl you have got the five standard you have got the BBC have come up with a further six and there is I do not know exactly how many channels there are on when you take into account Sky and various other various others So I would have thought that we would not you know rather if the time of flicking from one to other but presumably it will take a second because you have to be able to stop it Maybe you could have a fast forward on the on the channels that w and then you could dispense with more otherwise Y you would want you would want to get fairly quickly to the channel that you wanted User Interface: some remotes have kind of favourite options where if you always flick from channel one to channel six if that is a favourite you just like bypass two to five Project Manager: I s I suppose in a sense you could have if you have got a hundred channels then if you had sort of an easy way of getting rather than having to go one to a hundred you could go one to one to ten ten to twenty and then have a second button to get you to the actual channel you want and that would cut down your time User Interface: But I think a lot of like Cable and Sky and stuff that would be tuned to one channel and then you would have another remote for all of those channels Like to get to fifty five and the higher numbers Project Manager: Limit the number of buttons user friendly User Interface: But I suppose nines not really excessive Industrial Designer: I suppose with nine you have got the the like the last one which makes the tenth means you it is like multiples you can put them together so you can make any number User Interface: I suppose it does make a good pattern Industrial Designer: So with that we would kind of bypass any problems with Project Manager: you could get fifty by five and a zero or whatever that that makes sense Industrial Designer: Because that facilitates having all the numbers you could ever need Project Manager: So w so what was the circular thing that you were User Interface: I think that is just for a video so we would not need any of that at all Industrial Designer: So we could get it down to what ? Project Manager: If it is just for TV which is what it is at the moment Industrial Designer: So we get to How many buttons have we got ? We have just got ten eleven twelve th We got fourteen that we need I guess which is not really too many That will be quite easy to make a user guide for a fourteen button remote

The team agreed that there should be 17 buttons on the remote, including number 0 to 9, volume up and down, mute, channel up and down, stand-by and power buttons. Besides the buttons of brightness and contrast should be put on the back of the remote.

Marketing: Right we have done some research into the functional requirements that people want out of their remote control And first off we should state that th the remote controls for controlling the TV and how do people use it ? We asked them sort of which buttons were useful for them how d how does a remote control look and feel for them and what improvements would would they like to remote control And we did that by sort of giving them a questionnaire that we would prepared and asking them to fill in the answers And three quarters of them found that remote controls are ugly and that a sort of even higher proportion would spend more for a sort of s a fancier remote control And that of all the buttons on the remote control the sort of setting buttons for sort of the picture picture and brightness and the audio settings they were not used very often at all People concentrated on the channel buttons and the volume buttons and the power buttons we also asked them about speech recognition for remote control And young people were quite receptive to this but as soon as we got sort of over about into a thirty five to forty age forty five age group and older people people were not quite so keen on speech recognition There is a lot more th there is a lot lot more older people who did not know whether they wanted it or not as well we also asked what frustrated people about remote controls and the number one frustration was that the remote was lost somewhere else in the room and that they could not find it And the second second biggest frustration what that if they got a new remote control it was difficult to learn all the buttons and all the functions and to find your way around it so My personal preferences from the marketing is that we need to come up with some sort of sleek sort of good looking high hightech A design which looks hightech basically and that we should come up with fewer buttons than most of the controls on the market and we should sort of concentrate on the channels and sort of power and also volume and that sort of thing as as Louisa said we could maybe come up with a menu a sort of a an LCD menu for other functions on the remote control That is worth thinking about and maybe we could think about speech recognition as well because sort of young people are perhaps the ones that are going to buy buy our new product if we aim it at sort of you know sort of a hightech design That that might be the market that we are we are looking for And we could maybe think about using speech recogniti recognition as a way to find the remote control if it is lost in a room rather than sort of having it to speech recognition to change the channels Because there is a problem with that in that the television makes noise so it could end up talking to itself and changing its channel and that is the end of the slide show That is it Cool Project Manager: What was that last wee bit there ? But that was only for young people that preferred it older people did not Marketing: Youn young people pref they s they said that they would be interested in a remote control which offered that possibility and as you go up through the age groups people got less and less interested in sort of a a remote control that you could talk to so Industrial Designer: No what I maybe think is it seems the technology would be quite advanced for that and they might end up costing more than our twelve fifty budget for for the speech recognition And possibly the thing about the about the remote being lost we could have You know with your mobile phone you lose that and you can ring it Maybe we can have some kind of sensor which is kept somewhere where you can some kind of buzzer system between the two So you can press a button which is always kept in one place and then it maybe buzzes to somewhere else wherever the remote actually is Marketing: Uhhuh we would have t that would mean we would have to put two products together as well which which again would probably be a bit expensive but User Interface: There is key rings that you kind of whistle at or clap at I can not remember and then they whistle back or something like that That would probably be really simple Industrial Designer: So I guess it would be something we could like attach to the or like the same technology could be put inside the inside the remote Project Manager: Well if you are trying to avoid having a second product because obviously you could have a second product that gave you the right pitch which would set the remote off to say here I am sort of thing you know without sound recognition But if you I know I was going to say a sharp noise you know a clapping of hand or whatever You would want to try and av just have the one product that if Industrial Designer: if we if we could have it in the actual remote like everything in one one device Project Manager: I do not know talking about vo I mean obviously if you have got voice recognition then you can do it in that way because it will recognise the voice and you can give it a command a set command whatever that happened to be But you have then got the point if if you are not going with voice recognition then Industrial Designer: you could have an option to turn it off Or So that would solve the problems with the TV kind of speaking to the remote and changing its own channels Project Manager: So Any sugges Well any conclusions ? Marketing: would it take quite a while to sort of develop the speech recognition software in the remote control ? Project Manager: Well if it does then we can not because we have got th th three primary requisites from from and email that was sent to me whereby we had The design logo was one which we have already mentioned We have got the remote was only for the television and not for because that would make it too complex and we have to get it market quickly And the third thing was that teletext as far as the management is concerned is becoming dated due to the popularity of the internet So that means that so these are the sort of three extra parameters that have been put on this project So we are being focused effectively directly at a television and it seems to me that the management is wanting us to go down a narrow path and not opening out So anything that is to be added such as voice recognition et cetera has to be very simple and has to be very quick Industrial Designer: Has to be simple enough to Project Manager: because time to market is is critical S Industrial Designer: I suppose if we could get something in which was quite quick and simple that would give us an advantage over the other remotes Project Manager: It would But probably quick and simple is primary rather than added extras Added extras would be nice but the primary consideration is to get the project finished within this short time window which effectively now is sort of four hours So and if and we have got to get to the end d d I think I think first and foremost we have got to get to the end and then get to the end with added extras if possible

According to the research of Marketing, three quarters of the customers thought that their remotes are ugly. People only concentrated on the channel buttons, the volume buttons and the power buttons, and other buttons on the remote were seldom pressed. Many customers found it frustrating when their remotes were lost somewhere else in the room and they couldn't find them. Besides, it was difficult for people to learn all the functions on the remote. Then the team discussed the idea of a speech recognition system for the remote.

Marketing: Right we have done some research into the functional requirements that people want out of their remote control And first off we should state that th the remote controls for controlling the TV and how do people use it ? We asked them sort of which buttons were useful for them how d how does a remote control look and feel for them and what improvements would would they like to remote control And we did that by sort of giving them a questionnaire that we would prepared and asking them to fill in the answers And three quarters of them found that remote controls are ugly and that a sort of even higher proportion would spend more for a sort of s a fancier remote control And that of all the buttons on the remote control the sort of setting buttons for sort of the picture picture and brightness and the audio settings they were not used very often at all People concentrated on the channel buttons and the volume buttons and the power buttons we also asked them about speech recognition for remote control And young people were quite receptive to this but as soon as we got sort of over about into a thirty five to forty age forty five age group and older people people were not quite so keen on speech recognition There is a lot more th there is a lot lot more older people who did not know whether they wanted it or not as well we also asked what frustrated people about remote controls and the number one frustration was that the remote was lost somewhere else in the room and that they could not find it And the second second biggest frustration what that if they got a new remote control it was difficult to learn all the buttons and all the functions and to find your way around it so My personal preferences from the marketing is that we need to come up with some sort of sleek sort of good looking high hightech A design which looks hightech basically and that we should come up with fewer buttons than most of the controls on the market and we should sort of concentrate on the channels and sort of power and also volume and that sort of thing as as Louisa said we could maybe come up with a menu a sort of a an LCD menu for other functions on the remote control That is worth thinking about and maybe we could think about speech recognition as well because sort of young people are perhaps the ones that are going to buy buy our new product if we aim it at sort of you know sort of a hightech design That that might be the market that we are we are looking for And we could maybe think about using speech recogniti recognition as a way to find the remote control if it is lost in a room rather than sort of having it to speech recognition to change the channels Because there is a problem with that in that the television makes noise so it could end up talking to itself and changing its channel and that is the end of the slide show That is it Cool Project Manager: What was that last wee bit there ? But that was only for young people that preferred it older people did not Marketing: Youn young people pref they s they said that they would be interested in a remote control which offered that possibility and as you go up through the age groups people got less and less interested in sort of a a remote control that you could talk to so

Marketing suggested that the remote should be good looking and high-tech. And they should concentrate on the functions of changing channels and volumes. Besides, they could also think about using speech recognition as a way for people to find the remote control if it's lost in a room.

Marketing: and that is the end of the slide show That is it Cool Project Manager: What was that last wee bit there ? But that was only for young people that preferred it older people did not Marketing: Youn young people pref they s they said that they would be interested in a remote control which offered that possibility and as you go up through the age groups people got less and less interested in sort of a a remote control that you could talk to so Industrial Designer: No what I maybe think is it seems the technology would be quite advanced for that and they might end up costing more than our twelve fifty budget for for the speech recognition

Industrial Designer thought that the technology would be quite advanced and they might end up costing more than 25 budgets for speech recognition.

Project Manager: Kay Alright Now we have Courtney with the functional requirements Marketing: Yes so we tested a hundred subjects in our lab and we just we watched them and we also made them fill out a questionnaire and we found that the users are not typically happy with current remote controls Seventy five percent think they are ugly Eighty percent want they have are willing to spend more which is good news for us if we make it look fancier and basically w we just need something that really I mean there is some other points up there but they it needs to be snazzy and it but yet simple So that is really what we need to do And we need we need it to be simple yet it needs to be hightech looking So User Interface: And that meaning what ? Marketing: Like They like I guess use the buttons a lot I do not know It is from my research My team was not very clear User Interface: Only use ten percent of the buttons Project Manager: What do you mean by the current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user like they have to press the buttons Marketing: That is I I think it is like the engineering versus user whereas like the engineering she showed that the engineering ones are more complex and users do not really need all of the buttons that are contained on there because they only use ten percent of the buttons really Industrial Designer: We only use ten per cent of our brains Marketing: It is a necessary evil Project Manager: Ready for the next slide ? Marketing: Mmhmm And so people say that they typically lose it as you yourself know because you probably lose your remote control all the time much like any small appliance like a cellphone and they we need something simple because most people well thirty four percent say that it is just too much time to learn how to use a new one and we do not want to go we do not want to vary too far from the normal standard remote but I mean they do need to be able to identify it and RSI I am not very sure what that is Project Manager: It is It is very important Marketing: Yes it is important for the remote control world User Interface: Wait is that like your ergonomics like your hand movements or something ? Industrial Designer: Do we really need t to provide more information on what RSI is ? Marketing: that is what my web site said I Project Manager: I think that is a pretty good guess though User Interface: It is like if you are holding it Marketing: I think we are supposed to know it as remote control experts But also s so the channel the volume and the power buttons are the most important on our company website you can find like the specific statistics concerning to how much each button is used but those are the definitely the top ones Yes And so personally I think that we need a modern eyecatching design but it it really needs to be simple So saying from y your slide your presentation the engineering versus the userspecified remotes I think that we should go with something that is more userfriendly Where the engineering ones the boxes tend to make it look more complicated than it really is the functionality of the product really needs to be considered as to like what type of buttons do we really need on it And it needs to be open to a wide range of consumers so even though we need a small number of buttons we also need to take in like are most people going to be using it for a DVD player a TiVo what what exactly are we using it for as well as the age range So we need a hip but not a corny marketing scheme for promoting our product And also we found our team found that speech recognition is it is like an upandcoming thing they really consumers are really interested in it and since our findings found that people are willing to pay more money for a remote for it to be more highclass we could consider it Project Manager: And so just to just to clarify by speech recognition you mean they would say channel five and the thing would go to channel five ? User Interface: to just say where are you and thing beeps you know Project Manager: Oh that would be lovely Marketing: I guess we can interpret it like we can just try out different types of speech recognition within our remote programme Project Manager: Did not they did not our rival companies manufacture a remote that you would press the button on the TV and it would the remote would beep so if you have lost it User Interface: It is kind of like what the remote phone used to do Project Manager: Mm Oh that is true User Interface: You know like go to the base Project Manager: We could definitely include that if we wanted to If it is within our price Are we ready for our last presentation Amber ?

Marketing first shared the results of their lab tests. It was found that users preferred a fancier but yet simpler remote, and as a result, their product should be high-tech looking but also user-friendly. Since the research found that most users would only use ten percent of the buttons, they decided to only keep the most necessary ones on their remote. Users also claimed that remotes tend to be lost easily. Finally, since speech recognition was popular among users, the remote should have this function as well.

Marketing: Like They like I guess use the buttons a lot I do not know It is from my research My team was not very clear User Interface: Only use ten percent of the buttons Project Manager: What do you mean by the current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user like they have to press the buttons Marketing: That is I I think it is like the engineering versus user whereas like the engineering she showed that the engineering ones are more complex and users do not really need all of the buttons that are contained on there because they only use ten percent of the buttons really Industrial Designer: We only use ten per cent of our brains Marketing: It is a necessary evil

According to the lab tests, users only use ten percent of the buttons on a remote. It was shown that users didn't really need all the buttons provided by current remotes, and it would be more user-friendly if their new remote could lose the unnecessary ones. The most frequently used buttons were those for the channel, the volume and the power on/off.

Marketing: Mmhmm And so people say that they typically lose it as you yourself know because you probably lose your remote control all the time much like any small appliance like a cellphone and they we need something simple because most people well thirty four percent say that it is just too much time to learn how to use a new one and we do not want to go we do not want to vary too far from the normal standard remote

One thing they could do was to design a lost-and-found function to accommodate the user's need to retrieve the remote when it was lost. Another way was to give it a modern eye-catching design that could distinguish the new remote from current standard ones. Also, given that speech recognition was an up-and-coming thing among their target group, they could include this function in the remote, allowing users to control their devices by simply speaking to it.

Project Manager: let us talk about all of our We will come to decision later about all the components that we need to include let us wrap up this one and I am going to go back to my PowerPoint because we need to discuss the new project requirements which you might have already seen flashed up on the screen a bit earlier Wait come back Alright Sorry let us go through this Alright Here we go New product requirements First it is only going to be a TV remote We are trying not to overcomplicate things So no DVD no TiVo no stereo It is not going to be multifunctional Hey And we th need to promote our company more so we need to somehow include our colour and our company slogan on the remote We are trying to get our name out there in the world And you know what teletext is ? in States we do not have it but it is like they just have this channel where just has news and weather kind of sports it is very bland looking it is just text on the screen User Interface: it is like black black and white kind of Project Manager: just black with just text Marketing: Like running along the bottom ? Industrial Designer: You can also get the kind of the TV guide so User Interface: It will give you the sports Marketing: Wait is it like the Weather Channel where it is got like the ticker running on the bottom or something ? Project Manager: it is the whole screen Industrial Designer: It is the entire screen is just running information at random User Interface: You can pick sports you can pick the news you entertainment you know it is like Marketing: So it is like a separate channel from like what you are watching ? Project Manager: Right But it is becoming outdated now because of the Internet Nobody needs to go to the teletext channel to check the news and we have twenty four hour news channels now too so Those are our new product requirements Alright Mmhmm Industrial Designer: So do we have to include the company colour within that ? Project Manager: Yes It is part of the logo What we are going to do right now is come to some decisions definitive that we can all agree on about the target group and the functions and just definite things that we need to do and then we will close up the meeting So Alright Whatever So our target group is You mentioned older people ? Would it just be universal for everyone you think ? Because I think even if something has large buttons as long as they are not childishly large like even technically User Interface: It is going to make it nicer Project Manager: nontechnically challenged people are going to use it I mean they want something userfriendly so Industrial Designer: Mm well even if we kept the regular standard size of remote if we reduced the buttons down to the ones that people are saying that they use the most often and a couple extra because they are saying they only use ten per cent of them then we should be able to accommodate fairly decent sized buttons Project Manager: so we want for our target group would we say I mean young and old all age ranges all not kids obviously right ? Or kids ? Marketing: No kids need to know how to use a remote I would think Industrial Designer: Most of them will intuitively pick it up though Marketing: They got to change between Disney Channel Cartoon Network Project Manager: so we are going to go anywhere from kids to adult in the age range Marketing: I think we need it all Project Manager: what about technic technical specifications like how how technically literate are these people who are going to be using our remote ? Marketing: I would say we should say dumber than the average person User Interface: We should go for the lowest denominator Project Manager: Right So so they need no technical experience to operate Industrial Designer: how bout little to no because there is no way that you are going to be able to make it no Project Manager: And we also need to determine the specific functions of this just to get it all out on paper So we said it needs to send messages to the TV needs to change the channel turn on and off just basic simple stuff like this So if you have something just say it and we will add it to my meeting minutes User Interface: Well it is channel onoff button volume mute Marketing: And channel Those are the most important ones Project Manager: Right And we want to keep I will make a note here that we want to keep the number of buttons down Correct because people only use ten percent Kay Hey what else ? Industrial Designer: Do we want this thing to be able to be found easily ? Project Manager: I think so What do you A finding kind of device or Marketing: I need we we need a like homing device Industrial Designer: like if this is going to get lost underneath the coach how are we going to accommodate the quick ability to find it ? Marketing: Because people really are looking for a remote that is more hightech Industrial Designer: What if we gave it a charger ? And on the charger just like a phone like you get a portable phone and it is got a charger and if you d leave your phone somewhere you push the button to find it and it finds th the phone beeps for you User Interface: But you got a base Marketing: Do you think peoplell really go for that though ? Industrial Designer: It is useful for the remote phone Project Manager: Would that add to our costs at all I wonder ? Marketing: I would think so because you would have to develop a base User Interface: Well if you have the base you could start putting in a charger and then you have a different kind of battery Industrial Designer: Rechargeable batteries are cheaper usually Project Manager: I I think we can make a decision about that later we will still put that as a point that we need to discuss So that would include battery source Power source rather Is it going to have a charger or is it going to be run strictly off batteries ? And we also need to deal with the issue you mentioned of speech recognition if we want that User Interface: If we have the speech recognition then we can start aiming at a like another kind of more handicapped disabled demo demographic Marketing: Well th there is the people who desire speech recognition there is the different demog demographics have different desires I do not know if you guys ge Project Manager: You could we could hook it up Marketing: It would not copy onto the the thing because it is black but all the different age groups have different desires for speech recognition So basically older people do not really care It is really the people twenty five to thirty five I feel those are the people that really watch a lot of TV though They are the ones that get addicted to soap operas and Project Manager: And if and if we introduced it when they are this age they are going to probably always buy a remote that has Marketing: just sitcoms and stuff Right User Interface: Well then then do you put the voice recognition do you put the r like receiver on the actual television in the base or in the actual remote because then you have already got remote in your hand why you just going to speak to the remote whereas if you just speak in general and you do not have to have the remote in your hand and like talk at it Project Manager: and the speech recognition could be part of the lost and found device too If we said find remote locate remote or something A certain phrase then it could beep I do not know Just throwing it out there anything else we want to discuss ? User Interface: Well do we want to include the numbers like zero through nine ? Can we conceive of leaving them out ? Marketing: Wait on the remote itself ? User Interface: like you have one two three four five six seven eight nine zero Marketing: Well we definitely need those Project Manager: how would you leave those out ? User Interface: Well I do not know I mean if you can like well Project Manager: Unless you could say the channel User Interface: I do not know if there is just a way of leaving them out ? Industrial Designer: I think people would find that too foreign Project Manager: And also remember that in this day in age we need you know like a hundred button too I used to have a remote that did not even go up past like fifty So I could not whenever I got cable I had to get a new TV Industrial Designer: It is when we get satellite Project Manager: Mm get your own remote or digital cable Kay I guess we are going to discuss the project financing later making sure that we can fit all of the stuff that we want to on our budget Industrial Designer: because I do not have any material pricing information available to me at the moment so Project Manager: Kay And do not forget we need to include the colour of our company and the logo User Interface: The colour being yellow ? Project Manager: I am guessing And the RR Marketing: I feel like a ye I feel like a yellow one would be too garish Project Manager: We could just have the logo in yellow User Interface: Can not make it entirely Project Manager: or maybe a yellow light for the keys Marketing: Or put like stripes oh yellow lights Industrial Designer: yellow could be and it could does not have to be huge User Interface: Well if you have like a Hang on If you have this sort of strip kind of down at the bottom the base of it just like yellow with the RR Project Manager: Right So we have simplified we do not need all those play fastforward rewind So we have pretty much pared it down to onoff volume mute channel up and down the numbers can we go back to I am going to look really quickly back at those examples and see if there is anything Which one is yours technical functions or functional requirement ? Marketing: audi audio settings and screen settings we need those like audio settings mono stereo pitch screen settings like brightness colour or do we just want that accessed accessed from the television itself ? Project Manager: The TV I think that that is fine just for the TV I mean how often does the average user need to do that kind of stuff ? User Interface: Well the other option is sort of like down at the bottom like farther away you just have this sort of box inset where it is like the buttons that you do not use as much but occasionally you will use and so it is like Marketing: because we need to we definitely need to have buttons for like subtitles and things like that It is because the foreign film market is expanding and stuff and like on television like I know f k living in Los Angeles it is tons of Spanish network television if it has English subtitles it is definitely helpful Project Manager: Could not we do that all through one button something a menu button that pops up with a menu on the TV that says you know audio video whatever language User Interface: I do not well I do not know Marketing: So we need up down and sidetoside buttons User Interface: Well that could be No you could just double up with like the channel or the volume buttons Channel is just up and down Project Manager: Something that looks mayb you know Marketing: Such as the one the one over there on the left the engineering centred one Project Manager: Y right right right right User Interface: So we just have it like add a menu button then for the various things needed including v voice recognition if we have any like settings for voice recognition now Marketing: Ooh I just got an idea for a design Project Manager: good Anybody have anything else they would like to bring up in this meeting ? Industrial Designer: I had something but I forgot

Project Manager first announced that their product was only going to be a TV remote instead of a multifunctional one, and that the yellow colour and the slogan of their company should be included in their design. Their target group should be people of all ages with little to no technical literacy. The specific functions of their remote should include sending messages to the TV, lost-and-found assistance, and speech recognition. A menu button could be designed to cover all various additional functions.

