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Geoffrey Nunberg: Sharp Tongue

Linguist and author Geoffrey Nunberg discusses his new book The Years of Talking Dangerously and the way in which the media, politicians, and all of us use words to not say what we really mean.

30

'100.17': I was trying to communicate something I '101.939': might have communicated it more artfully '103.92': with the way but which is true I mean he '105.869': might have said way to go guys and '107.82': saving himself a lot of trouble but '109.11': we're still here in the Vice President '11.73': we had a White House press office '110.85': Cheney on quote enhanced interrogation '113.67': techniques and whether they're torture '116.399': and whether they're needed but that '118.229': phrase itself was it invented by the '12.87': telling us there was no civil war in '120.899': Bush administration as best I can tell '122.43': it was invented a couple of years ago by '124.5': that by the Bush administration in an '125.7': oddly or well and crude Orwellian ISM '128.66': for an administration I mean that that '130.92': was pretty deft for the most part it '132.959': coming '133.36': with phrases that when they stand up '135.43': will stand down that sort of thing that '137.14': ownership society you mentioned clear '139.48': skies they they were quite good at '140.74': language not not just at phrasing these '142.78': things but at getting the Congressional '146.41': Caucus the think tanks the radio host '149.44': all on the same page so that you just '15.48': Iraq just sectarian violence aimed at '151.6': heard these over and over and over again '153.04': and was there ever a clear definition of '156.0': enhanced interrogation as distinct from '158.77': torture or was the very point to blur '160.87': that line oh no at the point was '162.85': absolutely to blur the idea is if you '164.29': don't say what Rumsfeld called the '166.72': torture word somehow it's okay and the '170.47': idea the question is a whether it '171.76': qualifies as torture which is really a '174.07': linguistic question became for them of '178.12': policy and and and moral right and wrong '18.39': expressing differences it seems like '180.16': so do you see President Obama making a '182.38': conscious effort to replace key words '185.2': and phrases from the Bush administration '187.24': for example whatever it is we're '188.62': fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan is not '190.99': called the global war on terror anymore '192.88': is it no it's it's it's it's it's been '194.8': supposed to be branded has it been '198.22': rebranded well it hasn't been rebranded '20.67': only yesterday that the ownership '200.17': and in the Obama administration for the '203.65': most part apart from making some little '205.69': tweaks in language so the toxic assets '207.79': become legacy assets and so on has for '210.82': the most part stayed away from trying to '213.22': come up with these sweeping buzzwords '214.75': and catch phrases now you do have this '216.16': phrase new foundation which show Obama's '219.22': been working into every speech we '22.14': society was the buzz term being used to '220.66': originally mentioned in his inaugural '222.28': and it's clearly his play to get a new '225.61': deal Great Society what one of those but '228.28': to brand his domestic program something '230.2': that a lot of presidents have tried to '232.06': do and most have not succeeded remember '234.76': Bill Clinton came in talking about a new '236.709': covenant and he quickly dropped it he '239.019': had his new covenant Bush had his '24.57': encourage poor people to take subprime '241.12': ownership Society Nixon had the new '244.87': federalism Truman had his fair deal and '247.42': none of those really worked I don't '248.68': think it's a question of finding the '249.61': right language I think it's a question '250.93': of achieving as johnson did and his '253.92': roosevelt did a sweeping legislative '256.87': program that really changes the way '258.25': things are oh you mean the public '259.989': relations rhetoric matters less than the '26.789': mortgages rather than rent or that the '262.27': actual accomplishments i'm shocked it '264.25': indeed and and i think that's what the '266.53': laughs '266.889': few years show that all of the rhetoric '269.02': of the right on the one hand the '270.729': sloganeering of the Bush administration '271.99': on the other hand all of the full-out '276.099': culture war talk of the Republican '278.86': campaign this this last year Palin '28.949': push to weaken the Clean Air Act was '282.999': around with terrorists the pro-american '285.039': parts of this great country the the '287.08': chants of USA and so that all and the '289.449': jaws of a six-pack and and they just '295.029': didn't work and and in in that sense I '297.58': think when people sense a discrepancy '299.319': that's too great between words and '30.779': called the clear skies initiative do you '301.659': things the language does tear and open '305.259': rents that allow you to see the reality '306.639': behind it Geoffrey nunberg author of the '308.56': years of talking dangerously my guest on '310.629': WNYC the Berkeley linguist we're '313.029': certainly not hearing about the '314.229': ownership society anymore which was part '316.99': of the language used around the bush '318.31': plan to privatize Social Security but '320.5': also to move poor people from renting to '323.56': owning homes and some other things where '326.199': did that phrase come from you write '327.729': about it in the book ownership society '329.289': well in a way had to do with the '33.66': miss the language of the Bush '331.449': expansion of the word ownership itself '333.849': so you had corporations saying they '335.349': wanted employees to feel a sense of '336.789': ownership about their jobs which didn't '338.949': mean you get stock options it meant '34.739': administration '341.71': you're supposed to it's it's your ass on '343.689': the line so to speak if if something '346.389': goes wrong right and and my favorite '348.339': quote unquote along those lines was '35.61': now linguist Geoffrey nunberg says the '350.439': making us pay for our own health '352.18': insurance premiums as individuals '354.759': instead of having employer plans or '357.009': government plans that was called owning '359.289': our own health care rather than saddling '361.539': us with the bills or rather than putting '363.279': us on our own which which was about '365.56': really involved '37.829': language of the right has collapsed '39.45': though the Democrats have their own '41.219': linguistic challenges now that they are '43.11': in power you may know Geoffrey nunberg '44.55': from his language essays on fresh air or '46.98': in the New York Times or elsewhere now '49.2': some of them are collected in this '50.43': latest book called the years of speaking '52.739': dangerously some are political others '55.17': personal some pop cultural Jeffery '57.239': always great to have you on WNYC hello '59.1': hello and thank you for having me you '60.719': come right out and say the language of '62.85': the right has collapsed why do you put '65.64': it that way well because it has because '68.61': over the the last four years in '70.65': particular this language machine that '73.83': the write in general of the Bush '75.119': administration in particular had '76.86': assembled just began to unravel it began '79.619': to unravel when Bush said in 2006 we've '83.97': never been stay the course and even Fox '87.09': News felt obliged to run all the clips '89.28': of was saying stay the course stay the '9.32': well it seems like only yesterday that '90.93': course when Bush said just before the '93.75': 2008 election if they're asked if he had '96.869': any regrets said well mission '99.21': accomplished

/data/video_data.parquet/447/447259/nvZ4N2c8Dbw/360p_30.mp4

Geoffrey Nunberg: Sharp Tongue

Linguist and author Geoffrey Nunberg discusses his new book The Years of Talking Dangerously and the way in which the media, politicians, and all of us use words to not say what we really mean.

300

'100.17': I was trying to communicate something I '101.939': might have communicated it more artfully '103.92': with the way but which is true I mean he '105.869': might have said way to go guys and '107.82': saving himself a lot of trouble but '109.11': we're still here in the Vice President '11.73': we had a White House press office '110.85': Cheney on quote enhanced interrogation '113.67': techniques and whether they're torture '116.399': and whether they're needed but that '118.229': phrase itself was it invented by the '12.87': telling us there was no civil war in '120.899': Bush administration as best I can tell '122.43': it was invented a couple of years ago by '124.5': that by the Bush administration in an '125.7': oddly or well and crude Orwellian ISM '128.66': for an administration I mean that that '130.92': was pretty deft for the most part it '132.959': coming '133.36': with phrases that when they stand up '135.43': will stand down that sort of thing that '137.14': ownership society you mentioned clear '139.48': skies they they were quite good at '140.74': language not not just at phrasing these '142.78': things but at getting the Congressional '146.41': Caucus the think tanks the radio host '149.44': all on the same page so that you just '15.48': Iraq just sectarian violence aimed at '151.6': heard these over and over and over again '153.04': and was there ever a clear definition of '156.0': enhanced interrogation as distinct from '158.77': torture or was the very point to blur '160.87': that line oh no at the point was '162.85': absolutely to blur the idea is if you '164.29': don't say what Rumsfeld called the '166.72': torture word somehow it's okay and the '170.47': idea the question is a whether it '171.76': qualifies as torture which is really a '174.07': linguistic question became for them of '178.12': policy and and and moral right and wrong '18.39': expressing differences it seems like '180.16': so do you see President Obama making a '182.38': conscious effort to replace key words '185.2': and phrases from the Bush administration '187.24': for example whatever it is we're '188.62': fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan is not '190.99': called the global war on terror anymore '192.88': is it no it's it's it's it's it's been '194.8': supposed to be branded has it been '198.22': rebranded well it hasn't been rebranded '20.67': only yesterday that the ownership '200.17': and in the Obama administration for the '203.65': most part apart from making some little '205.69': tweaks in language so the toxic assets '207.79': become legacy assets and so on has for '210.82': the most part stayed away from trying to '213.22': come up with these sweeping buzzwords '214.75': and catch phrases now you do have this '216.16': phrase new foundation which show Obama's '219.22': been working into every speech we '22.14': society was the buzz term being used to '220.66': originally mentioned in his inaugural '222.28': and it's clearly his play to get a new '225.61': deal Great Society what one of those but '228.28': to brand his domestic program something '230.2': that a lot of presidents have tried to '232.06': do and most have not succeeded remember '234.76': Bill Clinton came in talking about a new '236.709': covenant and he quickly dropped it he '239.019': had his new covenant Bush had his '24.57': encourage poor people to take subprime '241.12': ownership Society Nixon had the new '244.87': federalism Truman had his fair deal and '247.42': none of those really worked I don't '248.68': think it's a question of finding the '249.61': right language I think it's a question '250.93': of achieving as johnson did and his '253.92': roosevelt did a sweeping legislative '256.87': program that really changes the way '258.25': things are oh you mean the public '259.989': relations rhetoric matters less than the '26.789': mortgages rather than rent or that the '262.27': actual accomplishments i'm shocked it '264.25': indeed and and i think that's what the '266.53': laughs '266.889': few years show that all of the rhetoric '269.02': of the right on the one hand the '270.729': sloganeering of the Bush administration '271.99': on the other hand all of the full-out '276.099': culture war talk of the Republican '278.86': campaign this this last year Palin '28.949': push to weaken the Clean Air Act was '282.999': around with terrorists the pro-american '285.039': parts of this great country the the '287.08': chants of USA and so that all and the '289.449': jaws of a six-pack and and they just '295.029': didn't work and and in in that sense I '297.58': think when people sense a discrepancy '299.319': that's too great between words and '30.779': called the clear skies initiative do you '301.659': things the language does tear and open '305.259': rents that allow you to see the reality '306.639': behind it Geoffrey nunberg author of the '308.56': years of talking dangerously my guest on '310.629': WNYC the Berkeley linguist we're '313.029': certainly not hearing about the '314.229': ownership society anymore which was part '316.99': of the language used around the bush '318.31': plan to privatize Social Security but '320.5': also to move poor people from renting to '323.56': owning homes and some other things where '326.199': did that phrase come from you write '327.729': about it in the book ownership society '329.289': well in a way had to do with the '33.66': miss the language of the Bush '331.449': expansion of the word ownership itself '333.849': so you had corporations saying they '335.349': wanted employees to feel a sense of '336.789': ownership about their jobs which didn't '338.949': mean you get stock options it meant '34.739': administration '341.71': you're supposed to it's it's your ass on '343.689': the line so to speak if if something '346.389': goes wrong right and and my favorite '348.339': quote unquote along those lines was '35.61': now linguist Geoffrey nunberg says the '350.439': making us pay for our own health '352.18': insurance premiums as individuals '354.759': instead of having employer plans or '357.009': government plans that was called owning '359.289': our own health care rather than saddling '361.539': us with the bills or rather than putting '363.279': us on our own which which was about '365.56': really involved '37.829': language of the right has collapsed '39.45': though the Democrats have their own '41.219': linguistic challenges now that they are '43.11': in power you may know Geoffrey nunberg '44.55': from his language essays on fresh air or '46.98': in the New York Times or elsewhere now '49.2': some of them are collected in this '50.43': latest book called the years of speaking '52.739': dangerously some are political others '55.17': personal some pop cultural Jeffery '57.239': always great to have you on WNYC hello '59.1': hello and thank you for having me you '60.719': come right out and say the language of '62.85': the right has collapsed why do you put '65.64': it that way well because it has because '68.61': over the the last four years in '70.65': particular this language machine that '73.83': the write in general of the Bush '75.119': administration in particular had '76.86': assembled just began to unravel it began '79.619': to unravel when Bush said in 2006 we've '83.97': never been stay the course and even Fox '87.09': News felt obliged to run all the clips '89.28': of was saying stay the course stay the '9.32': well it seems like only yesterday that '90.93': course when Bush said just before the '93.75': 2008 election if they're asked if he had '96.869': any regrets said well mission '99.21': accomplished

/data/video_data.parquet/447/447259/nvZ4N2c8Dbw/360p_300.mp4

Geoffrey Nunberg: Sharp Tongue

Linguist and author Geoffrey Nunberg discusses his new book The Years of Talking Dangerously and the way in which the media, politicians, and all of us use words to not say what we really mean.

360

'100.17': I was trying to communicate something I '101.939': might have communicated it more artfully '103.92': with the way but which is true I mean he '105.869': might have said way to go guys and '107.82': saving himself a lot of trouble but '109.11': we're still here in the Vice President '11.73': we had a White House press office '110.85': Cheney on quote enhanced interrogation '113.67': techniques and whether they're torture '116.399': and whether they're needed but that '118.229': phrase itself was it invented by the '12.87': telling us there was no civil war in '120.899': Bush administration as best I can tell '122.43': it was invented a couple of years ago by '124.5': that by the Bush administration in an '125.7': oddly or well and crude Orwellian ISM '128.66': for an administration I mean that that '130.92': was pretty deft for the most part it '132.959': coming '133.36': with phrases that when they stand up '135.43': will stand down that sort of thing that '137.14': ownership society you mentioned clear '139.48': skies they they were quite good at '140.74': language not not just at phrasing these '142.78': things but at getting the Congressional '146.41': Caucus the think tanks the radio host '149.44': all on the same page so that you just '15.48': Iraq just sectarian violence aimed at '151.6': heard these over and over and over again '153.04': and was there ever a clear definition of '156.0': enhanced interrogation as distinct from '158.77': torture or was the very point to blur '160.87': that line oh no at the point was '162.85': absolutely to blur the idea is if you '164.29': don't say what Rumsfeld called the '166.72': torture word somehow it's okay and the '170.47': idea the question is a whether it '171.76': qualifies as torture which is really a '174.07': linguistic question became for them of '178.12': policy and and and moral right and wrong '18.39': expressing differences it seems like '180.16': so do you see President Obama making a '182.38': conscious effort to replace key words '185.2': and phrases from the Bush administration '187.24': for example whatever it is we're '188.62': fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan is not '190.99': called the global war on terror anymore '192.88': is it no it's it's it's it's it's been '194.8': supposed to be branded has it been '198.22': rebranded well it hasn't been rebranded '20.67': only yesterday that the ownership '200.17': and in the Obama administration for the '203.65': most part apart from making some little '205.69': tweaks in language so the toxic assets '207.79': become legacy assets and so on has for '210.82': the most part stayed away from trying to '213.22': come up with these sweeping buzzwords '214.75': and catch phrases now you do have this '216.16': phrase new foundation which show Obama's '219.22': been working into every speech we '22.14': society was the buzz term being used to '220.66': originally mentioned in his inaugural '222.28': and it's clearly his play to get a new '225.61': deal Great Society what one of those but '228.28': to brand his domestic program something '230.2': that a lot of presidents have tried to '232.06': do and most have not succeeded remember '234.76': Bill Clinton came in talking about a new '236.709': covenant and he quickly dropped it he '239.019': had his new covenant Bush had his '24.57': encourage poor people to take subprime '241.12': ownership Society Nixon had the new '244.87': federalism Truman had his fair deal and '247.42': none of those really worked I don't '248.68': think it's a question of finding the '249.61': right language I think it's a question '250.93': of achieving as johnson did and his '253.92': roosevelt did a sweeping legislative '256.87': program that really changes the way '258.25': things are oh you mean the public '259.989': relations rhetoric matters less than the '26.789': mortgages rather than rent or that the '262.27': actual accomplishments i'm shocked it '264.25': indeed and and i think that's what the '266.53': laughs '266.889': few years show that all of the rhetoric '269.02': of the right on the one hand the '270.729': sloganeering of the Bush administration '271.99': on the other hand all of the full-out '276.099': culture war talk of the Republican '278.86': campaign this this last year Palin '28.949': push to weaken the Clean Air Act was '282.999': around with terrorists the pro-american '285.039': parts of this great country the the '287.08': chants of USA and so that all and the '289.449': jaws of a six-pack and and they just '295.029': didn't work and and in in that sense I '297.58': think when people sense a discrepancy '299.319': that's too great between words and '30.779': called the clear skies initiative do you '301.659': things the language does tear and open '305.259': rents that allow you to see the reality '306.639': behind it Geoffrey nunberg author of the '308.56': years of talking dangerously my guest on '310.629': WNYC the Berkeley linguist we're '313.029': certainly not hearing about the '314.229': ownership society anymore which was part '316.99': of the language used around the bush '318.31': plan to privatize Social Security but '320.5': also to move poor people from renting to '323.56': owning homes and some other things where '326.199': did that phrase come from you write '327.729': about it in the book ownership society '329.289': well in a way had to do with the '33.66': miss the language of the Bush '331.449': expansion of the word ownership itself '333.849': so you had corporations saying they '335.349': wanted employees to feel a sense of '336.789': ownership about their jobs which didn't '338.949': mean you get stock options it meant '34.739': administration '341.71': you're supposed to it's it's your ass on '343.689': the line so to speak if if something '346.389': goes wrong right and and my favorite '348.339': quote unquote along those lines was '35.61': now linguist Geoffrey nunberg says the '350.439': making us pay for our own health '352.18': insurance premiums as individuals '354.759': instead of having employer plans or '357.009': government plans that was called owning '359.289': our own health care rather than saddling '361.539': us with the bills or rather than putting '363.279': us on our own which which was about '365.56': really involved '37.829': language of the right has collapsed '39.45': though the Democrats have their own '41.219': linguistic challenges now that they are '43.11': in power you may know Geoffrey nunberg '44.55': from his language essays on fresh air or '46.98': in the New York Times or elsewhere now '49.2': some of them are collected in this '50.43': latest book called the years of speaking '52.739': dangerously some are political others '55.17': personal some pop cultural Jeffery '57.239': always great to have you on WNYC hello '59.1': hello and thank you for having me you '60.719': come right out and say the language of '62.85': the right has collapsed why do you put '65.64': it that way well because it has because '68.61': over the the last four years in '70.65': particular this language machine that '73.83': the write in general of the Bush '75.119': administration in particular had '76.86': assembled just began to unravel it began '79.619': to unravel when Bush said in 2006 we've '83.97': never been stay the course and even Fox '87.09': News felt obliged to run all the clips '89.28': of was saying stay the course stay the '9.32': well it seems like only yesterday that '90.93': course when Bush said just before the '93.75': 2008 election if they're asked if he had '96.869': any regrets said well mission '99.21': accomplished

/data/video_data.parquet/447/447259/nvZ4N2c8Dbw/360p_360.mp4

Geoffrey Nunberg: Sharp Tongue

Linguist and author Geoffrey Nunberg discusses his new book The Years of Talking Dangerously and the way in which the media, politicians, and all of us use words to not say what we really mean.

60

'100.17': I was trying to communicate something I '101.939': might have communicated it more artfully '103.92': with the way but which is true I mean he '105.869': might have said way to go guys and '107.82': saving himself a lot of trouble but '109.11': we're still here in the Vice President '11.73': we had a White House press office '110.85': Cheney on quote enhanced interrogation '113.67': techniques and whether they're torture '116.399': and whether they're needed but that '118.229': phrase itself was it invented by the '12.87': telling us there was no civil war in '120.899': Bush administration as best I can tell '122.43': it was invented a couple of years ago by '124.5': that by the Bush administration in an '125.7': oddly or well and crude Orwellian ISM '128.66': for an administration I mean that that '130.92': was pretty deft for the most part it '132.959': coming '133.36': with phrases that when they stand up '135.43': will stand down that sort of thing that '137.14': ownership society you mentioned clear '139.48': skies they they were quite good at '140.74': language not not just at phrasing these '142.78': things but at getting the Congressional '146.41': Caucus the think tanks the radio host '149.44': all on the same page so that you just '15.48': Iraq just sectarian violence aimed at '151.6': heard these over and over and over again '153.04': and was there ever a clear definition of '156.0': enhanced interrogation as distinct from '158.77': torture or was the very point to blur '160.87': that line oh no at the point was '162.85': absolutely to blur the idea is if you '164.29': don't say what Rumsfeld called the '166.72': torture word somehow it's okay and the '170.47': idea the question is a whether it '171.76': qualifies as torture which is really a '174.07': linguistic question became for them of '178.12': policy and and and moral right and wrong '18.39': expressing differences it seems like '180.16': so do you see President Obama making a '182.38': conscious effort to replace key words '185.2': and phrases from the Bush administration '187.24': for example whatever it is we're '188.62': fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan is not '190.99': called the global war on terror anymore '192.88': is it no it's it's it's it's it's been '194.8': supposed to be branded has it been '198.22': rebranded well it hasn't been rebranded '20.67': only yesterday that the ownership '200.17': and in the Obama administration for the '203.65': most part apart from making some little '205.69': tweaks in language so the toxic assets '207.79': become legacy assets and so on has for '210.82': the most part stayed away from trying to '213.22': come up with these sweeping buzzwords '214.75': and catch phrases now you do have this '216.16': phrase new foundation which show Obama's '219.22': been working into every speech we '22.14': society was the buzz term being used to '220.66': originally mentioned in his inaugural '222.28': and it's clearly his play to get a new '225.61': deal Great Society what one of those but '228.28': to brand his domestic program something '230.2': that a lot of presidents have tried to '232.06': do and most have not succeeded remember '234.76': Bill Clinton came in talking about a new '236.709': covenant and he quickly dropped it he '239.019': had his new covenant Bush had his '24.57': encourage poor people to take subprime '241.12': ownership Society Nixon had the new '244.87': federalism Truman had his fair deal and '247.42': none of those really worked I don't '248.68': think it's a question of finding the '249.61': right language I think it's a question '250.93': of achieving as johnson did and his '253.92': roosevelt did a sweeping legislative '256.87': program that really changes the way '258.25': things are oh you mean the public '259.989': relations rhetoric matters less than the '26.789': mortgages rather than rent or that the '262.27': actual accomplishments i'm shocked it '264.25': indeed and and i think that's what the '266.53': laughs '266.889': few years show that all of the rhetoric '269.02': of the right on the one hand the '270.729': sloganeering of the Bush administration '271.99': on the other hand all of the full-out '276.099': culture war talk of the Republican '278.86': campaign this this last year Palin '28.949': push to weaken the Clean Air Act was '282.999': around with terrorists the pro-american '285.039': parts of this great country the the '287.08': chants of USA and so that all and the '289.449': jaws of a six-pack and and they just '295.029': didn't work and and in in that sense I '297.58': think when people sense a discrepancy '299.319': that's too great between words and '30.779': called the clear skies initiative do you '301.659': things the language does tear and open '305.259': rents that allow you to see the reality '306.639': behind it Geoffrey nunberg author of the '308.56': years of talking dangerously my guest on '310.629': WNYC the Berkeley linguist we're '313.029': certainly not hearing about the '314.229': ownership society anymore which was part '316.99': of the language used around the bush '318.31': plan to privatize Social Security but '320.5': also to move poor people from renting to '323.56': owning homes and some other things where '326.199': did that phrase come from you write '327.729': about it in the book ownership society '329.289': well in a way had to do with the '33.66': miss the language of the Bush '331.449': expansion of the word ownership itself '333.849': so you had corporations saying they '335.349': wanted employees to feel a sense of '336.789': ownership about their jobs which didn't '338.949': mean you get stock options it meant '34.739': administration '341.71': you're supposed to it's it's your ass on '343.689': the line so to speak if if something '346.389': goes wrong right and and my favorite '348.339': quote unquote along those lines was '35.61': now linguist Geoffrey nunberg says the '350.439': making us pay for our own health '352.18': insurance premiums as individuals '354.759': instead of having employer plans or '357.009': government plans that was called owning '359.289': our own health care rather than saddling '361.539': us with the bills or rather than putting '363.279': us on our own which which was about '365.56': really involved '37.829': language of the right has collapsed '39.45': though the Democrats have their own '41.219': linguistic challenges now that they are '43.11': in power you may know Geoffrey nunberg '44.55': from his language essays on fresh air or '46.98': in the New York Times or elsewhere now '49.2': some of them are collected in this '50.43': latest book called the years of speaking '52.739': dangerously some are political others '55.17': personal some pop cultural Jeffery '57.239': always great to have you on WNYC hello '59.1': hello and thank you for having me you '60.719': come right out and say the language of '62.85': the right has collapsed why do you put '65.64': it that way well because it has because '68.61': over the the last four years in '70.65': particular this language machine that '73.83': the write in general of the Bush '75.119': administration in particular had '76.86': assembled just began to unravel it began '79.619': to unravel when Bush said in 2006 we've '83.97': never been stay the course and even Fox '87.09': News felt obliged to run all the clips '89.28': of was saying stay the course stay the '9.32': well it seems like only yesterday that '90.93': course when Bush said just before the '93.75': 2008 election if they're asked if he had '96.869': any regrets said well mission '99.21': accomplished

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Geoffrey Nunberg: Sharp Tongue

Linguist and author Geoffrey Nunberg discusses his new book The Years of Talking Dangerously and the way in which the media, politicians, and all of us use words to not say what we really mean.

90

'100.17': I was trying to communicate something I '101.939': might have communicated it more artfully '103.92': with the way but which is true I mean he '105.869': might have said way to go guys and '107.82': saving himself a lot of trouble but '109.11': we're still here in the Vice President '11.73': we had a White House press office '110.85': Cheney on quote enhanced interrogation '113.67': techniques and whether they're torture '116.399': and whether they're needed but that '118.229': phrase itself was it invented by the '12.87': telling us there was no civil war in '120.899': Bush administration as best I can tell '122.43': it was invented a couple of years ago by '124.5': that by the Bush administration in an '125.7': oddly or well and crude Orwellian ISM '128.66': for an administration I mean that that '130.92': was pretty deft for the most part it '132.959': coming '133.36': with phrases that when they stand up '135.43': will stand down that sort of thing that '137.14': ownership society you mentioned clear '139.48': skies they they were quite good at '140.74': language not not just at phrasing these '142.78': things but at getting the Congressional '146.41': Caucus the think tanks the radio host '149.44': all on the same page so that you just '15.48': Iraq just sectarian violence aimed at '151.6': heard these over and over and over again '153.04': and was there ever a clear definition of '156.0': enhanced interrogation as distinct from '158.77': torture or was the very point to blur '160.87': that line oh no at the point was '162.85': absolutely to blur the idea is if you '164.29': don't say what Rumsfeld called the '166.72': torture word somehow it's okay and the '170.47': idea the question is a whether it '171.76': qualifies as torture which is really a '174.07': linguistic question became for them of '178.12': policy and and and moral right and wrong '18.39': expressing differences it seems like '180.16': so do you see President Obama making a '182.38': conscious effort to replace key words '185.2': and phrases from the Bush administration '187.24': for example whatever it is we're '188.62': fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan is not '190.99': called the global war on terror anymore '192.88': is it no it's it's it's it's it's been '194.8': supposed to be branded has it been '198.22': rebranded well it hasn't been rebranded '20.67': only yesterday that the ownership '200.17': and in the Obama administration for the '203.65': most part apart from making some little '205.69': tweaks in language so the toxic assets '207.79': become legacy assets and so on has for '210.82': the most part stayed away from trying to '213.22': come up with these sweeping buzzwords '214.75': and catch phrases now you do have this '216.16': phrase new foundation which show Obama's '219.22': been working into every speech we '22.14': society was the buzz term being used to '220.66': originally mentioned in his inaugural '222.28': and it's clearly his play to get a new '225.61': deal Great Society what one of those but '228.28': to brand his domestic program something '230.2': that a lot of presidents have tried to '232.06': do and most have not succeeded remember '234.76': Bill Clinton came in talking about a new '236.709': covenant and he quickly dropped it he '239.019': had his new covenant Bush had his '24.57': encourage poor people to take subprime '241.12': ownership Society Nixon had the new '244.87': federalism Truman had his fair deal and '247.42': none of those really worked I don't '248.68': think it's a question of finding the '249.61': right language I think it's a question '250.93': of achieving as johnson did and his '253.92': roosevelt did a sweeping legislative '256.87': program that really changes the way '258.25': things are oh you mean the public '259.989': relations rhetoric matters less than the '26.789': mortgages rather than rent or that the '262.27': actual accomplishments i'm shocked it '264.25': indeed and and i think that's what the '266.53': laughs '266.889': few years show that all of the rhetoric '269.02': of the right on the one hand the '270.729': sloganeering of the Bush administration '271.99': on the other hand all of the full-out '276.099': culture war talk of the Republican '278.86': campaign this this last year Palin '28.949': push to weaken the Clean Air Act was '282.999': around with terrorists the pro-american '285.039': parts of this great country the the '287.08': chants of USA and so that all and the '289.449': jaws of a six-pack and and they just '295.029': didn't work and and in in that sense I '297.58': think when people sense a discrepancy '299.319': that's too great between words and '30.779': called the clear skies initiative do you '301.659': things the language does tear and open '305.259': rents that allow you to see the reality '306.639': behind it Geoffrey nunberg author of the '308.56': years of talking dangerously my guest on '310.629': WNYC the Berkeley linguist we're '313.029': certainly not hearing about the '314.229': ownership society anymore which was part '316.99': of the language used around the bush '318.31': plan to privatize Social Security but '320.5': also to move poor people from renting to '323.56': owning homes and some other things where '326.199': did that phrase come from you write '327.729': about it in the book ownership society '329.289': well in a way had to do with the '33.66': miss the language of the Bush '331.449': expansion of the word ownership itself '333.849': so you had corporations saying they '335.349': wanted employees to feel a sense of '336.789': ownership about their jobs which didn't '338.949': mean you get stock options it meant '34.739': administration '341.71': you're supposed to it's it's your ass on '343.689': the line so to speak if if something '346.389': goes wrong right and and my favorite '348.339': quote unquote along those lines was '35.61': now linguist Geoffrey nunberg says the '350.439': making us pay for our own health '352.18': insurance premiums as individuals '354.759': instead of having employer plans or '357.009': government plans that was called owning '359.289': our own health care rather than saddling '361.539': us with the bills or rather than putting '363.279': us on our own which which was about '365.56': really involved '37.829': language of the right has collapsed '39.45': though the Democrats have their own '41.219': linguistic challenges now that they are '43.11': in power you may know Geoffrey nunberg '44.55': from his language essays on fresh air or '46.98': in the New York Times or elsewhere now '49.2': some of them are collected in this '50.43': latest book called the years of speaking '52.739': dangerously some are political others '55.17': personal some pop cultural Jeffery '57.239': always great to have you on WNYC hello '59.1': hello and thank you for having me you '60.719': come right out and say the language of '62.85': the right has collapsed why do you put '65.64': it that way well because it has because '68.61': over the the last four years in '70.65': particular this language machine that '73.83': the write in general of the Bush '75.119': administration in particular had '76.86': assembled just began to unravel it began '79.619': to unravel when Bush said in 2006 we've '83.97': never been stay the course and even Fox '87.09': News felt obliged to run all the clips '89.28': of was saying stay the course stay the '9.32': well it seems like only yesterday that '90.93': course when Bush said just before the '93.75': 2008 election if they're asked if he had '96.869': any regrets said well mission '99.21': accomplished

/data/video_data.parquet/447/447259/nvZ4N2c8Dbw/360p_90.mp4

Pam Karlan (2012) interview

On Aug. 22, 2012, the Robert H. Jackson Center hosted Prof. Pam Karlan. She was the annual Robert H. Jackson lecturer at Chautauqua Institution. The interview was conducted by Greg Peterson and covered her career, reflections on her mentor Justice Harry Blackmun and legacy of Robert H. Jackson. For further information, see www.roberthjackson.org.

1080

'0.299': thank you for coming by the way this is '10.889': we've ever had for a Robert Jackson '1003.58': I saw it actually posted in his chambers '1007.9': the day he died after his funeral we all '101.39': famous or now infamous memorandum from '1010.36': went back to the chambers to hang out '1011.74': and there was the bat which I think was '1014.05': several people asked for it but I think '1016.24': it was given to the Library of Congress '1017.62': and the other thing about baseball that '1019.45': I is he had been a friend of the '1021.49': Griffiths who owned the then the '1024.459': Minneapolis Millers later the twins and '1027.97': so we would talk about baseball a lot it '1030.16': at breakfast and one day in the '1036.31': afternoon he I was in the upstairs '1038.8': chambers and I got a phone call used to '104.579': justice to justice Jackson from justice '1040.12': come down the Justice has somebody he '1042.52': wants you to meet and this group called '1044.35': the email verbum society was having its '1046.51': reunion in Washington I guess there's a '1048.13': Cubs thing and so there were these three '1053.5': guys and like bad fitting sports coats '1055.36': in his office and he introduced them to '1058.0': me and two of them I don't remember the '1059.14': name is because I'm not a Cubs fan at '1061.24': all but the last one was Andy Pafko who '1063.52': had been a Dodger as well '1065.96': at a nice conversation when afternoon '1068.299': with Andy Pafko '107.909': Rehnquist as you went through that '1070.789': and the last baseball thing I'll tell '1072.289': you is when justice blackmun retired '1074.539': from the Supreme Court I was asked to do '1076.639': one of the tributes for him in the '1078.379': Harvard Law Review and one of the things '1082.549': I talked about in the in the tribute was '1089.33': this article that been written called '1091.519': your law baseball quiz I think I told '1093.2': you about this last night where they '1094.34': compare different justices to different '1097.96': famous baseball players and I said that '110.13': clipper book in you and you've read '1100.85': you know so I tell the story of you know '1102.47': Jackie Jenson is like Byron white '1104.509': because they were both better at '1105.499': football and then I say you know and '1108.59': they compared the guy to this compared '111.93': about the activities of Thurgood '1110.769': Felix Frankfurter do among other things '1112.909': Wayne Terwilliger and I and I and then '1115.46': the art of I just set up foot and I said '1116.99': who is Wayne Terwilliger and so and then '1121.279': ultimately I said that if I had to pick '1122.99': somebody for justice blackmun to be like '1124.94': I had thought originally about Bobby '1126.529': Brown because justice like they wanted '1128.6': to be a doctor just like Bobby Brown '113.909': Marshall and William Coleman and the '1130.129': became a doctor and that I thought of '1132.32': you know a couple of other people like '1134.299': that you know Charlie Gehringer because '1136.549': it was a little tiny you know little '1141.32': tiny second baseman and you know a great '1143.529': fielder but not not a big batter and '1146.72': ultimately I came out with Dave Winfield '1148.58': which people might not have guessed '1149.779': because both of them came from st. Paul '1151.759': and made something of themselves both of '1153.86': them played the game long after many of '1155.809': their contemporaries had retired and '1157.279': both of them owed their start to a '1159.44': convicted but later pardoned Watergate '1161.629': felon to a later I'm sorry to a later '1164.809': pardoned Watergate felon because '1168.1': Blackman got his seat on the Supreme '1169.82': Court from Nixon and '117.21': whole cadre of people who were working '1172.94': George Steinbrenner's the person who '1174.68': gave Dave Winfield his biggest contract '1177.25': and so when I know sir yes so I read '1179.72': this and I wouldn't you know and the '1181.34': next time I visited the Justice that '1182.75': Justice said oh I really liked your your '1185.54': tribute a lot but come with me and he '1187.4': led me down the hall into a storeroom he '119.79': on the case did that inspire you to the '1190.67': was bending down at the Thurgood '1191.81': Marshall Center and he pulled out a copy '1193.82': of the baseball encyclopedia and he said '1197.09': this is Wayne Terwilliger and took me to '12.63': lecture and certainly the largest to '1200.45': the page twig I'd never heard of him and '1204.98': I'm a baseball fan and I'd never heard '1206.92': okay yeah I think until a few years ago '1209.33': still in baseball as a coach didn't even '1212.99': talk about Roe versus Wade ooh yes '1214.58': yeah um so the first time you talked '1216.95': about Roe vs. Wade is when I went to '1218.51': interview with him he had a justice '1221.48': blackmun would have been a tax lawyer '1223.1': before he was then counsel at the Mayo '1224.99': Clinic and he had exactly the habits you '1227.63': would expect from somebody who'd been a '1228.86': very good tax it's like incredibly '123.99': extent that you could find that that's a '1230.48': meticulous and precise and so when he '1232.34': interviewed people he had this long list '1234.32': of questions written out and he asked '1236.63': you the questions they wrote down the '1237.74': answers in pencil and towards the end of '1240.47': the interview he said now I want to ask '1242.54': you a question and I want you to think '1244.25': about this very carefully '1249.509': now I've written an opinion that's a '1252.239': little bit controversial and some people '1254.759': find that the kind of opinion that they '1257.549': have trouble with and you need to think '126.03': lineage that you could have '1260.549': about whether you would be comfortable '1261.809': working for me '1263.009': given the opinion and I'm sort of '1264.749': racking my brain to think like what '1266.249': opinion is he talking about '1268.799': and he said you may have heard of it and '127.74': yeah well I you know I decided I wanted '1271.049': now I'm thinking okay what is he gonna '1272.489': say '1272.909': he said it's called Roe against Wade and '1275.19': you know I'm a little bit of a kind of '1277.799': smartass sometimes and all I could think '1279.539': is just don't say oh my god you're that '1281.399': Harry Blackmun you're kidding but he '1284.519': actually had had a clerk apparently '1286.409': several years before who had in the '1288.119': middle of the year had a religious '1290.489': revelation that Roe was wrong and so '1295.139': that was the first time that I had a '1296.58': conversation then we had two abortion '1299.1': cases my year at the Supreme Court and '130.24': to work for the n-double-a-cp Legal '1300.96': it's actually the kind of high watermark '1303.359': of abortion rights at the Supreme Court '1305.07': was one of those cases the kids called '1306.45': Thornburg against American College of '1308.039': Obstetricians and Gynaecologists which '131.89': Defense Fund which is the organization '1310.649': the Justice wrote and so we had a fair '1313.859': number of conversations about abortion '1316.259': and he was convinced that you know that '1318.659': was also the first time that there was '1319.98': five to four who done a poll the kind of '1322.85': central premise of row because the Chief '1325.289': Justice which side so he talked about a '1327.419': lot then and then as you probably know '133.57': that bill Coleman and Charlie black and '1330.389': he used to teach at the Aspen Institute '1332.159': in the summer a justice and society '1335.039': class and he spent a day of that talking '1337.889': about the decision process leading up to '1339.929': Roe and I was there '1342.74': what do you say well he thought I mean '1345.87': it's interesting I think although he '1348.12': wouldn't I think he wouldn't put it '1350.309': quite this way his thoughts about ro '1352.02': evolved somewhat over time this when he '1355.29': started on the case his major you know '1358.95': the major focus for him was the practice '136.87': Lou and Thurgood Marshall and '1362.34': of medicine because he had come out of '1363.99': being counsel at the Mayo Clinic and he '1365.91': took very seriously they did it this was '1367.83': a medical procedure and therefore it was '1370.08': up to women in consultation with their '1372.78': doctors to make this decision in the way '1375.179': that would be true of all other medical '1376.919': procedures I think over time he came to '1379.049': see ro as equally about women's autonomy '138.64': Jack Greenberg were all part of and in '1383.76': that it wasn't mostly about medical '1386.07': autonomy it was about women's autonomy '1388.62': by the time I got there I think he was '1390.299': thinking about it and much those two '1392.79': things to have more much more in '1394.41': equipoise in being important to him but '1397.41': he just thought it was not the kind of '1398.91': decision that should be made '14.25': stay around well excellent yeah your '1400.4': categorically by the state as opposed to '1402.75': by individuals given the circumstances '1405.33': they found themselves in a gym ropes '1408.5': publicly switched no I think I think she '141.4': fact that's what I did do when I was in '1413.07': had said by then that she regretted '1414.84': having had the abortion but it wasn't '1416.85': until maybe about five years ago there '1419.22': so that she filed a sort of coram nobis '1420.75': training in Roe overturned if you had '1427.53': this pause and Sarah Gregg I've been in '143.11': law school I worked there for each of '1430.59': violence constitutional law business for '1432.44': since eighties and you had to pick kind '1436.5': of the five seminal cases to teach a '1439.98': master's class '144.73': the summers I was in law school '1444.52': five cases since the 1980s startup '1448.0': America okay '1449.26': doing a little baseline yeah was your '1451.35': people so if I had to pick the cases '1455.71': since I started since I started well '146.2': and then I was a staff lawyer there for '1462.4': you'd have to teach District of Columbia '1467.71': against Heller the Second Amendment case '1470.08': in part because it's just it's like a '1472.42': kind of kaleidoscope of all the '1474.28': different methods of constitutional '1475.96': interpretation it's got a little bit of '1477.46': originalism a little bit of textualism '1479.32': some pragmatic consequentialism a little '148.03': several years before I went into '1482.41': bit of the structure a constitutional '1484.179': structural reasoning and so although I '1486.49': know I'm not sure that the opinion has '1488.2': big legs that is I'm not sure that '149.44': teaching and I still continued to work '1490.03': there's going to be a lot of laws struck '1491.559': down that would have otherwise been '1492.73': upheld or like it's it's a it's a real '1496.45': window into contemporary constitutional '1499.12': law so I definitely teach that I think I '1503.53': would teach Lawrence against Texas '1506.62': because for substantive due process '1508.929': cases it's one of the most interesting '151.36': with them on cases so I'd like to think '1512.2': ones and you can see echoes of all of '1516.28': the sort of different prior cases in it '1519.87': I would definitely teach the Affordable '1525.49': Care Act case because it reviews huge '1529.48': amounts of constitutional law up till '1531.309': then and it sets down some markers for '1534.67': the future '1539.2': I'd have to teach one of the race cases '154.45': of myself as being part of the extended '1542.27': on the question of which race case to '1544.34': teach you know on the one hand Gruder is '1548.09': very important but I think maybe parents '1550.309': involved against Seattle School District '1552.86': number one is more significant because '1555.64': there's more of a discussion of what the '1557.809': meaning of brown is for modern times and '156.94': Legal Defense Fund family did you ever '1562.159': it's more of a contemporary court and '1567.01': then I mean there are a lot of different '1570.409': candidates because it depends on what '1572.48': you're trying to do in the master class '1573.799': that is if you're trying to say which '1575.09': cases have had the most impact on '1577.99': everyday people's lives that's going to '1580.279': be a different question than if you're '1581.75': sort of saying which cases give you the '1583.669': greatest insight into kind of how the '1587.39': justices think about things '159.7': catch up with any of those oh oh yes '1592.56': today if the presentation you gave '1595.58': wonderful wonderful conversation with '1603.56': Jackson and currency current issues '1609.48': which is of course the Jackson mission '1613.05': here is to create the relevancy of '1614.73': justice Jackson today and you did a '1617.82': phenomenal job of doing just that '1620.81': well they didn't mention one of the ones '1623.19': where he's been most influential because '1624.54': it was a lay audience which is the steel '1627.57': seizure drill the kind of three-part '1630.42': framework for determining the '1632.7': relationship between the executive power '1634.59': and legislative power and '1637.55': constitutionality but I thought to try '1640.47': and do that with a lay audience would be '1642.27': almost impossible two years ago John '1645.24': created an event at Albany Law School '1647.73': and Phil Neil said if there's anything '165.64': absolutely so I knew Jack greenberg '1655.08': one thing it probably needs to be done '1656.49': in law school so we got to teach Jackson '1659.13': and specifically his ability to write '1661.5': this style and also taking it to one '1664.35': step further which is what you did today '1666.74': is it realistic well I mean I could see '167.92': quite well I knew bill Coleman who was '1672.21': teaching a seminar it would be a great '1674.61': seminar to teach one justice through a '1678.23': range of cases I mean I've often so I '1682.23': have a friend who's also a law professor '1683.88': who once suggested you should teach a '1685.23': course called some like 342 us and the '1688.32': case book for the course would simply be '1689.85': that volume of us reports because I find '1692.76': that you can often see really '1694.98': interesting relationships between cases '1697.35': that don't look like they're about the '1699.27': same thing but that are decided around '170.17': chairman of the board of the Legal '1702.18': the same time so I think it'd be '1703.65': wonderful to have a course that focused '1705.72': on a single justice I mean you'd want it '1707.94': obviously to be an advanced con law '1709.74': class or an advanced law class more '171.52': Defense Fund by the time I was a lawyer '1712.2': general '1712.68': so that it might also involve statutory '1714.87': interpretation as well as constitutional '1716.55': interpretation but I think the the '1720.21': chance to read the unaccepted decisions '1723.09': of in particular justice you actually '1724.86': get a sense of what a an opinion looks '1726.75': like as opposed to what's in the case '1728.64': book which is a little bit of fact and '173.98': there quite well I met Thurgood Marshall '1730.62': then boom into the money language yeah '1733.95': it'd be great thing to do you can't '1738.39': there's so much so far because you look '1742.38': in the crystal ball for the next five '1743.7': years the pen Carlin is there books you '1747.18': want to write are their positions you'd '1749.52': like to get is there the ambitions of '1753.27': panco oh I well one of my ambitions is '1756.45': to be a better teacher you know I love '1759.9': teaching I love with the clinical '176.71': when I was clerking at the Supreme Court '1761.88': teaching and the regular teaching a '1763.47': little bit of it is also you know after '1766.29': you've done any particular thing for a '1768.09': while you're always looking for a little '1769.29': something new to do so for a while I was '1773.07': kind of some training almost entirely on '1774.39': election law stuff and now for the last '1776.64': six or seven years my primary focus has '1779.13': been this clinic about litigates cases '1780.9': at the Supreme Court so I was thinking '1782.85': like maybe it's around time to figure '1785.25': out what the next thing is I don't have '1787.62': you know ambitions to change my life '1789.9': permanently inside in some way '179.59': I knew Constance Baker motley from when '1792.85': I'd like to spend some time working at '1795.22': the Department of Justice I think you '1797.14': know the right job came along at the '1798.61': right time it's always one of these '18.9': first time to Chautauqua what's your '1800.2': questions of timing and job and like I '1802.03': mean I was offered the job that I would '1804.1': now like to have I was offered in the '1806.89': Clinton administration but it was the '1808.63': wrong time and I was changing schools at '1811.84': that point and I'm single you know I '1815.11': didn't want to take two years it's kind '1817.87': of a two-year detour but as you get '182.32': I was working at the district court in '1820.78': older it seems less of a detour and more '1822.52': of an opportunity just to serve and then '1824.62': go back to being just a country law '1828.46': professor '183.91': New York she was the chief judge when I '1831.01': okay so President Obama gets reelected '1835.83': Ruth Bader Ginsburg resides where the '1840.929': Kennedys well to figure out who the top '1846.37': three candidates are you would need to '1847.78': know what year she resigns in and what '1849.73': the Senate looks like because if the '185.29': was clerking on that Court and Bob '1852.429': Democrats have control of the Senate '1854.08': you'll see a different nominee than if '1856.48': the Republicans have control of the '1858.22': Senate some of it depends on you know '1864.07': people people can kind of shoot out of '1866.11': nowhere in various ways you know Elena '1870.88': Kagan was the first justice in probably '1874.95': what twenty years to be since Justice '1879.52': Rehnquist was the and justice Powell was '188.11': Carter I knew just from you know hanging '1881.5': the first justice to go on the Supreme '1883.0': Court not coming out of an appellate '1885.58': court I mean justice O'Connor was a '1887.41': state court and to be really accurate '1890.83': justice Souter was mostly a state court '1892.809': judge he had only been on the first '1896.23': circuit for less than a year but that's '1898.12': a different kind of pick and so be '1900.22': interesting to see whether the president '1901.72': decides to think about somebody's held '1904.059': elective office I mean that was one of '1905.65': the points I was making in my lecture '1907.99': today '1908.95': institution is that we don't have any '1912.59': balance Precourt with real nitty gritty '1916.6': running for office experience so I could '1919.789': see something like Jennifer Granholm or '192.1': around with civil rights lawyers so I '1923.169': lisa madigan who's Attorney General of '1926.12': Illinois or camel Harris is Attorney '1929.809': General of California you know the '193.99': think of all of the people who were '1934.22': president hasn't put a lot of women on '1937.64': the federal courts of appeals yet so if '1940.58': that's where you're looking you know '1942.52': it's not clear that there's a deep bench '1945.529': of Democrats there if it's a Republican '1949.399': kind if it's a Republican Senate he's '1951.23': going to have to move considerably '1953.36': towards the middle it's pretty hard to '1956.57': know Mitt Romney Jordan is nice up '196.24': still alive who had argued in brown by '1964.97': that's that's I was a stock hold of '1969.289': American Motors Corporation just once '1970.97': you know that South Fargo and Detroit '1973.88': Tigers friends put that on respected '1976.85': Mitt Romney was fully Republican and '1979.58': he's got the choice there two or three '1982.57': candidates that jump out to use logical '1985.61': yeah so I I would think for him the kind '1989.27': of obvious choices would be Brett '199.48': the time I was an adult I've met I get I '1991.97': Kavanaugh who's on the DC circuit very '1994.159': young very conservative Jeff Sutton from '1996.62': the sixth circuit young and conservative '1999.169': ents smart although Jeff probably didn't '2.04': Gregor you're us your startup has been '20.34': impressions of all this well I've been '2001.27': do himself a big favor when he upheld '2004.75': the Affordable Care Act and then I would '2009.34': think Paul Clemente who's the Solicitor '201.58': managed to meet them all I mean all of '2011.26': General would be '2013.419': in the Bush administration be a kind of '2015.399': obvious candidate those straight me as '2018.999': the people most likely in a Romney '2021.969': administration I'm smiling because dolly '2024.309': lives would answered the same question '2026.979': in the same way well '203.17': the people argued on the right side yeah '2030.659': paranoid paranoid liberal she had a '2033.009': couple of a couple of mail names to the '2035.229': democratic posted oh yeah I mean III I '2037.779': convinced I mean '2039.249': Judge garland would be you know if it's '204.76': did you find that with that did you find '2041.559': in the next year or two '2042.879': who's on the DC Circuit would be a kind '2045.669': of obvious candidate you know now that '2050.649': Paul Watford has gotten onto the ninth '2053.649': circuit '2054.429': he might be an extremely attractive '2056.71': candidate most important question she's '2063.579': baseball became its antitrust exemption '2066.149': well you know I'm a big bill James fan '2068.679': and Bill James has a discussion of this '2070.839': where he says that if you got rid of the '2072.519': antitrust exemption what you might start '2074.74': to see is a kind of proliferation of a '2077.829': third or fourth majorly don't was coming '2081.069': out of minor league teams I'm not sure '2086.589': what function the antitrust exemption '2089.609': really performs today given that there's '2092.139': now an agreement between the Players '2094.48': Association and the teams right you know '2098.47': and and a huge percentage ever since '210.61': that you went to law school and were '2101.349': free agency a huge percentage of the '2104.769': revenue has moved over to the players '2106.48': I'm not sure that the existing players '2108.43': would favor getting rid of me and I '2109.99': trust exemption such an anachronism yeah '2113.98': yeah but hard to see that it's actually '2116.92': having much effect on on the game itself '2119.4': and the real question is how you '2121.93': maintain competitive balance if you if '2124.569': you want to maintain the sport the real '2126.039': question is how to maintain competitive '2127.93': balance and without the antitrust '2129.22': exemption '213.37': there a lot of your classmates who found '2130.33': it might be harder easier Supreme Court '2133.72': Historical Society is celebrating the '2135.73': 40th anniversary of that decision and '2137.7': they have working with two podium '2144.82': individuals and a judge to sort of '2147.28': reenact the case and that simply take it '2149.5': through everything for me there I think '2152.35': folks do it all as far as any guidance '2154.15': no no I know flood against tuna was way '2157.21': before my time '2157.96': yeah but thank you I know I know but '216.67': that social part of the practice of law '2161.5': every time I say something critical '2163.75': about the Chief Justice and being an '2165.28': umpire diminish my chances of being '2168.43': invited to the flood against Hugh '2170.11': celebration well tell me about that well '2177.79': you wrote that did you get feedback did '2179.41': you like no not well the Chief Justice '2182.2': doesn't blow back there did somebody I '2184.39': mean if there's no no I mean I'd if '2188.02': there I was at an event where I talked '219.81': important well I think you know I have a '2190.66': about this and this may be kind of music '2196.03': so has an event where I talked about '2197.26': this a little bit of know you know but '2199.0': Chief Justice and the umpire analogy '22.41': hearing about Chautauqua for years when '2201.43': like and efforts Justice Thomas was had '2204.22': been there and he came up to me and said '2206.5': hey give you a little bicep a nice oh '2208.42': yeah sure mr. justice he said don't hold '2210.22': back '2210.49': tell us what you really think have you '2212.56': got a stop being that you've got to stop '2214.09': being so reticent so no you know the '2218.98': Chief Justice isn't just as a big boy '2220.96': yeah '2223.22': by the way Jen talked about Thursday '2226.01': I've been in social situations where '2227.48': he's been there in by far and away when '2229.16': all the justices are there and it '223.36': lot of friends from Moscow who have done '2230.78': Supreme Court Oracle society man well '2232.46': he's very outgoing you can get access '2234.619': immediate access to everybody but him '2236.27': because time it's only because you've '2238.25': got 40 50 people hanging on I mean it's '2240.74': just doctors you can't get them no he's '2243.14': got more social skills in one-on-one '2245.54': than the average surgeries are just '2247.13': essentially he slapped more people on '2249.829': the back down and all the reason of the '225.13': public interest practice or either for '2254.42': current justices and you've written '2257.69': about them what's what's your sense of '2264.73': Roberts decision you know how do you '2268.19': read that in the healthcare act I don't '227.68': private groups like the Legal Defense '2272.39': wanna say Obamacare because you don't '2273.5': want me to say about that well wrong '2278.06': news head I mean I don't want to crawl '2280.91': into his head I I was not surprised at '2284.27': all by most of what he wrote that is I '2286.28': was not surprised that he upheld it on '2287.839': taxing power grounds and I was not '229.45': Fund or for the government so yeah I '2291.89': surprised that he thought there was a '2294.68': spending Clause problem with Medicaid '2296.96': because those seem to me to be pretty '2299.93': predictable what did surprise me is how '2302.3': much he went out of his way to decide '2305.21': the Commerce Clause issue when it wasn't '2306.98': necessary to the bottom line because as '2308.9': you know he spent a lot of time talking '2310.849': about how we should did not decide the '2313.52': things we don't need to decide and then '2315.829': in this case he went out of his way to '2317.329': do it and he's done that before that is '2320.27': his opinion for the court in the new '2323.51': Mudd no case which is a case about '2325.9': constitutionality of section 5 of the '2327.61': Voting Rights Act the court ultimately '2329.08': decided it on very narrow statutory '233.47': think a fair number of the people I knew '2331.54': grounds but along the way he said a lot '2334.03': of nasty things about the Voting Rights '2335.5': Act um you know he was a clerk for '2341.5': Justice Rehnquist and observed Justice '2343.99': Rehnquist's Supreme Court career he is a '2346.72': huge fan of Chief Justice John Marshall '2349.72': and has thought a lot about John '235.81': in law school were very committed to '2351.34': Marshalls career and both of those men '2353.83': both Marshall and Rehnquist were '2357.19': extremely strategic and kept their eye '2360.91': on the long view and that's true for the '2364.93': Chief Justice as well '2365.92': the man is 57 years old he does not need '2369.67': to take all the cards off the table in '237.25': doing civil rights work and have done it '2371.62': one hand and I think his decision his '2376.45': opinion in the affordable care act case '2379.33': was an extremely strategic decision so '2384.01': that somebody and all sides could have '2386.32': think once they read it they read it '2389.25': fine glass they can get something out of '2392.05': that well he it's designed to make him '2394.99': appear statesman like right which is he '2399.55': sort of says look you there's this '24.029': I was growing up because my grandmother '240.04': in one form or another '2401.74': passage towards the beginning of his '2403.72': opinion where he says it's not our job '2405.73': to save the people from the consequences '2408.07': of their political decisions our job is '241.27': their careers constitutional law of all '2410.08': to apply the law well what is that '2412.42': supposed to mean '2413.35': and not our job to save the people from '2415.45': their consequences their political '2416.65': decisions in other words saying if you '2418.21': pass a stupid statute like this don't '2419.98': expect us to fix it so I think it was '2424.48': designed to make him appear '2428.01': non-political right he's he's turning '2432.19': his back on the Tea Party agenda '2434.289': case while also allowing him to say a '2437.739': bunch of nasty things about the kind of '2442.479': liberal welfare state and I think he '2446.819': gained a fair amount of capital from the '2449.38': decision there that will stand him in '245.74': that was was at the area which obviously '2451.329': good stead when he spends it on issues '2453.039': he cares more about I don't think the '2454.689': Commerce Clause is the biggest issue for '2457.059': the chief justice that he cares about in '2458.829': constitutional law but certainly don't '2461.529': think the taxing powers Robert Jackson '2465.279': Center you're here today the thrilled '2467.199': you are here today and we are here to '2469.749': advance the legacy of Justice Robert '2472.029': Jackson I had Michael Berenbaum whom you '2474.429': met sitting at seat just yesterday '2476.559': asking him you know if he had some '2478.599': advice for us for only 11 years old or '248.85': established a reputation well the kind '2481.119': work-in-progress as to areas of which to '2484.209': find ourselves and if you had to give us '2487.509': some guidance panel well if you think '2490.9': about justice Jackson right what are the '2492.999': kind of things he's most known for the '2496.539': Nuremberg trials which obviously have '2499.239': continued bearing on the world today '25.56': and her first cousin came every summer '2502.839': because of '2505.44': the rise of international war crimes '2508.98': tribunals and Human Rights Tribunal '2511.17': sunlight I mean obviously that's one '2513.78': area where you know he serves as a kind '2516.869': of focal point for the United States on '2518.819': that and then the other thing I think is '252.85': of irony about that is when I got to law '2523.05': legal writing to go back to the point '2526.2': you were making about Phil Neal earlier '2527.819': that justice Jackson was such a clear '2531.0': writer and thinker I think it'd just be '2534.42': really useful to think about how do you '2538.55': perpetuate that legacy I mean you know '2542.46': you can read a Robert Jackson opinion '2544.319': today and it speaks to you whereas you '2547.5': know you read some of the opinions from '2548.97': the if you know from the Warren burger '255.31': school my first semester in law school I '2554.42': Rehnquist and Roberts courts and they're '2557.88': just impenetrable '2561.35': or they're impenetrable sort of masses '2565.49': of soupy mass with a couple of quotable '2568.25': lines thrown and the thing that's '257.26': was assigned to constitutional law with '2570.32': interesting you know and made it a '2572.06': little hard when I was preparing my talk '2573.92': for today for the Jackson centers '2575.18': sometimes the best Jackson quotations '2577.55': are two or three paragraphs long because '2581.09': he's setting up an argument and then '2583.66': explaining the argument as he goes '2585.71': through it '2586.22': I mean he's not he isn't even though '2587.96': he's got some of the greatest one-liners '2589.64': in Supreme Court history that's not '259.72': Robert Bork so I'm not sure that what I '2591.47': actually what makes him the greatest '2593.0': writer in some ways and so getting '2595.49': people to focus more on legal writing '2597.94': would you do that boy you know that's an '2601.73': interesting question I mean I think it'd '2606.77': be great to have to have you know have '2610.49': something that gives people a sense of '2612.11': how good his writing was you know some '2617.39': of it depends on which audiences you're '2618.86': aiming at I mean I think having a legal '2621.71': writing thing where you bring in judges '2623.48': and talk to them about legal write it I '2625.61': mean especially like state Supreme Court '2627.74': justice is often don't get much training '263.65': learned in first-year constitutional law '2630.5': and how to write an opinion or how to '2631.88': think about it '2637.569': what hurry black would mean to pimp oh '2641.259': he was he was everything he was just '2644.539': such a great boss and he and he was so '2648.47': meticulous I mean one of the things that '2650.269': he really taught me was attention to '2652.549': detail because he was very much a detail '2654.799': man and just an extremely brave man I '2658.67': mean the year before I clerked for the '266.49': stuck I I knew I disagreed with him and '2660.65': summer that I clerk from your that that '2663.529': previous spring you know when he came '2665.45': back to start eating breakfast with us '2667.94': we had a US Marshal and a Supreme Court '2669.71': police officer with us every morning at '2672.38': breakfast and the reason for that is '2673.64': that he had been shot out the year '2675.769': before he got up to go to the kitchen '2678.74': and a bullet came through the window and '2680.66': landed in the chair it did sitting in '2682.97': mmm one of the things he then ended up '2685.039': with it was a huge kerfuffle with his '2687.829': insurance company because there was a '2689.329': pair of upholstered chairs and the FBI '2692.21': came and like cut out a huge chunk of '2694.609': the chair that the bullet had gone into '2696.289': and he wanted to have both the chairs '2697.97': recovered and the insurance company said '2699.74': well there's nothing wrong with the '270.85': I didn't really know why I disagreed '2700.7': other chair so they've been over the '2703.339': back and forth over the chairs but you '2706.339': know he he was very principled he stuck '2709.099': to his principles and he was '2712.869': unbelievably hard-working I mean however '2715.13': hard I work I never work as hard as he '2717.38': worked '2719.52': you're the eighth speaker in Robert H '272.92': with him because I think for me the '2721.95': ejection lectureship and you've raised '2724.65': the bar very very high today '2728.16': whoo so how lucky that you're doing this '2730.26': that Mambo thing and everybody can get '2732.6': under it more easily now well that's who '2735.69': would you recommend to Jen and I next '2738.6': year '2738.99': oh so thinking about like we've had '274.87': difficulty in the way he taught us he '2743.49': solicitor jabber solicit think about '2745.74': like who is it that I love to listen to '2748.53': when they talk about law that you '2752.04': haven't had because you've had Paul '2753.78': Clemente company yeah and you've had '2755.82': Dahlia who I love listening to you know '276.46': was very fast very quick very witty and '2765.6': Bill Marshall is a really interesting '2767.66': guy - I find him just really interesting '2772.62': to listen to '2780.41': in terms of in terms of '2783.82': you know one person who'd be interesting '2785.89': to have because he's now off the bench '2787.66': and he's talking a lot more frankly '2790.21': about a lot of stuff is Vaughn Walker '2791.5': who was a federal district judge in '2793.51': California he's a really interesting '2795.43': speaker and obviously decide a huge '2797.62': number of important cases including the '2799.36': California marriage case I would think '28.92': and so I was excited to get a chance to '280.9': you're a first-year law student and so '2802.12': he'd be super interesting '2808.41': just kind of thinking '2816.84': you know my colleague Michael McConnell '2818.61': is a super interesting speaker on '282.58': even if you know you disagree with him '2821.13': virtually everything '2826.18': one person you know because I think you '2830.23': know who might be really interesting is '2831.46': sherrilyn Ifill he's a professor at the '2833.499': University of Maryland who has is '2837.49': writing right now about judicial '2839.38': confirmation hmm processes and she's an '284.05': it's hard to formulate what your '2843.069': unbelievably great and dynamic speaker '2846.42': so she might be a good person '2851.02': I should show you the clip of Dalia '2852.76': talking about you I love doll yeah I '2856.0': love dolly she's so into she wrote she '2859.48': wrote a piece this past year that was my '286.06': disagreements are and I think I didn't '2861.369': favorite piece of all time about '2863.17': corporate personhood it was about this '2865.27': little nothing burg case called that I '2867.28': think was FCC against AT&T it was a case '2869.68': about an exemption under the Freedom of '2872.829': Information Act for things that would '2876.849': interfere with the personal privacy of '2879.46': an individual and AT&T said well we '288.61': teach constitutional law until I've been '2882.79': should be able to protect ourselves here '2884.47': and that Court ultimately helped that '2887.2': they shouldn't and that Chief Justice '2888.579': makes some jokes about AT&T and not '2891.19': taking anything personally in this '2892.54': opinion but she wrote a description of '2894.7': the oral argument the case that was '2895.93': written completely as if 18t were a '2898.21': person and it's just it's just marvelous '290.38': teaching for quite some time in part '2901.98': question that is often asked oh no you '2904.809': know me you should definitely also think '2906.25': about his Walter Dellinger who is a '2908.17': great speaker and it was not on the '2912.22': court during the Robert Jackson use but '2913.96': was a Hugo black Clarke in the 1960s '2919.42': question that gets off in a spiral a '292.6': because I didn't want to have my '2921.76': radio guy is if you've had a chance to '2924.97': have dinner '2927.19': '- John Gemini anybody in history you can' '2933.01': choose three guests who did related '2937.24': somebody you're fine '2938.47': just extremely fascinating - really well '2942.24': that's it you know that's such a hard '2944.44': question cuz okay you want to have '2948.7': dinner with us somebody who will '2949.57': actually talk to you about that stuff as '295.63': students experience constitutional line '2951.79': opposed to somebody who won't talk about '2955.69': right so you might be really interested '2957.82': in knowing what somebody thinks but if '2959.98': they're very guarded then the dinner '2961.99': would be kind of painful so no no I know '2964.69': but I'm a law professor so I would '2966.82': really love to have dinner with Franklin '2969.04': Roosevelt I would really love to have '297.61': the way I had experienced it as the '2971.95': dinner with Franklin Roosevelt's and '2975.58': although I think I would have to like be '2978.16': extremely careful and sit at the other '2980.5': end of the table I'd actually love to '2982.15': have dinner with Lyndon Johnson as just '2984.64': reading the last of the following the '2986.83': Latin most recent in the bottoms of the '2988.0': Kara biography I'm just fascinated by '299.56': professor having a very strong point of '2990.94': him I just you know I'd love to and the '2997.12': other person I would love to have dinner '2998.74': with because I just love to know more '3001.11': about what made her who she was is '3003.42': Fannie Lou Hamer hmm I mean you know '3007.32': where did you get the kind of courage to '301.27': view that kind of overwhelmed whatever '3011.49': stick with it like '3016.35': this is an aside I recently interviewed '3018.9': Andrew Young and he talked they gave him '3022.14': a flash cards all the people who civil '3024.63': rights movement it was I had 20 minute '3027.27': stop that was all I had '3028.35': and I gave it to him as a baseball cards '3030.21': yeah just tell me who's left throws even '3033.21': further like oh yeah this is great '304.24': values you came into law school with so '3045.78': you are terrific and unfortunately '3051.32': looking forward to it I'm looking '3053.64': forward to what's the line about you '3055.71': know you can summarize every Jewish '3057.15': holiday in nine words they tried to kill '3059.1': us they didn't let see Cindy just texted '306.43': those tried to be very careful that I '3065.04': she's going to the restaurant '3066.63': I know we have there was she's tagging '3068.04': on two verses you got the word out right '3069.6': so was one of the partner we're gonna '3077.07': turn fishermen six okay perfect '308.14': teach my conservative students how to be '31.859': come up and when I arrived I was just '311.44': the best constitutional law lawyers they '313.24': can be as well as teaching students '315.28': whose views on the issues coincide more '3164.359': you '317.86': with mine of course finding yourself '3185.92': you '3209.74': you '323.71': from the United States Supreme Court day '326.44': one when you walked in there and well '3275.81': you '333.25': this is gonna sound odd but I actually '337.15': felt more comfortable arguing in the US '34.02': struck by how incredibly gorgeous '340.84': Supreme Court then I felt arguing in '342.88': several of the courts of appeals where '344.95': I've argued in part because I clerked at '3455.96': you '346.75': the court and so the building was '348.82': familiar to me the personnel on the '350.62': court were familiar to me you don't have '352.63': the problem when you go to the Supreme '354.01': Court that you can handle on courts of '355.36': appeals which is you don't know who your '356.71': panel is until you get there so you've '359.53': thought about you've briefed the case '36.8': Chautauqua is a combination of just '361.419': for the people you're actually gonna '362.47': argue in front of the thing that's '364.21': amazing about the argument is how fast '366.37': it goes '367.6': mean a my first argument I only had 10 '3696.23': you '370.99': minutes because I was splitting time '372.4': with the Solicitor General and I feel '375.82': like I didn't take a breath the whole '377.29': time I was up there it just pushed by me '381.0': but there's something totally '383.17': exhilarating I sometimes say to my '385.72': students that arguing in front of the '387.79': Supreme Court is the most fun you can '389.26': have in 30 minutes in public wearing '39.45': physical gorgeousness and total charm '391.54': your clothes standing up being all by '393.37': yourself doing nothing but talking and I '396.37': I continue to feel that although I have '398.89': to say that the current court is so much '402.4': more conservative than both the court I '404.59': clerked on and the court I started '407.02': practicing in front of that's it's a '409.12': little less fun to go up there today '410.59': because it's a little harder to win the '412.27': cases that I tend to be arguing I '419.11': clicked for justice baikman in October '42.469': you know the houses and the people '421.72': term 1985 so it was the last year that '424.21': Chief Justice burger was chief justice '433.32': sure so I'll do them in order of '437.14': seniority because when justice Blackmun '439.69': used to come back from the conference '442.21': where it's just the nine justices in the '444.16': room and nobody else he would read us '446.29': his notes and he always read them in the '448.75': order the justices went which is the '45.629': walking around and everything was just '450.4': order of seniority so Chief Justice '452.92': burger he looked like a chief justice he '456.91': really did he by the time I got there '460.75': justice Blackmun and he although they '462.28': had been friends growing up and justice '464.32': Blackmun had actually been the best man '466.45': at chief justice burgers wedding by the '469.09': time I got there they really weren't '470.08': speaking to each other so I think my '471.97': views of the chief are colored somewhat '473.92': by how justice Blackmun felt about him '477.88': but the chief was very into ceremony he '48.239': it's just been delightful I hope to come '482.14': was fairly conservative not super '488.59': imaginative '490.68': my first encounter with him was there '493.11': was a party at the beginning of the term '495.54': for all of the clerks and the justices '497.37': dining-room and he came up to me and he '499.86': looked at me and he had been talking to '502.83': justice rehnquist and he looked at me '504.33': and he said well there there certainly '506.16': are a lot of you here this year and my '509.49': first reaction is how does he know I'm '51.84': back no I'm the first lawyer in the '510.69': Jewish but he actually met women because '514.29': there were seven women and so I said I '516.66': realized that's what he meant and I said '520.02': well you know justice blackmun has three '521.52': female clerks this year and it was the '523.02': first time in justice I had three and '524.76': the chief justice to me said well I '526.77': guess he's going to need a lot of help '528.09': huh and I said no no we're gonna do all '532.95': the cooking and cleaning ourselves but '536.22': so my experience what the chief was '539.75': somewhat odd justice justice Brennan was '545.43': the senior associate justice at the time '547.68': and he was extremely gregarious and '550.59': outgoing so he would you know how I how '555.6': I he would say and he had that kind of '557.37': New Jersey accent the other thing he '559.02': taught me I think this is one of the '560.58': things I've never forgotten this you '562.2': taught me how if you have to shake a lot '564.12': of people's hands to shake hands with '565.65': them which is you extend your hand and '567.36': then you grab their elbow because then '569.61': if they squeeze your hand too hard you '571.2': can squeeze their elbow and they'll '573.36': release their grip and he told me he '574.98': learned that in politics he was very '579.45': gregarious he was he made an effort I '584.4': think and I think it was a strategic '586.29': effort in addition to just his natural '587.97': outgoing personality to get to know a '590.22': lot of the clerks in the building '591.54': because I think he felt that that helped '593.36': him to enlist them kind of on his side '597.27': in a way justice White was a leader '6.45': advanced here every but it was exciting '600.78': frankfurter type person '604.46': yeah I think in a way I think in a way '608.02': justice frankfurter I'm sorry justice '611.089': white was the second most senior '614.029': associate justice he had given up '617.3': playing basketball with the clerk's by '618.98': the time I was there apparently a couple '620.54': of years before a clerk who had been '622.19': just frustrated by the justices somewhat '624.86': over rough play had just cold-cocked him '626.57': during a game but he's still putted with '629.149': his clerks for money after every '63.03': family I mean my grandmother's brother '630.529': afternoon and it was interesting my year '635.57': at the courts the division among the '639.83': justices the thing that most seemed to '643.399': divide them was there were a couple of '645.86': abortion cases and Lawrence against '648.92': Texas which was a case about the Georgia '65.07': in law was a lawyer but I didn't spend '652.43': sodomy I'm sorry not Lawrence against '654.2': Texas Bowers against Hardwick the case '655.94': about the Georgia sodomy statute which '657.77': was ultimately overruled by the Supreme '659.24': Court later in Lawrence against Texas '66.689': much time with him I actually decided to '661.19': and so there was a there was a little '663.29': bit of tension between justice Blackmun '665.18': and justice white because they were on '667.279': opposite sides of this two cases the '670.97': next justice down was justice Marshall '673.87': and by the time I got to the Supreme '676.82': Court he was I think he was he was quite '68.97': become a lawyer because when I was a '680.54': old I mean there were five of the '682.339': justices were over 75 the year I was '684.38': there he was quite old he wasn't in the '686.54': best of health and so he moved very '689.779': slowly and I think he was kind of angry '692.6': and alienated by then quite a bit from '694.79': the court but occasionally if he stopped '697.94': by his chambers in the afternoon he '699.68': would be in a storytelling mood and he '701.27': would just he was a marvellous '702.83': storyteller so you tell stories about '704.39': his time in practice I think you know I '707.3': think he was one of the obviously one of '71.64': junior in high school over that summer I '710.72': the most formative lawyers of the 20th '712.73': century but I think he's one of those '715.1': people if you were writing his biography '716.6': most of the good stuff happened before '718.76': he got to the Supreme Court as opposed '720.74': to some of the justices for whom the '722.75': Supreme Court really was the pinnacle of '724.85': their achievement '726.65': then there was just a splatter then came '733.85': justice Powell justice Powell had been '737.21': sick the year before and had been out '738.86': for quite some time and is still a '74.43': read simple justice which is a book by '741.35': little frail when I got there but you '743.69': know and kind of extraordinarily '745.48': gentlemanly one of the clerk's my year '748.78': had a serious had a serious medical '752.71': issue and justice justice Powell sent '756.92': flowers to the clerk afterwards you know '759.89': just the charming man um he switched his '76.38': Richard Kluger about the litigation that '765.05': vote in one of the biggest cases my year '766.85': Bowers against Hardwick and I think '769.01': justice Blackmun was convinced the chief '772.31': had lobbied him very hard on that case '774.88': he was the swing vote when I was there '777.35': and so a lot of issues so there was a '78.689': led up to Brown against Board of '780.11': lot of concentration on him after him '783.41': came justice Stevens '786.74': oh no justice rehnquist came and then '789.08': just as soon as it justice rehnquist '790.91': you know when he was an Associate '792.44': Justice I think was a little bit looser '795.83': than he was when he was chief justice '798.28': although the interesting thing for me is '8.28': today you had probably the largest crowd '80.13': Education and I decided I wanted to be a '800.63': when I went back to visit justice '802.43': blackmun after justice rehnquist had '805.7': taken over and became chief justice '807.02': rehnquist everybody loved him as chief '809.09': justice he's thought to be extremely '811.19': fair and balanced and straightforward in '813.74': a way that I think the liberal justices '815.48': had not felt about just as Chief Justice '818.54': burger but when I was there he was still '821.27': a relatively junior justice he was quite '823.37': often in dissent much more so than when '827.39': he became chief justice but very '829.79': friendly very casual his clerks were out '83.759': civil rights lawyer and work for the '832.73': of the building by 6 p.m. '835.27': midnight then after him came justice '838.0': Stevens who was exactly the same you '84.84': n-double-a-cp Legal Defense Fund so that '841.39': know interestingly quirky and always in '846.04': a bowtie he only had two clerks the '848.53': other justices all had four and there's '852.01': very much kind of his own his own person '854.92': and then came justice O'Connor who was '857.02': very junior obviously when I was there '858.61': she was in her I guess her fourth or '859.84': fifth term on the court and you know '864.18': extremely personable she ran a exercise '868.14': class for all the female clerks at 8:00 '87.96': book inspired me to become a lawyer 'no '871.45': a.m. and we were invited to go to it but '873.28': unfortunately justice Blackmun had '874.96': breakfast with all of his clerks at 8:00 '876.67': a.m. so I think we'd managed to get to '878.56': the exercise class two or three days '880.12': when he was out of town but other than '881.68': that we didn't go justice blackmun wrote '889.9': to me one of the more interesting '892.29': decisions and oh honey school yeah do '897.31': you guys ever have any reason to talk '898.81': about that well yes so I think it would '902.65': have been justice Blackmun's it might '907.48': have been his 80th birthday but it was '909.01': one of his big birthdays we're having a '91.32': snow there's a one discussion in that '910.57': clerks reunion and as you know in flood '912.97': against Kuhn which is the best buy in '914.68': entrust case there's this kind of '917.89': passage at the beginning of it that's a '919.84': list of famous baseball players and it '922.0': goes on and on and apparently if he '923.5': started out with about ten of them then '925.27': various people around the building would '926.53': suggest people and then somebody said '927.94': well but if you're going to include you '929.74': know if you're going to include tinker's '931.63': you have to include Evers own occlude '934.0': Evers you have to include chances so '935.2': they just that list kind of expanded and '938.41': expanded and there was a story in the '94.259': book about justice jackson and his then '940.66': Brethren that right after the opinion '944.89': came down somebody said to him how could '947.44': you not include Jimmie Foxx and he said '949.72': Jimmie Foxx was '952.24': and the president no he's not and the '954.77': Justice went back and looked at the list '956.36': and sure enough Jimmie Foxx is not on '957.71': the list and the line in the brethren is '960.77': something like and justice Biden said '962.09': I'll never forgive myself so for his for '965.33': his um for his 80th birthday I think it '968.66': was his 80th we decided we were going to '970.82': get him one of Jimmy Fox's bags and we '973.85': looked into it and we could not find one '975.83': but it turns out that Hilary Jim Bradley '978.05': I think that's what the Louisville '979.22': Slugger company's name is they keep the '98.189': law clerk William Rehnquist and the '981.35': measurements of every player on file for '984.23': their backs and so we went to them and '986.15': we had them replicate one of Jimmy Fox's '990.41': bats and we had it mounted on a plaque '992.57': and on the bottom it just said I will '994.88': never forgive myself '996.32': hav and we gave it to him the clerk saw '999.32': gave it to him for his his his birthday

/data/video_data.parquet/447/447259/7QD30-4wqZw/360p_1080.mp4

Pam Karlan (2012) interview

On Aug. 22, 2012, the Robert H. Jackson Center hosted Prof. Pam Karlan. She was the annual Robert H. Jackson lecturer at Chautauqua Institution. The interview was conducted by Greg Peterson and covered her career, reflections on her mentor Justice Harry Blackmun and legacy of Robert H. Jackson. For further information, see www.roberthjackson.org.

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'0.299': thank you for coming by the way this is '10.889': we've ever had for a Robert Jackson '1003.58': I saw it actually posted in his chambers '1007.9': the day he died after his funeral we all '101.39': famous or now infamous memorandum from '1010.36': went back to the chambers to hang out '1011.74': and there was the bat which I think was '1014.05': several people asked for it but I think '1016.24': it was given to the Library of Congress '1017.62': and the other thing about baseball that '1019.45': I is he had been a friend of the '1021.49': Griffiths who owned the then the '1024.459': Minneapolis Millers later the twins and '1027.97': so we would talk about baseball a lot it '1030.16': at breakfast and one day in the '1036.31': afternoon he I was in the upstairs '1038.8': chambers and I got a phone call used to '104.579': justice to justice Jackson from justice '1040.12': come down the Justice has somebody he '1042.52': wants you to meet and this group called '1044.35': the email verbum society was having its '1046.51': reunion in Washington I guess there's a '1048.13': Cubs thing and so there were these three '1053.5': guys and like bad fitting sports coats '1055.36': in his office and he introduced them to '1058.0': me and two of them I don't remember the '1059.14': name is because I'm not a Cubs fan at '1061.24': all but the last one was Andy Pafko who '1063.52': had been a Dodger as well '1065.96': at a nice conversation when afternoon '1068.299': with Andy Pafko '107.909': Rehnquist as you went through that '1070.789': and the last baseball thing I'll tell '1072.289': you is when justice blackmun retired '1074.539': from the Supreme Court I was asked to do '1076.639': one of the tributes for him in the '1078.379': Harvard Law Review and one of the things '1082.549': I talked about in the in the tribute was '1089.33': this article that been written called '1091.519': your law baseball quiz I think I told '1093.2': you about this last night where they '1094.34': compare different justices to different '1097.96': famous baseball players and I said that '110.13': clipper book in you and you've read '1100.85': you know so I tell the story of you know '1102.47': Jackie Jenson is like Byron white '1104.509': because they were both better at '1105.499': football and then I say you know and '1108.59': they compared the guy to this compared '111.93': about the activities of Thurgood '1110.769': Felix Frankfurter do among other things '1112.909': Wayne Terwilliger and I and I and then '1115.46': the art of I just set up foot and I said '1116.99': who is Wayne Terwilliger and so and then '1121.279': ultimately I said that if I had to pick '1122.99': somebody for justice blackmun to be like '1124.94': I had thought originally about Bobby '1126.529': Brown because justice like they wanted '1128.6': to be a doctor just like Bobby Brown '113.909': Marshall and William Coleman and the '1130.129': became a doctor and that I thought of '1132.32': you know a couple of other people like '1134.299': that you know Charlie Gehringer because '1136.549': it was a little tiny you know little '1141.32': tiny second baseman and you know a great '1143.529': fielder but not not a big batter and '1146.72': ultimately I came out with Dave Winfield '1148.58': which people might not have guessed '1149.779': because both of them came from st. Paul '1151.759': and made something of themselves both of '1153.86': them played the game long after many of '1155.809': their contemporaries had retired and '1157.279': both of them owed their start to a '1159.44': convicted but later pardoned Watergate '1161.629': felon to a later I'm sorry to a later '1164.809': pardoned Watergate felon because '1168.1': Blackman got his seat on the Supreme '1169.82': Court from Nixon and '117.21': whole cadre of people who were working '1172.94': George Steinbrenner's the person who '1174.68': gave Dave Winfield his biggest contract '1177.25': and so when I know sir yes so I read '1179.72': this and I wouldn't you know and the '1181.34': next time I visited the Justice that '1182.75': Justice said oh I really liked your your '1185.54': tribute a lot but come with me and he '1187.4': led me down the hall into a storeroom he '119.79': on the case did that inspire you to the '1190.67': was bending down at the Thurgood '1191.81': Marshall Center and he pulled out a copy '1193.82': of the baseball encyclopedia and he said '1197.09': this is Wayne Terwilliger and took me to '12.63': lecture and certainly the largest to '1200.45': the page twig I'd never heard of him and '1204.98': I'm a baseball fan and I'd never heard '1206.92': okay yeah I think until a few years ago '1209.33': still in baseball as a coach didn't even '1212.99': talk about Roe versus Wade ooh yes '1214.58': yeah um so the first time you talked '1216.95': about Roe vs. Wade is when I went to '1218.51': interview with him he had a justice '1221.48': blackmun would have been a tax lawyer '1223.1': before he was then counsel at the Mayo '1224.99': Clinic and he had exactly the habits you '1227.63': would expect from somebody who'd been a '1228.86': very good tax it's like incredibly '123.99': extent that you could find that that's a '1230.48': meticulous and precise and so when he '1232.34': interviewed people he had this long list '1234.32': of questions written out and he asked '1236.63': you the questions they wrote down the '1237.74': answers in pencil and towards the end of '1240.47': the interview he said now I want to ask '1242.54': you a question and I want you to think '1244.25': about this very carefully '1249.509': now I've written an opinion that's a '1252.239': little bit controversial and some people '1254.759': find that the kind of opinion that they '1257.549': have trouble with and you need to think '126.03': lineage that you could have '1260.549': about whether you would be comfortable '1261.809': working for me '1263.009': given the opinion and I'm sort of '1264.749': racking my brain to think like what '1266.249': opinion is he talking about '1268.799': and he said you may have heard of it and '127.74': yeah well I you know I decided I wanted '1271.049': now I'm thinking okay what is he gonna '1272.489': say '1272.909': he said it's called Roe against Wade and '1275.19': you know I'm a little bit of a kind of '1277.799': smartass sometimes and all I could think '1279.539': is just don't say oh my god you're that '1281.399': Harry Blackmun you're kidding but he '1284.519': actually had had a clerk apparently '1286.409': several years before who had in the '1288.119': middle of the year had a religious '1290.489': revelation that Roe was wrong and so '1295.139': that was the first time that I had a '1296.58': conversation then we had two abortion '1299.1': cases my year at the Supreme Court and '130.24': to work for the n-double-a-cp Legal '1300.96': it's actually the kind of high watermark '1303.359': of abortion rights at the Supreme Court '1305.07': was one of those cases the kids called '1306.45': Thornburg against American College of '1308.039': Obstetricians and Gynaecologists which '131.89': Defense Fund which is the organization '1310.649': the Justice wrote and so we had a fair '1313.859': number of conversations about abortion '1316.259': and he was convinced that you know that '1318.659': was also the first time that there was '1319.98': five to four who done a poll the kind of '1322.85': central premise of row because the Chief '1325.289': Justice which side so he talked about a '1327.419': lot then and then as you probably know '133.57': that bill Coleman and Charlie black and '1330.389': he used to teach at the Aspen Institute '1332.159': in the summer a justice and society '1335.039': class and he spent a day of that talking '1337.889': about the decision process leading up to '1339.929': Roe and I was there '1342.74': what do you say well he thought I mean '1345.87': it's interesting I think although he '1348.12': wouldn't I think he wouldn't put it '1350.309': quite this way his thoughts about ro '1352.02': evolved somewhat over time this when he '1355.29': started on the case his major you know '1358.95': the major focus for him was the practice '136.87': Lou and Thurgood Marshall and '1362.34': of medicine because he had come out of '1363.99': being counsel at the Mayo Clinic and he '1365.91': took very seriously they did it this was '1367.83': a medical procedure and therefore it was '1370.08': up to women in consultation with their '1372.78': doctors to make this decision in the way '1375.179': that would be true of all other medical '1376.919': procedures I think over time he came to '1379.049': see ro as equally about women's autonomy '138.64': Jack Greenberg were all part of and in '1383.76': that it wasn't mostly about medical '1386.07': autonomy it was about women's autonomy '1388.62': by the time I got there I think he was '1390.299': thinking about it and much those two '1392.79': things to have more much more in '1394.41': equipoise in being important to him but '1397.41': he just thought it was not the kind of '1398.91': decision that should be made '14.25': stay around well excellent yeah your '1400.4': categorically by the state as opposed to '1402.75': by individuals given the circumstances '1405.33': they found themselves in a gym ropes '1408.5': publicly switched no I think I think she '141.4': fact that's what I did do when I was in '1413.07': had said by then that she regretted '1414.84': having had the abortion but it wasn't '1416.85': until maybe about five years ago there '1419.22': so that she filed a sort of coram nobis '1420.75': training in Roe overturned if you had '1427.53': this pause and Sarah Gregg I've been in '143.11': law school I worked there for each of '1430.59': violence constitutional law business for '1432.44': since eighties and you had to pick kind '1436.5': of the five seminal cases to teach a '1439.98': master's class '144.73': the summers I was in law school '1444.52': five cases since the 1980s startup '1448.0': America okay '1449.26': doing a little baseline yeah was your '1451.35': people so if I had to pick the cases '1455.71': since I started since I started well '146.2': and then I was a staff lawyer there for '1462.4': you'd have to teach District of Columbia '1467.71': against Heller the Second Amendment case '1470.08': in part because it's just it's like a '1472.42': kind of kaleidoscope of all the '1474.28': different methods of constitutional '1475.96': interpretation it's got a little bit of '1477.46': originalism a little bit of textualism '1479.32': some pragmatic consequentialism a little '148.03': several years before I went into '1482.41': bit of the structure a constitutional '1484.179': structural reasoning and so although I '1486.49': know I'm not sure that the opinion has '1488.2': big legs that is I'm not sure that '149.44': teaching and I still continued to work '1490.03': there's going to be a lot of laws struck '1491.559': down that would have otherwise been '1492.73': upheld or like it's it's a it's a real '1496.45': window into contemporary constitutional '1499.12': law so I definitely teach that I think I '1503.53': would teach Lawrence against Texas '1506.62': because for substantive due process '1508.929': cases it's one of the most interesting '151.36': with them on cases so I'd like to think '1512.2': ones and you can see echoes of all of '1516.28': the sort of different prior cases in it '1519.87': I would definitely teach the Affordable '1525.49': Care Act case because it reviews huge '1529.48': amounts of constitutional law up till '1531.309': then and it sets down some markers for '1534.67': the future '1539.2': I'd have to teach one of the race cases '154.45': of myself as being part of the extended '1542.27': on the question of which race case to '1544.34': teach you know on the one hand Gruder is '1548.09': very important but I think maybe parents '1550.309': involved against Seattle School District '1552.86': number one is more significant because '1555.64': there's more of a discussion of what the '1557.809': meaning of brown is for modern times and '156.94': Legal Defense Fund family did you ever '1562.159': it's more of a contemporary court and '1567.01': then I mean there are a lot of different '1570.409': candidates because it depends on what '1572.48': you're trying to do in the master class '1573.799': that is if you're trying to say which '1575.09': cases have had the most impact on '1577.99': everyday people's lives that's going to '1580.279': be a different question than if you're '1581.75': sort of saying which cases give you the '1583.669': greatest insight into kind of how the '1587.39': justices think about things '159.7': catch up with any of those oh oh yes '1592.56': today if the presentation you gave '1595.58': wonderful wonderful conversation with '1603.56': Jackson and currency current issues '1609.48': which is of course the Jackson mission '1613.05': here is to create the relevancy of '1614.73': justice Jackson today and you did a '1617.82': phenomenal job of doing just that '1620.81': well they didn't mention one of the ones '1623.19': where he's been most influential because '1624.54': it was a lay audience which is the steel '1627.57': seizure drill the kind of three-part '1630.42': framework for determining the '1632.7': relationship between the executive power '1634.59': and legislative power and '1637.55': constitutionality but I thought to try '1640.47': and do that with a lay audience would be '1642.27': almost impossible two years ago John '1645.24': created an event at Albany Law School '1647.73': and Phil Neil said if there's anything '165.64': absolutely so I knew Jack greenberg '1655.08': one thing it probably needs to be done '1656.49': in law school so we got to teach Jackson '1659.13': and specifically his ability to write '1661.5': this style and also taking it to one '1664.35': step further which is what you did today '1666.74': is it realistic well I mean I could see '167.92': quite well I knew bill Coleman who was '1672.21': teaching a seminar it would be a great '1674.61': seminar to teach one justice through a '1678.23': range of cases I mean I've often so I '1682.23': have a friend who's also a law professor '1683.88': who once suggested you should teach a '1685.23': course called some like 342 us and the '1688.32': case book for the course would simply be '1689.85': that volume of us reports because I find '1692.76': that you can often see really '1694.98': interesting relationships between cases '1697.35': that don't look like they're about the '1699.27': same thing but that are decided around '170.17': chairman of the board of the Legal '1702.18': the same time so I think it'd be '1703.65': wonderful to have a course that focused '1705.72': on a single justice I mean you'd want it '1707.94': obviously to be an advanced con law '1709.74': class or an advanced law class more '171.52': Defense Fund by the time I was a lawyer '1712.2': general '1712.68': so that it might also involve statutory '1714.87': interpretation as well as constitutional '1716.55': interpretation but I think the the '1720.21': chance to read the unaccepted decisions '1723.09': of in particular justice you actually '1724.86': get a sense of what a an opinion looks '1726.75': like as opposed to what's in the case '1728.64': book which is a little bit of fact and '173.98': there quite well I met Thurgood Marshall '1730.62': then boom into the money language yeah '1733.95': it'd be great thing to do you can't '1738.39': there's so much so far because you look '1742.38': in the crystal ball for the next five '1743.7': years the pen Carlin is there books you '1747.18': want to write are their positions you'd '1749.52': like to get is there the ambitions of '1753.27': panco oh I well one of my ambitions is '1756.45': to be a better teacher you know I love '1759.9': teaching I love with the clinical '176.71': when I was clerking at the Supreme Court '1761.88': teaching and the regular teaching a '1763.47': little bit of it is also you know after '1766.29': you've done any particular thing for a '1768.09': while you're always looking for a little '1769.29': something new to do so for a while I was '1773.07': kind of some training almost entirely on '1774.39': election law stuff and now for the last '1776.64': six or seven years my primary focus has '1779.13': been this clinic about litigates cases '1780.9': at the Supreme Court so I was thinking '1782.85': like maybe it's around time to figure '1785.25': out what the next thing is I don't have '1787.62': you know ambitions to change my life '1789.9': permanently inside in some way '179.59': I knew Constance Baker motley from when '1792.85': I'd like to spend some time working at '1795.22': the Department of Justice I think you '1797.14': know the right job came along at the '1798.61': right time it's always one of these '18.9': first time to Chautauqua what's your '1800.2': questions of timing and job and like I '1802.03': mean I was offered the job that I would '1804.1': now like to have I was offered in the '1806.89': Clinton administration but it was the '1808.63': wrong time and I was changing schools at '1811.84': that point and I'm single you know I '1815.11': didn't want to take two years it's kind '1817.87': of a two-year detour but as you get '182.32': I was working at the district court in '1820.78': older it seems less of a detour and more '1822.52': of an opportunity just to serve and then '1824.62': go back to being just a country law '1828.46': professor '183.91': New York she was the chief judge when I '1831.01': okay so President Obama gets reelected '1835.83': Ruth Bader Ginsburg resides where the '1840.929': Kennedys well to figure out who the top '1846.37': three candidates are you would need to '1847.78': know what year she resigns in and what '1849.73': the Senate looks like because if the '185.29': was clerking on that Court and Bob '1852.429': Democrats have control of the Senate '1854.08': you'll see a different nominee than if '1856.48': the Republicans have control of the '1858.22': Senate some of it depends on you know '1864.07': people people can kind of shoot out of '1866.11': nowhere in various ways you know Elena '1870.88': Kagan was the first justice in probably '1874.95': what twenty years to be since Justice '1879.52': Rehnquist was the and justice Powell was '188.11': Carter I knew just from you know hanging '1881.5': the first justice to go on the Supreme '1883.0': Court not coming out of an appellate '1885.58': court I mean justice O'Connor was a '1887.41': state court and to be really accurate '1890.83': justice Souter was mostly a state court '1892.809': judge he had only been on the first '1896.23': circuit for less than a year but that's '1898.12': a different kind of pick and so be '1900.22': interesting to see whether the president '1901.72': decides to think about somebody's held '1904.059': elective office I mean that was one of '1905.65': the points I was making in my lecture '1907.99': today '1908.95': institution is that we don't have any '1912.59': balance Precourt with real nitty gritty '1916.6': running for office experience so I could '1919.789': see something like Jennifer Granholm or '192.1': around with civil rights lawyers so I '1923.169': lisa madigan who's Attorney General of '1926.12': Illinois or camel Harris is Attorney '1929.809': General of California you know the '193.99': think of all of the people who were '1934.22': president hasn't put a lot of women on '1937.64': the federal courts of appeals yet so if '1940.58': that's where you're looking you know '1942.52': it's not clear that there's a deep bench '1945.529': of Democrats there if it's a Republican '1949.399': kind if it's a Republican Senate he's '1951.23': going to have to move considerably '1953.36': towards the middle it's pretty hard to '1956.57': know Mitt Romney Jordan is nice up '196.24': still alive who had argued in brown by '1964.97': that's that's I was a stock hold of '1969.289': American Motors Corporation just once '1970.97': you know that South Fargo and Detroit '1973.88': Tigers friends put that on respected '1976.85': Mitt Romney was fully Republican and '1979.58': he's got the choice there two or three '1982.57': candidates that jump out to use logical '1985.61': yeah so I I would think for him the kind '1989.27': of obvious choices would be Brett '199.48': the time I was an adult I've met I get I '1991.97': Kavanaugh who's on the DC circuit very '1994.159': young very conservative Jeff Sutton from '1996.62': the sixth circuit young and conservative '1999.169': ents smart although Jeff probably didn't '2.04': Gregor you're us your startup has been '20.34': impressions of all this well I've been '2001.27': do himself a big favor when he upheld '2004.75': the Affordable Care Act and then I would '2009.34': think Paul Clemente who's the Solicitor '201.58': managed to meet them all I mean all of '2011.26': General would be '2013.419': in the Bush administration be a kind of '2015.399': obvious candidate those straight me as '2018.999': the people most likely in a Romney '2021.969': administration I'm smiling because dolly '2024.309': lives would answered the same question '2026.979': in the same way well '203.17': the people argued on the right side yeah '2030.659': paranoid paranoid liberal she had a '2033.009': couple of a couple of mail names to the '2035.229': democratic posted oh yeah I mean III I '2037.779': convinced I mean '2039.249': Judge garland would be you know if it's '204.76': did you find that with that did you find '2041.559': in the next year or two '2042.879': who's on the DC Circuit would be a kind '2045.669': of obvious candidate you know now that '2050.649': Paul Watford has gotten onto the ninth '2053.649': circuit '2054.429': he might be an extremely attractive '2056.71': candidate most important question she's '2063.579': baseball became its antitrust exemption '2066.149': well you know I'm a big bill James fan '2068.679': and Bill James has a discussion of this '2070.839': where he says that if you got rid of the '2072.519': antitrust exemption what you might start '2074.74': to see is a kind of proliferation of a '2077.829': third or fourth majorly don't was coming '2081.069': out of minor league teams I'm not sure '2086.589': what function the antitrust exemption '2089.609': really performs today given that there's '2092.139': now an agreement between the Players '2094.48': Association and the teams right you know '2098.47': and and a huge percentage ever since '210.61': that you went to law school and were '2101.349': free agency a huge percentage of the '2104.769': revenue has moved over to the players '2106.48': I'm not sure that the existing players '2108.43': would favor getting rid of me and I '2109.99': trust exemption such an anachronism yeah '2113.98': yeah but hard to see that it's actually '2116.92': having much effect on on the game itself '2119.4': and the real question is how you '2121.93': maintain competitive balance if you if '2124.569': you want to maintain the sport the real '2126.039': question is how to maintain competitive '2127.93': balance and without the antitrust '2129.22': exemption '213.37': there a lot of your classmates who found '2130.33': it might be harder easier Supreme Court '2133.72': Historical Society is celebrating the '2135.73': 40th anniversary of that decision and '2137.7': they have working with two podium '2144.82': individuals and a judge to sort of '2147.28': reenact the case and that simply take it '2149.5': through everything for me there I think '2152.35': folks do it all as far as any guidance '2154.15': no no I know flood against tuna was way '2157.21': before my time '2157.96': yeah but thank you I know I know but '216.67': that social part of the practice of law '2161.5': every time I say something critical '2163.75': about the Chief Justice and being an '2165.28': umpire diminish my chances of being '2168.43': invited to the flood against Hugh '2170.11': celebration well tell me about that well '2177.79': you wrote that did you get feedback did '2179.41': you like no not well the Chief Justice '2182.2': doesn't blow back there did somebody I '2184.39': mean if there's no no I mean I'd if '2188.02': there I was at an event where I talked '219.81': important well I think you know I have a '2190.66': about this and this may be kind of music '2196.03': so has an event where I talked about '2197.26': this a little bit of know you know but '2199.0': Chief Justice and the umpire analogy '22.41': hearing about Chautauqua for years when '2201.43': like and efforts Justice Thomas was had '2204.22': been there and he came up to me and said '2206.5': hey give you a little bicep a nice oh '2208.42': yeah sure mr. justice he said don't hold '2210.22': back '2210.49': tell us what you really think have you '2212.56': got a stop being that you've got to stop '2214.09': being so reticent so no you know the '2218.98': Chief Justice isn't just as a big boy '2220.96': yeah '2223.22': by the way Jen talked about Thursday '2226.01': I've been in social situations where '2227.48': he's been there in by far and away when '2229.16': all the justices are there and it '223.36': lot of friends from Moscow who have done '2230.78': Supreme Court Oracle society man well '2232.46': he's very outgoing you can get access '2234.619': immediate access to everybody but him '2236.27': because time it's only because you've '2238.25': got 40 50 people hanging on I mean it's '2240.74': just doctors you can't get them no he's '2243.14': got more social skills in one-on-one '2245.54': than the average surgeries are just '2247.13': essentially he slapped more people on '2249.829': the back down and all the reason of the '225.13': public interest practice or either for '2254.42': current justices and you've written '2257.69': about them what's what's your sense of '2264.73': Roberts decision you know how do you '2268.19': read that in the healthcare act I don't '227.68': private groups like the Legal Defense '2272.39': wanna say Obamacare because you don't '2273.5': want me to say about that well wrong '2278.06': news head I mean I don't want to crawl '2280.91': into his head I I was not surprised at '2284.27': all by most of what he wrote that is I '2286.28': was not surprised that he upheld it on '2287.839': taxing power grounds and I was not '229.45': Fund or for the government so yeah I '2291.89': surprised that he thought there was a '2294.68': spending Clause problem with Medicaid '2296.96': because those seem to me to be pretty '2299.93': predictable what did surprise me is how '2302.3': much he went out of his way to decide '2305.21': the Commerce Clause issue when it wasn't '2306.98': necessary to the bottom line because as '2308.9': you know he spent a lot of time talking '2310.849': about how we should did not decide the '2313.52': things we don't need to decide and then '2315.829': in this case he went out of his way to '2317.329': do it and he's done that before that is '2320.27': his opinion for the court in the new '2323.51': Mudd no case which is a case about '2325.9': constitutionality of section 5 of the '2327.61': Voting Rights Act the court ultimately '2329.08': decided it on very narrow statutory '233.47': think a fair number of the people I knew '2331.54': grounds but along the way he said a lot '2334.03': of nasty things about the Voting Rights '2335.5': Act um you know he was a clerk for '2341.5': Justice Rehnquist and observed Justice '2343.99': Rehnquist's Supreme Court career he is a '2346.72': huge fan of Chief Justice John Marshall '2349.72': and has thought a lot about John '235.81': in law school were very committed to '2351.34': Marshalls career and both of those men '2353.83': both Marshall and Rehnquist were '2357.19': extremely strategic and kept their eye '2360.91': on the long view and that's true for the '2364.93': Chief Justice as well '2365.92': the man is 57 years old he does not need '2369.67': to take all the cards off the table in '237.25': doing civil rights work and have done it '2371.62': one hand and I think his decision his '2376.45': opinion in the affordable care act case '2379.33': was an extremely strategic decision so '2384.01': that somebody and all sides could have '2386.32': think once they read it they read it '2389.25': fine glass they can get something out of '2392.05': that well he it's designed to make him '2394.99': appear statesman like right which is he '2399.55': sort of says look you there's this '24.029': I was growing up because my grandmother '240.04': in one form or another '2401.74': passage towards the beginning of his '2403.72': opinion where he says it's not our job '2405.73': to save the people from the consequences '2408.07': of their political decisions our job is '241.27': their careers constitutional law of all '2410.08': to apply the law well what is that '2412.42': supposed to mean '2413.35': and not our job to save the people from '2415.45': their consequences their political '2416.65': decisions in other words saying if you '2418.21': pass a stupid statute like this don't '2419.98': expect us to fix it so I think it was '2424.48': designed to make him appear '2428.01': non-political right he's he's turning '2432.19': his back on the Tea Party agenda '2434.289': case while also allowing him to say a '2437.739': bunch of nasty things about the kind of '2442.479': liberal welfare state and I think he '2446.819': gained a fair amount of capital from the '2449.38': decision there that will stand him in '245.74': that was was at the area which obviously '2451.329': good stead when he spends it on issues '2453.039': he cares more about I don't think the '2454.689': Commerce Clause is the biggest issue for '2457.059': the chief justice that he cares about in '2458.829': constitutional law but certainly don't '2461.529': think the taxing powers Robert Jackson '2465.279': Center you're here today the thrilled '2467.199': you are here today and we are here to '2469.749': advance the legacy of Justice Robert '2472.029': Jackson I had Michael Berenbaum whom you '2474.429': met sitting at seat just yesterday '2476.559': asking him you know if he had some '2478.599': advice for us for only 11 years old or '248.85': established a reputation well the kind '2481.119': work-in-progress as to areas of which to '2484.209': find ourselves and if you had to give us '2487.509': some guidance panel well if you think '2490.9': about justice Jackson right what are the '2492.999': kind of things he's most known for the '2496.539': Nuremberg trials which obviously have '2499.239': continued bearing on the world today '25.56': and her first cousin came every summer '2502.839': because of '2505.44': the rise of international war crimes '2508.98': tribunals and Human Rights Tribunal '2511.17': sunlight I mean obviously that's one '2513.78': area where you know he serves as a kind '2516.869': of focal point for the United States on '2518.819': that and then the other thing I think is '252.85': of irony about that is when I got to law '2523.05': legal writing to go back to the point '2526.2': you were making about Phil Neal earlier '2527.819': that justice Jackson was such a clear '2531.0': writer and thinker I think it'd just be '2534.42': really useful to think about how do you '2538.55': perpetuate that legacy I mean you know '2542.46': you can read a Robert Jackson opinion '2544.319': today and it speaks to you whereas you '2547.5': know you read some of the opinions from '2548.97': the if you know from the Warren burger '255.31': school my first semester in law school I '2554.42': Rehnquist and Roberts courts and they're '2557.88': just impenetrable '2561.35': or they're impenetrable sort of masses '2565.49': of soupy mass with a couple of quotable '2568.25': lines thrown and the thing that's '257.26': was assigned to constitutional law with '2570.32': interesting you know and made it a '2572.06': little hard when I was preparing my talk '2573.92': for today for the Jackson centers '2575.18': sometimes the best Jackson quotations '2577.55': are two or three paragraphs long because '2581.09': he's setting up an argument and then '2583.66': explaining the argument as he goes '2585.71': through it '2586.22': I mean he's not he isn't even though '2587.96': he's got some of the greatest one-liners '2589.64': in Supreme Court history that's not '259.72': Robert Bork so I'm not sure that what I '2591.47': actually what makes him the greatest '2593.0': writer in some ways and so getting '2595.49': people to focus more on legal writing '2597.94': would you do that boy you know that's an '2601.73': interesting question I mean I think it'd '2606.77': be great to have to have you know have '2610.49': something that gives people a sense of '2612.11': how good his writing was you know some '2617.39': of it depends on which audiences you're '2618.86': aiming at I mean I think having a legal '2621.71': writing thing where you bring in judges '2623.48': and talk to them about legal write it I '2625.61': mean especially like state Supreme Court '2627.74': justice is often don't get much training '263.65': learned in first-year constitutional law '2630.5': and how to write an opinion or how to '2631.88': think about it '2637.569': what hurry black would mean to pimp oh '2641.259': he was he was everything he was just '2644.539': such a great boss and he and he was so '2648.47': meticulous I mean one of the things that '2650.269': he really taught me was attention to '2652.549': detail because he was very much a detail '2654.799': man and just an extremely brave man I '2658.67': mean the year before I clerked for the '266.49': stuck I I knew I disagreed with him and '2660.65': summer that I clerk from your that that '2663.529': previous spring you know when he came '2665.45': back to start eating breakfast with us '2667.94': we had a US Marshal and a Supreme Court '2669.71': police officer with us every morning at '2672.38': breakfast and the reason for that is '2673.64': that he had been shot out the year '2675.769': before he got up to go to the kitchen '2678.74': and a bullet came through the window and '2680.66': landed in the chair it did sitting in '2682.97': mmm one of the things he then ended up '2685.039': with it was a huge kerfuffle with his '2687.829': insurance company because there was a '2689.329': pair of upholstered chairs and the FBI '2692.21': came and like cut out a huge chunk of '2694.609': the chair that the bullet had gone into '2696.289': and he wanted to have both the chairs '2697.97': recovered and the insurance company said '2699.74': well there's nothing wrong with the '270.85': I didn't really know why I disagreed '2700.7': other chair so they've been over the '2703.339': back and forth over the chairs but you '2706.339': know he he was very principled he stuck '2709.099': to his principles and he was '2712.869': unbelievably hard-working I mean however '2715.13': hard I work I never work as hard as he '2717.38': worked '2719.52': you're the eighth speaker in Robert H '272.92': with him because I think for me the '2721.95': ejection lectureship and you've raised '2724.65': the bar very very high today '2728.16': whoo so how lucky that you're doing this '2730.26': that Mambo thing and everybody can get '2732.6': under it more easily now well that's who '2735.69': would you recommend to Jen and I next '2738.6': year '2738.99': oh so thinking about like we've had '274.87': difficulty in the way he taught us he '2743.49': solicitor jabber solicit think about '2745.74': like who is it that I love to listen to '2748.53': when they talk about law that you '2752.04': haven't had because you've had Paul '2753.78': Clemente company yeah and you've had '2755.82': Dahlia who I love listening to you know '276.46': was very fast very quick very witty and '2765.6': Bill Marshall is a really interesting '2767.66': guy - I find him just really interesting '2772.62': to listen to '2780.41': in terms of in terms of '2783.82': you know one person who'd be interesting '2785.89': to have because he's now off the bench '2787.66': and he's talking a lot more frankly '2790.21': about a lot of stuff is Vaughn Walker '2791.5': who was a federal district judge in '2793.51': California he's a really interesting '2795.43': speaker and obviously decide a huge '2797.62': number of important cases including the '2799.36': California marriage case I would think '28.92': and so I was excited to get a chance to '280.9': you're a first-year law student and so '2802.12': he'd be super interesting '2808.41': just kind of thinking '2816.84': you know my colleague Michael McConnell '2818.61': is a super interesting speaker on '282.58': even if you know you disagree with him '2821.13': virtually everything '2826.18': one person you know because I think you '2830.23': know who might be really interesting is '2831.46': sherrilyn Ifill he's a professor at the '2833.499': University of Maryland who has is '2837.49': writing right now about judicial '2839.38': confirmation hmm processes and she's an '284.05': it's hard to formulate what your '2843.069': unbelievably great and dynamic speaker '2846.42': so she might be a good person '2851.02': I should show you the clip of Dalia '2852.76': talking about you I love doll yeah I '2856.0': love dolly she's so into she wrote she '2859.48': wrote a piece this past year that was my '286.06': disagreements are and I think I didn't '2861.369': favorite piece of all time about '2863.17': corporate personhood it was about this '2865.27': little nothing burg case called that I '2867.28': think was FCC against AT&T it was a case '2869.68': about an exemption under the Freedom of '2872.829': Information Act for things that would '2876.849': interfere with the personal privacy of '2879.46': an individual and AT&T said well we '288.61': teach constitutional law until I've been '2882.79': should be able to protect ourselves here '2884.47': and that Court ultimately helped that '2887.2': they shouldn't and that Chief Justice '2888.579': makes some jokes about AT&T and not '2891.19': taking anything personally in this '2892.54': opinion but she wrote a description of '2894.7': the oral argument the case that was '2895.93': written completely as if 18t were a '2898.21': person and it's just it's just marvelous '290.38': teaching for quite some time in part '2901.98': question that is often asked oh no you '2904.809': know me you should definitely also think '2906.25': about his Walter Dellinger who is a '2908.17': great speaker and it was not on the '2912.22': court during the Robert Jackson use but '2913.96': was a Hugo black Clarke in the 1960s '2919.42': question that gets off in a spiral a '292.6': because I didn't want to have my '2921.76': radio guy is if you've had a chance to '2924.97': have dinner '2927.19': '- John Gemini anybody in history you can' '2933.01': choose three guests who did related '2937.24': somebody you're fine '2938.47': just extremely fascinating - really well '2942.24': that's it you know that's such a hard '2944.44': question cuz okay you want to have '2948.7': dinner with us somebody who will '2949.57': actually talk to you about that stuff as '295.63': students experience constitutional line '2951.79': opposed to somebody who won't talk about '2955.69': right so you might be really interested '2957.82': in knowing what somebody thinks but if '2959.98': they're very guarded then the dinner '2961.99': would be kind of painful so no no I know '2964.69': but I'm a law professor so I would '2966.82': really love to have dinner with Franklin '2969.04': Roosevelt I would really love to have '297.61': the way I had experienced it as the '2971.95': dinner with Franklin Roosevelt's and '2975.58': although I think I would have to like be '2978.16': extremely careful and sit at the other '2980.5': end of the table I'd actually love to '2982.15': have dinner with Lyndon Johnson as just '2984.64': reading the last of the following the '2986.83': Latin most recent in the bottoms of the '2988.0': Kara biography I'm just fascinated by '299.56': professor having a very strong point of '2990.94': him I just you know I'd love to and the '2997.12': other person I would love to have dinner '2998.74': with because I just love to know more '3001.11': about what made her who she was is '3003.42': Fannie Lou Hamer hmm I mean you know '3007.32': where did you get the kind of courage to '301.27': view that kind of overwhelmed whatever '3011.49': stick with it like '3016.35': this is an aside I recently interviewed '3018.9': Andrew Young and he talked they gave him '3022.14': a flash cards all the people who civil '3024.63': rights movement it was I had 20 minute '3027.27': stop that was all I had '3028.35': and I gave it to him as a baseball cards '3030.21': yeah just tell me who's left throws even '3033.21': further like oh yeah this is great '304.24': values you came into law school with so '3045.78': you are terrific and unfortunately '3051.32': looking forward to it I'm looking '3053.64': forward to what's the line about you '3055.71': know you can summarize every Jewish '3057.15': holiday in nine words they tried to kill '3059.1': us they didn't let see Cindy just texted '306.43': those tried to be very careful that I '3065.04': she's going to the restaurant '3066.63': I know we have there was she's tagging '3068.04': on two verses you got the word out right '3069.6': so was one of the partner we're gonna '3077.07': turn fishermen six okay perfect '308.14': teach my conservative students how to be '31.859': come up and when I arrived I was just '311.44': the best constitutional law lawyers they '313.24': can be as well as teaching students '315.28': whose views on the issues coincide more '3164.359': you '317.86': with mine of course finding yourself '3185.92': you '3209.74': you '323.71': from the United States Supreme Court day '326.44': one when you walked in there and well '3275.81': you '333.25': this is gonna sound odd but I actually '337.15': felt more comfortable arguing in the US '34.02': struck by how incredibly gorgeous '340.84': Supreme Court then I felt arguing in '342.88': several of the courts of appeals where '344.95': I've argued in part because I clerked at '3455.96': you '346.75': the court and so the building was '348.82': familiar to me the personnel on the '350.62': court were familiar to me you don't have '352.63': the problem when you go to the Supreme '354.01': Court that you can handle on courts of '355.36': appeals which is you don't know who your '356.71': panel is until you get there so you've '359.53': thought about you've briefed the case '36.8': Chautauqua is a combination of just '361.419': for the people you're actually gonna '362.47': argue in front of the thing that's '364.21': amazing about the argument is how fast '366.37': it goes '367.6': mean a my first argument I only had 10 '3696.23': you '370.99': minutes because I was splitting time '372.4': with the Solicitor General and I feel '375.82': like I didn't take a breath the whole '377.29': time I was up there it just pushed by me '381.0': but there's something totally '383.17': exhilarating I sometimes say to my '385.72': students that arguing in front of the '387.79': Supreme Court is the most fun you can '389.26': have in 30 minutes in public wearing '39.45': physical gorgeousness and total charm '391.54': your clothes standing up being all by '393.37': yourself doing nothing but talking and I '396.37': I continue to feel that although I have '398.89': to say that the current court is so much '402.4': more conservative than both the court I '404.59': clerked on and the court I started '407.02': practicing in front of that's it's a '409.12': little less fun to go up there today '410.59': because it's a little harder to win the '412.27': cases that I tend to be arguing I '419.11': clicked for justice baikman in October '42.469': you know the houses and the people '421.72': term 1985 so it was the last year that '424.21': Chief Justice burger was chief justice '433.32': sure so I'll do them in order of '437.14': seniority because when justice Blackmun '439.69': used to come back from the conference '442.21': where it's just the nine justices in the '444.16': room and nobody else he would read us '446.29': his notes and he always read them in the '448.75': order the justices went which is the '45.629': walking around and everything was just '450.4': order of seniority so Chief Justice '452.92': burger he looked like a chief justice he '456.91': really did he by the time I got there '460.75': justice Blackmun and he although they '462.28': had been friends growing up and justice '464.32': Blackmun had actually been the best man '466.45': at chief justice burgers wedding by the '469.09': time I got there they really weren't '470.08': speaking to each other so I think my '471.97': views of the chief are colored somewhat '473.92': by how justice Blackmun felt about him '477.88': but the chief was very into ceremony he '48.239': it's just been delightful I hope to come '482.14': was fairly conservative not super '488.59': imaginative '490.68': my first encounter with him was there '493.11': was a party at the beginning of the term '495.54': for all of the clerks and the justices '497.37': dining-room and he came up to me and he '499.86': looked at me and he had been talking to '502.83': justice rehnquist and he looked at me '504.33': and he said well there there certainly '506.16': are a lot of you here this year and my '509.49': first reaction is how does he know I'm '51.84': back no I'm the first lawyer in the '510.69': Jewish but he actually met women because '514.29': there were seven women and so I said I '516.66': realized that's what he meant and I said '520.02': well you know justice blackmun has three '521.52': female clerks this year and it was the '523.02': first time in justice I had three and '524.76': the chief justice to me said well I '526.77': guess he's going to need a lot of help '528.09': huh and I said no no we're gonna do all '532.95': the cooking and cleaning ourselves but '536.22': so my experience what the chief was '539.75': somewhat odd justice justice Brennan was '545.43': the senior associate justice at the time '547.68': and he was extremely gregarious and '550.59': outgoing so he would you know how I how '555.6': I he would say and he had that kind of '557.37': New Jersey accent the other thing he '559.02': taught me I think this is one of the '560.58': things I've never forgotten this you '562.2': taught me how if you have to shake a lot '564.12': of people's hands to shake hands with '565.65': them which is you extend your hand and '567.36': then you grab their elbow because then '569.61': if they squeeze your hand too hard you '571.2': can squeeze their elbow and they'll '573.36': release their grip and he told me he '574.98': learned that in politics he was very '579.45': gregarious he was he made an effort I '584.4': think and I think it was a strategic '586.29': effort in addition to just his natural '587.97': outgoing personality to get to know a '590.22': lot of the clerks in the building '591.54': because I think he felt that that helped '593.36': him to enlist them kind of on his side '597.27': in a way justice White was a leader '6.45': advanced here every but it was exciting '600.78': frankfurter type person '604.46': yeah I think in a way I think in a way '608.02': justice frankfurter I'm sorry justice '611.089': white was the second most senior '614.029': associate justice he had given up '617.3': playing basketball with the clerk's by '618.98': the time I was there apparently a couple '620.54': of years before a clerk who had been '622.19': just frustrated by the justices somewhat '624.86': over rough play had just cold-cocked him '626.57': during a game but he's still putted with '629.149': his clerks for money after every '63.03': family I mean my grandmother's brother '630.529': afternoon and it was interesting my year '635.57': at the courts the division among the '639.83': justices the thing that most seemed to '643.399': divide them was there were a couple of '645.86': abortion cases and Lawrence against '648.92': Texas which was a case about the Georgia '65.07': in law was a lawyer but I didn't spend '652.43': sodomy I'm sorry not Lawrence against '654.2': Texas Bowers against Hardwick the case '655.94': about the Georgia sodomy statute which '657.77': was ultimately overruled by the Supreme '659.24': Court later in Lawrence against Texas '66.689': much time with him I actually decided to '661.19': and so there was a there was a little '663.29': bit of tension between justice Blackmun '665.18': and justice white because they were on '667.279': opposite sides of this two cases the '670.97': next justice down was justice Marshall '673.87': and by the time I got to the Supreme '676.82': Court he was I think he was he was quite '68.97': become a lawyer because when I was a '680.54': old I mean there were five of the '682.339': justices were over 75 the year I was '684.38': there he was quite old he wasn't in the '686.54': best of health and so he moved very '689.779': slowly and I think he was kind of angry '692.6': and alienated by then quite a bit from '694.79': the court but occasionally if he stopped '697.94': by his chambers in the afternoon he '699.68': would be in a storytelling mood and he '701.27': would just he was a marvellous '702.83': storyteller so you tell stories about '704.39': his time in practice I think you know I '707.3': think he was one of the obviously one of '71.64': junior in high school over that summer I '710.72': the most formative lawyers of the 20th '712.73': century but I think he's one of those '715.1': people if you were writing his biography '716.6': most of the good stuff happened before '718.76': he got to the Supreme Court as opposed '720.74': to some of the justices for whom the '722.75': Supreme Court really was the pinnacle of '724.85': their achievement '726.65': then there was just a splatter then came '733.85': justice Powell justice Powell had been '737.21': sick the year before and had been out '738.86': for quite some time and is still a '74.43': read simple justice which is a book by '741.35': little frail when I got there but you '743.69': know and kind of extraordinarily '745.48': gentlemanly one of the clerk's my year '748.78': had a serious had a serious medical '752.71': issue and justice justice Powell sent '756.92': flowers to the clerk afterwards you know '759.89': just the charming man um he switched his '76.38': Richard Kluger about the litigation that '765.05': vote in one of the biggest cases my year '766.85': Bowers against Hardwick and I think '769.01': justice Blackmun was convinced the chief '772.31': had lobbied him very hard on that case '774.88': he was the swing vote when I was there '777.35': and so a lot of issues so there was a '78.689': led up to Brown against Board of '780.11': lot of concentration on him after him '783.41': came justice Stevens '786.74': oh no justice rehnquist came and then '789.08': just as soon as it justice rehnquist '790.91': you know when he was an Associate '792.44': Justice I think was a little bit looser '795.83': than he was when he was chief justice '798.28': although the interesting thing for me is '8.28': today you had probably the largest crowd '80.13': Education and I decided I wanted to be a '800.63': when I went back to visit justice '802.43': blackmun after justice rehnquist had '805.7': taken over and became chief justice '807.02': rehnquist everybody loved him as chief '809.09': justice he's thought to be extremely '811.19': fair and balanced and straightforward in '813.74': a way that I think the liberal justices '815.48': had not felt about just as Chief Justice '818.54': burger but when I was there he was still '821.27': a relatively junior justice he was quite '823.37': often in dissent much more so than when '827.39': he became chief justice but very '829.79': friendly very casual his clerks were out '83.759': civil rights lawyer and work for the '832.73': of the building by 6 p.m. '835.27': midnight then after him came justice '838.0': Stevens who was exactly the same you '84.84': n-double-a-cp Legal Defense Fund so that '841.39': know interestingly quirky and always in '846.04': a bowtie he only had two clerks the '848.53': other justices all had four and there's '852.01': very much kind of his own his own person '854.92': and then came justice O'Connor who was '857.02': very junior obviously when I was there '858.61': she was in her I guess her fourth or '859.84': fifth term on the court and you know '864.18': extremely personable she ran a exercise '868.14': class for all the female clerks at 8:00 '87.96': book inspired me to become a lawyer 'no '871.45': a.m. and we were invited to go to it but '873.28': unfortunately justice Blackmun had '874.96': breakfast with all of his clerks at 8:00 '876.67': a.m. so I think we'd managed to get to '878.56': the exercise class two or three days '880.12': when he was out of town but other than '881.68': that we didn't go justice blackmun wrote '889.9': to me one of the more interesting '892.29': decisions and oh honey school yeah do '897.31': you guys ever have any reason to talk '898.81': about that well yes so I think it would '902.65': have been justice Blackmun's it might '907.48': have been his 80th birthday but it was '909.01': one of his big birthdays we're having a '91.32': snow there's a one discussion in that '910.57': clerks reunion and as you know in flood '912.97': against Kuhn which is the best buy in '914.68': entrust case there's this kind of '917.89': passage at the beginning of it that's a '919.84': list of famous baseball players and it '922.0': goes on and on and apparently if he '923.5': started out with about ten of them then '925.27': various people around the building would '926.53': suggest people and then somebody said '927.94': well but if you're going to include you '929.74': know if you're going to include tinker's '931.63': you have to include Evers own occlude '934.0': Evers you have to include chances so '935.2': they just that list kind of expanded and '938.41': expanded and there was a story in the '94.259': book about justice jackson and his then '940.66': Brethren that right after the opinion '944.89': came down somebody said to him how could '947.44': you not include Jimmie Foxx and he said '949.72': Jimmie Foxx was '952.24': and the president no he's not and the '954.77': Justice went back and looked at the list '956.36': and sure enough Jimmie Foxx is not on '957.71': the list and the line in the brethren is '960.77': something like and justice Biden said '962.09': I'll never forgive myself so for his for '965.33': his um for his 80th birthday I think it '968.66': was his 80th we decided we were going to '970.82': get him one of Jimmy Fox's bags and we '973.85': looked into it and we could not find one '975.83': but it turns out that Hilary Jim Bradley '978.05': I think that's what the Louisville '979.22': Slugger company's name is they keep the '98.189': law clerk William Rehnquist and the '981.35': measurements of every player on file for '984.23': their backs and so we went to them and '986.15': we had them replicate one of Jimmy Fox's '990.41': bats and we had it mounted on a plaque '992.57': and on the bottom it just said I will '994.88': never forgive myself '996.32': hav and we gave it to him the clerk saw '999.32': gave it to him for his his his birthday

/data/video_data.parquet/447/447259/7QD30-4wqZw/360p_1260.mp4

Pam Karlan (2012) interview

On Aug. 22, 2012, the Robert H. Jackson Center hosted Prof. Pam Karlan. She was the annual Robert H. Jackson lecturer at Chautauqua Institution. The interview was conducted by Greg Peterson and covered her career, reflections on her mentor Justice Harry Blackmun and legacy of Robert H. Jackson. For further information, see www.roberthjackson.org.