Industrial Designer: What if we gave it a charger ? And on the charger just like a phone like you get a portable phone and it is got a charger and if you d leave your phone somewhere you push the button to find it and it finds th the phone beeps for you User Interface: But you got a base Marketing: Do you think peoplell really go for that though ? Industrial Designer: It is useful for the remote phone Project Manager: Would that add to our costs at all I wonder ? Marketing: I would think so because you would have to develop a base User Interface: Well if you have the base you could start putting in a charger and then you have a different kind of battery Industrial Designer: Rechargeable batteries are cheaper usually

Industrial Designer suggested that the remote could be attached to a charger base, and the lost remote would beep if a button on the base was pushed. This might add to their costs, and would require a rechargeable battery for the remote. Project Manager later proposed that the speech recognition could be part of the lost-and-found device. This would allow the remote to beep when hearing a certain phrase.

User Interface: Well do we want to include the numbers like zero through nine ? Can we conceive of leaving them out ? Marketing: Wait on the remote itself ? User Interface: like you have one two three four five six seven eight nine zero Marketing: Well we definitely need those Project Manager: how would you leave those out ? User Interface: Well I do not know I mean if you can like well Project Manager: Unless you could say the channel User Interface: I do not know if there is just a way of leaving them out ? Industrial Designer: I think people would find that too foreign Project Manager: And also remember that in this day in age we need you know like a hundred button too I used to have a remote that did not even go up past like fifty So I could not whenever I got cable I had to get a new TV Industrial Designer: It is when we get satellite Project Manager: Mm get your own remote or digital cable

User Interface first asked whether they could possibly leave out the number buttons, but this proposal was turned down by others. They simplified the buttons to on-off, volume, mute, channel up/down, and the numbers 0–9. For more advanced functions, Project Manager suggested an additional one-for-all menu button that would allow the user to pull up various options on the TV screen. The channel and volume buttons could be used for navigating the menu page.

Project Manager: the selling price for the remote will be twenty five Euro and the production cost may not be more than twenty and a half Euro So from my point of view I do not think it is going to be very very high tech high definition ultra modern kind of remote for twelve fift twelve and a half Euro the profit we must make with the new remote is fifty million Euro So that is a lot We have to sell a lot of User Interface: how much is it ? Hundred million remotes or something ? Project Manager: I think w when the selling price is twenty five you got two million two million remotes Industrial Designer: Twenty million Two million oh two million Project Manager: But our marketing range is market range is international So we have virtually the whole world we can sell we can sell our r remotes to At least that countries which have a television

The remote control would be priced at 25 Euros, produced at the cost of 12.5 Euros. Since the company has international market range, at least 2 million units would have to be sold to meet the company's profit goals of 50 million Euros.

Project Manager: So now it is time for us to going to discuss a little things You can think about experience with a remote control yourself at home What you think might be a useful new feature What what can distinguish our new trendy remote control from all the others so let us let us discuss a little I am going to join you at the table Well what what is the most important thing at a remote control ? User Interface: well I think the most important thing of a remote control is that you can switch channels And my opinion is you should keep it as basic as possible Project Manager: So not a not a remote control who which can can be used for television and a DVD and radio and Or just only Marketing: I think so but I have some points Can I show them on the on the big screen ? Maybe ? Project Manager: If you have them on I can Oh in case you want it This is a dead kind of fly Between the the the the the User Interface: Is it possible to open pen drawings in this on this screen ? Project Manager: No no no Only All the drawings go there at the left User Interface: but which The ones we made on the Project Manager: Oh that pen drawings no I think when it is in Word and you have saved it in the Shared Documents folder you can show it there Marketing: I have some points from marketing point of view just the standard thing li things like intuitive small fairly cheap it is pretty cheap twenty five Euros brand independent I think it does not have to matter which brand your TV or other thing is I will wrap it up quickly I personally think it has to be multipurpose most of the remote c remote controls are just for one purpose And by making it multipurpose it has a new feature adds a new feature to the market and distinguish from from current products maybe some other technology than infrared I rather find it very annoying like when someone is standing in front of the TV then you can not switch it think about sending it over radio waves or bluetooth That might be a little bit expensive And something like an LCD screen like I said here Maybe it is easy It is nice as an added feature feature that when you are on a certain channel you can see on the LCD screen what programmes are coming up or Project Manager: So it be a multipurpose very technically high Marketing: From my point of view Project Manager: remote ? it must be really innovative technicalwise ? Marketing: it has to be our company is very good in making new innovative things Project Manager: So I I agree with you Marketing: So i i i i Project Manager: So we must focus on things who are really really add something to to Marketing: Look you got some cheap remote controls there They just you got a dozen of them But when you enter a new market with a remote control and want to gain market share you have to do something special I think Project Manager: But we have to keep an eye that it is at the beginning of such a project it is it is it is very cool to talk about well this would be cool that would be cool but we must not lose sight of the the user friendly Marketing: But it is But but this is just from marketing aspect

User Interface believed the most important function is to switch channels, and so it would be better to keep the remote control as basic as possible. Marketing proposed that the remote control had to be multi-purpose to be competitive among current products. Project Manager agreed to do something special on the product, but PM also pointed out being user-friendly was also of importance.

Marketing: I have some points from marketing point of view just the standard thing li things like intuitive small fairly cheap it is pretty cheap twenty five Euros brand independent I think it does not have to matter which brand your TV or other thing is I will wrap it up quickly I personally think it has to be multipurpose most of the remote c remote controls are just for one purpose And by making it multipurpose it has a new feature adds a new feature to the market and distinguish from from current products maybe some other technology than infrared I rather find it very annoying like when someone is standing in front of the TV then you can not switch it think about sending it over radio waves or bluetooth That might be a little bit expensive And something like an LCD screen like I said here Maybe it is easy It is nice as an added feature feature that when you are on a certain channel you can see on the LCD screen what programmes are coming up or Project Manager: So it be a multipurpose very technically high Marketing: From my point of view Project Manager: remote ? it must be really innovative technicalwise ? Marketing: it has to be our company is very good in making new innovative things Project Manager: So I I agree with you Marketing: So i i i i Project Manager: So we must focus on things who are really really add something to to Marketing: Look you got some cheap remote controls there They just you got a dozen of them But when you enter a new market with a remote control and want to gain market share you have to do something special I think Project Manager: But we have to keep an eye that it is at the beginning of such a project it is it is it is very cool to talk about well this would be cool that would be cool but we must not lose sight of the the user friendly Marketing: But it is But but this is just from marketing aspect I do not know anything about user interface or design

Marketing put forward innovative ideas including using radio waves and bluetooth. In the proposal, some potential problems about high cost and being limited to marketing aspects had also been mentioned by Marketing. Based on this, PM agreed that those ideas could help the product to be special and competitive, but PM also pinpointed that such a product required strong support of high technology. Besides, being user-friendly should not be ignored.

Marketing: I will wrap it up quickly I personally think it has to be multipurpose most of the remote c remote controls are just for one purpose And by making it multipurpose it has a new feature adds a new feature to the market and distinguish from from current products maybe some other technology than infrared I rather find it very annoying like when someone is standing in front of the TV then you can not switch it think about sending it over radio waves or bluetooth That might be a little bit expensive And something like an LCD screen like I said here Maybe it is easy It is nice as an added feature feature that when you are on a certain channel you can see on the LCD screen what programmes are coming up or

Marketing recommended developing a multi-purpose remote control because most of the remote controls on the market were made just for one purpose. Besides, Marketing suggested to use some other technology, such as radio waves and bluetooth, than infrared because it could be easily affected by obstacles. Thirdly, a nice added feature was to inform users of the coming programmes. Marketing conceived a high-tech remote control to be competitive among other products.

Project Manager: next meeting will start in thirty minutes So you will have individual actions where I presume will be some feedback via the m the mail the the the Industrial Designer has to look at the working design the User Interface Designer has to look at the technical functions So that is the thing we discussed User Interface: we must first agree on what we are going to m going to make Do we Are we going to use it it for multiple systems ? Or We should have some agreement on that before we Marketing: Mm I I do not think we have to be we have to agree on that Industrial Designer: I figure we could get back to it on the next meeting actually Marketing: I think th that is a pha That is a phase further Ju just make some mockups some some general ideas And and then we can plan We can plan further I think Project Manager: But maybe because you are working on the user requirements you are working on the technical functions we must have a little or kind of How do you call it ? User Interface: Consensus on the what we are going to do Project Manager: a little plan on on what we are going to do So you do not come up with the user requirements who do not fit the the the the technical functions at all Some basic things we co we want to going to do I think that is well Will come in handy Marketing: I do not know You decide You are the Project Manager User Interface: if the technical functions have to be designed I I have got to know for what kind of machines they will be Or do we use it a text screen ? Or will it be with with bluetooth or Project Manager: Well th that is that is really a step further But if you say is it one way or multipurpose that is a Marketing: tha that is a same step further Industrial Designer: Then looking at individual components so that is actually a f step further Marketing: Like we all have a list of things that has to b that have to be in it or how it has to be like And then in the next meeting we decide Industrial Designer: we can take it from there Marketing: w what it is going to be Industrial Designer: I agree we can take it from there Marketing: A And then you s then you can delete the o the obsolete details Project Manager: each individually i individually must think on what is at his point of view is the most important And then we are going to fit all the pieces together the next meeting I must finish off now so it is over You will receive specific specific instructions by your personal coach And I see you in thirty minutes Thank you

Project Manager gave each team member different tasks. Project Manager asked Industrial Designer to look at the working design, User Interface to work on the technical functions and Marketing to be responsible for user requirements. User Interface recommended to achieve some agreement on whether to use the new remote control for multiple systems, and User Interface also asked whether to use a text screen or bluetooth. Besides, Project Manager also demanded that everyone in the group should individually ponder the most important thing in this project from their own perspective.

PhD F: I was going to try to get out of here like in half an hour cuz I really appreciate people coming and the main thing that I was going to ask people to help with today is pause to give input on what kinds of database format we should pause use in starting to link up things like word transcripts and annotations of word transcripts so anything that transcribers or discourse coders or whatever put in the signal with time marks for like words and phone boundaries and all the stuff we get out of the forced alignments and the recognizer So we have this I think a starting point is clearly the the channelized pause output of Dave Gelbart s program which Don brought a copy of Grad C: I m I m familiar with that I mean we I sort of already have developed an XML format for this sort of stuff PhD D: Can I see it ? Grad C: And so the only question is it the sort of thing that you want to use or not ? Have you looked at that ? I mean I had a web page up PhD F: I actually mostly need to be able to link up or I it s it s a question both of what the representation is and Grad C: You mean this I guess I am going to be standing up and drawing on the board PhD F: OK So you should definitely Grad C: so so it definitely had that as a concept So tha it has a single time line and then you can have lots of different sections each of which have I Ds attached to it and then you can refer from other sections to those I Ds if you want to So that so that you start with with a time line tag `` Time line `` And then you have a bunch of times I do not e I do not remember exactly what my notation was PhD A: Oh I remember seeing an example of this Grad C: `` T equals one point three two `` And then I I also had optional things like accuracy and then `` ID equals T one one seven `` And then nonvocalsound I also wanted to to be i to be able to not specify specifically what the time was and just have a stamp so these are arbitrary assigned by a program not not by a user So you have a whole bunch of those And then somewhere la further down you might have something like an utterance tag which has `` start equals T seventeen end equals T eighteen `` So what that s saying is we know it starts at this particular time We do not know when it ends Right ? But it ends at this T eighteen which may be somewhere else We say there s another utterance We do not know what the t time actually is but we know that it s the same time as this end time You know thirty eight whatever you want PhD A: So you are essentially defining a lattice Grad C: And then and then these also have I Ds Right ? So you could you could have some sort of other other tag later in the file that would be something like oh I do not know comment nonvocalsound `` noise type equals nonvocalsound door slam `` You know ? And then nonvocalsound you could either say `` time equals a particular time mark `` or you could do other sorts of references So or or you might have a prosody `` Prosody `` right ? D ? T ? D ? T ? T ? PhD F: It s an O instead of an I but the D is good Grad C: You like the D ? That s a good D you know so you could have some sort of type here and then you could have the utterance that it s referring to could be YOU seventeen or something like that PhD F: OK So I mean that seems that seems g great for all of the encoding of things with time and I I guess my question is more what d what do you do with say a forced alignment ? I mean you ve got all these phone labels and what do you do if you just conceptually if you get transcriptions where the words are staying but the time boundaries are changing cuz you ve got a new recognition output or s sort of what s the sequence of going from the waveforms that stay the same the transcripts that may or may not change and then the utterance which where the time boundaries that may or may not change ? PhD A: Oh that s That s actually very nicely handled here because you could you could all you would have to change is the time stamps in the time line without without changing the I Ds PhD F: And you would be able to propagate all of the the information ? Grad C: Right That s the who that s why you do that extra level of indirection So that you can just change the time line PhD A: Except the time line is going to be huge If you say suppose you have a phone level alignment PhD F: especially at the phone level PhD A: You would have you would have PhD F: The we we have phone level backtraces Grad C: this I do not think I would do this for phone level I think for phone level you want to use some sort of binary representation because it will be too dense otherwise PhD F: OK So if you were doing that and you had this sort of companion thing that gets called up for phone level what would that look like ? Grad C: I would use just an existing an existing way of doing it PhD A: Mmm But but why not use it for phone level ? It s just a matter of it s just a matter of it being bigger But if you have you know barring memory limitations or I w I mean this is still the m Grad C: It s parsing limitations I do not want to have this text file that you have to read in the whole thing to do something very simple for PhD A: Oh no You would use it only pause for pause purposes where you actually want the phone level information I would imagine PhD F: So you could have some file that configures how much information you want in your in your XML or something Grad C: Right I mean you would y I I am imagining you would have multiple versions of this depending on the information that you want PhD F: cuz th it does get very bush with Right Grad C: I m just what I m wondering is whether I think for word level this would be OK For word level it s alright For lower than word level you are talking about so much data that I just I do not know I do not know if that

C developed an XML format that links together utterances based on time tags, essentially creating a lattice. The XML format would be divided into many sections, each with its own ID and timeline tag. The XML format could be modified to deal with smaller linguistic units since that would only entail changing the timestamps. Despite being easy to use, the format was not efficient for smaller linguistic units, like phones. It would work for word units, at best.

PhD F: OK So I mean that seems that seems g great for all of the encoding of things with time and I I guess my question is more what d what do you do with say a forced alignment ? I mean you ve got all these phone labels and what do you do if you just conceptually if you get transcriptions where the words are staying but the time boundaries are changing cuz you ve got a new recognition output or s sort of what s the sequence of going from the waveforms that stay the same the transcripts that may or may not change and then the utterance which where the time boundaries that may or may not change ? PhD A: Oh that s That s actually very nicely handled here because you could you could all you would have to change is the time stamps in the time line without without changing the I Ds PhD F: And you would be able to propagate all of the the information ? Grad C: Right That s the who that s why you do that extra level of indirection So that you can just change the time line PhD A: Except the time line is going to be huge If you say suppose you have a phone level alignment PhD F: especially at the phone level PhD A: You would have you would have PhD F: The we we have phone level backtraces Grad C: this I do not think I would do this for phone level I think for phone level you want to use some sort of binary representation because it will be too dense otherwise PhD F: OK So if you were doing that and you had this sort of companion thing that gets called up for phone level what would that look like ? Grad C: I would use just an existing an existing way of doing it PhD A: Mmm But but why not use it for phone level ? It s just a matter of it s just a matter of it being bigger But if you have you know barring memory limitations or I w I mean this is still the m Grad C: It s parsing limitations I do not want to have this text file that you have to read in the whole thing to do something very simple for PhD A: Oh no You would use it only pause for pause purposes where you actually want the phone level information I would imagine PhD F: So you could have some file that configures how much information you want in your in your XML or something Grad C: Right I mean you would y I I am imagining you would have multiple versions of this depending on the information that you want PhD F: cuz th it does get very bush with Right Grad C: I m just what I m wondering is whether I think for word level this would be OK For word level it s alright

F was concerned about how the time labels would adjust to smaller phonetic units. F inquired if the time boundaries could be changed by propagating new information throughout the XML. F thought that they could configure different XML files to deal with different units, but it would lead to large file sizes.

PhD A: Oh that s That s actually very nicely handled here because you could you could all you would have to change is the time stamps in the time line without without changing the I Ds PhD F: And you would be able to propagate all of the the information ? Grad C: Right That s the who that s why you do that extra level of indirection So that you can just change the time line PhD A: Except the time line is going to be huge If you say suppose you have a phone level alignment PhD F: especially at the phone level PhD A: You would have you would have PhD F: The we we have phone level backtraces Grad C: this I do not think I would do this for phone level I think for phone level you want to use some sort of binary representation because it will be too dense otherwise PhD F: OK So if you were doing that and you had this sort of companion thing that gets called up for phone level what would that look like ? Grad C: I would use just an existing an existing way of doing it PhD A: Mmm But but why not use it for phone level ? It s just a matter of it s just a matter of it being bigger But if you have you know barring memory limitations or I w I mean this is still the m Grad C: It s parsing limitations I do not want to have this text file that you have to read in the whole thing to do something very simple for PhD A: Oh no You would use it only pause for pause purposes where you actually want the phone level information I would imagine

A had seen an example of this kind of XML format before. A thought that the time boundaries were nicely handled but believed that smaller linguistic units would drain too much memory. It was essentially like a lattice, in his opinion. Though, A did not seem too concerned with dealing with smaller linguistic units since the problem would not be encountered frequently.

Grad C: I guess I m just a little hesitant to try to go whole hog on sort of the the whole framework that that NIST is talking about with ATLAS and a database and all that sort of stuff cuz it s a big learning curve just to get going Whereas if we just do a flat file format sure it may not be as efficient but everyone can program in Perl and and use it PhD A: I I m still not convinced that you can do much at all on the text on the flat file that that you know the text representation e Because the text representation is going to be not reflecting the structure of of your words and annotations It s just it s Grad C: Well if it s not representing it then how do you recover it ? Of course it s representing it PhD A: No You you have to what you have to do is you have to basically Grad C: That s the whole point PhD A: Y You can use Perl to read it in and construct a internal representation that is essentially a lattice But the and then Grad C: Well that was a different point Right ? So what I was saying is that PhD A: But that s what you will have to do Bec be Grad C: For Perl if you want to just do Perl If you wanted to use the structured XML query language that s a different thing And it s a set of tools that let you specify given the D DDT DTD of the document what sorts of structural searches you want to do So you want to say that you know you are looking for a tag within a tag within a particular tag that has this particular text in it and refers to a particular value And so the point is not that an end user who is looking for a query like you specified would not program it in this language What you would do is someone would build a tool that used that as a library So that they so that you would not have to construct the internal representations yourself PhD F: Is a See I think the kinds of questions at least in the next to the end of this year are there may be a lot of different ones but they will all have a similar nature They will be looking at either a word level prosodic an a value like a continuous value like the slope of something But you know we will do something where we some kind of data reduction where the prosodic features are sort o either at the word level or at the segment level or or something like that They are not going to be at the phone level and they are no not going to be at the frame level when we get done with sort of giving them simpler shapes and things And so the main thing is just being able Well I guess the two goals one that Chuck mentioned is starting out with something that we do not have to start over that we do not have to throw away if other people want to extend it for other kinds of questions and being able to at least get enough information out on where we condition the location of features on information that s in the kind of file that you pause put up there And that would that would do it Grad C: I think that there are quick and dirty solutions and then there are long term big infrastructure solutions And so we want to try to pick something that let us us do a little bit of both PhD F: In the between right And especially that the representation does not have to be thrown away even if your tools change Grad C: And so it seems to me that I mean I have to look at it again to see whether it can really do what we want but if we use the ATLAS external file representation it seems like it s rich enough that you could do quick tools just as I said in Perl and then later on if we choose to go up the learning curve we can use the whole ATLAS inter infrastructure PhD F: I mean that sounds good to me Grad C: which has all that built in PhD F: I I do not So if if you would l look at that and let us know what you think I mean I think we are sort of guinea pigs cuz I I want to get the prosody work done but I do not want to waste time you know getting the Grad C: Well I would not wait for the formats because anything you pick we will be able to translate to another form PhD A: Well Ma well maybe you should actually look at it yourself too to get a sense of what it is you will you will be dealing with because you know Adam might have one opinion but you might have another so I think the more eyes look at this the better PhD F: Especially if there s e you know if someone can help with at least the the setup of the right the right representation then i you know I hope it will not We do not actually need the whole full blown thing to be ready so so maybe if you guys can look at it and sort of see what I think we are we are we are actually just wrapping up but sorry it s a short meeting but Well I do not know Is there anything else like I mean that helps me a lot Grad C: Well I think the other thing we might want to look at is alternatives to P file I mean th the reason I like P file is I m already familiar with it we have expertise here and so if we pick something else there s the learning curve problem But I mean it is just something we developed at ICSI PhD A: Is there an is there an IP API ? Grad C: There s an API for it And PhD A: There used to be a problem that they get too large Grad C: a bunch of libraries P file utilities PhD A: and so pause basically the the filesystem would not Grad C: Well that s going to be a problem no matter what You have the two gigabyte limit on the filesystem size And we definitely hit that with Broadcast News PhD A: Maybe you could extend the API to support like splitting up you know conceptually one file into smaller files on disk so that you can essentially you know have arbitrarily long f Grad C: Yep Most of the tools can handle that So that we did not do it at the API level We did it at the t tool level That that most many of them can s you can specify several P files and they will just be done sequentially PhD F: So I guess if if you and Don can if you can show him the P file stuff and see So this would be like for the F zero Grad C: I mean if you do `` man P file `` or `` apropos P file `` you will see a lot Grad B: I ve used the P file I think I ve looked at it at least briefly I think when we were doing s something PhD A: What does the P stand for anyway ? Grad C: I did not de I did not develop it You know it was I think it was Dave Johnson So it s all part of the Quicknet library It has all the utilities for it PhD A: No P files were around way before Quicknet P files were were around when w with RAP PhD F: It s like the history of ICSI PhD A: You worked with P files I worked with P files PhD D: I do not remember what the `` P `` is though Grad C: But there are ni they are The pause Quicknet library has a bunch of things in it to handle P files so it works pretty well PhD F: And that is not really I guess as important as the the main I do not know what you call it the the main sort of word level PhD D: Probably stands for `` Phil `` Phil Kohn Grad C: It s a Phil file ? PhD F: Huh OK Well that s really useful I mean this is exactly the kind of thing that I wanted to settle so Grad C: I ve been meaning to look at the ATLAS stuff again anyway PhD F: I guess it s also sort of a political deci I mean if if you feel like that s a community that would be good to tie into anyway then it s sounds like it s worth doing Grad C: I think it it w PhD A: j I think there s Grad C: And w as I said I what I did with this stuff I based it on theirs It s just they had not actually come up with an external format yet So now that they have come up with a format it does not it seems pretty reasonable to use it But let me look at it again PhD F: Cuz we actually can start Grad C: There s one level there s one more level of indirection and I m just blanking on exactly how it works I got to look at it again PhD F: I mean we can start with I guess this input from Dave s which you had printed out the channelized input Cuz he has all of the channels you know with the channels in the tag and stuff like that So that would be i directly Grad C: Yep Easy easy to map

Since the team is familiar with Perl and a flat file format is easier, it was suggested that the cost of learning a new framework, like ATLAS, might be too high. It was suggested that ATLAS be used for the external file representation initially, and if it seems suitable, then it should be adopted in its entirety. P files were also discussed but the problem with them was that they could still get pretty big.