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'0.299': thank you for coming by the way this is '10.889': we've ever had for a Robert Jackson '1003.58': I saw it actually posted in his chambers '1007.9': the day he died after his funeral we all '101.39': famous or now infamous memorandum from '1010.36': went back to the chambers to hang out '1011.74': and there was the bat which I think was '1014.05': several people asked for it but I think '1016.24': it was given to the Library of Congress '1017.62': and the other thing about baseball that '1019.45': I is he had been a friend of the '1021.49': Griffiths who owned the then the '1024.459': Minneapolis Millers later the twins and '1027.97': so we would talk about baseball a lot it '1030.16': at breakfast and one day in the '1036.31': afternoon he I was in the upstairs '1038.8': chambers and I got a phone call used to '104.579': justice to justice Jackson from justice '1040.12': come down the Justice has somebody he '1042.52': wants you to meet and this group called '1044.35': the email verbum society was having its '1046.51': reunion in Washington I guess there's a '1048.13': Cubs thing and so there were these three '1053.5': guys and like bad fitting sports coats '1055.36': in his office and he introduced them to '1058.0': me and two of them I don't remember the '1059.14': name is because I'm not a Cubs fan at '1061.24': all but the last one was Andy Pafko who '1063.52': had been a Dodger as well '1065.96': at a nice conversation when afternoon '1068.299': with Andy Pafko '107.909': Rehnquist as you went through that '1070.789': and the last baseball thing I'll tell '1072.289': you is when justice blackmun retired '1074.539': from the Supreme Court I was asked to do '1076.639': one of the tributes for him in the '1078.379': Harvard Law Review and one of the things '1082.549': I talked about in the in the tribute was '1089.33': this article that been written called '1091.519': your law baseball quiz I think I told '1093.2': you about this last night where they '1094.34': compare different justices to different '1097.96': famous baseball players and I said that '110.13': clipper book in you and you've read '1100.85': you know so I tell the story of you know '1102.47': Jackie Jenson is like Byron white '1104.509': because they were both better at '1105.499': football and then I say you know and '1108.59': they compared the guy to this compared '111.93': about the activities of Thurgood '1110.769': Felix Frankfurter do among other things '1112.909': Wayne Terwilliger and I and I and then '1115.46': the art of I just set up foot and I said '1116.99': who is Wayne Terwilliger and so and then '1121.279': ultimately I said that if I had to pick '1122.99': somebody for justice blackmun to be like '1124.94': I had thought originally about Bobby '1126.529': Brown because justice like they wanted '1128.6': to be a doctor just like Bobby Brown '113.909': Marshall and William Coleman and the '1130.129': became a doctor and that I thought of '1132.32': you know a couple of other people like '1134.299': that you know Charlie Gehringer because '1136.549': it was a little tiny you know little '1141.32': tiny second baseman and you know a great '1143.529': fielder but not not a big batter and '1146.72': ultimately I came out with Dave Winfield '1148.58': which people might not have guessed '1149.779': because both of them came from st. Paul '1151.759': and made something of themselves both of '1153.86': them played the game long after many of '1155.809': their contemporaries had retired and '1157.279': both of them owed their start to a '1159.44': convicted but later pardoned Watergate '1161.629': felon to a later I'm sorry to a later '1164.809': pardoned Watergate felon because '1168.1': Blackman got his seat on the Supreme '1169.82': Court from Nixon and '117.21': whole cadre of people who were working '1172.94': George Steinbrenner's the person who '1174.68': gave Dave Winfield his biggest contract '1177.25': and so when I know sir yes so I read '1179.72': this and I wouldn't you know and the '1181.34': next time I visited the Justice that '1182.75': Justice said oh I really liked your your '1185.54': tribute a lot but come with me and he '1187.4': led me down the hall into a storeroom he '119.79': on the case did that inspire you to the '1190.67': was bending down at the Thurgood '1191.81': Marshall Center and he pulled out a copy '1193.82': of the baseball encyclopedia and he said '1197.09': this is Wayne Terwilliger and took me to '12.63': lecture and certainly the largest to '1200.45': the page twig I'd never heard of him and '1204.98': I'm a baseball fan and I'd never heard '1206.92': okay yeah I think until a few years ago '1209.33': still in baseball as a coach didn't even '1212.99': talk about Roe versus Wade ooh yes '1214.58': yeah um so the first time you talked '1216.95': about Roe vs. Wade is when I went to '1218.51': interview with him he had a justice '1221.48': blackmun would have been a tax lawyer '1223.1': before he was then counsel at the Mayo '1224.99': Clinic and he had exactly the habits you '1227.63': would expect from somebody who'd been a '1228.86': very good tax it's like incredibly '123.99': extent that you could find that that's a '1230.48': meticulous and precise and so when he '1232.34': interviewed people he had this long list '1234.32': of questions written out and he asked '1236.63': you the questions they wrote down the '1237.74': answers in pencil and towards the end of '1240.47': the interview he said now I want to ask '1242.54': you a question and I want you to think '1244.25': about this very carefully '1249.509': now I've written an opinion that's a '1252.239': little bit controversial and some people '1254.759': find that the kind of opinion that they '1257.549': have trouble with and you need to think '126.03': lineage that you could have '1260.549': about whether you would be comfortable '1261.809': working for me '1263.009': given the opinion and I'm sort of '1264.749': racking my brain to think like what '1266.249': opinion is he talking about '1268.799': and he said you may have heard of it and '127.74': yeah well I you know I decided I wanted '1271.049': now I'm thinking okay what is he gonna '1272.489': say '1272.909': he said it's called Roe against Wade and '1275.19': you know I'm a little bit of a kind of '1277.799': smartass sometimes and all I could think '1279.539': is just don't say oh my god you're that '1281.399': Harry Blackmun you're kidding but he '1284.519': actually had had a clerk apparently '1286.409': several years before who had in the '1288.119': middle of the year had a religious '1290.489': revelation that Roe was wrong and so '1295.139': that was the first time that I had a '1296.58': conversation then we had two abortion '1299.1': cases my year at the Supreme Court and '130.24': to work for the n-double-a-cp Legal '1300.96': it's actually the kind of high watermark '1303.359': of abortion rights at the Supreme Court '1305.07': was one of those cases the kids called '1306.45': Thornburg against American College of '1308.039': Obstetricians and Gynaecologists which '131.89': Defense Fund which is the organization '1310.649': the Justice wrote and so we had a fair '1313.859': number of conversations about abortion '1316.259': and he was convinced that you know that '1318.659': was also the first time that there was '1319.98': five to four who done a poll the kind of '1322.85': central premise of row because the Chief '1325.289': Justice which side so he talked about a '1327.419': lot then and then as you probably know '133.57': that bill Coleman and Charlie black and '1330.389': he used to teach at the Aspen Institute '1332.159': in the summer a justice and society '1335.039': class and he spent a day of that talking '1337.889': about the decision process leading up to '1339.929': Roe and I was there '1342.74': what do you say well he thought I mean '1345.87': it's interesting I think although he '1348.12': wouldn't I think he wouldn't put it '1350.309': quite this way his thoughts about ro '1352.02': evolved somewhat over time this when he '1355.29': started on the case his major you know '1358.95': the major focus for him was the practice '136.87': Lou and Thurgood Marshall and '1362.34': of medicine because he had come out of '1363.99': being counsel at the Mayo Clinic and he '1365.91': took very seriously they did it this was '1367.83': a medical procedure and therefore it was '1370.08': up to women in consultation with their '1372.78': doctors to make this decision in the way '1375.179': that would be true of all other medical '1376.919': procedures I think over time he came to '1379.049': see ro as equally about women's autonomy '138.64': Jack Greenberg were all part of and in '1383.76': that it wasn't mostly about medical '1386.07': autonomy it was about women's autonomy '1388.62': by the time I got there I think he was '1390.299': thinking about it and much those two '1392.79': things to have more much more in '1394.41': equipoise in being important to him but '1397.41': he just thought it was not the kind of '1398.91': decision that should be made '14.25': stay around well excellent yeah your '1400.4': categorically by the state as opposed to '1402.75': by individuals given the circumstances '1405.33': they found themselves in a gym ropes '1408.5': publicly switched no I think I think she '141.4': fact that's what I did do when I was in '1413.07': had said by then that she regretted '1414.84': having had the abortion but it wasn't '1416.85': until maybe about five years ago there '1419.22': so that she filed a sort of coram nobis '1420.75': training in Roe overturned if you had '1427.53': this pause and Sarah Gregg I've been in '143.11': law school I worked there for each of '1430.59': violence constitutional law business for '1432.44': since eighties and you had to pick kind '1436.5': of the five seminal cases to teach a '1439.98': master's class '144.73': the summers I was in law school '1444.52': five cases since the 1980s startup '1448.0': America okay '1449.26': doing a little baseline yeah was your '1451.35': people so if I had to pick the cases '1455.71': since I started since I started well '146.2': and then I was a staff lawyer there for '1462.4': you'd have to teach District of Columbia '1467.71': against Heller the Second Amendment case '1470.08': in part because it's just it's like a '1472.42': kind of kaleidoscope of all the '1474.28': different methods of constitutional '1475.96': interpretation it's got a little bit of '1477.46': originalism a little bit of textualism '1479.32': some pragmatic consequentialism a little '148.03': several years before I went into '1482.41': bit of the structure a constitutional '1484.179': structural reasoning and so although I '1486.49': know I'm not sure that the opinion has '1488.2': big legs that is I'm not sure that '149.44': teaching and I still continued to work '1490.03': there's going to be a lot of laws struck '1491.559': down that would have otherwise been '1492.73': upheld or like it's it's a it's a real '1496.45': window into contemporary constitutional '1499.12': law so I definitely teach that I think I '1503.53': would teach Lawrence against Texas '1506.62': because for substantive due process '1508.929': cases it's one of the most interesting '151.36': with them on cases so I'd like to think '1512.2': ones and you can see echoes of all of '1516.28': the sort of different prior cases in it '1519.87': I would definitely teach the Affordable '1525.49': Care Act case because it reviews huge '1529.48': amounts of constitutional law up till '1531.309': then and it sets down some markers for '1534.67': the future '1539.2': I'd have to teach one of the race cases '154.45': of myself as being part of the extended '1542.27': on the question of which race case to '1544.34': teach you know on the one hand Gruder is '1548.09': very important but I think maybe parents '1550.309': involved against Seattle School District '1552.86': number one is more significant because '1555.64': there's more of a discussion of what the '1557.809': meaning of brown is for modern times and '156.94': Legal Defense Fund family did you ever '1562.159': it's more of a contemporary court and '1567.01': then I mean there are a lot of different '1570.409': candidates because it depends on what '1572.48': you're trying to do in the master class '1573.799': that is if you're trying to say which '1575.09': cases have had the most impact on '1577.99': everyday people's lives that's going to '1580.279': be a different question than if you're '1581.75': sort of saying which cases give you the '1583.669': greatest insight into kind of how the '1587.39': justices think about things '159.7': catch up with any of those oh oh yes '1592.56': today if the presentation you gave '1595.58': wonderful wonderful conversation with '1603.56': Jackson and currency current issues '1609.48': which is of course the Jackson mission '1613.05': here is to create the relevancy of '1614.73': justice Jackson today and you did a '1617.82': phenomenal job of doing just that '1620.81': well they didn't mention one of the ones '1623.19': where he's been most influential because '1624.54': it was a lay audience which is the steel '1627.57': seizure drill the kind of three-part '1630.42': framework for determining the '1632.7': relationship between the executive power '1634.59': and legislative power and '1637.55': constitutionality but I thought to try '1640.47': and do that with a lay audience would be '1642.27': almost impossible two years ago John '1645.24': created an event at Albany Law School '1647.73': and Phil Neil said if there's anything '165.64': absolutely so I knew Jack greenberg '1655.08': one thing it probably needs to be done '1656.49': in law school so we got to teach Jackson '1659.13': and specifically his ability to write '1661.5': this style and also taking it to one '1664.35': step further which is what you did today '1666.74': is it realistic well I mean I could see '167.92': quite well I knew bill Coleman who was '1672.21': teaching a seminar it would be a great '1674.61': seminar to teach one justice through a '1678.23': range of cases I mean I've often so I '1682.23': have a friend who's also a law professor '1683.88': who once suggested you should teach a '1685.23': course called some like 342 us and the '1688.32': case book for the course would simply be '1689.85': that volume of us reports because I find '1692.76': that you can often see really '1694.98': interesting relationships between cases '1697.35': that don't look like they're about the '1699.27': same thing but that are decided around '170.17': chairman of the board of the Legal '1702.18': the same time so I think it'd be '1703.65': wonderful to have a course that focused '1705.72': on a single justice I mean you'd want it '1707.94': obviously to be an advanced con law '1709.74': class or an advanced law class more '171.52': Defense Fund by the time I was a lawyer '1712.2': general '1712.68': so that it might also involve statutory '1714.87': interpretation as well as constitutional '1716.55': interpretation but I think the the '1720.21': chance to read the unaccepted decisions '1723.09': of in particular justice you actually '1724.86': get a sense of what a an opinion looks '1726.75': like as opposed to what's in the case '1728.64': book which is a little bit of fact and '173.98': there quite well I met Thurgood Marshall '1730.62': then boom into the money language yeah '1733.95': it'd be great thing to do you can't '1738.39': there's so much so far because you look '1742.38': in the crystal ball for the next five '1743.7': years the pen Carlin is there books you '1747.18': want to write are their positions you'd '1749.52': like to get is there the ambitions of '1753.27': panco oh I well one of my ambitions is '1756.45': to be a better teacher you know I love '1759.9': teaching I love with the clinical '176.71': when I was clerking at the Supreme Court '1761.88': teaching and the regular teaching a '1763.47': little bit of it is also you know after '1766.29': you've done any particular thing for a '1768.09': while you're always looking for a little '1769.29': something new to do so for a while I was '1773.07': kind of some training almost entirely on '1774.39': election law stuff and now for the last '1776.64': six or seven years my primary focus has '1779.13': been this clinic about litigates cases '1780.9': at the Supreme Court so I was thinking '1782.85': like maybe it's around time to figure '1785.25': out what the next thing is I don't have '1787.62': you know ambitions to change my life '1789.9': permanently inside in some way '179.59': I knew Constance Baker motley from when '1792.85': I'd like to spend some time working at '1795.22': the Department of Justice I think you '1797.14': know the right job came along at the '1798.61': right time it's always one of these '18.9': first time to Chautauqua what's your '1800.2': questions of timing and job and like I '1802.03': mean I was offered the job that I would '1804.1': now like to have I was offered in the '1806.89': Clinton administration but it was the '1808.63': wrong time and I was changing schools at '1811.84': that point and I'm single you know I '1815.11': didn't want to take two years it's kind '1817.87': of a two-year detour but as you get '182.32': I was working at the district court in '1820.78': older it seems less of a detour and more '1822.52': of an opportunity just to serve and then '1824.62': go back to being just a country law '1828.46': professor '183.91': New York she was the chief judge when I '1831.01': okay so President Obama gets reelected '1835.83': Ruth Bader Ginsburg resides where the '1840.929': Kennedys well to figure out who the top '1846.37': three candidates are you would need to '1847.78': know what year she resigns in and what '1849.73': the Senate looks like because if the '185.29': was clerking on that Court and Bob '1852.429': Democrats have control of the Senate '1854.08': you'll see a different nominee than if '1856.48': the Republicans have control of the '1858.22': Senate some of it depends on you know '1864.07': people people can kind of shoot out of '1866.11': nowhere in various ways you know Elena '1870.88': Kagan was the first justice in probably '1874.95': what twenty years to be since Justice '1879.52': Rehnquist was the and justice Powell was '188.11': Carter I knew just from you know hanging '1881.5': the first justice to go on the Supreme '1883.0': Court not coming out of an appellate '1885.58': court I mean justice O'Connor was a '1887.41': state court and to be really accurate '1890.83': justice Souter was mostly a state court '1892.809': judge he had only been on the first '1896.23': circuit for less than a year but that's '1898.12': a different kind of pick and so be '1900.22': interesting to see whether the president '1901.72': decides to think about somebody's held '1904.059': elective office I mean that was one of '1905.65': the points I was making in my lecture '1907.99': today '1908.95': institution is that we don't have any '1912.59': balance Precourt with real nitty gritty '1916.6': running for office experience so I could '1919.789': see something like Jennifer Granholm or '192.1': around with civil rights lawyers so I '1923.169': lisa madigan who's Attorney General of '1926.12': Illinois or camel Harris is Attorney '1929.809': General of California you know the '193.99': think of all of the people who were '1934.22': president hasn't put a lot of women on '1937.64': the federal courts of appeals yet so if '1940.58': that's where you're looking you know '1942.52': it's not clear that there's a deep bench '1945.529': of Democrats there if it's a Republican '1949.399': kind if it's a Republican Senate he's '1951.23': going to have to move considerably '1953.36': towards the middle it's pretty hard to '1956.57': know Mitt Romney Jordan is nice up '196.24': still alive who had argued in brown by '1964.97': that's that's I was a stock hold of '1969.289': American Motors Corporation just once '1970.97': you know that South Fargo and Detroit '1973.88': Tigers friends put that on respected '1976.85': Mitt Romney was fully Republican and '1979.58': he's got the choice there two or three '1982.57': candidates that jump out to use logical '1985.61': yeah so I I would think for him the kind '1989.27': of obvious choices would be Brett '199.48': the time I was an adult I've met I get I '1991.97': Kavanaugh who's on the DC circuit very '1994.159': young very conservative Jeff Sutton from '1996.62': the sixth circuit young and conservative '1999.169': ents smart although Jeff probably didn't '2.04': Gregor you're us your startup has been '20.34': impressions of all this well I've been '2001.27': do himself a big favor when he upheld '2004.75': the Affordable Care Act and then I would '2009.34': think Paul Clemente who's the Solicitor '201.58': managed to meet them all I mean all of '2011.26': General would be '2013.419': in the Bush administration be a kind of '2015.399': obvious candidate those straight me as '2018.999': the people most likely in a Romney '2021.969': administration I'm smiling because dolly '2024.309': lives would answered the same question '2026.979': in the same way well '203.17': the people argued on the right side yeah '2030.659': paranoid paranoid liberal she had a '2033.009': couple of a couple of mail names to the '2035.229': democratic posted oh yeah I mean III I '2037.779': convinced I mean '2039.249': Judge garland would be you know if it's '204.76': did you find that with that did you find '2041.559': in the next year or two '2042.879': who's on the DC Circuit would be a kind '2045.669': of obvious candidate you know now that '2050.649': Paul Watford has gotten onto the ninth '2053.649': circuit '2054.429': he might be an extremely attractive '2056.71': candidate most important question she's '2063.579': baseball became its antitrust exemption '2066.149': well you know I'm a big bill James fan '2068.679': and Bill James has a discussion of this '2070.839': where he says that if you got rid of the '2072.519': antitrust exemption what you might start '2074.74': to see is a kind of proliferation of a '2077.829': third or fourth majorly don't was coming '2081.069': out of minor league teams I'm not sure '2086.589': what function the antitrust exemption '2089.609': really performs today given that there's '2092.139': now an agreement between the Players '2094.48': Association and the teams right you know '2098.47': and and a huge percentage ever since '210.61': that you went to law school and were '2101.349': free agency a huge percentage of the '2104.769': revenue has moved over to the players '2106.48': I'm not sure that the existing players '2108.43': would favor getting rid of me and I '2109.99': trust exemption such an anachronism yeah '2113.98': yeah but hard to see that it's actually '2116.92': having much effect on on the game itself '2119.4': and the real question is how you '2121.93': maintain competitive balance if you if '2124.569': you want to maintain the sport the real '2126.039': question is how to maintain competitive '2127.93': balance and without the antitrust '2129.22': exemption '213.37': there a lot of your classmates who found '2130.33': it might be harder easier Supreme Court '2133.72': Historical Society is celebrating the '2135.73': 40th anniversary of that decision and '2137.7': they have working with two podium '2144.82': individuals and a judge to sort of '2147.28': reenact the case and that simply take it '2149.5': through everything for me there I think '2152.35': folks do it all as far as any guidance '2154.15': no no I know flood against tuna was way '2157.21': before my time '2157.96': yeah but thank you I know I know but '216.67': that social part of the practice of law '2161.5': every time I say something critical '2163.75': about the Chief Justice and being an '2165.28': umpire diminish my chances of being '2168.43': invited to the flood against Hugh '2170.11': celebration well tell me about that well '2177.79': you wrote that did you get feedback did '2179.41': you like no not well the Chief Justice '2182.2': doesn't blow back there did somebody I '2184.39': mean if there's no no I mean I'd if '2188.02': there I was at an event where I talked '219.81': important well I think you know I have a '2190.66': about this and this may be kind of music '2196.03': so has an event where I talked about '2197.26': this a little bit of know you know but '2199.0': Chief Justice and the umpire analogy '22.41': hearing about Chautauqua for years when '2201.43': like and efforts Justice Thomas was had '2204.22': been there and he came up to me and said '2206.5': hey give you a little bicep a nice oh '2208.42': yeah sure mr. justice he said don't hold '2210.22': back '2210.49': tell us what you really think have you '2212.56': got a stop being that you've got to stop '2214.09': being so reticent so no you know the '2218.98': Chief Justice isn't just as a big boy '2220.96': yeah '2223.22': by the way Jen talked about Thursday '2226.01': I've been in social situations where '2227.48': he's been there in by far and away when '2229.16': all the justices are there and it '223.36': lot of friends from Moscow who have done '2230.78': Supreme Court Oracle society man well '2232.46': he's very outgoing you can get access '2234.619': immediate access to everybody but him '2236.27': because time it's only because you've '2238.25': got 40 50 people hanging on I mean it's '2240.74': just doctors you can't get them no he's '2243.14': got more social skills in one-on-one '2245.54': than the average surgeries are just '2247.13': essentially he slapped more people on '2249.829': the back down and all the reason of the '225.13': public interest practice or either for '2254.42': current justices and you've written '2257.69': about them what's what's your sense of '2264.73': Roberts decision you know how do you '2268.19': read that in the healthcare act I don't '227.68': private groups like the Legal Defense '2272.39': wanna say Obamacare because you don't '2273.5': want me to say about that well wrong '2278.06': news head I mean I don't want to crawl '2280.91': into his head I I was not surprised at '2284.27': all by most of what he wrote that is I '2286.28': was not surprised that he upheld it on '2287.839': taxing power grounds and I was not '229.45': Fund or for the government so yeah I '2291.89': surprised that he thought there was a '2294.68': spending Clause problem with Medicaid '2296.96': because those seem to me to be pretty '2299.93': predictable what did surprise me is how '2302.3': much he went out of his way to decide '2305.21': the Commerce Clause issue when it wasn't '2306.98': necessary to the bottom line because as '2308.9': you know he spent a lot of time talking '2310.849': about how we should did not decide the '2313.52': things we don't need to decide and then '2315.829': in this case he went out of his way to '2317.329': do it and he's done that before that is '2320.27': his opinion for the court in the new '2323.51': Mudd no case which is a case about '2325.9': constitutionality of section 5 of the '2327.61': Voting Rights Act the court ultimately '2329.08': decided it on very narrow statutory '233.47': think a fair number of the people I knew '2331.54': grounds but along the way he said a lot '2334.03': of nasty things about the Voting Rights '2335.5': Act um you know he was a clerk for '2341.5': Justice Rehnquist and observed Justice '2343.99': Rehnquist's Supreme Court career he is a '2346.72': huge fan of Chief Justice John Marshall '2349.72': and has thought a lot about John '235.81': in law school were very committed to '2351.34': Marshalls career and both of those men '2353.83': both Marshall and Rehnquist were '2357.19': extremely strategic and kept their eye '2360.91': on the long view and that's true for the '2364.93': Chief Justice as well '2365.92': the man is 57 years old he does not need '2369.67': to take all the cards off the table in '237.25': doing civil rights work and have done it '2371.62': one hand and I think his decision his '2376.45': opinion in the affordable care act case '2379.33': was an extremely strategic decision so '2384.01': that somebody and all sides could have '2386.32': think once they read it they read it '2389.25': fine glass they can get something out of '2392.05': that well he it's designed to make him '2394.99': appear statesman like right which is he '2399.55': sort of says look you there's this '24.029': I was growing up because my grandmother '240.04': in one form or another '2401.74': passage towards the beginning of his '2403.72': opinion where he says it's not our job '2405.73': to save the people from the consequences '2408.07': of their political decisions our job is '241.27': their careers constitutional law of all '2410.08': to apply the law well what is that '2412.42': supposed to mean '2413.35': and not our job to save the people from '2415.45': their consequences their political '2416.65': decisions in other words saying if you '2418.21': pass a stupid statute like this don't '2419.98': expect us to fix it so I think it was '2424.48': designed to make him appear '2428.01': non-political right he's he's turning '2432.19': his back on the Tea Party agenda '2434.289': case while also allowing him to say a '2437.739': bunch of nasty things about the kind of '2442.479': liberal welfare state and I think he '2446.819': gained a fair amount of capital from the '2449.38': decision there that will stand him in '245.74': that was was at the area which obviously '2451.329': good stead when he spends it on issues '2453.039': he cares more about I don't think the '2454.689': Commerce Clause is the biggest issue for '2457.059': the chief justice that he cares about in '2458.829': constitutional law but certainly don't '2461.529': think the taxing powers Robert Jackson '2465.279': Center you're here today the thrilled '2467.199': you are here today and we are here to '2469.749': advance the legacy of Justice Robert '2472.029': Jackson I had Michael Berenbaum whom you '2474.429': met sitting at seat just yesterday '2476.559': asking him you know if he had some '2478.599': advice for us for only 11 years old or '248.85': established a reputation well the kind '2481.119': work-in-progress as to areas of which to '2484.209': find ourselves and if you had to give us '2487.509': some guidance panel well if you think '2490.9': about justice Jackson right what are the '2492.999': kind of things he's most known for the '2496.539': Nuremberg trials which obviously have '2499.239': continued bearing on the world today '25.56': and her first cousin came every summer '2502.839': because of '2505.44': the rise of international war crimes '2508.98': tribunals and Human Rights Tribunal '2511.17': sunlight I mean obviously that's one '2513.78': area where you know he serves as a kind '2516.869': of focal point for the United States on '2518.819': that and then the other thing I think is '252.85': of irony about that is when I got to law '2523.05': legal writing to go back to the point '2526.2': you were making about Phil Neal earlier '2527.819': that justice Jackson was such a clear '2531.0': writer and thinker I think it'd just be '2534.42': really useful to think about how do you '2538.55': perpetuate that legacy I mean you know '2542.46': you can read a Robert Jackson opinion '2544.319': today and it speaks to you whereas you '2547.5': know you read some of the opinions from '2548.97': the if you know from the Warren burger '255.31': school my first semester in law school I '2554.42': Rehnquist and Roberts courts and they're '2557.88': just impenetrable '2561.35': or they're impenetrable sort of masses '2565.49': of soupy mass with a couple of quotable '2568.25': lines thrown and the thing that's '257.26': was assigned to constitutional law with '2570.32': interesting you know and made it a '2572.06': little hard when I was preparing my talk '2573.92': for today for the Jackson centers '2575.18': sometimes the best Jackson quotations '2577.55': are two or three paragraphs long because '2581.09': he's setting up an argument and then '2583.66': explaining the argument as he goes '2585.71': through it '2586.22': I mean he's not he isn't even though '2587.96': he's got some of the greatest one-liners '2589.64': in Supreme Court history that's not '259.72': Robert Bork so I'm not sure that what I '2591.47': actually what makes him the greatest '2593.0': writer in some ways and so getting '2595.49': people to focus more on legal writing '2597.94': would you do that boy you know that's an '2601.73': interesting question I mean I think it'd '2606.77': be great to have to have you know have '2610.49': something that gives people a sense of '2612.11': how good his writing was you know some '2617.39': of it depends on which audiences you're '2618.86': aiming at I mean I think having a legal '2621.71': writing thing where you bring in judges '2623.48': and talk to them about legal write it I '2625.61': mean especially like state Supreme Court '2627.74': justice is often don't get much training '263.65': learned in first-year constitutional law '2630.5': and how to write an opinion or how to '2631.88': think about it '2637.569': what hurry black would mean to pimp oh '2641.259': he was he was everything he was just '2644.539': such a great boss and he and he was so '2648.47': meticulous I mean one of the things that '2650.269': he really taught me was attention to '2652.549': detail because he was very much a detail '2654.799': man and just an extremely brave man I '2658.67': mean the year before I clerked for the '266.49': stuck I I knew I disagreed with him and '2660.65': summer that I clerk from your that that '2663.529': previous spring you know when he came '2665.45': back to start eating breakfast with us '2667.94': we had a US Marshal and a Supreme Court '2669.71': police officer with us every morning at '2672.38': breakfast and the reason for that is '2673.64': that he had been shot out the year '2675.769': before he got up to go to the kitchen '2678.74': and a bullet came through the window and '2680.66': landed in the chair it did sitting in '2682.97': mmm one of the things he then ended up '2685.039': with it was a huge kerfuffle with his '2687.829': insurance company because there was a '2689.329': pair of upholstered chairs and the FBI '2692.21': came and like cut out a huge chunk of '2694.609': the chair that the bullet had gone into '2696.289': and he wanted to have both the chairs '2697.97': recovered and the insurance company said '2699.74': well there's nothing wrong with the '270.85': I didn't really know why I disagreed '2700.7': other chair so they've been over the '2703.339': back and forth over the chairs but you '2706.339': know he he was very principled he stuck '2709.099': to his principles and he was '2712.869': unbelievably hard-working I mean however '2715.13': hard I work I never work as hard as he '2717.38': worked '2719.52': you're the eighth speaker in Robert H '272.92': with him because I think for me the '2721.95': ejection lectureship and you've raised '2724.65': the bar very very high today '2728.16': whoo so how lucky that you're doing this '2730.26': that Mambo thing and everybody can get '2732.6': under it more easily now well that's who '2735.69': would you recommend to Jen and I next '2738.6': year '2738.99': oh so thinking about like we've had '274.87': difficulty in the way he taught us he '2743.49': solicitor jabber solicit think about '2745.74': like who is it that I love to listen to '2748.53': when they talk about law that you '2752.04': haven't had because you've had Paul '2753.78': Clemente company yeah and you've had '2755.82': Dahlia who I love listening to you know '276.46': was very fast very quick very witty and '2765.6': Bill Marshall is a really interesting '2767.66': guy - I find him just really interesting '2772.62': to listen to '2780.41': in terms of in terms of '2783.82': you know one person who'd be interesting '2785.89': to have because he's now off the bench '2787.66': and he's talking a lot more frankly '2790.21': about a lot of stuff is Vaughn Walker '2791.5': who was a federal district judge in '2793.51': California he's a really interesting '2795.43': speaker and obviously decide a huge '2797.62': number of important cases including the '2799.36': California marriage case I would think '28.92': and so I was excited to get a chance to '280.9': you're a first-year law student and so '2802.12': he'd be super interesting '2808.41': just kind of thinking '2816.84': you know my colleague Michael McConnell '2818.61': is a super interesting speaker on '282.58': even if you know you disagree with him '2821.13': virtually everything '2826.18': one person you know because I think you '2830.23': know who might be really interesting is '2831.46': sherrilyn Ifill he's a professor at the '2833.499': University of Maryland who has is '2837.49': writing right now about judicial '2839.38': confirmation hmm processes and she's an '284.05': it's hard to formulate what your '2843.069': unbelievably great and dynamic speaker '2846.42': so she might be a good person '2851.02': I should show you the clip of Dalia '2852.76': talking about you I love doll yeah I '2856.0': love dolly she's so into she wrote she '2859.48': wrote a piece this past year that was my '286.06': disagreements are and I think I didn't '2861.369': favorite piece of all time about '2863.17': corporate personhood it was about this '2865.27': little nothing burg case called that I '2867.28': think was FCC against AT&T it was a case '2869.68': about an exemption under the Freedom of '2872.829': Information Act for things that would '2876.849': interfere with the personal privacy of '2879.46': an individual and AT&T said well we '288.61': teach constitutional law until I've been '2882.79': should be able to protect ourselves here '2884.47': and that Court ultimately helped that '2887.2': they shouldn't and that Chief Justice '2888.579': makes some jokes about AT&T and not '2891.19': taking anything personally in this '2892.54': opinion but she wrote a description of '2894.7': the oral argument the case that was '2895.93': written completely as if 18t were a '2898.21': person and it's just it's just marvelous '290.38': teaching for quite some time in part '2901.98': question that is often asked oh no you '2904.809': know me you should definitely also think '2906.25': about his Walter Dellinger who is a '2908.17': great speaker and it was not on the '2912.22': court during the Robert Jackson use but '2913.96': was a Hugo black Clarke in the 1960s '2919.42': question that gets off in a spiral a '292.6': because I didn't want to have my '2921.76': radio guy is if you've had a chance to '2924.97': have dinner '2927.19': '- John Gemini anybody in history you can' '2933.01': choose three guests who did related '2937.24': somebody you're fine '2938.47': just extremely fascinating - really well '2942.24': that's it you know that's such a hard '2944.44': question cuz okay you want to have '2948.7': dinner with us somebody who will '2949.57': actually talk to you about that stuff as '295.63': students experience constitutional line '2951.79': opposed to somebody who won't talk about '2955.69': right so you might be really interested '2957.82': in knowing what somebody thinks but if '2959.98': they're very guarded then the dinner '2961.99': would be kind of painful so no no I know '2964.69': but I'm a law professor so I would '2966.82': really love to have dinner with Franklin '2969.04': Roosevelt I would really love to have '297.61': the way I had experienced it as the '2971.95': dinner with Franklin Roosevelt's and '2975.58': although I think I would have to like be '2978.16': extremely careful and sit at the other '2980.5': end of the table I'd actually love to '2982.15': have dinner with Lyndon Johnson as just '2984.64': reading the last of the following the '2986.83': Latin most recent in the bottoms of the '2988.0': Kara biography I'm just fascinated by '299.56': professor having a very strong point of '2990.94': him I just you know I'd love to and the '2997.12': other person I would love to have dinner '2998.74': with because I just love to know more '3001.11': about what made her who she was is '3003.42': Fannie Lou Hamer hmm I mean you know '3007.32': where did you get the kind of courage to '301.27': view that kind of overwhelmed whatever '3011.49': stick with it like '3016.35': this is an aside I recently interviewed '3018.9': Andrew Young and he talked they gave him '3022.14': a flash cards all the people who civil '3024.63': rights movement it was I had 20 minute '3027.27': stop that was all I had '3028.35': and I gave it to him as a baseball cards '3030.21': yeah just tell me who's left throws even '3033.21': further like oh yeah this is great '304.24': values you came into law school with so '3045.78': you are terrific and unfortunately '3051.32': looking forward to it I'm looking '3053.64': forward to what's the line about you '3055.71': know you can summarize every Jewish '3057.15': holiday in nine words they tried to kill '3059.1': us they didn't let see Cindy just texted '306.43': those tried to be very careful that I '3065.04': she's going to the restaurant '3066.63': I know we have there was she's tagging '3068.04': on two verses you got the word out right '3069.6': so was one of the partner we're gonna '3077.07': turn fishermen six okay perfect '308.14': teach my conservative students how to be '31.859': come up and when I arrived I was just '311.44': the best constitutional law lawyers they '313.24': can be as well as teaching students '315.28': whose views on the issues coincide more '3164.359': you '317.86': with mine of course finding yourself '3185.92': you '3209.74': you '323.71': from the United States Supreme Court day '326.44': one when you walked in there and well '3275.81': you '333.25': this is gonna sound odd but I actually '337.15': felt more comfortable arguing in the US '34.02': struck by how incredibly gorgeous '340.84': Supreme Court then I felt arguing in '342.88': several of the courts of appeals where '344.95': I've argued in part because I clerked at '3455.96': you '346.75': the court and so the building was '348.82': familiar to me the personnel on the '350.62': court were familiar to me you don't have '352.63': the problem when you go to the Supreme '354.01': Court that you can handle on courts of '355.36': appeals which is you don't know who your '356.71': panel is until you get there so you've '359.53': thought about you've briefed the case '36.8': Chautauqua is a combination of just '361.419': for the people you're actually gonna '362.47': argue in front of the thing that's '364.21': amazing about the argument is how fast '366.37': it goes '367.6': mean a my first argument I only had 10 '3696.23': you '370.99': minutes because I was splitting time '372.4': with the Solicitor General and I feel '375.82': like I didn't take a breath the whole '377.29': time I was up there it just pushed by me '381.0': but there's something totally '383.17': exhilarating I sometimes say to my '385.72': students that arguing in front of the '387.79': Supreme Court is the most fun you can '389.26': have in 30 minutes in public wearing '39.45': physical gorgeousness and total charm '391.54': your clothes standing up being all by '393.37': yourself doing nothing but talking and I '396.37': I continue to feel that although I have '398.89': to say that the current court is so much '402.4': more conservative than both the court I '404.59': clerked on and the court I started '407.02': practicing in front of that's it's a '409.12': little less fun to go up there today '410.59': because it's a little harder to win the '412.27': cases that I tend to be arguing I '419.11': clicked for justice baikman in October '42.469': you know the houses and the people '421.72': term 1985 so it was the last year that '424.21': Chief Justice burger was chief justice '433.32': sure so I'll do them in order of '437.14': seniority because when justice Blackmun '439.69': used to come back from the conference '442.21': where it's just the nine justices in the '444.16': room and nobody else he would read us '446.29': his notes and he always read them in the '448.75': order the justices went which is the '45.629': walking around and everything was just '450.4': order of seniority so Chief Justice '452.92': burger he looked like a chief justice he '456.91': really did he by the time I got there '460.75': justice Blackmun and he although they '462.28': had been friends growing up and justice '464.32': Blackmun had actually been the best man '466.45': at chief justice burgers wedding by the '469.09': time I got there they really weren't '470.08': speaking to each other so I think my '471.97': views of the chief are colored somewhat '473.92': by how justice Blackmun felt about him '477.88': but the chief was very into ceremony he '48.239': it's just been delightful I hope to come '482.14': was fairly conservative not super '488.59': imaginative '490.68': my first encounter with him was there '493.11': was a party at the beginning of the term '495.54': for all of the clerks and the justices '497.37': dining-room and he came up to me and he '499.86': looked at me and he had been talking to '502.83': justice rehnquist and he looked at me '504.33': and he said well there there certainly '506.16': are a lot of you here this year and my '509.49': first reaction is how does he know I'm '51.84': back no I'm the first lawyer in the '510.69': Jewish but he actually met women because '514.29': there were seven women and so I said I '516.66': realized that's what he meant and I said '520.02': well you know justice blackmun has three '521.52': female clerks this year and it was the '523.02': first time in justice I had three and '524.76': the chief justice to me said well I '526.77': guess he's going to need a lot of help '528.09': huh and I said no no we're gonna do all '532.95': the cooking and cleaning ourselves but '536.22': so my experience what the chief was '539.75': somewhat odd justice justice Brennan was '545.43': the senior associate justice at the time '547.68': and he was extremely gregarious and '550.59': outgoing so he would you know how I how '555.6': I he would say and he had that kind of '557.37': New Jersey accent the other thing he '559.02': taught me I think this is one of the '560.58': things I've never forgotten this you '562.2': taught me how if you have to shake a lot '564.12': of people's hands to shake hands with '565.65': them which is you extend your hand and '567.36': then you grab their elbow because then '569.61': if they squeeze your hand too hard you '571.2': can squeeze their elbow and they'll '573.36': release their grip and he told me he '574.98': learned that in politics he was very '579.45': gregarious he was he made an effort I '584.4': think and I think it was a strategic '586.29': effort in addition to just his natural '587.97': outgoing personality to get to know a '590.22': lot of the clerks in the building '591.54': because I think he felt that that helped '593.36': him to enlist them kind of on his side '597.27': in a way justice White was a leader '6.45': advanced here every but it was exciting '600.78': frankfurter type person '604.46': yeah I think in a way I think in a way '608.02': justice frankfurter I'm sorry justice '611.089': white was the second most senior '614.029': associate justice he had given up '617.3': playing basketball with the clerk's by '618.98': the time I was there apparently a couple '620.54': of years before a clerk who had been '622.19': just frustrated by the justices somewhat '624.86': over rough play had just cold-cocked him '626.57': during a game but he's still putted with '629.149': his clerks for money after every '63.03': family I mean my grandmother's brother '630.529': afternoon and it was interesting my year '635.57': at the courts the division among the '639.83': justices the thing that most seemed to '643.399': divide them was there were a couple of '645.86': abortion cases and Lawrence against '648.92': Texas which was a case about the Georgia '65.07': in law was a lawyer but I didn't spend '652.43': sodomy I'm sorry not Lawrence against '654.2': Texas Bowers against Hardwick the case '655.94': about the Georgia sodomy statute which '657.77': was ultimately overruled by the Supreme '659.24': Court later in Lawrence against Texas '66.689': much time with him I actually decided to '661.19': and so there was a there was a little '663.29': bit of tension between justice Blackmun '665.18': and justice white because they were on '667.279': opposite sides of this two cases the '670.97': next justice down was justice Marshall '673.87': and by the time I got to the Supreme '676.82': Court he was I think he was he was quite '68.97': become a lawyer because when I was a '680.54': old I mean there were five of the '682.339': justices were over 75 the year I was '684.38': there he was quite old he wasn't in the '686.54': best of health and so he moved very '689.779': slowly and I think he was kind of angry '692.6': and alienated by then quite a bit from '694.79': the court but occasionally if he stopped '697.94': by his chambers in the afternoon he '699.68': would be in a storytelling mood and he '701.27': would just he was a marvellous '702.83': storyteller so you tell stories about '704.39': his time in practice I think you know I '707.3': think he was one of the obviously one of '71.64': junior in high school over that summer I '710.72': the most formative lawyers of the 20th '712.73': century but I think he's one of those '715.1': people if you were writing his biography '716.6': most of the good stuff happened before '718.76': he got to the Supreme Court as opposed '720.74': to some of the justices for whom the '722.75': Supreme Court really was the pinnacle of '724.85': their achievement '726.65': then there was just a splatter then came '733.85': justice Powell justice Powell had been '737.21': sick the year before and had been out '738.86': for quite some time and is still a '74.43': read simple justice which is a book by '741.35': little frail when I got there but you '743.69': know and kind of extraordinarily '745.48': gentlemanly one of the clerk's my year '748.78': had a serious had a serious medical '752.71': issue and justice justice Powell sent '756.92': flowers to the clerk afterwards you know '759.89': just the charming man um he switched his '76.38': Richard Kluger about the litigation that '765.05': vote in one of the biggest cases my year '766.85': Bowers against Hardwick and I think '769.01': justice Blackmun was convinced the chief '772.31': had lobbied him very hard on that case '774.88': he was the swing vote when I was there '777.35': and so a lot of issues so there was a '78.689': led up to Brown against Board of '780.11': lot of concentration on him after him '783.41': came justice Stevens '786.74': oh no justice rehnquist came and then '789.08': just as soon as it justice rehnquist '790.91': you know when he was an Associate '792.44': Justice I think was a little bit looser '795.83': than he was when he was chief justice '798.28': although the interesting thing for me is '8.28': today you had probably the largest crowd '80.13': Education and I decided I wanted to be a '800.63': when I went back to visit justice '802.43': blackmun after justice rehnquist had '805.7': taken over and became chief justice '807.02': rehnquist everybody loved him as chief '809.09': justice he's thought to be extremely '811.19': fair and balanced and straightforward in '813.74': a way that I think the liberal justices '815.48': had not felt about just as Chief Justice '818.54': burger but when I was there he was still '821.27': a relatively junior justice he was quite '823.37': often in dissent much more so than when '827.39': he became chief justice but very '829.79': friendly very casual his clerks were out '83.759': civil rights lawyer and work for the '832.73': of the building by 6 p.m. '835.27': midnight then after him came justice '838.0': Stevens who was exactly the same you '84.84': n-double-a-cp Legal Defense Fund so that '841.39': know interestingly quirky and always in '846.04': a bowtie he only had two clerks the '848.53': other justices all had four and there's '852.01': very much kind of his own his own person '854.92': and then came justice O'Connor who was '857.02': very junior obviously when I was there '858.61': she was in her I guess her fourth or '859.84': fifth term on the court and you know '864.18': extremely personable she ran a exercise '868.14': class for all the female clerks at 8:00 '87.96': book inspired me to become a lawyer 'no '871.45': a.m. and we were invited to go to it but '873.28': unfortunately justice Blackmun had '874.96': breakfast with all of his clerks at 8:00 '876.67': a.m. so I think we'd managed to get to '878.56': the exercise class two or three days '880.12': when he was out of town but other than '881.68': that we didn't go justice blackmun wrote '889.9': to me one of the more interesting '892.29': decisions and oh honey school yeah do '897.31': you guys ever have any reason to talk '898.81': about that well yes so I think it would '902.65': have been justice Blackmun's it might '907.48': have been his 80th birthday but it was '909.01': one of his big birthdays we're having a '91.32': snow there's a one discussion in that '910.57': clerks reunion and as you know in flood '912.97': against Kuhn which is the best buy in '914.68': entrust case there's this kind of '917.89': passage at the beginning of it that's a '919.84': list of famous baseball players and it '922.0': goes on and on and apparently if he '923.5': started out with about ten of them then '925.27': various people around the building would '926.53': suggest people and then somebody said '927.94': well but if you're going to include you '929.74': know if you're going to include tinker's '931.63': you have to include Evers own occlude '934.0': Evers you have to include chances so '935.2': they just that list kind of expanded and '938.41': expanded and there was a story in the '94.259': book about justice jackson and his then '940.66': Brethren that right after the opinion '944.89': came down somebody said to him how could '947.44': you not include Jimmie Foxx and he said '949.72': Jimmie Foxx was '952.24': and the president no he's not and the '954.77': Justice went back and looked at the list '956.36': and sure enough Jimmie Foxx is not on '957.71': the list and the line in the brethren is '960.77': something like and justice Biden said '962.09': I'll never forgive myself so for his for '965.33': his um for his 80th birthday I think it '968.66': was his 80th we decided we were going to '970.82': get him one of Jimmy Fox's bags and we '973.85': looked into it and we could not find one '975.83': but it turns out that Hilary Jim Bradley '978.05': I think that's what the Louisville '979.22': Slugger company's name is they keep the '98.189': law clerk William Rehnquist and the '981.35': measurements of every player on file for '984.23': their backs and so we went to them and '986.15': we had them replicate one of Jimmy Fox's '990.41': bats and we had it mounted on a plaque '992.57': and on the bottom it just said I will '994.88': never forgive myself '996.32': hav and we gave it to him the clerk saw '999.32': gave it to him for his his his birthday

/data/video_data.parquet/447/447259/7QD30-4wqZw/360p_1320.mp4

Pam Karlan (2012) interview

On Aug. 22, 2012, the Robert H. Jackson Center hosted Prof. Pam Karlan. She was the annual Robert H. Jackson lecturer at Chautauqua Institution. The interview was conducted by Greg Peterson and covered her career, reflections on her mentor Justice Harry Blackmun and legacy of Robert H. Jackson. For further information, see www.roberthjackson.org.

180

'0.299': thank you for coming by the way this is '10.889': we've ever had for a Robert Jackson '1003.58': I saw it actually posted in his chambers '1007.9': the day he died after his funeral we all '101.39': famous or now infamous memorandum from '1010.36': went back to the chambers to hang out '1011.74': and there was the bat which I think was '1014.05': several people asked for it but I think '1016.24': it was given to the Library of Congress '1017.62': and the other thing about baseball that '1019.45': I is he had been a friend of the '1021.49': Griffiths who owned the then the '1024.459': Minneapolis Millers later the twins and '1027.97': so we would talk about baseball a lot it '1030.16': at breakfast and one day in the '1036.31': afternoon he I was in the upstairs '1038.8': chambers and I got a phone call used to '104.579': justice to justice Jackson from justice '1040.12': come down the Justice has somebody he '1042.52': wants you to meet and this group called '1044.35': the email verbum society was having its '1046.51': reunion in Washington I guess there's a '1048.13': Cubs thing and so there were these three '1053.5': guys and like bad fitting sports coats '1055.36': in his office and he introduced them to '1058.0': me and two of them I don't remember the '1059.14': name is because I'm not a Cubs fan at '1061.24': all but the last one was Andy Pafko who '1063.52': had been a Dodger as well '1065.96': at a nice conversation when afternoon '1068.299': with Andy Pafko '107.909': Rehnquist as you went through that '1070.789': and the last baseball thing I'll tell '1072.289': you is when justice blackmun retired '1074.539': from the Supreme Court I was asked to do '1076.639': one of the tributes for him in the '1078.379': Harvard Law Review and one of the things '1082.549': I talked about in the in the tribute was '1089.33': this article that been written called '1091.519': your law baseball quiz I think I told '1093.2': you about this last night where they '1094.34': compare different justices to different '1097.96': famous baseball players and I said that '110.13': clipper book in you and you've read '1100.85': you know so I tell the story of you know '1102.47': Jackie Jenson is like Byron white '1104.509': because they were both better at '1105.499': football and then I say you know and '1108.59': they compared the guy to this compared '111.93': about the activities of Thurgood '1110.769': Felix Frankfurter do among other things '1112.909': Wayne Terwilliger and I and I and then '1115.46': the art of I just set up foot and I said '1116.99': who is Wayne Terwilliger and so and then '1121.279': ultimately I said that if I had to pick '1122.99': somebody for justice blackmun to be like '1124.94': I had thought originally about Bobby '1126.529': Brown because justice like they wanted '1128.6': to be a doctor just like Bobby Brown '113.909': Marshall and William Coleman and the '1130.129': became a doctor and that I thought of '1132.32': you know a couple of other people like '1134.299': that you know Charlie Gehringer because '1136.549': it was a little tiny you know little '1141.32': tiny second baseman and you know a great '1143.529': fielder but not not a big batter and '1146.72': ultimately I came out with Dave Winfield '1148.58': which people might not have guessed '1149.779': because both of them came from st. Paul '1151.759': and made something of themselves both of '1153.86': them played the game long after many of '1155.809': their contemporaries had retired and '1157.279': both of them owed their start to a '1159.44': convicted but later pardoned Watergate '1161.629': felon to a later I'm sorry to a later '1164.809': pardoned Watergate felon because '1168.1': Blackman got his seat on the Supreme '1169.82': Court from Nixon and '117.21': whole cadre of people who were working '1172.94': George Steinbrenner's the person who '1174.68': gave Dave Winfield his biggest contract '1177.25': and so when I know sir yes so I read '1179.72': this and I wouldn't you know and the '1181.34': next time I visited the Justice that '1182.75': Justice said oh I really liked your your '1185.54': tribute a lot but come with me and he '1187.4': led me down the hall into a storeroom he '119.79': on the case did that inspire you to the '1190.67': was bending down at the Thurgood '1191.81': Marshall Center and he pulled out a copy '1193.82': of the baseball encyclopedia and he said '1197.09': this is Wayne Terwilliger and took me to '12.63': lecture and certainly the largest to '1200.45': the page twig I'd never heard of him and '1204.98': I'm a baseball fan and I'd never heard '1206.92': okay yeah I think until a few years ago '1209.33': still in baseball as a coach didn't even '1212.99': talk about Roe versus Wade ooh yes '1214.58': yeah um so the first time you talked '1216.95': about Roe vs. Wade is when I went to '1218.51': interview with him he had a justice '1221.48': blackmun would have been a tax lawyer '1223.1': before he was then counsel at the Mayo '1224.99': Clinic and he had exactly the habits you '1227.63': would expect from somebody who'd been a '1228.86': very good tax it's like incredibly '123.99': extent that you could find that that's a '1230.48': meticulous and precise and so when he '1232.34': interviewed people he had this long list '1234.32': of questions written out and he asked '1236.63': you the questions they wrote down the '1237.74': answers in pencil and towards the end of '1240.47': the interview he said now I want to ask '1242.54': you a question and I want you to think '1244.25': about this very carefully '1249.509': now I've written an opinion that's a '1252.239': little bit controversial and some people '1254.759': find that the kind of opinion that they '1257.549': have trouble with and you need to think '126.03': lineage that you could have '1260.549': about whether you would be comfortable '1261.809': working for me '1263.009': given the opinion and I'm sort of '1264.749': racking my brain to think like what '1266.249': opinion is he talking about '1268.799': and he said you may have heard of it and '127.74': yeah well I you know I decided I wanted '1271.049': now I'm thinking okay what is he gonna '1272.489': say '1272.909': he said it's called Roe against Wade and '1275.19': you know I'm a little bit of a kind of '1277.799': smartass sometimes and all I could think '1279.539': is just don't say oh my god you're that '1281.399': Harry Blackmun you're kidding but he '1284.519': actually had had a clerk apparently '1286.409': several years before who had in the '1288.119': middle of the year had a religious '1290.489': revelation that Roe was wrong and so '1295.139': that was the first time that I had a '1296.58': conversation then we had two abortion '1299.1': cases my year at the Supreme Court and '130.24': to work for the n-double-a-cp Legal '1300.96': it's actually the kind of high watermark '1303.359': of abortion rights at the Supreme Court '1305.07': was one of those cases the kids called '1306.45': Thornburg against American College of '1308.039': Obstetricians and Gynaecologists which '131.89': Defense Fund which is the organization '1310.649': the Justice wrote and so we had a fair '1313.859': number of conversations about abortion '1316.259': and he was convinced that you know that '1318.659': was also the first time that there was '1319.98': five to four who done a poll the kind of '1322.85': central premise of row because the Chief '1325.289': Justice which side so he talked about a '1327.419': lot then and then as you probably know '133.57': that bill Coleman and Charlie black and '1330.389': he used to teach at the Aspen Institute '1332.159': in the summer a justice and society '1335.039': class and he spent a day of that talking '1337.889': about the decision process leading up to '1339.929': Roe and I was there '1342.74': what do you say well he thought I mean '1345.87': it's interesting I think although he '1348.12': wouldn't I think he wouldn't put it '1350.309': quite this way his thoughts about ro '1352.02': evolved somewhat over time this when he '1355.29': started on the case his major you know '1358.95': the major focus for him was the practice '136.87': Lou and Thurgood Marshall and '1362.34': of medicine because he had come out of '1363.99': being counsel at the Mayo Clinic and he '1365.91': took very seriously they did it this was '1367.83': a medical procedure and therefore it was '1370.08': up to women in consultation with their '1372.78': doctors to make this decision in the way '1375.179': that would be true of all other medical '1376.919': procedures I think over time he came to '1379.049': see ro as equally about women's autonomy '138.64': Jack Greenberg were all part of and in '1383.76': that it wasn't mostly about medical '1386.07': autonomy it was about women's autonomy '1388.62': by the time I got there I think he was '1390.299': thinking about it and much those two '1392.79': things to have more much more in '1394.41': equipoise in being important to him but '1397.41': he just thought it was not the kind of '1398.91': decision that should be made '14.25': stay around well excellent yeah your '1400.4': categorically by the state as opposed to '1402.75': by individuals given the circumstances '1405.33': they found themselves in a gym ropes '1408.5': publicly switched no I think I think she '141.4': fact that's what I did do when I was in '1413.07': had said by then that she regretted '1414.84': having had the abortion but it wasn't '1416.85': until maybe about five years ago there '1419.22': so that she filed a sort of coram nobis '1420.75': training in Roe overturned if you had '1427.53': this pause and Sarah Gregg I've been in '143.11': law school I worked there for each of '1430.59': violence constitutional law business for '1432.44': since eighties and you had to pick kind '1436.5': of the five seminal cases to teach a '1439.98': master's class '144.73': the summers I was in law school '1444.52': five cases since the 1980s startup '1448.0': America okay '1449.26': doing a little baseline yeah was your '1451.35': people so if I had to pick the cases '1455.71': since I started since I started well '146.2': and then I was a staff lawyer there for '1462.4': you'd have to teach District of Columbia '1467.71': against Heller the Second Amendment case '1470.08': in part because it's just it's like a '1472.42': kind of kaleidoscope of all the '1474.28': different methods of constitutional '1475.96': interpretation it's got a little bit of '1477.46': originalism a little bit of textualism '1479.32': some pragmatic consequentialism a little '148.03': several years before I went into '1482.41': bit of the structure a constitutional '1484.179': structural reasoning and so although I '1486.49': know I'm not sure that the opinion has '1488.2': big legs that is I'm not sure that '149.44': teaching and I still continued to work '1490.03': there's going to be a lot of laws struck '1491.559': down that would have otherwise been '1492.73': upheld or like it's it's a it's a real '1496.45': window into contemporary constitutional '1499.12': law so I definitely teach that I think I '1503.53': would teach Lawrence against Texas '1506.62': because for substantive due process '1508.929': cases it's one of the most interesting '151.36': with them on cases so I'd like to think '1512.2': ones and you can see echoes of all of '1516.28': the sort of different prior cases in it '1519.87': I would definitely teach the Affordable '1525.49': Care Act case because it reviews huge '1529.48': amounts of constitutional law up till '1531.309': then and it sets down some markers for '1534.67': the future '1539.2': I'd have to teach one of the race cases '154.45': of myself as being part of the extended '1542.27': on the question of which race case to '1544.34': teach you know on the one hand Gruder is '1548.09': very important but I think maybe parents '1550.309': involved against Seattle School District '1552.86': number one is more significant because '1555.64': there's more of a discussion of what the '1557.809': meaning of brown is for modern times and '156.94': Legal Defense Fund family did you ever '1562.159': it's more of a contemporary court and '1567.01': then I mean there are a lot of different '1570.409': candidates because it depends on what '1572.48': you're trying to do in the master class '1573.799': that is if you're trying to say which '1575.09': cases have had the most impact on '1577.99': everyday people's lives that's going to '1580.279': be a different question than if you're '1581.75': sort of saying which cases give you the '1583.669': greatest insight into kind of how the '1587.39': justices think about things '159.7': catch up with any of those oh oh yes '1592.56': today if the presentation you gave '1595.58': wonderful wonderful conversation with '1603.56': Jackson and currency current issues '1609.48': which is of course the Jackson mission '1613.05': here is to create the relevancy of '1614.73': justice Jackson today and you did a '1617.82': phenomenal job of doing just that '1620.81': well they didn't mention one of the ones '1623.19': where he's been most influential because '1624.54': it was a lay audience which is the steel '1627.57': seizure drill the kind of three-part '1630.42': framework for determining the '1632.7': relationship between the executive power '1634.59': and legislative power and '1637.55': constitutionality but I thought to try '1640.47': and do that with a lay audience would be '1642.27': almost impossible two years ago John '1645.24': created an event at Albany Law School '1647.73': and Phil Neil said if there's anything '165.64': absolutely so I knew Jack greenberg '1655.08': one thing it probably needs to be done '1656.49': in law school so we got to teach Jackson '1659.13': and specifically his ability to write '1661.5': this style and also taking it to one '1664.35': step further which is what you did today '1666.74': is it realistic well I mean I could see '167.92': quite well I knew bill Coleman who was '1672.21': teaching a seminar it would be a great '1674.61': seminar to teach one justice through a '1678.23': range of cases I mean I've often so I '1682.23': have a friend who's also a law professor '1683.88': who once suggested you should teach a '1685.23': course called some like 342 us and the '1688.32': case book for the course would simply be '1689.85': that volume of us reports because I find '1692.76': that you can often see really '1694.98': interesting relationships between cases '1697.35': that don't look like they're about the '1699.27': same thing but that are decided around '170.17': chairman of the board of the Legal '1702.18': the same time so I think it'd be '1703.65': wonderful to have a course that focused '1705.72': on a single justice I mean you'd want it '1707.94': obviously to be an advanced con law '1709.74': class or an advanced law class more '171.52': Defense Fund by the time I was a lawyer '1712.2': general '1712.68': so that it might also involve statutory '1714.87': interpretation as well as constitutional '1716.55': interpretation but I think the the '1720.21': chance to read the unaccepted decisions '1723.09': of in particular justice you actually '1724.86': get a sense of what a an opinion looks '1726.75': like as opposed to what's in the case '1728.64': book which is a little bit of fact and '173.98': there quite well I met Thurgood Marshall '1730.62': then boom into the money language yeah '1733.95': it'd be great thing to do you can't '1738.39': there's so much so far because you look '1742.38': in the crystal ball for the next five '1743.7': years the pen Carlin is there books you '1747.18': want to write are their positions you'd '1749.52': like to get is there the ambitions of '1753.27': panco oh I well one of my ambitions is '1756.45': to be a better teacher you know I love '1759.9': teaching I love with the clinical '176.71': when I was clerking at the Supreme Court '1761.88': teaching and the regular teaching a '1763.47': little bit of it is also you know after '1766.29': you've done any particular thing for a '1768.09': while you're always looking for a little '1769.29': something new to do so for a while I was '1773.07': kind of some training almost entirely on '1774.39': election law stuff and now for the last '1776.64': six or seven years my primary focus has '1779.13': been this clinic about litigates cases '1780.9': at the Supreme Court so I was thinking '1782.85': like maybe it's around time to figure '1785.25': out what the next thing is I don't have '1787.62': you know ambitions to change my life '1789.9': permanently inside in some way '179.59': I knew Constance Baker motley from when '1792.85': I'd like to spend some time working at '1795.22': the Department of Justice I think you '1797.14': know the right job came along at the '1798.61': right time it's always one of these '18.9': first time to Chautauqua what's your '1800.2': questions of timing and job and like I '1802.03': mean I was offered the job that I would '1804.1': now like to have I was offered in the '1806.89': Clinton administration but it was the '1808.63': wrong time and I was changing schools at '1811.84': that point and I'm single you know I '1815.11': didn't want to take two years it's kind '1817.87': of a two-year detour but as you get '182.32': I was working at the district court in '1820.78': older it seems less of a detour and more '1822.52': of an opportunity just to serve and then '1824.62': go back to being just a country law '1828.46': professor '183.91': New York she was the chief judge when I '1831.01': okay so President Obama gets reelected '1835.83': Ruth Bader Ginsburg resides where the '1840.929': Kennedys well to figure out who the top '1846.37': three candidates are you would need to '1847.78': know what year she resigns in and what '1849.73': the Senate looks like because if the '185.29': was clerking on that Court and Bob '1852.429': Democrats have control of the Senate '1854.08': you'll see a different nominee than if '1856.48': the Republicans have control of the '1858.22': Senate some of it depends on you know '1864.07': people people can kind of shoot out of '1866.11': nowhere in various ways you know Elena '1870.88': Kagan was the first justice in probably '1874.95': what twenty years to be since Justice '1879.52': Rehnquist was the and justice Powell was '188.11': Carter I knew just from you know hanging '1881.5': the first justice to go on the Supreme '1883.0': Court not coming out of an appellate '1885.58': court I mean justice O'Connor was a '1887.41': state court and to be really accurate '1890.83': justice Souter was mostly a state court '1892.809': judge he had only been on the first '1896.23': circuit for less than a year but that's '1898.12': a different kind of pick and so be '1900.22': interesting to see whether the president '1901.72': decides to think about somebody's held '1904.059': elective office I mean that was one of '1905.65': the points I was making in my lecture '1907.99': today '1908.95': institution is that we don't have any '1912.59': balance Precourt with real nitty gritty '1916.6': running for office experience so I could '1919.789': see something like Jennifer Granholm or '192.1': around with civil rights lawyers so I '1923.169': lisa madigan who's Attorney General of '1926.12': Illinois or camel Harris is Attorney '1929.809': General of California you know the '193.99': think of all of the people who were '1934.22': president hasn't put a lot of women on '1937.64': the federal courts of appeals yet so if '1940.58': that's where you're looking you know '1942.52': it's not clear that there's a deep bench '1945.529': of Democrats there if it's a Republican '1949.399': kind if it's a Republican Senate he's '1951.23': going to have to move considerably '1953.36': towards the middle it's pretty hard to '1956.57': know Mitt Romney Jordan is nice up '196.24': still alive who had argued in brown by '1964.97': that's that's I was a stock hold of '1969.289': American Motors Corporation just once '1970.97': you know that South Fargo and Detroit '1973.88': Tigers friends put that on respected '1976.85': Mitt Romney was fully Republican and '1979.58': he's got the choice there two or three '1982.57': candidates that jump out to use logical '1985.61': yeah so I I would think for him the kind '1989.27': of obvious choices would be Brett '199.48': the time I was an adult I've met I get I '1991.97': Kavanaugh who's on the DC circuit very '1994.159': young very conservative Jeff Sutton from '1996.62': the sixth circuit young and conservative '1999.169': ents smart although Jeff probably didn't '2.04': Gregor you're us your startup has been '20.34': impressions of all this well I've been '2001.27': do himself a big favor when he upheld '2004.75': the Affordable Care Act and then I would '2009.34': think Paul Clemente who's the Solicitor '201.58': managed to meet them all I mean all of '2011.26': General would be '2013.419': in the Bush administration be a kind of '2015.399': obvious candidate those straight me as '2018.999': the people most likely in a Romney '2021.969': administration I'm smiling because dolly '2024.309': lives would answered the same question '2026.979': in the same way well '203.17': the people argued on the right side yeah '2030.659': paranoid paranoid liberal she had a '2033.009': couple of a couple of mail names to the '2035.229': democratic posted oh yeah I mean III I '2037.779': convinced I mean '2039.249': Judge garland would be you know if it's '204.76': did you find that with that did you find '2041.559': in the next year or two '2042.879': who's on the DC Circuit would be a kind '2045.669': of obvious candidate you know now that '2050.649': Paul Watford has gotten onto the ninth '2053.649': circuit '2054.429': he might be an extremely attractive '2056.71': candidate most important question she's '2063.579': baseball became its antitrust exemption '2066.149': well you know I'm a big bill James fan '2068.679': and Bill James has a discussion of this '2070.839': where he says that if you got rid of the '2072.519': antitrust exemption what you might start '2074.74': to see is a kind of proliferation of a '2077.829': third or fourth majorly don't was coming '2081.069': out of minor league teams I'm not sure '2086.589': what function the antitrust exemption '2089.609': really performs today given that there's '2092.139': now an agreement between the Players '2094.48': Association and the teams right you know '2098.47': and and a huge percentage ever since '210.61': that you went to law school and were '2101.349': free agency a huge percentage of the '2104.769': revenue has moved over to the players '2106.48': I'm not sure that the existing players '2108.43': would favor getting rid of me and I '2109.99': trust exemption such an anachronism yeah '2113.98': yeah but hard to see that it's actually '2116.92': having much effect on on the game itself '2119.4': and the real question is how you '2121.93': maintain competitive balance if you if '2124.569': you want to maintain the sport the real '2126.039': question is how to maintain competitive '2127.93': balance and without the antitrust '2129.22': exemption '213.37': there a lot of your classmates who found '2130.33': it might be harder easier Supreme Court '2133.72': Historical Society is celebrating the '2135.73': 40th anniversary of that decision and '2137.7': they have working with two podium '2144.82': individuals and a judge to sort of '2147.28': reenact the case and that simply take it '2149.5': through everything for me there I think '2152.35': folks do it all as far as any guidance '2154.15': no no I know flood against tuna was way '2157.21': before my time '2157.96': yeah but thank you I know I know but '216.67': that social part of the practice of law '2161.5': every time I say something critical '2163.75': about the Chief Justice and being an '2165.28': umpire diminish my chances of being '2168.43': invited to the flood against Hugh '2170.11': celebration well tell me about that well '2177.79': you wrote that did you get feedback did '2179.41': you like no not well the Chief Justice '2182.2': doesn't blow back there did somebody I '2184.39': mean if there's no no I mean I'd if '2188.02': there I was at an event where I talked '219.81': important well I think you know I have a '2190.66': about this and this may be kind of music '2196.03': so has an event where I talked about '2197.26': this a little bit of know you know but '2199.0': Chief Justice and the umpire analogy '22.41': hearing about Chautauqua for years when '2201.43': like and efforts Justice Thomas was had '2204.22': been there and he came up to me and said '2206.5': hey give you a little bicep a nice oh '2208.42': yeah sure mr. justice he said don't hold '2210.22': back '2210.49': tell us what you really think have you '2212.56': got a stop being that you've got to stop '2214.09': being so reticent so no you know the '2218.98': Chief Justice isn't just as a big boy '2220.96': yeah '2223.22': by the way Jen talked about Thursday '2226.01': I've been in social situations where '2227.48': he's been there in by far and away when '2229.16': all the justices are there and it '223.36': lot of friends from Moscow who have done '2230.78': Supreme Court Oracle society man well '2232.46': he's very outgoing you can get access '2234.619': immediate access to everybody but him '2236.27': because time it's only because you've '2238.25': got 40 50 people hanging on I mean it's '2240.74': just doctors you can't get them no he's '2243.14': got more social skills in one-on-one '2245.54': than the average surgeries are just '2247.13': essentially he slapped more people on '2249.829': the back down and all the reason of the '225.13': public interest practice or either for '2254.42': current justices and you've written '2257.69': about them what's what's your sense of '2264.73': Roberts decision you know how do you '2268.19': read that in the healthcare act I don't '227.68': private groups like the Legal Defense '2272.39': wanna say Obamacare because you don't '2273.5': want me to say about that well wrong '2278.06': news head I mean I don't want to crawl '2280.91': into his head I I was not surprised at '2284.27': all by most of what he wrote that is I '2286.28': was not surprised that he upheld it on '2287.839': taxing power grounds and I was not '229.45': Fund or for the government so yeah I '2291.89': surprised that he thought there was a '2294.68': spending Clause problem with Medicaid '2296.96': because those seem to me to be pretty '2299.93': predictable what did surprise me is how '2302.3': much he went out of his way to decide '2305.21': the Commerce Clause issue when it wasn't '2306.98': necessary to the bottom line because as '2308.9': you know he spent a lot of time talking '2310.849': about how we should did not decide the '2313.52': things we don't need to decide and then '2315.829': in this case he went out of his way to '2317.329': do it and he's done that before that is '2320.27': his opinion for the court in the new '2323.51': Mudd no case which is a case about '2325.9': constitutionality of section 5 of the '2327.61': Voting Rights Act the court ultimately '2329.08': decided it on very narrow statutory '233.47': think a fair number of the people I knew '2331.54': grounds but along the way he said a lot '2334.03': of nasty things about the Voting Rights '2335.5': Act um you know he was a clerk for '2341.5': Justice Rehnquist and observed Justice '2343.99': Rehnquist's Supreme Court career he is a '2346.72': huge fan of Chief Justice John Marshall '2349.72': and has thought a lot about John '235.81': in law school were very committed to '2351.34': Marshalls career and both of those men '2353.83': both Marshall and Rehnquist were '2357.19': extremely strategic and kept their eye '2360.91': on the long view and that's true for the '2364.93': Chief Justice as well '2365.92': the man is 57 years old he does not need '2369.67': to take all the cards off the table in '237.25': doing civil rights work and have done it '2371.62': one hand and I think his decision his '2376.45': opinion in the affordable care act case '2379.33': was an extremely strategic decision so '2384.01': that somebody and all sides could have '2386.32': think once they read it they read it '2389.25': fine glass they can get something out of '2392.05': that well he it's designed to make him '2394.99': appear statesman like right which is he '2399.55': sort of says look you there's this '24.029': I was growing up because my grandmother '240.04': in one form or another '2401.74': passage towards the beginning of his '2403.72': opinion where he says it's not our job '2405.73': to save the people from the consequences '2408.07': of their political decisions our job is '241.27': their careers constitutional law of all '2410.08': to apply the law well what is that '2412.42': supposed to mean '2413.35': and not our job to save the people from '2415.45': their consequences their political '2416.65': decisions in other words saying if you '2418.21': pass a stupid statute like this don't '2419.98': expect us to fix it so I think it was '2424.48': designed to make him appear '2428.01': non-political right he's he's turning '2432.19': his back on the Tea Party agenda '2434.289': case while also allowing him to say a '2437.739': bunch of nasty things about the kind of '2442.479': liberal welfare state and I think he '2446.819': gained a fair amount of capital from the '2449.38': decision there that will stand him in '245.74': that was was at the area which obviously '2451.329': good stead when he spends it on issues '2453.039': he cares more about I don't think the '2454.689': Commerce Clause is the biggest issue for '2457.059': the chief justice that he cares about in '2458.829': constitutional law but certainly don't '2461.529': think the taxing powers Robert Jackson '2465.279': Center you're here today the thrilled '2467.199': you are here today and we are here to '2469.749': advance the legacy of Justice Robert '2472.029': Jackson I had Michael Berenbaum whom you '2474.429': met sitting at seat just yesterday '2476.559': asking him you know if he had some '2478.599': advice for us for only 11 years old or '248.85': established a reputation well the kind '2481.119': work-in-progress as to areas of which to '2484.209': find ourselves and if you had to give us '2487.509': some guidance panel well if you think '2490.9': about justice Jackson right what are the '2492.999': kind of things he's most known for the '2496.539': Nuremberg trials which obviously have '2499.239': continued bearing on the world today '25.56': and her first cousin came every summer '2502.839': because of '2505.44': the rise of international war crimes '2508.98': tribunals and Human Rights Tribunal '2511.17': sunlight I mean obviously that's one '2513.78': area where you know he serves as a kind '2516.869': of focal point for the United States on '2518.819': that and then the other thing I think is '252.85': of irony about that is when I got to law '2523.05': legal writing to go back to the point '2526.2': you were making about Phil Neal earlier '2527.819': that justice Jackson was such a clear '2531.0': writer and thinker I think it'd just be '2534.42': really useful to think about how do you '2538.55': perpetuate that legacy I mean you know '2542.46': you can read a Robert Jackson opinion '2544.319': today and it speaks to you whereas you '2547.5': know you read some of the opinions from '2548.97': the if you know from the Warren burger '255.31': school my first semester in law school I '2554.42': Rehnquist and Roberts courts and they're '2557.88': just impenetrable '2561.35': or they're impenetrable sort of masses '2565.49': of soupy mass with a couple of quotable '2568.25': lines thrown and the thing that's '257.26': was assigned to constitutional law with '2570.32': interesting you know and made it a '2572.06': little hard when I was preparing my talk '2573.92': for today for the Jackson centers '2575.18': sometimes the best Jackson quotations '2577.55': are two or three paragraphs long because '2581.09': he's setting up an argument and then '2583.66': explaining the argument as he goes '2585.71': through it '2586.22': I mean he's not he isn't even though '2587.96': he's got some of the greatest one-liners '2589.64': in Supreme Court history that's not '259.72': Robert Bork so I'm not sure that what I '2591.47': actually what makes him the greatest '2593.0': writer in some ways and so getting '2595.49': people to focus more on legal writing '2597.94': would you do that boy you know that's an '2601.73': interesting question I mean I think it'd '2606.77': be great to have to have you know have '2610.49': something that gives people a sense of '2612.11': how good his writing was you know some '2617.39': of it depends on which audiences you're '2618.86': aiming at I mean I think having a legal '2621.71': writing thing where you bring in judges '2623.48': and talk to them about legal write it I '2625.61': mean especially like state Supreme Court '2627.74': justice is often don't get much training '263.65': learned in first-year constitutional law '2630.5': and how to write an opinion or how to '2631.88': think about it '2637.569': what hurry black would mean to pimp oh '2641.259': he was he was everything he was just '2644.539': such a great boss and he and he was so '2648.47': meticulous I mean one of the things that '2650.269': he really taught me was attention to '2652.549': detail because he was very much a detail '2654.799': man and just an extremely brave man I '2658.67': mean the year before I clerked for the '266.49': stuck I I knew I disagreed with him and '2660.65': summer that I clerk from your that that '2663.529': previous spring you know when he came '2665.45': back to start eating breakfast with us '2667.94': we had a US Marshal and a Supreme Court '2669.71': police officer with us every morning at '2672.38': breakfast and the reason for that is '2673.64': that he had been shot out the year '2675.769': before he got up to go to the kitchen '2678.74': and a bullet came through the window and '2680.66': landed in the chair it did sitting in '2682.97': mmm one of the things he then ended up '2685.039': with it was a huge kerfuffle with his '2687.829': insurance company because there was a '2689.329': pair of upholstered chairs and the FBI '2692.21': came and like cut out a huge chunk of '2694.609': the chair that the bullet had gone into '2696.289': and he wanted to have both the chairs '2697.97': recovered and the insurance company said '2699.74': well there's nothing wrong with the '270.85': I didn't really know why I disagreed '2700.7': other chair so they've been over the '2703.339': back and forth over the chairs but you '2706.339': know he he was very principled he stuck '2709.099': to his principles and he was '2712.869': unbelievably hard-working I mean however '2715.13': hard I work I never work as hard as he '2717.38': worked '2719.52': you're the eighth speaker in Robert H '272.92': with him because I think for me the '2721.95': ejection lectureship and you've raised '2724.65': the bar very very high today '2728.16': whoo so how lucky that you're doing this '2730.26': that Mambo thing and everybody can get '2732.6': under it more easily now well that's who '2735.69': would you recommend to Jen and I next '2738.6': year '2738.99': oh so thinking about like we've had '274.87': difficulty in the way he taught us he '2743.49': solicitor jabber solicit think about '2745.74': like who is it that I love to listen to '2748.53': when they talk about law that you '2752.04': haven't had because you've had Paul '2753.78': Clemente company yeah and you've had '2755.82': Dahlia who I love listening to you know '276.46': was very fast very quick very witty and '2765.6': Bill Marshall is a really interesting '2767.66': guy - I find him just really interesting '2772.62': to listen to '2780.41': in terms of in terms of '2783.82': you know one person who'd be interesting '2785.89': to have because he's now off the bench '2787.66': and he's talking a lot more frankly '2790.21': about a lot of stuff is Vaughn Walker '2791.5': who was a federal district judge in '2793.51': California he's a really interesting '2795.43': speaker and obviously decide a huge '2797.62': number of important cases including the '2799.36': California marriage case I would think '28.92': and so I was excited to get a chance to '280.9': you're a first-year law student and so '2802.12': he'd be super interesting '2808.41': just kind of thinking '2816.84': you know my colleague Michael McConnell '2818.61': is a super interesting speaker on '282.58': even if you know you disagree with him '2821.13': virtually everything '2826.18': one person you know because I think you '2830.23': know who might be really interesting is '2831.46': sherrilyn Ifill he's a professor at the '2833.499': University of Maryland who has is '2837.49': writing right now about judicial '2839.38': confirmation hmm processes and she's an '284.05': it's hard to formulate what your '2843.069': unbelievably great and dynamic speaker '2846.42': so she might be a good person '2851.02': I should show you the clip of Dalia '2852.76': talking about you I love doll yeah I '2856.0': love dolly she's so into she wrote she '2859.48': wrote a piece this past year that was my '286.06': disagreements are and I think I didn't '2861.369': favorite piece of all time about '2863.17': corporate personhood it was about this '2865.27': little nothing burg case called that I '2867.28': think was FCC against AT&T it was a case '2869.68': about an exemption under the Freedom of '2872.829': Information Act for things that would '2876.849': interfere with the personal privacy of '2879.46': an individual and AT&T said well we '288.61': teach constitutional law until I've been '2882.79': should be able to protect ourselves here '2884.47': and that Court ultimately helped that '2887.2': they shouldn't and that Chief Justice '2888.579': makes some jokes about AT&T and not '2891.19': taking anything personally in this '2892.54': opinion but she wrote a description of '2894.7': the oral argument the case that was '2895.93': written completely as if 18t were a '2898.21': person and it's just it's just marvelous '290.38': teaching for quite some time in part '2901.98': question that is often asked oh no you '2904.809': know me you should definitely also think '2906.25': about his Walter Dellinger who is a '2908.17': great speaker and it was not on the '2912.22': court during the Robert Jackson use but '2913.96': was a Hugo black Clarke in the 1960s '2919.42': question that gets off in a spiral a '292.6': because I didn't want to have my '2921.76': radio guy is if you've had a chance to '2924.97': have dinner '2927.19': '- John Gemini anybody in history you can' '2933.01': choose three guests who did related '2937.24': somebody you're fine '2938.47': just extremely fascinating - really well '2942.24': that's it you know that's such a hard '2944.44': question cuz okay you want to have '2948.7': dinner with us somebody who will '2949.57': actually talk to you about that stuff as '295.63': students experience constitutional line '2951.79': opposed to somebody who won't talk about '2955.69': right so you might be really interested '2957.82': in knowing what somebody thinks but if '2959.98': they're very guarded then the dinner '2961.99': would be kind of painful so no no I know '2964.69': but I'm a law professor so I would '2966.82': really love to have dinner with Franklin '2969.04': Roosevelt I would really love to have '297.61': the way I had experienced it as the '2971.95': dinner with Franklin Roosevelt's and '2975.58': although I think I would have to like be '2978.16': extremely careful and sit at the other '2980.5': end of the table I'd actually love to '2982.15': have dinner with Lyndon Johnson as just '2984.64': reading the last of the following the '2986.83': Latin most recent in the bottoms of the '2988.0': Kara biography I'm just fascinated by '299.56': professor having a very strong point of '2990.94': him I just you know I'd love to and the '2997.12': other person I would love to have dinner '2998.74': with because I just love to know more '3001.11': about what made her who she was is '3003.42': Fannie Lou Hamer hmm I mean you know '3007.32': where did you get the kind of courage to '301.27': view that kind of overwhelmed whatever '3011.49': stick with it like '3016.35': this is an aside I recently interviewed '3018.9': Andrew Young and he talked they gave him '3022.14': a flash cards all the people who civil '3024.63': rights movement it was I had 20 minute '3027.27': stop that was all I had '3028.35': and I gave it to him as a baseball cards '3030.21': yeah just tell me who's left throws even '3033.21': further like oh yeah this is great '304.24': values you came into law school with so '3045.78': you are terrific and unfortunately '3051.32': looking forward to it I'm looking '3053.64': forward to what's the line about you '3055.71': know you can summarize every Jewish '3057.15': holiday in nine words they tried to kill '3059.1': us they didn't let see Cindy just texted '306.43': those tried to be very careful that I '3065.04': she's going to the restaurant '3066.63': I know we have there was she's tagging '3068.04': on two verses you got the word out right '3069.6': so was one of the partner we're gonna '3077.07': turn fishermen six okay perfect '308.14': teach my conservative students how to be '31.859': come up and when I arrived I was just '311.44': the best constitutional law lawyers they '313.24': can be as well as teaching students '315.28': whose views on the issues coincide more '3164.359': you '317.86': with mine of course finding yourself '3185.92': you '3209.74': you '323.71': from the United States Supreme Court day '326.44': one when you walked in there and well '3275.81': you '333.25': this is gonna sound odd but I actually '337.15': felt more comfortable arguing in the US '34.02': struck by how incredibly gorgeous '340.84': Supreme Court then I felt arguing in '342.88': several of the courts of appeals where '344.95': I've argued in part because I clerked at '3455.96': you '346.75': the court and so the building was '348.82': familiar to me the personnel on the '350.62': court were familiar to me you don't have '352.63': the problem when you go to the Supreme '354.01': Court that you can handle on courts of '355.36': appeals which is you don't know who your '356.71': panel is until you get there so you've '359.53': thought about you've briefed the case '36.8': Chautauqua is a combination of just '361.419': for the people you're actually gonna '362.47': argue in front of the thing that's '364.21': amazing about the argument is how fast '366.37': it goes '367.6': mean a my first argument I only had 10 '3696.23': you '370.99': minutes because I was splitting time '372.4': with the Solicitor General and I feel '375.82': like I didn't take a breath the whole '377.29': time I was up there it just pushed by me '381.0': but there's something totally '383.17': exhilarating I sometimes say to my '385.72': students that arguing in front of the '387.79': Supreme Court is the most fun you can '389.26': have in 30 minutes in public wearing '39.45': physical gorgeousness and total charm '391.54': your clothes standing up being all by '393.37': yourself doing nothing but talking and I '396.37': I continue to feel that although I have '398.89': to say that the current court is so much '402.4': more conservative than both the court I '404.59': clerked on and the court I started '407.02': practicing in front of that's it's a '409.12': little less fun to go up there today '410.59': because it's a little harder to win the '412.27': cases that I tend to be arguing I '419.11': clicked for justice baikman in October '42.469': you know the houses and the people '421.72': term 1985 so it was the last year that '424.21': Chief Justice burger was chief justice '433.32': sure so I'll do them in order of '437.14': seniority because when justice Blackmun '439.69': used to come back from the conference '442.21': where it's just the nine justices in the '444.16': room and nobody else he would read us '446.29': his notes and he always read them in the '448.75': order the justices went which is the '45.629': walking around and everything was just '450.4': order of seniority so Chief Justice '452.92': burger he looked like a chief justice he '456.91': really did he by the time I got there '460.75': justice Blackmun and he although they '462.28': had been friends growing up and justice '464.32': Blackmun had actually been the best man '466.45': at chief justice burgers wedding by the '469.09': time I got there they really weren't '470.08': speaking to each other so I think my '471.97': views of the chief are colored somewhat '473.92': by how justice Blackmun felt about him '477.88': but the chief was very into ceremony he '48.239': it's just been delightful I hope to come '482.14': was fairly conservative not super '488.59': imaginative '490.68': my first encounter with him was there '493.11': was a party at the beginning of the term '495.54': for all of the clerks and the justices '497.37': dining-room and he came up to me and he '499.86': looked at me and he had been talking to '502.83': justice rehnquist and he looked at me '504.33': and he said well there there certainly '506.16': are a lot of you here this year and my '509.49': first reaction is how does he know I'm '51.84': back no I'm the first lawyer in the '510.69': Jewish but he actually met women because '514.29': there were seven women and so I said I '516.66': realized that's what he meant and I said '520.02': well you know justice blackmun has three '521.52': female clerks this year and it was the '523.02': first time in justice I had three and '524.76': the chief justice to me said well I '526.77': guess he's going to need a lot of help '528.09': huh and I said no no we're gonna do all '532.95': the cooking and cleaning ourselves but '536.22': so my experience what the chief was '539.75': somewhat odd justice justice Brennan was '545.43': the senior associate justice at the time '547.68': and he was extremely gregarious and '550.59': outgoing so he would you know how I how '555.6': I he would say and he had that kind of '557.37': New Jersey accent the other thing he '559.02': taught me I think this is one of the '560.58': things I've never forgotten this you '562.2': taught me how if you have to shake a lot '564.12': of people's hands to shake hands with '565.65': them which is you extend your hand and '567.36': then you grab their elbow because then '569.61': if they squeeze your hand too hard you '571.2': can squeeze their elbow and they'll '573.36': release their grip and he told me he '574.98': learned that in politics he was very '579.45': gregarious he was he made an effort I '584.4': think and I think it was a strategic '586.29': effort in addition to just his natural '587.97': outgoing personality to get to know a '590.22': lot of the clerks in the building '591.54': because I think he felt that that helped '593.36': him to enlist them kind of on his side '597.27': in a way justice White was a leader '6.45': advanced here every but it was exciting '600.78': frankfurter type person '604.46': yeah I think in a way I think in a way '608.02': justice frankfurter I'm sorry justice '611.089': white was the second most senior '614.029': associate justice he had given up '617.3': playing basketball with the clerk's by '618.98': the time I was there apparently a couple '620.54': of years before a clerk who had been '622.19': just frustrated by the justices somewhat '624.86': over rough play had just cold-cocked him '626.57': during a game but he's still putted with '629.149': his clerks for money after every '63.03': family I mean my grandmother's brother '630.529': afternoon and it was interesting my year '635.57': at the courts the division among the '639.83': justices the thing that most seemed to '643.399': divide them was there were a couple of '645.86': abortion cases and Lawrence against '648.92': Texas which was a case about the Georgia '65.07': in law was a lawyer but I didn't spend '652.43': sodomy I'm sorry not Lawrence against '654.2': Texas Bowers against Hardwick the case '655.94': about the Georgia sodomy statute which '657.77': was ultimately overruled by the Supreme '659.24': Court later in Lawrence against Texas '66.689': much time with him I actually decided to '661.19': and so there was a there was a little '663.29': bit of tension between justice Blackmun '665.18': and justice white because they were on '667.279': opposite sides of this two cases the '670.97': next justice down was justice Marshall '673.87': and by the time I got to the Supreme '676.82': Court he was I think he was he was quite '68.97': become a lawyer because when I was a '680.54': old I mean there were five of the '682.339': justices were over 75 the year I was '684.38': there he was quite old he wasn't in the '686.54': best of health and so he moved very '689.779': slowly and I think he was kind of angry '692.6': and alienated by then quite a bit from '694.79': the court but occasionally if he stopped '697.94': by his chambers in the afternoon he '699.68': would be in a storytelling mood and he '701.27': would just he was a marvellous '702.83': storyteller so you tell stories about '704.39': his time in practice I think you know I '707.3': think he was one of the obviously one of '71.64': junior in high school over that summer I '710.72': the most formative lawyers of the 20th '712.73': century but I think he's one of those '715.1': people if you were writing his biography '716.6': most of the good stuff happened before '718.76': he got to the Supreme Court as opposed '720.74': to some of the justices for whom the '722.75': Supreme Court really was the pinnacle of '724.85': their achievement '726.65': then there was just a splatter then came '733.85': justice Powell justice Powell had been '737.21': sick the year before and had been out '738.86': for quite some time and is still a '74.43': read simple justice which is a book by '741.35': little frail when I got there but you '743.69': know and kind of extraordinarily '745.48': gentlemanly one of the clerk's my year '748.78': had a serious had a serious medical '752.71': issue and justice justice Powell sent '756.92': flowers to the clerk afterwards you know '759.89': just the charming man um he switched his '76.38': Richard Kluger about the litigation that '765.05': vote in one of the biggest cases my year '766.85': Bowers against Hardwick and I think '769.01': justice Blackmun was convinced the chief '772.31': had lobbied him very hard on that case '774.88': he was the swing vote when I was there '777.35': and so a lot of issues so there was a '78.689': led up to Brown against Board of '780.11': lot of concentration on him after him '783.41': came justice Stevens '786.74': oh no justice rehnquist came and then '789.08': just as soon as it justice rehnquist '790.91': you know when he was an Associate '792.44': Justice I think was a little bit looser '795.83': than he was when he was chief justice '798.28': although the interesting thing for me is '8.28': today you had probably the largest crowd '80.13': Education and I decided I wanted to be a '800.63': when I went back to visit justice '802.43': blackmun after justice rehnquist had '805.7': taken over and became chief justice '807.02': rehnquist everybody loved him as chief '809.09': justice he's thought to be extremely '811.19': fair and balanced and straightforward in '813.74': a way that I think the liberal justices '815.48': had not felt about just as Chief Justice '818.54': burger but when I was there he was still '821.27': a relatively junior justice he was quite '823.37': often in dissent much more so than when '827.39': he became chief justice but very '829.79': friendly very casual his clerks were out '83.759': civil rights lawyer and work for the '832.73': of the building by 6 p.m. '835.27': midnight then after him came justice '838.0': Stevens who was exactly the same you '84.84': n-double-a-cp Legal Defense Fund so that '841.39': know interestingly quirky and always in '846.04': a bowtie he only had two clerks the '848.53': other justices all had four and there's '852.01': very much kind of his own his own person '854.92': and then came justice O'Connor who was '857.02': very junior obviously when I was there '858.61': she was in her I guess her fourth or '859.84': fifth term on the court and you know '864.18': extremely personable she ran a exercise '868.14': class for all the female clerks at 8:00 '87.96': book inspired me to become a lawyer 'no '871.45': a.m. and we were invited to go to it but '873.28': unfortunately justice Blackmun had '874.96': breakfast with all of his clerks at 8:00 '876.67': a.m. so I think we'd managed to get to '878.56': the exercise class two or three days '880.12': when he was out of town but other than '881.68': that we didn't go justice blackmun wrote '889.9': to me one of the more interesting '892.29': decisions and oh honey school yeah do '897.31': you guys ever have any reason to talk '898.81': about that well yes so I think it would '902.65': have been justice Blackmun's it might '907.48': have been his 80th birthday but it was '909.01': one of his big birthdays we're having a '91.32': snow there's a one discussion in that '910.57': clerks reunion and as you know in flood '912.97': against Kuhn which is the best buy in '914.68': entrust case there's this kind of '917.89': passage at the beginning of it that's a '919.84': list of famous baseball players and it '922.0': goes on and on and apparently if he '923.5': started out with about ten of them then '925.27': various people around the building would '926.53': suggest people and then somebody said '927.94': well but if you're going to include you '929.74': know if you're going to include tinker's '931.63': you have to include Evers own occlude '934.0': Evers you have to include chances so '935.2': they just that list kind of expanded and '938.41': expanded and there was a story in the '94.259': book about justice jackson and his then '940.66': Brethren that right after the opinion '944.89': came down somebody said to him how could '947.44': you not include Jimmie Foxx and he said '949.72': Jimmie Foxx was '952.24': and the president no he's not and the '954.77': Justice went back and looked at the list '956.36': and sure enough Jimmie Foxx is not on '957.71': the list and the line in the brethren is '960.77': something like and justice Biden said '962.09': I'll never forgive myself so for his for '965.33': his um for his 80th birthday I think it '968.66': was his 80th we decided we were going to '970.82': get him one of Jimmy Fox's bags and we '973.85': looked into it and we could not find one '975.83': but it turns out that Hilary Jim Bradley '978.05': I think that's what the Louisville '979.22': Slugger company's name is they keep the '98.189': law clerk William Rehnquist and the '981.35': measurements of every player on file for '984.23': their backs and so we went to them and '986.15': we had them replicate one of Jimmy Fox's '990.41': bats and we had it mounted on a plaque '992.57': and on the bottom it just said I will '994.88': never forgive myself '996.32': hav and we gave it to him the clerk saw '999.32': gave it to him for his his his birthday

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Pam Karlan (2012) interview

On Aug. 22, 2012, the Robert H. Jackson Center hosted Prof. Pam Karlan. She was the annual Robert H. Jackson lecturer at Chautauqua Institution. The interview was conducted by Greg Peterson and covered her career, reflections on her mentor Justice Harry Blackmun and legacy of Robert H. Jackson. For further information, see www.roberthjackson.org.

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'0.299': thank you for coming by the way this is '10.889': we've ever had for a Robert Jackson '1003.58': I saw it actually posted in his chambers '1007.9': the day he died after his funeral we all '101.39': famous or now infamous memorandum from '1010.36': went back to the chambers to hang out '1011.74': and there was the bat which I think was '1014.05': several people asked for it but I think '1016.24': it was given to the Library of Congress '1017.62': and the other thing about baseball that '1019.45': I is he had been a friend of the '1021.49': Griffiths who owned the then the '1024.459': Minneapolis Millers later the twins and '1027.97': so we would talk about baseball a lot it '1030.16': at breakfast and one day in the '1036.31': afternoon he I was in the upstairs '1038.8': chambers and I got a phone call used to '104.579': justice to justice Jackson from justice '1040.12': come down the Justice has somebody he '1042.52': wants you to meet and this group called '1044.35': the email verbum society was having its '1046.51': reunion in Washington I guess there's a '1048.13': Cubs thing and so there were these three '1053.5': guys and like bad fitting sports coats '1055.36': in his office and he introduced them to '1058.0': me and two of them I don't remember the '1059.14': name is because I'm not a Cubs fan at '1061.24': all but the last one was Andy Pafko who '1063.52': had been a Dodger as well '1065.96': at a nice conversation when afternoon '1068.299': with Andy Pafko '107.909': Rehnquist as you went through that '1070.789': and the last baseball thing I'll tell '1072.289': you is when justice blackmun retired '1074.539': from the Supreme Court I was asked to do '1076.639': one of the tributes for him in the '1078.379': Harvard Law Review and one of the things '1082.549': I talked about in the in the tribute was '1089.33': this article that been written called '1091.519': your law baseball quiz I think I told '1093.2': you about this last night where they '1094.34': compare different justices to different '1097.96': famous baseball players and I said that '110.13': clipper book in you and you've read '1100.85': you know so I tell the story of you know '1102.47': Jackie Jenson is like Byron white '1104.509': because they were both better at '1105.499': football and then I say you know and '1108.59': they compared the guy to this compared '111.93': about the activities of Thurgood '1110.769': Felix Frankfurter do among other things '1112.909': Wayne Terwilliger and I and I and then '1115.46': the art of I just set up foot and I said '1116.99': who is Wayne Terwilliger and so and then '1121.279': ultimately I said that if I had to pick '1122.99': somebody for justice blackmun to be like '1124.94': I had thought originally about Bobby '1126.529': Brown because justice like they wanted '1128.6': to be a doctor just like Bobby Brown '113.909': Marshall and William Coleman and the '1130.129': became a doctor and that I thought of '1132.32': you know a couple of other people like '1134.299': that you know Charlie Gehringer because '1136.549': it was a little tiny you know little '1141.32': tiny second baseman and you know a great '1143.529': fielder but not not a big batter and '1146.72': ultimately I came out with Dave Winfield '1148.58': which people might not have guessed '1149.779': because both of them came from st. Paul '1151.759': and made something of themselves both of '1153.86': them played the game long after many of '1155.809': their contemporaries had retired and '1157.279': both of them owed their start to a '1159.44': convicted but later pardoned Watergate '1161.629': felon to a later I'm sorry to a later '1164.809': pardoned Watergate felon because '1168.1': Blackman got his seat on the Supreme '1169.82': Court from Nixon and '117.21': whole cadre of people who were working '1172.94': George Steinbrenner's the person who '1174.68': gave Dave Winfield his biggest contract '1177.25': and so when I know sir yes so I read '1179.72': this and I wouldn't you know and the '1181.34': next time I visited the Justice that '1182.75': Justice said oh I really liked your your '1185.54': tribute a lot but come with me and he '1187.4': led me down the hall into a storeroom he '119.79': on the case did that inspire you to the '1190.67': was bending down at the Thurgood '1191.81': Marshall Center and he pulled out a copy '1193.82': of the baseball encyclopedia and he said '1197.09': this is Wayne Terwilliger and took me to '12.63': lecture and certainly the largest to '1200.45': the page twig I'd never heard of him and '1204.98': I'm a baseball fan and I'd never heard '1206.92': okay yeah I think until a few years ago '1209.33': still in baseball as a coach didn't even '1212.99': talk about Roe versus Wade ooh yes '1214.58': yeah um so the first time you talked '1216.95': about Roe vs. Wade is when I went to '1218.51': interview with him he had a justice '1221.48': blackmun would have been a tax lawyer '1223.1': before he was then counsel at the Mayo '1224.99': Clinic and he had exactly the habits you '1227.63': would expect from somebody who'd been a '1228.86': very good tax it's like incredibly '123.99': extent that you could find that that's a '1230.48': meticulous and precise and so when he '1232.34': interviewed people he had this long list '1234.32': of questions written out and he asked '1236.63': you the questions they wrote down the '1237.74': answers in pencil and towards the end of '1240.47': the interview he said now I want to ask '1242.54': you a question and I want you to think '1244.25': about this very carefully '1249.509': now I've written an opinion that's a '1252.239': little bit controversial and some people '1254.759': find that the kind of opinion that they '1257.549': have trouble with and you need to think '126.03': lineage that you could have '1260.549': about whether you would be comfortable '1261.809': working for me '1263.009': given the opinion and I'm sort of '1264.749': racking my brain to think like what '1266.249': opinion is he talking about '1268.799': and he said you may have heard of it and '127.74': yeah well I you know I decided I wanted '1271.049': now I'm thinking okay what is he gonna '1272.489': say '1272.909': he said it's called Roe against Wade and '1275.19': you know I'm a little bit of a kind of '1277.799': smartass sometimes and all I could think '1279.539': is just don't say oh my god you're that '1281.399': Harry Blackmun you're kidding but he '1284.519': actually had had a clerk apparently '1286.409': several years before who had in the '1288.119': middle of the year had a religious '1290.489': revelation that Roe was wrong and so '1295.139': that was the first time that I had a '1296.58': conversation then we had two abortion '1299.1': cases my year at the Supreme Court and '130.24': to work for the n-double-a-cp Legal '1300.96': it's actually the kind of high watermark '1303.359': of abortion rights at the Supreme Court '1305.07': was one of those cases the kids called '1306.45': Thornburg against American College of '1308.039': Obstetricians and Gynaecologists which '131.89': Defense Fund which is the organization '1310.649': the Justice wrote and so we had a fair '1313.859': number of conversations about abortion '1316.259': and he was convinced that you know that '1318.659': was also the first time that there was '1319.98': five to four who done a poll the kind of '1322.85': central premise of row because the Chief '1325.289': Justice which side so he talked about a '1327.419': lot then and then as you probably know '133.57': that bill Coleman and Charlie black and '1330.389': he used to teach at the Aspen Institute '1332.159': in the summer a justice and society '1335.039': class and he spent a day of that talking '1337.889': about the decision process leading up to '1339.929': Roe and I was there '1342.74': what do you say well he thought I mean '1345.87': it's interesting I think although he '1348.12': wouldn't I think he wouldn't put it '1350.309': quite this way his thoughts about ro '1352.02': evolved somewhat over time this when he '1355.29': started on the case his major you know '1358.95': the major focus for him was the practice '136.87': Lou and Thurgood Marshall and '1362.34': of medicine because he had come out of '1363.99': being counsel at the Mayo Clinic and he '1365.91': took very seriously they did it this was '1367.83': a medical procedure and therefore it was '1370.08': up to women in consultation with their '1372.78': doctors to make this decision in the way '1375.179': that would be true of all other medical '1376.919': procedures I think over time he came to '1379.049': see ro as equally about women's autonomy '138.64': Jack Greenberg were all part of and in '1383.76': that it wasn't mostly about medical '1386.07': autonomy it was about women's autonomy '1388.62': by the time I got there I think he was '1390.299': thinking about it and much those two '1392.79': things to have more much more in '1394.41': equipoise in being important to him but '1397.41': he just thought it was not the kind of '1398.91': decision that should be made '14.25': stay around well excellent yeah your '1400.4': categorically by the state as opposed to '1402.75': by individuals given the circumstances '1405.33': they found themselves in a gym ropes '1408.5': publicly switched no I think I think she '141.4': fact that's what I did do when I was in '1413.07': had said by then that she regretted '1414.84': having had the abortion but it wasn't '1416.85': until maybe about five years ago there '1419.22': so that she filed a sort of coram nobis '1420.75': training in Roe overturned if you had '1427.53': this pause and Sarah Gregg I've been in '143.11': law school I worked there for each of '1430.59': violence constitutional law business for '1432.44': since eighties and you had to pick kind '1436.5': of the five seminal cases to teach a '1439.98': master's class '144.73': the summers I was in law school '1444.52': five cases since the 1980s startup '1448.0': America okay '1449.26': doing a little baseline yeah was your '1451.35': people so if I had to pick the cases '1455.71': since I started since I started well '146.2': and then I was a staff lawyer there for '1462.4': you'd have to teach District of Columbia '1467.71': against Heller the Second Amendment case '1470.08': in part because it's just it's like a '1472.42': kind of kaleidoscope of all the '1474.28': different methods of constitutional '1475.96': interpretation it's got a little bit of '1477.46': originalism a little bit of textualism '1479.32': some pragmatic consequentialism a little '148.03': several years before I went into '1482.41': bit of the structure a constitutional '1484.179': structural reasoning and so although I '1486.49': know I'm not sure that the opinion has '1488.2': big legs that is I'm not sure that '149.44': teaching and I still continued to work '1490.03': there's going to be a lot of laws struck '1491.559': down that would have otherwise been '1492.73': upheld or like it's it's a it's a real '1496.45': window into contemporary constitutional '1499.12': law so I definitely teach that I think I '1503.53': would teach Lawrence against Texas '1506.62': because for substantive due process '1508.929': cases it's one of the most interesting '151.36': with them on cases so I'd like to think '1512.2': ones and you can see echoes of all of '1516.28': the sort of different prior cases in it '1519.87': I would definitely teach the Affordable '1525.49': Care Act case because it reviews huge '1529.48': amounts of constitutional law up till '1531.309': then and it sets down some markers for '1534.67': the future '1539.2': I'd have to teach one of the race cases '154.45': of myself as being part of the extended '1542.27': on the question of which race case to '1544.34': teach you know on the one hand Gruder is '1548.09': very important but I think maybe parents '1550.309': involved against Seattle School District '1552.86': number one is more significant because '1555.64': there's more of a discussion of what the '1557.809': meaning of brown is for modern times and '156.94': Legal Defense Fund family did you ever '1562.159': it's more of a contemporary court and '1567.01': then I mean there are a lot of different '1570.409': candidates because it depends on what '1572.48': you're trying to do in the master class '1573.799': that is if you're trying to say which '1575.09': cases have had the most impact on '1577.99': everyday people's lives that's going to '1580.279': be a different question than if you're '1581.75': sort of saying which cases give you the '1583.669': greatest insight into kind of how the '1587.39': justices think about things '159.7': catch up with any of those oh oh yes '1592.56': today if the presentation you gave '1595.58': wonderful wonderful conversation with '1603.56': Jackson and currency current issues '1609.48': which is of course the Jackson mission '1613.05': here is to create the relevancy of '1614.73': justice Jackson today and you did a '1617.82': phenomenal job of doing just that '1620.81': well they didn't mention one of the ones '1623.19': where he's been most influential because '1624.54': it was a lay audience which is the steel '1627.57': seizure drill the kind of three-part '1630.42': framework for determining the '1632.7': relationship between the executive power '1634.59': and legislative power and '1637.55': constitutionality but I thought to try '1640.47': and do that with a lay audience would be '1642.27': almost impossible two years ago John '1645.24': created an event at Albany Law School '1647.73': and Phil Neil said if there's anything '165.64': absolutely so I knew Jack greenberg '1655.08': one thing it probably needs to be done '1656.49': in law school so we got to teach Jackson '1659.13': and specifically his ability to write '1661.5': this style and also taking it to one '1664.35': step further which is what you did today '1666.74': is it realistic well I mean I could see '167.92': quite well I knew bill Coleman who was '1672.21': teaching a seminar it would be a great '1674.61': seminar to teach one justice through a '1678.23': range of cases I mean I've often so I '1682.23': have a friend who's also a law professor '1683.88': who once suggested you should teach a '1685.23': course called some like 342 us and the '1688.32': case book for the course would simply be '1689.85': that volume of us reports because I find '1692.76': that you can often see really '1694.98': interesting relationships between cases '1697.35': that don't look like they're about the '1699.27': same thing but that are decided around '170.17': chairman of the board of the Legal '1702.18': the same time so I think it'd be '1703.65': wonderful to have a course that focused '1705.72': on a single justice I mean you'd want it '1707.94': obviously to be an advanced con law '1709.74': class or an advanced law class more '171.52': Defense Fund by the time I was a lawyer '1712.2': general '1712.68': so that it might also involve statutory '1714.87': interpretation as well as constitutional '1716.55': interpretation but I think the the '1720.21': chance to read the unaccepted decisions '1723.09': of in particular justice you actually '1724.86': get a sense of what a an opinion looks '1726.75': like as opposed to what's in the case '1728.64': book which is a little bit of fact and '173.98': there quite well I met Thurgood Marshall '1730.62': then boom into the money language yeah '1733.95': it'd be great thing to do you can't '1738.39': there's so much so far because you look '1742.38': in the crystal ball for the next five '1743.7': years the pen Carlin is there books you '1747.18': want to write are their positions you'd '1749.52': like to get is there the ambitions of '1753.27': panco oh I well one of my ambitions is '1756.45': to be a better teacher you know I love '1759.9': teaching I love with the clinical '176.71': when I was clerking at the Supreme Court '1761.88': teaching and the regular teaching a '1763.47': little bit of it is also you know after '1766.29': you've done any particular thing for a '1768.09': while you're always looking for a little '1769.29': something new to do so for a while I was '1773.07': kind of some training almost entirely on '1774.39': election law stuff and now for the last '1776.64': six or seven years my primary focus has '1779.13': been this clinic about litigates cases '1780.9': at the Supreme Court so I was thinking '1782.85': like maybe it's around time to figure '1785.25': out what the next thing is I don't have '1787.62': you know ambitions to change my life '1789.9': permanently inside in some way '179.59': I knew Constance Baker motley from when '1792.85': I'd like to spend some time working at '1795.22': the Department of Justice I think you '1797.14': know the right job came along at the '1798.61': right time it's always one of these '18.9': first time to Chautauqua what's your '1800.2': questions of timing and job and like I '1802.03': mean I was offered the job that I would '1804.1': now like to have I was offered in the '1806.89': Clinton administration but it was the '1808.63': wrong time and I was changing schools at '1811.84': that point and I'm single you know I '1815.11': didn't want to take two years it's kind '1817.87': of a two-year detour but as you get '182.32': I was working at the district court in '1820.78': older it seems less of a detour and more '1822.52': of an opportunity just to serve and then '1824.62': go back to being just a country law '1828.46': professor '183.91': New York she was the chief judge when I '1831.01': okay so President Obama gets reelected '1835.83': Ruth Bader Ginsburg resides where the '1840.929': Kennedys well to figure out who the top '1846.37': three candidates are you would need to '1847.78': know what year she resigns in and what '1849.73': the Senate looks like because if the '185.29': was clerking on that Court and Bob '1852.429': Democrats have control of the Senate '1854.08': you'll see a different nominee than if '1856.48': the Republicans have control of the '1858.22': Senate some of it depends on you know '1864.07': people people can kind of shoot out of '1866.11': nowhere in various ways you know Elena '1870.88': Kagan was the first justice in probably '1874.95': what twenty years to be since Justice '1879.52': Rehnquist was the and justice Powell was '188.11': Carter I knew just from you know hanging '1881.5': the first justice to go on the Supreme '1883.0': Court not coming out of an appellate '1885.58': court I mean justice O'Connor was a '1887.41': state court and to be really accurate '1890.83': justice Souter was mostly a state court '1892.809': judge he had only been on the first '1896.23': circuit for less than a year but that's '1898.12': a different kind of pick and so be '1900.22': interesting to see whether the president '1901.72': decides to think about somebody's held '1904.059': elective office I mean that was one of '1905.65': the points I was making in my lecture '1907.99': today '1908.95': institution is that we don't have any '1912.59': balance Precourt with real nitty gritty '1916.6': running for office experience so I could '1919.789': see something like Jennifer Granholm or '192.1': around with civil rights lawyers so I '1923.169': lisa madigan who's Attorney General of '1926.12': Illinois or camel Harris is Attorney '1929.809': General of California you know the '193.99': think of all of the people who were '1934.22': president hasn't put a lot of women on '1937.64': the federal courts of appeals yet so if '1940.58': that's where you're looking you know '1942.52': it's not clear that there's a deep bench '1945.529': of Democrats there if it's a Republican '1949.399': kind if it's a Republican Senate he's '1951.23': going to have to move considerably '1953.36': towards the middle it's pretty hard to '1956.57': know Mitt Romney Jordan is nice up '196.24': still alive who had argued in brown by '1964.97': that's that's I was a stock hold of '1969.289': American Motors Corporation just once '1970.97': you know that South Fargo and Detroit '1973.88': Tigers friends put that on respected '1976.85': Mitt Romney was fully Republican and '1979.58': he's got the choice there two or three '1982.57': candidates that jump out to use logical '1985.61': yeah so I I would think for him the kind '1989.27': of obvious choices would be Brett '199.48': the time I was an adult I've met I get I '1991.97': Kavanaugh who's on the DC circuit very '1994.159': young very conservative Jeff Sutton from '1996.62': the sixth circuit young and conservative '1999.169': ents smart although Jeff probably didn't '2.04': Gregor you're us your startup has been '20.34': impressions of all this well I've been '2001.27': do himself a big favor when he upheld '2004.75': the Affordable Care Act and then I would '2009.34': think Paul Clemente who's the Solicitor '201.58': managed to meet them all I mean all of '2011.26': General would be '2013.419': in the Bush administration be a kind of '2015.399': obvious candidate those straight me as '2018.999': the people most likely in a Romney '2021.969': administration I'm smiling because dolly '2024.309': lives would answered the same question '2026.979': in the same way well '203.17': the people argued on the right side yeah '2030.659': paranoid paranoid liberal she had a '2033.009': couple of a couple of mail names to the '2035.229': democratic posted oh yeah I mean III I '2037.779': convinced I mean '2039.249': Judge garland would be you know if it's '204.76': did you find that with that did you find '2041.559': in the next year or two '2042.879': who's on the DC Circuit would be a kind '2045.669': of obvious candidate you know now that '2050.649': Paul Watford has gotten onto the ninth '2053.649': circuit '2054.429': he might be an extremely attractive '2056.71': candidate most important question she's '2063.579': baseball became its antitrust exemption '2066.149': well you know I'm a big bill James fan '2068.679': and Bill James has a discussion of this '2070.839': where he says that if you got rid of the '2072.519': antitrust exemption what you might start '2074.74': to see is a kind of proliferation of a '2077.829': third or fourth majorly don't was coming '2081.069': out of minor league teams I'm not sure '2086.589': what function the antitrust exemption '2089.609': really performs today given that there's '2092.139': now an agreement between the Players '2094.48': Association and the teams right you know '2098.47': and and a huge percentage ever since '210.61': that you went to law school and were '2101.349': free agency a huge percentage of the '2104.769': revenue has moved over to the players '2106.48': I'm not sure that the existing players '2108.43': would favor getting rid of me and I '2109.99': trust exemption such an anachronism yeah '2113.98': yeah but hard to see that it's actually '2116.92': having much effect on on the game itself '2119.4': and the real question is how you '2121.93': maintain competitive balance if you if '2124.569': you want to maintain the sport the real '2126.039': question is how to maintain competitive '2127.93': balance and without the antitrust '2129.22': exemption '213.37': there a lot of your classmates who found '2130.33': it might be harder easier Supreme Court '2133.72': Historical Society is celebrating the '2135.73': 40th anniversary of that decision and '2137.7': they have working with two podium '2144.82': individuals and a judge to sort of '2147.28': reenact the case and that simply take it '2149.5': through everything for me there I think '2152.35': folks do it all as far as any guidance '2154.15': no no I know flood against tuna was way '2157.21': before my time '2157.96': yeah but thank you I know I know but '216.67': that social part of the practice of law '2161.5': every time I say something critical '2163.75': about the Chief Justice and being an '2165.28': umpire diminish my chances of being '2168.43': invited to the flood against Hugh '2170.11': celebration well tell me about that well '2177.79': you wrote that did you get feedback did '2179.41': you like no not well the Chief Justice '2182.2': doesn't blow back there did somebody I '2184.39': mean if there's no no I mean I'd if '2188.02': there I was at an event where I talked '219.81': important well I think you know I have a '2190.66': about this and this may be kind of music '2196.03': so has an event where I talked about '2197.26': this a little bit of know you know but '2199.0': Chief Justice and the umpire analogy '22.41': hearing about Chautauqua for years when '2201.43': like and efforts Justice Thomas was had '2204.22': been there and he came up to me and said '2206.5': hey give you a little bicep a nice oh '2208.42': yeah sure mr. justice he said don't hold '2210.22': back '2210.49': tell us what you really think have you '2212.56': got a stop being that you've got to stop '2214.09': being so reticent so no you know the '2218.98': Chief Justice isn't just as a big boy '2220.96': yeah '2223.22': by the way Jen talked about Thursday '2226.01': I've been in social situations where '2227.48': he's been there in by far and away when '2229.16': all the justices are there and it '223.36': lot of friends from Moscow who have done '2230.78': Supreme Court Oracle society man well '2232.46': he's very outgoing you can get access '2234.619': immediate access to everybody but him '2236.27': because time it's only because you've '2238.25': got 40 50 people hanging on I mean it's '2240.74': just doctors you can't get them no he's '2243.14': got more social skills in one-on-one '2245.54': than the average surgeries are just '2247.13': essentially he slapped more people on '2249.829': the back down and all the reason of the '225.13': public interest practice or either for '2254.42': current justices and you've written '2257.69': about them what's what's your sense of '2264.73': Roberts decision you know how do you '2268.19': read that in the healthcare act I don't '227.68': private groups like the Legal Defense '2272.39': wanna say Obamacare because you don't '2273.5': want me to say about that well wrong '2278.06': news head I mean I don't want to crawl '2280.91': into his head I I was not surprised at '2284.27': all by most of what he wrote that is I '2286.28': was not surprised that he upheld it on '2287.839': taxing power grounds and I was not '229.45': Fund or for the government so yeah I '2291.89': surprised that he thought there was a '2294.68': spending Clause problem with Medicaid '2296.96': because those seem to me to be pretty '2299.93': predictable what did surprise me is how '2302.3': much he went out of his way to decide '2305.21': the Commerce Clause issue when it wasn't '2306.98': necessary to the bottom line because as '2308.9': you know he spent a lot of time talking '2310.849': about how we should did not decide the '2313.52': things we don't need to decide and then '2315.829': in this case he went out of his way to '2317.329': do it and he's done that before that is '2320.27': his opinion for the court in the new '2323.51': Mudd no case which is a case about '2325.9': constitutionality of section 5 of the '2327.61': Voting Rights Act the court ultimately '2329.08': decided it on very narrow statutory '233.47': think a fair number of the people I knew '2331.54': grounds but along the way he said a lot '2334.03': of nasty things about the Voting Rights '2335.5': Act um you know he was a clerk for '2341.5': Justice Rehnquist and observed Justice '2343.99': Rehnquist's Supreme Court career he is a '2346.72': huge fan of Chief Justice John Marshall '2349.72': and has thought a lot about John '235.81': in law school were very committed to '2351.34': Marshalls career and both of those men '2353.83': both Marshall and Rehnquist were '2357.19': extremely strategic and kept their eye '2360.91': on the long view and that's true for the '2364.93': Chief Justice as well '2365.92': the man is 57 years old he does not need '2369.67': to take all the cards off the table in '237.25': doing civil rights work and have done it '2371.62': one hand and I think his decision his '2376.45': opinion in the affordable care act case '2379.33': was an extremely strategic decision so '2384.01': that somebody and all sides could have '2386.32': think once they read it they read it '2389.25': fine glass they can get something out of '2392.05': that well he it's designed to make him '2394.99': appear statesman like right which is he '2399.55': sort of says look you there's this '24.029': I was growing up because my grandmother '240.04': in one form or another '2401.74': passage towards the beginning of his '2403.72': opinion where he says it's not our job '2405.73': to save the people from the consequences '2408.07': of their political decisions our job is '241.27': their careers constitutional law of all '2410.08': to apply the law well what is that '2412.42': supposed to mean '2413.35': and not our job to save the people from '2415.45': their consequences their political '2416.65': decisions in other words saying if you '2418.21': pass a stupid statute like this don't '2419.98': expect us to fix it so I think it was '2424.48': designed to make him appear '2428.01': non-political right he's he's turning '2432.19': his back on the Tea Party agenda '2434.289': case while also allowing him to say a '2437.739': bunch of nasty things about the kind of '2442.479': liberal welfare state and I think he '2446.819': gained a fair amount of capital from the '2449.38': decision there that will stand him in '245.74': that was was at the area which obviously '2451.329': good stead when he spends it on issues '2453.039': he cares more about I don't think the '2454.689': Commerce Clause is the biggest issue for '2457.059': the chief justice that he cares about in '2458.829': constitutional law but certainly don't '2461.529': think the taxing powers Robert Jackson '2465.279': Center you're here today the thrilled '2467.199': you are here today and we are here to '2469.749': advance the legacy of Justice Robert '2472.029': Jackson I had Michael Berenbaum whom you '2474.429': met sitting at seat just yesterday '2476.559': asking him you know if he had some '2478.599': advice for us for only 11 years old or '248.85': established a reputation well the kind '2481.119': work-in-progress as to areas of which to '2484.209': find ourselves and if you had to give us '2487.509': some guidance panel well if you think '2490.9': about justice Jackson right what are the '2492.999': kind of things he's most known for the '2496.539': Nuremberg trials which obviously have '2499.239': continued bearing on the world today '25.56': and her first cousin came every summer '2502.839': because of '2505.44': the rise of international war crimes '2508.98': tribunals and Human Rights Tribunal '2511.17': sunlight I mean obviously that's one '2513.78': area where you know he serves as a kind '2516.869': of focal point for the United States on '2518.819': that and then the other thing I think is '252.85': of irony about that is when I got to law '2523.05': legal writing to go back to the point '2526.2': you were making about Phil Neal earlier '2527.819': that justice Jackson was such a clear '2531.0': writer and thinker I think it'd just be '2534.42': really useful to think about how do you '2538.55': perpetuate that legacy I mean you know '2542.46': you can read a Robert Jackson opinion '2544.319': today and it speaks to you whereas you '2547.5': know you read some of the opinions from '2548.97': the if you know from the Warren burger '255.31': school my first semester in law school I '2554.42': Rehnquist and Roberts courts and they're '2557.88': just impenetrable '2561.35': or they're impenetrable sort of masses '2565.49': of soupy mass with a couple of quotable '2568.25': lines thrown and the thing that's '257.26': was assigned to constitutional law with '2570.32': interesting you know and made it a '2572.06': little hard when I was preparing my talk '2573.92': for today for the Jackson centers '2575.18': sometimes the best Jackson quotations '2577.55': are two or three paragraphs long because '2581.09': he's setting up an argument and then '2583.66': explaining the argument as he goes '2585.71': through it '2586.22': I mean he's not he isn't even though '2587.96': he's got some of the greatest one-liners '2589.64': in Supreme Court history that's not '259.72': Robert Bork so I'm not sure that what I '2591.47': actually what makes him the greatest '2593.0': writer in some ways and so getting '2595.49': people to focus more on legal writing '2597.94': would you do that boy you know that's an '2601.73': interesting question I mean I think it'd '2606.77': be great to have to have you know have '2610.49': something that gives people a sense of '2612.11': how good his writing was you know some '2617.39': of it depends on which audiences you're '2618.86': aiming at I mean I think having a legal '2621.71': writing thing where you bring in judges '2623.48': and talk to them about legal write it I '2625.61': mean especially like state Supreme Court '2627.74': justice is often don't get much training '263.65': learned in first-year constitutional law '2630.5': and how to write an opinion or how to '2631.88': think about it '2637.569': what hurry black would mean to pimp oh '2641.259': he was he was everything he was just '2644.539': such a great boss and he and he was so '2648.47': meticulous I mean one of the things that '2650.269': he really taught me was attention to '2652.549': detail because he was very much a detail '2654.799': man and just an extremely brave man I '2658.67': mean the year before I clerked for the '266.49': stuck I I knew I disagreed with him and '2660.65': summer that I clerk from your that that '2663.529': previous spring you know when he came '2665.45': back to start eating breakfast with us '2667.94': we had a US Marshal and a Supreme Court '2669.71': police officer with us every morning at '2672.38': breakfast and the reason for that is '2673.64': that he had been shot out the year '2675.769': before he got up to go to the kitchen '2678.74': and a bullet came through the window and '2680.66': landed in the chair it did sitting in '2682.97': mmm one of the things he then ended up '2685.039': with it was a huge kerfuffle with his '2687.829': insurance company because there was a '2689.329': pair of upholstered chairs and the FBI '2692.21': came and like cut out a huge chunk of '2694.609': the chair that the bullet had gone into '2696.289': and he wanted to have both the chairs '2697.97': recovered and the insurance company said '2699.74': well there's nothing wrong with the '270.85': I didn't really know why I disagreed '2700.7': other chair so they've been over the '2703.339': back and forth over the chairs but you '2706.339': know he he was very principled he stuck '2709.099': to his principles and he was '2712.869': unbelievably hard-working I mean however '2715.13': hard I work I never work as hard as he '2717.38': worked '2719.52': you're the eighth speaker in Robert H '272.92': with him because I think for me the '2721.95': ejection lectureship and you've raised '2724.65': the bar very very high today '2728.16': whoo so how lucky that you're doing this '2730.26': that Mambo thing and everybody can get '2732.6': under it more easily now well that's who '2735.69': would you recommend to Jen and I next '2738.6': year '2738.99': oh so thinking about like we've had '274.87': difficulty in the way he taught us he '2743.49': solicitor jabber solicit think about '2745.74': like who is it that I love to listen to '2748.53': when they talk about law that you '2752.04': haven't had because you've had Paul '2753.78': Clemente company yeah and you've had '2755.82': Dahlia who I love listening to you know '276.46': was very fast very quick very witty and '2765.6': Bill Marshall is a really interesting '2767.66': guy - I find him just really interesting '2772.62': to listen to '2780.41': in terms of in terms of '2783.82': you know one person who'd be interesting '2785.89': to have because he's now off the bench '2787.66': and he's talking a lot more frankly '2790.21': about a lot of stuff is Vaughn Walker '2791.5': who was a federal district judge in '2793.51': California he's a really interesting '2795.43': speaker and obviously decide a huge '2797.62': number of important cases including the '2799.36': California marriage case I would think '28.92': and so I was excited to get a chance to '280.9': you're a first-year law student and so '2802.12': he'd be super interesting '2808.41': just kind of thinking '2816.84': you know my colleague Michael McConnell '2818.61': is a super interesting speaker on '282.58': even if you know you disagree with him '2821.13': virtually everything '2826.18': one person you know because I think you '2830.23': know who might be really interesting is '2831.46': sherrilyn Ifill he's a professor at the '2833.499': University of Maryland who has is '2837.49': writing right now about judicial '2839.38': confirmation hmm processes and she's an '284.05': it's hard to formulate what your '2843.069': unbelievably great and dynamic speaker '2846.42': so she might be a good person '2851.02': I should show you the clip of Dalia '2852.76': talking about you I love doll yeah I '2856.0': love dolly she's so into she wrote she '2859.48': wrote a piece this past year that was my '286.06': disagreements are and I think I didn't '2861.369': favorite piece of all time about '2863.17': corporate personhood it was about this '2865.27': little nothing burg case called that I '2867.28': think was FCC against AT&T it was a case '2869.68': about an exemption under the Freedom of '2872.829': Information Act for things that would '2876.849': interfere with the personal privacy of '2879.46': an individual and AT&T said well we '288.61': teach constitutional law until I've been '2882.79': should be able to protect ourselves here '2884.47': and that Court ultimately helped that '2887.2': they shouldn't and that Chief Justice '2888.579': makes some jokes about AT&T and not '2891.19': taking anything personally in this '2892.54': opinion but she wrote a description of '2894.7': the oral argument the case that was '2895.93': written completely as if 18t were a '2898.21': person and it's just it's just marvelous '290.38': teaching for quite some time in part '2901.98': question that is often asked oh no you '2904.809': know me you should definitely also think '2906.25': about his Walter Dellinger who is a '2908.17': great speaker and it was not on the '2912.22': court during the Robert Jackson use but '2913.96': was a Hugo black Clarke in the 1960s '2919.42': question that gets off in a spiral a '292.6': because I didn't want to have my '2921.76': radio guy is if you've had a chance to '2924.97': have dinner '2927.19': '- John Gemini anybody in history you can' '2933.01': choose three guests who did related '2937.24': somebody you're fine '2938.47': just extremely fascinating - really well '2942.24': that's it you know that's such a hard '2944.44': question cuz okay you want to have '2948.7': dinner with us somebody who will '2949.57': actually talk to you about that stuff as '295.63': students experience constitutional line '2951.79': opposed to somebody who won't talk about '2955.69': right so you might be really interested '2957.82': in knowing what somebody thinks but if '2959.98': they're very guarded then the dinner '2961.99': would be kind of painful so no no I know '2964.69': but I'm a law professor so I would '2966.82': really love to have dinner with Franklin '2969.04': Roosevelt I would really love to have '297.61': the way I had experienced it as the '2971.95': dinner with Franklin Roosevelt's and '2975.58': although I think I would have to like be '2978.16': extremely careful and sit at the other '2980.5': end of the table I'd actually love to '2982.15': have dinner with Lyndon Johnson as just '2984.64': reading the last of the following the '2986.83': Latin most recent in the bottoms of the '2988.0': Kara biography I'm just fascinated by '299.56': professor having a very strong point of '2990.94': him I just you know I'd love to and the '2997.12': other person I would love to have dinner '2998.74': with because I just love to know more '3001.11': about what made her who she was is '3003.42': Fannie Lou Hamer hmm I mean you know '3007.32': where did you get the kind of courage to '301.27': view that kind of overwhelmed whatever '3011.49': stick with it like '3016.35': this is an aside I recently interviewed '3018.9': Andrew Young and he talked they gave him '3022.14': a flash cards all the people who civil '3024.63': rights movement it was I had 20 minute '3027.27': stop that was all I had '3028.35': and I gave it to him as a baseball cards '3030.21': yeah just tell me who's left throws even '3033.21': further like oh yeah this is great '304.24': values you came into law school with so '3045.78': you are terrific and unfortunately '3051.32': looking forward to it I'm looking '3053.64': forward to what's the line about you '3055.71': know you can summarize every Jewish '3057.15': holiday in nine words they tried to kill '3059.1': us they didn't let see Cindy just texted '306.43': those tried to be very careful that I '3065.04': she's going to the restaurant '3066.63': I know we have there was she's tagging '3068.04': on two verses you got the word out right '3069.6': so was one of the partner we're gonna '3077.07': turn fishermen six okay perfect '308.14': teach my conservative students how to be '31.859': come up and when I arrived I was just '311.44': the best constitutional law lawyers they '313.24': can be as well as teaching students '315.28': whose views on the issues coincide more '3164.359': you '317.86': with mine of course finding yourself '3185.92': you '3209.74': you '323.71': from the United States Supreme Court day '326.44': one when you walked in there and well '3275.81': you '333.25': this is gonna sound odd but I actually '337.15': felt more comfortable arguing in the US '34.02': struck by how incredibly gorgeous '340.84': Supreme Court then I felt arguing in '342.88': several of the courts of appeals where '344.95': I've argued in part because I clerked at '3455.96': you '346.75': the court and so the building was '348.82': familiar to me the personnel on the '350.62': court were familiar to me you don't have '352.63': the problem when you go to the Supreme '354.01': Court that you can handle on courts of '355.36': appeals which is you don't know who your '356.71': panel is until you get there so you've '359.53': thought about you've briefed the case '36.8': Chautauqua is a combination of just '361.419': for the people you're actually gonna '362.47': argue in front of the thing that's '364.21': amazing about the argument is how fast '366.37': it goes '367.6': mean a my first argument I only had 10 '3696.23': you '370.99': minutes because I was splitting time '372.4': with the Solicitor General and I feel '375.82': like I didn't take a breath the whole '377.29': time I was up there it just pushed by me '381.0': but there's something totally '383.17': exhilarating I sometimes say to my '385.72': students that arguing in front of the '387.79': Supreme Court is the most fun you can '389.26': have in 30 minutes in public wearing '39.45': physical gorgeousness and total charm '391.54': your clothes standing up being all by '393.37': yourself doing nothing but talking and I '396.37': I continue to feel that although I have '398.89': to say that the current court is so much '402.4': more conservative than both the court I '404.59': clerked on and the court I started '407.02': practicing in front of that's it's a '409.12': little less fun to go up there today '410.59': because it's a little harder to win the '412.27': cases that I tend to be arguing I '419.11': clicked for justice baikman in October '42.469': you know the houses and the people '421.72': term 1985 so it was the last year that '424.21': Chief Justice burger was chief justice '433.32': sure so I'll do them in order of '437.14': seniority because when justice Blackmun '439.69': used to come back from the conference '442.21': where it's just the nine justices in the '444.16': room and nobody else he would read us '446.29': his notes and he always read them in the '448.75': order the justices went which is the '45.629': walking around and everything was just '450.4': order of seniority so Chief Justice '452.92': burger he looked like a chief justice he '456.91': really did he by the time I got there '460.75': justice Blackmun and he although they '462.28': had been friends growing up and justice '464.32': Blackmun had actually been the best man '466.45': at chief justice burgers wedding by the '469.09': time I got there they really weren't '470.08': speaking to each other so I think my '471.97': views of the chief are colored somewhat '473.92': by how justice Blackmun felt about him '477.88': but the chief was very into ceremony he '48.239': it's just been delightful I hope to come '482.14': was fairly conservative not super '488.59': imaginative '490.68': my first encounter with him was there '493.11': was a party at the beginning of the term '495.54': for all of the clerks and the justices '497.37': dining-room and he came up to me and he '499.86': looked at me and he had been talking to '502.83': justice rehnquist and he looked at me '504.33': and he said well there there certainly '506.16': are a lot of you here this year and my '509.49': first reaction is how does he know I'm '51.84': back no I'm the first lawyer in the '510.69': Jewish but he actually met women because '514.29': there were seven women and so I said I '516.66': realized that's what he meant and I said '520.02': well you know justice blackmun has three '521.52': female clerks this year and it was the '523.02': first time in justice I had three and '524.76': the chief justice to me said well I '526.77': guess he's going to need a lot of help '528.09': huh and I said no no we're gonna do all '532.95': the cooking and cleaning ourselves but '536.22': so my experience what the chief was '539.75': somewhat odd justice justice Brennan was '545.43': the senior associate justice at the time '547.68': and he was extremely gregarious and '550.59': outgoing so he would you know how I how '555.6': I he would say and he had that kind of '557.37': New Jersey accent the other thing he '559.02': taught me I think this is one of the '560.58': things I've never forgotten this you '562.2': taught me how if you have to shake a lot '564.12': of people's hands to shake hands with '565.65': them which is you extend your hand and '567.36': then you grab their elbow because then '569.61': if they squeeze your hand too hard you '571.2': can squeeze their elbow and they'll '573.36': release their grip and he told me he '574.98': learned that in politics he was very '579.45': gregarious he was he made an effort I '584.4': think and I think it was a strategic '586.29': effort in addition to just his natural '587.97': outgoing personality to get to know a '590.22': lot of the clerks in the building '591.54': because I think he felt that that helped '593.36': him to enlist them kind of on his side '597.27': in a way justice White was a leader '6.45': advanced here every but it was exciting '600.78': frankfurter type person '604.46': yeah I think in a way I think in a way '608.02': justice frankfurter I'm sorry justice '611.089': white was the second most senior '614.029': associate justice he had given up '617.3': playing basketball with the clerk's by '618.98': the time I was there apparently a couple '620.54': of years before a clerk who had been '622.19': just frustrated by the justices somewhat '624.86': over rough play had just cold-cocked him '626.57': during a game but he's still putted with '629.149': his clerks for money after every '63.03': family I mean my grandmother's brother '630.529': afternoon and it was interesting my year '635.57': at the courts the division among the '639.83': justices the thing that most seemed to '643.399': divide them was there were a couple of '645.86': abortion cases and Lawrence against '648.92': Texas which was a case about the Georgia '65.07': in law was a lawyer but I didn't spend '652.43': sodomy I'm sorry not Lawrence against '654.2': Texas Bowers against Hardwick the case '655.94': about the Georgia sodomy statute which '657.77': was ultimately overruled by the Supreme '659.24': Court later in Lawrence against Texas '66.689': much time with him I actually decided to '661.19': and so there was a there was a little '663.29': bit of tension between justice Blackmun '665.18': and justice white because they were on '667.279': opposite sides of this two cases the '670.97': next justice down was justice Marshall '673.87': and by the time I got to the Supreme '676.82': Court he was I think he was he was quite '68.97': become a lawyer because when I was a '680.54': old I mean there were five of the '682.339': justices were over 75 the year I was '684.38': there he was quite old he wasn't in the '686.54': best of health and so he moved very '689.779': slowly and I think he was kind of angry '692.6': and alienated by then quite a bit from '694.79': the court but occasionally if he stopped '697.94': by his chambers in the afternoon he '699.68': would be in a storytelling mood and he '701.27': would just he was a marvellous '702.83': storyteller so you tell stories about '704.39': his time in practice I think you know I '707.3': think he was one of the obviously one of '71.64': junior in high school over that summer I '710.72': the most formative lawyers of the 20th '712.73': century but I think he's one of those '715.1': people if you were writing his biography '716.6': most of the good stuff happened before '718.76': he got to the Supreme Court as opposed '720.74': to some of the justices for whom the '722.75': Supreme Court really was the pinnacle of '724.85': their achievement '726.65': then there was just a splatter then came '733.85': justice Powell justice Powell had been '737.21': sick the year before and had been out '738.86': for quite some time and is still a '74.43': read simple justice which is a book by '741.35': little frail when I got there but you '743.69': know and kind of extraordinarily '745.48': gentlemanly one of the clerk's my year '748.78': had a serious had a serious medical '752.71': issue and justice justice Powell sent '756.92': flowers to the clerk afterwards you know '759.89': just the charming man um he switched his '76.38': Richard Kluger about the litigation that '765.05': vote in one of the biggest cases my year '766.85': Bowers against Hardwick and I think '769.01': justice Blackmun was convinced the chief '772.31': had lobbied him very hard on that case '774.88': he was the swing vote when I was there '777.35': and so a lot of issues so there was a '78.689': led up to Brown against Board of '780.11': lot of concentration on him after him '783.41': came justice Stevens '786.74': oh no justice rehnquist came and then '789.08': just as soon as it justice rehnquist '790.91': you know when he was an Associate '792.44': Justice I think was a little bit looser '795.83': than he was when he was chief justice '798.28': although the interesting thing for me is '8.28': today you had probably the largest crowd '80.13': Education and I decided I wanted to be a '800.63': when I went back to visit justice '802.43': blackmun after justice rehnquist had '805.7': taken over and became chief justice '807.02': rehnquist everybody loved him as chief '809.09': justice he's thought to be extremely '811.19': fair and balanced and straightforward in '813.74': a way that I think the liberal justices '815.48': had not felt about just as Chief Justice '818.54': burger but when I was there he was still '821.27': a relatively junior justice he was quite '823.37': often in dissent much more so than when '827.39': he became chief justice but very '829.79': friendly very casual his clerks were out '83.759': civil rights lawyer and work for the '832.73': of the building by 6 p.m. '835.27': midnight then after him came justice '838.0': Stevens who was exactly the same you '84.84': n-double-a-cp Legal Defense Fund so that '841.39': know interestingly quirky and always in '846.04': a bowtie he only had two clerks the '848.53': other justices all had four and there's '852.01': very much kind of his own his own person '854.92': and then came justice O'Connor who was '857.02': very junior obviously when I was there '858.61': she was in her I guess her fourth or '859.84': fifth term on the court and you know '864.18': extremely personable she ran a exercise '868.14': class for all the female clerks at 8:00 '87.96': book inspired me to become a lawyer 'no '871.45': a.m. and we were invited to go to it but '873.28': unfortunately justice Blackmun had '874.96': breakfast with all of his clerks at 8:00 '876.67': a.m. so I think we'd managed to get to '878.56': the exercise class two or three days '880.12': when he was out of town but other than '881.68': that we didn't go justice blackmun wrote '889.9': to me one of the more interesting '892.29': decisions and oh honey school yeah do '897.31': you guys ever have any reason to talk '898.81': about that well yes so I think it would '902.65': have been justice Blackmun's it might '907.48': have been his 80th birthday but it was '909.01': one of his big birthdays we're having a '91.32': snow there's a one discussion in that '910.57': clerks reunion and as you know in flood '912.97': against Kuhn which is the best buy in '914.68': entrust case there's this kind of '917.89': passage at the beginning of it that's a '919.84': list of famous baseball players and it '922.0': goes on and on and apparently if he '923.5': started out with about ten of them then '925.27': various people around the building would '926.53': suggest people and then somebody said '927.94': well but if you're going to include you '929.74': know if you're going to include tinker's '931.63': you have to include Evers own occlude '934.0': Evers you have to include chances so '935.2': they just that list kind of expanded and '938.41': expanded and there was a story in the '94.259': book about justice jackson and his then '940.66': Brethren that right after the opinion '944.89': came down somebody said to him how could '947.44': you not include Jimmie Foxx and he said '949.72': Jimmie Foxx was '952.24': and the president no he's not and the '954.77': Justice went back and looked at the list '956.36': and sure enough Jimmie Foxx is not on '957.71': the list and the line in the brethren is '960.77': something like and justice Biden said '962.09': I'll never forgive myself so for his for '965.33': his um for his 80th birthday I think it '968.66': was his 80th we decided we were going to '970.82': get him one of Jimmy Fox's bags and we '973.85': looked into it and we could not find one '975.83': but it turns out that Hilary Jim Bradley '978.05': I think that's what the Louisville '979.22': Slugger company's name is they keep the '98.189': law clerk William Rehnquist and the '981.35': measurements of every player on file for '984.23': their backs and so we went to them and '986.15': we had them replicate one of Jimmy Fox's '990.41': bats and we had it mounted on a plaque '992.57': and on the bottom it just said I will '994.88': never forgive myself '996.32': hav and we gave it to him the clerk saw '999.32': gave it to him for his his his birthday