Grad C: I guess I m just a little hesitant to try to go whole hog on sort of the the whole framework that that NIST is talking about with ATLAS and a database and all that sort of stuff cuz it s a big learning curve just to get going Whereas if we just do a flat file format sure it may not be as efficient but everyone can program in Perl and and use it PhD A: I I m still not convinced that you can do much at all on the text on the flat file that that you know the text representation e Because the text representation is going to be not reflecting the structure of of your words and annotations It s just it s Grad C: Well if it s not representing it then how do you recover it ? Of course it s representing it

C thought that other options have a big learning curve, which should be taken into account, and that a flat format works well. A flat file format may not be fast, but everyone can handle it. C believed that quick and dirty solutions should be balanced with long-term infrastructural solutions. For instance, Perl can be paired with external representations of ATLAS files to create a working system. C also suggested that alternatives to P files might be interesting too, though the disadvantage would, once again, be the learning curve.

Grad C: For Perl if you want to just do Perl If you wanted to use the structured XML query language that s a different thing And it s a set of tools that let you specify given the D DDT DTD of the document what sorts of structural searches you want to do So you want to say that you know you are looking for a tag within a tag within a particular tag that has this particular text in it and refers to a particular value And so the point is not that an end user who is looking for a query like you specified would not program it in this language What you would do is someone would build a tool that used that as a library So that they so that you would not have to construct the internal representations yourself PhD F: Is a See I think the kinds of questions at least in the next to the end of this year are there may be a lot of different ones but they will all have a similar nature They will be looking at either a word level prosodic an a value like a continuous value like the slope of something But you know we will do something where we some kind of data reduction where the prosodic features are sort o either at the word level or at the segment level or or something like that They are not going to be at the phone level and they are no not going to be at the frame level when we get done with sort of giving them simpler shapes and things And so the main thing is just being able Well I guess the two goals one that Chuck mentioned is starting out with something that we do not have to start over that we do not have to throw away if other people want to extend it for other kinds of questions and being able to at least get enough information out on where we condition the location of features on information that s in the kind of file that you pause put up there And that would that would do it Grad C: I think that there are quick and dirty solutions and then there are long term big infrastructure solutions And so we want to try to pick something that let us us do a little bit of both PhD F: In the between right And especially that the representation does not have to be thrown away

F wanted to ensure that prosodic features could be dealt with at the level of small linguistic units. F proposed that they be attached to the word or segment level with the option of extracting smaller units. This would allow the team to keep what they have without starting over.

User Interface: How do you wear this thing ? Not too many cables and stuff Project Manager: Is recorded ? ? so welcome everyone So we are here for the kickoff meeting of the process of designing a new remote control So I will first start with a warm welcome opening stuff then we will see what will be our product and what will be the different step we will have to design it And then we will discuss if we have few ideas and we will end by dispatching the different task you will be you will have to fulfil to complete this process So User Interface: Just one thing you said twentyfive minutes but I have something else to do so got to have another meeting soon so maybe you could hurry up a bit It is true I have another meeting so if you could Project Manager: You have another meeting soon ? So you have to be quick So the the goal is to have a remote control so to have an advantage over our competitors we have to be original we have to be trendy and we have to also try to be userfriendly So the design step will be divided in three main points First it will be the functional design Third is the conceptual design and then is the desired design So the functional design is to identify the main user needs the technical function the remote control should fulfil And then we will move to f conceptual design where we will specify the different component involved what kind of user interf interface we want and what are the different trend in user interface and stuff like that

Mutual greeting heralded the beginning of the meeting and the goal of the new remote control project was introduced by Project Manager to the conferees as to win over competitive products by being original, trendy and user-friendly. Then Project Manager continued with the introduction of the design process, which was divided into three main parts—functional design, conceptual design and desired design that respectively focused on the user-related technical functions, desirable user interface and different trends involved, and specific implementation and choice-detailing process of conceptual design.

Project Manager: Do you have any idea of which animal you want to show us ? User Interface: Can I give you the no ? But I do not have to say anything When I am drawing the orangutan Project Manager: If you want to react about this wonderful drawing I will let you comment User Interface: It is an abstract drawing of an orangutan Project Manager: it is an abstract drawing I think it is nice and original Industrial Designer: You should write y the name I think User Interface: I do not have a red colour Usually orangutans have red hair so this is a very important but I do not have red pen so Project Manager: You want to draw something Christine ? Marketing: sorry You have to imagine a little bit Project Manager: Of course your animal is recorded so it is not lost User Interface: Wha what is this strange beast ? Is it a monster ? Marketing: Do you know ? It is a cat User Interface: It is a cat ? I thought these things did not exist Does have a name ? Project Manager: Olivier do you want to Industrial Designer: And you I think I am too short for the cables Project Manager: I go but next time you will do something I am sure I am a bit short on cable So what could I draw ? Maybe I can draw like a very simplified cow I do not know if it looks like a cow User Interface: He looks like a bong Project Manager: I do not know it it looks more like a donkey in fact I would say User Interface: I I think we will be finished this Project Manager: so I hope that it helps you in the process of designing a remote control

Project Manager recommended a drawing activity of conferees’ favourite animals with the aim of inspiring and contributing to the design process of the remote control.

User Interface: I is there a matter for a new remote control ? Project Manager: if it is trendy original I d fulfil the user needs User Interface: Is it a single device remote control or is it a multidevice remote control ? Project Manager: We have to discuss that point User Interface: this is not defined at all ? Project Manager: you you can suggest points like this So what what so we have to decide for example if it can control one device or multiple So what is what are your ideas about that ? Maybe I can have the your opinion from the marketing side ? User Interface: Well do we sell other stuff ? if if we bundle the remote control with something to sell then it could be a single device otherwise it could be programmable one otherwise who would buy a remote control from us Project Manager: so if it selled by its own i it it would rather be for multiple device So maybe it should be for multiple devices And do you have any ideas of design ideas or any technical requirement we we should fulfil ? Industrial Designer: I think we should not have too many b for my part I think User Interface: No I couldn I can not fi think of any requirements right now Industrial Designer: If we do not have so many buttons could be nice Project Manager: And do you have it also to be to be lighted in order to be used in the dark ? Might be a good idea And do you have any any idea of the trend the trend in domain what it should not it should look like or things like that ? Industrial Designer: Something which is not squarey maybe not a box User Interface: Something like that least fits in your hand Project Manager: So Fit in your hand And also it have i it may be it may be important for the remote control to be To to resist to various shocks that can happen if it fall Industrial Designer: And I think we should have a device Project Manager: Maybe it is original because you can use it in your in your bath whereas the others can not Maybe waterproof would be very original Havin having a waterproof remote control so that the people can use it in their bath User Interface: B it seems so but if you do not have an waterproof remote control it means you can just cover it with some plastic and you can sort of f Project Manager: but it is still something you have to buy and that is not maybe very User Interface: And and that is one of the that is one of the shock I mean there are people that have a remote control and they are worried that it is going to break and they put some extra plastic around it That is people they actually do it themselves Project Manager: But maybe we can bulk it with already this plastic thing and the waterproof stuff as well User Interface: I it will look a bulky in that case Project Manager: Maybe we can sell all that together so so plastic protection and and a waterproof box as well That might be good track to follow User Interface: Like as an optional thing Project Manager: Optional or selled with it ? Industrial Designer: And I I think we should have something most of the time I I lose my remote control We should have s special bu button on the TV to make the remote control beeping Project Manager: Maybe we can have But we do not design the TV Maybe we can have something you whistle and the remote control beep So we can have a whistle remote control ? I do not know whistleable ? Th Whistle tracking Whistle tracking remote control That is a good idea that is very original and that is can improve User Interface: That is that is quite cool but of course we you do not normally need any audio recording stuff on your remote control right ? So i it is just going to add t to the cost Project Manager: but s still we have to mm we have to have an advantage over our competitors I think this is a good advantage

Given the customer demand and conferees personal experiences, several designing requirements were proposed during the discussion. The remote control was decided to be adaptable to multiple devices with few buttons, be able to be lighted in the dark and held in hand, and be both water-proof and shock-proof along with a whistle tracking system, based on which advantage over competitors might well be gained at the price of a rising production cost.

Industrial Designer: And I think we should have a device Project Manager: Maybe it is original because you can use it in your in your bath whereas the others can not Maybe waterproof would be very original Havin having a waterproof remote control so that the people can use it in their bath User Interface: B it seems so but if you do not have an waterproof remote control it means you can just cover it with some plastic and you can sort of f Project Manager: but it is still something you have to buy and that is not maybe very

Considering the product originality, Project Manager believed that a water-proof remote control could be used in the bath conveniently while saving the customer’s need to purchase an extra plastic cover. Therefore, originality and competitiveness might be gained over competitive products.

User Interface: And and that is one of the that is one of the shock I mean there are people that have a remote control and they are worried that it is going to break and they put some extra plastic around it That is people they actually do it themselves Project Manager: But maybe we can bulk it with already this plastic thing and the waterproof stuff as well User Interface: I it will look a bulky in that case Project Manager: Maybe we can sell all that together so so plastic protection and and a waterproof box as well That might be good track to follow User Interface: Like as an optional thing Project Manager: Optional or selled with it ? Industrial Designer: And I I think we should have something most of the time I I lose my remote control

Conferees agreed that the remote control could be sold with optional plastic protection and water-proof box for customers to choose.

Industrial Designer: And I I think we should have something most of the time I I lose my remote control We should have s special bu button on the TV to make the remote control beeping Project Manager: Maybe we can have But we do not design the TV Maybe we can have something you whistle and the remote control beep So we can have a whistle remote control ? I do not know whistleable ? Th Whistle tracking Whistle tracking remote control That is a good idea that is very original and that is can improve

Industrial Designer first recommended adding a special beeping button on the TV set to remind users of where the remote controls were, but the plan was deemed impractical concerning TV sets that were not designed by them. Then Project Manager suggested whistle tracking and was approved by all the conferees as an original improvement.

Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Chair What is the Welsh Government doing to address the big differences in the amount of early childhood education and care provision available in different parts of Wales ? Julie Morgan AM: Right Well thank you very much for that question I mean obviously it would be good to see a greater degree of consistency but I think it is important to acknowledge that there are reasons for that variation Now early education of course is the responsibility of the Minister for Education and we are aware that different local authorities have adopted different patterns of providing early education For example local authorities are funded to provide 10 hours minimum of the foundation phase for three and fouryearolds across Wales but there is quite a variance in how much is actually provided with some local authorities providing a lot more historically So it does mean that there is a different pattern across Wales according to what local authorities do But what I could say is of course the quality is very good as the Estyn reports have shown that the quality provided the delivery of the foundation phase is very good But it does vary in terms of what is offered throughout Wales and that is the decision of the local authorities and it is a historical thing I refer to this pilot in Flint which is trying to test paying the same rate for foundation phase and childcare We are going to have an independent evaluation on that soon in November this year so that will help us Obviously I think local authorities role in all this is absolutely crucial because they are the local nearest people to decide how things develop in their own areas And then of course we have got Flying Start which is geographically targeted which uses the data from income benefit to decide which are the areas where that is being delivered And that is delivered where the highest proportion of children aged nought to three are living in incomedependent households So again that determines the pattern throughout Wales With Flying Start being geographically targeted with the education being determined by the local authorities about how much there is we know that there is a variance throughout Wales We would like to see facilities developed in each local authority throughout Wales that would answer the needs of the families and the children in those areas Lynne Neagle AM: Before you move on Janet Siâns got a supplementary Sian Gwenllian AM: Just in terms of the foundation phase there have been cuts of course in expenditure in that phase How concerned are you about that and the impact that that will have on the way in which the foundation phase is taught in our schools ? The foundation phase is now part of the education improvement grant which has seen a reduction of 10 per cent and it has to compete against other expenditure streams within that greater pot of funding So are you concerned that money is being lost and that that will have an impact on standards in the foundation phase ? Julie Morgan AM: I have not seen any evidence Obviously I must reiterate the foundation phase does come under the Minister for Education but I have not seen any evidence of any standards being lowered and the reports from Estyn are very good In fact I think the foundation phase is one of our great joys that we absolutely celebrate it and so I would be very concerned if I thought there was any drop in standards in the foundation phase and I certainly have not had any evidence of that I would want to guard against that Sian Gwenllian AM: Exactly but if there are fewer teaching assistants in the system because of the cuts it is going to impact on standards at the end of the day Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to be very careful to see that lower standards are not implemented because it was groundbreaking when we brought it in and it has proved to be a great success so we want to make sure that is guarded Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Going back to my original question about the big differences in amounts of early childhood education and care provision in different parts of Wales the Welsh and UK Governments have followed a demanddriven approach to the childcare market with subsidies mainly given to working parents Is that a mistake ? Should it be more universally available ? Julie Morgan AM: Well some of our provision is universally available in certain areas For example the Flying Start provision is universally available in geographically defined areas and I think that is very important because that does mean that there is not stigma and soin those areas everybody can take advantage of it and yet it is reaching those who are most in need because it is reaching those areas So I think that there is a purpose behind that In terms of when you say demand led could you elaborate on that ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I know that—we have just had a useful briefing from David Dallimore and basically there is this theory that there are too many resources—the demanddriven approach is based more on certain factors : geographic spread in terms of it being more universal and whether that is the right way How do children then mix with peers from different backgrounds in their own peer or age group ? Nicola Edwards: Inaudible—because the offer is targeted at working parents— —obviously then the amount of availability is based on how many parents apply for it and take it up Is that the context of demand led in that— Julie Morgan AM: It is universally available to all parents who meet the eligibility criteria of working and I think what you are saying is that it should be available to everybody Lynne Neagle AM: I think the point that Janets making is that some areas have traditionally got more childcare anyway because they have traditionally had more demand in those areas so there is not a level playing field to start from Is that correct ?

Julie Morgan insisted that they were aware that different local authorities actually had adopted different patterns of providing early education. And with the Flying Start programme being geographically targeted, with the education being determined by the local authorities, they knew that there was a variance throughout Wales. Then they would like to see facilities developed in each local authority throughout Wales that would answer the needs of the families and the children in those areas. And It was demand-led and universally available to all parents who meet the eligibility criteria of working, so they believed the programme should be available to everybody.

Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Going back to my original question about the big differences in amounts of early childhood education and care provision in different parts of Wales the Welsh and UK Governments have followed a demanddriven approach to the childcare market with subsidies mainly given to working parents Is that a mistake ? Should it be more universally available ? Julie Morgan AM: Well some of our provision is universally available in certain areas For example the Flying Start provision is universally available in geographically defined areas and I think that is very important because that does mean that there is not stigma and soin those areas everybody can take advantage of it and yet it is reaching those who are most in need because it is reaching those areas So I think that there is a purpose behind that In terms of when you say demand led could you elaborate on that ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I know that—we have just had a useful briefing from David Dallimore and basically there is this theory that there are too many resources—the demanddriven approach is based more on certain factors : geographic spread in terms of it being more universal and whether that is the right way How do children then mix with peers from different backgrounds in their own peer or age group ? Nicola Edwards: Inaudible—because the offer is targeted at working parents— —obviously then the amount of availability is based on how many parents apply for it and take it up Is that the context of demand led in that— Julie Morgan AM: It is universally available to all parents who meet the eligibility criteria of working and I think what you are saying is that it should be available to everybody Lynne Neagle AM: I think the point that Janets making is that some areas have traditionally got more childcare anyway because they have traditionally had more demand in those areas so there is not a level playing field to start from Is that correct ?

The Welsh and UK Governments had followed a demand-driven approach to the childcare market, with subsidies mainly given to working parents, which was a mistake and should be more universally available. The demand-driven approach was based more on certain factors: geographic spread in terms of it being more universal, and whether that's the right way. It was hard for children to mix with peers from different backgrounds and age groups? Next, some areas had traditionally got more childcare anyway because they had traditionally more demand in those areas, so there was not a level playing field to start from.

Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you I have got some questions now from Janet FinchSaunders Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Chair What is the Welsh Government doing to address the big differences in the amount of early childhood education and care provision available in different parts of Wales ? Julie Morgan AM: Right Well thank you very much for that question I mean obviously it would be good to see a greater degree of consistency but I think it is important to acknowledge that there are reasons for that variation Now early education of course is the responsibility of the Minister for Education and we are aware that different local authorities have adopted different patterns of providing early education For example local authorities are funded to provide 10 hours minimum of the foundation phase for three and fouryearolds across Wales but there is quite a variance in how much is actually provided with some local authorities providing a lot more historically So it does mean that there is a different pattern across Wales according to what local authorities do But what I could say is of course the quality is very good as the Estyn reports have shown that the quality provided the delivery of the foundation phase is very good But it does vary in terms of what is offered throughout Wales and that is the decision of the local authorities and it is a historical thing I refer to this pilot in Flint which is trying to test paying the same rate for foundation phase and childcare We are going to have an independent evaluation on that soon in November this year so that will help us Obviously I think local authorities role in all this is absolutely crucial because they are the local nearest people to decide how things develop in their own areas And then of course we have got Flying Start which is geographically targeted which uses the data from income benefit to decide which are the areas where that is being delivered And that is delivered where the highest proportion of children aged nought to three are living in incomedependent households So again that determines the pattern throughout Wales With Flying Start being geographically targeted with the education being determined by the local authorities about how much there is we know that there is a variance throughout Wales We would like to see facilities developed in each local authority throughout Wales that would answer the needs of the families and the children in those areas Lynne Neagle AM: Before you move on Janet Siâns got a supplementary Sian Gwenllian AM: Just in terms of the foundation phase there have been cuts of course in expenditure in that phase How concerned are you about that and the impact that that will have on the way in which the foundation phase is taught in our schools ? The foundation phase is now part of the education improvement grant which has seen a reduction of 10 per cent and it has to compete against other expenditure streams within that greater pot of funding So are you concerned that money is being lost and that that will have an impact on standards in the foundation phase ? Julie Morgan AM: I have not seen any evidence Obviously I must reiterate the foundation phase does come under the Minister for Education but I have not seen any evidence of any standards being lowered and the reports from Estyn are very good In fact I think the foundation phase is one of our great joys that we absolutely celebrate it and so I would be very concerned if I thought there was any drop in standards in the foundation phase and I certainly have not had any evidence of that I would want to guard against that Sian Gwenllian AM: Exactly but if there are fewer teaching assistants in the system because of the cuts it is going to impact on standards at the end of the day Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to be very careful to see that lower standards are not implemented because it was groundbreaking when we brought it in and it has proved to be a great success so we want to make sure that is guarded Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Going back to my original question about the big differences in amounts of early childhood education and care provision in different parts of Wales the Welsh and UK Governments have followed a demanddriven approach to the childcare market with subsidies mainly given to working parents Is that a mistake ? Should it be more universally available ? Julie Morgan AM: Well some of our provision is universally available in certain areas For example the Flying Start provision is universally available in geographically defined areas and I think that is very important because that does mean that there is not stigma and soin those areas everybody can take advantage of it and yet it is reaching those who are most in need because it is reaching those areas So I think that there is a purpose behind that In terms of when you say demand led could you elaborate on that ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I know that—we have just had a useful briefing from David Dallimore and basically there is this theory that there are too many resources—the demanddriven approach is based more on certain factors : geographic spread in terms of it being more universal and whether that is the right way How do children then mix with peers from different backgrounds in their own peer or age group ? Nicola Edwards: Inaudible—because the offer is targeted at working parents— —obviously then the amount of availability is based on how many parents apply for it and take it up Is that the context of demand led in that— Julie Morgan AM: It is universally available to all parents who meet the eligibility criteria of working and I think what you are saying is that it should be available to everybody Lynne Neagle AM: I think the point that Janets making is that some areas have traditionally got more childcare anyway because they have traditionally had more demand in those areas so there is not a level playing field to start from Is that correct ? Julie Morgan AM: I think that historically that is definitely true and when you look at the takeup of the childcare offer it is certainly taken up in some areas with a very high takeup rate I think Ynys Môn was nearly 90 per cent or something— Sian Gwenllian AM: They need more money because they have not got enough funding No to meet the demand Julie Morgan AM: In other areas it is much much lower—in some of the cities I know So there is a big range in takeup— Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So do you intend to bring something forward to address that ? Julie Morgan AM: We are planning to extend it We are looking at the possibility of extending it to parents who are in education and training So we are widening the offer yes Obviously we have to wait for the evaluation of that It would be great to be able to offer it to absolutely everybody but obviously we have got the finance to look at in terms of how we do that But we are certainly planning to expand it Lynne Neagle AM: We have got questions on the offer in a little while Janet Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Does the Welsh Government intend to develop an integrated approach then against all settings ? If so given the current inconsistencies how can quality be assured ? Julie Morgan AM: We are developing a more integrated approach towards the early years As I have said we are trying to have the foundation phase operating in more nonmaintained settings and we are already developing that But Estyn and CIW will continue to inspect and regulate the early years sector to ensure standards and since January 2019 CIW and Estyn have moved to joint inspections for the nonmaintained settings that are offering the foundation phase So that is a very positive move I think and is absolutely making sure that standards are maintained because if we are having the foundation phase in nonmaintained settings that is a challenge where we want to be sure that the standards and the philosophy of the foundation phase are maintained So we have got the system of inspection to ensure that

The team was aware that different local authorities actually had adopted different patterns of providing early education. And with the Flying Start programme being geographically targeted, with the education being determined by the local authorities, they knew that there was a variance throughout Wales. Next some of their care provision was universally available in certain areas. Then historically, that was definitely true, and they were certainly planning to expand it, developing a more integrated approach towards the early years. Finally they had got the system of inspection to ensure that.