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Pam Karlan (2012) interview

On Aug. 22, 2012, the Robert H. Jackson Center hosted Prof. Pam Karlan. She was the annual Robert H. Jackson lecturer at Chautauqua Institution. The interview was conducted by Greg Peterson and covered her career, reflections on her mentor Justice Harry Blackmun and legacy of Robert H. Jackson. For further information, see www.roberthjackson.org.

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'0.299': thank you for coming by the way this is '10.889': we've ever had for a Robert Jackson '1003.58': I saw it actually posted in his chambers '1007.9': the day he died after his funeral we all '101.39': famous or now infamous memorandum from '1010.36': went back to the chambers to hang out '1011.74': and there was the bat which I think was '1014.05': several people asked for it but I think '1016.24': it was given to the Library of Congress '1017.62': and the other thing about baseball that '1019.45': I is he had been a friend of the '1021.49': Griffiths who owned the then the '1024.459': Minneapolis Millers later the twins and '1027.97': so we would talk about baseball a lot it '1030.16': at breakfast and one day in the '1036.31': afternoon he I was in the upstairs '1038.8': chambers and I got a phone call used to '104.579': justice to justice Jackson from justice '1040.12': come down the Justice has somebody he '1042.52': wants you to meet and this group called '1044.35': the email verbum society was having its '1046.51': reunion in Washington I guess there's a '1048.13': Cubs thing and so there were these three '1053.5': guys and like bad fitting sports coats '1055.36': in his office and he introduced them to '1058.0': me and two of them I don't remember the '1059.14': name is because I'm not a Cubs fan at '1061.24': all but the last one was Andy Pafko who '1063.52': had been a Dodger as well '1065.96': at a nice conversation when afternoon '1068.299': with Andy Pafko '107.909': Rehnquist as you went through that '1070.789': and the last baseball thing I'll tell '1072.289': you is when justice blackmun retired '1074.539': from the Supreme Court I was asked to do '1076.639': one of the tributes for him in the '1078.379': Harvard Law Review and one of the things '1082.549': I talked about in the in the tribute was '1089.33': this article that been written called '1091.519': your law baseball quiz I think I told '1093.2': you about this last night where they '1094.34': compare different justices to different '1097.96': famous baseball players and I said that '110.13': clipper book in you and you've read '1100.85': you know so I tell the story of you know '1102.47': Jackie Jenson is like Byron white '1104.509': because they were both better at '1105.499': football and then I say you know and '1108.59': they compared the guy to this compared '111.93': about the activities of Thurgood '1110.769': Felix Frankfurter do among other things '1112.909': Wayne Terwilliger and I and I and then '1115.46': the art of I just set up foot and I said '1116.99': who is Wayne Terwilliger and so and then '1121.279': ultimately I said that if I had to pick '1122.99': somebody for justice blackmun to be like '1124.94': I had thought originally about Bobby '1126.529': Brown because justice like they wanted '1128.6': to be a doctor just like Bobby Brown '113.909': Marshall and William Coleman and the '1130.129': became a doctor and that I thought of '1132.32': you know a couple of other people like '1134.299': that you know Charlie Gehringer because '1136.549': it was a little tiny you know little '1141.32': tiny second baseman and you know a great '1143.529': fielder but not not a big batter and '1146.72': ultimately I came out with Dave Winfield '1148.58': which people might not have guessed '1149.779': because both of them came from st. Paul '1151.759': and made something of themselves both of '1153.86': them played the game long after many of '1155.809': their contemporaries had retired and '1157.279': both of them owed their start to a '1159.44': convicted but later pardoned Watergate '1161.629': felon to a later I'm sorry to a later '1164.809': pardoned Watergate felon because '1168.1': Blackman got his seat on the Supreme '1169.82': Court from Nixon and '117.21': whole cadre of people who were working '1172.94': George Steinbrenner's the person who '1174.68': gave Dave Winfield his biggest contract '1177.25': and so when I know sir yes so I read '1179.72': this and I wouldn't you know and the '1181.34': next time I visited the Justice that '1182.75': Justice said oh I really liked your your '1185.54': tribute a lot but come with me and he '1187.4': led me down the hall into a storeroom he '119.79': on the case did that inspire you to the '1190.67': was bending down at the Thurgood '1191.81': Marshall Center and he pulled out a copy '1193.82': of the baseball encyclopedia and he said '1197.09': this is Wayne Terwilliger and took me to '12.63': lecture and certainly the largest to '1200.45': the page twig I'd never heard of him and '1204.98': I'm a baseball fan and I'd never heard '1206.92': okay yeah I think until a few years ago '1209.33': still in baseball as a coach didn't even '1212.99': talk about Roe versus Wade ooh yes '1214.58': yeah um so the first time you talked '1216.95': about Roe vs. Wade is when I went to '1218.51': interview with him he had a justice '1221.48': blackmun would have been a tax lawyer '1223.1': before he was then counsel at the Mayo '1224.99': Clinic and he had exactly the habits you '1227.63': would expect from somebody who'd been a '1228.86': very good tax it's like incredibly '123.99': extent that you could find that that's a '1230.48': meticulous and precise and so when he '1232.34': interviewed people he had this long list '1234.32': of questions written out and he asked '1236.63': you the questions they wrote down the '1237.74': answers in pencil and towards the end of '1240.47': the interview he said now I want to ask '1242.54': you a question and I want you to think '1244.25': about this very carefully '1249.509': now I've written an opinion that's a '1252.239': little bit controversial and some people '1254.759': find that the kind of opinion that they '1257.549': have trouble with and you need to think '126.03': lineage that you could have '1260.549': about whether you would be comfortable '1261.809': working for me '1263.009': given the opinion and I'm sort of '1264.749': racking my brain to think like what '1266.249': opinion is he talking about '1268.799': and he said you may have heard of it and '127.74': yeah well I you know I decided I wanted '1271.049': now I'm thinking okay what is he gonna '1272.489': say '1272.909': he said it's called Roe against Wade and '1275.19': you know I'm a little bit of a kind of '1277.799': smartass sometimes and all I could think '1279.539': is just don't say oh my god you're that '1281.399': Harry Blackmun you're kidding but he '1284.519': actually had had a clerk apparently '1286.409': several years before who had in the '1288.119': middle of the year had a religious '1290.489': revelation that Roe was wrong and so '1295.139': that was the first time that I had a '1296.58': conversation then we had two abortion '1299.1': cases my year at the Supreme Court and '130.24': to work for the n-double-a-cp Legal '1300.96': it's actually the kind of high watermark '1303.359': of abortion rights at the Supreme Court '1305.07': was one of those cases the kids called '1306.45': Thornburg against American College of '1308.039': Obstetricians and Gynaecologists which '131.89': Defense Fund which is the organization '1310.649': the Justice wrote and so we had a fair '1313.859': number of conversations about abortion '1316.259': and he was convinced that you know that '1318.659': was also the first time that there was '1319.98': five to four who done a poll the kind of '1322.85': central premise of row because the Chief '1325.289': Justice which side so he talked about a '1327.419': lot then and then as you probably know '133.57': that bill Coleman and Charlie black and '1330.389': he used to teach at the Aspen Institute '1332.159': in the summer a justice and society '1335.039': class and he spent a day of that talking '1337.889': about the decision process leading up to '1339.929': Roe and I was there '1342.74': what do you say well he thought I mean '1345.87': it's interesting I think although he '1348.12': wouldn't I think he wouldn't put it '1350.309': quite this way his thoughts about ro '1352.02': evolved somewhat over time this when he '1355.29': started on the case his major you know '1358.95': the major focus for him was the practice '136.87': Lou and Thurgood Marshall and '1362.34': of medicine because he had come out of '1363.99': being counsel at the Mayo Clinic and he '1365.91': took very seriously they did it this was '1367.83': a medical procedure and therefore it was '1370.08': up to women in consultation with their '1372.78': doctors to make this decision in the way '1375.179': that would be true of all other medical '1376.919': procedures I think over time he came to '1379.049': see ro as equally about women's autonomy '138.64': Jack Greenberg were all part of and in '1383.76': that it wasn't mostly about medical '1386.07': autonomy it was about women's autonomy '1388.62': by the time I got there I think he was '1390.299': thinking about it and much those two '1392.79': things to have more much more in '1394.41': equipoise in being important to him but '1397.41': he just thought it was not the kind of '1398.91': decision that should be made '14.25': stay around well excellent yeah your '1400.4': categorically by the state as opposed to '1402.75': by individuals given the circumstances '1405.33': they found themselves in a gym ropes '1408.5': publicly switched no I think I think she '141.4': fact that's what I did do when I was in '1413.07': had said by then that she regretted '1414.84': having had the abortion but it wasn't '1416.85': until maybe about five years ago there '1419.22': so that she filed a sort of coram nobis '1420.75': training in Roe overturned if you had '1427.53': this pause and Sarah Gregg I've been in '143.11': law school I worked there for each of '1430.59': violence constitutional law business for '1432.44': since eighties and you had to pick kind '1436.5': of the five seminal cases to teach a '1439.98': master's class '144.73': the summers I was in law school '1444.52': five cases since the 1980s startup '1448.0': America okay '1449.26': doing a little baseline yeah was your '1451.35': people so if I had to pick the cases '1455.71': since I started since I started well '146.2': and then I was a staff lawyer there for '1462.4': you'd have to teach District of Columbia '1467.71': against Heller the Second Amendment case '1470.08': in part because it's just it's like a '1472.42': kind of kaleidoscope of all the '1474.28': different methods of constitutional '1475.96': interpretation it's got a little bit of '1477.46': originalism a little bit of textualism '1479.32': some pragmatic consequentialism a little '148.03': several years before I went into '1482.41': bit of the structure a constitutional '1484.179': structural reasoning and so although I '1486.49': know I'm not sure that the opinion has '1488.2': big legs that is I'm not sure that '149.44': teaching and I still continued to work '1490.03': there's going to be a lot of laws struck '1491.559': down that would have otherwise been '1492.73': upheld or like it's it's a it's a real '1496.45': window into contemporary constitutional '1499.12': law so I definitely teach that I think I '1503.53': would teach Lawrence against Texas '1506.62': because for substantive due process '1508.929': cases it's one of the most interesting '151.36': with them on cases so I'd like to think '1512.2': ones and you can see echoes of all of '1516.28': the sort of different prior cases in it '1519.87': I would definitely teach the Affordable '1525.49': Care Act case because it reviews huge '1529.48': amounts of constitutional law up till '1531.309': then and it sets down some markers for '1534.67': the future '1539.2': I'd have to teach one of the race cases '154.45': of myself as being part of the extended '1542.27': on the question of which race case to '1544.34': teach you know on the one hand Gruder is '1548.09': very important but I think maybe parents '1550.309': involved against Seattle School District '1552.86': number one is more significant because '1555.64': there's more of a discussion of what the '1557.809': meaning of brown is for modern times and '156.94': Legal Defense Fund family did you ever '1562.159': it's more of a contemporary court and '1567.01': then I mean there are a lot of different '1570.409': candidates because it depends on what '1572.48': you're trying to do in the master class '1573.799': that is if you're trying to say which '1575.09': cases have had the most impact on '1577.99': everyday people's lives that's going to '1580.279': be a different question than if you're '1581.75': sort of saying which cases give you the '1583.669': greatest insight into kind of how the '1587.39': justices think about things '159.7': catch up with any of those oh oh yes '1592.56': today if the presentation you gave '1595.58': wonderful wonderful conversation with '1603.56': Jackson and currency current issues '1609.48': which is of course the Jackson mission '1613.05': here is to create the relevancy of '1614.73': justice Jackson today and you did a '1617.82': phenomenal job of doing just that '1620.81': well they didn't mention one of the ones '1623.19': where he's been most influential because '1624.54': it was a lay audience which is the steel '1627.57': seizure drill the kind of three-part '1630.42': framework for determining the '1632.7': relationship between the executive power '1634.59': and legislative power and '1637.55': constitutionality but I thought to try '1640.47': and do that with a lay audience would be '1642.27': almost impossible two years ago John '1645.24': created an event at Albany Law School '1647.73': and Phil Neil said if there's anything '165.64': absolutely so I knew Jack greenberg '1655.08': one thing it probably needs to be done '1656.49': in law school so we got to teach Jackson '1659.13': and specifically his ability to write '1661.5': this style and also taking it to one '1664.35': step further which is what you did today '1666.74': is it realistic well I mean I could see '167.92': quite well I knew bill Coleman who was '1672.21': teaching a seminar it would be a great '1674.61': seminar to teach one justice through a '1678.23': range of cases I mean I've often so I '1682.23': have a friend who's also a law professor '1683.88': who once suggested you should teach a '1685.23': course called some like 342 us and the '1688.32': case book for the course would simply be '1689.85': that volume of us reports because I find '1692.76': that you can often see really '1694.98': interesting relationships between cases '1697.35': that don't look like they're about the '1699.27': same thing but that are decided around '170.17': chairman of the board of the Legal '1702.18': the same time so I think it'd be '1703.65': wonderful to have a course that focused '1705.72': on a single justice I mean you'd want it '1707.94': obviously to be an advanced con law '1709.74': class or an advanced law class more '171.52': Defense Fund by the time I was a lawyer '1712.2': general '1712.68': so that it might also involve statutory '1714.87': interpretation as well as constitutional '1716.55': interpretation but I think the the '1720.21': chance to read the unaccepted decisions '1723.09': of in particular justice you actually '1724.86': get a sense of what a an opinion looks '1726.75': like as opposed to what's in the case '1728.64': book which is a little bit of fact and '173.98': there quite well I met Thurgood Marshall '1730.62': then boom into the money language yeah '1733.95': it'd be great thing to do you can't '1738.39': there's so much so far because you look '1742.38': in the crystal ball for the next five '1743.7': years the pen Carlin is there books you '1747.18': want to write are their positions you'd '1749.52': like to get is there the ambitions of '1753.27': panco oh I well one of my ambitions is '1756.45': to be a better teacher you know I love '1759.9': teaching I love with the clinical '176.71': when I was clerking at the Supreme Court '1761.88': teaching and the regular teaching a '1763.47': little bit of it is also you know after '1766.29': you've done any particular thing for a '1768.09': while you're always looking for a little '1769.29': something new to do so for a while I was '1773.07': kind of some training almost entirely on '1774.39': election law stuff and now for the last '1776.64': six or seven years my primary focus has '1779.13': been this clinic about litigates cases '1780.9': at the Supreme Court so I was thinking '1782.85': like maybe it's around time to figure '1785.25': out what the next thing is I don't have '1787.62': you know ambitions to change my life '1789.9': permanently inside in some way '179.59': I knew Constance Baker motley from when '1792.85': I'd like to spend some time working at '1795.22': the Department of Justice I think you '1797.14': know the right job came along at the '1798.61': right time it's always one of these '18.9': first time to Chautauqua what's your '1800.2': questions of timing and job and like I '1802.03': mean I was offered the job that I would '1804.1': now like to have I was offered in the '1806.89': Clinton administration but it was the '1808.63': wrong time and I was changing schools at '1811.84': that point and I'm single you know I '1815.11': didn't want to take two years it's kind '1817.87': of a two-year detour but as you get '182.32': I was working at the district court in '1820.78': older it seems less of a detour and more '1822.52': of an opportunity just to serve and then '1824.62': go back to being just a country law '1828.46': professor '183.91': New York she was the chief judge when I '1831.01': okay so President Obama gets reelected '1835.83': Ruth Bader Ginsburg resides where the '1840.929': Kennedys well to figure out who the top '1846.37': three candidates are you would need to '1847.78': know what year she resigns in and what '1849.73': the Senate looks like because if the '185.29': was clerking on that Court and Bob '1852.429': Democrats have control of the Senate '1854.08': you'll see a different nominee than if '1856.48': the Republicans have control of the '1858.22': Senate some of it depends on you know '1864.07': people people can kind of shoot out of '1866.11': nowhere in various ways you know Elena '1870.88': Kagan was the first justice in probably '1874.95': what twenty years to be since Justice '1879.52': Rehnquist was the and justice Powell was '188.11': Carter I knew just from you know hanging '1881.5': the first justice to go on the Supreme '1883.0': Court not coming out of an appellate '1885.58': court I mean justice O'Connor was a '1887.41': state court and to be really accurate '1890.83': justice Souter was mostly a state court '1892.809': judge he had only been on the first '1896.23': circuit for less than a year but that's '1898.12': a different kind of pick and so be '1900.22': interesting to see whether the president '1901.72': decides to think about somebody's held '1904.059': elective office I mean that was one of '1905.65': the points I was making in my lecture '1907.99': today '1908.95': institution is that we don't have any '1912.59': balance Precourt with real nitty gritty '1916.6': running for office experience so I could '1919.789': see something like Jennifer Granholm or '192.1': around with civil rights lawyers so I '1923.169': lisa madigan who's Attorney General of '1926.12': Illinois or camel Harris is Attorney '1929.809': General of California you know the '193.99': think of all of the people who were '1934.22': president hasn't put a lot of women on '1937.64': the federal courts of appeals yet so if '1940.58': that's where you're looking you know '1942.52': it's not clear that there's a deep bench '1945.529': of Democrats there if it's a Republican '1949.399': kind if it's a Republican Senate he's '1951.23': going to have to move considerably '1953.36': towards the middle it's pretty hard to '1956.57': know Mitt Romney Jordan is nice up '196.24': still alive who had argued in brown by '1964.97': that's that's I was a stock hold of '1969.289': American Motors Corporation just once '1970.97': you know that South Fargo and Detroit '1973.88': Tigers friends put that on respected '1976.85': Mitt Romney was fully Republican and '1979.58': he's got the choice there two or three '1982.57': candidates that jump out to use logical '1985.61': yeah so I I would think for him the kind '1989.27': of obvious choices would be Brett '199.48': the time I was an adult I've met I get I '1991.97': Kavanaugh who's on the DC circuit very '1994.159': young very conservative Jeff Sutton from '1996.62': the sixth circuit young and conservative '1999.169': ents smart although Jeff probably didn't '2.04': Gregor you're us your startup has been '20.34': impressions of all this well I've been '2001.27': do himself a big favor when he upheld '2004.75': the Affordable Care Act and then I would '2009.34': think Paul Clemente who's the Solicitor '201.58': managed to meet them all I mean all of '2011.26': General would be '2013.419': in the Bush administration be a kind of '2015.399': obvious candidate those straight me as '2018.999': the people most likely in a Romney '2021.969': administration I'm smiling because dolly '2024.309': lives would answered the same question '2026.979': in the same way well '203.17': the people argued on the right side yeah '2030.659': paranoid paranoid liberal she had a '2033.009': couple of a couple of mail names to the '2035.229': democratic posted oh yeah I mean III I '2037.779': convinced I mean '2039.249': Judge garland would be you know if it's '204.76': did you find that with that did you find '2041.559': in the next year or two '2042.879': who's on the DC Circuit would be a kind '2045.669': of obvious candidate you know now that '2050.649': Paul Watford has gotten onto the ninth '2053.649': circuit '2054.429': he might be an extremely attractive '2056.71': candidate most important question she's '2063.579': baseball became its antitrust exemption '2066.149': well you know I'm a big bill James fan '2068.679': and Bill James has a discussion of this '2070.839': where he says that if you got rid of the '2072.519': antitrust exemption what you might start '2074.74': to see is a kind of proliferation of a '2077.829': third or fourth majorly don't was coming '2081.069': out of minor league teams I'm not sure '2086.589': what function the antitrust exemption '2089.609': really performs today given that there's '2092.139': now an agreement between the Players '2094.48': Association and the teams right you know '2098.47': and and a huge percentage ever since '210.61': that you went to law school and were '2101.349': free agency a huge percentage of the '2104.769': revenue has moved over to the players '2106.48': I'm not sure that the existing players '2108.43': would favor getting rid of me and I '2109.99': trust exemption such an anachronism yeah '2113.98': yeah but hard to see that it's actually '2116.92': having much effect on on the game itself '2119.4': and the real question is how you '2121.93': maintain competitive balance if you if '2124.569': you want to maintain the sport the real '2126.039': question is how to maintain competitive '2127.93': balance and without the antitrust '2129.22': exemption '213.37': there a lot of your classmates who found '2130.33': it might be harder easier Supreme Court '2133.72': Historical Society is celebrating the '2135.73': 40th anniversary of that decision and '2137.7': they have working with two podium '2144.82': individuals and a judge to sort of '2147.28': reenact the case and that simply take it '2149.5': through everything for me there I think '2152.35': folks do it all as far as any guidance '2154.15': no no I know flood against tuna was way '2157.21': before my time '2157.96': yeah but thank you I know I know but '216.67': that social part of the practice of law '2161.5': every time I say something critical '2163.75': about the Chief Justice and being an '2165.28': umpire diminish my chances of being '2168.43': invited to the flood against Hugh '2170.11': celebration well tell me about that well '2177.79': you wrote that did you get feedback did '2179.41': you like no not well the Chief Justice '2182.2': doesn't blow back there did somebody I '2184.39': mean if there's no no I mean I'd if '2188.02': there I was at an event where I talked '219.81': important well I think you know I have a '2190.66': about this and this may be kind of music '2196.03': so has an event where I talked about '2197.26': this a little bit of know you know but '2199.0': Chief Justice and the umpire analogy '22.41': hearing about Chautauqua for years when '2201.43': like and efforts Justice Thomas was had '2204.22': been there and he came up to me and said '2206.5': hey give you a little bicep a nice oh '2208.42': yeah sure mr. justice he said don't hold '2210.22': back '2210.49': tell us what you really think have you '2212.56': got a stop being that you've got to stop '2214.09': being so reticent so no you know the '2218.98': Chief Justice isn't just as a big boy '2220.96': yeah '2223.22': by the way Jen talked about Thursday '2226.01': I've been in social situations where '2227.48': he's been there in by far and away when '2229.16': all the justices are there and it '223.36': lot of friends from Moscow who have done '2230.78': Supreme Court Oracle society man well '2232.46': he's very outgoing you can get access '2234.619': immediate access to everybody but him '2236.27': because time it's only because you've '2238.25': got 40 50 people hanging on I mean it's '2240.74': just doctors you can't get them no he's '2243.14': got more social skills in one-on-one '2245.54': than the average surgeries are just '2247.13': essentially he slapped more people on '2249.829': the back down and all the reason of the '225.13': public interest practice or either for '2254.42': current justices and you've written '2257.69': about them what's what's your sense of '2264.73': Roberts decision you know how do you '2268.19': read that in the healthcare act I don't '227.68': private groups like the Legal Defense '2272.39': wanna say Obamacare because you don't '2273.5': want me to say about that well wrong '2278.06': news head I mean I don't want to crawl '2280.91': into his head I I was not surprised at '2284.27': all by most of what he wrote that is I '2286.28': was not surprised that he upheld it on '2287.839': taxing power grounds and I was not '229.45': Fund or for the government so yeah I '2291.89': surprised that he thought there was a '2294.68': spending Clause problem with Medicaid '2296.96': because those seem to me to be pretty '2299.93': predictable what did surprise me is how '2302.3': much he went out of his way to decide '2305.21': the Commerce Clause issue when it wasn't '2306.98': necessary to the bottom line because as '2308.9': you know he spent a lot of time talking '2310.849': about how we should did not decide the '2313.52': things we don't need to decide and then '2315.829': in this case he went out of his way to '2317.329': do it and he's done that before that is '2320.27': his opinion for the court in the new '2323.51': Mudd no case which is a case about '2325.9': constitutionality of section 5 of the '2327.61': Voting Rights Act the court ultimately '2329.08': decided it on very narrow statutory '233.47': think a fair number of the people I knew '2331.54': grounds but along the way he said a lot '2334.03': of nasty things about the Voting Rights '2335.5': Act um you know he was a clerk for '2341.5': Justice Rehnquist and observed Justice '2343.99': Rehnquist's Supreme Court career he is a '2346.72': huge fan of Chief Justice John Marshall '2349.72': and has thought a lot about John '235.81': in law school were very committed to '2351.34': Marshalls career and both of those men '2353.83': both Marshall and Rehnquist were '2357.19': extremely strategic and kept their eye '2360.91': on the long view and that's true for the '2364.93': Chief Justice as well '2365.92': the man is 57 years old he does not need '2369.67': to take all the cards off the table in '237.25': doing civil rights work and have done it '2371.62': one hand and I think his decision his '2376.45': opinion in the affordable care act case '2379.33': was an extremely strategic decision so '2384.01': that somebody and all sides could have '2386.32': think once they read it they read it '2389.25': fine glass they can get something out of '2392.05': that well he it's designed to make him '2394.99': appear statesman like right which is he '2399.55': sort of says look you there's this '24.029': I was growing up because my grandmother '240.04': in one form or another '2401.74': passage towards the beginning of his '2403.72': opinion where he says it's not our job '2405.73': to save the people from the consequences '2408.07': of their political decisions our job is '241.27': their careers constitutional law of all '2410.08': to apply the law well what is that '2412.42': supposed to mean '2413.35': and not our job to save the people from '2415.45': their consequences their political '2416.65': decisions in other words saying if you '2418.21': pass a stupid statute like this don't '2419.98': expect us to fix it so I think it was '2424.48': designed to make him appear '2428.01': non-political right he's he's turning '2432.19': his back on the Tea Party agenda '2434.289': case while also allowing him to say a '2437.739': bunch of nasty things about the kind of '2442.479': liberal welfare state and I think he '2446.819': gained a fair amount of capital from the '2449.38': decision there that will stand him in '245.74': that was was at the area which obviously '2451.329': good stead when he spends it on issues '2453.039': he cares more about I don't think the '2454.689': Commerce Clause is the biggest issue for '2457.059': the chief justice that he cares about in '2458.829': constitutional law but certainly don't '2461.529': think the taxing powers Robert Jackson '2465.279': Center you're here today the thrilled '2467.199': you are here today and we are here to '2469.749': advance the legacy of Justice Robert '2472.029': Jackson I had Michael Berenbaum whom you '2474.429': met sitting at seat just yesterday '2476.559': asking him you know if he had some '2478.599': advice for us for only 11 years old or '248.85': established a reputation well the kind '2481.119': work-in-progress as to areas of which to '2484.209': find ourselves and if you had to give us '2487.509': some guidance panel well if you think '2490.9': about justice Jackson right what are the '2492.999': kind of things he's most known for the '2496.539': Nuremberg trials which obviously have '2499.239': continued bearing on the world today '25.56': and her first cousin came every summer '2502.839': because of '2505.44': the rise of international war crimes '2508.98': tribunals and Human Rights Tribunal '2511.17': sunlight I mean obviously that's one '2513.78': area where you know he serves as a kind '2516.869': of focal point for the United States on '2518.819': that and then the other thing I think is '252.85': of irony about that is when I got to law '2523.05': legal writing to go back to the point '2526.2': you were making about Phil Neal earlier '2527.819': that justice Jackson was such a clear '2531.0': writer and thinker I think it'd just be '2534.42': really useful to think about how do you '2538.55': perpetuate that legacy I mean you know '2542.46': you can read a Robert Jackson opinion '2544.319': today and it speaks to you whereas you '2547.5': know you read some of the opinions from '2548.97': the if you know from the Warren burger '255.31': school my first semester in law school I '2554.42': Rehnquist and Roberts courts and they're '2557.88': just impenetrable '2561.35': or they're impenetrable sort of masses '2565.49': of soupy mass with a couple of quotable '2568.25': lines thrown and the thing that's '257.26': was assigned to constitutional law with '2570.32': interesting you know and made it a '2572.06': little hard when I was preparing my talk '2573.92': for today for the Jackson centers '2575.18': sometimes the best Jackson quotations '2577.55': are two or three paragraphs long because '2581.09': he's setting up an argument and then '2583.66': explaining the argument as he goes '2585.71': through it '2586.22': I mean he's not he isn't even though '2587.96': he's got some of the greatest one-liners '2589.64': in Supreme Court history that's not '259.72': Robert Bork so I'm not sure that what I '2591.47': actually what makes him the greatest '2593.0': writer in some ways and so getting '2595.49': people to focus more on legal writing '2597.94': would you do that boy you know that's an '2601.73': interesting question I mean I think it'd '2606.77': be great to have to have you know have '2610.49': something that gives people a sense of '2612.11': how good his writing was you know some '2617.39': of it depends on which audiences you're '2618.86': aiming at I mean I think having a legal '2621.71': writing thing where you bring in judges '2623.48': and talk to them about legal write it I '2625.61': mean especially like state Supreme Court '2627.74': justice is often don't get much training '263.65': learned in first-year constitutional law '2630.5': and how to write an opinion or how to '2631.88': think about it '2637.569': what hurry black would mean to pimp oh '2641.259': he was he was everything he was just '2644.539': such a great boss and he and he was so '2648.47': meticulous I mean one of the things that '2650.269': he really taught me was attention to '2652.549': detail because he was very much a detail '2654.799': man and just an extremely brave man I '2658.67': mean the year before I clerked for the '266.49': stuck I I knew I disagreed with him and '2660.65': summer that I clerk from your that that '2663.529': previous spring you know when he came '2665.45': back to start eating breakfast with us '2667.94': we had a US Marshal and a Supreme Court '2669.71': police officer with us every morning at '2672.38': breakfast and the reason for that is '2673.64': that he had been shot out the year '2675.769': before he got up to go to the kitchen '2678.74': and a bullet came through the window and '2680.66': landed in the chair it did sitting in '2682.97': mmm one of the things he then ended up '2685.039': with it was a huge kerfuffle with his '2687.829': insurance company because there was a '2689.329': pair of upholstered chairs and the FBI '2692.21': came and like cut out a huge chunk of '2694.609': the chair that the bullet had gone into '2696.289': and he wanted to have both the chairs '2697.97': recovered and the insurance company said '2699.74': well there's nothing wrong with the '270.85': I didn't really know why I disagreed '2700.7': other chair so they've been over the '2703.339': back and forth over the chairs but you '2706.339': know he he was very principled he stuck '2709.099': to his principles and he was '2712.869': unbelievably hard-working I mean however '2715.13': hard I work I never work as hard as he '2717.38': worked '2719.52': you're the eighth speaker in Robert H '272.92': with him because I think for me the '2721.95': ejection lectureship and you've raised '2724.65': the bar very very high today '2728.16': whoo so how lucky that you're doing this '2730.26': that Mambo thing and everybody can get '2732.6': under it more easily now well that's who '2735.69': would you recommend to Jen and I next '2738.6': year '2738.99': oh so thinking about like we've had '274.87': difficulty in the way he taught us he '2743.49': solicitor jabber solicit think about '2745.74': like who is it that I love to listen to '2748.53': when they talk about law that you '2752.04': haven't had because you've had Paul '2753.78': Clemente company yeah and you've had '2755.82': Dahlia who I love listening to you know '276.46': was very fast very quick very witty and '2765.6': Bill Marshall is a really interesting '2767.66': guy - I find him just really interesting '2772.62': to listen to '2780.41': in terms of in terms of '2783.82': you know one person who'd be interesting '2785.89': to have because he's now off the bench '2787.66': and he's talking a lot more frankly '2790.21': about a lot of stuff is Vaughn Walker '2791.5': who was a federal district judge in '2793.51': California he's a really interesting '2795.43': speaker and obviously decide a huge '2797.62': number of important cases including the '2799.36': California marriage case I would think '28.92': and so I was excited to get a chance to '280.9': you're a first-year law student and so '2802.12': he'd be super interesting '2808.41': just kind of thinking '2816.84': you know my colleague Michael McConnell '2818.61': is a super interesting speaker on '282.58': even if you know you disagree with him '2821.13': virtually everything '2826.18': one person you know because I think you '2830.23': know who might be really interesting is '2831.46': sherrilyn Ifill he's a professor at the '2833.499': University of Maryland who has is '2837.49': writing right now about judicial '2839.38': confirmation hmm processes and she's an '284.05': it's hard to formulate what your '2843.069': unbelievably great and dynamic speaker '2846.42': so she might be a good person '2851.02': I should show you the clip of Dalia '2852.76': talking about you I love doll yeah I '2856.0': love dolly she's so into she wrote she '2859.48': wrote a piece this past year that was my '286.06': disagreements are and I think I didn't '2861.369': favorite piece of all time about '2863.17': corporate personhood it was about this '2865.27': little nothing burg case called that I '2867.28': think was FCC against AT&T it was a case '2869.68': about an exemption under the Freedom of '2872.829': Information Act for things that would '2876.849': interfere with the personal privacy of '2879.46': an individual and AT&T said well we '288.61': teach constitutional law until I've been '2882.79': should be able to protect ourselves here '2884.47': and that Court ultimately helped that '2887.2': they shouldn't and that Chief Justice '2888.579': makes some jokes about AT&T and not '2891.19': taking anything personally in this '2892.54': opinion but she wrote a description of '2894.7': the oral argument the case that was '2895.93': written completely as if 18t were a '2898.21': person and it's just it's just marvelous '290.38': teaching for quite some time in part '2901.98': question that is often asked oh no you '2904.809': know me you should definitely also think '2906.25': about his Walter Dellinger who is a '2908.17': great speaker and it was not on the '2912.22': court during the Robert Jackson use but '2913.96': was a Hugo black Clarke in the 1960s '2919.42': question that gets off in a spiral a '292.6': because I didn't want to have my '2921.76': radio guy is if you've had a chance to '2924.97': have dinner '2927.19': '- John Gemini anybody in history you can' '2933.01': choose three guests who did related '2937.24': somebody you're fine '2938.47': just extremely fascinating - really well '2942.24': that's it you know that's such a hard '2944.44': question cuz okay you want to have '2948.7': dinner with us somebody who will '2949.57': actually talk to you about that stuff as '295.63': students experience constitutional line '2951.79': opposed to somebody who won't talk about '2955.69': right so you might be really interested '2957.82': in knowing what somebody thinks but if '2959.98': they're very guarded then the dinner '2961.99': would be kind of painful so no no I know '2964.69': but I'm a law professor so I would '2966.82': really love to have dinner with Franklin '2969.04': Roosevelt I would really love to have '297.61': the way I had experienced it as the '2971.95': dinner with Franklin Roosevelt's and '2975.58': although I think I would have to like be '2978.16': extremely careful and sit at the other '2980.5': end of the table I'd actually love to '2982.15': have dinner with Lyndon Johnson as just '2984.64': reading the last of the following the '2986.83': Latin most recent in the bottoms of the '2988.0': Kara biography I'm just fascinated by '299.56': professor having a very strong point of '2990.94': him I just you know I'd love to and the '2997.12': other person I would love to have dinner '2998.74': with because I just love to know more '3001.11': about what made her who she was is '3003.42': Fannie Lou Hamer hmm I mean you know '3007.32': where did you get the kind of courage to '301.27': view that kind of overwhelmed whatever '3011.49': stick with it like '3016.35': this is an aside I recently interviewed '3018.9': Andrew Young and he talked they gave him '3022.14': a flash cards all the people who civil '3024.63': rights movement it was I had 20 minute '3027.27': stop that was all I had '3028.35': and I gave it to him as a baseball cards '3030.21': yeah just tell me who's left throws even '3033.21': further like oh yeah this is great '304.24': values you came into law school with so '3045.78': you are terrific and unfortunately '3051.32': looking forward to it I'm looking '3053.64': forward to what's the line about you '3055.71': know you can summarize every Jewish '3057.15': holiday in nine words they tried to kill '3059.1': us they didn't let see Cindy just texted '306.43': those tried to be very careful that I '3065.04': she's going to the restaurant '3066.63': I know we have there was she's tagging '3068.04': on two verses you got the word out right '3069.6': so was one of the partner we're gonna '3077.07': turn fishermen six okay perfect '308.14': teach my conservative students how to be '31.859': come up and when I arrived I was just '311.44': the best constitutional law lawyers they '313.24': can be as well as teaching students '315.28': whose views on the issues coincide more '3164.359': you '317.86': with mine of course finding yourself '3185.92': you '3209.74': you '323.71': from the United States Supreme Court day '326.44': one when you walked in there and well '3275.81': you '333.25': this is gonna sound odd but I actually '337.15': felt more comfortable arguing in the US '34.02': struck by how incredibly gorgeous '340.84': Supreme Court then I felt arguing in '342.88': several of the courts of appeals where '344.95': I've argued in part because I clerked at '3455.96': you '346.75': the court and so the building was '348.82': familiar to me the personnel on the '350.62': court were familiar to me you don't have '352.63': the problem when you go to the Supreme '354.01': Court that you can handle on courts of '355.36': appeals which is you don't know who your '356.71': panel is until you get there so you've '359.53': thought about you've briefed the case '36.8': Chautauqua is a combination of just '361.419': for the people you're actually gonna '362.47': argue in front of the thing that's '364.21': amazing about the argument is how fast '366.37': it goes '367.6': mean a my first argument I only had 10 '3696.23': you '370.99': minutes because I was splitting time '372.4': with the Solicitor General and I feel '375.82': like I didn't take a breath the whole '377.29': time I was up there it just pushed by me '381.0': but there's something totally '383.17': exhilarating I sometimes say to my '385.72': students that arguing in front of the '387.79': Supreme Court is the most fun you can '389.26': have in 30 minutes in public wearing '39.45': physical gorgeousness and total charm '391.54': your clothes standing up being all by '393.37': yourself doing nothing but talking and I '396.37': I continue to feel that although I have '398.89': to say that the current court is so much '402.4': more conservative than both the court I '404.59': clerked on and the court I started '407.02': practicing in front of that's it's a '409.12': little less fun to go up there today '410.59': because it's a little harder to win the '412.27': cases that I tend to be arguing I '419.11': clicked for justice baikman in October '42.469': you know the houses and the people '421.72': term 1985 so it was the last year that '424.21': Chief Justice burger was chief justice '433.32': sure so I'll do them in order of '437.14': seniority because when justice Blackmun '439.69': used to come back from the conference '442.21': where it's just the nine justices in the '444.16': room and nobody else he would read us '446.29': his notes and he always read them in the '448.75': order the justices went which is the '45.629': walking around and everything was just '450.4': order of seniority so Chief Justice '452.92': burger he looked like a chief justice he '456.91': really did he by the time I got there '460.75': justice Blackmun and he although they '462.28': had been friends growing up and justice '464.32': Blackmun had actually been the best man '466.45': at chief justice burgers wedding by the '469.09': time I got there they really weren't '470.08': speaking to each other so I think my '471.97': views of the chief are colored somewhat '473.92': by how justice Blackmun felt about him '477.88': but the chief was very into ceremony he '48.239': it's just been delightful I hope to come '482.14': was fairly conservative not super '488.59': imaginative '490.68': my first encounter with him was there '493.11': was a party at the beginning of the term '495.54': for all of the clerks and the justices '497.37': dining-room and he came up to me and he '499.86': looked at me and he had been talking to '502.83': justice rehnquist and he looked at me '504.33': and he said well there there certainly '506.16': are a lot of you here this year and my '509.49': first reaction is how does he know I'm '51.84': back no I'm the first lawyer in the '510.69': Jewish but he actually met women because '514.29': there were seven women and so I said I '516.66': realized that's what he meant and I said '520.02': well you know justice blackmun has three '521.52': female clerks this year and it was the '523.02': first time in justice I had three and '524.76': the chief justice to me said well I '526.77': guess he's going to need a lot of help '528.09': huh and I said no no we're gonna do all '532.95': the cooking and cleaning ourselves but '536.22': so my experience what the chief was '539.75': somewhat odd justice justice Brennan was '545.43': the senior associate justice at the time '547.68': and he was extremely gregarious and '550.59': outgoing so he would you know how I how '555.6': I he would say and he had that kind of '557.37': New Jersey accent the other thing he '559.02': taught me I think this is one of the '560.58': things I've never forgotten this you '562.2': taught me how if you have to shake a lot '564.12': of people's hands to shake hands with '565.65': them which is you extend your hand and '567.36': then you grab their elbow because then '569.61': if they squeeze your hand too hard you '571.2': can squeeze their elbow and they'll '573.36': release their grip and he told me he '574.98': learned that in politics he was very '579.45': gregarious he was he made an effort I '584.4': think and I think it was a strategic '586.29': effort in addition to just his natural '587.97': outgoing personality to get to know a '590.22': lot of the clerks in the building '591.54': because I think he felt that that helped '593.36': him to enlist them kind of on his side '597.27': in a way justice White was a leader '6.45': advanced here every but it was exciting '600.78': frankfurter type person '604.46': yeah I think in a way I think in a way '608.02': justice frankfurter I'm sorry justice '611.089': white was the second most senior '614.029': associate justice he had given up '617.3': playing basketball with the clerk's by '618.98': the time I was there apparently a couple '620.54': of years before a clerk who had been '622.19': just frustrated by the justices somewhat '624.86': over rough play had just cold-cocked him '626.57': during a game but he's still putted with '629.149': his clerks for money after every '63.03': family I mean my grandmother's brother '630.529': afternoon and it was interesting my year '635.57': at the courts the division among the '639.83': justices the thing that most seemed to '643.399': divide them was there were a couple of '645.86': abortion cases and Lawrence against '648.92': Texas which was a case about the Georgia '65.07': in law was a lawyer but I didn't spend '652.43': sodomy I'm sorry not Lawrence against '654.2': Texas Bowers against Hardwick the case '655.94': about the Georgia sodomy statute which '657.77': was ultimately overruled by the Supreme '659.24': Court later in Lawrence against Texas '66.689': much time with him I actually decided to '661.19': and so there was a there was a little '663.29': bit of tension between justice Blackmun '665.18': and justice white because they were on '667.279': opposite sides of this two cases the '670.97': next justice down was justice Marshall '673.87': and by the time I got to the Supreme '676.82': Court he was I think he was he was quite '68.97': become a lawyer because when I was a '680.54': old I mean there were five of the '682.339': justices were over 75 the year I was '684.38': there he was quite old he wasn't in the '686.54': best of health and so he moved very '689.779': slowly and I think he was kind of angry '692.6': and alienated by then quite a bit from '694.79': the court but occasionally if he stopped '697.94': by his chambers in the afternoon he '699.68': would be in a storytelling mood and he '701.27': would just he was a marvellous '702.83': storyteller so you tell stories about '704.39': his time in practice I think you know I '707.3': think he was one of the obviously one of '71.64': junior in high school over that summer I '710.72': the most formative lawyers of the 20th '712.73': century but I think he's one of those '715.1': people if you were writing his biography '716.6': most of the good stuff happened before '718.76': he got to the Supreme Court as opposed '720.74': to some of the justices for whom the '722.75': Supreme Court really was the pinnacle of '724.85': their achievement '726.65': then there was just a splatter then came '733.85': justice Powell justice Powell had been '737.21': sick the year before and had been out '738.86': for quite some time and is still a '74.43': read simple justice which is a book by '741.35': little frail when I got there but you '743.69': know and kind of extraordinarily '745.48': gentlemanly one of the clerk's my year '748.78': had a serious had a serious medical '752.71': issue and justice justice Powell sent '756.92': flowers to the clerk afterwards you know '759.89': just the charming man um he switched his '76.38': Richard Kluger about the litigation that '765.05': vote in one of the biggest cases my year '766.85': Bowers against Hardwick and I think '769.01': justice Blackmun was convinced the chief '772.31': had lobbied him very hard on that case '774.88': he was the swing vote when I was there '777.35': and so a lot of issues so there was a '78.689': led up to Brown against Board of '780.11': lot of concentration on him after him '783.41': came justice Stevens '786.74': oh no justice rehnquist came and then '789.08': just as soon as it justice rehnquist '790.91': you know when he was an Associate '792.44': Justice I think was a little bit looser '795.83': than he was when he was chief justice '798.28': although the interesting thing for me is '8.28': today you had probably the largest crowd '80.13': Education and I decided I wanted to be a '800.63': when I went back to visit justice '802.43': blackmun after justice rehnquist had '805.7': taken over and became chief justice '807.02': rehnquist everybody loved him as chief '809.09': justice he's thought to be extremely '811.19': fair and balanced and straightforward in '813.74': a way that I think the liberal justices '815.48': had not felt about just as Chief Justice '818.54': burger but when I was there he was still '821.27': a relatively junior justice he was quite '823.37': often in dissent much more so than when '827.39': he became chief justice but very '829.79': friendly very casual his clerks were out '83.759': civil rights lawyer and work for the '832.73': of the building by 6 p.m. '835.27': midnight then after him came justice '838.0': Stevens who was exactly the same you '84.84': n-double-a-cp Legal Defense Fund so that '841.39': know interestingly quirky and always in '846.04': a bowtie he only had two clerks the '848.53': other justices all had four and there's '852.01': very much kind of his own his own person '854.92': and then came justice O'Connor who was '857.02': very junior obviously when I was there '858.61': she was in her I guess her fourth or '859.84': fifth term on the court and you know '864.18': extremely personable she ran a exercise '868.14': class for all the female clerks at 8:00 '87.96': book inspired me to become a lawyer 'no '871.45': a.m. and we were invited to go to it but '873.28': unfortunately justice Blackmun had '874.96': breakfast with all of his clerks at 8:00 '876.67': a.m. so I think we'd managed to get to '878.56': the exercise class two or three days '880.12': when he was out of town but other than '881.68': that we didn't go justice blackmun wrote '889.9': to me one of the more interesting '892.29': decisions and oh honey school yeah do '897.31': you guys ever have any reason to talk '898.81': about that well yes so I think it would '902.65': have been justice Blackmun's it might '907.48': have been his 80th birthday but it was '909.01': one of his big birthdays we're having a '91.32': snow there's a one discussion in that '910.57': clerks reunion and as you know in flood '912.97': against Kuhn which is the best buy in '914.68': entrust case there's this kind of '917.89': passage at the beginning of it that's a '919.84': list of famous baseball players and it '922.0': goes on and on and apparently if he '923.5': started out with about ten of them then '925.27': various people around the building would '926.53': suggest people and then somebody said '927.94': well but if you're going to include you '929.74': know if you're going to include tinker's '931.63': you have to include Evers own occlude '934.0': Evers you have to include chances so '935.2': they just that list kind of expanded and '938.41': expanded and there was a story in the '94.259': book about justice jackson and his then '940.66': Brethren that right after the opinion '944.89': came down somebody said to him how could '947.44': you not include Jimmie Foxx and he said '949.72': Jimmie Foxx was '952.24': and the president no he's not and the '954.77': Justice went back and looked at the list '956.36': and sure enough Jimmie Foxx is not on '957.71': the list and the line in the brethren is '960.77': something like and justice Biden said '962.09': I'll never forgive myself so for his for '965.33': his um for his 80th birthday I think it '968.66': was his 80th we decided we were going to '970.82': get him one of Jimmy Fox's bags and we '973.85': looked into it and we could not find one '975.83': but it turns out that Hilary Jim Bradley '978.05': I think that's what the Louisville '979.22': Slugger company's name is they keep the '98.189': law clerk William Rehnquist and the '981.35': measurements of every player on file for '984.23': their backs and so we went to them and '986.15': we had them replicate one of Jimmy Fox's '990.41': bats and we had it mounted on a plaque '992.57': and on the bottom it just said I will '994.88': never forgive myself '996.32': hav and we gave it to him the clerk saw '999.32': gave it to him for his his his birthday

/data/video_data.parquet/447/447259/7QD30-4wqZw/360p_3300.mp4

Pam Karlan (2012) interview

On Aug. 22, 2012, the Robert H. Jackson Center hosted Prof. Pam Karlan. She was the annual Robert H. Jackson lecturer at Chautauqua Institution. The interview was conducted by Greg Peterson and covered her career, reflections on her mentor Justice Harry Blackmun and legacy of Robert H. Jackson. For further information, see www.roberthjackson.org.

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'0.299': thank you for coming by the way this is '10.889': we've ever had for a Robert Jackson '1003.58': I saw it actually posted in his chambers '1007.9': the day he died after his funeral we all '101.39': famous or now infamous memorandum from '1010.36': went back to the chambers to hang out '1011.74': and there was the bat which I think was '1014.05': several people asked for it but I think '1016.24': it was given to the Library of Congress '1017.62': and the other thing about baseball that '1019.45': I is he had been a friend of the '1021.49': Griffiths who owned the then the '1024.459': Minneapolis Millers later the twins and '1027.97': so we would talk about baseball a lot it '1030.16': at breakfast and one day in the '1036.31': afternoon he I was in the upstairs '1038.8': chambers and I got a phone call used to '104.579': justice to justice Jackson from justice '1040.12': come down the Justice has somebody he '1042.52': wants you to meet and this group called '1044.35': the email verbum society was having its '1046.51': reunion in Washington I guess there's a '1048.13': Cubs thing and so there were these three '1053.5': guys and like bad fitting sports coats '1055.36': in his office and he introduced them to '1058.0': me and two of them I don't remember the '1059.14': name is because I'm not a Cubs fan at '1061.24': all but the last one was Andy Pafko who '1063.52': had been a Dodger as well '1065.96': at a nice conversation when afternoon '1068.299': with Andy Pafko '107.909': Rehnquist as you went through that '1070.789': and the last baseball thing I'll tell '1072.289': you is when justice blackmun retired '1074.539': from the Supreme Court I was asked to do '1076.639': one of the tributes for him in the '1078.379': Harvard Law Review and one of the things '1082.549': I talked about in the in the tribute was '1089.33': this article that been written called '1091.519': your law baseball quiz I think I told '1093.2': you about this last night where they '1094.34': compare different justices to different '1097.96': famous baseball players and I said that '110.13': clipper book in you and you've read '1100.85': you know so I tell the story of you know '1102.47': Jackie Jenson is like Byron white '1104.509': because they were both better at '1105.499': football and then I say you know and '1108.59': they compared the guy to this compared '111.93': about the activities of Thurgood '1110.769': Felix Frankfurter do among other things '1112.909': Wayne Terwilliger and I and I and then '1115.46': the art of I just set up foot and I said '1116.99': who is Wayne Terwilliger and so and then '1121.279': ultimately I said that if I had to pick '1122.99': somebody for justice blackmun to be like '1124.94': I had thought originally about Bobby '1126.529': Brown because justice like they wanted '1128.6': to be a doctor just like Bobby Brown '113.909': Marshall and William Coleman and the '1130.129': became a doctor and that I thought of '1132.32': you know a couple of other people like '1134.299': that you know Charlie Gehringer because '1136.549': it was a little tiny you know little '1141.32': tiny second baseman and you know a great '1143.529': fielder but not not a big batter and '1146.72': ultimately I came out with Dave Winfield '1148.58': which people might not have guessed '1149.779': because both of them came from st. Paul '1151.759': and made something of themselves both of '1153.86': them played the game long after many of '1155.809': their contemporaries had retired and '1157.279': both of them owed their start to a '1159.44': convicted but later pardoned Watergate '1161.629': felon to a later I'm sorry to a later '1164.809': pardoned Watergate felon because '1168.1': Blackman got his seat on the Supreme '1169.82': Court from Nixon and '117.21': whole cadre of people who were working '1172.94': George Steinbrenner's the person who '1174.68': gave Dave Winfield his biggest contract '1177.25': and so when I know sir yes so I read '1179.72': this and I wouldn't you know and the '1181.34': next time I visited the Justice that '1182.75': Justice said oh I really liked your your '1185.54': tribute a lot but come with me and he '1187.4': led me down the hall into a storeroom he '119.79': on the case did that inspire you to the '1190.67': was bending down at the Thurgood '1191.81': Marshall Center and he pulled out a copy '1193.82': of the baseball encyclopedia and he said '1197.09': this is Wayne Terwilliger and took me to '12.63': lecture and certainly the largest to '1200.45': the page twig I'd never heard of him and '1204.98': I'm a baseball fan and I'd never heard '1206.92': okay yeah I think until a few years ago '1209.33': still in baseball as a coach didn't even '1212.99': talk about Roe versus Wade ooh yes '1214.58': yeah um so the first time you talked '1216.95': about Roe vs. Wade is when I went to '1218.51': interview with him he had a justice '1221.48': blackmun would have been a tax lawyer '1223.1': before he was then counsel at the Mayo '1224.99': Clinic and he had exactly the habits you '1227.63': would expect from somebody who'd been a '1228.86': very good tax it's like incredibly '123.99': extent that you could find that that's a '1230.48': meticulous and precise and so when he '1232.34': interviewed people he had this long list '1234.32': of questions written out and he asked '1236.63': you the questions they wrote down the '1237.74': answers in pencil and towards the end of '1240.47': the interview he said now I want to ask '1242.54': you a question and I want you to think '1244.25': about this very carefully '1249.509': now I've written an opinion that's a '1252.239': little bit controversial and some people '1254.759': find that the kind of opinion that they '1257.549': have trouble with and you need to think '126.03': lineage that you could have '1260.549': about whether you would be comfortable '1261.809': working for me '1263.009': given the opinion and I'm sort of '1264.749': racking my brain to think like what '1266.249': opinion is he talking about '1268.799': and he said you may have heard of it and '127.74': yeah well I you know I decided I wanted '1271.049': now I'm thinking okay what is he gonna '1272.489': say '1272.909': he said it's called Roe against Wade and '1275.19': you know I'm a little bit of a kind of '1277.799': smartass sometimes and all I could think '1279.539': is just don't say oh my god you're that '1281.399': Harry Blackmun you're kidding but he '1284.519': actually had had a clerk apparently '1286.409': several years before who had in the '1288.119': middle of the year had a religious '1290.489': revelation that Roe was wrong and so '1295.139': that was the first time that I had a '1296.58': conversation then we had two abortion '1299.1': cases my year at the Supreme Court and '130.24': to work for the n-double-a-cp Legal '1300.96': it's actually the kind of high watermark '1303.359': of abortion rights at the Supreme Court '1305.07': was one of those cases the kids called '1306.45': Thornburg against American College of '1308.039': Obstetricians and Gynaecologists which '131.89': Defense Fund which is the organization '1310.649': the Justice wrote and so we had a fair '1313.859': number of conversations about abortion '1316.259': and he was convinced that you know that '1318.659': was also the first time that there was '1319.98': five to four who done a poll the kind of '1322.85': central premise of row because the Chief '1325.289': Justice which side so he talked about a '1327.419': lot then and then as you probably know '133.57': that bill Coleman and Charlie black and '1330.389': he used to teach at the Aspen Institute '1332.159': in the summer a justice and society '1335.039': class and he spent a day of that talking '1337.889': about the decision process leading up to '1339.929': Roe and I was there '1342.74': what do you say well he thought I mean '1345.87': it's interesting I think although he '1348.12': wouldn't I think he wouldn't put it '1350.309': quite this way his thoughts about ro '1352.02': evolved somewhat over time this when he '1355.29': started on the case his major you know '1358.95': the major focus for him was the practice '136.87': Lou and Thurgood Marshall and '1362.34': of medicine because he had come out of '1363.99': being counsel at the Mayo Clinic and he '1365.91': took very seriously they did it this was '1367.83': a medical procedure and therefore it was '1370.08': up to women in consultation with their '1372.78': doctors to make this decision in the way '1375.179': that would be true of all other medical '1376.919': procedures I think over time he came to '1379.049': see ro as equally about women's autonomy '138.64': Jack Greenberg were all part of and in '1383.76': that it wasn't mostly about medical '1386.07': autonomy it was about women's autonomy '1388.62': by the time I got there I think he was '1390.299': thinking about it and much those two '1392.79': things to have more much more in '1394.41': equipoise in being important to him but '1397.41': he just thought it was not the kind of '1398.91': decision that should be made '14.25': stay around well excellent yeah your '1400.4': categorically by the state as opposed to '1402.75': by individuals given the circumstances '1405.33': they found themselves in a gym ropes '1408.5': publicly switched no I think I think she '141.4': fact that's what I did do when I was in '1413.07': had said by then that she regretted '1414.84': having had the abortion but it wasn't '1416.85': until maybe about five years ago there '1419.22': so that she filed a sort of coram nobis '1420.75': training in Roe overturned if you had '1427.53': this pause and Sarah Gregg I've been in '143.11': law school I worked there for each of '1430.59': violence constitutional law business for '1432.44': since eighties and you had to pick kind '1436.5': of the five seminal cases to teach a '1439.98': master's class '144.73': the summers I was in law school '1444.52': five cases since the 1980s startup '1448.0': America okay '1449.26': doing a little baseline yeah was your '1451.35': people so if I had to pick the cases '1455.71': since I started since I started well '146.2': and then I was a staff lawyer there for '1462.4': you'd have to teach District of Columbia '1467.71': against Heller the Second Amendment case '1470.08': in part because it's just it's like a '1472.42': kind of kaleidoscope of all the '1474.28': different methods of constitutional '1475.96': interpretation it's got a little bit of '1477.46': originalism a little bit of textualism '1479.32': some pragmatic consequentialism a little '148.03': several years before I went into '1482.41': bit of the structure a constitutional '1484.179': structural reasoning and so although I '1486.49': know I'm not sure that the opinion has '1488.2': big legs that is I'm not sure that '149.44': teaching and I still continued to work '1490.03': there's going to be a lot of laws struck '1491.559': down that would have otherwise been '1492.73': upheld or like it's it's a it's a real '1496.45': window into contemporary constitutional '1499.12': law so I definitely teach that I think I '1503.53': would teach Lawrence against Texas '1506.62': because for substantive due process '1508.929': cases it's one of the most interesting '151.36': with them on cases so I'd like to think '1512.2': ones and you can see echoes of all of '1516.28': the sort of different prior cases in it '1519.87': I would definitely teach the Affordable '1525.49': Care Act case because it reviews huge '1529.48': amounts of constitutional law up till '1531.309': then and it sets down some markers for '1534.67': the future '1539.2': I'd have to teach one of the race cases '154.45': of myself as being part of the extended '1542.27': on the question of which race case to '1544.34': teach you know on the one hand Gruder is '1548.09': very important but I think maybe parents '1550.309': involved against Seattle School District '1552.86': number one is more significant because '1555.64': there's more of a discussion of what the '1557.809': meaning of brown is for modern times and '156.94': Legal Defense Fund family did you ever '1562.159': it's more of a contemporary court and '1567.01': then I mean there are a lot of different '1570.409': candidates because it depends on what '1572.48': you're trying to do in the master class '1573.799': that is if you're trying to say which '1575.09': cases have had the most impact on '1577.99': everyday people's lives that's going to '1580.279': be a different question than if you're '1581.75': sort of saying which cases give you the '1583.669': greatest insight into kind of how the '1587.39': justices think about things '159.7': catch up with any of those oh oh yes '1592.56': today if the presentation you gave '1595.58': wonderful wonderful conversation with '1603.56': Jackson and currency current issues '1609.48': which is of course the Jackson mission '1613.05': here is to create the relevancy of '1614.73': justice Jackson today and you did a '1617.82': phenomenal job of doing just that '1620.81': well they didn't mention one of the ones '1623.19': where he's been most influential because '1624.54': it was a lay audience which is the steel '1627.57': seizure drill the kind of three-part '1630.42': framework for determining the '1632.7': relationship between the executive power '1634.59': and legislative power and '1637.55': constitutionality but I thought to try '1640.47': and do that with a lay audience would be '1642.27': almost impossible two years ago John '1645.24': created an event at Albany Law School '1647.73': and Phil Neil said if there's anything '165.64': absolutely so I knew Jack greenberg '1655.08': one thing it probably needs to be done '1656.49': in law school so we got to teach Jackson '1659.13': and specifically his ability to write '1661.5': this style and also taking it to one '1664.35': step further which is what you did today '1666.74': is it realistic well I mean I could see '167.92': quite well I knew bill Coleman who was '1672.21': teaching a seminar it would be a great '1674.61': seminar to teach one justice through a '1678.23': range of cases I mean I've often so I '1682.23': have a friend who's also a law professor '1683.88': who once suggested you should teach a '1685.23': course called some like 342 us and the '1688.32': case book for the course would simply be '1689.85': that volume of us reports because I find '1692.76': that you can often see really '1694.98': interesting relationships between cases '1697.35': that don't look like they're about the '1699.27': same thing but that are decided around '170.17': chairman of the board of the Legal '1702.18': the same time so I think it'd be '1703.65': wonderful to have a course that focused '1705.72': on a single justice I mean you'd want it '1707.94': obviously to be an advanced con law '1709.74': class or an advanced law class more '171.52': Defense Fund by the time I was a lawyer '1712.2': general '1712.68': so that it might also involve statutory '1714.87': interpretation as well as constitutional '1716.55': interpretation but I think the the '1720.21': chance to read the unaccepted decisions '1723.09': of in particular justice you actually '1724.86': get a sense of what a an opinion looks '1726.75': like as opposed to what's in the case '1728.64': book which is a little bit of fact and '173.98': there quite well I met Thurgood Marshall '1730.62': then boom into the money language yeah '1733.95': it'd be great thing to do you can't '1738.39': there's so much so far because you look '1742.38': in the crystal ball for the next five '1743.7': years the pen Carlin is there books you '1747.18': want to write are their positions you'd '1749.52': like to get is there the ambitions of '1753.27': panco oh I well one of my ambitions is '1756.45': to be a better teacher you know I love '1759.9': teaching I love with the clinical '176.71': when I was clerking at the Supreme Court '1761.88': teaching and the regular teaching a '1763.47': little bit of it is also you know after '1766.29': you've done any particular thing for a '1768.09': while you're always looking for a little '1769.29': something new to do so for a while I was '1773.07': kind of some training almost entirely on '1774.39': election law stuff and now for the last '1776.64': six or seven years my primary focus has '1779.13': been this clinic about litigates cases '1780.9': at the Supreme Court so I was thinking '1782.85': like maybe it's around time to figure '1785.25': out what the next thing is I don't have '1787.62': you know ambitions to change my life '1789.9': permanently inside in some way '179.59': I knew Constance Baker motley from when '1792.85': I'd like to spend some time working at '1795.22': the Department of Justice I think you '1797.14': know the right job came along at the '1798.61': right time it's always one of these '18.9': first time to Chautauqua what's your '1800.2': questions of timing and job and like I '1802.03': mean I was offered the job that I would '1804.1': now like to have I was offered in the '1806.89': Clinton administration but it was the '1808.63': wrong time and I was changing schools at '1811.84': that point and I'm single you know I '1815.11': didn't want to take two years it's kind '1817.87': of a two-year detour but as you get '182.32': I was working at the district court in '1820.78': older it seems less of a detour and more '1822.52': of an opportunity just to serve and then '1824.62': go back to being just a country law '1828.46': professor '183.91': New York she was the chief judge when I '1831.01': okay so President Obama gets reelected '1835.83': Ruth Bader Ginsburg resides where the '1840.929': Kennedys well to figure out who the top '1846.37': three candidates are you would need to '1847.78': know what year she resigns in and what '1849.73': the Senate looks like because if the '185.29': was clerking on that Court and Bob '1852.429': Democrats have control of the Senate '1854.08': you'll see a different nominee than if '1856.48': the Republicans have control of the '1858.22': Senate some of it depends on you know '1864.07': people people can kind of shoot out of '1866.11': nowhere in various ways you know Elena '1870.88': Kagan was the first justice in probably '1874.95': what twenty years to be since Justice '1879.52': Rehnquist was the and justice Powell was '188.11': Carter I knew just from you know hanging '1881.5': the first justice to go on the Supreme '1883.0': Court not coming out of an appellate '1885.58': court I mean justice O'Connor was a '1887.41': state court and to be really accurate '1890.83': justice Souter was mostly a state court '1892.809': judge he had only been on the first '1896.23': circuit for less than a year but that's '1898.12': a different kind of pick and so be '1900.22': interesting to see whether the president '1901.72': decides to think about somebody's held '1904.059': elective office I mean that was one of '1905.65': the points I was making in my lecture '1907.99': today '1908.95': institution is that we don't have any '1912.59': balance Precourt with real nitty gritty '1916.6': running for office experience so I could '1919.789': see something like Jennifer Granholm or '192.1': around with civil rights lawyers so I '1923.169': lisa madigan who's Attorney General of '1926.12': Illinois or camel Harris is Attorney '1929.809': General of California you know the '193.99': think of all of the people who were '1934.22': president hasn't put a lot of women on '1937.64': the federal courts of appeals yet so if '1940.58': that's where you're looking you know '1942.52': it's not clear that there's a deep bench '1945.529': of Democrats there if it's a Republican '1949.399': kind if it's a Republican Senate he's '1951.23': going to have to move considerably '1953.36': towards the middle it's pretty hard to '1956.57': know Mitt Romney Jordan is nice up '196.24': still alive who had argued in brown by '1964.97': that's that's I was a stock hold of '1969.289': American Motors Corporation just once '1970.97': you know that South Fargo and Detroit '1973.88': Tigers friends put that on respected '1976.85': Mitt Romney was fully Republican and '1979.58': he's got the choice there two or three '1982.57': candidates that jump out to use logical '1985.61': yeah so I I would think for him the kind '1989.27': of obvious choices would be Brett '199.48': the time I was an adult I've met I get I '1991.97': Kavanaugh who's on the DC circuit very '1994.159': young very conservative Jeff Sutton from '1996.62': the sixth circuit young and conservative '1999.169': ents smart although Jeff probably didn't '2.04': Gregor you're us your startup has been '20.34': impressions of all this well I've been '2001.27': do himself a big favor when he upheld '2004.75': the Affordable Care Act and then I would '2009.34': think Paul Clemente who's the Solicitor '201.58': managed to meet them all I mean all of '2011.26': General would be '2013.419': in the Bush administration be a kind of '2015.399': obvious candidate those straight me as '2018.999': the people most likely in a Romney '2021.969': administration I'm smiling because dolly '2024.309': lives would answered the same question '2026.979': in the same way well '203.17': the people argued on the right side yeah '2030.659': paranoid paranoid liberal she had a '2033.009': couple of a couple of mail names to the '2035.229': democratic posted oh yeah I mean III I '2037.779': convinced I mean '2039.249': Judge garland would be you know if it's '204.76': did you find that with that did you find '2041.559': in the next year or two '2042.879': who's on the DC Circuit would be a kind '2045.669': of obvious candidate you know now that '2050.649': Paul Watford has gotten onto the ninth '2053.649': circuit '2054.429': he might be an extremely attractive '2056.71': candidate most important question she's '2063.579': baseball became its antitrust exemption '2066.149': well you know I'm a big bill James fan '2068.679': and Bill James has a discussion of this '2070.839': where he says that if you got rid of the '2072.519': antitrust exemption what you might start '2074.74': to see is a kind of proliferation of a '2077.829': third or fourth majorly don't was coming '2081.069': out of minor league teams I'm not sure '2086.589': what function the antitrust exemption '2089.609': really performs today given that there's '2092.139': now an agreement between the Players '2094.48': Association and the teams right you know '2098.47': and and a huge percentage ever since '210.61': that you went to law school and were '2101.349': free agency a huge percentage of the '2104.769': revenue has moved over to the players '2106.48': I'm not sure that the existing players '2108.43': would favor getting rid of me and I '2109.99': trust exemption such an anachronism yeah '2113.98': yeah but hard to see that it's actually '2116.92': having much effect on on the game itself '2119.4': and the real question is how you '2121.93': maintain competitive balance if you if '2124.569': you want to maintain the sport the real '2126.039': question is how to maintain competitive '2127.93': balance and without the antitrust '2129.22': exemption '213.37': there a lot of your classmates who found '2130.33': it might be harder easier Supreme Court '2133.72': Historical Society is celebrating the '2135.73': 40th anniversary of that decision and '2137.7': they have working with two podium '2144.82': individuals and a judge to sort of '2147.28': reenact the case and that simply take it '2149.5': through everything for me there I think '2152.35': folks do it all as far as any guidance '2154.15': no no I know flood against tuna was way '2157.21': before my time '2157.96': yeah but thank you I know I know but '216.67': that social part of the practice of law '2161.5': every time I say something critical '2163.75': about the Chief Justice and being an '2165.28': umpire diminish my chances of being '2168.43': invited to the flood against Hugh '2170.11': celebration well tell me about that well '2177.79': you wrote that did you get feedback did '2179.41': you like no not well the Chief Justice '2182.2': doesn't blow back there did somebody I '2184.39': mean if there's no no I mean I'd if '2188.02': there I was at an event where I talked '219.81': important well I think you know I have a '2190.66': about this and this may be kind of music '2196.03': so has an event where I talked about '2197.26': this a little bit of know you know but '2199.0': Chief Justice and the umpire analogy '22.41': hearing about Chautauqua for years when '2201.43': like and efforts Justice Thomas was had '2204.22': been there and he came up to me and said '2206.5': hey give you a little bicep a nice oh '2208.42': yeah sure mr. justice he said don't hold '2210.22': back '2210.49': tell us what you really think have you '2212.56': got a stop being that you've got to stop '2214.09': being so reticent so no you know the '2218.98': Chief Justice isn't just as a big boy '2220.96': yeah '2223.22': by the way Jen talked about Thursday '2226.01': I've been in social situations where '2227.48': he's been there in by far and away when '2229.16': all the justices are there and it '223.36': lot of friends from Moscow who have done '2230.78': Supreme Court Oracle society man well '2232.46': he's very outgoing you can get access '2234.619': immediate access to everybody but him '2236.27': because time it's only because you've '2238.25': got 40 50 people hanging on I mean it's '2240.74': just doctors you can't get them no he's '2243.14': got more social skills in one-on-one '2245.54': than the average surgeries are just '2247.13': essentially he slapped more people on '2249.829': the back down and all the reason of the '225.13': public interest practice or either for '2254.42': current justices and you've written '2257.69': about them what's what's your sense of '2264.73': Roberts decision you know how do you '2268.19': read that in the healthcare act I don't '227.68': private groups like the Legal Defense '2272.39': wanna say Obamacare because you don't '2273.5': want me to say about that well wrong '2278.06': news head I mean I don't want to crawl '2280.91': into his head I I was not surprised at '2284.27': all by most of what he wrote that is I '2286.28': was not surprised that he upheld it on '2287.839': taxing power grounds and I was not '229.45': Fund or for the government so yeah I '2291.89': surprised that he thought there was a '2294.68': spending Clause problem with Medicaid '2296.96': because those seem to me to be pretty '2299.93': predictable what did surprise me is how '2302.3': much he went out of his way to decide '2305.21': the Commerce Clause issue when it wasn't '2306.98': necessary to the bottom line because as '2308.9': you know he spent a lot of time talking '2310.849': about how we should did not decide the '2313.52': things we don't need to decide and then '2315.829': in this case he went out of his way to '2317.329': do it and he's done that before that is '2320.27': his opinion for the court in the new '2323.51': Mudd no case which is a case about '2325.9': constitutionality of section 5 of the '2327.61': Voting Rights Act the court ultimately '2329.08': decided it on very narrow statutory '233.47': think a fair number of the people I knew '2331.54': grounds but along the way he said a lot '2334.03': of nasty things about the Voting Rights '2335.5': Act um you know he was a clerk for '2341.5': Justice Rehnquist and observed Justice '2343.99': Rehnquist's Supreme Court career he is a '2346.72': huge fan of Chief Justice John Marshall '2349.72': and has thought a lot about John '235.81': in law school were very committed to '2351.34': Marshalls career and both of those men '2353.83': both Marshall and Rehnquist were '2357.19': extremely strategic and kept their eye '2360.91': on the long view and that's true for the '2364.93': Chief Justice as well '2365.92': the man is 57 years old he does not need '2369.67': to take all the cards off the table in '237.25': doing civil rights work and have done it '2371.62': one hand and I think his decision his '2376.45': opinion in the affordable care act case '2379.33': was an extremely strategic decision so '2384.01': that somebody and all sides could have '2386.32': think once they read it they read it '2389.25': fine glass they can get something out of '2392.05': that well he it's designed to make him '2394.99': appear statesman like right which is he '2399.55': sort of says look you there's this '24.029': I was growing up because my grandmother '240.04': in one form or another '2401.74': passage towards the beginning of his '2403.72': opinion where he says it's not our job '2405.73': to save the people from the consequences '2408.07': of their political decisions our job is '241.27': their careers constitutional law of all '2410.08': to apply the law well what is that '2412.42': supposed to mean '2413.35': and not our job to save the people from '2415.45': their consequences their political '2416.65': decisions in other words saying if you '2418.21': pass a stupid statute like this don't '2419.98': expect us to fix it so I think it was '2424.48': designed to make him appear '2428.01': non-political right he's he's turning '2432.19': his back on the Tea Party agenda '2434.289': case while also allowing him to say a '2437.739': bunch of nasty things about the kind of '2442.479': liberal welfare state and I think he '2446.819': gained a fair amount of capital from the '2449.38': decision there that will stand him in '245.74': that was was at the area which obviously '2451.329': good stead when he spends it on issues '2453.039': he cares more about I don't think the '2454.689': Commerce Clause is the biggest issue for '2457.059': the chief justice that he cares about in '2458.829': constitutional law but certainly don't '2461.529': think the taxing powers Robert Jackson '2465.279': Center you're here today the thrilled '2467.199': you are here today and we are here to '2469.749': advance the legacy of Justice Robert '2472.029': Jackson I had Michael Berenbaum whom you '2474.429': met sitting at seat just yesterday '2476.559': asking him you know if he had some '2478.599': advice for us for only 11 years old or '248.85': established a reputation well the kind '2481.119': work-in-progress as to areas of which to '2484.209': find ourselves and if you had to give us '2487.509': some guidance panel well if you think '2490.9': about justice Jackson right what are the '2492.999': kind of things he's most known for the '2496.539': Nuremberg trials which obviously have '2499.239': continued bearing on the world today '25.56': and her first cousin came every summer '2502.839': because of '2505.44': the rise of international war crimes '2508.98': tribunals and Human Rights Tribunal '2511.17': sunlight I mean obviously that's one '2513.78': area where you know he serves as a kind '2516.869': of focal point for the United States on '2518.819': that and then the other thing I think is '252.85': of irony about that is when I got to law '2523.05': legal writing to go back to the point '2526.2': you were making about Phil Neal earlier '2527.819': that justice Jackson was such a clear '2531.0': writer and thinker I think it'd just be '2534.42': really useful to think about how do you '2538.55': perpetuate that legacy I mean you know '2542.46': you can read a Robert Jackson opinion '2544.319': today and it speaks to you whereas you '2547.5': know you read some of the opinions from '2548.97': the if you know from the Warren burger '255.31': school my first semester in law school I '2554.42': Rehnquist and Roberts courts and they're '2557.88': just impenetrable '2561.35': or they're impenetrable sort of masses '2565.49': of soupy mass with a couple of quotable '2568.25': lines thrown and the thing that's '257.26': was assigned to constitutional law with '2570.32': interesting you know and made it a '2572.06': little hard when I was preparing my talk '2573.92': for today for the Jackson centers '2575.18': sometimes the best Jackson quotations '2577.55': are two or three paragraphs long because '2581.09': he's setting up an argument and then '2583.66': explaining the argument as he goes '2585.71': through it '2586.22': I mean he's not he isn't even though '2587.96': he's got some of the greatest one-liners '2589.64': in Supreme Court history that's not '259.72': Robert Bork so I'm not sure that what I '2591.47': actually what makes him the greatest '2593.0': writer in some ways and so getting '2595.49': people to focus more on legal writing '2597.94': would you do that boy you know that's an '2601.73': interesting question I mean I think it'd '2606.77': be great to have to have you know have '2610.49': something that gives people a sense of '2612.11': how good his writing was you know some '2617.39': of it depends on which audiences you're '2618.86': aiming at I mean I think having a legal '2621.71': writing thing where you bring in judges '2623.48': and talk to them about legal write it I '2625.61': mean especially like state Supreme Court '2627.74': justice is often don't get much training '263.65': learned in first-year constitutional law '2630.5': and how to write an opinion or how to '2631.88': think about it '2637.569': what hurry black would mean to pimp oh '2641.259': he was he was everything he was just '2644.539': such a great boss and he and he was so '2648.47': meticulous I mean one of the things that '2650.269': he really taught me was attention to '2652.549': detail because he was very much a detail '2654.799': man and just an extremely brave man I '2658.67': mean the year before I clerked for the '266.49': stuck I I knew I disagreed with him and '2660.65': summer that I clerk from your that that '2663.529': previous spring you know when he came '2665.45': back to start eating breakfast with us '2667.94': we had a US Marshal and a Supreme Court '2669.71': police officer with us every morning at '2672.38': breakfast and the reason for that is '2673.64': that he had been shot out the year '2675.769': before he got up to go to the kitchen '2678.74': and a bullet came through the window and '2680.66': landed in the chair it did sitting in '2682.97': mmm one of the things he then ended up '2685.039': with it was a huge kerfuffle with his '2687.829': insurance company because there was a '2689.329': pair of upholstered chairs and the FBI '2692.21': came and like cut out a huge chunk of '2694.609': the chair that the bullet had gone into '2696.289': and he wanted to have both the chairs '2697.97': recovered and the insurance company said '2699.74': well there's nothing wrong with the '270.85': I didn't really know why I disagreed '2700.7': other chair so they've been over the '2703.339': back and forth over the chairs but you '2706.339': know he he was very principled he stuck '2709.099': to his principles and he was '2712.869': unbelievably hard-working I mean however '2715.13': hard I work I never work as hard as he '2717.38': worked '2719.52': you're the eighth speaker in Robert H '272.92': with him because I think for me the '2721.95': ejection lectureship and you've raised '2724.65': the bar very very high today '2728.16': whoo so how lucky that you're doing this '2730.26': that Mambo thing and everybody can get '2732.6': under it more easily now well that's who '2735.69': would you recommend to Jen and I next '2738.6': year '2738.99': oh so thinking about like we've had '274.87': difficulty in the way he taught us he '2743.49': solicitor jabber solicit think about '2745.74': like who is it that I love to listen to '2748.53': when they talk about law that you '2752.04': haven't had because you've had Paul '2753.78': Clemente company yeah and you've had '2755.82': Dahlia who I love listening to you know '276.46': was very fast very quick very witty and '2765.6': Bill Marshall is a really interesting '2767.66': guy - I find him just really interesting '2772.62': to listen to '2780.41': in terms of in terms of '2783.82': you know one person who'd be interesting '2785.89': to have because he's now off the bench '2787.66': and he's talking a lot more frankly '2790.21': about a lot of stuff is Vaughn Walker '2791.5': who was a federal district judge in '2793.51': California he's a really interesting '2795.43': speaker and obviously decide a huge '2797.62': number of important cases including the '2799.36': California marriage case I would think '28.92': and so I was excited to get a chance to '280.9': you're a first-year law student and so '2802.12': he'd be super interesting '2808.41': just kind of thinking '2816.84': you know my colleague Michael McConnell '2818.61': is a super interesting speaker on '282.58': even if you know you disagree with him '2821.13': virtually everything '2826.18': one person you know because I think you '2830.23': know who might be really interesting is '2831.46': sherrilyn Ifill he's a professor at the '2833.499': University of Maryland who has is '2837.49': writing right now about judicial '2839.38': confirmation hmm processes and she's an '284.05': it's hard to formulate what your '2843.069': unbelievably great and dynamic speaker '2846.42': so she might be a good person '2851.02': I should show you the clip of Dalia '2852.76': talking about you I love doll yeah I '2856.0': love dolly she's so into she wrote she '2859.48': wrote a piece this past year that was my '286.06': disagreements are and I think I didn't '2861.369': favorite piece of all time about '2863.17': corporate personhood it was about this '2865.27': little nothing burg case called that I '2867.28': think was FCC against AT&T it was a case '2869.68': about an exemption under the Freedom of '2872.829': Information Act for things that would '2876.849': interfere with the personal privacy of '2879.46': an individual and AT&T said well we '288.61': teach constitutional law until I've been '2882.79': should be able to protect ourselves here '2884.47': and that Court ultimately helped that '2887.2': they shouldn't and that Chief Justice '2888.579': makes some jokes about AT&T and not '2891.19': taking anything personally in this '2892.54': opinion but she wrote a description of '2894.7': the oral argument the case that was '2895.93': written completely as if 18t were a '2898.21': person and it's just it's just marvelous '290.38': teaching for quite some time in part '2901.98': question that is often asked oh no you '2904.809': know me you should definitely also think '2906.25': about his Walter Dellinger who is a '2908.17': great speaker and it was not on the '2912.22': court during the Robert Jackson use but '2913.96': was a Hugo black Clarke in the 1960s '2919.42': question that gets off in a spiral a '292.6': because I didn't want to have my '2921.76': radio guy is if you've had a chance to '2924.97': have dinner '2927.19': '- John Gemini anybody in history you can' '2933.01': choose three guests who did related '2937.24': somebody you're fine '2938.47': just extremely fascinating - really well '2942.24': that's it you know that's such a hard '2944.44': question cuz okay you want to have '2948.7': dinner with us somebody who will '2949.57': actually talk to you about that stuff as '295.63': students experience constitutional line '2951.79': opposed to somebody who won't talk about '2955.69': right so you might be really interested '2957.82': in knowing what somebody thinks but if '2959.98': they're very guarded then the dinner '2961.99': would be kind of painful so no no I know '2964.69': but I'm a law professor so I would '2966.82': really love to have dinner with Franklin '2969.04': Roosevelt I would really love to have '297.61': the way I had experienced it as the '2971.95': dinner with Franklin Roosevelt's and '2975.58': although I think I would have to like be '2978.16': extremely careful and sit at the other '2980.5': end of the table I'd actually love to '2982.15': have dinner with Lyndon Johnson as just '2984.64': reading the last of the following the '2986.83': Latin most recent in the bottoms of the '2988.0': Kara biography I'm just fascinated by '299.56': professor having a very strong point of '2990.94': him I just you know I'd love to and the '2997.12': other person I would love to have dinner '2998.74': with because I just love to know more '3001.11': about what made her who she was is '3003.42': Fannie Lou Hamer hmm I mean you know '3007.32': where did you get the kind of courage to '301.27': view that kind of overwhelmed whatever '3011.49': stick with it like '3016.35': this is an aside I recently interviewed '3018.9': Andrew Young and he talked they gave him '3022.14': a flash cards all the people who civil '3024.63': rights movement it was I had 20 minute '3027.27': stop that was all I had '3028.35': and I gave it to him as a baseball cards '3030.21': yeah just tell me who's left throws even '3033.21': further like oh yeah this is great '304.24': values you came into law school with so '3045.78': you are terrific and unfortunately '3051.32': looking forward to it I'm looking '3053.64': forward to what's the line about you '3055.71': know you can summarize every Jewish '3057.15': holiday in nine words they tried to kill '3059.1': us they didn't let see Cindy just texted '306.43': those tried to be very careful that I '3065.04': she's going to the restaurant '3066.63': I know we have there was she's tagging '3068.04': on two verses you got the word out right '3069.6': so was one of the partner we're gonna '3077.07': turn fishermen six okay perfect '308.14': teach my conservative students how to be '31.859': come up and when I arrived I was just '311.44': the best constitutional law lawyers they '313.24': can be as well as teaching students '315.28': whose views on the issues coincide more '3164.359': you '317.86': with mine of course finding yourself '3185.92': you '3209.74': you '323.71': from the United States Supreme Court day '326.44': one when you walked in there and well '3275.81': you '333.25': this is gonna sound odd but I actually '337.15': felt more comfortable arguing in the US '34.02': struck by how incredibly gorgeous '340.84': Supreme Court then I felt arguing in '342.88': several of the courts of appeals where '344.95': I've argued in part because I clerked at '3455.96': you '346.75': the court and so the building was '348.82': familiar to me the personnel on the '350.62': court were familiar to me you don't have '352.63': the problem when you go to the Supreme '354.01': Court that you can handle on courts of '355.36': appeals which is you don't know who your '356.71': panel is until you get there so you've '359.53': thought about you've briefed the case '36.8': Chautauqua is a combination of just '361.419': for the people you're actually gonna '362.47': argue in front of the thing that's '364.21': amazing about the argument is how fast '366.37': it goes '367.6': mean a my first argument I only had 10 '3696.23': you '370.99': minutes because I was splitting time '372.4': with the Solicitor General and I feel '375.82': like I didn't take a breath the whole '377.29': time I was up there it just pushed by me '381.0': but there's something totally '383.17': exhilarating I sometimes say to my '385.72': students that arguing in front of the '387.79': Supreme Court is the most fun you can '389.26': have in 30 minutes in public wearing '39.45': physical gorgeousness and total charm '391.54': your clothes standing up being all by '393.37': yourself doing nothing but talking and I '396.37': I continue to feel that although I have '398.89': to say that the current court is so much '402.4': more conservative than both the court I '404.59': clerked on and the court I started '407.02': practicing in front of that's it's a '409.12': little less fun to go up there today '410.59': because it's a little harder to win the '412.27': cases that I tend to be arguing I '419.11': clicked for justice baikman in October '42.469': you know the houses and the people '421.72': term 1985 so it was the last year that '424.21': Chief Justice burger was chief justice '433.32': sure so I'll do them in order of '437.14': seniority because when justice Blackmun '439.69': used to come back from the conference '442.21': where it's just the nine justices in the '444.16': room and nobody else he would read us '446.29': his notes and he always read them in the '448.75': order the justices went which is the '45.629': walking around and everything was just '450.4': order of seniority so Chief Justice '452.92': burger he looked like a chief justice he '456.91': really did he by the time I got there '460.75': justice Blackmun and he although they '462.28': had been friends growing up and justice '464.32': Blackmun had actually been the best man '466.45': at chief justice burgers wedding by the '469.09': time I got there they really weren't '470.08': speaking to each other so I think my '471.97': views of the chief are colored somewhat '473.92': by how justice Blackmun felt about him '477.88': but the chief was very into ceremony he '48.239': it's just been delightful I hope to come '482.14': was fairly conservative not super '488.59': imaginative '490.68': my first encounter with him was there '493.11': was a party at the beginning of the term '495.54': for all of the clerks and the justices '497.37': dining-room and he came up to me and he '499.86': looked at me and he had been talking to '502.83': justice rehnquist and he looked at me '504.33': and he said well there there certainly '506.16': are a lot of you here this year and my '509.49': first reaction is how does he know I'm '51.84': back no I'm the first lawyer in the '510.69': Jewish but he actually met women because '514.29': there were seven women and so I said I '516.66': realized that's what he meant and I said '520.02': well you know justice blackmun has three '521.52': female clerks this year and it was the '523.02': first time in justice I had three and '524.76': the chief justice to me said well I '526.77': guess he's going to need a lot of help '528.09': huh and I said no no we're gonna do all '532.95': the cooking and cleaning ourselves but '536.22': so my experience what the chief was '539.75': somewhat odd justice justice Brennan was '545.43': the senior associate justice at the time '547.68': and he was extremely gregarious and '550.59': outgoing so he would you know how I how '555.6': I he would say and he had that kind of '557.37': New Jersey accent the other thing he '559.02': taught me I think this is one of the '560.58': things I've never forgotten this you '562.2': taught me how if you have to shake a lot '564.12': of people's hands to shake hands with '565.65': them which is you extend your hand and '567.36': then you grab their elbow because then '569.61': if they squeeze your hand too hard you '571.2': can squeeze their elbow and they'll '573.36': release their grip and he told me he '574.98': learned that in politics he was very '579.45': gregarious he was he made an effort I '584.4': think and I think it was a strategic '586.29': effort in addition to just his natural '587.97': outgoing personality to get to know a '590.22': lot of the clerks in the building '591.54': because I think he felt that that helped '593.36': him to enlist them kind of on his side '597.27': in a way justice White was a leader '6.45': advanced here every but it was exciting '600.78': frankfurter type person '604.46': yeah I think in a way I think in a way '608.02': justice frankfurter I'm sorry justice '611.089': white was the second most senior '614.029': associate justice he had given up '617.3': playing basketball with the clerk's by '618.98': the time I was there apparently a couple '620.54': of years before a clerk who had been '622.19': just frustrated by the justices somewhat '624.86': over rough play had just cold-cocked him '626.57': during a game but he's still putted with '629.149': his clerks for money after every '63.03': family I mean my grandmother's brother '630.529': afternoon and it was interesting my year '635.57': at the courts the division among the '639.83': justices the thing that most seemed to '643.399': divide them was there were a couple of '645.86': abortion cases and Lawrence against '648.92': Texas which was a case about the Georgia '65.07': in law was a lawyer but I didn't spend '652.43': sodomy I'm sorry not Lawrence against '654.2': Texas Bowers against Hardwick the case '655.94': about the Georgia sodomy statute which '657.77': was ultimately overruled by the Supreme '659.24': Court later in Lawrence against Texas '66.689': much time with him I actually decided to '661.19': and so there was a there was a little '663.29': bit of tension between justice Blackmun '665.18': and justice white because they were on '667.279': opposite sides of this two cases the '670.97': next justice down was justice Marshall '673.87': and by the time I got to the Supreme '676.82': Court he was I think he was he was quite '68.97': become a lawyer because when I was a '680.54': old I mean there were five of the '682.339': justices were over 75 the year I was '684.38': there he was quite old he wasn't in the '686.54': best of health and so he moved very '689.779': slowly and I think he was kind of angry '692.6': and alienated by then quite a bit from '694.79': the court but occasionally if he stopped '697.94': by his chambers in the afternoon he '699.68': would be in a storytelling mood and he '701.27': would just he was a marvellous '702.83': storyteller so you tell stories about '704.39': his time in practice I think you know I '707.3': think he was one of the obviously one of '71.64': junior in high school over that summer I '710.72': the most formative lawyers of the 20th '712.73': century but I think he's one of those '715.1': people if you were writing his biography '716.6': most of the good stuff happened before '718.76': he got to the Supreme Court as opposed '720.74': to some of the justices for whom the '722.75': Supreme Court really was the pinnacle of '724.85': their achievement '726.65': then there was just a splatter then came '733.85': justice Powell justice Powell had been '737.21': sick the year before and had been out '738.86': for quite some time and is still a '74.43': read simple justice which is a book by '741.35': little frail when I got there but you '743.69': know and kind of extraordinarily '745.48': gentlemanly one of the clerk's my year '748.78': had a serious had a serious medical '752.71': issue and justice justice Powell sent '756.92': flowers to the clerk afterwards you know '759.89': just the charming man um he switched his '76.38': Richard Kluger about the litigation that '765.05': vote in one of the biggest cases my year '766.85': Bowers against Hardwick and I think '769.01': justice Blackmun was convinced the chief '772.31': had lobbied him very hard on that case '774.88': he was the swing vote when I was there '777.35': and so a lot of issues so there was a '78.689': led up to Brown against Board of '780.11': lot of concentration on him after him '783.41': came justice Stevens '786.74': oh no justice rehnquist came and then '789.08': just as soon as it justice rehnquist '790.91': you know when he was an Associate '792.44': Justice I think was a little bit looser '795.83': than he was when he was chief justice '798.28': although the interesting thing for me is '8.28': today you had probably the largest crowd '80.13': Education and I decided I wanted to be a '800.63': when I went back to visit justice '802.43': blackmun after justice rehnquist had '805.7': taken over and became chief justice '807.02': rehnquist everybody loved him as chief '809.09': justice he's thought to be extremely '811.19': fair and balanced and straightforward in '813.74': a way that I think the liberal justices '815.48': had not felt about just as Chief Justice '818.54': burger but when I was there he was still '821.27': a relatively junior justice he was quite '823.37': often in dissent much more so than when '827.39': he became chief justice but very '829.79': friendly very casual his clerks were out '83.759': civil rights lawyer and work for the '832.73': of the building by 6 p.m. '835.27': midnight then after him came justice '838.0': Stevens who was exactly the same you '84.84': n-double-a-cp Legal Defense Fund so that '841.39': know interestingly quirky and always in '846.04': a bowtie he only had two clerks the '848.53': other justices all had four and there's '852.01': very much kind of his own his own person '854.92': and then came justice O'Connor who was '857.02': very junior obviously when I was there '858.61': she was in her I guess her fourth or '859.84': fifth term on the court and you know '864.18': extremely personable she ran a exercise '868.14': class for all the female clerks at 8:00 '87.96': book inspired me to become a lawyer 'no '871.45': a.m. and we were invited to go to it but '873.28': unfortunately justice Blackmun had '874.96': breakfast with all of his clerks at 8:00 '876.67': a.m. so I think we'd managed to get to '878.56': the exercise class two or three days '880.12': when he was out of town but other than '881.68': that we didn't go justice blackmun wrote '889.9': to me one of the more interesting '892.29': decisions and oh honey school yeah do '897.31': you guys ever have any reason to talk '898.81': about that well yes so I think it would '902.65': have been justice Blackmun's it might '907.48': have been his 80th birthday but it was '909.01': one of his big birthdays we're having a '91.32': snow there's a one discussion in that '910.57': clerks reunion and as you know in flood '912.97': against Kuhn which is the best buy in '914.68': entrust case there's this kind of '917.89': passage at the beginning of it that's a '919.84': list of famous baseball players and it '922.0': goes on and on and apparently if he '923.5': started out with about ten of them then '925.27': various people around the building would '926.53': suggest people and then somebody said '927.94': well but if you're going to include you '929.74': know if you're going to include tinker's '931.63': you have to include Evers own occlude '934.0': Evers you have to include chances so '935.2': they just that list kind of expanded and '938.41': expanded and there was a story in the '94.259': book about justice jackson and his then '940.66': Brethren that right after the opinion '944.89': came down somebody said to him how could '947.44': you not include Jimmie Foxx and he said '949.72': Jimmie Foxx was '952.24': and the president no he's not and the '954.77': Justice went back and looked at the list '956.36': and sure enough Jimmie Foxx is not on '957.71': the list and the line in the brethren is '960.77': something like and justice Biden said '962.09': I'll never forgive myself so for his for '965.33': his um for his 80th birthday I think it '968.66': was his 80th we decided we were going to '970.82': get him one of Jimmy Fox's bags and we '973.85': looked into it and we could not find one '975.83': but it turns out that Hilary Jim Bradley '978.05': I think that's what the Louisville '979.22': Slugger company's name is they keep the '98.189': law clerk William Rehnquist and the '981.35': measurements of every player on file for '984.23': their backs and so we went to them and '986.15': we had them replicate one of Jimmy Fox's '990.41': bats and we had it mounted on a plaque '992.57': and on the bottom it just said I will '994.88': never forgive myself '996.32': hav and we gave it to him the clerk saw '999.32': gave it to him for his his his birthday

/data/video_data.parquet/447/447259/7QD30-4wqZw/360p_3330.mp4

Pam Karlan (2012) interview

On Aug. 22, 2012, the Robert H. Jackson Center hosted Prof. Pam Karlan. She was the annual Robert H. Jackson lecturer at Chautauqua Institution. The interview was conducted by Greg Peterson and covered her career, reflections on her mentor Justice Harry Blackmun and legacy of Robert H. Jackson. For further information, see www.roberthjackson.org.