Sian Gwenllian AM: No to meet the demand Julie Morgan AM: In other areas it is much much lower—in some of the cities I know So there is a big range in takeup— Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So do you intend to bring something forward to address that ? Julie Morgan AM: We are planning to extend it We are looking at the possibility of extending it to parents who are in education and training So we are widening the offer yes Obviously we have to wait for the evaluation of that It would be great to be able to offer it to absolutely everybody but obviously we have got the finance to look at in terms of how we do that But we are certainly planning to expand it Lynne Neagle AM: We have got questions on the offer in a little while Janet Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Does the Welsh Government intend to develop an integrated approach then against all settings ? If so given the current inconsistencies how can quality be assured ? Julie Morgan AM: We are developing a more integrated approach towards the early years As I have said we are trying to have the foundation phase operating in more nonmaintained settings and we are already developing that But Estyn and CIW will continue to inspect and regulate the early years sector to ensure standards and since January 2019 CIW and Estyn have moved to joint inspections for the nonmaintained settings that are offering the foundation phase So that is a very positive move I think and is absolutely making sure that standards are maintained because if we are having the foundation phase in nonmaintained settings that is a challenge where we want to be sure that the standards and the philosophy of the foundation phase are maintained So we have got the system of inspection to ensure that Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And finally from me what specific steps have been put in place to take forward the commitments from the Welsh Governments 2017 childcareplay early years workforce plan to build a better understanding of the workforces Welsh language skills to enable support for the sector to be targeted and to identify where capacity needs to be built for the future to meet the needs of the early years sector in a bilingual Wales ? Julie Morgan AM: We think this is very important and we are pleased that 29 per cent of children taking up the childcare offer are in Welsh or bilingual settings so we think that is very good We have established a specific programme to develop Welsh language skills in the childcare and play workforce with the National Centre for Learning Welsh to develop workplace Welsh language skills across the sector So we are actually working with that and I think you have done something with those recently have not you ? I do not know if you want to— Nicola Edwards: Yes So we have a stakeholder group where we have brought together a variety of people with an interest in the early years childcare and play sectors and we had a presentation just last month from the national language centre about the education programmes that they are rolling out and how this is all coming together which is quite interesting We have been working quite carefully to make sure that the variety of workbased learning programmes that we provide and offer are also available in Welsh and bilingually Recruitment and retention within the childcare and play sector is quite challenging in any case Recruiting and retaining staff with really good Welsh language skills adds an extra dimension to it and that it is a point that Mudiad Meithrin makes to us quite regularly that they do struggle to find staff with the right skills So upskilling the existing workforce is a key part of it but also doing more to attract people in with Welsh language skills in the first place in terms of the training courses that we are taking forward and thinking about that in the context of the targets within Cymraeg 2050 and the aim to get to one million Welsh speakers So as the Deputy Minister said we have got quite a number of children accessing the offer in Welshmedium or bilingual settings at the moment We are going to be doing some baselining work against that in terms of local authorities Welsh in education strategic plans and education places and what we can then do to increase the number of childcare places in parallel with that so that you can make sure that you start that pathway through learning Welsh interacting with education and childcare through Welsh at a much earlier stage Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy you have got a supplementary Suzy Davies AM: Just on this early point anybody who is been through the Welsh education system which is 20 years now will have some Welsh language skills obviously to differing degrees For the entrants that are coming into childcare training now there are going to be very few of them realistically with no Welsh at all so what is actually being incorporated into the early years care training to make sure at that stage that the Welsh language skills are being developed as opposed to an addon later on ? Nicola Edwards: You are quite right Most people coming through the education system will have some awareness of Welsh although I think it is probably important to remember we do also employ people from outside of wales Suzy Davies AM: Yes but the majority being realistic Nicola Edwards: But they do not necessarily have Welsh that is appropriate They have got Welsh that they have developed in school It is not necessarily appropriate for then teaching that language to children who may be coming from families who do not use Welsh at home So that might be the first interaction that child has with the language So there is a lot of that in terms of child development and how you develop children bilingually particularly if they are coming from Englishmedium homes and reinforcing the language in language choices There will also be some people who are perhaps—we see this quite a lot in the office—quite confident in terms of speaking Welsh but less so in terms of some of the paperwork the reporting the writing and the interacting with parents more officially which we need to think about as well But it is mainly about getting people to a point where they can transmit that language onwards in a confident and meaningful way Suzy Davies AM: And it is ingrained in the early years training

Janet Finch-Saunders believed that the Welsh and UK Governments had followed a demand-driven approach to the childcare market, with subsidies mainly given to working parents, so there was not a level playing field to start from. However, Julie Morgan insisted that some of their provision was universally available in certain areas. Hence historically that was definitely true of the programme. Then they were certainly planning to expand the programme, which is believed to be a demand-led approach. Last they were managing it within the normal budgetary process, developing a more integrated approach towards the early years, and had got the system of inspection to ensure that.

Sian Gwenllian AM: No to meet the demand Julie Morgan AM: In other areas it is much much lower—in some of the cities I know So there is a big range in takeup— Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So do you intend to bring something forward to address that ? Julie Morgan AM: We are planning to extend it We are looking at the possibility of extending it to parents who are in education and training So we are widening the offer yes Obviously we have to wait for the evaluation of that It would be great to be able to offer it to absolutely everybody but obviously we have got the finance to look at in terms of how we do that But we are certainly planning to expand it Lynne Neagle AM: We have got questions on the offer in a little while Janet Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Does the Welsh Government intend to develop an integrated approach then against all settings ? If so given the current inconsistencies how can quality be assured ? Julie Morgan AM: We are developing a more integrated approach towards the early years As I have said we are trying to have the foundation phase operating in more nonmaintained settings and we are already developing that But Estyn and CIW will continue to inspect and regulate the early years sector to ensure standards and since January 2019 CIW and Estyn have moved to joint inspections for the nonmaintained settings that are offering the foundation phase So that is a very positive move I think and is absolutely making sure that standards are maintained because if we are having the foundation phase in nonmaintained settings that is a challenge where we want to be sure that the standards and the philosophy of the foundation phase are maintained So we have got the system of inspection to ensure that

Julie Morgan insisted that some of their provision was universally available in certain areas. Hence historically that was definitely true of the programme. Then they were certainly planning to expand the programme, which is believed to be a demand-led approach. Last they were managing it within the normal budgetary process, developing a more integrated approach towards the early years, and had got the system of inspection to ensure that.

Sian Gwenllian AM: Just in terms of the foundation phase there have been cuts of course in expenditure in that phase How concerned are you about that and the impact that that will have on the way in which the foundation phase is taught in our schools ? The foundation phase is now part of the education improvement grant which has seen a reduction of 10 per cent and it has to compete against other expenditure streams within that greater pot of funding So are you concerned that money is being lost and that that will have an impact on standards in the foundation phase ? Julie Morgan AM: I have not seen any evidence Obviously I must reiterate the foundation phase does come under the Minister for Education but I have not seen any evidence of any standards being lowered and the reports from Estyn are very good In fact I think the foundation phase is one of our great joys that we absolutely celebrate it and so I would be very concerned if I thought there was any drop in standards in the foundation phase and I certainly have not had any evidence of that I would want to guard against that Sian Gwenllian AM: Exactly but if there are fewer teaching assistants in the system because of the cuts it is going to impact on standards at the end of the day Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to be very careful to see that lower standards are not implemented because it was groundbreaking when we brought it in and it has proved to be a great success so we want to make sure that is guarded Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Going back to my original question about the big differences in amounts of early childhood education and care provision in different parts of Wales the Welsh and UK Governments have followed a demanddriven approach to the childcare market with subsidies mainly given to working parents Is that a mistake ? Should it be more universally available ? Julie Morgan AM: Well some of our provision is universally available in certain areas For example the Flying Start provision is universally available in geographically defined areas and I think that is very important because that does mean that there is not stigma and soin those areas everybody can take advantage of it and yet it is reaching those who are most in need because it is reaching those areas So I think that there is a purpose behind that In terms of when you say demand led could you elaborate on that ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I know that—we have just had a useful briefing from David Dallimore and basically there is this theory that there are too many resources—the demanddriven approach is based more on certain factors : geographic spread in terms of it being more universal and whether that is the right way How do children then mix with peers from different backgrounds in their own peer or age group ? Nicola Edwards: Inaudible—because the offer is targeted at working parents— —obviously then the amount of availability is based on how many parents apply for it and take it up Is that the context of demand led in that— Julie Morgan AM: It is universally available to all parents who meet the eligibility criteria of working and I think what you are saying is that it should be available to everybody Lynne Neagle AM: I think the point that Janets making is that some areas have traditionally got more childcare anyway because they have traditionally had more demand in those areas so there is not a level playing field to start from Is that correct ? Julie Morgan AM: I think that historically that is definitely true and when you look at the takeup of the childcare offer it is certainly taken up in some areas with a very high takeup rate I think Ynys Môn was nearly 90 per cent or something— Sian Gwenllian AM: They need more money because they have not got enough funding No to meet the demand Julie Morgan AM: In other areas it is much much lower—in some of the cities I know So there is a big range in takeup— Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So do you intend to bring something forward to address that ? Julie Morgan AM: We are planning to extend it We are looking at the possibility of extending it to parents who are in education and training So we are widening the offer yes Obviously we have to wait for the evaluation of that It would be great to be able to offer it to absolutely everybody but obviously we have got the finance to look at in terms of how we do that But we are certainly planning to expand it Lynne Neagle AM: We have got questions on the offer in a little while Janet Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Does the Welsh Government intend to develop an integrated approach then against all settings ? If so given the current inconsistencies how can quality be assured ? Julie Morgan AM: We are developing a more integrated approach towards the early years As I have said we are trying to have the foundation phase operating in more nonmaintained settings and we are already developing that But Estyn and CIW will continue to inspect and regulate the early years sector to ensure standards and since January 2019 CIW and Estyn have moved to joint inspections for the nonmaintained settings that are offering the foundation phase So that is a very positive move I think and is absolutely making sure that standards are maintained because if we are having the foundation phase in nonmaintained settings that is a challenge where we want to be sure that the standards and the philosophy of the foundation phase are maintained So we have got the system of inspection to ensure that

Julie Morgan certainly plans to expand the programme, which is believed to be a demand-led approach. Last they were managing it within the normal budgetary process, developing a more integrated approach towards the early years, and had got the system of inspection to ensure that. Because some of their provision was universally available in certain areas. Hence historically that was definitely true of the programme.

Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And finally from me what specific steps have been put in place to take forward the commitments from the Welsh Governments 2017 childcareplay early years workforce plan to build a better understanding of the workforces Welsh language skills to enable support for the sector to be targeted and to identify where capacity needs to be built for the future to meet the needs of the early years sector in a bilingual Wales ? Julie Morgan AM: We think this is very important and we are pleased that 29 per cent of children taking up the childcare offer are in Welsh or bilingual settings so we think that is very good We have established a specific programme to develop Welsh language skills in the childcare and play workforce with the National Centre for Learning Welsh to develop workplace Welsh language skills across the sector So we are actually working with that and I think you have done something with those recently have not you ? I do not know if you want to— Nicola Edwards: Yes So we have a stakeholder group where we have brought together a variety of people with an interest in the early years childcare and play sectors and we had a presentation just last month from the national language centre about the education programmes that they are rolling out and how this is all coming together which is quite interesting We have been working quite carefully to make sure that the variety of workbased learning programmes that we provide and offer are also available in Welsh and bilingually Recruitment and retention within the childcare and play sector is quite challenging in any case Recruiting and retaining staff with really good Welsh language skills adds an extra dimension to it and that it is a point that Mudiad Meithrin makes to us quite regularly that they do struggle to find staff with the right skills So upskilling the existing workforce is a key part of it but also doing more to attract people in with Welsh language skills in the first place in terms of the training courses that we are taking forward and thinking about that in the context of the targets within Cymraeg 2050 and the aim to get to one million Welsh speakers So as the Deputy Minister said we have got quite a number of children accessing the offer in Welshmedium or bilingual settings at the moment We are going to be doing some baselining work against that in terms of local authorities Welsh in education strategic plans and education places and what we can then do to increase the number of childcare places in parallel with that so that you can make sure that you start that pathway through learning Welsh interacting with education and childcare through Welsh at a much earlier stage Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy you have got a supplementary Suzy Davies AM: Just on this early point anybody who is been through the Welsh education system which is 20 years now will have some Welsh language skills obviously to differing degrees For the entrants that are coming into childcare training now there are going to be very few of them realistically with no Welsh at all so what is actually being incorporated into the early years care training to make sure at that stage that the Welsh language skills are being developed as opposed to an addon later on ? Nicola Edwards: You are quite right Most people coming through the education system will have some awareness of Welsh although I think it is probably important to remember we do also employ people from outside of wales Suzy Davies AM: Yes but the majority being realistic Nicola Edwards: But they do not necessarily have Welsh that is appropriate They have got Welsh that they have developed in school It is not necessarily appropriate for then teaching that language to children who may be coming from families who do not use Welsh at home So that might be the first interaction that child has with the language So there is a lot of that in terms of child development and how you develop children bilingually particularly if they are coming from Englishmedium homes and reinforcing the language in language choices There will also be some people who are perhaps—we see this quite a lot in the office—quite confident in terms of speaking Welsh but less so in terms of some of the paperwork the reporting the writing and the interacting with parents more officially which we need to think about as well But it is mainly about getting people to a point where they can transmit that language onwards in a confident and meaningful way Suzy Davies AM: And it is ingrained in the early years training That is fine Thank you for that Thank you Chair Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move on you said that 29 per cent of the takeup of the childcare offer is either through Welsh or is bilingual Have you got any figures about how many children are accessing it in Welsh only ? Nicola Edwards: We will have It becomes— With the way we do it it is because of the way that the setting defines their language category and that is how we collect it We do go down to individual child level although it is anonymised data collection on a termly basis So I will have a look and see if we can send you through the last term Lynne Neagle AM: Maybe if the committee could have a note that would be really useful We have got some questions now on childcare from Dawn Bowden Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair Deputy Minister the evaluation of the childcare offer when it was published last year said that there was very little evidence currently available to determine what its impact was You are going to be producing a second evaluation in November this year do you expect to see some indications now of the impact ? Julie Morgan AM: Well the evaluation of the first year of the childcare offer was very limited because the childcare offer was not available throughout the whole of Wales And it was a very early implementation phase So obviously it takes time to grow And the evaluation for year 2 I think will also show a limited impact for the same reasons The offer became available across the whole of Wales only last April So we have only got since last April that it is actually been fully available And the parental survey was released to parents in June 2019 therefore any impact on parents in the authorities coming on board in the second year will also be negligible So it is from the next one however we hope that we will get more information Dawn Bowden AM: So you think by the time we get to November 2020 you might have a better picture Julie Morgan AM: The evaluation will be more meaningful we think then yes

Julie Morgan thought the demand was very important, and they were pleased that 29 per cent of children taking up the childcare offer were in Welsh or bilingual settings, so that they established a specific programme to develop Welsh language skills in the childcare and played workforce with the National Centre for Learning Welsh to develop workplace Welsh language skills across the sector. But Suzy Davies thought that just on this early point, anybody who had been through the Welsh education system which is 20 years now, would have Welsh language skills obviously to differing degrees. Next, Nicola Edwards alleged that it was not necessarily appropriate for teaching language to children, because they might be coming from families who didn't use Welsh at home, but it is mainly about getting people to a point where they can transmit that language onwards in a confident and meaningful way.

Nicola Edwards: But they do not necessarily have Welsh that is appropriate They have got Welsh that they have developed in school It is not necessarily appropriate for then teaching that language to children who may be coming from families who do not use Welsh at home So that might be the first interaction that child has with the language So there is a lot of that in terms of child development and how you develop children bilingually particularly if they are coming from Englishmedium homes and reinforcing the language in language choices There will also be some people who are perhaps—we see this quite a lot in the office—quite confident in terms of speaking Welsh but less so in terms of some of the paperwork the reporting the writing and the interacting with parents more officially which we need to think about as well But it is mainly about getting people to a point where they can transmit that language onwards in a confident and meaningful way Suzy Davies AM: And it is ingrained in the early years training

Nicola Edwards alleged that it was not necessarily appropriate for teaching language to children, because they might be coming from families who didn't use Welsh at home, but it is mainly about getting people to a point where they can transmit that language onwards in a confident and meaningful way.

Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And finally from me what specific steps have been put in place to take forward the commitments from the Welsh Governments 2017 childcareplay early years workforce plan to build a better understanding of the workforces Welsh language skills to enable support for the sector to be targeted and to identify where capacity needs to be built for the future to meet the needs of the early years sector in a bilingual Wales ? Julie Morgan AM: We think this is very important and we are pleased that 29 per cent of children taking up the childcare offer are in Welsh or bilingual settings so we think that is very good We have established a specific programme to develop Welsh language skills in the childcare and play workforce with the National Centre for Learning Welsh to develop workplace Welsh language skills across the sector So we are actually working with that and I think you have done something with those recently have not you ? I do not know if you want to— Nicola Edwards: Yes So we have a stakeholder group where we have brought together a variety of people with an interest in the early years childcare and play sectors and we had a presentation just last month from the national language centre about the education programmes that they are rolling out and how this is all coming together which is quite interesting We have been working quite carefully to make sure that the variety of workbased learning programmes that we provide and offer are also available in Welsh and bilingually Recruitment and retention within the childcare and play sector is quite challenging in any case Recruiting and retaining staff with really good Welsh language skills adds an extra dimension to it and that it is a point that Mudiad Meithrin makes to us quite regularly that they do struggle to find staff with the right skills So upskilling the existing workforce is a key part of it but also doing more to attract people in with Welsh language skills in the first place in terms of the training courses that we are taking forward and thinking about that in the context of the targets within Cymraeg 2050 and the aim to get to one million Welsh speakers So as the Deputy Minister said we have got quite a number of children accessing the offer in Welshmedium or bilingual settings at the moment We are going to be doing some baselining work against that in terms of local authorities Welsh in education strategic plans and education places and what we can then do to increase the number of childcare places in parallel with that so that you can make sure that you start that pathway through learning Welsh interacting with education and childcare through Welsh at a much earlier stage

Julie Morgan recommended to believe the demand was very important, and to establish a specific programme to develop Welsh language skills in childcare and played workforce with the National Centre for Learning Welsh to develop workplace Welsh language skills across the sector. And also she agreed on Nicola Edwards's idea that they should have a stakeholder group where they had brought together a variety of people with an interest in the early years, childcare and play sectors.

Sian Gwenllian AM: As we know of course the work with Her Majestys Revenue and Customs has ended and I know you were not the Minister who initiated this process but what exactly has gone wrong ? What are these issues that have come to light that have made you suspend that ? It is very frustrating for us as a committee who scrutinised that extensively and raised a lot of concerns about that And a lot of time has been spent talking about this funding Bill and money—£1 million I understand—has been wasted if you like unnecessarily So what exactly has gone wrong ? Why are not you discussing these things with HMRC ? Yes So thank you for that explanation Julie Morgan AM: I have got more to say as well Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes but for your transparency around your particular view that it needs to be more flexible and expanded upon and therefore going down the HMRC route was— Julie Morgan AM: It would have restricted us a lot Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes We knew that from the beginning I mean that is you know— So it was a principle decision rather than any sort of technical matters to do with the Welsh language standards That is been cited as one kind of— But I am really understanding more now that really what it is about is that you want to have a more flexible and expand on the offer and that this would curtail—going through HMRC would put limits on that Julie Morgan AM: That is one of the reasons but there were issues about the Welsh language which we can go into in detail if you would like There were some issues about that They would be able to process things bilingually and I think that was probably told to the committee when we looked at the HMRC But in terms of the Welsh language standards that the Minister has to use there would be some difficulties in them doing it Sian Gwenllian AM: But would you say that your main change came about because you wanted to be more flexible rather than any difficulties— Julie Morgan AM: One of the major reasons I think— But there are— As I say there are other reasons Those technical reasons probably do end up being quite important— Sian Gwenllian AM: But the committee was told by the previous Minister that HMRC would not have any problem at all with delivering according to the Welsh language standards Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to add something to this ? Nicola Edwards: So in terms of some of the technical issues we had if you want to start with the bilingual provision and the Welsh language standards HMRC do provide a bilingual service at the moment for their customers in line with their Welsh language scheme and I think we can all appreciate that schemes are quite different from the requirements of the standards And there were some issues when we got into the detail of the standards that the Welsh Ministers are required to deliver to that caused some concerns in terms of how HMRC were going to do it particularly in terms of the multiple IT systems that go into building up the childcare services So for example there are a number of what are called special characters in the Welsh alphabet such as the to bach for example The HMRC IT system has some issues with that Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes well with due respect the to bach has always been there— Nicola Edwards: Oh yes I completely agree Unfortunately however— Sian Gwenllian AM: —and HMRC would have been able to tell you really early on you would have thought that it was— I do not really want to go into it because I think we have got to the crux of why HMRC was dropped I think it is been dropped because Julie feels that the offer needs to be more flexible and I can understand why you would say that Julie Morgan AM: If we bring in training and education for example we would not be able to do that via the HMRC it would have to be done by the local authorities Foster parents have to be done via the local authorities Any people of immigration status of no resource from public funds that would have to be done via the local authorities And with the local authorities also wanting to do it— I mean there are other things with using HMRC—if any changes were made with the English offer for example because this would be delivered via HMRC with the English offer that would cause difficulties for the Welsh offer So we wanted something more flexible I do not know if there is anything more you want to add on that Jo-Anne Daniels: The only thing I would add is that—and again I think the Minister has referred to this—the costs that HMRC presented us with at the end of the discovery phase were significantly higher than the costs that had initially been outlined and that we outlined to the committee in the regulatory impact assessment So our conclusion is that we can deliver a cheaper system and a system that has the flexibility that the Deputy Minister has referred to by working with local authorities rather than HMRC So there is an important issue around value for money as well and making sure that the investment that we are making into developing the national system is one that—that in a sense that investment stays in Wales So obviously the money that we are paying over to HMRC to run the system would be supporting HMRC and their employees wherever they may be based many of them not based in Wales investment in local authorities to administer the system means that we are retaining more of that investment here Sian Gwenllian AM: Well I congratulate you on persuading local government and WLGA to change their minds because they actually told this committee that they favoured the HMRC option—and this is only going back a few months—because it will remove—and this is quoting them— it will remove the administrative burden of receiving applications and checking eligibility from local authorities— blah blah blah blah So they have obviously changed their minds as well which is you know— I congratulate you on that but it does present us as a committee with a little bit of a problem really because if we are told one thing a few months ago and then we are told something completely different today you know evidence—we have to go on evidence that we have heard and the evidence has changed now

Sian Gwenllian pointed out that the issues with HMRC had come to light that had made the team suspended the programme for the HMRC would have put limits on that. Julie Morgan answered that in terms of the Welsh language standards that the Minister had to use, there would be some difficulties in them doing it. For instance this would be delivered via HMRC with the English offer, which would cause difficulties for the Welsh offer. So, they wanted something more flexible. Nicola Edwards also agreed that the technical issues with HMRC for HMRC did provide a bilingual service at the moment for their customers in line with their Welsh language scheme. Jo-Anne Daniels finally came to the conclusion that they could deliver a cheaper system with flexibility that the Deputy Minister had referred to by working with local authorities rather than HMRC.