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'0.299': thank you for coming by the way this is '10.889': we've ever had for a Robert Jackson '1003.58': I saw it actually posted in his chambers '1007.9': the day he died after his funeral we all '101.39': famous or now infamous memorandum from '1010.36': went back to the chambers to hang out '1011.74': and there was the bat which I think was '1014.05': several people asked for it but I think '1016.24': it was given to the Library of Congress '1017.62': and the other thing about baseball that '1019.45': I is he had been a friend of the '1021.49': Griffiths who owned the then the '1024.459': Minneapolis Millers later the twins and '1027.97': so we would talk about baseball a lot it '1030.16': at breakfast and one day in the '1036.31': afternoon he I was in the upstairs '1038.8': chambers and I got a phone call used to '104.579': justice to justice Jackson from justice '1040.12': come down the Justice has somebody he '1042.52': wants you to meet and this group called '1044.35': the email verbum society was having its '1046.51': reunion in Washington I guess there's a '1048.13': Cubs thing and so there were these three '1053.5': guys and like bad fitting sports coats '1055.36': in his office and he introduced them to '1058.0': me and two of them I don't remember the '1059.14': name is because I'm not a Cubs fan at '1061.24': all but the last one was Andy Pafko who '1063.52': had been a Dodger as well '1065.96': at a nice conversation when afternoon '1068.299': with Andy Pafko '107.909': Rehnquist as you went through that '1070.789': and the last baseball thing I'll tell '1072.289': you is when justice blackmun retired '1074.539': from the Supreme Court I was asked to do '1076.639': one of the tributes for him in the '1078.379': Harvard Law Review and one of the things '1082.549': I talked about in the in the tribute was '1089.33': this article that been written called '1091.519': your law baseball quiz I think I told '1093.2': you about this last night where they '1094.34': compare different justices to different '1097.96': famous baseball players and I said that '110.13': clipper book in you and you've read '1100.85': you know so I tell the story of you know '1102.47': Jackie Jenson is like Byron white '1104.509': because they were both better at '1105.499': football and then I say you know and '1108.59': they compared the guy to this compared '111.93': about the activities of Thurgood '1110.769': Felix Frankfurter do among other things '1112.909': Wayne Terwilliger and I and I and then '1115.46': the art of I just set up foot and I said '1116.99': who is Wayne Terwilliger and so and then '1121.279': ultimately I said that if I had to pick '1122.99': somebody for justice blackmun to be like '1124.94': I had thought originally about Bobby '1126.529': Brown because justice like they wanted '1128.6': to be a doctor just like Bobby Brown '113.909': Marshall and William Coleman and the '1130.129': became a doctor and that I thought of '1132.32': you know a couple of other people like '1134.299': that you know Charlie Gehringer because '1136.549': it was a little tiny you know little '1141.32': tiny second baseman and you know a great '1143.529': fielder but not not a big batter and '1146.72': ultimately I came out with Dave Winfield '1148.58': which people might not have guessed '1149.779': because both of them came from st. Paul '1151.759': and made something of themselves both of '1153.86': them played the game long after many of '1155.809': their contemporaries had retired and '1157.279': both of them owed their start to a '1159.44': convicted but later pardoned Watergate '1161.629': felon to a later I'm sorry to a later '1164.809': pardoned Watergate felon because '1168.1': Blackman got his seat on the Supreme '1169.82': Court from Nixon and '117.21': whole cadre of people who were working '1172.94': George Steinbrenner's the person who '1174.68': gave Dave Winfield his biggest contract '1177.25': and so when I know sir yes so I read '1179.72': this and I wouldn't you know and the '1181.34': next time I visited the Justice that '1182.75': Justice said oh I really liked your your '1185.54': tribute a lot but come with me and he '1187.4': led me down the hall into a storeroom he '119.79': on the case did that inspire you to the '1190.67': was bending down at the Thurgood '1191.81': Marshall Center and he pulled out a copy '1193.82': of the baseball encyclopedia and he said '1197.09': this is Wayne Terwilliger and took me to '12.63': lecture and certainly the largest to '1200.45': the page twig I'd never heard of him and '1204.98': I'm a baseball fan and I'd never heard '1206.92': okay yeah I think until a few years ago '1209.33': still in baseball as a coach didn't even '1212.99': talk about Roe versus Wade ooh yes '1214.58': yeah um so the first time you talked '1216.95': about Roe vs. Wade is when I went to '1218.51': interview with him he had a justice '1221.48': blackmun would have been a tax lawyer '1223.1': before he was then counsel at the Mayo '1224.99': Clinic and he had exactly the habits you '1227.63': would expect from somebody who'd been a '1228.86': very good tax it's like incredibly '123.99': extent that you could find that that's a '1230.48': meticulous and precise and so when he '1232.34': interviewed people he had this long list '1234.32': of questions written out and he asked '1236.63': you the questions they wrote down the '1237.74': answers in pencil and towards the end of '1240.47': the interview he said now I want to ask '1242.54': you a question and I want you to think '1244.25': about this very carefully '1249.509': now I've written an opinion that's a '1252.239': little bit controversial and some people '1254.759': find that the kind of opinion that they '1257.549': have trouble with and you need to think '126.03': lineage that you could have '1260.549': about whether you would be comfortable '1261.809': working for me '1263.009': given the opinion and I'm sort of '1264.749': racking my brain to think like what '1266.249': opinion is he talking about '1268.799': and he said you may have heard of it and '127.74': yeah well I you know I decided I wanted '1271.049': now I'm thinking okay what is he gonna '1272.489': say '1272.909': he said it's called Roe against Wade and '1275.19': you know I'm a little bit of a kind of '1277.799': smartass sometimes and all I could think '1279.539': is just don't say oh my god you're that '1281.399': Harry Blackmun you're kidding but he '1284.519': actually had had a clerk apparently '1286.409': several years before who had in the '1288.119': middle of the year had a religious '1290.489': revelation that Roe was wrong and so '1295.139': that was the first time that I had a '1296.58': conversation then we had two abortion '1299.1': cases my year at the Supreme Court and '130.24': to work for the n-double-a-cp Legal '1300.96': it's actually the kind of high watermark '1303.359': of abortion rights at the Supreme Court '1305.07': was one of those cases the kids called '1306.45': Thornburg against American College of '1308.039': Obstetricians and Gynaecologists which '131.89': Defense Fund which is the organization '1310.649': the Justice wrote and so we had a fair '1313.859': number of conversations about abortion '1316.259': and he was convinced that you know that '1318.659': was also the first time that there was '1319.98': five to four who done a poll the kind of '1322.85': central premise of row because the Chief '1325.289': Justice which side so he talked about a '1327.419': lot then and then as you probably know '133.57': that bill Coleman and Charlie black and '1330.389': he used to teach at the Aspen Institute '1332.159': in the summer a justice and society '1335.039': class and he spent a day of that talking '1337.889': about the decision process leading up to '1339.929': Roe and I was there '1342.74': what do you say well he thought I mean '1345.87': it's interesting I think although he '1348.12': wouldn't I think he wouldn't put it '1350.309': quite this way his thoughts about ro '1352.02': evolved somewhat over time this when he '1355.29': started on the case his major you know '1358.95': the major focus for him was the practice '136.87': Lou and Thurgood Marshall and '1362.34': of medicine because he had come out of '1363.99': being counsel at the Mayo Clinic and he '1365.91': took very seriously they did it this was '1367.83': a medical procedure and therefore it was '1370.08': up to women in consultation with their '1372.78': doctors to make this decision in the way '1375.179': that would be true of all other medical '1376.919': procedures I think over time he came to '1379.049': see ro as equally about women's autonomy '138.64': Jack Greenberg were all part of and in '1383.76': that it wasn't mostly about medical '1386.07': autonomy it was about women's autonomy '1388.62': by the time I got there I think he was '1390.299': thinking about it and much those two '1392.79': things to have more much more in '1394.41': equipoise in being important to him but '1397.41': he just thought it was not the kind of '1398.91': decision that should be made '14.25': stay around well excellent yeah your '1400.4': categorically by the state as opposed to '1402.75': by individuals given the circumstances '1405.33': they found themselves in a gym ropes '1408.5': publicly switched no I think I think she '141.4': fact that's what I did do when I was in '1413.07': had said by then that she regretted '1414.84': having had the abortion but it wasn't '1416.85': until maybe about five years ago there '1419.22': so that she filed a sort of coram nobis '1420.75': training in Roe overturned if you had '1427.53': this pause and Sarah Gregg I've been in '143.11': law school I worked there for each of '1430.59': violence constitutional law business for '1432.44': since eighties and you had to pick kind '1436.5': of the five seminal cases to teach a '1439.98': master's class '144.73': the summers I was in law school '1444.52': five cases since the 1980s startup '1448.0': America okay '1449.26': doing a little baseline yeah was your '1451.35': people so if I had to pick the cases '1455.71': since I started since I started well '146.2': and then I was a staff lawyer there for '1462.4': you'd have to teach District of Columbia '1467.71': against Heller the Second Amendment case '1470.08': in part because it's just it's like a '1472.42': kind of kaleidoscope of all the '1474.28': different methods of constitutional '1475.96': interpretation it's got a little bit of '1477.46': originalism a little bit of textualism '1479.32': some pragmatic consequentialism a little '148.03': several years before I went into '1482.41': bit of the structure a constitutional '1484.179': structural reasoning and so although I '1486.49': know I'm not sure that the opinion has '1488.2': big legs that is I'm not sure that '149.44': teaching and I still continued to work '1490.03': there's going to be a lot of laws struck '1491.559': down that would have otherwise been '1492.73': upheld or like it's it's a it's a real '1496.45': window into contemporary constitutional '1499.12': law so I definitely teach that I think I '1503.53': would teach Lawrence against Texas '1506.62': because for substantive due process '1508.929': cases it's one of the most interesting '151.36': with them on cases so I'd like to think '1512.2': ones and you can see echoes of all of '1516.28': the sort of different prior cases in it '1519.87': I would definitely teach the Affordable '1525.49': Care Act case because it reviews huge '1529.48': amounts of constitutional law up till '1531.309': then and it sets down some markers for '1534.67': the future '1539.2': I'd have to teach one of the race cases '154.45': of myself as being part of the extended '1542.27': on the question of which race case to '1544.34': teach you know on the one hand Gruder is '1548.09': very important but I think maybe parents '1550.309': involved against Seattle School District '1552.86': number one is more significant because '1555.64': there's more of a discussion of what the '1557.809': meaning of brown is for modern times and '156.94': Legal Defense Fund family did you ever '1562.159': it's more of a contemporary court and '1567.01': then I mean there are a lot of different '1570.409': candidates because it depends on what '1572.48': you're trying to do in the master class '1573.799': that is if you're trying to say which '1575.09': cases have had the most impact on '1577.99': everyday people's lives that's going to '1580.279': be a different question than if you're '1581.75': sort of saying which cases give you the '1583.669': greatest insight into kind of how the '1587.39': justices think about things '159.7': catch up with any of those oh oh yes '1592.56': today if the presentation you gave '1595.58': wonderful wonderful conversation with '1603.56': Jackson and currency current issues '1609.48': which is of course the Jackson mission '1613.05': here is to create the relevancy of '1614.73': justice Jackson today and you did a '1617.82': phenomenal job of doing just that '1620.81': well they didn't mention one of the ones '1623.19': where he's been most influential because '1624.54': it was a lay audience which is the steel '1627.57': seizure drill the kind of three-part '1630.42': framework for determining the '1632.7': relationship between the executive power '1634.59': and legislative power and '1637.55': constitutionality but I thought to try '1640.47': and do that with a lay audience would be '1642.27': almost impossible two years ago John '1645.24': created an event at Albany Law School '1647.73': and Phil Neil said if there's anything '165.64': absolutely so I knew Jack greenberg '1655.08': one thing it probably needs to be done '1656.49': in law school so we got to teach Jackson '1659.13': and specifically his ability to write '1661.5': this style and also taking it to one '1664.35': step further which is what you did today '1666.74': is it realistic well I mean I could see '167.92': quite well I knew bill Coleman who was '1672.21': teaching a seminar it would be a great '1674.61': seminar to teach one justice through a '1678.23': range of cases I mean I've often so I '1682.23': have a friend who's also a law professor '1683.88': who once suggested you should teach a '1685.23': course called some like 342 us and the '1688.32': case book for the course would simply be '1689.85': that volume of us reports because I find '1692.76': that you can often see really '1694.98': interesting relationships between cases '1697.35': that don't look like they're about the '1699.27': same thing but that are decided around '170.17': chairman of the board of the Legal '1702.18': the same time so I think it'd be '1703.65': wonderful to have a course that focused '1705.72': on a single justice I mean you'd want it '1707.94': obviously to be an advanced con law '1709.74': class or an advanced law class more '171.52': Defense Fund by the time I was a lawyer '1712.2': general '1712.68': so that it might also involve statutory '1714.87': interpretation as well as constitutional '1716.55': interpretation but I think the the '1720.21': chance to read the unaccepted decisions '1723.09': of in particular justice you actually '1724.86': get a sense of what a an opinion looks '1726.75': like as opposed to what's in the case '1728.64': book which is a little bit of fact and '173.98': there quite well I met Thurgood Marshall '1730.62': then boom into the money language yeah '1733.95': it'd be great thing to do you can't '1738.39': there's so much so far because you look '1742.38': in the crystal ball for the next five '1743.7': years the pen Carlin is there books you '1747.18': want to write are their positions you'd '1749.52': like to get is there the ambitions of '1753.27': panco oh I well one of my ambitions is '1756.45': to be a better teacher you know I love '1759.9': teaching I love with the clinical '176.71': when I was clerking at the Supreme Court '1761.88': teaching and the regular teaching a '1763.47': little bit of it is also you know after '1766.29': you've done any particular thing for a '1768.09': while you're always looking for a little '1769.29': something new to do so for a while I was '1773.07': kind of some training almost entirely on '1774.39': election law stuff and now for the last '1776.64': six or seven years my primary focus has '1779.13': been this clinic about litigates cases '1780.9': at the Supreme Court so I was thinking '1782.85': like maybe it's around time to figure '1785.25': out what the next thing is I don't have '1787.62': you know ambitions to change my life '1789.9': permanently inside in some way '179.59': I knew Constance Baker motley from when '1792.85': I'd like to spend some time working at '1795.22': the Department of Justice I think you '1797.14': know the right job came along at the '1798.61': right time it's always one of these '18.9': first time to Chautauqua what's your '1800.2': questions of timing and job and like I '1802.03': mean I was offered the job that I would '1804.1': now like to have I was offered in the '1806.89': Clinton administration but it was the '1808.63': wrong time and I was changing schools at '1811.84': that point and I'm single you know I '1815.11': didn't want to take two years it's kind '1817.87': of a two-year detour but as you get '182.32': I was working at the district court in '1820.78': older it seems less of a detour and more '1822.52': of an opportunity just to serve and then '1824.62': go back to being just a country law '1828.46': professor '183.91': New York she was the chief judge when I '1831.01': okay so President Obama gets reelected '1835.83': Ruth Bader Ginsburg resides where the '1840.929': Kennedys well to figure out who the top '1846.37': three candidates are you would need to '1847.78': know what year she resigns in and what '1849.73': the Senate looks like because if the '185.29': was clerking on that Court and Bob '1852.429': Democrats have control of the Senate '1854.08': you'll see a different nominee than if '1856.48': the Republicans have control of the '1858.22': Senate some of it depends on you know '1864.07': people people can kind of shoot out of '1866.11': nowhere in various ways you know Elena '1870.88': Kagan was the first justice in probably '1874.95': what twenty years to be since Justice '1879.52': Rehnquist was the and justice Powell was '188.11': Carter I knew just from you know hanging '1881.5': the first justice to go on the Supreme '1883.0': Court not coming out of an appellate '1885.58': court I mean justice O'Connor was a '1887.41': state court and to be really accurate '1890.83': justice Souter was mostly a state court '1892.809': judge he had only been on the first '1896.23': circuit for less than a year but that's '1898.12': a different kind of pick and so be '1900.22': interesting to see whether the president '1901.72': decides to think about somebody's held '1904.059': elective office I mean that was one of '1905.65': the points I was making in my lecture '1907.99': today '1908.95': institution is that we don't have any '1912.59': balance Precourt with real nitty gritty '1916.6': running for office experience so I could '1919.789': see something like Jennifer Granholm or '192.1': around with civil rights lawyers so I '1923.169': lisa madigan who's Attorney General of '1926.12': Illinois or camel Harris is Attorney '1929.809': General of California you know the '193.99': think of all of the people who were '1934.22': president hasn't put a lot of women on '1937.64': the federal courts of appeals yet so if '1940.58': that's where you're looking you know '1942.52': it's not clear that there's a deep bench '1945.529': of Democrats there if it's a Republican '1949.399': kind if it's a Republican Senate he's '1951.23': going to have to move considerably '1953.36': towards the middle it's pretty hard to '1956.57': know Mitt Romney Jordan is nice up '196.24': still alive who had argued in brown by '1964.97': that's that's I was a stock hold of '1969.289': American Motors Corporation just once '1970.97': you know that South Fargo and Detroit '1973.88': Tigers friends put that on respected '1976.85': Mitt Romney was fully Republican and '1979.58': he's got the choice there two or three '1982.57': candidates that jump out to use logical '1985.61': yeah so I I would think for him the kind '1989.27': of obvious choices would be Brett '199.48': the time I was an adult I've met I get I '1991.97': Kavanaugh who's on the DC circuit very '1994.159': young very conservative Jeff Sutton from '1996.62': the sixth circuit young and conservative '1999.169': ents smart although Jeff probably didn't '2.04': Gregor you're us your startup has been '20.34': impressions of all this well I've been '2001.27': do himself a big favor when he upheld '2004.75': the Affordable Care Act and then I would '2009.34': think Paul Clemente who's the Solicitor '201.58': managed to meet them all I mean all of '2011.26': General would be '2013.419': in the Bush administration be a kind of '2015.399': obvious candidate those straight me as '2018.999': the people most likely in a Romney '2021.969': administration I'm smiling because dolly '2024.309': lives would answered the same question '2026.979': in the same way well '203.17': the people argued on the right side yeah '2030.659': paranoid paranoid liberal she had a '2033.009': couple of a couple of mail names to the '2035.229': democratic posted oh yeah I mean III I '2037.779': convinced I mean '2039.249': Judge garland would be you know if it's '204.76': did you find that with that did you find '2041.559': in the next year or two '2042.879': who's on the DC Circuit would be a kind '2045.669': of obvious candidate you know now that '2050.649': Paul Watford has gotten onto the ninth '2053.649': circuit '2054.429': he might be an extremely attractive '2056.71': candidate most important question she's '2063.579': baseball became its antitrust exemption '2066.149': well you know I'm a big bill James fan '2068.679': and Bill James has a discussion of this '2070.839': where he says that if you got rid of the '2072.519': antitrust exemption what you might start '2074.74': to see is a kind of proliferation of a '2077.829': third or fourth majorly don't was coming '2081.069': out of minor league teams I'm not sure '2086.589': what function the antitrust exemption '2089.609': really performs today given that there's '2092.139': now an agreement between the Players '2094.48': Association and the teams right you know '2098.47': and and a huge percentage ever since '210.61': that you went to law school and were '2101.349': free agency a huge percentage of the '2104.769': revenue has moved over to the players '2106.48': I'm not sure that the existing players '2108.43': would favor getting rid of me and I '2109.99': trust exemption such an anachronism yeah '2113.98': yeah but hard to see that it's actually '2116.92': having much effect on on the game itself '2119.4': and the real question is how you '2121.93': maintain competitive balance if you if '2124.569': you want to maintain the sport the real '2126.039': question is how to maintain competitive '2127.93': balance and without the antitrust '2129.22': exemption '213.37': there a lot of your classmates who found '2130.33': it might be harder easier Supreme Court '2133.72': Historical Society is celebrating the '2135.73': 40th anniversary of that decision and '2137.7': they have working with two podium '2144.82': individuals and a judge to sort of '2147.28': reenact the case and that simply take it '2149.5': through everything for me there I think '2152.35': folks do it all as far as any guidance '2154.15': no no I know flood against tuna was way '2157.21': before my time '2157.96': yeah but thank you I know I know but '216.67': that social part of the practice of law '2161.5': every time I say something critical '2163.75': about the Chief Justice and being an '2165.28': umpire diminish my chances of being '2168.43': invited to the flood against Hugh '2170.11': celebration well tell me about that well '2177.79': you wrote that did you get feedback did '2179.41': you like no not well the Chief Justice '2182.2': doesn't blow back there did somebody I '2184.39': mean if there's no no I mean I'd if '2188.02': there I was at an event where I talked '219.81': important well I think you know I have a '2190.66': about this and this may be kind of music '2196.03': so has an event where I talked about '2197.26': this a little bit of know you know but '2199.0': Chief Justice and the umpire analogy '22.41': hearing about Chautauqua for years when '2201.43': like and efforts Justice Thomas was had '2204.22': been there and he came up to me and said '2206.5': hey give you a little bicep a nice oh '2208.42': yeah sure mr. justice he said don't hold '2210.22': back '2210.49': tell us what you really think have you '2212.56': got a stop being that you've got to stop '2214.09': being so reticent so no you know the '2218.98': Chief Justice isn't just as a big boy '2220.96': yeah '2223.22': by the way Jen talked about Thursday '2226.01': I've been in social situations where '2227.48': he's been there in by far and away when '2229.16': all the justices are there and it '223.36': lot of friends from Moscow who have done '2230.78': Supreme Court Oracle society man well '2232.46': he's very outgoing you can get access '2234.619': immediate access to everybody but him '2236.27': because time it's only because you've '2238.25': got 40 50 people hanging on I mean it's '2240.74': just doctors you can't get them no he's '2243.14': got more social skills in one-on-one '2245.54': than the average surgeries are just '2247.13': essentially he slapped more people on '2249.829': the back down and all the reason of the '225.13': public interest practice or either for '2254.42': current justices and you've written '2257.69': about them what's what's your sense of '2264.73': Roberts decision you know how do you '2268.19': read that in the healthcare act I don't '227.68': private groups like the Legal Defense '2272.39': wanna say Obamacare because you don't '2273.5': want me to say about that well wrong '2278.06': news head I mean I don't want to crawl '2280.91': into his head I I was not surprised at '2284.27': all by most of what he wrote that is I '2286.28': was not surprised that he upheld it on '2287.839': taxing power grounds and I was not '229.45': Fund or for the government so yeah I '2291.89': surprised that he thought there was a '2294.68': spending Clause problem with Medicaid '2296.96': because those seem to me to be pretty '2299.93': predictable what did surprise me is how '2302.3': much he went out of his way to decide '2305.21': the Commerce Clause issue when it wasn't '2306.98': necessary to the bottom line because as '2308.9': you know he spent a lot of time talking '2310.849': about how we should did not decide the '2313.52': things we don't need to decide and then '2315.829': in this case he went out of his way to '2317.329': do it and he's done that before that is '2320.27': his opinion for the court in the new '2323.51': Mudd no case which is a case about '2325.9': constitutionality of section 5 of the '2327.61': Voting Rights Act the court ultimately '2329.08': decided it on very narrow statutory '233.47': think a fair number of the people I knew '2331.54': grounds but along the way he said a lot '2334.03': of nasty things about the Voting Rights '2335.5': Act um you know he was a clerk for '2341.5': Justice Rehnquist and observed Justice '2343.99': Rehnquist's Supreme Court career he is a '2346.72': huge fan of Chief Justice John Marshall '2349.72': and has thought a lot about John '235.81': in law school were very committed to '2351.34': Marshalls career and both of those men '2353.83': both Marshall and Rehnquist were '2357.19': extremely strategic and kept their eye '2360.91': on the long view and that's true for the '2364.93': Chief Justice as well '2365.92': the man is 57 years old he does not need '2369.67': to take all the cards off the table in '237.25': doing civil rights work and have done it '2371.62': one hand and I think his decision his '2376.45': opinion in the affordable care act case '2379.33': was an extremely strategic decision so '2384.01': that somebody and all sides could have '2386.32': think once they read it they read it '2389.25': fine glass they can get something out of '2392.05': that well he it's designed to make him '2394.99': appear statesman like right which is he '2399.55': sort of says look you there's this '24.029': I was growing up because my grandmother '240.04': in one form or another '2401.74': passage towards the beginning of his '2403.72': opinion where he says it's not our job '2405.73': to save the people from the consequences '2408.07': of their political decisions our job is '241.27': their careers constitutional law of all '2410.08': to apply the law well what is that '2412.42': supposed to mean '2413.35': and not our job to save the people from '2415.45': their consequences their political '2416.65': decisions in other words saying if you '2418.21': pass a stupid statute like this don't '2419.98': expect us to fix it so I think it was '2424.48': designed to make him appear '2428.01': non-political right he's he's turning '2432.19': his back on the Tea Party agenda '2434.289': case while also allowing him to say a '2437.739': bunch of nasty things about the kind of '2442.479': liberal welfare state and I think he '2446.819': gained a fair amount of capital from the '2449.38': decision there that will stand him in '245.74': that was was at the area which obviously '2451.329': good stead when he spends it on issues '2453.039': he cares more about I don't think the '2454.689': Commerce Clause is the biggest issue for '2457.059': the chief justice that he cares about in '2458.829': constitutional law but certainly don't '2461.529': think the taxing powers Robert Jackson '2465.279': Center you're here today the thrilled '2467.199': you are here today and we are here to '2469.749': advance the legacy of Justice Robert '2472.029': Jackson I had Michael Berenbaum whom you '2474.429': met sitting at seat just yesterday '2476.559': asking him you know if he had some '2478.599': advice for us for only 11 years old or '248.85': established a reputation well the kind '2481.119': work-in-progress as to areas of which to '2484.209': find ourselves and if you had to give us '2487.509': some guidance panel well if you think '2490.9': about justice Jackson right what are the '2492.999': kind of things he's most known for the '2496.539': Nuremberg trials which obviously have '2499.239': continued bearing on the world today '25.56': and her first cousin came every summer '2502.839': because of '2505.44': the rise of international war crimes '2508.98': tribunals and Human Rights Tribunal '2511.17': sunlight I mean obviously that's one '2513.78': area where you know he serves as a kind '2516.869': of focal point for the United States on '2518.819': that and then the other thing I think is '252.85': of irony about that is when I got to law '2523.05': legal writing to go back to the point '2526.2': you were making about Phil Neal earlier '2527.819': that justice Jackson was such a clear '2531.0': writer and thinker I think it'd just be '2534.42': really useful to think about how do you '2538.55': perpetuate that legacy I mean you know '2542.46': you can read a Robert Jackson opinion '2544.319': today and it speaks to you whereas you '2547.5': know you read some of the opinions from '2548.97': the if you know from the Warren burger '255.31': school my first semester in law school I '2554.42': Rehnquist and Roberts courts and they're '2557.88': just impenetrable '2561.35': or they're impenetrable sort of masses '2565.49': of soupy mass with a couple of quotable '2568.25': lines thrown and the thing that's '257.26': was assigned to constitutional law with '2570.32': interesting you know and made it a '2572.06': little hard when I was preparing my talk '2573.92': for today for the Jackson centers '2575.18': sometimes the best Jackson quotations '2577.55': are two or three paragraphs long because '2581.09': he's setting up an argument and then '2583.66': explaining the argument as he goes '2585.71': through it '2586.22': I mean he's not he isn't even though '2587.96': he's got some of the greatest one-liners '2589.64': in Supreme Court history that's not '259.72': Robert Bork so I'm not sure that what I '2591.47': actually what makes him the greatest '2593.0': writer in some ways and so getting '2595.49': people to focus more on legal writing '2597.94': would you do that boy you know that's an '2601.73': interesting question I mean I think it'd '2606.77': be great to have to have you know have '2610.49': something that gives people a sense of '2612.11': how good his writing was you know some '2617.39': of it depends on which audiences you're '2618.86': aiming at I mean I think having a legal '2621.71': writing thing where you bring in judges '2623.48': and talk to them about legal write it I '2625.61': mean especially like state Supreme Court '2627.74': justice is often don't get much training '263.65': learned in first-year constitutional law '2630.5': and how to write an opinion or how to '2631.88': think about it '2637.569': what hurry black would mean to pimp oh '2641.259': he was he was everything he was just '2644.539': such a great boss and he and he was so '2648.47': meticulous I mean one of the things that '2650.269': he really taught me was attention to '2652.549': detail because he was very much a detail '2654.799': man and just an extremely brave man I '2658.67': mean the year before I clerked for the '266.49': stuck I I knew I disagreed with him and '2660.65': summer that I clerk from your that that '2663.529': previous spring you know when he came '2665.45': back to start eating breakfast with us '2667.94': we had a US Marshal and a Supreme Court '2669.71': police officer with us every morning at '2672.38': breakfast and the reason for that is '2673.64': that he had been shot out the year '2675.769': before he got up to go to the kitchen '2678.74': and a bullet came through the window and '2680.66': landed in the chair it did sitting in '2682.97': mmm one of the things he then ended up '2685.039': with it was a huge kerfuffle with his '2687.829': insurance company because there was a '2689.329': pair of upholstered chairs and the FBI '2692.21': came and like cut out a huge chunk of '2694.609': the chair that the bullet had gone into '2696.289': and he wanted to have both the chairs '2697.97': recovered and the insurance company said '2699.74': well there's nothing wrong with the '270.85': I didn't really know why I disagreed '2700.7': other chair so they've been over the '2703.339': back and forth over the chairs but you '2706.339': know he he was very principled he stuck '2709.099': to his principles and he was '2712.869': unbelievably hard-working I mean however '2715.13': hard I work I never work as hard as he '2717.38': worked '2719.52': you're the eighth speaker in Robert H '272.92': with him because I think for me the '2721.95': ejection lectureship and you've raised '2724.65': the bar very very high today '2728.16': whoo so how lucky that you're doing this '2730.26': that Mambo thing and everybody can get '2732.6': under it more easily now well that's who '2735.69': would you recommend to Jen and I next '2738.6': year '2738.99': oh so thinking about like we've had '274.87': difficulty in the way he taught us he '2743.49': solicitor jabber solicit think about '2745.74': like who is it that I love to listen to '2748.53': when they talk about law that you '2752.04': haven't had because you've had Paul '2753.78': Clemente company yeah and you've had '2755.82': Dahlia who I love listening to you know '276.46': was very fast very quick very witty and '2765.6': Bill Marshall is a really interesting '2767.66': guy - I find him just really interesting '2772.62': to listen to '2780.41': in terms of in terms of '2783.82': you know one person who'd be interesting '2785.89': to have because he's now off the bench '2787.66': and he's talking a lot more frankly '2790.21': about a lot of stuff is Vaughn Walker '2791.5': who was a federal district judge in '2793.51': California he's a really interesting '2795.43': speaker and obviously decide a huge '2797.62': number of important cases including the '2799.36': California marriage case I would think '28.92': and so I was excited to get a chance to '280.9': you're a first-year law student and so '2802.12': he'd be super interesting '2808.41': just kind of thinking '2816.84': you know my colleague Michael McConnell '2818.61': is a super interesting speaker on '282.58': even if you know you disagree with him '2821.13': virtually everything '2826.18': one person you know because I think you '2830.23': know who might be really interesting is '2831.46': sherrilyn Ifill he's a professor at the '2833.499': University of Maryland who has is '2837.49': writing right now about judicial '2839.38': confirmation hmm processes and she's an '284.05': it's hard to formulate what your '2843.069': unbelievably great and dynamic speaker '2846.42': so she might be a good person '2851.02': I should show you the clip of Dalia '2852.76': talking about you I love doll yeah I '2856.0': love dolly she's so into she wrote she '2859.48': wrote a piece this past year that was my '286.06': disagreements are and I think I didn't '2861.369': favorite piece of all time about '2863.17': corporate personhood it was about this '2865.27': little nothing burg case called that I '2867.28': think was FCC against AT&T it was a case '2869.68': about an exemption under the Freedom of '2872.829': Information Act for things that would '2876.849': interfere with the personal privacy of '2879.46': an individual and AT&T said well we '288.61': teach constitutional law until I've been '2882.79': should be able to protect ourselves here '2884.47': and that Court ultimately helped that '2887.2': they shouldn't and that Chief Justice '2888.579': makes some jokes about AT&T and not '2891.19': taking anything personally in this '2892.54': opinion but she wrote a description of '2894.7': the oral argument the case that was '2895.93': written completely as if 18t were a '2898.21': person and it's just it's just marvelous '290.38': teaching for quite some time in part '2901.98': question that is often asked oh no you '2904.809': know me you should definitely also think '2906.25': about his Walter Dellinger who is a '2908.17': great speaker and it was not on the '2912.22': court during the Robert Jackson use but '2913.96': was a Hugo black Clarke in the 1960s '2919.42': question that gets off in a spiral a '292.6': because I didn't want to have my '2921.76': radio guy is if you've had a chance to '2924.97': have dinner '2927.19': '- John Gemini anybody in history you can' '2933.01': choose three guests who did related '2937.24': somebody you're fine '2938.47': just extremely fascinating - really well '2942.24': that's it you know that's such a hard '2944.44': question cuz okay you want to have '2948.7': dinner with us somebody who will '2949.57': actually talk to you about that stuff as '295.63': students experience constitutional line '2951.79': opposed to somebody who won't talk about '2955.69': right so you might be really interested '2957.82': in knowing what somebody thinks but if '2959.98': they're very guarded then the dinner '2961.99': would be kind of painful so no no I know '2964.69': but I'm a law professor so I would '2966.82': really love to have dinner with Franklin '2969.04': Roosevelt I would really love to have '297.61': the way I had experienced it as the '2971.95': dinner with Franklin Roosevelt's and '2975.58': although I think I would have to like be '2978.16': extremely careful and sit at the other '2980.5': end of the table I'd actually love to '2982.15': have dinner with Lyndon Johnson as just '2984.64': reading the last of the following the '2986.83': Latin most recent in the bottoms of the '2988.0': Kara biography I'm just fascinated by '299.56': professor having a very strong point of '2990.94': him I just you know I'd love to and the '2997.12': other person I would love to have dinner '2998.74': with because I just love to know more '3001.11': about what made her who she was is '3003.42': Fannie Lou Hamer hmm I mean you know '3007.32': where did you get the kind of courage to '301.27': view that kind of overwhelmed whatever '3011.49': stick with it like '3016.35': this is an aside I recently interviewed '3018.9': Andrew Young and he talked they gave him '3022.14': a flash cards all the people who civil '3024.63': rights movement it was I had 20 minute '3027.27': stop that was all I had '3028.35': and I gave it to him as a baseball cards '3030.21': yeah just tell me who's left throws even '3033.21': further like oh yeah this is great '304.24': values you came into law school with so '3045.78': you are terrific and unfortunately '3051.32': looking forward to it I'm looking '3053.64': forward to what's the line about you '3055.71': know you can summarize every Jewish '3057.15': holiday in nine words they tried to kill '3059.1': us they didn't let see Cindy just texted '306.43': those tried to be very careful that I '3065.04': she's going to the restaurant '3066.63': I know we have there was she's tagging '3068.04': on two verses you got the word out right '3069.6': so was one of the partner we're gonna '3077.07': turn fishermen six okay perfect '308.14': teach my conservative students how to be '31.859': come up and when I arrived I was just '311.44': the best constitutional law lawyers they '313.24': can be as well as teaching students '315.28': whose views on the issues coincide more '3164.359': you '317.86': with mine of course finding yourself '3185.92': you '3209.74': you '323.71': from the United States Supreme Court day '326.44': one when you walked in there and well '3275.81': you '333.25': this is gonna sound odd but I actually '337.15': felt more comfortable arguing in the US '34.02': struck by how incredibly gorgeous '340.84': Supreme Court then I felt arguing in '342.88': several of the courts of appeals where '344.95': I've argued in part because I clerked at '3455.96': you '346.75': the court and so the building was '348.82': familiar to me the personnel on the '350.62': court were familiar to me you don't have '352.63': the problem when you go to the Supreme '354.01': Court that you can handle on courts of '355.36': appeals which is you don't know who your '356.71': panel is until you get there so you've '359.53': thought about you've briefed the case '36.8': Chautauqua is a combination of just '361.419': for the people you're actually gonna '362.47': argue in front of the thing that's '364.21': amazing about the argument is how fast '366.37': it goes '367.6': mean a my first argument I only had 10 '3696.23': you '370.99': minutes because I was splitting time '372.4': with the Solicitor General and I feel '375.82': like I didn't take a breath the whole '377.29': time I was up there it just pushed by me '381.0': but there's something totally '383.17': exhilarating I sometimes say to my '385.72': students that arguing in front of the '387.79': Supreme Court is the most fun you can '389.26': have in 30 minutes in public wearing '39.45': physical gorgeousness and total charm '391.54': your clothes standing up being all by '393.37': yourself doing nothing but talking and I '396.37': I continue to feel that although I have '398.89': to say that the current court is so much '402.4': more conservative than both the court I '404.59': clerked on and the court I started '407.02': practicing in front of that's it's a '409.12': little less fun to go up there today '410.59': because it's a little harder to win the '412.27': cases that I tend to be arguing I '419.11': clicked for justice baikman in October '42.469': you know the houses and the people '421.72': term 1985 so it was the last year that '424.21': Chief Justice burger was chief justice '433.32': sure so I'll do them in order of '437.14': seniority because when justice Blackmun '439.69': used to come back from the conference '442.21': where it's just the nine justices in the '444.16': room and nobody else he would read us '446.29': his notes and he always read them in the '448.75': order the justices went which is the '45.629': walking around and everything was just '450.4': order of seniority so Chief Justice '452.92': burger he looked like a chief justice he '456.91': really did he by the time I got there '460.75': justice Blackmun and he although they '462.28': had been friends growing up and justice '464.32': Blackmun had actually been the best man '466.45': at chief justice burgers wedding by the '469.09': time I got there they really weren't '470.08': speaking to each other so I think my '471.97': views of the chief are colored somewhat '473.92': by how justice Blackmun felt about him '477.88': but the chief was very into ceremony he '48.239': it's just been delightful I hope to come '482.14': was fairly conservative not super '488.59': imaginative '490.68': my first encounter with him was there '493.11': was a party at the beginning of the term '495.54': for all of the clerks and the justices '497.37': dining-room and he came up to me and he '499.86': looked at me and he had been talking to '502.83': justice rehnquist and he looked at me '504.33': and he said well there there certainly '506.16': are a lot of you here this year and my '509.49': first reaction is how does he know I'm '51.84': back no I'm the first lawyer in the '510.69': Jewish but he actually met women because '514.29': there were seven women and so I said I '516.66': realized that's what he meant and I said '520.02': well you know justice blackmun has three '521.52': female clerks this year and it was the '523.02': first time in justice I had three and '524.76': the chief justice to me said well I '526.77': guess he's going to need a lot of help '528.09': huh and I said no no we're gonna do all '532.95': the cooking and cleaning ourselves but '536.22': so my experience what the chief was '539.75': somewhat odd justice justice Brennan was '545.43': the senior associate justice at the time '547.68': and he was extremely gregarious and '550.59': outgoing so he would you know how I how '555.6': I he would say and he had that kind of '557.37': New Jersey accent the other thing he '559.02': taught me I think this is one of the '560.58': things I've never forgotten this you '562.2': taught me how if you have to shake a lot '564.12': of people's hands to shake hands with '565.65': them which is you extend your hand and '567.36': then you grab their elbow because then '569.61': if they squeeze your hand too hard you '571.2': can squeeze their elbow and they'll '573.36': release their grip and he told me he '574.98': learned that in politics he was very '579.45': gregarious he was he made an effort I '584.4': think and I think it was a strategic '586.29': effort in addition to just his natural '587.97': outgoing personality to get to know a '590.22': lot of the clerks in the building '591.54': because I think he felt that that helped '593.36': him to enlist them kind of on his side '597.27': in a way justice White was a leader '6.45': advanced here every but it was exciting '600.78': frankfurter type person '604.46': yeah I think in a way I think in a way '608.02': justice frankfurter I'm sorry justice '611.089': white was the second most senior '614.029': associate justice he had given up '617.3': playing basketball with the clerk's by '618.98': the time I was there apparently a couple '620.54': of years before a clerk who had been '622.19': just frustrated by the justices somewhat '624.86': over rough play had just cold-cocked him '626.57': during a game but he's still putted with '629.149': his clerks for money after every '63.03': family I mean my grandmother's brother '630.529': afternoon and it was interesting my year '635.57': at the courts the division among the '639.83': justices the thing that most seemed to '643.399': divide them was there were a couple of '645.86': abortion cases and Lawrence against '648.92': Texas which was a case about the Georgia '65.07': in law was a lawyer but I didn't spend '652.43': sodomy I'm sorry not Lawrence against '654.2': Texas Bowers against Hardwick the case '655.94': about the Georgia sodomy statute which '657.77': was ultimately overruled by the Supreme '659.24': Court later in Lawrence against Texas '66.689': much time with him I actually decided to '661.19': and so there was a there was a little '663.29': bit of tension between justice Blackmun '665.18': and justice white because they were on '667.279': opposite sides of this two cases the '670.97': next justice down was justice Marshall '673.87': and by the time I got to the Supreme '676.82': Court he was I think he was he was quite '68.97': become a lawyer because when I was a '680.54': old I mean there were five of the '682.339': justices were over 75 the year I was '684.38': there he was quite old he wasn't in the '686.54': best of health and so he moved very '689.779': slowly and I think he was kind of angry '692.6': and alienated by then quite a bit from '694.79': the court but occasionally if he stopped '697.94': by his chambers in the afternoon he '699.68': would be in a storytelling mood and he '701.27': would just he was a marvellous '702.83': storyteller so you tell stories about '704.39': his time in practice I think you know I '707.3': think he was one of the obviously one of '71.64': junior in high school over that summer I '710.72': the most formative lawyers of the 20th '712.73': century but I think he's one of those '715.1': people if you were writing his biography '716.6': most of the good stuff happened before '718.76': he got to the Supreme Court as opposed '720.74': to some of the justices for whom the '722.75': Supreme Court really was the pinnacle of '724.85': their achievement '726.65': then there was just a splatter then came '733.85': justice Powell justice Powell had been '737.21': sick the year before and had been out '738.86': for quite some time and is still a '74.43': read simple justice which is a book by '741.35': little frail when I got there but you '743.69': know and kind of extraordinarily '745.48': gentlemanly one of the clerk's my year '748.78': had a serious had a serious medical '752.71': issue and justice justice Powell sent '756.92': flowers to the clerk afterwards you know '759.89': just the charming man um he switched his '76.38': Richard Kluger about the litigation that '765.05': vote in one of the biggest cases my year '766.85': Bowers against Hardwick and I think '769.01': justice Blackmun was convinced the chief '772.31': had lobbied him very hard on that case '774.88': he was the swing vote when I was there '777.35': and so a lot of issues so there was a '78.689': led up to Brown against Board of '780.11': lot of concentration on him after him '783.41': came justice Stevens '786.74': oh no justice rehnquist came and then '789.08': just as soon as it justice rehnquist '790.91': you know when he was an Associate '792.44': Justice I think was a little bit looser '795.83': than he was when he was chief justice '798.28': although the interesting thing for me is '8.28': today you had probably the largest crowd '80.13': Education and I decided I wanted to be a '800.63': when I went back to visit justice '802.43': blackmun after justice rehnquist had '805.7': taken over and became chief justice '807.02': rehnquist everybody loved him as chief '809.09': justice he's thought to be extremely '811.19': fair and balanced and straightforward in '813.74': a way that I think the liberal justices '815.48': had not felt about just as Chief Justice '818.54': burger but when I was there he was still '821.27': a relatively junior justice he was quite '823.37': often in dissent much more so than when '827.39': he became chief justice but very '829.79': friendly very casual his clerks were out '83.759': civil rights lawyer and work for the '832.73': of the building by 6 p.m. '835.27': midnight then after him came justice '838.0': Stevens who was exactly the same you '84.84': n-double-a-cp Legal Defense Fund so that '841.39': know interestingly quirky and always in '846.04': a bowtie he only had two clerks the '848.53': other justices all had four and there's '852.01': very much kind of his own his own person '854.92': and then came justice O'Connor who was '857.02': very junior obviously when I was there '858.61': she was in her I guess her fourth or '859.84': fifth term on the court and you know '864.18': extremely personable she ran a exercise '868.14': class for all the female clerks at 8:00 '87.96': book inspired me to become a lawyer 'no '871.45': a.m. and we were invited to go to it but '873.28': unfortunately justice Blackmun had '874.96': breakfast with all of his clerks at 8:00 '876.67': a.m. so I think we'd managed to get to '878.56': the exercise class two or three days '880.12': when he was out of town but other than '881.68': that we didn't go justice blackmun wrote '889.9': to me one of the more interesting '892.29': decisions and oh honey school yeah do '897.31': you guys ever have any reason to talk '898.81': about that well yes so I think it would '902.65': have been justice Blackmun's it might '907.48': have been his 80th birthday but it was '909.01': one of his big birthdays we're having a '91.32': snow there's a one discussion in that '910.57': clerks reunion and as you know in flood '912.97': against Kuhn which is the best buy in '914.68': entrust case there's this kind of '917.89': passage at the beginning of it that's a '919.84': list of famous baseball players and it '922.0': goes on and on and apparently if he '923.5': started out with about ten of them then '925.27': various people around the building would '926.53': suggest people and then somebody said '927.94': well but if you're going to include you '929.74': know if you're going to include tinker's '931.63': you have to include Evers own occlude '934.0': Evers you have to include chances so '935.2': they just that list kind of expanded and '938.41': expanded and there was a story in the '94.259': book about justice jackson and his then '940.66': Brethren that right after the opinion '944.89': came down somebody said to him how could '947.44': you not include Jimmie Foxx and he said '949.72': Jimmie Foxx was '952.24': and the president no he's not and the '954.77': Justice went back and looked at the list '956.36': and sure enough Jimmie Foxx is not on '957.71': the list and the line in the brethren is '960.77': something like and justice Biden said '962.09': I'll never forgive myself so for his for '965.33': his um for his 80th birthday I think it '968.66': was his 80th we decided we were going to '970.82': get him one of Jimmy Fox's bags and we '973.85': looked into it and we could not find one '975.83': but it turns out that Hilary Jim Bradley '978.05': I think that's what the Louisville '979.22': Slugger company's name is they keep the '98.189': law clerk William Rehnquist and the '981.35': measurements of every player on file for '984.23': their backs and so we went to them and '986.15': we had them replicate one of Jimmy Fox's '990.41': bats and we had it mounted on a plaque '992.57': and on the bottom it just said I will '994.88': never forgive myself '996.32': hav and we gave it to him the clerk saw '999.32': gave it to him for his his his birthday

/data/video_data.parquet/447/447259/7QD30-4wqZw/360p_3420.mp4

Pam Karlan (2012) interview

On Aug. 22, 2012, the Robert H. Jackson Center hosted Prof. Pam Karlan. She was the annual Robert H. Jackson lecturer at Chautauqua Institution. The interview was conducted by Greg Peterson and covered her career, reflections on her mentor Justice Harry Blackmun and legacy of Robert H. Jackson. For further information, see www.roberthjackson.org.

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'0.299': thank you for coming by the way this is '10.889': we've ever had for a Robert Jackson '1003.58': I saw it actually posted in his chambers '1007.9': the day he died after his funeral we all '101.39': famous or now infamous memorandum from '1010.36': went back to the chambers to hang out '1011.74': and there was the bat which I think was '1014.05': several people asked for it but I think '1016.24': it was given to the Library of Congress '1017.62': and the other thing about baseball that '1019.45': I is he had been a friend of the '1021.49': Griffiths who owned the then the '1024.459': Minneapolis Millers later the twins and '1027.97': so we would talk about baseball a lot it '1030.16': at breakfast and one day in the '1036.31': afternoon he I was in the upstairs '1038.8': chambers and I got a phone call used to '104.579': justice to justice Jackson from justice '1040.12': come down the Justice has somebody he '1042.52': wants you to meet and this group called '1044.35': the email verbum society was having its '1046.51': reunion in Washington I guess there's a '1048.13': Cubs thing and so there were these three '1053.5': guys and like bad fitting sports coats '1055.36': in his office and he introduced them to '1058.0': me and two of them I don't remember the '1059.14': name is because I'm not a Cubs fan at '1061.24': all but the last one was Andy Pafko who '1063.52': had been a Dodger as well '1065.96': at a nice conversation when afternoon '1068.299': with Andy Pafko '107.909': Rehnquist as you went through that '1070.789': and the last baseball thing I'll tell '1072.289': you is when justice blackmun retired '1074.539': from the Supreme Court I was asked to do '1076.639': one of the tributes for him in the '1078.379': Harvard Law Review and one of the things '1082.549': I talked about in the in the tribute was '1089.33': this article that been written called '1091.519': your law baseball quiz I think I told '1093.2': you about this last night where they '1094.34': compare different justices to different '1097.96': famous baseball players and I said that '110.13': clipper book in you and you've read '1100.85': you know so I tell the story of you know '1102.47': Jackie Jenson is like Byron white '1104.509': because they were both better at '1105.499': football and then I say you know and '1108.59': they compared the guy to this compared '111.93': about the activities of Thurgood '1110.769': Felix Frankfurter do among other things '1112.909': Wayne Terwilliger and I and I and then '1115.46': the art of I just set up foot and I said '1116.99': who is Wayne Terwilliger and so and then '1121.279': ultimately I said that if I had to pick '1122.99': somebody for justice blackmun to be like '1124.94': I had thought originally about Bobby '1126.529': Brown because justice like they wanted '1128.6': to be a doctor just like Bobby Brown '113.909': Marshall and William Coleman and the '1130.129': became a doctor and that I thought of '1132.32': you know a couple of other people like '1134.299': that you know Charlie Gehringer because '1136.549': it was a little tiny you know little '1141.32': tiny second baseman and you know a great '1143.529': fielder but not not a big batter and '1146.72': ultimately I came out with Dave Winfield '1148.58': which people might not have guessed '1149.779': because both of them came from st. Paul '1151.759': and made something of themselves both of '1153.86': them played the game long after many of '1155.809': their contemporaries had retired and '1157.279': both of them owed their start to a '1159.44': convicted but later pardoned Watergate '1161.629': felon to a later I'm sorry to a later '1164.809': pardoned Watergate felon because '1168.1': Blackman got his seat on the Supreme '1169.82': Court from Nixon and '117.21': whole cadre of people who were working '1172.94': George Steinbrenner's the person who '1174.68': gave Dave Winfield his biggest contract '1177.25': and so when I know sir yes so I read '1179.72': this and I wouldn't you know and the '1181.34': next time I visited the Justice that '1182.75': Justice said oh I really liked your your '1185.54': tribute a lot but come with me and he '1187.4': led me down the hall into a storeroom he '119.79': on the case did that inspire you to the '1190.67': was bending down at the Thurgood '1191.81': Marshall Center and he pulled out a copy '1193.82': of the baseball encyclopedia and he said '1197.09': this is Wayne Terwilliger and took me to '12.63': lecture and certainly the largest to '1200.45': the page twig I'd never heard of him and '1204.98': I'm a baseball fan and I'd never heard '1206.92': okay yeah I think until a few years ago '1209.33': still in baseball as a coach didn't even '1212.99': talk about Roe versus Wade ooh yes '1214.58': yeah um so the first time you talked '1216.95': about Roe vs. Wade is when I went to '1218.51': interview with him he had a justice '1221.48': blackmun would have been a tax lawyer '1223.1': before he was then counsel at the Mayo '1224.99': Clinic and he had exactly the habits you '1227.63': would expect from somebody who'd been a '1228.86': very good tax it's like incredibly '123.99': extent that you could find that that's a '1230.48': meticulous and precise and so when he '1232.34': interviewed people he had this long list '1234.32': of questions written out and he asked '1236.63': you the questions they wrote down the '1237.74': answers in pencil and towards the end of '1240.47': the interview he said now I want to ask '1242.54': you a question and I want you to think '1244.25': about this very carefully '1249.509': now I've written an opinion that's a '1252.239': little bit controversial and some people '1254.759': find that the kind of opinion that they '1257.549': have trouble with and you need to think '126.03': lineage that you could have '1260.549': about whether you would be comfortable '1261.809': working for me '1263.009': given the opinion and I'm sort of '1264.749': racking my brain to think like what '1266.249': opinion is he talking about '1268.799': and he said you may have heard of it and '127.74': yeah well I you know I decided I wanted '1271.049': now I'm thinking okay what is he gonna '1272.489': say '1272.909': he said it's called Roe against Wade and '1275.19': you know I'm a little bit of a kind of '1277.799': smartass sometimes and all I could think '1279.539': is just don't say oh my god you're that '1281.399': Harry Blackmun you're kidding but he '1284.519': actually had had a clerk apparently '1286.409': several years before who had in the '1288.119': middle of the year had a religious '1290.489': revelation that Roe was wrong and so '1295.139': that was the first time that I had a '1296.58': conversation then we had two abortion '1299.1': cases my year at the Supreme Court and '130.24': to work for the n-double-a-cp Legal '1300.96': it's actually the kind of high watermark '1303.359': of abortion rights at the Supreme Court '1305.07': was one of those cases the kids called '1306.45': Thornburg against American College of '1308.039': Obstetricians and Gynaecologists which '131.89': Defense Fund which is the organization '1310.649': the Justice wrote and so we had a fair '1313.859': number of conversations about abortion '1316.259': and he was convinced that you know that '1318.659': was also the first time that there was '1319.98': five to four who done a poll the kind of '1322.85': central premise of row because the Chief '1325.289': Justice which side so he talked about a '1327.419': lot then and then as you probably know '133.57': that bill Coleman and Charlie black and '1330.389': he used to teach at the Aspen Institute '1332.159': in the summer a justice and society '1335.039': class and he spent a day of that talking '1337.889': about the decision process leading up to '1339.929': Roe and I was there '1342.74': what do you say well he thought I mean '1345.87': it's interesting I think although he '1348.12': wouldn't I think he wouldn't put it '1350.309': quite this way his thoughts about ro '1352.02': evolved somewhat over time this when he '1355.29': started on the case his major you know '1358.95': the major focus for him was the practice '136.87': Lou and Thurgood Marshall and '1362.34': of medicine because he had come out of '1363.99': being counsel at the Mayo Clinic and he '1365.91': took very seriously they did it this was '1367.83': a medical procedure and therefore it was '1370.08': up to women in consultation with their '1372.78': doctors to make this decision in the way '1375.179': that would be true of all other medical '1376.919': procedures I think over time he came to '1379.049': see ro as equally about women's autonomy '138.64': Jack Greenberg were all part of and in '1383.76': that it wasn't mostly about medical '1386.07': autonomy it was about women's autonomy '1388.62': by the time I got there I think he was '1390.299': thinking about it and much those two '1392.79': things to have more much more in '1394.41': equipoise in being important to him but '1397.41': he just thought it was not the kind of '1398.91': decision that should be made '14.25': stay around well excellent yeah your '1400.4': categorically by the state as opposed to '1402.75': by individuals given the circumstances '1405.33': they found themselves in a gym ropes '1408.5': publicly switched no I think I think she '141.4': fact that's what I did do when I was in '1413.07': had said by then that she regretted '1414.84': having had the abortion but it wasn't '1416.85': until maybe about five years ago there '1419.22': so that she filed a sort of coram nobis '1420.75': training in Roe overturned if you had '1427.53': this pause and Sarah Gregg I've been in '143.11': law school I worked there for each of '1430.59': violence constitutional law business for '1432.44': since eighties and you had to pick kind '1436.5': of the five seminal cases to teach a '1439.98': master's class '144.73': the summers I was in law school '1444.52': five cases since the 1980s startup '1448.0': America okay '1449.26': doing a little baseline yeah was your '1451.35': people so if I had to pick the cases '1455.71': since I started since I started well '146.2': and then I was a staff lawyer there for '1462.4': you'd have to teach District of Columbia '1467.71': against Heller the Second Amendment case '1470.08': in part because it's just it's like a '1472.42': kind of kaleidoscope of all the '1474.28': different methods of constitutional '1475.96': interpretation it's got a little bit of '1477.46': originalism a little bit of textualism '1479.32': some pragmatic consequentialism a little '148.03': several years before I went into '1482.41': bit of the structure a constitutional '1484.179': structural reasoning and so although I '1486.49': know I'm not sure that the opinion has '1488.2': big legs that is I'm not sure that '149.44': teaching and I still continued to work '1490.03': there's going to be a lot of laws struck '1491.559': down that would have otherwise been '1492.73': upheld or like it's it's a it's a real '1496.45': window into contemporary constitutional '1499.12': law so I definitely teach that I think I '1503.53': would teach Lawrence against Texas '1506.62': because for substantive due process '1508.929': cases it's one of the most interesting '151.36': with them on cases so I'd like to think '1512.2': ones and you can see echoes of all of '1516.28': the sort of different prior cases in it '1519.87': I would definitely teach the Affordable '1525.49': Care Act case because it reviews huge '1529.48': amounts of constitutional law up till '1531.309': then and it sets down some markers for '1534.67': the future '1539.2': I'd have to teach one of the race cases '154.45': of myself as being part of the extended '1542.27': on the question of which race case to '1544.34': teach you know on the one hand Gruder is '1548.09': very important but I think maybe parents '1550.309': involved against Seattle School District '1552.86': number one is more significant because '1555.64': there's more of a discussion of what the '1557.809': meaning of brown is for modern times and '156.94': Legal Defense Fund family did you ever '1562.159': it's more of a contemporary court and '1567.01': then I mean there are a lot of different '1570.409': candidates because it depends on what '1572.48': you're trying to do in the master class '1573.799': that is if you're trying to say which '1575.09': cases have had the most impact on '1577.99': everyday people's lives that's going to '1580.279': be a different question than if you're '1581.75': sort of saying which cases give you the '1583.669': greatest insight into kind of how the '1587.39': justices think about things '159.7': catch up with any of those oh oh yes '1592.56': today if the presentation you gave '1595.58': wonderful wonderful conversation with '1603.56': Jackson and currency current issues '1609.48': which is of course the Jackson mission '1613.05': here is to create the relevancy of '1614.73': justice Jackson today and you did a '1617.82': phenomenal job of doing just that '1620.81': well they didn't mention one of the ones '1623.19': where he's been most influential because '1624.54': it was a lay audience which is the steel '1627.57': seizure drill the kind of three-part '1630.42': framework for determining the '1632.7': relationship between the executive power '1634.59': and legislative power and '1637.55': constitutionality but I thought to try '1640.47': and do that with a lay audience would be '1642.27': almost impossible two years ago John '1645.24': created an event at Albany Law School '1647.73': and Phil Neil said if there's anything '165.64': absolutely so I knew Jack greenberg '1655.08': one thing it probably needs to be done '1656.49': in law school so we got to teach Jackson '1659.13': and specifically his ability to write '1661.5': this style and also taking it to one '1664.35': step further which is what you did today '1666.74': is it realistic well I mean I could see '167.92': quite well I knew bill Coleman who was '1672.21': teaching a seminar it would be a great '1674.61': seminar to teach one justice through a '1678.23': range of cases I mean I've often so I '1682.23': have a friend who's also a law professor '1683.88': who once suggested you should teach a '1685.23': course called some like 342 us and the '1688.32': case book for the course would simply be '1689.85': that volume of us reports because I find '1692.76': that you can often see really '1694.98': interesting relationships between cases '1697.35': that don't look like they're about the '1699.27': same thing but that are decided around '170.17': chairman of the board of the Legal '1702.18': the same time so I think it'd be '1703.65': wonderful to have a course that focused '1705.72': on a single justice I mean you'd want it '1707.94': obviously to be an advanced con law '1709.74': class or an advanced law class more '171.52': Defense Fund by the time I was a lawyer '1712.2': general '1712.68': so that it might also involve statutory '1714.87': interpretation as well as constitutional '1716.55': interpretation but I think the the '1720.21': chance to read the unaccepted decisions '1723.09': of in particular justice you actually '1724.86': get a sense of what a an opinion looks '1726.75': like as opposed to what's in the case '1728.64': book which is a little bit of fact and '173.98': there quite well I met Thurgood Marshall '1730.62': then boom into the money language yeah '1733.95': it'd be great thing to do you can't '1738.39': there's so much so far because you look '1742.38': in the crystal ball for the next five '1743.7': years the pen Carlin is there books you '1747.18': want to write are their positions you'd '1749.52': like to get is there the ambitions of '1753.27': panco oh I well one of my ambitions is '1756.45': to be a better teacher you know I love '1759.9': teaching I love with the clinical '176.71': when I was clerking at the Supreme Court '1761.88': teaching and the regular teaching a '1763.47': little bit of it is also you know after '1766.29': you've done any particular thing for a '1768.09': while you're always looking for a little '1769.29': something new to do so for a while I was '1773.07': kind of some training almost entirely on '1774.39': election law stuff and now for the last '1776.64': six or seven years my primary focus has '1779.13': been this clinic about litigates cases '1780.9': at the Supreme Court so I was thinking '1782.85': like maybe it's around time to figure '1785.25': out what the next thing is I don't have '1787.62': you know ambitions to change my life '1789.9': permanently inside in some way '179.59': I knew Constance Baker motley from when '1792.85': I'd like to spend some time working at '1795.22': the Department of Justice I think you '1797.14': know the right job came along at the '1798.61': right time it's always one of these '18.9': first time to Chautauqua what's your '1800.2': questions of timing and job and like I '1802.03': mean I was offered the job that I would '1804.1': now like to have I was offered in the '1806.89': Clinton administration but it was the '1808.63': wrong time and I was changing schools at '1811.84': that point and I'm single you know I '1815.11': didn't want to take two years it's kind '1817.87': of a two-year detour but as you get '182.32': I was working at the district court in '1820.78': older it seems less of a detour and more '1822.52': of an opportunity just to serve and then '1824.62': go back to being just a country law '1828.46': professor '183.91': New York she was the chief judge when I '1831.01': okay so President Obama gets reelected '1835.83': Ruth Bader Ginsburg resides where the '1840.929': Kennedys well to figure out who the top '1846.37': three candidates are you would need to '1847.78': know what year she resigns in and what '1849.73': the Senate looks like because if the '185.29': was clerking on that Court and Bob '1852.429': Democrats have control of the Senate '1854.08': you'll see a different nominee than if '1856.48': the Republicans have control of the '1858.22': Senate some of it depends on you know '1864.07': people people can kind of shoot out of '1866.11': nowhere in various ways you know Elena '1870.88': Kagan was the first justice in probably '1874.95': what twenty years to be since Justice '1879.52': Rehnquist was the and justice Powell was '188.11': Carter I knew just from you know hanging '1881.5': the first justice to go on the Supreme '1883.0': Court not coming out of an appellate '1885.58': court I mean justice O'Connor was a '1887.41': state court and to be really accurate '1890.83': justice Souter was mostly a state court '1892.809': judge he had only been on the first '1896.23': circuit for less than a year but that's '1898.12': a different kind of pick and so be '1900.22': interesting to see whether the president '1901.72': decides to think about somebody's held '1904.059': elective office I mean that was one of '1905.65': the points I was making in my lecture '1907.99': today '1908.95': institution is that we don't have any '1912.59': balance Precourt with real nitty gritty '1916.6': running for office experience so I could '1919.789': see something like Jennifer Granholm or '192.1': around with civil rights lawyers so I '1923.169': lisa madigan who's Attorney General of '1926.12': Illinois or camel Harris is Attorney '1929.809': General of California you know the '193.99': think of all of the people who were '1934.22': president hasn't put a lot of women on '1937.64': the federal courts of appeals yet so if '1940.58': that's where you're looking you know '1942.52': it's not clear that there's a deep bench '1945.529': of Democrats there if it's a Republican '1949.399': kind if it's a Republican Senate he's '1951.23': going to have to move considerably '1953.36': towards the middle it's pretty hard to '1956.57': know Mitt Romney Jordan is nice up '196.24': still alive who had argued in brown by '1964.97': that's that's I was a stock hold of '1969.289': American Motors Corporation just once '1970.97': you know that South Fargo and Detroit '1973.88': Tigers friends put that on respected '1976.85': Mitt Romney was fully Republican and '1979.58': he's got the choice there two or three '1982.57': candidates that jump out to use logical '1985.61': yeah so I I would think for him the kind '1989.27': of obvious choices would be Brett '199.48': the time I was an adult I've met I get I '1991.97': Kavanaugh who's on the DC circuit very '1994.159': young very conservative Jeff Sutton from '1996.62': the sixth circuit young and conservative '1999.169': ents smart although Jeff probably didn't '2.04': Gregor you're us your startup has been '20.34': impressions of all this well I've been '2001.27': do himself a big favor when he upheld '2004.75': the Affordable Care Act and then I would '2009.34': think Paul Clemente who's the Solicitor '201.58': managed to meet them all I mean all of '2011.26': General would be '2013.419': in the Bush administration be a kind of '2015.399': obvious candidate those straight me as '2018.999': the people most likely in a Romney '2021.969': administration I'm smiling because dolly '2024.309': lives would answered the same question '2026.979': in the same way well '203.17': the people argued on the right side yeah '2030.659': paranoid paranoid liberal she had a '2033.009': couple of a couple of mail names to the '2035.229': democratic posted oh yeah I mean III I '2037.779': convinced I mean '2039.249': Judge garland would be you know if it's '204.76': did you find that with that did you find '2041.559': in the next year or two '2042.879': who's on the DC Circuit would be a kind '2045.669': of obvious candidate you know now that '2050.649': Paul Watford has gotten onto the ninth '2053.649': circuit '2054.429': he might be an extremely attractive '2056.71': candidate most important question she's '2063.579': baseball became its antitrust exemption '2066.149': well you know I'm a big bill James fan '2068.679': and Bill James has a discussion of this '2070.839': where he says that if you got rid of the '2072.519': antitrust exemption what you might start '2074.74': to see is a kind of proliferation of a '2077.829': third or fourth majorly don't was coming '2081.069': out of minor league teams I'm not sure '2086.589': what function the antitrust exemption '2089.609': really performs today given that there's '2092.139': now an agreement between the Players '2094.48': Association and the teams right you know '2098.47': and and a huge percentage ever since '210.61': that you went to law school and were '2101.349': free agency a huge percentage of the '2104.769': revenue has moved over to the players '2106.48': I'm not sure that the existing players '2108.43': would favor getting rid of me and I '2109.99': trust exemption such an anachronism yeah '2113.98': yeah but hard to see that it's actually '2116.92': having much effect on on the game itself '2119.4': and the real question is how you '2121.93': maintain competitive balance if you if '2124.569': you want to maintain the sport the real '2126.039': question is how to maintain competitive '2127.93': balance and without the antitrust '2129.22': exemption '213.37': there a lot of your classmates who found '2130.33': it might be harder easier Supreme Court '2133.72': Historical Society is celebrating the '2135.73': 40th anniversary of that decision and '2137.7': they have working with two podium '2144.82': individuals and a judge to sort of '2147.28': reenact the case and that simply take it '2149.5': through everything for me there I think '2152.35': folks do it all as far as any guidance '2154.15': no no I know flood against tuna was way '2157.21': before my time '2157.96': yeah but thank you I know I know but '216.67': that social part of the practice of law '2161.5': every time I say something critical '2163.75': about the Chief Justice and being an '2165.28': umpire diminish my chances of being '2168.43': invited to the flood against Hugh '2170.11': celebration well tell me about that well '2177.79': you wrote that did you get feedback did '2179.41': you like no not well the Chief Justice '2182.2': doesn't blow back there did somebody I '2184.39': mean if there's no no I mean I'd if '2188.02': there I was at an event where I talked '219.81': important well I think you know I have a '2190.66': about this and this may be kind of music '2196.03': so has an event where I talked about '2197.26': this a little bit of know you know but '2199.0': Chief Justice and the umpire analogy '22.41': hearing about Chautauqua for years when '2201.43': like and efforts Justice Thomas was had '2204.22': been there and he came up to me and said '2206.5': hey give you a little bicep a nice oh '2208.42': yeah sure mr. justice he said don't hold '2210.22': back '2210.49': tell us what you really think have you '2212.56': got a stop being that you've got to stop '2214.09': being so reticent so no you know the '2218.98': Chief Justice isn't just as a big boy '2220.96': yeah '2223.22': by the way Jen talked about Thursday '2226.01': I've been in social situations where '2227.48': he's been there in by far and away when '2229.16': all the justices are there and it '223.36': lot of friends from Moscow who have done '2230.78': Supreme Court Oracle society man well '2232.46': he's very outgoing you can get access '2234.619': immediate access to everybody but him '2236.27': because time it's only because you've '2238.25': got 40 50 people hanging on I mean it's '2240.74': just doctors you can't get them no he's '2243.14': got more social skills in one-on-one '2245.54': than the average surgeries are just '2247.13': essentially he slapped more people on '2249.829': the back down and all the reason of the '225.13': public interest practice or either for '2254.42': current justices and you've written '2257.69': about them what's what's your sense of '2264.73': Roberts decision you know how do you '2268.19': read that in the healthcare act I don't '227.68': private groups like the Legal Defense '2272.39': wanna say Obamacare because you don't '2273.5': want me to say about that well wrong '2278.06': news head I mean I don't want to crawl '2280.91': into his head I I was not surprised at '2284.27': all by most of what he wrote that is I '2286.28': was not surprised that he upheld it on '2287.839': taxing power grounds and I was not '229.45': Fund or for the government so yeah I '2291.89': surprised that he thought there was a '2294.68': spending Clause problem with Medicaid '2296.96': because those seem to me to be pretty '2299.93': predictable what did surprise me is how '2302.3': much he went out of his way to decide '2305.21': the Commerce Clause issue when it wasn't '2306.98': necessary to the bottom line because as '2308.9': you know he spent a lot of time talking '2310.849': about how we should did not decide the '2313.52': things we don't need to decide and then '2315.829': in this case he went out of his way to '2317.329': do it and he's done that before that is '2320.27': his opinion for the court in the new '2323.51': Mudd no case which is a case about '2325.9': constitutionality of section 5 of the '2327.61': Voting Rights Act the court ultimately '2329.08': decided it on very narrow statutory '233.47': think a fair number of the people I knew '2331.54': grounds but along the way he said a lot '2334.03': of nasty things about the Voting Rights '2335.5': Act um you know he was a clerk for '2341.5': Justice Rehnquist and observed Justice '2343.99': Rehnquist's Supreme Court career he is a '2346.72': huge fan of Chief Justice John Marshall '2349.72': and has thought a lot about John '235.81': in law school were very committed to '2351.34': Marshalls career and both of those men '2353.83': both Marshall and Rehnquist were '2357.19': extremely strategic and kept their eye '2360.91': on the long view and that's true for the '2364.93': Chief Justice as well '2365.92': the man is 57 years old he does not need '2369.67': to take all the cards off the table in '237.25': doing civil rights work and have done it '2371.62': one hand and I think his decision his '2376.45': opinion in the affordable care act case '2379.33': was an extremely strategic decision so '2384.01': that somebody and all sides could have '2386.32': think once they read it they read it '2389.25': fine glass they can get something out of '2392.05': that well he it's designed to make him '2394.99': appear statesman like right which is he '2399.55': sort of says look you there's this '24.029': I was growing up because my grandmother '240.04': in one form or another '2401.74': passage towards the beginning of his '2403.72': opinion where he says it's not our job '2405.73': to save the people from the consequences '2408.07': of their political decisions our job is '241.27': their careers constitutional law of all '2410.08': to apply the law well what is that '2412.42': supposed to mean '2413.35': and not our job to save the people from '2415.45': their consequences their political '2416.65': decisions in other words saying if you '2418.21': pass a stupid statute like this don't '2419.98': expect us to fix it so I think it was '2424.48': designed to make him appear '2428.01': non-political right he's he's turning '2432.19': his back on the Tea Party agenda '2434.289': case while also allowing him to say a '2437.739': bunch of nasty things about the kind of '2442.479': liberal welfare state and I think he '2446.819': gained a fair amount of capital from the '2449.38': decision there that will stand him in '245.74': that was was at the area which obviously '2451.329': good stead when he spends it on issues '2453.039': he cares more about I don't think the '2454.689': Commerce Clause is the biggest issue for '2457.059': the chief justice that he cares about in '2458.829': constitutional law but certainly don't '2461.529': think the taxing powers Robert Jackson '2465.279': Center you're here today the thrilled '2467.199': you are here today and we are here to '2469.749': advance the legacy of Justice Robert '2472.029': Jackson I had Michael Berenbaum whom you '2474.429': met sitting at seat just yesterday '2476.559': asking him you know if he had some '2478.599': advice for us for only 11 years old or '248.85': established a reputation well the kind '2481.119': work-in-progress as to areas of which to '2484.209': find ourselves and if you had to give us '2487.509': some guidance panel well if you think '2490.9': about justice Jackson right what are the '2492.999': kind of things he's most known for the '2496.539': Nuremberg trials which obviously have '2499.239': continued bearing on the world today '25.56': and her first cousin came every summer '2502.839': because of '2505.44': the rise of international war crimes '2508.98': tribunals and Human Rights Tribunal '2511.17': sunlight I mean obviously that's one '2513.78': area where you know he serves as a kind '2516.869': of focal point for the United States on '2518.819': that and then the other thing I think is '252.85': of irony about that is when I got to law '2523.05': legal writing to go back to the point '2526.2': you were making about Phil Neal earlier '2527.819': that justice Jackson was such a clear '2531.0': writer and thinker I think it'd just be '2534.42': really useful to think about how do you '2538.55': perpetuate that legacy I mean you know '2542.46': you can read a Robert Jackson opinion '2544.319': today and it speaks to you whereas you '2547.5': know you read some of the opinions from '2548.97': the if you know from the Warren burger '255.31': school my first semester in law school I '2554.42': Rehnquist and Roberts courts and they're '2557.88': just impenetrable '2561.35': or they're impenetrable sort of masses '2565.49': of soupy mass with a couple of quotable '2568.25': lines thrown and the thing that's '257.26': was assigned to constitutional law with '2570.32': interesting you know and made it a '2572.06': little hard when I was preparing my talk '2573.92': for today for the Jackson centers '2575.18': sometimes the best Jackson quotations '2577.55': are two or three paragraphs long because '2581.09': he's setting up an argument and then '2583.66': explaining the argument as he goes '2585.71': through it '2586.22': I mean he's not he isn't even though '2587.96': he's got some of the greatest one-liners '2589.64': in Supreme Court history that's not '259.72': Robert Bork so I'm not sure that what I '2591.47': actually what makes him the greatest '2593.0': writer in some ways and so getting '2595.49': people to focus more on legal writing '2597.94': would you do that boy you know that's an '2601.73': interesting question I mean I think it'd '2606.77': be great to have to have you know have '2610.49': something that gives people a sense of '2612.11': how good his writing was you know some '2617.39': of it depends on which audiences you're '2618.86': aiming at I mean I think having a legal '2621.71': writing thing where you bring in judges '2623.48': and talk to them about legal write it I '2625.61': mean especially like state Supreme Court '2627.74': justice is often don't get much training '263.65': learned in first-year constitutional law '2630.5': and how to write an opinion or how to '2631.88': think about it '2637.569': what hurry black would mean to pimp oh '2641.259': he was he was everything he was just '2644.539': such a great boss and he and he was so '2648.47': meticulous I mean one of the things that '2650.269': he really taught me was attention to '2652.549': detail because he was very much a detail '2654.799': man and just an extremely brave man I '2658.67': mean the year before I clerked for the '266.49': stuck I I knew I disagreed with him and '2660.65': summer that I clerk from your that that '2663.529': previous spring you know when he came '2665.45': back to start eating breakfast with us '2667.94': we had a US Marshal and a Supreme Court '2669.71': police officer with us every morning at '2672.38': breakfast and the reason for that is '2673.64': that he had been shot out the year '2675.769': before he got up to go to the kitchen '2678.74': and a bullet came through the window and '2680.66': landed in the chair it did sitting in '2682.97': mmm one of the things he then ended up '2685.039': with it was a huge kerfuffle with his '2687.829': insurance company because there was a '2689.329': pair of upholstered chairs and the FBI '2692.21': came and like cut out a huge chunk of '2694.609': the chair that the bullet had gone into '2696.289': and he wanted to have both the chairs '2697.97': recovered and the insurance company said '2699.74': well there's nothing wrong with the '270.85': I didn't really know why I disagreed '2700.7': other chair so they've been over the '2703.339': back and forth over the chairs but you '2706.339': know he he was very principled he stuck '2709.099': to his principles and he was '2712.869': unbelievably hard-working I mean however '2715.13': hard I work I never work as hard as he '2717.38': worked '2719.52': you're the eighth speaker in Robert H '272.92': with him because I think for me the '2721.95': ejection lectureship and you've raised '2724.65': the bar very very high today '2728.16': whoo so how lucky that you're doing this '2730.26': that Mambo thing and everybody can get '2732.6': under it more easily now well that's who '2735.69': would you recommend to Jen and I next '2738.6': year '2738.99': oh so thinking about like we've had '274.87': difficulty in the way he taught us he '2743.49': solicitor jabber solicit think about '2745.74': like who is it that I love to listen to '2748.53': when they talk about law that you '2752.04': haven't had because you've had Paul '2753.78': Clemente company yeah and you've had '2755.82': Dahlia who I love listening to you know '276.46': was very fast very quick very witty and '2765.6': Bill Marshall is a really interesting '2767.66': guy - I find him just really interesting '2772.62': to listen to '2780.41': in terms of in terms of '2783.82': you know one person who'd be interesting '2785.89': to have because he's now off the bench '2787.66': and he's talking a lot more frankly '2790.21': about a lot of stuff is Vaughn Walker '2791.5': who was a federal district judge in '2793.51': California he's a really interesting '2795.43': speaker and obviously decide a huge '2797.62': number of important cases including the '2799.36': California marriage case I would think '28.92': and so I was excited to get a chance to '280.9': you're a first-year law student and so '2802.12': he'd be super interesting '2808.41': just kind of thinking '2816.84': you know my colleague Michael McConnell '2818.61': is a super interesting speaker on '282.58': even if you know you disagree with him '2821.13': virtually everything '2826.18': one person you know because I think you '2830.23': know who might be really interesting is '2831.46': sherrilyn Ifill he's a professor at the '2833.499': University of Maryland who has is '2837.49': writing right now about judicial '2839.38': confirmation hmm processes and she's an '284.05': it's hard to formulate what your '2843.069': unbelievably great and dynamic speaker '2846.42': so she might be a good person '2851.02': I should show you the clip of Dalia '2852.76': talking about you I love doll yeah I '2856.0': love dolly she's so into she wrote she '2859.48': wrote a piece this past year that was my '286.06': disagreements are and I think I didn't '2861.369': favorite piece of all time about '2863.17': corporate personhood it was about this '2865.27': little nothing burg case called that I '2867.28': think was FCC against AT&T it was a case '2869.68': about an exemption under the Freedom of '2872.829': Information Act for things that would '2876.849': interfere with the personal privacy of '2879.46': an individual and AT&T said well we '288.61': teach constitutional law until I've been '2882.79': should be able to protect ourselves here '2884.47': and that Court ultimately helped that '2887.2': they shouldn't and that Chief Justice '2888.579': makes some jokes about AT&T and not '2891.19': taking anything personally in this '2892.54': opinion but she wrote a description of '2894.7': the oral argument the case that was '2895.93': written completely as if 18t were a '2898.21': person and it's just it's just marvelous '290.38': teaching for quite some time in part '2901.98': question that is often asked oh no you '2904.809': know me you should definitely also think '2906.25': about his Walter Dellinger who is a '2908.17': great speaker and it was not on the '2912.22': court during the Robert Jackson use but '2913.96': was a Hugo black Clarke in the 1960s '2919.42': question that gets off in a spiral a '292.6': because I didn't want to have my '2921.76': radio guy is if you've had a chance to '2924.97': have dinner '2927.19': '- John Gemini anybody in history you can' '2933.01': choose three guests who did related '2937.24': somebody you're fine '2938.47': just extremely fascinating - really well '2942.24': that's it you know that's such a hard '2944.44': question cuz okay you want to have '2948.7': dinner with us somebody who will '2949.57': actually talk to you about that stuff as '295.63': students experience constitutional line '2951.79': opposed to somebody who won't talk about '2955.69': right so you might be really interested '2957.82': in knowing what somebody thinks but if '2959.98': they're very guarded then the dinner '2961.99': would be kind of painful so no no I know '2964.69': but I'm a law professor so I would '2966.82': really love to have dinner with Franklin '2969.04': Roosevelt I would really love to have '297.61': the way I had experienced it as the '2971.95': dinner with Franklin Roosevelt's and '2975.58': although I think I would have to like be '2978.16': extremely careful and sit at the other '2980.5': end of the table I'd actually love to '2982.15': have dinner with Lyndon Johnson as just '2984.64': reading the last of the following the '2986.83': Latin most recent in the bottoms of the '2988.0': Kara biography I'm just fascinated by '299.56': professor having a very strong point of '2990.94': him I just you know I'd love to and the '2997.12': other person I would love to have dinner '2998.74': with because I just love to know more '3001.11': about what made her who she was is '3003.42': Fannie Lou Hamer hmm I mean you know '3007.32': where did you get the kind of courage to '301.27': view that kind of overwhelmed whatever '3011.49': stick with it like '3016.35': this is an aside I recently interviewed '3018.9': Andrew Young and he talked they gave him '3022.14': a flash cards all the people who civil '3024.63': rights movement it was I had 20 minute '3027.27': stop that was all I had '3028.35': and I gave it to him as a baseball cards '3030.21': yeah just tell me who's left throws even '3033.21': further like oh yeah this is great '304.24': values you came into law school with so '3045.78': you are terrific and unfortunately '3051.32': looking forward to it I'm looking '3053.64': forward to what's the line about you '3055.71': know you can summarize every Jewish '3057.15': holiday in nine words they tried to kill '3059.1': us they didn't let see Cindy just texted '306.43': those tried to be very careful that I '3065.04': she's going to the restaurant '3066.63': I know we have there was she's tagging '3068.04': on two verses you got the word out right '3069.6': so was one of the partner we're gonna '3077.07': turn fishermen six okay perfect '308.14': teach my conservative students how to be '31.859': come up and when I arrived I was just '311.44': the best constitutional law lawyers they '313.24': can be as well as teaching students '315.28': whose views on the issues coincide more '3164.359': you '317.86': with mine of course finding yourself '3185.92': you '3209.74': you '323.71': from the United States Supreme Court day '326.44': one when you walked in there and well '3275.81': you '333.25': this is gonna sound odd but I actually '337.15': felt more comfortable arguing in the US '34.02': struck by how incredibly gorgeous '340.84': Supreme Court then I felt arguing in '342.88': several of the courts of appeals where '344.95': I've argued in part because I clerked at '3455.96': you '346.75': the court and so the building was '348.82': familiar to me the personnel on the '350.62': court were familiar to me you don't have '352.63': the problem when you go to the Supreme '354.01': Court that you can handle on courts of '355.36': appeals which is you don't know who your '356.71': panel is until you get there so you've '359.53': thought about you've briefed the case '36.8': Chautauqua is a combination of just '361.419': for the people you're actually gonna '362.47': argue in front of the thing that's '364.21': amazing about the argument is how fast '366.37': it goes '367.6': mean a my first argument I only had 10 '3696.23': you '370.99': minutes because I was splitting time '372.4': with the Solicitor General and I feel '375.82': like I didn't take a breath the whole '377.29': time I was up there it just pushed by me '381.0': but there's something totally '383.17': exhilarating I sometimes say to my '385.72': students that arguing in front of the '387.79': Supreme Court is the most fun you can '389.26': have in 30 minutes in public wearing '39.45': physical gorgeousness and total charm '391.54': your clothes standing up being all by '393.37': yourself doing nothing but talking and I '396.37': I continue to feel that although I have '398.89': to say that the current court is so much '402.4': more conservative than both the court I '404.59': clerked on and the court I started '407.02': practicing in front of that's it's a '409.12': little less fun to go up there today '410.59': because it's a little harder to win the '412.27': cases that I tend to be arguing I '419.11': clicked for justice baikman in October '42.469': you know the houses and the people '421.72': term 1985 so it was the last year that '424.21': Chief Justice burger was chief justice '433.32': sure so I'll do them in order of '437.14': seniority because when justice Blackmun '439.69': used to come back from the conference '442.21': where it's just the nine justices in the '444.16': room and nobody else he would read us '446.29': his notes and he always read them in the '448.75': order the justices went which is the '45.629': walking around and everything was just '450.4': order of seniority so Chief Justice '452.92': burger he looked like a chief justice he '456.91': really did he by the time I got there '460.75': justice Blackmun and he although they '462.28': had been friends growing up and justice '464.32': Blackmun had actually been the best man '466.45': at chief justice burgers wedding by the '469.09': time I got there they really weren't '470.08': speaking to each other so I think my '471.97': views of the chief are colored somewhat '473.92': by how justice Blackmun felt about him '477.88': but the chief was very into ceremony he '48.239': it's just been delightful I hope to come '482.14': was fairly conservative not super '488.59': imaginative '490.68': my first encounter with him was there '493.11': was a party at the beginning of the term '495.54': for all of the clerks and the justices '497.37': dining-room and he came up to me and he '499.86': looked at me and he had been talking to '502.83': justice rehnquist and he looked at me '504.33': and he said well there there certainly '506.16': are a lot of you here this year and my '509.49': first reaction is how does he know I'm '51.84': back no I'm the first lawyer in the '510.69': Jewish but he actually met women because '514.29': there were seven women and so I said I '516.66': realized that's what he meant and I said '520.02': well you know justice blackmun has three '521.52': female clerks this year and it was the '523.02': first time in justice I had three and '524.76': the chief justice to me said well I '526.77': guess he's going to need a lot of help '528.09': huh and I said no no we're gonna do all '532.95': the cooking and cleaning ourselves but '536.22': so my experience what the chief was '539.75': somewhat odd justice justice Brennan was '545.43': the senior associate justice at the time '547.68': and he was extremely gregarious and '550.59': outgoing so he would you know how I how '555.6': I he would say and he had that kind of '557.37': New Jersey accent the other thing he '559.02': taught me I think this is one of the '560.58': things I've never forgotten this you '562.2': taught me how if you have to shake a lot '564.12': of people's hands to shake hands with '565.65': them which is you extend your hand and '567.36': then you grab their elbow because then '569.61': if they squeeze your hand too hard you '571.2': can squeeze their elbow and they'll '573.36': release their grip and he told me he '574.98': learned that in politics he was very '579.45': gregarious he was he made an effort I '584.4': think and I think it was a strategic '586.29': effort in addition to just his natural '587.97': outgoing personality to get to know a '590.22': lot of the clerks in the building '591.54': because I think he felt that that helped '593.36': him to enlist them kind of on his side '597.27': in a way justice White was a leader '6.45': advanced here every but it was exciting '600.78': frankfurter type person '604.46': yeah I think in a way I think in a way '608.02': justice frankfurter I'm sorry justice '611.089': white was the second most senior '614.029': associate justice he had given up '617.3': playing basketball with the clerk's by '618.98': the time I was there apparently a couple '620.54': of years before a clerk who had been '622.19': just frustrated by the justices somewhat '624.86': over rough play had just cold-cocked him '626.57': during a game but he's still putted with '629.149': his clerks for money after every '63.03': family I mean my grandmother's brother '630.529': afternoon and it was interesting my year '635.57': at the courts the division among the '639.83': justices the thing that most seemed to '643.399': divide them was there were a couple of '645.86': abortion cases and Lawrence against '648.92': Texas which was a case about the Georgia '65.07': in law was a lawyer but I didn't spend '652.43': sodomy I'm sorry not Lawrence against '654.2': Texas Bowers against Hardwick the case '655.94': about the Georgia sodomy statute which '657.77': was ultimately overruled by the Supreme '659.24': Court later in Lawrence against Texas '66.689': much time with him I actually decided to '661.19': and so there was a there was a little '663.29': bit of tension between justice Blackmun '665.18': and justice white because they were on '667.279': opposite sides of this two cases the '670.97': next justice down was justice Marshall '673.87': and by the time I got to the Supreme '676.82': Court he was I think he was he was quite '68.97': become a lawyer because when I was a '680.54': old I mean there were five of the '682.339': justices were over 75 the year I was '684.38': there he was quite old he wasn't in the '686.54': best of health and so he moved very '689.779': slowly and I think he was kind of angry '692.6': and alienated by then quite a bit from '694.79': the court but occasionally if he stopped '697.94': by his chambers in the afternoon he '699.68': would be in a storytelling mood and he '701.27': would just he was a marvellous '702.83': storyteller so you tell stories about '704.39': his time in practice I think you know I '707.3': think he was one of the obviously one of '71.64': junior in high school over that summer I '710.72': the most formative lawyers of the 20th '712.73': century but I think he's one of those '715.1': people if you were writing his biography '716.6': most of the good stuff happened before '718.76': he got to the Supreme Court as opposed '720.74': to some of the justices for whom the '722.75': Supreme Court really was the pinnacle of '724.85': their achievement '726.65': then there was just a splatter then came '733.85': justice Powell justice Powell had been '737.21': sick the year before and had been out '738.86': for quite some time and is still a '74.43': read simple justice which is a book by '741.35': little frail when I got there but you '743.69': know and kind of extraordinarily '745.48': gentlemanly one of the clerk's my year '748.78': had a serious had a serious medical '752.71': issue and justice justice Powell sent '756.92': flowers to the clerk afterwards you know '759.89': just the charming man um he switched his '76.38': Richard Kluger about the litigation that '765.05': vote in one of the biggest cases my year '766.85': Bowers against Hardwick and I think '769.01': justice Blackmun was convinced the chief '772.31': had lobbied him very hard on that case '774.88': he was the swing vote when I was there '777.35': and so a lot of issues so there was a '78.689': led up to Brown against Board of '780.11': lot of concentration on him after him '783.41': came justice Stevens '786.74': oh no justice rehnquist came and then '789.08': just as soon as it justice rehnquist '790.91': you know when he was an Associate '792.44': Justice I think was a little bit looser '795.83': than he was when he was chief justice '798.28': although the interesting thing for me is '8.28': today you had probably the largest crowd '80.13': Education and I decided I wanted to be a '800.63': when I went back to visit justice '802.43': blackmun after justice rehnquist had '805.7': taken over and became chief justice '807.02': rehnquist everybody loved him as chief '809.09': justice he's thought to be extremely '811.19': fair and balanced and straightforward in '813.74': a way that I think the liberal justices '815.48': had not felt about just as Chief Justice '818.54': burger but when I was there he was still '821.27': a relatively junior justice he was quite '823.37': often in dissent much more so than when '827.39': he became chief justice but very '829.79': friendly very casual his clerks were out '83.759': civil rights lawyer and work for the '832.73': of the building by 6 p.m. '835.27': midnight then after him came justice '838.0': Stevens who was exactly the same you '84.84': n-double-a-cp Legal Defense Fund so that '841.39': know interestingly quirky and always in '846.04': a bowtie he only had two clerks the '848.53': other justices all had four and there's '852.01': very much kind of his own his own person '854.92': and then came justice O'Connor who was '857.02': very junior obviously when I was there '858.61': she was in her I guess her fourth or '859.84': fifth term on the court and you know '864.18': extremely personable she ran a exercise '868.14': class for all the female clerks at 8:00 '87.96': book inspired me to become a lawyer 'no '871.45': a.m. and we were invited to go to it but '873.28': unfortunately justice Blackmun had '874.96': breakfast with all of his clerks at 8:00 '876.67': a.m. so I think we'd managed to get to '878.56': the exercise class two or three days '880.12': when he was out of town but other than '881.68': that we didn't go justice blackmun wrote '889.9': to me one of the more interesting '892.29': decisions and oh honey school yeah do '897.31': you guys ever have any reason to talk '898.81': about that well yes so I think it would '902.65': have been justice Blackmun's it might '907.48': have been his 80th birthday but it was '909.01': one of his big birthdays we're having a '91.32': snow there's a one discussion in that '910.57': clerks reunion and as you know in flood '912.97': against Kuhn which is the best buy in '914.68': entrust case there's this kind of '917.89': passage at the beginning of it that's a '919.84': list of famous baseball players and it '922.0': goes on and on and apparently if he '923.5': started out with about ten of them then '925.27': various people around the building would '926.53': suggest people and then somebody said '927.94': well but if you're going to include you '929.74': know if you're going to include tinker's '931.63': you have to include Evers own occlude '934.0': Evers you have to include chances so '935.2': they just that list kind of expanded and '938.41': expanded and there was a story in the '94.259': book about justice jackson and his then '940.66': Brethren that right after the opinion '944.89': came down somebody said to him how could '947.44': you not include Jimmie Foxx and he said '949.72': Jimmie Foxx was '952.24': and the president no he's not and the '954.77': Justice went back and looked at the list '956.36': and sure enough Jimmie Foxx is not on '957.71': the list and the line in the brethren is '960.77': something like and justice Biden said '962.09': I'll never forgive myself so for his for '965.33': his um for his 80th birthday I think it '968.66': was his 80th we decided we were going to '970.82': get him one of Jimmy Fox's bags and we '973.85': looked into it and we could not find one '975.83': but it turns out that Hilary Jim Bradley '978.05': I think that's what the Louisville '979.22': Slugger company's name is they keep the '98.189': law clerk William Rehnquist and the '981.35': measurements of every player on file for '984.23': their backs and so we went to them and '986.15': we had them replicate one of Jimmy Fox's '990.41': bats and we had it mounted on a plaque '992.57': and on the bottom it just said I will '994.88': never forgive myself '996.32': hav and we gave it to him the clerk saw '999.32': gave it to him for his his his birthday