Sian Gwenllian AM: As we know of course the work with Her Majestys Revenue and Customs has ended and I know you were not the Minister who initiated this process but what exactly has gone wrong ? What are these issues that have come to light that have made you suspend that ? It is very frustrating for us as a committee who scrutinised that extensively and raised a lot of concerns about that And a lot of time has been spent talking about this funding Bill and money—£1 million I understand—has been wasted if you like unnecessarily So what exactly has gone wrong ? Why are not you discussing these things with HMRC ? Yes So thank you for that explanation Julie Morgan AM: I have got more to say as well Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes but for your transparency around your particular view that it needs to be more flexible and expanded upon and therefore going down the HMRC route was— Julie Morgan AM: It would have restricted us a lot Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes We knew that from the beginning I mean that is you know— So it was a principle decision rather than any sort of technical matters to do with the Welsh language standards That is been cited as one kind of— But I am really understanding more now that really what it is about is that you want to have a more flexible and expand on the offer and that this would curtail—going through HMRC would put limits on that Julie Morgan AM: That is one of the reasons but there were issues about the Welsh language which we can go into in detail if you would like There were some issues about that They would be able to process things bilingually and I think that was probably told to the committee when we looked at the HMRC But in terms of the Welsh language standards that the Minister has to use there would be some difficulties in them doing it Sian Gwenllian AM: But would you say that your main change came about because you wanted to be more flexible rather than any difficulties— Julie Morgan AM: One of the major reasons I think— But there are— As I say there are other reasons Those technical reasons probably do end up being quite important— Sian Gwenllian AM: But the committee was told by the previous Minister that HMRC would not have any problem at all with delivering according to the Welsh language standards Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to add something to this ? Nicola Edwards: So in terms of some of the technical issues we had if you want to start with the bilingual provision and the Welsh language standards HMRC do provide a bilingual service at the moment for their customers in line with their Welsh language scheme and I think we can all appreciate that schemes are quite different from the requirements of the standards And there were some issues when we got into the detail of the standards that the Welsh Ministers are required to deliver to that caused some concerns in terms of how HMRC were going to do it particularly in terms of the multiple IT systems that go into building up the childcare services So for example there are a number of what are called special characters in the Welsh alphabet such as the to bach for example The HMRC IT system has some issues with that Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes well with due respect the to bach has always been there— Nicola Edwards: Oh yes I completely agree Unfortunately however— Sian Gwenllian AM: —and HMRC would have been able to tell you really early on you would have thought that it was— I do not really want to go into it because I think we have got to the crux of why HMRC was dropped I think it is been dropped because Julie feels that the offer needs to be more flexible and I can understand why you would say that Julie Morgan AM: If we bring in training and education for example we would not be able to do that via the HMRC it would have to be done by the local authorities Foster parents have to be done via the local authorities Any people of immigration status of no resource from public funds that would have to be done via the local authorities And with the local authorities also wanting to do it— I mean there are other things with using HMRC—if any changes were made with the English offer for example because this would be delivered via HMRC with the English offer that would cause difficulties for the Welsh offer So we wanted something more flexible I do not know if there is anything more you want to add on that

Julie Morgan thought that in terms of the Welsh language standards that the Minister had to use, there would be some difficulties in them doing the programme. For instance this would be delivered via HMRC with the English offer, which would cause difficulties for the Welsh offer. So, they wanted something more flexible.

Suzy Davies AM: Thank you Ms Daniels you referred to value for money How much is it actually going to cost to change this system from being a temporary arrangement with local authorities to a permanent one ? And how much more is it going to cost for the more flexible system that you have in mind ? They are not going to do this for nothing How much extra are you giving them and will they use it for this ? How are you ensuring it is used for this ? Jo-Anne Daniels: So at the moment local— So two things Just to start by saying the eligibility checking process is not undertaken by all 22 local authorities Suzy Davies AM: No no I realise that Yes I got all that Jo-Anne Daniels: So part of the reason for using 10 is to try to ensure that we build economies of scale and that we have a more efficient operation Those authorities that undertake that function are given a specific grant in order to do that That grant is ringfenced to that purpose Suzy Davies AM: Could you give us an idea of the price tag ? Jo-Anne Daniels: At the moment it is about £25 million Suzy Davies AM: just as a round figure—that is fine Nicola Edwards: Just for the administration They get separate funding for the childcare obviously Jo-Anne Daniels: So that as I said is a ringfenced sum that they use to administer the offer We are now starting the detailed work to define the new system requirements so that we will have a single application process across Wales moving forward As part of that work we will need to consider the detailed costings but our initial estimate suggests that it would be less than the cost proposed by HMRC

Jo-Anne Daniels finally came to the conclusion that they could deliver a cheaper system with flexibility that the Deputy Minister had referred to by working with local authorities rather than HMRC. At the moment, the extra cost would be about £2.5 million, which according to their initial estimate suggested that it would be less than the cost proposed by HMRC.

Grad F: and that s just what I used to generate the order of these particular ones Professor C: So I m impressed by what we could do Is take the standard training set for TI digits train up with whatever you know great features we think we have for instance and then test on this test set And presumably it should do reasonably well on that and then presumably we should go to the distant mike and it should do poorly And then we should get really smart over the next year or two and it that should get better Grad F: Right And inc increase it by one or two percent but in order to do that we need to extract out the actual digits so that the reason it s not just a transcript is that there are false starts and misreads and miscues and things like that And so I have a set of scripts and X Waves where you just select the portion hit ARE it tells you what the next one should be and you just look for that You know so it it will put on the screen `` The next set is six nine nine two two `` And you find that and hit the key and it records it in a file in a particular format And so the the question is should we have the transcribers do that or should we just do it ? Well some of us I ve been do I ve done eight meetings something like that just by hand Just myself rather So it will not take long Professor C: what what do you think ? Postdoc B: My feeling is that we discussed this right before coffee and I think it s a it s a fine idea partly because it s not un unrelated to their present skill set but it will add for them an extra dimension it might be an interesting break for them And also it is contributing to the c composition of the transcript cuz we can incorporate those numbers directly and it will be a more complete transcript So I m I think it s fine that part Professor C: So you think it s fine to have the transcribers do it ? Grad F: There s one other small bit which is just entering the information which at s which is at the top of this form onto the computer to go along with the where the digits are recorded automatically And so it s just you know typing in name times time date and so on which again either they can do but it is you know firing up an editor or again I can do Or someone else can do Postdoc B: And that you know I m not that that one I m not so sure if it s into the the things that I wanted to use the hours for because the the time that they would be spending doing that they would not be able to be putting more words on But that s really your choice it s your PhD D: So are these two separate tasks that can happen ? Or do they have to happen at the same time before Grad F: No they do not have this you have to enter the data before you do the second task but they do not have to happen at the same time So it s it s just I have a file whi which has this information on it and then when you start using my scripts for extracting the times it adds the times at the bottom of the file And so I mean it s easy to create the files and leave them blank and so actually we could do it in either order it s it s sort of nice to have the same person do it just as a double check to make sure you are entering for the right person But either way Professor C: just by way of a order of magnitude we ve been working with this Aurora data set And the best score on the nicest part of the data that is where you ve got training and test set that are basically the same kinds of noise and so forth is about I think the best score was something like five percent error per digit You are right So if you were doing pause ten digit recognition you would really be in trouble So So the The point there and this is car noise things but but real real situation well `` real `` the there s one microphone that s close that they have as as this sort of thing close versus distant but in a car instead of instead of having a projector noise it s it s car noise but it was not artificially added to get some some artificial signal to noise ratio It was just people driving around in a car So that s that s an indication that was with many sites competing and this was the very best score and so forth so More typical numbers like PhD D: Although the models were not that good right ? I mean the models are pretty crappy ? Professor C: You are right I think that we could have done better on the models but the thing is that we got this this is the kind of typical number for all of the things in this task all of the languages And so I I think we would probably the models would be better in some than in others so Anyway just an indication once you get into this kind of realm even if you are looking at connected digits it can be pretty hard Postdoc B: It s going to be fun to see how we compare at this Very exciting s PhD D: How did we do on the TI digits ? Grad F: Well the prosodics are so much different s it s going to be strange I mean the prosodics are not the same as TI digits for example So I m I m not sure how much of effect that will have PhD G: What do you mean the prosodics ? Grad F: just what we were talking about with grouping That with these the grouping there s no grouping at all and so it s just the only sort of discontinuity you have is at the beginning and the end PhD G: So what are they doing in Aurora are they reading actual phone numbers Grad F: Aurora I do not know I do not know what they do in Aurora PhD G: or a a digit at a time or ? Professor C: I m not sure how no no I mean it s connected it s connected digits PhD G: So there s also the not just the prosody but the cross the cross word modeling is probably quite different Grad F: But in TI digits they are reading things like zip codes and phone numbers and things like that PhD D: do we do on TI digits ? Grad F: so it s going to be different I do not remember I mean very good right ? Professor C: I mean we were in the Grad F: One and a half percent two percent something like that ? Professor C: I th no I think we got under a percent but it was but it s but I mean The very best system that I saw in the literature was a point two five percent or something that somebody had at at Bell Labs or but But sort of pulling out all the stops Postdoc B: s It s strikes me that there are more each of them is more informative because it s so random Professor C: But I think a lot of systems sort of get half a percent or three quarters a percent and we are we are in there somewhere Grad F: But that I mean it s really it s it s close talking mikes no noise clean signal just digits I mean every everything is good PhD G: It s the beginning of time in speech recognition Grad F: And we ve only recently got it to anywhere near human PhD G: It s like the single cell you know it s the beginning of life Grad F: And it s still like an order of magnitude worse than what humans do Professor C: When When they are wide awake after coffee you are right Not after lunch Grad F: OK so what I will do then is I will go ahead and enter this data And then hand off to Jane and the transcribers to do the actual extraction of the digits Professor C: One question I have that that I mean we would not know the answer to now but might do some guessing but I was talking before about doing some model modeling of arti marking of articulatory features with overlap and so on And and On some subset One thought might be to do this on on the digits or some piece of the digits it would be easier and so forth The only thing is I m a little concerned that maybe the kind of phenomena in w i i The reason for doing it is because the the argument is that certainly with conversational speech the stuff that we ve looked at here before just doing the simple mapping from the phone to the corresponding features that you could look up in a book is not right It is not actually right In fact there s these overlapping processes where some voicing some up and then some you know some nasality is comes in here and so forth And you do this gross thing saying `` Well I guess it s this phone starting there `` So that s the reasoning But It could be that when we are reading digits because it s it s for such a limited set that maybe maybe that phenomenon does not occur as much I do not know Di an anybody ? pause Do you have any ? pause Anybody have any opinion about that Postdoc B: and that people might articulate more and you that might end up with more a closer correspondence Grad F: that s I I agree It s a Well Would this corpus really be the right one to even try that on ? PhD G: Well it s definitely true that when people are reading even if they are re reading what they had said spontaneously that they have very different patterns Mitch showed that and some dissertations have shown that

The group discussed the collection status for a set of connected digits recordings that are nearly complete and ready to be trained on a recognizer. Anticipated results were discussed in reference to results obtained for other digits corpora, i.e. Aurora and TI-digits.

Grad F: so that the reason it s not just a transcript is that there are false starts and misreads and miscues and things like that And so I have a set of scripts and X Waves where you just select the portion hit ARE it tells you what the next one should be and you just look for that You know so it it will put on the screen `` The next set is six nine nine two two `` And you find that and hit the key and it records it in a file in a particular format And so the the question is should we have the transcribers do that or should we just do it ? Well some of us I ve been do I ve done eight meetings something like that just by hand Just myself rather So it will not take long Professor C: what what do you think ? Postdoc B: My feeling is that we discussed this right before coffee and I think it s a it s a fine idea partly because it s not un unrelated to their present skill set but it will add for them an extra dimension it might be an interesting break for them And also it is contributing to the c composition of the transcript cuz we can incorporate those numbers directly and it will be a more complete transcript So I m I think it s fine that part Professor C: So you think it s fine to have the transcribers do it ? Grad F: There s one other small bit which is just entering the information which at s which is at the top of this form onto the computer to go along with the where the digits are recorded automatically And so it s just you know typing in name times time date and so on which again either they can do but it is you know firing up an editor or again I can do Or someone else can do Postdoc B: And that you know I m not that that one I m not so sure if it s into the the things that I wanted to use the hours for because the the time that they would be spending doing that they would not be able to be putting more words on But that s really your choice it s your PhD D: So are these two separate tasks that can happen ? Or do they have to happen at the same time before Grad F: No they do not have this you have to enter the data before you do the second task but they do not have to happen at the same time So it s it s just I have a file whi which has this information on it and then when you start using my scripts for extracting the times it adds the times at the bottom of the file And so I mean it s easy to create the files and leave them blank and so actually we could do it in either order it s it s sort of nice to have the same person do it just as a double check to make sure you are entering for the right person But either way Professor C: just by way of a order of magnitude we ve been working with this Aurora data set And the best score on the nicest part of the data that is where you ve got training and test set that are basically the same kinds of noise and so forth is about I think the best score was something like five percent error per digit You are right So if you were doing pause ten digit recognition you would really be in trouble So So the The point there and this is car noise things but but real real situation well `` real `` the there s one microphone that s close that they have as as this sort of thing close versus distant but in a car instead of instead of having a projector noise it s it s car noise but it was not artificially added to get some some artificial signal to noise ratio It was just people driving around in a car So that s that s an indication that was with many sites competing and this was the very best score and so forth so More typical numbers like PhD D: Although the models were not that good right ? I mean the models are pretty crappy ? Professor C: You are right I think that we could have done better on the models but the thing is that we got this this is the kind of typical number for all of the things in this task all of the languages And so I I think we would probably the models would be better in some than in others so Anyway just an indication once you get into this kind of realm even if you are looking at connected digits it can be pretty hard Postdoc B: It s going to be fun to see how we compare at this Very exciting s PhD D: How did we do on the TI digits ? Grad F: Well the prosodics are so much different s it s going to be strange I mean the prosodics are not the same as TI digits for example

decision was also made to delegate transcribers with the task of labelling a subset of digits or Switchboard data for fine-grained acoustic-phonetic features. Speaker fe008 will run selected Meeting Recorder data through channelize and determine whether the resulting units are of a sufficient length.

Professor C: I mean this is the kind of reason why I remember when at one of the Switchboard workshops that when we talked about doing the transcription project Dave Talkin said `` can not be done `` He was he was what what he meant was that this is not you know a sequence of phones and when you actually look at Switchboard that s not what you see and you know And It Grad F: And in in fact the inter annotator agreement was not that good right ? On the harder ones ? PhD G: It depends how you look at it and I I understand what you are saying about this kind of transcription exactly because I ve seen you know where does the voicing bar start and so forth All I m saying is that it is useful to have that the transcription of what was really said and which syllables were reduced if you are going to add the features it s also useful to have some level of representation which is is a reduced it s a pronunciation variant that currently the dictionaries do not give you because if you add them to the dictionary and you run recognition you you add confusion So people purposely do not add them So it s useful to know which variant was was produced at least at the phone level PhD D: So it would be it would be great if we had either these kind of labelings on the same portion of Switchboard that Steve marked or Steve s type markings on this data with these PhD G: Right That s all I mean Exactly Professor C: no I I do not disagree with that PhD G: And Steve s type is fairly it s not that slow I do not know exactly what the timing was but Professor C: you I do not disagree with it the on the only thing is that What you actually will end en end up with is something i it s all compromised right so the string that you end up with is not actually what happened But it s it s the best compromise that a group of people scratching their heads could come up with to describe what happened PhD D: And it s more accurate than phone labels Professor C: But And it s more accurate than the than the dictionary or if you ve got a pronunciation lexicon that has three or four this might be have been the fifth one that you tr that you pruned or whatever PhD D: So it s like a continuum It s you are going all the way down PhD G: That s what I meant is an and in some places it would fill in So the kinds of gestural features are not everywhere So there are some things that you do not have access to either from your ear or the spectrogram but you know what phone it was and that s about all you can all you can say And then there are other cases where nasality voicing PhD D: It s basically just having multiple levels of of information and marking on the signal Grad F: Well the other difference is that the the features are not synchronous right They overlap each other in weird ways So it s not a strictly one dimensional signal So I think that s sorta qualitatively different PhD G: Right You can add the features in but it will be underspecified Th there will be no way for you to actually mark what was said completely by features Grad F: Well not with our current system but you could imagine designing a system that the states were features rather than phones PhD G: And i if you are Well we we ve probably have a separate discussion of of whether you can do that Postdoc B: That s Well pause is not that I thought that was well but that was not that kind of the direction ? Professor C: so I mean what what where this is I mean I I want would like to have something that s useful to people other than those who are doing the specific kind of research I have in mind so it should be something broader But The but where I m coming from is we are coming off of stuff that Larry Saul did with with John Dalan and Muzim Rahim in which they have a m a multi band system that is trained through a combination of gradient learning an and THEM to pause estimate the value for m for for a particular feature OK And this is part of a larger image that John Dalan has about how the human brain does it in which he s sort of imagining that individual frequency channels are coming up with their own estimate of of these these kinds of something like this Might not be you know exact features that Jakobson thought of or something But I mean you know some something like that Some kind of low level features which are not fully you know phone classification And the the th this particular image of how thi how it s done is that then given all of these estimates at that level there s a level above it then which is is making some kind of sound unit classification such as you know phone and and you know You could argue what what a sound unit should be and and so forth But that that s sort of what I was imagining doing and but it s still open within that whether you would have an intermediate level in which it was actually phones or not You would not necessarily have to but Again I would not want to would not want what we we produced to be so know local in perspective that it it was matched what we were thinking of doing one week And and and you know what you are saying is absolutely right That that if we can we should put in another level of of description there if we are going to get into some of this low level stuff PhD D: Well you know I mean if we are talking about having the annotators annotate these kinds of features it seems like You know you The the question is do they do that on meeting data ? Or do they do that on Switchboard ? Grad F: That s what I was saying Postdoc B: W Well it seems like you could do both Grad F: maybe meeting data is not the right corpus Postdoc B: I mean I was thinking that it would be interesting to do it with respect to parts of Switchboard anyway in terms of partly to see if you could generate first guesses at what the articulatory feature would be based on the phone representation at that lower level It might be a time gain But also in terms of comparability of PhD D: Well cuz the and then also if you did it on Switchboard you would have the full continuum of transcriptions You would have it from the lowest level the ac acoustic features then you would have the you know the phonetic level that Steve did PhD G: that that s all I was thinking about Postdoc B: And you could tell that PhD G: it is telephone band so the bandwidth might be PhD D: It would be a complete set then Postdoc B: And you get the relative gain up ahead Professor C: It s so it s a little different So I mean i we will see wha how much we can get the people to do and how much money we will have and all this sort of thing PhD D: But it it might be good to do what Jane was saying you know seed it with guesses about what we think the features are based on you know the phone or Steve s transcriptions or something to make it quicker Professor C: but Might be do both Grad F: Alright so based on the phone transcripts they would all be synchronous but then you could imagine nudging them here and there

The group also considered the prospect of performing fine-grained acoustic-phonetic analyses on a subset of Meeting Recorder digits or Switchboard data. Pre-segmentation manipulations that allow for the segmentation of channel-specific speech/non-speech portions of the signal and the distinction of foreground versus background speech were discussed.

Professor C: no I I do not disagree with that PhD G: And Steve s type is fairly it s not that slow I do not know exactly what the timing was but Professor C: you I do not disagree with it the on the only thing is that What you actually will end en end up with is something i it s all compromised right so the string that you end up with is not actually what happened But it s it s the best compromise that a group of people scratching their heads could come up with to describe what happened PhD D: And it s more accurate than phone labels Professor C: But And it s more accurate than the than the dictionary or if you ve got a pronunciation lexicon that has three or four this might be have been the fifth one that you tr that you pruned or whatever PhD D: So it s like a continuum It s you are going all the way down PhD G: That s what I meant is an and in some places it would fill in So the kinds of gestural features are not everywhere So there are some things that you do not have access to either from your ear or the spectrogram but you know what phone it was and that s about all you can all you can say And then there are other cases where nasality voicing PhD D: It s basically just having multiple levels of of information and marking on the signal Grad F: Well the other difference is that the the features are not synchronous right They overlap each other in weird ways So it s not a strictly one dimensional signal So I think that s sorta qualitatively different PhD G: Right You can add the features in but it will be underspecified Th there will be no way for you to actually mark what was said completely by features Grad F: Well not with our current system but you could imagine designing a system that the states were features rather than phones PhD G: And i if you are Well we we ve probably have a separate discussion of of whether you can do that Postdoc B: That s Well pause is not that I thought that was well but that was not that kind of the direction ? Professor C: so I mean what what where this is I mean I I want would like to have something that s useful to people other than those who are doing the specific kind of research I have in mind so it should be something broader But The but where I m coming from is we are coming off of stuff that Larry Saul did with with John Dalan and Muzim Rahim in which they have a m a multi band system that is trained through a combination of gradient learning an and THEM to pause estimate the value for m for for a particular feature OK And this is part of a larger image that John Dalan has about how the human brain does it in which he s sort of imagining that individual frequency channels are coming up with their own estimate of of these these kinds of something like this Might not be you know exact features that Jakobson thought of or something But I mean you know some something like that Some kind of low level features which are not fully you know phone classification And the the th this particular image of how thi how it s done is that then given all of these estimates at that level there s a level above it then which is is making some kind of sound unit classification such as you know phone and and you know You could argue what what a sound unit should be and and so forth But that that s sort of what I was imagining doing and but it s still open within that whether you would have an intermediate level in which it was actually phones or not You would not necessarily have to but Again I would not want to would not want what we we produced to be so know local in perspective that it it was matched what we were thinking of doing one week And and and you know what you are saying is absolutely right That that if we can we should put in another level of of description there if we are going to get into some of this low level stuff PhD D: Well you know I mean if we are talking about having the annotators annotate these kinds of features it seems like You know you The the question is do they do that on meeting data ? Or do they do that on Switchboard ? Grad F: That s what I was saying Postdoc B: W Well it seems like you could do both Grad F: maybe meeting data is not the right corpus Postdoc B: I mean I was thinking that it would be interesting to do it with respect to parts of Switchboard anyway in terms of partly to see if you could generate first guesses at what the articulatory feature would be based on the phone representation at that lower level It might be a time gain But also in terms of comparability of PhD D: Well cuz the and then also if you did it on Switchboard you would have the full continuum of transcriptions You would have it from the lowest level the ac acoustic features then you would have the you know the phonetic level that Steve did PhD G: that that s all I was thinking about Postdoc B: And you could tell that PhD G: it is telephone band so the bandwidth might be PhD D: It would be a complete set then Postdoc B: And you get the relative gain up ahead Professor C: It s so it s a little different So I mean i we will see wha how much we can get the people to do and how much money we will have and all this sort of thing PhD D: But it it might be good to do what Jane was saying you know seed it with guesses about what we think the features are based on you know the phone or Steve s transcriptions or something to make it quicker Professor C: but Might be do both Grad F: Alright so based on the phone transcripts they would all be synchronous but then you could imagine nudging them here and there PhD D: Scoot the voicing over a little because Professor C: Well I think what I mean I m I m a l little behind in what they are doing now and the stuff they are doing on Switchboard now But I think that Steve and the gang are doing something with an automatic system first and then doing some adjustment As I re as I recall So I mean that s probably the right way to go anyway is to is to start off with an automatic system with a pretty rich pronunciation dictionary that that you know tries to label it all And then people go through and fix it Postdoc B: So in in our case you would think about us s starting with maybe the regular dictionary entry and then ? Or pause would we Professor C: Well regular dictionary I mean this is a pretty rich dictionary It s got got a fair number of pronunciations in it PhD D: Or you could start from the if we were going to do the same set of sentences that Steve had done we could start with those transcriptions Postdoc B: Mm So I was thinking PhD G: That s actually what I was thinking is tha

The group discussed the prospect of performing fine-grained acoustic-phonetic analyses on a subset of digits or Switchboard data. It was suggested that prior to the use of data-driven methods, knowledge-driven approaches should be used to 'seed' the data with sub-phonemic features, either manually, or using a rich pronunciation dictionary. A new version of the pre-segmentation tool that segments channel-specific speech/non-speech portions of the signal has been developed and tested.