/data/video_data.parquet/447/447259/7QD30-4wqZw/360p_3750.mp4

Pam Karlan (2012) interview

On Aug. 22, 2012, the Robert H. Jackson Center hosted Prof. Pam Karlan. She was the annual Robert H. Jackson lecturer at Chautauqua Institution. The interview was conducted by Greg Peterson and covered her career, reflections on her mentor Justice Harry Blackmun and legacy of Robert H. Jackson. For further information, see www.roberthjackson.org.

540

'0.299': thank you for coming by the way this is '10.889': we've ever had for a Robert Jackson '1003.58': I saw it actually posted in his chambers '1007.9': the day he died after his funeral we all '101.39': famous or now infamous memorandum from '1010.36': went back to the chambers to hang out '1011.74': and there was the bat which I think was '1014.05': several people asked for it but I think '1016.24': it was given to the Library of Congress '1017.62': and the other thing about baseball that '1019.45': I is he had been a friend of the '1021.49': Griffiths who owned the then the '1024.459': Minneapolis Millers later the twins and '1027.97': so we would talk about baseball a lot it '1030.16': at breakfast and one day in the '1036.31': afternoon he I was in the upstairs '1038.8': chambers and I got a phone call used to '104.579': justice to justice Jackson from justice '1040.12': come down the Justice has somebody he '1042.52': wants you to meet and this group called '1044.35': the email verbum society was having its '1046.51': reunion in Washington I guess there's a '1048.13': Cubs thing and so there were these three '1053.5': guys and like bad fitting sports coats '1055.36': in his office and he introduced them to '1058.0': me and two of them I don't remember the '1059.14': name is because I'm not a Cubs fan at '1061.24': all but the last one was Andy Pafko who '1063.52': had been a Dodger as well '1065.96': at a nice conversation when afternoon '1068.299': with Andy Pafko '107.909': Rehnquist as you went through that '1070.789': and the last baseball thing I'll tell '1072.289': you is when justice blackmun retired '1074.539': from the Supreme Court I was asked to do '1076.639': one of the tributes for him in the '1078.379': Harvard Law Review and one of the things '1082.549': I talked about in the in the tribute was '1089.33': this article that been written called '1091.519': your law baseball quiz I think I told '1093.2': you about this last night where they '1094.34': compare different justices to different '1097.96': famous baseball players and I said that '110.13': clipper book in you and you've read '1100.85': you know so I tell the story of you know '1102.47': Jackie Jenson is like Byron white '1104.509': because they were both better at '1105.499': football and then I say you know and '1108.59': they compared the guy to this compared '111.93': about the activities of Thurgood '1110.769': Felix Frankfurter do among other things '1112.909': Wayne Terwilliger and I and I and then '1115.46': the art of I just set up foot and I said '1116.99': who is Wayne Terwilliger and so and then '1121.279': ultimately I said that if I had to pick '1122.99': somebody for justice blackmun to be like '1124.94': I had thought originally about Bobby '1126.529': Brown because justice like they wanted '1128.6': to be a doctor just like Bobby Brown '113.909': Marshall and William Coleman and the '1130.129': became a doctor and that I thought of '1132.32': you know a couple of other people like '1134.299': that you know Charlie Gehringer because '1136.549': it was a little tiny you know little '1141.32': tiny second baseman and you know a great '1143.529': fielder but not not a big batter and '1146.72': ultimately I came out with Dave Winfield '1148.58': which people might not have guessed '1149.779': because both of them came from st. Paul '1151.759': and made something of themselves both of '1153.86': them played the game long after many of '1155.809': their contemporaries had retired and '1157.279': both of them owed their start to a '1159.44': convicted but later pardoned Watergate '1161.629': felon to a later I'm sorry to a later '1164.809': pardoned Watergate felon because '1168.1': Blackman got his seat on the Supreme '1169.82': Court from Nixon and '117.21': whole cadre of people who were working '1172.94': George Steinbrenner's the person who '1174.68': gave Dave Winfield his biggest contract '1177.25': and so when I know sir yes so I read '1179.72': this and I wouldn't you know and the '1181.34': next time I visited the Justice that '1182.75': Justice said oh I really liked your your '1185.54': tribute a lot but come with me and he '1187.4': led me down the hall into a storeroom he '119.79': on the case did that inspire you to the '1190.67': was bending down at the Thurgood '1191.81': Marshall Center and he pulled out a copy '1193.82': of the baseball encyclopedia and he said '1197.09': this is Wayne Terwilliger and took me to '12.63': lecture and certainly the largest to '1200.45': the page twig I'd never heard of him and '1204.98': I'm a baseball fan and I'd never heard '1206.92': okay yeah I think until a few years ago '1209.33': still in baseball as a coach didn't even '1212.99': talk about Roe versus Wade ooh yes '1214.58': yeah um so the first time you talked '1216.95': about Roe vs. Wade is when I went to '1218.51': interview with him he had a justice '1221.48': blackmun would have been a tax lawyer '1223.1': before he was then counsel at the Mayo '1224.99': Clinic and he had exactly the habits you '1227.63': would expect from somebody who'd been a '1228.86': very good tax it's like incredibly '123.99': extent that you could find that that's a '1230.48': meticulous and precise and so when he '1232.34': interviewed people he had this long list '1234.32': of questions written out and he asked '1236.63': you the questions they wrote down the '1237.74': answers in pencil and towards the end of '1240.47': the interview he said now I want to ask '1242.54': you a question and I want you to think '1244.25': about this very carefully '1249.509': now I've written an opinion that's a '1252.239': little bit controversial and some people '1254.759': find that the kind of opinion that they '1257.549': have trouble with and you need to think '126.03': lineage that you could have '1260.549': about whether you would be comfortable '1261.809': working for me '1263.009': given the opinion and I'm sort of '1264.749': racking my brain to think like what '1266.249': opinion is he talking about '1268.799': and he said you may have heard of it and '127.74': yeah well I you know I decided I wanted '1271.049': now I'm thinking okay what is he gonna '1272.489': say '1272.909': he said it's called Roe against Wade and '1275.19': you know I'm a little bit of a kind of '1277.799': smartass sometimes and all I could think '1279.539': is just don't say oh my god you're that '1281.399': Harry Blackmun you're kidding but he '1284.519': actually had had a clerk apparently '1286.409': several years before who had in the '1288.119': middle of the year had a religious '1290.489': revelation that Roe was wrong and so '1295.139': that was the first time that I had a '1296.58': conversation then we had two abortion '1299.1': cases my year at the Supreme Court and '130.24': to work for the n-double-a-cp Legal '1300.96': it's actually the kind of high watermark '1303.359': of abortion rights at the Supreme Court '1305.07': was one of those cases the kids called '1306.45': Thornburg against American College of '1308.039': Obstetricians and Gynaecologists which '131.89': Defense Fund which is the organization '1310.649': the Justice wrote and so we had a fair '1313.859': number of conversations about abortion '1316.259': and he was convinced that you know that '1318.659': was also the first time that there was '1319.98': five to four who done a poll the kind of '1322.85': central premise of row because the Chief '1325.289': Justice which side so he talked about a '1327.419': lot then and then as you probably know '133.57': that bill Coleman and Charlie black and '1330.389': he used to teach at the Aspen Institute '1332.159': in the summer a justice and society '1335.039': class and he spent a day of that talking '1337.889': about the decision process leading up to '1339.929': Roe and I was there '1342.74': what do you say well he thought I mean '1345.87': it's interesting I think although he '1348.12': wouldn't I think he wouldn't put it '1350.309': quite this way his thoughts about ro '1352.02': evolved somewhat over time this when he '1355.29': started on the case his major you know '1358.95': the major focus for him was the practice '136.87': Lou and Thurgood Marshall and '1362.34': of medicine because he had come out of '1363.99': being counsel at the Mayo Clinic and he '1365.91': took very seriously they did it this was '1367.83': a medical procedure and therefore it was '1370.08': up to women in consultation with their '1372.78': doctors to make this decision in the way '1375.179': that would be true of all other medical '1376.919': procedures I think over time he came to '1379.049': see ro as equally about women's autonomy '138.64': Jack Greenberg were all part of and in '1383.76': that it wasn't mostly about medical '1386.07': autonomy it was about women's autonomy '1388.62': by the time I got there I think he was '1390.299': thinking about it and much those two '1392.79': things to have more much more in '1394.41': equipoise in being important to him but '1397.41': he just thought it was not the kind of '1398.91': decision that should be made '14.25': stay around well excellent yeah your '1400.4': categorically by the state as opposed to '1402.75': by individuals given the circumstances '1405.33': they found themselves in a gym ropes '1408.5': publicly switched no I think I think she '141.4': fact that's what I did do when I was in '1413.07': had said by then that she regretted '1414.84': having had the abortion but it wasn't '1416.85': until maybe about five years ago there '1419.22': so that she filed a sort of coram nobis '1420.75': training in Roe overturned if you had '1427.53': this pause and Sarah Gregg I've been in '143.11': law school I worked there for each of '1430.59': violence constitutional law business for '1432.44': since eighties and you had to pick kind '1436.5': of the five seminal cases to teach a '1439.98': master's class '144.73': the summers I was in law school '1444.52': five cases since the 1980s startup '1448.0': America okay '1449.26': doing a little baseline yeah was your '1451.35': people so if I had to pick the cases '1455.71': since I started since I started well '146.2': and then I was a staff lawyer there for '1462.4': you'd have to teach District of Columbia '1467.71': against Heller the Second Amendment case '1470.08': in part because it's just it's like a '1472.42': kind of kaleidoscope of all the '1474.28': different methods of constitutional '1475.96': interpretation it's got a little bit of '1477.46': originalism a little bit of textualism '1479.32': some pragmatic consequentialism a little '148.03': several years before I went into '1482.41': bit of the structure a constitutional '1484.179': structural reasoning and so although I '1486.49': know I'm not sure that the opinion has '1488.2': big legs that is I'm not sure that '149.44': teaching and I still continued to work '1490.03': there's going to be a lot of laws struck '1491.559': down that would have otherwise been '1492.73': upheld or like it's it's a it's a real '1496.45': window into contemporary constitutional '1499.12': law so I definitely teach that I think I '1503.53': would teach Lawrence against Texas '1506.62': because for substantive due process '1508.929': cases it's one of the most interesting '151.36': with them on cases so I'd like to think '1512.2': ones and you can see echoes of all of '1516.28': the sort of different prior cases in it '1519.87': I would definitely teach the Affordable '1525.49': Care Act case because it reviews huge '1529.48': amounts of constitutional law up till '1531.309': then and it sets down some markers for '1534.67': the future '1539.2': I'd have to teach one of the race cases '154.45': of myself as being part of the extended '1542.27': on the question of which race case to '1544.34': teach you know on the one hand Gruder is '1548.09': very important but I think maybe parents '1550.309': involved against Seattle School District '1552.86': number one is more significant because '1555.64': there's more of a discussion of what the '1557.809': meaning of brown is for modern times and '156.94': Legal Defense Fund family did you ever '1562.159': it's more of a contemporary court and '1567.01': then I mean there are a lot of different '1570.409': candidates because it depends on what '1572.48': you're trying to do in the master class '1573.799': that is if you're trying to say which '1575.09': cases have had the most impact on '1577.99': everyday people's lives that's going to '1580.279': be a different question than if you're '1581.75': sort of saying which cases give you the '1583.669': greatest insight into kind of how the '1587.39': justices think about things '159.7': catch up with any of those oh oh yes '1592.56': today if the presentation you gave '1595.58': wonderful wonderful conversation with '1603.56': Jackson and currency current issues '1609.48': which is of course the Jackson mission '1613.05': here is to create the relevancy of '1614.73': justice Jackson today and you did a '1617.82': phenomenal job of doing just that '1620.81': well they didn't mention one of the ones '1623.19': where he's been most influential because '1624.54': it was a lay audience which is the steel '1627.57': seizure drill the kind of three-part '1630.42': framework for determining the '1632.7': relationship between the executive power '1634.59': and legislative power and '1637.55': constitutionality but I thought to try '1640.47': and do that with a lay audience would be '1642.27': almost impossible two years ago John '1645.24': created an event at Albany Law School '1647.73': and Phil Neil said if there's anything '165.64': absolutely so I knew Jack greenberg '1655.08': one thing it probably needs to be done '1656.49': in law school so we got to teach Jackson '1659.13': and specifically his ability to write '1661.5': this style and also taking it to one '1664.35': step further which is what you did today '1666.74': is it realistic well I mean I could see '167.92': quite well I knew bill Coleman who was '1672.21': teaching a seminar it would be a great '1674.61': seminar to teach one justice through a '1678.23': range of cases I mean I've often so I '1682.23': have a friend who's also a law professor '1683.88': who once suggested you should teach a '1685.23': course called some like 342 us and the '1688.32': case book for the course would simply be '1689.85': that volume of us reports because I find '1692.76': that you can often see really '1694.98': interesting relationships between cases '1697.35': that don't look like they're about the '1699.27': same thing but that are decided around '170.17': chairman of the board of the Legal '1702.18': the same time so I think it'd be '1703.65': wonderful to have a course that focused '1705.72': on a single justice I mean you'd want it '1707.94': obviously to be an advanced con law '1709.74': class or an advanced law class more '171.52': Defense Fund by the time I was a lawyer '1712.2': general '1712.68': so that it might also involve statutory '1714.87': interpretation as well as constitutional '1716.55': interpretation but I think the the '1720.21': chance to read the unaccepted decisions '1723.09': of in particular justice you actually '1724.86': get a sense of what a an opinion looks '1726.75': like as opposed to what's in the case '1728.64': book which is a little bit of fact and '173.98': there quite well I met Thurgood Marshall '1730.62': then boom into the money language yeah '1733.95': it'd be great thing to do you can't '1738.39': there's so much so far because you look '1742.38': in the crystal ball for the next five '1743.7': years the pen Carlin is there books you '1747.18': want to write are their positions you'd '1749.52': like to get is there the ambitions of '1753.27': panco oh I well one of my ambitions is '1756.45': to be a better teacher you know I love '1759.9': teaching I love with the clinical '176.71': when I was clerking at the Supreme Court '1761.88': teaching and the regular teaching a '1763.47': little bit of it is also you know after '1766.29': you've done any particular thing for a '1768.09': while you're always looking for a little '1769.29': something new to do so for a while I was '1773.07': kind of some training almost entirely on '1774.39': election law stuff and now for the last '1776.64': six or seven years my primary focus has '1779.13': been this clinic about litigates cases '1780.9': at the Supreme Court so I was thinking '1782.85': like maybe it's around time to figure '1785.25': out what the next thing is I don't have '1787.62': you know ambitions to change my life '1789.9': permanently inside in some way '179.59': I knew Constance Baker motley from when '1792.85': I'd like to spend some time working at '1795.22': the Department of Justice I think you '1797.14': know the right job came along at the '1798.61': right time it's always one of these '18.9': first time to Chautauqua what's your '1800.2': questions of timing and job and like I '1802.03': mean I was offered the job that I would '1804.1': now like to have I was offered in the '1806.89': Clinton administration but it was the '1808.63': wrong time and I was changing schools at '1811.84': that point and I'm single you know I '1815.11': didn't want to take two years it's kind '1817.87': of a two-year detour but as you get '182.32': I was working at the district court in '1820.78': older it seems less of a detour and more '1822.52': of an opportunity just to serve and then '1824.62': go back to being just a country law '1828.46': professor '183.91': New York she was the chief judge when I '1831.01': okay so President Obama gets reelected '1835.83': Ruth Bader Ginsburg resides where the '1840.929': Kennedys well to figure out who the top '1846.37': three candidates are you would need to '1847.78': know what year she resigns in and what '1849.73': the Senate looks like because if the '185.29': was clerking on that Court and Bob '1852.429': Democrats have control of the Senate '1854.08': you'll see a different nominee than if '1856.48': the Republicans have control of the '1858.22': Senate some of it depends on you know '1864.07': people people can kind of shoot out of '1866.11': nowhere in various ways you know Elena '1870.88': Kagan was the first justice in probably '1874.95': what twenty years to be since Justice '1879.52': Rehnquist was the and justice Powell was '188.11': Carter I knew just from you know hanging '1881.5': the first justice to go on the Supreme '1883.0': Court not coming out of an appellate '1885.58': court I mean justice O'Connor was a '1887.41': state court and to be really accurate '1890.83': justice Souter was mostly a state court '1892.809': judge he had only been on the first '1896.23': circuit for less than a year but that's '1898.12': a different kind of pick and so be '1900.22': interesting to see whether the president '1901.72': decides to think about somebody's held '1904.059': elective office I mean that was one of '1905.65': the points I was making in my lecture '1907.99': today '1908.95': institution is that we don't have any '1912.59': balance Precourt with real nitty gritty '1916.6': running for office experience so I could '1919.789': see something like Jennifer Granholm or '192.1': around with civil rights lawyers so I '1923.169': lisa madigan who's Attorney General of '1926.12': Illinois or camel Harris is Attorney '1929.809': General of California you know the '193.99': think of all of the people who were '1934.22': president hasn't put a lot of women on '1937.64': the federal courts of appeals yet so if '1940.58': that's where you're looking you know '1942.52': it's not clear that there's a deep bench '1945.529': of Democrats there if it's a Republican '1949.399': kind if it's a Republican Senate he's '1951.23': going to have to move considerably '1953.36': towards the middle it's pretty hard to '1956.57': know Mitt Romney Jordan is nice up '196.24': still alive who had argued in brown by '1964.97': that's that's I was a stock hold of '1969.289': American Motors Corporation just once '1970.97': you know that South Fargo and Detroit '1973.88': Tigers friends put that on respected '1976.85': Mitt Romney was fully Republican and '1979.58': he's got the choice there two or three '1982.57': candidates that jump out to use logical '1985.61': yeah so I I would think for him the kind '1989.27': of obvious choices would be Brett '199.48': the time I was an adult I've met I get I '1991.97': Kavanaugh who's on the DC circuit very '1994.159': young very conservative Jeff Sutton from '1996.62': the sixth circuit young and conservative '1999.169': ents smart although Jeff probably didn't '2.04': Gregor you're us your startup has been '20.34': impressions of all this well I've been '2001.27': do himself a big favor when he upheld '2004.75': the Affordable Care Act and then I would '2009.34': think Paul Clemente who's the Solicitor '201.58': managed to meet them all I mean all of '2011.26': General would be '2013.419': in the Bush administration be a kind of '2015.399': obvious candidate those straight me as '2018.999': the people most likely in a Romney '2021.969': administration I'm smiling because dolly '2024.309': lives would answered the same question '2026.979': in the same way well '203.17': the people argued on the right side yeah '2030.659': paranoid paranoid liberal she had a '2033.009': couple of a couple of mail names to the '2035.229': democratic posted oh yeah I mean III I '2037.779': convinced I mean '2039.249': Judge garland would be you know if it's '204.76': did you find that with that did you find '2041.559': in the next year or two '2042.879': who's on the DC Circuit would be a kind '2045.669': of obvious candidate you know now that '2050.649': Paul Watford has gotten onto the ninth '2053.649': circuit '2054.429': he might be an extremely attractive '2056.71': candidate most important question she's '2063.579': baseball became its antitrust exemption '2066.149': well you know I'm a big bill James fan '2068.679': and Bill James has a discussion of this '2070.839': where he says that if you got rid of the '2072.519': antitrust exemption what you might start '2074.74': to see is a kind of proliferation of a '2077.829': third or fourth majorly don't was coming '2081.069': out of minor league teams I'm not sure '2086.589': what function the antitrust exemption '2089.609': really performs today given that there's '2092.139': now an agreement between the Players '2094.48': Association and the teams right you know '2098.47': and and a huge percentage ever since '210.61': that you went to law school and were '2101.349': free agency a huge percentage of the '2104.769': revenue has moved over to the players '2106.48': I'm not sure that the existing players '2108.43': would favor getting rid of me and I '2109.99': trust exemption such an anachronism yeah '2113.98': yeah but hard to see that it's actually '2116.92': having much effect on on the game itself '2119.4': and the real question is how you '2121.93': maintain competitive balance if you if '2124.569': you want to maintain the sport the real '2126.039': question is how to maintain competitive '2127.93': balance and without the antitrust '2129.22': exemption '213.37': there a lot of your classmates who found '2130.33': it might be harder easier Supreme Court '2133.72': Historical Society is celebrating the '2135.73': 40th anniversary of that decision and '2137.7': they have working with two podium '2144.82': individuals and a judge to sort of '2147.28': reenact the case and that simply take it '2149.5': through everything for me there I think '2152.35': folks do it all as far as any guidance '2154.15': no no I know flood against tuna was way '2157.21': before my time '2157.96': yeah but thank you I know I know but '216.67': that social part of the practice of law '2161.5': every time I say something critical '2163.75': about the Chief Justice and being an '2165.28': umpire diminish my chances of being '2168.43': invited to the flood against Hugh '2170.11': celebration well tell me about that well '2177.79': you wrote that did you get feedback did '2179.41': you like no not well the Chief Justice '2182.2': doesn't blow back there did somebody I '2184.39': mean if there's no no I mean I'd if '2188.02': there I was at an event where I talked '219.81': important well I think you know I have a '2190.66': about this and this may be kind of music '2196.03': so has an event where I talked about '2197.26': this a little bit of know you know but '2199.0': Chief Justice and the umpire analogy '22.41': hearing about Chautauqua for years when '2201.43': like and efforts Justice Thomas was had '2204.22': been there and he came up to me and said '2206.5': hey give you a little bicep a nice oh '2208.42': yeah sure mr. justice he said don't hold '2210.22': back '2210.49': tell us what you really think have you '2212.56': got a stop being that you've got to stop '2214.09': being so reticent so no you know the '2218.98': Chief Justice isn't just as a big boy '2220.96': yeah '2223.22': by the way Jen talked about Thursday '2226.01': I've been in social situations where '2227.48': he's been there in by far and away when '2229.16': all the justices are there and it '223.36': lot of friends from Moscow who have done '2230.78': Supreme Court Oracle society man well '2232.46': he's very outgoing you can get access '2234.619': immediate access to everybody but him '2236.27': because time it's only because you've '2238.25': got 40 50 people hanging on I mean it's '2240.74': just doctors you can't get them no he's '2243.14': got more social skills in one-on-one '2245.54': than the average surgeries are just '2247.13': essentially he slapped more people on '2249.829': the back down and all the reason of the '225.13': public interest practice or either for '2254.42': current justices and you've written '2257.69': about them what's what's your sense of '2264.73': Roberts decision you know how do you '2268.19': read that in the healthcare act I don't '227.68': private groups like the Legal Defense '2272.39': wanna say Obamacare because you don't '2273.5': want me to say about that well wrong '2278.06': news head I mean I don't want to crawl '2280.91': into his head I I was not surprised at '2284.27': all by most of what he wrote that is I '2286.28': was not surprised that he upheld it on '2287.839': taxing power grounds and I was not '229.45': Fund or for the government so yeah I '2291.89': surprised that he thought there was a '2294.68': spending Clause problem with Medicaid '2296.96': because those seem to me to be pretty '2299.93': predictable what did surprise me is how '2302.3': much he went out of his way to decide '2305.21': the Commerce Clause issue when it wasn't '2306.98': necessary to the bottom line because as '2308.9': you know he spent a lot of time talking '2310.849': about how we should did not decide the '2313.52': things we don't need to decide and then '2315.829': in this case he went out of his way to '2317.329': do it and he's done that before that is '2320.27': his opinion for the court in the new '2323.51': Mudd no case which is a case about '2325.9': constitutionality of section 5 of the '2327.61': Voting Rights Act the court ultimately '2329.08': decided it on very narrow statutory '233.47': think a fair number of the people I knew '2331.54': grounds but along the way he said a lot '2334.03': of nasty things about the Voting Rights '2335.5': Act um you know he was a clerk for '2341.5': Justice Rehnquist and observed Justice '2343.99': Rehnquist's Supreme Court career he is a '2346.72': huge fan of Chief Justice John Marshall '2349.72': and has thought a lot about John '235.81': in law school were very committed to '2351.34': Marshalls career and both of those men '2353.83': both Marshall and Rehnquist were '2357.19': extremely strategic and kept their eye '2360.91': on the long view and that's true for the '2364.93': Chief Justice as well '2365.92': the man is 57 years old he does not need '2369.67': to take all the cards off the table in '237.25': doing civil rights work and have done it '2371.62': one hand and I think his decision his '2376.45': opinion in the affordable care act case '2379.33': was an extremely strategic decision so '2384.01': that somebody and all sides could have '2386.32': think once they read it they read it '2389.25': fine glass they can get something out of '2392.05': that well he it's designed to make him '2394.99': appear statesman like right which is he '2399.55': sort of says look you there's this '24.029': I was growing up because my grandmother '240.04': in one form or another '2401.74': passage towards the beginning of his '2403.72': opinion where he says it's not our job '2405.73': to save the people from the consequences '2408.07': of their political decisions our job is '241.27': their careers constitutional law of all '2410.08': to apply the law well what is that '2412.42': supposed to mean '2413.35': and not our job to save the people from '2415.45': their consequences their political '2416.65': decisions in other words saying if you '2418.21': pass a stupid statute like this don't '2419.98': expect us to fix it so I think it was '2424.48': designed to make him appear '2428.01': non-political right he's he's turning '2432.19': his back on the Tea Party agenda '2434.289': case while also allowing him to say a '2437.739': bunch of nasty things about the kind of '2442.479': liberal welfare state and I think he '2446.819': gained a fair amount of capital from the '2449.38': decision there that will stand him in '245.74': that was was at the area which obviously '2451.329': good stead when he spends it on issues '2453.039': he cares more about I don't think the '2454.689': Commerce Clause is the biggest issue for '2457.059': the chief justice that he cares about in '2458.829': constitutional law but certainly don't '2461.529': think the taxing powers Robert Jackson '2465.279': Center you're here today the thrilled '2467.199': you are here today and we are here to '2469.749': advance the legacy of Justice Robert '2472.029': Jackson I had Michael Berenbaum whom you '2474.429': met sitting at seat just yesterday '2476.559': asking him you know if he had some '2478.599': advice for us for only 11 years old or '248.85': established a reputation well the kind '2481.119': work-in-progress as to areas of which to '2484.209': find ourselves and if you had to give us '2487.509': some guidance panel well if you think '2490.9': about justice Jackson right what are the '2492.999': kind of things he's most known for the '2496.539': Nuremberg trials which obviously have '2499.239': continued bearing on the world today '25.56': and her first cousin came every summer '2502.839': because of '2505.44': the rise of international war crimes '2508.98': tribunals and Human Rights Tribunal '2511.17': sunlight I mean obviously that's one '2513.78': area where you know he serves as a kind '2516.869': of focal point for the United States on '2518.819': that and then the other thing I think is '252.85': of irony about that is when I got to law '2523.05': legal writing to go back to the point '2526.2': you were making about Phil Neal earlier '2527.819': that justice Jackson was such a clear '2531.0': writer and thinker I think it'd just be '2534.42': really useful to think about how do you '2538.55': perpetuate that legacy I mean you know '2542.46': you can read a Robert Jackson opinion '2544.319': today and it speaks to you whereas you '2547.5': know you read some of the opinions from '2548.97': the if you know from the Warren burger '255.31': school my first semester in law school I '2554.42': Rehnquist and Roberts courts and they're '2557.88': just impenetrable '2561.35': or they're impenetrable sort of masses '2565.49': of soupy mass with a couple of quotable '2568.25': lines thrown and the thing that's '257.26': was assigned to constitutional law with '2570.32': interesting you know and made it a '2572.06': little hard when I was preparing my talk '2573.92': for today for the Jackson centers '2575.18': sometimes the best Jackson quotations '2577.55': are two or three paragraphs long because '2581.09': he's setting up an argument and then '2583.66': explaining the argument as he goes '2585.71': through it '2586.22': I mean he's not he isn't even though '2587.96': he's got some of the greatest one-liners '2589.64': in Supreme Court history that's not '259.72': Robert Bork so I'm not sure that what I '2591.47': actually what makes him the greatest '2593.0': writer in some ways and so getting '2595.49': people to focus more on legal writing '2597.94': would you do that boy you know that's an '2601.73': interesting question I mean I think it'd '2606.77': be great to have to have you know have '2610.49': something that gives people a sense of '2612.11': how good his writing was you know some '2617.39': of it depends on which audiences you're '2618.86': aiming at I mean I think having a legal '2621.71': writing thing where you bring in judges '2623.48': and talk to them about legal write it I '2625.61': mean especially like state Supreme Court '2627.74': justice is often don't get much training '263.65': learned in first-year constitutional law '2630.5': and how to write an opinion or how to '2631.88': think about it '2637.569': what hurry black would mean to pimp oh '2641.259': he was he was everything he was just '2644.539': such a great boss and he and he was so '2648.47': meticulous I mean one of the things that '2650.269': he really taught me was attention to '2652.549': detail because he was very much a detail '2654.799': man and just an extremely brave man I '2658.67': mean the year before I clerked for the '266.49': stuck I I knew I disagreed with him and '2660.65': summer that I clerk from your that that '2663.529': previous spring you know when he came '2665.45': back to start eating breakfast with us '2667.94': we had a US Marshal and a Supreme Court '2669.71': police officer with us every morning at '2672.38': breakfast and the reason for that is '2673.64': that he had been shot out the year '2675.769': before he got up to go to the kitchen '2678.74': and a bullet came through the window and '2680.66': landed in the chair it did sitting in '2682.97': mmm one of the things he then ended up '2685.039': with it was a huge kerfuffle with his '2687.829': insurance company because there was a '2689.329': pair of upholstered chairs and the FBI '2692.21': came and like cut out a huge chunk of '2694.609': the chair that the bullet had gone into '2696.289': and he wanted to have both the chairs '2697.97': recovered and the insurance company said '2699.74': well there's nothing wrong with the '270.85': I didn't really know why I disagreed '2700.7': other chair so they've been over the '2703.339': back and forth over the chairs but you '2706.339': know he he was very principled he stuck '2709.099': to his principles and he was '2712.869': unbelievably hard-working I mean however '2715.13': hard I work I never work as hard as he '2717.38': worked '2719.52': you're the eighth speaker in Robert H '272.92': with him because I think for me the '2721.95': ejection lectureship and you've raised '2724.65': the bar very very high today '2728.16': whoo so how lucky that you're doing this '2730.26': that Mambo thing and everybody can get '2732.6': under it more easily now well that's who '2735.69': would you recommend to Jen and I next '2738.6': year '2738.99': oh so thinking about like we've had '274.87': difficulty in the way he taught us he '2743.49': solicitor jabber solicit think about '2745.74': like who is it that I love to listen to '2748.53': when they talk about law that you '2752.04': haven't had because you've had Paul '2753.78': Clemente company yeah and you've had '2755.82': Dahlia who I love listening to you know '276.46': was very fast very quick very witty and '2765.6': Bill Marshall is a really interesting '2767.66': guy - I find him just really interesting '2772.62': to listen to '2780.41': in terms of in terms of '2783.82': you know one person who'd be interesting '2785.89': to have because he's now off the bench '2787.66': and he's talking a lot more frankly '2790.21': about a lot of stuff is Vaughn Walker '2791.5': who was a federal district judge in '2793.51': California he's a really interesting '2795.43': speaker and obviously decide a huge '2797.62': number of important cases including the '2799.36': California marriage case I would think '28.92': and so I was excited to get a chance to '280.9': you're a first-year law student and so '2802.12': he'd be super interesting '2808.41': just kind of thinking '2816.84': you know my colleague Michael McConnell '2818.61': is a super interesting speaker on '282.58': even if you know you disagree with him '2821.13': virtually everything '2826.18': one person you know because I think you '2830.23': know who might be really interesting is '2831.46': sherrilyn Ifill he's a professor at the '2833.499': University of Maryland who has is '2837.49': writing right now about judicial '2839.38': confirmation hmm processes and she's an '284.05': it's hard to formulate what your '2843.069': unbelievably great and dynamic speaker '2846.42': so she might be a good person '2851.02': I should show you the clip of Dalia '2852.76': talking about you I love doll yeah I '2856.0': love dolly she's so into she wrote she '2859.48': wrote a piece this past year that was my '286.06': disagreements are and I think I didn't '2861.369': favorite piece of all time about '2863.17': corporate personhood it was about this '2865.27': little nothing burg case called that I '2867.28': think was FCC against AT&T it was a case '2869.68': about an exemption under the Freedom of '2872.829': Information Act for things that would '2876.849': interfere with the personal privacy of '2879.46': an individual and AT&T said well we '288.61': teach constitutional law until I've been '2882.79': should be able to protect ourselves here '2884.47': and that Court ultimately helped that '2887.2': they shouldn't and that Chief Justice '2888.579': makes some jokes about AT&T and not '2891.19': taking anything personally in this '2892.54': opinion but she wrote a description of '2894.7': the oral argument the case that was '2895.93': written completely as if 18t were a '2898.21': person and it's just it's just marvelous '290.38': teaching for quite some time in part '2901.98': question that is often asked oh no you '2904.809': know me you should definitely also think '2906.25': about his Walter Dellinger who is a '2908.17': great speaker and it was not on the '2912.22': court during the Robert Jackson use but '2913.96': was a Hugo black Clarke in the 1960s '2919.42': question that gets off in a spiral a '292.6': because I didn't want to have my '2921.76': radio guy is if you've had a chance to '2924.97': have dinner '2927.19': '- John Gemini anybody in history you can' '2933.01': choose three guests who did related '2937.24': somebody you're fine '2938.47': just extremely fascinating - really well '2942.24': that's it you know that's such a hard '2944.44': question cuz okay you want to have '2948.7': dinner with us somebody who will '2949.57': actually talk to you about that stuff as '295.63': students experience constitutional line '2951.79': opposed to somebody who won't talk about '2955.69': right so you might be really interested '2957.82': in knowing what somebody thinks but if '2959.98': they're very guarded then the dinner '2961.99': would be kind of painful so no no I know '2964.69': but I'm a law professor so I would '2966.82': really love to have dinner with Franklin '2969.04': Roosevelt I would really love to have '297.61': the way I had experienced it as the '2971.95': dinner with Franklin Roosevelt's and '2975.58': although I think I would have to like be '2978.16': extremely careful and sit at the other '2980.5': end of the table I'd actually love to '2982.15': have dinner with Lyndon Johnson as just '2984.64': reading the last of the following the '2986.83': Latin most recent in the bottoms of the '2988.0': Kara biography I'm just fascinated by '299.56': professor having a very strong point of '2990.94': him I just you know I'd love to and the '2997.12': other person I would love to have dinner '2998.74': with because I just love to know more '3001.11': about what made her who she was is '3003.42': Fannie Lou Hamer hmm I mean you know '3007.32': where did you get the kind of courage to '301.27': view that kind of overwhelmed whatever '3011.49': stick with it like '3016.35': this is an aside I recently interviewed '3018.9': Andrew Young and he talked they gave him '3022.14': a flash cards all the people who civil '3024.63': rights movement it was I had 20 minute '3027.27': stop that was all I had '3028.35': and I gave it to him as a baseball cards '3030.21': yeah just tell me who's left throws even '3033.21': further like oh yeah this is great '304.24': values you came into law school with so '3045.78': you are terrific and unfortunately '3051.32': looking forward to it I'm looking '3053.64': forward to what's the line about you '3055.71': know you can summarize every Jewish '3057.15': holiday in nine words they tried to kill '3059.1': us they didn't let see Cindy just texted '306.43': those tried to be very careful that I '3065.04': she's going to the restaurant '3066.63': I know we have there was she's tagging '3068.04': on two verses you got the word out right '3069.6': so was one of the partner we're gonna '3077.07': turn fishermen six okay perfect '308.14': teach my conservative students how to be '31.859': come up and when I arrived I was just '311.44': the best constitutional law lawyers they '313.24': can be as well as teaching students '315.28': whose views on the issues coincide more '3164.359': you '317.86': with mine of course finding yourself '3185.92': you '3209.74': you '323.71': from the United States Supreme Court day '326.44': one when you walked in there and well '3275.81': you '333.25': this is gonna sound odd but I actually '337.15': felt more comfortable arguing in the US '34.02': struck by how incredibly gorgeous '340.84': Supreme Court then I felt arguing in '342.88': several of the courts of appeals where '344.95': I've argued in part because I clerked at '3455.96': you '346.75': the court and so the building was '348.82': familiar to me the personnel on the '350.62': court were familiar to me you don't have '352.63': the problem when you go to the Supreme '354.01': Court that you can handle on courts of '355.36': appeals which is you don't know who your '356.71': panel is until you get there so you've '359.53': thought about you've briefed the case '36.8': Chautauqua is a combination of just '361.419': for the people you're actually gonna '362.47': argue in front of the thing that's '364.21': amazing about the argument is how fast '366.37': it goes '367.6': mean a my first argument I only had 10 '3696.23': you '370.99': minutes because I was splitting time '372.4': with the Solicitor General and I feel '375.82': like I didn't take a breath the whole '377.29': time I was up there it just pushed by me '381.0': but there's something totally '383.17': exhilarating I sometimes say to my '385.72': students that arguing in front of the '387.79': Supreme Court is the most fun you can '389.26': have in 30 minutes in public wearing '39.45': physical gorgeousness and total charm '391.54': your clothes standing up being all by '393.37': yourself doing nothing but talking and I '396.37': I continue to feel that although I have '398.89': to say that the current court is so much '402.4': more conservative than both the court I '404.59': clerked on and the court I started '407.02': practicing in front of that's it's a '409.12': little less fun to go up there today '410.59': because it's a little harder to win the '412.27': cases that I tend to be arguing I '419.11': clicked for justice baikman in October '42.469': you know the houses and the people '421.72': term 1985 so it was the last year that '424.21': Chief Justice burger was chief justice '433.32': sure so I'll do them in order of '437.14': seniority because when justice Blackmun '439.69': used to come back from the conference '442.21': where it's just the nine justices in the '444.16': room and nobody else he would read us '446.29': his notes and he always read them in the '448.75': order the justices went which is the '45.629': walking around and everything was just '450.4': order of seniority so Chief Justice '452.92': burger he looked like a chief justice he '456.91': really did he by the time I got there '460.75': justice Blackmun and he although they '462.28': had been friends growing up and justice '464.32': Blackmun had actually been the best man '466.45': at chief justice burgers wedding by the '469.09': time I got there they really weren't '470.08': speaking to each other so I think my '471.97': views of the chief are colored somewhat '473.92': by how justice Blackmun felt about him '477.88': but the chief was very into ceremony he '48.239': it's just been delightful I hope to come '482.14': was fairly conservative not super '488.59': imaginative '490.68': my first encounter with him was there '493.11': was a party at the beginning of the term '495.54': for all of the clerks and the justices '497.37': dining-room and he came up to me and he '499.86': looked at me and he had been talking to '502.83': justice rehnquist and he looked at me '504.33': and he said well there there certainly '506.16': are a lot of you here this year and my '509.49': first reaction is how does he know I'm '51.84': back no I'm the first lawyer in the '510.69': Jewish but he actually met women because '514.29': there were seven women and so I said I '516.66': realized that's what he meant and I said '520.02': well you know justice blackmun has three '521.52': female clerks this year and it was the '523.02': first time in justice I had three and '524.76': the chief justice to me said well I '526.77': guess he's going to need a lot of help '528.09': huh and I said no no we're gonna do all '532.95': the cooking and cleaning ourselves but '536.22': so my experience what the chief was '539.75': somewhat odd justice justice Brennan was '545.43': the senior associate justice at the time '547.68': and he was extremely gregarious and '550.59': outgoing so he would you know how I how '555.6': I he would say and he had that kind of '557.37': New Jersey accent the other thing he '559.02': taught me I think this is one of the '560.58': things I've never forgotten this you '562.2': taught me how if you have to shake a lot '564.12': of people's hands to shake hands with '565.65': them which is you extend your hand and '567.36': then you grab their elbow because then '569.61': if they squeeze your hand too hard you '571.2': can squeeze their elbow and they'll '573.36': release their grip and he told me he '574.98': learned that in politics he was very '579.45': gregarious he was he made an effort I '584.4': think and I think it was a strategic '586.29': effort in addition to just his natural '587.97': outgoing personality to get to know a '590.22': lot of the clerks in the building '591.54': because I think he felt that that helped '593.36': him to enlist them kind of on his side '597.27': in a way justice White was a leader '6.45': advanced here every but it was exciting '600.78': frankfurter type person '604.46': yeah I think in a way I think in a way '608.02': justice frankfurter I'm sorry justice '611.089': white was the second most senior '614.029': associate justice he had given up '617.3': playing basketball with the clerk's by '618.98': the time I was there apparently a couple '620.54': of years before a clerk who had been '622.19': just frustrated by the justices somewhat '624.86': over rough play had just cold-cocked him '626.57': during a game but he's still putted with '629.149': his clerks for money after every '63.03': family I mean my grandmother's brother '630.529': afternoon and it was interesting my year '635.57': at the courts the division among the '639.83': justices the thing that most seemed to '643.399': divide them was there were a couple of '645.86': abortion cases and Lawrence against '648.92': Texas which was a case about the Georgia '65.07': in law was a lawyer but I didn't spend '652.43': sodomy I'm sorry not Lawrence against '654.2': Texas Bowers against Hardwick the case '655.94': about the Georgia sodomy statute which '657.77': was ultimately overruled by the Supreme '659.24': Court later in Lawrence against Texas '66.689': much time with him I actually decided to '661.19': and so there was a there was a little '663.29': bit of tension between justice Blackmun '665.18': and justice white because they were on '667.279': opposite sides of this two cases the '670.97': next justice down was justice Marshall '673.87': and by the time I got to the Supreme '676.82': Court he was I think he was he was quite '68.97': become a lawyer because when I was a '680.54': old I mean there were five of the '682.339': justices were over 75 the year I was '684.38': there he was quite old he wasn't in the '686.54': best of health and so he moved very '689.779': slowly and I think he was kind of angry '692.6': and alienated by then quite a bit from '694.79': the court but occasionally if he stopped '697.94': by his chambers in the afternoon he '699.68': would be in a storytelling mood and he '701.27': would just he was a marvellous '702.83': storyteller so you tell stories about '704.39': his time in practice I think you know I '707.3': think he was one of the obviously one of '71.64': junior in high school over that summer I '710.72': the most formative lawyers of the 20th '712.73': century but I think he's one of those '715.1': people if you were writing his biography '716.6': most of the good stuff happened before '718.76': he got to the Supreme Court as opposed '720.74': to some of the justices for whom the '722.75': Supreme Court really was the pinnacle of '724.85': their achievement '726.65': then there was just a splatter then came '733.85': justice Powell justice Powell had been '737.21': sick the year before and had been out '738.86': for quite some time and is still a '74.43': read simple justice which is a book by '741.35': little frail when I got there but you '743.69': know and kind of extraordinarily '745.48': gentlemanly one of the clerk's my year '748.78': had a serious had a serious medical '752.71': issue and justice justice Powell sent '756.92': flowers to the clerk afterwards you know '759.89': just the charming man um he switched his '76.38': Richard Kluger about the litigation that '765.05': vote in one of the biggest cases my year '766.85': Bowers against Hardwick and I think '769.01': justice Blackmun was convinced the chief '772.31': had lobbied him very hard on that case '774.88': he was the swing vote when I was there '777.35': and so a lot of issues so there was a '78.689': led up to Brown against Board of '780.11': lot of concentration on him after him '783.41': came justice Stevens '786.74': oh no justice rehnquist came and then '789.08': just as soon as it justice rehnquist '790.91': you know when he was an Associate '792.44': Justice I think was a little bit looser '795.83': than he was when he was chief justice '798.28': although the interesting thing for me is '8.28': today you had probably the largest crowd '80.13': Education and I decided I wanted to be a '800.63': when I went back to visit justice '802.43': blackmun after justice rehnquist had '805.7': taken over and became chief justice '807.02': rehnquist everybody loved him as chief '809.09': justice he's thought to be extremely '811.19': fair and balanced and straightforward in '813.74': a way that I think the liberal justices '815.48': had not felt about just as Chief Justice '818.54': burger but when I was there he was still '821.27': a relatively junior justice he was quite '823.37': often in dissent much more so than when '827.39': he became chief justice but very '829.79': friendly very casual his clerks were out '83.759': civil rights lawyer and work for the '832.73': of the building by 6 p.m. '835.27': midnight then after him came justice '838.0': Stevens who was exactly the same you '84.84': n-double-a-cp Legal Defense Fund so that '841.39': know interestingly quirky and always in '846.04': a bowtie he only had two clerks the '848.53': other justices all had four and there's '852.01': very much kind of his own his own person '854.92': and then came justice O'Connor who was '857.02': very junior obviously when I was there '858.61': she was in her I guess her fourth or '859.84': fifth term on the court and you know '864.18': extremely personable she ran a exercise '868.14': class for all the female clerks at 8:00 '87.96': book inspired me to become a lawyer 'no '871.45': a.m. and we were invited to go to it but '873.28': unfortunately justice Blackmun had '874.96': breakfast with all of his clerks at 8:00 '876.67': a.m. so I think we'd managed to get to '878.56': the exercise class two or three days '880.12': when he was out of town but other than '881.68': that we didn't go justice blackmun wrote '889.9': to me one of the more interesting '892.29': decisions and oh honey school yeah do '897.31': you guys ever have any reason to talk '898.81': about that well yes so I think it would '902.65': have been justice Blackmun's it might '907.48': have been his 80th birthday but it was '909.01': one of his big birthdays we're having a '91.32': snow there's a one discussion in that '910.57': clerks reunion and as you know in flood '912.97': against Kuhn which is the best buy in '914.68': entrust case there's this kind of '917.89': passage at the beginning of it that's a '919.84': list of famous baseball players and it '922.0': goes on and on and apparently if he '923.5': started out with about ten of them then '925.27': various people around the building would '926.53': suggest people and then somebody said '927.94': well but if you're going to include you '929.74': know if you're going to include tinker's '931.63': you have to include Evers own occlude '934.0': Evers you have to include chances so '935.2': they just that list kind of expanded and '938.41': expanded and there was a story in the '94.259': book about justice jackson and his then '940.66': Brethren that right after the opinion '944.89': came down somebody said to him how could '947.44': you not include Jimmie Foxx and he said '949.72': Jimmie Foxx was '952.24': and the president no he's not and the '954.77': Justice went back and looked at the list '956.36': and sure enough Jimmie Foxx is not on '957.71': the list and the line in the brethren is '960.77': something like and justice Biden said '962.09': I'll never forgive myself so for his for '965.33': his um for his 80th birthday I think it '968.66': was his 80th we decided we were going to '970.82': get him one of Jimmy Fox's bags and we '973.85': looked into it and we could not find one '975.83': but it turns out that Hilary Jim Bradley '978.05': I think that's what the Louisville '979.22': Slugger company's name is they keep the '98.189': law clerk William Rehnquist and the '981.35': measurements of every player on file for '984.23': their backs and so we went to them and '986.15': we had them replicate one of Jimmy Fox's '990.41': bats and we had it mounted on a plaque '992.57': and on the bottom it just said I will '994.88': never forgive myself '996.32': hav and we gave it to him the clerk saw '999.32': gave it to him for his his his birthday

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