Marketing: But in the cost that the management is looking for that is not going to be possible But if it is trendy if it is fancy it is got some colour to it if it is very easy easy to use if it is got simple remote speech remote control like I said louder softer change channel on off remote it goes beep beep I can find my my remote without spending half a day looking for it and getting all upset because I can not turn the TV on So we are going to have to look at it in a in this global idea with the ideas of the industrial design But price obviously we have to talk about Project Manager: Yep So what do you think about the design ? Do you think you can make it or Industrial Designer: D I am sorry ? Project Manager: What do you think about the design what he was talking about of the speech recognition ? Industrial Designer: Well training is always an issue with commands So might we can perhaps do it if the user is willing to spend some time in the training process it could reduce th th the overall cost Not sure how But anyway I I think also that this might impact the battery life And so maybe what we will have to do is add something where you can recharge it wirelessly so that y you know sen send power to it So or maybe set it out in the sun and it you know gets from the light a a solar cell inside there so that you have enough juice to do all these fancy things User Interface: It seems also like with the speech recognition it is a great feature but if you are watching TV there is a lot of ambient sound and it is words It is not just you know noises like something hitting It is actual speech so then you have to make sure that the speech recognizer is good enough to filter out the TV speech and the the users speech Otherwise you can say remote But if someone on the screen is saying the same thing all of a sudden you have someone in a movie saying off and your screen dies because they have triggered the remote control and it is turned off your TV So I think if we can find a speech recognizer that can handle those types of problems then it would be a really good marketing gimmick But I think we seriously need to consider how that would impact the situation Marketing: Because tha w with speech recognition th I am not that good at that idea but th if it is a oneword recognition because I know with telephones and cars and things I have seen in the States a friend of mine says call Mom and it calls up Mom Kay the radio can be on and everything Because I think s with speech recognition if the the remote or like the telephone it has a exact word that it has to hear I do not think it would come through a sentence in a television If somebody is speaking on the se the television they are not going to stop and say remote So I think that something could be designed to recognise single word User Interface: Oh No I think it is a great idea if we can design it to to suit those requirements Marketing: Like the t like the telephone No because I this is this is years ago in the United States where we are driving down and he said call home and the telephone called immediately so well that is kind of cute Project Manager: Well what I can suggest to you Christine if you need some the technical feedback or some training about this facility especially for the speech recognition I can recommend you some companies like Intel or IBM because they are already in this speech recognition part And you can maybe have some technical backup from them some kind of a technical tieup and if you want I can coordinate to get some information and you can let me know so what kind of the details you require to add this feature in this project I do not think it is the difficult And we need to know how much is the timeframe you need to develop apart from what today Industrial Designer: we will find that out Marketing: From from your side you are going to have to go back the management and s be more s precise What do they want ? a risk take a risk on the market ? Something that is going to cost more but could very easily s make a boom in the market ? Because it has to be something totally different has to be total totally new Something that nobody has right now And it is going to cost Project Manager: but end of the day you are the sales guy so I will come back and sit on your head because you are going to give your sales projection It is of course it is good to tell the management how much it is cost us and how much you are going to benefit And so I do not mind to convince the management to spend some more money on the project if you can make out of the money from this project Marketing: If the bottom line is positive Project Manager: Yes I do not mind to convince the the management The management says so they they do not want certain facilities which it is already worked they want something new I think like speech recognit definitely they will agree I do not think they will say no for that And I hope I can convince the management on that So if you have any new ideas for your you can always come up and you can tell me if you need any s special coordination between any technical companies which you can hide their technology backup for your functional design or technical design then I am ready to do that And what is your comments about

The group decided that the feature of speech recognition should be included to the remote control, even though it would exceed the cost constraint set by the management. Marketing believed that it is worth taking a risk because speech recognition is new to the market and customers would be willing to pay extra for this trendy function. What's more, Project Manager agreed to coordinate with some technical companies if Industrial Designer ever needed any technological backup.

Marketing: I will explain myself here now in the sense that in a in the recent surveys from the ages fr from fifteen to thirtyfive eighty percent are willing to spend more money for something as fancy as trendy Twentyfive Euros that is that is a preson reasonable price That is a market price right now Now if we are going to take a risk and push this up a bit make it more expensive but give them added things that they do not have now then it w it could possibly sell Obviously the risk is there Too expensive they are not going to buy But I think there is one other thing interesting two things that are interesting is that from the fifteen to thirtyfive yearold group which always spends more money on trendy new things speech recognition is requested And we are talking between seventyfive to ninety percent of this group is willing to pay for speech recognition on a remote Obviously we can not make a remote into a computer but maybe simple commands I do not know louder softer on off That might be a possibility even though it costs more to be the first on the market to produce this Thirtyfive percent say they are too difficult to use So we have to figure out a way of making it more user friendly fifty percent say they can not find the remote half the time So maybe one word speech recognition commands say remote and there is a beep beep beep and they can find it through you know ten tons of newspapers magazines whatever you have at home But in the cost that the management is looking for that is not going to be possible But if it is trendy if it is fancy it is got some colour to it if it is very easy easy to use if it is got simple remote speech remote control like I said louder softer change channel on off remote it goes beep beep I can find my my remote without spending half a day looking for it and getting all upset because I can not turn the TV on So we are going to have to look at it in a in this global idea with the ideas of the industrial design

Marketing believed this feature would improve the market competitiveness of this product based on a conducted survey on user requirement. One the one hand, 80% of the 15-35 year-old group are willing to spend more money for trendy new products. 75% - 90% of this group is willing to pay for speech recognition on a remote even though it is of higher price. On the other hand, half of the users said the remote control got lost easily and most of the time were hard to find. With speech recognition, however, this problem could be solved.

Industrial Designer: so that you have enough juice to do all these fancy things User Interface: It seems also like with the speech recognition it is a great feature but if you are watching TV there is a lot of ambient sound and it is words It is not just you know noises like something hitting It is actual speech so then you have to make sure that the speech recognizer is good enough to filter out the TV speech and the the users speech Otherwise you can say remote But if someone on the screen is saying the same thing all of a sudden you have someone in a movie saying off and your screen dies because they have triggered the remote control and it is turned off your TV So I think if we can find a speech recognizer that can handle those types of problems then it would be a really good marketing gimmick But I think we seriously need to consider how that would impact the situation Marketing: Because tha w with speech recognition th I am not that good at that idea but th if it is a oneword recognition because I know with telephones and cars and things I have seen in the States a friend of mine says call Mom and it calls up Mom

User Interface found this feature great, but he noticed that the ambient sound coming from television would confuse the speech recognition and might accidentally trigger the remote control. User Interface pointed out that Industrial Designer had to make sure the speech recognizer would be good enough to filter out the television speech and recognize only the user's voice. He believed that this feature, once successfully achieved, would make the product popular on the market.

Industrial Designer: So well I I figured we should identify some user requirements and from my experience I want to and from research I did the the device has to turn the television on and off the first time you press on the big button you can not can not have like waffling on this point you know Really have It needs to be able y y have to be able to find it Because one of the biggest problems with remote controls is finding them So I also since we have to establish our corporate image on the basis of this new product thought we better look at things that are popular and ex go beyond those and as I said in the first meeting and then we might want to talk eventually about the materials that are appropriate to use in in the construction especially in the the the outside of the product so that it gives the appearance and it is reliable and so forth I did a little history on the the remote controls and when they were invented and so forth so I guess this guy Zenith created the Flashmatic which I kind of like the idea because it made me think of maybe the remote control made a big flash when you turn the TV on and off that might be interesting And so it was highly directional flash light that you could turn the picture on and off and the sound on and off and change channels c so I think those are still requirements we have today fifty years later And it was really a pioneering innovation but it was sensitive to the sun so that it would get would start off by the you would get it would easily because problems So I in addition to looking at the the functional requir so all these devices are examples of where mm they represent examples that are available today which I think the one in the middle is r really something to keep in mind It would be easy to find And it would y you would you could throw it at things if if the TV did not turn on and off you could use it for something else And since I am not really Industrial Designer I did not really know what to do with this slide But I just took some different schematics and I put them into this and I guess this is what a slide might look like if you were drawing a circuit board I do not know why we were asked to do this So personal preferences I think we could I I am really thinking outside the box here and I think that we should consider perhaps having an an an a a size a remote control that changes in size depending on the user preference So something that is very very flexible and inflatable and then you could shrink it I think it could either be you could go either one extreme be very colourful or you could make it clear and kind of blend in with things so you did not have to have a problem with the th the decoration of the of the users home I think it needs to be waterproof because sometimes they fall into cups and you know it might be out by the swimming pool or something like that if you mi one of one of my requirements was about needs t to tell you when it is done its job or not because half the time I keep pushing on the remote control and I do not know if it is actually understood my message so I think it should give you some sort of an oral cue And course I never want to replace the battery So that is those are my f preferences and that is my presentation

Industrial Designer suggested that the remote control needed to be able to turn the television on and off, control the volume and the menu, change channels, both by directly going to a specific channel or by channel surfing. As for the material used for the construction of the outer case, it needed to be not only flexible and inflatable, but also waterproof. The product itself would be better if it could change in size depending on user preference. In addition, the remote control should be able to respond to the user by sending out an oral cue in order to show that it understood your message correctly.

User Interface: and that is fine So basically the method that we usually use in the user interface design is that we need to look at what people like and what people do not like about existing products So in our case existing remote controls And then what the good ideas are and what the bad ideas are and why they are bad and good which is not always as obvious We seem to have intuitions about why things are good or things are bad but when you look technically at how it works sometimes that is not the case Then we need to decide what functionalities we really want to keep because that will feed into both Eds work and Christines work and then what the remote control should look like obviously once we have got a good idea of what the functionalities are So in terms of the functionalities that we need you obviously need to be able to turn the TV on and off You need to change channels both by directly going to a specific channel or by channel surfing You need to be able to control the volume and then control any menus on the TV to regulate contrast or whatever So the problems that people have expressed is that there is too many buttons on remote controls in general The buttons it is not clear what they are supposed to do often you need to know specific button sequences to get certain functionalities done which you do not necessarily always remember especially if it is a functionality that you do not use very often And that the buttons are too small So here we have got two examples where here on the lefthand side you can see a remote control that has lots and lots of buttons The buttons in a lot of cases are tiny they are hard to see and they are labelled but the labels do not necessarily tell you too much Whereas on the other side you have a much simpler remote control that I think basically has the minimum functionalities that are needed And it sort of looks simpler and just less imposing when you first look at it So I would be inclined to go sort of towards this in terms of design rather than this And if there is specific functionalities that require more buttons then we can figure out how to do it with existing buttons So my personal preferences are to keep the number of buttons to a limit or to a minimum sorry make frequently used buttons bigger and more strategically placed so like the on button being really obvious one the channel changing and the volume and to keep the design basically sleek and simple Which I think ties into what Christine and Ed have both said fairly reasonably so that is pretty much it an I do not know if you guys have any questions or Industrial Designer: Oh it is seems very understandable Clearly your research and and ours heading in the same direction and the only thing that I saw missing from your your research that we found was this ability to find the doggone thing when you need it So you know but that is That is why we are all here at the table so that if we think of it and our research indicates certain things and w we it is complementary I also think that th f the the feel of it is when you hold it is something that was expressed more in in in in my design and that is logical and normal because those are the parameters that an Industrial Designers more thinking about th th the look and the feel User Interface: Oh that is definitely a very important factor especially to users who are going to be buying the thing and then using it almost on an daily basis in a lot of cases I think Industrial Designer: First Yep Mmhmm so I do not have any questions Sounds good

Based on user perspective feedback, User Interface pointed out that the buttons on remote controls are generally too many and too small. Even though they were sometimes labeled, it was still not clear for the users to tell what each button was supposed to do. Given this, User Interface preferred to keep the number of buttons to a minimum and make frequently used buttons bigger and more strategically placed. He believed a simpler design would make the product less imposing.

Project Manager: let me interrupt you if you can add other facility other feature like unbreakable because especially today you know you have the family and the kids and the kids throw it and they they play with their remotes and Industrial Designer: Run over it with a car Project Manager: Yes so if you can add the feature for your fabric whatever in your outline design with unbreakable I think that will give a lot of advantage for our product if I am not wrong Maybe you can add it in that Industrial Designer: Good idea Good idea I will I will Yes very good

Given the fact that for families with children, remote controls were always played or even thrown by kids, Project Manager would prefer the material used in the construction of the product, especially on the outside, to be unbreakable. Project Manager also suggested that the product should be slim and simple. On top of that, it would be better if the remote control could be universal to use for any kind of television.

Industrial Designer: so I think I will do my presentation on the components concept so can you please open I am participant two so the first thing I have done is to to made a review together with the manufactural department and have which components was available to build a remote control So for energy sources we have we have to choose between the solar energy hand dynamo and kinetic well kinetic technique to to store the energy We also we also can put a regular battery in the in the remote control Now Project Manager: this is what we have decided in the last meeting But if we use battery Industrial Designer: b f well I meant by by battery I meant I will not have a a wire between the remote control and the energy source but I did not fou we did not decide yet which kind of battery we will put inside the the remote So it is a point to discuss Then the case material we have also several choices like wood rubber titanium or latex But well it is not a a re well a real issue for the from the technical point of view Concerning the interface we can we can put mm just simple buttons or scrolls or buttons much more complicated but it also requires that the chip to process the button is more complicated so And this is the last point the choice of chips So what I have f found is that I think basic battery or kinetic energy collection is the is the better way to provide energy because I think solar energy wi will not work in a cluttered environment So so I think we can start with these two main things For the case well I think that titanium is is a good choice because it is trendy and it is it is well it is modern and user are are are mm will be very happy to have a a a nice remote For the interface I think that we can ach achieve all the desired functionalities by s just using rubber buttons simple buttons and th thus this allow to use a regular chip that are well cheaper And s so we can move to the next slide User Interface: What is this single curved what does it mean ? Industrial Designer: Well i i it is it is the the shape of the of the remote User Interface: So it is it is not Industrial Designer: You you will have the well the the curve will fit into your hand when you grab the User Interface: Yo l When you hold on it it is comfortable to hold Industrial Designer: It is more confog f comfortable that if these it is completely flat User Interface: And the battery is it kind of a rechargeable or it does not matter ? Industrial Designer: the that is the point The kinetic one is y you can recharge by the User Interface: That that is what it means by kinetic Industrial Designer: and by well by just by moving the ar your arm the mm well the remote will accumulate energy But I d I do not know it is if it is feasible because I do not know if yet if if the user will move enough to provide the remote all the necessary energy User Interface: Mm Mm We we might check with our R and D department to see if they have this product ready for market Industrial Designer: And and so can you go to the next slide please So and that is that summarize well what I have said So you are right we can see in our R and D if the kinetic metal is sufficient to provide enough energy User Interface: So I keep in touch with the R and D department Industrial Designer: I take care it is all right User Interface: So the titanium case is the normal case that I will show you some pictures that I have and you tell me whether they are titanium case or not Because I am not very sure plastic titanium or whatever There is another point I want to make is that the well you have seen them I le na my presentation that I point out some why buttons are not the mm not the only ways you can use maybe n

The team talked about using a battery on the remote control and discussed different types of energy, they would find out if the kinetic metal was sufficient to provide enough energy. As to the shape of the remote control, there should be a curve which would fit into users' hands when they grab the remote control. They discussed material used to design the case of remote control, such as plastic or titanium, but they were still discussing which one should be used.

Industrial Designer: so the first thing I have done is to to made a review together with the manufactural department and have which components was available to build a remote control So for energy sources we have we have to choose between the solar energy hand dynamo and kinetic well kinetic technique to to store the energy We also we also can put a regular battery in the in the remote control Now Project Manager: this is what we have decided in the last meeting But if we use battery Industrial Designer: b f well I meant by by battery I meant I will not have a a wire between the remote control and the energy source but I did not fou we did not decide yet which kind of battery we will put inside the the remote So it is a point to discuss Then the case material we have also several choices like wood rubber titanium or latex But well it is not a a re well a real issue for the from the technical point of view Concerning the interface we can we can put mm just simple buttons or scrolls or buttons much more complicated but it also requires that the chip to process the button is more complicated so And this is the last point the choice of chips So what I have f found is that I think basic battery or kinetic energy collection is the is the better way to provide energy because I think solar energy wi will not work in a cluttered environment So so I think we can start with these two main things For the case well I think that titanium is is a good choice because it is trendy and it is it is well it is modern and user are are are mm will be very happy to have a a a nice remote For the interface I think that we can ach achieve all the desired functionalities by s just using rubber buttons simple buttons and th thus this allow to use a regular chip that are well cheaper And s so we can move to the next slide User Interface: What is this single curved what does it mean ? Industrial Designer: Well i i it is it is the the shape of the of the remote User Interface: So it is it is not Industrial Designer: You you will have the well the the curve will fit into your hand when you grab the User Interface: Yo l When you hold on it it is comfortable to hold Industrial Designer: It is more confog f comfortable that if these it is completely flat User Interface: And the battery is it kind of a rechargeable or it does not matter ? Industrial Designer: the that is the point The kinetic one is y you can recharge by the User Interface: That that is what it means by kinetic Industrial Designer: and by well by just by moving the ar your arm the mm well the remote will accumulate energy But I d I do not know it is if it is feasible because I do not know if yet if if the user will move enough to provide the remote all the necessary energy User Interface: Mm Mm We we might check with our R and D department to see if they have this product ready for market Industrial Designer: And and so can you go to the next slide please So and that is that summarize well what I have said So you are right we can see in our R and D if the kinetic metal is sufficient to provide enough energy User Interface: So I keep in touch with the R and D department Industrial Designer: I take care it is all right

The team could choose from the basic battery, kinetic battery and solar energy. Solar energy would not work in a cluttered environment. Kinetic battery was the one people could recharge by themselves. The team would find out if the kinetic metal was sufficient to provide enough energy.

Industrial Designer: So so I think we can start with these two main things For the case well I think that titanium is is a good choice because it is trendy and it is it is well it is modern and user are are are mm will be very happy to have a a a nice remote For the interface I think that we can ach achieve all the desired functionalities by s just using rubber buttons simple buttons and th thus this allow to use a regular chip that are well cheaper

Titanium case was trendy and modern. Users would be happy with it. But the team was still not very sure about the material of the case.

Marketing: So we just made an marketing survey of what people need from our remotes and how it could be special from the other remotes And we got the best on the responses from the questionnaires we also have some prizes for the most creative solutions And we found the following solutions which we could which would be helpful for our design So seventy percent of the users they find their remote controls very ugly they do not find it pleasant to use in the size or usage or anything And eighty percent of the people they are always l I mean they are willing to spend more money if the remote control would look fancy And the current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user And seventy five percent of the users said they zap a lot And fifty percent say they use only ten percent of the buttons so the rest of the ninety percent of the buttons they are not used most of the times So this were the findings which we found And also they cited frustrations with the present remote controls Most of fifty percent of the time the remote controls are lost somewhere in the room and people are always searching for them rather than watching the TV And by the time they found the remote control the program is finished So they are frustrated a lot And if the remote control is too complicated it takes much time to learn the functionality of it So you can just see the percentage fifty percent people they responded that they always lose their remotes and thirty four percent they say that it is quite difficult to learn if it is too complex So keeping in view all these findings and the frustrations I think this should be the solution for them We should have an LCD on the rem remote control Industrial Designer: Well mm w well I I I do not really see the advantage of having LCD on the on the remote control if we have a a a big screen and display on the screen of course it is fancy trendy and so on but it is it is expensive to produce and it is not really Marketing: I mean as our survey says that people are willing to pay more if their remotes are fancy So if we have a LCD on the remote rather than looking onto the TV you just look into a remote and navigate it It is the same menu as we have saw that iPod remote control Industrial Designer: but when you play with the iPod you do not have a big screen in front of you s Project Manager: You can use this screen instead of the big se screen User Interface: If you reuse the existing screen we element eliminate the LCD after all the LCD just to display and if you have the colourful screen you can make the display colourful fancy as fancy as the one on the LCD Marketing: I mean this were the points which we got from the market demands Industrial Designer: So I th I I well I think we we can focus on the on the fancy look on the User Interface: More on a fancy design Industrial Designer: on the speech recognition if the technology is available but well I think LCD will will make us spend a lot of money for not so big results User Interface: Mm Remember we have a s budget for the cost of producing the remote controller so the thing is you can find out how much an LCD will cost and then we will decide again Marketing: I mean that should be found out by the Industrial Designers User Interface: maybe you can find out the price and tell us next time Is i if i Industrial Designer: So price of LCD display Marketing: And it is always good to have an voice recognition for the remote controls User Interface: And also the cost for the speech recognition Ask our R and D department Project Manager: it is just for small vocabulary We it is not Marketing: it is o only for a limited vocabulary say eighty commands or so User Interface: And also the scroller button how much will it cost Industrial Designer: And Well compared to the to s the simpl simpler simplest button Marketing: Mm the scroll button from the survey we never see that people would like to have some scrolling button Because they they just they are just frightened to use the scrollings or help button Industrial Designer: I I I think that well as we have seen in the in the presentation well about fifty percent of the of the percent n choose the button User Interface: Do not use the buttons Industrial Designer: so I think to have five simple button is sufficient for our functionality Project Manager: It does not mean that the other buttons are not necessary or important But they are just less used compar Marketing: They are not used much Industrial Designer: But the the thing is is i is that we can add a functionality on the on the TV screen like a a list of function and then you choose with the with the button to well you navigate User Interface: So so the at most more power Project Manager: Or maybe we can you or maybe we can make this the ten percent of button more bigger than the others Industrial Designer: But if i i if we if we could have a a a display g a user interface that is very complete on the TV screen I think that just five buttons are sufficient one to go up left right down and enter and you you you just select the functionality you want to access or things like that You do not have to to switch to a channel to another Marketing: Or it could be like this as the people say if they have a LCD on the remote not on the television Because when you have the LCD onto the television screen you miss the picture in the background we are most focused on the commands So if you have then LCD in the remote you just have a menu and increasing and lower these signs here to change the programs and this menu when you press the menu in the LCD displays as you go on pressing the menu it faster displays volume then the program then the brightness contrast and all the stuff Industrial Designer: but if you look at the LCD you you do not look at the TV screen Marketing: And accordingly you can just increase or decrease Industrial Designer: so i i it is not really worth to get to have the image if you do not look at so Project Manager: And I think it is increases the cost of the the remote control if you use LCD I Marketing: that has to be checked out User Interface: I think that there is no contradiction here because if there are few buttons you do not have to look at your your controller any more because you know where the buttons are so if you want to control the screen d sh sharpness you just say sharpness and then you t turn you just press lef increase or decrease button and the same for the volume and the channel if you had the speech recognition there you just shout your channel just tell your channel and then you do not even have to look at the butto at the controller so finally that wil eliminates the the need for LCD with the help of speech recogniser you can Marketing: I mean better if we could just check all the cost with LCD and also with the speech recognition And then we could find which would would be a more suitable in this case And the third problem was to find the remote control Always so fifty percent of the people say they lose the remotes Industrial Designer: Well so we we can think about a well a a vocal command like find and when the remote control hears fine well just to make him beep or t Project Manager: You will listen to a peep special peep Marketing: that is right that is exactly what I mean by voice commander Or it could be also something like this it is always boring to change the batteries of the remotes control so we have some one charger there and whenever we do not use the remote control we put it in the charger User Interface: Put it back at the charge Marketing: And when we are using that t remote and if we misplace somewhere in the charger we have a small button and just by pressing the button in the charger the remote control beeps wherever it is Industrial Designer: And that is a good idea that is simple like in phones Marketing: I mean it doe it also does not require a voice command Project Manager: But you do not you do not have to move the the charger Marketing: because there are problems with a voice command Project Manager: You have to keep it Marketing: I mean charger would be fixed because it is always with electricity plugged Industrial Designer: if there if there there is nuff not enough battery Also and the remote is lost User Interface: Mm There is mm Mm That we can what we can do is we can program a function whereby when you press the switch off TV button the off button the remote there be s instruction on the screen please charge charge me You never get it lost because every time you are off the computer the TV you are asked the the command the TV com remote controller would tell you to put it back to where to the charger Marketing: It is an good reminder User Interface: So you will never get lost Project Manager: Maybe for some people lazy people User Interface: because everything is programmed inside So it is it is it is all about strategy y Marketing: And of course the final point is a fancy look As we have seen earlier the remotes which were displayed by Norman they were not fancy I mean mm very big or something with lot of buttons I think we should have something it Industrial Designer: Well the last one with the with the two parts was original so User Interface: With two two two parts controller Marketing: I mean I mean I mean you see if it is like that even a kid who wants to have a control he could just plug it and use it you can not avoid him But you can have an button for child lock So just by pressing the button with some code you t you put a lock onto the remote so that he can not use even Industrial Designer: Well we can think about having on the on the on the user interface when you switch on the TV you can well write a code or choose a category if it is kids things like that Project Manager: Or maybe you have to to show some specific programmes for kids and then just just just push kids button so it is automatically User Interface: Mm these are probl Mm Mm Mm Marketing: I think these other four points they are the market demands and so it is for the user interface design and industrial design to just think Industrial Designer: So for my part I will check the prices the the prices difference of what to use where to use and s and so on Marketing: I think it should be clearer for us in the next meeting that th these could be included User Interface: Mm I think we need to define also a s the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser because if you want say we can sort by channels or sort by TV programs you have to decide a category of vocabularies for them If numbers they are easy but if name the channel by by name Industrial Designer: Well I think we can we can have just numbers for channels and you can say to your remote control like sports and then on the TV you have a list with with well with sports program playing now Marketing: No we have a problem there You see if you have a voice commands and you are s you are watching a score on basketball score or something and if the score comes twenty four thirty five you have just say twenty five and suddenly the screen the channel goes to twenty five So I think there should be a prefix to some numbers Industrial Designer: Well but well e every possible word has a probability to come about of the TV so Marketing: I mean the the you just check all the probability that saying TV twenty five and just ordinary twenty five Ordinary twenty five you almost there is a probability of being said around sixty seventy percent and TV twenty five I do not know it will be round about one or two percent So it is better to have some prefix before the number User Interface: But I I I think that the user would like wou would like to associate the channel or call the channel rather than than the numbers You say numbe channel number five of the TV correspond to something else in the channel So some people may want to say I want to see this channel Marketing: That will be too big And it will be difficult for the vocabulary also User Interface: Check with the v R and D department the capability of recogniser Project Manager: It is difficult to to just say the the name of the channel It will be difficult to say just the name of the channel Because you have to s t a ch User Interface: Well it is convenient for the user Project Manager: but you have to to have all the name of the channel in your vocabulary Marketing: Als might be you just forgot the channel name you kno only know the number Project Manager: Or maybe the user can create his own vocabulary just pronouncing the the name of channels and include in the vocabulary User Interface: I I think that I have mm mm I think there is another way you can do is that you can if when the user ch press a button to choose the channel for example then what you can do is that the you can make the TV screen to split them into small little little squares of images where you you you have a snapshot of every channel so let us say it is a four by four matrix of the images so now what you do is f looking at the all the sixteen channels available at one time you just use the control button you just you you just choose the the option you want and then you just hit the button and then you go to that channel So Project Manager: Or let us the user create his own vocabulary of channel User Interface: Mm So you you do not use the speech recogniser in that way Project Manager: No Just you have in the beginning you have t you have to train you have to create the vocabulary by yourself By associating each channel with the name or Industrial Designer: I I also think about another problem if if there is more than one person who is watching TV Project Manager: And for each one has his own Industrial Designer: the s well the the speech r recogniser should be able to distinguish between the two Because I remember when I was a young child with my sister we we always want to w to watch different emission at the at the same time Project Manager: Or you have to s User Interface: I want to watch this I want to watch that Industrial Designer: so it is a pr it could be a problem if if well if someone passes by when you are watching TV and say oh TV thirty and just run s Marketing: A and in the same lines we would have a one more problem If we are using the television in the different environments say in the factories or in the shops where there is a lot of noise and this voice commands if they fail to work that would bring a bad name bad reputation for our company So I think we should specify some prerequirements if we want to use a voice commands say that it should be used in an silent homely environment or s something Project Manager: Or we can switch on or switch off the the special Marketing: that is right that should be an option Industrial Designer: that is well I think that is a good a good option because it is simple and simple to implement also so Marketing: I think these are the practical problems So we need to take care of them in the design Project Manager: Maybe we will discuss them in next meeting

The team discussed a marketing survey about remote controls. They agreed to design remote controls with more fancy outlook and less buttons. The remote control should be easier to find and less complicated so users take less time to learn the functionality of it and the team discussed how to implement this function. They also talked about voice recognition and the scroller button. Then they agreed to design a child lock. Users could open child lock by pressing the button with some code. At last they discussed the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser. They decided to put numbers and words in the vocabulary. But they realized that it would be a challenge to make the speech recogniser distinguish between different voices and deal with noises and they would keep on discussing it.

Marketing: And the third problem was to find the remote control Always so fifty percent of the people say they lose the remotes Industrial Designer: Well so we we can think about a well a a vocal command like find and when the remote control hears fine well just to make him beep or t Project Manager: You will listen to a peep special peep Marketing: that is right that is exactly what I mean by voice commander Or it could be also something like this it is always boring to change the batteries of the remotes control so we have some one charger there and whenever we do not use the remote control we put it in the charger User Interface: Put it back at the charge Marketing: And when we are using that t remote and if we misplace somewhere in the charger we have a small button and just by pressing the button in the charger the remote control beeps wherever it is Industrial Designer: And that is a good idea that is simple like in phones Marketing: I mean it doe it also does not require a voice command Project Manager: But you do not you do not have to move the the charger Marketing: because there are problems with a voice command Project Manager: You have to keep it Marketing: I mean charger would be fixed because it is always with electricity plugged Industrial Designer: if there if there there is nuff not enough battery Also and the remote is lost User Interface: Mm There is mm Mm That we can what we can do is we can program a function whereby when you press the switch off TV button the off button the remote there be s instruction on the screen please charge charge me You never get it lost because every time you are off the computer the TV you are asked the the command the TV com remote controller would tell you to put it back to where to the charger Marketing: It is an good reminder User Interface: So you will never get lost Project Manager: Maybe for some people lazy people User Interface: because everything is programmed inside So it is it is it is all about strategy y

The team decided that the remote control would beep if it got lost. Also, the remote control would be put on the fixed charger if users did not use it, so it would be hard to get lost.

User Interface: Mm I think we need to define also a s the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser because if you want say we can sort by channels or sort by TV programs you have to decide a category of vocabularies for them If numbers they are easy but if name the channel by by name Industrial Designer: Well I think we can we can have just numbers for channels and you can say to your remote control like sports and then on the TV you have a list with with well with sports program playing now Marketing: No we have a problem there You see if you have a voice commands and you are s you are watching a score on basketball score or something and if the score comes twenty four thirty five you have just say twenty five and suddenly the screen the channel goes to twenty five So I think there should be a prefix to some numbers Industrial Designer: Well but well e every possible word has a probability to come about of the TV so Marketing: I mean the the you just check all the probability that saying TV twenty five and just ordinary twenty five Ordinary twenty five you almost there is a probability of being said around sixty seventy percent and TV twenty five I do not know it will be round about one or two percent So it is better to have some prefix before the number User Interface: But I I I think that the user would like wou would like to associate the channel or call the channel rather than than the numbers You say numbe channel number five of the TV correspond to something else in the channel So some people may want to say I want to see this channel Marketing: That will be too big And it will be difficult for the vocabulary also User Interface: Check with the v R and D department the capability of recogniser Project Manager: It is difficult to to just say the the name of the channel It will be difficult to say just the name of the channel Because you have to s t a ch User Interface: Well it is convenient for the user Project Manager: but you have to to have all the name of the channel in your vocabulary Marketing: Als might be you just forgot the channel name you kno only know the number Project Manager: Or maybe the user can create his own vocabulary just pronouncing the the name of channels and include in the vocabulary User Interface: I I think that I have mm mm I think there is another way you can do is that you can if when the user ch press a button to choose the channel for example then what you can do is that the you can make the TV screen to split them into small little little squares of images where you you you have a snapshot of every channel so let us say it is a four by four matrix of the images so now what you do is f looking at the all the sixteen channels available at one time you just use the control button you just you you just choose the the option you want and then you just hit the button and then you go to that channel So Project Manager: Or let us the user create his own vocabulary of channel User Interface: Mm So you you do not use the speech recogniser in that way Project Manager: No Just you have in the beginning you have t you have to train you have to create the vocabulary by yourself By associating each channel with the name or Industrial Designer: I I also think about another problem if if there is more than one person who is watching TV Project Manager: And for each one has his own Industrial Designer: the s well the the speech r recogniser should be able to distinguish between the two Because I remember when I was a young child with my sister we we always want to w to watch different emission at the at the same time Project Manager: Or you have to s User Interface: I want to watch this I want to watch that Industrial Designer: so it is a pr it could be a problem if if well if someone passes by when you are watching TV and say oh TV thirty and just run s Marketing: A and in the same lines we would have a one more problem If we are using the television in the different environments say in the factories or in the shops where there is a lot of noise and this voice commands if they fail to work that would bring a bad name bad reputation for our company So I think we should specify some prerequirements if we want to use a voice commands say that it should be used in an silent homely environment or s something Project Manager: Or we can switch on or switch off the the special Marketing: that is right that should be an option Industrial Designer: that is well I think that is a good a good option because it is simple and simple to implement also so Marketing: I think these are the practical problems So we need to take care of them in the design Project Manager: Maybe we will discuss them in next meeting

Industrial Designer proposed that the team could have just numbers for channels and the speech recogniser should be able to distinguish between different voices and deal with noises.

Project Manager: Oh that It will not does not Maybe we should start with the the technical functions Industrial Designer: how can I get this on the whiteboard ? Project Manager: Well it is you dumped the file in the in the sh in the project document folder You have already done that ? Well let us close this one We will just open a new one well Yes Uhoh New thing Oh I have to say something due to some technical problems I have not digitized the last the meeting minutes But I will make sure that happens next time And I will get this one in digital form too Industrial Designer: Kay we are going to talk about working design the method of the remote control is electrical energy it activates a chip in the remote It is an electrical circuit which compose messages in the form of infrared signals to control the television Mm it is a nowadays very known a known technology the known technology can make a cost very low it is a wild a wide sale of remote controls in the world And and the components are very very cheap diodes bat batteries and LED lights they are needed and they are everywhere available again it is a fair price It is a common technology like I told the circuit board it is the most important part of the remote control we can use for that fibreglass with copper wires it is it is can be made as fast as printing paper It is it is all very they are making it all the time and it is not very specialised technology I have not come to here but I have got some images of remote controls They were not very trendy or just just a remote control like everyone knows So I do not know why I should put it here Project Manager: But it is the technical side of the remote control Industrial Designer: Yes but I have not made it because of the time Project Manager: Oh Well we will we will have to skip that part then But you do not think it is a problem to design the technical part of the remote control ? It is going to be easy ? User Interface: But nothing restricted for user interface ? Industrial Designer: no it is it is just a part of a known technology Remote control is nothing special nowadays Project Manager: R regardless of what type of functions we want to implement Does not really matter Industrial Designer: I do not think so because of the all the televisions there are a few maybe a couple of televisions with the new functions but is it useful to put them on a on a standard remote ? Project Manager: Well we will see We will see later on User Interface: Well the technical functions well I do not know if you got the same pictures as I got but I got these two and I think they are we have to focus on the one hand the expert view or the novice user th I think it is it is very much depending on the user requirements I do not s know who is doing t Project Manager: Well will there be some user requirements later on ? The ones I I have received from the account manager User Interface: but it I think that is very important to watch what kind of functions there we want to put in a remote control Project Manager: Well we will keep this in mind and then discuss it later on User Interface: well y we can put functions in it when when we get the user requirements and we can update it Project Manager: Uhhuh but this real this big d distinction between this type of remote we should we should choose one we should not compromise but really choose for expert viewer or novice v ? Well what that is what you want trying to say User Interface: Well w if you want try a a a huge market if you want to reach a huge market like elderly people and we have to choose for novice user But I do not know It is it is really depending on how how how far the the the remote controls are already in n in use Project Manager: well some of these Well some of that will but i but it will be more clear when we come to the you some of the new requirements User Interface: well there are l at least basic functions like just th the channels one till nine on and off switch which must be clear with a red button or something like that most standard have volume of course and a mute function and of course the next and previous channel I think that is just basic what we need And from that on we can user requirements what we need more I just I thought Joost was looking at the trendy the trends in the markets and I do not know if there are any if you put more functions more buttons maybe it is com becoming less trendy or something like that M you can just you can k Marketing: I have not really found a conclusion like that User Interface: you can keep it in mind that I do not know I th I thought the the with less buttons you can make a more trendier more trendier design I think I think well that is all I have to say I think Project Manager: Well then the Marketing expert can tell us something about the current market Marketing: It is alright Alright I have done some research for functional requirements yes The working method there were hundred w h one hundred people how do you say f watched using remote controls in the usability lab and they also filled out a questionnaire with a few questions I have lined them up here ask whether common remote control looks good or not about willingness to spend money on remote control about zapping behaviour and and stuff like that I have found some interesting things We do we do got a market three out of four people claim m to find remote controls ugly So if we make a trendy design we sure have seventy fi seventy five percent of the market which you can reach three out of four users zaps a lot as I quoted here from the results Zap buttons are used one hundred and sixty eight times per hour That is quite a lot relevant options are of course power buttons Although only used once per hour channel selection volume and buttons for text and the more other functions like audio settings video settings sound settings are not said to be very important and very much used Furthermore fifty percent says they only use ten percent of the buttons on a remote control That does not say we got we can leave ninety percent off But it sure says we should not make it too complicated Fifty percent also claims to have lost a remote control very often in the room And an important thing here the most important customers which is over seventy percent of our market is in the age range of thirty six to sixty five years old And elderly people our market are less interested in nice features but more willingly to spend more money on remote controls So what I was thinking oh wrong side We should not implement too much features on on our remote control because elderly people will get th lost Group features for a higher usability what I was claiming in the previous meeting all the settings about audio settings video settings and channel settings which are not very often used we could group them on one button and make them accessible in one menu button or whatever because they are used very rarely and well it there are a lot of options there so we can really make how do you say we can spare at buttons over there And if you want to implement VCR and DVD options group them in the button not too Small buttons so they will not be very how do you say Yes will not be very present thank you And a trendy look well although seventy percent of the market is consists of elderly people who do not really care for trendy looks or whatever I guess it can do no harm to make it trendy for the other thirty percent That was kind of what I found Project Manager: Well then we I am going to show you some of the new project requirements and then we going to discuss on what features we find important well some of the new requirements make some of your findings quite irrelevant I think Because s decided to put They have decide to put two additional requirements forward Well now I see four That is kind of strange Well they say tele teletext becomes outdated since the popularity of the internet Well I think that may be so but well we can not just leave the teletext button off It is impossible I think Marketing: No I agree I agree Project Manager: So the compromise we could make is just to make one teletext button you know like on and off and do not make a lot of special put a lot of special features on it to make it transparent or You know it is just you want you want to be able to make use of teletext but not to play with it that much So we have to think of that The remote control should only be used for television Otherwise the project becomes more complex which endangers the time t t ma the time to market So maybe we should leave all DVD and VCR related features off completely I do not know I think that that is what they are trying to say our current customers are within the age group of forty plus New products should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty So you talked about the elderly who were willing to spend more on a remote control and who were interested But well they are not relevant because we are aiming at a younger Marketing: I do not really agree actually to be honest It is a very small market which we will approach then if we want to reach customers younger than forty It is only like thirty percent of the total market Project Manager: but it is it is is a dif it is a fact that the th th that bigger market you are talking about we already cover that Our company already sells remote control to the older people but we we also want you know a new customer group That is the one we have not covered yet So I think that is what the problem is We have not got remote controls for Marketing: Maybe maybe we can compromise a little bit Project Manager: I think so Maybe if it is Marketing: Not too much then bu alright Project Manager: no no but I think we have to just keep in mind what the older age group wants So maybe we can make a remote control that is primarily interesting for the younger group but is not that bad for an older person either our corporate image sh should stay recognisable in our products Our products corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design something else nice to know User Interface: But what is our slogan ? Project Manager: Sorry ? you will have to look that up Marketing: I will have a look Project Manager: I think it is something about the Marketing: We put the fashion in electronics Project Manager: Oh I thought it w might be let us make things better or something but well let us go back to the the agenda So we have now had to the three presentations We know about the new project requirements That means we can well d discuss on the remote control functions Well if I can make a start I think it is becoming more clear what kind of remote control it is going to be and I already talked about the maybe you have a f familiar with the rem remote control that has the the can opener underneath it I think we are we are looking for some we we are looking for a really simple remote control with only basic TV functions Y well that Marketing: Well to be honest if our aim group is till forty not older than forty maybe that is not very we do not really need to have a simple remote control I think we can implement more functions then because basically the younger people are more able to adapt to new technology and therefore will be a more Project Manager: M that is why well a lot of the use the requirements the the account manager sent me I think they are are c are contradicting each other because they want a simpler design and no other s functions than just TV but they s do aim at a younger User Interface: but you sai you said that that a lot of functions are not used So why should j we put this function in ? I think more I think people younger people are more looking for just a trendy look than more functions Project Manager: But I think you we can make some discuss distinctions in what kin in the know th th in functions you have Y Well you have different kind of equipment in your room like a t TV and a DVD player You can know you you can make very d you can put very detailed functions regarding the TV set on your remote control with the with the you know audio settings and v screen settings We do not want that I think that was that became clear We do not want But w maybe we should put some func I know that the younger people will most likely have a DVD player they want to you know they want to User Interface: d but th the functions are not in the remote control we are making Project Manager: No th th the user requirements of the the The new project requirements told us not to But maybe w I think we maybe should well we should put some functions for other maybe for other equipment on it But just the basic functions Maybe like rewind and wind or n what d what do you guys think ? Industrial Designer: But you can put them under the same button Marketing: Not much more than that Project Manager: if as far as possible Marketing: Yep Or we can you you we could put them behind the flipflap or whatever Project Manager: But what do you think ? Do th should we implement features that or functions that to control other devices ? No you do not think so ? User Interface: No new requirements say no Project Manager: the new requirements say so Industrial Designer: But you can put a play and stop and and rewind Project Manager: maybe there there there is something th m most of the time these functions do not support the particular device as well as their their own remote control You know a lot of DVD players have some tricky settings with User Interface: I i if it is too simple th they will not use the remote control they use their own th th with lot more functions Project Manager: Yep exactly That is that is wha Marketing: But but for for example VCR that is better example in this case I think on a remote control for television you do not need to be able to programme the VCR to start recording at three PM or whatever Project Manager: No no you do not No no you do not need it No no Marketing: just play stop rewind and fast forward Project Manager: but we have to think w we have to think DVD I th I guess so but from my experience it is kind of a lot of DVD players you know like forwarding goes differently you get two speed or eight speed or sixteen speed It is c sometimes a bit difficult Maybe if we just leave the DVD functional m Well I was thinking about putting it in but concerning the project requirements and what you just said I think we m should focus on the TV then User Interface: but just keep it simple and look more at th Project Manager: And and it is just an a complimentary remote and not a universal one If you want to keep it simple you can make a universal remote User Interface: No It is only for television So Project Manager: It is just a s it it should be something that is like a gadget on your coffee table Industrial Designer: Yes but there are there are Project Manager: and it is just for when you you you jump on the couch you pick up the the the nice remote the simple one just to put on the television nothing more Industrial Designer: But how wi how will you be able to handle a whole market ? There are a dozen of dozens of of remote controls that have Project Manager: we we will make w this one trendy User Interface: The user interface is easy Project Manager: Well we we will come to that but ju first on the on the functions So we should put zap buttons on it also numbers to to go to the specific channels User Interface: And the basic basic functions It is too much integrated in the other Project Manager: a t a teletext button should be there But just one big teletext button on and off Marketing: and maybe two or three other options but not nothing more than that I think stop function is very useful If you have a a page which consists of more pages and you are not a very quick reader then I think it is very irritating if the next page shows up but Project Manager: but I think that becomes too difficult it is not a very common function and people will have to read up on their remote then Marketing: Well I use it very regularly the action I re I use it quite often Project Manager: but maybe you s maybe y you do but I have never heard of it in the first place And we have to well t and t and teletext is becoming outdated We just want to see what programmes are on and what time it is probably I do not know I think that that is kin getting too complex for our remote I do not know what you th guys think User Interface: I it is Sunday I always use it for the for the soccer Project Manager: but do you like to have a such a s stop button ? Or do you think it I think it is a kind of very rare and special function User Interface: Well when you when you look for example a couple of weeks ago I looked at the for the flights and there are a lot of flights in one page so if if th Project Manager: it goes but that is kind of stuff we should do on the internet right now That is why it was said in the in the use in the r new requirements Industrial Designer: Yes but you could put on the z on the zap buttons you can put it to to access all the same pages If you have seven pages you can go up and down Project Manager: lots of new televisions can store pages you know and then you can just skip manually through them using I think we should just put one teletext button on it Then we meet the new requirements we also meet the other thin y you sh you just re we have to choose for the the simple design I guess well what functions do we have to decide on ? Or do we I do not know if we have t stif specifically name all the functions we n we want We have the zap and the volume Should we do m make them very big ? The the the zap button D d Marketing: I think the plus and the minus button should be quite present Project Manager: Th that is that is that is considered to be trendy also Or maybe you should place them on a in a special way ? Industrial Designer: Maybe we can make a kind of a joystick Project Manager: something or somethin special way to to zap through the it has to s it has to be and quick You have to use it very quickly Marketing: If you grab the remote your hands should be on top of the plus Project Manager: and it the buttons should make it possible to to zap through your channels in a rapid at a rapid pace Oh what should we decide on then ? I think in a in a case of this simple remote control the technical aspects which were not worked out already but it w should not be a problem then Industrial Designer: No it is o just signals and the television d does the rest Project Manager: No but we do not have to when we do not want to control other devices I think it makes it even more simple User Interface: maybe we the batteries maybe If you use large batteries or small batter batteries Project Manager: I think that we should use d not not the b the watch kind th the most Well it has to be simple and I wi Which are most likely to be found somewhere in the house you know

Industrial Designer believed that the working design did not involve specialised technologies and therefore would not cost much or be difficult. User Interface questioned this statement by arguing that the technical functions depended on the user requirements. The team discussed this point and then agreed that the remote control should be for novice users. Later on, Project Manager suggested going through market research results delivered by Marketing and the new requirements shown by themself. These clarified the directions of design and then the team agreed to include simple functions, certain large buttons, etc.

Marketing: It is alright Alright I have done some research for functional requirements yes The working method there were hundred w h one hundred people how do you say f watched using remote controls in the usability lab and they also filled out a questionnaire with a few questions I have lined them up here ask whether common remote control looks good or not about willingness to spend money on remote control about zapping behaviour and and stuff like that I have found some interesting things We do we do got a market three out of four people claim m to find remote controls ugly So if we make a trendy design we sure have seventy fi seventy five percent of the market which you can reach three out of four users zaps a lot as I quoted here from the results Zap buttons are used one hundred and sixty eight times per hour That is quite a lot relevant options are of course power buttons Although only used once per hour channel selection volume and buttons for text and the more other functions like audio settings video settings sound settings are not said to be very important and very much used Furthermore fifty percent says they only use ten percent of the buttons on a remote control That does not say we got we can leave ninety percent off But it sure says we should not make it too complicated Fifty percent also claims to have lost a remote control very often in the room And an important thing here the most important customers which is over seventy percent of our market is in the age range of thirty six to sixty five years old And elderly people our market are less interested in nice features but more willingly to spend more money on remote controls So what I was thinking oh wrong side We should not implement too much features on on our remote control because elderly people will get th lost Group features for a higher usability what I was claiming in the previous meeting all the settings about audio settings video settings and channel settings which are not very often used we could group them on one button and make them accessible in one menu button or whatever because they are used very rarely and well it there are a lot of options there so we can really make how do you say we can spare at buttons over there And if you want to implement VCR and DVD options group them in the button not too Small buttons so they will not be very how do you say Yes will not be very present thank you And a trendy look well although seventy percent of the market is consists of elderly people who do not really care for trendy looks or whatever I guess it can do no harm to make it trendy for the other thirty percent That was kind of what I found Project Manager: Well then we I am going to show you some of the new project requirements and then we going to discuss on what features we find important well some of the new requirements make some of your findings quite irrelevant I think Because s decided to put They have decide to put two additional requirements forward Well now I see four That is kind of strange Well they say tele teletext becomes outdated since the popularity of the internet Well I think that may be so but well we can not just leave the teletext button off It is impossible I think Marketing: No I agree I agree Project Manager: So the compromise we could make is just to make one teletext button you know like on and off and do not make a lot of special put a lot of special features on it to make it transparent or You know it is just you want you want to be able to make use of teletext but not to play with it that much So we have to think of that The remote control should only be used for television Otherwise the project becomes more complex which endangers the time t t ma the time to market So maybe we should leave all DVD and VCR related features off completely I do not know I think that that is what they are trying to say our current customers are within the age group of forty plus New products should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty So you talked about the elderly who were willing to spend more on a remote control and who were interested But well they are not relevant because we are aiming at a younger Marketing: I do not really agree actually to be honest It is a very small market which we will approach then if we want to reach customers younger than forty It is only like thirty percent of the total market Project Manager: but it is it is is a dif it is a fact that the th th that bigger market you are talking about we already cover that Our company already sells remote control to the older people but we we also want you know a new customer group That is the one we have not covered yet So I think that is what the problem is We have not got remote controls for

Project Manager considered it necessary to focus on customers younger aged below forty because they have potential needs to be fulfilled. By contrast, Marketing believed that the project should target a large group rather than only people younger than forty.

Marketing: Well to be honest if our aim group is till forty not older than forty maybe that is not very we do not really need to have a simple remote control I think we can implement more functions then because basically the younger people are more able to adapt to new technology and therefore will be a more Project Manager: M that is why well a lot of the use the requirements the the account manager sent me I think they are are c are contradicting each other because they want a simpler design and no other s functions than just TV but they s do aim at a younger User Interface: but you sai you said that that a lot of functions are not used So why should j we put this function in ? I think more I think people younger people are more looking for just a trendy look than more functions

User Interface did not like the idea of putting lots of functions in the remote control because younger people were looking for a trendy look rather than multiple functions.

Project Manager: But that is that is Do you have you have you think about tha thought about that ? How we can what the extra touch can be Do you suggest design or the shape or some gadget f f kind of feature or Well it was something about how we lose them Maybe it should be a remote control when you you clap you hands it makes some noise or some gadget kind of thing Marketing: I think that is n that is more for a for an age range or ten to twelve or whatever User Interface: To find him That is maybe Project Manager: I do not know I do not know Nah a lot of people like to have such kind kind of kind of gay kind of things It w it w should be like a birthday present or something that you give someone and it is i has something nice Marketing: that is good one yep Project Manager: Or maybe it w should have a big light that can flash or something on it or maybe it should or an or the like the the can opener Maybe it contains some feature that you do not normally link to a remote control I think it is very impor because we are going to make such a basic remote control we have to do something to make it special It is going to cost twenty five Euros Marketing: Ye I think the can opener i is a brilliant idea actually because television and beer is not a rare combination Project Manager: but the well it is already been done Nah that is true But and I think it is going to be very it has to be sturdy or something so maybe with with bouncing pads so that you can just throw it on the floor or something it has to be used something special and you really it has to you know y not s people when they buy it they have to think well this one lasts for a long time We are really going to use them Not some thing you you throw away next week you know So maybe that is i I think that is when when we decide on these type of functions know basic functions it is very important to find something like this So there is a very important task for you And maybe we can all think about it also for you maybe when t you it is very nice when you can be entra when you can be trendy and and and al as in a friend use friendly as well you know So big buttons flashy design and maybe some kind of gadget kind of thing Marketing: a swapable front or whatever Project Manager: or just different colours would be I do not know if people also want to spend more money on fronts for their remote control It could be be you never know but But it and I think we have to make it quite big User Interface: Quite big you think ? Industrial Designer: That is to be a formed for your hand Project Manager: So and and also because it is expensive If you want it to be something you know it is ha does not have much functions want to be you do not want to get it l make it Marketing: Yes it it it should be f be visible nearly anywhere in the room As I as I said during my presentation fifty percent o Project Manager: Mmhmm And shou and should ni look nice when you put it on a table I I think you m might want to put it that it it it it stands up you have to put it on its So it is like a vase or something you put on a table no no put stuff inside it But it is like like a statue or something Industrial Designer: More like a joystick then Marketing: I see what you mean yep User Interface: It is like you have four phones Something like that Project Manager: but but you also can put it somewhere near the window in Marketing: If you do that but I do not know if that is possible within the production cost of twelve and a half Euros Project Manager: That it is it is fashionable Marketing: I in in the base we could like make a button and if you push it the remote control itself s makes noise That is probably stupid but as I found here fifty percent was it fifty ? Industrial Designer: But that is that is fun for the first time and then the second Marketing: fifty percent fifty percent often loses remote control Project Manager: but but when you when it gets lost how can you press the button to make it Marketing: No of the base the the the the the the the thing you put it in Project Manager: that is kind of nice Marketing: If an a button in in that Project Manager: And then also you do not even need batteries because you can make it chargeable Marketing: you can ma make rechargeable one Why not Project Manager: that w but the pro No well I think that it might be t p Well nee but we do not Maybe you but we do not know much about production cost but when you you can imagine that when you spend twenty five Euros on a remote control and it is a basic remote control then the then the money there must be money to spend on that kind of st you know rechargeable units Marketing: It should only cost twelve and a half Euros of course Aye ? Project Manager: but we would d ma we would do it in Taiwan and So it is not going to be that expen I I think it is a great idea User Interface: It should be possible I think it is a good idea Project Manager: S some kind of be I have never seen that before and you make it be you see it with the mo the mouses nowadays User Interface: To make a base or something ? Industrial Designer: Yes but is that handy ? Project Manager: Well I well it is really ch you can recharge it so you ha never have the battery problem That is one User Interface: It is it is it is it is Project Manager: And you can always find your remote control up User Interface: it is not the purpose to be handy it is Industrial Designer: But but remote controls remote controls nowadays can can last two years three years with with t two batteries Project Manager: Well maybe you could when that is when it is too costly you could probably skip the recharger but you will you do need also an also you would need a battery in the the base unit as well you know Does it makes it kind of Marketing: Well y you you could connect that to two hundred to twenty volts of course User Interface: Mm but that is not it is ugly I think Project Manager: but then it is very easy to make it also a rechargeab I do not think that is going to cost much to make it also a recharge function in it Marketing: On the other hand if you do not do it we can also make a nice bay I mean it looks trendy and still still put a bleep function in it but I think the bay is definitely Project Manager: I think it is a good idea And make it you know we we Well we it is it is not a t a most costly remote control We can save on the on the functions We just put some simple button in make it big and sturdy nothing more and just make s sure there is some noise that it can make or probably some kind of cheap light thing around it or that it that it lights up it is also nice And if you put it away I think it is w we have to we that is it is not a easy market We have to something special And for twenty five Euros people want something remote c special from your mote control and we can not deliver that in r with regards to the functions because we are not going to put Marketing: With eye candy ear candy whatever definitely Project Manager: And then when make it you know nice looking shape and this and then you also you got the standup thing I think I think it is a good idea User Interface: it must be must be a gadget to have Project Manager: Oh if it let us well we will see what is possible concerning the the costs and if it is possible we will do that And we even try to save up on other stuff to make sure we can do such a thing And the first thing we the most likeable thing to to n to skip is then probably the recharge function or something If that is too expensive we will not do that But it would be nice Marketing: It would be nice yes Project Manager: It is the idea I know that batteries last long nowadays And and what people just think about well I will never have to buy any r batteries again so y b because it is very annoying when your battery is empty And you know then when you have not batteries around and probably for two weeks your remo I have experienced that that Marketing: Most televisions break down before the battery pack is empty so yes Project Manager: So easy functions Well we will we will I think we will work that out zapping numbers on it bi User Interface: Or just give a beep when the batterys out or down Project Manager: But it is also annoying because as long as it stays as it ke keeps working you are not very motivated to do something about it Then it beeps all the time and You do not want to have ever have those problems and you will not have if if you have the rechargeable And you do not have to use the unit you can also put it on the side if people do not like it i i in the in the ma Industrial Designer: But you pay for it Project Manager: but it w I mean if if they pay for it because they think oh that is a great idea I am going to use it And when it you know when time goes by and they think well I will never put him in the recharger I think last long enough then they put it on side and they can use it now and then Then when they look get m I I I know for sure that everybody who buys this remote control within a couple of months of they will be in the situation that they they are seeking for the remote control they want to see something quick and just push the button and th I think it is brilliant Marketing: Bleep bleep bleep oh there it is Project Manager: I have never it is so simple but I have never seen it M maybe we should really do this User Interface: And you can leave it just there Project Manager: now well how much time have we got left ? These clocks are not synched

At first, Project Manager pointed out that the key lied in users' pain point, which was the trouble of losing remote controls. The team then started brainstorming in this direction, coming up with ideas such as a can opener, bouncing pads, big buttons, flashy design, changeable fronts, etc. Later on, Project Manager put forward the idea of having a gadget like a vase to be put on the table, for containing the remote control. This idea then developed into one containing a base that could charge and track the remote control.

Project Manager: that it it it it stands up you have to put it on its So it is like a vase or something you put on a table no no put stuff inside it But it is like like a statue or something Industrial Designer: More like a joystick then Marketing: I see what you mean yep User Interface: It is like you have four phones Something like that Project Manager: but but you also can put it somewhere near the window in Marketing: If you do that but I do not know if that is possible within the production cost of twelve and a half Euros Project Manager: That it is it is fashionable Marketing: I in in the base we could like make a button and if you push it the remote control itself s makes noise That is probably stupid but as I found here fifty percent was it fifty ? Industrial Designer: But that is that is fun for the first time and then the second Marketing: fifty percent fifty percent often loses remote control Project Manager: but but when you when it gets lost how can you press the button to make it Marketing: No of the base the the the the the the the thing you put it in Project Manager: that is kind of nice Marketing: If an a button in in that Project Manager: And then also you do not even need batteries because you can make it chargeable Marketing: you can ma make rechargeable one Why not Project Manager: that w but the pro No well I think that it might be t p Well nee but we do not Maybe you but we do not know much about production cost but when you you can imagine that when you spend twenty five Euros on a remote control and it is a basic remote control then the then the money there must be money to spend on that kind of st you know rechargeable units Marketing: It should only cost twelve and a half Euros of course Aye ? Project Manager: but we would d ma we would do it in Taiwan and So it is not going to be that expen I I think it is a great idea User Interface: It should be possible I think it is a good idea Project Manager: S some kind of be I have never seen that before and you make it be you see it with the mo the mouses nowadays User Interface: To make a base or something ? Industrial Designer: Yes but is that handy ? Project Manager: Well I well it is really ch you can recharge it so you ha never have the battery problem That is one User Interface: It is it is it is it is Project Manager: And you can always find your remote control up User Interface: it is not the purpose to be handy it is Industrial Designer: But but remote controls remote controls nowadays can can last two years three years with with t two batteries Project Manager: Well maybe you could when that is when it is too costly you could probably skip the recharger but you will you do need also an also you would need a battery in the the base unit as well you know Does it makes it kind of Marketing: Well y you you could connect that to two hundred to twenty volts of course User Interface: Mm but that is not it is ugly I think Project Manager: but then it is very easy to make it also a rechargeab I do not think that is going to cost much to make it also a recharge function in it Marketing: On the other hand if you do not do it we can also make a nice bay I mean it looks trendy and still still put a bleep function in it but I think the bay is definitely Project Manager: I think it is a good idea And make it you know we we Well we it is it is not a t a most costly remote control We can save on the on the functions We just put some simple button in make it big and sturdy nothing more and just make s sure there is some noise that it can make or probably some kind of cheap light thing around it or that it that it lights up it is also nice And if you put it away I think it is w we have to we that is it is not a easy market We have to something special And for twenty five Euros people want something remote c special from your mote control and we can not deliver that in r with regards to the functions because we are not going to put Marketing: With eye candy ear candy whatever definitely Project Manager: And then when make it you know nice looking shape and this and then you also you got the standup thing I think I think it is a good idea User Interface: it must be must be a gadget to have Project Manager: Oh if it let us well we will see what is possible concerning the the costs and if it is possible we will do that And we even try to save up on other stuff to make sure we can do such a thing And the first thing we the most likeable thing to to n to skip is then probably the recharge function or something If that is too expensive we will not do that

Project Manager believed that money spent on the rechargeable units was necessary because other elements of the remote control were just basic. In addition, Project Manager thought it would not cost much if the product was produced in Taiwan. However, it was acknowledged that cost could probably be a concern so he/ she decided to only do that if the cost was fair.

Project Manager: that it it it it stands up you have to put it on its So it is like a vase or something you put on a table no no put stuff inside it But it is like like a statue or something Industrial Designer: More like a joystick then Marketing: I see what you mean yep User Interface: It is like you have four phones Something like that Project Manager: but but you also can put it somewhere near the window in Marketing: If you do that but I do not know if that is possible within the production cost of twelve and a half Euros Project Manager: That it is it is fashionable Marketing: I in in the base we could like make a button and if you push it the remote control itself s makes noise That is probably stupid but as I found here fifty percent was it fifty ? Industrial Designer: But that is that is fun for the first time and then the second Marketing: fifty percent fifty percent often loses remote control Project Manager: but but when you when it gets lost how can you press the button to make it Marketing: No of the base the the the the the the the thing you put it in Project Manager: that is kind of nice Marketing: If an a button in in that Project Manager: And then also you do not even need batteries because you can make it chargeable Marketing: you can ma make rechargeable one Why not Project Manager: that w but the pro No well I think that it might be t p Well nee but we do not Maybe you but we do not know much about production cost but when you you can imagine that when you spend twenty five Euros on a remote control and it is a basic remote control then the then the money there must be money to spend on that kind of st you know rechargeable units Marketing: It should only cost twelve and a half Euros of course Aye ? Project Manager: but we would d ma we would do it in Taiwan and So it is not going to be that expen I I think it is a great idea User Interface: It should be possible I think it is a good idea Project Manager: S some kind of be I have never seen that before and you make it be you see it with the mo the mouses nowadays User Interface: To make a base or something ? Industrial Designer: Yes but is that handy ? Project Manager: Well I well it is really ch you can recharge it so you ha never have the battery problem That is one User Interface: It is it is it is it is Project Manager: And you can always find your remote control up User Interface: it is not the purpose to be handy it is Industrial Designer: But but remote controls remote controls nowadays can can last two years three years with with t two batteries Project Manager: Well maybe you could when that is when it is too costly you could probably skip the recharger but you will you do need also an also you would need a battery in the the base unit as well you know Does it makes it kind of

To Industrial Designer, remote controls could last a long time with two batteries. Therefore, it might not be necessary or attractive enough to customers in his/ her opinion.

Project Manager: now I hope everybody has a little bit more insight in the functions we all have and what we are doing right now I am the Project Manager so I am here to mess things up and tell you some new requirements that is we have got to design a remote which is only suitable for TV that is because it will be too complex and the time to market will be too big if we want to have it for more functions So it has to be simple another point is we have to skip the teletext because in the world of upcoming internet we think teletext is going to be a thing of the past And it is a function we do not need in our remote control internet is also mentioned in a function we can use maybe also on televisions it will be available as well Another one is the customer is forty plus that is the the market we have to to to target because we are going to develop a new product which is specially designed for the younger customers this is a bit pity for the Marketing Expert Because he was aiming on the the younger persons So we have to find a market which is above forty plus but which will suit our remote control and the other way round And we have to be very attent in putting the corporate image in our product So it has to be visible in our design in the way our device works And we have to be very clear on this point as well So I suggest let us have a discussion on the control functions Marketing: So is there any discussion possible about the new product requirement ? Project Manager: we can see if we can find a way between the functions we want to use and the market we want to reach with our product Marketing: because you are you are saying that teletext is going to be an old feature and it is not going to be used anymore anyway pretty soon And new TVs will have internet access on them But I think if you are targeting people of forty plus the chance that they will have a TV with internet access within the next like twenty years is very slim In addition people indicated that teletext simply was an important feature for the remote control So I think it is pretty dumb to put no teletext feature on it I am pretty much against it Project Manager: Against the no teletext ? Marketing: Besides that I think the market for forty plus is like pretty small But I mean if I s if I see this it is I think we are just going to go for another Project Manager: No I think we can I think we can do a lot with the design and the simple buttons which were also mentioned if we put a lot of effort in those we can make a remote control with just two or three buttons Or just a remote which is suitable for the market we want to reach because it is forty percent of the market And if you look in Holland at the whole generation of forty plus fifty plus it it is the the biggest share of the of the whole population now Marketing: Yes but it is not the biggest part of the market And besides that they are not very critical so I mean they do not really care what the remote control is like They will just pretty much take the first thing they see and which looks acceptable Project Manager: But do not you think that if we make a remote which is typically made for this market that people think the people think that is the the device I have looked for although I did not realise it So let us try it Marketing: No I think that would be the case in the sixteen to forty five age category because they are critical and they they want to have a fancy remote control People of forty plus I mean they want it to work but as soo as soon as it works it is with them Industrial Designer: I think that if we are If we put our marketing right we can sell this just like I do not know if you have heard about it in the news the the elderly mobile phone ? Project Manager: It is a big success Industrial Designer: if we if we make a remote control just l with that idea in mind we could make tons of money I think Marketing: I have not heard of it Project Manager: I think so as well Industrial Designer: We do not have to focus on on on the on the design then but on functionality We just change our focus on the project and I think we can we can sell this

Project Manager announced that the remote control ought to be only suitable for TV, and that teletext as an outmoded function should be skipped, while internet access becomes an optional function. Meanwhile, target customers are specified as 40 plus. However, Project Manager's requirements of no teletext and design simplification were effectively challenged and rebutted by Marketing. As a result, the focus on the project was changed from design to functionality.